Shades of Pleasure Podcast

Welcome to Episode 30 of Shades of Pleasure, where Mou, Wayne and Sacha, sex and relationship professionals, explore non-negotiables in non-monogamy.

Shades of Pleasure Podcast | With Moushumi Ghose, Wayne LeSane & Sacha Thomas

When it comes to consensual non-monogamy, there is a lot of talk about boundaries, rules, agreements, and consent. But what happens when the very rules we’ve created to protect our relationships begin to restrict our freedom, authenticity, and ability to communicate?

In this episode of Shades of Pleasure, Mou is joined by non-monogamy coaches Wayne and Sacha for a candid conversation about the evolving landscape of non-monogamy and the sometimes rigid expectations that come with it.

The hosts discuss the idea that non-monogamy must follow a particular set of rules to be considered ethical, explore the true realities of hierarchy and couple privilege, and ask whether our so-called non-negotiables are actually protecting us—or simply helping us avoid uncomfortable conversations.

Some of the topics we explore:

How to navigate our right to withdraw consent at any time, especially when it comes to non-monogamy

Acknowledging hierarchical fluidity and flexibility in non-monogamy

The difference between personal boundaries and a rules imposed on and by partners

Why do couples sometimes create more rules after agreements have been broken?

How do shame, fear, and sexual repression influence our relationship agreements?

The importance of acknowledging roles of patriarchy, privilege, and power dynamics in non-monogamous relationships

Building trust and emotional safety in ourselves without sacrificing personal autonomy

Drawing on their professional and personal experiences, the hosts also discuss the importance of having difficult conversations before situations arise, rather than waiting until an agreement has been broken and how best to do this.

And perhaps most importantly, they explore why non-monogamy isn’t a destination or a fixed identity with a universal rulebook. It’s an evolving practice that requires curiosity, self-awareness, flexibility, and ongoing communication.

The takeaway? Maybe the most important non-negotiable isn’t a rule about what our partners can or cannot do. Maybe it’s the willingness to keep talking, listening, negotiating, and growing together.

Whether you’re new to non-monogamy, have been practicing for decades, or are simply curious about alternative relationship structures, these conversations invites you to question the rules you’ve inherited—and the ones you’ve created.

Work with our hosts

Moushumi Ghose is a sex therapist and founder of Los Angeles Sex Therapy. Wayne LeSane and Sacha Thomas both offer coaching and support for people exploring consensual non-monogamy and navigating its complexities.

Mou and Wayne can be both be found through Los Angeles Sex Therapy, and Sacha can be reached here.

Tune in and subscribe to stay in the know below:

https://pleasureforthemasses.substack.com/s/shades-of-pleasure-podcast

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit pleasureforthemasses.substack.com

Welcome to Episode 29 of Shades of Pleasure, where Mou, Melissa, Wayne, and Kelly, four sex and relationship professionals, explore the harm caused by silence and complicity in the face of oppression.

What keeps people from speaking up for human rights? Why are so many afraid of losing credibility, followers, opportunities, or influence by challenging systems of oppression? These are the questions we wrestle with in this conversation.

Oppression is cyclical. Oppressed people can go on to oppress others. Harm that is never examined often becomes harm that is repeated.

We are all taught stories about how people are “supposed” to live, love, express themselves, and build relationships. While each of us has the right to make our own choices, dominant cultural narratives, particularly those rooted in conservative religious ideology and colonial systems, have caused profound harm for many communities. These narratives continue to reinforce objectification, exploitation, victim blaming, and the stigmatization of people who exist outside of what society has labeled as “normal.” Black, Brown, Indigenous, queer, immigrant, disabled, and other marginalized communities continue to bear the weight of these systems every day.

The impacts of colonization are deeply personal. They are ancestral, relational, embodied, and often passed from one generation to the next. They shape the way we move through the world, relate to one another, experience intimacy, and understand ourselves. Without intentional reflection and repair, these wounds can create ongoing cycles of trauma and retraumatization.

Healing professions are not immune from these dynamics. Therapy, academia, and medicine have long histories intertwined with racism, colonialism, and systems of exclusion. At the same time, therapy remains inaccessible for many people because of financial barriers, cultural stigma, geography, and the emotional demands placed on both clients and practitioners.

So, what does it actually mean to decolonize our healing spaces, our relationships, our bodies, and our minds? What does it mean to truly “do the work?” Does healing have to happen in therapy, or are there other pathways to liberation, community, accountability, and repair?

As Pride Month reminds us, decolonization is not only about unlearning. It is also about reclaiming. It is about visibility in the face of erasure, celebration in the face of shame, and joy in the face of oppression.

Tune in to the full episode below:

https://pleasureforthemasses.substack.com/s/shades-of-pleasure-podcast

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit pleasureforthemasses.substack.com

Welcome to Episode 28 of Shades of Pleasure Podcast, where Mou, Melissa, Wayne, and Kelly—four sex and relationship professionals—get real about life, love, intimacy, and nonmonogamy.

In this episode, the crew explores the intersections of systemic, social, and relational burnout. The political, economic, and social climate is oppressive and heavy. Additionally, it’s easy to burnout in the work that we do.

For therapists, coaches, healers, and helping professionals, that weight is often compounded by the emotional labor required to support others through their own struggles.

Traditional therapeutic and coaching models are not always sustainable. Practitioners are constantly navigating questions of capacity, boundaries, autonomy, and what it means to show up for clients while also caring for themselves. There can also be an unspoken expectation that therapists, coaches, and spiritual practitioners absorb or carry some of the emotional burden of the work, creating additional strain and fatigue.

But burnout is not limited to helping professionals.

Many people are experiencing chronic exhaustion, sleep disruption, doom scrolling, heightened stress, and a growing sense of overwhelm. Health and well-being often require more diligence, intention, and energy than people have available. Under the weight of oppression and ongoing uncertainty, even basic expectations can feel immobilizing.

Burnout can also show up in our relationships. It may look like increased reactivity, feeling on edge, reduced capacity for conflict resolution, emotional withdrawal, or difficulty accessing intimacy and connection. Some people shut down and isolate. Others overextend themselves in an attempt to keep everything together. Many find themselves wondering how they got so far from themselves in the first place.

From personal trauma to systemic oppression, from socialization to the realities of marginalized identities, burnout is rarely just an individual experience. It is often personal, relational, and systemic all at once.

For many people, burnout has become the new normal. And navigating it alone is not always possible.

Tune in to the full episode below.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit pleasureforthemasses.substack.com

Welcome to Episode 27 of Shades of Pleasure Podcast, where Mou, Melissa, Wayne, and Kelly—four sex and relationship professionals—get real about life, love, intimacy, and consensual nonmonogamy.

In this episode, the crew unpacks the impact of compulsory sexuality in the therapy room. Compulsory sexuality is the pervasive belief that sex is universally desired, inherently necessary, and expected as part of being human. As Sherronda Brown writes, it is the assumption that people are obligated to participate in sex at some point in life, and that something must be “wrong” with those who do not.

Many clients enter therapy distressed about differences in desire, often identifying “low desire” as the problem. But what happens when clinicians themselves are operating from a framework rooted in compulsory sexuality? Too often, practitioners inadvertently cause harm by pathologizing clients, excluding asexuality from the conversation, or offering prescriptive interventions designed to “fix” the lower-desire partner rather than understand them.

This becomes especially harmful when asexuality and the full spectrum of sexuality are erased from the conversations and clinical frameworks altogether. Additionally, compulsory sexuality is so deeply embedded in our culture, people with low or no desire frequently internalize shame and the belief that they are broken, defective, or incapable of intimacy, which couldn’t be further from the truth.

The truth is that clients are the experts on their experiences. Low desire or asexuality isn’t about a lack—a lack of desire, intimacy, or pleasure. In fact, it’s quite the opposite. Asexuality is a spectrum, and affirming care requires practitioners to move beyond assumptions about what relationships, sexuality, and fulfillment are “supposed” to look like, and meet clients where they’re at.

When we decenter compulsory sexuality, we create more space for authenticity, connection, pleasure, and relational possibilities beyond narrow societal expectations.

Curious to learn more about asexuality, low desire, and how affirming practitioners can deconstruct compulsory sexuality in clinical practice?

Tune into the full episode below!

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit pleasureforthemasses.substack.com

Welcome to Episode 26 Shades of Pleasure Podcast, where four sex & relationship professionals open up about life, love, and the pursuit of consensual nonmonogamy.

In this episode, the crew explores a question that many helping professionals quietly wrestle with: why can’t we therapize ourselves? Even with all the tools, insight, and training, there are limits to self-reflection, especially when we’re emotionally invested in our own lives and relationships.

The conversation also highlights the value of outside perspective. Whether through therapy, coaching, or community-based resources like books and podcasts, engaging with someone who has no stake in your life can help interrupt confirmation bias, illuminate blind spots, and support deeper growth. An objective lens can reveal patterns, offer grounded feedback, and invite new ways of understanding ourselves and our relationships.

The question becomes: are we truly available to ourselves? What does it mean to practice what we preach when it comes to boundaries and self-care? And are therapists actually skilled at tending to their own needs, not just understanding them?

Which is why having our own support matters. We all need spaces where we are not the ones holding it together, where someone can meet us with the same presence, care, and accountability we offer others. Spaces where we don’t have to perform clarity or competence but can instead be in process.

Of course, finding the right therapist or coach is part of the journey. That process can ask us to stay open, even when it feels uncomfortable. And within the therapeutic relationship itself, moments of rupture and repair can become powerful sites of healing.

Tune in for a thoughtful, honest conversation about why none of us are meant to do this work alone.

Visit Shades of Pleasure Podcast at our new home: https://pleasureforthemasses.substack.com/s/shades-of-pleasure-podcast

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit pleasureforthemasses.substack.com

Welcome to Episode 25 Shades of Pleasure Podcast, where four sex & relationship professionals open up about life, love, and the pursuit of consensual nonmonogamy.

In this episode, Mou, Melissa, Wayne, and Kelly break down the blame game and explore the role of radical responsibility in relationships.

Men’s roles in modern relationships have changed. For many, the traditional roles of provider or protector no longer define partnership. Many women are seeking something different now. Equality. Emotional presence. Shared responsibility. Partnership that feels mutual, not hierarchical.

The challenge is that many men have not been taught or shown what this version of partnership looks like. Models of healthy, emotionally attuned masculinity are still limited.

And this shows up in the therapy room: women are resentful, men are confused, and both partners feel stuck, often turning toward blame as a way to make sense of the disconnect.

Conflict affects everyone involved in a relationship. It isn’t one person’s problem. The blame game is self-defeating and harms the foundation of the relationship. Blame hurts the one holding it and it absolves us of responsibility and accountability. Discomfort does not remove the need for repair, and repair requires collaboration and willingness.

We can’t change or fix anyone. We can’t make anyone do anything. We don’t get to make decisions for other people.

So, what can we manage? How do we discern between ultimatums and healthy boundaries? How do we communicate with our partners and take mutual responsibility? How do we cultivate empathy and care?

Tune in to explore the difference between ultimatums and healthy boundaries, how to navigate emotional responsibility, and what it means to center choice over control in relationships.

Visit Shades of Pleasure Podcast at our new home: https://pleasureforthemasses.substack.com/s/shades-of-pleasure-podcast

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit pleasureforthemasses.substack.com

Welcome to Episode 24 of Shades of Pleasure Podcast, where four sex & relationship professionals open up about life, love, and the pursuit of consensual non monogamy.

In this episode, Mou, Melissa, Wayne, and Kelly explore the possibilities, and challenges, of restructuring relationships.

Believe it or not, many people don’t realize they have the agency or options to reshape their relationships. Even when partners discover that change is possible, the process can bring up resistance. For some, restructuring a relationship simply feels like too much change. For others, it can feel like a betrayal of what the relationship once was or what they imagined it would become.

Sometimes there is grief involved. People may need to mourn the former version of the relationship or the future they once envisioned together. The length of the relationship, the age and life stage of the partners, and the pace of the change can all influence how difficult the transition feels. Practical entanglements like shared children, a home, finances, or a legal union, can also make restructuring more complex and emotionally charged. Anger, sadness, and confusion are common, which is why working with a therapist or relationship coach can be incredibly supportive during this process.

And yet, change can also create space for possibility. Restructuring a relationship can bring freedom, renewal, and a new sense of balance. It can offer an opportunity to reconnect with what truly works for everyone involved. While breakups are often stigmatized and framed as failures, there are ways to approach relationship transitions with intention and care, what some call conscious uncoupling.

Instead of focusing only on what’s ending, we can ask: What is still meaningful here? What do we want to preserve? What do we each need going forward? Sometimes that means redesigning the relationship entirely. Other times, it might mean shifting from romantic or sexual partners to friends or chosen family. Other times, it might mean ending the relationship.

Ultimately, we have more choice than we’re often taught. With awareness, intention, and clear agreements, we can create relationships that reflect our values rather than simply following social or cultural expectations.

Think of yourself as the architect of your own relationships: you have the freedom and agency to design them on your own terms.

Tune in to the full episode to explore both the challenges and possibilities that exist across different relationship styles, structures, and constellations.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit pleasureforthemasses.substack.com

Welcome to Episode 23, Shades of Pleasure

Four sexologists open up about life, love, and the pursuit of consensual non monogamy.

Welcome to Episode 23 of Shades of Pleasure Podcast, where four sex & relationship professionals open up about life, love, and the pursuit of consensual relationship practices.

In this episode of Shades of Pleasure, Mou, Melissa, Wayne, and Kelly explore the often-unspoken imbalance of emotional and mental labor in relationships, and how it directly impacts desire, libido, attunement, and overall satisfaction.

Mental labor isn’t just about doing tasks. It’s the cognitive and emotional energy required to plan, anticipate, schedule, initiate, and execute them. And while this imbalance isn’t always strictly gendered, many cisgender women in heterosexual relationships report feeling chronically exhausted from carrying the bulk of this invisible labor, while many cisgender men report feeling confused, disconnected, or unsure how to repair the growing distance.

So, what role does communication actually play? What does real attunement look like in the day-to-day rhythms of partnership?

How do we cultivate presence, reciprocity, and embodied connection in ways that create space for relaxation, pleasure, intimacy, joy, and mutual desire?

Tune into the full episode below to hear the answers to all these questions and more.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit pleasureforthemasses.substack.com

Welcome to Episode 22, Shades of Pleasure

Four sexologists open up about life, love, and the pursuit of consensual non monogamy.

Welcome to Episode 22 of Shades of Pleasure Podcast, where four sex & relationship professionals open up about life, love, and the pursuit of consensual non monogamy.

In this episode, Mou, Melissa, Wayne, and Kelly explore the nuances, benefits, and stigmas surrounding surrogacy partner therapy.

We’ve heard the term “hands on work” in the realm of therapy or coaching, but what does that really mean?

One type of hands- on work, known as surrogate partner therapy, is a modality where people generally work in tandem with a sex coach or therapist and psychotherapist to experience the stages of a relationship: warming up, building trust, practicing consent, and exploring different forms of sexual and non-sexual intimacy.

A client processes their emotional responses with a psychotherapist and engages in various intimate experiences with a surrogate partner, from talking about sex, cuddling, going on dates, etc. while the coaches and therapists collaborate on helping to establish goals, and ensuring there is no harm done to the client, as its very common for clients to experience activation, triggers, or even attachment through this work.

Who generally seeks out surrogate partners? How do practitioners and clients transition out of this process and end a relationship? How does surrogacy therapy offer people unique correct experiences and templates to follow towards healthier relationships and intimacy? How do people overcome the shame and stigma of paying for sex and give themselves permission to seek out the support they need?

Regardless of your relationship style, structure, or status, surrogacy partner therapy can offer opportunities for people to get trained professionals to walk through building relationships and cultivating skills, like asking for what they want and need, or setting boundaries, skills that most people don’t learn along the way when it comes to either talking about or engaging in sex or intimacy.

Whether it’s feeling more comfortable talking to men or women, initiating intimacy, or engaging the body beyond a talk-based approach, surrogacy partner therapy can help broaden the work and open the doors for deeper integration and healing for the client on their terms.

Tune into the full episode to learn more about the nuances and benefits, how to break through the stigmas of surrogacy partner therapy, and the various ways this form of therapy can offer corrective experiences, healing, and cultivating essential skills for relationships, intimacy, and sex.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit pleasureforthemasses.substack.com

Welcome to Episode 21, Shades of Pleasure

Four sexologists open up about life, love, and the pursuit of consensual non monogamy.

In this episode, The Crew, Mou, Melissa, Wayne, and Kelly, explore the differences between a "messy list" and veto power.

Have you ever heard the term “messy list”?

A “messy list” is a concept that shows up primarily in polyamorous communities. It refers to a list of people, often family members, coworkers, or close friends, who partners agree to avoid dating because of the potential for excessive drama, complication, or harm to existing support systems.

But here’s where things get nuanced.

If a messy list is about care and safety, what happens when it starts to teeter into control? When boundaries and agreements begin to resemble life rules? What role do our own insecurities play in these moving goalposts? How much of that discomfort is rooted in monogamous conditioning rather than present-day reality?

At what point does a messy list become veto power, when “no” turns into deciding who our partners are allowed to desire or pursue?

In this week’s episode, we explore the nuances of agreements, boundaries, and negotiation, and how those differ from control, rules, or demands.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit pleasureforthemasses.substack.com