What would it look like if we actually asked suicidal clients what was making them suicidal and then treated that? Dr. David Jobes, professor of psychology at The Catholic University of America, director of the CUA Suicide Prevention Lab, and developer of the Collaborative Assessment and Management of Suicidality (CAMS), joins the podcast to challenge the dominant medical model response to suicidality and make the case for a better way. This conversation covers the history and structure of CAMS, the evidence behind it, how it compares to the safety plan, why the research on hospitalization should change how clinicians think about least-restrictive care, how CAMS works with adolescents, and the full range of training options available today, including the brief intervention model for inpatient and emergency settings.
0:00 - Intro and Dr. Jobes's background
0:57 - How a philosophy background led to 43 years in suicide research
3:09 - What came before modern suicide prevention
4:00 - The medical model problem and why hospitalization often increases risk
7:01 - Autonomy, agency, and why containment tends to backfire
9:38 - How CAMS works: the Suicide Status Form and the collaborative assessment
11:36 - Identifying drivers and building a treatment plan around them
15:50 - The relationship between CAMS and DBT
19:48 - Safety planning vs. the Crisis Response Plan: what the research actually shows
23:04 - The marketing problem and how DBT became world famous while better-evidenced tools stayed obscure
24:03 - Types of drivers: relational, vocational, and self-related
27:23 - Suicidal ideation rates post-COVID and what the data shows
30:12 - CAMS is effective at any level of ideation, not only crisis presentations
33:07 - How to get started: the Guilford Press book, CAMS Care training, and consultation
38:47 - The CAMS Brief Intervention model for inpatient and emergency settings
39:49 - Empath units as a model for humane emergency psychiatric care
41:21 - Training for teams, systems of care, and discounts for training programs
45:07 - Fidelity, training hubs, and the international reach of CAMS
48:12 - What CAMS adds that individual clinicians may not be getting in their training
51:09 - CAMS with adolescents: autonomy, existential drivers, and the Stabilization Support Plan for parents
55:16 - Grant support, funding shifts, and how to reach CAMS Care
56:32 - Dr. Jobes on self-care and consultation as an ethical and clinical requirement
Episode Highlights:
CAMS is a framework, not a new psychotherapy. Clinicians of any theoretical orientation can use it without abandoning their existing approach.
The core of CAMS is a collaborative therapeutic assessment in which the clinician takes a figurative seat next to the client to complete the Suicide Status Form together, with the client as the primary author.
The framework asks the client directly what makes them suicidal, t
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