SEO used to be the ultimate growth lever—offering massive “free” traffic to marketers who could outsmart the algorithm. But in 2025, it's a different game.

In this episode, I’m joined by Gaetano DiNardi—an SEO strategist with deep experience across B2B SaaS—to unpack how AI is reshaping the search landscape.

We discuss:

• The SEO playbook for 2025
• How zero-click search is impacting real-world traffic
• Why brand is actually a competitive moat for SEO
• How to appear in AI search previews and LLM recommendations
• When a startup should consider SEO
• How to optimize content for the top, middle, and bottom of the funnel

Whether you’re running SEO for an enterprise brand or figuring out your growth strategy as a founder, this conversation will help you recalibrate your approach to search in the age of AI.

Gaetano DiNardi is an SEO expert and principal consultant at Marketing Advice.

He’s spent over a decade in B2B marketing, helping 50+ SaaS companies drive growth and demand. He’s battled in some of the most competitive trenches out there—categories like identity theft, business VoIP, employee monitoring, insider threat detection, LMS software, and more.

You can find him sharing lessons from the field on LinkedIn and Substack.

• [00:00] - Introduction
• [01:24] - Evolution of search over the past 10 years
• [04:09] - Impact of brand on rankings
• [05:36] - Did SEO degrade search quality?
• [11:30] - Impact of zero-click results
• [20:28] - How to get recommended in AI preview
• [34:15] - When should a startup focus on SEO?
• [41:39] - SEO for TOFU, MOFU, and BOFU

• Marketing Advice
• Marketing Advice Substack
• Scrunch AI - Brand monitoring for AI search
• What is Brand Authority and How Is It Calculated? - Moz

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AI agents are everywhere in conversation right now—but what actually makes them work? It’s not just slapping a large language model into a workflow and calling it a day. Under the hood, real agentic systems operate differently. They make decisions. They adapt. They break out of rigid if-this-then-that logic and enter something closer to human judgment.

In this episode, I talk with Daniel Vassilev, co-founder of Relevance AI, a platform purpose-built for building and deploying true agents. We dig deep into how agentic systems are structured—from core instructions to tool orchestration—and how that foundation changes what’s possible. Daniel explains the difference between automation and autonomy in clear, practical terms that any builder, founder, or operator can understand.

We also explore real-world use cases: where agents shine today, where they fall short, and how teams are already using them to 10x output without ballooning headcount. Whether you’re dabbling in LLM workflows or ready to rethink how your company works entirely, this conversation will level up your mental model.

If you’ve been wondering where the hype ends and the real architecture begins—this is the episode.

Daniel Vassilev is Co-Founder and Co-CEO of Relevance AI, a platform to develop commercial-grade multi-agent systems to power your business. With a background in software engineering, he previously created, grew and monetised two apps to a combined 7 million users, reaching #1 on the App Store top free.

• [00:00] - Introduction
• [01:31] - Defining agentic AI
• [03:28] - AI in linear workflows vs. agentic systems
• [08:19] - How agents work under the hood
• [11:24] - Always-on agents
• [13:43] - Selecting the right tasks for agentic AI
• [17:42] - Copilot vs. Autopilot
• [22:44] - Are there tasks we should never delegate to AI?
• [25:03] - Coolest use cases
• [34:30] - Agent memory and continual improvement
• [37:55] - Compounding effect of agent teams
• [41:39] - Relevance the company and platform

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Disclosure: I am using an affiliate link for Relevance AI, which means I earn a small bonus if you sign up through my content.

Not many people make it to VP of Marketing Operations—Kimi Corrigan has done it twice. In this episode, she shares her journey from marketing coordinator to leading marketing ops at companies like Duo Security, Cisco, Wiz, Expel, and DataRobot. We dive into what it really takes to reach VP level, how to position yourself for leadership, and why marketing ops pros should start asking for that title.

Kimi also gets real about the challenges of scaling teams, navigating internal politics, and balancing the tactical with the strategic. We talk about how marketing ops has evolved, the role of data and strategy, and why building strong cross-functional relationships is just as important as knowing your way around a tech stack.

If you're a marketing ops pro wondering what’s next in your career—or how to level up—this one’s for you.

With over 19 years in marketing operations and leadership, Kimi Corrigan thrives on optimizing marketing strategies for efficiency and effectiveness.

Kimi has held marketing ops leadershiop roles at Duo Security, Cisco, Wiz, Expel, and DataRobot.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/kimicorrigan/

• [00:53] - How Kimi got started in marketing operations
• [03:04] - Early-generation marketing automation
• [05:54] - How you know if MOPS is working well
• [10:11] - Navigating people and organizational problems
• [16:51] - Becoming a VP Marketing Ops
• [22:31] - Operations and strategy
• [33:47] - Composable stacks vs. suites
• [37:51] - MOPS team structure
• [39:50] - Planning cycle

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Earlier this month, Scott Brinker and co-author Frans Riemersma released their latest report: Martech for 2025.

It’s 108 pages of dense insights on where Martech is headed—and as you might imagine, it’s largely focused on the core ways AI is re-shaping our discipline.

For nearly 15 years, Scott has chronicled the rise of martech as one of its foremost thought leaders, and it was my pleasure to sit down with him to dig into the conclusions.

Many thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak.

If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform.

You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button.

What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners.

Try Knak

Scott Brinker is VP Platform Ecosystem at HubSpot and previously the co-founder and CTO of ion interactive, a SaaS company that pioneered interactive content for global enterprises and was acquired in 2017.

Since 2008, he’s also run the Chief Marketing Technologist blog, chiefmartec.com, with over 50,000 readers, and creator of the Marketing Technology Landscape, mapping the growth of the marketing technology industry from a few hundred vendors to over 14,000.

He wrote the best-selling book "Hacking Marketing," published by Wiley in 2016, and co-authored of the article "The Rise of the Chief Marketing Technologist" published in Harvard Business Review. He is a frequent keynote speaker at conferences around the world on topics of marketing technology and agile marketing.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/sjbrinker/

• [01:26] - Main take-aways from the report
• [03:31] - How AI can lead to more differentiated marketing
• [06:07] - Efficiency vs. effectiveness from using AI
• [11:33] - AI and the Hype Cycle
• [15:28] - Innovator’s Dilemma and compressed innovation
• [17:16] - Segments of AI innovation
• [21:06] - Innovation challenges fo r legacy incumbents
• [22:56] - Last-mile issues with AI feature quality
• [29:10] - AI agents
• [40:54] - Orchestration layer

• Martech for 2025

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At a recent event with about 300 attendees, today's guest polled the audience and asked how they felt about their ABM performance.

98.5% said they weren't satisfied.

If you've ever built an ABM program, this statistic may not surprise you. My observation is that there are few motions where the hype and the reality are so far apart.

Why is that? What are people getting wrong about ABM? And how do you make it work?

Andrei Zinkevich provides some very concrete and detailed answers to these questions in today's episode.

You'll learn why ABM is more than the typical "display ad + email" recipe that many companies use, why true ABM really doesn't scale in a conventional sense, why you don't need expensive software, and why the most important personalization data comes from the company's own buyers.

Many thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak.

If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform.

You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button.

What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners.

Try Knak

Andrei Zinkevich is co-founder at Fullfunnel.io, an agency that transforms B2B tech and service-based companies from siloed sales and marketing to full-funnel account-based marketing and demand generation.

He's also co-host of the Full-Funnel B2B Marketing Podcast.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/azinkevich/

• [00:00] - Introduction
• [01:43] - Core mistakes of most ABM motions
• [13:47] - The pillars of ABM
• [29:09] - Creating awareness within target accounts
• [36:11] - Moving from awareness to sales discussions

Big thanks goes out UserGems for sponsoring today’s episode. 

We all know running outbound is a huge pain—you need to manage a dozen different tools and data sources and it takes ton of manual work to keep it all going.

UserGems solves that with one platform to capture signals and automate next steps with workflows and AI.

You get a library of the most impactful signals in one place, automated playbooks to make sure your team executes consistently, and Gem AI to create personalized messaging for each prospect. 

So stop wasting time and start targeting your most promising buyers with less headcount. Click the link below for a special offer just for my listeners.

Try UserGems

• ABM and Demand Gen Consulting & Training | FullFunnel.io

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This week we sit down with Mallory Lee, a seasoned RevOps leader whose career spans transformative roles at Pardot, Terminus, and more. Together, we tackle the realities of RevOps today, from debunking the myth that RevOps is the buyer for tech tools to navigating the challenges of unified operations.

Mallory reflects on her time leading teams through the rise of ABM platforms, highlighting lessons learned about hype, strategy, and staying grounded in reality. She also shares her candid perspective on the role of RevOps as the backbone of a company’s strategy. We explore how RevOps can bring alignment across go-to-market teams, why getting the ICP right is a never-ending challenge, and how tech platforms like marketing automation must evolve to keep up with modern demands.

Whether you’re a RevOps practitioner, a SaaS vendor, or just someone who loves geeking out over strategy, this episode is packed with unvarnished truths and actionable insights.

Many thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak.

If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform.

You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button.

What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners.

Try Knak

Mallory Lee is an experienced Revenue Operations professional with 15 years of experience collaborating across the GTM Org and C-Suite to scale B2B SaaS revenue. She's held marketing and RevOps leadership positions at companies like Terminus and Nylas, is a product advisor for RevTech companies, and co-founder of the RevTech Review.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/mallorylee/

• [00:00] - Introduction
• [00:57] - Favourite RevOps career path
• [01:34] - Why you shouldn’t build software for RevOps
• [05:26] - Iterating on your go-to-market message
• [07:50] - Shortcomings of ABM tools
• [16:21] - Signal-based selling and the role of RevOps
• [25:52] - Marketing automation landscape
• [33:58] - Unified RevOps
• [46:09] - Product consulting
• [48:41] - RevTech Review

Marketers: it's planning season. Time to live in your office with the world's biggest spreadsheet and hope that finance doesn't slash your budget.

Planning is tough, but at least you can put your best foot forward with a structured framework that covers all the bases. Our friends at Uptempo have just launched the Blueprint for Marketing Planning.

It's a totally free and comprehensive guide for enterprise marketing teams. You'll get a seven-step planning process that integrates top-down strategy with bottom-up execution and gives you a crystal clear picture of how you'll hit your number.

Get your free copy now:

Uptempo Planning Guide

• The RevTech Review

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One of the most interesting projects I worked on recently was a rebuild of our ABM / outbound / buying signal tech stack at my day job. 

I had bought one of the big legacy ABM platforms a few years ago but had never really seen the value we were hoping for, at least not enough to justify the cost. 

And meanwhile, there’s been this explosion of new vendors in the outbound space—tracking signals, aggregating signals, powering sales workflows, enrichment, AI SDR assistants, and the list goes on. 

I did a really deep evaluation to understand the landscape, and just as I wrapped that up, I sat down with Janis and Philipp who host the RevOps Lab podcast by Weflow.

We had a great discussion and really went into the details on this topic. If you’re thinking about changing up your ABM tech or just want to get oriented on what’s going on here, this is a great episode for you. 

Hope you enjoy it, and check out more episodes from RevOps Lab here: https://www.getweflow.com/revops-lab

--------

Justin Norris, Senior Director of Marketing Ops at 360 Learning and host of the RevOps FM podcast, joins us to dive into outbound strategies and the evolving role of AI in sales. Justin shares his approach to outbound, focusing on experimentation, signals, and leveraging technology to make outbound motions more effective. He also discusses the importance of flexibility in trying new outbound approaches and creating a system where teams can experiment and learn what works best.

• The shift from traditional outbound methods to AI-driven strategies
• How signals play a critical role in outbound success
• The importance of flexibility and experimentation in outbound
• Using tools like MadKudu to streamline outbound workflows
• AI’s role in the future of outbound and sales engagement

• [00:00] Introduction
• [01:17] Justin’s Background and Journey in RevOps
• [03:59] Outbound in the Modern Sales Environment
• [07:31] Signals and AI in Outbound Strategy
• [14:39] Building Flexibility into Outbound Motions
• [19:06] The Future of AI and Sales Engagement
• [24:00] Experimentation and Learning in Outbound
• [35:30] Final Thoughts and Advice

--------

Many thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak.

If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform.

You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button.

What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners.

Try Knak

Big thanks goes out UserGems for sponsoring today’s episode. 

We all know running outbound is a huge pain—you need to manage a dozen different tools and data sources and it takes ton of manual work to keep it all going.

UserGems solves that with one platform to capture signals and automate next steps with workflows and AI.

You get a library of the most impactful signals in one place, automated playbooks to make sure your team executes consistently, and Gem AI to create personalized messaging for each prospect. 

So stop wasting time and start targeting your most promising buyers with less headcount. Click the link below for a special offer just for my listeners.

Try UserGems

Attribution remains one of the hardest challenges in marketing.

It affects literally EVERYTHING: how we’re perceived as a discipline, the strategies we pick, the activities we decide to do—even how we justify our existence.

B2B companies generally use some combination of first touch, last touch, or multi-touch attribution. They may apply those approaches very diligently and rigorously, but few stop to consider whether those methods are valid and sound.

How do we know whether attribution actually predicts anything? Are we just deluding ourselves? And if we tear down MTA, what do we put in its place?

In today's conversation with Pranav Piyush—CEO of Paramark—we discuss how to apply marketing mix modelling and incrementality testing to understand the effectiveness of any channel or asset.

Many thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak.

If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform.

You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button.

What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners.

Try Knak

Pranav Piyush is the Co-Founder and CEO of Paramark, a platform providing marketing measurement and forecasting for fast-growing businesses. Prior to Paramark, he's held growth and marketing leadership roles for companies like Magento, Pilot.com, and BILL.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/pranavp/

• [00:00] - Introduction
• [01:45] - Why multi-touch attribution isn’t valid
• [07:19] - Why MMM overcomes the limitations of MTA
• [11:05] - Correlation vs. causation
• [16:00] - Measuring the impact of content
• [22:47] - How MMM works under the hood
• [27:12] - Running an incrementality test without MMM
• [32:26] - Qualitative insights
• [37:39] - Incrementality deep dive
• [43:07] - Brand
• [49:30] - Paramark

This November, MOps-Apalooza is back in sunny, Anaheim, California, and it's going to be the marketing ops event of the year, packed with hands-on learning from real practitioners.

This is the only truly community-led tech-agnostic MOPS conference out there. It's got the best speakers, the best networking, the best social events, and maybe even a trip to Disneyland. This isn't your 50,000 person tech company conference. It's an intimate gathering of folks who are in the trenches every day.

Registration is capped at 700 attendees, and tickets are going fast.

MOps-Apalooza 2024

• Paramark - Stop Guessing, Start Growing: Marketing Measurement Redefined

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This week we sit down with M.H. Lines, founder of Stack Moxie, to explore how automated testing and monitoring can prevent Martech failures.

M.H. shares insights from her experience as a marketing operations leader and explains why many revenue teams are still vulnerable to unexpected system breakdowns. We dive into the challenges that come with managing complex Martech stacks and why early detection through automated tools is essential for keeping operations running smoothly.

M.H. also reflects on her journey from marketing leadership to founding Stack Moxie, including how she navigates being a venture-backed startup without compromising on her core principles.

Many thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak.

If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform.

You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button.

What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners.

Try Knak

M.H. Lines founded Stack Moxie in 2018 to bridge the gap between engineering and no-code technology for the SaaS economy. She has helped teams in marketing and technology both in-house and as a consultant at companies like Terex, Cohn & Wolfe, Microsoft, Lowes, The Tile Doctor and IBM Watson Health. MH received an undergraduate degree from The Florida State University in Finance, and her MBA from the Foster School of Business, University of Washington with a focus on Technology Management. 

https://www.linkedin.com/in/mhlines/

• [00:00] - [00:00] - Introduction
• [01:49] - Secrets to Gap Folding
• [03:55] - From marketing to MOPS
• [07:54] - MOPS as strategic vs. service provider
• [14:28] - Being wired as a founder
• [17:55] - Working in mega-enterprise
• [22:59] - Observability for MOPS
• [34:35] - Observability and AI
• [39:12] - Being a VC-backed founder

Big thanks goes out UserGems for sponsoring today’s episode. 

We all know running outbound is a huge pain—you need to manage a dozen different tools and data sources and it takes ton of manual work to keep it all going.

UserGems solves that with one platform to capture signals and automate next steps with workflows and AI.

You get a library of the most impactful signals in one place, automated playbooks to make sure your team executes consistently, and Gem AI to create personalized messaging for each prospect. 

So stop wasting time and start targeting your most promising buyers with less headcount. Click the link below for a special offer just for my listeners.

Try UserGems

• The Official Home of Stack Moxie and Revenue Observability

Visit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter:

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This week we chat with Grant Grigorian, a long-time friend of mine and founder of Mogi.ai, to explore whether AI is actually a game-changer for data analytics.

We examine what’s broken in the current landscape of data analytics, the complex world of marketing attribution, and the “last mile of analytics” problem (that is., how do you get business users to actually read and use the analyses you produce).

Then we dive very deep into practical applications of AI for data analysis, looking at concrete examples to highlight the strengths and weaknesses of large language models (LLMs) and contrasting them with traditional machine learning approaches.

In closing, Grant reflects on the future of data careers in the age of AI.

Many thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak.

If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform.

You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button.

What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners.

Try Knak

A startup guy who loves B2B marketing technology, analytics, and AI, Grant Grigorian is a serial entrepreneur. Coming from an operations background, Grant founded Path to Scale, a marketing analytics company, that sold to Engagio (later acquired by DemandBase). Today he's the CEO and co-founder of Mogi, an app that simplifies marketing data analysis by automatically delivering insights and recommendations to your team.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/grantgrigorian/

• [00:00] - Introduction
• [01:06] - What’s broken in data analytics
• [08:45] - Using data to justify marketing’s existence
• [18:15] - Analyzing marketing tactics
• [24:39] - The “last mile of analytics” problem
• [28:56] - Strengths and weaknesses of LLMs to extract insights from data
• [45:49] - Difference between LLMs and machine learning
• [50:37] - The importance of context for AI
• [54:39] - Impact of AI on data careers
• [1:00:07] - Motivations as a repeat founder

Marketers: it's planning season. Time to live in your office with the world's biggest spreadsheet and hope that finance doesn't slash your budget.

Planning is tough, but at least you can put your best foot forward with a structured framework that covers all the bases. Our friends at Uptempo have just launched the Blueprint for Marketing Planning.

It's a totally free and comprehensive guide for enterprise marketing teams. You'll get a seven-step planning process that integrates top-down strategy with bottom-up execution and gives you a crystal clear picture of how you'll hit your number.

Get your free copy now:

Uptempo Planning Guide

• Mogi.ai

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