Saving Bread

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What do sourdough bread, music, pottery, and a colorful silicone scrubber have in common? Joshua Grange.

Joshua is a lifelong professional musician who has toured and recorded with artists including kd lang, Beck, and Sheryl Crow. He's also a passionate sourdough baker, the creator of DOAP, and the musician behind the Saving Bread theme song.

In this episode, Allison sits down with her good friend Joshua for a funny, thoughtful, and wonderfully unpredictable conversation about creativity, friendship, and finding fulfillment in the things we make.

We explore how Joshua's journey from professional music to sourdough baking led to the invention of DOAP, why embracing failure is essential to learning, and how the worlds of music, pottery, and bread share more in common than we might think.

We also talk about whole grains, the importance of supporting local farmers, the inspiration behind his free DOAP-Calc for baker's math and levain calculations, and why not everything we love needs to become a business.

Along the way, Joshua shares the story behind "Crush Out," the song listeners hear every week on Saving Bread, and offers his own perspective on what saving bread really means.

More than anything, this is a conversation between two friends who believe in creativity, community, and making room for everyone at the table.

Connect with Joshua and explore DOAP:

DOAP Website

Free DOAP-Calc

Instagram @getdoap

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What does it take to build a stronger, more connected baking community, and how do we make sure the people preserving the craft of bread baking have the resources they need to succeed?

This week on Saving Bread, I'm joined by Karen Bornarth, Executive Director of the Bread Bakers Guild of America, and Wai Chu, the Guild's Education and Events Manager, for a conversation about education, community, the business of baking, and the future of our industry.

Founded in 1993, the Bread Bakers Guild of America has spent more than three decades bringing bakers together to exchange knowledge, improve their craft, and support one another. Today, the organization serves everyone from aspiring bakery owners and cottage bakers to experienced production professionals.

Karen shares her journey through professional baking, education, and workforce development, and why she's become so passionate about helping independent bakeries build sustainable businesses.

Wai brings his own experiences as an entrepreneur and educator to the conversation, sharing how the Guild creates opportunities for bakers to learn from one another through classes, workshops, and in-person gatherings.

We also take a deep dive into Camp Bread 2027, the Guild's three-day educational gathering returning to Rhode Island next March.

In this episode, we discuss:

• The history and mission of the Bread Bakers Guild of America
• Why community and knowledge sharing matter in an increasingly digital baking world
• Supporting cottage bakers, small businesses, and large-scale production bakeries
• The Guild's educational programming, formula database, and professional certification opportunities
• Making bakery ownership more sustainable and financially viable
• What to expect from Camp Bread 2027, including hands-on baking classes, business workshops, and opportunities to connect with fellow bakers
• Why preserving the craft of baking also means supporting the people behind it

CAMP BREAD 2027 REGISTRATION IS NOW OPEN!

Registration opened October 28, 2026.

March 9–11, 2027
Johnson & Wales University
Providence, Rhode Island area

Camp Bread brings together baking professionals for three days of education, collaboration, and community. Active annual membership in the Bread Bakers Guild of America is currently required to register.

LINKS & RESOURCES

Bread Bakers Guild of America
https://www.bbga.org/

Camp Bread 2027 Information
https://www.bbga.org/Camp-Bread-2027/

Register for Camp Bread 2027
https://members.bbga.org/event-6872608

Become a Guild Member
https://www.bbga.org/Join

Building Your Bakery Educational Series
https://www.bbga.org/Building-Your-Bakery

Guild Professional Certification
https://www.bbga.org/Get-Certified

Learn more about Matriarch Bread
https://matriarchbread.com

Thank you for listening to Saving Bread!

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This week on Saving Bread, I'm joined by Cat Cox, the baker and owner of Country Bird Bakery in Tulsa, Oklahoma, and the 2025 James Beard Award winner for Outstanding Pastry Chef or Baker.

Cat's journey into baking began in restaurant kitchens, where her curiosity about sourdough and locally sourced ingredients eventually grew into a much bigger vision. In 2022, she opened Country Bird Bakery with a commitment to celebrating the grains, farmers, millers, and agricultural traditions of the American Heartland.

At the center of Cat's philosophy is the idea of terroir, that bread, much like wine, can and should reflect the place where it's made.

In this conversation, we explore what it means to create bread with a regional identity, the challenges of sourcing locally grown and stone-milled grains, and why limitations in ingredients can sometimes lead to our most creative work.

We also get into the technical side of baking with whole grains, including how Cat selects different wheat varieties for breads and pastries, adjusts hydration when working with unfamiliar flour, and uses grains like Sonoran wheat, rye, and buckwheat to create distinctive flavors.

In this episode, we discuss:

• How Cat's restaurant background led to the creation of Country Bird Bakery
• The meaning of terroir in bread and why regional identity matters
• Building relationships with local farmers and millers
• Using locally available ingredients when fresh-milled flour is difficult to source
• Why pastry can be a wonderful introduction to whole grains
• Choosing hard and soft wheat varieties for bread and laminated pastries
• Adjusting hydration and fermentation when changing grain varieties
• Making whole grains desirable through flavor rather than nutritional claims
• Staying true to your baking philosophy and finding your audience
• Cat's experience winning the 2025 James Beard Award

One of my favorite takeaways from this conversation was Cat's encouragement to look at what's growing around us rather than always searching elsewhere for inspiration. I was so inspired that afterward, I created a honey oat sourdough using 100% locally sourced ingredients.

Whether you're a home baker experimenting with whole grains or a professional looking to build stronger connections with your regional grain economy, this conversation is full of practical advice and inspiration to bring back to your own kitchen.

Connect with Cat Cox and Country Bird Bakery

Website: https://www.countrybirdbakery.com/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/countrybirdbakery/

Country Bird Bakery
1644 E 3rd St, Unit B
Tulsa, Oklahoma 74120

Connect with Saving Bread

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/savingbreadpodcast/

Podcast website: https://savingbread.buzzsprout.com/

Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/saving-bread/id1896790106

Follow Allison and Matriarch Bread

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/matriarchbreadco/

Website: https://matriarchbread.com/

If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a fellow baker and leave a rating or review. Your support helps these conversations reach more people who care about bread, agriculture, and the people behind our food.

Long live real bread. 🌾

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My dear friend, mentor, and fellow baker Josh Fairbanks returns to Saving Bread for an honest, completely unedited conversation about scalds, dough development, and the art of becoming a more intuitive baker.

We begin by answering listener-submitted questions about scalds: what they are, how they differ from porridges, and why they can be such a valuable tool for incorporating flavorful grains like rye, einkorn, and buckwheat into bread. We discuss hydration, starch gelatinization, mixing techniques, and practical considerations for both home bakers and larger-scale production.

From there, we dive into gluten development, bassinage, folding, and why developing strength early in the mixing process can make life considerably easier for the baker.

But as conversations with Josh often do, we eventually wander into something deeper: learning to trust our senses, questioning rigid methods, and recognizing that making consistently beautiful bread doesn't necessarily mean doing the exact same thing every time.

This episode is a little different. No editing, no polishing, just two friends talking bread, answering your questions, sharing experiences, and occasionally letting the dogs out.

We hope it feels like you've pulled up a seat at the bench alongside us.

Interested in working with Josh? Learn more about his baking consultations at fairbanksbread.com/consult.

If you enjoy Saving Bread, please consider leaving a five-star review or sharing the podcast with a fellow baker.

Happy baking, and long live real bread!

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What happens when you take a community that's grown online and bring everyone together in person?

This week on Saving Bread, Allison sits down with her longtime friend Laila, the baker and educator behind The Early Rise and founder of West Coast Breadfest.

After attending Asheville Breadfest, Laila was inspired to create something similar for the West Coast. What followed was an enormous undertaking that brought together bakers, educators, millers, and bread enthusiasts for a day dedicated to learning and community.

Laila shares how the event came together, the decisions behind selecting instructors, what she learned from its first year, and what she's envisioning for its return in October 2027.

The conversation also explores Laila's unexpected journey into professional baking, how The Early Rise grew into a successful educational platform, and the challenges of building a career on social media while staying true to the things that matter.

And for bakers interested in technique, Laila shares the inspiration and science behind her sweet stiff starter, how she uses it to develop flavor without excessive acidity, and why it has become central to her sourdough cinnamon rolls.

Along the way, Allison and Laila reflect on the importance of accessible education, supporting small farms and mills, and why nothing quite replaces learning together in person.

In this episode:

• The inspiration behind West Coast Breadfest and what comes next
• Creating opportunities for a diverse group of bakers and educators
• Turning online connections into real-world friendships
• Growing The Early Rise and navigating success on social media
• The science and practical benefits of a sweet stiff starter
• Supporting local grain economies and preserving meaningful bread traditions

Find Laila:

Website and recipes: https://earlyrisebaker.com

Instagram: @theearlyrisebaker

Follow West Coast Breadfest for updates on the 2027 event.

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Jill Nguyen didn’t grow up baking. In fact, she didn’t start until 2020.

What began as a pandemic bread obsession eventually became Capitol Jill Baking, her Washington, DC microbakery known for naturally leavened breads, inventive pastries, and colorful, highly personal cakes.

In this episode, Jill and I talk about how she built a baking style that feels unmistakably her own. We get into how she develops new products, why she often starts with a feeling rather than a flavor, and how she balances creativity with the realities of producing food consistently at scale.

We also talk about building a business within a community: collaborations with local restaurants and shops, earning the trust of customers and other business owners, asking for help, and why those relationships take time.

Jill shares how she went from making her first cake during the pandemic to creating completely custom wedding cakes, why smell and texture matter as much to her as flavor, and what she has learned from pursuing ideas she hadn’t necessarily been trained to do.

Toward the end of our conversation, Jill describes breadmaking as a practice rather than something you ever completely master. You pay attention to the flour, temperature, humidity and fermentation, make the best decision you can, learn from it and come back the next week a little better.

And for Jill, Saving Bread also means something very literal: keeping good bread local, honest, seasonal and accessible.

A conversation about creativity, consistency, community, trust and giving yourself permission to get good at something you didn’t start doing until later in life.

Find Jill:

Instagram: @capitoljillbaking

Capitol Jill Baking: capitoljillbaking.com

Follow Saving Bread:
Instagram: @savingbreadpodcast

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This week on Saving Bread, Allison sits down with Jon and Amanda of Proof Bread in Arizona.

Proof began in 2017 with hand-mixed dough, one farmers market, a few wholesale accounts, and a home bakery. Today, Proof has grown to five locations, nearly 100 employees, an in-house milling program, relationships with local grain producers, and an entirely sourdough menu.

Jon and Amanda share what that growth has actually looked like behind the scenes, including hiring their first employees, investing in equipment, building systems, developing an efficient menu, scaling production across multiple locations, and learning when holding onto control can eventually hold a business back.

They also discuss Proof's transition toward locally grown and house-milled grain, how they work with farmers to plan future wheat crops, and why creating a stronger local grain economy has become such an important part of their work.

The conversation also gets into the Proof Intensive, their hands-on program for bakers. Rather than presenting one version of what a bakery should become, Jon and Amanda give bakers an opportunity to see what growth can actually look like and decide for themselves where they want to land.

And ultimately, the conversation comes back to something much bigger than scaling a bakery: bread as craft, tradition, community, and something worth preserving.

In this episode:

• Growing from a garage bakery to five locations
• Hiring and learning to let go of control
• Choosing equipment that actually gives time back
• Building a more efficient bakery menu
• Scaling sourdough bread and pastry
• Milling flour in-house
• Working directly with local grain producers
• Building a stronger regional grain economy
• The Proof Intensive and education for working bakers
• Why bigger isn't necessarily the goal for every bakery
• Bread, community, and preserving human craft

Find Proof Bread

Proof Bread
https://www.proofbread.com/

Instagram
@proofbread

Proof's bakery locations, classes, and additional resources can be found through their website and Instagram.

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Leah is back for another Rabbit Hole episode, and this time we’re talking about what we’ve been eating, where we’ve been traveling, and the loaf everyone in the bread world seems to have an opinion about.

Leah shares her visit to Moulin in Napa, where whole grains and freshly milled flour are worked into breads and pastries. Allison takes us through her trip to Mexico City and Panadería Rosetta, including the guava roll, pan de elote, whole wheat croissants, and the tres leches cake that was good enough to order twice.

Then we get into the $60 rye loaf in New York City. What actually makes bread worth more? Where should that money be going? Does a price like this help bring attention to rye and traditional bread, or does it turn bread into a luxury product?

We talk through the cost of good ingredients, supporting farmers and millers, paying bakers fairly, local grain, marketing, scarcity, and why the conversation around this loaf has become almost as interesting as the bread itself.

Plus, a little preview of The Grain Ritual and what we’re hoping to create with this upcoming three day baking experience.

Have thoughts on the $60 rye loaf? Come find us on Instagram at @savingbreadpodcast and tell us what you think.

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pH is one of the topics I’m asked about most often, but the number on a meter is only one part of understanding fermentation.

In Lessons E08 of Saving Bread, I break down what is happening inside a sourdough culture and explain how I use pH in my own baking and production.

We talk about the relationship between yeast and lactic acid bacteria, the enzymes naturally present in flour, how starch becomes available to microorganisms during fermentation, why organic acids cause pH to fall, and what happens to dough structure as fermentation continues.

I also walk through the actual pH ranges I use for my country bread and higher whole grain doughs, from levain maturity through bulk fermentation, shaping, cold retard, and baking. These are not universal targets. They are examples of how I use pH alongside dough temperature, time, flour choice, expansion, structure, and experience to make fermentation decisions.

In this episode:

• What yeast and lactic acid bacteria are doing during sourdough fermentation
• How amylase and other flour enzymes affect fermentation
• What pH actually measures
• pH versus total titratable acidity, or TTA
• Why whole grain flour has greater buffering capacity
• How I evaluate levain maturity
• Protease activity and changes in dough strength
• My pH checkpoints for country bread and high whole grain bread
• Why fermentation continues after dough enters the refrigerator
• Why a lower pH does not necessarily mean a bread will taste more sour
• What sourdough fermentation does and does not do to gluten
• Why pH targets should be developed around your own flour, formula, temperature, and process

You do not need a pH meter to make good bread. For me, it has become a useful way to record fermentation, repeat results, and connect measurable data with what I can already see and feel in the dough.

The goal is not to chase one perfect number. It is to better understand the dough in front of you.

Resources mentioned in this episode

Hanna Instruments Bread & Dough pH Tester
Hanna HI981038 Bread & Dough pH Tester

San Francisco Baking Institute
San Francisco Baking Institute

Modern Bread and Viennoiserie at SFBI
Modern Bread and Viennoiserie course

Follow Allison and Matriarch Bread on Instagram: @matriarchbread

Follow Saving Bread wherever you listen to podcasts.

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What does it take to build an incredibly open, delicate sourdough crumb when you are working with different flour, a different climate, and different equipment than the bakers who originally inspired you?

This week on Saving Bread, I am joined by Anujay Krishna, a baker in Lucknow, India, whose beautifully open, lacy country loaves have made him one of the most requested guests on the podcast.

Anujay did not grow up eating this style of bread. His early relationship with bread came through the rotis and parathas made in his family kitchen. He discovered sourdough years later online, built his own starter, and began learning through videos, baking communities, feedback, experimentation, and a lot of repetition.

That process eventually became a bread style that is unmistakably his.

We talk about what it means to learn sourdough when the flour, temperature, humidity, equipment, and ingredients available to you are different from the conditions behind the formulas you are studying.

Then we get into the dough.

Anujay shares how he evaluates a new flour before committing to a hydration, including a small flour and water test at several hydration levels. We talk about the difference between elasticity and extensibility, why protein percentage alone does not tell you how a flour will perform, and what he is looking for when he checks a windowpane.

We also get into his approach to gluten development. Anujay prefers to mix his dough to full development and then allow fermentation to inflate the structure he has already built. Instead of folding on a schedule, he waits for the dough to relax and only folds when he believes the dough needs it.

We talk about:

How he maintains his sourdough starter in the heat of Lucknow

Why he moved away from expensive imported flour and learned to work with flour available in India

How to test the hydration potential of an unfamiliar flour

Elasticity versus extensibility

Why flour protein quality can matter more than the number printed on the bag

Long cold autolyse for hand mixed dough

Managing dough temperature during mixing

Full gluten development versus relying heavily on folds

Why too many folds can work against an already strong dough

High hydration sourdough in the 85 to 86 percent range

Using a larger percentage of younger levain

Why bulk fermentation is one of the most important parts of his process

Gentle shaping and preserving the structure created during fermentation

Accounting for continued fermentation while dough cools inside a home refrigerator

Cold retard timing

Adapting country dough into a sandwich loaf without mixing an entirely different dough

Building a sourdough bakery and bread culture in Lucknow

And throughout the conversation, one idea keeps coming back: becoming a better baker is not about copying somebody else’s numbers.

It is about getting enough repetitions that you begin to recognize your own flour, your own starter, your own environment, and your own dough.

Anujay learned from bakers working in completely different conditions and then adapted what he learned until the bread became his own. That may be the most valuable lesson in the entire conversation.

RESOURCES MENTIONED

Anujay Krishna on Instagram
@anujayanstar

Trevor Jay Wilson, author of Open Crumb Mastery
Open Crumb Mastery

The Bread Code by Hendrik
The Bread Code

TWF Flours in India
TWF Flours

TWF T55 Bread Flour
TWF T55 Versatile Bread Flour

Brød & Taylor Sourdough Home
Sourdough Home

Three One Farms
Three One Farms

Leviosa microbakery in Jaipur
Leviosa on Instagram

Follow Saving Bread on Instagram at @savingbreadpodcast.

If you enjoyed this conversation, send it to another baker who would love it.

Happy baking and long live real bread.