By Joel Kallstrom and Tim Raveling
The podcast currently has 73 episodes available.
In this episode, Tim and Joel talk about why certain games are so replayable, why that is, if and when it is important, and how designers can intentionally think about replayability in their own games. We frame this discussion in terms of intrinsic motivations (gameplay that is inherently pleasurable) and extrinsic motivations (e.g. working towards a goal, trying to find something out, pursuing a story, pursuing social goals like in an MMO). We also talk about games and designers can reduce friction in cases where that might prevent you from returning to a game. 00:00:00 - Introduction and definitions - Intrinsic vs Extrinsic motivations, and friction. Discovery and play as intrinsic motivation.
00:08:50 - The best games weave intrinsic and extrinsic motivations together -- Valheim is a good example of this.
00:18:20 - Counterexample: State of Decay 2 - failure of shared context in multiplayer makes for external counter-motivation -- players end up feeling like there's no point.
00:24:56 - What is a game's "Discovery Space", and why does it count toward intrinsic motivation?
00:49:50 - Juice -- satisfying UX design. A game that is inherently, tactilely satisfying to interact with.
00:58:00 - What are "Extrinsic motivations" and what are some examples?
01:29:30 - Friction: why do people feel like they don't want to come back? How can you design toward getting players back to your game.
01:42:48 - Making it personal: What games are we each most likely to go back to next?
Games mentioned
Truck Simulator, Disco Elysium, Ubisoft games, Valheim, Dead Cells, Mobile Games, One Hour One Life, No Man’s Sky, Dying Light, Minecraft, Elite Dangerous, Pentiment, Frostpunk, Workers and Resources, Going Home, Skyrim, Scum, Cyberpunk 2077, Sifu, Dwarf Fortress, Deathloop, Project Zomboid, Baldur’s Gate 3.
When most games, even some of our favorites, will occupy us for at most 40 or 50 hours, some manage to sink their hooks in for much (sometimes *much*) longer. Why is that? What is it about the designs of these games, the cadence, the core loops, that make us keep coming back again and again? What can game designers learn from the games have this kind of replayability, and how might we go about applying these lessons to our own games? Show Notes 00:00:00 Intro 00:04:10 - Joel #10: The Surge 2
00:09:50 - Tim #10: Truck Simulator
00:20:30 - Joel #9: Cyberpunk 2077
00:25:48 - Tim #9: X-COM 2
00:33:00 - Joel #8: Halo Infinite
00:37:27 - Tim #7: Baldur’s Gate 3 00:49:50 - Joel #6: Assassin’s Creed Origins / Odyssey / Valhalla 01:00:05 - Tim #6 / Joel #7: Call Of Duty / Warzone
01:05:44 - Joel #5: Fallout 4
01:18:28 - Tim #5: Microsoft Flight Simulator
01:23:00 - Joel #4: Jedi Survivor (with Sifu tangent)
01:35:00 - Tim #4: Civilization 5
01:42:07 - Tim #3: Valhelm 01:47.22 - Joel #2 / Tim #8: Red Dead Redemption 2 01:55:00 - Tim #2: Kerbal Space Program 02:01:06 - Tim + Joel #1: Hunt: Showdown 02:08:52 - Analysis and closing thoughts
In part two of our conversation with Nic Tringali, we go deeper into their development process. Design and prototyping, testing, setting victory conditions, and the delightful old-school addition to the game: the manual.
00:00:00 - Theme - how did the look come together? Concept of cathedrals stretching through time.
00:04:20 - Worldbuilding, problems with history
00:07:00 - Dramatic play, victory conditions. Surviving to tell a story, rather than survival as an inherently interesting goal.
00:17:40 - Development: transitioning from John Wick: Hex and Arcsmith, managing stress.
00:26:17 - Design and prototyping, planning features, play testing, development timeline
00:41:10 - The manual: The Banished Vault has an accompanying manual in the old style, the kind that used to ship with every game. What was the thinking behind this?
00:51:48 - Where to find Nic
Nic Tringali - The Banished Vault
Nic Tringali is a game designer for Bithell Games. Their recent release The Banished Vault (published by Bithell Games’ Lunar Division) is a gothic space-faring exploration and survival game, released on July 25th to very positive reviews. We talk with Nic about their early gaming inspirations, before getting into the gameplay mechanics of The Banished Vault.
00:00:00 - Introduction - Life post-launch, how did you get into games 00:04:00 - Influential early games - Morrowind, Stuntman 00:09:20 - Board games and their cross-pollenation with video games 00:14:57 - Complexity and planning in The Banished Vault: space mechanics 00:32:21 - Complexity budget: how did Nic decide which choices were interesting for the player, and where to put the complexity? 00:37:30 - What kind of player did they have in mind? 00:39:40 - The aesthetics of The Banished Vault: art and sound 00:47:01 - Where to find Nic
Josh Sawyer of Obsidian Entertainment has one of the more robust CVs in game design: Iceland Dale 1 and 2, Fallout: New Vegas, Pillars of Eternity 1 and 2 and most recently, the highly-praised historical role-playing game Pentiment.
We focus on various aspects of the production of Pentiment: avoiding burnout, drawing from meticulously-researched historical material, dealing with religion (both as a nexus of temporal power and a daily spiritual presence in peoples lives), as well as covering gameplay and narrative aspects.
00:00:00 - Introduction
00:01:00 - Life post-Pentiment, comparison with the aftermath of Pillars of Eternity: Deadfire
00:04:20 - Managing production stress and preventing burnout, for individuals and for teams
00:06:50 - Balancing personal vision, and the requirements of publishers. For their next project, team morale will be the number one priority.
00:08:30 - Allowing team members to play to their strengths.
00:11:30 - Dealing with history and religion as opposed to fantasy worlds. Engaging with "microhistory" as opposed to top-down, ruler-first historiography; examining the daily lives of the people of an era.
00:16:56 - The difference between taking inspiration from history and literature, as opposed to games that draw primarily on other games.
00:21:26 - Religion in Pentiment: "I consider myself an atheist but, like, who cares." The personal nature of characters’ engagements with God, the Devil, spirituality, and the church as a political entity.
00:31:41 - The politics of power in Pentiment
00:43:02 - Gameplay and narrative consequences in Pentiment - major (plot-altering) and minor (aesthetic, dramatic, personal)
00:50:50 - Contrasting this kind of design in Pentiment with consequences in the final act of Deadfire
00:51:50 - Dramatic immersion in Pentiment: keeping the dramatic intimacy through rituals and role-playing mini-games.
Tim and Joel return after a hiatus for the first episode of 2023. We talk about the future direction of the podcast - which, now that Tim’s own game development projects are picking up steam - will involve a more design-focussed approach to looking at games.
With this in mind, we go into the differences between three games: The Wolf Among Us (2013), Disco Elysium (2019) and Pentiment (2022). All these games have strong narratives and great writing, but the latter two incorporate these elements into gameplay in a way that Wolf doesn’t.
Tim goes into his adventures in solo game development, making a working orbital model in C++.
00:00 Intro to new season
01:50 Games purely as entertainment vs Games criticism bearing the weight of other media
00:04:48 What have we been playing?
00:06:00 Steam Deck for traveling and multiplayer
00:10:40 The Wolf Among Us
00:18:14 Disco Elysium on Steam Deck
00:21:09 Which games have affected you?
00:26:39 Venue
00:30:00 Pentiment / Disco Elysium
01:14:03 Godot game dev: C++ and orbital mechanics
01:24:53 GPT-4 and the benefits of AI for the lone dev
01:35:25 Kerbal Space Program and the challenge of making complex problems fun for the user
01:42:27 Narrative elements express themselves out of the mechanics that are happening
01:48:22 Socials
Part two of our conversation goes deeper into the mechanics, narrative and design of Hardspace: Shipbreaker, from its genesis as the winner of an internal company game jam, to early access on Steam, to its full release last year.
Elliot talks about wanting to explore the idea of “dangerous labor”, to immerse the player in a blue collar experience, to “honor the work” - the skill, the camaraderie, the consequences and the tensions between workers and bosses.
Elliot Hudson is the game director for Hardspace: Shipbreaker, and was a senior designer for Homeworld: Deserts of Kharak. In part one of our two-part conversation, he talks about his beginnings in gaming, from sketching Mario Bros 2 levels out on paper, to making flash games while studying film, to switching to studying game design full time, and finally getting a job at Blackbird - first as a programmer and later as a designer.
He talks about the his journey with Blackbird from working on the canceled project Hardware, to Deserts of Kharak, Blackbird’s entry into the much beloved Homeworld Series, and finally to the conceptually and narratively unique Hardspace: Shipbreaker - one of our favorite games of 2022.
There’s no one quite like Rami Ismail: game developer, pilot, industry ambassador, consultant. Any one of these could be a full career and somehow Rami does them all. Formerly one half of hit indie studio Vlambeer, he has used his success to advocate for change in the industry for the last decade, traveling the world with a focus on advancing game development in countries where the gaming industry doesn’t have the same foothold.
In this wide-ranging conversation, we talk about his experiences with these communities and the specific challenges they face - cultural, economic, linguistic - and the wealth of story and experience that goes unheeded as a result. We also talk about game engines, changes in the industry, and (inevitably) the problems of late-stage capitalism.
“Imagine you’re writing a book and occasionally, when someone turns the page, all the letters fall off the page.”
Tim and Joel interview Stephen Danton, who developed the excellent Unto the End with his wife Sara.
Stephen talks about his career, and the range of experience he brought to bear in the making of his first big game. We cover various aspects of video game development.
The podcast currently has 73 episodes available.