What if our deepest spiritual experiences aren't found in churches or meditation halls, but in lonely wilderness and abandoned subway tunnels?

In this week's episode, Michael and Jeff explore how their earliest encounters with the divine came through wandering in the woods, which later developed into seeking out the "in-between spaces" of disused urban landscapes. From a transformative 2,200-mile hike on the Appalachian Trail to trespass in the post-apocalyptic spaces of New York City, they reveal how conventional spiritual practices often try to recreate what wilderness and devastation free offer: direct contact with another world, hidden right next to our own. The conversation weaves together their experiences as ministers, meditation practitioners, and eternal seekers, examining the paradox of trying to cultivate through discipline what might be more readily available through surrender.

Read the full show notes on the website. While you're there:

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