Have you heard plenty of Shoptalk event and trend recaps by now? Did any of those dig into why those trends matter and what they really mean for the retail industry? Sometimes you just need to put four Top Retail Influencers into one recording session and let them talk about what those trends make them feel about the industry to get to the heart of the matter. And maybe ‘heart’ is what it’s truly all about – because retail is a people business.

It’s Part 4 of our #ShoptalkLive podcast cross-over series with This Week in Innovation and special guest host Jeff Roster, but not quite recorded live and in-person at Shoptalk this time! Yes, there’s a story to that and you’ll find out in this episode where Jeff and regular host Ricardo Belmar are joined by retail legends, Vicki Cantrell, CEO of Vendors in Partnership, LLC, and Ron Thurston, author of Retail Pride, host of the Retail in America podcast and tour, and Co-Founder of OSSY.

In this episode, Jeff, Ricardo, Vicki, and Ron discover the true meaning of Shoptalk this year – people and relationships – because in the end they realize that the experience is the relationship in retail and how this is NOT the year of shiny objects! 

Plus, we’re now standing at number 19 on the Feedspot Top 60 Best Retail podcasts list – if you enjoy our show, please consider giving us a 5-star review in Apple Podcasts! With your help, we’ll move our way up the Top 20! https://blog.feedspot.com/retail_podcasts/

Meet your regular hosts, helping you cut through the clutter in retail & retail tech:

Ricardo Belmar, a RETHINK Retail Top Retail Influencer for 2023, 2022 & 2021, RIS News Top Movers and Shakers in Retail for 2021, advisory council member at George Mason University’s Center for Retail Transformation, and director partner marketing advisor for retail & consumer goods at Microsoft.

Casey Golden, CEO of Luxlock, and RETHINK Retail Top Retail Influencer for 2023. Obsessed with the customer relationship between the brand and the consumer. After a career on the fashion and supply chain technology side of the business, now slaying franken-stacks and building retail tech!

Includes music provided by imunobeats.com, featuring E-Motive, and Overclocked, from the album Beat Hype, written by Hestron Mimms, published by Imuno. 

The Retail Razor Show

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Host → Ricardo Belmar,

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Co-host → Casey Golden,

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Read my comments on RetailWire - https://bit.ly/RWCasey

TRANSCRIPT

S2E12d ShoptalkLive - TRI Friends Chat

[00:00:00] Show Intro 

[00:00:20] Casey Golden: Hello Retail Razor Show listeners and viewers. Welcome to retail's favorite podcast for product junkies, commerce technologists, and everyone else in retail and retail tech alike. I'm your co-host, Casey Golden.

[00:00:33] Ricardo Belmar: And I'm your host, Ricardo Belmar. Welcome to part four and the final installment in our Shop Talk Live crossover event with Jeff Roster and This Week In Innovation podcast.

[00:00:44] Casey Golden: Wow. Are we really at the last one? This has been so much fun, so many incredible conversations and takeaways. Does it really have to end?

[00:00:53] Ricardo Belmar: Well, yeah, it does. It does. But we have saved what I think is one of our best, if not the [00:01:00] best episode of the season for the last one.

[00:01:02] Casey Golden: Okay. Wait a minute, you've, you've called every episode, the best episode of the season as being the one from N R F where you and Jeff sat down with Vicki Cantrell and Ron Thurston at the end of the Super Saturday retail ROI event. You know that 10 minute chat that turned into 50 minutes?

[00:01:21] Ricardo Belmar: Well, okay. Yeah, I, I did say that I, I suppose I, I guess maybe I have said that may, maybe more than once, but funny you should mention that episode because this episode, our final Shop Talk crossover podcast is also a conversation Jeff and I have with Ron and Vicki. , it's, think of it as a repeat or a follow up, if you will, of that NRF discussion.

[00:01:42] And I have to say, it's this sort of conversation that, you know, makes me so excited to be part of this industry. I'm so thankful for relationships like these with Jeff, Ron, Vicki, and so many others including you, Casey. It's just unlike any other industry I know.

[00:01:55] Casey Golden: Aw, you're like a teddy bear. It's so true though. [00:02:00] Nothing lights a fire like passion. And I know now why you've been testing this recording for the last three episodes but at the risk of being a downer here, if I'm not mistaken, you guys had some challenges making this happen.

[00:02:15] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah, we did, we did. It turns out we only had one option to record this live and in person at Shop Talk, and that was at the end of the day on, I think it was the second to last day of the show. And it was right when Shop Talk had scheduled a happy hour on the show floor. Rethink Retail was kind enough to agree to let us use their booth space to record.

[00:02:35] So Jeff and I get there to set up our equipment, right, and guess what happens?

[00:02:39] Casey Golden: The equipment broke.

[00:02:41] Ricardo Belmar: Okay, good guess, but no, not quite. just as we were about to plug everything in, suddenly loud music starts blaring over the speakers all over the expo hall. You figure it's happy hour right. So of course Shop Talk decided we all needed some high energy music to go with our free drinks.

[00:02:56] Casey Golden: Oh my God, you're kidding me. What, what'd you [00:03:00] guys end up doing?

[00:03:00] Ricardo Belmar: Well, we, we looked at each other and thought about what any experienced podcaster would do to, to compensate for that. And then instead we immediately decided that it was hopeless and we just needed to cancel the whole thing and reschedule.

[00:03:11] Casey Golden: Grab a beer.

[00:03:13] Ricardo Belmar: Exactly. 

[00:03:16] Now, of course, I, I did say this was the only time we could work it out during the show, so we ended up scheduling a recording session remotely for about a week after Shop Talk.

[00:03:24] So technically this episode is not, live and in-person recorded bet it is still recorded, so we're gonna go with that. But it does have the added benefit that, you know, we've got full video for this episode on our YouTube channel. So you actually get to watch us have the discussion, not just listen to it.

[00:03:41] Casey Golden: All right. All right. Well, that's a pretty good trade off. I must say and you know, we just kind of upped the ante here. So sad you guys couldn't make it work in person. Hope there was some good drinks. But I mean, come on, of course you'd expect good music to go with happy hour, [00:04:00] right? I mean,

[00:04:01] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.

[00:04:02] Casey Golden: you kind of expect like show closes, party's on, right.

[00:04:07] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah, I guess we should have thought of that. We should have thought of that, I suppose. But you know, like, like I said, we're, we're, had we been experienced podcasters or not the you know, budding experts, we all aspire to be here. We might have planned for that, but I, I think this worked out in the end.

[00:04:22] Either way.

[00:04:23] Casey Golden: Well, let's not waste any more time. Let's get straight to the recording. Not live and in person at Shop Talk, but still a Shop Talk recap with you, Jeff Roster, Vicki Cantrell and Ron Thurston.

[00:04:38] The TRI Friends Chat

[00:04:38] Ricardo Belmar: ​Welcome everybody. I'm Ricardo Belmar, host of the Retail Razor Show, and I'm here with a good friend, Jeff Roster, host of This Week In Innovation. And you guessed it. This is the last episode in our Shop Talk related series. And I, if you're [00:05:00] watching us on video, yes. You may have noticed we are not live at Shop Talk right now.

[00:05:05] We, we much like, one of the episodes, if you caught our crossover at NRF where we had some issues and couldn't quite make it work out. We sort of had a little bit of some coordination challenges this time. So we're catching up with each other after the event, but we're here to talk about our, our thoughts on the shop talk event.

[00:05:24] Jeff, how you doing today?

[00:05:25] Jeff Roster: You know, Ricardo, I'm doing fantastic. I had a good week's sleep and a lot of time to, to think about what we're gonna talk about today. So I, I'm actually kind of thinking this is really a cool vibe. Maybe we should do this on every show, like do the final wrap up, show off-premise, two, three days down, down the road couple, you know, a couple good night's sleep.

[00:05:43] So I, I'm excited to get into this conversation.

[00:05:45] Ricardo Belmar: Sounds good. Well, let me go ahead and introduce our, familiar guests. we have with us today, we've got Vicki Cantrell and Ron Thurston. Vicki, Ron, how are you two doing?

[00:05:55] Vicki Cantrell: Great. Very nice to be uh, on a Friday entering in and, and it [00:06:00] did take a l uh, like it took a while to get over this trip, like physically, and so I'm all back. So happy to be here with you guys.

[00:06:11] Ron Thurston: Yeah. Yeah, me too. Thank you Ricardo and Jeff. It's a, it's a pleasure. I, I felt trapped inside Mandalay Bay with no sun and nothing, and I was happy to come back to the west coast on the tour and be in San Diego because 

[00:06:25] Ricardo Belmar: yeah.

[00:06:25] Ron Thurston: I needed some fresh air

[00:06:27] Ricardo Belmar: It, it kind of, it's kind of funny. I, I noticed on the last day I was there thinking, wait a minute, I, have I seen the outside for the last few days since I've been here? Or have I not even seen daylight?

[00:06:38] Jeff Roster: I actually one, one trip over, cause I stayed at the Luxor I, one trip over, I specifically went outside and went all the way around because I thought, you know, I probably at some point should literally have fresh air. So I 

[00:06:48] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:06:49] Jeff Roster: force my way outside.

[00:06:51] Ricardo Belmar: Right, right,

[00:06:52] Vicki Cantrell: ahh, Vegas.

[00:06:53] Ricardo Belmar: Yep. 

[00:06:54] Ron Thurston: Vegas. 

[00:06:55] 4 Shoptalk Themes

[00:06:55] Ricardo Belmar: love it. Gotta love it. Well, so, so let, let me start by, before we [00:07:00] jump into our, our conversation here, let, let's kind of start with summarizing four key themes that shop talk themselves, the shop talk content team put out there at the end of the show is what they felt were the four main themes of the show.

[00:07:12] and the first is what they termed as seamless stores, which I like to think of this as both a recognition that stores are a focal point of energy right now in, in retail, and that it is, it's maybe a way to think of this as the, the successor to omnichannel and maybe we put that term to rest. so that's theme one.

[00:07:30] Theme two is about enabling workers and store teams which is a theme I like to see. And. I'm sure we'll get into this, but we, we talked about that at our, at our conversation, N R F and what we had hoped to hear then about how we're better enabling store teams. So that was theme two. 

[00:07:46] Theme three is shopper engagement. And this is sort of a, a, a catchall, I think that covers all the interesting technologies that we're all hearing about and talking about now that's impacting the customer experience in, in any channel, whether it's in stores, digital, [00:08:00] wherever it may be. 

[00:08:01] And then the fourth one which might actually be the most interesting of the four, Shop Talk calls this changing relationships and it, it's a reference to how on, on the one hand, you have retailers becoming more and more like a technology provider in that they're now offering services. To other retailers and other brands, and that could be you know, one of my favorite topics that I like to remind Jeff about every chance I get, and that's retail media networks.

[00:08:28] it may be, yep. It may be things like GAP offering their logistics network as a service to other retailers. and it, but it really, I, I think. I, I find this an interesting one because maybe Shop Talk is onto something there thinking that the business is changing because of how the relationships are changing from the way they have been in, you know, for, for decades now.

[00:08:49] so let's, let's start from there.

[00:08:53] Vicki Cantrell: I um, you know, I love those four themes because they aren't kind of broken out into [00:09:00] technology. And if you remember we talked in January, Ron had such a good point in that freewheeling conversation that we had was about how do we respect the stores given what they're going through and how do we get them to do less and understand what their challenges are and because the customer is back in the stores.

[00:09:22] It's a Relationship Show About People

[00:09:22] Vicki Cantrell: And, and when we think about that uh, it felt there was a lot of content to address those things in while we were at Shop Talk, but I'd like to kind of flip that a little bit and talk about those four themes. And what I felt while I was there, I felt like it was, I have no other way to describe it other than it felt like it was a relationship show.

[00:09:47] Uh, for me, the connections, everybody talked, no matter who you met on the floor, in a booth, at a party, wherever you were, it started with the human connection [00:10:00] and it no matter what and it way more time was spent on the human aspects and the human connection before it actually turned into a potential business connection.

[00:10:14] So it felt very right. It felt very relationship focused. And when you think about that, how it relates to those themes is so true. The relationship with the customer, the relationship and partnerships, it just felt very connected and human. And I love the way they're kind of mapping this out.

[00:10:37] Ron Thurston: I'll, I'll jump in. I, I agree with you, Vicki. I think it's also the space being like smaller than an N R F. I mean, I think Vicky, you and I saw each other like three times a day 

[00:10:47] Vicki Cantrell: Yeah. 

[00:10:48] Ron Thurston: And you know, like walking by, it's a, it's a high five, it's a hug. Oh, have you met this person? Oh my God. Like, let's get a picture.

[00:10:55] Like, so I think that there's, there's power in the scale of, [00:11:00] of the conference at the same time, but as my first experience at Shop Talk, I would say retail is a relationship business and, and because coming from the stores, that's how you build a business. It isn't just about product and, and a beautiful space.

[00:11:18] It is very much about relationships with each other. First, leading a team, it's relationships with the customers. It's with your corporate business partners, it's with your vendors. It's with your mall or your landlords, like, everything we do is about relationships and those relationships have, you know, are so important to me.

[00:11:39] But when you, there was a sense of pride almost in our industry as much as we all have questions and maybe some, um, pressure to deliver. I, I felt a sense of pride about the general retail industry at, at a whole, and that, that felt really good to me. I left [00:12:00] on such a high because of that.

[00:12:02] Vicki Cantrell: I love that. I love that. And, and I didn't realize that was your first

[00:12:09] Ron Thurston: It was my first, 

[00:12:10] Vicki Cantrell: I had no idea. Oh my gosh.

[00:12:14] Ricardo Belmar: How many shop talks have you been to Vicki?

[00:12:15] Vicki Cantrell: uh, I've actually, I would say I missed one. I haven't gone to the ones outside of Las Vegas, but I missed, I was at the first one and last year and this year, so I would say at least three, potentially four.

[00:12:31] Ricardo Belmar: Okay, It was my second shop talk I got last year was my first one. Jeff, this, was this your first 

[00:12:35] Jeff Roster: No, this is my first one too. And what I think was interesting about the relationship angle, and I've, I've always, you know, preached that from the get-go. Listen, from a tech perspective, it's a relationship business. It's as big as Mayberry. And there's, you know, sheriff Andy, and, and you know, I mean, do not screw around in the industry, it's 5 trillion, but it is, is as big as Mayberry and it's, it's really cool to hear that. I also wonder, and [00:13:00] this is 180 degrees shift for me I've never, ever, never, ever been a fan of having anything in Vegas. I just think it gets, the shows tend to get lost. I think you have the, the bleed off and the old days.

[00:13:10] It quite frankly used to be, I thought, fairly inappropriate. B because some of the, you know, the costumes and all that sort of stuff, but I tell you it was genius to have it at Mandalay Bay One. I felt like I was back on a college dorm. Sort of that whole, that whole connection. Yeah, we joked about not being outside.

[00:13:26] Well, there was a reason I wasn't outside because everything was, was convenient and like, For instance, Kathy's party Sunday night. You know, I looked at the space before I got in there and thought, oh, man, that it just feels like we're just part of the whole big thing that couldn't have worked out better.

[00:13:39] One, it was quiet inside inappropriate for the conversation, but I watched probably 20 people walked by on the way to other things, you know, and so like pop out, pop back in, pop out. And I was at a party the, the Coresight party, and actually they had they had their space, but then there was another party that it was in another space, but the outside was, was, was common.

[00:13:59] [00:14:00] And I ended up at somebody else's party and had a great conversation with people that I'd met at another party. And man, you, you're not gonna see that any, at any, you, you, that's the only place probably in the plant. You could have all those different venues, world-class food, world-class space, but then have all that interaction.

[00:14:18] So, yeah, I, I just, I man, I, I have shifted 180 degrees about having something in Vegas. 

[00:14:23] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. And then we, we were talking earlier, so there was also, and I think this, I, I love this relationship theme because there was Sunday afternoon, right? There was the, the Retail ROI get together for, for the March Gladness event, watching some of the March Madness games. And I think Jeff, maybe you were the one who said it, right?

[00:14:37] Just sitting there, you could just see people you recognize walking by, because it was on the way to registration for, for shop talk. People would walk by and say, Hey, how you doing?

[00:14:47] Jeff Roster: Somebody's gotta own that 2:00 PM space on Sunday, because literally at that location. So for people that weren't there, I think where we were, the bar we were at was probably what, a hundred yards at max from, from [00:15:00] registration, 

[00:15:00] Ricardo Belmar: from the registration. Right, 

[00:15:01] Jeff Roster: everyone was walking there. I mean, every startup on the planet, it should just be right there at that bar or the, or the Starbucks on the other side because you're seeing the whole show. 

[00:15:10] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.

[00:15:11] Yeah.

[00:15:12] The Experience Is the Relationship

[00:15:12] Vicki Cantrell: you know, I'm gonna just wanna one more thing on this aspect of relationship. Ricardo, Ricardo, when we were talking earlier and we talked about that, you know, pre pandemic was experiential you know, that's what retailers were trying to, to deal with, and then pandemic became about convenience and figuring out that, and that it's just based on some of these themes and some of the stuff we did see is how important we're back to the experience and the experience is gonna be different.

[00:15:43] You know, when you're talking about, ways of shopping and video and all, all of the different ways. But ,the fact that we think about that, for me, convenience and experience is the same because it's based on that your connection to, between the customer and the [00:16:00] retailer, that it's about the relationship.

[00:16:02] Because the experience is the relationship. It's not whether you walk into the store and say, oh, isn't this beautiful? That's not what the experience is. I mean, it better be okay or better be pleasant, but that's not the experience. The experience is the connection of the person that you're, you're being with when you get there.

[00:16:23] So retail is really about that. And if you have that relationship, then you're going to think this was convenient cuz you connected.

[00:16:34] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm.

[00:16:35] Ron Thurston: agreed.

[00:16:36] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. I, I, I agree. And, and, and you know, the other interesting thing I, I noticed too, just thinking again about these four themes now I, I wasn't at the earlier shop talks before last year, but what I do remember in, in talking with people who had been there and looking at the content coming out of the, the conference, you know, I, I think this really started out as a e-commerce focused kind of really heavily digital channels focused to, to [00:17:00] retail much less emphasis, if any, on what's happening in in stores. And, you know, and Jeff and I talked to the content team while we were there and, and they mentioned that, you know, they had gotten feedback from attendees that said, you know, in this post pandemic world, we, we really need to talk more about stores.

[00:17:18] Stores are a real focal point for our business and for our, how we build those relationships with consumers you know, that the content at the event needs to reflect that. And I, I, I think this is one of the things I find most interesting with Shop Talk is how quickly they pivot from topic to topic based on that feedback.

[00:17:37] You know, when we, when we sat, when we were chatting at N R F, one of the things we said is, well, we hope, we hear some themes around, , not just how you're enabling store teams, but when you add things to the store, are you just adding or are you taking something away? You know, are you recognizing that every time you add there's potentially a burden on, on the team there?

[00:17:56] And a difficulty in, in them executing it because it's yet one more [00:18:00] thing, it's one more thing to ask for. And I don't know that we heard that at NRF in sessions there very much. But I feel like at Shop Talk there was definitely, and, and they said it right in one of the four themes about enabling workers.

[00:18:13] That was definitely a sense. I mean, I, I even felt that in sessions that were not about, the store teams, it came up in the conversation with the speakers on stage. It's almo. It was almost like a reflex that everyone just recognizing every retailer that was up there, they could have been talking about optimizing their supply chain.

[00:18:31] And somehow then the conversation led to an impact on the store team and how they had to be aware of that and do something about it, not just let things happen. Which was something I hadn't really experienced and seen in this kind of content at other events.

[00:18:47] NOT the Year of Shiny Objects

[00:18:47] Ron Thurston: Yeah, I mean, I'll, I'll jump in because I started it, but I think the you know, the, my my sense from speaking to so many retailers is there's, there's a sense of clarity [00:19:00]right now about the, which. Where revenue is being generated and, and where their business needs to grow and where they need to make investment.

[00:19:10] And I think maybe years past a little bit of like shiny object and what's fun and what's exciting, what keeps us in the press. And this is not a year of the shiny object. This is a year that we need to deliver on the investments that we've made. And that investment for all of them is in people, and stores, and if their e-commerce business is, is not growing at the rates they expected, then the revenue and the profitability comes from the store.

[00:19:40] And so I do think maybe it's even, you know, 90 days later, from N R F the retailers I'm speaking to is I'm here to find solutions for workforce management. I'm, I'm here to find things of a better way to, to communicate with my teams, to improve productivity, to think about [00:20:00] how to make returns easier at the store level.

[00:20:02] Just all of the things that are actually about delivering results. And you can't deliver the results that any company needs. Without strong teams in place who are well trained and led and motivated. And I, I just hope that, that this is not, or I should say, my sense is not, this was not a, a temporary idea that they have now said 80% of our revenue is coming from the store.

[00:20:30] And that's not changing. And we need to fix this. And I hope my sense is right given the, you know, the small set of people I spoke to. But that's my, that's my feeling right now.

[00:20:41] Jeff Roster: You know, that's a, that's quite a phrase, Ron. The, not the year of the shiny object. I mean, if you don't put that on Twitter today, I'm, I'm a hundred percent stealing that. Um, 

[00:20:50] Ron Thurston: Go for it. go for

[00:20:51] it Jeff

[00:20:52] Jeff Roster: And I think that's such a profound observation because I mean, I go back to the old wars, you know, the [00:21:00] retail Apocalypse Wars and all that sort of stuff for, for whatever reason folks trying to bury the store and, and, and, you know, Buzek and I, and I think, well, I didn't know you at the time yet, Ron, but we were like, how.

[00:21:11] Help me understand 90%, at the time it was 90% of the revenues coming from the store. Why would you try to do that? And I, I, I still don't know the answer to that, but I think, you know, maybe it's a covid thing, just a realization how important we are. We are a tribal people. We want to. The best part of human nature is wanting to be in, you know, in fellowship, in connection with people.

[00:21:34] And so if retail is a people business, it has to reflect that and, and our technology needs to reflect that. And maybe we're a little more mature than we were in 2020 and, and realize the value of people. 

[00:21:46] Yay. You know, I'm pro-human. And so that's a, that's a great observation. I think that's a, that's, that's a.

[00:21:52] Real, real thing. And I think what's interesting, Ron, when I walked the f the, the, the exhibit hall, which is where I spent all my time, the number of [00:22:00] live streamers, the number of, of folks wanting to do something more in the store, which kind of goes against your idea of like, let's not add to the store, but it's happening.

[00:22:08] I mean, TikTok was there in a big way. Fire, uh, I, I, I forget the names, but a bunch of those fight.

[00:22:14] Ron Thurston: Fire firework.

[00:22:15] Jeff Roster: firework. They're all. There's this, this idea that the store is the platform that we can do more with. And, and I think if we can unleash that creativity that all these, you know, all these folks have, and give them the tools, which they're already there.

[00:22:32] Wow. Holy smokes. We're gonna have a whole new engagement model.

[00:22:36] Ricardo Belmar: One interesting thing I heard, and I heard this more than once from different speakers and sessions on, on this point, you know take, take the livestream maybe was one example, but I I, I heard people say in a positive way this recognition that if we have more functions and roles needed in the store, there's this recognition that, you know, not every store team employee has to know how to do every single role.[00:23:00]

[00:23:00] That there is this idea of specialization. So, so maybe to your point, Jeff, if live streaming is something that a particular retailer's stores need to support, that doesn't mean every employee needs to be able to jump on a live stream. It means that maybe the, you know, three out of 10 or something that are good at it and want to do it. That's now their role, right? They, they, they're given that role and they put some focus on that. Maybe there are three other employees who's, who would rather be fulfilling BOPIS orders right in, in, in the back room. And because they can do that faster than the other employees. And it's okay to have this specialization and this recognition that, whether it's a store manager level or a district manager, somebody's has this awareness and that we're gearing the operation of the store around this idea that we can specialize in different areas and start building career paths for, for, for employees that that's something new that I hadn't heard before.

[00:23:51] Ron Thurston: Yeah,

[00:23:52] I think what, what happens in that Or, go ahead, Vicky.

[00:23:55] Vicki Cantrell: No, no, go. Go ahead.

[00:23:57] Ron Thurston: You know, I think that that, I think [00:24:00] what to add on to that, the realization that some of that evolution also doesn't have to happen in the store. So you think about livestream. Several brands have said, oh, great, we're gonna build a showroom in the office and we're gonna livestream from the office with, by someone who's highly skilled at selling live on camera, which is a very unique and important skill.

[00:24:23] But at the same time, if I'm gonna livestream from the office, then I need to have live inventory so that when I click into what I'm selling, oh I see it's available at my store. I can also buy online pickup in store, I can reserve. So there the rest. The rest of the chain has to, has to work in order for it.

[00:24:42] You can't just throw up livestream and think someone's gonna join your website on Tuesday at 12 o'clock and buy something. You actually have to build the infrastructure behind that, which requires a lot more than signing up for firework. And so I think that there, there's a, there's a thought process that's [00:25:00] deeper now, which is exciting.

[00:25:02] That doesn't have to just be like, let's add one more thing to the store. And that I, I'm excited about that.

[00:25:08] The True Melding of Digital and Physical Now Begins

[00:25:08] Vicki Cantrell: It feels like we're at an inflection point of the, and, you know, we all sense it, we've all sensed it for years. it, and it took a real shot in the arm when, when we were in the pandemic and online, like really spiked. know, because as we all know, people have been ignoring that stat of 80% of the sales come from the stores for years.

[00:25:33] As online has grown a little bit. They just, they still don't look at it. Okay. And now we, we have this feeling we can feel the sea change of, not, now it's not stores over, over online. It's not that it feels like a meld, finally feels like the, the coming together, not the either or. And so with that in mind, [00:26:00] I'd like to know from you guys how you see I know it's a arbitrary thing, but what time moves so fast?

[00:26:08] What does the, with this in mind, what do the next three years look like in retail? What's going to be important? What will happen as we continue to meld better, smarter in, in better ways? Like the meld really is happening. What's it gonna look like?

[00:26:27] Ricardo Belmar: I'll, I'll jump in. I, I, I think you're, you're right that we are, this meld is finally happening in the way that maybe we all started talking about. I'll pick a number, five years ago, right? That, that, that, that now there's sort of a recognition that not only is it happening, but actually needs to happen for, for supporting the business. It needs to happen because I, I go back to one of the things we said in that same timeframe was, you know what, now the consumer is in charge, right? The consumer now has all the power. Remember when that was the new phrase, a few years back. 

[00:26:56] So, so what, what is that led to now, right?

[00:26:58] Yeah. People like, like to [00:27:00] repeat it, but maybe didn't believe it. But I think now there's recognition that. Not only does the consumer still have the power, guess what? They've had it all these past years and you just didn't realize it. So now that you're recognizing it, it's time to do something for that.

[00:27:12] And, and the the something that you need to do is this melding because, I think all four of us have said it right, consumers don't care about channels. you know, there was a lot of, of jokes made, I think during shop talk about when they said on stage it was time to kill omnichannel and, and use a different phrase.

[00:27:26] But I, I think the jokes aside, maybe the reason why we don't need to use that as a term is because if we're truly gonna look at things from the consumer's perspective, there's no such thing as a channel,

[00:27:36] Vicki Cantrell: Right.

[00:27:37] Ricardo Belmar: right? The whole I idea of looking at it, measuring, developing, operating in terms of these channels is absolutely meaningless to the consumer.

[00:27:46] And what is meaningful to the consumer is, do you have a product I'm looking for, where can I go get it? How can I get it? How can I learn about it? To make sure I'm, I'm making the right choice and can you help me do all of the above? [00:28:00] And sometimes that's on, could be on a live stream you know, could be in a store, might just be the website.

[00:28:06] you know, now, now we're, because of the new developments in ai right? We actually have meaningful demos about chatbots being helpful, unlike previous generations that maybe weren't so helpful. but yeah, there's all these different ways to, to do that now. It doesn't matter. I, I think maybe I, I might rephrase it to say it's not that we need to stop thinking about channels.

[00:28:23] It's that let's recognize the channels don't matter. What matters is, how are you making those things I just listed available to that customer? you know, I, I like using Jeff, your example. We mentioned about B N H photo and we talked last time at N R F, right? 

[00:28:37] Jeff Roster: Just thinking 

[00:28:38] Ricardo Belmar: Because it's like the per, it's the perfect example, right?

[00:28:41] You needed to know. About a product and, and, and maybe it wasn't even a product, I guess I shouldn't say a product. You needed to know about a category, right? To help you decide on a product and you leveraged that livestream. It was a one-to-one, but I'd still call it a livestream for that learning experience.

[00:28:57] Did it matter to you as a consumer that it was [00:29:00] a livestream versus you having been in New York City and walked into the b and h store? No. Right. And. It didn't matter. You got the answer you wanted. You knew what you wanted to buy in the end. And that's, that was the win. So I think that's what what I see is finally happening and we'll see more of it is the blending is real. and I think the technologies have caught up too. I think maybe one of the reasons, if, if we're honest, right? It's that there were a lot of technology promises in those past years that were 80% there, maybe not a hundred percent there. And retailers, you know, in fairness right, couldn't figure out how do I get that extra 20% to make it right.

[00:29:34] I think the technology is catching up to that in many ways to make it more, more doable and easier to do. And, and. The consumer adoption is there. You know, one of the things I, I joked about with some folks at, at Shop Talk is last year's big hype was all metaverse, right? And when you look back and say, well, why didn't that necessarily pick up?

[00:29:54] And I'm not gonna say that it's gone, but I am gonna say that it it, the promises that were talked about and hyped up at Shop Talk [00:30:00] last year didn't materialize because what's the thing that was missing? It was the consumer adoption of it. the retailers could do any, everything they wanted on that, but consumers didn't really have a reason to adopt it.

[00:30:11] Whereas I, I think now the technologies retailers are looking at don't have that consumer adoption element because it's transparent to the consumer. And I think that's where the focus will go. So if a retailer thinks a, I'm not gonna worry about channels, I just need to present things in front of a customer in some way.

[00:30:27] What are all the different ways I can do that? What technologies help me accomplish that? And which ones don't really require the consumer to learn how to use it because they're already using it. It's either, you know, consumers know how to watch a video. You don't have to teach them how to join a live stream, that that's easy.

[00:30:41] You're gonna have to teach them how to go to a website. You have to teach them how to go into a store and do things. That's why Metaverse hadn't picked up yet, because consumers have to learn how to do it. And you know, back to Ron, your comment. It's not the year for shiny objects. 

[00:30:55] So the, the technology, I think now, and I, I'll say for now, and let's make it the next [00:31:00] three years, the technology's gonna help with that seamless nature, which I guess I'm back to one of the four shop talk themes, right?

[00:31:05] Seamless stores. but maybe expanding it to just seamless experience that that's where it's finally gonna go. And we won't have to, we're not gonna need to distinguish. Oh, is that an experiential retail scenario for the consumer, or is it about convenience? It's just there, it's just commerce.

[00:31:21] Ron Thurston: Yeah,

[00:31:22] Jeff Roster: Yeah, 

[00:31:22] Ron Thurston: mean, I'd love I, 

[00:31:24] Jeff Roster: Go ahead, Ron.

[00:31:25] Ron Thurston: go ahead, Jeff. No, go ahead.

[00:31:26] The New Way to Encourage Innovation With Consumer Adoption

[00:31:26] Jeff Roster: So Ricardo, I know you're gonna be shocked to hear this, but sometimes vendors make a lot of buzz or noise or, or to go back to my old days hype. The whole metaverse thing is so illustrative because one, I I'm a fan because I've trained in simulators as a aviator for, for 25 years, but that is a massively heavy lift.

[00:31:45] And to go and scream about something that is a massively heavy lift we're, we're absolutely gonna see that evolve and it's gonna take kinda like R F I D probably five to ten years. And so, you know what we need to understand, and this is where we as communicators really need to. [00:32:00]Probably should have been in front of that a lot more.

[00:32:01] It's like, let's encourage innovation, but understand what it takes to innovate. You can't, I mean, you can't spend 10 trillion overnight. You have to do that in increments and you have to encourage the innovation and not make fun of it when it, you know, something like, like Metaverse doesn't blow up overnight.

[00:32:18] There's a lot of processes and the process for innovation has become cheaper and cheaper and cheaper. And that's, that's what's also helping. I mean, low-code. I mean it's you know, my podcast partner, Brian can't say the word low-code enough in, in every sentence, it's low-code cuz he's a low-code guy.

[00:32:32] But, but he's, he's sold me on that. I mean, when I started at Gardner, I, I mean terabyte of storage was a million dollars. I've got 15 terabytes on my desk. I've got three terabytes in my laptop. That's a picture in 20 years of the massively almost deflationary cycle or cost of, of innovation.

[00:32:52] And that's what we have now. Now we have these tools, now we have all this stuff. You think about. You think about what, what a customer service channel is [00:33:00] gonna look like in a year. We're gonna be live streaming we're gonna have ChatGPT I mean, it is orders of magnitude different than what we, what we, what we were, you know, just a simple phone call even five or six years ago.

[00:33:11] That's how fast we're innovating. And the key though, that's how cheaply we're able to innovate and to do things. And now the key point, and Ricardo, you're so spot on. You have a customer that now has more power in their hands and we, that's an old story, but they know how to use it. They know how to embrace it.

[00:33:29] And I think the other thing that people need to understand, that's one thing Ron, I'm a little concerned about when I hear brands wanna maybe over, over. I don't know, try to manage that live stream a little too much. Look at TikTok. Those are not professional videos. Those are getting millions of views.

[00:33:45] Those are kids with a phone in front of them. And so the, that expectation for something overmanaged, I think is gonna, is gonna be a negative more, more so than a positive. And so that's that part of that innovation where the customers way ahead of where we are as brands, as [00:34:00]retailers, and we're just sort of racing and trying to figure out, okay, how, how much professionalism do we put in?

[00:34:05] How much do we let people run loose? So exciting. The next three years are just gonna be insane. Um,

[00:34:10] Vicki Cantrell: what you just said has one specific word that is the same and has been the same for the last 10 years, will be the same for the next 10 years. The key is that the consumer knows how to adopt adoption. We all know that things that can't be or it's difficult to adopt, never work, whether it's metaverse or whatever, or tools.

[00:34:31] Things that are easy to adopt will always work. And the consumer now has a very different set of a very different playing field for their adoption. That is not in our control and but it benefits us tremendously.

[00:34:49] The Loyalty Factor

[00:34:49] Ron Thurston: Yeah, agreed. I agree with you, Jeff. It's it's that balance of like, what can I do? Like test, learn, try, get out of it quickly, or, you know, [00:35:00] actually, if this is an important part of, of the customer journey, I think that what I would add to your question, Vicky, about the next three to five years is about loyalty, but I look at it in like really two, two very different ways.

[00:35:14] I look at it from a, a store, I look at it from a store team if we're gonna talk about stores, we have to talk about team loyalty and people loyalty. And so the biggest pushback from investment in people that I hear from senior executives is, the turnover's too high for me to spend money on these people.

[00:35:36] And my pushback is the reason that they're turning is because you're not investing. And if, if we don't, if we don't put more effort into loyalty at the front lines, it's going, we're gonna keep repeating the same mistakes and we're, we're never gonna deliver the results that we need if you can't retain the team.

[00:35:56] So I think there's a huge loyalty frontline. And then [00:36:00] there's loyalty customer so much about first. Data, you know, how do we get new customers? How do we retain that customer? How much does it cost to get that customer? And while I think the conversation about having like the full picture of the customer when they walk into a store is a good conversation, I don't see it live in action.

[00:36:22] If I'm a, you know, a, a very like loyal e-com for one brand, I walk into a location that they have no idea who I am. 

[00:36:32] And so I think we, we have to figure out ways to retain loyal customers. That's cha, a channel less loyal customer. Uh, because they're putting a lot of effort in there. Now finding ways. I mean, that's, I was between NRF and, and Shoptalk.

[00:36:48] I was at eTail, which, you know, that is very much about marketing and customer and first cus first party data and that we, we have to think about that as a major priority for [00:37:00] the next three years too. And from, from both sides. yeah. 

[00:37:04] Vicki Cantrell: great point.

[00:37:05] Ron Thurston: Yeah. 

[00:37:06] Vicki Cantrell: And, and loyalty is not about points anymore. That's, that's, that's, that's gonna be like the word innovation really needs to mean something different. So does the word loyalty. It's not about earn points. It's a very different proposition. I think, Ron, you explained it. You explained it well.

[00:37:23] Ron Thurston: Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, and it's, it's, you know, luxury, luxury brands are going through this. Contemporary brands are going through this, you know, people are then, yeah, Walmart's writing about a luxury customer shop buying groceries at Walmart. Now how do, how do I retain that customer and a Walmart, but I'm also then buying a handbag at Gucci like this.

[00:37:45] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm.

[00:37:45] Ron Thurston: There, there's no one right way to say how a customer's behaving today, yet loyalty to the, to the brands where people have gravitated is how we will sustain great results.

[00:37:58] Vicki Cantrell: Yeah.[00:38:00]

[00:38:00] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. I, I, I think, you know, hearing you say that I, I, I thought of two other examples like the Sephora at a Kohls. How does Kohls convert that Sephora customer to shop in the Kohls much like, you know, the Amazon returns in the Kohls, giving them, a coupon to buy something in the store over the next few days.

[00:38:18] I think that's the same as your example Vicki, it's not of just about points uh, points and discounts don't buy loyalty for a brand, but then compare that to the kind of loyalty a brand like Apple has with their customers. Which I, if there's gonna be, if you were to pick two or three top brands, that probably reflect the highest loyalty, I think that has to be one of the top three right there. And sure you can point to, you know, the decision to open stores as having been a great piece of that, but it's not really just about Apple stores, it's just everything about them that drives the loyalty. And there's an example of a brand that doesn't give points and doesn't give discounts, that has a lot of super loyal customers.

[00:38:54] As you know, when we got on here and we all showed off our, our AirPods Max headphones here. [00:39:00] So there's, there's a brand loyalty example that's real.

[00:39:03] Ron Thurston: But

[00:39:03] they have But they 

[00:39:04] Vicki Cantrell: of the relationship experience. 

[00:39:07] Yeah. 

[00:39:08] Ron Thurston: but they also have frontline team loyalty. This is a, that's a brand that invests heavily in stores and training and development and, and strategy and upskilling them and investing and stretch assignments and going to Cupertino for a year, going to Hong Kong for a year.

[00:39:26] Like they will do anything to make sure that their teams are happy. Having worked there, myself and I can speak to it like it, they're the loyalty, generally from Apple employees in stores is really high and you feel that they're proud to work there and they're could not be more excited to sell you 600 dollar headphones.

[00:39:47] And you know, we, we all, we all do. We all do it. And it's a really good example, Ricardo. Yeah.

[00:39:53] Back to Changing Relationships As The ShopTalk Theme

[00:39:53] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. Yeah. Well, Vicky, you started us on the, that changing relationships theme as maybe the [00:40:00] core theme of the four that Shop Talk mentioned. I think Ron, with the raising the point about loyalty, you brought us right back full circle again to the changing relationships and how that, if we were to pick one theme of, of the four that Shop Talk's that I think we're, we're sort of, maybe indirectly agreeing here that the number one theme was these changing relationships and which includes both how you build that brand customer relationship, but also the brand employee relationship, and I think we can add in, you know, brand to brand relationship. It really is all about how those relationships are changing and how they remain together for the success of the business.

[00:40:38] Ron Thurston: Yeah. agreed.

[00:40:40] Vicki Cantrell: agreed. 

[00:40:41] Ron Thurston: Yeah. 

[00:40:41] Ricardo Belmar: So I think maybe that's a good note for us to close on,

[00:40:46] Vicki Cantrell: Sounds great. 

[00:40:47] Ron Thurston: Yes, 

[00:40:47] Vicki Cantrell: is always so much fun. 

[00:40:50] It's a great, always a great conversation 

[00:40:53] Ricardo Belmar: think Jeff, your idea is onto something here that we do these after an event a few days or so after the event, so we've all had time to kind [00:41:00] of think about and, and digest it.

[00:41:01] Jeff Roster: yeah, I, I do think, I do think vendors are gonna have a tough decision now. I mean, they're gonna have to consider shop talk a, a, a, a really legitimate show. And especially if they push into the store aspect of it. It's gonna be interesting to see how, how, how you allocate your marketing dollars. But I was impressed.

[00:41:17] I was very impressed with the show.

[00:41:20] Ron Thurston: me too. Very impressed. Is anyone going to Barcelona?

[00:41:23] Vicki Cantrell: No.

[00:41:24] Ron Thurston: No. 

[00:41:24] Ricardo Belmar: unfortunately, 

[00:41:25] Jeff Roster: great city, but two darn

[00:41:27] Ricardo Belmar: if only so, yeah,

[00:41:28] Ron Thurston: no recap of Shop Talk Barcelona.

[00:41:39] Ricardo Belmar: Yep, Well,

[00:41:39] Jeff Roster: Maybe 

[00:41:40] Ron Thurston: I think 

[00:41:40] Jeff Roster: cover it. Maybe we'll cover it from afar. we'll just, we'll just jump the, We'll, jump the Twitter hashtag and then give our 

[00:41:45] Ricardo Belmar: right. right. We'll, we'll look for great photos from people who are fortunate enough to be there.

[00:41:52] Jeff Roster: Exactly.

[00:41:54] Ricardo Belmar: Well, I, I guess maybe on that sort of disappointing note for the conversation

[00:41:57] Ron Thurston: Sorry. 

[00:41:58] Ricardo Belmar: we'll, we'll wrap it up [00:42:00] there. What do you say Jeff? 

[00:42:01] Jeff Roster: Sounds good.

[00:42:02] Ricardo Belmar: Sound good? All right. Well, Ron, Vicki, a as always a pleasure. Thanks again. We're gonna have to keep, keep doing these cuz this is just too much fun not to.

[00:42:10] Vicki Cantrell: Yeah, it's great. I love seeing you guys. Happy Friday. Happy weekend. Happy Easter. Happy Passover.

[00:42:16] Ron Thurston: Same. Same to you. 

[00:42:17] Same to you. Thank you. 

[00:42:18] Ricardo Belmar: Thanks everybody. Thank you.

[00:42:19] Vicki Cantrell: Okay, bye.

[00:42:21] Ron Thurston: Bye.

[00:42:22] Show Recap

[00:42:22] Casey Golden: Welcome back everyone and wow, I loved that conversation. I'm so with you guys on focusing on people. Retail is, totally a people business. I might not have been at Shop Talk, but I have to agree with the whole point about changing relationships and focusing on people loyalty both with store teams and customers is really where every retailer and brand needs to go.

[00:42:52] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah, it, it's interesting how different this discussion went compared to the conversation Jeff and I had with Krystina [00:43:00] Gustafson and Ben Miller in part one of the series. In that discussion, we really dug into, All the main trends at the show, and, and both Krystina and Ben really gave us some amazing details and viewpoints on how those four trends were manifesting in the industry and how people talked about it at the show.

[00:43:15] And they were totally right about those trends. And of course, I, I have to put a plug in here for retail media networks and that that's for you, Jeff, if you're out there listening, you know, I couldn't resist to bring that up, just, just so you're aware. But when Ron and Vicki both brought us to that intersection of technology and people, it nicely outlined how it really does come down to people no matter what you do with the technology in retailing.

[00:43:36] I have to say, that's what made this one of my favorite conversations on the podcast yet.

[00:43:41] Casey Golden: Well, I mean, I really appreciate you guys for, you know, always bringing it back to center, amplifying the importance of relationships. It's really been with a heavy heart over this pandemic, just kind of seeing clientele turn into email marketing and diluting the magic of these relationships and that sales process, [00:44:00] or beyond the sales process, like the brand experience, you know, coming from the luxury side.

[00:44:06] It's so much more than a sales associate, and shopping alone just hasn't hit the same note. So I'm just really excited to see so much focus go into the people, the relationships, the technology that needs to be made for people to like scale their work. Workspaces, digitization, not just replacement and, and AI like,

[00:44:34] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah,

[00:44:35] Casey Golden: AI Bard and I are not getting into conversations about shoes, pants, jackets, dress, nada! not invited 

[00:44:42] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah, that's not happening. Yeah. I, I, I really think Vicki nailed it in her comment when she said, you know, the relationship is the experience. At the end of the day, that's what it's all about. And you know, as often, I mean, let, let's face it, we talk about technology on this show all the time, but we, we can't lose sight of [00:45:00] why are we talking about technology?

[00:45:01] It's to help augment that people relationship, not replace it. And, and that I think is really what we're, this conversation really got to. And, and I'm really excited that that's where it ended up.

[00:45:11] Casey Golden: Me too. I'm slightly biased, but thanks. I, I, I really like how you guys brought this together. With that Vicki called the melding of online in stores. Of course, I'm a store girl, right. But I like built some of the first e-commerce stores. And I just love talking about like store teams, how interacting with a stylist or a personal shopper makes a completely different and unique experience from discovering products to just the buying process.

[00:45:42] Vicki just nailed it by saying that the experience is the relationship and what that melding, digital and physical is all about. When retails retailers do it right, services

[00:45:56] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm.

[00:45:57] Casey Golden: are significant.

[00:45:58] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. Yeah. I, I [00:46:00] agree. And I think Jeff added a great point there too, about how the technology has to enable this, not compete with it, not make it more complicated. You know, it's that, it, it's that whole adoption point that we all talked about and why I think we all agree in that, you know, the, the current tech trends like, All, everything about generative AI right now and anything else that took over the conversation at this year's Shop Talk really have an advantage over the metaverse trend from last year's show because it comes down to consumer adoption.

[00:46:26] If consumers can benefit from a technology without adopting anything new or any, whether it's a new habit or the ac, technology on, on the consumer side of it, then that's a winner. For retailers, if consumers have to adopt something, it's gonna take a lot longer for, for them to complete that adoption and to make an impact on, on the retailer's business.

[00:46:43] It doesn't mean it won't happen. I think to Jeff's point about metaverse, I think we'd all agree it's gonna happen. It will happen. It's just not happening right away. It might not happen in less than a year's time. It's more of a long-term play. But some of these other technologies that we're trending this year, they have an immediate impact.

[00:46:58] Casey Golden: Hundred [00:47:00] percent. I mean so much, so many of times technology ends up taking the work out of the business or the process and puts all of the work on the consumer. They have to do the heavy lifting and I think metaverse is definitely suffered from that, you know, the perspective that you just spoke of.

[00:47:22] But then again, like. Web three has a better chance of making a difference because it's easier to lift on the consumer side than the Metaverse. The adoption will come from loyalty programs, as an example. Exclusive and unlockable content. Just look at Starbucks New Odyssey program and what you and Jeff talked about with Max from Z Blocks back at N R F.

[00:47:46] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah, that's true. That that's true. I mean, although I have to admit, I, I, I've totally failed in my efforts to unlock the first NFTs in the Starbucks program. I didn't get enough points to get the early drop.

[00:47:55] Casey Golden: All right. Well, I, we, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll do a little one-on-one[00:48:00]

[00:48:00] Ricardo Belmar: I may need your help on that.

[00:48:01] Casey Golden: Be offline and on the blockchain.

[00:48:04] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. Oh, okay. I guess you know that maybe with your help, I can do better next time. But you know, I, I guess on that totally disappointing note I think this is, it only means one thing for this episode, right Casey?

[00:48:17] Casey Golden: Indeed it's that time to, to wrap up. And I have to say, I agree. It's the best one ever. So we're gonna wrap up this Shop Talk crossover series with Jeff Roster and This Week In Innovation, it's been good.

[00:48:32] Ricardo Belmar: It has.

[00:48:33] Show Close

[00:48:33] Casey Golden: If you enjoyed this season shows, especially our just completed podcast crossover mini-series, please consider giving us a five star rating and review on Apple Podcast. Remember to smash that subscribe button in your favorite podcast player so you don't miss a minute. Plus remember, you can watch us, not just listen on our YouTube [00:49:00] channel and like, and comment there too. Share your thoughts. 

[00:49:03] If you wanna know more about what we talked about today, including a full transcript of this episode, take a look at the show notes for handy links and more deets. I'm your co-host, Casey Golden.

[00:49:14] Ricardo Belmar: If you'd like to connect with us and share your thoughts on this season and crossover series, follow us on Twitter at Casey c Golden and Ricardo underscore Belmar, or find us on LinkedIn. Be sure and follow the show on Twitter and LinkedIn, too, at Retail Razor for the latest updates. And watch for our season finale episode coming soon with a truly special guest host that's gonna turn things around and ask us questions for a change.

[00:49:37] But for now, I'm your host, Ricardo Belmar.

[00:49:39] Casey Golden: Thanks for joining us.

[00:49:42] ​

[00:49:45] Ricardo Belmar: And remember, there's never been a better time to be in retail if you cut through the clutter. 

[00:49:49] Until next time. 

[00:49:50] This is the Retail Razor Show. [00:50:00]