The Skeptics Guide to Emergency Medicine

SGEM#339: I Don’t Need this Pressure On – Chest Wall Thickness at Needle Decompression Site


Listen Later

Date: July 29th, 2021

Reference: Azizi et al. Optimal anatomical location for needle decompression for tension pneumothorax: A multicenter prospective cohort study. Injury 2021
Guest Skeptic: Dr. Robert Edmonds is an emergency physician in the Air Force in Ohio.  This is Bob’s 14th episode cohosting the SGEM.

DISCLAIMER: THE VIEWS AND OPINIONS OF THIS PODCAST DO NOT REPRESENT THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT OR THE US AIR FORCE.

Case: You are driving home from a busy shift and see a car collision occur right in front of you.  The driver is a restrained self-extricated male who lost control of his vehicle into a light post and the vehicle’s airbags deployed.  After safely pulling over and having a bystander call 911, you evaluate the patient.  He is speaking in full sentences without confusion, has a strong, rapid pulse, significant pain in his chest and is having a very hard time breathing.  As you wait for EMS to arrive, you quickly dash back to your car to retrieve your stethoscope and an angiocatheter you have in your glovebox.  You notice a marked difference between breath sounds on the left side and decide the patient needs treatment for a tension pneumothorax.  After obtaining consent from the patient, you debate whether to decompress at the second intercostal space in the midclavicular line as you originally learned, or in the fourth/fifth intercostal space midaxillary line as per the current ATLS guidelines.
Background: The latest ATLS guidelines were published in 2018. We covered them on the SGEM Xtra with Dr. Neil Parry. There were several changes to the new guidelines but one of them was changing the location for needled decompression for adult patients.
Needle thoracostomy is subject to several complications compared to a tube thoracostomy primarily due to the shorter length of the needle as well as the smaller lumen, so site selection has focused on finding a short distance and a site unlikely to kink or get dislodged.
We have covered chest tube thorocostomy a couple of times on the SGEM with Dr. Richard (Thoracic) Malthaner. SGEM#129 looked at where to put the chest tube on trauma patients and if a post-procedure chest Xray (CXR) was required. The conclusion from that episode was to put the tube on the correct side, within the triangle of safety, and within the pleural space. Continue to obtain a CXR post chest tube knowing it will probably not change management. Be more concerned if the patient is doing poorly or the tube is not draining.
The other episode on chest tubes was SGEM#300. The clinical question was does everyone with a large first-time spontaneous pneumothorax need a chest tube? The answer from that episode was It is reasonable to provide conservative management (no chest tube) in a patient with large first-time spontaneous pneumothoraxes if you can ensure close follow-up.
The changes in the ATLS guidelines were based in part on a small study (n=20) utilizing cadavers [1]. There were also studies using CT scans showing a preference for the fourth/fifth ICS AAL [2,3].  These studies were limited by heterogeneity (I2 83%-98%), possible publication bias, and not being randomized trials.
These authors are adding to the literature by utilizing ultrasound on live patients. This could reduce some of the potential confounders in prior studies that were exclusively cadavers which may have differences in CWT due to post-mortem changes.
The previous studies also focused on homogenous populations like military members and are therefore less generalizable to the general population. Additionally,
...more
View all episodesView all episodes
Download on the App Store

The Skeptics Guide to Emergency MedicineBy Dr. Ken Milne

  • 4.5
  • 4.5
  • 4.5
  • 4.5
  • 4.5

4.5

116 ratings


More shows like The Skeptics Guide to Emergency Medicine

View all
EMCrit FOAM Feed by Scott D. Weingart, MD FCCM

EMCrit FOAM Feed

1,865 Listeners

Emergency Medicine Cases by Dr. Anton Helman

Emergency Medicine Cases

541 Listeners

Pediatric Emergency Playbook by Tim Horeczko, MD, MSCR, FACEP, FAAP

Pediatric Emergency Playbook

306 Listeners

Core EM - Emergency Medicine Podcast by Core EM

Core EM - Emergency Medicine Podcast

258 Listeners

The Resus Room by Simon Laing, Rob Fenwick & James Yates

The Resus Room

106 Listeners

EM Clerkship by Zack Olson, MD ; Mike Estephan, MD ; Maddie Watts, MD

EM Clerkship

811 Listeners

The Curbsiders Internal Medicine Podcast by The Curbsiders Internal Medicine Podcast

The Curbsiders Internal Medicine Podcast

3,351 Listeners

Emergency Medical Minute by Emergency Medical Minute

Emergency Medical Minute

258 Listeners

Heavy Lies the Helmet by Mike Boone, Dan Rauh, & Dr. Amanda Humphries

Heavy Lies the Helmet

264 Listeners

Core IM | Internal Medicine Podcast by Core IM Team

Core IM | Internal Medicine Podcast

1,147 Listeners

Emergency Medicine Board Bombs by EM Board Bombs

Emergency Medicine Board Bombs

330 Listeners

The Clinical Problem Solvers by The Clinical Problem Solvers

The Clinical Problem Solvers

512 Listeners

Critical Care Scenarios by Brandon Oto, PA-C, FCCM and Bryan Boling, DNP, ACNP, FCCM

Critical Care Scenarios

258 Listeners

The Curious Clinicians by The Curious Clinicians

The Curious Clinicians

374 Listeners

Critical Care Time by Critical Care Time Podcast

Critical Care Time

269 Listeners