In this episode, we explore The City & the City by China Miéville as a powerful metaphor for cognitive blind spots, social conditioning, and spiritual perception. Drawing on Miéville’s layered, dual-city setting—where citizens are trained to “unsee” an overlapping world—we reflect on what it means to overlook not just people and places, but also inner experiences, spiritual insights, and hidden possibilities.

Using the novel as a lens, we talk about religious experience, social breach, the boundaries of acceptable belief, and the psychological costs of seeing too much. We connect these ideas with contemplative practice, direct experience, and what it might take to re-map not just the world around us, but also the worlds within us.

Episode Highlights [00:00:49] Awakening to the Unseen

• Jeff and Michael explore uncanny, synchronistic experiences that seem miraculous in the moment but quickly fade into the background of daily life. They discuss the human brain’s tendency to edit out anomalies that challenge societal norms, likening these moments to dreams that vanish upon waking. They introduce the metaphor of “unseeing” and begin discussing the novel The City and the City by China Miéville, which illustrates how perception can be shaped—and limited—by conditioning.

[00:16:40] The Blind Spot: Fiction as Mirror

• They delve deeper into the metaphor from Miéville’s novel, focusing on the internal experience of the protagonist and how individuals are conditioned to ignore—"unsee"—entire layers of reality. This leads to reflections on the psychological and social threats of “breach,” or stepping outside prescribed norms, and how these threats inhibit spiritual or existential transformation. The conversation expands to consider how these cognitive maps affect both societal structures and personal identity.

[00:27:29] Seeing Beyond Perception

• Jeff and Michael question whether the extreme cognitive blind spots depicted in the novel could exist in real life. They explore historical and anecdotal examples, such as the "invisible ships" story and mass UFO sightings, to suggest that human perception is indeed limited and malleable. They discuss “blindsight,” a neurological phenomenon where people can respond to visual stimuli without consciously seeing them, highlighting how we might unconsciously perceive far more than we acknowledge.

[00:35:05] Spatial Resistance and Reclaiming Reality

• Michael brings in The Invisibles by Grant Morrison and the French Situationists, tying in real-world attempts to resist psychological and spatial confinement. They describe how these thinkers used practices like aimless city wandering to reclaim unseen or abandoned spaces. The conversation shifts toward Occupy Wall Street and how these urban, cultural interventions opened up not just physical but inner freedom. They suggest that exploring hidden cityscapes can mirror breaking free of mental constraints.

[00:44:35] The Third City: Mapping the Possible

• They introduce the concept of a third, mythical city—“Orciny”—from Miéville’s novel as a metaphor for hidden potentiality. This city might not be entirely real or imaginary, but it represents possibility itself. They connect this to spiritual traditions like Christianity, where concepts like the Kingdom of Heaven exist both within and without. This third place exists not as a utopia we reach but as a reality we uncover through inner and outer transformation.

[01:00:01] From Unseeing to Collective Vision

• The episode closes with reflections on how spiritual practice can train us to perceive what we have been conditioned to ignore. Jeff and Michael share personal experiences—like wandering city streets in contemplative states or encountering the inexplicable—and note how even profound memories can fade from awareness. They ask how to move from personal awakening to collective transformation, calling on listeners to share their own experiences and join a community of seekers exploring new spiritual frontiers.

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What did you think about this conversation? Tell us at [email protected] or reach out at: https://www.gospelofdirectexperience.com/#contact.

What is spiritual direction, really? In this episode, Jeff and Michael explore the practice not as a professional technique or spiritual luxury, but as a vital response to living in a fragmented, disenchanted world. Drawing on their own experiences as directors and directees, they talk about the invisible agreements that shape the space, the role of intuition, the balance between presence and expertise, and what it means to create a container where something deeper—call it spirit, God, or presence—can actually show up. Along the way, they touch on remote viewing, trickster dynamics, compensation anxiety, and the loneliness of being an intuitive in a culture that doesn't quite know what to do with people like that.

For anyone curious about the mechanics and mystery of spiritual direction—and how it might matter in this moment—this one's for you.

Gnostic Town Hall:

Thursday, July 10th at 6 PM PT / 9 PM ET

This is your time to share. We want to hear your stories, experiences, and spiritual desires. What are you seeking? What does authentic spiritual practice mean to you? 

To receive the Zoom invite RSVP to [email protected] or use the form on the website.

Episode Highlights: [00:01:35] Discernment Through Direction

• Jeff shares a session with a high‑school senior using prayer, readings, and a random Gospel of Thomas prompt to foster courage, demonstrating how spiritual direction creates a container for confident decision‑making beyond conventional guidance.

[00:07:56] Framing the Sacred Space

• Michael outlines the minimal outer (time, money) and inner (trust, devotion) agreements that define spiritual direction, and they discuss cultural commitment phobia and the challenge of compensating for sacred labor.

[00:19:32] Evocative vs. Directive

• The hosts explore the balance between eliciting the directee’s self‑reflection and gently guiding the process. Michael introduces Metis—intuitive navigation of spirit signals, body cues, and synchronicities—and unpacks countertransference in the director‑directee dynamic.

[00:28:59] Excavating a Lost Culture

• Jeff likens modern spiritual seekers to shamans walking through the charred remains of indigenous traditions. He reflects on recovering buried inner gifts and the vulnerability of reclaiming mystical identity in a dismissive culture.

[00:37:56] Essential Practice Defined

• Michael offers a definition: spiritual direction is making space for an unseen source striving to emerge. Ignoring that reality risks individual and cultural harm, framing the practice as vital amidst the collapse of materialistic worldviews.

[00:52:38] The Remote‑Viewing Analogy

• Drawing on CIA psychic protocols, Jeff compares the director to a handler who asks precise, intuition‑unlocking questions. They discuss how this double‑blind approach mirrors tuning into and articulating the directee’s inner experience.

[01:04:38] Integration & New Containers

• The hosts examine how directors must balance open receptivity to spirit’s signals with pastoral training to reintegrate insights into life. They liken this to finding new “skins” capable of holding transformative “new wine.”

[01:10:28] Closing Definition & Call to Practice

• Michael distills spiritual direction as recognizing a deeper reality and inviting it into shared space. He warns that neglecting this sacred container can unleash destructive forces, urging listeners to relearn ancient practices of bearing witness to spirit.

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What did you think about this conversation? Tell us at [email protected] or reach out at: https://www.gospelofdirectexperience.com/#contact.

Welcome to our very first live AMA episode—unscripted and full of spirit. Listeners showed up with real questions about prayer, mystical experience, cryptids, and the strange space where the psychological meets the spiritual.

We talked about what it means to pray when God no longer fits, how to trust the knowledge of the heart, why some people encounter the sacred and others don’t, and whether Bigfoot might just be a messenger from beyond (seriously).

It was thoughtful, honest, sometimes strange, and fun! Thanks to everyone who joined us live—and if you missed it, we hope to see you at the next one.

Episode Highlights

[00:01:43] Intro & Invocation

• Jeff and Michael reflect on why they started the podcast and what it means to be in real dialogue. Michael offers a short prayer, inviting whatever spirit needs to show up to be part of the conversation.

[00:04:05] Barbara’s Question: Heart, Mind & Embodiment

• Barbara asks whether putting the heart first in spiritual practice leaves out the mind and body. The group explores what balance really means in a culture so often out of balance itself.

[00:21:13] Rusty’s Question: How Do I Pray Now?

• Rusty shares that his image of God has changed—and he’s not sure how to pray anymore. What follows is an exploration of prayer as presence, practice, memory, and sometimes just a single word spoken in the dark.

[00:42:22] Jacqui’s Question: Is It Real, or Just My Brain?

• Jacqui asks whether mystical or psychedelic experiences are glimpses of something beyond—or just the brain misfiring. The conversation turns to doubt, wonder, and how meaning sometimes survives even when certainty doesn’t.

[00:52:37] Anthony’s Question: Cryptids & Contact

• Anthony wants to know when we’re going to talk more about Bigfoot and the weird stuff. The answer is: now. Jeff and Michael reflect on why stories of the strange matter—and how the sacred sometimes shows up where we least expect it.

[01:04:30] Katrina’s Question: Why Do Some People Experience God?

• The group reflects on why some people feel a strong pull toward spiritual experience, while others don’t. The conversation touches on temperament, culture, grace, and the freedom not to need what others seek.

[01:18:13] Cliff’s Question: Are Dreams Just Chimneys?

• Cliff shares a Jesuit’s take that dreams are interesting but not necessarily meaningful—that they may simply vent unresolved thoughts. The group explores whether dreams might offer more than metaphor, and how meaning can emerge even if you don’t take them literally.

[01:23:55] Closing Reflections

• A few closing words of thanks and encouragement. It wasn’t a typical podcast episode, and that was the point. The invitation remains open—to bring your questions, your story, and yourself.

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What did you think about this conversation? Tell us at [email protected] or reach out at: https://www.gospelofdirectexperience.com/#contact.

In this powerful and personal episode, we sit down with Emma Mcilroy—queer feminist, immigrant, entrepreneur, and CEO of Wildfang—for a conversation that dives deep into faith, identity, capitalism, and surviving life's darkest valleys. Emma shares her journey of reconciling her sexuality with her faith, the near-death experience surrounding the birth of her son, and how a private, hard-won relationship with God became her unshakable bridge. We explore what it means to wrestle with faith, lead with integrity, and hold onto Spirit in a world that often demands compromise.

Episode Highlights

[00:03:35] Coming Out, Falling Apart, and Finding the Bridge

• Emma reflects on immigrating to the US, falling in love with a woman and coming out, and feeling her world fall down all around her. She turns inward and begins a one-on-one wrestling match with God. Her image of faith as a fragile-seeming rope bridge that somehow holds despite appearances becomes a central metaphor of the episode.

[00:17:26] Birth, Breakdown, and a Waiting Room Miracle

• Emma recounts her traumatic childbirth story—HELLP syndrome, a near-stroke, and a harrowing return to the hospital just days after giving birth. Faith, Emma concludes, isn’t about having answers. It’s about being open, vulnerable, and present in the moment when everything falls apart—and trusting that something or someone will meet you there.

[00:30:33] Capitalism and Christianity: Leading Without Losing Your Soul

• Emma explores how her faith shapes her work as a CEO in a profit-driven world. From donating over a million dollars to fostering authentic workplace relationships, she strives to let her values guide her leadership. Still, she confesses the tension between her ethics and the demands of the system she operates within.

[00:47:35] Parenting, Service, and the Desire for More

• As a new mom, Emma wrestles with how to raise her son with openness and integrity while still holding onto the faith that has carried her through. She speaks candidly about wanting to deepen her life of service and how vulnerability—not certainty—opens the door to transformation, connection, and peace.

 

Two Special Events—Join Us!

We’re four months into The Gospel of Direct Experience podcast, and we’re so grateful for your support—thank you for listening, reviewing, and reaching out. It means the world to us.

This podcast isn’t just about sharing our thoughts—it’s about building community. So, we’re launching two live events to connect more deeply with you.

Event #1: Live AMA (Ask Me Anything) Thursday, June 12th at 6 PM PT / 9 PM ET

Join us live on Zoom for a laid-back Q&A session. Ask Michael, me, or both of us anything—about the podcast, spirituality, your own journey, or whatever’s on your heart.

RSVP by emailing us at [email protected].

Can’t make it? Email us your question by Wednesday, June 11th, and we might include it when we release the AMA as an episode later in June.

Event #2: Gnostic Town Hall Thursday, July 10th at 6 PM PT / 9 PM ET

This is your time to share. We want to hear your stories, experiences, and spiritual desires. What are you seeking? What does authentic spiritual practice mean to you? 

RSVP the same way: [email protected].

This is just the beginning—we hope to see you soon.

Continue the Conversation

What did you think about this episode? Tell us at [email protected] or by visiting our website. While you're there:

• Sign up for our mailing list to keep up to date on the all the latest from us
• Contact us about your own experiences, questions, comments

 

What if the path to salvation isn’t belief—but integration? 

Building off our last episode, Jeff and Michael unpack a mysterious saying from the Gospel of Thomas about making “the two one,” and explore how ancient Gnostic wisdom speaks to our divided modern selves. Jeff shares a concluding dream that becomes a portal into the deeper meaning of inner and outer reconciliation, while Michael reflects on the radical claim that knowing yourself might be the same as knowing God.

Episode Highlights

[00:01:54] Gnosticism & Direct Experience

Jeff and Michael introduce the Gnostic theme of integrating opposites, grounding it back in Jeff’s dreams from last time of the three-fingered hand and "coming out" as "bi."

[00:10:15] The Two Become One

Exploring Saying 22 from Thomas, we interpret Jesus’ teaching as a call to dissolve dualities—child and mother, inner and outer—as the path to divine unity. We begin to reframe “salvation” as a radical transformation of consciousness.

[00:18:44] The Kingdom Within

Coming back again to  saying 3 prompts a discussion on knowing God through knowing oneself. We argue that true poverty is alienation from the self—not lack of belief.

[00:25:57] Dream of the Child

Jeff shares a dream in which a radiant child leads him out of prison. The dream becomes a metaphor for the relationship between the true self and the persona.

[00:36:22] Beyond World-Denying

We push back on the claim that Gnosticism rejects the world, arguing instead for balance—recovering the forgotten inner dimension of reality. 

[00:45:26] Persona & Pastoring

Jeff reflects on how his pastoral persona outgrew its roots in the inner life. They draw parallels with how Christianity itself has lost touch with its source.

[00:53:29] The Hidden Light

A random Gospel of Thomas verse sparks an honest exchange about what we’ve kept hidden. Michael confesses his mystical identification with the Logos; Jeff discloses his rejection of a sky-God. Both commit to naming the truth more fully.

Two Special Events—Join Us!

We’re four months into The Gospel of Direct Experience podcast, and we’re so grateful for your support—thank you for listening, reviewing, and reaching out. It means the world to us.

This podcast isn’t just about sharing our thoughts—it’s about building community. So, we’re launching two live events to connect more deeply with you.

Event #1: Live AMA (Ask Me Anything) Thursday, June 12th at 6 PM PT / 9 PM ET

Join us live on Zoom for a laid-back Q&A session. Ask Michael, me, or both of us anything—about the podcast, spirituality, your own journey, or whatever’s on your heart.

RSVP by emailing us at [email protected].

Can’t make it? Email us your question by Wednesday, June 11th, and we might include it when we release the AMA as an episode later in June.

Event #2: Gnostic Town Hall Thursday, July 10th at 6 PM PT / 9 PM ET

This is your time to share. We want to hear your stories, experiences, and spiritual desires. What are you seeking? What does authentic spiritual practice mean to you? 

RSVP the same way: [email protected].

This is just the beginning—we hope to see you soon.

Continue the Conversation

Visit our website. While you're there:

• Sign up for our mailing list to keep up to date on the all the latest from us
• Contact us about your own experiences, questions, comments

What if the spiritual texts we grew up with only told part of the story?

In this episode, Jeff and Michael explore the discovery of the Nag Hammadi Library—a collection of ancient, long-buried texts that include radically different teachings attributed to Jesus, including the enigmatic Gospel of Thomas. These writings challenge many assumptions of mainstream Christianity and open a doorway into a spirituality centered on inner knowing, direct experience, and the integration of what is within and what is without. Then Jeff shares a recent dream that unexpectedly mirrors the themes of the Gospel of Thomas, leading into a conversation about what it means to know yourself—and how that knowing might be the very key to transformation.

Episode Highlights [00:02:45] Discovering the Nag Hammadi Library

• Michael introduces the strange and mysterious discovery of the Nag Hammadi texts in 1945 Egypt—and how they ended up in Carl Jung’s hands.

[00:16:48] The Inner and the Outer

• Jeff and Michael begin unpacking a core theme of the Gospel of Thomas: that the Kingdom is both within and beyond us. They explore how this insight contrasts with—and deepens—mainstream Christianity.

[00:28:45] Suppression, Not Survival

• A historical dive into how the Gnostic tradition wasn’t forgotten or lost—it was actively suppressed. What might Christianity have become if these texts had remained in circulation?

[00:33:35] Spooky Timing & the Modern World

• The Nag Hammadi texts reemerge into history just months after Hiroshima, alongside the rise of quantum physics and the first reported UFOs. Coincidence—or synchronicity?

[00:43:33] A Dream of Inner Revelation

• Jeff shares a powerful dream that surfaced personal and symbolic dimensions of integration, identity, and coming to know oneself.

[00:50:10] Interpreting the Dream & Returning to the Gospel

• The conversation turns toward Jung, MBTI types, and the deep need for balance between the inner world and the outer persona. Sayings from Thomas come alive as personal spiritual instruction.

[01:07:01] Final Reflections

• Michael brings the episode to a close by linking the Nag Hammadi Library’s reappearance to a deeper cultural and spiritual reckoning still unfolding today. 

Two Special Events—Join Us!

Event #1: Live AMA (Ask Me Anything)

Thursday, June 12th at 6 PM PT / 9 PM ET

Join us live on Zoom for a laid-back Q&A session. Ask Michael, me, or both of us anything—about the podcast, spirituality, your own journey, or whatever’s on your heart.

RSVP by emailing us at [email protected].

Can’t make it? Email us your question by Wednesday, June 11th, and we might include it when we release the AMA as an episode later in June.

Event #2: Gnostic Town Hall

Thursday, July 10th at 6 PM PT / 9 PM ET

This is your time to share. We want to hear your stories, experiences, and spiritual desires. What are you seeking? What does authentic spiritual practice mean to you?

RSVP the same way: [email protected].

This is just the beginning—we hope to see you soon.

— Jeff & Michael

Continue the Conversation

Visit our website. While you're there:

• Sign up for our mailing list to keep up to date on the all the latest from us
• Contact us about your own experiences, questions, comments

 

What if a long-dead painter could reach across time to guide your spiritual awakening? In this episode, Jeff shares the astonishing true story of how George Inness—a 19th-century landscape artist and mystic—emerged as a living spirit guide in his life. From a chance encounter at a museum to a series of visionary dreams filled with barns, handprints, and transfigured light-beings, Jeff and Michael explore how spirit invites us to see beyond appearances, surrender our over-love of knowledge, and walk the ancient, living path of direct experience. This is an episode about listening deeply, following the signs, and allowing Spirit to lead the way.

Episode Highlights [00:00:47] Introduction: Bringing Gnostic Texts into Real Life

• Jeff reflects on the show’s evolution toward the personal and devotional, emphasizing the need to live these spiritual insights rather than just study them.

[00:03:05] A Spirit Encounter at the Montclair Art Museum

• Jeff shares the powerful experience of being arrested by George Inness’ words—“Knowledge must bow to spirit”—and the unfolding realization that Inness had something vital to teach him.

[00:08:11] Bypassing the Theopoetic Middlemen

• Jeff critiques the academic appropriation of theopoetics and makes the case for going straight to the poets and artists themselves—those who embody mystery, not just define it.

[00:14:31] Direct Experience and the Mission of Art

• Jeff reads Inness’s reflections on memory, beauty, and art’s mission to reveal the unseen—sparking connections to spiritual practice and preaching.

[00:19:43] Dream One: Entering the Haunted Barn

• Jeff recounts a vivid dream where a mysterious three-fingered hand points to a dark doorway and an optical device, leading to a transformation.

[00:27:18] Dream Analysis: The Role of Vision and Witnessing

• Jeff and Michael explore the symbolism of the optical device, the three-fingered hand, and the barn owner’s transfiguration—uncovering profound insights about spiritual sight and bearing witness to change.

[00:39:59] Deeper Symbolism: The Barn, the Handprints, and the Call to Ministry

• Jeff recalls that the summer he first heard his call to ministry, he was living in a barn—and left his handprint on its wall. The dream becomes a bridge across time, connecting his present awakening with his spiritual origins.

[00:43:53] Confirming the Connection: Finding George Inness' Barn

• Jeff shares the culmination of his search for George Inness’ physical traces—finding the land where Inness’s farmhouse and barn once stood, affirming the deep personal connection to his spirit guide.

Connect

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• Sign up for our mailing list to keep up to date on the all the latest from us
• Contact us about your own experiences, questions, comments

 

What if waking up isn’t a single breakthrough moment—but a layered, looping journey through insight, fear, wonder, and mystery? In this episode, we explore the complex terrain of spiritual awakening through dreams, false awakenings, mystical encounters, and moments of terrifying clarity. From Michael’s lucid Spirit Train dream to Jeff’s powerful visitation from a fierce divine feminine presence, we ask: What does it really mean to wake up—is it a one time affair or is it a journey, a process?

We dig into the paradoxes of awakening: how it can feel ecstatic or annihilating, grounding or destabilizing—and how most of us live in the space between. Along the way, we talk about Kundalini energy, inflation, ontological shock, the fear of God, and the danger of mistaking glimpses of the Real for the whole story.

This episode is about learning to live with grace and curiosity in the middle ground—where waking up is not an arrival, but a way of being.

Episode Highlights

[00:00:49] Waking Up on the Spirit Train

• To get us going, we review Michael's "Spirit Train" dream and the multiple instances of "waking up" within it? The lines between dreaming, waking, illusion, and reality are appropriately blurred. Is waking up a one-time affair or does it transition us between states?

[00:06:57] Red Goddess Kundalini

• Jeff recounts a dream in which he met a goddess who tried to awaken and/or annihilate him and he had to run like hell to save himself. Do we really want the awakening we think we want? Do we really know what it will cost us?

[00:15:49] Terror and Illumination

• Is waking up always "good?" When it's "bad," is that always bad? Once again we trace the line that runs at once both through terror and illumination.

[00:27:08] Love Has Won: The Cult of Mother God Docuseries Discussion

• Can waking up lead to trouble in your life? We discuss the docuseries Love Has Won: The Cult of Mother God which you can watch on Max.

[00:42:02] The Profound Middle Ground

• Can we both awake and embedded in the dream at the same time? In that in-between what might be possible?

[00:52:07] The Sea of Consciousness

• Endeavoring to treat everything with dignity, respect, and love in late-stage matter deconstruction.

[01:01:07] The Perception of the Heart and Loving the Middle Ground

• Do we wake up in the head? Or in the heart?

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• Sign up for our mailing list to keep up to date on the all the latest from us
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Episode Artwork: Asleep, Awake by Helen Armstrong

What happens when the walls of traditional religion crumble, and all that’s left is raw, unfiltered awe? In this episode we sit down with John Hamilton—UCC minister, musician, and author of the excellent theological memoir Honest to God. Guided by the book, the three of us dive into the chaos and beauty of spiritual awakening in an era of collapsing institutions.

John Hamilton was born into a spirited Irish-American family of singers and storytellers. Breaking with his strict Catholic upbringing, he embarked on a career in music that immersed him in the colorful but dangerous world of drugs, alcohol, and rock clubs. A debilitating onset of panic disorder abruptly halted his musical pursuits, propelling him into the business world where he thrived as a creative director in advertising. Despite professional success, Hamilton's persistent quest for the transcendent led him to seminary and, eventually, to two decades of parish work as a pastor. His most recent book, Honest To God, chronicles the collapse of mainstream Christianity, his loss of connection to the transcendent and his walk into the wilderness to search for it again. He maintains an active presence on Substack, has 25,000 followers on Spotify, and another book, “The Weight of Snow” in the works for 2026.

If you’ve ever felt the holy ground shake beneath your feet or wondered how to find meaning when the old gods fall, this conversation is for you.

Episode Highlights [00:04:50] Rock & Roll—The Hot Wire to God

• A conversation on music and spirit. If you're a rock musician, why be a minister at all?

[00:12:35] Awe

• A reading from the book gets into one of the major themes of the book—awe, the relationship of one's seminary training to a one's experience of awe, John's experience of staring into the abyss during his wife's medial emergency, and the negative or apophatic approach to God.

[00:26:15] Nontheism

• Another reading from the book gets us into a discussion of John's identity as a nontheist (as opposed to an atheist), God's identity and nature, prayer, miracles, and direct spiritual experience.

[00:41:56] The Collapse of Mainstream Christianity

• We talk about John's experience closing churches, the worldview collapse the accompanies the collapse of the Church, a reading from the book about John's earliest memory (of a church burning down), and what could or should replace the loss of churches.

[01:02:20] Searching for a God We Will Never Find

• A final, triumphant reading captures the heart of the book and leads us into a concluding discussion of why Jeff left his last church position in September 2024.

Get the Book

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What did you think about this conversation? Tell us at [email protected] or reach out at: https://www.gospelofdirectexperience.com/#contact.

What happens when you call on Jesus in an ancient Vedic fire ritual? Will he show up? How? In this episode, Michael shares his experience with Homa, a Vedic fire ceremony, and what happened when he decided to dedicate it to Jesus. The result was an unfolding series of synchronicities—stretching across years, continents, and eventually even into the Spirit Train dream—culminating in a moment of undeniable presence. Meanwhile, we explore the Chapel Perilous, the threshold between belief and madness, where meaning breaks through in ways that can’t be ignored.

We briefly summarize the Spirit Train dream at the top of the episode, but if you haven't listened to it yet, you might want to start two episodes back: All Aboard the Spirit Train

This is one of the most powerful stories we’ve told yet. Join us as we wrestle with what it means to see, to trust, and to step into the fire.

Read the time-stamped Episod Highlights, get recomendations on where to stay in Italy, and read the Works Cited in the full show notes on the website. While you're there:

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• Read the latest blog post: Waking Up in the Coffin: A Calvinist Childhood and the Imagination for Evil