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Today I chat with Joe Costello about the backlash to data centers and why he thinks this national grassroots movement just might be the very first time Americans are engaging in politics in many, many decades. Joe recently published a great book — The Politics of Ape and Machine. Also check out his newsletter: Life in the 21st Century.

I’m making a doc series about the internet called Vampire Valley. The first ep will look at data centers. It should be out closer to May. If you want to help fund this film, give here. Or if you’d like to make a tax-deductible donation, write us at [email protected].

Joe’s been on the show a few times before. Check him here: