Shake the Dust

This week, Rich Villodas joins Jonathan and Sy to talk about his award-winning book, The Deeply Formed Life; what it’s like pastoring an extremely diverse community out of white supremacy; the relationship between emotional health, discipleship, and anti-racism; how he maintains joy; and a lot more. 

Shake the Dust is a podcast of KTF Press. Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Find transcripts of this show, sign up for our free mailing list, and subscribe to our blog at KTFPress.com. 

Hosts:  

Jonathan Walton – follow him on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter.  

Suzie Lahoud – follow her on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter.  

Sy Hoekstra – follow him on Twitter.  

Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra – listen to the whole song on Spotify. 

Our podcast art is by Jacqueline Tam – follow her and see her other work on Instagram.  

Shake the Dust is produced and edited by Sy Hoekstra. 

Questions about anything you heard on the show? Write to [email protected] and we may answer your question on a future episode.

Transcript 

[00:00:00] Rich Villodas: The gospel for me is not about a transaction. The gospel for me is about a person; it's about Jesus Christ and what he has done for us. And so, ultimately it's about his lordship, his kingship of which salvation is a beautiful and primary fruit, but not just the salvation of our individual lives, the salvation of the cosmos, the salvation of the world. 

And so I think if we begin from that place, the gospel moves from being anthropocentric, human-centered, me-centered, moves from being transactional. It moves from being relegated to an atonement theory, relegated to a post-mortem existence. The good news is about Jesus Christ. And if we begin there, with he is our good news and his kingdom is our good news, at that point we can find ourselves living faithfully in the world. 

[The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/That it will roll in abundance/ And that you’re building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.]   

[00:01:00] Suzie Lahoud: Welcome to Shake the Dust, leaving colonized faith for the Kingdom of God. A podcast of KTF Press. I'm Suzie Lahoud, here with Jonathan Walton and Sy Hoekstra.  

Sy Hoekstra: Today, we have an interview with Rich Villodas, who is the Brooklyn- born lead pastor of New Life Fellowship, a large multi-racial church in Elmhurst Queens in New York city. 

He is also a key speaker for the movement, Emotionally Healthy Discipleship. He has a BA in pastoral ministry from Nyack college, and an MDiv from Alliance Theological Seminary. His award-winning book, The Deeply Formed Life, was released in September of 2020.  

So just due to some last-minute, scheduling conflicts, Suzie was not able to make the interview, but Jonathan and I, in this interview, we discuss that book, The Deeply Formed Life, what it's like pastoring an extremely diverse community out of white supremacy, the relationship between [00:02:00] emotional health and discipleship and so much more.  

Jonathan Walton: And just a quick reminder, please subscribe to our blog at ktfpress.com to get access to our weekly newsletter, which is a regular roundup of media around culture, faith, and politics worthy of your time and attention. 

You will also get writing from the three of us and bonus episodes of this show. Your subscription supports this show and upcoming book projects. And it will hopefully allow us, in the future, to set other plans in motion, like paying other writers to contribute to our blog. And if you're not in a financial place to subscribe to the blog, we totally understand. 

You can support us by going to KTFpress.com and signing up for our free mailing list, subscribing to the podcast, and rating and reviewing the show wherever you're listening. All of these things are really helpful to us, too. Thanks so much.  

Suzie Lahoud: So now that that's over with, let's get to our interview with Rich Villodas, Jonathan, and Sy.  

Sy Hoekstra: Pastor Rich, thank you so much for joining us on Shake the Dust today.  

Rich Villodas: Thanks guys for having me. I look [00:03:00] forward to a good conversation. 

Sy Hoekstra:  Us too. So, we're talking about, or at least part of this conversation will be about your book. It's called The Deeply Formed Life, and you discuss the importance of spiritual disciplines rooted in emotional health, and it kind of goes through several specific practices that have been useful to you and that you think would be useful to readers. And then the book takes what I think some people might find a bit of a hard turn or, maybe a bit of a jarring turn into discussing race and racism. And so I think we would like to know why your book makes that pivot, and what is the relationship between racial justice, emotional health, and spiritual disciplines in your mind?  

Rich Villodas: At the core of what we're doing, what I was trying to do in the book, really flows out of the life of our congregation with our five values and the first value being contemplative rhythms. And for me, that first value and the [00:04:00] practices that flow out of that really serves as the foundation to witness to the gospel and witness to the Kingdom of God in ways that address matters like race. And so for me, first of all, the foundation is a life of prayerful union with Jesus, a life of silence, a life of contemplation, a life where we are moving beyond dualistic thinking, either/or thinking, black or white thinking, into a way that's marked by compassion and love and justice and forgiveness. All things that are often competing interests within us that find union in the contemplative life.  

And so it's out of that place where we're addressing some of the, well, I'm addressing some of the more complicated divisive issues of our day. And it just so happens that that second theme or value that I talk about as it pertains to racial justice and reconciliation comes after that. Namely because our congregation is so diverse, [00:05:00] racially, ethnically, generationally and so I wanted to just dive right into it. So that's the flow in our context at New Life, and I wanted it to be somewhat consistent with that.  

After a number of months that the book has been out, if I was going to make one change, I would consider though having the contemplative rhythms as the first theme that I addressed and then interior examination as the second, which then positions us to really address matters of race a little bit more effectively. But that gives you, uh, in terms of the thinking of what went behind it.  

Sy Hoekstra: Totally. And I definitely did not mean to suggest that the book was poorly edited or in the wrong order [Rich, Jonathan, and Sy laugh]. I just, I was more just trying to highlight: I do not think that that's a connection that a lot of people make, right. Spiritual disciplines and racial justice- like so many people separate out those things.  

Rich Villodas: Well, yeah, absolutely. And one of the tasks that I was trying to do in, I mean, just holding these values together is [00:06:00] to resist what I call formational compartmentalization in which we fragment and separate aspects of discipleship, aspects of life in Christ, aspects of spiritual formation, that need to belong together but for whatever reason are often separated and compartmentalized. So that was my way of also saying no, these things belong together, not in different books, but really in one book in this way.  

Sy Hoekstra: So you mentioned the diversity of your church along a couple of different axes, but one of them that I think some people might be interested in is that you have political diversity. You have both pro- and anti-Trumpers that have been in your pews. And I think a lot of pastors would be interested to know how it is that you preach about discipling people out of white supremacy and Christian nationalism in that context, without, frankly, losing the Trump supporters. [00:07:00] So could you tell us what your approach is when you're doing that?  

Rich Villodas: Um, who said I wasn't losing Trump supporters? [chuckles]  

Sy Hoekstra: Without losing all the Trump supporters. 

Rich Villodas: That's right. I'm not losing all of them because there's plenty that remain, and there are some who have left, which has made 2020 very difficult for me pastorally and relationally and emotionally. You know, on one level, my addressing of the gospel and politics in such a diverse political space- now I've not done this kind of research to get empirical data on this- but my hunch, my pastoral hunch, is that 30% of our church, give or take, voted for Trump; 30% of our church, give or take, voted for Biden; 20 or so percent of our church abstained; and another 20% probably [00:08:00] wrote someone else in. And so that gives you kind of a bit of the spectrum of where people are at in our congregation.  

For me, I've tried to do a couple of things. I have not done this all successfully. I mean, I think I've had some good days and I've had some things that I've done that could be done differently. But at the core of it, I'm trying to, number one, be faithful to my understanding of what the gospel is. And so that is the foundation of everything I'm doing. And my working definition of the gospel is that the gospel is the good news that the Kingdom of God has come near in Jesus Christ and in his life, death, resurrection, and enthronement the powers of sin and death no longer have the last word. 

And so wherever there are manifestations of sin and death, I am here to announce that those things are no match for the gospel and we want to now witness to that, which means [00:09:00] speaking against those powers of sin and death. And so for me, it's a matter of gospel faithfulness. It's also a matter of pastoral conscience and conviction where I want to live from that place, yet at the same time, I want to be emotionally connected to the people in my congregation.  

So what people do not see- they see the sermons, but they don't see the Zoom conversations. They see the tweets, but they don't see the phone calls I'm making to people who I know see the world very differently than I do. And at the same time, I'm trying to ask questions and be curious and understand why they vote for who they vote for in the way that they do.  

At the same time, we have lost people who have supported Donald Trump. And so I don't know that there's any easy way around it, except normalizing the difficulty of it and trying to remain close to myself and my own conscience as the pastoral and spiritual leader of our [00:10:00] congregation. While at the same time, doing my best to remain emotionally close to people.  

So it's a very difficult, delicate, emotionally draining dance. And I don't know if there's any other way to do it, but to go down that route.  

So I'll just say lastly here in response to this question, family systems theory has been very important to me in my own development as a as a husband, as a father, and as a pastor. And at the core of family systems is self-differentiation, which is exactly what I just said, remaining close to myself and remaining close to others in times of high anxiety, and resisting the polar opposite poles of cutting people off or being enmeshed in them. I have to do that hard work consistently so as to preach in a way that my conscience is clear, and at the same time, I'm doing my best to remain emotionally close to people I love  

Jonathan Walton: Full disclosure, Pastor Rich is my pastor when I say “Pastor Rich.” So I [00:11:00] was just going to be straight up [laughs]. So I am biased that I deeply respect the leadership and what you do as a pastor and a leader and as a shepherd of a diverse group of sheep. And so I'm wondering, as you were talking about, you know, holding onto yourself while remaining close to people emotionally, while communicating across difference, what does that look like when you're trying to stay emotionally close to someone, but going across difference, but communicating this is an issue of salvation, an issue of the gospel, and something at the core of our faith?  

Rich Villodas: On a day to day, what I experience, I mean, the only thing I can control is what I say and how I say it. Which means at certain points, I'm going to maybe be perceived as saying things that are insensitive, judgmental, [00:12:00] blaming. So whenever I, for example, whenever I say the phrase “white supremacy” or “whiteness” or “white normativity,” the number of emails that I get from people in our church… And just to be clear, there are not a lot of white people in our church. So I mean, I would say, you know, 12% maybe of our church is white. New Life has changed significantly over the years. So I'm getting emails from Puerto Rican's, I'm getting emails from Chinese Americans, I'm getting emails from first and second generation Koreans, you know? So it's not the simple black and white thing. 

So what does this look like on a daily basis? I can control what I say, what I tweet, but there are a lot of very challenging conversations that I'm having with people. I think Jonathan, for me, I mean, the only thing I could say is this is the expansive view of the gospel that I [00:13:00] have. Which for me transcends, you know, matters of just personal salvation, matters of atonement theory, matters of a post-mortem existence when we die. The Kingdom of God has come in Jesus Christ.  

What does it look like? It looks like lots of anxiety. What does it look like? It looks like lots of me disappointing a lot of people. What does it look like? It looks like people leaving the church, and I find out three to four months later through somebody else. I can only pay attention to what I believe God has entrusted me with as the shepherd of this congregation.  

Jonathan Walton: The thing that I deeply would like for parishioners to understand and for lay people to understand, cause the way that Christianity in America is set up is that there's one person playing and we're all spectating, right? And it sets up that type of like spiritual consumption, but then also the subsequent judgment of the product that I've just received, [00:14:00] right. And what I would hope to do in this conversation, in podcasts, in the way that we lead- and I think you model this and other leaders as well- is that your people engage as whole people with other broken people trying to follow a perfect Jesus, right.  

And the follow-up question would be are there any tangible costs or situations that you can point to that we just don't see that could maybe inspire compassion, could maybe inspire understanding and empathy for that person who's sitting in the church about to send that snarky email to say, “I'm actually emailing a human”? 

Rich Villodas: The cost that I, I mean here's a few of them: having many different moments in a given year, sometimes weeks, where I cannot catch a satisfying breath because of the level of anxiety that I'm carrying because of [00:15:00] so many people who are, uh, who see the world different than I do, and are saying harsh things, or judgmental things, or making lots of assumptions about who I am. 

For example, I mean, there was a number of churches that organized a prayer protest after George Floyd's murder. And, you know, New Life was one of them. And I, you know, I prayed at the event. I marched down Queens Boulevard and to get email- you know, there was a picture where my kids had a Black Lives Matter sign that they were holding on to- and to get emails from a couple of congregants who were now roping in my children in their comments that they were holding on, holding up Black Lives Matter signs and now they have something to say about my children. You know, people don't see that.  

People don't see the level of [00:16:00] assumptions that people have that, because I might say one thing they have now interpreted that as this is what you mean across the board. And much of the- which might be strange for people who are outside of our context- much of the biggest points of stress are, is around racism at New Life Fellowship Church for me as the lead pastor. 

Which you would think, “Wow, you guys are 75 nations represented. There's so much diversity. The diversity is reflected on every level of the church. Wow, you guys must be having a great time!” Not really [chuckles]. And so, and I love the congregation. I love the beauty of our church, but when you start, when you start talking about powers and principalities, like matters of white supremacy, the demons are going to manifest and the struggle is going to intensify, and the anxiety is going to persist. And so what's the cost that I pay? Well, there are times where I cannot find a satisfying [00:17:00] breath in a given week because my physiology now has now been impacted because of my anxiety. 

So that's what lots of people don't see, but those are some of the costs, minimal costs, you know, at least that I experience on a month-to-month basis, depending on what's happening in the life of our country and our nation.  

Jonathan Walton: Thank you for being willing to expound and engage on that. I really appreciate it and I, I'm hoping that it's not more costly for you to talk about it. And then also, I hope it's helpful for people to, to actually hear that making these decisions is costly, not performative.  

Rich Villodas: Right. Yeah.  

I wish I could just preach a sermon on, what? Uh, John chapter three, and just talk about Nicodemus [Rich and Jonathan chuckle] the whole time and not have to worry about what's happening in the… I wish I could just do that. That would be [00:18:00] awesome. I mean, I'd get less emails. It'd be wonderful. And at the same time, I feel like God has entrusted me with a particular context and congregation, and I need to steward the gospel in that way. But boy, I wish I could just talk about Nicodemus and nothing else. That'd be nice. 

Sy Hoekstra: Well, one other thing I wanted to say, I don't want us, I don't want to flatten or ignore, or move past the ways that these things are so difficult for you, but I also just keep thinking, like, that's how Jesus did his ministry. It was not easy. It was a huge mess. He lost tons of people in the process, pretty much everyone. And, you know, ended up to the point where he was, you know, sweating blood in the Garden of Gethsemane. Which is not to say, I don't want to like glorify suffering or anything like that, right. I just, I'm sitting here thinking just how much more like Jesus could the church have looked over the [00:19:00] last five years 

Rich Villodas: Yes.  

Sy Hoekstra: if every pastor in America was thinking this way? Like it's just, it's sort of mind-boggling and I'm just glad that you're doing it.  

Rich Villodas: No, absolutely. And I get it. When I think about what I am attempting to do and what many other pastors have done better than I have. I mean, Dallas Willard said, you know, when Jesus died on the cross, he didn't do it so we didn't have to, he did it so we could join him.  

Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. 

Rich Villodas: And so, when I think about the lack of satisfying breaths that I get and the anxiety that I have that, “Oh, I gotta have another conversation with someone in our congregation this week about this matter here.” For me, I recognize, I believe I'm being faithful to the way of Jesus and his Kingdom, which in turn means I'm going to experience some of the things that Jesus experienced. 

I want to be, I don't know if I've been able to get to the point like Paul, where Paul, the Apostle Paul says that I count it all joy or a [00:20:00] privilege to suffer like Christ has, or James says count it all joy when you fall into all kinds of tests. I don't know if I've gotten to that point, but that is definitely on my mind when I think about some of these things. 

Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. Can I ask, was there a moment at some point in the last several years where you realized that you, as a leader, had to step out and lead in this kind of anti-racist way, despite what it might and did cost you?  

Rich Villodas: Oh yeah. The point for me was after Ferguson. That was the, that was the point for me that something shifted in my, so we're talking now 2014, I believe? 2015. Where, you know, the shooting of Michael Brown, the killing of Michael Brown, the Ferguson riots and such and protest. [00:21:00] That was the moment for me, where something awakened pastorally.  

Now, you have to understand my seminary education exposed me to theology that was not just evangelical. I mean, I was reading James Cone. I was reading Gustavo Gutiérrez. I was reading liberation theology. I was reading and exposing myself to all kinds of theologies of justice. At the same time, so that stuff was in me, but then something happened, and after Ferguson- where I think it happened for a lot of people actually- where something was awakened in me. 

And I said, I need to begin to address this. And then there was one, it might've been 2015, I preached a sermon on- I came back from a sabbatical, you know, being away for a summer, for a month- and I preached a sermon on justice. And there was a different tone and tenor to my sermon. I just knew something had clicked in my preaching that day [00:22:00] that has changed ever since. But that's the time that for me, marks a shift in my thinking, in my pastoring, in how I was going to apply the theology that I had come to believe in.  

Jonathan Walton: In the midst of those changes happening for you, what were some of the spiritual practices, some of the things that brought you joy, that kept you in Christ and not in the world?  

Rich Villodas: Yeah, I think of probably three to four kinds of relationships, more than anything else, that kept me grounded. You know, being able to, I think there was a shift in me in which I began to externalize some of my own anxiety to my wife, Rosie, in ways that I hadn't done before, inviting her into my interior world. And that, that came at the advice of a [00:23:00] therapist that I have seen over the last few years, seasonally. I tend to go whenever I get criticized, whenever I'm in a difficult season, I very easily go into what I term “the hole.” And in order to get out of the hole, what I've discovered is I need to learn how to externalize certain things. And so Rosie being the first relationship and relating to her differently than I had in previous years was really important.  

Additionally, I reached out to three other pastor friends of mine in similar contexts, leading similar sized churches around the country, and I just knew I needed a monthly space of 90 minutes, and they needed it as well, to talk about the pain, to talk about the anxiety, the challenges, the questions. In 2020, we usually began our monthly meeting with, “So who left your church this month?” You know, so having [00:24:00] a space to process with them was, it was really important.  

You know, and third, you know, if you're looking at it in concentric circles, you know, my wife is in the middle, I have a close network of three other friends that I meet with for 90 minutes each month, a therapist, a spiritual director. These are the relationships that have sustained my joy, ultimately, and over the years.  

And then prior to the pandemic, I remember my therapist telling me, “Rich, what are the life-giving activities that you love?” And for me, I love sports. I love basketball and I never forgot the day when I said, “Basketball.” He goes, “Well, when was the last time you played ball?” I said, “Well, it's been a long time.” He said, “Well, why don't you, once a week, middle of the day, especially if it's nice outside, go to the nearby, the nearest court you can find and play.” And I thought, “I can't do that.” Now, I manage my own schedule. I do whatever I want with my schedule. And for whatever reason, I was like, “No, I can't do [00:25:00] that. No way.” And he said, “Well, give it a shot.” And I began to do that just every Thursday or so, it was, middle of the day, got my ball and my trunks, I'm going to go for an hour and shoot some hoops. And it was amazing how the simplicity of that little activity brought me great joy that allowed me to lead and preach and live from a different place.  

Sy Hoekstra: So if I could just go back to something that we touched on earlier, but I don't think we made entirely explicit. You say in your book that you think of the gospel as including soteriology, but not just being limited to it. Can you talk a little bit more about what you mean by that?  

Rich Villodas: Yeah, the gospel for me is not about a transaction. The gospel for me is about a person; it's about Jesus Christ and what he has done for us. And so ultimately it's about his lordship, his kingship, of which salvation is a beautiful and [00:26:00] primary fruit, but not just the salvation of our individual lives, the salvation of the cosmos, the salvation of the world. And so to say the good news, what is the good news? The good news is not a what; the good news is a who. It is a person in Jesus. He is our good news. And I think if we begin from that place, the gospel moves from being anthropocentric, it moves from being human-centered, me-centered, it moves from being transactional, it moves from being relegated to an atonement theory, relegated to a post-mortem existence. 

The good news is about Jesus Christ. And if we begin there with he is our good news and his kingdom is our good news, at that point we can find ourselves living faithfully in the world. So I love, listen, I want people, I want as many people to be rescued personally, by the saving love of Jesus. I, you know, I experienced that, some [00:27:00] 22 years ago, not just me, 14 other family members on one night in a storefront Latino Pentecostal church in East New York, Brooklyn, experienced the saving love of Jesus Christ. I want as many people to experience that. And at the same time, I recognize that's not the core of the gospel. The core of the gospel is a person; it's Jesus Christ and everything else flows from that place.  

Sy Hoekstra: One of the things, as I was kind of on my own journey away from a hyper doctrinally-focused, abstracted evangelical type of faith was that statement by Jesus when he says, “I am the way, the truth, and the life.” You know, just breaking down the second part of that, someone saying, “I am the truth” makes no sense to a theology that thinks of truth as a propositional statement to which you assent mentally. And I just so resonate with that because that was, I think one of the things that sort of shook me out of my thinking and went well, this makes [00:28:00] no sense with the faith that I have learned. So what do I need to rethink here?  

Rich Villodas: Hmm, that's really well said, Sy.  

Jonathan Walton: Something actually that stood out to me in the book and I was reminded of as you were talking, is that it's relationships that, that carry us through this nonsense, right. Our relationship with Jesus, our relationship with other people, our relationship towards ourselves. What are some steps that we can take- and when I say we, I mean followers of Jesus, I mean men towards women, women towards men, I mean the sheep of God- to cultivate intimacy, to connect with others in more genuine and authentic ways so that we can actually partner more with each other and with God to participate, as Jon Tyson would say, in the renewal of all things?  

Rich Villodas: You know, I tend to root [00:29:00] everything in, you know, theological convictions. And so that, that question for me, really at its core is theological. And I think it begins with, you know, what does it mean to be human? You know, I read something, I think it was yesterday, that said something along the lines of, “You can be strong alone, you can be successful alone, you can persevere alone, but you can't be human alone.” And I think that's true. I think to be human is not simply about, you know, to be made in the image of God is not simply about rationality and having agency and feelings and such. I think that’s part of it. But at the core of being human and developing deeper into my humanity is a recognition that I am part of something bigger than myself, that I [00:30:00] belong to my neighbor, that I am intrinsically connected, that my very human flourishing, and emotional flourishing, and relational flourishing must happen in the context of these life-giving relationships. 

So I think if that is the theological starting point, which I believe it is, I think at that point now the question becomes, how do I open myself up to this? Now in order to do that, I do think there is often lots of interior work that must be accomplished before we can move close to people. 

Part of the chapters on interior examination is to recognize the ways that we have been wounded, the ways that we are still carrying big “T” trauma and small “t” traumas in our bodies and in our minds that keep us from moving close to others. And so for me, any kind of movement towards people and relationships for the sake of my own health and their own health, I think must begin with some [00:31:00] of the obstacles that get in the way. 

What are the messages from our families of origin that have contributed to greater fragmentation and disintegration? And how can I now name those and in the name of Jesus and through the power of the Holy spirit and in the context of supporting relationships begin to move out of this so that I can move close to people and begin to be more vulnerable and more open? But so much of what blocks us are the things beneath the surface that we don't see. 

So Jonathan, the long-winded answer for me is I think, I do believe, how do we understand what it means to be human from a theological perspective is really important. And then what are the formational and emotional areas/ blockages that are in the way that must be named and identified so that we can begin to move close to people? 

So for me, that sounds like a [00:32:00] lot of just talk, but I do think that's some of the starting points to… So like, for example, I'll just be very clear: me moving towards three other pastors and saying… for me, came out of a place of vulnerability. My email was, “I recognize how lonely it can be for me as a lead pastor, where a lot of people cannot identify with the various pressures that I have. I need other people in a similar space. Would you be open to meeting once a month?” For me, that's a vulnerable question. And the answer is like, “Yeah, I've been waiting for someone to email me!” you know? So that's what they're saying on their end. But I do believe it starts theologically in naming some of the blockages that often get in the way.  

Jonathan Walton: Again, I just appreciate the ability and willingness to name the limitations, call them out, and then the courage to actually deal with those things. Because I think the, um, in the work that I've done, [00:33:00] the amount of spiritual runoff that people have to deal with when we don't do that as leaders, right? So, one of the things that causes me great anxiety and keeps me up at night is conversations that I have with alumni of the work that I do, and they have the same idols that I had, sometimes exponentially more so. And so I had instituted a Sabbath for our two-month residential discipleship program and alumni came by and was like, what are they doing? Why are they resting? And I just looked at him and I was like, “Oh Lord, have mercy.” You know, he didn't get that. He, I hadn't been formed and discipled in a way that made rest a priority and obeyed the fourth commandment, right. Like it was… Yeah. And so the thoughts of that happening cause me great anxiety, and so for someone to express what that looks like to [00:34:00] deal with it, reach out, I think is really helpful for me and I hope encouraging to people who are listening to be able to do similar work.  

Rich Villodas: Yeah. Yeah. You know, for me, this is… Jonathan, what you're naming there is for me an ongoing reality that I am facing. You know, I have discovered there's parts of me that I thought were beyond, you know, the stress or anxiety that I'm feeling. I thought, “Why, why am I feeling what I am feeling?” And part of it is there's still lots of residue of areas of brokenness and, and wounding that I still need to address. And so, just a couple of weeks ago, I had, again, another very challenging conversation over zoom with a long-time congregant. And I was very anxious about just the nature of the conversation and found [00:35:00] myself just again, not getting a satisfying breath.  

And then I sat down for 45 minutes to do some interior examination, and I discovered what was at the core of what I was feeling. And for me- it sounds so simple, but I think this is some of the work that we're all called to do on some level, especially leaders- there were things that I was believing and in a subterranean kind of level that theologically I know is not true and psychologically and rationally, I know it's not true, but it's been attached to my soul on such a level that it's hard for me to escape. And so I was asking myself, “Why am I so anxious about this conversation? What's going on in me?” And after 45 minutes, I landed on about eight different messages that are in me as I was preparing to have this conversation. And these were the messages, essentially: people disagreeing with me [00:36:00] means I'm a bad leader. Now, I know that's not true. People disagreed with Jesus. Not only did they disagree, they crucified him, and he's the best leader the world has ever seen.  

You know, another message: if we're not on the same page, I'm doing something wrong as a leader. You know, not true. Paul and the apostles often didn't see eye to eye, and he's one of the most important leaders of the church. You know, I'm causing division by bringing up delicate issues- that was in my mind. Things will end wrong and it'll be my fault- that was in my mind. I need you to like me for me to be okay- that's in my mind. I need you to agree with me, for me to be okay- that's in my mind. People who leave the church expose my deficiencies in leadership. This is everything I'm carrying into that conversation.  

Now, unless I'm able to sit down in the presence of God, and compassionately and curiously search my own soul through the Spirit [00:37:00] to begin to pull out some of these messages, we're going to have a hard time moving forward. So for me, I had to do that work. And that's not one of those stories of, “Oh, 10 years ago, I had to have a hard conversation, and I asked myself these eight questions.” No, it was like two weeks ago, I had to have this conversation and ask myself these questions. So this is the difficult work of following Jesus and being a leader in, you know, in the world.  

Sy Hoekstra: I, something that's just occurring to me as I listen to both of you talking about this is, you know, both of you are people who are very focused and have thought a ton about emotional and mental health and spiritual disciplines. And yet, so you're also people who are advocating, speaking very boldly and clearly about idols and things that are wrong and trying to create change in your contexts. And the reason that I point that out is I think there are [00:38:00] probably some listeners who have a, like a little bit of an aversion, even if it's just a lingering one, to trying to implement ideas of emotional health in a community where it requires reaching out consistently and in a way that causes you pain, to people who question your humanity, and you know, that that is sort of a giving into the ideology that you're trying to fight, or it's like dealing with, you know, it could make you like a moderate in the way that Dr. King decried, something like that, right. So I don't know if any of you have, either of you have any thoughts about that, it just, it strikes me that there are some people who might see what you're doing as impossible or just difficult, maybe too difficult. Does that make sense?  

Rich Villodas: Yeah. And you know, for me, I think, Sy, as I understand it, as I hear [00:39:00] you, what I hear is, you know, the reason that I try to, and at New Life, we try to hold these together, and, you know, reject this type of formational compartmentalization is, the reason I give myself to this kind of interiority and emotional health is not simply for the sake of my own self-regulation and for the sake of my own self-awareness. The goal is to be a more loving presence in the world. And whether that love is expressed in intimacy with my wife or children, or whether it's expressed in, you know, naming policies that are causing dehumanization and marginalization in the world, I do these things not just so I can feel better about myself, that’s so I can love more powerfully in the world.  

People who tend to view emotional health as simply needing to [00:40:00] sustain the work that I'm doing for the sake of maintaining the status quo, you know, that's not what I'm trying to do here. I'm trying to love in a way that's powerful, that's individual, interpersonal, and institutional. But I can see the gravitational pull where people say these two things cannot coexist in this way.  

Sy Hoekstra: It sounds like though, your answer a little bit is there's always going to be an abundance of love in God. It's not a zero-sum game; you put it towards this, you put it towards that. You're trying to cultivate yourself and your heart in a way that you can live in the abundant love of God more fully. 

Rich Villodas: Absolutely. In all of its manifestations. That's without question.  

Jonathan Walton: I have a forming thought that I rarely say out loud, but I'm just wondering what you guys are thinking. So, as you said that, Sy, I think there are a couple of things that I've experienced pushback about that, that [00:41:00] kind of were sparked by what you said. So, pursuing emotional health and, you know, as I would phrase like emotionally healthy activism; prayerful resistance; sustainable, active love in this world is a sacred work and a holy work. So let's say a white person or a racially assigned Chinese or Korean or Asian American person, like comes up to me and says like, can we have a conversation? I think that is a holy invitation. That's an invitation to discipleship. It's not, I have to educate them about their supremacy or their presuppositions, right.  

Sy Hoekstra: Wait, why in this scenario are they coming to talk to you?  

Jonathan Walton: Well, I think, you know, I'm a Black American, and so they, you know, when someone says like, “I'm going to go ask my Black friend,” I turn into that Black friend a lot of times. And so [00:42:00] I actually have boundaries around this, whether it's like a personal thing, or a professional thing, or, you know, people from the past. To do this work, you know, for me, second Corinthians chapter five, “We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors as though he was making his appeal through us. I implore you on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God,” where we want to be ambassadors of, or ministers of reconciliation, if that is my position in this conversation, especially when it comes to racial justice, this is a moment where Jesus is present. It's not a moment for me to be self-preserving or pursue a type of self-actualization through this conversation. 

Sy Hoekstra: But you also have boundaries, you just said, around these types of questions. So sometimes it is a moment for self-preservation.  

Jonathan Walton: Well, it's actually not self-preservation because it's not about preserving myself. It's about, what would be the word? It's not about self-[00:43:00]protection. I think it's about resisting the urge to hurry, for the sake of what I might believe needs to happen in this conversation. 

So for example, I think one of the marks of being an emotionally unhealthy activist and an emotionally unhealthy person who is engaged in consistent resistance work is to do things now. Like if I don't respond to this email or respond to this phone call or meet with this person as soon as they need me to, what is going to happen, right? 

And if I believe that I'm the savior in that situation, or I'm the only person that can communicate with them in that situation, or the only one that can be the minister of truth and reconciliation in that moment, then I've stepped into the tomb and taken up something that I'm not supposed to, right. [00:44:00] So I think for me, when I slow down, I'm actually, I have to re-center Jesus and de-center me so that I can come in, on my knees, reliant on Jesus, as opposed to relying on the strategies that I've created or the books that I've read to convince this person of whatever their stuff is. Cause I haven't grounded myself yet.  

So it doesn't feel like self-protection. But it does feel like preparation for sure. Like the song, “Lord prepare me to be a sanctuary,” right. So when I sit across from this person there's room for the Holy spirit and not my education, not just my education. 

I don't know what Pastor Rich thinks about that…  

Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. Pastor, I guess maybe to what degree do you think there is room to think that way in terms of like, I'm going to disengage with this person, because I know this is going to be an extremely painful conversation and I just need to deal with my own [00:45:00] mental health at this moment?  

Rich Villodas: For me as a pastor, I have to wrestle with the various, the spectrum of interest or the level of engagement that people want to have on this. For some people, they come very curious and humble and willing to learn and ask questions. And then for some, they're not there to ask questions. They're there to tell me, you know, how I should be thinking, how I should be preaching, et cetera.  

For people who come with humility and a willingness to learn and ask questions- and, you know, and I'm asking questions, they're asking questions, there's a sense of mutuality there- I'm very much open to it. When people are coming to me with very fixed ideas… Now, how do you know sometimes? You don't know that, so sometimes it's a matter of, sure, I'll meet and then go, “I don't think I'm going to meet again with that person,” because it's pretty clear that they have a particular end in mind of my own conversion, namely, [00:46:00] and not in the conversation, right. So I've had to put up plenty of boundaries to say, “Hey Pastor Rich, can we meet again?” and that first meeting was a train wreck, and for me, I'm saying, “No, I don't think so. And here's why…”  

Now, I recognize in my context, there's power differentials. I'm the pastor of the church. I hold the most amount of spiritual power in that way. And so I could say, “No, we're not going to do that.” But, the people that I am creating lots of space for are for people who genuinely have questions. Now, you don't really know them until you meet with them. But I've had to, there's plenty of people that I have to say, you know, I don't think I have the margin to have a conversation because what we're having is not a conversation. It's just you telling me how I should be thinking. And so I'm not going to give myself to that. 

Sy Hoekstra: We're out of time, unfortunately, but is there anything, Pastor, that you want to plug apart from, obviously, the book, The Deeply [00:47:00] Formed Life, or anywhere that you would like people to follow you?  

Rich Villodas: Yeah. If folks are interested in what I'm up to, they can go to richvillodas.com where you could see what's happening with The Deeply Formed Life, as well as future writing projects that I'm currently involved in, as well as on social media. Social media is often where I'm testing out [chuckles] sermon content and seeing what works and what does not. And so @richvillodas on Instagram and on Twitter is usually where I'm hanging out.  

Sy Hoekstra: Awesome. Thank you so much for joining us today.  

Rich Villodas: Thanks guys. All the best to you with this podcast. 

Sy Hoekstra/Jonathan Walton: Thank you!  

[“Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in briefly, then fades out.] 

Suzie Lahoud: Thanks so much for joining us. Remember to subscribe to this show and rate and review wherever you're listening from. Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra and our podcast art is by Jacqueline Tam. Follow us on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook @KTF Press. Join us [00:48:00] next week for our interview with Sandra Maria Van Opstal. 

[“Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades back in. Lyrics: “Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” Song fades out.]  

Suzie Lahoud: I'm Suzie Lahoud here with Jonathan Walton and Sy Hookstra.  

Sy Hoekstra: Wait, how did you just say my last name? [laughs]  

Suzie Lahoud: Isn't it Hookstra?  

Sy Hoekstra: Hoekstra.  

Jonathan Walton: [laughs]  

Suzie Lahoud: I get so confused, Sy… 

Sy Hoekstra: Who, who, who. W-H-O. Who-k-stra.  

Suzie Lahoud: Oh, cause I, ah, I confused it in my head…  

Jonathan Walton: [in hysterics] I’m so sorry. I [stifling a laugh]…You're doing great though!  

Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, you are. It all sounds very good.  

Suzie Lahoud: Jonathan’s trying not to laugh at me, that’s what Jonathan’s saying… [laughing]  

Jonathan Walton: Because I didn't want to like, you know… 

Suzie Lahoud: [00:49:00] Maybe it would be easier if I did it in a Russian accent… 

Jonathan Walton: [laughs] Do it in a Russian accent just for… 

Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, just to like, loosen yourself up. 

Suzie Lahoud: Okay. Yalla. I'm going to do it again… I'm Suzie Lahoud here with Jonathan Walton and Sy Hoekstra.  

Sy Hoekstra: [in a thick Russian accent] Today we have interview with Rich Villodas. 

Jonathan Walton: [laughs loudly] 

Sy Hoekstra: No, that was perfect, Suzie. We got it.

The three hosts introduce ourselves, talk about what we mean when we say we are leaving colonized faith for the Kingdom of God, why we want to center and elevate marginalized voices, and where we are going from here. 

Shake the Dust is a podcast of KTF Press. Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Find transcripts of this show, sign up for our free mailing list, and subscribe to our blog at KTFPress.com. 

Hosts  

Jonathan Walton – follow him on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter.  

Suzie Lahoud – follow her on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter.  

Sy Hoekstra – follow him on Twitter.  

Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra – listen to the whole song on Spotify. 

Our podcast art is by Jacqueline Tam – follow her and see her other work on Instagram.  

Shake the Dust is produced and edited by Sy Hoekstra. 

Questions about anything you heard on the show? Write to [email protected] and we may answer your question on a future episode.

Transcript 

[00:00:00] Jonathan Walton: I would not be a believer if it was not for the Kingdom of God and the descriptions that Jesus gives in the gospels. When he says like, come unto me all who are heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. When he describes what it will look like for no one to hunger and thirst anymore. When Luke 14, where he lays out, you know, this banquet and that all people are invited, and this is images of God through Christ by the power of the Spirit, like constantly uplifting oppressed people and not just uplifting, oppressed people and leaving them where they're at, but like sending them on their way and then saying I'm coming back, cause I'm gone to prepare a place for you.

On the flip side of that, I think it is depressing to me how many people don't want that. What they actually want is a faith that keeps the systems in place and keeps the structures in place and doesn't want to be canceled or called out or held accountable to anyone. And I think [00:01:00] that is worth shaking the dust off and leaving. 

[The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/That it will roll in abundance/ And that you’re building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.]  

Sy Hoekstra: Welcome to Shake the Dust, leaving colonized faith for the Kingdom of God, a podcast of KTF Press. My name is Sy Hoekstra. I'm here with Jonathan Walton and Suzie Lahoud, and we are so excited to have you here with us for our very first episode. We're going to introduce ourselves briefly and then we're going to talk a little bit about what this show is all about, what it means when we say leaving colonized faith for the Kingdom of God, why we chose our title, uh, and what we're going to be doing. And we are just very excited to have you on board and for you to hear this discussion today.  

Um, so can, uh, let's, let's start off with you, Jonathan. Can you give the people a brief introduction to Jonathan Walton.  

Jonathan Walton: Uh,   

Sy Hoekstra: And when I say brief, I really mean a few minutes.  

[00:02:00] Jonathan Walton: [laughing] I can, I can, I am capable of that. Um, my name is Jonathan Walton, um, and I am, I'm just grateful to be a part of this project for one. Um, I am from, uh, a small, small rural town called Brodnax, Virginia. It's in South Central Virginia, about five miles from the border of North Carolina. And, um, I came to Columbia University as a student in 2004 when I graduated from high school. And it was the first time I'd ever been north of Richmond. 

Um, and life changed a lot. And I think my life is very much framed by, I think extreme realities. Um, I think, you know, a town of 369 people then coming to the largest city in the country, having never flown on a plane or traveled, um, extensively until I was 18 to like, by the time I [00:03:00] was, I think 23, I'd counted like 21 flights around the country performing and speaking and teaching and leading different things.  

Sy Hoekstra: Performing what Jonathan?  

Jonathan Walton: Oh, well, the reason I came to Columbia is not because I was an athlete contrary to all the hundreds of people who asked me that while I was on campus [laughs]. Um, I was there because I had written a book and was on academic scholarship, uh, funded by John Kluge. 

And so, um, poetry is what got me out of Southern Virginia and, um, continues to animate my life and sustain it in ways that are deep and helpful. And then this last decade I've spent on staff with InterVarsity Christian Fellowship, um, and living in New York post-college with, in a life that I didn't imagine for myself, but am deeply appreciative of my wife, my two daughters, um, and the service that I get to.... to... which I thought [00:04:00] was just going to be for college students, but has ended up, um, being for the church writ large as people, um, experience the world and then desire to be formed by God, to bear witness to him in a more powerful way. Ah, especially, um, as you know, race-based, class-based, gender-based hierarchy, um, rules our world. And so I would love for Jesus to, to break into that and I'm glad to be a part of that.  

Sy Hoekstra: What do you do now?  

Jonathan Walton: Well, I am on staff with InterVarsity and what that looks like right now is that I am a Senior Resource Specialist with Intervarsity in the Multiethnic Initiatives department. So a hundred percent of my time post-COVID is spent developing resources, um, to help people respond to the, what I would call white American folk religion. Um, this race-based, class-based, gender-based hierarchy that, um, operates and masquerades as, uh, faithfulness to Jesus. And so I get to every [00:05:00] day, think about what it looks like to, um, develop resources and experiences that help people leave colonized faith for the Kingdom of God, which is why, you know, I get to do that with KTF as well in a more focused way. Um, because I love books and I love media and I love the creation and distribution and production of it. And, um, I'm really, really hopeful that I'm able to continue to do that inside and outside of the work that I do with InterVarsity.  

Sy Hoekstra: You're also a published author with InterVarsity Press, which I feel like we should talk about. White American Folk Religion, if you're thinking, "Hmm, what is that thing that Jonathan briefly described?" we will talk about it at length. He also wrote a whole book about it- 12 Lies That Hold America Captive: And the Truth That Sets Us Free. Is that right?  

Jonathan Walton: That's exactly right.  

Sy Hoekstra: I did it.  

Jonathan Walton: Congratulations [chuckling].  

Sy Hoekstra: Okay. Um, Suzie, tell the people who Suzie Lahoud is.  

Suzie Lahoud: Hi. Yeah, I'm Suzie Lahoud. I'm also super grateful to be doing this, [00:06:00] mostly just to be able to have weekly conversations with you guys and the incredible guests that we're going to be having on this show and I'm grateful for the friendship, um, that that has developed with you all. Um, for, for those of you who don't know, Jonathan and Sy have been buddies since college, and I feel like I kind of got adopted into that just in this past year or so. Yeah.  

Sy Hoekstra: For sure. 

Suzie Lahoud: So as far as my background, uh, I am originally from the US. I was born in Boston, Massachusetts, but when I was eight years old, my family moved overseas to Uzbekistan. 

My parents were missionaries there. My dad also started an NGO that did development work in Uzbekistan and Afghanistan. Um, so throughout high school, he was going back and forth into places like Kabul and Mazar-i-Sharif on a monthly basis. And yeah, had a lot of really incredible formative experiences in that time, and then came back to the US for university and went back [00:07:00] overseas after finishing my undergrad and ended up in the Middle East in Lebanon and met my future husband there.  

Felt like God was calling me to stick around there, so I ended up living in Lebanon for seven and a half years. And a lot of that time was spent doing relief work in response to the Syrian crisis. The war in Syria started my second year in Lebanon and so we started to see this massive influx of, of refugee families coming across the border and this unprecedented humanitarian need. 

And so, um, yeah, I'm grateful that I had a mentor who kind of plucked me up out of my grad school program and trained me in relief and development work. And so I was able to do that on the ground, um, through my job and then also in, in partnership with my local church. So that was my reality and my husband's reality for um, for the rest of our time in Lebanon and then felt called to come back to [00:08:00] the States in 2017, to continue my education at the Center for Middle Eastern Studies at Harvard. So did my Master's there and my husband and I are now still settled in the US in the Boston area with our 20 month-old, Nora, and my rapidly growing baby bump. So that's, that's something exciting on the horizon for us as well.  

Sy Hoekstra: Yes.  

Suzie Lahoud: Yeah.  

Sy Hoekstra: Just cause I know you're a humble person and you're not going to brag on yourself: you speak Arabic and Russian, right, fluently? Both of them?  

Suzie Lahoud: Yeah. Yeah. Those two.  

Sy Hoekstra: And other languages also, I think? Am I wrong about that?  

Suzie Lahoud: Um, I would say mostly Arabic and Russian. I have a little bit of Uzbek, um, and, and I'm trying to work on my French, but, um, yeah, definitely nowhere near proficiency/ fluency with those other ones. It's mostly those two.  

Sy Hoekstra: And then, I actually, I didn't ask John this, so we'll do this for both of you. Um, what did you study, Suzie? Both in undergrad and I know you've done Master's degrees also. 

[00:09:00] Suzie Lahoud: Yeah. So, um, undergrad, I, I pursued a double major in Russian and Middle Eastern Studies. Uh, so that's what, what first sparked my interest in the Middle East. And, um, yeah, it was fun cause I got to spend, with my Russian studies, it was studying Soviet history, but also just a lot of Russian literature. Um, so you know, a lot of Tolstoy, Dostoevsky, Turgenev, Pushkin. Um, so that was, that was fun. And then I have two Master's degrees. One is from the Arab Baptist Theological Seminary. It's actually a Master's in Religion in Middle Eastern Studies. So that was the degree that I completed while I was living in Lebanon. And, um, yeah, just at a, a local seminary. And then my Master's that I recently completed here, um, at Harvard.  

Sy Hoekstra: Which was in what?  

Suzie Lahoud: Middle Eastern Studies also. Yeah [laughs]. I'm one of those weird people that did two Master's degrees and then also in like some very similar things, although the [00:10:00] first one, because it was at a seminary again, it was focused on religion. So we were looking at, um, the history of Islam in the region, looking at the history of Christianity. So Eastern Christianity, which is really fascinating, and I think, um, even a lot of Christians don't know about that history. Uh, and so looking at the historical churches there and, um, you know, Muslim-Christian relations and peacebuilding, and also relief and development work, kind of all tied up together in that program. 

And then the second degree was more sort of, uh, I would say towards the political science side of things and international relations.  

Sy Hoekstra: Right. And Jonathan, your undergrad was Creative Writing. Your Master's was American Studies- is that right?  

Jonathan Walton: Yeah, my undergrad was Theater up until my senior year and then it changed.  

Sy Hoekstra: Oh, that's right! 

Jonathan Walton: It changed to Creative Writing because the program was offered and my graduate degree is from CUNY City College. Um, it's a, Master's in the Study of the [00:11:00] Americas. It's an interdisciplinary degree. And, um, I really got to focus on, um, an intellectual history of Jerry Falwell. So, um, I know that for many of you, that sounds so exciting. Um, and riveting even, but yeah, so I have a very, you know, an academic level understanding of Jerry Falwell's work.  

Um, and it is, um, I hope to continue that with a PhD in an American, in American studies, focusing on that. Um, and I also did a capstone project on, um, Jerry Falwell and his relations to political violence in El Salvador, Honduras, and Guatemala. 

Sy Hoekstra: And again, a subject about which we will continue to talk.  

Jonathan Walton: Yes. Yeah. And Sy, what about you?  

Sy Hoekstra: Oh, thanks for the question, Jonathan [Sy and Jonathan chuckle]. Um, so I was born in North Dakota, um, where my mom grew up and my dad, uh, went to high school and college, and then they lived for a few years after they got married. [00:12:00] I was born there.We moved very soon thereafter.  

A lot of my family has still lived there for a lot of my life so I go back a lot, but, um, uh, I grew up in a few different places in Michigan, Chicago, and New Jersey. I moved to New Jersey when I was, uh, not quite six and I had already been to three different places in Michigan and Chicago, all related to just my dad's job. 

Um, and then, so when I was. I'll pause in Michigan for a second. Cause when I was 15 months old, we were living in Ann Arbor and, um, I was diagnosed with retinal cancer. So, um, I had it in both eyes and they had to remove one of my eyes and then the other one, they treated with a laser, um, surgery. Basically, they just, they killed the tumor with a laser, essentially, is what happened. 

And, um, that treatment, not the tumor itself, but the laser left me with very little vision in that other eye. So I identify as blind. We'll get into the [00:13:00] complications of, um, what that means versus what people think it means at some other point, I'm sure. But I do have a little bit of, um, residual vision.  

When I entered into preschool, they put me into basically a school that was only for disabled children, and this was after, not long, but after the ADA was passed, long after the Rehabilitation Act was passed, like, when this shouldn't be happening anymore. But I was just placed into a school with disabled children of all different kinds of disabilities, and then, um, later when I got into kindergarten, my parents, in particular, my mom fought really hard to get me into, um, uh, you know, a mainstream kindergarten as we would call it. 

And that's kind of been a defining, uh, factor throughout my life is basically trying to prove to other people and to myself that I belong places, [00:14:00] which is, we will talk a lot more about this I'm sure. But that's an important thing to know about me. Uh, we moved to New Jersey. Then I was there from kindergarten through the end of seventh grade. And then I did eighth grade through 12th grade in Zurich, Switzerland also because of my dad's job, where I went to an international school. So I was speaking in English and, um, you know, learned German while I was there. Went to college in New York city, met Jonathan when I was 18, I guess, like my first orientation week of school. 

Jonathan Walton: Yes, sir. 

Sy Hoekstra: Um, yeah, right. Where I, where I also met, like, you know, several other lifelong friends and the woman I eventually married, so college is wild [laughs]. And, um, like all in that first week, literally.  

Anyways, I, um, studied history, mostly focused on American history while I was there. Uh, as well as German literature, just to like sort of keep up the German language, which sadly I'm not as good at as I used to be because I don't have any reason to speak it anymore. [00:15:00] Um, but, um, I then spent a year after college working for International Justice Mission, um, as an intern working with like their mobilizing students basically. Went to law school, um, did a lot of work, uh, in criminal law on both sides of the aisle, prosecution/ defense. We will talk more about that. Um, I, I did some work in disability rights too, like in education law. So basically the attorneys who, who frankly do the kind of thing that my mom did when I was, when I was a kid and, and, you know, fight for people to get the accommodations that they need to be in the least restrictive educational environment. 

Um, and then I did a few years working for a court for like a federal appeals court, um, as a, what's called a staff attorney, like working for the judges. So not like advocating for anyone, but, um, helping make decisions on certain kinds of cases. And then spent a few years as a public defender in the child welfare system. 

Um, I just [00:16:00] stopped doing that job in December, but I represented the parents who had neglect and abuse cases brought against them. I was a defense attorney in that situation. And that makes a lot of people go, how could you do that? Why would you do that? That's a terrible thing to do. And we will talk about that reaction and that horrible, horrible system more I'm sure, in future.  

All right. So now that we've given a bit of an introduction of ourselves, uh, let's talk about the tagline of our show, which is “leaving colonized faith for the Kingdom of God.” First of all, what do we mean when we talk about colonized faith?  

Jonathan Walton: Yeah, I think I'll go first, um, because I think the biggest thing for me in even being a part of this project was taking these big ideas and actually making them extremely practical because I believe that Jesus coming out of heaven and putting on flesh and wrapping himself in a body like ours is literally, like, a big idea, like [00:17:00] becoming like the hands and feet of God, right. And I think that's the call of discipleship is to take these large things and make them as, um, as useful in everyday as possible. And so I would say that colonized faith is literally the, the faith idea that manages the colony and the United States is a post-colonial project that is now taken on the role of an empire around the world. And I think if I was to, to put, um, uh, if colonization was a stool, it would have three prongs- it'd be race, gender, and class. And then the seat is a false version of Jesus and Christianity, a false representation of the divine.  

And so, um, I would say colonized faith is a race-based, class-based, gender-based hierarchy. Um, that is, uh, that masquerades as, um, the ultimate arbiter of all things good, just, and [00:18:00] beautiful. And so in the United States that looks like white Jesus downstream of post-colonial Europe, looks like false Jesus. And, um, we are constantly, I think, at, at odds with white supremacy, patriarchy and exploitative capitalism, um, or exploitative economic systems. 

Sy Hoekstra: Suzie, what do you think of when you think of colonized faith?  

Suzie Lahoud: Oh, man. I think what Jonathan said is about as good an answer as you're gonna get [Suzie and Sy chuckle]. Yeah, I think because, yeah, I mean, I think just like Jonathan said, you know, if you think about the, the colonial project, it's, it's a project rooted in white supremacy, um, that is inherently exploitative and dehumanizing, um, because it's all about yeah, placing, placing, profit over people and even over Creation. I think that's, that's something so important that's come out of sort of this, this emerging decolonization movement in [00:19:00] Christianity is voices like Dr. Randy Woodley, um, who talk about how we also need to reconnect with the earth with God's creation in, in all of its forms. Um, not just with our sense of humanity and upholding the Imago Dei. And, um, yeah, I think the way that that colonialism has seeped into our faith is again, I'm going to go back to Jonathan Walton, where he talks about White American Folk Religion. 

Um, yeah, again, I don't think I can expand much on what Jonathan said, cause he literally wrote the book on this, but um, yeah, I'll just say amen [laughs].  

Sy Hoekstra: So for me, when I think about it, I just think of like, there was a theology and a practice of our faith developed in the same context as colonialism designed to both accommodate and uphold a colonialist project that Europe was embarked on and the rest of the world and that America in a lot of ways continues. [00:20:00] And we'll talk about what that means, but yes, that's, that's kind of how I think of it really, really big zoomed out picture. And then I think a lot of the things that you guys said are like more concrete ways that that plays out. Does that make, would you guys agree with that?  

Jonathan Walton: Yeah, absolutely. And I would say there's a way that colonization, pervades every place of life. Um, which is why also I think the Kingdom of God, you know, competes and goes into every space. And so if we call for the Kingdom of God to be present in every portion and piece of our lives, we must remember that the enemy, the flesh, and the world are at, at, in those spaces too, right.  

And so, I would say like colonization, animates the intimacies of our lives. So how we speak to one another, who we think is valuable, what work we think is good, what jobs we would like to see ourselves in, like all of those things are downstream of, um, of this [00:21:00] project.  

Suzie Lahoud: Yeah. And I think too, um, Sy you're, you're absolutely right that, yeah, those are, those are big picture terms and big picture ideas. And I think part of the work that we're interested in, in yeah, hopefully contributing to through this podcast and other things is breaking that down to the everyday and the nitty-gritty, because I think, you know, when you talk about being transformed by the renewing of your mind, I think part of that is disentangling your faith from these ideas and these ideologies and, and that's so much easier said than done.  

Um, yeah, it's easy to speak in abstract terms, but I think it's when you get down to the ground level, what does racism look like in the everyday context? What does American imperialism in the Middle East look like in the everyday context? 

Um, what are the, the theological ideas and concepts and beliefs that prop that up and support that and, and seeing how, how insidious they are. And, um, how sometimes it's difficult to [00:22:00] identify on the surface. Um, and so I think having, having conversations around that are so important to, to help folks understand and for us to continue to understand how we can root those ideas out and root those idols out. And, um, yeah, separate the wheat from the chaff.  

Sy Hoekstra: So then let's talk about the second half of our little tagline here, um, “leaving colonized faith forthe Kingdom of God.” And, you know, specifically why, why we say that and why our title is Shake the Dust. What do those things mean to the two of you?  

Suzie Lahoud: I mean, I'll jump in on just the, the second part. Um, but when we talk about leaving colonized faith for the Kingdom of God, um, uh, I think I'll just share personally. Um, a real turning point for my husband and I theologically was realizing that following Christ is about so much more, and I know I'm not the first person to say this- there are a lot of folks saying this, um, but it's about so much more than just [00:23:00] praying a prayer and, um, you know, praying the sinner's prayer and then being, you know, quote unquote saved it. Really Christ preached about the Kingdom of God, the Kingdom of Heaven.  

And so it's this expansive far-reaching idea and way of life. And it does mean justice. It does mean freedom from, from poverty and oppression. And it does mean that that's a part of what, what we are called to as disciples of Christ. And we need to look to the margins. We need to look to those who are in need. We need to look to the downtrodden, to those who are in bondage in, in real concrete ways. 

You know, it's, it's tangible, this isn't just about people's spiritual wellbeing. We need to care about every aspect of humanity, this creation that, that God has, has blessed us with and entrusted to us as stewards on this earth. And so, yeah, I think really grasping the [00:24:00] expansiveness of what we're called to as followers of Christ is, is the beginning of that decolonization process, because as Jonathan was sharing, colonialism, the colonial project is so much rooted in, in this economic system of exploitation that just reduces everything down to so much less than what God intends. And I think in the same way, we've reduced our theology to just a sliver of what it was meant to be in a way that has just been completely, um, has completely erased what was meant to be there, what was meant to be proclaimed and lived out. And so I think it's bringing back that richness and that depth and that truth.  

Sy Hoekstra: I think that one other thing that's worth pointing out about the "for the Kingdom of God" part of our tagline is that we, the three of us, are not trying [00:25:00] to decolonize or deconstruct or whatever word you want to use ourselves, like, out of the faith. Like the three of us, for various reasons, just don't, that's not the direction we're going. Like, we are very much, you know, committed to Jesus and his way, and we believe that he is the answer to a lot of the, um, problems that we see expressed in our colonized faith.  

And so I don't think that, um, that, that doesn't mean that we have all the answers, right. Or that we know how to solve everything and whatever, I, we're just saying that for us, you know, like, like Peter says, like, "You have the words of eternal life." Uh, and that, you know, the, the faith that we've inherited in a lot of ways seeks to destroy, seeks to dehumanize. And we are, um, committed to a path where we follow Jesus out of it and disentangle, like Suzie said. Um, which is also something that, [00:26:00] a word that, um, uh, Ekemini from the Truth's Table podcast, which everybody should listen to, uses a lot, talking about disentangling our faith from what is just untrue, what comes to us from America, what comes to us from Europe, like idols that we have, um, that are not of God. 

And so that's, that's kind of why I thought that that part of the tagline was important that like we have a direction we're going and we believe it's exactly the direction of the gospel. The good news of the Kingdom of God is at hand. And that thing about the gospel being bigger, uh, than just salvation, we talk about that a lot more in the interview that we're going to have, uh, next week with Rich Villodas. He goes into a lot of detail about that and makes it very practical about what it looks like for him to preach a gospel and leave the type of harmful faith that we're talking about while actually shepherding a church, which I think is a great conversation. 

So I'm just plugging next week's show. That's what I'm doing [chuckles]. Uh, Jonathan your thoughts?  

Jonathan Walton: Yeah. I mean, I, I [00:27:00] would not be a believer if it was not for the Kingdom of God and the descriptions that Jesus gives in the gospels. You know, when he says like, come unto me all who are heavy-laden, I will give you rest. When he, um, describes what it will look like for no one to hunger and thirst anymore. When Luke 14, where he lays out, you know, this banquet and that all people are invited and, you know, these images of God through Christ, by the power of the Spirit, like constantly uplifting oppressed people and not just uplifting oppressed people and leaving them where they're at, but like sending them on their way and saying, "I'm coming back, cause I'm gone to prepare a place for you," right.  

Um, I think, not in the trite, like we all get to go to heaven sort of way, but in the, um, heaven has come near to you because the Kingdom of God is close in Christ is the most beautiful thing that I have ever encountered. On the flip side of that, I think [00:28:00] it is, um, depressing to me how many people don't want that. 

And what, what they actually want is a faith that keeps the systems in place and keeps the structures in place and operates in an unidentified kind of way, and doesn't want to be canceled or called out or held accountable to anyone. And I think that is worth shaking the dust off and leaving to its own end because the wages of sin is always death. 

And I think "shake the dust" for me means like, if we are faithful to sharing, if we are faithful to bearing witness in word and deed and power, like, to a Jesus that desires for all people to know that they are deeply loved by him, experience the flourishing that God intended, for all of us to flourish, work, rule, and create as he purposed in the beginning- if you don't want that, [00:29:00] like we can shake the dust off and go on.  

There's something transformative about being honest, sharing the good news of Jesus in word, deed, and power with people for the long haul and then releasing their eschatological post-earth journeys, like, to them and God.  

As opposed to what Brandi Miller talks about in her podcast, I believe with either, um, Sean Watkins or Pastor Michael Kim-Eubanks, he talks about, like, this false sense of urgency around sharing the gospel and reducing it down to a decision about heaven or hell. Whereas, like, the invitation from God is to be with him in all of what that means on this side of heaven and the next, or to not be with him, which is a very different question than like, am I going to suffer forever? Or like, [00:30:00] um, be singing forever, right?  

Like these, these questions that are thrown at us are not the questions that Jesus invites us to in the gospel. The questions that Jesus invites us to in the gospel are super specific. To the rich man: do you want to sell all that you have, right, to come and follow me? To Peter: do you want to leave your father's business and what you know, to come and follow me and be the rock? Like, do you want to be a tax collector anymore, Matthew? These very specific invitations, I believe that we, what I would love to see us do is be able to invite people as best as we can to those specific calls from the Spirit, and then to shake the dust off the places that are actively trying to destroy and denigrate them. 

Because that's what the enemy is trying to do, right. Like he just wants to steal, kill, and to destroy, which is exactly what colonizers came and want to do and, like, to go into the Kingdom. So all of the rambling that I just did, I hope was clear, [00:31:00] but, um, to shake the dust, I think means that and to, to seek the Kingdom, I think they have to go hand in hand.  

Sy Hoekstra: The passage that "shake the dust" comes from, which is Matthew 10 and Luke 10, Jesus specifically tells his disciples, you know, go and preach the word and anyone who doesn't accept it, shake the dust off your feet and leave the town. Right? Like that's, that's the idea is if people aren't going to accept the gospel, leave. Leave and come follow me. Right? Like that's where we, I think we're very much, you know, of the mind that the Great Commission is, is about making disciples, not converts, right? Like obviously you have to convert people to make disciples. But I mean, that, that was what Jesus said. Go and make disciples of the nations, not go and get people to read the sinner's prayer and then you're good. Right?  

Like, and then the corollary to that is the gospel being, like, about the Kingdom and bringing people [00:32:00] into, being ambassadors of a coming kingdom that is near and not just bringing people to heaven, right. Um, that passage in Matthew 10 is also like the context of it as Jesus is telling his disciples specifically to go to the lost sheep of Israel. He says, don't go to the Gentiles and don't go to the Samaritans who were ethnically Jewish, but they were considered like religiously impure for various reasons. He's saying go to the people who are like, who identify with me and preach the word to them. And if they don't accept your word, leave. 

So I think that's like a lot of what we're doing now is we have a lot of people in the US today who very much identify with Jesus, but who are not willing to accept his word when it comes to making any sacrifices to their own, like, power or sense of being the, morally the best or the people who should be wielding like actual levers of power, you know? 

So I think that's part of why the title [00:33:00] was important to me too. And, and we want to talk to people about actually walking out of spaces, like literal places, churches, you know, universities, whatever, where people are unwilling to accept the Word of God. That's obviously something, we're not saying, we're, we're not prescribing one way to do that for all people, for all places. Obviously you need nuance and wisdom, but that is, um, something that we genuinely want to encourage.  

Jonathan Walton: Yeah. I, I do think people need nuance and wisdom. And at the same time, I think our hope building on that side is like, we need to describe what it looks like to practically leave the plantations that we've been put on because a lot of the spaces that we're in- the churches, the seminaries, like we are forced to perform in ways that are not transformative, helpful, or reflective of the gospel so that we can achieve some formed collective result that has nothing to do with Scripture in spiritual spaces. And I'm guilty of that, which we [00:34:00] will get into in our podcast when we talk about, um, what it looks like to fight sex trafficking and slavery from an evangelical perspective, right. 

Um, it's, it's one of those things where like, um, we actively have to leave the spiritual plantations and the physical plantations that we are on, uh, because God has called us to physical and spiritual freedom. Like, the gospel is liberation. Um, there is no liberation theology it's just meeting Jesus is liberation from captivity, in so many ways. And so, or in every way, actually.  

Sy Hoekstra: You're using, um, plantation as, as a metaphor. Why?  

Jonathan Walton: Oh. I'm using plantation as a metaphor, because if we leave a colonized faith, colonies set up plantations to produce resources that they could then sell, right. And so I believe in a lot of ways, the spiritual institutions that we have propped up are actually like spiritual plantations, except cotton has been replaced with books and resources. [00:35:00] And, you know, we, we sign book deals, you get another book deal, you get another resource, you get like, it's this mill of content that's actually produced for consumption, not for hagah, which what it means to literally chew on the Word of God that we might know him more perfectly. 

Sy Hoekstra: And we're going to try and be very careful not to do that ourselves because we have a Christian media company. So we're going to try, and you know what, we might screw up and then hopefully we'll realize that and say, we're sorry, and do better. That's our general goal. Suzie, any more thoughts?  

Suzie Lahoud: Um, I mean, I think the only thing I would add is one way it's been helpful for me to think about this is, is really spiritual divestment. 

So when you guys talk about the need for nuance and discernment, when it comes to, you know, what does it look like to shake the dust? I think it's, are you, are you a part of an institution, of a community of faith where you can see collective renewal in, in ceasing to invest [00:36:00] in ideas and, and endeavors that are dehumanizing and destructive ultimately. Um, can you, can you be a part of that renewal? And if there is ongoing resistance to that, then I think you need to, you know, pick up your shoes and go.  

Um, so I think, I think that's where it, for me, even as I try to discern these things in my own life, because it can be, can be tricky and difficult and painful, I think that that's the real question is can you see that, that spiritual divestment take place because it needs to take place. Um, so does it need to take place through work that you're going to commit to doing and creating a community to do, to move the place that you are towards where it needs to be. 

Um, and if you're in a situation where that's not going to happen, you need to leave because you need to not invest your time and your energy and your tithes in, in something that's, that's only going to contribute to [00:37:00] a project that ultimately is counter to what God desires.  

Sy Hoekstra: All right. So the last thing we're going to talk about before we explain to everybody what exactly it is that we're doing at KTF Press, this little company we have, um, why do we think it's important to center and elevate the voices of marginalized people? 

Actually, I'm going to answer that question and then I'll kick it to you guys.  

Um, I just think from a very practical standpoint, the people who best understand what's happening in a colonized faith are going to be the people who were, um, victimized by it. That doesn't mean that anybody who's victimized by something understands it or that anyone who's a part of, um, you know, uh, harmful faith, doesn't understand what's going on. And you know, there's no magic bullet. This isn't ideological or simple your, your, you know, your position, your status in society, doesn't determine everything about you and how you think. But, it is, I think just pretty logical that the [00:38:00] people to whom the harm has happened are going to understand how the harm works and affects, um, themselves and their communities better than the people who perpetrated the harm and who have a whole theology designed to, uh, uphold and make them accept the harm that is being perpetrated. 

So, um, and again, you can be someone who is in both camps, right? Like it's, it's not a split right down the middle. It's not a 50/50, here's the oppressors, and here's the oppressed. I think it's, for me, it is really simple and straightforward. Like we need to hear from voices that we haven't heard from, if we want to leave harmful theology, right. 

The thing that's going to get you out of a system that's based on harmful theology is not going to be the harmful theology or the people who came up with it. That's like, that should be a pretty obvious thing, I think. But I think when you say something like center and elevate marginalized voices, people have [00:39:00] maybe like a lot of baggage that comes into hearing that, um, sort of language. 

And so, uh, that's kind of the way that I bring it down to a real ground level. How about you guys?  

Jonathan Walton: The answer for me is, I'll try to be as quick as possible, and Audre Lorde, amazing poet, writer, author, womanist, feminist said, "The master's tools will never dismantle the master's house." Um, and on top of that, she also said, "Your silence will not protect you." 

Um, and so I, I believe that like, there is a measure of power that I've been given by the Kingdom of God in this world to, to wield. And I have no idea what it's like to live downstream of patriarchy. I need to ask women about that. I don't know what it's like to have land theft happen to my people. I know what it's like to pray and think through being the thing that was stolen, right. Um, [00:40:00] but I need to ask indigenous people what it's like to care for land that is still being taken in a genocide that is still in progress, right. And so I'm not going to ask a thief who has stolen things to then go fix the thing that they were stealing. I'm not interested in doing that. I'm interested in, what does it look like to create something new? 

And therefore, I need to ask the people for whom the thing that was taken was most cherished. Right? And so I'm interested in going to Jesus. I'm interested in going to the oppressed. I'm interested in going to the marginalized so that we can create something new, not just a re-envisioning of the people who were taking and abusing and violating in the first place. 

Um, and so I'm excited to see my daughter go to the bookstore and see books by women of color and women from diverse backgrounds. And men who understand and are asking questions to be [00:41:00] answered by people who know what it's like to be downstream of patriarchy. And, you know, for her to pick up an anthology and read voices that are translated from places downstream of the American empire, right? 

Like, I want her to be able to see that. And right now she can't do that at Barnes & Noble, because of COVID, because you can't go in stores [laughs], but she wouldn't be able to do that, um, I want her to be able to do that on the local bookstore's website where she could pick that up. You know what I mean? So... 

Suzie Lahoud: Yeah, I mean, I, when we talk about centering and elevating marginalized voices, I think, yeah, it, that's not as like a pity project. Um, that's, that's me personally saying those are the voices that I need to hear. And Sy you spoke about how we're not doing this because we think we have all the answers. I know I certainly don't have all the answers. 

Um, I have more questions than anything, and I think I've come to this increasing realization that I need new resources [00:42:00] to, to go to. I need new people that I can listen to. I need new books that I can read, you know, just like Jonathan was sharing. Um, and it's not that those voices aren't out there. Um, and so if we can play any role in bringing those, those prophetic people to the fore, then, you know, I'm grateful to be a part of that and, and to platform them and to, to enter into the work that they're already doing, but then a lot of people aren't even aware of, tragically.  

And I think, you know, the starting point for all that is that the white American church is in deep trouble right now. And, um, let me just say, if that's still a question for you. Like if you, if you don't, you're not sure you agree with that statement, I'm not sure this podcast is going to be for you. That's kind of our launching point into all of these discussions that, um, something's not right. And we, we are at a really scary point, um, in, in white American evangelicalism, [00:43:00] specifically. 

And, and just as Jonathan and Sy were sharing it's, um, it's not the same leaders that we've looked to in the past that are going to be able to get us, uh, get us out of this morass. Um, and so, yeah, I, this is, you know, me being a part of this project personally is me, you know, coming thirsty and, and, and knowing that these are the fountains of wisdom and deep, painful experience, um, deep, painful, prophetic experience. Those are the folks that, that are gonna give me the words of wisdom that I need to hear to, to grow and to dismantle and to change. And, um, that's what we need to see is redemptive, transformative change. So yeah, that's, that's kind of our launching point and our desire in all of this. 

Sy Hoekstra: So here's what we're doing. Actually, I'll start by talking about here's what we did. Because Suzie has that conviction, [00:44:00] she put a project together last year, where we published a book called Keeping the Faith. It was an anthology of Christians who were specifically writing about why they weren't, um, voting for Donald Trump, but putting it in terms of the idols and the principalities and powers within American Christianity, that support for him represented and reflected. 

And so that book kind of charts a way for people to move forward, comes from a lot of different diverse perspectives from within the church. Um, people who don't even necessarily agree with each other on all things, who we don't necessarily agree with on all things, but it was, uh, I think a really, um, special collection of, of, um, uh, voices. 

We formed a company when we made that book and that's KTF Press. And now through that, we're doing this podcast. We also have a weekly newsletter that you can get by going to KTFpress.com. It's going to be, uh, basically, the frame [00:45:00] is "media worthy of your time and attention as you seek to leave colonized faith for the Kingdom of God." We're going to highlight, um, all kinds of these voices that we've been talking about. 

Uh, and we're going to also have writing from the three of us on politics and faith and culture, and, um, all sorts of things as we go on this journey with all of you. There's going to be some free content from that blog. We're also going to have a paid subscription version, which we would be so appreciative if any of you were willing to sign up for, because that's what's going to support this show. 

That's, what's going to support future book projects that we have planned that are in the works. That's going to support the continued writing on the blog. We also want to bring in other people to write for the blog, but we also want to pay them a fair amount for the work that they do, which is unfortunately, not the norm in the, in the writer world. 

So, um, KTFpress.com is where you can go to sign up. It's where you can go to get on the free mailing list and to subscribe to the paid [00:46:00] version of the blog. If you cannot, uh, subscribe to the paid version of the blog right now, we completely understand. We would still, uh, really appreciate it if you just subscribe to this show, sign up for the free mailing list, you can rate and review this show wherever you're listening. All those things are extremely helpful to us and we really, really appreciate it. The anthology that we published last year is available at keepingthefaithbook.com, and we would also appreciate it if you check that out.  

Okay. So we're going to see you next week. We have interviews coming up with Rich Villodas, Sandra Maria Van Opstal, Lamar Hardwick, Chuck Armstrong. A lot of different people who have a lot of great things to say. We've already recorded a bunch of them and they are, uh, fantastic. We think you're gonna love them. So to stay up to date, follow us @KTFPress on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook.  

Our theme song on this show, which we are so thankful for, is the song "Citizens" by Jon Guerra. We really appreciate him letting us use, uh, his song as our theme song. He, he got involved kind of early on, uh, in the book project and has just [00:47:00] been really supportive and friendly and great. And our fantastic podcast art is by Jacqueline Tam. You can follow her on Instagram @JacquelineTam. It's J-A-C-Q-U-E-L-I-N-E-T-A-M. Uh, you can see, and you can find links to purchase her work there.  

Thank you so much for listening and we will see you all next week. 

[“Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” Song fades out.] 

[Loud crackling noise followed by loud crunching] 

Sy Hoekstra: Jonathan, you cannot eat that while we record. You understand that, right? [Suzie and Jonathan laugh. Jonathan continues to chuckle as he munches loudly.] You get your chips in now, and then we, you gotta stop. 

[More crunching as Sy laughs] 

Suzie Lahoud: Today's episode [00:48:00] will be hosted from inside Jonathan Walton's chip bag.  

Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, exactly, right? [chuckling] 

Jonathan Walton: Guys, guys, we should totally endorse Should Taste Good brand, which is the best name ever. 

Sy Hoekstra:  Should, should taste good?  

Jonathan Walton: I'm sorry, Food Should Taste Good.  

Sy Hoekstra: I feel like if you're branding, you want to specifically tell people that your food tastes good. 

Not like the concept that food in general should taste good.  

Suzie Lahoud: [laughs] Don't leave it as an open-ended question.  

Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. Right! 

Welcome to Shake the Dust! Here’s our trailer. The first episode drops April 30. See you then! 

Shake the Dust is a podcast of KTF Press. Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Find transcripts of this show, sign up for our free mailing list, and subscribe to our blog at KTFPress.com.  

Hosts 

Jonathan Walton – follow him on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. 

Suzie Lahoud – follow her on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. 

Sy Hoekstra – follow him on Twitter. 

Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra – listen to the whole song on Spotify.

Our podcast art is by Jacqueline Tam – follow her and see her other work on Instagram. 

Shake the Dust is produced and edited by Sy Hoekstra.

Transcript

Jonathan Walton: (The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra slowly fading in underneath Jonathan talking) These Twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions. Proclaim this message: the Kingdom of Heaven has come near. Whatever town or village you enter, search there for some worthy person and stay at their house until you leave. If anyone will not welcome you, or listen to your words, then leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet. 

(“Citizens” fades in. Lyrics: “You’re building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song then fades and continues to play underneath the remainder of the speaking in the trailer.) 

Sy Hoekstra: Welcome to Shake the Dust, a podcast of KTF Press. I’m Sy Hoekstra 

Jonathan: I’m Jonathan Walton 

Suzie Lahoud: And I’m Suzie Lahoud. Last year, the three of us edited a book, Keeping the Faith: Reflections on Politics and Christianity in the Era of Trump and Beyond. This anthology of dissent brought together a diverse group of clergy, writers, activists, and scholars from across the political spectrum to challenge the predominant narrative of Christian allegiance to Donald Trump. We wrote about the long-standing idols and ideas that so many use to prop up white American Christianity and charted how to move forward faithfully. 

Jonathan: Trump is gone, but those idols are not. So we are continuing the conversation on our blog and this show.  Here, we will feature candid interviews and informed discussion with Christians who are wise and knowledgeable. The three of us will try to model humble, vulnerable dialogue across our own dividing lines of race, gender, and disability, and to center and elevate the voices of marginalized people.  

Sy: Also, we’re making everything we do as accessible as possible for disabled people. Our anthology is on Bookshare for people like me who are blind or have other print disabilities. And we will post transcripts of this podcast on our blog at the same time we publish episodes.  

Suzie: Get the anthology at keepingthefaithbook.com, check out the blog at Ktfpress.com, and visit us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter @KTFPress. 

Jonathan: Our first episode will drop on Friday next week. See you then! 

(“Citizens” fades back in and the end of the song plays. Lyrics: “Love has a million disguises/ But winning is simply not one.”)