Shake the Dust

This week, the team talks with New York Times best-selling author, Calvin University Professor Kristin Kobes Du Mez about her book, Jesus and John Wayne; the recent history of white evangelical patriarchal theology; that theology’s ties to the consolidation of evangelical political power; how militant masculinity interacts with race and disability; her research for her upcoming book on evangelical femininity; and a whole lot more. 

Shake the Dust is a podcast of KTF Press. Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Find transcripts of this show, sign up for our free mailing list, and subscribe to our blog at KTFPress.com. 

Hosts:  

Jonathan Walton – follow him on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter.    

Suzie Lahoud – follow her on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter.  

Sy Hoekstra – follow him on Twitter.  

Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra – listen to the whole song on Spotify. 

Our podcast art is by Jacqueline Tam – follow her and see her other work on Instagram.  

Shake the Dust is produced and edited by Sy Hoekstra, and transcribed by Suzie Lahoud with help from Descript. 

Questions about anything you heard on the show? Write to [email protected] and we may answer your question on a future episode. 

Transcript

Kristin Kobes Du Mez: I initially kind of understood the narrative to be something like, evangelicals were radicalized politically, or they voted for Donald Trump because they were just so afraid. Historically, I came to see that, in many ways, we had to flip the script- that it wasn't fear that engendered militancy, but in many cases, the militancy was there first. And then leaders actively stoked fear in the hearts of their followers in order to justify and consolidate their own power.

[The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/That it will roll in abundance/ And that you’re building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.]   

Suzie Lahoud: Welcome to Shake the Dust- leaving colonized faith for the Kingdom of God, a podcast of KTF Press. I'm Suzie Lahoud here with Jonathan Walton and Sy Hoekstra.

Jonathan Walton: Our guest today is Kristin Kobes Du Mez, a professor of history and gender studies at Calvin university. She holds a PhD from the University of Notre Dame and her research focuses on the intersection of gender, religion, and politics.

She's written for the New York Times, Washington Post, NBC News, Religion News Service, Christianity Today, and been interviewed by NPR, CBS, the BBC, and all these other wonderful places. Her most recent book is the New York Times bestselling Jesus and John Wayne: How White Evangelicals Corrupted a Faith and Fractured a Nation, which is now available in paperback.

Now we talked to her about that book; the history of white evangelical patriarchal politics; what it was like writing the book; how Christian patriarchy works differently for BIPOC and disabled men; the book she's writing now on evangelical femininity called Live, Laugh, Love; and a whole lot more. Sit down, relax, and enjoy this episode.

Sy Hoekstra: Just a reminder, if you like this show, the best way to support us is to go to KTFPress.com and subscribe to our blog there. That gets you our weekly newsletter with resources to help you leave colonized faith for the Kingdom of God, bonus episodes of this show, and writing from the three of us. It also supports other projects like our future book projects.

If you're not in a position to do that, then go ahead and hit the subscribe button on this podcast; follow us @KTFPress on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter; tell your friends about us; give this show a rate and review. Any of those things, all those things are extremely helpful to us, and we really appreciate it.

Also, remember to send in your questions, written or in voice memo form, to [email protected]. We're going to have a couple of episodes in future where we're sort of digesting some of the stuff that we've been hearing from all these incredible guests. And we would love to hear your questions so we can talk about them and talk about the stuff that you want to. Thank you so much!

Suzie Lahoud: Now that that's out of the way, let's get to it. Here's our interview with Professor Du Mez.

[“Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in briefly, then fades out.] 

Suzie Lahoud: Professor Du Mez, thank you so much for joining us on Shake the Dust today!

Kristin Kobes Du Mez: Oh, thanks for having me.

Suzie Lahoud: Well, we're just so grateful to have you on. And just to give listeners a sense of your book, Jesus and John Wayne, and kind of what it's about: you trace the history of white evangelical conceptions of masculinity from the forties up until the present day, and your conclusion is that Donald Trump was a logical choice for a lot of evangelicals to elect as president because he represented and embodied that picture of masculinity.

And you start in the mid-20th century and write “it was in the 1940s and 1950s that a potent mix of patriarchal ‘gender traditionalism,’ militarism, and Christian nationalism coalesced to form the basis of a revitalized evangelical identity. With Billy Graham at the vanguard, evangelicals believed that they had a special role to play in keeping America Christian, American families strong, and the nation secure. The assertion of masculine power would accomplish all these goals.” 

So that's just one sort of powerful quote summing up what you talk about. And then you describe how these ideas were passed on for the next 80 years and how they were shaped by important political and social movements.

Would you say that that's a fair sort of 30,000-foot view of the book? And is there more that you would add to that, just to again, give our listeners kind of a bite-sized piece of what this is all about.

Kristin Kobes Du Mez: No, that's, I mean, that's a great choice. That's a great quote. I think that that does get right to the heart of the history here. You know, I think one thing I would add on top of that is one of the things that Jesus and John Wayne does that I think is different from a lot of previous histories of evangelicalism, is that it takes popular culture very seriously.

And so a lot of, you know, studies of evangelicalism up to this time have kind of focused on intellectual history, on theology, on what was going on in elite institutions. And this is much more so focused on ordinary evangelicals and on evangelical consumer culture. And I think that's one of the reasons why this book is resonating so widely with ordinary evangelicals because, you know, I hear from so many who just say, you know, some version of, “This is the story of my life.”

Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.

Jonathan Walton: So, that resonance was not lost on me either. I thoroughly felt like I'm reading about how I was discipled in college. And so, as you write in the introduction to your book, you write about growing up in Sioux City, Iowa; and then attending Dordt College; and then frequently participating in worship services where Trump gave his famous, or infamous, speech about shooting someone on Fifth Avenue to the delight of the people present; just like clapping. And then we come to find out they voted overwhelmingly for him in 2016, and, as we know now, they didn't much depart from that in 2020.

And so you also write that when 2016 came around, you no longer recognized yourself as evangelical. And so this podcast is about, it's called Shake the Dust, it’s about leaving things, it’s about stepping out and going somewhere new because of Jesus and to be closer to him. So what changed for you in the midst of these things?

Kristin Kobes Du Mez: Yeah. You know, I think that I always had kind of one foot in, and one foot out of evangelicalism because I did grow up in this subculture, ethnic and religious subculture. I actually grew up in Sioux Center, not Sioux City. So Sioux Center is a small town about an hour up the road. So I need to clarify that, but, and you know, it was this Dutch immigrant community. My mom was an immigrant from the Netherlands, my dad an ordained minister in the Christian Reformed Church, a theology professor.

And so my religious identity was Reformed- confessionally Reformed, Dutch Reformed, and very much over against American evangelicalism. That said, looking back, I can see how deeply I was also shaped by popular evangelicalism because there was one bookstore in my small town, and it was a Christian bookstore. That's where we got all the birthday gifts. And I grew up listening to Christian music and only Christian music- Top 40 was sinful. And, you know, went to youth group. And was immersed in this kind of popular evangelical culture without even realizing it. And so again, kind of one foot in, one foot out. My identity wasn't wholly evangelical, but I was shaped by the cultural values.

And then when it came to 2016, yeah, I was watching Donald Trump visit my alma mater, you know, Dordt College. I grew up just a few blocks from the college- that's where my dad taught. And I was watching this play out and, you know, that's where he gave his infamous, “I could shoot anyone on Fifth Avenue; would not lose any supporters” speech. That was also one of the first times that he expressly appealed to evangelical voters. And I remember thinking at the time, “He doesn't know where he is. Dordt's not evangelical. Dordt's not Liberty University.” You know, “He didn't, his team didn't do their research.” You know, “We're not who they think, who they think we are here.”

And then I was looking at the live stream, and I was trying to see faces when people would turn around in the crowd and say, you know, “Who was there?” cause I heard the cheering, and I thought, you know, I didn't recognize anybody there. I mean that quite literally. I didn't recognize people I knew in the crowd. So I was like, “Who even are these people?” And so I think even then I wanted to tell myself, you know, “They came in from outside of Sioux Center.” “These are not,” you know, “I don't know where these people are coming from. These aren't my people.” And then, of course, they were, and we saw Sioux County, Iowa voted in great numbers for Donald Trump- higher than the infamous 81%. I think it came in around 86% in my county.

And so yeah, I had to kind of reckon with, you know, what, who am I, and what has become of my tradition? And I came to see how this evangelical culture really had permeated my own theological tradition, and my own community in many ways. And I could see that happening as a historian, and I could see that happening in real life as well.

Sy Hoekstra: So I guess, with that background in mind, we would also really like to know, like, was this book difficult for you to write because you're writing about, you know, a lot of oppressive things that have happened in what may not have been exactly your tradition, but it was, you know, in the culture that you're a part of.

And, I mean, some of the stuff you write about is, honestly, quite dark. And, you know, especially with you- you're sitting there doing all the research, reading through all of this stuff, not really having any idea whether or not your book is going to be successful or have the impact that it has had. How was that for you? Was that hard?

Kristin Kobes Du Mez: You know, I gave very little thought to the impact of this book as I was writing it. I was just really, really set on getting things right. I was just set on telling this story. When I thought of the reception of the book, I actually rarely thought about positive reception. I was just thinking about how many people would hate me and how bad it would get. So I really didn't, it caught me a bit off guard the popular reception with the book, to be honest.

It was hard to write. It was, on the one hand, I mean, I've been, I'd started this research more than 15 years earlier and then set it aside. So what that means is, I had kept my eye on this community and on some of these tendencies for a long time. And I've watched what was happening in terms of this militant masculinity, in terms of sexual abuse in evangelical spaces, in terms of coverups. Long before #MeToo and #ChurchToo were a thing, you know, this was all on the blogosphere, if you cared to look.

And so I was, in some ways, the writing process itself was cathartic to put this all into words, and to really hold evangelicals to account. It, honestly, felt very empowering to write this narrative and, which doesn't mean it also didn't have it’s difficult stretches. Really the research and writing of that final chapter, “Evangelical Mulligans: A History,” where it's, you know, really reveals the extent of sexual abuse and coverups within evangelicalism- that was incredibly hard. It was hard to research. And then I really, really wanted to make sure I got the stories right, and that I dealt with the survivor’s accounts with respect and integrity, and that I could use them for the purposes that they would want them used for.

And so I felt a real burden with that chapter. And then, of course, the stories there are devastating. And so every time I edited it, I hated it. I really, really, I, you know, I’d get all the way through the book, almost, on a read, on an edit, and then think, I’d just like run up against that chapter and it was, I hated it. I asked my editor more than once, “Does this really have to be in here?” And each time he's like, “Yeah, it does.”

But I will also say I had three research assistants who helped me research this book and they were phenomenal student researchers- students at Calvin from within this culture, one in particular from very deep within this culture, and they were amazing. And so I think we were a community for each other and we really helped each other kind of through some of this really dark research.

Suzie Lahoud: Wow. Yeah, I have to say, reading this book, I was sharing this with Sy and Jonathan earlier, so when I first started it, one, I was just so impressed by the massive amount of work that went into it. And I just love the way that you get into the history and unmask these mechanisms of, like you said, the popular culture and all of that. I had just never seen anything like that so clearly laid out. And so it was really clarifying for me as a woman who also grew up in evangelicalism. But then I, you know, put the book down, went to bed, and dreamt about your book the entire night. And it wasn't exactly nightmares, but I woke up and I realized, I'm really angry. And I'm angry because, I think, the thing that, you know, most breaks my heart and I think should most break our hearts is when we, as Christians, as people who claim to be the people of God, who claim to follow Christ, deface the image of God in other people.

And growing up under that, I mean, I'm angry for my, you know, 13, 14, 15 year-old self praying, because I so desperately loved Jesus, you know, “God- you are the most important thing in my life. I just need to know, am I really a second-class citizen in your kingdom?” You know, “Do I really have a voice?” “How do I exist in my own body without shame?” And so, again, what you write is just so clear and so powerful and just exposes so much that needs to be exposed. And so one, I mean, just thank you for all of the work and even emotional labor that went into that.

But to kind of pivot a little bit to sort of, a broader take more than just kind of my own personal reaction, we talk on this show about leaving colonized faith. And part of that exercise is trying to identify the ways that our beliefs uphold and perpetuate the use of power to oppress people. So can you give our listeners an overview of some of the ways that evangelicals have used this vision of masculinity that you trace in your book to consolidate and wield, not just power interpersonally, but political power?

Kristin Kobes Du Mez: Yeah. You know, ultimately, this is a book about power. That's what it comes down to- the relationship between Christianity and power. And the story that I tell it's, by elevating this model of warrior masculinity as the ideal of Christian manhood, it ends up not just shaping visions of what it is to be a Christian man, although very much that, but it ends up also shaping ideas of Christianity itself- what it is to be a Christian, a follower of Christ. It ends up distorting images of Jesus, the Jesus of the gospels. You can see this happening in somebody like Mark Driscoll, right. Who describes Jesus as this warrior with tattoos down his leg charging into battle on horseback wielding a bloody sword, setting off to slay his enemies.

And, you know, that is just so counter biblical in terms of the Jesus of the gospels who divests himself of power. And that's what's so radical about Christianity. And we have all of these teachings of “Love your neighbor as yourself.” “Love your enemies.” “Turn the other cheek.” We have the Beatitudes. We have the fruit of the spirit, you know. This is really what is so counter-cultural about Christianity.

And instead, with this warrior masculinity, and the kind of militant faith that is built around it, it really, that's the corruption of the faith that I am talking about in the subtitle. So it also really requires and perpetuates an “us versus them” mentality, right, where this kind of language of war- it requires enemies. So somebody like John Eldredge writes, you know, “God is a Warrior God, and men are made in his image. Every man needs a battle to fight.” Well, if you need a battle, you need enemies. And so you're constantly on the lookout for enemies, or you're creating enemies.

And, you know, I think one of the big kind of “aha” moments for me as I was researching this book was, I initially kind of understood the narrative to be something like what I was hearing a lot of pundits describe and evangelicals themselves- that evangelicals were radicalized politically, or they voted for Donald Trump because they were just so afraid. You know, they were afraid of demographic decline; of, you know, the religious liberties; and there's this whole list. Always a list. And historically I came to see that, in many ways, we had to flip the script. That it wasn't fear that engendered militancy, but in many cases, the militancy was there first and then leaders actively stoked fear in the hearts of their followers in order to justify and consolidate their own power. And once that clicked for me, it made so much sense of people like Jerry Falwell senior, of people like Mark Driscoll. It made sense of those fake ex-Muslim terrorists post 9/11.

Sy Hoekstra: That was wild.

Jonathan Walton: That was on some other level. I was like, “Whoa!”

Kristin Kobes Du Mez: Yes. That was.

Sy Hoekstra: Just in case people like me, who haven't heard of the fake ex-Muslim terrorists.

Kristin Kobes Du Mez: Yeah, quick overview. This is, it's such a bizarre story. And I first learned about these guys because they visited my college campus, and I write about that in this book. It was actually one of my colleagues, Doug Howard, a historian of the Ottoman Empire, who raised some objections to these guys who were… So in the years after September 11, there were a whole slew of supposedly ex-Muslim terrorists. So former terrorists who had converted to Christianity and they were all over the place on the evangelical speaking circuit, supported by institutions, organizations like Focus on the Family, CBN, the SBC. And they were just riling up audiences, warning them of the dangers of radical Islam, of how Muslims want to kill them. Like very specifically wanting to kill, not just Americans, but American Christians and American evangelicals and their families. And it turns out, all of these guys were frauds, like complete frauds. They were not former terrorists. Some of them not even really former Muslims. And, I mean, that was bad enough, but what was, what was really jarring was when I came to see that these organizations knew that and continued to support these quote unquote “ministries” long after they knew that these guys were frauds.

Jonathan Walton: So full confession, my master's degree is an intellectual history of Jerry Falwell. Yeah, fun times. And then my second level research was a capstone on the connection between right-wing evangelicalism, particularly Jerry Falwell, and political violence in Latin America. So the militarization of these ideas.

So, and that is fully coupled with the racialization that comes along with this vision of masculinity, right. And so, particularly for me, the image that stands out in my mind is 1983. And you may have seen this, or your researchers did, when Jesse Jackson was debating Jerry Falwell about apartheid in South Africa; and similarly with what happened in Nicaragua, Guatemala, Honduras- just these arguments. And so race would come in and come out. And specifically Jerry Falwell said, “I have been delivered from that.” And that's all he said about it.

Sy Hoekstra: From racism?

Jonathan Walton: From, yes, from racism. And so I wonder, as your book gets into, you know, breaking down evangelical visions of masculinity that are, in many ways, racialized, were there dimensions that came up as you were doing research concerning race? And can you explain specifically like, the racial aspects of the John Wayne Christianity? Cause I think you did an amazing job in the book of breaking that down.

Kristin Kobes Du Mez: Yeah. So one of the first things I noticed when I started paying attention to the literature on evangelical masculinity- and this was back in the early 2000s, so it was the John Eldredge era. I mean, one of the things I noticed was how little these authors actually quoted the scriptures. And instead, they preferred Hollywood heroes, mythical warriors, random cowboys and soldiers. And, you know, they love Teddy Roosevelt and John Wayne. And I didn't set out to write a book about race, right. I was focused on gender. But, if you know much about gender and race, sooner or later, you're going to end up doing both. And that's what I, it dawned on me early on in this research that, you know, evangelicals love their heroes, evangelical men, especially, right. And again- Teddy Roosevelt, William Wallace from the movie Braveheart, General MacArthur, General Patton, and, you know, John Wayne.

And when I looked at this cast of characters, and this was repeated over and over and over again in these books. It was like an industry, and it really did border on plagiarism. It's just the same cast of like a dozen characters that just get recycled in every single book and all of them go on to be bestsellers. It's really remarkable. I mean, I was sorely tempted back in the day to try my hand at one of these things. I knew I could sell more books under a pseudonym than I ever could as an academic. You know, it was just so cookie cutter.

But I noticed that all of these heroes were white men. And then they weren't just white men, but, in many cases, they were white men who asserted their power by subduing non-white populations. So, you know, Teddy Roosevelt is a great example in terms of white masculinity and American power, American empire- Spanish-American War, or even before that, you know, kind of recreating himself in the Wild West. And then I noticed that John Wayne just kept popping up. And here we can see that so clearly. So John Wayne becomes an icon of conservative American masculinity because of his onscreen persona. And what is that? You know, first he's this cowboy hero who will use violence when necessary, again, to achieve order. Violence in the Wild West was against Native Americans. And then we have him in the Sands of Iwo Jima, Second World War, against the Japanese. And then in the Alamo against the Mexicans. And then in The Green Berets against the Vietnamese. Just over and over again, this model of heroic white masculinity.

And that is so attractive to conservative Americans and conservative white evangelicals in the 1960s and 1970s. It resonates with this deeply racialized law and order politics. It resonated with evangelicals’, especially Southern white evangelicals’, resistance to civil rights legislation and defense of segregation. And, you know, historically it's just so clear. And what happens though, is that evangelicals work hard to make race invisible. And so they advance this colorblindness, right, I think that Falwell was tapping into there, you know, at least later in his career.

And so it's really hard to talk with many white evangelicals about race because they legitimately don't see themselves at all as racist, and yet the value system that they've embraced- this family values evangelicalism, law and order politics, is just so deeply racialized. And their visions of heroic masculinity and what it means to protect Christianity; it's very much a white racial ideal. Christian nationalism itself, which is intertwined with this idea of heroic Christian manhood, it only makes sense if you're a white Christian.

Jonathan Walton: Yeah. So one follow-up is, in your research, because I was sitting in that small group with Wild at Heart as a Black male at Columbia University, right. And I got the T-shirt when I was 17 years-old from my youth pastor with Jesus…

Sy Hoekstra: You had a Wild at Heart T-shirt, Jonathan?

Jonathan Walton: No, it's a worse T-shirt. It’s “The Lord's Gym” T-shirt- Jesus under the cross doing the pushup, right.

Kristin Kobes Du Mez: Oh yeah! Classic.

Jonathan Walton: Yeah. And so… Terrible. [laughing] I’m wondering, what do you think, or have you discovered, what is attractive to non-white men?

Kristin Kobes Du Mez: Yeah, so, you know, I think that these tropes of masculinity certainly can be attractive to non-white men. And, particularly, you know, those who are inhabiting predominantly white evangelical spaces, you know, as I assume you are at that time.

Jonathan Walton: Yes.

Kristin Kobes Du Mez: And so, you know, it's not that this ideology, or this ideal of masculinity is, that it only appeals to white men. But those who are producing this vision of masculinity do intend for it to predominantly apply to white men. And so when you look at how people of color and men of color are depicted within these conversations, they are very rarely held up as warriors, and as, you know, as men who need to use violence to achieve order. Not at all. It's quite the opposite. Men of color are depicted as threats, as threats to order. And so, you know, we can talk about immigrants and border security. We can talk about Islam; the Islamophobia. We can talk about discussions of race and law enforcement, of Black Lives Matter.

And in all of these conversations, that's where you can really see a distinction. Which isn't to say, again, in communities of color, that they don't have their own, maybe conflicting understandings of masculinity and Christianity. And I've heard from a number of people, especially, I would say, in Hispanic evangelical communities, there's quite a bit of overlap here. A little less so in African-American communities, although there are certainly issues of patriarchy there. But I think a real distinction within African-American communities who might promote this kind of patriarchal masculinity is it tends not to be linked to Christian nationalism. And so it looks quite different. It might look similar, kind of on an individual level, but it finds a very different expression when it comes to politics or broader cultural identity.

Jonathan Walton: Cool. Thank you for drawing those lines. I really appreciate it.

Sy Hoekstra: So, professor, I wanted to ask you about, another kind of angle of intersectionality here is I wrote an article recently, which you very kindly retweeted, about, you know, my experience reading this book as a blind man and just having kind of inferred whenever I heard, you know, these sorts of teachings as a kid, that none of this was for me and that I didn't fit in this mold.

And you talked in your conclusion about another physically disabled person who you spoke to who had kind of a similar view of John Wayne Christianity. Did you run into anything else about kind of the intersection of disability and this vision of masculinity that you were writing about when you were doing your research?

Kristin Kobes Du Mez: I did not, which I think is interesting, right. I should have come across more of that, and I didn't. It was just through one of the interviews that I did that, you know, it was so clear. Once he explained his experience I thought, “Of course.” But I will say that, so it was a man with a disability who could make that very clear to me. You know, he said he couldn't go out, you know, rock climbing with the guys from church on the weekend, that just he physically couldn't do that. And so what place was there for him? And he felt like he was not sufficiently masculine and he felt like he was a second-class Christian. And it was just so striking to me.

And this was somebody who had reached out to me and asked that I not share his name because he's still in that community where he's still struggling to kind of make peace in that world and to find acceptance. And, but then I realized, you know, as I continued to listen to men's voices, whether they were men with disabilities or not, so very, very many men did not feel like they could achieve this vision of masculinity that was held out for them. So maybe you kind of parallel in terms of universal design, right, an understanding of what, you know, for men with disability, absolutely not, but actually for so many men this, you know, there were men who were like, you know, “Actually, I would rather have gone to an art museum on a Saturday with guys from my church, but that was never an option.” You know, that was almost a joke to even say that it could be. But so many men kind of felt like either, you know, the problem was all theirs, they internalized it. And so if they did, some of them left, not just evangelicalism, some of them left Christianity because this was the only Christianity they had known.

Others- just so many poignant stories- others, you know, years of struggle to come to terms with this in their marriages. Others struggling with sexual orientation. But there's also another group who could never achieve this level of kind of warrior masculinity, but they didn't abandon the system. And these are the guys who kind of accepted that they were not the alpha males. But also accepted that they should then give their loyalty to the men in the room, the men in the church, the men in the country, who were the alpha males. And so I think that's interesting to hold in tension as well. Some men walked away. Other men ended up just kind of giving their loyalty and supporting the men who looked, you know, who modeled this aggressive, even crass, leadership. Who seemed, according to everything they had been taught, who seemed to have the God-given authority and call to lead.

Sy Hoekstra: It strikes me, I think we've been talking about this a little bit amongst the three of us, that a lot of what people like you- and obviously we're not doing anywhere near the academic heavy-lifting that you're doing- but in the kind of work that we're doing is trying to clear the path of all this sort of American political nonsense back to Jesus. And it is- I mean, you’re talking about people who are leaving the faith- it is in a roundabout way evangelistic, right. Like even this history work you're doing outlining where these ideas came from and sort of, I don't know, I thought that's a, it's just an interesting aspect of the work that may not be immediately apparent, but like you said, you're doing this because, out of your conviction that you don't think that this is faithful to Jesus, right. So I just appreciate that.

Kristin Kobes Du Mez: Yeah. And it is interesting. Yeah. I wrote a piece in the [New York] Times just a couple of weeks back where I talk about giving an interview with a Christian radio station. And I could tell that, you know, one of the hosts was really enthusiastic, the other one much more reserved. And then after we went off the air- unfortunately, it was after, I would have loved to have this conversation on air. He asked me, and he was trying really hard to be respectful and, but he essentially, you know, very kindly asked, you know, “Why would you think that anybody would want to become a Christian after reading your book?” And so he was deeply concerned about this evangelism aspect.

And I realized that that's just the impulse that so many evangelicals have had. And I had it myself, you know. I said I started this research more than 15 years earlier. And I set it aside, in part because I thought, you know, “Is this what I should do as a Christian scholar- kind of air our dirty laundry?” You know, because what I was uncovering was deeply disturbing. And yeah, I wasn't sure, is this mainstream and if it's not, should I be shining this bright light on the darkest underbelly of American Christianity? I wasn't sure. I had other stuff going on. I set it aside and kind of meant to come back to it at some point.

But what I realized is that that's exactly what evangelicals have been doing for generations. They have been controlling their own narrative. They have been putting the best face forward. They have been covering up scandal, covering up abuse in the interest of protecting the witness of the church, of the organization, of the leader. And cumulatively that has brought us to a terrible place. And so, I think that, yeah, one of the things that Jesus and John Wayne does is it just makes that all visible. And it has been incredible to me to see how many evangelicals have responded with such humility to this very harsh narrative. And, as you can see from the cover of the book, the chapter titles, and the tone throughout, I did not pull any punches. I did not. I did not try to woo evangelicals.

I, you know, there’s so much evangelicals writing to evangelicals who do that. I thought, “No. I just, I need to tell this truth as powerfully as possible, and this is what it's gonna look like.” And yet, that is exactly, I think, why the book is so effective within evangelical communities, because they have shielded themselves from this truth for decades. And when they can see it, it does, a lot of people talk about how it gives them hope because they can finally articulate what is wrong. And so there's something you can do. You can call it out. You can identify it. And then you can work to undo it. And so it's, you know, beyond what I had hoped in terms of what the book could do. I frankly didn't think the book would change anything. It was all so deeply embedded. I just wanted to testify. I wanted to just hold this out and say, “This is true.” And that's all I thought I could accomplish. And so to see some people really taking it to heart has been incredibly encouraging.

Suzie Lahoud: And if I could just ask, and this is a fairly personal question, so feel free to answer this however you feel comfortable, but in light of what you just shared, I had a professor in college who shared at one point about how our testimony should actually be why we're choosing to still follow Christ today. Like why, today, do I still choose to worship him? And so for you, again, as a person doing this research and digging into all of this darkness, why do you still choose to follow Christ despite all of this ugliness that you unmask? And I agree that it's liberation work that you're doing. I agree that there's so much good that comes of this, but for you personally, why do you still choose to follow Christ?

Kristin Kobes Du Mez: Yeah, so the Christ that I choose to follow, the Christ that I'm drawn to, I should say, is absolutely not the Jesus of Jesus and John Wayne, right. Absolutely not. And so, you know, and I think that that really helped me to see the stark contrast. And to really start, you know, I should say the second part of the, or the first part of the subtitle, the “corrupted a faith” part, you know, that is not a historical claim. I want to be honest about that, because it's a work of history. This is actually written for secular audiences, this book. I went with a secular publisher and I was actually surprised that my publisher went with that part of the subtitle because it's not a historical claim. It makes no sense historically: how can you corrupt a faith? A faith is however it finds expression in any given historical moment. That is my intervention as a Christian, and as somebody who is speaking to evangelicals on their own terms, you know, evangelicals who claim to be Bible-believing Christians. That's where I wanted to say, “Okay, let's talk about that. Let's look at the scriptures. Let's look at the teachings of Christ. Let's look at the, you know, what it means to follow Christ. And then let's look at this history.” And so that really is my, kind of direct intervention.

But no, my faith has always kind of been, it's never looked like this, even as I've bumped up against this a lot- certainly patriarchal teachings in my own upbringing. Certainly, you know, kind of racial barriers as a white Christian as I could see how I had been also constrained by my own understanding of whiteness and white Christianity. But I just, I find the gospel, ultimately, to be liberating and to be under-cutting these, you know, I guess, the colonized power structures that I've come to identify and, you know, that's the Jesus that I place my hope in.

You know, less talking about belief, you know, “I believe this. I know this to be true. This is a doctrine I'm going to defend to the death.” It's, “This is the Christ that I place my hope in.” And that, you know, it's a matter of, ultimately, it's just what I believe to be true and what I hope to be true. And fortunately, I’ve found an incredible church here, a local church. I think that's really important. It can be very difficult to find a church that isn't, particularly in white Christian spaces, I should qualify that- that isn't captive to these ideologies. And I happen to have one that is a remarkable space, which is diverse, and liturgical, and beautiful. And so I think that sustains my faith as well.

Suzie Lahoud: Yeah. Wow. So professor you're- to pivot a little bit, and thank you so much again for what you just shared- you’re working on a new book that you describe on Twitter as “Jesus and John Wayne, but for the girls” and the title- great title- is Live, Laugh, Love.

Sy Hoekstra: I laugh every time.

Kristin Kobes Du Mez: [laughs] So do I!

Suzie Lahoud: Love the title. And you wrote a lot in Jesus and John Wayne about the kind of femininity needed to uphold the patriarchal vision of evangelical manhood. So is this book expanding on those ideas or is this research taking you in some other different directions?

Kristin Kobes Du Mez: It's, you know, it's both expanding and veering off into new directions. Yes, I'm so excited about this next project. I'm working on it this summer with a research team and it is so much fun. But, I mean, essentially, Jesus and John Wayne, we have a chapter on evangelical femininity, right- “God's Gift to Man.” And it goes back to the 1970s and we look at Marabel Morgan and Elisabeth Elliot, and then also Phyllis Schlafly, and sets up this, you know, kind of sweet, submissive, sexualized femininity that does prop up this militant Christian masculinity, because if you don't have women buying into this, it won't be sustained. So, this isn't just a book about men at all. It's about women who also prop up this ideal of masculinity. But then through, over the course of the book, you might notice that the attention to femininity kind of trails off. And that was a necessity because there was just so much packed into this book. And the kind of basics hold steady- emphasis on femininity, sexual objectification, submission, and, you know, kind of, beauty and so on, and domesticity, right. Those, but they morph what they, how they find expression kind of changes with each decade. And so I knew I just couldn't give that justice and also trace the main strand of the book- evangelical masculinity- and then also intertwined with American politics.

And so I had to kind of let that go at a certain point and just, you know, a nod here or there. And so I'm excited to have the opportunity now to give that justice and to describe exactly how evangelical femininity morphs through the last half century or more, and how it, I guess- I won't give too much away- but I'll say that it definitely engages economics more seriously with much greater depth than I was able to do in Jesus and John Wayne. That was also one of my regrets- I wish I could have done more. I was limited by space and time. So I'm making up for that in Live, Laugh, Love.

And also we'll be kind of showing, this won’t just be on evangelical femininity. It will be more on a kind of generic white Christian womanhood, which I think is an interesting and important shift to make and which is something I'll be exploring. So the connections between religious and secular, still a lot of material culture in there, and a lot of really fun findings from the archives and from interviews and such.

Suzie Lahoud: Wow.

Sy Hoekstra: That’s awesome.

Suzie Lahoud: I can't wait to get my hands on this book.

Jonathan Walton: So excited. So excited.

Kristin Kobes Du Mez: We're working, we're working on it. I say we, as in my three researchers are working on it right now while I'm doing this interview.

Sy Hoekstra: [laughs] Well, thank them for us!

Kristin Kobes Du Mez: Yes, I will.

Suzie Lahoud: Yeah. Well, Professor Du Mez- thank you so much again for joining us. This has been such an incredible conversation. We really appreciate it. And before we let you go, is there anything that you would like to plug? Where can folks find you on social media?

Kristin Kobes Du Mez: Sure. I have a website, Kristindumez.com. Du Mez is spelled D-U-M-E-Z. And I'm on Twitter all the time @kkdumez. So that's @K-K-D-U-M-E-Z. And I also have a Facebook author page @kkdumez. So you can find me any of those spaces. And also, yeah, the book is just out in paperback, so it's a lot cheaper, which is nice. And it should be widely available.

Suzie Lahoud: Fantastic. Well, thank you so much again for your time and for just this phenomenal work that you've put out into the world. We're just so grateful.

Kristin Kobes Du Mez: Thank you so much. And thank you for the work that you all are doing too.

[“Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in briefly, then fades out.] 

Suzie Lahoud: Thanks so much for listening. As a reminder, you can subscribe to our blog at ktfpress.com; follow us on social media @KTFPress on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter; and subscribe to this podcast wherever you're listening.

Also, you can write to us at [email protected] with questions, written or recorded as a voice memo. And maybe something you send in will show up on a future episode.

Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra and our podcast art is by Jacqueline Tam, and we will see you next week!

[“Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades back in. Lyrics: “Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” Song fades out.]  

Suzie Lahoud: I'm Suzie Lahoud here with S… Eh… Sorry…

Jonathan Walton: With who?

Sy Hoekstra: Did you forget my name again?

Suzie Lahoud: [laughing] Ah, no, I was just about to blend your names in a weird way. I don't know what’s… I'm not…

Sy Hoekstra: [in a faux German accent] Sonathan Walkstra!

Suzie Lahoud: [laughing] Pretty much!

This week, the team talks with Wissam al-Saliby; an international human rights lawyer; Advocacy Officer for the World Evangelical Alliance (WEA) in Geneva, Switzerland; a founder of the Didomi Collective, whose podcast he also hosts; and a contributor to our anthology. We talk to him about why he and the WEA engage in international human rights advocacy, his perspective on religious freedom, how Christian political engagement affects our global witness, church engagement with oppressive regimes, and a lot more. It’s definitely not a conversation you get to hear every day, so check it out wherever you get podcasts! 

Shake the Dust is a podcast of KTF Press. Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Find transcripts of this show, sign up for our free mailing list, and subscribe to our blog at KTFPress.com. 

Hosts  

Jonathan Walton – follow him on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter.  

Suzie Lahoud – follow her on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter.  

Sy Hoekstra – follow him on Twitter.  

Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra – listen to the whole song on Spotify. 

Our podcast art is by Jacqueline Tam – follow her and see her other work on Instagram.  

Shake the Dust is produced and edited by Sy Hoekstra, and transcribed by Suzie Lahoud with help from Descript. 

Questions about anything you heard on the show? Write to [email protected] and we may answer your question on a future episode. 

Transcript

Wissam al-Saliby: The international politics is a difficult and challenging work, and it takes a lot of wisdom to be able to play the prophet role with these leaders, knowing that they will be upset. But if God is calling us to get them upset, but at the same time, God is calling us to tell them, “Look, I mean, there's always a way to repent and go back.”

[The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/That it will roll in abundance/ And that you’re building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.]   

Sy Hoekstra: Welcome to Shake the Dust, leaving colonized faith for the Kingdom of God, a podcast of KTF Press. I’m Sy Hoekstra here with Jonathan Walton and Suzie Lahoud. Suzie- what do we have for the people today?

Suzie Lahoud: Today we are interviewing Wissam al-Saliby, who is the Advocacy Officer of the World Evangelical Alliance (WEA) since January of 2018. Based in Geneva, he advocates with the United Nations on behalf of national evangelical alliances in over 130 countries for freedom of religion, rule of law, and human rights.

Prior to joining the WEA, al-Saliby was the Development and Partner Relations Manager of the Arab Baptist Theological Seminary, and a lead trainer in the Middle East on international humanitarian law with the Swiss organization Geneva Call. He received his undergraduate degree in law from the Lebanese University Law School, and his master's degree in international law from Aix-en-Provence University Faculty of Law in France.

We talked to him about why he and the WEA engage in international human rights advocacy, his perspective on religious freedom, how Christian political engagement affects our global witness, how churches can approach engagement with oppressive regimes, and a lot more.

As a side note, in this interview, we do touch on recent escalations in the conflict between Israel and Palestine. However, we recorded this interview not long after the ceasefire had been brokered between Hamas and Israel. So we talk about the violence like it's in the past, because the violations of the ceasefire had not yet occurred.  

Jonathan Walton: Again, thank you so much for listening to our podcast today. The best way for you to show support is to go to KTFPress.com and subscribe. That gets you our weekly newsletter on resources to help you leave colonized faith for the Kingdom of God, bonus episodes of this show, and writing from the three of us. It also supports other projects we're working on, like future books.

If you're not in a position to do that, just hit subscribe or follow on your podcast player; follow us @KTFPress on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter; and tell your friends about us. And we would love to hear from you. Send your email to [email protected] with your comments, questions, any feedback that you'd like to give us. And your question might show up on a future episode.

Sy Hoekstra: And without further ado, here is our conversation with Wissam al-Saliby.

[“Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in briefly, then fades out.] 

Sy Hoekstra: Wissam al-Saliby, thank you so much for joining us on Shake the Dust today. We really appreciate you taking the time to be with us.

Wissam al-Saliby: Thank you for hosting me.

Sy Hoekstra: So you are an international human rights lawyer. You work for the World Evangelical Alliance (WEA). Could you just give us a sense of what the WEA does and what your role is with them?

Wissam al-Saliby: So in 2018, I joined the World Evangelical Alliance as their Advocacy Officer in Geneva. I flew with my family to come to Lebanon. Sorry, I flew my family from Lebanon to come to Geneva, to work here on human rights, advocacy and religious freedom advocacy with the World Evangelical Alliance. And the World Evangelical Alliance was founded in the 1800s. The membership of the World Evangelical Alliance are national evangelical alliances all over the world, and there are more than 130 national evangelical alliances in more than 130 countries. These constitute the membership of the World Evangelical Alliance, and therefore the WEA is the body that can represent over 600 million evangelicals all over the world in the international forums as an international global voice.

And the purpose of the WEA is to equip, to strengthen the national alliances and the local evangelical churches to be a global voice for these alliances and for evangelical values. Within this perspective, the WEA has a Geneva office and the Geneva office, the mandate of the Geneva office, is to pursue advocacy for rule of law, human rights, and freedom of religion or belief as a voice for national evangelical alliances. Very practically speaking, today, I'm in touch with people from Algeria, from Nepal, from Vietnam, trying to understand what's been happening with some of the churches, the impact of COVID-19 pandemic on the churches in Algeria.

There was a court sentencing yesterday for a pastor and his assistant, and they were on for June another court decision related to the closure of churches. So we're trying to get the facts right from Algeria as well as from the other countries that I mentioned so that we can share these facts with the, with the relevant legal analysis, with the United Nations human rights mechanisms, and with diplomats here to tell them what's happening so that we help the local churches and the local evangelical alliances in those countries to help them in advocating for freedom of religion in their countries. In our office as well, as the WEA, we seek to help equip and be a voice of our member alliances all over the world. So this is very briefly what the WEA is and what the Geneva office is, and therefore what my work entails within this office.

Sy Hoekstra: So then you, as an international human rights attorney are sort of filling in the gap there and trying to advocate, not just to the UN in general, but explaining how, kind of, international human rights law applies to the individual cases that the local evangelical alliances hear about or bring up to you?

Wissam al-Saliby: Yes. And oftentimes the cases are a stark violation of international human rights law. Most of the cases we work on are freedom of religion cases, because that's the, most of the requests we currently receive from our members. And the main difficulty isn't the legal aspect. The main difficulty is actually to get the facts right. And to get, and to ask the difficult questions that the media doesn't cover. And, you know, the pastors in the field, they're great at being pastors, but they just don't know how to share the right information needed for a report in Geneva. So a lot of our effort is basically, is a lot of email exchanges, phone calls, and to understand what happened, what was the government response or lack of response, the broader context of what is happening. What was the court decision? Why? What is the, what is the decision says specifically? Can we get a copy so that we can put all of this in our report so that we are as factual as possible, accurate as possible, and then explain how this is a violation of international human rights law, specifically Article 18 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, which is our freedom of religion or belief?

In addition to this, to the issue of religious freedom, we've addressed issues of peace and security. We've addressed issues of human trafficking. And we can address anything that the local alliance ask us to- corruption, you know, broader human rights issues- within, of course, we are only limited by our capacity. Our office is small. I was the first full-time person in 2018 and now we have, we were joined by another full-time person. So we are currently two full-time person and two part-time person working in the office.

Suzie Lahoud: That's so interesting that this is sort of, in some ways, a new branch, it sounds like, of what the WEA has been doing, or almost an expansion of this work. And so could you just talk about- and I feel like this is sort of where we see an intersection of your work and kind of the theology behind it- could you talk about how the WEA sees what you do as integral to its mission as a Christian alliance?

Wissam al-Saliby: The WEA exists to serve the national alliances, national evangelical alliances, and churches to have visible, viable, vital national alliances in every country in the world to serve them and to be their voice.

One of the four pillars of WEA work is advocacy. Why? Because our alliances and the local church is engaged in advocacy. The local churches and the alliances are fighting for freedom of religion in most parts of the world, because in most parts of the world there are violations. The local churches are also involved, in some countries they work against human trafficking, in other countries they work against corruption. In many countries in Africa, they work for peace, reconciliation, interfaith dialogue, and cohesion in societies. So, because of the local churches and the national alliances are engaging at the national level, one way as a global body to serve them is to be an extension for their voice.

Now, this is the practical answer. The theological answer is, very simply, we are all created in the image of God. We are all, we have inherent dignity and rights because we are created in the image of God. We have responsibilities to respect and fulfill and enshrine the rights of others in societies.

The governments are ordained and have a responsibility towards God to respect the human rights of their citizens and not to violate them, because their citizens are in the image of God, are people, bearers of the image of God. And oftentimes we see these violations because of racism, corruption, greed, of the sinfulness that leads to denying that this other person is in the image of God. When we talk about second-class citizen, when we talk about persecution of religious minorities, when we talk about persecution of… when we talk about the caste system, when we talk about the religious other. You know, oftentimes, in politics, these terms are used to deny that this other person is in the image of God. He is a human being. We have the obligation to respect his rights. So this is the, you know, the quick theological understanding of, you know, why I engage, why I pursue the work I'm pursuing, and why the WEA also engages globally.

Suzie Lahoud: Yeah. Thank you for that. And just expanding a little bit more, could you talk about how the WEA views the United Nations, and if you feel that the United Nations is able to serve evangelical churches globally? And part of why it's so interesting what you're doing right now, and so inspiring is, I think, particularly in the United States, unfortunately, there have been some strains, I think, of evangelicalism where the United Nations and even the whole human rights project is viewed as suspect somehow. And so, yeah, if you could just expand on the perspective of the WEA on the kind of work that you're doing through the UN.

Wissam al-Saliby: So what is the United Nations? The United Nations is the gathering of all sovereign states all over the world. And this gathering of all sovereign states all over the world, you know, there is no higher or supreme authority. It’s just this big gathering and structure with a charter, with the charter of United Nations that came out after the Second World War with the aspiration for peace, for justice, for human rights, and human security.

And this charter is something that is, on paper, is something we aspire to as peacemakers, as Christians called to be peacemakers in our society. As people called to care for the people around us who are suffering injustice and to fight against this injustice, just like in the Old Testament prophets. We view this, the charter of the UN, and the idea of the UN to be extremely valuable. We should not take it for granted. I mean, it's a very young organization when you think about the history of humanity, and it's an important forum, international forum.

It's an important international forum to engage with because, while, you know, we recognize that whenever you put sinful people in a room, you're not gonna get the best results- we're all sinful- but at the same time, it is our calling as a global body, it is our calling as a church. We are not part of this world, but we are in this world. So when we go to the United Nations, we go as ambassadors of Christ. We go with a sense of that we need to engage in this forum to defend freedom of religious belief, but to do so in a way that points to the hope that we have.

We engage with the United Nations because it's a very important global forum for the same reason why we go on the mission field or anywhere else. It's just, it's just another mission field where we need to engage and help the United Nations and help the diplomats, quote unquote, to look at the UN Charter, to look at the human rights declarations and international covenants and instruments, and to help them understand and put them in practice because we are in a broken world and these ideal documents are not yet in practice. Human rights violations in the recent decade are only increasing. Violation of religious freedom is increasing according to every single report and every different methodology of how you assess it. And in this context, we feel our calling, as the World Evangelical Alliance, and, I believe that, as the church globally, is to be a voice in support of human rights and dignity, and to engage with governments, to engage with the United Nations mechanisms, with the diplomats, because that's part of our calling as a church to make, to seek peace and to humbly call out injustice.

Jonathan Walton: So, Wissam, as you were sharing, I just couldn't help but think about the, the tension that I felt as you were speaking about how you thought so aspirationally and so missionally about the United Nations. But then also thinking about how American evangelicalism’s historical view of the United Nations is very different. And so I'm wondering, particularly as you fight for religious freedom, or are you fighting for Christians’ freedom?

Wissam al-Saliby: We, as the World Evangelical Alliance globally and as the Geneva office, we advocate for freedom of religious belief for all, for everyone, because that's, because everyone is in the image of God and everyone deserves and needs to have the right for freedom of religion or belief. But also, practically, you cannot fight for the rights of one community and at a time where globally evangelicals are a minority, and in most countries, it's not just the evangelicals, but the evangelicals and other religious minorities and other communities are, their rights are violated. So in these countries, we see the local churches oftentimes, more often than not, advocating for the rights of everyone within their community, partnering with, like in India, for example, with Muslims, with, you know, other minority groups in, you know, we see this in Sri Lanka. So oftentimes in many parts of the world there are local alliances in support of protection of minorities when the church is a minority.

And we echo this, you know, at the United Nations. But fundamentally, we really believe that the strategy is, we know we need to support the freedom of religion or belief for everyone, because that's the only way we can support the church. You know, we need structural change. We don't need, you cannot advocate for a law that protects Christians. We need a law in a given country that protects everyone, including the churches.

So, yeah, that's the ethos of our advocacy and that's important in Geneva because there's a misperception that, you know, this is a, you know, that World Evangelical Alliance is a tribal group, an interest group, that are here to defend their own group. They're not committed to human rights as such. They just, they’re here to advocate their agenda- which is false. And over time, people are noticing that we are, we truly do what we're doing because one, we're grassroots, we're connected with the locals; and second, we are committed to the human rights framework because this is the value system that we believe emanates, started with the Christian biblical worldview that believes that every single human being is in the image of God. The equality, inherent dignity, you know, in the Human Rights Declaration in 1948, and everyone is endowed with reason. So this is our belief, and this is what we need to communicate in international forums.

Sy Hoekstra: I think sometimes in the US it's difficult for us to kind of wrap our heads around the framework that you just gave us, even though it's a relatively simple, reasonable seeming framework, because we are so used to here advocating for very small things that we kind of argue are, you know, oppressive towards us.

Like right now, there's a case in the Supreme Court where Christians are arguing that we should have the freedom to take public money and have Christian foster care agencies refuse to license foster parents who are same-sex couples or who are just single foster parents even. And, you know, we argue that that's a religious freedom issue, right?

So it's not the state like oppressing us. It's just the state not allowing us to use its funds to discriminate in the ways that we prefer based on kind of moral disapproval of certain types of couples and I don't, or certain types of families. And do you think that that, sort of what I would characterize as a false witness in the US, affects how the UN thinks about the World Evangelical Alliance?

Wissam al-Saliby: There is a misperception and misunderstanding of evangelicals globally, and it's not just because of the politics of, the evangelical politics in the US. There's also the evangelical politics in Africa, evangelical politics in Brazil and Latin America, and everywhere- it's causing a lot of misunderstanding. But also, the methods and approaches for advocacy that are aggressive pursued by some evangelicals. The change, seeking to change in legislation when we are failing to change the hearts of people and convincing the people has led to backlashes, has led to limited effectiveness, you know. You could, I mean, just the issues of abortion when you think of the examples of Poland and Argentina and what's happening. You know, you could have limited success, but then what is the meaning of your success at the court or the government or the parliament level if the population stands up against you? What does it mean for the church and the church witness? Difficult questions to grapple for a lot of our members and national alliances.

Now, as the World Evangelical Alliance, we are a global body representing, you know, from over 130 nations. So a lot of the questions that are, that the local alliances face at the local level, you know, we pray and support the alliances as they, and we pray for wisdom to know how to navigate it. But it's not for us to address unless it's a human rights, it has a broader human rights implication that is, that we need, and then we are requested to work on it.

So in most parts of the world, evangelicals are a minority. It's true that the church is growing and that evangelicals are growing, but we're still a minority. So it's not like we are, you know, we have the same challenges that exist in the US for example, where evangelicals have a greater margin of maneuver in politics and society. So that's why the WEA’s questions and priorities are different from what some of the things you see. And we try to reflect that we are a global body. We try to reflect we are a global evangelical body and that evangelicals are, by nature, everywhere in the world. And we, we genuinely care for the dignity and human rights for everyone.

We do, we did, we did take a stand, for example, when Swedish alliance asked us to ask, you know, to object for the denial of the right to conscientious objection for medical practitioners who are forced to partake in abortion or otherwise they will lose their license as a nurse. She wouldn't be able to practice as a nurse. There are four countries in the world, I think, where nurses are obliged to partake in abortion and there's no right to conscientious objection. And one, you know, we brought this up at the United Nations, it's a clear and cut case of violations of the right of the nurses to be forced to partake in abortion.

You know, this is the kind of causes that ended up on my desk. The ones in the US, it's, I mean, it's a national challenge and difficulty to address, but, you know, it's not necessarily yet relevant for a global human rights framework. I don't know what will happen in the future, how things will go.

Suzie Lahoud: Wissam, shifting gears a little bit, you have spent, I'm sure, a lot of time thinking about how churches should respond when they exist under oppressive regimes. And I'm thinking, specifically, not just about your work globally, but even pastors that you and I know who participated in Arab Spring uprisings in Egypt and Tunisia, and thinking about the situation in Lebanon and the protests and uprisings there. So how do you think Christians should frame their thinking about their response to corruption and tyranny and violence from the state? What are your sort of insights into that?

Wissam al-Saliby: Yeah. This is a question that I've been trying to understand and grapple because, you know, you go to meet in Geneva with diplomats of countries that are considered to be oppressive, tyrannical, committing widespread human rights violations, and you try to engage with them. But I know also that evangelicals and leaders, they engage with, you know, the WEA leadership with a lot of countries all over the world.

And the reality is, first and foremost, there's no country in the world that does not commit some form of human rights violations. I mean, of course, there are different measures, but I mean, the United States, I mean, oftentimes we criticize other countries, but the United States- the 2003 war on Iraq, the weapons sales that they do, and also the whole issue of policing and community- are all violations of human rights or include violations of human rights. So I'm saying this to say that oftentimes the discourse is that China, Russia, and Iran are the evil-doers. In reality, in my work, you see that most countries in the world there are severe difficulties and challenges for human rights, with the exception maybe of some European countries. But even Sweden that I mentioned the issue of, you know, Sweden might be viewed as, you know, as a country that respects human rights, but then nurses are obliged to partake in abortion. So, you know, every country in the world, you have to challenge the people and the authorities to tell them these, your people, your citizens, your minorities, all are equal, should be equal citizenship for all, because everyone is in the image of God, everyone has human rights and human dignity. You cannot pursue what you're pursuing in India in terms of neglecting Christian or Muslim minorities. And you cannot, in the United States, pursue policing where African Americans are being killed and shot with harming narratives and stories that we read, or, you know, China, and how the treatment of, whether Muslim or Christian minorities, et cetera.

Now, one of the challenges is we also need to keep in mind that these rulers, those who commit human rights violations, I mean, including the worst of the worst. If we say that, in Syria, for example, the killing that took place, the bloodshed, whether by the government or by opposition groups, I mean, they are also people in the image of God and also we need to pray for the Paul moment- Paul going towards Damascus and Jesus appearing to him. We shouldn't forget the story from our head when we engage with and when we denounce, when we, you know, go and say, “Listen, you're committing these violations. Let's have a conversation about it, these human rights violation.” We shouldn't leave, forget that even those people have the opportunity to repent, and we shouldn't forget that. And we should, in one way or the other, communicate this. And it's not an easy line to walk on. So I think a lot about what is the way that you go and meet, whether in Geneva, diplomats, or in the capitals, you meet the leaders and you honestly engage with them and call out injustice in their countries- and injustices that they may be committing- while at the same time, demonstrating love to them, while demonstrating God's love to them. And at the same time, not being, not allowing to be manipulated or misused for their media and PR machine saying, “We just met with this group of evangelicals and everything is going well in our country.”

So it's, the international politics is a difficult and challenging work, and it takes a lot of wisdom to be able to play the prophet role with these leaders, knowing that they will be upset. But if God is calling us to get them upset, but at the same time, God is calling us to tell them, “Look, I mean, there's always a way to repent and go back.” We should pray always to find this balance. Also, we shouldn't play into government narratives, you know, saying, “These governments are the evil and this is the good,” or “We are good and they are bad.” And I started off, I started off by saying, you know, most governments are, you know, everybody's sinful. There's no government or government leaders that are irreproachable. And we need to understand that in our engagement.

I often call on churches, and I've, recently I was having a conversation and, you know, someone asked me, “What do you think of the XYZ, bad countries, nasty countries?” And I responded thinking, “Well, before we talk about other countries, Christians should talk about their own government and country. They should call out the injustice in their society. They should call out the violations of human rights in their own society before we set out to criticize the rest of the world.”

Sy Hoekstra: Yup. And I think your essay in our book last year was, also got at this point. It was a little bit more in the foreign policy area, but just on Christians believing in the moral superiority of their country. So for a lot of really great thoughts on that, I would suggest listeners go and read that essay.

Recently, Wissam, shifting gears a little bit, you have been writing kind of online about the conflict in Israel and Palestine and trying to come up with a way of thinking about that particular situation that takes seriously the biblical call to justice for the oppressed, but also respects, you know, the image of God in all people like you've talked about a few times. Can you tell us where your thoughts are on that situation right now?

Wissam al-Saliby: Thank you. In May there was this, again, yet another massive conflict between Hamas and the Israeli army, along with demonstrations and mobilization in the West Bank and within Israel itself for the Palestinians who hold Israeli citizenship. And I'm a Lebanese. So as a Lebanese, you know, growing up in Lebanon, I mean, Israel, for me, growing up in Lebanon meant bombings and attacks and killing. You know, in 1996, Israel attacked during one of the episodes with Hezbollah. In 1996 they attacked a UN shelter where a hundred women and children were immediately killed and massacred by an Israeli attack on that shelter, you know.

And so, when you're growing up and you see that Israel is killing women and children in Lebanon, you have, you know, deep injury and hurt. So one of, before talking about what's just happened with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, I need to understand myself that I'm very much hurt, as a Lebanese, by the crimes, the war crimes, committed by the Israelis. In 2006 also, there was a war where over a thousand people, maybe, or a thousand civilians, were killed by Israel. And I was part of the Human Rights Watch team of three people- I was actually the translator back then- you know, going and investigating why these 1,000 people were killed, or more than a thousand. You know, going from one village to the other and understanding how the attack happened, what happened. And we verified that most of the people who were killed were civilians and there was no explanation or rationale why they were attacked by the Israelis. You can read the report, Why They Died by Human Rights Watch about this.

So this is a challenge for me because I have to overcome my hurt. This is where my Christian identity and my identity in Christ needs to overcome my Lebanese identity of growing up in a country where we were on the recipient end of American-made bombs sent by Israel. We need to over, I need to overcome this injury in order to genuinely love the Israeli other, this other side. Because we are called to love them, whether we want to classify them as enemies or neighbors or friends, whatever, we are called to love. And we are called to, you know, to respect that they are also in the image of God.

And this is, this was, this is always a challenge. When I read the media, and I read the accounts of what happened in May, what's happening, ongoing on, when you see on Twitter, you know, “We will not forgive. We will not forget. We will take vengeance,” and you have to be able to filter all the information that we're receiving, to filter them through the filter of the Bible that says, “Okay, you will not forget, fine. But you need to forgive. You need to forgive, but also you need to fight against the ongoing injustice. You need to, we need to, act as agents for peace.” And what does it mean to act as agents for peace when there’s, you know, there's, in Israel and Palestine specifically, but also in the region, you have Israel is Goliath and strong with nuclear weapons, with military and funding and economy, and they have chosen to, you know, oppress the Palestinians? You, when the Palestinians go demonstrate, at least one person is shot and killed. When they launch, when Hamas launches rockets, more people get killed. When, you know, the Palestinians resist their home demolition and getting kicked out of their homes, they, you know, like yesterday, there were several people detained in Sheikh Jarrah and Jerusalem.

So when the war happened in May, I was thinking, “What is my voice as an evangelical Christian?” And my voice as an evangelical Christian Arab is, first and foremost, to my own people and my own community is to say, “Violence is not the answer. Everyone is in the image of God. Everyone has inherent dignity, including the Israelis, including the Palestinians, including the Palestinians in Palestinian refugee camps in Lebanon or in Gaza or elsewhere. Including the Jews all over the world, whether those who support Israel or those who support, you know, the justice for the Palestinians.”

And then the second layer of thinking for me is it's an asymmetric war where you have one side- the Israelis they have, not only the military might, but also the media, the media and communication and the control of the narrative. And I felt, as an evangelical Christian, in addition to, for me, that everyone is in the image of God, I wanted to fight over the narrative because in the West, I felt that the Palestinian is portrayed as the terrorist or, you know, portrayed as the person who is basically, why are they launching rockets? Or, why are they demonstrating? There’s the misunderstanding of the context, of the animosity, of the violence, of every, you know, how you, what it means to growing up as a Palestinian and you end up throwing stones or throwing rockets at the Israelis, just explain all of this. And then, so I just wanted, I wanted to have this kind of contribution because I felt, I don’t know, I was thinking, “What is my calling in this situation?”

You know, I've had conversations with Palestinian refugees in Lebanon and I challenged them- you know, they're not Christian, they're Muslim- and I tried to challenge them when the conversation on, in relation to the Israelis, to see if they can envision a solution of the conflict that includes everyone, that embraces the Jewish and everyone, and they couldn't. They couldn’t, in part, because they've never met an Israeli because when you are a refugee in Lebanon, it's not like in the West Bank or in Israel where you actually meet and understand, you know, you look into the Israelis in their eyes. You know, in Lebanon there’s this distance. And so it's much easier to dehumanize and it's much more difficult for me to try to humanize the Israelis. But it’s also, there's a sense of helplessness. You're talking to people who are growing up in a camp in very difficult financial, social situation and there's helplessness. So the challenge I find is there are so many stakeholders I need to communicate with.

And that is one of the reasons why I ended up doing a podcast episode on the Didomi podcast. Didomi is a collective of Christians who work for justice and peacemaking. And I decided I want to interview Palestinian evangelicals, and you can go on didomi.co to listen to that podcast. And I wanted to challenge them and to understand from them, one of the questions is how they try to make their identity in Christ overcome their national Palestinian identity? And what is their peacemaking role? And what is, you know, how do they see peacemaking and prayer in this conflict? And it was just all attempts to be, have a constructive, edifying contribution within, you know, recognizing that it is just a drop in the water, but, you know, prayerfully thinking, “What is my personal calling into this situation?”

Sy Hoekstra: Wissam, thank you so much for your time today. Before we go, is there anything that you would like people to, obviously the Didomi podcast would be, that you just mentioned, would be one. And just so people know, that's D-I-D-O-M-I, is that correct?

Wissam al-Saliby: D-I-D-O-M-I dot C-O. It's a, Didomi is a collective of Christians, and the first thing we did was the podcast because of the pandemic. I mean, we were hoping to do something more physical. I actually, because of social media, I'm going more and more needing to engage more personal, deeper, with relationship rather than digital.

But because of the pandemic, we started off this podcast. But we're hoping on the long run to do more, you know, workshops and events discussing church witness, justice, peacemaking. I worry that people, especially young people, have a default, they default back in terms of politics to worldly, you know, engagement in politics from a worldview. They don't understand how, as a church people, we need to relate to politics. The approach and the content should be different. And I'm talking not as, you know, I'm talking as a Lebanese seeing what's happening in the Arab world and elsewhere. I'm not talking about what's happening in the United States.

Sy Hoekstra: Right. And where can people follow you online?

Wissam al-Saliby: I recently shut down my Facebook account because I grew wary with Facebook as a concept and content and everything, and privacy concerns. So I'm on Twitter currently- W-A-L-S-A- L- I- B- Y on Twitter and on LinkedIn, and that's where I share and I try to present a bit. I write often on the ABTS, Arab Baptist Theological Seminary’s blog, and there's the Didomi podcast where I, with a group of friends, we are interviewing and sharing about, oftentimes, what we work on.

Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, in addition to the Didomi blog, the ABTS blog is another good resource that listeners should check out.

Wissam, thank you so much for joining us here today.

Wissam al-Saliby: Thank you for hosting me. I really appreciate it. I appreciate the work you're doing, and thank you also for offering that I contribute to the book that you wrote.

Sy Hoekstra: Oh, of course! We loved having you and we feel the same about the work that you're doing. Thank you.

[“Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in briefly, then fades out.] 

Sy Hoekstra: Thank you so much for listening today. Please remember to take a moment to check out our blog at KTFPress.com, consider subscribing or signing up for our free mailing list, follow us on social media @KTFPress.

Remember to subscribe to this podcast or follow it, whatever your podcast player says, just click that button. That means you'll get notifications when we have new episodes, and leave us a rating and review if you can.

Also, remember to write in to [email protected] with questions, written or recorded as a voice memo. You might show up on a future episode if you do.

Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra. Our podcast art is by Jacqueline Tam, and we will see you next week when we have Professor Kristin Kobes Du Mez to talk about her book, Jesus and John Wayne. It's a good one. Everybody, we will see you then.

[“Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades back in. Lyrics: “Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” Song fades out.]  

Sy Hoekstra: Alright. So let's go to the other one, which is, I don’t know why I made these two separate documents…

Suzie Lahoud: So you could put them in the two separate folders.

Jonathan Walton: Yep.

Suzie Lahoud: [in a sing-song voice] Organi-za-tion

Jonathan Walton: [responding in a sing-song voice] Very obvious to me.

Sy Hoekstra: [laughs] Good.

Suzie Lahoud: [laughing] We should just do our own little jingles.

Jonathan Walton: [snapping fingers and singing] Hey, shake that dust!

Sy Hoekstra: Hey, shake that dust.

This week, Sy and Suzie talk to Milly Aquije, an undocumented pastor and immigration activist, and Gabrielle Apollon, a human rights lawyer who grew up undocumented (and also at some point after that married Sy). We speak to them about growing up in the US as immigrants; the many immigration advocates, including Milly, who choose to disclose their undocumented status publicly; Gabrielle’s recent article on racism in both the immigration system and the immigrant rights movement; solidarity between Black and brown communities; and a lot more. 

Shake the Dust is a podcast of KTF Press. Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Find transcripts of this show, sign up for our free mailing list, and subscribe to our blog at KTFPress.com. 

Hosts: 

Jonathan Walton – follow him on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter.  

Suzie Lahoud – follow her on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter.  

Sy Hoekstra – follow him on Twitter.  

Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra – listen to the whole song on Spotify. 

Our podcast art is by Jacqueline Tam – follow her and see her other work on Instagram.  

Shake the Dust is produced and edited by Sy Hoekstra, and transcribed by Suzie Lahoud with help from Descript. 

Questions about anything you heard on the show? Write to [email protected] and we may answer your question on a future episode.

Transcript 

Gabrielle Apollon: I mean, I think that the main thing that keeps me going, I think, spiritually is one, knowing that like my interest or passion from these things actually comes from the Lord, right? Like that God is actually the one who is the God of the foreigner and of the fatherless and of the oppressed. And seeing that, you know, seeing him be that in my life, but also seeing and getting a sense of his heart, like that God cares about all of these issues and these people way more than I ever can. And that he is at work, even over the last few years and how challenging that was, God is still at work. And I really appreciated Milly's reminder that he is sovereign and above all of these systems and is still working even in the brokenness.

[The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/That it will roll in abundance/ And that you’re building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.]   

Suzie Lahoud: Welcome to Shake the Dust, leaving colonized faith for the Kingdom of God, a podcast of KTF Press. I'm Suzie Lahoud here with Jonathan Walton and Sy Hoekstra.

Sy Hoekstra: Today, we have an interview with Milly Aquije and Gabrielle Apollon. Milly is an educator, a spiritual advisor, a mentor, and a Dreamer. She serves as a pastor at the church Reconcile Brooklyn, and is the founder of a ministry called Hoping Greatly where she focuses on uplifting others by telling her story of being an undocumented immigrant. She holds degrees from Nyack College and Hunter College, as well as a certificate from the City Seminary.

Now Gabrielle works at the Center for Human Rights and Global Justice at NYU Law, where she is a director on the Project for Human Rights in Haiti's Emerging Mining Sector, and a supervisor on the Project for Torture, Rendition, and Detention. She previously served as managing attorney at The Door, a center for alternatives where she represented undocumented young people in immigration and family law matters. She got her JD at NYU Law, and she also has both a bachelor's and a master's of international affairs from Columbia University. And in addition to all those things, Gabrielle is also my wife.

So Jonathan, just because of a scheduling conflict couldn’t make this interview, but Suzie and I talked to Milly and Gabrielle about their experiences growing up undocumented in the United States, the decisions of many immigration advocates- including Milly- who choose to disclose their immigration status publicly while they are still undocumented, Gabrielle's recent article on the racist origins of the immigration system, solidarity between Black and brown communities, and a lot more. And, of course, we have a link to Gabrielle's article in the show notes if you want to read that and get more of a context for what we're talking about.

One last thing, and then I will be quiet. There was a little bit of a problem with Milly's mic on this episode. She was a little bit quiet and there were some kind of strange noises that the mic was making at a couple of points, but it's still completely listenable and this is just such a great conversation we obviously, we wanted you all to hear it. We know what the problem is. It's not going to happen again. I just wanted to flag that for all of you. Thanks!

Jonathan Walton: Thank you all so much for tuning into the podcast today. The best way to support the show is to go to KTFPress.com and subscribe. That gets you our weekly newsletter on resources to help you leave colonized faith for the Kingdom of God, bonus episodes of this show, and writing from the three of us. It also supports other projects like future books that we're working on.

If you aren't in a position to sign up, make sure you hit subscribe or follow on your podcast player. Follow us @KTFPress on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter. And please do tell your friends about us.

We'd love to hear from you, so take a moment to send an email to [email protected] with any questions you might have, comments on the show, or even a voice memo with a question you might have for us. And you may show up on a future episode.

Suzie Lahoud: Now that that's out of the way, let's get to it. Here's our interview with Milly and Gabrielle…

[“Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in briefly, then fades out.] 

Sy Hoekstra: Milly and Gabrielle- welcome to Shake the Dust! Thank you so much for being with us today.

Gabrielle Apollon: Thanks for having us!

Sy Hoekstra: So we have, we don't have Jonathan, but we still have a bit of a full house here. But let me, let's just get us started by introducing the two of you and your stories a little bit to the listeners. Could you just give us a brief kind of summary of what it was like for the two of you growing up undocumented in the US? And let's start with Milly since you've already written about this for KTF Press in the article that you had in our anthology.

Milly Aquije: I would say, it was tough. It was tough. I didn't even know I was undocumented.

Sy Hoekstra: Until when?

Milly Aquije: Until the moment that I went to high school and I was applying for college, you know, in New York. So I'll never forget, you know, going all nice and dandy to my guidance counselor. I was definitely that, you know, student always trying to make sure I had every credit, everything there, submitting my application for CUNY, and there she's like, “Hey, so you're missing your social security number. Do you have it?” And I was like, “I don't know, but I'm going to ask my mom.” So I went to my mom and that's where she sat me down. She was like, “So, about that...” you know? And that's where I knew my story of yes, that I was different.

Did not know exactly what that meant, right, for college and stuff. And then, yeah, from there on was, I would say, the beginning of a journey for me to assimilate that I was undocumented, but then to know what does that look like to actually provide for everything, all my schooling, from scratch, you know?

So yeah, that was the moment in that high school office with my guidance counselor.

Sy Hoekstra: How did you then get through college to where you are today? Cause you, I mean, you went to college. So what happened?

Milly Aquije: When it came to applications, I was encouraged to still apply to college. Cause that's one thing I was thinking about, not because of knowing this is going to be different for me. I'm not sure how that's going to go, but thankfully, I had the support of my faith community and also, you know, my family. Of course, they're always pro-, as a first-generation Latina, that I am, you are pro-education. So I, yeah, I had to take, you know, basically out of the books jobs, you know, babysitting, tutoring, you name it. Sometimes I had to take two or three jobs at a time and a semester in order to provide for my tuition for my books and had to just provide for everything for me.

And I really have to say, I think my greatest moment was coming across campus ministry InterVarsity Christian Fellowship where I met other college-aged students and had a wonderful, wonderful staff worker who just believed in me and loved on me. And she's the first one outside of my community- Latin American community, Pentecostal church, and my family- that I was able to release my news. And she always believed in my leadership and was just so avid in like, “Milly, you should go to this conference,” and it was over, like, not in New York. And for me that was a trouble because I had no documents. I can't travel via plane. And that's where I remember releasing my story with so much shame and guilt, because I didn't want her to look at me differently.

Sy Hoekstra: Thank you very much for sharing that. Gabrielle, can you give us, give us a little bit of your story?

Gabrielle Apollon: Sure. And I was actually, Milly, after reading your essay, I thought that, you know, we would have like quite different stories in terms of this, but actually, I think a lot of what you said really resonated. So I became- I was going to say I became undocumented- but I didn't really fully understand this either until later on because my family is from Canada and originally from Haiti. I grew up in Kansas City. There were not that many other immigrants around when I grew up, or where I grew up, in Olathe and Overland Park, specifically. But we actually kind of went in and out of status, which I think, is not something people usually think about when they think of people who are undocumented. It actually can be quite fluid sometimes. And so for me, I didn't necessarily understand what our statuses were for the majority of my childhood in Kansas City. And again, similar to Milly, it wasn't until I, you know, when push came to shove, when I had to figure out how to get into college and specifically, who was going to pay for college, that it really hit home.

And before that, I would say, you know, looking back, I think that the biggest impact that being undocumented had for my family was poverty. As a result of that, when I was applying for college, I knew very clearly that unless I got a full ride, I wasn't going to be able to go because there were, there were no resources. I mean, it was hard enough to like find money for rent the next month, let alone college fees. And so that really shaped, you know, it becoming very, very real, very quickly. Thankfully, I ended up by, truly by the grace of God, and I think this is one of those times where I really, one of the first times I saw God really provide so powerfully in my life, was I got a full ride scholarship, which was really the only way I was going to go to school.

But the other thing that resonated with me that you shared Milly, and the other ways that I saw God provide was in the, in the lack of financial resources, our church family really just pulled us through. And there were various church families, but really those were the people who were giving us rides to school, and helping us cover rent, and bringing groceries when we needed them and stuff. And then I saw the community and, you know, God's like financial and miraculous provision.

Suzie Lahoud: Hmm. Yeah, thank you both so much for sharing, and we're looking forward to digging more into your experiences and your stories. And Milly, going back to you specifically, could you tell us what went into the process of deciding to publicly disclose your undocumented status? And I'll be honest, the three of us editors, when you contributed to our anthology, we were kind of shocked and surprised that you were willing to publish, you know, this beautiful essay about your experience of being undocumented and your experience with the church and to put your full name on it. We assumed that you would do that anonymously. And I know that your willingness to publicly disclose that information has also been a huge part of your advocacy. So yeah, if you could just share about that process and that decision.

Milly Aquije: It was, I would say it was gradual from the moment that I just mentioned previously in our last question of me coming out of the shadows to my staff worker of InterVarsity of Hunter College and letting her know, and just seeing her love for me and how she prayed and cried with me of the injustice that I had had all my life since my mom, the way my mom brought me here.

Unfortunately, my parents were low resourced in Peru, so that's where I'm from. And actually, around this time, they were so traumatized from what was happening that they actually were in a certain time period in Peru called la senda luminosa, which basically was a time period where they were kidnapping children. But then also my father- he was a great construction worker, he had his own company- around the same time, he actually was robbed. So for him, to see the future was outside of Peru, and for the safety of his family. So he went forth first and then came my mom.

But in this time, you know, we weren't resourced at all. So she tried as much to get a lump sum of money in order to find a trusted coyote. That's what it's called- the person who crosses someone. And yeah, and she, with me in hands- I was three years-old when we crossed; I actually made my birthdate; so I crossed in my birthdate, cause I'm an August baby and stuff. But long story short, my mom made this decision, you know, and it was very risky. Absolutely, now knowing the stories that I hear from other fellow undocumented friends that I've had as well.

And I think when we started hearing as a family about the discrimination and racism, especially with Trump coming to power and hearing his campaign, I would say that's where we had a conversation. I had a conversation with my parents like, “This isn't right. What should we do about it? What are your thoughts?” And they were spent because unfortunately they have tried to renew, their, as well, like adjuster status. And they did it back in 2001. But unfortunately, later on, we found out that it was through a fraudulent agency. It was reported a few years ago. So they’ve gone through a lot when it comes to that. So they were spent already around this time a few years ago, and they were like, “You know what?” They, pretty much, they were like, “We're so done with this system. If you choose to go ahead and share your story, we're okay with it.”

And they gave me that blessing, but without their blessing to actually be out of the shadows, I would not have come out with my story. And also, I think, also them seeing the support of our faith community, my mentors, just, and also friends that are as well, advocates and allies of immigrants. They saw that strength from carrying me over from undergrad to grad school, where I had to, as well, grieve an unmet expectation for grad school around, I know, I would think it was 2014 or so because the laws of course weren't permitting for me to apply for a certain program, because that would mean that I would need a licensure with that type of program. And I can't because I'm not a US citizen or resident.

So it's things like this that I think my family saw God’s favor and also God's provision for our family, absolutely in everything, that they were open for me to start telling my story. And it was great because I remember I also had my moment, my, I would say my complete poignant out of the shadows moment when I wanted to, as well, give up from ministry, give up from seminary in one semester, because it was just so much of like, I was working, I was, I think as well, doing my field work for seminary and taking the seminary course. I remember, because that was my next, I was an urban ministry major, and I'll never forget this class because there is where I was taught about the God who sees, who hears those in the margins. And I never heard that in my life. I heard it, maybe certain things, but this person just went completely dived into scripture and seeing how there's so many people that have been in the margins, mentioning the story of Esther, how she had to be in the shadows with her identity, but then revealed it for the people. And so for me, that's where I was like, reading this book too, Liberty to the Captives by Reverend Dr. Raymond Rivera, I cried my eyes out cause I knew exactly what God was calling me to do, which was to tell my story, stop hiding my light underneath and put it back on the hill.

So from there forward, you know, with the counsel of my mentor, Maritza Crespo- love her. She's been with me for years, her and Orlando. I really believe I am their honorary daughter for sure these past few years. And if you knew anything about the Crespos, they’re absolutely high supporters of immigrants and just the Latino community as well. And it gave me strength and gave me courage to continue forward in knowing that even if Trump was elected, which we know he was, right, I could still continue forward with just wonderful mentors like them.

And so many others that have come like Jonathan Walton too, you know, when I was grieving, you know, from Trump presidency, Trump being elected, what does that mean for me? So I think, knowing the strength of allies and just people who love me and know my story gave me the courage to continue standing, but also seeing the hurt on campus.

So when Trump got elected, I'll never forget this moment because I was working in administrative role in Hunter College and started seeing in our Facebook group one of our young girls just came out of the shadows and saying, “How do I bridge my faith as a DACA recipient and knowing that people who say yes to Jesus are saying that I should get out of this country? I don't know how to bridge my faith with, you know, with this, everything going on now.” And it was nice, I saw other students saying, you know, encouraging her, praying for her. But I knew that that was it. That was the kick I needed. And I was like, “I know exactly how you feel.” And there is where probably, in a Facebook group, I came out of with my story and it's been ever since. And I've seen the more I say the story it's been helpful for me too. It's been a great healing process of knowing that I'm being enabled to bridge both, you know, my story of being in the margins, but also bridging the hurt and the fear that unfortunately were in the rhetorics with Trump of the discrimination and racism of Christians.

So it's been awesome to do that as well in certain spaces with the undocumented community, or I would say, the DACAmented community too for me as a DACA recipient, when they're like, “Oh my gosh, are all of them racist? Are all of them this?” And then I’m like, “Hi,” you know, “my name is this, and guess what? I am a pastor. And I’m a DACA recipient. Like how in the heck did that happen?” So it's been so amazing being part of those spaces, especially in the last presidential election where we were all grieving together, and like of when is that decision going to come? How is it going to happen?

But then I'll never forget many DACA recipients talking about their churches that were absolutely filled with immigrants. And yet their faith leaders were absolutely advocating for Trump. And then trying to just go through that, and me just speaking to them and saying, “I'm so sorry. Not all of them are like that. Guess what? I'm a pastor. I'm doing this. I'm here with you.” And so many were like, so sweet and just like saying, “How? Like can you tell us more?” And it's been awesome to kind of be that person and like saying, “Yeah, you can bridge both. It's not an anomaly.” But I always have to start apologizing all the time when it comes to outside of faith networks, because people are afraid of Christians.

Sy Hoekstra: What you just gave us was a lot of the reasons that you, you know, your motivations and the power of your community, and the ways that you were thinking about this as a minister. You didn't exactly talk about what a big risk it was for you. Like it, which was, you know, I think part of the decision for anybody who's, you know, there are lots of advocates who have made the same decision that you have to be very public and like to tell people, you know, as the movement says all the time, “You're not alone,” but it's a seriously enormous risk to yourself. And I don't know if you have anything to say about that, but I just wanted to point that out to the listeners, like, this is not a safe decision.

Milly Aquije: Yeah, I think for me, it's just knowing God's Providence. I, it really is knowing God's protection and oversight regardless of the risk. And also me being comfortable with uncomfortability and the school of uncertainty.

And the reason I say this is all my life has been uncertain and I never knew it until that moment in the guidance counselor in high school. So I have seen God's amazing ways that he's come through for me. So taking this risk, yes, was it like fear-filled in the beginning? Absolutely. I feel like I started telling my story afraid, but I definitely have to say that the, I see God's just hand and protection all the time. Like, and I have been talking about it a lot lately with other colleagues and just talking with other advocates too who are also in the same, you know, status as I am, who are DACA recipients. And we all are in agreement in saying like, we'd rather take this risk and even, you know, be subjected to deportation versus not talking about it at all and people thinking they're alone in this journey; they're alone in their uncertainty, in their fear, in just the rhetorics they hear.

And I have to say, the more risk I've taken, the more I've seen God's hand with me. And what gives me hope too, is also where God has me. Like I ran away from what I'm doing, right, as a minister and a licensed clergy. But once I said yes, I have to say that just so many things have lined up in my favor that it's just, it really has been God sent. And also knowing that under the Evangelical Covenant Church, as a licensed clergy with them, they're high advocates as well for justice and women in leadership has given me as well, I would say, the strength to continue speaking as well, my story, knowing that if the worst case scenario happens, I know regardless in this organization, I will definitely find a way to continue doing the work that I believe God has called me for as a minister, but then also of being that bridge for faith and justice in my story, no matter where I go.

So that's one thing too that I've learned too, even though yes, the system gives me the limits, the fear tactics, right, of being like a bird in a cage or an expansive cage, a little bit, with DACA. It's also knowing who am I like listening to higher than these systems and these principalities of the world? And that's where I've been my aim for, with my grounding with God. And I have seen that, yes, he is absolutely beyond these cages, beyond these principalities, and beyond the risk.

And I also know my rights. So that's one thing too, that I've loved in having this very grassroots way of immigration activism through knowing other DACA recipients and undocumented is the advocacy, but then also their encouragement, especially by one dear friend, just an encouragement of them always saying, “Know your own rights too. Not only the rights that you're limited here in America, but know your rights too according to your citizenship in your country.”

So that's one thing that's been also given me a lot of strength because as a Peruvian citizen, I actually have more rights and liberties and able to travel abroad without a visa for certain European countries, that has been new, a new integration of the Peruvian president with the European Union just a few years ago.

And man, I'm like, why am I feeling so limited in this country, right? And stuff. And so this is also what gives me the courage is knowing for myself and knowing that there's more beyond America as well for me.

Gabrielle Apollon: Yeah, I mean, Milly, I think what you shared about kind of the power in your vulnerability and coming out of the shadows, I think, is mirrored actually in the broader immigration advocacy space, because I think the, what we've seen happen over the last, you know, 10, maybe 15 years, around DACA, and the realization that young people who, you know, similar near situation, who have had no, who had no choice in the matter, should get, you know, rights, shockingly, in this country and get some relief from deportation- that actually all came about from DACA recipients themselves deciding to come out, even against the advice of their immigration lawyers, like I used to be, and everyone who knew the risks that that could have. But actually almost all of the policy movement came from young people coming out and saying like, “No, this is what we want. This is what we should have.” And, I don't know, I'm just struck by that. That that has, that is, it's not just an individual story. It's actually part of the movement. And I think that that's so important. And I recognize, I feel like I need to also recognize that, you know, for me, as a formerly undocumented person, it is a bit safer for me to talk about this history and stuff. But there are so many people like you who have said, you know, regardless of what's happening, kind of, on the policy or the legal front, I'm going to share my story. I'm going to share, you know, what I deserve and advocate for that. And I just think that's so important.

Suzie Lahoud: Yeah, and thank you so much for making that connection, Gabrielle, and thank you again, Milly, for sharing. I’m just so struck by, as Sy pointed out, the courage that went into that decision, and then also the care in the sense that it was very much a communal decision. You know, the fact that it impacted your immediate community- your family, and you sort of needed to seek their blessing and their consent. And I appreciate that so much. And then the fact that you sort of made this decision for your community, the broader community that you're in. And so it was really sort of sacrificial in that sense.

And going back to your essay in our anthology, Keeping the Faith, Milly- you talk about the anti-Blackness that sometimes manifests in the immigration rights movement itself, and Gabrielle, if we could just pivot back to you: could you explain a little bit about what that looks like and what people can do to help the movement do better?

Gabrielle Apollon: Well, I think that as an immigration lawyer, I was practicing for about five years prior to my current role. You know, as I mentioned before, I'm Haitian Canadian, and due to my language experience, due to my interests, a lot of my clients were either Haitian or French speaking from West Africa.

And, you know, that was, what I discovered was, it's relatively rare, even in a city like New York, which is super diverse. And as I, you know, kept trying to advocate for my clients, kept trying to advocate for language access and highlighting kind of the challenges that Black immigrants had, I often felt like a broken record. I often was like, “How am I the only one mentioning French and like, the need for things to be translated in French and Kreyol? Or how is this just what I do in every meeting and I look around and very few other people are doing it?” And so I started to, you know, maybe be a little self-conscious like, “Oh, I guess I'm going to make this comment again. I guess I'm gonna say this repeatedly.” And I was like, “Maybe I'm just overthinking this. Like maybe I'm being a little too extra.”

And then last summer hit. And more people started talking about racial justice in the aftermath of George Floyd's murder. And what I discovered, and that was the first time, in like almost all of the immigration advocacy and legal services spaces that I was in, where we started, I started hearing people talk about Black immigrants and I was like, “Huh. So this is actually, it wasn't just in my head.” Right? Like people were realizing and thinking about it and therefore proactively starting- and I emphasize the word starting- to think about how their programs and how their advocacy may be overlooking or erasing certain immigrants.

And I think that if I was to probably try to summarize, it would be there's an erasure and an overlooking of Black immigrants within the mainstream narratives of immigration and what it means to be an immigrant. I think most of the time we often only think about Latino immigrants. We often only think about Spanish as a language of immigrants or of immigration. And that's just very much not the case, right. Especially in a city like New York, but across the nation.

And so, you know, there are obviously very real problems within our whole immigration system. You know, Black immigrants, just like in the criminal justice system, are often the ones that feel the full weight of the criminalization and the draconian policies that our immigration system has. However, that story is often not told. And so I think that the immigrant narratives that, not just in the immigration system, but within the movement themselves, I think we have to be honest about the fact that anti-Blackness is actually not just an American thing. Unfortunately, it is a global phenomenon and there's lots of anti-Blackness in Latin America, and, you know, across the world. And that bias, whether implicit or not, does come with people, you know, it does cross borders. And so, unfortunately, I think that that bias is within our movements of advocates. It's within our movements of activists as well.

And I think unless we address it head on and, you know, and there are some organizations that have been created to address this issue, like UndocuBlack, BAJI- Black Alliance for Just Immigration. I think we need those organizations to, Haitian Bridge Alliance, to bring these things to the forefront but most importantly, we also need the main organizations with most of the resources to really kind of reflect and look inward and think, how are we perpetuating these anti-Black, anti-Black rhetoric, anti-Black narratives as well?

I will say that, you know, that translates into resources, right? Because if people aren't thinking about Black immigrants, then they're not thinking about hiring people who speak the languages that Black immigrants often speak, whether it be, you know, French or Kreyol or other languages that people speak in Africa. That's one thing, but then you also have like funders, right. Are funders looking at the types of immigration relief that a lot of Black immigrants, you know, need? You know, recently, Temporary Protected Status, which is a form of temporary immigration relief, was just granted for Haiti. And one of my big concerns is, you know, there are potentially about 150,000 Haitians who will be eligible to get this relief, but are they going to find the legal service providers to help them with those types of cases? I don't know. And I hope so, but I think that, you know, there need to be resources towards that whether private, public, et cetera.

Sy Hoekstra: So Gabrielle, you recently wrote an article that we will link to in the show notes about the anti-Blackness and specifically, the anti-Haitian prejudice that is sort of at the foundation of the current mass immigration detention system. Can you explain a little bit about that history?

Gabrielle Apollon: Sure. And I will say, and share a story, it's actually, unfortunately, the entire immigration system that, you know, is based on white supremacy, sadly. And that, you know, that could be a whole class in and of itself. I will say I did, I taught like a little seminar to eighth and ninth graders about immigration, and I was like, “Okay, what's like one thing I really want them to know?” And I guess that's what I decided on, that like actually the whole system, unfortunately, is founded on a pretty, pretty troubling and white supremacist foundation. And so I shared about, you know, the Chinese Exclusion Act and some of these first cases, immigration cases, that were all about, “How white are you?” and that will determine, you know, if you're considered white, then you can immigrate. If you're not, then, you know, sucks for you. And so I did this whole spiel. I like went through kind of the long, kind of, timeline of this. And then at the end- first off, I just love New York City kids because they will keep it real, all the time- this, one of the girls raised her hand. She was like, “So is your whole point that the whole system's racist?” Like, duh. Obviously, we know this. And I was like, “Ah, yes. Okay. New York City teenagers do not need to be reminded of the racism of the system.” And so that was a very good, humbling reminder of the reality of our city and this country.

But, I will say- just to speak to the immigration detention system- so the system that we know, you know, is very recent. So actually, having so many people in immigration detention, which is prison, right? It is the same facilities. Literally, the same buildings that function as jails are also the ones that we, for some reason, seem to also believe that people whose only crime is being an immigrant and trying to, you know, get a better life or lavi miyò [the better life], as we say in Kreyol, that that should be, should be treated horribly. And, you know, not to mention all of the problems that we already have in our criminal justice system, but that system is very, it's very new. And it was actually not until the seventies when Haitians were fleeing a brutal dictatorship, Haitians started coming en masse in, you know, some people have probably seen images of what they call boat people, people traveling in extremely dangerous boats that weren't meant for that, but because they were fleeing atrocities, right. But when they arrived on these shores, our, this nation's administration at the time was primarily focused on how do we stop this influx. And their, the way they decided to handle that was, “Let's make detention mandatory.”

So it used to be, usually, only in exceptional circumstances that we would detain immigrants or imprison them, and they actually made it the blanket kind of rule. And, for certain times, didn't even allow bond in an effort to quote, “deter,” deter more immigrants. And that's actually, that was the genesis of the system we have now.

Sy Hoekstra: I should just note: “bond” is the immigration system’s equivalent of “bail” in the criminal justice system.

Gabrielle Apollon: Exactly. And, you know, this is a time where there were, there were lots of Cuban refugees also fleeing, right. But they were actually, in most cases, not treated in the same way, not detained mandatorily. And then you have, in the nineties, where a lot of people don't know, prior to what Guantánamo is now, actually, Haitians were detained, intercepted in the shores, and detained on Guantánamo in 1990.

And so, for me, that's like a very, a visceral, just, reality of what we are willing to do to Black immigrants, that that actually continues on to this day. So to this day, Black immigrants spend more time in solitary confinement in immigration detention, while only 7% of non-citizens in the US are Black, Black immigrants represent 20% of people facing deportation on criminal grounds.

And there are a lot of other examples where, as I mentioned before, Black immigrants bear the brunt of the terrible ways that we treat, not just immigrants, but people, in the criminal justice system as well. So that's a little bit of the overview. There's so much more obviously.  

Sy Hoekstra: Just one thing I want to highlight from your article is the fact that at first they started applying this mandatory detention to Haitians only. And then when a lawsuit was brought, right, this is how it worked? When a lawsuit was brought, alleging that that was discrimination, the Reagan administration said, “Oh, okay. Well then we'll do it to everyone.” And like, that's how it started, right? It's like, “If we can't be discriminatory about this, then we're just going to do it to everybody.”

Gabrielle Apollon: Yup. And actually, so I just had a thought and Milly, I just appreciated, kind of what you shared that, that you highlighted, you know, in the short essay that you wrote, you thought it was important to highlight this Afro-Latino perspective. So I would love, if you don't mind- and I'm just going to ask a question- if you could share a little more about why you, why that was important to you to highlight. Cause unfortunately, I don't often hear that.

Milly Aquije: Yeah. One of the reasons it was very important for me to highlight that is because I have an Afro-Peruvian dad. So my dad is definitely mestizo colored, darker skinned. My mom is not. My mom, you can definitely, probably, think that she's European if anything, because she's very, very light-skinned and that's because my mom also, from her mom's side, her mom's, my grandmom, is Peruvian from her mom's side, but Italian from her dad's side.

So I have Italian roots to my mom, but then through my father, I have African roots, but also indigenous roots. So for me, it was very important for me to highlight that because I know what it was for me to be in a school system that was predominantly, my neighborhood was predominantly Polish, and I'll never forget being questioned when my father would pick me up of like, “Oh, are you sure this is your father?” And I was like, “Yeah, this is my father.” And over the years I did see certain things happen to my father that were a little bit unusual. I didn't know, as a kid, of course, that's racism, right. Because as well, my parents wanted me to assimilate the American system. And also, I would say my own, you know, white passingness as a Latino. He had, he mentioned to me, you know, that at times it was harder for him. You know, he had to always like, defend himself, or fight for his honor, or sometimes assimilate, you know, certain remarks of him as an immigrant, you know, of course getting like low paying jobs right, in construction, and being treated, or maltreated should I say, because, you know, he is being paid off the books.

And so hearing that from my father, and then also when I learned more about, as well, my African roots in Peruvian history and in our music and everything. I know that there are so many that don't even know our own history as Latin Americans where all of us, none of us are any sort of pure breed. All of us have a mixture of African roots because the African diaspora, all of it came to Latin America, Central America, South America, everything.

So we all have that. And I feel like there’s been an erasure complex as well in the Latin community of not identifying as our African roots. And to me, I'm absolutely in complete disagreement with that because we are denying a part of ourselves and our history. And that's literally in our roots, in our generations, in our ancestors. And if people want to be white-passing, to each his own, but I know for me and my family and where I've been upbringed, I am not going to stand for that.

So even when the rising of, of course, of protests from last year- Black Lives Matter- I actually had a very distinct opportunity that I didn’t even think I would even get, where I remember waiting for a few of our congregants, cause we were part of the Pray. March. Act. protest, peaceful protest as, you know, Christian clergy, and just, us, the Christian community, also having a peaceful protest saying Black Lives Matter. And I'll never forget, cause I was waiting for our congregants in a certain corner in Fourth Avenue in Brooklyn, and a reporter from Telemundo came to me and asked me, “Hey, you know, are you Latina? Are you, can you speak Spanish?” I was like, “Yeah.” “Would you be okay in being interviewed and talking about this event?” And I was like, “Yeah, sure.” So there, you know, by God's grace, I didn't even think that this would happen, they interviewed me quickly of why was I there? What was the purpose of the event? And what do I have to say to our community? And I was honest in saying like, “Hey, we need to also stand up for this too, because we are also affected from this. Black Lives Matter is for our lives too, because we also are Black.” I'm pretty sure they probably cut that part a little bit, to be honest. [Sy and Gabrielle laugh]

A lot of people started texting me after a certain hour because they aired it and my phone is like blowing up. And then my sister was like, “Oh my gosh, check your phone.” And I was like, “What happened?” And that's where many people were just like, shouting me out. Like “Milly, thank you so much for saying that,” and stuff like that. My parents too, they were like, “Oh my gosh. Like people from our church were telling us, ‘Your daughter’s famous.’” And I'm like, “That was like, probably like 30 seconds of my life, you know what I mean?” But I noticed that I have to speak up because no one else will, you know, and I was like, “Well, God, you gave me an opportunity. I've been speaking up for immigrant rights. Might as well speak up for my brothers and sisters who are also suffering every single day, just like I am,” you know?

And it's even worse, I would say, in a ways too, because like, you know, always be, I can't imagine that because I have my shadows moments as well, too. I’m not all the time am I always in courageous mode or anything like it, but I can't imagine always fearing for your life every single moment you're coming, you're driving, right. Or I'm just doing, you know, different, simple tasks because of the color of your skin. You know? So it's just things like this that I, I knew for me, it was a non, like, it was a no-brainer. I had to stand up for it.

Gabrielle Apollon: I so appreciate you sharing that because I think that the church has a lot of work to do on so many different fronts racially, right? Like there's obviously the, there's obviously challenges between Black and white church members. There are definitely things that we're grappling with on how we, how we treat and ignore, oftentimes, our Asian brothers and sisters. But I also think like, again, as a Haitian and knowing the history between Haiti and the D.R.- which is often where this comes up- there is a lot of healing to be done as to like, how do other people of color treat Black people, right. And like, you being honest and open and recognizing that, I mean, does healing, I think, is really encouraging for me because I do hope that that would be something that is also like more, you know, recognized and like shared and spoken about openly between, you know, brothers and sisters of color within the church as well.

Milly Aquije: Yeah. And I'm in agreement with you, Gabrielle. And the reason I'm saying this is, I'll never forget that day in June, Pray. March. Act., checking my phone, and one of my friends that I wanted to check in with her, cause I know this is very true to her heart, being African-American, and I told her, “Hey, you know, I just want to check in with you. How are you? Are you okay?” And just sharing this moment. And she was so honest with me and saying, “Thank you so much for being there. And thank you so much for speaking.” And there, she told me this, “I apologize, Milly, that I never was there for you, and your in as well in what you advocate for and what you stand for. And I want to learn more.”

Let me just say that for me, like it was such a great, like you said, healing moment for me, but then also a moment of like, “Oh gosh, like there's so much that, with that right. More conversation that needs to be done.” And I believe that, you know. And I think it starts with us, like with each other, you know, and just talking and just being honest in the inter-ethnic conflict we have with each other too, with, I'll be honest, it's just a hand-me-down of our generational biases and discrimination that we've been taught from our family of origins, of our parents.

So I think it's been such a healing experience for me as well from African-American community too, in knowing we always have had alliances, but sometimes we've just never spoken about it because of our own, I would say, unspoken differences, but yet very similarities that we have as just power people. And how do we embrace that for the next? I'm not sure, in a sense of like, advocacy mutually for each other in each other's causes and then also helping other communities who don't know or who are just standing up now, right, as well. So I think for me, I also am in agreement with you of us needing so much inter-ethnic healing between Black and brown communities to then go ahead and engage and help other communities too.

There's so much there. And I hope, that's one of the reasons why I love so much what I do as well in being on the ground in ministry with others and having these talks and knowing it's okay to be not okay, right. It's okay as well to have a mental health checkup, because I don't know what I would do without my therapist, to be honest with you, you know, for sure.

She knows all my stories. So it's, it's great. And I need that, right. But then also, yeah, it's okay for us to have these conflicts of talking with each other's communities because it's healthy.

Gabrielle Apollon: And I'm glad you mentioned that, and then, sorry- I will let the hosts do the rest of their work [laughs]- but I think that's so true that like, you're right. Like on the flip side, have Black Christians really been speaking up about immigration issues all the time? Like I think that that's a real, that's a real question. And UndocuBlack has, I have a sweatshirt, that they say, that says, “Immigration is a Black issue,” right? And it shouldn't just be because there are Black immigrants. You're right. It should be because, you know, our brothers and sisters are also impacted and in such dramatic ways, and that should shape us, that should shape our theology, that should shape what we care about. So thank you. And thank you for that call. Cause I think that's so important.

Milly Aquije: No, thank you, Gabrielle, for mentioning that as well, because I am with you. Absolutely. A hundred percent. And the reason I say this is, now I’ll discuss this, now I’ll let, as well, our hosts continue the conversation, which is, I'll never forget going to a celebration for DACA, but then also the José Peralta Law, with the CUNY group that one of my friends was part of, and she's a DACA recipient, but she's not Latina, she is definitely of Jamaican descent. And I'll never forget her invitation. And she was honest with me in saying, “I want you to come with me, and you'll see why, because I know you're part of like activism, but you’ll also understand what I mean.” And I did like, if it wasn't for me to translating certain things that mind you, they were celebrating and they still started celebrating in like, completely Spanish poetry at times, or saying certain Spanish things. I felt so bad for my friends.

And that is something that I believe we need to do better in immigration activism, in putting every single person's story there. If, yes, if you have, like someone that's doing pure Spanish poetry, you best believe you have someone translating that poetry

Gabrielle Apollon: Amen.

Milly Aquije: and then having others, you know, speak about it, you know. Like there's other, like you said, you know, African, Black, and everything, having others part of that line up, because immigration, we're so divided, but yet we have to be united because it's all of us. It's not just Latinos and speaking in Spanish of advocacy, it's our African brothers, its our Asian brothers, right. And so on and so forth. And I think for me, this was my first kind of, I would say, disheartening in seeing in activism. And I'm like, “Why are we doing this, if we're so better united?”

Suzie Lahoud: Yeah. And I'll just say, you guys don't have to apologize for talking to each other. [Gabrielle laughs] This is an egalitarian space and I'm just,

Milly Aquije: Yes, I love it! [Milly laughs]

Suzie Lahoud: I’m just grateful to be privy to the richness of your conversation.

Sy Hoekstra: Right. Exactly. The two of us could just shut up and this would be a great show.

Suzie Lahoud: Absolutely. Absolutely. We'll just let you host yourselves next time. We'll just open the door and you come in. You can have our house.

Gabrielle Apollon: We’ll be guest, guest cohosts.

Suzie Lahoud: Yeah, that'll be great. Yeah.

So I guess, you both shared, in the beginning, when you talked about your stories, you shared some really beautiful experiences of how the church supported you both and your families, but also you've kind of touched on throughout the course of this interview- and I know you just shared a bit about this, just now, Gabrielle- about the work that the church still needs to do around these issues. And Milly, this is also something you touched on quite poignantly in your essay, in Keeping the Faith. And so, in reflecting on kind of some of the pain and rejection that you both have also experienced in your journeys with the church as you've been walking through this, could you both share a little bit about what keeps you going, both, you know, as believers who are actively involved in your church communities and in your advocacy, despite those difficult things?

Gabrielle Apollon: Sure. I think, so I guess that it's two-fold, I think. I mean, I think that the main thing that keeps me going, I think spiritually, is one, knowing that my interest or passion from these things like actually comes from the Lord, right. Like that God is actually the one who is the God of the foreigner and of the fatherless and of the oppressed. And seeing that, you know, seeing him be that in my life, but also seeing and getting a sense of his heart, whether it's through scripture, or just, you know, movements and having to remind myself, and Sy knows this all too well, like that God cares about all of these issues and these people way more than I ever can. And that he is at work even, you know, even over the last few years and how challenging that was, like, God is still at work.

And I really appreciated Milly's reminder that like, he is sovereign and above all of these systems and is still working even in the brokenness. And so I think for me, that is like, I actually have to keep that really close to not get completely disillusioned and despondent really.

But then I also think like I, you know, I can just say that, you know, I have a few texts chains of my friends who, whether it's like my Prayer and Sangria group, whether we're meeting virtually or in person, where we're just sharing and like lamenting and being angry together about the state of the world and about not even like only the broad things, but like I'm asking them to pray about my cases or pray about like the immigration or human rights policies that I'm, you know, engaged in with work.

And for me, that's, that brings a level of cohesion, right. Where it's not like, you know, just my church on Sundays and, you know, not thinking about the Bible through the lens of everything that's going on, but bringing those things together. Is that, I don't know, that's the only way I can do this, to be honest. And the fact that God suffers with us, right. Like that the cross means that those who were suffering are never alone. And, I don't know, that, for me, that's like, that's the foundation. But I'll let you go ahead, Milly.

Milly Aquije: Yeah, I think I'm with you too, Gabrielle. I have to say my faith, you know, and just seeing that God is the God who sees us all and he loves us. He absolutely loves and adores each one of us, both the oppressed and the oppressor. And the reason I'm saying this too is I have seen that there's so much hope in just listening into those at times, of course, when we have the strength and capacity and yes, complete agency to do so too, in listening to those that have these rhetorics.

And the reason I say this is I heard many stories at times from our congregants that they weren't exposed to people other than white until like later in their lives, maybe like the last year of high school or so. And that, to me, is a big thing. And the reason is, being here, a New York City kid pretty much all my life, I've been exposed to multicultural every time, every single time I step out of my door, right.

So it's just things like this that I'm like, wow, there’s so much power in vulnerability, and also dismantling the, I would say, the ignorance, right, and stuff of what it looks like for an immigrant to have an immigrant life and experience, or for them just to know that it's not as cookie cutter way that they hear in the media, right. The system of immigration is so complicated. No immigration case is actually the same. I'm not sure if I'm always called to those spaces all the time, for sure, of like what it looks like to “Let me tell you my story,” right, to here, dismantle your biases, your discrimination.

But one thing has been, as well, my strength has been community in where I have like really amazing best friends who are from just different communities, whether Latina, African-American, Asian. High advocates, you know, for just my story and just who I am as well. And also we're all single, so we’re also always, you know, grabbing a fun, singleness stories for sure too, over a great margarita find.

So it's been great to have that spaces just to be myself and have a safe space I can just weep and lament. I've also have found amazing friends in the undocumented community who are DACA recipients. There's a few I turn to whenever, you know, things, we hear things going wrong, but it's always a breath of fresh air just checking in with them. We have our own like, documented jokes and things like that too, because we know each other's experiences, right. So I think it's awesome to be in a place where I don't have to translate myself. I can just be.

And when it comes to Christian spaces too, and just being honest, you know, in my experience in coming in, this is where I definitely understand God giving me, I would say, an Esther moment in who I am, in everything he's created me to be, from my roots from my father, from my roots from my mom, my, you know, being a first-generation Latina, being undocumented, and a clergy in church planting, where- I'll be honest in saying- it's more, it's completely highlighted with a lot of white superiority at times, and I've been able to speak in certain instances as well, you know. So there's where I praise God in being able to speak for our communities and the courage I receive from, as well, like my mentors, my senior pastor, Cory. Like, honestly, that man believes above and beyond for me, for sure, than I think I personally see in certain professional development, but he's just encouraged me to continue advocating. We really talk about everything, you know. In him as well, his experience of what it looks like to be Black in America too, has been so great in learning from him as well. So I think this is what gives me the courage.

Sy Hoekstra: This has been a really incredible conversation. I really appreciate you two coming on here. It was genuinely an honor to sit here and just listen to the two of you interact with each other.

Is there anything, before we go, that the two of you want to plug. Anywhere that people can follow you.

Gabrielle?

Gabrielle Apollon: I think there's some orgs that you guys should follow if you want to learn more about immigration, Black immigrants, and how immigration justice is racial justice and vice versa. I've mentioned UndocuBlack. I've mentioned BAJI- Black Alliance of Just Immigration. There's also Haitian Bridge Alliance, which I'm a huge fan of. Haitian Women for Haitian Refugees, which is also an amazing org.

But yeah, I usually Tweet about stuff related to Haiti and/or human rights, and/or randomness, and Sy and I sometimes get into Twitter spats if you're interested in that. [laughs] But my Twitter handle is @GApollon1, I think.

Sy Hoekstra: Yup. [laughs]

Gabrielle Apollon: That's it.

Sy Hoekstra: Milly, how bout you?

Milly Aquije: I love it. I think I'm going to do the same thing Gabrielle did, which is definitely mention a few like, immigration organizations that have been very helpful for me. And just also, just being part of their space has been very healing, which is New York State Youth Leadership Council. So the NYSYL actually is undocu led and stuff. And it's really awesome to have been part of their spaces. They also gave us spaces to heal and lament as we were all waiting for the decision of the Supreme Court last year for DACA. And the other one too, that's been, other two, I would say, that have been really awesome is the New York Immigration Coalition and New Sanctuary Coalition as well.

But in regards to myself, so my platform where I give hope for like, definitely for advocacy, for justice, for immigrants, and just saying certain times, just hope. Cause I feel like we need so much hope in this world in everything we've gone through. I feel like all of us also are healing from being traumatized for four years with so much rhetoric and hurts.

Gabrielle Apollon: Real talk.

Milly Aquije: And, just being honest, it really feels that way. And that's why, for me, that's a whole other tangent I won’t get into, but hearing certain times, certain people, from certain communities say, “So where are Latinos in this?” And I'm like, “We're still trying to recover from being traumatized after four years.” Because I was asked that question, and trust me, I'm still healing from it.

So, I would have to say the other platform for sure to look into for me is Hoping Greatly. So I have that as a platform in Instagram, in Twitter- I'm not so active in Twitter, and Facebook. But I'm always active in Instagram. So Hoping Greatly.

Sy Hoekstra: Milly, Gabrielle, thank you so much for being here today!

Gabrielle Apollon: Thanks for having us.

Milly Aquije: Yes. Thank you so much for having me! And Gabrielle- so amazing to hear from you too!

Gabrielle Apollon: Really great to talk to you.

[“Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in briefly, then fades out.] 

Suzie Lahoud: Thanks so much for listening. As a reminder, you can subscribe to our blog at ktfpress.com. Follow us on social media on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter @KTFPress; and subscribe to the podcast on whatever player you prefer.

Also, we’d love to hear from you. You can write to us at [email protected] with questions, written or recorded as a voice memo, and maybe we'll play your voice memo on a future episode.

Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra and our podcast art is by Jacqueline Tam, and we will see you next week!

[“Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades back in. Lyrics: “Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” Song fades out.]  

Sy Hoekstra: So, we've heard about Gabrielle's Prayer and Sangria group, she mentioned that briefly, and then Milly briefly mentioned her sort of Singleness, Lamentation, and Margaritas. [all laugh]

Gabrielle Apollon: That's a good name.

Milly Aquije: I love that!

Sy Hoekstra: I think if we just like, combine these two groups, I feel like that would be like, really powerful in some way.

Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac is on Shake the Dust today to talk about the recent violence in Palestine, the increasing attention to the voices of Palestinians, Christian Zionism, the Christ at the Checkpoint conference that he directs, and a whole lot more. 

Resources to learn more about Palestinian theology mentioned during the show: 

An Open Letter to U.S. Christians from a Palestinian Pastor by Munther Isaac 

The Other Side of the Wall: A Palestinian Christian Narrative of Lament and Hope by Munther Isaac 

From Land to Lands, from Eden to the Renewed Earth: A Christ-Centered Biblical Theology of the Promised Land by Munther Isaac 

The Land of Christ: A Palestinian Cry by Yohanna Katanacho 

Through My Enemy’s Eyes: Envisioning Reconciliation in Israel-Palestine by Salim Munayer and Lisa Loden 

I am a Palestinian Christian: God and Politics in the Holy Land: A Personal Testimony by Mitri Raheb 

Faith in the Face of Empire: The Bible through Palestinian Eyes by Mitri Raheb 

Justice and Only Justice: A Palestinian Theology of Liberation by Naim Ateek 

Blood Brothers: The Dramatic Story of a Palestinian Christian Working for Peace in Israel by Elias Chacour and David Hazard 

Palestinian Memories: The Story of a Palestinian Mother and Her People by Alex Awad 

Shake the Dust is a podcast of KTF Press. Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Find transcripts of this show and subscribe to our blog at KTFPress.com. 

Hosts: 

Jonathan Walton – follow him on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter.  

Suzie Lahoud – follow her on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter.  

Sy Hoekstra – follow him on Twitter.  

Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra – listen to the whole song on Spotify. 

Our podcast art is by Jacqueline Tam – follow her and see her other work on Instagram.  

Shake the Dust is produced and edited by Sy Hoekstra, and transcribed by Suzie Lahoud with help from Descript. 

Questions about anything you heard on the show? Write to [email protected] and we may answer your question on a future episode. 

Transcript

Munther Isaac: I live in Bethlehem and we watch the many numbers of pilgrims who visit the Nativity Church where Jesus was born on a daily basis. Thousands. But to visit the Nativity Church, you have to cross the checkpoint, drive by the ugly separation wall that separates Bethlehem from Jerusalem and takes most of the agricultural land in Bethlehem, and you drive by a refugee camp. And I've always wondered, do these pilgrims who come and visit us, do they care about what's happening?

[The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/That it will roll in abundance/ And that you’re building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.]   

Jonathan Walton: Welcome to Shake the Dust, leaving colonized faith for the Kingdom of God, a podcast of KTF Press. My name is Jonathan Walton, and I'm here with Suzie Lahoud and Sy Hoekstra.

Suzie, tell us about our guest.

Suzie Lahoud: So today we're sitting down with Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac. Reverend Munther is the pastor of the Evangelical Lutheran Christmas Church in Bethlehem. He's also the academic dean of Bethlehem Bible College and the director of the Christ at the Checkpoint conference. He has published numerous articles on issues related to the theology of the land, Palestinian Christians and theology, holistic missions, and reconciliation. He is the author of the books The Other Side of the Wall and From Land to Lands, from Eden to the Renewed Earth.

He has also written a couple books in Arabic, like An Introduction to Palestinian Theology, as well as a commentary on the book of Daniel. Reverend Munther originally studied civil engineering at Birzeit University in Palestine. He then obtained a Master's in Biblical Studies from Westminster Theological Seminary and a PhD from the Oxford Centre for Mission Studies.

We talk to him about the recent violence in Palestine, the growing support for Palestinian human rights, Christian Zionism, the Christ at the Checkpoint conference, anti-Semitism, and a whole lot more.

Sy Hoekstra: Just a quick reminder, if you like this show and you want to support us, the best way to do that is to go to KTFPress.com and to subscribe to our blog. That gets you our weekly newsletter, bonus episodes of this show, and some other writing from the three of us. And it also goes towards future book projects and other things that we're planning. And we're doing all that because we really do want to give you something that's really substantive for your subscription. So please head over to KTFPress.com and check that out if you're at all interested.

And if you're not in a place to subscribe right now, then that's totally fine. We would just ask that you hit the subscribe or follow button on your podcast player, whatever your podcast player says; follow us @KTFPress on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter; sign up for our free mailing list at KTFPress.com; and also tell your friends about us because that's a really great way to spread the word and help support the show. Thank you so much for anything you're able to do. We really, really appreciate it.

Also, we wanted to highlight for you all that we do have an email address, [email protected], that you can write into if you have any questions that have come up over the course of you listening to this show. We're going to do some episodes in the future where the three of us are sort of processing through what we've heard from some of our guests, and also talking about just some of our own topics. And we want to hear from you. We want to hear what you want to hear about and we want to hear your questions. So feel free to write in. Again, the email address is [email protected]. You can send in your questions or your comments via email.

You can also send them in via a voice recording if you want, and we may play some of them on the show. We think that'd be really cool if people wanted to do that. You can just record a voicemail on your phone and email it to us. So thank you, in advance, for all of your wonderful, lovely questions that we know you all have.

Jonathan Walton: And now that that's out of the way, let's get right to it with Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac.

[“Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in briefly, then fades out.] 

Suzie Lahoud: Pastor Munther, thank you so much for joining us on Shake the Dust today. It's an honor to have you.

Munther Isaac: Thank you. It's my pleasure to join you.

Suzie Lahoud: And just to start off our conversation, there are a lot of things that we want to dig into today and just take advantage of this opportunity to benefit from your vast expertise and experience. But before we launch into all of that, we want to acknowledge the recent trauma and violence that you and our brothers and sisters in Palestine have experienced recently. And so, could you just give our listeners a sense of what the feeling is currently among Christians and others on the ground in Palestine regarding the recent spate of violence? Is it sort of a similar sense to other previous escalations? Just what are people feeling right now? How are they grappling with what's happened?

Munther Isaac: If I can summarize it in one word or two, it’s that “here we go again,” unfortunately. And just to be clear, our emotions are, Christians are not different to the emotions or how the rest of Palestinians feels, because we are Palestinians at the end of the day and we all go through this together. And so when more cycles of violence, especially in Gaza, happen again, that's, you know, you just think, “Lord have mercy” and “How long? How much more can people endure so much suffering and how much more can this land endure injustice?” I mean, the attack on Gaza has ended, but the siege hasn't ended. And certainly the threat of forcibly evacuating people from their homes in Jerusalem, whether in Sheikh Jarrakh or in Silwan, is still there. Hundreds of people sleep tonight with the fear that this could be their last night in their homes.

And that still goes on and you wonder, “How much more, Lord? Can we endure this much? Where are you, Lord, in all of this?” And honestly, you know, the more you read about what's happening and you feel the pain of families who lost their loved ones, for example, in Gaza, and children, the sentiment is the world does not care, it seems, to stop this. And we are easy to shift the blame against the victim, and to rationalize what's happening. And at the end of the day, as I said, the siege is still there and it makes us wonder, do people care? And this much of anger and frustration, and if I now, just to speak briefly as a Christian, here the Christian community, my fear is that more and more people will leave thinking that there is no future in this land, that this cycle of violence will never end. And that we are doomed as Palestinians to live under occupation. So we continue to see people leaving and, you know, as if all of this is not enough, we're still dealing with COVID, we're still dealing with high unemployment. These are not good days, if I may put it this way, for Palestinians.

Suzie Lahoud: Do you feel that the sense of despair is increasing or is there any sort of sense of a glimmer of hope with regards to international solidarity with the Palestinian people? And specifically I'm thinking of instances, you know, in light of the recent atrocities, The New York Times cover page with, you know, 65 Palestinian children who were killed in Gaza and things like that. Do those offer any sense of greater support? Do you see any shifts in even the evangelical church in the United States or is it still very much a sense of isolation and erasure and just being forgotten by the world?

Munther Isaac: There is certainly a change. But before that, I think the real change is happening, I think, among Palestinians who, we are beginning to recognize that our destiny, if I may say, relies more upon us and what we can do rather than on our political leadership or on the leaders of the world. The latest events has shown Palestinians coming together, unified more than ever, including Palestinians who are citizens in the State of Israel, which was a very interesting and surprising development. And Palestinians using the social media to communicate their stories that we are not simply fighting Jews because we hate Jews and want to destroy Israel, but we’re simply seeking our rights to live in our homes, we’re seeking our God-given right for freedom and dignity. And Palestinians in Jerusalem, in particular, were able to stand up in the face of so many attempts to, not just force them out of their homes, but to subdue them.

And all of this, I think, is resonating with many oppressed people around the world. And young people, especially, are increasingly beginning to understand the plight of Palestinian, of the Palestinian people. And certainly, you are right, Suzie, in the sense that I've never seen so much support of Palestinian rights in the streets around the world. We've seen huge demonstrations. I'm so much encouraged by the increasing Jewish voices around the world, particularly in the United States, who are saying, “Not in our name.” And even, you know, there are some articles about a small shift among evangelicals. I'm not holding my hopes high, to be honest, but yes, we're beginning to see at least a discussion happening among evangelicals that, yes, it's been too long for Palestinians and it's time to listen to the plight.

I'm not sure if you've followed, but many Palestinian Christian leaders have spoken up very loudly about this. We've written articles. We've done interviews. We've been saying this for a while and we've been trying to speak on behalf of Palestinians, especially among Christians around the world, feeling that we have a voice among churches. And as I said, it's time, it's time that we recognize the plights of Palestinians.

And again, this is not one voice over the other. We're not saying support Palestinians against Israelis. We're simply saying, recognize our rights as Palestinians to live in dignity in our homeland. To live in our homes- literally our homes- and to have the right for self-determination and live in dignity in our land.

Suzie Lahoud: Absolutely. And with regards to what's been coming out, your piece in Sojourners, your open letter, was, in particular, I think, so powerful. We'll definitely include that in the show notes, but yeah, thank you. Thank you for sharing that.

Sy Hoekstra: And we hope we can be whatever small part of shifting the conversation among evangelicals that we can. But, so we, we appreciate you being here with us for that reason.

Munther Isaac: No, thank you. Many times, all we ask people is to amplify our voices. We want to be heard and we want, especially Christians, to take our perspective and even our existence. I feel oftentimes, churches, especially evangelicals, but not just evangelicals, pray for the peace of Jerusalem, as I said in the article, write prophecy books, preach about this land, and you get the impression that it's empty. And I always think, we exist, we live on this land, as Palestinians, but also as Palestinian Christians. We are your sisters and brothers in Christ. The least you could do is take our perspective and consider it. You might disagree with us. That's fine. But at least consider our existence.

And that's something we've been lamenting for a while. Many Christians speak about our land, even today, as if it's empty. And see only one side of the story. And celebrate, for example, what they perceive, you know, or how they speak about the faithfulness of God towards the Jewish people, bringing them back to their land. Even that language, “bringing them back to their land” gives the impression that I now, as a Palestinian who have been living here for a long time, have taken someone else's land. Because apparently Palestinians didn’t get the memo that God promised this land, 4,000 years ago, to the ancestors of Abraham who are the Jews today. I mean, if you think of that perspective today, it's unthinkable, but that's the reality we're facing.

Sy Hoekstra: Can you, you've written a lot about Christian Zionism in your scholarship and elsewhere. Can you just define that? Because I think, especially in the West, a lot of times it's just sort of the air that we breathe. And so I think naming it and defining what it is could be helpful for a lot of people.

Munther Isaac: Christian Zionism, I mean, it's better not to try to give a scientific or academic definition because most people, as you said, who we might characterize as Christian Zionists don't even recognize it. They think that, to them, this is the only way of being a Christian- to them to be a Christian is to support Israel. They read the Bible, they read about Israel, God's people, and they assume that we should support Israel today. So simply speaking, it's the belief that the Bible commands us to support Israel, the modern State of Israel. And in the minds of most people, they don't differentiate between the secular State of Israel and, of today, and the Israel of the Bible.

They, you know, many Christians, I always say, have this romantic view of the land, as if it's like the biblical land, the ancient, you know, you think as if nothing happened between biblical times and today, and that the Israel of today is the exact people and extension of the Israelites in the Bible. And then when you have preachers who feed this with statements like, “If you bless Israel, God will bless you. And if you stand against Israel, God will curse you,” which is a very common belief among many Christians, or statement that the modern State of Israel is the fulfillment of prophecy.

And again, these statements go unchallenged in churches and they are the default positions of many Christians who don't even question these beliefs. And so at the end, Christian Zionism becomes more than just believing this about Israel because it's supporting Israel politically and financially because you feel God will bless you when you do it and that this is the right thing to do. And one way to rationalize all of this is to connect it to a global battle between good and evil, with the forces of good being the Judeo-Christian tradition, which is honestly a code for cultural superiority, especially when opposed to Islam, the Arabs. And that's how many Christians view the axis of evil today.

To me, this is a very unhealthy way of thinking. To me, this is a very un-Christian way of thinking where, you know, Jesus commanded us to love all people equally and to love even our enemies and to seek to always build bridges. This polarization is so unhelpful. And in many ways, so dehumanizing towards Palestinians. We’re always just the wrong, on the wrong side. We’re always to be blamed. We are the ones who started all of this, and so on. And so if you analyze carefully the whole issue of Christian Zionism, it's more than just “the Bible tells us to support Israel,” but it's more that there are the bad guys that we should be careful of, and this is all a matter of good versus evil.

And that explains why many evangelicals are so passionately supporting Israel, giving billions of dollars over the last few years. I'm saying billions, not millions. And lobbying on behalf of Israel. And it's no surprise that when the previous American President, Trump, made the move of the American embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, he was clear that he made this, or he did this, for the evangelicals, to please them because they were such a political force in the United States during his administration.

Sy Hoekstra: Can you explain- I mean, you've already touched on this a little bit- but kind of why you reject the thinking that the modern State of Israel and the biblical Israel are the same and sort of what your approach is, your alternative approach, to thinking about human rights issues in Palestine from a biblical perspective?

Munther Isaac: There are different reasons why I cannot support Christian Zionism, not just as a Palestinian, but as a Bible-believing Christian. And before I try to explain this, I just want us to understand what we’re talking about. We ask Christians if those, at least, who believe in this, are advocating that we solve a very complicated conflict- which is translated into, today, an occupation and even an oppression of one people by another- we are advocating to solve this by going back to the Bible and trying to answer the question, to whom did God promise the land? And who are the ancestors of Abraham? And thinking that the right way of solving this is to determine who the right ancestors of Abraham are and they have a divine right to the land. And I’m thinking, honestly, is this the most creative we can be as Christians and as peacemakers?

And just try to get outside of this and look from the outside in. And to help you understand: imagine if a people from Mexico today show up in Texas and say, “Well, we have this, for example, tribal religion, and 4,000 years ago, we have a text, and our God promised us Texas. So you Texans get out. This is our land.” But this is precisely what people are asking Palestinians to accept- that the land belongs to the Jews because the Bible said 4,000 years ago that it belongs to Abraham and his offspring and the Jews are his offspring. And this is how we are to solve a political conflict today.

Put aside human rights. Put aside international law. Put aside historical facts that people have been living in this land for hundreds of years and thousands of years. Put aside, you know, so many other things about descendency and who came from who, and just accept this naive, sorry to say, assumption that the Jews of today are the direct descendants of Abraham, and because of that, this is their land. And again, I think, as a Christian who lives here, is this the best Christians can offer us to solve this conflict, honestly? And so, as I said, before I begin answering the question, I want us to understand what we're talking about.

And second, now let's talk about, you know, what Christian Zionism is saying, because one of the things I always tell Christian Zionists, “Let us assume that you’re right- that the Bible says this. That, you know, what you're saying the Bible says actually applies. And this is the, God promised this land as an eternal possession and Jews have a divine right to the land, and every Jew, wherever he's born, he has a divine right to come to this land and call it home. So what should I do as a Palestinian? That's my question. Should I, you know, leave? Should I accept to live as a second-class citizen in my homeland? What's your proposition? Because, you know, you are not talking about an empty land.” And you would notice, most people don't know what to say or simply to say, “Well, international law.” But that doesn't work, you know, because you're just giving a certain group of people a divine right to the land.

If Muslims, by the way, use the same language, we would not allow that. But now we're using the same language. And more importantly, we want to say, what about justice? Does it matter? What about human rights? Are you fine with Palestinians being expelled from their homes? I mean, when Israel was created, between 7-800,000 Palestinians became refugees. Now let that sink in. We're talking about 7-800,000 Palestinians became refugees. Is that fair?

And don't say, “Well, war, and this is the nature of war.” Because we, Christians, should be merciful and passionate and we should care. And second, these were not people who, you know, flee because of war. They were expelled from their homes. History says that. Is this fair? So we cannot, as Christians, simply read our Bibles, apply one verse to the modern State of Israel, and say they have the right without dealing with the consequences.

One of the questions we always say, “What is the gospel to Palestinians?” How do you then communicate to Palestinians that God so loved the world? Does that include us or, because we have the wrong postal address, that's our fault? And, you know, over the years I've spent much deal of time studying this question: does the Bible actually say that? And believe me, it's not that simple. And we've written a lot as Palestinian theologians and others, from the Bible, trying to answer this question. For example, one of the things that I always ask, “What about the New Testament's claims about the descendants of Abraham- that in Christ there are neither no Jew nor Greek, that actually Abraham has one offspring who is Christ, and that in Christ, we are heirs according to the promise? What about the many promises of an expansion of universal promises of the whole land and so on? Were the promises conditional or unconditional?” In other words, I'm not just speaking as a Palestinian here. I think many biblical scholars have easily shown that it's not that simple, you know.

And, as I said, we can delve so much deeper into these questions about the descendants of Abraham, who they are, what is the land that they inherit? Do we actually possess anything as humans, you know? In the Bible, God emphasized that, “The land is mine.” It does not become a possession. That's in Leviticus 25. You cannot sell it as if it's your property. The land in the Bible, and I'm talking only from the Hebrew scripture- I mean, I'm not even going to the New Testament- demands justice. If there is no justice in the land, you know, Deuteronomy 16:20 is one verse that comes to mind: “Justice, and only justice, you shall follow, that you may live and inherit the land that the Lord your God is giving you.” So in other words, without justice, no one can claim any right to any land. Leviticus says, if you do certain abominations, the land will vomit you out.

Because this is the way I write about it always- this is a land that demands holiness. This is a land that demands justice. This is a land that demands that you are faithful to the covenantal obligations, and on top of these covenantal obligations is to care for the poor, for the widow, for the orphan, for the oppressed. I mean, there are so many wonderful things in the Bible about the ethics of the land and then how we translate them, I think, as Christians, as the Kingdom ethics.

And one of the things I wish Christians, and especially evangelicals, invest in is rather than trying to predict the end times and looking at our land in the lens of prophecy, that they look at it through the lens of peacemaking, through the lens of Kingdom ethics, the Sermon on the Mountain. Imagine if we have invested in this rather than, I mean, I always say the book, the Left Behind series. I think- it sold more than 60 million copies or more- I think that's, I mean, I wish 60 million copies are sold from a book on peacemaking or on justice or on mission, but we're fast obsessed the evangelical community with prophecy.

And if this energy was invested in peacemaking, you know, I actually believe we could have made a difference. I actually believe the church, the global church, could have made a difference. And that's why we continue to lament here. If you talk to many Christian activists and theologians and leaders, we would say that the global church has been part of the problem rather than trying to be part of the solution.

Sy Hoekstra: If you could recommend to listeners a couple of Palestinian theologians, if they wanted to go deeper on this subject, who would you recommend?

Munther Isaac: Well, I would certainly recommend, my dear friend, Yohanna Katanacho. He’s from Jerusalem now, originally from Nazareth, and he's written so many good books. The Land of Christ is one that immediately comes to mind. Again, the name is Yohanna Katanacho.

I have, as I said, written several books on these topics. I would also recommend a very good book by my good friend, Salim Munayer, who, he has written with a messianic Jewish believer- her name is Lisa Loden, Through My Enemy’s Eyes. Who start to bring the two perspective in dialogue and propose a vision for peacemaking. And, of course, a very, you know, important voice, I would say, and challenging voice, to many Christians today that has, you know, made so many Christians rethink the whole way they read the Bible is Mitri Raheb, who has written several books. I am a Palestinian Christian is an old one, but it's still a good one. And more recently, Faith in the Face of Empire.

You're asking me to speak about my favorite topic, which is, you know, Christian theology in the Palestinian context. So I can give so many other suggestions. Maybe just one more or two more- Justice and Only Justice is a wonderful book by Naim Ateek. And probably one of the most influential books by Palestinian Christians is the story of Father Chacour, Blood Brothers. It's a must-read for most Christians,

Sy Hoekstra: I'm going to put, I have just decided I'm going to put links to all of those in the show notes for this episode. So listeners, if you want a convenient way to order those books, they will be in your podcast player.

Munther Isaac: Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate it.

Sy Hoekstra: No, no. It's, you just gave us like a whole syllabus, so we’ll pass it along.

Suzie Lahoud: Yeah, what a great opportunity to decolonize your library.

Sy Hoekstra: Right. Totally.

Jonathan Walton: Yes, I have so many thoughts, but mostly just deep, deep appreciation. As we, you know, pull back, you know, or I guess, go deeper, into like, how the present day connects with just so much theology and history that you were sharing, what I'm wondering is, how does that all connect to why you started Christ at the Checkpoint, and the conference, and what its goals are? Because I think there's just a lot of richness there that you've turned into something very practical and ongoing. And so could you unpack Christ at the Checkpoint, the conference, and what its goals are?

Munther Isaac: Yeah, sure. So, Christ at the Checkpoint, for those who don't know, is a conference and a movement, I would say, more than just a conference, that we do every two years. We as the Bethlehem Bible college. The Bethlehem Bible College is where I am now the academic dean, and I lead this conference.

This started, I mean, the first conference took place in 2010, but this started before. We, as a Bible College in Bethlehem, started by Palestinians, by the way, and led by Palestinians, but, Palestinians with, we had, the way we describe it, an evangelical DNA. We're an interdenominational Bible college, but we're not, you know, affiliated with one particular church or denomination. And over the years, because of this, we would attract many visitors from around the world, many evangelical visitors who are, you know, very warm, good intentions. They want to support us. They want to help us teach the Bible to our students, but at the same time, they want to educate us that this land belongs to Israel.

And oftentimes we engage in discussions about the Bible and that leads to discussions about the modern-day reality. And we've discovered that so many Christian leaders have strong opinions about this land, but very, very limited knowledge about the reality on the ground. And they have not just, not even, you know, been to the Palestinian side and tried to see things the way we see them and live in our shoes. But also, they have never thought or pondered the concept of a different way of reading scripture. And so this led, over the years, to many, first private conversations, then discussions, then the Bible College developed the idea of hosting church groups and seminary students to lectures. And ultimately, we decided to hold the conference.

I remember very well, I thought, “Let's have a conference on the theology of the land.” And the idea came from Alex Awad, who's a Baptist pastor. And that's another name you want to search for. He has a book called, Palestinian Memories. So, one more book to add to the library: Alex Awad’s book. And I remember Reverend Alex said, “Let's have a discussion about the theology of the land. Let's invite our evangelical friends, and discuss the Bible, but not discuss it in a vacuum. Discuss it in light of the context.” And hence the idea “Christ at the Checkpoint.” We wanted to ask, what would Christ say or do if he is to stand in front of a checkpoint today? What would he say to the Palestinians crossing the checkpoint or to the Israeli soldier stopping him at the checkpoint?

So the idea was, let's study the Bible at the checkpoint. And more importantly, let's invite all groups to this. So we invited Christian Zionists. We didn't just talk among ourselves. We wanted to have a conversation and say, “Listen, your theology is having an actual impact on our lives. So try to understand the reality.” And as I said, what about the way Jesus reads these promises? What about justice? What about is, you know… So we wanted also to challenge the theology of Christian Zionism.

The conference grew and we've had one every two years, with the exception of last year, obviously, because of COVID-19. And at some conferences we've had, I would say, between 5-600 participants. So it became a major international conference that I think made many Christians, and especially evangelicals, you know, begin to question their beliefs and listen more seriously to Palestinian Christians. But also made so many others, and maybe more evangelical Christians, honestly, more hostile and attacking us in writing and in lobbying and encouraging people not to come to Bethlehem or not to visit the Bible College and certainly not to attend Bethlehem Bible College.

You would be shocked by the amount of attacks we've received from Christians and the sense of hostility in these attacks calling us all sorts of things. From all of this, you know, came my idea of, you know, in my book, The Other Side of the Wall, in that people try to encourage, you know, discourage people from crossing the wall to engaging with those on the other side. And by the other side, I don't just mean physically, but I mean, in that we, as Palestinians, have always been marginalized, whether in theology books, in the way pilgrimage is done, in the way, you know, we think of people as, as classes. And, you know, it's as if we write on one side of the wall, “terrorists,” “replacement theologians,” “anti-Semites,” theological, you know, “socialists,” we've been called, political or theological terrorism, and so many things we've been called so that people don't talk to us.

But despite that, we continue to have these conversations. We continue to challenge beliefs that discriminate against people. We continue to challenge beliefs that really give the impression that people are classes. Or that God cares about certain people more than others because of their nationality or ethnicity. And we're grateful for the many leaders, and especially younger leaders, who join us in these conferences who are beginning to understand our perspective and promote it in, especially in the sense that, as I said, and I will continue to repeat: our message is not destroy Israel or it's not against the Jews. Our messages is simply against the modern Zionist movement in its exclusive, and even, let's call it racist, policies against non-Jews. And our end goal is to live side by side with Israelis. But we believe that the occupation is the problem. And we believe that certain laws in the State of Israel are racist and are creating a reality of discrimination. They are to be challenged. And I think it's because of that, that many people are drawn to our message because it's not simply a message of victimization, but a message of hope about a reality in which we share the land.

Jonathan Walton: If you were to describe any changes or an arc or more opposition, less opposition, more comradery, what, are there any patterns that have emerged in the last decade that you've been engaged with the conference and speakers from around the world?

Munther Isaac: We certainly sense some change among many Christian leaders, evangelical leaders, more so among the younger generation, among seminary students and many pastors. I wouldn't claim that we changed all evangelicals. We are a small college in Bethlehem who are blessed to have this opportunity to engage with hundreds of evangelical leaders and students every two years. And I think that I believe in, in how Jesus put it in that the Kingdom of God is like a mustard seed. And sometimes we say that we should be encouraged by small changes here and there, but I think it's more than we should be encouraged. It's that this is how things happen. You know, like a small mustard seed that grows and that multiplies gradually. So my hope is that we are creating a movement.

And we've always knew that it's not going to be easy. We've always knew that it takes time. Actually, we've lost supporters as a Bible college. We've lost so much financial support from previous partners who all of a sudden think we are political and we shouldn't say these things. Of course, they can be political, but we cannot. And I think, and here is the irony to me, is that the biggest change, the way at least I see it, happened among us as Palestinians because we realized that we are more than capable of challenging the global church with a grassroot theology.

You know, I used to think of Palestinian theology as this, you know, small contextual attempts to read the Bible, but more so I'm beginning to think, “No, we, you know, every theology is dealing, trying to understand its context. Every theology is as legitimate.” And I think we felt a sense of empowerment as a Palestinian church, again, despite our small numbers, despite our very, very limited resources.

But I feel that we are beginning to embrace our calling. And we are beginning to embrace that, the idea that we have a message and that message is not only to our people. And believe me, we are doing the best we can with what we have and with God's grace and spirit to be a good witnesses to the gospel in our land.

But we also feel we have a message to the world. And to the global church. And we have accepted, if I may say it, this calling to try to help and challenge perspectives around the world. There are so many things that we are now challenging. It's not simply about Palestine and Israel to me. It's about our compassion to justice as Christians. It’s the fact that so many Christians have become apathetic, if I may use this word. We don't care about the suffering.

And my situation in Palestine opened my eyes to this reality. You know, I live in Bethlehem and we watch the many numbers of pilgrims who visit the Nativity Church where Jesus was born on a daily basis. Thousands. And, of course, if it wasn't for the Church of the Nativity, most of these pilgrims wouldn't even think of coming to a Palestinian town or city. But to visit the Nativity Church you have to cross the checkpoint, drive by the ugly separation wall that separates Bethlehem from Jerusalem and takes most of the agricultural land in Bethlehem, confiscates it. And you drive by a refugee camp.

And I've always wondered, do these pilgrims who come and visit us, do they care about what's happening? And it's just a reminder that we, Christians, can be sometimes too religious, but not care and not have concern for the oppressed and for justice. And, as I said, you know, Jesus said blessed are the merciful, but we just want to do a religious duty.

And my point is that we feel today that we have a message to the world that we should be concerned. We should lament. I write a lot about lamenting and a church that has lost the capacity or the, God's gift to us of lamentation. And I say gift because it's a gift that moves us to action and to do our best to change things and so far.

So yes, on the one hand we manage to challenge perspectives and to bring the Palestinian voice to many new circles. And also, I feel we have been empowered by the Spirit to challenge the church and to feel that we have a message to give.

Jonathan Walton: Thank you. Thank you for expounding on that. I really appreciate it.

Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.

Suzie Lahoud: And I know I can certainly share firsthand experiences from friends that I've spoken to who attended the Christ at the Checkpoint conference and found it to be deeply, deeply transformative. So again, thank you for the important work that you're doing and for the, on top of everything else that you have to experience and go through, that you're making this additional sacrifice to be faithful to that calling. Yeah. Thank you.

And one thing I wanted to touch on that you sort of hit on briefly that I think is so important is, as we seek to grapple with this as Christians, having a sense of history and that many of these ideas are so recent. You mentioned the theology of the rapture and that's a fairly new theology, even though it's very much in vogue right now in American white evangelicalism.

And I remember, to Sy’s point about how Christian Zionism has become, unfortunately, just sort of the air that we breathe in a lot of white evangelical churches in the United States, that the first time that my eyes were sort of opened to the fact that I had been brought up in that atmosphere was in a course that I took in college taught by a phenomenal Jewish anthropologist who opened my eyes to the other side of the story that I had completely missed. And so again, I just encourage our listeners to dig into these rich resources that Pastor Munther has shared; to dig into the history; to dig into the theology; to ask good, hard questions.

And one final question that we want to ask you, Pastor Munther- and this is a challenging one for a lot of folks, but I think that's why it's important to address it directly- is, again, looking at recent history over the past decade or so, we've seen this rise of far-right nationalism in Europe and in the United States. And that has corresponded to a rise in horrific forms of racism and xenophobia and Islamophobia and also, anti-Semitism.

And so, historically it's been the case, and remains today, that a lot of people who would otherwise sympathize with the plight of the Palestinian people are nervous or afraid to criticize the State of Israel for fear of falling into anti-Semitism, or even just being labeled as anti-Semitic. So could you, could you respond to that fear? Because I feel like this is something you try to address through your work.

Munther Isaac: Yes. I think this is a very important question and issue. And let me just begin by saying, it's actually good to have this fear or sentiment and, because it's a legitimate concern. Anti-Semitism is real. And I think you are right when you say that it's on the rise.

This compels us as Christians to- who want to be faithful to Jesus, his commandments to love our neighbors as ourselves, and not to fall into the sin of racism- this compels us to always examine not just our language, but our motivations. With that said, I think it's also important that we differentiate between criticism of Israel, legitimate criticism of Israel, and anti-Semitism. Not only does, Israel is not a representation of all Jews, but we’re here talking about a secular state that wants to abide within the international law. And if they don't, then we have every right to call them out. And we have every right to even resist their policy if they are not legal.

And I think there is a big difference between, you know, criticizing Israel and anti-Zionism. Even, you know, opposing Zionism to me is not anti-Semitism because Zionism not only does not represent all Jews, but Zionism is a political movement. And we should be clear, we should be clear about that.

My biggest concern today is that many people use anti-Semitism to silence any criticism or anybody who's sympathetic with the Palestinians. And we should not allow that. And actually, there are today many Jewish voices that are speaking out against this notion that anti-Zionism or criticizing Israel is anti-Semitism, and saying that this actually undermines the horrors of anti-Semitism. More recently, the Jerusalem Declaration on Anti-Semitism, just a few months ago, actually emphasizes that not only criticism against Israel, but even nonviolent resistance and boycotting goods and calling for sanctions on Israel, even though the authors of this declaration might not agree with this, but to them, that's not anti-Semitism. And I think it's important, and brave, for these many, many Jewish leaders and organizations to say this, to say this openly.

And I mean, this topic, I want to add at least two or three things. First, you know, as I said earlier in the podcast, some of the strongest voices supporting Palestinian rights today are actually Jewish voices. And my second point on this question on anti-Semitism, my other point, is that, have people actually analyzed and studied carefully what Christian Zionists are saying about Jews? Because many, many expression of Christian Zionism is actually, can be described as anti-Semitic. You know, among the many, you know, some of the prominent Christian Zionist leaders or theologians or books, to them, the end times scenario is that two-thirds of the Jews will be massacred. And then the other third will convert to Christianity. And I think, how is that a Jewish-friendly theology?

You know, can you imagine if I, as a Palestinian pastor, stand in a conference and say, “I predict that one day two-thirds of the Jews will be massacred, and the other third will convert to Christianity.” I will be crucified and labeled anti-Semitic for saying such a thing. But this is the exact thing that many Christian Zionists are saying today. And I can't help but think, how's this, you know, how are these friends to Israel or to Jews? And certainly to many Christians, Jews are merely an object in their eschatology or end time theology.

Again, this is not helpful. To me, the right way, the Christian way to deal with all people groups is love your neighbor as yourself. And I think if we fail to see this as Christians and apply it, and just relate to our Jewish neighbors in how we perceive their future is in our eschatology, I think we're committing, to be honest, I think we’re committing a sin towards these, to our Jewish neighbors. You know, with, as you said, with the rise of anti-Semitism, many Christians are speaking out and I just want to show and give two examples of why I don't think, why I think that there still is a problem within many evangelical voices, even those who want to support Jews, but yet, in my opinion, have a misguided approach.

In my book, I deal with two examples in the wake of an attack on a synagogue in Pittsburgh that happened a few years ago. And 11 Jews were killed, murdered while praying in a synagogue. There was two articles that caught my attention. The titles of these two articles were almost identical. One said, “If you hate Jews, you hate Jesus,” with the rationale that Jesus was Jewish. He was risen from the dead and ascended as a Jew. And so, if you hate Jews today, you hate one of the Jews, who's Jesus. The other article was, “If you love Jesus, you would love Jews because, based on Romans 11, all Israel shall be saved. This means that at one day, Jews will come to Jesus because he loves them. So if you love Jesus, you should love all Jews.” And I support the conclusions, but I don't like how we got there.

And this explains how many evangelicals view the Jewish people. With the first article- “If you hate Jews, you hate Jesus”- I say, what if, for the sake of argument and for the sake of argument only, Jesus was not Jewish? Would it then be okay for us to hate the Jewish people? You see the, why do we have to use this logic that, because Jesus was Jewish, we have to love the Jewish people? And the second article, you know, what if Romans 11 actually does not predict that Jews will come to faith in Christ? What if actually, you know, this is a wrong interpretation and we discover that we were wrong and that no, Jews will not come to faith in Christ. Then we don't have to love them? Is that the logic? And the idea that if you love Jesus, you love Jews as well- shouldn't that apply to all people? If you love Jesus, you love Hindus and Muslims and native people and all people groups, right? Or if you hate all people groups, any people group, you hate Jesus as well.

And I hope, I hope you get my idea here is that in many circles who seem, or give the impression that they are promoting a theology that is favorable to the Jews, I fear we're actually still looking at Jews as this special category and we have to justify why we have to support them or love them.

And just maybe one final comment on this question. I know I give too many points on this, but I think it's important. To me, supporting Palestinians and supporting Palestinians get their right and live in peace, side-by-side by the Israelis, is actually in the best interest of Israelis as well. And so we don't, as I said, we don't want people to support Palestinians and, you know, stand against Israel and call for the destruction of Israel. And I hope people, as I said, see it, that it is for the best interest of all people of this land, that there is peace in this land. South African Bishop Desmond Tutu, won a Nobel prize for his fight against apartheid, you know, says that the sustainability of Israel as a homeland for the Jewish people has always been dependent on its ability to deliver justice to the Palestinians. And I think this is so important to grasp with. The idea that it is for the best interest of everyone that there is justice and equality in this land. And it's certainly not anti-Semitic to support Palestinian rights and Palestinian freedom.

Jonathan Walton: I'm wondering, so, Reverend Munther, you asked people to pray for Jerusalem. And I'm wondering if, Suzie, you could pray for Jerusalem to kinda close, like, one way of closing us. And then, Munther, you also talked about, just the church in America. And I'm wondering if you could also pray for us, because I do think there are, the seas are shifting and I think it's only the Spirit of God that will allow the seas to continue to shift. My prayer is that we would be able to stay in it and engage for a long time. And I'd like to ask for your intercession in that.

Munther Isaac: Sure.

Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. Let's, let's do it. Go for it, Suzie.

Suzie Lahoud: Okay. Let's pray.

Jonathan Walton: Of course, I want you to do it in Arabic FYI, but go ahead.

Suzie Lahoud: [laughs] Pastor Munther, you'll have to forgive my Arabic. But yeah, let's pray together.

[Prays in Arabic. Translation: Our Father, we thank you for this opportunity to speak with Pastor Munther. We thank you for his wisdom, for his ministry, and we want to pray a special blessing over his life and over the Palestine people. We thank you because you are close to every broken heart and every oppressed people. And we beseech you, grant peace, and justice, and healing in Palestine and Israel. In the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.]

Munther Isaac: Ameen.

And Lord, I pray that you raise voices and prophets among Christians here and everywhere, and especially in the United States, who are compassionate for justice, who are merciful and thirsty for righteousness and truth and justice, and who takes seriously your commandment to be peacemakers. For this is how we are called your children, your daughters and sons.

And I pray that the church realizes its potential to make change and impact lives through the work of the Kingdom, through mission, and through investing in peace and in a vision of a shared land where all of God's people live in dignity and peace and harmony.

May your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. And in your name, we pray. Amen. 

Sy Hoekstra: Amen.

Suzie Lahoud: Ameen.

Jonathan Walton: Amen.

Sy Hoekstra: Thank you so much, Pastor Munther, for being with us today. We really appreciate it.

Munther Isaac: Thank you.

[“Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in briefly, then fades out.] 

Jonathan Walton: Thank you so much for listening to this podcast today. Check out the links to all the resources in our show notes from Palestinian theologians mentioned in the episode, subscribe to our blog at KTFPress.com, and follow us on social media to keep up with everything that's happening @KTFPress.

And, as Sy mentioned at the top of the show, please email [email protected] with your questions, written or recorded as a voice memo. We'd love to hear from you.

Our theme song is by Jon Guerra. It's called “Citizens.” And our amazing podcast art is by Jacqueline Tam.

Thank you so much again, and we will see you next week!

[“Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades back in. Lyrics: “Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” Song fades out.]  

Today we have an interview with Irene Cho, the founder and CEO of a new urban, Christian leadership training company, The InBetween. Irene is a deeply empathetic and thoughtful person who talked to us about her company, her powerful approach to youth ministry, what it looks like for people to help steward the trauma of their communities, and a whole lot of other leadership wisdom.  

Shake the Dust is a podcast of KTF Press. Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Find transcripts of this show, sign up for our free mailing list, and subscribe to our blog at KTFPress.com. 

Hosts: 

Jonathan Walton – follow him on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter.  

Suzie Lahoud – follow her on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter.  

Sy Hoekstra – follow him on Twitter.  

Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra – listen to the whole song on Spotify. 

Our podcast art is by Jacqueline Tam – follow her and see her other work on Instagram.  

Shake the Dust is produced and edited by Sy Hoekstra, and transcribed by Suzie Lahoud with help from Descript. 

Questions about anything you heard on the show? Write to [email protected] and we may answer your question on a future episode. 

Transcript

Irene Cho: Of course, we want to help them deepen their questions. Not necessarily answer because how do we have an answer for where God is? Like, of course we don't have answers. That's the whole point of the book of Job, right? The point of the book of Job is his three friends try to answer that question, “Where is God? Why am I suffering?” and they got punished because they were being know-it-alls and arrogant and conceited and prideful that they could define God and define this meta question of suffering in the world, right. And what God wants us to do is sit with people and say, “I don't know the answers, and yes, it sucks, but I'm here with you. Let's figure this out.” Because we do know healing is going to come, right. That's the Sunday. Friday is here, and Sunday's coming around the corner.

[The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/That it will roll in abundance/ And that you’re building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.]   

Sy Hoekstra: Welcome to Shake the Dust, leaving colonized faith for the Kingdom of God, a podcast of KTF Press. I'm Sy Hoekstra here with Jonathan Walton and Suzie Lahoud.

Jonathan Walton: We are so excited to have Irene Cho with us today. She is a national speaker, writer, consultant, and advisor having worked with nonprofits for almost 30 years. She focused predominantly on youth identity and faith development. Her passion is for the misfits of the world and to bring the gospel message of joy and hope to the least, the lost, and the last. She's got a Master of Divinity from Talbot Theological Seminary and a BA in Christian Education from Biola University.

After serving as the Program Manager of Urban Leadership Training for the Fuller Youth Institute at Fuller Theological Seminary the last 11 years, Irene is embarking on a new venture resourcing those on the margins. She is the founder and CEO of a new leadership training company called The InBetween. We talk to her about that new venture, how she went about doing her powerful, empathetic youth ministry, and what it looks like for leaders to sustainably steward the trauma of communities. And we get a whole lot of leadership wisdom along the way.

Suzie Lahoud: As a reminder, if you like the show, you can support us by going to KTFPress.com and subscribing. A subscription gets you our weekly newsletter on resources to help you leave colonized faith for the Kingdom of God, bonus episodes of this show, and writing from the three of us. It also supports other projects we're working on like future books.

Sy Hoekstra: We wanted to set this up so that in addition to supporting a show that you like, you're also getting a lot of real quality substantive content from us. And so we're trying to put a lot of work into this stuff on a regular basis, and we hope that you all appreciate that and that you will consider subscribing.

We're also not on Patreon because Patreon is not great for people who use screen readers like me. So we are not going to be supporting that particular platform for that particular reason. But anyways, thank you for considering subscribing. We really, really appreciate it.

Suzie Lahoud: And having said all that, if you aren't in a position to pay for a subscription, that's totally fine. You can also hit the subscribe button on this podcast; follow us @KTFPress on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter; and tell your friends about us.

Sy Hoekstra: So without further ado, here is Irene Cho.

[“Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in briefly, then fades out.] 

Sy Hoekstra: Irene Cho, welcome to Shake the Dust. Thank you so much for being with us today!

Irene Cho: Thank you for having me. It's such an honor to be here.

Sy Hoekstra: We think the same about having you here. And can you just tell everyone what you're doing with your company?

Irene Cho: Yeah, so I just officially launched and have it registered as, you know, a small business. Hopefully going to grow into not so much of a small business, but really came up with this brain child. I've been in academia working as a program director for the last 11 years, where I was in charge of the urban leadership training at Fuller Theological Seminary. And my program ended and really was kind of faced with a question of what do I do now as I am hitting this certain age point? And, you know, I had really looked into should I go into actually being a professor in academia, going for my doctorate, you know, that whole world. Should I stay, you know, in some sort of ministry serving capacity or do I do this other element by which I really kind of want to marry the two together?

I feel that there's such a crucial place for research, in particular research based in academia, but also, you know, usually that kind of research or information gets stuck in academics. And if you don't go to a college or graduate school, you know, some of the information that is so vital to those doing the work in the field and on the ground, they don't get that information. And so one of the things that I loved about the place that I had previously worked at was that it was an institute that really tried to marry the two.

I think, you know, what they are presenting though is more for white, middle-class, evangelical ministries and churches and families, which is totally fine. Whereas my passion and heart is for those people who are serving in marginalized communities, under-resourced communities, underserved communities, underrepresented communities, whether that is what we used to call urban- you know, we haven't found a new, nice little catchy name for that- or, you know, even rural communities, anywhere, you know, people of color communities, where you just, they're not really necessarily in the mainstream and represented. And so where can, how can we create an institute or a learning space by which we're bringing in those who are doing training, those who provide that kind of information and teaching, but doing it for those who are on the ground, you know, whether they're moms, whether they're, you know, in small groups, whether they're your lay leaders or actual paid staff, you know, people who are doing the work, how can we do that?

And so, um, and the reason I call my company The InBetween is because I feel that most of my life that's been the theme. And so it is really reflective, I believe, of what we're kind of using as our tagline that the deepest, most transformational learning happens in the in-between space, which we don't really talk about a lot. In particular, when we see, you know, movies or TV shows, there's so much where we have a starting point of revelation and inspiration where the light bulb goes off, you know, and then we see the conclusion where the person is now fully, you know, understanding of that information, fully healed, fully transformed, but there's so much messiness that happens in the in-between space. And that's just a really crucial part.

No subject will be taboo. I just, I'm all about transparency and really uncovering the various different topics that have been not necessarily talked about, in particular in Christian settings. And so how do we, cause there, there's so much hunger there and there's so much desire and need to have these conversations. And so how can we create that space for folks who are deconstructing their faith, for folks who are dismantling, you know, socially, anthropologically, what they have known in their life and what they have normally, quote, unquote normally understood to be the standard. And now they're really processing and deconstructing all of that and dismantling it.

And there's not really space where you could learn from a professional, from someone who is an expert in these subject matters, because most of the time it's, I read a book, I'm in a book club, we're kind of all fumbling around and trying to figure it out, right. And so how can we create these little classroom mini spaces?

So it's not just going to be webinars, which is most of what training institutions or platforms are presenting. And it's very important- I mean, we're going to use those resources because they're needed where one person is teaching and you just listen on the other side- but rather we're wanting to create cohorts slash classroom spaces. Like you're actually going to get homework. You're going to need to do reading. You're going to need to have these conversations. But in regards to specific topics for folks who are what I call urban progressive people like, so you're not really fitting in the mold of evangelical and you're not fitting in the mold of what we call middle-class suburbia, you know, we're trying to fill in those other spaces for folks who don't fit those molds.

Sy Hoekstra: And it sounds like from your concept of what constitutes a leader that your training is very broad.

Irene Cho: It is very broad. Cause I feel, you know, in these, in particular, in these spaces, there are so many who are volunteers, you know, not necessarily paid staff. I just, I think, you know, I'm continually wanting to ask the question of how are we breaking the standardized infrastructure that we have thus far in church, in particular church structures. What have we set up? And those setups don't apply to people who are in marginalized communities. Like most of the leaders who were in our training program were bi-vocational, tri-vocational. Like there's, there's no way, right? So they volunteer at their church, they have a full-time job, and yet they also are, part-time working, you know, at this other position. And then they have families. They have, you know, they're just juggling so much.

And so I used to remember working in an immigrant church for me, in particular, you know, being involved in youth ministry. And at that time, the only youth ministry resources available were people who were white and very full-time paid staff, you know? And so they would have these get togethers or trainings and it would be like on a Wednesday at 10:00 AM and I'm like, at my job because I have to pay bills, and I don't work at my church except Friday through Sunday, right. Where is there capacity or space for me to do student visitations and do all these things that curricula, youth ministry curricula, would say, you know, you should meet with students during this time. And I'm like, okay, but not possible at all.

Sy Hoekstra: During your infinite time that you have.

Irene Cho: Right. Exactly. And, you know, that was me at mid-twenties where I had a plethora of energy. What about leaders who have family? And I was single, I didn't have kids. And so like, how do we address these, you know, address and compensate for leaders, as we call them, who are not necessarily fitting into that mold? So I'm just always trying to think of folks outside of the box that don't fit into what we have thus far deemed as people who are serving.

Suzie Lahoud: Wow, I love that, that emphasis on liminality and marginalization and just the really real and practical perspective that you bring to these spaces. And you just alluded now to your background in youth ministry and so, would you be willing to share just about that transition from the youth ministry that you were doing to, it sounds like your time at Fuller and academia, and then on. What did that, what did those transition periods look like for you and how did you make those decisions to move from one thing to the next? Do you think, in some cases, maybe you should have made those transitions sooner? If we could just kind of dig into those pieces of your story as much as you feel comfortable or feel like it would be helpful to share.

Irene Cho: Yeah, absolutely. Oh, so much. Let's, let’s sit on the couch and pop out, like take out the popcorn, cause I have so many stories to tell.

Jonathan Walton: Chips. Get the chips.

Suzie Lahoud: Yeah. We’ll get Jonathan’s chips.

Irene Cho: [laughs] Oh, lordy… So I stumbled into youth ministry. So I knew I wanted to be serving in some capacity and in, back then, you know, if I'm going to age myself, you know, back in the early nineties, when I received what I believe is a full calling from God to serve in some capacity, that was not my, you know, first choice. I wanted to be a journalist. I wanted to be the next Connie Chung. I was like, “Oh, I'm going to have a penthouse in New York. And I'm going to work for…” you know, at that time it was whatever, ABC news or 60 Minutes that, you know, we didn't have cable news really. And so that was my dream. And God was like, “No, I've got a whole other thing planned for you,” for a year. Which, I took a personality test, and, of course, so much better for where I'm at now. Like I would have been a terrible journalist really. Oh gosh.

So, you know, that was my senior year of college, I switched, or my senior year of high school, I switched out completely like which colleges I wanted to go to. And my advisor put me in Christian education, which is what my major was at that time. And I didn't even know. I, you know, I don't even think they asked me, they had just kind of assigned me that major. And it was perfect because we had a biblical major, we had intercultural studies, and we had Christian education as kind of the three Trinity tri-fold in regards to serving in some form of capacity.

And so I did that and I ended up focusing on youth ministry because my, you know, I wasn't a very elementary school person. That age group doesn't really interest me, which, you know, already breaks the mold because usually Christian women are relegated to children's ministry. I don't, I love infants to four years-old, and then from five, if I could pass off, you know, the kid until the age of 12 then bring them back, that's my, like, that's my whole thing. And so, you know, people think that it's very not the norm to, you know, love middle schoolers because they can be a pain in the behind and they ask, you know, and there's just, it's such a complicated age period where you're growing into your identity and you know, you don't know who you are and you're full of angst and you're full of insecurities. And you're entering into this new space and new world where you're leaving the safety of, you know, elementary school age, where everything is very concrete and very direct and very clear. And now you're moving into this abstract space where you're learning new concepts and it's just a, it's such an angsty time.

And I think because my own time period, when my parents got divorced, when I was nine and we moved from Los Angeles to New York, I moved from a space that was pretty diverse-I didn't even know this at this time- it was pretty diverse. And then moving into a city that was 85% Jewish, very upper middle-class- not even middle-class- very, very wealthy neighborhood. One of four Asian kids, you know, at that time where I'm looking like I'm 10 years-old, when everyone is starting to blossom and grow into their bodily, you know, spaces, I'm not entering into that. And so it was a horrible time and I had very buckteeth and my, I hadn't, I grew into them eventually, I think, you know, and it was just, it was a difficult time period of anger and uncertainty and all of that.

And so for me, I think that's why I really gravitated towards youth ministry, in particular middle school ministry. Because I really wanted to help young people in that age group know that it's going to be okay. And help them really get comfortable in who they are and affirm them and know that their questions and their anger and their emotions and their angstyness and insecurities are all valid, but also that you're going to be okay.

And so I think, you know, after 13 years of doing nine years of middle school and then four years of high school, transitioning to high school, which was a whole other game changer because, oh my gosh, some of them drive and they can pick each other up. It’s just a whole other game, right.

And I think, I had a supervisor who, and mentor who, when he hit the age of 32, he was like, “I think I’m ready to kind of leave.” And I think I was 24 at that time. And I was like, “You pansy.” Like, “You trader. You're not like loyal at all.” [laughing] And I remember when I was 31 or 32, I hit the same age and it was at my, the last retreat I led, and I was like looking around and I was like, “Oh yeah, I'm a little tired.” And I, not only was I tired, but I didn't know if I was necessarily bringing the freshness that, you know, I, that I had when I was younger. I, there was a lot more, I needed a lot more sleep. [laughs]

Suzie Lahoud: I feel that.

Irene Cho: Yeah. During the lock-ins where I would just be with the kids all the time, I'm like, “All right, I'm going to go in the office. If there's any problems, knock on my door, but only knock on the door when it's like, the building's on fire and we have to evacuate. Okay.” [all laughing] And I think I hit that moment.

But also, on top of that, the last church that I served at, which I call the church from hell, I, it was a very awful experience. My supervisor was one who didn't believe that women should be serving in ministry outside of children's ministry, that women shouldn't be ordained. It was like two years of horridness just working under that gentleman. I've shared other stories, but you know, the middle school- I was a high school leader- and the middle school pastor and I were talking and there had been, there had been some complications. I had gotten hired full time, which was amazing. It was going to be my first full-time position. And then they had issues in the upstairs, quote unquote, adult ministry area. And so because of politics, they ended up slashing everyone to half-time status if you were still in seminary. And I was like, “I'm a team player, that's fine. Like I have one semester left.” It was a three-unit course. And then I would be done in three months, right. So I was like, “It's fine.”

But in between those three months, my supervisor got hired. And so, you know, I, the middle school pastor and I were talking and he was complaining because he had to work two jobs for his health to get healthcare, to start saving up money, cause he wanted to get married. And I said, “I'm really sorry.” And he was like, “Why are you sorry?” And I, I said, “Because I'm the reason you're not getting a full-time position.” And we had a hundred, each had 110 students. How can you not have a full-time youth leader taking care of 110 students, right? There were complaints that I wasn't doing visitations and all these things. And I'm like, “I just, there's no way. Cause I have to pay bills and you are paying me like $10 an hour for this half-time job,” or whatever. And so I told the middle school pastor, “You know, you just wait. The moment I walk out the door, when I quit, two weeks later you're going to get a full-time offer on the table.”

And you know, I ended up getting fired because I was too progressive. I was too, you know, much of a rebel. I wasn't, according to their words, a team player, and all of these things, cause I was starting to really expand in my, deconstructing my theology of who Jesus is and what ministry actually is. And it really was because I took an exegetical of the gospels class. So I'm like not doing anything unbiblical here. Just asking a lot more questions of what we have deemed as, you know, right, or Jesus-like, which wasn't Jesus-like at all. So, you know, ended up being asked to leave, and lo and behold, two weeks after I was asked to leave the middle school pastor got his full-time offer on the table two weeks later.

Jonathan Walton: Of course he did.

Irene Cho: Of course he did. And so, and it's been only males being hired since then, you know. And so, I think that whole experience, by then, I, from some life stuff that I was asking really hard questions about trauma and pain and suffering and where is God in all of that. I was doing a lot of deconstruction work of what we had been told in the church where it was very much, Jesus will heal all things, cookie cutter, band-aid type of mantras and teachings. And really I was, I was questioning a lot of that. And then this, the whole experience with that part of the church really started, you know, leaving a bad taste in my mouth.

And then on top of that, you know, again, this was the early 2000s and I felt like I was the only one in my church environment asking questions about LGBTQIA folks- you know, back then it was just four letters- and saying, what are we doing as a church? Why are we not doing more to love on these folks and to meet a need, you know, a dire need? And this is before any research that I knew had come out and nobody wanted to touch the, the gay question in any church capacity, right.

And so there were a lot of questions I started asking and I started wondering, “Is me being a pastor or youth pastor going to be the way to start making changes in ways that needed to be made?” And I think that's, there were so many elements that really started having me, kind of move on from doing direct on the ground ministry. And then I got a position in a nonprofit that was training urban leaders. And that really started opening my eyes that there were so many other ways to really make an impact, right, and really help leaders ask these important questions rather than me just doing my little silo ministry, which is- I don't want to say little like belittling it- but you know, my one, individual, personalized youth ministry group versus how can I start training leaders who are going to make an impact in the lives of these young people?

So then I, from there probably in 2005, 2004, started going into doing leadership training and working with leaders who are working with young people. And then it was really from there kind of continually moving on and moving on. And now I'm here where I want to start my own company, cause I still feel that most of the training institutions are still not at the place where I think a lot of folks are at where I think the church, and I say that as an institution, and leaders who are in the church are unwilling or scared to, for fear of loss of jobs or, you know, all the things in position are afraid to, or unwilling to ask the questions that I believe are, are really crucial, especially for the next generation. So, yeah.

Jonathan Walton: Yeah, so you're talking about being a youth pastor, being a youth leader, and zeroing in on that particularly, just with the fast-pace that things happen and how quickly young people learn, what do you think young people in toxic church environments can do to start decolonizing their faith and how can youth pastors help?

Irene Cho: Yeah. Oh, it's such a loaded, great question. You know, for every student or kid in youth ministry, number one, I hope their youth leader is also asking these questions, right. And so A) I think that's such a rarity, cause I know I, from what I have seen of youth ministry world, not a lot of them are asking these questions. I know they have a lot on their plate, you know, and I know they're required to do a lot of things and are juggling a lot. So, you know, that's all great.

And yet, I think there is a very clear dissatisfaction that kids have when they graduate. You know, the Fuller Youth Institute did a research study from their Sticky Faith, what they call their Sticky Faith research, that showed, you know, kids, a majority of kids really liked their youth pastor, but they left when they graduated or they left youth ministry to move on into adulthood.

Most of the responses were, “I never felt like I was known.” “I didn't feel like I really learned.” “I don't, I didn't feel like church was a safe place,” you know. And there were a lot of those. But they really liked the youth pastor. And so the question I have for youth leaders in particular is, is your popularity, is that what you are trying to be- the cool youth leader, you know? Which, I think a lot of times we are told that that's the key to connecting with young people, right. And yet, all of the research directly from young people are saying otherwise. And we see stories where you see authentic older folks connecting because of the genuineness, the authenticity, the willingness to have conversations on difficult topics.

And I, I still have so many relationships with my youth kids who, in particular, who were from that high school ministry, where we have lots of, where I have issues. The kids mend my relationship, I felt were so profound. Like if I had it my way, I would have stayed one more year and concluded and graduated and left with my freshman class who came in, right. And I'm sad that I wasn't able to do that, but I still have such good relationships with a good handful of them. And they, the thing that, you know, and I don't say this bragging about myself, cause I made a lot of mistakes, you know. And I share always one of the reasons I love training leaders is to share my mistakes and to not make the same mistakes I did. But I think one of the things that I am going to brag about that I did really well was to give them a safe space. I share this all the time when I do training. There was- after I got fired, and fired, again, for providing the safe space and not being a dictator and an authoritarian figure to my students and to lay down the law, that I actually respected my kids and said, “We're going to have conversations about this and this learning process. And you growing is not my journey. It's your journey. And I'm here to help you,” right.

So there are two elements. Number one, how do you create a space? And, you know, I would have this thing where, back then in particular, you know, the big topic was smoking. Again, this was the early 2000s, right. And we had a couple of kids who did, you know, marijuana and stuff. I didn't have a lot of kids who were doing like hardcore drugs or anything like that in that youth ministry in particular. Not that it would be any different, I think, in my methodology. So let's take our kids who were smoking. You know, I would, every week, you know, I never ever told them that it was cool to smoke. And yet, somehow that bizarre narrative like kind of came up [Sy laughs] and it was all lies and like slander of me, right. But like every kid knew that I didn't approve and I was very honest. I'm like, “You're going to be impotent. It's going to stunt your growth.” I said it all. [Jonathan laughs] Like there was nothing I wouldn't say at the pulpit to my students, right, of like utilizing and saying, “You should live your life to the fullest in the fullest capacity that you can in enjoyment.” And I'm like, “You're, this is a temporary fix.” And like, you know, all these things. So I was never, I was never shying away from the fact that I disapproved.

But on the other side of that, it is a struggle. It's an addiction. Like I fully get it. My mom and dad were smokers and my mom, I watched her struggle. It took her a really long time to quit smoking. And so every day, every week, you know, that I met with the kids, I would come in and all of the 10, 12 boys in particular, who were smoking, all were very vulnerable with me. And we all knew their journey. So they would come in and I would be like, “How are you doing? How many days has it been?” And they were like, “I f’d up,” you know. And they would cuss in front of me and they would say, “I f’d up, I had a huge fight with my mom yesterday. I was so angry. I can't stand her,” this and that. “And I had to have a smoke.” And I'm like, “That's okay. It's totally understandable. Did you have one today?” And they were like, “No, I didn't. I didn't have time. I got ready. And then I came to church.” I'm like, “So today's day one. Let's start again.” And like, I would high five them and like, I'm going on this journey with them, you know what I mean?

So it's like, you know, we go to retreats and in my previous other ministries that I was, you know, serving in where I wasn't the one making, calling the shots, you know, we would expel students if they got caught smoking. So they would go sneak out into the woods and then like have a cigarette and we would do patrol. And then if they got caught, they would get sent home or whatever, right. And I was like, I'm not going to do it that way. So we would have the rule where obviously you're not allowed to smoke. This is a no-smoking camp or a conference center or campus or whatever. And for those of you who are struggling, you're going to come and talk to me or one of the counselors, and we will drive you off the property. And, you know, we will, we are going to be with you if you're really struggling, but we really, really challenge you to try to take this time to make it a detox weekend and like, you know, do all of that.

And I had a volunteer come up to me because this was so unconventional. And they were, they were disapproving. And they, and I said, “Look, is it better for me to have them repress and hide and sneak out and then they cause a forest fire and all these things happen? Or is it better that they are able to journey with me and know that I am this safe space for them where I know they're not imperfect [sic]? They know that I'm not imperfect [sic], but we're doing this journey together to try to be more Jesus-like and to live the best life that we can live, you know, and we're, I'm cheerleading them on and encouraging them without any compromise of what the bottom line is. The bottom line is stop smoking. The bottom line is stop gossiping. The bottom line is stop bullying,” you know. All these things, right.

And I had to talk with this volunteer through and they really processed it and started to see what relational ministry actually was doing, how effective it was like that kids were really desiring to come to church and it wasn't about the games and it wasn't about the pizza. It was about the fact that they were having a space where they're getting challenged, where they're being asked hard questions. They weren't getting let off the hook, you know, and yet they really loved it. You know what I mean?

So after I get fired, I'm watching Oprah. It's a repeat, you know, episode. It's one in the morning. I'm in bed and there was this episode where a girl- she's beautiful. I think she was Mexican American. Her name is Jennifer and her story- I think you can find, I forget her last name- she was a sophomore in college and she went out with two of her girlfriends to a party, a college party. And as they're waiting at the stoplight, at the red light, a high schooler, junior in high school, was driving home drunk from a party and slammed into them. Cars caught on fire and her friends died and she was burned with third and fourth degree burns. And so he went to prison for involuntary manslaughter. And so, right, prime of his life. He’s doing the SATs. He’s about to go, like do college applications, just all of the hopefulness. And he is now in jail.

So she comes on and she has no eyelids. Her fingers are all melted. Her father has to dress her every day. Her father has to put drops in her eyes every 30 minutes cause she doesn't blink. There's not a dry eye anywhere. And this girl is just so filled with life and hope and it's so powerful and so amazing. And, you know, the cause that she's now trying to, you know, educate people on, about not drunk driving, et cetera. And the mom of the son is on the show, because they obviously can't film him as a minor, and she comes out and she is there to apologize. Cause this is the first time they're meeting in person. And she can't get through it. And she is just sobbing, trying to apologize for what her son did.

And Oprah asks her, “What do you want to tell every parent in the world as they see this? What do you wish to share that you have learned through all of this?” And she says- and I will never forget this- “I raised my son in a black-and-white world, a world of do's and don'ts, and I just wish I could have gone back and said to him, ‘I don't approve of you drinking. But if you find yourself in a situation that you have compromised in, give me a call. You won't get grounded. We'll figure it out together. I want you to be safe.’” And she was like, “Your kids are going to drink. Your kids are gonna make decisions that are not okay. And the question is, do they know that you are their backup plan, that you are the plan, that you are the safe space for them to call?” And I was screaming in my room, pointing at the camera, like, or at the TV, just, just screaming at the top of my lungs, “That's it! That's the gospel right there. That's Jesus fully in a nutshell,” right.

And I wish all leaders in whatever, not even just in Christian tradition, in all traditions, like that is who we are trying to emulate. That's the empathy that Jesus calls us to, right. This is the molds that he breaks. It's not about the fact that he broke sabbatical or, you know, that Sabbath, and that he healed on that day. He's talking about the principle of empathy, right? He's, he and the religious leaders at that time, just, they cannot, they cannot get out of that mold of do's and don'ts of, of what, you know, Dallas Willard calls, the gospel of sin management and it's all of that that I just wish leaders would understand.

It's not about you instilling, and here goes my second point… So, number one, how can you create safe spaces for young people? Not because you're compromising on what you believe is right or wrong, but that your journey, so that they can know they can ask these hard questions without somebody jumping down their throats, without somebody attacking them, without making them feel like you're a horrible Christian because they're doubting their faith or asking questions that aren't fitting in the little like, you know, square box that we're trying to squeeze evangelical God in. You know, all these things where trauma and suffering, if I have been raped, which is my story, by my senior pastor, like, where was God? Like these difficult questions that can't be wrapped up in a nice little, 15-, 20-minute sermon, right? How do you journey that students would actually know that you are the person that can pick up the phone at 2:00 AM when they find themselves at a party and they don't want to be there anymore? Are you the person that they're going to call or are they going to be like, my pastor can never know about this because I will get kicked out of youth group, right? Like, how are we doing that?

Which leads to my second point of like, you're not here in actuality to help build Bible quiz champions, where they can regurgitate, you know, like all of their biblical knowledge. It's great. Of course, we need to know the Bible. Of course, we need to understand scripture because scripture is how we understand God's heart, right. We understand God's purpose and God's vision and God's desire for us as humans, for all of humanity. So I'm not saying ignore the Bible and chuck it out the door.

I am a Bible nerd. I geek out to Bible stuff, right. So like, but are you creating people who are able to regurgitate information or you are helping mold people to be transformed in their lives? And that means providing more questions than answers. Again, referring back to my friend, Andy Marin, he said he ended up meeting in his research process, meeting a gentleman who his whole doctoral study was on open-ended questions. Which, my friend was like, how did he get funding for that? I don't even know.

But as he met him, he was so fascinated by this concept of open-ended questions versus close-ended questions, right. Which is, “What is the weather today?” “The weather is 65 degrees.” That's a close-ended question. “Do you like bananas?” That's a close-ended question, right. And in this fascinating, in this research of the, again, the LGBTQI issue, you know, the question of, “If I'm gay, will I go to hell?” that's a closed-ended question, right. And so he went through all four gospels and line by line. He said, Jesus never answered a close-ended question that the religious leaders gave him with a closed-ended answer. He always responded back from their close-ended question with an open-ended question. He never answered the question because he knew it was a trap.

He knew it was just to confirm their bias or their assumption of you, right. Which is usually the purpose of a close-ended question. And so he always responded back with an open-ended question. And the only time he actually answered was when he was at the end of his ministry, ready to face his death and Pontius Pilate asks him, “Are you the man who they say that you are?” And he says, “I am who they say that I am.” And he answers the question, right.

And so we need to be helping these little humans learn how to ask more questions, how to ask better questions of themselves, of their families, of their lives, of their friends, of their communities, of the systems of government, of like all the things, right. And so, and, you know, I intuitively started doing that and I think because my mom raised me that way. And so with all the research that continually comes out, I just go home back to my mom, and I'm like, “Job well done, woman, for not having any like resources for how to, you know, raise a, you know, an insightful human being.” I just always high five her. She was like, “Okay.” Cause she was like doing that. And my students would be constantly frustrated with me because they would ask me a question and I would throw back a question at them. And this was, again, before I even knew that I was doing the right thing, right, or being Jesus-like. And so, and they would get so frustrated because they're like, “Just give me the answer,” you know, “Pastor Irene.” And I'm like, “No, that's not my job.”

As you said, we're not with them all the time. So my job isn't to make sure they can checkmark all the little boxes, because they're going to go to college and then life, even more life stuff, shtuff is going to happen to them. And it's going to have them ask even bigger questions, which was one of the things that these kids in the Sticky Faith research was saying- they didn't feel that their church prepared them for life. Their church did not prepare them for these bigger questions. And that was a thing. Like Steve Jobs in his biography, right, was one of the things when he was 13 years-old, asked his priest, as he saw a Time cover magazine about Africa and poverty and AIDS. And he was like, “Where is God in all of this suffering?” And his priest told him, “You don't need to worry about that. That's not a question that, you know, you have to bother with.” And I'm like, “Why would you tell that to this 13 year-old, who has these huge, gigantic, metaphysical questions about life and suffering and God?”

And, you know, of course we want to help them deepen their questions. Not necessarily answer, because how do we have an answer for where God is? Like, of course we don't have answers. That's the whole point of the book of Job, right? The point of the book of Job is his three friends tried to answer that question, “Where is God? Why am I suffering?” And they got punished because they were being know-it-alls and arrogant and conceited and prideful that they could define God and define this meta-question of suffering in the world, right. And what God wants us to do is sit with people and say, “I don't know the answers, and yes, it sucks, but I'm here with you. Let's figure this out.” Because we do know from life and from research, from wisdom, healing is going to come, right. That's the Sunday. Friday is here and Sunday’s coming around the corner, right.

The promise is that there will be healing, not the promise that we're going to know why this happened. I don't know why I was raped to this day. When I meet the Lord, I hope one day, I will, somehow, maybe, know the whole divine Providence for why this terrible thing was again, you know, allowed to happen or did happen or, you know, whatever the words we want to use semantically to describe it.

But like, in my finite humanity right now, all I know is that I have grown from it. I have grown wiser from it. I have grown stronger from it. I'm more empathetic because of it. I have more information about trauma and healing because of it. All the things that the Bible promises us actually happens. Not this lie that evangelicalism has told us where Jesus is going to make it all better. No, it absolutely did not make it better. Like I still get triggered. When the Me Too movement started happening, like it was all of my wounds and scars that were fully healed and there are scar, like wound markings, but not bleeding, happening there. You could feel the tingling, you know what I mean? Like all the triggers are just under the surface.

And so do we like wish that we wouldn't have to live in a painful world? Of course we want to live in utopia, but this is the world that we live in and we hurt one another. And there are systems and structures in place that are hurtful and harmful and toxic and all of these things. So your job as a leader is not to help them checkmark boxes. Your job as a leader is to prepare them to know BS and horrible things are coming down the pipeline because that's life and nobody is, you know, immune to pain. Nobody is immune to suffering. And the question is, are we helping them know how to have the tools to be prepared for that, right? And so I would say those are the two-fold number one for leaders.

And then for young people, you know, as I counsel, continually counsel, young people who are so traumatized and so hurt by what they've experienced at the church, in the church, by church leaders, I just would sit with them and say, “I know, and I'm with you. And it sucks. And people suck. And I'm really sorry. And how can, how can we talk about it, and share about it, and how can we learn, and how can I be there for you? In what ways, you know, can I be a shoulder for you to cry on, a body that you can lean on, a spirit that can give you hope in the midst of a time period when you might not see any hope at all whatsoever?” But not in a toxic positive kind of way, but a very realistic, you know, “I've been through, I've been through a lot. And so let me be a beacon to know you're going to be okay. Like I'm with you. Like you're not alone in this journey,” right. And I think that's the best we can do because at the end of the day, each person in community needs to find their path of healing, needs to find their journey for what that looks like.

And everybody is different. Some people are going to hunker down and really kind of like action their way through. Other people are going to have to really sit in their emotions and dissect and understand it and do all of that, you know. And other people are going to have to confront and, you know, do other ways by which, you know, they're going to find healing through justice means, right. So everybody's different. And we have to allow everybody to go at their pace and to have their process, I think. And so I think just empathetically being with people is the most important.

Jonathan Walton: Thank you for sharing all of that.

Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, oh my God.

Jonathan Walton: Because, particularly because I think, one, like exegesis is important too. Like I think you, you did not answer the question in such a way that gives us more information, but you answered the question in a way that invites us to the feet of Jesus, which is reflected in you because you're made in his image. And so I appreciate that. And I'm grateful for you allowing us to know you and hopefully, if we do the work, to know God and ourselves better as well.

Irene Cho: Yeah.

Sy Hoekstra: I have, I just want to say I have like a very direct, specific example of what you were talking about before of getting kids to talk, to ask bigger questions.

Irene Cho: Yeah.

Sy Hoekstra: A big question that I had before I was deciding whether or not I wanted to, like commit myself to Jesus was I, I just did not like the idea of hell and I didn't like the idea that God had created, you know, a universe in which, the, you know, billions of people or whatever would, would suffer forever and he knew that that was going to happen when he created it. And we believe that he's perfect. So he didn't need us. And like all the, you know, it just didn't, it seemed kind of needless and cruel.

And it was, it was somebody in my youth ministry, a volunteer actually, a 19 year-old volunteer who I'm still friends with, who kind of pointed me to like, whatever problems you have with that, that's actually a less important or compelling question than the question of why did God make everything, knowing that he would have to suffer through all that, right? Like knowing that he was going to the cross, knowing that he was going to experience like everything that we experience as people. And so then, like from there, you can say, well, whatever he's doing with creation, you can trust him, right? Like it's a point of trust. It's a point of authenticity and I, I dunno, I just, you took me back there very pointedly to a specific time where someone getting me to ask a different question, getting me to ask a different question led directly to me, like deciding to follow Jesus.

Irene Cho: Yeah. And it's those things like, and I would do that. I would share my understanding and my belief, but I would also always ask bigger questions. Like I believe in that, but there are still going to be questions by which, you know, is this a necessity? There are people who strongly believe in God and don't believe in hell at all. Like, and that's okay. I always would tell students, go in the rabbit hole, do the journey, but have like, have a tie, have an anchor because you know, I've done the rabbit hole trail. And so I would, I would share with them like, bounce these questions off with somebody who's safe, bounce these questions off, as you're asking, like, you know, ask all the questions that you need because there are going to be answers and there aren't going to be answers and it might lead you to more questions. And that's okay. Like God can handle, God can handle all the questions that you have. And you may not end up finding answers and all of these things, but, you know, try to make sure you don't forget where home base is.

And I think kids really appreciate it when I say to them, “That's an excellent question. I fully don't have an answer for that. I still don't know why there's suffering in the world. And that's one of the first questions I'm going to ask God when I meet God.” And that's so reassuring for them, you know what I mean? They're like, “Oh, my youth pastor is,” you would think like, I know a lot of leaders are worried and they're like, “Oh, I have to have all the answers.” No, you so totally do not. And what it does is… and you can even invite them and be like, “Hey, let's read this book together.” And like, “Let's ask these questions together because I also don't know.” And what a great opportunity that is.

Sy Hoekstra: So switching gears a little bit, I think, um, you talk a lot about leaders being people who have to constantly deal with or steward the trauma of their communities. Yeah, could you just give us a couple of ideas or examples of what practically it looks like for people to help, for leaders, Christian leaders, to help the communities, you know, steward trauma well? And maybe in particular touch on, you know, when we have all the videos of police brutality going around all the time and we have the Me Too movement that you've already brought up, there's just kind of so much of it in the air. So what does that look like for leaders to help in that way?

Irene Cho: Yeah. We could do a whole other episode on this.

Jonathan Walton: We could.

Irene Cho: You know, I think first of all, number one, I want to validate it is exhausting because like helping and walking with people, you're, you have your own stuff that you deal with, right. And then to walk alongside a community that may never really see an end to the struggles is, is so exhausting. And so we talk about this a lot. Self-care is one of the most crucial practices for you as a leader when you are engaging with communities of trauma, or communities with trauma.

So we talk about this a lot in urban contexts, by which, you know, we feel this burden and this passion and this obligation to be the savior of that community and of those people. And not in a vindictive kind of way, right? It's very, the intention and the desire I think is, is very warranted, is very, is very good, but you can burn yourself out from the savior complex. So number one, you know, take care of yourself, finding rhythms that are good.

I know the work is so plentiful. The work is so overwhelming. The work and the need is just like suffocating. You, you have to find those spaces by which you can unplug, even in the city, unplug in the chaos, and go away for just a time period. It's there, that time is there. Jesus was bombarded by hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people on a daily basis. And yet found time and capacity to go recover and recuperate and like rejuvenate himself, right. So let's model that. Let's model after who we are trying to model after and really do self-care.

Number two, we have to become knowledgeable. I think, you know, this idea in the church that therapy and psychology and anthropology and sociology are against God, that all of those scientific understandings are not faithful, the stigma of that continually needs to be dismantled. And like, there's so much information that is needed to be conveyed for how to address the way we communicate, the way we resolve conflict, the way we take action, you know, civil action against the systems and structures. And we need, we need people to tie those things together because we have the activists, we have the people, the leaders who are doing nonprofit work, you know, leading on the ground. We have the people, you know, who are fertilizing, who are supposed to keep the peace of the community. And we do not have the tools really to helpfully, holistically, intersect and intertwine and engage all of the different schools of thought and practices that would help alleviate that, right.

And so, and I know that's really complex. There's so many levels. I mean, I just said a huge mouthful and there's like a monolith of stuff by which we can address when talking about like all of these things. But as one leader who's engaging, you know, equip yourself with better tools for understanding how to psychologically like help people and yourself get better, right. And we could do it in lay terminologies. There's books out there, there's video out there. There are, there are people who are willing to train, you know, others.

I had a friend, they do government grants where they help with that. And so they had a whole program where they went into various lower income communities and helped with marital counseling. And in like the, you know, stories that came out of these families who would not have access to therapy and marital counseling who went through these classes and training, and they're like, “Not only is this helping our marriage, but it is helping us learn how to be better parents now,” because they are having tools to learn how to ask better questions, tools to learn how to do conflict management and deescalate themselves and deescalate with their kids, right.

And these are all these things by which these communities, we need to provide these tools. And so how can we continually do that as leaders and bring in experts, bring in people, learn how to, and this is the third thing, learn how to collaborate together. Again, removing the savior complex. You cannot be all things to all people. Even Superman has his kryptonite.

I am a Jack of all trades. I'm very talented in a lot of things, but I am not talented and capable in a lot of other different areas. And I need to admit to that and I need to own that and I need to be like, “Experts come in and like help with this community,” right. And let's do this thing together and not even bring an expert there, but there might be experts within your own community that you did not know that were there, right. And so we talk about this a lot in urban trainings of like, what are the assets that already exist in your communities and how can you collaborate and expand on that?

And so, you know, I think the trauma element is so, it's such a gigantic animal. And there's, it's like things that are in our capacity to change, things that are outside of our capacity to change, things that take longer for us to address, things that are immediate that we need to address. And I think it's really important as leaders to understand what are the assets in your community so that we could collaborate together because there are so many levels to address and attack and to, you know, deal with that can happen all at the same time if we are being an Avengers team, not just depending on Superman.

Suzie Lahoud: Yeah. Thank you, Irene, for just all of the things that you touched on and, yeah, no, I just resonate when you were talking about looking at the assets in your community, it just reminded me a lot of the work that my husband and I were involved in in Lebanon with the refugee population there. And one of the important things that I feel like we learned was just how, when you talk about trauma in communities, one of the most healing things for a community is to be involved in their own healing and to be able to be a part of that, that reconstruction process, on the personal and interpersonal level, on the communal level, and to be able to help rebuild their own lives and to be able to contribute because they have so much to give. And so moving away from that just sort of giver/receiver dichotomy.

And, so yeah, I think all I really want to say is just amen to what you shared. There's so much wisdom to that and, yeah, and just, I love how I feel like one of the themes that you're sharing is just seeing people as whole people and embracing them in their humanity and, you know, all being able to move towards transformative work together. So, yeah, again, just thank you for coming on the show and for sharing all of that.

Irene Cho: Thank you. All the snaps to what you just shared.

Sy Hoekstra: I'd second that. This has been fantastic. We really appreciate all the time. And just before we go, what do you want people to see? Where do you want them to follow you?

Irene Cho: Um, everything on my social is Irene M, as in Michelle, Cho. I'm probably the most active on Twitter, but I'm also the most abrasive on Twitter. [laughs] And then I have more, I'm more insightful on Facebook, and then some insightful stuff on Instagram, but a little bit more fun stuff.

And then the website is FindingTheInBetween.com because I could not, at the moment, get The InBetween, but I'm hoping to somehow get that later. And if you want to follow The InBetween, everything on social is @TheInBtw. And, but the website is Finding The InBetween for now. And so I have some blog entries on there and hopefully, I'm in the works right now to start building the whole platform to create classes that you could sign up for. We have a certificate that we're going to be launching out at the end of August for the fall. So if you are interested in getting a one-year urban training from some of the top four, you know, leaders on the ground who are doing the work, they're phenomenal. We'll be talking about different subjects of, you know, the theology and philosophy of urban ministry, holistic understanding of you as an urban leader, talking about trauma and self-care in there in particular, abuse, you know, healing, all of those things. And then leadership management is the fourth course. And then the fifth is community development and engagement.

So if you want to do that it's only $1,000 dollars. We used to do this program in my old job, and it was an $8,000 course. And we're basically bringing it down because it's predominantly online and you won't be meeting in a classroom officially like face-to-face physically, but you'll get all of the learning, all of the training, and it'll be only a year versus a two-year program. So we figured this is a launch pilot. So the price will probably go up after this launch, you know, when we do run the next cohort. So take advantage of it if you would like and sign up on the website.

Sy Hoekstra: Yes, absolutely. We encourage that. Irene Cho, thank you so much for being with us today.

Irene Cho: Thanks for having me. Thanks for letting me ramble on. [laughs]

Jonathan Walton: Thank you so much.

[“Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in briefly, then fades out.] 

Sy Hoekstra: Thank you so much for listening. Please remember if you enjoy listening to this show to consider going and subscribing at KTFPress.com. And either way, please follow us on social media, @KTFPress on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter, and tell your friends about us, please. We would really appreciate it. Word of mouth is a great way to support the show.

Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra. Our podcast art is by Jacqueline Tam, and we will see you all next week.

[“Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades back in. Lyrics: “Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” Song fades out.]  

Sy Hoekstra: Irene Cho, welcome to Shake the Dust. Thank you so much for being with u-yus today.

Irene Cho: Thank you for having me.

Sy Hoekstra: Wow. Okay, no, I messed up literally the first line. [Irene laughs]

Jonathan Walton: Go back please. [Suzie chuckles]

Sy Hoekstra: I will try that again…

Today we have an interview with Irene Cho, the founder and CEO of a new urban, Christian leadership training company, The InBetween. Irene is a deeply empathetic and thoughtful person who talked to us about her company, her powerful approach to youth ministry, what it looks like for people to help steward the trauma of their communities, and a whole lot of other leadership wisdom. And this is a bonus extended version of the interview for you, our subscribers. Thanks so much for supporting us! 

Shake the Dust is a podcast of KTF Press. Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Find transcripts of this show at KTFPress.com. 

Hosts: 

Jonathan Walton – follow him on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter.  

Suzie Lahoud – follow her on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter.  

Sy Hoekstra – follow him on Twitter.  

Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra – listen to the whole song on Spotify. 

Our podcast art is by Jacqueline Tam – follow her and see her other work on Instagram.  

Shake the Dust is produced and edited by Sy Hoekstra, and transcribed by Suzie Lahoud with help from Descript. 

Questions about anything you heard on the show? Write to [email protected] and we may answer your question on a future episode.

Transcript 

Irene Cho: Of course, we want to help them deepen their questions. Not necessarily answer because how do we have an answer for where God is? Like, of course we don't have answers. That's the whole point of the book of Job, right? The point of the book of Job is his three friends try to answer that question, “Where is God? Why am I suffering?” and they got punished because they were being know-it-alls and arrogant and conceited and prideful that they could define God and define this meta question of suffering in the world, right. And what God wants us to do is sit with people and say, “I don't know the answers, and yes, it sucks, but I'm here with you. Let's figure this out.” Because we do know healing is going to come, right. That's the Sunday. Friday is here, and Sunday's coming around the corner.

[The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/That it will roll in abundance/ And that you’re building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.]   

Sy Hoekstra: Welcome to Shake the Dust, leaving colonized faith for the Kingdom of God, a podcast of KTF Press. I'm Sy Hoekstra here with Jonathan Walton and Suzie Lahoud.

Jonathan Walton: We are so excited to have Irene Cho with us today. She is a national speaker, writer, consultant, and advisor having worked with nonprofits for almost 30 years. She focused predominantly on youth identity and faith development. Her passion is for the misfits of the world and to bring the gospel message of joy and hope to the least, the lost, and the last. She's got a Master of Divinity from Talbot Theological Seminary and a BA in Christian Education from Biola University.

After serving as the Program Manager of Urban Leadership Training for the Fuller Youth Institute at Fuller Theological Seminary the last 11 years, Irene is embarking on a new venture resourcing those on the margins. She is the founder and CEO of a new leadership training company called The InBetween. We talk to her about that new venture, how she went about doing her powerful, empathetic youth ministry, and what it looks like for leaders to sustainably steward the trauma of communities. And we get a whole lot of leadership wisdom along the way.

Sy Hoekstra: Now this is the bonus, extended, subscribers only cut of this particular interview that we're putting out on the feed for people who have subscribed, the occasional bonus content that we put out on the podcast in addition to everything that's on the blog as a thank you for subscribing. We really appreciate it.

And so without further ado, here is Irene Cho…

[“Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in briefly, then fades out.] 

Sy Hoekstra: Irene Cho, welcome to Shake the Dust. Thank you so much for being with us today!

Irene Cho: Thank you for having me. It's such an honor to be here.

Sy Hoekstra: We think the same about having you here. And can you just tell everyone what you're doing with your company?

Irene Cho: Yeah, so I just officially launched and have it registered as, you know, a small business. Hopefully going to grow into not so much of a small business, but really came up with this brain child. I've been in academia working as a program director for the last 11 years, where I was in charge of the urban leadership training at Fuller Theological Seminary. And my program ended and really was kind of faced with a question of what do I do now as I am hitting this certain age point? And, you know, I had really looked into should I go into actually being a professor in academia, going for my doctorate, you know, that whole world. Should I stay, you know, in some sort of ministry serving capacity or do I do this other element by which I really kind of want to marry the two together? Because I love academic research.

I am, even though not necessarily my grades reflect it, I am a learning, geeky nerd, right. I'm kind of rebellious. So if I don't really like the prof or like the content, then I really don't do my best. I’m such a rebel. But I'm insatiable with the learning, especially in regards to topics that I am really interested in or really care about. And then, you know, I feel that there's such a crucial place for research, in particular research based in academia, but also, you know, usually that kind of research or information gets stuck in academics. And if you don't go to a college or graduate school, you know, some of the information that is so vital to those doing the work in the field and on the ground, they don't get that information. And so one of the things that I loved about the place that I had previously worked at was that it was an institute that really tried to marry the two.

I think, you know, what they are presenting though is more for white, middle-class, evangelical ministries and churches and families, which is totally fine. Whereas my passion and heart is for those people who are serving in marginalized communities, under-resourced communities, underserved communities, underrepresented communities, whether that is what we used to call urban- you know, we haven't found a new, nice little catchy name for that- or, you know, even rural communities, anywhere, you know, people of color communities, where you just, they're not really necessarily in the mainstream and represented. And so where can, how can we create an institute or a learning space by which we're bringing in those who are doing training, those who provide that kind of information and teaching, but doing it for those who are on the ground, you know, whether they're moms, whether they're, you know, in small groups, whether they're your lay leaders or actual paid staff, you know, people who are doing the work, how can we do that?

And so, um, and the reason I call my company The InBetween is because I feel that most of my life that's been the theme. And so it is really reflective, I believe, of what we're kind of using as our tagline that the deepest, most transformational learning happens in the in-between space, which we don't really talk about a lot. In particular, when we see, you know, movies or TV shows, there's so much where we have a starting point of revelation and inspiration where the light bulb goes off, you know, and then we see the conclusion where the person is now fully, you know, understanding of that information, fully healed, fully transformed, but there's so much messiness that happens in the in-between space.

And that's just a really crucial part. You know, I always say this, my spouse and I, we talk about this all the time: they never show the conversations in movies that happens in the car, right. And yet, so much crucial conversation, deep conversations happen from point A to point B in the vehicle or in the whatever motor transportation is happening. And I'm always asking that in movies, when the characters, they start a conversation, then they get out of the car, I'm like, were they just sitting in silence for 45 minutes? Like, what was happening in there? And so, you know, really kind of that idea is where I want it to be where we're gonna, no subject will be taboo.

I just, I'm all about transparency and really uncovering the various different topics that have been not necessarily talked about, in particular in Christian settings. And so how do we, cause there, there's so much hunger there and there's so much desire and need to have these conversations. And so how can we create that space for folks who are deconstructing their faith, for folks who are dismantling, you know, socially, anthropologically, what they have known in their life and what they have normally, quote, unquote normally understood to be the standard. And now they're really processing and deconstructing all of that and dismantling it.

And there's not really space where you could learn from a professional, from someone who is an expert in these subject matters, because most of the time it's, I read a book, I'm in a book club, we're kind of all fumbling around and trying to figure it out, right. And so how can we create these little classroom mini spaces?

So it's not just going to be webinars, which is most of what training institutions or platforms are presenting. And it's very important- I mean, we're going to use those resources because they're needed where one person is teaching and you just listen on the other side- but rather we're wanting to create cohorts slash classroom spaces. Like you're actually going to get homework. You're going to need to do reading. You're going to need to have these conversations. But in regards to specific topics for folks who are what I call urban progressive people like, so you're not really fitting in the mold of evangelical and you're not fitting in the mold of what we call middle-class suburbia, you know, we're trying to fill in those other spaces for folks who don't fit those molds.

Sy Hoekstra: And it sounds like from your concept of what constitutes a leader that your training is very broad.

Irene Cho: It is very broad. Cause I feel, you know, in these, in particular, in these spaces, there are so many who are volunteers, you know, not necessarily paid staff. I just, I think, you know, I'm continually wanting to ask the question of how are we breaking the standardized infrastructure that we have thus far in church, in particular church structures. What have we set up? And those setups don't apply to people who are in marginalized communities. Like most of the leaders who were in our training program were bi-vocational, tri-vocational. Like there's, there's no way, right?

So they volunteer at their church, they have a full-time job, and yet they also are, part-time working, you know, at this other position. And then they have families. They have, you know, they're just juggling so much. And so I used to remember working in an immigrant church for me, in particular, you know, being involved in youth ministry. And at that time, the only youth ministry resources available were people who were white and very full-time paid staff, you know? And so they would have these get togethers or trainings and it would be like on a Wednesday at 10:00 AM and I'm like, at my job because I have to pay bills, and I don't work at my church except Friday through Sunday, right.

Where our immigrant church, we don't have Wednesday night services. We had Friday night services because for Koreans in particular, which was my setting, you know, there's no such thing as midweek service. It's distracting for my children who need to make sure they excel in their SATs because it's Ivy league or bust, right. Because that's what the immigrant dream is. And so, you know, I'd have a full job where I'm working nine to six or whatever, and then where is there capacity or space for me to do student visitations and do all these things that curricula, youth ministry curricula, would say, you know, you should meet with students during this time. And I'm like, okay, but not possible at all.

Sy Hoekstra: During your infinite time that you have.

Irene Cho: Right. Exactly. And, you know, that was me at mid-twenties where I had a plethora of energy. What about leaders who have family? And I was single, I didn't have kids. And so like, how do we address these, you know, address and compensate for leaders, as we call them, who are not necessarily fitting into that mold? So I'm just always trying to think of folks outside of the box that don't fit into what we have thus far deemed as people who are serving.

Suzie Lahoud: Wow, I love that, that emphasis on liminality and marginalization and just the really real and practical perspective that you bring to these spaces. And you just alluded now to your background in youth ministry and so, would you be willing to share just about that transition from the youth ministry that you were doing to, it sounds like your time at Fuller and academia, and then on. What did that, what did those transition periods look like for you and how did you make those decisions to move from one thing to the next? Do you think, in some cases, maybe you should have made those transitions sooner? If we could just kind of dig into those pieces of your story as much as you feel comfortable or feel like it would be helpful to share.

Irene Cho: Yeah, absolutely. Oh, so much. Let's, let’s sit on the couch and pop out, like take out the popcorn, cause I have so many stories to tell.

Jonathan Walton: Chips. Get the chips.

Suzie Lahoud: Yeah. We’ll get Jonathan’s chips.

Irene Cho: [laughs] Oh, lordy… So I stumbled into youth ministry. So I knew I wanted to be serving in some capacity and in, back then, you know, if I'm going to age myself, you know, back in the early nineties, when I received what I believe is a full calling from God to serve in some capacity, that was not my, you know, first choice. I wanted to be a journalist. I wanted to be the next Connie Chung. I was like, “Oh, I'm going to have a penthouse in New York. And I'm going to work for…” you know, at that time it was whatever, ABC news or 60 Minutes that, you know, we didn't have cable news really. And so that was my dream. And God was like, “No, I've got a whole other thing planned for you,” for a year. Which, I took a personality test, and, of course, so much better for where I'm at now. Like I would have been a terrible journalist really. Oh gosh.

So, you know, that was my senior year of college, I switched, or my senior year of high school, I switched out completely like which colleges I wanted to go to. And my advisor put me in Christian education, which is what my major was at that time. And I didn't even know. I, you know, I don't even think they asked me, they had just kind of assigned me that major. And it was perfect because we had a biblical major, we had intercultural studies, and we had Christian education as kind of the three Trinity tri-fold in regards to serving in some form of capacity.

And so I did that and I ended up focusing on youth ministry because my, you know, I wasn't a very elementary school person. That age group doesn't really interest me, which, you know, already breaks the mold because usually Christian women are relegated to children's ministry. I don't, I love infants to four years-old, and then from five, if I could pass off, you know, the kid until the age of 12 then bring them back, that's my, like, that's my whole thing. And so, you know, people think that it's very not the norm to, you know, love middle schoolers because they can be a pain in the behind and they ask, you know, and there's just, it's such a complicated age period where you're growing into your identity and you know, you don't know who you are and you're full of angst and you're full of insecurities. And you're entering into this new space and new world where you're leaving the safety of, you know, elementary school age, where everything is very concrete and very direct and very clear. And now you're moving into this abstract space where you're learning new concepts and it's just a, it's such an angsty time.

And I think because my own time period, when my parents got divorced, when I was nine and we moved from Los Angeles to New York, I moved from a space that was pretty diverse-I didn't even know this at this time- it was pretty diverse. And then moving into a city that was 85% Jewish, very upper middle-class- not even middle-class- very, very wealthy neighborhood. I'm one of four Asian kids, you know, at that time where I'm looking like I'm 10 years-old, when everyone is starting to blossom and grow into their bodily, you know, spaces, I'm not entering into that. And so it was a horrible time and I had very buckteeth and my, I hadn't, I grew into them eventually, I think, you know, and it was just, it was a difficult time period of anger and uncertainty and all of that.

And so for me, I think that's why I really gravitated towards youth ministry, in particular middle school ministry. Because I really wanted to help young people in that age group know that it's going to be okay. And help them really get comfortable in who they are and affirm them and know that their questions and their anger and their emotions and their angstyness and insecurities are all valid, but also that you're going to be okay, right. And so as I entered into youth ministry, I was a die-hard lifer youth ministry person. It was like live, eat, breathe, die youth ministry until, until the end of my days, right. And I, I really committed to that. And even, yeah, now I think, you know, it's still such a huge part of my love and heartbeat, and they're always on the forefront of my mind of the next generation, and what does this all mean?

And so I think, you know, after 13 years of doing nine years of middle school and then four years of high school, transitioning to high school, which was a whole other game changer because, oh my gosh, some of them drive and they can pick each other up. It’s just a whole other game, right. And it, you know, you ask different questions of high schoolers than you do of middle schoolers. I feel like so much of middle school is prevention or you're implanting really good questions and helping them learn to begin to ask questions. And it's so exciting. I tell those who are doing middle school service or, you know, some kind of, in some capacity, that you may not see the fruit of your labor of these questions. And if you do, like if you get that rare light bulb connection moment where it's just flickering and trying and struggling so hard, and then the thought becomes clear to them and they connect the dots, you know, such a hallelujah moment, but it's so rare. But you need to just hold on to that, because if you're doing a good job with middle-schoolers, then you'll see the fruit of that later as they enter into high school and college, right. And middle school is really all about planting seeds to help them grow and learn to solve problems and conflict resolution and all those things that make it so exciting. Whereas high school they're dealing, I think they're starting to really enter into more complex issues and emotions and relationships and all of these things. And so it's just a, it's just such a different animal, high school versus middle school.

And I think, I had a supervisor who, and mentor who, when he hit the age of 32, he was like, “I think I’m ready to kind of leave.” And I think I was 24 at that time. And I was like, “You pansy.” Like, “You trader. You're not like loyal at all.” [laughing] And I remember when I was 31 or 32, I hit the same age and it was at my, the last retreat I led, and I was like looking around and I was like, “Oh yeah, I'm a little tired.” And I, not only was I tired, but I didn't know if I was necessarily bringing the freshness that, you know, I, that I had when I was younger. I, there was a lot more, I needed a lot more sleep. [laughs]

Suzie Lahoud: I feel that.

Irene Cho: Yeah. During the lock-ins where I would just be with the kids all the time, I'm like, “All right, I'm going to go in the office. If there's any problems, knock on my door, but only knock on the door when it's like, the building's on fire and we have to evacuate. Okay.” [all laughing] And I think I hit that moment.

But also, on top of that, the last church that I served at, which I call the church from hell, I, it was a very awful experience. My supervisor was one who didn't believe that women should be serving in ministry outside of children's ministry, that women shouldn't be ordained. It was like two years of horridness just working under that gentleman. I've shared other stories, but you know, the middle school- I was a high school leader- and the middle school pastor and I were talking and there had been, there had been some complications. I had gotten hired full time, which was amazing. It was going to be my first full-time position. And then they had issues in the upstairs, quote unquote, adult ministry area. And so because of politics, they ended up slashing everyone to half-time status if you were still in seminary. And I was like, “I'm a team player, that's fine. Like I have one semester left.” It was a three-unit course. And then I would be done in three months, right. So I was like, “It's fine.”

But in between those three months, my supervisor got hired. And so, you know, I, the middle school pastor and I were talking and he was complaining because he had to work two jobs for his health to get healthcare, to start saving up money, cause he wanted to get married. And I said, “I'm really sorry.” And he was like, “Why are you sorry?” And I, I said, “Because I'm the reason you're not getting a full-time position.” And we had a hundred, each had 110 students. How can you not have a full-time youth leader taking care of 110 students, right? There were complaints that I wasn't doing visitations and all these things. And I'm like, “I just, there's no way. Cause I have to pay bills and you are paying me like $10 an hour for this half-time job,” or whatever. And so I told the middle school pastor, “You know, you just wait. The moment I walk out the door, when I quit, two weeks later you're going to get a full-time offer on the table.”

And you know, I ended up getting fired because I was too progressive. I was too, you know, much of a rebel. I wasn't, according to their words, a team player, and all of these things, cause I was starting to really expand in my, deconstructing my theology of who Jesus is and what ministry actually is. And it really was because I took an exegetical of the gospels class. So I'm like not doing anything unbiblical here. Just asking a lot more questions of what we have deemed as, you know, right, or Jesus-like, which wasn't Jesus-like at all. So, you know, ended up being asked to leave, and lo and behold, two weeks after I was asked to leave the middle school pastor got his full-time offer on the table two weeks later.

Jonathan Walton: Of course he did.

Irene Cho: Of course he did. And so, and it's been only males being hired since then, you know. And so, I think that whole experience, by then, I, from some life stuff that I was asking really hard questions about trauma and pain and suffering and where is God in all of that. I was doing a lot of deconstruction work of what we had been told in the church where it was very much, Jesus will heal all things, cookie cutter, band-aid type of mantras and teachings. And really I was, I was questioning a lot of that. And then this, the whole experience with that part of the church really started, you know, leaving a bad taste in my mouth.

And then on top of that, you know, again, this was the early 2000s and I felt like I was the only one in my church environment asking questions about LGBTQIA folks- you know, back then it was just four letters- and saying, what are we doing as a church? Why are we not doing more to love on these folks and to meet a need, you know, a dire need? And this is before any research that I knew had come out and nobody wanted to touch the, the gay question in any church capacity, right.

My friend, Andrew Marin, who has written Love Is an Orientation, when I met him in 2007, he was saying how he had done research and he, in the city of Chicago, opened up the yellow pages and went line by line to every religious institution asking if their religious leader would meet with him to talk about the gay issue in any- he did Catholic, he did Protestant, he did Jewish tradition- I don't know if he did Muslim at that time. But he, he said nobody would meet with him except for one Jewish rabbi. He was the only one who responded amongst 2,000 leaders that he called in the city of Chicago.

And that's, you know, for me, there was this complete dissatisfaction that we were missing the mark, that we were not doing this. And so there were a lot of questions I started asking and I started wondering, “Is me being a pastor or youth pastor going to be the way to start making changes in ways that needed to be made?” And I think that's, there were so many elements that really started having me, kind of move on from doing direct on the ground ministry. And then I got a position in a nonprofit that was training urban leaders. And that really started opening my eyes that there were so many other ways to really make an impact, right, and really help leaders ask these important questions rather than me just doing my little silo ministry, which is- I don't want to say little like belittling it- but you know, my one, individual, personalized youth ministry group versus how can I start training leaders who are going to make an impact in the lives of these young people?

So then I, from there probably in 2005, 2004, started going into doing leadership training and working with leaders who are working with young people. And then it was really from there kind of continually moving on and moving on. And now I'm here where I want to start my own company, cause I still feel that most of the training institutions are still not at the place where I think a lot of folks are at where I think the church, and I say that as an institution, and leaders who are in the church are unwilling or scared to, for fear of loss of jobs or, you know, all the things in position are afraid to, or unwilling to ask the questions that I believe are, are really crucial, especially for the next generation. So, yeah.

Jonathan Walton: Yeah. So you said a whole lot, and I want to ask you nineteen questions. [Irene laughs] But I'm going to ask you one with like ABC on it, right. So as you're talking about being a youth pastor, being a youth leader, and zeroing in on that particularly, just with the fast-pace that things happen and how quickly young people learn, what do you think young people in toxic church environments can do to start decolonizing their faith and how can youth pastors help? And I, I think I expand that a little bit to be, you know, campus ministers because these kids go home, right. And I wonder what that looks like in a practical way?

Irene Cho: Yeah. Oh, it's such a loaded, great question. You know, for every student or kid in youth ministry, number one, I hope their youth leader is also asking these questions, right. And so A) I think that's such a rarity, cause I know I, from what I have seen of youth ministry world, not a lot of them are asking these questions. I know they have a lot on their plate, you know, and I know they're required to do a lot of things and are juggling a lot. So, you know, that's all great.

And yet, I think there is a very clear dissatisfaction that kids have when they graduate. You know, the Fuller Youth Institute did a research study from their Sticky Faith, what they call their Sticky Faith research, that showed, you know, kids, a majority of kids really liked their youth pastor, but they left when they graduated or they left youth ministry to move on into adulthood.

Most of the responses were, “I never felt like I was known.” “I didn't feel like I really learned.” “I don't, I didn't feel like church was a safe place,” you know. And there were a lot of those. But they really liked the youth pastor. And so the question I have for youth leaders in particular is, is your popularity, is that what you are trying to be- the cool youth leader, you know? Which, I think a lot of times we are told that that's the key to connecting with young people, right. And yet, all of the research directly from young people are saying otherwise. And we see stories where you see authentic older folks connecting because of the genuineness, the authenticity, the willingness to have conversations on difficult topics.

And I, I still have so many relationships with my youth kids who, in particular, who were from that high school ministry, where we have lots of, where I have issues. The kids mend my relationship, I felt were so profound. Like if I had it my way, I would have stayed one more year and concluded and graduated and left with my freshman class who came in, right. And I'm sad that I wasn't able to do that, but I still have such good relationships with a good handful of them. And they, the thing that, you know, and I don't say this bragging about myself, cause I made a lot of mistakes, you know. And I share always one of the reasons I love training leaders is to share my mistakes and to not make the same mistakes I did. But I think one of the things that I am going to brag about that I did really well was to give them a safe space. I share this all the time when I do training. There was- after I got fired, and fired, again, for providing the safe space and not being a dictator and an authoritarian figure to my students and to lay down the law, that I actually respected my kids and said, “We're going to have conversations about this and this learning process. And you growing is not my journey. It's your journey. And I'm here to help you,” right.

So there are two elements. Number one, how do you create a space? And, you know, I would have this thing where, back then in particular, you know, the big topic was smoking. Again, this was the early 2000s, right. And we had a couple of kids who did, you know, marijuana and stuff. I didn't have a lot of kids who were doing like hardcore drugs or anything like that in that youth ministry in particular. Not that it would be any different, I think, in my methodology. So let's take our kids who were smoking. You know, I would, every week, you know, I never ever told them that it was cool to smoke. And yet, somehow that bizarre narrative like kind of came up [Sy laughs] and it was all lies and like slander of me, right. But like every kid knew that I didn't approve and I was very honest. I'm like, “You're going to be impotent. It's going to stunt your growth.” I said it all. [Jonathan laughs] Like there was nothing I wouldn't say at the pulpit to my students, right, of like utilizing and saying, “You should live your life to the fullest in the fullest capacity that you can in enjoyment.” And I'm like, “You're, this is a temporary fix.” And like, you know, all these things. So I was never, I was never shying away from the fact that I disapproved.

But on the other side of that, it is a struggle. It's an addiction. Like I fully get it. My mom and dad were smokers and my mom, I watched her struggle. It took her a really long time to quit smoking. And so every day, every week, you know, that I met with the kids, I would come in and all of the 10, 12 boys in particular, who were smoking, all were very vulnerable with me. And we all knew their journey. So they would come in and I would be like, “How are you doing? How many days has it been?” And they were like, “I f’d up,” you know. And they would cuss in front of me and they would say, “I f’d up, I had a huge fight with my mom yesterday. I was so angry. I can't stand her,” this and that. “And I had to have a smoke.” And I'm like, “That's okay. It's totally understandable. Did you have one today?” And they were like, “No, I didn't. I didn't have time. I got ready. And then I came to church.” I'm like, “So today's day one. Let's start again.” And like, I would high five them and like, I'm going on this journey with them, you know what I mean?

So it's like, you know, we go to retreats and in my previous other ministries that I was, you know, serving in where I wasn't the one making, calling the shots, you know, we would expel students if they got caught smoking. So they would go sneak out into the woods and then like have a cigarette and we would do patrol. And then if they got caught, they would get sent home or whatever, right. And I was like, I'm not going to do it that way. So we would have the rule where obviously you're not allowed to smoke. This is a no-smoking camp or a conference center or campus or whatever. And for those of you who are struggling, you're going to come and talk to me or one of the counselors, and we will drive you off the property. And, you know, we will, we are going to be with you if you're really struggling, but we really, really challenge you to try to take this time to make it a detox weekend and like, you know, do all of that.

And I had a volunteer come up to me because this was so unconventional. And they were, they were disapproving. And they, and I said, “Look, is it better for me to have them repress and hide and sneak out and then they cause a forest fire and all these things happen? Or is it better that they are able to journey with me and know that I am this safe space for them where I know they're not imperfect [sic]? They know that I'm not imperfect [sic], but we're doing this journey together to try to be more Jesus-like and to live the best life that we can live, you know, and we're, I'm cheerleading them on and encouraging them without any compromise of what the bottom line is. The bottom line is stop smoking. The bottom line is stop gossiping. The bottom line is stop bullying,” you know. All these things, right.

And I had to talk with this volunteer through and they really processed it and started to see what relational ministry actually was doing, how effective it was like that kids were really desiring to come to church and it wasn't about the games and it wasn't about the pizza. It was about the fact that they were having a space where they're getting challenged, where they're being asked hard questions. They weren't getting let off the hook, you know, and yet they really loved it. You know what I mean?

So after I get fired, I'm watching Oprah. It's a repeat, you know, episode. It's one in the morning. I'm in bed and there was this episode where a girl- she's beautiful. I think she was Mexican American. Her name is Jennifer and her story- I think you can find, I forget her last name- she was a sophomore in college and she went out with two of her girlfriends to a party, a college party. And as they're waiting at the stoplight, at the red light, a high schooler, junior in high school, was driving home drunk from a party and slammed into them. Cars caught on fire and her friends died and she was burned with third and fourth degree burns. And so he went to prison for involuntary manslaughter. And so, right, prime of his life. He’s doing the SATs. He’s about to go, like do college applications, just all of the hopefulness. And he is now in jail.

So she comes on and she has no eyelids. Her fingers are all melted. Her father has to dress her every day. Her father has to put drops in her eyes every 30 minutes cause she doesn't blink. There's not a dry eye anywhere. And this girl is just so filled with life and hope and it's so powerful and so amazing. And, you know, the cause that she's now trying to, you know, educate people on, about not drunk driving, et cetera. And the mom of the son is on the show, because they obviously can't film him as a minor, and she comes out and she is there to apologize. Cause this is the first time they're meeting in person. And she can't get through it. And she is just sobbing, trying to apologize for what her son did.

And Oprah asks her, “What do you want to tell every parent in the world as they see this? What do you wish to share that you have learned through all of this?” And she says- and I will never forget this- “I raised my son in a black-and-white world, a world of do's and don'ts, and I just wish I could have gone back and said to him, ‘I don't approve of you drinking. But if you find yourself in a situation that you have compromised in, give me a call. You won't get grounded. We'll figure it out together. I want you to be safe.’” And she was like, “Your kids are going to drink. Your kids are gonna make decisions that are not okay. And the question is, do they know that you are their backup plan, that you are the plan, that you are the safe space for them to call?” And I was screaming in my room, pointing at the camera, like, or at the TV, just, just screaming at the top of my lungs, “That's it! That's the gospel right there. That's Jesus fully in a nutshell,” right.

And I wish all leaders in whatever, not even just in Christian tradition, in all traditions, like that is who we are trying to emulate. That's the empathy that Jesus calls us to, right. This is the molds that he breaks. It's not about the fact that he broke sabbatical or, you know, that Sabbath, and that he healed on that day. He's talking about the principle of empathy, right? He's, he and the religious leaders at that time, just, they cannot, they cannot get out of that mold of do's and don'ts of, of what, you know, Dallas Willard calls, the gospel of sin management and it's all of that that I just wish leaders would understand.

It's not about you instilling, and here goes my second point… So, number one, how can you create safe spaces for young people? Not because you're compromising on what you believe is right or wrong, but that your journey, so that they can know they can ask these hard questions without somebody jumping down their throats, without somebody attacking them, without making them feel like you're a horrible Christian because they're doubting their faith or asking questions that aren't fitting in the little like, you know, square box that we're trying to squeeze evangelical God in. You know, all these things where trauma and suffering, if I have been raped, which is my story, by my senior pastor, like, where was God? Like these difficult questions that can't be wrapped up in a nice little, 15-, 20-minute sermon, right? How do you journey that students would actually know that you are the person that can pick up the phone at 2:00 AM when they find themselves at a party and they don't want to be there anymore? Are you the person that they're going to call or are they going to be like, my pastor can never know about this because I will get kicked out of youth group, right? Like, how are we doing that?

Which leads to my second point of like, you're not here in actuality to help build Bible quiz champions, where they can regurgitate, you know, like all of their biblical knowledge. It's great. Of course, we need to know the Bible. Of course, we need to understand scripture because scripture is how we understand God's heart, right. We understand God's purpose and God's vision and God's desire for us as humans, for all of humanity. So I'm not saying ignore the Bible and chuck it out the door.

I am a Bible nerd. I geek out to Bible stuff, right. So like, but are you creating people who are able to regurgitate information or you are helping mold people to be transformed in their lives? And that means providing more questions than answers. Again, referring back to my friend, Andy Marin, he said he ended up meeting in his research process, meeting a gentleman who his whole doctoral study was on open-ended questions. Which, my friend was like, how did he get funding for that? I don't even know.

But as he met him, he was so fascinated by this concept of open-ended questions versus close-ended questions, right. Which is, “What is the weather today?” “The weather is 65 degrees.” That's a close-ended question. “Do you like bananas?” That's a close-ended question, right. And in this fascinating, in this research of the, again, the LGBTQI issue, you know, the question of, “If I'm gay, will I go to hell?” that's a closed-ended question, right. And so he went through all four gospels and line by line. He said, Jesus never answered a close-ended question that the religious leaders gave him with a closed-ended answer. He always responded back from their close-ended question with an open-ended question. He never answered the question because he knew it was a trap.

He knew it was just to confirm their bias or their assumption of you, right. Which is usually the purpose of a close-ended question. And so he always responded back with an open-ended question. And the only time he actually answered was when he was at the end of his ministry, ready to face his death and Pontius Pilate asks him, “Are you the man who they say that you are?” And he says, “I am who they say that I am.” And he answers the question, right.

And so we need to be helping these little humans learn how to ask more questions, how to ask better questions of themselves, of their families, of their lives, of their friends, of their communities, of the systems of government, of like all the things, right. And so, and, you know, I intuitively started doing that and I think because my mom raised me that way. And so with all the research that continually comes out, I just go home back to my mom, and I'm like, “Job well done, woman, for not having any like resources for how to, you know, raise a, you know, an insightful human being.” I just always high five her. She was like, “Okay.” Cause she was like doing that. And my students would be constantly frustrated with me because they would ask me a question and I would throw back a question at them. And this was, again, before I even knew that I was doing the right thing, right, or being Jesus-like. And so, and they would get so frustrated because they're like, “Just give me the answer,” you know, “Pastor Irene.” And I'm like, “No, that's not my job.”

As you said, we're not with them all the time. So my job isn't to make sure they can checkmark all the little boxes, because they're going to go to college and then life, even more life stuff, shtuff is going to happen to them. And it's going to have them ask even bigger questions, which was one of the things that these kids in the Sticky Faith research was saying- they didn't feel that their church prepared them for life. Their church did not prepare them for these bigger questions. And that was a thing. Like Steve Jobs in his biography, right, was one of the things when he was 13 years-old, asked his priest, as he saw a Time cover magazine about Africa and poverty and AIDS. And he was like, “Where is God in all of this suffering?” And his priest told him, “You don't need to worry about that. That's not a question that, you know, you have to bother with.” And I'm like, “Why would you tell that to this 13 year-old, who has these huge, gigantic, metaphysical questions about life and suffering and God?”

And, you know, of course we want to help them deepen their questions. Not necessarily answer, because how do we have an answer for where God is? Like, of course we don't have answers. That's the whole point of the book of Job, right? The point of the book of Job is his three friends tried to answer that question, “Where is God? Why am I suffering?” And they got punished because they were being know-it-alls and arrogant and conceited and prideful that they could define God and define this meta-question of suffering in the world, right. And what God wants us to do is sit with people and say, “I don't know the answers, and yes, it sucks, but I'm here with you. Let's figure this out.” Because we do know from life and from research, from wisdom, healing is going to come, right. That's the Sunday. Friday is here and Sunday’s coming around the corner, right.

The promise is that there will be healing, not the promise that we're going to know why this happened. I don't know why I was raped to this day. When I meet the Lord, I hope one day, I will, somehow, maybe, know the whole divine Providence for why this terrible thing was again, you know, allowed to happen or did happen or, you know, whatever the words we want to use semantically to describe it.

But like, in my finite humanity right now, all I know is that I have grown from it. I have grown wiser from it. I have grown stronger from it. I'm more empathetic because of it. I have more information about trauma and healing because of it. All the things that the Bible promises us actually happens. Not this lie that evangelicalism has told us where Jesus is going to make it all better. No, it absolutely did not make it better. Like I still get triggered. When the Me Too movement started happening, like it was all of my wounds and scars that were fully healed and there are scar, like wound markings, but not bleeding, happening there. You could feel the tingling, you know what I mean? Like all the triggers are just under the surface.

And so do we like wish that we wouldn't have to live in a painful world? Of course we want to live in utopia, but this is the world that we live in and we hurt one another. And there are systems and structures in place that are hurtful and harmful and toxic and all of these things. So your job as a leader is not to help them checkmark boxes. Your job as a leader is to prepare them to know BS and horrible things are coming down the pipeline because that's life and nobody is, you know, immune to pain. Nobody is immune to suffering. And the question is, are we helping them know how to have the tools to be prepared for that, right? And so I would say those are the two-fold number one for leaders.

And then for young people, you know, as I counsel, continually counsel, young people who are so traumatized and so hurt by what they've experienced at the church, in the church, by church leaders, I just would sit with them and say, “I know, and I'm with you. And it sucks. And people suck. And I'm really sorry. And how can, how can we talk about it, and share about it, and how can we learn, and how can I be there for you? In what ways, you know, can I be a shoulder for you to cry on, a body that you can lean on, a spirit that can give you hope in the midst of a time period when you might not see any hope at all whatsoever?” But not in a toxic positive kind of way, but a very realistic, you know, “I've been through, I've been through a lot. And so let me be a beacon to know you're going to be okay. Like I'm with you. Like you're not alone in this journey,” right. And I think that's the best we can do because at the end of the day, each person in community needs to find their path of healing, needs to find their journey for what that looks like.

And everybody is different. Some people are going to hunker down and really kind of like action their way through. Other people are going to have to really sit in their emotions and dissect and understand it and do all of that, you know. And other people are going to have to confront and, you know, do other ways by which, you know, they're going to find healing through justice means, right. So everybody's different. And we have to allow everybody to go at their pace and to have their process, I think. And so I think just empathetically being with people is the most important.

Jonathan Walton: Thank you for sharing all of that.

Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, oh my God.

Jonathan Walton: Because, particularly because I think, one, like exegesis is important too. Like I think you, you did not answer the question in such a way that gives us more information, but you answered the question in a way that invites us to the feet of Jesus, which is reflected in you because you're made in his image. And so I appreciate that. And I'm grateful for you allowing us to know you and hopefully, if we do the work, to know God and ourselves better as well.

Irene Cho: Yeah. You know, I share this a lot. I think my mom, one of the things that I, I really embody from her teaching, she used to say to me- because sometimes when I was like 12 or 13 and she would share about her divorce and like processing and stuff [laughs] I feel like, I don't know if I'm the right age, you know, to necessarily be listening to all of this. But a lot of it, I mean, she never did it in a way that was like unloading on me, but more of like teaching me. And she would say to me all the time, “If you could learn at 30 what I had to learn at 40, and I could save you ten years so that you are wiser and you could do so much more with your life because you have those ten years back, then my job as a mom is done,” right.

And I feel that a lot when I do leadership training. Like I'm not here to make myself puffed up or look good. If I can take the pains and mistakes that I have experienced in life and relay that wisdom, what I've learned and grown from, in an empathetic way to folks so that you, as a leader, could make one mistake the way I made a mistake and learn from it rather than what I did, which was ten mistakes, you know?

And like, if you could learn from this one mistake and not get fired, and leave on your own terms, right, and do it in this way then my job is done as a trainer. My job is done as, you know, somebody to provide that to you so that you could do what I couldn’t do. Which is the whole point of Jesus saying, “You're going to do greater things than I am,” right. Like isn't that what we want to continually spread is that the next generation takes off with more knowledge, more information, more empathy, more wisdom, and more insight, and more questions than we had, you know, as leaders at their age, right?

And so even if that means that they're going to take off and write the book and get the book contract, and I didn't get it, then it's okay. Like my ego and my pride and my fame and my position, it doesn't matter. God didn't give me all of this so that I could have a platform. It was so that I could serve in any capacity, way, shape, or form so that there are others who can continually expand the kingdom in a way by which the love of Jesus and the beauty of who Jesus is, is spread, you know, and not in a proselytizing, corny kind of way.

Jonathan Walton: Amen.

Sy Hoekstra: So first of all, I have, I just want to say I have like a very direct, specific example of what you were talking about before of getting kids to talk, to ask bigger questions.

Irene Cho: Yeah.

Sy Hoekstra: A big question that I had before I was deciding whether or not I wanted to, like commit myself to Jesus was I, I just did not like the idea of hell and I didn't like the idea that God had created, you know, a universe in which, the, you know, billions of people or whatever would, would suffer forever and he knew that that was going to happen when he created it. And we believe that he's perfect. So he didn't need us. And like all the, you know, it just didn't, it seemed kind of needless and cruel.

And it was, it was somebody in my youth ministry, a volunteer actually, a 19 year-old volunteer who I'm still friends with, who kind of pointed me to like, whatever problems you have with that, that's actually a less important or compelling question than the question of why did God make everything, knowing that he would have to suffer through all that, right? Like knowing that he was going to the cross, knowing that he was going to experience like everything that we experience as people. And so then, like from there, you can say, well, whatever he's doing with creation, you can trust him, right? Like it's a point of trust. It's a point of authenticity and I, I dunno, I just, you took me back there very pointedly to a specific time where someone getting me to ask a different question, getting me to ask a different question led directly to me, like deciding to follow Jesus.

Irene Cho: Yeah. And it's those things like, and I would do that. I would share my understanding and my belief, but I would also always ask bigger questions. Like I believe in that, but there are still going to be questions by which, you know, is this a necessity? There are people who strongly believe in God and don't believe in hell at all. Like, and that's okay. I always would tell students, go in the rabbit hole, do the journey, but have like, have a tie, have an anchor because you know, I've done the rabbit hole trail. And so I would, I would share with them like, bounce these questions off with somebody who's safe, bounce these questions off, as you're asking, like, you know, ask all the questions that you need because there are going to be answers and there aren't going to be answers and it might lead you to more questions.

And that's okay. Like God can handle, God can handle all the questions that you have. And you may not end up finding answers and all of these things, but, you know, try to make sure you don't forget where home base is, you know, in whatever that looks like for you. And not to say, like abandoning your faith is bad. It's to say, you know, I always share with students, like leaving faith out of anger or, or spite isn't necessarily a healing process, right. And I don't say this to them, but like Bill Maher is an example. Obviously the man has been very traumatized by his Catholic upbringing and he has not done therapy, right.

Jonathan Walton: Slightly, slightly.

Irene Cho: And he's, and it, it's very telling of that. And it's not to say his anger is not legitimate. I fully legitimize it and acknowledge it and respect and support it, right. It's just, as you are angry because of pain that you've experienced, understand and know that that's not the be all end all.

And that's the other thing with adolescents that I love doing is trying to increase their world, because their world is their family, their high school life, their friends, like their little community, you know. And especially with urban kids too, because of capacity and resource, lack of resources, like they don't leave their little, their little space, right. They don't get on the bus and cross over the freeway or like go to… Like some urban kids, like when they get on a plane at the age of 17, it's the first time they've ever gotten on a plane or on a train or like going to another state. So you have these other ministries or organizations, nonprofits that like take them out camping, take them out to the wilderness, right. Because it's, it's continually expanding their world. And so they're very savvy, street savvy a lot of times, but they, their world is still small, right. And same with adolescents who are in, you know, middle-class world. That's their, that's their capacity.

And so how do we help continually have their world and universe expanded? Like they think their mom, like even asking questions about their parents' relationship. Like their mom is on them all the time and we have these like anger issues and I'm like, my job here is to help them ask questions like, well, why is your mom on you like that? What's happening? Are they having money problems? Are they having marital problems? Are they like really worried about something? Are they disappointed in you? Like asking them these questions, because when you're 16 years-old and you're really angry and you don't necessarily have the vocabulary or the cognitive understanding, psychological cognitive understanding, then they're like, “I don't know if my parents are having marital problems,” or maybe they do, but they don't know how to put that into words, right.

And I remember, I love when I have students at, you know, I had one youth pastor, he said, “I love going to kids, visiting kids' homes for dinner, and then asking their parents how they met and why they got married because the kids are like, ‘Oh my God, my parents are like human! They have like love relationships.’” And they never, they never know any of those things, right.

There was another group. We had a cohort in the previous org that I worked at, where we had a hundred leaders in the room and we asked them how many of them knew their own parents' faith journey, faith story, right? Or come to faith journey. 0% of them raised their hands. These are youth leaders! And it's like, okay, how are we not sharing or asking kids to ask their parents about their faith journey, right?

And it's just like expanding their worlds in all of those little ways and big ways that I think we need to do as leaders and people who interact with young people. Like I just continually hear from people, “Nobody has ever asked me those questions,” right. And that tickles my heart because now I have incepted in your mind these questions, and I hope you go home from this conversation you and I have had where you are curious and hungry to know, and like wondering, right. Let's have kids grow up as curious people wanting to know more. And that means allowing them to ask these really difficult questions, even though we may not have all the answers.

And I think kids really appreciate it when I say to them, “That's an excellent question. I fully don't have an answer for that. I still don't know why there's suffering in the world. And that's one of the first questions I'm going to ask God when I meet God.” And that's so reassuring for them, you know what I mean? They're like, “Oh, my youth pastor is,” you would think like, I know a lot of leaders are worried and they're like, “Oh, I have to have all the answers.” No, you so totally do not. And what it does is… and you can even invite them and be like, “Hey, let's read this book together.” And like, “Let's ask these questions together because I also don't know.” And what a great opportunity that is.

Sy Hoekstra: So switching gears a little bit, I think, um, you talk a lot about leaders being people who have to constantly deal with or steward the trauma of their communities. Yeah, so I used to be a public defender in the child welfare system, like working with parents who were, who were caught up in the system. And the, just canyon of difference between what I was doing every day with mostly non-Christian colleagues and, you know, like helping people, like do whatever you can to help people try and like shoulder the burden of a system like that and just like anything that was going on at church was so wide and so noticeable. And, you know, not just like my own church, I mean, like anything that's happening in The Church, you know, it just felt like, so, I dunno, like why, why aren't we here? Why aren't we doing this?

And could you just give us a couple of ideas or examples of what practically it looks like for people to help, for leaders, Christian leaders, to help the communities, you know, steward trauma well? And maybe in particular touch on, you know, when we have all the videos of police brutality going around all the time and we have the Me Too movement that you've already brought up, there's just kind of so much of it in the air. So what does that look like for leaders to help in that way?

Irene Cho: Yeah. We could do a whole other episode on this.

Jonathan Walton: We could.

Irene Cho: You know, I think first of all, number one, I want to validate it is exhausting because like helping and walking with people, you're, you have your own stuff that you deal with, right. And then to walk alongside a community that may never really see an end to the struggles is, is so exhausting. And so we talk about this a lot. Self-care is one of the most crucial practices for you as a leader when you are engaging with communities of trauma, or communities with trauma.

So we talk about this a lot in urban contexts, by which, you know, we feel this burden and this passion and this obligation to be the savior of that community and of those people. And not in a vindictive kind of way, right? It's very, the intention and the desire I think is, is very warranted, is very, is very good, but two folds can happen. You can burn yourself out from the savior complex, or you can become an egomaniac, right, and a complete narcissist. Because I, one of the things, I have this topic that I want to train on, which is “The Four Narcissists” that, or maybe write a book on it, you know, talking about the four narcissists that we have to deal within in nonprofit world is, you know,

Sy Hoekstra: Oh my gosh! [laughs]

Irene Cho: the philanthropical narcissist, which is, you know, a lot of folks go into nonprofit world or, you know, engaging in urban contexts, et cetera, with this very savior thing. And they want to become the savior of that community. And it's a very true thing that we have to deal with. But it's, it's all gift wrapped in philanthropy. It's all gift wrapped in giving. It's all gift wrapped in serving. So you don't really understand that the underlying intention is narcissism in there, right.

Sy Hoekstra: And even if you do, you have to deal with those people because they're giving you the money.

Irene Cho: Exactly. And not even the money, but even the leaders, right. So, and we see this right now with superstar pastors falling and all of that. And so, so you know, either that, or you completely burn out and you have no capacity left whatsoever. So number one, you know, take care of yourself, finding rhythms that are good. I know the work is so plentiful. The work is so overwhelming. The work and the need is just like suffocating. You, you have to find those spaces by which you can unplug, even in the city, unplug in the chaos, and go away for just a time period. It's there, that time is there. Jesus was bombarded by hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people on a daily basis. And yet found time and capacity to go recover and recuperate and like rejuvenate himself, right. So let's model that. Let's model after who we are trying to model after and really do self-care.

Number two, we have to become knowledgeable. I think, you know, this idea in the church that therapy and psychology and anthropology and sociology are against God, that all of those scientific understandings are not faithful, the stigma of that continually needs to be dismantled. And like, there's so much information that is needed to be conveyed for how to address the way we communicate, the way we resolve conflict, the way we take action, you know, civil action against the systems and structures. And we need, we need people to tie those things together because we have the activists, we have the people, the leaders who are doing nonprofit work, you know, leading on the ground. We have the people, you know, who are fertilizing, who are supposed to keep the peace of the community. And we do not have the tools really to helpfully, holistically, intersect and intertwine and engage all of the different schools of thought and practices that would help alleviate that, right.

And so, and I know that's really complex. There's so many levels. I mean, I just said a huge mouthful and there's like a monolith of stuff by which we can address when talking about like all of these things. But as one leader who's engaging, you know, equip yourself with better tools for understanding how to psychologically like help people and yourself get better, right. And we could do it in lay terminologies. There's books out there, there's video out there. There are, there are people who are willing to train, you know, others.

I had a friend, they do government grants where they help with that. And so they had a whole program where they went into various lower income communities and helped with marital counseling. And in like the, you know, stories that came out of these families who would not have access to therapy and marital counseling who went through these classes and training, and they're like, “Not only is this helping our marriage, but it is helping us learn how to be better parents now,” because they are having tools to learn how to ask better questions, tools to learn how to do conflict management and deescalate themselves and deescalate with their kids, right.

And these are all these things by which these communities, we need to provide these tools. And so you, as a leader, again, you're not there to save them. That's their journey. You're there to provide those tools, to provide that information, to provide that education so that those families are going to leave that two-hour session with you and start to implement that in their homes.

Like you're not going to be with them all the time, right. And so how can we continually do that as leaders and bring in experts, bring in people, learn how to, and this is the third thing, learn how to collaborate together. Again, removing the savior complex. You cannot be all things to all people. Even Superman has his kryptonite, right?

Like and, like we see it. The Justice League is better. Granted, I know Snyder's new versions. Like obviously it seems like they don't need anybody except for Superman, but really that's not true. In actuality, I like the Avengers model better because you know, they, and I say this as a previous hardcore DC fan, you know, like we see the teamwork happening and we need to understand that.

I am a Jack of all trades. I'm very talented in a lot of things, but I am not talented and capable in a lot of other different areas. And I need to admit to that and I need to own that and I need to be like, “Experts come in and like help with this community,” right. And let's do this thing together and not even bring an expert there, but there might be experts within your own community that you did not know that were there, right. And so we talk about this a lot in urban trainings of like, what are the assets that already exist in your communities and how can you collaborate and expand on that?

And so, you know, I think the trauma element is so, it's such a gigantic animal. And there's, it's like, you know, when I was going to my acupuncturist, when I got rheumatoid arthritis, it was like six, four weeks into the session, I think. And he was like, “Okay, we're starting to finally get to the place where we could now begin to actually address your illness,” because there were so many other parts that were contributing to my illness, right? And it's like, yes, you have cancer. And yes, we have to address that with chemo or radiation or whatever, but there's the lifestyle. There is the stress factor. There are all of these elements that contribute to that. The infrastructure of food processing in the United States of America, right? Like things that are in our capacity to change, things that are outside of our capacity to change, things that take longer for us to address, things that are immediate that we need to address.

And I think it's really important as leaders to understand what are the assets in your community so that we could collaborate together because there are so many levels to address and attack and to, you know, deal with that can happen all at the same time if we are being an Avengers team, not just depending on Superman. There, I redeemed that analogy. [laughs]

Suzie Lahoud: Yeah. Thank you, Irene, for just all of the things that you touched on and, yeah, no, I just resonate when you were talking about looking at the assets in your community, it just reminded me a lot of the work that my husband and I were involved in in Lebanon with the refugee population there. And one of the important things that I feel like we learned was just how, when you talk about trauma in communities, one of the most healing things for a community is to be involved in their own healing and to be able to be a part of that, that reconstruction process, on the personal and interpersonal level, on the communal level, and to be able to help rebuild their own lives and to be able to contribute because they have so much to give. And so moving away from that just sort of giver/receiver dichotomy.

And, so yeah, I think all I really want to say is just amen to what you shared. There's so much wisdom to that and, yeah, and just, I love how I feel like one of the themes that you're sharing is just seeing people as whole people and embracing them in their humanity and, you know, all being able to move towards transformative work together. So, yeah, again, just thank you for coming on the show and for sharing all of that.

Irene Cho: Thank you. All the snaps to what you just shared.

Sy Hoekstra: I'd second that. This has been fantastic. We really appreciate all the time. And just before we go, what do you want people to see? Where do you want them to follow you?

Irene Cho: Um, everything on my social is Irene M, as in Michelle, Cho. I'm probably the most active on Twitter, but I'm also the most abrasive on Twitter. [laughs] And then I have more, I'm more insightful on Facebook, and then some insightful stuff on Instagram, but a little bit more fun stuff. And then, unless, you know, again, another terrible thing happens then I'm like all over the, all over the justice stuff, but usually it's more fun. And then I'm on TikTok, but I don't do TikTok. I'm, I'm a lurker on TikTok, right.

Suzie Lahoud: I'm so impressed that you're on TikTok though. I haven't, I haven't reached that level yet of engagement.

Jonathan Walton: Yeah, I’m geriatric. I can’t do it.

Sy Hoekstra: I was gonna say, we’re too old for TikTok.

Irene Cho: I do not participate at all whatsoever. I think I have one video on there cause my husband thought it was hilarious when I got some dental surgery and I sounded ridiculous. [all laugh]

And then the website is FindingTheInBetween.com because I could not, at the moment, get The InBetween, but I'm hoping to somehow get that later. And if you want to follow The InBetween, everything on social is @TheInBtw, so between, so @TheInBtw on Twitter, on Facebook, you can join, you know, follow the page. And, but the website is Finding The InBetween for now. And so I have some blog entries on there and hopefully, I'm in the works right now to start building the whole platform to create classes that you could sign up for. We have a certificate that we're going to be launching out at the end of August for the fall. So if you are interested in getting a one-year urban training from some of the top four, you know, leaders on the ground who are doing the work, they're phenomenal. We'll be talking about different subjects of, you know, the theology and philosophy of urban ministry, holistic understanding of you as an urban leader, talking about trauma and self-care in there in particular, abuse, you know, healing, all of those things. And then leadership management is the fourth course. And then the fifth is community development and engagement.

So if you want to do that it's only $1,000 dollars. We used to do this program in my old job, and it was an $8,000 course. And we're basically bringing it down because it's predominantly online and you won't be meeting in a classroom officially like face-to-face physically, but you'll get all of the learning, all of the training, and it'll be only a year versus a two-year program. So we figured this is a launch pilot. So the price will probably go up after this launch, you know, when we do run the next cohort. So take advantage of it if you would like and sign up on the website.

Sy Hoekstra: Yes, absolutely. We encourage that. Irene Cho, thank you so much for being with us today.

Irene Cho: Thanks for having me. Thanks for letting me ramble on. [laughs]

Jonathan Walton: Thank you so much.

[“Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in briefly, then fades out.] 

Sy Hoekstra: Thank you so much for listening. Please follow us on social media, @KTFPress on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter, and tell your friends about us, please. We would really appreciate it. Word of mouth is a great way to support the show.

Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra. Our podcast art is by Jacqueline Tam, and we will see you all next week.

[“Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades back in. Lyrics: “Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” Song fades out.]  

Sy Hoekstra: Irene Cho, welcome to Shake the Dust. Thank you so much for being with u-yus today.

Irene Cho: Thank you for having me.

Sy Hoekstra: Wow. Okay, no, I messed up literally the first line. [Irene laughs]

Jonathan Walton: Go back please. [Suzie chuckles]

Sy Hoekstra: I will try that again…

This week, the team talks with pastor and disability advocate Lamar Hardwick about his book, Disability and the Church; his experience as an autistic pastor; disability in the Black church; how our fear of disabilities is connected to the fall of creation; the implications of Jesus’ eternal wounds for disabled people; his theology of diversity; and a lot more.  

Shake the Dust is a podcast of KTF Press. Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Find transcripts of this show, sign up for our free mailing list, and subscribe to our blog at KTFPress.com. 

Hosts:  

Jonathan Walton – follow him on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter.  

Suzie Lahoud – follow her on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter.  

Sy Hoekstra – follow him on Twitter.  

Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra – listen to the whole song on Spotify. 

Our podcast art is by Jacqueline Tam – follow her and see her other work on Instagram.  

Shake the Dust is produced and edited by Sy Hoekstra. 

Questions about anything you heard on the show? Write to [email protected] and we may answer your question on a future episode. 

Transcript

[00:00:00] Lamar Hardwick: And here's the thing, you mentioned COVID and I'll say this: when accessibility became an everybody issue, we saw the church get really creative didn't we? We saw it come up with money to do all sorts of things, right. And I tweeted about that. Like the disability community is watching. What you're saying is it could have been done all along.

[The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/That it will roll in abundance/ And that you’re building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.]   

Suzie Lahoud: Welcome to Shake the Dust, leaving colonized faith for the Kingdom of God, a podcast of KTF Press. I'm Suzie Lahoud here with Jonathan Walton and Sy Hoekstra.

Sy Hoekstra: Everyone, I am so excited. Today we have an interview with Dr. Lamar Hardwick. He is a graduate of Candler School of Theology and has a DMin from Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary. He is the lead pastor at Tri-Cities Church in East Point, Georgia, and is the author of a few books, most [00:01:00] recently, Disability and the Church: A Vision for Diversity and Inclusion.

Now Dr. Hardwick also has autism spectrum disorder and is known online as the autism pastor. He provides workshops, seminars, and consultations for local churches and faith-based organizations on how to create welcoming environments for people with autism. He also provides mentoring services to teenagers and young people on the spectrum.

We talk to him today about his book, Disability and the Church; his personal story of living as an autistic pastor; what our fear of disabilities teaches us about ourselves and our faith; his theology of diversity; God's disabilities- you heard that correctly- and so much more.

Jonathan Walton: Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to our podcast today. Don't forget to subscribe to our blog at www.ktfpress.com to support the show, receive our weekly newsletter and resources to help you leave colonized faith for the Kingdom of God, and get access to bonus episodes of the show and writing from the three of us. This also helps us support other projects we're working [00:02:00] on like future books for wonderful authors that are worthy of your attention.

If you aren't in a position to do that, please take a moment to subscribe to the podcast on your favorite podcast app. You could also follow us on social media @KTFPress on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter. And tell your friends about us, rate and review us wherever you listen to podcasts. Thank you so much for your support!  

Suzie Lahoud: Without further ado, here's our interview with Dr. Lamar Hardwick…

[“Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in briefly, then fades out.] 

[00:00:00] Sy Hoekstra: Pastor Lamar Hardwick, thank you so much for joining us on Shake the Dust today!

Lamar Hardwick: Well, thanks for having me. It's an honor.

Sy Hoekstra: It’s an honor for us to have you here, and I also know that you're going through a lot at the moment. You've been sort of public about you're going through chemotherapy, there was a tornado came through your neighborhood recently… I know there's just a whole lot and that's just the public stuff that we know about. So we really appreciate you taking the time to be here right now. And I know this book tour is also probably busy, so just thank you, first of all, from the bottom of our hearts for being here.

So, you know, we've talked a little about you and your book already in the intro, but I just wanted to start off by saying, or by getting a bit of your story to the listeners. So you were diagnosed at age 36 with what we would now call autism spectrum disorder- I think it was Asperger's when you were diagnosed. And can you just talk to us a little bit about [00:01:00] why that diagnosis came so late in life, why it happened when it did, and what that was like for you?

Lamar Hardwick: Sure. So I think one of the ways I explain it best over the years when people ask that question is, you know, one, I was born in ‘78, so right around the age of, you know, 18 months to two years- would have been, you know, ‘79/ ’80- there really wasn't a lot of education as far as what we know now about autism. And then, you know, in those days there was still very much the stigma of, “Oh, boys develop slower than girls,” you know, those types of things. And so a lot of that, attribute to that.

Also, and I think I talk about this in the book, I was raised in a military family. So we moved just about [00:02:00] every three years. So, you know, in reflecting with the therapist, the psychologist, that diagnosed me, you know, no one really expected me to adjust well, especially socially, because we're always moving. And so part of that time, especially in my younger years, was spent actually living overseas. We lived in Germany and so different language, different culture, you know, different country.

And so people really didn't expect me to adjust well, they just sort of did the best they could with me. And so she believes a lot of that masked what were obvious signs, but because of the circumstances of our family traveling all the time and some of the lack of education and many people, you know, like me have all experienced that too that's around my age or older where we just didn't know. And then, you know, I was verbal, although my mom's said that there were times where I [00:03:00] would not talk. And I don't know if it's because I couldn't or I wouldn't- that part of my developmental history is a little bit of a mystery. Like no one can actually pinpoint when I started talking, they just knew that I didn't talk a lot.

And my mom also recorded, you know, not actually, having to quit working because she couldn't leave me with anyone. I would cry for six, seven hours at a time. And so that's one of the reasons why she couldn't work.

Sy Hoekstra: Gosh.

Lamar Hardwick: So yeah, there were a lot of things that probably, in this sort of modern era of understanding of autism, would have gotten me diagnosed in a proper time.

Honestly, some of it has to do with what continues to be diagnostic disparities between white children and African-American and Latino children. There's still African-Americans getting diagnosed sometimes two years later than average. Some of that [00:04:00] has changed, but I can imagine, you know, back in the late seventies/ early eighties, it was probably even more of an issue with, um… So there were many factors for that that, you know, I could talk about at another time, but I also suspect that had a lot to do with it is that it just wasn't something that was commonly talked about in the African-American community. So there wasn’t access to resources and the knowledge to know what to look for, and, you know, when you should be seeking some type of assistance in getting your child diagnosed.

So it was kind of a perfect storm of things that I think stopped me from being diagnosed at an age that most children would have been diagnosed at.

Sy Hoekstra: What was it like for you then receiving that diagnosis?

Lamar Hardwick: Yeah, so, I mean, I was 36 at the time. So it's almost been seven years. So the beginning of it was a relief actually. [00:05:00] I, for the first time, felt human, because I had been told my whole life about the way that I should behave and the ways I should conform and the things that I should do, and not really being able to ever achieve those behaviors that I was told I should display. So you grow up like that. You feel very strange. A lot of times I tell people how the best way I can describe my experience is it felt like the world was an inside joke that I didn't get. And it didn't matter how hard I tried, I just didn't understand a lot of things that people did. I did fake a lot of things and I pretended to understand a lot of things and I mimicked a lot of behavior that I saw other people do just because I didn't know what to do to fit in, but I knew what not to do to, to stand out. And so I just pretended to [00:06:00] be like all the other kids that I saw around me.

But being diagnosed helped me to feel a lot more human; that I wasn't weird or weak- all the things that I had been characterized. It also made me feel more human because I understood for the first time that all the things that people had problems about with me was about my neurology and not my character. And so, you know, when you grow up as a child, usually the first thing that is said is that you're defiant, you're a bad child.

Sy Hoekstra: You’re misbehaving.

Lamar Hardwick: Misbehaving, yeah. And so for the first time I realized like, no, I'm not. I don't have serious character flaws that people are making me out to be. It's just neurologically I see the world differently.

So it was a relief, but then there's the other part of it where there actually was a little bit of grief just because it was like meeting myself for the first time and the person that I thought I was, was not [00:07:00] really the person that everybody else was experiencing, which was okay. But, you know, you got 36 years of struggling trying to make people like you, and you realize that the things, the way that people have perceived you is not the way that you thought that they perceived you. So there was a little bit of grief there I had to wrestle through. You know, blaming myself for relationships that ended that I had no idea why they ended, for jobs that I wasn't able to hold, those types of things. But thankfully, both my wife and I stayed with the clinical psychologist that diagnosed me. I actually stayed with her for almost two years to sort of help me unravel those complicated parts of my life so that I didn't have to carry that burden of grief because the reality is none of that was my fault. I just had to get to a place where I was okay with what happened in the past and I was ready to move forward.

Sy Hoekstra: That's, it's interesting to me because I'm, [00:08:00] because I'm blind I don't, I did not have the experience of not… [chuckles] blindness is something you can diagnose pretty quickly. [Lamar chuckles] So I did not have the experience of missing that diagnosis, but I do understand the part about having to like go to a therapist to deal with grief because I did for a long time, even though I obviously knew what was going on, I just wasn't dealing with the emotional aspect of it. I wasn't dealing with the, you know, the kind of social rejection and like a lot of those things that you're talking about. I was trying to pretend that I could see and do everything that other sighted kids could do, and like not ever having to go back and say like, no, okay, this, you know, rejection and the ways that society isn't built for me, like actually made me sad and I need to deal with that, like preferably with a professional, was something that took me a long time to get to. So that part I understand.

Lamar Hardwick: Yeah.

Jonathan Walton: Dr. Hardwick, something that you [00:09:00] mentioned, I would, I wonder if you could talk more about like the intersectionality of disability and Blackness. Like I'm not part of the disabled community, but I am part of the Black community and in reflecting on like how we as Black folks treat people who are quote unquote different- that's how my church would describe it in the South, you know, Southern Virginia Church of 50 people- there were some different kinds of people, right.

Lamar Hardwick: Yeah.

Jonathan Walton: And so, could you share about coming out to us?

Lamar Hardwick: Sure. Yeah, I mean, a lot of my work is based on that. I touch on it a little bit in the book and I probably am looking to do some further work and maybe write another book specifically about that, you know, the Black church experience, the African-American experience with disability.

So what I'll say about that is there's a huge, [00:10:00] huge context of history of, one of mistrust of medical systems, mental health systems. Rightfully so because, you know, we know now from history, there was plenty of things that were done to enslaved Africans and even after slavery ended that just created this huge mistrust.

So a large part of it, especially my research in the Black community, is difficult in dealing with some of those things, is that, you know, enslaved Africans were brought here to produce and so they needed bodies that could produce. And so a lot of the enslaved Africans when they had children that had some form of disability would lie about having the child, would hide the child, because it was a way of protecting that child.

And so some of that mindset has [00:11:00] continued throughout the community because, you know, we understood very well that Black bodies were born to produce. And if there was some reason that they were not able to produce, then they needed to be protected by the community at all costs because it is very well documented that slave owners would beat the children, sometimes even kill the children, drown the children.

So some of that shame and stigma is a direct result of slavery and racism, to be honest. And so we're, as a community, always fighting against that because what it has done is it has made us suspicious for a reason, but also has put us behind the curve as far as being able to access the resources that are needed. And then some of those resources, honestly, don't, are not easily accessible to communities of color. And so I've talked to many people across the country where they would go somewhere, but it's not anywhere close to where [00:12:00] they live. There's no access to those resources.

And then the last thing I'll say about that is that there's a great sermon from Dr. King called “The Guidelines for a Constructive Church.” And he talks about in that sermon that, and I'm paraphrasing, that one of the things that the church is also responsible and on the forefront of doing is helping to get rid of the bias that slavery created. And so it's not just in freeing enslaved Africans, it’s freeing people from the bias that it created. So a good example of that would be CDC, I think last year, released new statistics on autism. And they did say in that report that the diagnostic disparities between white children and African-Americans and Latinos has been reduced. As fact, they're saying that, that they are being diagnosed at the same [00:13:00] rates.

But what's interesting in that report is that for those who don't have a co-occurrence of an intellectual disability, like myself, those rates are still, there's still a huge gap. A co-occurrence of intellectual disability with autism does not define autism. So therefore, in theory, all the behaviors that should get you diagnosed should be the same, right? This is just science. And having an intellectual disability does not actually make the autism more pronounced.

So what that suggests is if those behaviors should be all the same, then why is it that when it comes to African-Americans and Latinos who do not have an intellectual disability along with autism are still not being diagnosed at the same rate? What I've shared in some conferences is that's because behaviors from Black and brown bodies are always interpreted as something different. And so you [00:14:00] get these gaps. But we don't even need that. That's just one example. We don't even need to see that, we can see it in society, right, with how behaviors and mannerisms and the way that their bodies move are oftentimes interpreted as something other than, and so what it's done is just, it continues to create diagnostic disparities.

And I think that that's one of the things that Dr. King was talking about in his sermon about not just freeing enslaved Africans, but freeing, particularly this country, from the bias that slavery created. So it's unfortunate that that's part of the legacy of this country, but it has done a disservice to the African-American community. So that's why you see a lot of not being able to handle, as you said, Jonathan, the different people in our congregations, right. Some of that is because of protection for those persons who would otherwise be [00:15:00] demonized by the greater society.

Suzie Lahoud: Dr. Hardwick, thank you so much for sharing with us both your personal story and also your expertise as an advocate and as an author who's written on this. And just to ask you now as a pastor, after you received your diagnosis, how did you change the way that you approached pastoring and how did your church respond? What were the changes that they made?

Lamar Hardwick: Yeah, great question. So, you know, once I was diagnosed and I had time to process it, I realized a couple of things. One, I realized a lot of the barriers that I had faced in trying to be a pastor, in bouncing from church to church because I didn't fit- I realized what those barriers were for the first time. I didn't understand it before I had a diagnosis and people didn't know either, [00:16:00] but it is very instinctual for people to sort of push away anyone who's different because I don't fit the stereotypical mold of what most people think a pastor should be like or act like. And so I realized, on a larger scale, me understanding it now I'm understanding some of the ableism, even though it probably wasn't intentional because no one knew, but I really started to understand the barriers that I had to fight through and why it was so difficult for me.

What that did for me is I now realize I'm a part of the autism community, but I'm also part of the disability community at large. And wow, if I've had these experiences now that I have a label to be able to, or a language, rather, to be able to explain them, how much more difficult has it been for other people?

So it [00:17:00] really opened my eyes. Like I didn't have as much experience or knowledge about how people with disabilities were impacted by a society and a culture that's not necessarily built for them. I just knew I had problems on my way, you know, trying to become what I felt I was called to be. So that, it made me pastor differently because now I realize that I have my foot in both worlds. And, you know, as someone who has been a leader, is blessed to have been a leader of a church, I felt the necessity to say, okay, now that I understand this better, now that I get it, I should leverage the platform and any privilege that I have to make it better for persons like myself, because I understand it now. I understand what those problems were. I understand it a little bit deeper. So it made me more empathetic, but it also empowered me to [00:18:00] say, okay, I can do church differently because I'm blessed to be able to be the one who could change things because I happen to be the pastor.

But then also it felt more like a calling from God to say, okay, not just your church, but what if you start to speak out and try to help all churches to understand this important issue? So it made me, it totally made me pastor out of my personal experience with being a part of the disability community and say, okay, here's the stuff that doesn't work for me. I don't like it. It's been a barrier for me my whole life. It's been the reason why I struggled with church. We're not doing that anymore. And if, you know, if y'all, don't like it, I hate to tell you, but, you know, this is how it's gonna, we're going to have to do it this way because there's many people like me who are not coming to our churches for these reasons.

So it gave me, it gave me a reason to do things differently. And the [00:19:00] church responded, I think. You know, at least the church I was previously at that I pastored and I helped set up ministry there, and the church I'm at now, that I've only been at two years, but when I came in to interview, I told them up front, “Look, if you're going to bring me in, you have to know these things you have to know about me,”-which they already knew all about me- “and you have to know that we're going to have to do things a certain way if we're going to be more inclusive of people with disabilities.” And thankfully, they have risen to the occasion because I think they're understanding the necessity of what we've been trying to do.

Jonathan Walton: Yeah, and building off of that, I'm wondering, how did your theology change? In the book, you talk about the fear of being human as it relates to the Garden of Eden and the fall and disability. So could you just, you know, for people who haven't read the book or are just diving into it, cause it's meaty, like it needs time, you know? But if you [00:20:00] were going to just give a quick overview of like, what are you getting at with the fear of being human and what do people who read the book look forward to getting when they engage?

Lamar Hardwick: Yeah. Good, good question. One of the things I realize about myself is I've always had these perspectives and these views of scripture that I'm now realizing that a lot of it is attributed to my neurology. Like I've just always, I say all the time, if I'm in a room with nine other people and there's ten of us, I'm almost always the person who's going to see things differently, almost always. And so that's always put me on the outside, but so a lot of those verses that and scriptures that I unpack were things I had preached about for years before I even knew that I was on the spectrum, but that's just the way I see things.

So there's a whole thing about the fear of being human is that we have, you know, none of us like limits. [00:21:00] And you see this more as our society progresses, right? Especially with technology. Like we don't like to be limited. And so, you know, we’re the type of people who will leave something early so we can get to something late. Cause we want to be everywhere, all the time, you know, and be connected all the time.

And that's an internal struggle that we have because we don't like limits. We want to be more than what we are. We'd like to do more than what we are capable of doing. It's caused us to be burned out, has caused us to chase after things and be unhealthy. Like we're the culture that brags about how much rest we don't get, right. Because we just, we're just obsessed with the grind and the hustle.

Well, for me, like I have sensory processing issues, social anxiety. There's a lot of things, a lot of ways that I'm limited. And so when I said when I got diagnosed that for the first time I felt human it's because I realized I'm not supposed to be able to do all those things. I'm not supposed to be able to be all these things, right. And that's sort of the [00:22:00] story of the Garden. The way that I've always seen it is God tells Adam and Eve look, you know, he's put them in this perfect situation, right? This ideal situation. And just asks for simple trust because you're not, you're not built to bear the burden and the weight of this knowledge of good and evil, right? We're just not built for that. And one of the things that the serpent does is he appeals to our need to be more than human. So he says, “If you, if you eat this, you'll be just like God.”

Well, I say this in the book, that that was never really God's plan to be like him. It was to be with him, right. We already bear his image. Like what, what are we, what more do we want? And so it just speaks to our need to constantly try to be more than human. We don't like pain. We don't like suffering. We don't like disability. We don't like, you know, [00:23:00] all the things that make us feel limited. And so I think at the core, we really have to wrestle with that. Like, why do we have this aversion to suffering or disability or limitations when God designed us to be human, right? And to enjoy that experience. We're not supposed to be more than that. And you even think about that with time.  Like I tell people all the time, you know, I do certain things. I know when I'm the strongest. I know how much time I have to use. But I've learned to just not try to be more than what I am.

Paul talks about that too. Like, you know, embracing that, that thorn that he has and understanding that, you know what? I'm human and I don't have to try to be more than what God created me to be. I can be happy with what God created me to be. And so I, you know, I think that's something that we gotta wrestle with and come to terms with and know that God was happy with how he created us. And the more and more that becomes less about what we desire is to [00:24:00] just be with God and not try to be like God and try to be God, the less capable we are of having what I believe is, is the best version of ourselves and the best relationship we can have with God.

Sy Hoekstra: That's such a pastoral word of grace, I feel like, to so many people. Cause I, like when I read that in your book, I mean, this is just from my own experience, I immediately jumped to a story where a coworker of mine whose mother was going blind as a result of a medical condition had told the coworker that when she went blind she was going to commit suicide. Like she just straight up said that to her own daughter. And it's like I- which is obviously horrible for the daughter, for the woman herself I feel terrible, like that's an awful thought to have- but me hearing that story is like, you know, someone saying I'd rather be dead than you.

It's not just people with disabilities. There's so many different people who, to whom society in various ways [00:25:00] says that, like gives that message.

Lamar Hardwick: Right. Yeah.

Sy Hoekstra: So to say this just isn't, this is like, it's baked into us, but God is with us anyway. Like it's right there at the beginning of what we believe. It's a fundamental thing, this fear of being human, it's part of who we are, but God has made provision for that and has worked to remedy that is, I don't know, it's just, it's a really powerful message.

Lamar Hardwick: Yeah. And to not be ashamed, right? Like they, they cover themselves. It's just like before you ate that fruit, like you were perfectly happy with the bodies you were given, with the situation you were in. All of a sudden now you feel the need to cover yourself, right. To be ashamed of the bodies that God has given us. And for me, I think that's a huge issue we got to wrestle with and try to progress past.

Unfortunately, progress has made it harder to do that because it keeps promising us the ability to get rid of all of our [00:26:00] limitations. And, you know, when we do run into the fact that we know we have a limitation, we try to cover it. We try to hide. We try to pretend that we're not human.

Sy Hoekstra: So I think this probably goes well into another bit of theology that you talk about. You draw on the work of Nancy Eiesland, who is a theologian from Candler seminary- the late Nancy Eiesland- and her book, The Disabled God. And you talk about the fact that, I think probably a lot of people have not thought about, that God has disabilities. And can you explain what you mean by that and kind of what that means for disabled people and the church?

Lamar Hardwick: Yeah, so Nancy Eiesland, the late Nancy Eiesland, was great. I actually went to Candler, and so she's a big influence, but I pick up on her work where she talks about, primarily about the crucifixion and the resurrection of Jesus. So I think one of the [00:27:00] things that I've noticed is that we tend to preach and teach a Sunday school sanitized version of that experience, right. But when you look at the fact that Jesus comes back in his resurrection still bearing the marks of his disabled, uh, disable and torture, right.

So I sort of break it down, like actually what a Roman crucifixion would have been like. A lot of the visual depictions that we show is not actually how the Romans did it. But when you, when you study that you realize if those things weren't healed, because you remember, he goes back and Thomas asked to see those wounds, right. And he's fully back, but he still carries with him those marks. And he actually leverages those marks of impairment as a way of identifying himself, right.

So the nine-inch spikes would have gone through his wrists. I can't [00:28:00] recall exactly, but I did medical research on that and the number of tendons that that would have severed. Okay, so those are not healed. The way that the Romans would have crucified you, they would have turned the legs to the side and driven a spike somewhere around the Achilles tendon. And I talk about that in the book. I've torn an Achilles tendon. And to come back without that being healed, like it took me a year to learn how to use my body again. So, you know, for that to not have been healed meant that those marks would have been disabling. That's just God's honest truth.

And then if you, even if you flip over to Revelation and it gives the image that, you know, we believe is an image of Christ, and it says the Lamb that was mortally wounded yet standing. And so there's like this tension between these disabling marks that should have killed him and did- it’s mortally wounded, but still functioning- it's sort of a nod to the [00:29:00] fact that he carries with him back into, you know, the heavenly realm, this body that was brutally disabled through the torture.

So that stuff doesn't go away, right. And I think because we, again, we have such an aversion to suffering that we sort of believe that those things went away, right. And one of the things that I talk about is that, okay, we've got to wrestle with that. We have to wrestle with that, and we have to wrestle with the fact that Jesus uses those marks as a major identifier of who he is after he's resurrected. And so that's just picking up on the work of Nancy Eiesland and some of my own thoughts about, okay, you know, if Jesus is God then we have to, we have to wrestle with the fact that he carries with him these marks of impairment that would’ve been brutally disabling and doesn't get rid of them. And, you know, [00:30:00] from his resurrection to his Ascension, to all the way to Revelation, those things still remain as a part of who he is to the extent that they're used to identify him.

So I think a lot of the things that we believe is because we just want to believe it. We want to believe that those things are gone, but if they're not, what does that say about God? What does that say about his ability to identify with the disability community and everybody in between? What does that say about what we believe? And what does it say about our idea of sacred spaces, right? I talk about that in the book that if that's true, we've got to really wrestle with why is it that when we have this ideal sacred space, it never includes disabled bodies?

Sy Hoekstra: You actually ask at one point in the book, whether or not people who are disabled will continue to have disabilities in heaven. Which I think again, some people will probably think is a pretty radical [00:31:00] question to ask. And you don't necessarily give a definitive answer, but you do say that it's an important question for the church to ask. And it affects specifically how we think about inclusion in the church. Can you talk about why that is?

Lamar Hardwick: Yeah, because, you know, so I talk about where a lot of that, or at least a couple of sections where that new body belief comes from. So I researched them cause I want to know where do we get that from? I know a lot of it is because, again, we have an aversion to suffering. And so like we view heaven as this great escape plan, right. To escape the things that we don't necessarily like about ourselves, or the limits that are placed on us because we're human. But the two places, or a couple of places, rather, where we get that from is from some of Paul's writing. But when I researched it, it didn't feel like that's what he was saying at all.

[00:32:00] And so that then led me to believe that, you know what? We've got to step back here, because for Christians the ideal is heaven, right. That's our ideal sacred space. But I’d ask myself, when we, when we think about our ideal sacred space, do we think if it includes disabled bodies? So the connection I'm trying to make is that whatever our ideal sacred space is, we try to recreate those moments in our churches and that's historical. I didn't go into it a lot in the book, but it's historical. Even if you look at, you know, how the Tabernacle was built, how the Temple was built, like there were ideals there about what a sacred space looked like.

So I think, you know, like I said, I didn't, like you said, I didn't come to an answer, but I think it's a [00:33:00] question that nobody asks, or at least a lot of people are not asking. Why is this so difficult for us? Well, we have this ideal.

Suzie Lahoud: Another really powerful point that you make in the book is rooting your argument that the church should actively include disabled people in a broader theology of diversity. And could you also share why you believe that the church is called by God to seek out diversity?

Lamar Hardwick: Yeah, so I talk about it in a couple of places. You know, one, that Jesus, when he tells Peter that “I'm gonna…” you know, after Peter says, “You are the Christ,” and he says, “I'm going to build my church.” After that he says, “I'm going to give to the church- you all- the keys to the Kingdom.”

So one of the jobs of the church has always been to give people access. And so by nature, even if you look at Jesus in the, what we know as the Great Commission, he says, “Go out, [00:34:00] and make disciples. Give people access,” right? Teach them about this kingdom, this new way of living, and do it among all ethnic groups.

And then you go over to what I call the opening day of the church in the Book of Acts when Peter's preaching, and they're like, you know, “You guys are drunk.” Which I think is so funny. And he says, “Look,” he says, “it's only nine in the morning. The liquor store is not even open yet,” right? It's like, we're not drunk like that. But then he says, “This is what the prophet, Joel prophesied.” And in that message from Joel- Joel, I think it's chapter two, verse 28- he says, you know, it's going to be all genders- men and women, all generations. So he eventually says all genders, all generations, all cultures, all conditions, right?

And so this outpouring of the Holy Spirit begins to help the early church understand that diversity [00:35:00] is actually at the forefront of what it means to build a church until you establish God's Kingdom. And that includes all genders, all generations, all conditions, all cultures that are now being made into one people group. So it's important for the church to understand that that's, that's been our job is to pursue diversity, is to bring in different kinds of people from different backgrounds.

The connection to the disability community is that, you know, our culture has been pushing a lot for diversity and inclusion, as it should, because we're realizing that much of what we have believed to be right and true has come from primarily one set of voices. So now we're saying we need more minority voices at the table because everything from education, to faith communities, to employment has been shaped primarily by one set of voices. We need other minorities to weigh in, to have a seat at the table.

The connection is that the disability community is actually the largest minority group in the world- about [00:36:00] 20%. So for me, as the church is trying to catch up to the culture and saying, okay, we want diverse churches. What I'm saying is that we've all got to back up and say, I appreciate the ethnic and racial diversity, but we're missing an entire population of minorities that is actually the largest minority group in the world. And that's persons with disabilities. And I tell people that the disability community is the only minority group that you can join, and you can join at any time, for any reason.

Sy Hoekstra: At any time.

Lamar Hardwick: And if you live long enough, you'll become part of it.

Sy Hoekstra: Yep. [chuckles]

Jonathan Walton: [chuckling] When I read that, I was like, “Wow, he's so right. This is true.”

Suzie Lahoud: Yeah. I was just going to say, that's also just so, so profound because that just relates back to this concept of, it's really about the human condition. This is all of us. And we just need to realize that [00:37:00] and embrace that as the church. Yeah, so thank you for sharing those insights.

Jonathan Walton: I realize like I am, I am exceptionally limited, and COVID has revealed our corporate limitations, right. And our just, inability and unwillingness to learn across difference, and then the radical dismissal that happens when people are no longer able to produce, no longer able to do the thing that we were quote unquote expected or agreed to do. And so I'm just marinating in, in my own stuff as you're speaking.

So I, that's why I was pausing, I was like, I don't, I don't know what I wanna ask… But you talk about, like, the return on investment that happens when we make space, and ministries make space, when churches make space. So could you explain how you advise church administrations to think about the return on [00:38:00] investment in that context?

Lamar Hardwick: Yeah. So, one of the things that I often hear, and I guess it's a good question. I can say that from a pastor’s standpoint, but from a theological and spiritual standpoint it’s not a great question. And usually that question is, you know, how much is this going to cost? Like, how do we fit this in our budget? Because there are some real practical things that need to be done, you know, if you're going to make your church more inclusive. A lot of it really starts with building the culture, having the right attitude. You know, really just being obedient to the teachings of Jesus, which, you know, is a novel idea. [All chuckle] But, one of the things that I challenge churches to do, and I say in the book, is that we've got to get a better understanding of value versus cost, right.

So in the Parable of the Banquet, Jesus says, you know, to go out and invite the lame, the blind, the cripple, and the poor. And he admonishes them then, don't [00:39:00] invite people who can repay you, right. Because that becomes your only reward. So in a simple way, Jesus is saying, well, you're getting what you invested in. Like the reason why they're not there is because you've never actually invested in them. And, as it stands, the way that you’ve built your table, and the way that you’ve built your banquet, that's your only reward. You get to hang around people who are just like you. But he says, when you invite the disability community and the poor and the marginalized, those who society has pushed away, he says something interesting. He says, “Then, at the resurrection of the righteous, God will repay you.”

So it's almost like he's saying that there's a level of blessing that comes from making this initial investment. Because even though you're trying to figure out how do we get able-bodied people in our churches, because they're working, they're going to be able to pay tithes, they're going to be able to pay for this building. Let’s just be honest, that's a lot of the thought process. But Jesus says, “Okay, but you think your church is great?” And I say this to people- we think our churches are great, but they're only as half as good as they could be, right. [00:40:00] Because Jesus says that God is then responsible for the repayment. And there's a level of blessing on your organization that does not exist when you build it backwards. So as great as you think your church is, if you’ve built it backwards by not reaching this community first, then it’s at best, only half as good as it could be. And so, but a lot of that is we've got to get out of this mindset, again, about who can produce and who can pay for what we're trying to do. That's a way of building the church totally backwards.

And you read Luke 14 and Jesus will have none of it, right. He's like, “No, that's not how we're gonna do this thing.” And he's, you know, and if you choose to do it, just know that you have received your only reward. And God's not the one who's giving it to you. It's the people that you've invited.

So I think we’ve got to have a conversation about value versus cost. Just because it may [00:41:00] cost something doesn't mean these people are not valuable. Because actually it just, it brings a whole level of blessing that you can't conjure up. You cannot kinda manufacturer God's blessing on your church, your organization, and the way that, if you actually do it, the way that he says to do it.

So, and then there's practical things too. Like I tell people, Jesus is very clear in the New Testament- heart follows treasure, right. And so if you want to have value for it, if you want your heart to be in serving this community, you’ve got to put some money into it.

The church that I, I pastored for nine years before I went to my new church, when I left I tied up nearly two years’ worth of funds for disability ministry and designated it so they could do nothing for two years with that money but disability ministry.

Jonathan Walton: [Sy laughing in the background] That's awesome.

Lamar Hardwick: [chuckling] I said, “You could do whatever you want with the new pastor.” Cause someone asked me, [00:42:00] “How do you know they're going to continue the work after you leave?” I said, “Well, I've set up a couple of things. We have elders and, you know, staff members who are personally impacted by it- a few staff members that had disabilities. So we had people who it was personal to. But then the reality is is that heart follows treasure. If you want your heart to stay with this mission, put some money in it.” And I actually allocated that money and designated it. And that's the only thing they can do with that money for almost two years. So it's like, after that, you can do whatever you want. But, you know, this is where we're going to place our value, and make sure our heart stays in serving that community.

So, and here's the thing- you mentioned COVID. And I'll say this: when accessibility became an everybody issue, we saw the church get really creative didn't we? We saw it come up with money to do all sorts of things, right? And I tweeted about that. Like the disability community is watching. What you're saying is it could have been done all along. That it’s not a money [00:43:00] issue. It's just been a willingness issue. Some of it's just been ignorance, but it's a shame that it took for accessibility to become an everybody issue for the church to get creative and start financing ways to give everybody access to its programming and to the things that it's doing.

So I'm hoping that, you know, the people who weren’t able to access their church buildings, for some of us a year now not accessing the programs, will understand what it’s been like… I tweeted this, that the distance that COVID created between pastors and parishioners is analogous to the distance that has always existed between the church and the disability community. So now that you feel it, do something about it.

Sy Hoekstra: And one practical step might be, you know, so many churches now have figured out a way to do so many of that, so much of their ministry remotely, right. And so there is a way actually, in which like, especially people who can't leave their homes for the past year have had access to stuff that they've never [00:44:00] had. Like a breadth of access to ministry that has never been available before. So maybe keep that.

Lamar Hardwick: Keep it. I talked about this in a conference that I did recently where I said, I likened it to the pool of Bethesda, right? All the people gathered there because they believed that there was a place where they could experience God and, you know, because they felt like, you know, the legend that the angel would trouble the water.

What I said is I feel like God is troubling the water and not to heal disabled bodies, but to heal the disability community’s faith in the church, because now they've seen what we can do. And I'm hoping that we will, we will take this as an opportunity to bring some healing to their faith in the institution that has let them down.

Sy Hoekstra: So just going off of that, Pastor Hardwick, you have actually a lot of faith in, and you describe yourself as an apologist for the local church, [00:45:00] despite the fact that it has been so exclusionary of you and me and you know, everybody like us. Why? Why are you such an apologist? What keeps you going, you know, advocating for an institution that has been so exclusionary?

Lamar Hardwick: Simple answer: because Jesus didn't leave us with a plan B. [chuckles] He said, “I'm going to build my church.” He meant it. And he said, “I'm going to give the keys to you all.” And there's no plan B. Like he put all his eggs in that basket, you know. So the keys to the Kingdom don't belong to the government, or to Hollywood, or the school system. He only gave those keys to the church. So it's always been on us. But also the church has, most people don't realize this, a rich history of doing this work. Somehow or another we've moved away from it.

And I talk a little bit about in the book where Paul writes in [00:46:00] Galatians that because of his, he calls it physical brokenness, that he landed in the province of Galatia, which by the way, is an early letter. So you get Paul's most unfiltered experience with the church after his conversion, right. And he says, he says, you know, I didn't choose to land here. My body chose this for me. Which is often the life of somebody with a disability. Your body makes choices that you wouldn't necessarily choose. But Paul says, “When I, when I landed here, you guys were good to me. You didn't consider me a burden. Some of you,” he says, “were even so kind to me, you would have given me your eyes, if you could.” Which is a nod to just maybe what he was dealing with as far as going blind, amongst other things he had that were, that we believe were disabilities, but he says, then something changed.

So if you look at the rich history of the church between the first and third century, the church was always on the forefront of it. A lot of medical innovation and ethics and the way that people were cared for, the way that the [00:47:00] disabled were cared for, a lot of those ideas and ethics came from the Christian faith and like Paul, he says, “You started off good. And then something happened.”

So I continue to have faith because I know the history. I know what the church is capable of, I know how it started off. And I also know that there's no plan B. There's nowhere else that is going to be able to swing the doors wide open to get access to God's Kingdom and the type of loving-kindness and gentleness and the affirming of all human life. That, that's the church's job.

So I, I'm almost forced to kind of, to have hope because Jesus didn't give me another option. He says, “You guys are it.” So either you're going to do it right, or people are just not going to experience what God has always designed them to experience. So I have hope because we're it.

Jonathan Walton: Lord have mercy. He's right. [all laugh]

Sy Hoekstra: Lord have mercy is a good reaction. [00:48:00] That's as good as any of, of a note to end on I think.

You know, again, for everybody, the book is Disability and the Church. Cannot recommend it enough and Pastor Lamar Hardwick, thank you so much for being with us today. This was a fantastic conversation.

Lamar Hardwick: Thanks for having me.

[“Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in briefly, then fades out.] 

Suzie Lahoud: Thanks for listening. You can follow Dr. Hardwick @autismpastor on social media, and remember to pick up a copy of Disability and the Church. You can subscribe to our blog [00:51:00] at www.ktfpress.com. Follow us on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook @KTFPress, and please remember to subscribe, rate and review wherever you're listening.

Our theme music is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra and our podcast art is by Jacqueline Tam.

We'll see you next week!

[“Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades back in. Lyrics: “Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” Song fades out.]  

Jonathan Walton: I pop my knuckles all the time directly next to the mic, and you never hear it.

Sy Hoekstra: No, I do hear it. I edit that out. [Suzie gasps]

Jonathan Walton: Oh, you do? Oh, that's funny. Sorry…

Sy Hoekstra: You don't hear it.

Suzie Lahoud: Truth comes out…

Jonathan Walton: Whelp, never mind then. I’m sorry.

Suzie Lahoud: [laughing] That’s actually so funny! Jonathan’s like, “And you never hear it.” And Sy’s there like scrubbing the… [all laughing]

Jonathan Walton: [00:52:00] Sy’s hearing like, crack, crack, crack, crack! I’m sorry. I didn’t know. I apologize.  

Today, the team talks with Chuck Armstrong, a pastor, church planter, and writer. They discuss Chuck’s recent Medium article on his time working in the toxic world of talk radio, what attracted him to that world as a young white man, how he found his way out, and much more. 

Shake the Dust is a podcast of KTF Press. Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Find transcripts of this show, sign up for our free mailing list, and subscribe to our blog at KTFPress.com. 

Hosts: 

Jonathan Walton – follow him on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter.  

Suzie Lahoud – follow her on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter.  

Sy Hoekstra – follow him on Twitter.  

Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra – listen to the whole song on Spotify. 

Our podcast art is by Jacqueline Tam – follow her and see her other work on Instagram.  

Shake the Dust is produced and edited by Sy Hoekstra. 

Questions about anything you heard on the show? Write to [email protected] and we may answer your question on a future episode. 

Transcript

[00:00:00] Chuck Armstrong: I don't think any form of repentance- whether it's about your own history of racism, like I have, or just, you know, about a small thing- I don't think there's any form of repentance that truly comes without transparency; transparency before ourselves, before our community, before God.

And so, you know, if my form of transparency is maybe overly public, my hope and my prayer is that it might anger and confuse some people, but man, I hope it encourages and pushes other people to be bold in their own repentance and in their own transparency.

[The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/That it will roll in abundance/ And that you’re building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.]   

Sy Hoekstra: Welcome to Shake the Dust, leaving colonized faith for the Kingdom of God, a podcast of KTF Press. I'm Sy Hoekstra here with [00:01:00] Jonathan Walton and Suzie Lahoud.

Jonathan Walton: Today, we're interviewing Chuck Armstrong, a church planner and writer in New York City. Originally from a town of about 150 people in Northeast Kansas, he now lives in Hell's Kitchen with his family, where he pastors Hope Church Hell's Kitchen. Chuck also had a prior career in talk radio and he wrote a long article after the death of Rush Limbaugh chronicling his journey into and out of conservative media. That article is linked in the show notes, and we suggest you give it a read.

We talked to him about that article, why he was attracted to the toxic politics of talk radio, how he found his way out through his faith and some very patient friends, and a whole lot more.

Suzie Lahoud: Remember to subscribe to our blog at www.ktfpress.com to get access to our weekly newsletter, which is a regular roundup of media around culture, faith, and politics worthy of your time and attention.

You will also get writing from the three of us and bonus episodes of this show. Your subscription supports the show and [00:02:00] upcoming book projects. And if you're not in a financial place to subscribe to the blog, we totally understand. You can support us by going to www.ktfpress.com and signing up for the free mailing list, subscribing to this podcast, and rating and reviewing this show wherever you're listening.

All those things are really helpful to us too, and we appreciate it.

Sy Hoekstra: Without further ado, here's the interview with Chuck…

[“Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in briefly, then fades out.] 

Sy Hoekstra: Chuck Armstrong, thank you so much for being with us on Shake The Dust. How are you doing today?

Chuck Armstrong: Hey man, I'm good. Thank you so much for having me. This is really a privilege.

Sy Hoekstra: We feel the same about you being here, and this article that you've written, which we've mentioned already, is fantastic. And we just want to hear more and hear more of your wisdom on this subject. And so I just want to jump right in and say, you know, at the beginning of the article, you start by mentioning how, you know, Rush Limbaugh, who the article is kind of primarily about, was just involved in your life all the time. You were hearing him, not just like with your parents in the car, but you were listening to him on your own, [00:03:00] even as a kid. And so I think we should just start out by asking, you know, what is it that you found about his show and others like it so attractive? What exactly did you feel that you were getting out of it when you were listening to him?

Chuck Armstrong: Yeah, that is a, uh, it's a good question. And I think as I've thought about it, you know, as I've reflected on my kind of upbringing, as I've reflected on just my life in conservative talk radio, I think why I really was first attracted to it was it felt like he was speaking to me. Now, I'm young when I'm first listening, so I think more realistically, it felt like he was speaking to my dad or to my brother, my older brother, or to my family, you know, whoever it is. And I think I connected with that because I wanted to kind of like be in. I wanted to be smart enough to carry a conversation about politics. I wanted to be, you know, [00:04:00] witty enough to laugh at the jokes that Rush would crack or the parody songs that he would play. You know, I just, I wanted to, I felt like I needed to be part of that. And so I think listening to it made me feel closer to that and definitely made me feel smarter. I, you know, I think I was able to say that, yeah, I'm a political junkie or I'm a news junkie because I listened to radio. Not because I was consuming much, but because I was simply listening to radio.

Sy Hoekstra: So it was in a lot of ways connected to like your specific community and your family, even though you were listening to a guy who was talking to millions of people all around the country; like it felt localized and personal to you.

Chuck Armstrong: Yeah. I mean, listen, that's the best radio is when the host sounds like he is speaking to you. And not that he's speaking to yeah, the millions of people across the country that are listening, but he's speaking directly to you and to your, you know, situation, your context, whatever it is. [00:05:00] And, you know, Rush too, regardless if he was broadcasting from New York City or Florida or wherever, he was born in Missouri, he was born in the Midwest. And so, you know, so was I, and so there was that kind of connection too, I think.

Jonathan Walton: So, Chuck- I'm from the South, so I call you Pastor Chuck. I'm gonna go back and forth because I hear my mom in the background being like, “You better call that man pastor!” [laughs]

Chuck Armstrong: Hey, I’ll take it. I’ll take it.

Jonathan Walton: But, yeah, so I've listened to Rush Limbaugh. I've listened to talk radio. I've listened to, like, I'm from Southern Virginia. These things were playing in the background when I was a kid too. And something that I'm wondering is the ease with which racism, misogyny, and Republican conservative politics, even, you know, some Republicans say, “Oh, that's not Republican politics,” but like the way that, you know, Rush Limbaugh would just go back and forth between these things. Could you talk a little bit about like, [00:06:00] if you were or how you were processing the racism he would share or the misogyny he would share, particularly, like I think you were, you would probably be around listening, like prime age when he would talk about Hillary Clinton.

Chuck Armstrong: Yeah. I mean, you know, that's the, that was kind of the hard part about writing all of this and telling the story because it made me confront my past. And it made me confront, you know, listening to someone like Rush and laughing when I heard jokes, you know, or even if I didn't understand them. You know, I think I mentioned in the article hearing, you know, parody songs about bombing Iraq and I can still sing those parody songs in my head. I have no idea what they meant when I first heard them. And so I think similarly, you know, if I had, if I heard Rush crack a joke about Hillary, about, [00:07:00] you know, about feminists, about the homeless, about whoever, the scary part is that I would have laughed at it. I definitely laughed at it.

And if anything, I mean, you used the word superiority- I think that's what it did. It more emboldened me to think that this isn't racism, this isn’t misogyny. This guy is a, you know, he's an entertainer. That's always kind of the thing that I think he fell back on- that he's not a journalist, he's an entertainer, and he's doing his job.

And so, you know, he wasn't my pastor. He wasn’t my journalist. He was just a guy entertaining. And he did so by pushing the envelope and telling jokes. I, you know, that's kind of what you tell yourself. That's what I told myself. And the scary thing is, and the sad thing is, and really what drove me to write much of that, is it changes you, man. It emboldens you to [00:08:00] do the same, you know, to people around you; to look at people with that sense of superiority. You know, I would definitely call it a privilege, too. You look at people with a sense of privilege and it really, really shapes your perspective.

I think for me, growing up in the Midwest, listening to Rush, listening to talk radio, you know, I, it really strengthened my own sense of work ethic and the importance of work ethic and really, you know, we're all equal and it's just whoever's going to work the hardest and that's who's going to succeed. And so all of that's just like wound up together. You know, I never sort of relegated Rush’s racism over here and his misogyny over there and the privilege here. Like it was just all bound up together.

Jonathan Walton: Hmm, thanks for explaining that.

Chuck Armstrong: Yeah. It's, you know, it's not much fun to look back on it and to [00:09:00] think through it, but I think it's necessary.

Sy Hoekstra: It's yeah, it's definitely necessary. And we're glad that you did it.

Also, you just said in the middle of that, “he's not my pastor,” which is precisely the excuse that people used all throughout Trump's presidency, right?

Chuck Armstrong: Yeah, it sounds familiar.

Sy Hoekstra: “I didn't vote for pastor, I'm voting for president,” right? Like it's, yeah…

Chuck Armstrong: That's right. Yeah. And I think we, yeah, I mean, you know, you want to talk about a real privilege, and that’s thinking that you can separate your politics from your theology; your politics from your faith; your politics from your, from your vocation or whatever you want to say, you know? And the reality is, no, you know. You don't have a faith without a politic, and you don't have your politics without your faith. And it just, it seeps into every area of your life. And so, okay, you didn't vote for your pastor, but you voted for this president, and in some way that implicates, you know, your faith, that implicates what you [00:10:00] believe and how you live your life.

And so I think that the very same thing goes with, it goes with who you listen to and who, you know, what voices are in your head. I remember this- and you guys have maybe seen it since his death- but, a 60 Minutes interview with Rush and just point blankly, you know, he was asked, “Are you a racist?” and Rush says, “Nah. Pff.” You know, he leaned back and just laughed, “I'm not a racist.” And then just kind of moved on and, you know, it was kind of the typical, “I don't have a racist bone in my body” type of thing where if you say you're not, alright, then you move on, you know?

Suzie Lahoud: I just resonate so deeply, Chuck, with what you shared about how our theology and our politics are so intertwined. And we need to understand the importance of that interrelationship and really grapple with that. And so one other piece of your story that we wanted to dig into is, you [00:11:00] talk in your article about how you also grew up a Christian and have remained in the church your whole life. And so I'm just curious, as you were growing up and sort of imbibing this conservative talk radio politics, did you feel that the church that you grew up in affirmed or pushed back on some of those narratives and messages that you were being fed and how did that sort of play out?

Chuck Armstrong: Yeah, that's a great question. And, um, whew… We could really do some surgery here. So, you know, I grew up in my dad's church and so he's a pastor and remains a pastor to this day and is a phenomenal pastor. He's bi-vocational, and so he's really embedded in the community that I grew up in. Everybody knows him, everybody loves him, everybody respects him. You know, he preaches 50 weeks a year, and when he doesn't [00:12:00] preach, the church takes a vacation Sunday and it's really just, it's a small, small, small, small church outside an unincorporated town in Northeast Kansas.

Sy Hoekstra: And he's working a full-time job.

Chuck Armstrong: And he's working a full-time job, yeah. And so I have a, I have a really deep respect for my dad's ministry and the way that he has fulfilled his call, I think, that God's placed on him. Um, and then, but then, you know, to be totally honest, uh, no, you know. I don't really ever remember hearing, you know, social justice type of talk or anything like that. And certainly, you know, love your neighbor and that kind of thing. But never getting into sort of the systemic things that our country faced. Never really pushing into politics or anything like that. Definitely, you know, sticking [00:13:00] to “preach the gospel” type of methodology.

And so, yeah, you know, so I never, so I say all that, with, you know, with love for my dad but with an acknowledgement that what I was listening to, what I was choosing to say Monday through Friday to my friends, the jokes I was telling, the jokes I was laughing at, this, you know, superiority that I was building inside of myself based around my work ethic and my grades and all of this stuff- I never felt pushed back on any of that. And certainly I kept some of that, you know, maybe some of the more, you know, heinous things that I would laugh at or say, you know, I kept that secret from my parents of course.

But yeah, I never, you know, I never felt like I shouldn't listen to Rush or I shouldn't say this and yeah. And so it's tough because all of that [00:14:00] was wrapped up together, just like I've been saying, it's all wrapped up together in my own, you know, unique experience of growing up in a church that is pastored by my dad, listening to Rush, all of that's, you can't separate it.

Jonathan Walton: Oh man, that unlocks so many questions in my head. I'm wondering as you're having these conversations now, like you're on a podcast, you wrote this article, you've written other articles and done other podcasts before. Someone commented on the article offering you a book deal softly, right?

Chuck Armstrong: [chuckles] Yeah, yeah.

Jonathan Walton: Saw that, right. But like, so yeah, it's a public thing that you're doing. So what, if any, pushback now? Or what do the, what does the dialogue and the conversations look like? Because I admit that [00:15:00] and I acknowledge what you're saying. Like, you know, I grew up in a really small town in Southern Virginia and in the way that you're saying the politics and faith are bifurcated, right, as a black person in the South, they are forever together, right. In the way that you grew up, not putting them together, I can't separate them. That's just the ovens we were baked in, right. And so at the same time, we're growing and then having conversations with the generation that raised us, right.

And so, as you're engaging with this stuff publicly, what do the conversations look like with your dad? What does it look like to lead a congregation that has anti-racism as a value, right? And like, what are some of those personal, relational, I mean, everybody knows the systemic, obstacles. Like, oh, you get Twitter beef, you get Facebook messages, you get random…we know about that. But [00:16:00] the reconciliation for most of us is across the kitchen table, right. So what did those conversations look like? Planting a church, donors, seminary, alumni- how does the work you're doing actually impact your life each day?

Chuck Armstrong: Whew, man, you guys are taking the big shots!

Jonathan Walton: Welcome to Shake the Dust!

Chuck Armstrong: All right. All right. All right. I get it. [All laugh] So yeah, you know, just to be totally frank, uh, it's tough. You know, I moved to New York City eleven years ago. I interned in New York City a few years prior to that. And, you know, New York City is a lot different than where I grew up, than the farm I grew up on, than even the school I went to, the college I went to. But for the first couple of years of living in New York, I was working in conservative [00:17:00] talk radio. I moved to New York City to work for the biggest news talk radio station at that time in the country. And so I was like, you know, kind of living this, the secret agent life of infiltrating the East coast, but remaining true to my values and really, you know, championing my values.

Sy Hoekstra: You're a missionary. [All chuckle]

Chuck Armstrong: And so then, as I left that job and went to work for another radio company, much healthier for me and a much, much better experience, and then when I left that company and went into vocational ministry, then it started, it began, well, you know, I'm still championing my values, but these are my Christian values. These are the values of my faith. And so it was just sort of a different celebration because still, [00:18:00] a Christian in New York City, the stereotype would be, yeah, you're a missionary. And as that sort of, as I began to process that and discern exactly what I felt God was calling me to, and that really led me, with all that had proceeded me, really led me into really committing my life to social justice, to justice work, to anti-racism. So then I began to really embody, I think what some of my friends, some of my family maybe had been, I don't want to say worried about, but you know, what they had kind of stereotyped New York City as.

And so all that to be said, I still text with my dad regularly. We talk about music. We talk about movies. I will be honest, in the last four years though, we really don't talk about politics or issues like that. And that's not [00:19:00] all on him. I have a hard time, I think, talking to him about that. And I blow up, I get angry. I, you know, I get kind of short-tempered with some of those conversations. And so just, you know, kind of organically, we have stopped talking about those things. Which, as you can imagine me working in conservative talk radio previously, it's all we talked about. And so it's, you know, definitely, I haven't lost my dad. Like I said, we're still, we still talk. We're still close, but, you know, Jonathan, to your point, we separate these things in our lives and in our relationship now, which is a true privilege that I'm able to do that as a white man. And that I don't have to talk about these things if I don't want to with family or with whomever.

And, you know, along the way, I've definitely, I've been, you know, called out [00:20:00] for talking too much about justice from the pulpit or talking too much about politics when I don't need to be talking about that in church. And so, you know, I strained relationships, strained friendships. Absolutely. I'm, you know, I have to imagine that I've lost, or I've never even had the opportunity to fundraise with some people or some groups because of that public commitment to anti-racism and that kind of thing. But I'm also not going to, you know, to be totally frank, I'm not gonna say that, you know, “Woe is me and man, I'm really suffering, guys” because all of this, I keep saying it, but all of this is such a privilege for me as a white man to be able to do this. And yeah, and so I am very aware of, you know, the price that I pay [00:21:00] for leaning into this, for dedicating my life to this. And I am also, I strive every day to be more and more aware of still just how little that costs me compared to so many others around me.

Jonathan Walton: Thanks. Thanks for sharing about your family and being honest about that. I appreciate that.

Chuck Armstrong: Yeah, it's, and I love my family and I'm, if they hear this, I'm sure they'll, you know, not appreciate me talking about it, but, you know, I just, I truly believe as a pastor, but even more than that as a human being, as a neighbor, as a brother and as a son and as a father and as a husband, I think the most we can do is be transparent and be honest. And I don't think any form of repentance, whether it's about, you know, your own history of [00:22:00] racism like I have, or just, you know, about a small thing- I don't think there's any form of repentance that truly comes without transparency; transparency before ourselves, before our community, before God.

And so, you know, if my form of transparency is maybe overly public, my hope and my prayer is that it might anger and confuse some people, but man, I hope it encourages and pushes other people to be bold in their own repentance and in their own transparency.

Sy Hoekstra: Can I ask briefly, it sounds like, so you have had lots of conversations with your dad about this stuff, and at some point it became no longer productive. And the reason I ask this question is because I think a lot of, you know, a lot of people might hear- I've run up against this with friends or family of mine too- like, you know, one of the kind of critiques of sort of, uh, [00:23:00] white people who are trying to be progressive, but like, aren't talking to their own families about stuff, right.

Like People are like, “Oh, so you're the one who has the in, and you're not doing anything. And you know, you're not stewarding your privilege and your insider status and all that stuff.” And I'm just wondering how much you've, I assume that you have thought about that. And I'm wondering if you could talk about that balance a little bit, because it is hard, but I also find myself wanting to, you know, press into that critique a little bit.

Chuck Armstrong: Yeah, no, yeah. And I appreciate that. And I'll take that. I'll take that critique. You know, I’ll say that…

Sy Hoekstra: I don't know your circumstances, right. So I'm not saying you did bad. [Chuck and Sy chuckle]

Chuck Armstrong: No, but it's, it's still worth, you know, acknowledging and discussing. And, you know, to be honest, yeah, I mean my own circumstances, it's not like it was an overnight thing. And so, what I have learned in my own [00:24:00] journey, is that things take time. And I think about kind of the beginning point of my, you know, what I say is deconstruction- and I know that can be a loaded term sometimes, but I also don't know why cause it's a very simple term to me- but just, deconstructing, you know, taking apart my past, putting it back together. And, you know, I started that about eight or nine years ago. And ten years ago, if I heard a pastor say “Black Lives Matter” from the pulpit, I would've rolled my eyes. Man, I would've sent probably a snarky email. I would've, you know, maybe confronted him and called him out. And now ten years later, I am that guy, yeah. Like I, and I'm getting snarky emails and I'm getting called out.

But, and so I say all that meaning, yeah, like, you certainly don't know [00:25:00] everybody's circumstances. I have not flipped a switch saying like I'm done with my family. I truly believe that God is working. And, uh, and he's going to work on his own schedule. And if it took me eight, nine years to get to the point where I feel comfortable enough to write my story down, it can, you know, it might take longer for some other people. And it's pushed me into more of a posture of grace.

All that being said, I also, I am reminded of something Jemar Tisby wrote in his new book, How to Fight Racism. And he just, he really emphasizes patience and prayer. He gives a lot of tips on how to, you know, to talk to people who you disagree with politically, especially as it relates to racial justice. But at the end of the day, it has to be [00:26:00] rooted in patience and prayer. And so that's something I have to remind myself too. So maybe I'm not confronting my dad today on this. Am I praying? Am I praying for my dad about this? Am I praying for my relationship with my dad about this? I think that's, those are the kinds of things too, that I'm trying to push myself into. Uh, yeah. So, but I, you know, so I really do appreciate that and yeah, everybody's circumstances are different. But again, like not to throw that word out, but, you know, what a sincere privilege of mine to be able to do all of this and to say like, “I'm going to talk about XYZ today, I'm not going to talk about it tomorrow,” and my life doesn't change a whole lot. And so I recognize that.

Sy Hoekstra: And I just want to thank you for being, like we just pushed you pretty hard on some very personal stuff. So I really appreciate the transparency. It's not every day where we, that you can hear, [00:27:00] you know, an honest reflection on something like that. And so we really appreciate it.

Chuck Armstrong: Yeah. Someone said to me, you know, “What is Christianity, if not transparency?” and I've been thinking a lot about that.

And so, you know, I want to, I obviously want to respect and love those around me. But also I believe God's put a call on me to really dedicate my life to justice work, to striving toward justice. And so if that means I'm uncomfortable, others might be uncomfortable, that is a pretty small, small cost.

Jonathan Walton: That question is real and valid. Like, why don't you do that, right?

Sy Hoekstra: Wait, why don't you do what?

Jonathan Walton: I’m sorry- so why don't you confront your family member, who you're in relationship with all the time, right?

Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.

Jonathan Walton: And leverage that privilege and authority or relationship for me. Cause that's an emotional ask, right? Like I feel dismissed. I feel [00:28:00] hurt. Why didn't you fight for me, right? That's an emotional, that's a visceral desire for us to be protected, right? In that space that I will never sit across from and be taken seriously, but you're there, right?

But I think the pastoral word there, you know, is that confrontation without formation is destructive.

Chuck Armstrong: Yeah.

Jonathan Walton: Right? And so, but confrontation with formation is lovingly disruptive, right? And so being able to have that conversation with your dad or have that conversation with your mom in a way that is loving, requires the prayer and the patience that Jemar is talking about.

Chuck Armstrong: Yeah, yeah.

Jonathan Walton: Otherwise, we could destroy the shalom that God was working in. Because like, you know, you have kids and if you weren't talking to your child for years, [00:29:00] there is not a day you would not think about that child, right? They engage with that child. So even if, for people who are listening, who are like, you know, like why can't we talk with our parents? Like, God is working on the people who love us when we live differently from the ways they brought us up. Like, you know, I think you have to trust Him with it. And like my mom, I did not know that my mom started reading devotionals because she heard me and my brother started going to InterVarsity. I didn't know that. I found the devotional when she was dying from cancer that my brother gave her like a decade earlier, right. Like that we, these, we don't know all the things that are happening.

And so for the angry, upset people who desire to be seen and felt and heard, and by someone with the ultimate privilege, born into all that is good, I would say look to Jesus because he had that right, and then gave that up for us. And so, but in the [00:30:00] confrontation I really think we need to be formed before we have those confronting conversations in that, and that takes time. And it's good to take that time, but then to take the opportunity when Jesus says to go.

Chuck Armstrong: Amen. Yeah, I heard a good, no, I heard a good word from, a dear sister recently and she said, “The Spirit calls us to convict those around us and not condemn those around us.” And I've been thinking a lot about that. Just this idea of conviction versus condemnation and Jonathan, I think what everything you just said really speaks to that.

Suzie Lahoud: Yeah, that was really good, yeah, wisdom and also accountability, I think. Yeah, and I just want to say again, Chuck, just reiterate, thank you for sharing so openly. I think it's so refreshing and so important because I feel like there are so many folks who can probably relate to your story and are on a similar journey right now, but maybe haven't even progressed as far as you have and [00:31:00] what strikes me is part of what's so remarkable about this process of, you know, as you referred to it, deconstruction, which again, I acknowledge that that's sort of a loaded term right now, but I think I understand what you're referring to- and I think it's remarkable that you've managed to go through that and still maintain your faith in Christ and so sort of not throw out the baby with the bath water. And disentangle some of this idolatry and unhealthiness and some of these lies from the real message of Christ and the real teaching of Christ and to come out in a more authentic, you know, what I think we would say is a more authentic place of really living for the Kingdom.

And so, as someone who's been through that process, first of all, I'm just curious to hear, you've kind of alluded to that throughout the interview, but what sort of prompted that initially? You talk about a change in geographic location, but that it's, it would be reductive and simplistic to [00:32:00] just point to that. Obviously there were things that happened that set you on this journey. And so yeah, what prompted you to rethink your politics and its relationship to your faith and what steps have you taken personally, to really go through that process of essentially, sort of the renewing of your mind, I think, in reshaping your thinking, since you left the world of conservative talk radio and the politics that you so strongly professed at the time?

Chuck Armstrong: [chuckles] Yeah. You know, I wish I had like a step-by-step guide that captured everything I did.

Suzie Lahoud: [laughs] We do too!

Chuck Armstrong: Cause it wasn't like that. It wasn't, you know, it wasn't like I woke up one day and I thought, “All right, you know what? I'm going to read this book,” or “I'm going to listen to this,” or “I'm going to quit this job because I'm so, you know, I'm so against this.” Though I did change my [00:33:00] job, you know, they had, it wasn't quite as, um, I wasn't quite as, uh, I wasn't being quite the activist that, you know, I probably wished I looked like taking a stand or anything like that, but I think God used a lot of those things, a lot of the things you mentioned kind of behind the scenes without me knowing it.

So yeah, definitely a geographical change, a location change, was, you know, part of the journey, moving from Kansas to New York City. And not just the geographical change, but, you know, when my wife and I moved here, we had zero friends, we had zero family. And so there was a sincere sort of just assessment of what community means. What is community? What does that, what does that look like? And, you know, community in New York City is, it looks a lot different than Kansas.

Sy Hoekstra: Than anything.

Chuck Armstrong: You know, truly, than [00:34:00] anything. And you can either avoid it, you can either try to manufacture your own community, or you can say this is the world in which God has placed me now and I'm going to celebrate it. And so that was, so God used people around me and I don't just mean like, “Oh, now all of a sudden I had a Black friend and this friend and that friend.” Like yeah, all of a sudden diversity was around me in ways that I had never experienced in my life, but it was how these people pushed me and convicted me.

I distinctly remember- and I kind of alluded to this in the article, and this was probably one of the turning points in my life- I was walking with a friend. We were in a small group together and he and I, we had done like a Bible study together. We were just really tight. And we were walking down Amsterdam on the Upper West Side and it was the day after Osama bin Laden was killed and [00:35:00] I remember him talking just so clearly about how disgusted he was at seeing clips on the television of Times Square erupting in applause and cheers and celebration.

And, you know, it's this idea of being able to critically think that you can hold in one hand, you know, the heinous acts of Osama bin Ladin and you can lament that, right? You don't, you're not justifying anything. But you can also hold in the other hand that celebrating and cheering for the death of an image bearer is also not a good thing and not something we should celebrate. And I had never thought about that. I never ever thought about holding things like that in tension. And for whatever reason, it was like an Acts 2 sermon, when he said that it pierced my heart and, and it just, it made me begin to [00:36:00] rethink how I view justice, injustice, what I would, you know, what I would claim to be victory, how I view victory, how I view all of these things.

And in that instance, it was, it's obviously connected to patriotism, right? And the country, and that kind of thing. And so I think that also began to sort of push against the politics of my life and the things that I was listening to every day, and you know, my job that I, that I was going into every day. And so I think that was truly a turning point. And from there, I also, and I think I maybe mentioned this in the article too, I'm not sure, but I also, around the same time began to read a little more and learn a little more about, you know, this whole faith and work movement and what it means to be a Christian in the workplace and all of that. I never really gave that much thought prior to moving to New York.

And, you know, not that that [00:37:00] movement or those ministries are perfect by any means, but it began to push me to think, how am I listening to this radio, to these shows and not just listening, but like truly kind of being part of the ecosystem, and then going to church on Sundays and listening about this Christ? And then going to small group and, you know, being in community with such a beautiful group of men and women- how do I reconcile these things? And so, it just, it kinda broke me. It just kind of like really chipped away at me and at everything I held, everything I had, I found my value in. I moved to New York City for this job. I moved to New York City for this, you know? And here I am thinking like, “Wait a second, maybe I, at least the way I'm wired, maybe I can't hold these things in tension. And maybe I need to, uh, to move [00:38:00] on.”

And so, you know, I would say that, that the friend of mine, you know, really beginning to understand this idea of faith and work theology, which I admit, you know, my own understanding of it was far from perfect or anything like that, but, and then from there it was just, it was just leaning into it and it was not avoiding it. And it was thinking like, you know what? It's okay if I grew up a Republican and had super conservative views. It's okay if I've changed a little. It's okay if I want to abolish the death penalty now, as opposed to, you know, thinking eye for an eye and all of that, and thinking, you know, if, you know, if you're a criminal, you're going to get caught and you pay the penalty and that's as simple and clear cut as our justice system is, you know? I started thinking, “Well, wait a second, maybe it's not. And maybe it's okay that I change my views and I read about things that challenge those views.”

And so it was just this whole journey of that and [00:39:00] that all of that coincided with me going to seminary. And then, you know, sitting in seminary classes with men and women in New York City from incredibly different backgrounds, all of us processing, you know, theology and history differently and together, really pushed me deeper and deeper into it as well. And so probably a turning point in that moment was in an ecclesiology class, I wrote a paper about the ecclesiological implications of racial reconciliation. And so that was trying to unpack this idea of, well, okay, you're a church or you're a denomination and you repent and you acknowledge and you pursue reconciliation. What are the actual implications for your church because of that?

And I won't let you read the paper cause it's, [00:40:00] you know, it was like, I, you know, it was like my first year in seminary, so it's not great, but it pushed me to read books like Divided by Faith and other things where I began to like really see all of these things that I think I was wrestling with in my head and in my heart and with my community. Now I'm seeing like, “Oh, here's a sociological work on this, on the systemic injustice that has proceeded me. Oh, here's the history of this,” that kind of thing. And so, yeah. It's, you know, it's a weird twisty-turny journey for sure. But that kind of answers your question, Suzie, in a pretty convoluted way, I fear. So…

Suzie Lahoud: No, it does, cause really I was just asking what that journey has looked like. So I appreciate you not trying to reduce it to a simple, you know, four-step program. Um, yeah. Thank you. That rings really true.

So as a pastor, do [00:41:00] you have thoughts on when folks should take the step of leaving a church over its handling of questions about race?

Chuck Armstrong: Yeah. I mean, I love the question. And I'll just say two things before I give the answer, cause apparently I really like to talk, and so I really like talking with you. But, you know, the first is, I don't think there's a formula for anybody. And so I think, you know, as has been discussed, we are all on different journeys. We don't know the circumstances. We don't know how God is working behind the scenes. And so there's just, I don't think there's a formula.

But the second thing I want to say is, I say that as a white man. And so I don't ever want to put anybody in a place where they feel like they should stay in an unhealthy environment, or in an environment where they're not, not only are they not being fed, [00:42:00] but perhaps they're being dehumanized in some way. You know, I don't ever want them to think like, “Well, I heard this pastor once say, you know, there's no formula. And so maybe I should stick around to see how God's working behind the scenes.” I just think, you know, I have to admit that if I'm talking about, when do you leave as a white man, the cost for me is much different.

And so, all that being said, I, man, that's, what a question! I would try to walk with someone else, whether it's inside the church or outside of the church, someone you trust that you can share exactly what's happening. That you can share, “This is the way my pastor is speaking,” “This is the way, you know, an elder has answered questions,” “This is, you know, the dehumanizing language that is used in small groups,” so [00:43:00] that you're not processing it by yourself, you're processing it in community so that you have support from someone you trust and someone you love and someone who loves you.

But truly, I think if the church is the gathering of the saints and, or if that's partly what church is, and it is also, you know, the gathering of God's people to welcome others in, right. You think of Acts 2, you think of the end of Acts 2 where the world takes notice, right? The world takes notice at what the church is doing, what this brand new community of God is doing as they're breaking bread, as they're sharing resources, as they're living together, as they're worshiping together. We're told that all, they found favor in everyone's eyes and the Lord added to their number daily.

And so, you know, if your church is doing the opposite [00:44:00] of that, where they're not holding you in favor, because they refuse to acknowledge very real objective things that are destroying your life or that are, that are seeking to destroy your life, your livelihood, I can't imagine what that would feel like, and to feel pressure to stay in that. I think there is a moment that you have to consider your own health, your own spiritual health, your own emotional health, and say farewell. I don't think God is calling me to remain in a toxic, dangerous environment. But maybe it's different if you're a white person and maybe you have more voice inside the church and maybe you are called to stay to try to steer the ship, as it were. I'm not sure. [00:45:00]

I have a hard time thinking about that too, because what I've heard from Jemar Tisby, he told me once that if by now this is- we talked, this was two days after the insurrection on the Capitol- so if by now your pastor, your church, your community group, whatever, if by now they're not talking about this, there's not much hope. If by now, if after last year, if after George Floyd, if after Ahmaud Arbery, if after Breonna Taylor, if after all of this they're still saying, “Well, I can't speak into this because I don't know enough about this,” or “I'm just going to preach the gospel” or whatever, I don't know what it would take for them to, for that church to change its [00:46:00] direction.

And so I think that is, if I could, that is maybe one of the benefits of all of the terrible, terrible destructive things we have seen in the last 12 months is that we can clearly see how God is using people and how people are being faithful to what God is doing or how they're not being faithful to the work that God has called them to. And so we should take notice of that, I think. And I think that should definitely be a significant part, a primary part in our discernment to whether we should leave or not.

Sy Hoekstra: All that was great. I really liked the point about having someone from the outside to talk to that you said at the beginning, just because I think that's kind of a dynamic, you know, it's just going to be easier for someone who's outside of your situation to see clearly what's [00:47:00] happening, right? Like it would be the same in any like personal relationship that has become like toxic or abusive, and it's going to be the same thing in a church setting, right? People who are looking at it from the outside are just going to give you insight that you otherwise don't have. So people that you trust and who are wise. I think that's, I just want to emphasize how important that is in addition to everything else you said, which is also important.

Jonathan, do you want to do… I want to know the answer to the just preach the gospel question.

Suzie Lahoud: Yeah, I was thinking about that too…

Jonathan Walton: So I, oh man, how do I even frame this question? If someone, you know, you're back in that church in Kansas and they say to you like, “Hey Chuck, I've known you since you were a kid, like, why don't you just preach the gospel?”

Chuck Armstrong: Whew. Um, yeah, I mean, I think, you know, the kind of, the smart [00:48:00] aleck in me wants to say, “Well, I am just preaching the gospel, come on brother/ come on sister!”

But truly, you know, I would, I think, I would ask them, and I'm curious about this actually, I would ask them, what does that mean? Because I have been, you know, I've preached, not at our church plant- our church plant, you know, is obviously very publicly anti-racist- but I've preached elsewhere and I've brought up slavery or I brought up internment camps in America, I brought up, uh, early on in COVID I preached and I included some illustrations of the anti-Asian racism that was occurring at the beginning of the pandemic. And I would receive emails or things like that saying just that, you know, that has no place in the, from the pulpit. You can talk about it on [00:49:00] Facebook. You can, you know, talk about it over coffee, but not from the pulpit. You just need to be preaching the gospel. And when I push and I asked, “Well, what does that mean to you? What does it mean to just preach the gospel?” I have to be honest, and I'm not saying, you know, this is, I'm not implicating anybody, I've never really gotten an answer to that.

And so I, and so I take that as sort of affirmation to, this isn't, on some level, they are just repeating something they have heard elsewhere. So you mentioned, you know, you used the word disciple- they have been discipled elsewhere by a Ben Shapiro, by a Jordan Peterson, by a fill in the blank. And they have heard this phrase, “Just preach the gospel,” or they have heard this boogie man of critical race theory, or whatever you want to say, and when you're, [00:50:00] when pushed into that, it's sort of, there’s sort of an admission that, well, yeah, I guess you are preaching the gospel. I just don't like the politics in it. And that's what it gets down to.

And so when I have- and I'm not saying I do this perfectly when I preach or anything like that- but one word of advice that has been given to me is that Christians should be more and more political. We should not be partisan. And so we should not be scared of being political. In fact, we should welcome the opportunities to be political. We should not welcome the opportunities to be partisan. And so those conversations, you know, they’re had, and I think what I realize is the criticism that I receive for being partisan is actually a very, very partisan critique.

And where they've been discipled is very, very [00:51:00] partisan and it's not rooted in the gospel. It's not rooted in the Bible. It's rooted in something that they've heard, something that they've been told. And so I think, you know, for me, and I'm saying this as much to myself as I am to anybody listening- I think, you know, I think that's, if someone says that to you, what an incredible opportunity to ask them what that means and to have a conversation and to maybe push back on something that has been discipled into them. And maybe asking that question, maybe just asking them, what do you mean by that? Is going to push them to more critically think about that, about that phrase, about why they were angry from what they heard from the pulpit in the first place.

Jonathan Walton: That, uh, so just as a follow-up comment, it sounds like what you're talking about is a radical differentiation, right? So you, like hearing, “What is the gospel?” or “Just preach the gospel,” could be heard as an [00:52:00] attack as a speaker, as a teacher, a leader. Someone coming to me as a preacher of the gospel, as an evangelist, like your question, I would feel my integrity is questioned. Like, what do you mean I'm not doing, you know? But it sounds like what you're saying, there's a patient response that is a product of being differentiated from the message in a healthy way. That is, I mean, I would like to be mature in that way, in these moments.

Chuck Armstrong: Me too, brother. [Chuck & Jonathan laugh]

Jonathan Walton: Willie Jennings talks about the- Dr. Willie Jennings at Yale Divinity School and now formerly at Duke- he said, you know, there's a jousting that happens intellectually downstream of the Enlightenment, right? Like Western thought where it's like, well, I've got to beat you in this argument.

Chuck Armstrong: That's [00:53:00] right. That's right.

Jonathan Walton: But in that moment, it's not about winning the argument. It's about Jesus being Lord and being understood. I appreciate that answer a lot.

Chuck Armstrong: Well, yeah. You know, you mentioned Dr. Jennings and he, you know, he says critique should always aim at communion and that is hard to embody. It's hard to embrace, but you know, if you, if you think about, yeah, if you think about that question or why someone's asking this, you know. Okay, maybe they're critiquing you to tear you down, but, you know, we're in a position then that we could critique back or we could push back with the hope, with the intent of communion with one another. And that might be an idealistic, lofty goal. But man, what a beautiful picture of everything you just said, Jonathan.

Jonathan Walton: Amen. Amen.

Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, this has been [00:54:00] great Chuck. We really appreciate you coming on the show and sharing your wisdom with us, and just, thank you so much from all of us.

Chuck Armstrong: Yeah, I mean, seriously, what a privilege. Thank you so much for having me.

[“Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in briefly, then fades out.] 

Sy Hoekstra: Thanks so much for listening, and please remember to subscribe to this podcast and rate and review it wherever you are listening. Follow us on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook @KTFPress. Our theme song is citizens by Jon Guerra. Our podcast art is by Jacqueline Tam and we will see you next week!

[“Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades back in. Lyrics: “Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” Song fades out.]  

Jonathan Walton: Today we're interviewing Chuck Col… not Chuck Colson [Sy laughs]…sorry! [Jonathan laughs]

[00:55:00] Sy Hoekstra: Today, back from the dead, is Chuck Colson! [Jonathan & Sy laughing hysterically]  

Suzie Lahoud: Wow… Y'all did not tell me necromancy was part of this. [Sy laughs]

Jonathan Walton: Wow… all right. That was a deep cut there… alright.

Sy Hoekstra: We have done a séance, and Chuck Colson is here with us today.

Jonathan Walton: We recorded it over Zoom, cuz Zoom can do that. It's actually a portal. Please light your incense before we begin [Suzie laughing in the background]. Charge your crystals in a warm place for 14 days, beginning at the solstice and ending at…

Sy Hoekstra: No, no…

In this first of our bonus episodes, the team discusses the American church’s unfortunate tendency to consume and exploit the trauma of other people for purposes of entertainment, fundraising, politics, cheap spiritual edification, and more. They also talk about how to avoid using people’s experiences in this way. Thanks for subscribing, and we hope you enjoy! 

Shake the Dust is a podcast of KTF Press. Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Find transcripts of this show at KTFPress.com. 

Hosts: 

Jonathan Walton – follow him on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter.  

Suzie Lahoud – follow her on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter.  

Sy Hoekstra – follow him on Twitter.  

Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra – listen to the whole song on Spotify. 

Our podcast art is by Jacqueline Tam – follow her and see her other work on Instagram.  

Shake the Dust is produced and edited by Sy Hoekstra. 

Questions about anything you heard on the show? Write to [email protected] and we may answer your question on a future episode.

Transcript 

[00:00:00] Suzie Lahoud: I had a pastor who used to talk about how we tend to demonize the people that we most idolized. And so I think a lot of times too, it becomes this vicious cycle where you have folks who have been through a lot and it's really moving to hear about their experiences and their journeys, but they're also then dealing with a lot. They have a lot of healing to do. They have a lot to work through and that can come out in the messiness of their lives, but there's no grace for that. We don't make space for that. And once those things start to come out, they get written off by, you know, whatever church or organization they were then leading in. And I think that's on us.

[The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/That it will roll in abundance/ And that you’re building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.]   

Sy Hoekstra: Welcome everybody to our first bonus episode of Shake the Dust, leaving colonized faith for the [00:01:00] Kingdom of God, a podcast of KTF Press. I'm Sy Hoekstra here with Jonathan Walton and Suzie Lahoud. This is one of the occasional bonus episodes that we're going to do on this subscribers only feed. Welcome, and thank you so much for subscribing. We really, really appreciate it.

Today, we're just going to have a little bit of a conversation about the ways in which Christians consume trauma as a product. It started from just a brief joke that Sandra Maria Van Opstal made when we were interviewing her about the different ways that we were asking her about all the kinds of trauma that she's had as a woman of color leader in the church, but it got us on actually kind of a serious conversation that we decided to stop and have on mic.

So we're talking about Christians, like I said, consuming trauma as a product. Like it's something that we commodify and use for entertainment, and we want to talk about how we do that and the ways in which we can sort of get out of that cycle. So Suzie, I think you kind of started off our conversation by talking about the [00:02:00] perspective of Middle Eastern Christians that you interacted with when you were living in Lebanon. Could you just tell us a little bit about what you heard while you were over there about how American Christians treat trauma?

Suzie Lahoud: In the interview with Sandra Maria Van Opstal, I was the one who sort of asked her if she would be willing to expand a little bit on some of the trauma and difficult experiences she’d alluded to earlier in the interview. And then, like Sy said, she kind of made a joke about how we were digging into all her trauma and, uh, she was very gracious about it, but it suddenly hit me, oh my gosh, in the professional context that I come from in the humanitarian space, you don't ever ask someone directly to go into all of that, and if you know you're going to touch on it, you need to have a trained mental health professional on site because you're really asking someone to dig into painful areas of their lives that manifest in so many complex ways. [00:03:00] And you need to take that seriously. That is sacred ground that you don't have the privilege to have access to unless that person graciously decides to give you that access.

And so that was where we got onto this kind of more serious conversation after finishing up the podcast. And yeah, so one experience I had in Lebanon while I was living there, was at a conference, I want to say around eight years ago, and it was, the speaker was a man who had come to faith in Christ. He was born into a Muslim family, grew up in the Muslim faith and then came to faith through missionaries from a big kind of Christian missions organization, and then had to leave his country of origin because of death threats and really serious persecution that he was facing and went on to become an academic who specializes in sort of religious conflict around the world.

And he shared [00:04:00] about how Christians, particularly evangelicals, particularly in the United States, we have this sort of obsession with the trauma that Middle Eastern Christians face. And we want to hear their stories. And we want to hear about all of the gritty details of the things that they've experienced, but then we don't want to deal with the fallout of that.

So we're not prepared to deal with challenges that they're now facing physically or mentally or emotionally. We're not prepared to offer them the services that they need, to even offer them the grace that they need. We just want their stories and then to be able to say “hallelujah” over it. And so he said that, and it just really struck me.

And I know even in my sort of close circle of folks that I'm connected to in Lebanon, there's one individual I thought of in particular who was tortured for his faith as a young man and [00:05:00] never fully recovered from that. I mean, he sort of, um, he's a very different person today than he was then, mentally and emotionally. And that's something that, you know, his family has had to deal with. And I just think that we don't talk about that enough. We don't talk about the fact that these are real people with real lives, and we need to see them as whole human beings. I think we want to just put them on a pedestal and to benefit from what they have to share, but are we willing to embrace them in all of their humanity?

Sy Hoekstra: Can you, you had also talked about ways in which your parents experienced this kind of commoditization of trauma when they were fundraising in the US for their, I guess, were they evangelistic efforts in Lebanon? I'm not sure actually what your parents were… no, sorry. Not in Lebanon, in Uzbekistan.

Suzie Lahoud: Yeah. So, I know I mentioned this in our first podcast, but I grew up in Uzbekistan. I lived there from age 8 to 18 [00:06:00] with my family. My parents were missionaries doing sort of underground church planting there. It’s a country where it was illegal at the time to be doing any sort of work like that.

And so we had a really traumatic experience where, I won't go into all the details, but essentially what happened was our home was broken into in the middle of the night by masked men with hatchets and they really severely beat my parents. My mom almost died. Thankfully they were using the blunt end of the hatchet, but yeah, I don't think I need to go into much more detail to give a sense of just how horrific and scary that was. And after that, it was interesting, we had to come back to the States for my mom's medical treatment and folks in the US and in churches just wanted to hear the story of what we'd been through.

And this continues to this day. A lot of times when my folks get invited to speak [00:07:00] places, I feel like sometimes that's almost all that people want to hear, which upsets me cause I think, you know, they have so much more to offer than just that. But it's not just that it's, you know… Immediately after that happened, I remember my mom sharing and she was still recovering at this point. I mean, she had some pretty serious brain, she had a brain injury that she was recovering from. Her arm had been pretty badly broken. I mean, miraculously, she survived, but she was sharing at this one Christian event and a woman came up to her afterwards and said, “You know, I was just so relieved hearing your story. It wasn't as bad as I thought it was.”

And I just thought, “That's not something you say to someone who's been through something like that, even, especially recently, and is still recovering.” But also, I think it just speaks to this broader culture that we see, again, particularly in white American evangelicalism, where we want to get into all of the gruesome details and we want that, almost [00:08:00] sort of shock value, and we judge and compare different people's stories of suffering and persecution. And like Sy was saying, we just sort of consume that for our own sort of, you know, we claim spiritual edification and benefit.

And what was striking to me in contrast was that when we went back to Uzbekistan a year later, the folks in the church there, they never asked us to tell them the story of what happened. They never asked us for the details. They didn't need to know. It was enough that they knew that it happened. And for them, it was also kind of like, well, welcome to the club. Because all of them had some sort of story of, you know, suffering, physical persecution, you know, rape, violence, being arrested. All of them had, you know, at some point lost family members. So it just, they knew that they didn't need to dig into that for it to be valid and to be important. But also they just wanted to [00:09:00] support us. And I think that, that again, that just speaks to the fact that we need to embrace people in those moments and not make it about us and what we want to get out of their stories.

Sy Hoekstra: I think that that last point is really important because I do think that there's a weird tendency among American evangelicals to identify with Christians who are being persecuted around the world, even though we are not being persecuted to, arguably any degree, but certainly to, not to any degree that they are. And it sort of benefits us, politically speaking, to identify with those people because it sort of reinforces our sense of embattlement, right. That we're being sieged by the culture around us, and that we too, like all these Christians around the world, are being persecuted and need to fight back against the forces that are trying to harm us. Even though the forces that are trying to harm us, you know, an atheist professor thinks [00:10:00] you're sort of backwards and uneducated or whatever, you know what I mean? Like it just isn't remotely comparable, but because that's the narrow lens through which we're seeing a lot of this persecution, we don't then identify or seem to have a lot of empathy for the type of persecution that isn't strictly because you're a missionary or because you're a Christian, and a lot of that persecution that happens to Christians around the world, that just happens because they are part of some ethnic group or existing under some dictatorial regime or whatever, a lot of that is caused by us, right. By the United States and by the policies that American evangelicals support. And so I just, it's all tied up in our political idolatry in a way that's kind of gross.

Jonathan Walton: Yeah. I think the, well, what stands out to me is, it is this trauma as a product that's marketed, right? And many churches, like it's a big-time Sunday when you bring somebody in who's been through something to give a testimony, right? [00:11:00] For Christianity to maintain its attractiveness, it latches itself onto, uh, latches itself onto an identification with oppressed people. Because if we're not identified with oppressed people, then we have to be identified with the oppressor, which means we can't be identified with Jesus. And I think there's extreme resistance in Christianity, at least American evangelicalism right now, and I would dare say like colonial Christianity in general, to say, “No, we are Babylon.”

Sy Hoekstra: That also plays heavily in general into how white Americans think of ourselves, right, as the underdog who revolted against the King of England, right. As opposed to the massive slave society that displaced an entire race of people, and then, you know, made all of our fortune on the backs of people that we were oppressing. We obviously prefer the underdog narrative and we always have.

Jonathan, you had told us about a [00:12:00] survivor of sex trafficking, who you know who goes around talking about the ways that her trauma is commoditized. Can you talk a little bit about that too? Because I think this is maybe something that people will be familiar with.

Jonathan Walton: Yeah, absolutely. And I, I'm having like flashbacks as we're talking, because I, being, you know, on staff with a campus ministry, operating in evangelical spaces, operating and partnering with evangelical nonprofits that are actively raising money for people who are suffering, the testimony is the thing that we all quote unquote want, right? We want the person that went through it, even so much to the point that people are willing to lie about it. To create stories and narratives, write books, get contracts, speak around the country because there are millions of people in the United States right now with their book clubs and organizations that are willing to put somebody up front and say, “Tell us a terrible story.”

Sy Hoekstra: Has that happened in the space of sex trafficking?

Jonathan Walton: Yes, [00:13:00] absolutely. Yes it has. And so, um, there's no need to name names about these people, but basically, one of the people that I'm, you know, very close friends with and because of COVID and circumstances, I haven't talked with her in a long time, but we talk online and her name is Shandra Wowowruntu. She started an organization called Mentari. She's a wonderful, wonderful woman of God. I share about her story in my book, 12 Lies.

And I distinctly remember she and I having a conversation one day where she said, you know, “I'm going to be paid $200 to come and share, and I'm sitting next to a professor who is going to get $1,000 or $2,000 to share,” right? And she goes like, “Whose message is more important in this conversation?” Like, you know, what do people need to hear and want to hear and need to understand about, you know, what she would say was her situation. And that stuck with me because I've [00:14:00] been in these spaces where we're just like, “Can we get a survivor?” and then we take her or him around like, to all the different spaces so that people can, so that the people sitting in the room can actually understand that the thing is real for this person, like, this happens to real people.

But the flip side of that I think is we don't put this person up front to be empowered and to be loved and to be seen and heard and understood and walk them into community. We put them up as a tool to get the people in the room to respond to something. And that's where I think the commodification happens.

It's the consumption of this person's story. There's a financial transaction that happens. There's exchange of money. And then we go on to the next thing. And I distinctly remember- and I think I carry some guilt about this- during, we had a series of events in New York city. [00:15:00] There were 116 events over two weeks on 18 campuses in New York city, North Jersey, and Long Island to fight sex trafficking and labor exploitation and raise support for organizations locally and globally that were engaged in, quote unquote, like setting people free from physical and spiritual oppression. Just this big, this big campaign. Bloomberg gave us an award and all these different things. And, but there was one young woman who is an activist and a survivor. And there was a pretty intense experience after she shared at one of our events. And I asked if anyone wanted to pray for her. And everyone decided to pray for her.

Sy Hoekstra: And she hadn't asked for prayer.

Jonathan Walton: No, she, she did. She said yes. Now granted, could she have felt pressured to say yes in that moment? It's very much [00:16:00] possible. She asked, we asked, we agreed that there's, there's going to be a prayer time and she is weeping.

And at the end of the talk, she said, “You know, Jonathan, is this is how you get down?” I was like, “Absolutely. Like, we just, we want to be able to support the people who are out there actually doing the work.” And I said to her, I said, “You know, if you ever, you’re ever traveling somewhere,” I said, “I know people all over the world.” I said, “If you're ever traveling somewhere and you want people to support you, to be there for you, like I will call people and make sure folks are there to pray and there to support.” And at first, like I thought that was a good thing. You know, she was responsive and things like that. But whenever I saw her in person after that, it felt like there was a guardedness, because something had been shared that was vulnerable, that wasn't necessarily supposed to be, or needed to be shared.

Sy Hoekstra: And then a lot of people fixated on it.

Jonathan Walton: And then a lot of people fixated on it. So the reality is, [00:17:00] there are people from that campaign of work that we did, and then the subsequent work that I did through our program, that are doing transformative, sustainable work against sex trafficking and labor exploitation, like all over the world. Like that's true.

At the same time, I, as we have these conversations about the commodification of trauma and trauma as a product and all of that, I can't help but ask, like at what cost did that come? Even to the point of, there was an activist that I knew from Zambia. And in Zambia, they do not speak with clicks. It's Xhosa in South Africa where they speak with clicks. But someone came up to him at an event and was like, “Can you do the clicking thing? Can you do that?” And so he said, sometimes he's tempted to do it, just to like, you know, make sure that people give more money. Like, what will the effect be there, right? It's like, you know, [00:18:00] here you have like a man made in the image of God from Zambia, like performing for white evangelicals in the United States in suburban New Jersey, right? For money, right?

It's just… so I, you know, as I'm talking, I realize my, you know, complicity and my part, as I'm talking, I'm reflecting on like my, you know, sometimes it'll happen to me, “But like, Jonathan, tell us that story of like, how you grew up!” right? Like, “What's it really like to be Black?” And like that happens over and over again. And so it's one of those things where like, you know, I wonder at what cost to the people who are sharing. Is it worth it for that, for the resources and for whatever you know, is supposedly supposed to come from it? And that's something I think I'm asking myself and I was asking myself that day after we talked with Reverend Van Opstal. 

Suzie Lahoud: Yeah, I mean, Jonathan, I feel like you [00:19:00] really highlighted something that I think is important to clarify, because when we talk about commodifying something, it, really, a good way that you can see that that's what's happening is that it is for, ultimately, money. To raise money, to gain funds.

And I think that's important to clarify just because it's not that folks shouldn't feel free to have the opportunity to share their stories. I think that there are a lot of folks out there who do want to be able to share their stories and know that there's power in that. I mean, you know, each of us, we have the stories that we've been given and that's something that we're called to steward and steward well. But at the same time, I think it's very telling that a lot of times where this happens is at, you know, fundraising events, is at missions weeks at churches, you know. It's organizations that are raising money for different causes and interest groups. And I [00:20:00] think that's where we need to be very careful that one, it's not just manipulative to the audience, and two, that it's not exploitative of the person who's sharing.

And I think it starts with first that awareness that there is a danger there that you're not going to do it well. And you need to be very careful because again, that's holy ground. That's someone's life. And you need to handle that with great reverence.

Sy Hoekstra: And I think just to lay everything out on the table, we're sitting here talking about our, well, mostly the two of your trauma, in various ways, you know, in a podcast that we're doing for our company.

So, but I think that means that the point you just made is important, right? We're not saying don't ever talk about your trauma. Like testimonies, testifying to what Jesus has done in your life, or, you know, discipleship, whatever, that's going to involve learning about some hard things that have happened to people, right. And we shouldn't [00:21:00] like paint over those things or, you know, try and make things, you know, flatten people's experiences.

I think the point that you're making is basically the difference between doing it well and doing it badly is pretty nuanced and subtle. And it's, you know, it's a lot about where your intentions are and what you're using people's stories for.

So I think that brings us into then talking about how we can avoid doing this badly. So, what are some thoughts that you all have on that?

Jonathan Walton: I recently had a conversation about, in a conference that we're organizing and someone shared that they did not want to be recorded. And the reason was that as an indigenous leader, knowledge is sacred to share with someone else, like a story is sacred. And so the thought of it being consumed later, and they're not even a part of it, like just [00:22:00] violated so many values for that person. And I wonder to myself, you know, as we're on this journey, I think we have to hold in tension how do I tell the story while honoring this person who’s sharing the story. And honoring the person who’s sharing and honoring the image of God and the dignity of the person that is bearing their soul to me is more important than what I want to do with that story.

And I think I experienced this as I wrote. I remember Jesus did something transformative in me when I would write the story of like Jacob, the child soldier from Invisible Children or Simon, a human trafficking survivor from the Sudan. And Jesus did something in me as I wrote their stories, but I was doing what they asked me to do with their stories.

Yeah, so at the end, at the end of every day, and [00:23:00] like the bottom line, I think is like, it is more important to honor the image of God and the intentions and desires of the person who is being vulnerable and allowing us into their world than it is for me to get the product that I want, the outcome that I want. Because the outcome that I actually want is for this person to feel loved, cared for cherished, treasured, all of that. Like that should actually be the goal that I would love my neighbor. Cause that's the commandment: to love my neighbor, not love the crowd. Because I do think when we're building something or when one is building an audience or a company or whatever the thing is, the next customer is more important than the one that you have. The next subscriber is the one you're looking at. The next interview is the person you're focused on. And I think so for us, there's a, I think there's a radical slowing down that has to happen.

Sy Hoekstra: I think another good point from what we've talked about is just being very [00:24:00] clear on what you value by thinking about where you're putting your money. So, you know, with Suzie saying like, or all of these examples of people who have to tell their traumatic stories because the more terrible the story is, the more money they get, right. I think as people, if you're someone who has the privilege of being someone who gives out the money to those, you know, to the causes that you appreciate, you need to be willing to do it to someone who's just doing good work, regardless of whether or not they are, you know, sort of dehumanizing themselves to the point where they are telling you this story in order to get your money.

Related to that too then I think, you know, having a very good, clear-eyed, realistic view of our privilege as Western Christians is also important and not, like I said, overestimating how much we're being persecuted or not, you know, failing to understand what it is that [00:25:00] our country and our politics do to contribute to other people's persecution so that, you know, just being able to have a clear picture of that, I think then will help us to, will just help us to fix our view of ourselves as being marginalized or persecuted because of our faith, when that is not in fact what happens in the ordinary course of things to American Christians.

Suzie Lahoud: I think too it's so much wrapped up in the decolonization of our faith in that it's moving away from this transactional view. I think what happens a lot of times is folks show up at these events and it's almost like you, it does sort of end up feeling a little bit like you're paying for an experience in that you choose to give because you are emotionally moved by something in the same way that you give money to go to see a movie that you expect will emotionally move you in some way.

[00:26:00] And you know, whether it's through shock or, you know, compassion or whatever, you're looking for something inside you to shift, but that's so self-centered. And so I think it's also moving away from this individualistic experience of our faith towards a communal, holistic, collective view of our faith, where it's not just about me and what I learned about God in this situation, because then it almost becomes a trade-off of this person is giving of themselves emotionally, they're pouring themselves out in a way that can actually be really painful so that you can receive emotionally, instead, it becomes about- I feel like I keep saying this over and over again- but really embracing that person into the community in a genuine way. So it's not just a one-off like, “Oh, that was great. Let us pray for you.” like Jonathan was sharing, but so it's really entering into relationship with that [00:27:00] person.

And I'm not saying, I realize that's not a realistic expectation that every time someone gets up in front of a crowd everyone's going to become their best friend. But just, you know, asking the question, “Does this person have the support that they need in the long run?” and not expecting them to be perfect just because they've been through some really hard things and have a powerful story to share. Because I think that's also what happens.

I had a pastor who used to talk about how we tend to demonize the people that we most idolized. And so I think a lot of times too, it becomes this vicious cycle where you have folks who have been through a lot and it's really moving to hear about their experiences and their journeys, but they're also then dealing with a lot. They have a lot of healing to do. They have a lot to work through and that can come out in the messiness of their lives, but there's no grace for that. We don't make space for that. And once those things start to come out, they get written off by, you know, whatever church or organization they were then leading in. [00:28:00] And I think that's on us. That's not on them.

Sy Hoekstra: I think that the last thing that I would say is probably making sure that our political advocacy involves advocating for people who are victims of harm, regardless of what type of harm that is; regardless of who caused the harm or how, whether or not that fits in with our, you know, preferred party’s agenda or whatever that is. That is a both sides of the aisle thing by the way. I know we talk a lot about conservatives or Republicans on this show, but anybody can do that. Anybody can ignore the harm of the people whose victimhood doesn't kind of fit with their narrative.

Suzie Lahoud: Sy, I think that's such an important point and the fact that yes, this is across the aisle. I just can't help thinking with everything, you know, going on in Israel and Palestine today, you know, it's so hypocritical of our government and [00:29:00] again, it doesn't matter what administration, that we, you know, call out that the persecution of the Uyghurs in Xinjiang, we talk about the Rohingya in Myanmar, but we're not willing to call out the ethnic cleansing that is currently happening in the Occupied Territories. So I think, yes, absolutely. That is across the board, something that we need to do better in.

Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, I'm always reminded of, in our book actually, I can't remember if it's Jessie Wheeler or MJ Bryant who just said like, to people in the Middle East, a Republican drone and a Democratic drone is still a drone, right. It's not different.

Okay, so we are going to end this kind of intense conversation with, I think, something that will probably help people process things a little bit. We're going to hear Jonathan Walton perform one of his poems that he does, although doesn't do as much anymore. This is not something that it's as easy to hear as it was, you know, ten [00:30:00] years ago.

But, so I guess just before we go again, thank you so much for listening. Thank you to you all who are hearing this for subscribing. Please remember to follow us @KTFPress on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook. And our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra. Our podcasts art is by Jacqueline Tam, and we will see you on Friday with our next episode.

So here's Jonathan's poem, it's called “River of Currency.” It was commissioned and written in 2007; commissioned by a group called Poetic People Power. Enjoy.

Jonathan Walton: I’m writing this poem for my momma

the public school teacher in LaCrosse, Virginia

who chose to teach kids, reach kids,

hold kids and mold kids into productive members

of a broken society while surviving on a salary below the line of poverty

I’m inscribing these lines for the

17 students at UVA who were

arrested for protesting for a living wage

not for themselves but for the workers who clean their dormitories

workers that aren't paid enough to be neighbors 

when they [00:31:00] work at one of the richest schools in the state

All they were asking for, in 2007, was for 10.72

that’s ten dollars and seventy-two cents

so that after taxes

they can barely break twenty thousand

I’m writing this poem for that dude

in the Merrill Lynch mailroom

who knows he’s bringing home

300 times less than the reigning CEO

I’m writing because there is a guy riding a bike

right now trying to get that Chinese food to the right place in less than 15 minutes

a pregnant woman bringing groceries up as fast as she can

because she has no money for a medical plan

the man throwing dough to make your personal pan

I’m writing to give a voice to the American worker

who is being broken and bent over by the forever responsible Man

I’m writing this poem

because capitalistic individualism is killing individuals with minimum capital

as the individual seeks to maximize his capital, killing individuals less fortunate than

himself…

I’m writing because I’m upset with our supposedly elected president

who looks down on a grossly misrepresented Senate and House of Representatives 

to raise his salary to four hundred thousand [00:32:00]

Capitalism is cracking crippling whips on the backs of the working class but we’ve been

beaten for so long, we are immune and walking wounded …swept up in an invisible

river bigger than the Mississippi, slicker than the Harlem and less swimmable than

the Hudson…

This is the river of currency

and currently the current is so strong

that the working class is riding the riptide

far out into sea, too far to see land

but hoping that if we keep working someday we’ll reach the beach…

I’m writing this poem, and I’ll keep writing this poem, binding and refining the lines of these poems until my momma can teach kids to read and be able afford her mortgage, eat out every once in a while and drive the car she’d like to, to work. [00:33:00]

[The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/That it will roll in abundance/ And that you’re building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.]   

This week the team sits down with Sandra Maria Van Opstal, who is an author, preacher, activist, and the Executive Director of the non-profit Chasing Justice. We talk with her about her work, the challenges women of color face leading as activists and pastors, what keeps her motivated and joyful, and a lot more.  

Shake the Dust is a podcast of KTF Press. Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Find transcripts of this show, sign up for our free mailing list, and subscribe to our blog at KTFPress.com. 

Hosts:  

Jonathan Walton – follow him on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter.  

Suzie Lahoud – follow her on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter.  

Sy Hoekstra – follow him on Twitter.  

Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra – listen to the whole song on Spotify. 

Our podcast art is by Jacqueline Tam – follow her and see her other work on Instagram.  

Shake the Dust is produced and edited by Sy Hoekstra. 

Questions about anything you heard on the show? Write to [email protected] and we may answer your question on a future episode.

Transcript 

[00:00:00] Sandra Maria Van Opstal: I think that the church globally is a light in a very dark season for those of us that have done most of our work in white evangelicalism. We haven't been able to see the beauty that is happening all around the world. And we continue to do that as we, you know, export our podcasts and our books in other languages and our worship music acting as if we're still the center, when the reality is we are no longer the center.

I'm not concerned about what's going to happen to the people of God. I am very concerned about what's going to happen to white American Christians of all kinds- evangelical and Protestant, Pentecostal and progressive. We're so steeped in our own idolatry, it's hard for us to see what's going on.

[The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/That it will roll in abundance/ And that you’re building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.]   

Jonathan Walton: Welcome [00:01:00] to Shake the Dust, leaving colonized faith for the Kingdom of God, a podcast of KTF Press. I'm Jonathan Walton here with Suzie Lahoud and Sy Hoekstra.

Suzie Lahoud: Today, we have an interview with Sandra Maria Van Opstal, who is an author, preacher, activist, and the executive director of the nonprofit, Chasing Justice.

We talk with her about her work, the challenges women of color face leading as activists and pastors, what keeps her motivated and joyful, and a whole lot more.

Sy Hoekstra: Just a quick reminder to subscribe to our blog at www.ktfpress.com to get access to our weekly newsletter, which is a regular roundup of media around culture, faith, and politics that is worthy of your time and attention.

You will also get writing from the three of us and bonus episodes of this show. We have a bonus episode coming after this one, that is a conversation we had following our interview with Sandra. We're talking about the American Christian tendency to consume the trauma of other people as a product.

Subscribing to the blog will also support this show and help us with our future book [00:02:00] projects, and to put some other plans in motion, like to be able to pay other people to write for our blogs in the future. And if you're not in a financial place to subscribe to the blog, we totally understand. You can still support us by going to www.ktfpress.com and signing up for the free mailing list, subscribing to this show, and rating and reviewing this show wherever you're listening to podcasts. Those things are incredibly helpful to us and we really appreciate it.

Jonathan Walton: Now that that's out of the way, let's get to it. Here’s Sandra Maria Van Opstal.

[“Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in briefly, then fades out.] 

Sy Hoekstra: Sandra Maria Van Opstal, thank you so much for joining us on Shake the Dust today.

Sandra Maria Van Opstal: It’s awesome to be with you guys.  

Sy Hoekstra: I guess I want to start out by asking, you know, you have a lot of different leadership positions that you're in as a worship leader, a pastor, a campus minister, and the founder of a nonprofit, but we would just like to know to start off with, you know, how is it that you would like people, to be introduced to you right now?

Sandra Maria Van Opstal: Wow, well, I think I'm a neighbor. I think that's the way I would [00:03:00] like to be introduced. You know, I am just trying to do life in the context of this particular season and all the things that it has brought us.

So I think, you know, whether it's being a pastor or, you know, a nonprofit leader, an activist in my community, I think it primarily stems from trying to be a person of faith that's trying to neighbor well, so that's, that's how I'd like to be introduced right now, I think.

Sy Hoekstra: When you say neighbor well, what does that mean to you?

Sandra Maria Van Opstal: Well, very tangibly, it means I'm living in a household with multiple families. So my husband and I, we own a three-flat in a community that was gentrifying. And so we have family members, you know, community members that are in our home with us. We have three apartments and there are multiple, there are four teenagers in the space with us- college students and high school, and parents, and single parents, and all those kinds of things.

So I think, you know, a [00:04:00] neighbor to folks that live next door to us that are starting to see the construction really ramp up again, again, in a neighborhood that's gentrifying and the other day, having to just kind of listen to how neighbors are feeling when new construction is being built around them and it's actually eroding their soil or doing things to their dwelling, you know?

So I think in that sense, very locally, people around us- friends and family, who are trying to experience this inequity in education that we're experiencing, particularly as our children are remote or hybrid, all the questions and concerns and hopes and fears that our immigrant neighbors have. I mean, it just goes on and on.

So I think from the, the work that I do always stems from the space that I live in and the concerns that the people that I love are bringing to me and that are on my heart as I do life with them.

Suzie Lahoud: Well, and I'm sure that that level of being embedded in the community [00:05:00] really informs and enriches your ministries in so many ways. And Sy mentioned in the brief introduction that you're the executive director and co-founder of a nonprofit called Chasing Justice. And we would love it if you could just summarize for our listeners how that organization got started, what it does in terms of the mission and the vision, and just practically speaking, what are you all doing through that organization right now?

Sandra Maria Van Opstal: Yeah, I mean, Chasing Justice, I think is an extension of the work that I've always been doing, whether with students on campus or pastors and community leaders in the city of Chicago, or the work that I do when I'm training and kind of facilitating dialogue globally with leaders that are trying to pursue justice and reconciliation.

So I think the Chasing Justice organization is a community and really an organization that's seeking to be a guide for people to see God's goodness for our world, and then to learn to live a lifestyle of justice. And it's an [00:06:00] organization that's led by people of color, and that centers the voices of people of color in the work of justice, because we believe that the folks that are, that are most impacted by injustice should be given the center and leadership of how we pursue a new way forward.

So I think Chasing Justice for myself and Mark Reddy was really an opportunity to bring to life some of the work we had already been doing in the neighborhood, you know, here in Chicago with organizations that we had worked with previously in development and kind of global issues. But, you know, the reality is there's just a lot of darkness in the world, and I think as people of faith, we can become overwhelmed to even see where God is at work. And so Chasing Justice, we felt like would be a movement of providing pictures, kind of ways forward, images, curriculum, cohorts, all kinds of places, kind of community where people could disrupt their broken thinking by learning and centering the voices of people of color, [00:07:00] and really discovering that the work of justice is beautiful and that we can see God's goodness for our world and not become overwhelmed by all of it.

So, yeah, so it's, it started kind of a year ago. We launched a little prematurely. We had intended to launch in the summertime and COVID started and we realized that a lot of what was being interpreted for us about us as communities of color was being interpreted by white folks. And we just felt like, nope, that's not the way to go. We really want to give the microphone to some of our global partners and some of our folks of color that are working in our schools and in healthcare and in all these areas to let them interpret for us what's happening with COVID and why it’s, why a global pandemic impacts the poor so much, and folks of color so disproportionately. So that's how we started was really just, we did a daily live for 30 days, and that’s how we started on Instagram [laughs].

But yeah, we continue to grow and see how to move forward.

Jonathan Walton: Yeah, and I [00:08:00] watched a lot of those lives, Sandra. So I just appreciate you, and I'm super grateful that, you know, KTF and Shake the Dust were able to have you. And you know, you've made a lot of transitions and I don't know if ten years ago you imagined doing 30 Instagram lives, right?

Sandra Maria Van Opstal: [laughs] No, I didn’t. There wasn't Instagram. There was no Instagram.

Jonathan Walton: [laughing] Exactly, right?

Suzie Lahoud: And probably not in the middle of a global pandemic, either.

Jonathan Walton: Right. Exactly! So like, what has helped you discern you're gonna leave something, right, and then start something new?

Sandra Maria Van Opstal: Yeah, you know, I think the journey towards liberation is long and has lots of turns in it. I look back now on it and I think, “Oh, it makes perfect sense what I'm doing right now,” because what I did as a campus minister, as a campus pastor with, you know, in my twenties with people that were 19, 20 years old is the same thing I'm doing now.

I'm really trying to identify [00:09:00] what is it that we can show people about how the world can be? I think what I'm trying to do, and what we're trying to do through Chasing Justice organizationally, is really inspire a different Christian imagination, a different way that the world could be. There just has to be like, I think last year I just kept by myself saying like, “There just has to be a better way!” you know? There has to be a better way than what we're doing. And I think whether it's in the work of worship and really trying to imagine and reform and change how we're doing worship towards something that's, that embodies more of what it truly means to be the global church or whether it's trying to call people to stewardship and better use of their money, you know, I just, I felt like every transition for me has been a move towards either expanding the space or changing the space, but doing the same kind of work. Which is really helping [00:10:00] people integrate their faith with their lifestyle. Like not just what they do on a Sunday or on a Wednesday, if they happen to walk through some doors, which we don't do anymore, but what they do with their finances, what they do with their talents, what they do with their decisions.

So even today I was thinking, “Man, like people keep like, they're like posting about justice and like, you know, tweeting things and like writing a Senator and doing all this thing…” and all the while they're ordering from Amazon and shopping at Walmart and doing all these things that just continue to fuel some of the most, you know, dangerous companies that are out there that are oppressing workers and centering profits over people.

And I just, I have to ask my, cause I, you know, I'm in this, I'm thinking like “Why, why are we doing what we're doing?” So I think, trying to give people alignment in life, I think is what I'm, what I've always been doing. Whether it's in the area of worship, or as an executive pastor, or [00:11:00] as a nonprofit leader, or as a neighbor, it’s like, there's just, we have to be more free than this. There's gotta be a way to be freer than we are right now. And I think that's kind of been at the center of it is like leading maybe through journey and modeling and then trying to inspire a renewed imagination.

Sy Hoekstra: To what degree is that just discipleship or spiritual direction?

Sandra Maria Van Opstal: Okay, so I think it falls under those categories [chuckles]. I think some of what I do is that. Like I, for example, in Chasing Justice, we have cohorts and so we have an executive leader’s cohort. And we don't put a lot online about it just because it's by invite only at this point; they're pilots that we're doing so, and then we have one that's for women of color, kind of emerging leaders, folks that have pretty large platforms, but are still in their early to mid-twenties that are trying to figure out what it means that so many people are listening to them. And so I think in those spaces, I am doing kind of [00:12:00] discipleship, leadership development, spiritual formation in those spaces.

I do coaching through the work of Chasing Justice. So I coach a handful of primarily women of color, but in those kinds of areas. But then there is the collective work that we do through storytelling or through some of the podcasts that we're running or the posts that we're doing that are just trying to help all of us imagine a new way forward. Which for me is, and I know you guys could speak to this yourself in your own journeys, but trying to have a more integrated approach to justice that isn't only make a Black friend, you know, live in a poor neighborhood OR tweet, post, and, you know, raise your voice for justice. Somewhere in between there there's like more than, you know, kinda more than neighboring and, well, I shouldn't say that… I should say if you're neighboring, it probably will lead to advocacy, but more than [00:13:00] just either systemic advocacy that's disconnected from a neighboring, or neighboring that doesn't include advocacy. So somewhere in the middle is a lifestyle, I believe, of justice. And I think it's been informed by the, being an urban project director, by being someone who's taken students overseas and has family overseas, by marrying into a wealthy family and trying to figure out what to do with resources that I didn't have before.

So I think all those pieces for me, they inform not just the work that I do with individuals that are connected with Chasing Justice, but with whatever we're trying to message out there as quote unquote, you know, Influencers. Yeah, it's weird actually, you guys, cause I, you know, I'm not young, so I'm like, before there were influencers there were just doers, we just did stuff. And then people around us were like, “Hey, I wonder why they're doing that?” And then they just did it too. And [00:14:00] then came, you know, Facebook, social media, Instagram, and YouTube, and all of a sudden you can actually impact people that don't even see you on a daily basis.

Sy Hoekstra: So you've talked in several places, I think, about some of the trauma that has happened while trying to do the work that you're doing within white evangelical institutions. And you actually wrote an essay- in 2018, there was an anthology that came out called Still Evangelical? that was about writers explaining whether or not they still considered themselves evangelicals. And you wrote that you did, despite the fact that it caused you a lot of harm to be a part of that group and that you were constantly wondering whether or not you should remain part of the group. Can you walk us through that reasoning? And do you still consider yourself evangelical?

Sandra Maria Van Opstal: Yeah, so I think what I ended up saying in the chapter- which was only written over like a two-day period, so [00:15:00] it really was my gut reaction- is that I would consider myself to be an evangélica. And I primarily identify with my Latina spiritual heritage and roots, and to be an evangélica, in Spanish, is not to be politically aligned with what evangelicalism is, it's to be aligned with kind of the history of Christian thought and the theological space of being evangelical and it’s defined as like the centrality of Scripture, the desire to proclaim the good news of Jesus in both word and in deed in the works that you do. So I think what I was trying to say there is that, I mean I do consider myself in that space.

I pastor at a Christian Reformed Church, so even though I'm probably not as reformed as those spaces are, I think that, you know, I'm still like at the center of the work that we do with [00:16:00] Chasing Justice, I'm, right now I’m taking my students, or my student and staff team- kind of like the young folks that are involved in doing all the graphics and everything- through a study in the book of Amos, because I believe, well I don't believe, I know that Amos was instrumental for Mark and I as we launched the vision of what Chasing Justice would look like, thus, you know, the lion logo.

But for me, I consider myself to be within evangelical tradition. I just don't consider myself to be a white evangelical. So I don't identify with the 81%. I don't identify with the politics of evangelicalism, or the purity culture of evangelicalism, or the kind of, the utilitarian pragmatic approaches to evangelism or all those other things. But I don't think they're evangelical. I think they're white American evangelical.

So I think that in the context of that book- which we were writing coming right after the, coming right after the [00:17:00] 2016 elections, coming, I think it was published at the anniversary of the inauguration or something like that-  I think it was important for me to say, I am within this Christian tradition, because then again, and this has to do with the work we're doing with Chasing Justice, then it ends up being like, well, the, you know, the evangelical or conservative Protestant, whatever you want to call them, Christians, they're about the work of really centering scripture and, you know, speaking about Jesus and calling people to actually the cost of discipleship, while the people that do justice over here, they’re not in that space. And I think that that polarity is just not helpful for what we see in the global church. Most of the global church believes in the centrality and the authority of Scripture in the work that they do. And we're only 10, 11% of the global church here in America. So I think that my decision to write that way was to say, actually, I represent what most majority Christians, where most majority Christians are- a [00:18:00] more Pentecostal, you know, Bible-believing, biblically, I guess, centering scripture and still deconstructing and still saying some of how we interpret Scripture is just white.

And so I think, you know, I think the way it's happening right now, it's kind of like, if you're justice oriented, if you're deconstructing, if you're decolonizing, then you're in this space over here. And then if you're a person who, you know, believes in the work of the Holy spirit and that it takes actual, you know, power aside from your own, you know, capabilities or your own capacity to overcome evil, then you're over here in this space. And I just feel like there's like a third and fourth and fifth way. And we see that globally. So just because Americans tend to be dichotomistic, and just because Americans think in binary perspectives, why do Western, why does Western binary thinking have to be [00:19:00] subject or, kind of put onto the rest of the world? Most of the world's Christians aren't binary in their thinking or dichotomistic in their thinking, they're actually very holistic in their thinking. So I think it was my attempt to say, you know, even though evangelicals may not consider me when they think of themselves, I'm still a part of this family in that I'm trying to reclaim, and in some ways reform, what people think about when they think about the word evangelical.

I don't, like toss that word around a lot. Like, it's not like I'm like, it's not in my bio, you know. But I do, like when I write to Congress or when I write to my Senator or my representative, I put, “I'm an evangelical Christian who pastors in a Reformed Church and I want you to know this about what I believe about immigration policy,” because it's important for them to see that there are people that are in their same theological space that don't hold their same [00:20:00] social/political perspectives.

I'm not sure if that helps, but…

Jonathan Walton: Definitely does.

Suzie Lahoud: Yeah, no, that's so helpful. And I love how you, I feel like, Sandra, you always do this beautiful job of bringing back in that global perspective. And for someone like myself, who's also been wrestling with that question, you know, even in light of the most recent election and all of the turmoil around that, do I still identify as evangelical? And I think it's so helpful to bring that perspective of, well, really what we're talking about that has become so heinous in the evangelical church in America, those are cultural things. Those are socio-political things. Those aren't necessarily theological things, even though of course our culture informs our theological lens, but I think it's so beautiful how you sort of turn that on its head by pointing to a cultural manifestation of evangelicalism that's probably truer to the teachings of Christ and what it means to truly [00:21:00] follow him. So yeah, thank you for sharing that and to kind of segue and almost backtrack a little bit into something you alluded to earlier, you talked about some of the trauma and difficult things that you've experienced working as a woman of color in predominantly white Christian spaces. And so if you wouldn't mind sharing just what’s some of the resistance that you encounter in your positions of leadership, both as a woman, and then particularly as a woman of color, if you don't mind kind of unpacking some of that and getting into some of that.

Sandra Maria Van Opstal: Okay, so you guys are trying to have me relive all my trauma today…okay… [laughs] No, I'm just kidding.

Jonathan Walton: It’s all to set up what it looks like to lead in transformational ways and lead transformational work. 

Sandra Maria Van Opstal: You know, it's interesting cause my co-host for the Chasing [00:22:00] Justice podcast, Kathy Khang, and I just did it, we just recorded an episode last week about the role, the cost that women of color have to pay in our collective liberation.

And it really was a response to, you know, all these, we have white female, white male, men of color leaving white institutions, and like, it's just, it's breaking news and it's out there and everyone's talking about it and we're just like, yeah, we did that in 2017. No one said anything. Like nobody reported on us or like, you know, did a whole capture center page, you know, in some Christian magazine, there was nothing for us.

And the reality is that we leave, and nobody notices. You know, we leave and, quietly or loudly, and nobody talks about it. And I think that that actually is pretty telling to the kind of trauma that we experience, which is, [00:23:00] you know, we pay high costs for pretty much everything we do. And then we get very little reward for what is done.

So whether it's being a woman of color helping a white institution become diverse and more equitable, and then eventually we just get so tired we have to leave, but you know, who gets the award? Who gets to show their statistic? Who gets to kind of, you know, teach other white institutions, how to do this? The white leaders within that institution that traumatized us, you know. And/or men of color, you know, because as women, we often, you know, experience that even with our own communities.

And so, you know, you write for a magazine, or a publication, or a book you contribute to, you know, your own community is like, why are you going to be a part of that project? And you get questioned, you get kind of interrogated by your own community because you're lending your voice to that white space, and then, you know, who gets the award? Who gets noted? [00:24:00] Who's the savior of all the white, who's the savior of all the authors of color that, you know, use their platform to elevate those authors of color? It's the white person. And so I think part of it is just inequity in very real, tangible ways.

Cuz I think we're beyond our feelings being hurt. I think most of us are in therapy. So we're working on our feelings. We don't expect the systems to deal with our feelings, but the systems aren't just making us feel sad or unincluded. We're underpaid. We're overworked. And then where credit is due, it's never given to women of color within those institutions.

And so no matter what we do to break through those bamboo or cornhusk or glass ceilings, the reality is that women are just paying the cost professionally. And so I've seen that. I can't go through all of it cause I'm not ready to write that memoir book yet. But I know very few women of color that have [00:25:00] left institutions or have stood up for what they believed in and it became a good thing for their professional career.

Whereas I see white men and white women doing so, and then they actually enhance or elevate their career, because they find a new space and now they get to add this, you know, “justice warrior” name tag, or, you know, a banner to their own brand. So it's just, it's very painful. But yeah, I think, you know, obviously under, we're not paid, women of color authors are underpaid in the publishing industry. We're underpaid in the church. We're not given the titles or the, you know, the positions, that are, that come with a level of experience and expertise that we have, you know, the data's all out on that.

So I think, I really find that for women of color, we're less like, trying to [00:26:00] have somebody notice how sad we are about the situation, because we already know that no one's going to help us through that, but us. So we have our own communities. We've developed formal spaces as well as informal spaces and, you know, our sisterhood and all those things. So I think what we're looking for now is that just, you know, it's, we're done with the systemic things and we're going to speak to it as long as we can. And then when people won't listen, I think people bounced. I think in 2017 you saw an incredible amount of women of color leaving white evangelical spaces and returning actually back to their communities of color or just not returning to any kind of you know, spirit, like faith-based space. So they just took their talents and their expertise and their fierceness out into other sectors.

Suzie Lahoud: So as a [00:27:00] follow-up question, I appreciate the importance, you talk about the importance of just community that women of color have really had to create for themselves to have that sense of fellowship and support. But if we, if we look ahead to- you know, you talk about the importance of being able to imagine something beyond that, something even greater than that- and if we were to imagine a day when, honestly, men can really step up to the plate, both, you know, people of color and racially assigned white folks, and support women of color. What do you wish that that men would do to elevate and center women and women of color in leadership positions?

Sandra Maria Van Opstal: I remember having a panel in the, I want to say it was 2017 or maybe even 15 on this same question. So I'll say it again, but I really have, I don't know how much hope I have that things [00:28:00] will change, but I think that part of the role that men have is to speak up before they know we're even coming into the room.

And what I mean by that is, if you're a white male or man of color and you’re in these spaces- let's say in academia or in kind of the Christian church world or whatever, in the marketplace- and you notice, for example, that there are no women of color that are holding positions of influence or positions of leadership, and you want it to be that way, then I think you start the work before we show up, you know. You start to point those things out, to elevate the voice, to make, to just name that they're not, that they're not in the room.

I don't think it has to be in aggressive ways. I mean, I've seen my husband do this many times in a meeting, and he works as a consultant, you [00:29:00] know, and he'll say, you know, I think a lot, you know, “I propose this, but without having, you know, more women of color in the room, it's difficult to actually make a decision that will be effective for a more equitable space,” let's say. That's not an aggressive comment. It's just saying, you know, “I'm going to give what I can, but I just want…” he's making plain that there are no women of color in the room.

Sy Hoekstra: What does he do consulting in?

Sandra Maria Van Opstal: He consults in IT project management. So he's at a consulting firm downtown that works, that’s in his field, very male, you know. And/or sometimes he'll be in a room where he'll say, you know, “This is, this conversation…”- also, my husband does a lot of work in CQ, cultural intelligence, and does DEI work, we do together, and then he does in his workplace and me in mine- but he'll say things like, “You know, this is a great conversation about equity and diversity, but everyone in the room is either white or Asian. So I think until we have more Latino/ [00:30:00] Latina voices or African-American voices, we're going to be stretched to find a solution that will really be helpful.” So he'll continue to name that thing, because he knows that those things are important.

So I think in the same way, if I just, very tangibly, I've seen so many books that are written or conferences held or gatherings/events that are being done, and I look at the little squares of pictures of who's there and I'm like, “Do my brothers of color notice that there are no women present there? Like, is that noticeable to them?” Or I'll say like, “Does anybody else see that it's literally, like, I just opened the middle page of a magazine yesterday and it was like, seven white men who are going to teach us about the future of building the church? I really don't understand this ad right now.” So I think for a man to write to this Christian magazine and say, “I just want you to know that your, you know, your center [00:31:00] ad in your magazine was a picture of four white men, and I understand it's an ad, but I want you to know how it felt to me to open that.”

So, if it always has to be a woman of color that has to raise her voice, if it always has to be a woman of color that has to go in and say it, it becomes exhausting. So I think say things before we're there, and then say things when we're there, and then check in with us as we're in the room together, which I have tons of brothers that do that.

Like we have, you know, separate text chats that we have during meetings that are just like the women of color and a couple of men who are like, okay, you want me to say that, or do you guys just want to say that? I mean, it takes that kind of work. Like if you are listening to this podcast and you are in a meeting where there are people of color in your meeting, you could be 99% sure that there is a separate text thread happening within that meeting so that we are not, you know, just gonna lose our cool within that space because [00:32:00] there's so much happening relationally and systemically and politically in those spaces that we need someone else to process that with.

Jonathan Walton: Man. I have so many thoughts. So as you, as you're talking, like I have snapshots of meetings, right, within InterVarsity, within campus ministry, within church spaces. In addition, one of the things you talked about that Jemar Tisby talks about, particularly in the stuff he's just done very recently with “Leaving Loud,” is this leaving and transitioning and how we do that, particularly because things are not changing or will not change, or there's an explicit commitment doubling down to not be different, and they will not be anti-racist. They will not be anti-patriarchy. They will not be anti- the accumulation of self-indulgent wealth, right. It's not going to happen. And so I'm [00:33:00] wondering for you, how do we leave well and quote, unquote, shake the dust, and then go and begin that new thing in a helpful way?

Sandra Maria Van Opstal: Yeah, no, I mean, I've helped so many people leave [laughs]. People think it's my fault, but it's not my fault. They were already on their way out. I just helped them leave.

Jonathan Walton: [laughing] Yeah, they were already gone, they’re already gone, they’re already gone…

Sandra Maria Van Opstal: And you can send me the check cause I helped them leave without taking you down in the process. You know, I really believe that even if you, with integrity, you need to make a decision to do those things that you should still do them well. You know, you should do them with grace and with conscience and you should do them so that you can be able to sleep at night.

And I think, you know, in a kind of Christian world and culture where you can't have conflict, oftentimes our only moves tend to be passive aggressive, and I just don't think that's super helpful or [00:34:00] effective for doing anything. So I can tell you right now that I'm consulting with three different major historically white organizations, and there are people within those conversations that I'm having that have left and have left quietly, without saying anything. And each of those cases I've said, “Listen, you are a senior woman of color in that institution, and if you were to say something, it would make such a difference for the people that are left behind.”

But the cost of what that feels like for someone, because they know they might need a recommendation, or because they know they might call their former work, or, you know, whatever it is, it feels very, very huge. And so I just… but I do believe that when you leave an institution or a community, or even a relationship, like if you're in a friendship with someone and you just need to tell them, like, this is not healthy, this is just, this is not good for me, that you should be forthright, that you should name the thing, and that you should give [00:35:00] them the, I guess, the dignity of the feedback that they need and deserve because you have to believe, I believe that, the Holy Spirit is at work in all of us, all of us need change. So I would hate for someone to back out of a friendship with me, or to leave the work that we're doing with Chasing Justice and not tell me why they left. That would feel awful to me. And so I think to leave and to say to someone, you know, I'm leaving because of these three things and here's how I experienced them, very tangibly.

I did an exit interview with the organizations that I worked for- I stayed for a really long time in both of them, but there were two. I met with the senior pastors of churches that I have left, and even if it was contentious and very scary to me and felt difficult, I asked for an elder or an executive pastor to be there in that space. And we named things, we just, we named them. We said, “This is what we experienced.” And it was, in one case I had to actually tell the [00:36:00] pastor, “I don't care how mad you were in that situation, as someone who is a pastor, there is never any reason for a pastor to say that to another, to a congregant ever. It was wrong.” And so it was cross-cultural for me to do that as a Latina to speak to someone in authority over me that way, but I just, it had to be done.

So I think part of it is just actually knowing that we are, the work that we do is not for our own liberation, it's for our collective liberation. So if we leave a space without naming what is there in ways that I think are helpful and appropriate, then we don't do a service to the people that are left behind, or that will come after us, who won't know what happened, you know?

And I don't believe open letters really do a ton of the stuff. So typically, I just go to the person specifically and I address it with them, or I go to the leadership board, whoever that is in a church or an institution. I think how we leave well in transition, [00:37:00] the best thing I've known to do is to just to do the work of knowing yourself, like, of course, you're going to experience self-doubt. Of course, you're going to experience imposter syndrome when you try to start something on your own. I never wanted to start anything on my own. This was not my idea. That was Mark Reddy, you know. Like he was like, “Let's do this.” And I was like, “Oh, okay.” And you know, and then he's like, “Okay, now you be in charge, okay?” So yeah, he probably knew I wouldn't do it.

So, but I think knowing myself, like doing the work of knowing myself and identifying my gifts as a leader and my limits as a leader and my priorities and my passions, that's super important, which is why with Chasing Justice, this executive leaders cohort for me is so important because these are leaders in their thirties who have led at a national level, and they're either in transition or they're considering transition, and so I'm like, “This is why I've selected you for this cohort, [00:38:00] because I believe you're going to have the opportunity to either do things really well in this season, or maybe hurt yourself or your community along the way.” Cause, you know, it's hard.

And I think the last thing is just having mentors. So I had one mentor say to me, and I'll just name names- Rick Richardson. He's a professor over at Wheaton. He's an author in the area of evangelism and prayer. And so he said to me, “You can leave, and you can even sue if you wanted to. You could do a lot of things, Sandra. But I think what you'll want to do is to leave well, because you will experience this”- I think I was 30 at the time, 15 years ago, he said, “you will experience this at every single institution you go to, because people will be intimidated by your presence.” And so whether it's community of color, whether it's gender, whether it's, so he's like, “I think you're just going to need to know how to do this well.”

[00:39:00] And so I just encourage you to lean in and let the Lord take care of whatever's going to happen for that person or that leader, that institution, but really ask Jesus, “What do you have for me?” and leave well. You won't regret it. I know what he said to me, he said, “I know somewhere along the line, you're going to want to tear this thing down on your way out.” [laughs] And I did, you know, the first part of the transition was fantastic, and then something happened in an email and I literally was like, “I’m gonna send these emails public!” I was just like, “I'm gonna…”

Jonathan Walton: Gasoline everywhere, gasoline…

Sandra Maria Van Opstal: And then I just remembered Rick's words. He said, “You're going to want to do this and it will not, you have to ask yourself ‘Who will this damage- them or the people in that community?’” And I was like, “Ahh.” So I have to say that mentors are very important in that process. So if you don't have like, a mentor, spiritual director, [00:40:00] you know, someone that you're talking to you, you need to get one because you will, I mean, at least if you're like me, I just, I would have torn that thing down. I mean, absolutely light the match and let it burn on the way out. And it wouldn't have been good for the people in the community.

Jonathan Walton: That, that makes sense. And as you're talking, it sounds like you, you have like completely encultured yourself and are continuing to like de-center whiteness even in the way you leave, even in the way you do conflict, even in the way you build mentors, even in the way you build cohorts.

Because I can think of so many, you know, movies that when you leave as a white man in a movie, you destroy everything, right? There's all these ways of building and leaving and starting institutions that are rooted in colonization and dominance and destruction and the centering of an individual who rises up to become the quote unquote [00:41:00] master of something to put it in Dr. Willie Jennings’ language

Sandra Maria Van Opstal: Right.

Jonathan Walton: that like needs to be different. Different, redemptive, restorative- all the things that Jesus actually talks about in an upside-down kingdom. So I'm grateful, and I appreciate you expounding on that because I think you put words to what decolonization looks like.

Sy Hoekstra: Moving, um, away from the trauma and the pain and the difficult things [Sandra and Jonathan laugh] I want to end by asking you, you obviously have confidence doing this work. You have joy doing this work. I know that's not in all moments or in all things, but you, I mean, you can hear it just talking to you. So, what is it that brings you joy? What is it that keeps you grounded? Are there any spiritual disciplines or anything?

Sandra Maria Van Opstal: Yeah, I mean, the first thing that brings me joy is just [00:42:00] women of color and Black women specifically. I mean, I just, I am so blessed to have so many fantastic friendships of women that are just cheering each other on in ways that you all can see, but in so many ways that no one can see. The texts and the group threads and the Venmos, you know, and the, just support. I think that just gives me so much joy for modeling a new way forward that as Black women and as women of color begin to really take their place internationally as leaders, that we will not do the same thing that our white male counterparts and that our men of color counterparts did, which was, to really operate out of, what I think a lot of people operate out of scarcity, which I totally understand, but it doesn't fit for us. So, I think, to show up in places where our sisters are not present and not say something is, is very rare. I get joy from that. I get courage from that. I see it as a model of something, kind of a [00:43:00] liberated self moving forward in community.

Look at the global church. I mean, I'm not scared at all about Christianity. I am not. The church around the world is doing some amazing and creative and innovative, fantastic things as it comes to being a witness in the world around them, in transforming their neighborhoods and their cities. I definitely think we should all take a class somewhere outside of the US on how to do, on how to do church-planting, on how to do development, on how to do anything basically. I think that the church globally is a light in a very dark season for those of us that have done most of our work in white evangelicalism.

We haven't been able to see the beauty that is happening all around the world. And we continue to do that as we, you know, export our podcasts and our books in other languages and our worship music acting as if we're still the center, when the reality is we are no longer the center. [00:44:00] So, I think, that brings me so much joy just to learn from, especially young leaders, like running into community activists that are in their early twenties in Tegucigalpa, Honduras, you know, just seeing what they're doing and the way they're using art and activism to draw young people to the church and to faith. I mean, I can name for you so many things that are happening, but I think that brings me joy.

I'm not concerned about what's going to happen to the people of God. I am very concerned about what's going to happen to white American Christians of all kinds- evangelical and Protestant, Pentecostal and progressive. I think that we're so steeped in our own idolatry, it's hard for us to see what's going on. So I think my hope, my joy really is in the global church and in the way that its next generation is showing us new ways forward.

So, yeah, I mean, and I think part of it is like I [00:45:00] worship y'all.

Jonathan Walton: Amen.

Sandra Maria Van Opstal: I, again, I'm a part of a Pentecostal, you know, Black/ brown community on the West side of Chicago, that's primarily, predominantly, historically Puerto Rican. And I mean, we just get on our faces and cry out for the pain that we're in. And I think that that worship, an encounter with the living God, transforms how you see the world. Because without that kind of rootedness, I mean, what do we have? I also practice a weekly Sabbath and I take two, three-day silent retreats a year. So, um, that’s what I do.

Sy Hoekstra: Two things I want to highlight from that answer: one is you just said all that about your church, how your church worships and who's in the church. You also said you're at a CRC church, is that right?

Sandra Maria Van Opstal: Yes. [laughs]

Sy Hoekstra: So, for listeners who are familiar with the CRC, let that change your view of it.

Sandra Maria Van Opstal: So it is a Reform-a-costal [00:46:00] [laughs], you know, Dutch, you know, obviously denomination, but the church was planted about 30 years ago by Manny Ortiz, and this is kind of the next iteration of it. And it's a community center and a church and it’s doing fantastic things in the community of Austin in Chicago. So yeah.

Sy Hoekstra: The other thing you said was that when you talked about the power of Black and brown women's leadership not coming from a place of scarcity, I just think that's interesting because I, you know, coming from the demographics in the United States who have the least, who are the most vulnerable, not operating from a place of scarcity, what does that mean exactly?

Sandra Maria Van Opstal: Okay, I think what it means is like, there's only so many spaces at the table. That's what I think I hear, it's not just what I perceive, I hear that, you know. So it's, typically if I talk about diversifying your leadership, or your worship team, or whatever, you know, kind of workshop or facilitating I'm doing, I almost [00:47:00] always hear a white man say, “You know, well, does that mean I have to step away from the table?” or, “Well, what if I still want to be leading?” you know. Or like oftentimes in, whether it's in seminary or in classes that I'm teaching, someone will say, “Well, but I feel called to pastor in an urban setting” or, you know, “in a multicultural setting” and to all those answers, I say like, “You could feel called to pastor in a multi-ethnic setting or an urban setting, but feeling called to be a pastor is not the same thing as being the lead pastor.”

I don't really believe the Lord calls you to be a lead pastor. I believe the Lord gives you the anointing of pastoring and then you do that in whatever structure is there, and for women, we do that outside of those structures because most churches won't ordain us. So I think like really confronting the assumptions we make about our call and our place in the world.

And I just would say the image that I try to use in my own leadership is just add another [00:48:00] leaf to the table, I mean, or sit on the floor, you know, so there's enough room for all of us. So I just, I don't feel like elevating someone else diminishes my leadership. I'm not done leading, y'all. I hope that I'm still, I'm still young, you know, I'm not done leading,

But starting a podcast network with Chasing Justice and elevating voices of color that don't have the same platform as mine is not the same. It is not at a cost to me, right? There's no cost that I pay. There's enough room for more voices. I mean, there's a million podcasts led by white men. You don't think there needs to be a million podcasts led by people of color?

So I think that many times, and I say this about our brothers of color, not because I'm trying to be mean, but because what they walk into is a very white male space, and so they’re kind of indoctrinated with that, like, you know, there has to be like, at an event, there has to be like one, you know, Asian male speaker and one Latino male speaker and one Black pastor for entertainment and one Black musical artist and one white woman, and [00:49:00] sometimes there's a woman of color allowed, but there's only one space for each of us, even if there's 25 more white speakers.

And so I think we operate out of some scarcity that's given to us in a way that doesn't allow us to say, in a very practical way, I would say that most of my friends that are men of color won't speak at a conference if there isn't a woman of color speaking at that conference. They will decline the invitation. And if every ally did that, then things, then the system would change. But as long as we operate out of a system of scarcity that was developed by scarcity mentality within white evangelicalism, we're going to only perpetuate and promote that same system.

So, you know, I serve a God who owns, you know, all the cattle on the hill, and I don't feel like I'm running out of space here. I think the world is, you know, there's more room for voices. So that's what I mean. I think we're taught [00:50:00] to, again, not only operate out of binary and kind of polaristic, dichotomist ways, but I think we take on the mentality of the wealthy, which is actually scarcity. People with wealth operate out of scarcity and they hoard and they save and they spend and they keep, and people that typically don't have, you know, they're not going to operate out of scarcity because they know that they could be, that everything they have was given to them by the Creator himself. So I just, it's not an odd concept. I mean, anywhere you go around the world, you're going to find that the wealthy are pretty much holding on tight. So I think we show new ways. I think we're showing new ways. We're all coming along. And as long as we're honest with one another, I see more and more really frank and honest conversations, even in communities of color between Asian-American women and Asian-American men and Black men and Black women, where they're saying to one another, “This is what it means to stand by me and to really advocate for me [00:51:00] and to notice when we're not present.” And I think beautiful things are happening.

Jonathan Walton: As you're talking, what I hope, what I feel is convicted, but not guilty. Which I think is what a prophetic pastor is supposed to do is to call people to greater faithfulness, while creating space for us to be honest about where we're at on the journey towards reconstructing, or deconstructing the faith given to us by colonizers and reconstructing a faith that was actually offered by the Jesus of Nazareth, right. And so I am grateful for that and I'm hopeful that, I'm hopeful that the meal that's being served by you is eaten by more people, [00:52:00] just to put it plain, you know. I'm grateful and excited and convicted.

Sandra Maria Van Opstal: Well, you guys caught me on a good day, cause some days, [laughs] some days I'm not so rested and, um, it's not that good. So I just think, to be honest with you, I think we're all exhausted. Are we not exhausted? It’s like, at our own people, it's like, we're just looking at ourselves going like really people? Really? This is how we're going to behave? So I think you just, honestly, caught me on a rested day. Like I was able to Zoom church yesterday. I was able to Sabbath yesterday. And I feel like at my best, I, my desire is to graciously just call us to freedom, and at my worst, I'm just like, “Burn it down.” [laughs]

Jonathan Walton: [laughs] Next time we’ll interview you on a Friday. On a Friday, that’s how we’ll do it.

Sandra Maria Van Opstal: Yeah, any podcast on a Friday probably sounds like that.

[00:53:00] Jonathan Walton: [laughing] Oh man. All my podcast interviews on election night were like that. All of them.

Sy Hoekstra: That's true. We did two that night, I think. And we were not in the best mood, I would say.

Sandra, is there anything that you want to plug or point people to- social media handles, anything at all?

Sandra Maria Van Opstal: Yeah, I mean, I would love for people to follow us at chasingjustice.com. That's where most of our, you know, our blogs that we write for kind of advent and lent and kind of feature some particularities about different ethnic communities are there. Our former masterclasses are there, so our conversations on Black/brown unity and kind of a way forward, our conversations on women of color, conversations on spiritual formation and justice. They're all there.

Follow us on Instagram, cause we always have stories and things posted every day. And then we have a podcast network that has multiple podcasts that are giving voice to how folks of color are really living [00:54:00] into justice in their specific area. So yeah, we'd love for you to follow us on all those.

Sy Hoekstra: That’s fantastic. We second that, everybody go, go check out Chasing Justice for sure!

Sandra Maria Van Opstal, thank you so much for joining us on Shake the Dust today!

Sandra Maria Van Opstal: Thanks for having me!

[“Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in briefly, then fades out.] 

Jonathan Walton: Thank you so much for joining us this week on Shake the Dust! Just a reminder: there's a bonus episode where the three of us have a conversation about the American church’s unfortunate tendency to consume the trauma of others as a product.

You can hear that and other bonus episodes, as well as read everything on our blog, by subscribing at www.ktfpress.com. Also, make sure to subscribe to this show, rate, and review it wherever you listen to podcasts.

Our theme song is citizens by Jon Guerra, and our podcast art is by Jacqueline Tam. Follow us on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook @KTFPress. See you next week! [00:55:00].

[“Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades back in. Lyrics: “Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” Song fades out.]