Skip the Queue

Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is  Kelly Molson, Founder of Rubber Cheese.

Download the Rubber Cheese 2023 Visitor Attraction Website Report - the annual benchmark statistics for the attractions sector.

If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website rubbercheese.com/podcast.

If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us.

Show references:

https://carbonsix.digital/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/pmarden/

Paul Marden is the Founder and Managing Director of Carbon Six Digital and the CEO of Rubber Cheese. He is an Umbraco Certified Master who likes to think outside the box, often coming up with creative technical solutions that clients didn’t know were possible. Paul oversees business development and technical delivery, specialising in Microsoft technologies including Umbraco CMS, ASP.NET, C#, WebApi, and SQL Server. He's worked in the industry since 1999 and has vast experience of managing and delivering the technical architecture for both agencies and client side projects of all shapes and sizes. Paul is an advocate for solid project delivery and has a BCS Foundation Certificate in Agile.

https://www.rubbercheese.com/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellymolson/

Kelly Molson is the Founder of Rubber Cheese, a user focused web design and development agency for the attraction sector. Digital partners to Eureka! The National Children’s Museum, Pensthorpe, National Parks UK, Holkham, Visit Cambridge and The National Marine Aquarium.Kelly regularly delivers workshops and presentations on sector focused topics at national conferences and attraction sector organisations including ASVA, ALVA, The Ticketing Professionals Conference and the Museum + Heritage Show.

As host of the popular Skip the Queue Podcast for people working in or working with visitor attractions, she speaks with inspiring industry experts who share their knowledge of what really makes an attraction successful.Recent trustee of The Museum of the Broads.

Transcription: 

Kelly Molson: Welcome to Skip The Queue, a podcast for people working in or working with visitor attractions. I'm your host, Kelly Molson.

In this new monthly slot, Rubber Cheese CEO Paul Marden joins me to discuss different digital related topics.

In this episode, we're talking about the impact of design, navigation and content on selling tickets and how to go about testing if your design is working or not.

If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on all the usual channels by searching Skip The Queue.

Kelly Molson:  We're doing something a little bit different on the podcast this season. So alongside the usual guest interviews, which we'll have each month, me and the Rubber Cheese CEO, Paul Marden are also going to be recording an episode on a different digital related topic. So we're going to do this once a month. 

Kelly Molson: Each of the episodes, we're going to share insight around design, user experience, content, accessibility, SEO and loads, loads more. We're going to talk a little bit about what's possible, give you some ideas about how easy or how hard that topic is to implement.

Kelly Molson: Maybe what kind of budget that you might need to look at and what some of the next steps are to take if you want to implement some of these things. We're even going to call out some of the best in breed websites, people that are doing things really well within the sector.

Kelly Molson:  So I've been hosting the Skip the Queue podcast since July 2019. Goodness, that's been a long time. Five seasons in now. This is season five. You all know me already. So I am the founder of Rubber Cheese and my background is in design. 

Kelly Molson: I co founded Rubber Cheese back in 2003 after learning about ecommerce when I worked at a very early kind of Shopify type startup agency. The person that you don't know quite as well as me is my fellow host on this podcast. That's funny to say, that my fellow host is Paul Marden. So. Paul. Hello. Welcome. 

Paul Marden: Hello. 

Kelly Molson: This is strange. I'm going to have to share the spotlight for a while, that's very uncomfortable for me. No, it will be fine."It will be fine", she says. Paul, I would love it if you could give us a little intro to yourself. 

Kelly Molson: I know your background and I know you very well. We've known each other for about, I think it's about 14 years now. It's been a long time, hasn't it?

Paul Marden: Yeah. Not long after I started doing this as a proper job. 

Kelly Molson: Well, there you go. Tell us about what your proper job is. 

Paul Marden: Yeah, so I'm the CEO of Rubber Cheese now, alongside another agency that I run called Carbon Six, which we merged Carbon Six and Rubber Cheese just over a year ago. My background is as a geek. I'm a developer by training. I started out ten years at British Airways, all over the airline, doing all different sorts of IT related jobs. So I saw lots of operational side of things, commercial sides of the airline, say, selling tickets, that kind of thing. I don't know if I've told you, but my first visitor attraction job was a long time ago, because when I was at Uni, I did a placement at the National Botanic Garden of Wales when it first opened. So I was there when it was a hole in the ground and I helped them write their IT strategy. 

Paul Marden: So my visitor attraction experience predates my involvement in Rubber Cheese. 

Kelly Molson: I did not know that. So you've done geek stuff for attractions. 

Paul Marden: For a long time. Yeah, it was amazing. I can still remember I was in an office in a farmhouse as they were building the giant glass house. It was just the most amazing place and I've not been back for a long time. It would be amazing to go and see the place, how it's transformed in the, what is it, 24 years since I was there? God, I really sound old now, don't I? 

Kelly Molson: You do sound old. I'm just wondering if they still use the IT plan that you put in place for them. 

Paul Marden: Probably not. I was only a student at the time. It can't have been amazing. 

Kelly Molson: So what we normally do on the podcast, listeners, as you well know, is I ask my guests a series of uncomfortable questions, icebreaker questions, which they very graciously answer beautifully for me. We're not going to do that on this episode. Ha. So we thought, yeah, Paul has wiped his brow in a state of relief there. But what we thought we would do is Paul and I both visit a lot of visitor attractions, both professionally and in our personal life as well. We've both got daughters at very different ages, so Millie is  coming up for I think, 9.

Paul Marden: 10 in two weeks' time. 

Kelly Molson: Okay. And my little one is 2. So we're going to very different visitor attractions right now. But we thought we would talk about the attraction that we visited most recently and what we loved about it, and we thought we'd ask each other that question. So I am going to ask you that question first, Paul. What attraction have you visited most recently and what did you love about it? 

Paul Marden: So we just finished the summer holidays, so went away for just over a week to the Netherlands. We did visit a few different attractions whilst were there, but went to an amazing place. We went back to it, actually, it was one that we've been to before called Burger’s Zoo. So I loved the whole experience of going there the first time around and we wanted to go back there. It's an amazing place. But the reason why I was going to call it out today was a conversation that we've been having and something that we've done with Kitten Museums in terms of the food offering. Because when you go to Burger’s Zoo, the restaurant is amazing. We've talked recently about the sorts of food that you get at visitor attractions and your frustration around this. Lots of fried food. 

Paul Marden: There's never any healthy food. So went to Burger Zoo, we had lunch and of course, there'd be obligatory portion of chips there if you want to have it. Lots of kids food there, but I was able to have a massive great salad. It was in enormous and it was lovely and healthy and really enjoyable and it didn't cost the earth when you were there. And it's so unusual to talk about going to an attraction and getting that kind of quality of food without spending the earth in doing it. So, yeah, that was pretty cool. 

Kelly Molson: That is cool. This is probably a whole another podcast episode to talk about that. I think actually, in your intro, you forgot to mention that you are a Trustee for the Kids in Museums, which is quite a new role for you, isn't it? But it's one that kind of immersed you into the world of attraction. I think that's been a good one for you. They have set up a brilliant scheme, which is kind of an accreditation scheme for attractions to go through, just to check into how healthy and how great their food offering actually is, which I think is brilliant. It's really weird. 

Kelly Molson: The day that they launched it, I was having a like, literally the day before, I was having a conversation on LinkedIn about how atrocious the food offering had been at an attraction that I went to, which is one of the top ten most visited attractions in the UK. It's a great place. It really is a brilliant place, especially if you've got toddler. However, the food was pretty horrendous and I've got an unusual toddler in that. Well, she will eat chips now, she will eat chippies, but she won't eat fried stuff or battered things or anything like that. She's just not interested.

Paul Marden: Nothing beige.

Kelly Molson: Not really, even pasta has to be, she should have been an Italian, she should have seen the amount of pasta that she wolf down when were over there. But it's got to be good. 

Kelly Molson: It's got to be good. Yeah, she is particularly fussy toddler. But just for myself, I mean, just the range of food that was available that day was just dreadful. I mean, the healthiest thing that was on the menu that Lee and I both had was jacket potatoes and I think I took a picture of it somewhere and it was too awful to put on social media. So, yes, that is well needed and I'm glad that attraction stood out on the food front for you. 

Paul Marden: What about you? Where have you been recently? 

Kelly Molson: I've been to lots of different places recently, but this one I can't stop thinking about and so I want to talk about it today and it's not one that I visited with Edie. It's one that I visited with a fellow attractions professional a little while ago, but it's the Beamish Living Museum. I honestly can't stop thinking about it. It's the first living museum that I've been to, so it's the first experience of that for me. And I had such an emotional reaction to it. I'm a bit embarrassed, actually. So I went to meet a couple of people. I met one person that I'd met briefly at a conference before, and then I met one of their colleagues who I'd never met before in my life. And I actually had a bit of a cry to this colleague because it was so emotive. 

Kelly Molson: If anyone who hasn't been to Beamish Living Museum, there's lots of different areas that you can visit, and one of them is a 1950s area and they essentially recreate what it was like in the 1950s, where the museum is located. And it brought back so many memories of my grandparents, both sets of grandparents, for different reasons. The house was very similar to my grandparents on my father's side and just down to some of the things that they had in that space. And I just got overwhelmed by it. It was so wonderful to go back and see that. And in my head all the time I was thinking, well, both my sets of grandparents are no longer with us. They passed away when I was in my early twenties. And so Edie will never get to meet her great grandparents on that side. 

And I thought, God, how amazing would it be for me to bring here and say, show her some of the things that great granny used to have in her house and yeah, just lost it. 

Paul Marden:  It's interesting, isn't it, that you can become so immersed that even now the emotional attachment that you've built when you were there takes you straight back there. Because there's a risk, isn't there, with those sorts of places of it feeling a little bit plastic and fake, isn't it? But this clearly had an emotional impact on you. 

Kelly Molson: Yeah, I think for me, I was worried that it would be people in costumes. It would feel like that. And it did not feel like that at all. It just felt so authentic. Anyway, you've got to go. I don't want to cry for the rest of this podcast, but yeah, it's definitely a must visit for me, it was something really special. 

Paul Marden: Excellent. 

Kelly Molson: Should we move on to what we're going to talk about? And I'll compose myself, shall we?

Paul Marden: Okay, moving swiftly on.

Kelly Molson: Let's. So in this episode, we're going to talk about the impact of design, navigation and content on selling tickets and how we go about testing if it's working or not. So this episode actually launches on the 4th of October, which is one day after we release the 2023 Visitor Attraction website report. There's data that has come out of this year's report that is so insightful and I cannot wait for everybody to get this year's report. It dives deeper into a lot of the topics that we talked about in the first report last year, but there's just so much more to it and I'm very excited about it.

Kelly Molson: Anyway, looking at the data from the report, a 100% of the attractions that took part think that having consistent design and clear navigation is important, which is brilliant. Big tick there. However, many of them don't think that their site meets the need and some of them think it does, but they don't test that it does. There's some really interesting stats about testing that we're going to talk about in a minute that have actually blew my mind a little bit. But one good stat around the design is that 76% of respondents believe that their websites were consistently designed despite using multiple platforms in their customer journey. 

Kelly Molson: And this is something that we talked about quite frequently in that sometimes there's a big disconnect if you are using if you've got your website that's built and designed in WordPress for example, and then you've got your ticketing platform and the two don't look like each other, they're not consistent, they're incongruent. That can be a bit of a challenge for people in terms of trust and how they feel about your brand. 

Paul Marden: It can be a jarring experience, can't it? 

Kelly Molson: Yeah, absolutely. Responses this year once again saw that websites that look good and are easy to use are doing far better than those that don't prioritise consistency. So I'm just going to read out this snippet from the report. We saw that websites that were high scoring for their design and navigation made more sales over the past twelve months. So those successful websites had around 200,000 to 500,000 completed transactions. Whereas on the other hand, websites with lower design and navigation scores didn't do as well, stating that they had below 50,000 completed transactions in the last month. That's quite fascinating, isn't it? 

Paul Marden: It is. This is not just a handful of people that are answering, is it? Because there's a large number of people that are answering that this is important to them and that they think they're doing quite well. And then you see how their perception of doing well correlates really strongly with the actual outcomes of the site itself. 

Kelly Molson: Yeah, I think that the way that we asked the questions this year is interesting as well. So when I talked then about we said that websites that were high scoring for design and navigation, we gave respondents the options to score their website. So we gave them how well designed do you think your site is? Between 1 and 10, 10 being the highest. So we allowed them to kind of self score. But it's interesting because some of those self scores don't correlate to the data that we then took. So those scores, they're based mostly on assumption, which is always a difficult, challenging place to be. But I think, Paul, you had some insight here around the conversion rate and design and how they tally up. 

Paul Marden: So the stats you just talked about were about the volume of transactions. You could say that having good design leads you to have more transactions flowing through your website, but you could also say that the organisations that have more transactions flowing through their website can afford to spend more money on design. But what I found interesting was that when you ignore the absolute number of sales that they make on the website, if you actually look at what their conversion rate is on the website, the attractions who think they have good design tend to have a higher conversion rate by about 1% or 2%. Now, that could be on a low base. 

Paul Marden: There could be a fairly small attraction that has fewer people coming to it, but they still perform relatively better than those attractions that didn't think they had good design but could be massive organisations with large numbers of transactions flowing through. And what I found interesting is we started to work out what is the value of 1 or 2% extra conversion rate, because it doesn't sound like much. Really. There's somebody in the business that doesn't necessarily understand the technology side of it that doesn't sound like a lot. So we started playing with converting that into money. What could that actually be worth? So we played around with we tried to model what is our average attraction and what is the absolute top performing attraction. 

Paul Marden: And even for our average, an increase of 1% in conversion rate could mean tens of thousands of pounds of extra sales that they make. But for the top performing attraction, it could make the difference of hundreds of thousands of pounds of extra sales just by squeezing 1 or 2% of extra conversion rate out. I think that's absolute gold dust in terms of insight that we've drawn out of this data. The organisations that think they have good design tend to have a conversion rate of 1 or 2% more, which could equate to tens of hundreds of thousands of pounds of extra sales that they make. It makes you begin to think that investment in the design of the site could actually be really worthwhile. 

Kelly Molson: Absolutely. And information like that helps the marketing managers build the case for good design and investing in good design. 

Paul Marden: Yeah. And before you say, "Oh, the large organisations with the big budgets, they can afford to do this, what about the small ones?" The smaller organisations with small budgets who had good navigation tended to be the ones that would have the better conversion rate amongst their peers. So you don't need to be a nationally recognised attraction brand to be able to invest an appropriate amount of money in design and get a return on that investment that you make. 

Kelly Molson: I always think that the best use of budget is on the pre planning side, which is unusual coming from a designer, I think. Yeah.  But Paul, you're really data driven, aren't you? You're super data driven. 

Paul Marden: Such a geek. 

Kelly Molson: Yeah, you are a massive geek. Massive nerd. We're very complimentary, but I never used to be very data driven. I was always far more visual driven. But actually well, I'm not going to share it on this podcast, actually, because I'm going to share it at a talk that I'm given. But I've got a really good story around why user testing is very important. We'll come a bit more onto that later. And why you should be driven by the data and the stats and not just by what something looks like. Okay, let's talk about navigation quickly as part of this design section. So it's really interesting. So we've actually got some findings from the Journal of Market Research. 

Kelly Molson: So they state that, when websites are easy to understand and navigate, individuals have a lower cognitive load, so fewer things to work out, and therefore are more likely to have a positive experience to go on to purchase. So having a consistent and well designed website can really help people make complete purchases with your visitor attraction. What I've always said, it's about trying to stop making people think, give them something that is really easy. So I think when we worked with Eureka!, and this is back in 2016, when we first worked with them, we did some research around what people wanted to find out about attractions, what were the first things they needed to know about. And it was literally, when you open, how much do you cost? How can I get there? 

Kelly Molson: So, if they're the three things that people desperately need to know, they're the three things that really need to be highlighted front and centre when you arrive at the site, wherever you arrive at it, whether that's the homepage or what. And it's the same with navigation. People need to understand where they're being taken and why they're being taken to certain places. So we're working with an attraction at the moment, we've just about to start work with them. They have got some really key, really strong elements to their Nav, but then they've got an area that says more, and there's a load of stuff that's been added onto the more section, and things like this happen over time. 

Kelly Molson: When you've got a website, people will say, “I need this to be featured on the site, I need this page to put up there”, and it gets added to, and ultimately you end up with all these things that haven't been thought about from the start, about where they're supposed to go. So they get kind of bundled somewhere, and a more section kind of feels an obvious place to put them. But what is it? Users don't understand what's in there. And they're not going to go searching for hours to find something that they want. They need to find it quickly. And so that for me, is a huge no about bundling stuff into these kind of sections. That just so ambiguous, you don't know what they are. 

Paul Marden: I think that figuring out what people are trying to do, what are they trying to get out of the website? I think that bundling exercise, putting lots of things onto the site that happened over time or putting it in a bucket of more is often there's so many people in an organisation that want their content heard and seen, don't they? Everybody wants their content on the site. It all goes on there. And sometimes you have to step back and think, what's the point? Who is it that's coming to the site and what are we trying to get them to do? We want the customer at the end of it to think, now that you've read this, what are you going to do next? But we don't always think about that journey. 

Paul Marden: We think about the snippets of information that we put onto the site, but we don't think about what the journey is they're going through. Attractions are really lucky. I think a lot of the people that go to their sites are really motivated to buy, a lot more motivated to buy than the average ecommerce site. So how do you get out of the way of those people so they can just buy stuff? And then for the people that are less motivated, they don't necessarily want to know how, when and how much they still want to be sold on the idea of going to the attraction, then maybe you need to give them more information. 

Paul Marden: But identifying who those people are and giving them a journey to go through and coming up with a navigation that makes it really easy for those people to navigate along that journey, there's a lot of psychology that's hard. That's your prep work, isn't it, before you do the design? 

Kelly Molson: Yeah, and it's the hardest part of it. And I think that's where the most amount of time needs to be spent there and the wireframes really, the design. If you've got good brand guidelines in place, the design ultimately becomes a simplified process at that point. But the pre design work is really where the time and effort needs to be spent. And I think it is a challenge for attractions. So there are attractions that are, if you compare a Chessington World of Adventures, for example, a theme park orientated to a historic museum that you're coming to visit, that not only is an attraction, but obviously has a lot of historical information to share and learning and education plays a big part in them as well. You have different audiences for those. 

Kelly Molson: So I think one part of that process is you need to think about all the different audiences you have and what are their motivations for visiting the site and what do you want them to do, what actions do you want them to take? But I think when you are working, this has gone off a bit of a tangent, but when you're working with an agency, I think what's really core for the attraction is to make sure that you've got key stakeholders from each of those areas of your attraction that play a part in those early conversations. So you don't want the site redesign to be driven solely by the marketing team for the attraction side. You need someone from the education side to be part of those conversations as well. 

Kelly Molson: You need visitor experience to be part of those conversations because if you're planning content, each of those individuals will have a different need for what content they need to showcase on the site. So they all need to be talking to each other about how that's going to look. I'm talking from experience because this has not happened in the past. Paul's nodding his head at me because he knows that we've had this challenge previously.

Paul Marden: Yeah. 

Kelly Molson: So yeah, and I think that kind of leads us nicely onto content, really, and about the need to frequently update your site and keep it refreshed. So once you've done all of that hard work of working out what content is going to be on it doesn't stay static. So in the report we have a stat that says 31% of respondents said that they updated their online content multiple times a week. That's good. Another 31% said that they did so at least once a month. Good. However, 22% of respondents said they had infrequent content updates or didn't update their content at all. Not updating your content at all. 

Paul Marden: That surprised me, that one. Yeah, I was surprised that there were 31% of respondents updated it multiple times a week. I was really impressed by that. Yeah. That takes some work, doesn't it? To be able to produce that level of content change, but to do it infrequently or not at all, that surprised me. 

Kelly Molson: I guess it depends on the attraction and what their offering is as well. Thinking about one of our clients, Holkham actually, so we know that Holkham update their website frequently. They have a lot of different events, they write a lot of really incredible content about what happens across Holkham Estate. So they're engaging with the audience from the perspective of someone coming to visit and what they can do on the day and what they can come and see. But they're also talking about their wider sustainability efforts across the state and what they do and how they focus on that, which again, might be for that same audience. Might be for a slightly different audience as well. 

Kelly Molson: So the volume of content that they produce is a lot higher than potentially Thorpe Park as a visitor, they will talk about what's on that day and maybe an events that they're running, but they might not talk about the same things that are going on across the Estate that Holkham would, for example. So I think, yeah, it's what your attraction offers. 

Paul Marden: Holkham's a really good example because they can take inspiration from the place. They're very diverse, they've got lots of different things that they do at that location. It's quite a large location, but there's lots of different things going on and those things are inside and outside. They can take inspiration from the season. So there's a lot of inspiration that you can take there and produce. Just off the top of my head, I could think of lots of different stories that you could tell and changes to the site that can be inspired by the season. But then I think about a theme park where there's lots that goes on. I think I've done lots of trips to Legoland. There's Legoland at Halloween. There's Legoland in Spring time. It changes through the seasons and there's a lot of story around that. 

Paul Marden: I wonder if you're an indoor attraction, if you're Heritage Museum based, there's going to be lots of stories that you can tell about the items that you've got in your collection. But it might be harder to tell those stories influenced by the seasons, which can be a real driver for telling varying stories throughout a year, can't they? Yeah, but I don't write a lot of stories for those sorts of organisations, so maybe I don't have the right view of the world, but I would imagine it would be a lot harder to write lots of content varying through the year for that sort of organisation. 

Kelly Molson: Yes, probably so I'm just thinking about it would just be a change in topic, wouldn't it? So I know Blackpool Pleasure Beach, who Andy Hygate, the Operations Director, came on the podcast a couple of seasons ago, actually, and he talked about the experiences they've developed around walking up the big one and the rise that they have there. And actually, I think for people that are interested in theme parks, there's probably a lot of content around how things are built and how they're developed and that kind of side of stuff that people would be really interested in. So it's not talking about seasonal stuff, it's about the things and how they're constructed and how they're designed and kind of stuff like that. 

Kelly Molson: So, yeah, again, it comes back to just knowing your audience and what are they interested in and how you can engage them and what are your potential new audiences as well, and how can you develop content that attracts them. There is a correlation between content and purchases, though, which is quite interesting. So our report shows that those who were deliberate in ensuring their content was kept fresh and engaging saw an average of 25 to 50,000 completed website purchases a year, whereas those who didn't, on average, had around 10,000 completed purchases. In the same time frame. That's interesting. In addition, of the respondents who recognised the need for regular content updates but weren't action in them, 23% stated that their average sales conversion rate sat between one and 4%, which is below the benchmark for the sector. 

Kelly Molson: So the sector benchmark is 5% now, so that 1% is significantly low. 

Paul Marden: Absolutely. Shall we move on and talk about some testing? Because I know you think this one really is. 

Kelly Molson: Oh, yeah, I really do. So there is a statistic in the report that I had to reread a few times, actually, to believe. So last year's survey and report, we had about 70 attractions take part. This year has been significantly more than that. We got 188 attractions from up and down the UK and Europe take part, which was incredible.

Paul Marden: And one in North America as well. I was really excited when I saw that one. 

Kelly Molson: Yes, we went international. That was exciting. Okay, so think about this: 188 attractions took part in this. 70% of the respondents have never conducted user testing of any kind on their website. 70%! That's actually not the worst stat though. I'm going to save the worst stat for another episode, but that's not the one that shocked me the most. But this one is really surprising. We've talked a bit about making assumptions about how well your website is perceived by people.

Kelly Molson: Hard data from actual users is the key to designing a website that has an improved user experience because it can clarify problem areas and identify where most effort is needed to create a really great online experience. So if you're not asking your users how they're interacting with the site and do they like it? Can they buy things well? Can they find what they want? How do you know if it's good or not? It's blown my mind. 

Paul Marden: It's really hard, isn't it? Really hard. 

Kelly Molson: And I think it's really you wrote this down, actually. It's really important to be aware of a familiarity bias. So just because you think your website is easy to navigate doesn't mean other people think is it's because you're familiar with it so you understand where things are. Which is really interesting. Actually, I've just been reminded of a conversation that I had with somebody when I was at an attraction. Now I can't name this attraction, we're working with them and we're under NDA, but they asked me about a website that we'd redesigned. They said, "Oh, you did this website, didn't you?" I said, "Yes", "I can't find this thing anymore that I couldn't find. It took me ages to find it before" and I was like, "All right, what is the thing?" And he talked about what it was. 

Kelly Molson: I said, "Oh, well, it would be in this area". And he said, "Yeah, which makes sense. But before it was over here and I knew where it was and it just feels a bit weird now." I said, "Do you think it was in the right place before?". "Oh, no, shouldn't have been." Okay. So it's just because you know where it is doesn't mean it's actually in the right place. It's just what you get used to over the years. 

Paul Marden: It is incredibly hard to put yourself into the position of the person that knows nothing about your organisation. Trying to imagine what the customer is going through takes a lot of effort and I think that you can get data to be able to do that. But a lot of there's kind of levels of kind of understanding of that, putting yourself into that customer's position, the empathy that is required. Lots of people that we meet and work with will talk about how they want their site to be structured and what makes sense to them. Some people then will go the next stage and think about what they think their customer wants. And then there's a stage beyond that which is not even trying to put themselves into the customer position, but actually test what the customer thinks. 

Paul Marden: It's really hard to have the empathy to understand. If you know nothing, what would you do? And there's loads of stuff that you can do. I'm sure we'll come on to that later on to try to understand and test. But just sitting somebody down and watching them go from zero to hero and buying your tickets is a valuable thing that you could do, couldn't it? 

Kelly Molson: Yeah, absolutely. Now the report on the survey is anonymous. All the data that we get from it, we don't talk about the people that have submitted it and we don't talk about them. There was a number of websites within the data set that were doing really well in terms of both design and navigation and the impact that they were having on their conversion rate. So we reached out to these organisations to ask if we could talk about them today. And all of them were very happy for us to talk about it. So we have had their permission. I think I'll hand over to you, Paul, because you've been doing the analysis over on these sites. It's really lovely to see that Roman Baths are on this list.

Paul Marden: They’re on the list.

Kelly Molson: Because they have been on the podcast and they're our podcast alumni. So that was good.

Paul Marden: Yeah, more than once, I think, as well. 

Kelly Molson: Yes, they have been. 

Paul Marden: What I went looking for were who were the organisations that thought that they had good design and navigation in their site? But I didn't think that was really enough because of course you could think that it was good and it isn't very good. So what could I dig into the data to try to pull apart the people that thought they had good design and following through from that good design actually had good outcomes. And Roman Baths was up there in that top set of organisations that had they thought they had a good, consistent high quality design, but they also had a conversion rate up there in the top ratings that we had inside the data set. Obviously, Roman Baths really well known organisation, lots of international visitors will be going there. 

Paul Marden: There was another that I pulled out in the data set, which was also a really high profile brand. London Zoo came out in that top set. 

Kelly Molson: Also past podcast guests. Thank you. Yes, lovely people. 

Paul Marden: So they also thought they had good, consistent design, but coincidentally also had good quality conversion rates up there in the top performance in the data set. But to avoid you saying to me, "Oh, but all these are all big, internationally recognised brands. What's design got to do with it?" Up there we've got Roman Baths, London Zoo. Big, well known brands. But there's also some organisations that I wasn't familiar with in that data set. So there were organisations that are probably more regional, less internationally well recognised brands. And one of those that considered that they had good quality design and they also had high levels of conversion rates. Alongside that were Smithwick's experience in Kilkenny in Ireland. It's an attraction that is a brewery tour. I thought that one was really interesting when I went and looked at it. 

Paul Marden: It was really easy to navigate around the site, ridiculously easy to go and buy tickets. You go onto the site, it's right there to be able to buy those tickets, to go to that experience. So I think that told me that you didn't need to be a big, well recognised brand to be able to devote the time and attention and budget that's needed to get a good design, which then has the impact on your conversion rates. Yeah, this is not just for the big brands. This is also for other brands, smaller, regional brands that can maybe not devote the same levels of investment to it that a large organisation can, but they can still have good outcomes and good design. 

Kelly Molson: Yeah. And I think it's fair to say we do ask questions in the report about budget, but we don't ask them specifically. So we haven't asked. We don't, for example, know the investment that Roman Barths, London Zoo or Smithwicks have made in their website to get it to where it is now. We literally have no idea. So their budgets could be phenomenally big, they could be phenomenally small. We have no idea whatsoever. But we know that they have invested in good design and they've done it to a really great standard, which means it's easy for people to make purchases. Therefore their sales are sitting at a really great level. 

Kelly Molson: The Roman Baths I just a little shout out to Simon Addison, actually, because Simon did come on to the podcast a couple of times now, and actually he came onto a recent episode where we talked about the value of this report and the survey that we carry out. And this is its second year now and we can see the value in terms of the data that we've been able to glean from it is so much more insightful this year. The key insights themselves are much more in depth than they were last year. But one thing that Simon mentioned is that we don't work with Roman Baths. I've made that clear on the last podcast. We didn't design their website. We've not worked with them. 

Kelly Molson: They did use the report to inform some of the decisions that they made about designing their website and making changes to it, which I think is so great. Right. The report is actually actively doing what we set out for it to do. Regardless of whether anyone comes to work with us or not. Someone can take this report and use the insights from it to inform their current agency to make changes to their site that are going to make a significant difference to their bottom line. Well done, us. 

Paul Marden: Well done, us. But well done, everyone that's responded as well. 

Kelly Molson: Whatever. Well done, us. Well done, everyone. Thank you. 

Paul Marden: So I just think it's really impressive, isn't it, that we've got what was it you said? 180 something respondents from across the sector.

Kelly Molson: 188.

Paul Marden: It's so hard in a tough industry. There's lots of industries where people would not work together. And this is a collaborative exercise in sharing your data that takes a certain confidence within the sector to be able to be willing to share that information so that then somebody like us can then do the graph that aggregating that and seeing the interesting stories that people can then use to make things better. There's so many places where you would not see that happen.

Kelly Molson: It's a wonderful part of the sector, that collaboration and that willingness to share and be open about things. Right, let's talk about next steps then, because we've talked about some of the items within design, navigation, testing. We've talked about who's doing it well. Let's wrap this up with next steps that you can take.  

Kelly Molson: If you think some of these things are relevant to you and you want to do something about them. Do some testing. Do some testing and you can do that in a variety of ways. 

Paul Marden: Do you want me to test some stuff? 

Kelly Molson: Let's do some testing. Let's test. Look, there's loads of ways that you can do user testing if you're going through the process of a redesign at the moment. Go back to your wireframes, make them interactive. Do some internal testing, do some external testing. You can do this in multiple ways so you can do focus groups, get bums on seats in front of computers and give them some things that you want them to do on your site. Don't tell them how to do it, but just give them some things that you want them to achieve. I want you to buy a ticket. I want you to tell me how easy it is to go and find the interactive map. I want you to find a blog post and can you get from the blog post to buying a ticket, some of those things. 

Kelly Molson: This doesn't need to cost you a huge amount of money, right? You all have an asset in that. "Hey, would you like a free ticket to our venue if you come and do some testing for us?" Put on a little bit of lunch, put on people are really happy to help and give you feedback in that way. So that doesn't need to be a huge cost at all. You can use online tools, so we use tools like UserTesting.com. You can select a certain demographic that you want to test out and you upload what you want them to test. And then they go off and they do it, and they record videos, and you can see how they interact and they talk through what they're doing and how easy it was for them to do those things as well. 

Kelly Molson: They are not a huge, costly I actually don't know off the top of my head. There will be a fee to use the system, which will be a monthly fee and then there'll be a fee probably for that will cover X amount of tests within that monthly fee. So it will probably be from what, 150, maybe a month, something like that, maybe a bit more. 

Paul Marden: The cost depends as well on factors, how many factors you place on the do you only want people to do user testing that are of a particular demographic and age? If your attraction has mainly parents with young kids coming, do you want your user testing to be done only by parents with young kids? When you add more constraints to it, the cost of doing it becomes higher. But arguably the quality of the data that you get back from the testing is more relevant to you. 

Kelly Molson: You can do this with I've talked about going back to the wireframe stage. You can do this at any point. So great, do a load of testing before you go ahead and release something to the world. But if you've got something that's up and running now, do some testing. So you can do user testing on what you already have. You can do exit surveys so you can ask people once they've bought a ticket, you can ask them how easy that was. What did you find difficult? What were your challenges at the end of your purchasing journey? So there's small little things you can do there. 

Paul Marden: The world has changed a lot, hasn't it? In the last few years we've moved to almost exclusively online sales beforehand. So we've got this massive pool of data, of contact information of the people that have bought your tickets. That's such a great resource that you could use, which in previous years pre pandemic it would have been a struggle because a large chunk of your people would have been walk ins who you didn't necessarily it wasn't easy to capture those sorts of contact details and follow up with them. 

Kelly Molson: Yeah, exactly. And then I think there are things that you can do in terms of looking at your user experience and the design side of things. We do things like UX reviews for people. We actually offered one as a prize for all of the people that entered the survey this year and the lovely people at Cheddar Gorge won that. We're going to be looking at that in a couple of months for them. 

Paul Marden: Back near my home proper, that's Cheddar Gorge is where I went as a kid, like, so that's exciting to be. 

Kelly Molson: In that we'll be carrying that out later on in the year for them. So, yeah, there's things that you can do in terms of working with an agency to look at what your user journeys look like. Are they correct for the audience that you have? Does your design flow? Where are the barriers that you're seeing? And again, if you're looking at some of the data of where you're seeing people drop off, is that a design issue, is that a function issue? How do we work those things out? 

Paul Marden: There's loads of tools, isn't there, as well, like Hotjar that you can stick on, which doesn't cost a lot of money. And it's not just Hotjar, there are lots of other tools just like it which would give you insight into the behaviour of the users on the site. It's just a snapshot that you get for free, but that snapshot could really help inform decision making about maybe I need to make it easier for them to find the button because they're finding it hard to book tickets or whatever. 

Kelly Molson: Because they can't see where they need to book their tickets. 

Paul Marden: Yeah. 

Kelly Molson: So, yeah, I think in summary, do some testing is what I'm going to end this podcast episode with. Do some testing, come back and tell us what you find.

Paul Marden: Exciting. I'd love to have those conversations. 

Kelly Molson: As ever, if you want to get in touch with either of us, all of our contact details are in the Show Notes. If anything has sparked your interest that we've talked about today, we're really happy to answer any questions and things like that. So if you do want to ask any questions about any of the kind of stats that we've talked about, again, just our email addresses will be in the Show Notes. And also, if you haven't downloaded the report yet, why not? Because it's out. It launched yesterday. We did a webinar. Did you come to it? Why not? If not, but if you do want to go and download the report, we'll put the link to that in the Show Notes as well. But just head over to the rubbercheese.com website and you'll be able to find it. We'll see you next time. 

Paul Marden: Awesome. Thank you. 

Kelly Molson: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned. 

Skip The Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website, rubbercheese.com/podcast.

Download The Visitor Attractions Website Survey Report - https://www.merac.co.uk/download-the-visitor-attractions-survey

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Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is  Kelly Molson, Founder of Rubber Cheese.

Download the Rubber Cheese 2023 Visitor Attraction Website Report - the annual benchmark statistics for the attractions sector.

If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website rubbercheese.com/podcast.

If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this podcast

Competition ends on 20th December 2023. The winner will be contacted via Twitter.

Show references:

https://vacevents.com/

THURSDAY 5TH OCTOBER – QEII CONFERENCE CENTRE, WESTMINSTER

https://vacevents.com/committee/

Bernard Donoghue OBE

CEO & Director, ALVA, the Association of Leading Visitor Attractions, Mayor of London’s Culture Ambassador. Co-Chair, London Tourism Recovery Board.

https://www.alva.org.uk/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/bernard-donoghue-obe-0aa9b97/ 

Bernard has been the Director of ALVA, the UK’s Association for Leading Visitor Attractions, since 2011 following a career in advocacy, communications, and lobbying, latterly at a senior level in the tourism and heritage sector. In  2017, the Mayor of London, Sadiq Khan, appointed Bernard to be the Mayor’s Ambassador for Cultural Tourism and a member of the Mayor’s Cultural Leadership Board. 

Bernard is Co-Chair of the London Tourism Recovery Board. He is also Chairman of LIFT, London International Festival of Theatre; Chairman of the Bristol Old Vic, the oldest continually operating theatre in the English-speaking world, and also of the People’s History Museum, the Museum of Democracy.  He has been a member of the UK Government’s Tourism Industry Council since 2016.  Bernard was named by Blooloop in 2020 as one of the world’s 50 most influential people in museums, and in July 2021 won the public vote for the COVID Special Recognition Award from the UK Museums and Heritage Awards for his service to, and leadership of the museums and heritage sector in the UK during the pandemic.

Ken Robinson CBE FTS - Founder of VAC

https://www.linkedin.com/in/ken-robinson-cbe-fts-bb811312/

Ken is an independent adviser who speaks and writes on tourism topics.  As a "tourism enthusiast" he aims to be a pragmatic pioneer of new initiatives, strategies and solutions to optimise the economic, cultural and social benefits of tourism.   Ken’s Consultancy companies completed over 1500 assignments, mostly in the UK but also several hundred international projects, beginning over 50 years ago, before the days of mass tourism.  He was a founding member of the Tourism Society and supported the formation of the Tourism Alliance, both of which organisations he has served as a board member and Chair, as he has on several other Tourism bodies. 

Specialising initially in visitor attractions, Ken initiated and subsequently chaired the National Visitor Attractions Conference, VAC, and has been on its Committee ever since.  In addition to many clients in the public, private and third sectors, he has advised the UN’s International Trade Centre, on national and regional Tourism strategy development.  His current focus is to move the industry’s thinking from marketing to the critical need to manage future tourism for the benefit of host communities, and to optimise tourist’s experiences.  Ken was appointed CBE for services to Tourism in 1997, and an Honorary Doctorate in 2014.

Paul Kelly

Chief Executive, BALPPA, Chair of VAC 

https://www.balppa.org/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/paul-kelly-2714a922/

Having been with BALPPA for 11 years and working with VAC for that amount of time as well, Paul started his career in the attractions sector at Thorpe Park in the 80's and then moved on to the London Eye for its opening around the millennium.  He has  always been involved with visitor attractions.  Several more years working within Merlin followed both in the UK and abroad, mainly on business development.  Being a BALPPA member for 30 years means, being Chair of the organising committee at VAC keeps Paul in touch with all aspects of the attractions industry.

Liz Terry MBE

Managing Director, Leisure Media Group

https://www.linkedin.com/in/elizterry/

Janet Uttley

 Head of Business Transformation for VisitEngland

https://www.linkedin.com/in/janetuttley/

Transcriptions:

Kelly Molson: Welcome to Skip The Queue, a podcast for people working in or working with visitor attractions. I'm your host, Kelly Molson. Season 5 kicks off today with not one, not two, but three excellent guests.

On today's episode, I have the pleasure of speaking to Bernard Donoghue, Paul Kelly and Ken Robinson, founders of the Visitor Attractions Conference. You also know Bernard as, Director of ALVA and Paul as CEO of BALPPA.

VAC celebrates its 20th anniversary this year and I'm finding out where the idea for the event spanned from, how it's changed and developed over the years. And we take a look ahead to what 2024 has in store for the attraction sector.

Unfortunately, fellow Founder; Liz Terry, the Managing Director of Leisure Media Group, and also Janet Uttley, Head of Business Transformation for VisitEngland, were unable to join us on this episode. But stay tuned for lots of insight and to find out how you can get your ticket for the VAC conference this year.

Kelly Molson: If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue.

Kelly Molson: Bernard, Ken, Paul, it is a treat to have you all on the podcast today. Thank you for joining me. I think this is the first time I've had three guests as well, so this could be interesting. 

Bernard Donoghue: And three men as well. I mean, it's like a really bad testosterone banana rama, isn't it? Really. 

Kelly Molson: I’m just a little flower in the middle of you thorns today. Yes, it's a real shame. So, unfortunately, Janet Uttley and Liz Terry couldn't make it along to join us today, which is a shame. But I'm sure that they will get lots of mentions as we talk through some of the things that we're going to chat about today. But first, as ever, I want to start with a little icebreaker. I'm going to ask you all the same thing because I'm intrigued as to whether you ended up doing what you thought you might. So, Ken, I'm going to start with you first. When you were at school, what did you think that you'd grow up and be when you were older? 

Ken Robinson: I didn't know. 

Kelly Molson: Had no clue at all? 

Ken Robinson: No, I didn't have a clue. I was lucky to have a good education. I didn't work at school. And then I got into a job, which was I was very successful at it and it was very boring. So I left. And when I discovered tourism and visitor attractions, it took me over. I didn't decide to do it. It told me that was it. 

Kelly Molson: Oh, I love it. It's like a calling. 

Ken Robinson: At the time it was, I was actually sitting in a turret room which had been vacated by Lord Montague. His desk used to face in and I liked that because I didn't have to look at the faces of the visitors going past who might complain, because in those days, buli was very expensive. And then one day I thought to myself, these people are investing their hard earned money and leisure time in making a decision to come here and it's our job to make sure they have a good time. And I turned my desk round and I looked at them all day long and the moment I turned my desk round, everything changed. 

Kelly Molson: I love that, because you could see the whites of their eyes and how they were engaging with the venue as they turned up. 

Ken Robinson: Well, it's just such a failure, isn't it? If you've got somebody who makes a choice and spends their time and money, a family decision for many people, and it should be a highlight. And if it isn't, whose fault is it? It's probably the fault of the visitor attraction, given that the person has chosen to go there in not communicating well enough with them about what they've got and what they would find interesting. 

Kelly Molson: This is such a brilliant story and that wasn't where I was expecting this to go either, Ken. I love it. Paul, what about you, Paul?

Paul Kelly: Yeah, I mean, when I was at school, I was interested in sports and that was it, really, and luckily, that dragged me through the various places I went to. But what I was going to end up doing sports. I think once you get into sports quite seriously, you realise fairly quickly that actually you're not going to make it, so you have to find something else. So, laterally, I decided that business was a good idea. So I started doing business studies up in North Wales and for some reason were doing a sandwich course in those days, I think it was called that. One of those, I got placed at Thorpe Park. I don't know why particularly, so there's a group of six of us went down to Thorpe Park to work there and I actually started working on the rides.

Paul Kelly: I'm not sure what it had to do with business at the time, but I'm glad somebody thought it did. And I couldn't believe that was a job that you could do, you could be paid for, because I came from the north at that point and there wasn't an awful lot going on in the 80s and actually be paid. Everyone enjoyed themselves, fantastic atmosphere, parties every night. I'm sure it's still like that. And it was just amazing. And from that moment on, regardless of what happened after that, including other colleges, other bits and pieces, effectively, I never left. 

Kelly Molson: It's always going to be in that sector. 

Paul Kelly: Yes. 

Kelly Molson: Excellent. Great. Bernard, same to you. 

Bernard Donoghue: Well, this may come as a surprise, but my grandfather was in the Irish Guards, my father was in the Grenadier Guards, my brother was in the Royal Marines, and I had a very large collection of action men. I genuinely thought I would probably end up in the army. And actually, I got an offer after university to go into the Household Cavalry. I don't think I've ever told anyone this before. Anyway, it just clearly I didn't pursue the application. It wasn't for me at all. Got really into politics. So I started working in the House of Commons, House of Lords and the Council of Europe in Strasbourg, and then I've just been in sort of lobbying, campaigning, political world ever since. But I still miss the uniforms. Can't deny it. 

Kelly Molson: I think we'd like to see you in that uniform, Bernard, if I'm not going to lie. So from the lobbying aspect, which is obviously a really big part of the role that you currently have, how did the attractions bit kind of slot into those? Where did the two join up? 

Bernard Donoghue: It's a really odd coincidence. I was trustee of a charity that Diana, Princess of Wales, was a patron of, and I was working full time for a charity that she was a patron of. So when she divorced Prince of Wales, now the King, she reduced her patronages down from 187 to six. And I happened to be involved with six of them. I went to work for her as a deputy private secretary, press secretary. But of course, the moment she died, which was August 31st, I had no job. Suddenly I was unemployed. And I got contacted by a woman who Ken will certainly know, probably Paul will, too, by Sue Garland, who used to be Deputy Chief Executive of VisitBritain, who'd heard me speak at something and said, "Well, we're just about to create this post of government affairs liaison. Would you be interested to working on the role while working on what you do next?”

Bernard Donoghue: And that was in August 1997. And here I am still. 

Ken Robinson: But also, can I add something to that? Because I was lucky enough to be sitting in the room on many occasions when Bernard would give his briefing at meetings that were held by VisitBritain. And it was always a highlight of the day because Bernard, in those days, never pulled his punches. I'm not saying he does now, but he would just explain to everybody in the room what was going on with all of the political parties, which we never understood, and explain what we ought to be doing in order to best put our case. So it was really no shock when he turned up at ALVA, because I would say this if he wasn't here, he was the star of the show there, and that expertise that he showed has blossomed in the job that he's doing now. 

Kelly Molson: This is lovely, isn't it? Aren't you all nice? 

Bernard Donoghue: This is love in.. 

Kelly Molson: Probably why you all work together, right? You will get on so well. Right, back to you, Ken. Unpopular opinion, please. 

Ken Robinson: Most visitor attractions do not deliver full value for money to most of their visitors. 

Kelly Molson: Okay, Paul and Bernard, do you agree with this? Will our listeners agree with this? Is this an unpopular opinion?

Paul Kelly: Did you use the word most, Ken? 

Ken Robinson: I did. 

Paul Kelly: I'll go for some, not most. 

Bernard Donoghue: Yeah, I'll go for some as well. One of my favourite programmes is Yes, Minister. And whenever you'd hear something off the wall, bonkers, they would say, that's a very brave opinion, Minister. That's a very brave opinion, Ken.

Ken Robinson: Now's not the time to justify it. I'll do that on another occasion. 

Kelly Molson: Yeah, we will invite you back and we can do that one on one, Ken. Paul, what about you? Unpopular opinion? 

Paul Kelly: Well, I'm guessing that anybody that's worked in a theme park will probably have the same opinion I have. So I worked at Thorpe Park, which was 450 acres, two thirds of which was water. And at the end of the day, when you were walking out, and in those days, that could be 9, 10 o'clock at night, it was beautiful. On a late summer's evening, calm waters, walking through a park which had just been cleaned and tidied and ready for the next day. It was fantastic. And we all had the same opinion once were down the pub discussing the day. It's just a shame we have to let people into theme parks because it's the absolutely beautiful place without them there. So sometimes people let the parks down. 

Kelly Molson: That's a good one. That is a good one. Yeah. And you don't want to let them in to see the beautiful bit either, do you? Because then there'd be people there. It wouldn't be serene. 

Paul Kelly: No, I mean, those evenings, if there was still time, we'd go windsurfing on the lakes, cable water ski around the back. And it was just a shame that all these people came in every day and messed it all up. 

Kelly Molson: Yeah. Well, I'm pretty sure that most people who've worked in theme parks aren't going to disagree with you on that one, Paul. Good one. Bernard, what about yours? 

Bernard Donoghue: Even though I chair a theatre and I know how important the revenue is, I'm not a fan of selling drinks and food to people in theatres because they just make a noise. I can't bear it. I mean, it depends. I mean, it depends if it's a panto or something like that. Completely fine. 

Ken Robinson: Oh, no, it's not. 

Bernard Donoghue: It kind of allies to what Paul was saying as well, which was I don't know whether it's an unpopular opinion. I think it's probably a popular opinion. But visitor behaviour, whether it's in a theatre, a museum, an art gallery or wherever, has completely deteriorated post lockdown. Some people's behaviour is getting worse and it's very difficult to know what to do about it. 

Kelly Molson: Yes, agree. I don't think that's going to be very unpopular at all, actually, considering some of the things that we've seen recently. Thank you all for sharing. Okay, let's get back to the serious bit. The Visitor Attractions Conference. It's 20 years old this year. If you are listening and you're not familiar with it, one, why the hell not? And two, you need to grab a ticket today. It's the leading networking and learning event for visitor attractions across the UK. And I first visited in October 2019 and it was the first sector specific conference that I had been to. We'd been working in the sector for probably about three or four years, had never really at that point kind of gone all out on our like, "This is what we're going to niche and this is what we're going to specialise in."

Kelly Molson: So I was kind of doing a bit of a fact finding mission really, and I came along and it absolutely blew me away. I think it was one of the friendliest conferences I've ever been to. I think you'd created an environment where everybody was really welcome, no stupid questions. Everyone from speakers to guests where kind of felt like they were all on the same level, really happy to answer questions that you had, really happy to talk to you. And I think that was for me. I came away from that event, I went back to my team and said, "This is where we should be. This is the event for us, this is where we should be attending, these are the people that we should be speaking to." And I've absolutely loved every minute of that. 

Kelly Molson: I mean, the next one I went to was a virtual one. So it was very different to the 2019 event, but still excellently organised. So firstly, thank you for making that happen. But where did the idea for the VAC come from in the first place? How did this come about? 

Ken Robinson: So we have to remember that the world was very different over 20 years ago. Really, really very different. Not just a question of internet or pre COVID and all those things and pre Olympics, but just very different. And attractions in those days thought and acted and communicated in their sectoral associations. Historic houses talked to historic houses, curators of museums talked to curators, bishops talked to priests, zoologists talked to botanists, but they didn't talk across the sectors. There were two exceptions to that. One was that in Visit England or English Tourist Board, there'd always been a committee there which was across the sectors, but the other one was ALVA. Now, when ALVA was formed, it was a 1 million visitors plus club for attractions, with 1 million plus visitors a year. 

Ken Robinson: Subsequently, groups of attractions, particularly English Heritage, National Trust, were involved originally associates, but it was a 1 million plus club and that's only 1% of the attractions in the United Kingdom had over 1 million. And it was very London centric. And ALVA had a five objectives, four of which were about government. And the interesting thing was that I was very good friends all through this time with Lord Lee, who know a very big part of the early success, pre Bernard of ALVA. I said to John Lee, “Look John, could you not change your name to ALVA and be involved with all the visitor attractions because they badly need something which glues everybody together and we need to get across this away from this sectoral stuff.” 

Ken Robinson: And everybody was talking about historic houses, talk about the house museums, talking about the continents of the museum but they weren't talking about visitors. They weren't talking about how you communicated with the visitors or what they were motivated by or how you could better manage things for visitors, give them better they weren't doing that. So John agreed with this and I've got the original papers here. I looked them out that I was asked first of all by ALVA in December of 2001 to write a paper on the future of ALVA which is headed: ALVA in the Future Representing All Visitor Attractions. Then after that the conversation went on and we realised that if were going to have some kind of overall event we couldn't do it without the National Tourist Board, we couldn't do it without Visit Britain, Visit England. We needed their input.

Ken Robinson: We needed them to talk to DCMS and make sure it would happen. And also we wanted to do this not on a commercial basis but being by the industry, for the industry, run by the industry, not for profit. And that was a problem because we wanted to do it in the QE II Centre because we wanted to be in the centre of everything and that was going to cost an extraordinary sum of money and there wasn't that much money that could in that first year come originally from VisitEngland. So the partners in this, the partners being ALVA, BALPPA, Paul's organisation, Leisure Media the wonderful Liz Terry and her magazine which has forever been behind this event for no recompense whatever and myself put up 5000 pounds each security in order that the thing would happen. 

Ken Robinson: You said, "We'll stand the risk, let's do it.". So in 2004 I wrote the briefing of the first conference and I found from a 2003 the government asked for a list of topics that would be discussed in order they could work out whether or not they might like it and it's still here. What I like about it is it would do quite well for this year's conference. All those topics are still relevant. So that's where it came from. That's where it came from. We wanted it to have at the time the lowest possible attendance fee to get the highest number of people there. We wanted to involve everybody. 

Ken Robinson: And the cast list for that 2004 event, my goodness me, absolutely fantastic cast list in terms of the people we had for an initial event and you can imagine when it was announced and everybody was behind it ALVA was behind it. BALPPA, I should have mentioned that Colin Dawson, Paul's predecessor was an absolute stalwart of the conference in the early years he stood by know, when times were tough and that's where it came from. 

Kelly Molson: That is phenomenal. It was really putting your money where your mouth is, isn't it? By all of you actually personally investing in this thing to bring it to life. You don't hear many things happening in that way anymore, do you? It's all about getting investment and asking other people to make the commitment to it and take the risk. 

Ken Robinson: Well, we have a company now, I should say. We have a company called VAC Events, and we are all equal. The four of us are equal shareholders, that's to say, Bernard and ALVA, BALPPA and Paul, Liz and myself, for no benefit. Martin does it for us, but we are the people that carry the can, if you like, and I don't think we've ever had anything out of it apart from a nice lunch at Christmas, but apart from that, it's a great feeling of doing something. When you say everybody is very friendly and talks to one another. That's why they're all in the same business. Bishop, curator, zoologist person running a heritage railway, they're all in the same business. 

Kelly Molson: Obviously, the first event was a success. You've been on and you've done many, what, 20, 20 events since that first one. How have you seen it kind of change and develop over the years? So what did that first conference look like compared to what this year's will look like? And how have you kind of evolved it over that time to keep it relevant to your audience? 

Paul Kelly: Well, I think so. My involvement directly has been the last ten years, so I'm halfway through chairing for this one, but I was actually there at the early ones because I worked at that time. I was working at the London Eye, just across the river, and I was good friends with Colin Dawson at the time. I'd worked with him at Thorpe Park and he for some people, may well remember Colin as entertaining Princess Diana on a log flume in 92, 3 and 4. 

Paul Kelly: And I was there. It's hard to tell, but I was actually there. I'm not in any of the photos in Paris Match and all of those places. I have a couple of myself here. I didn't get anything signed by Princess Diana and sent over to you know, bitterness takes a while to and I've joked with Colin over this many years. Colin was there, but if you look closely behind the scenes, you'll find I was there too, but so I was great friends with Colin over many years and still am. He was obviously contacting everyone he knew about this conference. He was working for BALPPA at the time. I was working for the Two Swords Group, had the operational contract for the London Eye. 

Paul Kelly: So I went to the first one and I suppose my impressions of the first one was for somebody who hasn't been there before, the QE II is extremely impressive as a conference center. I don't go to many that look like that around the UK. Most of them normally the ones I go to are in attractions, they're slightly different so it was hugely impressive both on its location and what was across the road and how things went and I was a little bit starstruck I suppose, for the first one. Now I get the opportunity to sit on the stage and look out at everybody and have a slightly different view on it all, but still think it's an extremely impressive environment to do that. 

Paul Kelly: And I think the biggest change for me, and I think we may cover a little bit later, is how we've broken up the afternoons into separate segments and sections where people can go along to a smaller, informal group discussing a topic that they particularly want. And I think the thing I also like about that is the amount of people who want to go to more than one of them that are on at the same time and are almost complaining there's too many things to go to, which I think is hilarious, which means it's really good. And hopefully that means that next time they'll really think about which one do I want to go to, obviously I want to go to more than one, but I'm going to pick my best one. 

Paul Kelly: So I think for me, that's probably the biggest change over time. But what doesn't change for me is the team that we have putting these things together, which we're actually relatively slick at. Everyone gets the chance to put their opinions and I'm glad we don't record those meetings and it works out really well. And I think as a team, it's amazing how long we've stuck at it and stuck together. 

Kelly Molson: I'd love to be on a little fly on the wall for those meetings. Have you ever had a fallout about something? 

Bernard Donoghue: Yes, we're frequently violent. It's a visitor experience in its own right, I think. 

Kelly Molson: I’ll pay for it. 

Bernard Donoghue: We reflect the madness that some of our visitors demonstrate on site so in that case I think we're rooted in the industry. The first one that I went to was in 2011, so I just joined ALVA at that point. And the first one I spoke, it was in 2012 and I've been doing the same kind of slot ever since. I do a kind of State of the Nation in the morning because ALVA obviously gets loads of data and information and we publish all of our visitor figures and all the rest of it, and actually we collect and commission much more data now than we ever used to. So I share all of that in the kind of Donoghue half hour copyright. 

Bernard Donoghue: What's lovely I mean, Paul's absolutely right is that over the last twelve years I think we've seen a real move from people desperately wanting to speak about their successes to being really open about what hasn't worked, which of course is far more interesting and useful. So there's been a really lovely shift from people saying, "No, I don't have to do the propaganda stuff.” Actually, I'm going to tell you what it was like, why it was a disaster and what we learned from it. And that's so useful. So you do get this real honesty coming from the speakers who know that's what they find useful too. So why not share it? I think the other one is I do a presentation about, is there core behaviours of successful visitor attractions regardless of type?

Bernard Donoghue: And there are there's about ten of them, but one of them is the ability to foster creative partnerships with unusual suspects. So the presentations that are most fascinating for me is where a visitor attraction, it doesn't matter whether it's a cathedral or whether it's a museum or gallery or theme park, have teamed up with someone that you wouldn't expect them to team up with to tell the story of their people and places and collections in a new, innovating, exciting way. And those are fascinating, absolutely fascinating. So I love those. There's much more of that. 

Kelly Molson: Fantastic. Well, on that note, I want to know from each of you who has been the most inspiring speaker that you've had at the conference over the past 20 years. Ken, let us start with you. Who do you think would be on your list for that? 

Ken Robinson: I had a look through the programs going back to 2004 and came up with the following names which surprised me, actually. I think originally our first most inspiring speaker was Simon Jenkins, the columnist of the Times, who had very strong views, which didn't necessarily agree with what government and others were doing. He did give a very inspiring presentation and then there are some people who perhaps we would expect less. The most single most surprising speaker was somebody called Tristram Mayhew, who titles himself as the Chief Gorilla of Go Ape and in a room full of suits and quite smart dresses and trouser suits, Go Ape shambled onto the stage in a car key shirt and proceeded to explain how he'd done things differently. And frankly, it was riveting. We had a chap called Tony Berry from the National Trust who gave presentations. 

Ken Robinson: His first one was just stunnning, you know, in the days when HR was less popular, Tony Berry would tell you why you should be interested and he was absolutely amazing. And Sue Wilkinson, incidentally, of the National Trust, who was the person responsible really for dragging the Trust from its sort of old form to its new marketing orientated thinking about its supporters future success? She was terrific. And the other person I would mention another Tony, I don't know whether or Tony's there's Tony Butler from the Museum of East Anglian Life, who again, when Bernard was talking about people talking about doing things differently and it inspires you. Some of those examples are very interesting, but not easy to copy. 

Ken Robinson: In other attractions, we always look for things that do go across the piece, so anybody can learn from the lessons within the example that we're talking about. And incidentally, we do have arguments in meetings, it's about whether particular speakers and particular topics are the way of doing things. And generally speaking, when we all have a good go at it comes out better than it did when anybody said, “Well, I know what the right answer is. No, you don't. Let's all talk about it. So that works.” So you get these people that actually inspire and they light up the room, not because of clever graphics and not because of a forceful way, but they light up the room because of the originality of their ideas. Now, I'll come to my number one. 

Ken Robinson: I'm sorry about this, because he's sitting on my screen down there, and that's young Bernard, who since he joined our there you go. That's the top half that works. You should see the bottom half doesn't work. He's just had pins put in it. 

Kelly Molson: Just for our listeners here, Bernard is given a little muscle strong arm salute on screen here. 

Ken Robinson: Bernard combines the latest immediate knowledge of talking to people across the industry with an absolutely amazing gift of the gab, with a power of communication. And he's unstoppable. And we wouldn't have stood him for all these years if he wasn't. So of all the years and all the speakers, the consistent best is Bernard. But we have had other people, often surprising, who take know, you don't expect it, you think you're going to listen to ordinary session, all of a sudden it takes fire. 

Kelly Molson: Bernard, what have you got to say to that? 

Bernard Donoghue: What I say to Ken is there are packets of cash going from London to the south coast with immediate effect. Delighted. Thank you very much. It's really lovely, actually. I've tried to change things every year to do partly political, but also partly about good practice and who's doing what and who's interesting. I'll tell you what, one of my favourite speakers, and it was in a conversation, one of the things that we've introduced is a sort of conversation with slot, which works really well, actually, because a bit like this, you're off script, you respond to people. Liz chaired a conversation last year, so were in Birmingham last year and it was all about HR issues and of course, it know, coming out of COVID and cost of living crisis and recruitment challenges and all of those kind of stuff. 

Bernard Donoghue: And Tina Lewis is the director of people at the National Trust. National Trust, getting great repertoire here. She came out with an idea that they're doing at the National Trust and I've implemented it in the three organisations that I chair and it's made the biggest difference. So the National Trust, they will pay the rent deposit for your flat if you need them to. So if you're going through a cost of living crisis and you can't get up the cash to put down a rent deposit on your flat, they'll do it for you. You can't get up the cash to put down a rent deposit on your flat, they'll do it for you. That was such a transformational thing to hear. You could almost hear the gasp in the room of people going, "Oh, my God. Yeah, if we can, let's do that." 

Bernard Donoghue: And I've now introduced it. As I say in the organisations that I chair, not many people have taken it up, but the fact that we've said it has made such a difference to people. I mean, as it is at the Trust, actually, there's been a relatively small number of people at the Trust who've taken it up, but the very policy decision, the very communication of it, just spoke volumes about an organisation that cares about its staff, and particularly those staff who are on really limited budgets. So there's been loads and loads of speakers over the course of the last few years, but that for me was a nugget which has changed people's lives and has been implementable. 

Kelly Molson: I think that's the key to that part, isn't it, is that it's an incredible thing that they've done, but the fact that it can be implemented someone has listened to that talk. They can take that away, take it to their board, take it to whoever needs to okay that, and they can put that into action like that straight away. That's the power of a really good initiative and a good speaker to be able to deliver that as well. Paul, what about you? Please don't say Bernard. I think he's had enough praise today. 

Bernard Donoghue: No, keep going. 

Kelly Molson: No. 

Paul Kelly: You're OK, Bernard? We'll leave that one where it is, shall we? If we can squeeze Bernard into the room next. Right, so one special mention I wanted to give, actually, which is one of the years not too long ago, we invited Simon Calder to speak, the travel journalist, and I have to say I wasn't convinced, because clearly he's not working in one of our attractions and doesn't necessarily know the industry pretty well. But I have to say, he was hugely entertaining, had done his homework, was hugely knowledgeable, and so he was absolutely excellent. But I think the most important thing for me is that he left us and he said to me, “Enjoyed it so much, I'll come back later.” And I said, “Yes, of course you will.”

Paul Kelly: So he went away and he came back at the end of the day to talk to all the people that he'd seen early in the day, because he loved the atmosphere and he wasn't required to do that. And he came along. And for that I have to put a special mention in one for myself to actually listen to the others when they say, “This will be good”, and secondly for him, for actually doing a bit and actually coming back later. And he was a fabulous addition and outside of our industry. So my inside the industry one is somebody I ended up working with because I was with the Two Swords group and then they were bought by Merlin with Nick Varney and his Merry Men. 

Paul Kelly: So Nick and his team had obviously been in the industry a very long time at this point, dipped in and out of theme parks and attractions. But Nick didn't actually do many talks. You wouldn't actually hear him speak about too much. I'd heard him speak over in the IAAPA trade show held in Orlando every November, and he was absolutely brilliant. And then Ken managed to get him to speak at VAC one year. And again, he was absolutely excellent. And this fits in nicely because now that he's retired from Merlin, he's speaking again this year. So I think that will be really interesting because he's absolutely excellent. 

Ken Robinson: And by the way, guys, just to show you that we know what we're doing here, this is 2004, okay? And it says here the recipe for success. Nick Varney chief executive, will talk about the components for commercial success. And that's before. So we've got him first and look what happened. 

Kelly Molson: I'm really looking forward to that interview, actually, and I think it would be really interesting to see how he differs now. He's kind of outside of the sector, and I think that the format that you've got him in. So that's the interview with Liz, isn't it? On stage? I think that's going to be a really great format as well. I've seen that work really well in the past where she's interviewed people and it just feels really comfortable and really conversational. I think that brings out the best of people. 

Bernard Donoghue: Kelly, do you want to know who's been of most variable quality? 

Kelly Molson: Oh, yes. 

Bernard Donoghue: Tourism Minister. I mean, without doubt. I mean, we've been going 20 years now, therefore we've had 20 tourism ministers, had one a year, like Christmas cards. And some of them have completely got the industry completely understood. It delivered a barnstorming speech, and then the next year you'll get the annual Tourism Minister pop up and they'll read something flat, banal, uninteresting. And we're so torched by the experience that we don't invite the one next on the year. So we're always banging on about this. Tourism is very good at job creation. In fact, we've created 20 Tourism Minister jobs in years, but they are of variable quality. 

Ken Robinson: The best we ever had, Bernard, I think, by far, was John Penrose, when he had completed his review of the industry and got very clear views, which he put to government. Unfortunately, government didn't do it, as they usually don't, but he was good and people liked him and gave him a high rating. I think the next best was probably Margaret Hodge, who was very good and spoke from the heart. But as you say, when we look at every year, we look at a rating of every speaker and the meeting after the event, we go through those ratings and decide, those that got good ratings, why did they get it? Was it intrinsic to their character, their nature, their topic? Was there something special? And those who didn't, why was that? Was it our fault? 

Ken Robinson: Did we not brief them properly? Or was it never going to be any better? 

Ken Robinson: And that way we managed to manage the conference. So know the attraction sector. We sometimes forget that over half of all visits to visitor attractions in the UK are free of charge. We forget that the majority of visitor attractions are medium and small businesses. We forget that there are charitable and commercial attractions. We must be able to bring this whole sector together and move our thinking forward in the way that Bernard has just explained in terms of what he does with ALVA. And the other thing that Bernard mentioned was ALVA's research now. 

Ken Robinson: 20 years ago, you had to wait until the annual book came out from Thames Tower and then eventually from the centre of luck look to page 16 and there would be numbers, but very little interpretation of what those numbers meant. Now, Bernard is behind much of the work that is done now with ALVA. But the key to it is it's not just numbers, it's interpretation. And because of the communication skills, when ALVA put out a message, it is interpreted. It says why it was a successful year or what was mitigating against that. And that's so important in trying to move our case forward. 

Kelly Molson: But it's important in improving the content that you give your audience at the conferences as well, right? If something isn't working and you've got a process of evaluating why that hasn't worked and how you improve on it for the next one. Let's just focus on why should people attend VAC this year? What is in it for them? What's on the agenda? What have they got to look forward to and how can we get them to book a ticket? 

Bernard Donoghue: I'll happily go first and go quite niche, actually. One of the things that I do now outside of ALVA, or because of ALVA is that I co chair the advisory board for VisitLondon. So essentially chair the London tourist board. And I do that with Kate Nichols of UK hospitality. And we created the London Tourism Recovery Group during COVID So my suggestion would be Sadiq Khan. So we've managed to get the Mayor of London to come along and speak at this anniversary conference. And it's not just because he's the Mayor of London and it's the 20th anniversary, but it's because he's the first ever Mayor of London that hazard one of his four political priorities, culture and tourism. That's number one. 

Bernard Donoghue: Number two is that he put his money where his mouth was and he funded the Let's Do London Recovery campaign, which was both domestic and international with the industry. We delivered it with London and partners, but he put up the lump sum behind it. And third, he completely gets that tourism and heritage and culture is both where you grow jobs and we're very good at it, but it's also where you grow people. It's where you grow people in terms of their cultural literacy or their sense of community or their independence or their sense of history. And therefore knowing where you come from enables you to be a better future citizen, if you like. 

Bernard Donoghue: So my quick blast would be we've got him doing a welcome, but also saying why visitor attractions and tourism are so important to him and to the economy and the politics of London. So that's not to be missed. 

Kelly Molson: That is a big draw. Absolutely a big draw. Paul, you mentioned earlier about the variety in splitting up that second session, that second part of the day with the seminars and the smaller talks that you do as well. That for me, as an attendee, is really valuable because you can kind of pick and choose what's relevant to you and go along and see lots of different talks. What do you think is the draw for people to come to the conference this year for you? 

Paul Kelly: Well, I was just jotting down, thinking about it's a little bit. An extension of what Ken was talking about is that it's the variety of what we do in one place is greater than anywhere else. And all the conferences I do because of the nature of what we do each end of the spectrum. So we've got talks about people who run charities to people who run hugely commercial operations. We've got people doing talks on which are free to get into those who are quite expensive, but focus on value for money. And you've got those that are indoor, those that are outdoor. When I spent my time business development at Merlin, they were always focused on a balanced portfolio. And a balanced portfolio meant making sure that right across your business, you have every aspect covered. 

Paul Kelly: So everything balances indoor, outdoor, UK, Europe, USA, whatever it is. And I think with our conference, that's what we try and do, we try and balance all of those types of different types of operations so that everything is covered, not to the point where it's too thin and you don't learn anything. And that's the key to it, is that we go into the depth. And the depth, I think, is greater now because we do those breakout sessions and we've got time to do in fact, we double up for those three different areas just for that afternoon. So I think those are the things, if anyone asks me why they should come, it's about the variety.

Kelly Molson: Regardless of size of your attraction as well. And actually, from my perspective as a supplier to the industry, it's just as valuable to come along and learn and understand what's going on in the sector. You don't have to be an attraction to come along and take part and be educated about what's happening in the sector. What about you, Ken? 

Ken Robinson: Well, I think that those of us who have stood on the stage at the QE II Centre and looked at the people who have come can see that there aren't any slumbering faces out there. There are people making notes, people nudging the person next to them, people looking round when we ask a question. We now have a sort of red and green card system for, do you agree? Don't you agree? Which we sometimes use, which is very interesting, engaging the mood of the room. And I think that the thing about VAC is don't be lazy if we're going to come to VAC. Don't be lazy. If you're coming to VAC, l And jot down what questions you might like to ask those people or what you'd like to learn from that session. Write it down, don't think you can remember it at the time. 

Ken Robinson: Bring it on a note with you when you come and then you will find, and we all know this, that the networking that happens at the end of the day and in the breaks at VAC it's like a family wedding in a way. I mean, everybody wants to talk to everybody else and it's so valuable. I think everybody who goes away from VAC should have a good few things that day, which they say, “I wouldn't have thought of that if I hadn't been there”, or even, “I disagree with that”, but it's made me realise what my true opinion about that is equally valuable. But don't be a lazy attendee. Come and participate, come and enjoy, come and learn, come and take back benefit to everybody that works with you. 

Kelly Molson: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I think that thing about not being scared to ask questions is really valid as well, Ken, because this happened to me, actually. I went to one of the seminar sessions, and this is back in 2019 and was really inspired by one of the speakers about it was Julez Osbek, who was at Continuum Attractions at the time, and she talked about marketing segmentation, but had a completely different perspective on it in terms of not doing it demographically, just talking about age brackets and things like that. And it was really interesting. I didn't get a chance to ask a question during the seminar, but I found her afterwards and she was very approachable, very happy to answer my question. And then I stalked her on Twitter and got her to come on to the podcast afterwards to talk about it. 

Kelly Molson: But that's for me, what VAC is about. It's the openness that people are really willing to share. So don't be afraid to go and find the speaker that you've been inspired by and go and ask them the question afterwards, because everyone's really happy to talk about their topic and they're really happy to help people. That's my little key takeaway from it anyway. Right, so it's going to be on Thursday, the 5th October. This podcast episode is launching on the 20th September, so you haven't got long to go and get your tickets, so make sure you do. It is the 5th October, the QE II Conference Centre in Westminster. The website address is vacevents.com. That's Vacevents.com and you can get your ticket there. All of this information will be in the show notes, so don't worry if you didn't get time to scribble that down. 

Kelly Molson: While I've got you all, though, because you all are in the sector and you've got lots of insights to share. I want to know from each of you what you think that attractions should be focusing on and what 2024 might look like for the sector. Paul, what about you? Start with you. 

Paul Kelly: So I've been chatting to some of our operators. We have some very large operators around the UK asking them how it's going? And unsurprisingly, you could have said the same question 20 years ago, what's our biggest challenge? It's the weather. It's not actually the cost of living crisis, it's not COVID you can put plans together for those things and you can work on it, but the weather always is a little bit of a challenge. So this summer inverted commerce has been quite hard to focus on what we can deliver when the days have been half decent. Actually, we've done quite well, we always do relatively well, certainly in our sector, I'm sure the others will agree, in a recession. 

Paul Kelly: So the key seems to be, and I'm going to put it out, I haven't quite found the right words for it, but I'll develop this once I've spoken to a few more. What every attraction for me has to have is an opportunity for people to downgrade what they did slightly. What they're doing is they're ringing it up and saying, "Can't afford to do this, have you got something that's almost like that?" But whether it's a slightly different experience, less time, one day less so whatever the packages are that people are offering, there has to be one rung lower than it was before to still encourage people to come along because they're not able to reach the same heights at the moment that they did previously. But they still want to have that family experience that day out, create those memories. 

Paul Kelly: All of those things are still relevant. And if you don't have that opportunity, then they'll either go elsewhere or they won't go. So, again, it's managing. So I'm not talking about huge discounts, I'm talking about being relatively clever in what you package and what you put together to make sure they still attend and they still get what they perceive to be value for money. But unless you have that option then I think they won't come. 

Kelly Molson: Really great advice, Paul. Thank you. Bernard, what about you? 

Bernard Donoghue: Like Paul, actually, especially since Lockdown ended, but actually for about the last five or six years I've noticed a particular thing which is where visitor attractions have got reserves, and that's a big if by the way, particularly in the course of the last couple of years. Actually, especially since Lockdown ended, but actually for about the last five or six years I've noticed a particular thing which is where visitor attractions have got reserves, and that's a big if by the way, particularly in the course of the last couple of years. So it comes back to Paul's point about kind of ensuring yourself against the excesses of the weather and making sure that you're still particularly a family attractive visitor attractions that'd be one. Second is cost of living crisis, certainly for the average customer, but also the energy costs for visitor attractions too. 

Bernard Donoghue: Just crazy amounts of money that visitor attractions are now paying i If you're a zoo or an aquarium you can't turn down the temperature of your botanics you're a living reef. So we're going to have to find some way out of that. And that means that actually for many organisations it's going to be as financially challenging over the next twelve months as it has been over the last two. And then I think the third, and this is a continual for me and Kelly, you and I have talked about it before, but it forms the last session of the day at the VAC conference which is diversity and inclusivity. And my feeling is that every visitor attraction should be critically honest about who comes, who doesn't, why they don't come and what are you going to do about it?

Bernard Donoghue: And in particular those organisations who in receipt are government money or public money or who had COVID loans from the UK taxpayer. If their visitors don't look like the community in which they're housed, they have a moral question at the heart of their business. That's it. If you want to take public money you need to have an audience that looks like the diversity of the public. And that's a challenge. I get that, I completely get that. But I think that making sure that we are as accessible in every conceivable way, economically, physically. Accessible to people and that they see their stories and themselves reflected in their collections and people and staff and volunteers and board members, I think that's the biggest challenge of the sector as it is indeed to many other sectors. 

Bernard Donoghue: But I think we're doing some amazing things and we need to shout about it and we need to share and we need to learn from each other. 

Kelly Molson: Absolutely agree. And that session is going to be a really great session. That's one not to miss. Ken? 

Ken Robinson: Well, I would say two things. First of all, as far as our visitors are concerned, I think there is a bigger polarisation now than there ever has been between those who have money and can still afford to do things and are not much impacted by the current circumstances, despite everything. And those who haven't and those who haven't have got to find ways of saving money, getting more for their money. There are so many things they can do that are free and alternatives that charged attractions find it difficult. I think we have to remember that the biggest number of attractions in the United Kingdom are heritage based attractions and they weren't purpose built like many of Paul's members, the attractions are purpose built for entertainment. But heritage attractions have got a bigger responsibility or museums housed in historic buildings. 

Ken Robinson: And all the time they're having to cut their costs and finding life difficult. Money isn't going into maintaining that National Heritage. And that's a real big long term challenge, one that government can't ignore. So government has a vested interest in the health of our businesses because the more healthy they are, the less will fall back on the state eventually. One last thing, I would like to mention Martin Evans and the tourism business. 

Ken Robinson: For the last I don't know how many years, Martin has been the person who has put together this event for us. He has to do the heavy lifting. He is backed up by our conference organisers, who are also very efficient. And the other person that I wouldn't like to miss from this, because if she could have been here today, you would have got a different flavour, is the wonderful Liz Terry and the support that her organisation. That's Liz's Organisation, her hard work in Leisure Media Group. She publishes Attractions Management magazine. 

Ken Robinson: She has never asked for anything from this conference and she gives it great support, without which we wouldn't have made 20 years, as I said earlier. And also a big shout and a screen for Liz. 

Kelly Molson: That is lovely. Thank you. I'm sure Liz will very much appreciate that. We won't forget her. Don't worry, she'll be on the credits for this podcast. I always ask our guests to leave us with a book recommendation for our listeners. So a book that you've loved, a book that you've enjoyed as part of your career growth can be absolutely anything. So, Paul, what would you like to share with us today? 

Paul Kelly: Oh, I tell you what, books are a bit highbrow for me. Yes, Bernard agrees with that. So I'm from the north, so I used to travel a lot when I was working North America. Commuting a little bit. So I did read a little bit then, but I very quickly swapped over to podcasts things that I download. I watch Silent Witness from the 90's, early 2000s repeatedly. I like Meet Marry Murder, which is one of the cable channels, so I'm quite simple. So I don't really have a book recommendation. I think when I have time to read, I will look forward to reading what somebody else recommends. 

Kelly Molson: Well, I will take Silent Witness as a recommendation because I love Silent Witness, Paul. Oh, so good. Never miss an episode, ever. So, OK, they go I mean, I can't give it away as a prize, but go and check out Silent Witness if you haven't. Bernard, what's yours? 

Bernard Donoghue: Well, I've been on this before and I remember my recommendation and it sounds really facile, but it was absolutely true, was Ladybird Books when I was a kid, and then that's how I got into history and heritage and storytelling and absolutely loved them. And I've still got loads of them, which is a bit sad, actually. I'm currently confined to home with a broken ankle. So I've been going through my big Bernard book of books, of all the ones that I haven't got around to reading, and the one that I've enjoyed most and has really surprised me is Lucy Worsley's biography of Agatha Christie. Absolutely fascinating. I thought I knew her. I thought I knew all about her. I know all of her characters, I've watched every conceivable film and TV program, but what a fascinating woman. 

Bernard Donoghue: So that's the one that I've loved this summer. 

Kelly Molson: Great recommendation. Yeah. I wondered what were going to get from you, actually, because you've had a lot of time on your hands to go through that book pile. 

Bernard Donoghue: It was either going to be Agatha Christie or the Argos catalogue. Honestly, it could have gone. 

Kelly Molson: It's not Christmas yet. You only do the Argos catalogue at Christmas. Ken, over to you for our last recommendation. 

Ken Robinson: Well, the best book quite hard to get hold of now, but I can supply copies is Action For Attractions, the National Policy Document, written in 2000. But if you want something other than that, then I have just finished reading a book which everyone else read years ago called Sapiens, which is about this thick, that's to say two and a half inches thick. For those of you listening. It's by somebody, I've just had to look him up because I couldn't have remembered it, by Yuval Noah Harari. And it's entitled A Brief History of Humankind. And what's so interesting about it is it goes through segments explaining the great moves that have happened to us humans since we appeared on this Earth. 

Ken Robinson: And I found the whole thing fascinating to read in one go what took me a long time, particularly the last bit, which talks about how commerce has changed the world and what we're all doing, and that's, after all, what we're doing at VAC. We are engaged in the kind of commerce that is to entertain, amuse and give enjoyment to our visitors, and at the same time keep the heritage of the country going and keep an awful lot of people employed, so I recommend Sapiens. 

Kelly Molson: Ken, that's a great book. It took me a really long time to read as well, but it is an absolutely fascinating book. I would totally back up your recommendation there. Have you read the next one as well, Homodeus? 

Ken Robinson: No one a year is enough for me. 

Kelly Molson: Well, I've got a toddler, so reading doesn't come easy for me right now. But Homodus is next on my list to read because that's the next one on from Sapiens and it's supposed to be a really good read as well. Right, listeners as ever, if you want to win a copy of Ken and Bernard's book, retweet this episode announcement with the words, I want the Vax books and you will be put into a prize drawer to win them. And also, do go and watch Silent Witness, Paul's recommendation, because it is blooming brilliant. I love it. Thank you all so much for coming on to join me today. I've really appreciated it. It's been a fascinating kind of deep dive into the Visitor Attractions Conference. I genuinely love this conference. It is one absolutely not to be missed. 

Kelly Molson: I mean, there might be a speaker called Kelly at this one. This is so I'll be there. Come and see me too. But no, thank you. It's been wonderful. As I said, we will put all of the info in the show notes. We'll put all of the connections to Paul, Ken and Bernard too. So if you've got any follow up questions that you want to ask them, I'm sure they'd be really happy to help. But it's vapevents.com. Go and grab your ticket now. Thank you, guys. 

Ken Robinson: And I have to tell you, Kelly, we are going to spend our time at our next committee meeting thinking of impossible questions for you for when you're speaking at VAC.

Kelly Molson: Oh, God. Do it. I love impossible questions. Put me on the spot, Ken. I'll enjoy it. 

Kelly Molson: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned. 

Skip The Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website, rubbercheese.com/podcast.

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Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is  Kelly Molson, Founder of Rubber Cheese.

Download the Rubber Cheese 2022 Visitor Attraction Website Report - the first digital benchmark statistics for the attractions sector.

If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website rubbercheese.com/podcast.

If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this podcast

Competition ends August 31st 2023. The winner will be contacted via Twitter.

Show references:

https://crannog.co.uk/

https://crannog.co.uk/museum-development/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/mike-benson-22953833/

If you would like to support the Scottish Crannog Centre, please donate via Just Giving page.

https://justgiving.com/campaign/crannog

Mike Benson is the Managing Director of the Scottish Crannog Centre. Mike spent 28 years in the steel industry before working in museums. Mike left British Steel in 2004 to become Director of Ryedale Folk Museum in North Yorkshire. He then went on to be Director of Bede’s World and interim Director at The National Coal Mining Museum For England before starting work as Director in January 2018 at The Scottish Crannog Centre. 

Mike has a track record of leading organisations through transformational change.
Mike lives in The Scottish Borders with partner Kathy and their dog Shadow.

Transcriptions:

Kelly Molson: Welcome to Skip the Queue, a podcast for people working in or working with visitor attractions. I'm your host, Kelly Molson. 

In today's episode, I speak with Mike Benson, Managing Director of the Scottish Crannog Centre. Mike shares with us the truly unique working environment at the centre and the variety of opportunities they're able to offer young people who struggle with mainstream education.

We talk about the devastating fire back in 2021, but all the positivity around building back bigger and stronger than ever. 

If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue. 

Kelly Molson: All right, Mike, thank you for joining me on the podcast today. It's lovely to see you. It's been a long time since I saw you. I think last year I last saw you speak at an event. 

Kelly Molson: So I'm delighted that you've been able to give me a little bit of your time today to come on and chat. As ever, I've got some stupid icebreakers to start the podcast with. Right. I know that you've got a dog. What is the stupidest thing that your dog has ever done? 

Mike Benson: Well, she does it most days. If you don't give her treat or her, she will sit and just stare at the wall with her nose against the wall. If we go anywhere that she doesn't like, she just walks straight up to the wall and just sits and looks at the wall. 

Kelly Molson: Oh, like a protest. Like, I'm not happy here, protesting? 

Mike Benson: Yeah, absolutely. At first you feel really bad, but it's one of those protests that wears a bit thin, I'd imagine. But she keeps doing it a bit like a toddler does kind of thing. But she's getting an old dog now, so she's a bit more pronounced now. She will just sort of shift her head up a little bit, waddle over, bang her nose against the wall, and just stare at it until the situation is more to her liking, whatever it is. 

Kelly Molson: She's a diva. What a diva. It could be worse, though, Mike, couldn't it? Because it could be a dirty protest because some dogs do a bit.

Mike Benson: No, she's more intellectual than that. She's Belgian. She's Belgian. So she's quite philosophical and intellectual. 

Kelly Molson: I like a style. Okay. If you were to participate in karaoke, what would be the song that you would blast out on that microphone? 

Mike Benson: Take the ribbon from your head, take it loose and let it fall. Hold it soft against my skin like a shadow on a wall. 

Kelly Molson: Oh, Mike. I did not know we're going to get a rendition. That is amazing. 

Mike Benson: Pre karaoke. I used to go quite a lot to Beer Colours, where there'd be a guy on an accordion and you would ask him for a request, then you would sing while he played. I don't know if you ever went to them. And that was always my song. So the guy on the accordion, wherever it was, will be playing away now. Can you play? Help me make it through the night and then I would sing it to much acclaim. I can't sing a note, to be honest, but there you go. 

Kelly Molson: Oh, that was quite delightful, Mike. And if I was not expecting that. 

Mike Benson: You moved to tears, I can tell. 

Kelly Molson: This will be the second time that you've moved me to tears, Mike, but for very different reasons. We'll come to that later in the podcast. Right, I want to know what is your unpopular opinion? So something that you hold dear and believe to be true but not many people agree with you on. 

Mike Benson: Yeah, I've just asked Kathy, my partner, that one, because I couldn't really think of something she was saying. My background was in British Steel. I spent 27 years on the shop floor there, 28 years. And she thinks, one hand, I'm very disciplined and I like everybody to get to work on time and all that boring stuff. On the other hand, I expect everybody to be creative and I don't think that's unpopular or people don't agree, but that's what she's told me that I should say. So I'm going to say that.

Kelly Molson: I see you're quite contradictory in that sense. 

Mike Benson: Yeah, well, in everything. 

Kelly Molson: Let's get into our chats. There's loads that I want to cover today. You are the Managing Director of the Scottish Crannog Centre. Tell me a little bit about your background. How did you get to where you are now? 

Mike Benson: I think, as I said, I left school at 16, went straight into the steel works in Middlesbrough where I stayed, and it's where I always wanted to work. Very proud to work there. And my first day in work was maybe 100 lads in there and this great big guy got on the stage and said, "Welcome to Bridge Steel", kind of thing. You're following in the footsteps of giants that have built the world and all this stuff, and I still believe it. So it's it kind of did the trick. So, yeah, and I stayed there and stayed there and loved it. Towards the end of my time, I start to do an Open University degree when I was in my late 30s, just basically so because I could help the kids with the homework and stuff, I suppose. 

Kelly Molson: Wow. 

Mike Benson: I don't know anybody from my school that went to university or even to college. We all went to work. So, yeah, that was that. And then doing my stuff for the Open University start to go to get a different idea of what museums could be. Started to realise that nobody was really telling in our story very well, the steelwork story, where I lived, the locality and everything. So we set up a little group around our shift and with a couple of volunteers called Iron Owe AWE, which I thought was quite smart at the time. 

Kelly Molson: Very Good.

Mike Benson: Yeah. And went into schools and we got funding to make films. We did fantastic film with the first strikes, really, with 400 kids all marching down the streets, demanding to only work 8 hours a day and all the rest of it, which was really great. 

Mike Benson: Anyway, to cut long story short, we'd been asked to go down to London. We'd won this award, which was really funny because we had a few beers on the train going down and we get to London to go to the Strand where we'd won this Roots and Wings award. Beat loads of posh museums and the guy in the door would let us in because we didn't look like museum people and there was no more. He thought we're just trying to plug in for the wine or whatever. So I turned to a phone box. There was no well, mobile phones wrote, but I didn't have one early days and to ring the lady up and say, “Your man on the door won't let us in.” We're not the right type.

Kelly Molson: Amazing. So you never really fitted the traditional museum mold. 

Mike Benson: And it's still exactly the same fully enough. And on the back of that, on the way home, we got back early doors, and I was six till one shift. And when I got in, there was a message on the phone from the National Park. North York Moose National Park. Just asking me if I was interested in applying the director of Ridell Fort Museum, which is a rural museum in the North York moors. So I went for it, don't know why, and got the job. I don't know how. Then I had the big decision whether to leave all my friends that we'd been to each other's 18th, 21st, weddings, all the rest of it. That was a huge decision. I always remember I only ever had one good bus at British Steel. 

Mike Benson: All the buses were crap, but I went in to see him, guy I really trusted, and he just said, "You've got to go, there's thousands of lads here that would chuck the right arm off to do a job like that." And I went over to the museum and there you go. That's how I kind of ended up in this sector, really. 

Kelly Molson: That's amazing. And it literally all came from you going back to do an Open University course to help your kids. It wasn't necessarily about you and a new career and changing your part. 

Mike Benson: No last thing in my head. 

Kelly Molson: I think that's really motivating to hear because I think a lot of people think that by the time you're 30, you should have it all together. 

Mike Benson: I'm 60 and I can go together.

Kelly Molson: 45, no clue. But do you know what I mean? I think that there's a lot of people out there that kind of by that point they think, “Well, you should have your career sorted by then. You should know what your trajectory is and what you're doing”. And it just goes to show that there's an opportunity to change your life whenever you decide to. 

Mike Benson: Yeah, you need look, I think you need a lot of look. I've been lucky in that sense, I think, as I say, and my plant is still going, so I would be retired now, which is a bit of a reflection on a bad decision made now, looking back. There you go. And it was a completely bloody h***, completely different world. I'd never met a vegetarian before, ever. 

Kelly Molson: So culturally it took you into a place that was so far from what you know.

Mike Benson: Yeah, I was lucky enough to I've been doing the job about a year or so and I was lucky enough to win a Claw Fellowship, which is like a high level training thing, they send you around the world and all sorts. It's brilliant. I went and stayed with a fantastic guy, a First Nation Canadian chief on the Pacific Coast. Anyway, but I'd gone to this place and again I got to this really posh spot down in Kent near Seven Oaks and said, “I'm in the right place”. And the lady said, "I don't think so". I'd driven all the way down Milan Bretta with sidecar, so that was interesting. And we'd gone out for a meal somewhere, myself and the other Claw fellows, and we had a bit of a chord thing going on. 

Mike Benson: I think when I was at British Steel, where if you were a little bit skinned, if you'd gone out for a drink or for meal or whatever you would say you'd pay with your credit card and the ladder would think, “Oh, bloody Ollie skinned”. So we'd all chip in. Anyway, I goes for this meal and my fellow Claw fellows at the end of night all put the credit cards on the table and I thought, bloody h***, everybody skinned. So I ended up paying for offering to pay the bill, which I did, which then left me skinned and then I cut and done. That was just the way things were because again, you would never use your credit card. It was just like something that you very rarely would use, but in the real world, everybody uses their credit cards all the time. 

Kelly Molson: What a brilliant story. 

Mike Benson: Yeah. And another one is when I first went into the an interior deal, there was a guy there and I'd asked him to do something and he said, "No, it's not my job". And at British Steel you were kind of saying, "I'm going to give you 5 minutes to think about it, I'm going to send you home". So I give him his 5 minutes and I sent him home. And then I had a gaggle of trustees coming in about an hour later saying, "What you doing?” “Listen, I give him his 5 minutes and I sent him home". And they were like, "what?"

Kelly Molson: Doesn't work like that here? 

Mike Benson: What planet did you come from? 

Kelly Molson: Wow. So you changed your life. And then you went through quite a lot of crisis learning experiences.

Mike Benson: Yeah, to learn a whole new lexicon. And after so long, I thought it just be yourself. 

Kelly Molson: Absolutely. I think you're absolutely right, because you bring something quite magic to everywhere that you go, and I've seen that from the way that you've spoken and the way that other people have spoken about you. Right. Let's talk about the  Crannog. Let's talk about the  Crannog Centre. So you're the Managing Director of the Scottish Crannog. So you're the Managing Director of the Scottish Crannog Centre. What's a Crannog for our audience that are listening? What is a Crannog? 

Mike Benson: Well, I've googled it. 

Kelly Molson: So did I, Mike. 

Mike Benson: I Googled it because it is many things to many different people. I Googled it and it's an artificial island that people might have lived on. It might have been a wooden structure. So basically, particularly in Scotland and in Ireland, you'll see as you're going around the lochs, you'll see little clumps of stone in the middle of the loch or to one side with a tree in or something. And at some point that would have been an artificial island that somebody made into a dwelling. So I think if you Google it yeah, for Rose and interestingly, after the fire, it's a symbol of home, it's a symbol of community, it's a symbol of what can be achieved. The engineering was unbelievable. The joinery skills were unbelievable. The candunas, you think two and a half thousand years ago. 

Mike Benson: It must have been bloody freezing and everybody was sat in a cave and all this stuff. And actually there they were building these beautiful homes, places, whatever, and there could be places of prestige and what have you. But there were a home and inside there they will have been playing a seven stringed musical instrument. We've got evidence of that in the collection. They will have been trading with this is before Brexit, they were trading with Europe, which is a continent that's very near to was just over the water, that's really easy to trade with, used to be. So all that stuff, and it's become a place where everybody can contribute, everybody can learn a skill and kind of inspired by that notion, whether it's romantic or not, that everybody has a part to play. And that's how you get a flourishing community. 

Kelly Molson: Just for our listeners who may not have visited or you may not know what the Crannog. Just for our listeners who may not have visited or you may not know what the Crannog Centre is for. What is the Crannog Centre's purpose? Has it been created to kind of showcase? 

Mike Benson: Yes, it's literally on the straight level if you like. To tell the stories of the crown of dwellers, the day to day lives of what the best we can. We don't know exactly. That's the beauty of it. Half of what we say is based on certainty, the other half is based on opinion, because we can only go on the evidence that we have a number of archaeologists at work, and you get three archaeologists, you get four theories and it's like that every day and constant learning that goes on. So on that level, it's to tell a story of those kind of dwellers from two and a half thousand years ago. But also, I think, to be relevant for today, to look at sustainability, to look at the learning opportunities that people have. 

Mike Benson: We have a thing on the wall at work where we put on the questions that the public have asked that week. One of them was from a little girl asking how far the Christmas would get in because there isn't a chimney. 

Kelly Molson: Good question. 

Mike Benson: Yeah, the best one was but bearing in mind we employ 23 people, are you all related? 

Kelly Molson: Wow. Is that because it all feels like a family or is it all yeah, you all bitter like a family, maybe.

Mike Benson: Yeah. But we kind of rub along and get there and we all cover each other's backsides and we work really hard or try to, but yeah. 

Kelly Molson: That's a nice question. 

Mike Benson: I'm hoping it was done in the right way.  

Kelly Molson: I love that. So I can remember very vividly. It was the 16 June and I was on a webinar which was for ASVA members, and you came onto the webinar and shared the news of what had just happened. And I genuinely was so moved that I had to switch my camera off and have a little cry. It was a really difficult thing to watch you talk about. I can only imagine what you were feeling at that point. But would you be able to just take us back and explain what happened on the I think it was the morning of the 16th, wasn't it? The early hours of the 16th or the evening? 

Mike Benson: Yeah, it was just a couple of days before then. I'm still a bit raw and I was in two months whether to do that call, really, but I didn't realise I thought, yeah, I'll just go and tell them about a fire. But I didn't really yes, it's still quite raw when I think about it. 

Kelly Molson: Can imagine. 

Mike Benson: So at 11:00 at night when you look at the CCTV, there's a little tiny glow inside the Crannog and then by 6 minutes past it's gone. And Rich, one of the assistant directors there, drank me up hours in bed, asleep, rang up and said, "Mike, the Crannog’s on fire". And I said, "Yeah, that's fine, I'll sort out in the morning", went back to sleep and he rang me back again. " "Mike, Mike, it's really on fire." And I could hear all the fire engines and everything going behind him. So of course I raced down. By the time I got there, it was gone. I think there was five fire engines, lots of police and all the rest of it. And yeah, it was quite difficult. The chair of trustees was there, he was bereft, he got there before me, obviously, lots of tears. 

Mike Benson: There was a couple of members of staff who'd locked themselves in the car, were crying. So basically we made a few calls, got everybody on site round about half one in the morning, I think at night, so it's still black and the lights are still flashing. I just said to everybody, "You know what, nobody's been hurt. Thank our lucky stars nobody's been hurt. We're going to do exactly what the crown of dwellers would have done. We're going to pack up our things, which froze is the collection, the precious things that they've left for us, and we're going to move". And I exaggerate this a little bit, but the reality was, on the following morning at 09:00, we sat there and we had no money, we had no plan, we didn't quite know what was going to happen. 

Mike Benson: By about half ten that morning, were starting to have a plan and we'd fortunately had already, through a community asset transfer, which is where a community group can make an application to local authority or to the government to buy something at a reduced price. We'd already bought the new site on the other side of the loch through community asset transfer. 

Kelly Molson: Amazing. 

Mike Benson: And by the second day, I think over 50,000 had come into the just given page. 

Kelly Molson: It was an incredible outpouring of community spirit, wasn't it? The support that you got was I mean, it was local, national.

Mike Benson: Yeah. Yeah. People ringing in to offer volunteer time, money coming in. We had the politicians involved. We were charged by Scottish government, not straight away. After a couple of bit of time, maybe a week or so, were asked to try and come up with a plan that was realistic, that wouldn't cost too much, that would get the organisation away, it wouldn't be the full monty, but it would get us up and running. We presented that plan to Scottish government and they've agreed to support us, as have other trust foundations and everybody else. So we've started work on the new site, March. So in less than two years, we've got through planning, which anybody knows we're planning isn't easy, and even though they were sympathetic, they had their protocols to go through. 

Mike Benson: We raised the money, we hit January this year and were a little bit short because of everything that's gone up with inflation filled that funding gap and we're hoping to open in November. 

Kelly Molson: That is magic. I think what we have to remember as well is this was happening still during while the Pandemic was going on. So this was 2021 that this happened. So were still in a position of places not being fully open, still having all of that own kind of personal impact that were struggling with, as well as having something like this happen. I can see it in your eyes now. I can hear it when you're talking. The emotion about that day is still kind of with you. 

Kelly Molson: You hold it still there, but the way that you were able to, the very next day have a plan in place is testimony to, I think, yourself and the people that you have surrounding you and how much they love that centre that you've been able to kind of come back so quickly and make this happen. 

Mike Benson: Yeah, I mean, we opened four days after the fire, obviously with no crown of a bit like the Van Gogh Museum without any Van Goghs, and we didn't think we'd get many visitors, and they just powered in. 

Kelly Molson: Amazing. That's the power of telling great stories, Mike. People still want to come. 

Mike Benson: Yeah, that's all it is. Without getting my little hobby horse. Maybe it goes back to the earlier question about your opinion. I think museums still have a long way to go, really, in how they work. And it's just really simple, really. Just you're telling a good story that people want to listen to and hear, and we kind of do that best we can. 

Kelly Molson: Yeah, no, you really do. 

Mike Benson: We're a little bit wonky on the edges, but that's allowed. 

Kelly Molson: That's what people love. That's what people love. I think that there's such a level of authenticity about how you speak and the way that you do things. And that's, for me, what I find really engaging.  

Kelly Molson: I saw you speak last year at the Scottish Tourism Alliance conference. I think it was last November. No, it really was slick, but I really enjoyed it. So Mike did a really clever thing, so he was billed as the speaker, but he actually got other people to speak for him, which I thought was genius. I'm going to use that at some point whenever I'm asked to speak. But it was great. You spoke about the Crannog Centre, but you talked about how you've harnessed potential and created this really great working environment. And you've done that by building a really diverse workforce and volunteers and people that come along and just help and support you. And I think it is such an amazing story. 

Kelly Molson: You have a lot of young people that come and work and volunteer at centre while they were speaking for you and sharing their experience of working there. I was just blown away by all of the amazing opportunities that you can offer them. Like, bear in mind, this is a relatively small centre that we're talking about. We're not talking about the VNA, we're not talking about the London Transport Museum here. The variety of what those youngsters can do there and what they can learn and what they can be part of is incredible. And I think you help a lot of youngsters that are struggling with mainstream education by offering them a different way of learning, a different way of being involved with things. And talk to us about how you've managed to create this incredible working environment. 

Mike Benson: Yeah. Again, I think I can't take any credit for it, really. It's kind of what I grew up with as well. When you went into somewhere, there was quite a diverse workforce that worked in British Steel or wherever. Part of the learning and part of your reflections are certainly within the task of what a museum is. If you want to engage with diverse audiences, you need to have a diverse workforce. People need to be able to come into that museum and see people like themselves, not just there, but actually having agency, being able to make decisions, being leaders, being able to flourish, being able to be themselves. We talk about freedom of self, that ability to really be yourself at work. Another word kind of made up is that feltness. 

Mike Benson: We call it feltness, where people can just come in and feel that there's something there that they can just feel there's love or hard work or graft or academic rigor or all of those things thrown into the pot. And that diversity is that you can feel it. And again, time and time again, when people come and we ask them what the feedback is, they can just feel something there that they can't quite put the finger on. So we called it feltness. 

Kelly Molson: It was a lovely way of defining it, but that's a really hard thing to create. Like, how do you create that? I guess it's a mixture of the people and the characters that you have working there and the things that they can do and the things that they are allowed to do, I guess the autonomy that you give them. 

Mike Benson: Yeah. And being aspirational and wanting to be the best that we can be. So I think that notion of creativity aligned to discipline, that unleashing of folks, we're all hemmed in nowadays by all kinds of barriers, and we're kind of shuffled along, I don't know, like, through amaze almost, and sometimes almost uncontrollably, we end up somewhere. I just think to be able to just break all that down and just start again is no bad thing. And so that's what we've tried to do with the Crannog Centre there and take that inspiration, as I said, from that notion of a community that could flourish. Everybody must be able to contribute. 

Kelly Molson: How have you done that? Did you set out in your mind when you went to the Crannog Centre? Did you set out and go, "This is what I want. I want to be able to offer all of these different experiences to young people who are struggling with mainstream education?" Or is this something that's just kind of happened naturally, that you've attracted people? How have you set out to kind of do it? 

Mike Benson: Yeah, that we set out to do it that way. So my interviewer said we would set up an apprenticeship program where we'd set up blah, blah, create a framework for success and depends what you call success, whether it's footfall, whether it's donations, people making donations, whether it's how much you sell in the shop, whatever that your success measures are. So each of the museum that have been that, we've done something similar with the apprenticeship program, with the diversity, and I think here we've managed to take all the learning of what we've done so far, if you like, and put it all into practice and it doesn't always work. And sometimes you think to yourselves, go up and much easy just to get a load of. We interviewed some folks that were getting a craft fellow funded through Hess. 

Mike Benson: That's somebody who's going to learn traditional skills. And the amount of young people that came to that with two degrees and a masters and a half a PhD and stuff, I just think it must be really hard to get your break into this game, into the museum world, if we can create different routes and that. I was asked by trustees, "What would make you happy in ten years time?" And I said, "For one of the apprentices to be the director."

Kelly Molson: That's lovely. 

Mike Benson: And I think having that approach, I think and it happens in business all the time, I think the museum is still stuck around hierarchy and prestige and a certain type of knowledge and a certain type of person. But, yeah, I think that's kind of where were going with that. 

Kelly Molson: That's really lovely. But you are a small team, right, Mike? There's not thousands of people at this museum that help you do this. So what you've been able to achieve with the relatively small team is incredibly impressive. Who heads up the program? Is that you? Who defines what the kind of apprenticeship program looks like and the structure? 

Mike Benson: Yeah, I kind of keep my paws out with that, really. I'm really good at talking, a good job. I don't actually do anything. 

Kelly Molson: You’re a leader, Mike. 

Mike Benson: No, honestly, I'm not good at anything. I am not good at anything. Kathy, my partner, will say I can't put a screw in the wall or anything and I'm literally no good at anything. But, yeah, I think we just create an environment and again, we get bogged down with business planning and all that all the time. I did a talk to some community groups the other day and I just used the image of a sunflower, because quite often you'll consultants who come and say, you need that business plan, it needs to be really hard. And yet a sunflower doesn't really have much of a business plan. It just follows the sun and soaks it all up and grows where it's best. And I think just sometimes you can be a bit too.

Mike Benson:  All I was saying to him is than these folks in town to get stuffed if they think it's nonsense. So I think, yeah, I'm what Lenos? I always do. I think it's just as I say, create an environment. And it's really hard. It's much harder to create that environment than it will be to have a straight structure. Straight, linear. You report to him, you report to him, nothing happens until he's signed that off. So it's chaos. It's bloody chaos. 

Kelly Molson: But is that partly because you're not asking people to come in and fit your mold, you're almost asking them to come in and then you're flexing your mold to how they need to grow and adapt. 

Mike Benson: So you've got wobbling all the time. Yes, it really is. And it's not for everybody. It's really hard. So it's not for everyone, particularly those trained within the museum profession, that likes straight lines. It's really hard. Or anybody that likes to work in duchess museums in general, it's not for everyone, some folks to come and work with us, and it doesn't work for everyone because they want to see that comfort, really. It's that comfort of that straight line and somebody's going to tell me what to do. I have no clue what's happening at work half the time. Not when they say, we decided to do this. All right, this guy's turned up, he's going to do this. Smashing. 

Kelly Molson: But that takes a lot to be that flexible, though, doesn't it? Like you say, sometimes as humans, we kind of like a plan. We like to see the trajectory, we like to see what the next step is, and not being able to see that is uncomfortable for a lot of us. So to have an organisation that's so fluid, that's not for everybody at all, you have to be quite I think you've got to be quite a special person to be able to lead an organisation that is structured like that. 

Mike Benson: Hence the baggy eyes. 

Kelly Molson: Yes. What does the future look like for the Crannog Centre? So you've had a grant from Scottish government and it's being rebuilt on the new site, which is directly across the loch from where? 

Mike Benson: Twelve times bigger. We're building it as a nine edge village as well. So we're doing it the wrong way around, kind of. Instead of building the Crannog, first, we'll build a nine edge village. So what's next is we'll try and get that done. This was always project one. As I said, we needed to have something that would get us up and running. And then Project Two will be to build a proper museum. So at one end of Scotland's most powerful river lies the VNA in Dundee, and at the other end of Scotland's most powerful river, Batte, will I our new museum as well. As we go into Project Two, hopefully the deeper sense of belonging in more heft he says, “Don't quote me on that.”

Mike Benson: And it will be a different type because I think the VNA will probably be one of the last of the big concrete, super duper designed museums. Not critical at all. I think as the world's moved on to a more stable models, there'd be maybe a different approach to how public buildings like that are built in the future. So that's what's coming next, if you like. Whether I'm still there to do that or not, who knows? 

Kelly Molson: Well, one of your apprentices will be director by then, probably, if you get your way. What does that look like in terms of time frames, though? So what are we looking at in terms of the new centre being open across on the other side of the loch? 

Mike Benson: So we hopefully going to do a soft opening in November. So it's all about, as I've said, home and feeling safe and being yourself. So that opening will be potentially we'll have the Mary Hills Refugee Choir there, we'll have bands there and everything else. And we may be looking at how we can have on the old site some instruments there and some instruments. And now we're sad. And they talk to each other across the loch. 

Kelly Molson: That's lovely. Yeah. To share the stories of the older and the new. 

Mike Benson: And then the log boat will probably come along with a torch and all that sort of stuff. Anyway, everybody's talking of different things. We'll pull it all together. So, soft opening in November and then we'll go larger. 

Kelly Molson: And you talked a little bit earlier about sustainability, is that right? I think I read this is that the centre is aiming for its new incarnation to become Scotland's most sustainable museum. Not just about carbon count, but about the kind of the craft and the skills and the sustainability of materials. Is that about how it's being built and constructed, as well as what you do there? 

Mike Benson: Yes. So we've got some brilliant folks on site now. So we've got Julie, Laura, Jordy, who are women carpenters who are working away Chaz again, carpenter. Jim, our Stormwall builder, and then Brian, our Thatcher, will be joining us once he's finished the job up north. And while they're there, they're sharing the plan. Is that all those skills? Oh, I forgot him. Ash. He's building our he's built the first one up. It's a hazel, six meter high hazel roundhouse. It's gorgeous. He's nearly finished that working with Nelly. Anyway, give him all the name check. So the idea being that those skills are shared across the Crannog team. So in future years. The idea is that the Iron Age village that we're building now, the buildings were only ever intended to last seven years, ish seven to ten years. 

Mike Benson: Then they'll go back into the earth and the caym across the road is a hill called Drummond Hill. And that's where we'll be starting to copies to grow the materials that we need to build these. So we employ Yein, the copieser and we'll have Jenny, the forest gardener. So all the materials and the timbers, the stone, the reed for the thatch the heather is all within walking distance of a crown of dweller.

Kelly Molson: This seven year cycle is that what would have happened back then?

Mike Benson: So yeah you entered the coppers in cycle you see I'm no expert on this, it sounds like I know what I'm talking about, I don't. However Ian the copies guy does and Jenny the forest gardener does. So within the forestry land services are taking out the large disease come in the hill opposite hopefully we'll take over some of that land where we will copy some and start to plant the materials that we need for the future. Hazel seven years then the York and everything else will take a bit longer but in years to come that'll be totally sustainable and you literally will cross the road and take a tree down and build a building out of it. 

Kelly Molson: That is magic, isn't it? That is really.

Mike Benson: And that's what's happening now. So the timbers that are coming on site are within walking distance and the buildings that are going up is all the stone is just locally sourced, everything's just from over the road. And that requires a different skill set. Rather than just getting a timber from Norway or something from juicens, learning how to use local, local materials and making these buildings stay up and stand up and all that sort of stuff is a task in itself.

Kelly Molson: For me, it's that idea of those crafts never dying as well. We don't want that guy to be the last copieser. No those skills have to be transferred in a way that they are shared with the younger generation. I'm thinking about my two year old one day how lovely would it be to come and bring her and show her the way that people used to build houses back in the day and we don't forget those things, that's what's important.

Mike Benson: And the fact that you can make a living out of it. So when people come to see us they are supporting, keeping all that alive and that's part of thinking around that will take the buildings that we're building now down in seven or eight years time because that's how you'll learn to build them again. 

Kelly Molson: Yeah, I guess of course because then the new people can learn, they've learned their skills, can learn to go through all of that process.

Mike Benson: And the apprentices that are there now learning will be the ones that are teaching. 

Kelly Molson: Yeah that's really cool. 

Mike Benson: It's an old model but it's just how it is.

Kelly Molson:  And in a way you forget the simplicity of that, don't you? You just forget. 

Mike Benson: Yeah and then within that sustainability as well if we become the sort of organisation that people want to partner with and work alongside and also a place that people want to visit and support so you've got the skills, materials, those four elements and then we think that will create a sustainable model. 

Kelly Molson: What more help do you need, Mike? So you've had a grant from Scottish government, you've had a huge outpouring of support from the general public when we had the fire. 

Kelly Molson: You mentioned a little while ago about a funding gap. Obviously, cost of living crisis has probably affected that, the rising cost of materials, et cetera. What can we do to help you? Or is there still a live kind of go funding part that we can all go? 

Mike Benson: You can still go onto our website and donate and I understand how hard it is for everybody just now as well, by the way. So we are still writing little applications here, there and everywhere just to try and cover those final bits. And it's really hard because what we've tried to do, what we could have done is just close the current site, build the, you know, get the main contractors gone in and put the drains in and the car parks and all that stuff in then we could. But we tried to keep everybody employed and keep the apprenticeship going and everything else and that's been quite a challenge. 

Mike Benson: Obviously we haven't got a Crannog even though we're still getting we've improved our visitor figures to last year, just but it's really hard without that central point and the old site is looking tired, which is where we always intended to move. So I think if anybody did want to help us in that way, that would be great. And also just share the word, really, and just tell folks to come and visit us if they can. That's the best way to help. Just paying your seven pound to come in and see us and just be part of it and keep a little bit of that love in your heart when you leave. 

Kelly Molson: Oh, Mike, you're going to make me cry. This will be the first time that you've got me. We are going to share in the show notes to this episode. We're going to share all the ways that you can still support the Scottish Crannog Centre. So we'll put a link to the website, we'll put a link to the donation portals and yeah, I think you're absolutely right. I think it's all about just encouraging people to go along. Seven pounds is not a huge entrance fee to go and experience some of these things that you will never have seen anywhere else. You might learn about a craft that you might never see anywhere else. That's not a huge amount to ask for people. So please dig deep if you can and help them create something that is going to be truly transformational for generations to come. 

Kelly Molson: Not just for people that visit it, but for the people that go there and do these apprenticeship schemes and learn the trades and develop themselves into something that their wildest dreams couldn't have imagined. They could have achieved. Mike, thank you for sharing today. I'm so grateful of everyone that comes on to talk to me on the podcast, but your story really did touch me. I was eight months pregnant at that time, Mike. I'm not going to lie, I probably would have dropped, probably would have cried if the dog had come in here and looked at me funny. But you did break me that day and it's really lovely to hear all the positive things that have happened since then and all of the good things that are happening. Right, what about a book? 

Kelly Molson: We always ask our guests to come on and share a book that they love with our audience. Can be anything you like. 

Mike Benson: Well, because I am a museum director and an academic, I'm going to go for the Thursday Murder Club series. 

Kelly Molson: I knew this was not going to be a business book, Mike. 

Mike Benson: No, I've not planned them all. See, a book with leadership on it. I don't know if you've read any of them, but Elizabeth, Joyce, Ron and Abraham are just so stupid and funny and English and gentle. It's just lovely. So I've been plowing my way through all those I mean, the plots are way for thin the whole thing's nonsense, but it's just really good stuff to kind of remind you what human beings are. 

Kelly Molson: Yeah, a lovely good escapism as well, aren't they, those books. They are great. Well, as ever, listeners, if you want to win a copy of Mike's book, you know what to do. Go over to our Twitter account and hit the retweet button with the message, I want Mike's book. And we'll put you into the prize drawer to win a book. And that is for the last time this season, because this is the last podcast of this season, which is crazy. We've had so many guests on, so many amazing stories, so many initiatives that have been shared with us and so many learnings that I've personally taken away. Thank you all for listening. 

Kelly Molson: We will be back again in September after we've had a little summer break, because, let's face it, you are going to be way too busy for podcasts over the summer, visiting, having all of your guests visit. So, Mike, thank you again. It has been an absolute pleasure. I'm really glad that you came on the podcast and you didn't send somebody else to come and do the podcast.

Mike Benson: I was in two minds.

Kelly Molson: Brilliant. Thank you for coming on. Like we said, we're going to put all of the details on how you can still help the Crannog Centre into the show notes today. Mike, it's been a pleasure. Thank you. 

Mike Benson: You'll take care now.

Kelly Molson: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned. 

Skip The Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website, rubbercheese.com/podcast.

Download The Visitor Attractions Website Survey Report - https://www.merac.co.uk/download-the-visitor-attractions-survey

We have launched our brand-new playbook: ‘The Retail Ready Guide to Going Beyond the Gift Shop’ — your go-to resource for building a successful e-commerce strategy that connects with your audience and drives sustainable growth.

Download your FREE copy here

Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is  Kelly Molson, Founder of Rubber Cheese.

Download the Rubber Cheese 2022 Visitor Attraction Website Report - the first digital benchmark statistics for the attractions sector.

If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website rubbercheese.com/podcast.

If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this podcast

Competition ends July 31st 2023. The winner will be contacted via Twitter.

Show references:

2023 Visitor Attraction Website Report Survey - https://www.rubbercheese.com/visitor-attraction-website-report-2023

Andy Povey, Managing Director UK & Ireland for Convious

Skip the Queue episode: https://www.skipthequeue.fm/episodes/andy-povey

Convious: https://www.convious.com/

Andy Povey Twitter: https://twitter.com/MrTicketeer

Andy Povey LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andypovey/

Andy Povey joined Convious in November 2021 as managing director for UK and Ireland. 

Andy has worked in the attractions industry since the early nineties when he began as a ride operator at Chessington World of Adventures. He stayed with the Tussaud’s company and later Merlin Entertainments for another 18 years, working in a variety of operational jobs at Rock Circus, Madame Tussauds, and central support, where he was responsible for the group’s ticketing systems. After Merlin, he worked for Gateway Ticketing Systems for ten years, opening and then overseeing their UK operation, before transferring his experience to the Convious team. Outside work, Andy enjoys visiting attractions of all shapes and sizes with his family.

Simon Addison, Heritage Business Manager at the Roman Baths

Skip the Queue episode: https://www.skipthequeue.fm/episodes/simon-addison

Roman Baths: https://www.romanbaths.co.uk/

Simon Addison Twitter: https://twitter.com/addisonsimon

Simon Addison LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/simonaddison/

Simon Addison is the Business Manager, Roman Baths and Pump Room, Bath, and heads the finance and business planning functions at the Roman Baths. He is responsible for business analysis, pricing strategy and leads the benchmarking work.

Simon started his career in the financial services industry, where he qualified as a chartered management accountant with the Bank of New York. He moved to the National Trust in 2012, where he held roles in the finance team. Latterly he was responsible for the Trust’s finances in Somerset, Dorset and Wiltshire. Simon joined the senior leadership team at the Roman Baths in 2017.

Simon joined the Board of the Association of Leading Visitor Attractions in May 2022.

Dominic Jones, CEO of The Mary Rose Museum, and Director of Portsmouth Historic Dockyard

Skip the Queue episode: https://www.skipthequeue.fm/episodes/dominic-jones

The Mary Rose: https://maryrose.org/

Portsmouth Historic Dockyard: https://www.historicdockyard.co.uk/

Dominic Jones Twitter: https://twitter.com/DominicJonesUK

Dominic Jones LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dominicejones/

Dominic Jones was recruited to the Mary Rose in 2019 ago as Chief Operating Officer, and became CEO in 2021.  He brings an excellent background in commercial visitor attractions (Disney, Merlin) and creative visitor experience development.

During his time at the Mary Rose, he has already driven an excellent commercial and operational performance and worked closely with previous Chief Executive to create the new Portsmouth Historic Dockyard joint venture with the National Museum of the Royal Navy, which launched successfully in August 2020. 

Transcriptions:

Kelly Molson: Welcome to Skip The Queue, a podcast for people working in or working with visitor attractions. I'm your host, Kelly Molson. 

Today's episode is a little bit different. I speak to Dominic Jones, CEO of the Mary Rose Museum and Director of Portsmouth Historic Dockyard. Simon Addison, Heritage Business Manager at the Roman Baths and Andy Povey, Managing Director, UK and Ireland of Convious. Dom, Simon and Andy share with you the merits of taking part in the 2023 Visitor Attraction Website Survey. 

We talk about how the report has shaped their digital strategies and what that's delivered to their attractions in terms of increased revenue and improved customer experience. 

If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on all the usual channels by searching Skip The Queue. 

Kelly Molson: So I've got Dominic Jones, Simon Addison and Andy Povey here. All past guests, all good friends. We don't need to do icebreakers here because we all know each other pretty well now. But we are going to do a little mini round of unpopular opinions again, because, let's face it, that's why people listen to this podcast. Dominic, I'm going to start with you. 

Dominic Jones: Why would you start with me? That's so unfair. It's obvious that Simon is your favourite. We can know this is how it works with Bath. He gets all of the good stuff and you come to Dominic first. I used my best unpopular opinion last time when I talked about not mentioning the weather. And I always think my unpopular opinion should be work related. So this one is an interesting one and I wonder whether you will disagree with me, let alone Simon and Andy. But I think when doing discounting, online or in person in our industry. You shouldn’t use percentages, and you should use physical pounds, because I think people who use percentages can really confuse people. And also, I just think it's bad form. 

Kelly Molson: I should throw this one over to Andy, really, because he's pricing expert man, isn't he?

Andy Povey: I go that far, Kelly. I actually agree with Dominic, but from a geeky technical perspective.

Dominic Jones: Love Andy, always loved Andy. You know what, he's one of those guests that you just love. 

Simon Addison: Dom, is this just an unpopular opinion because you just can't do percentages, you just want to know how many pounds to take off. Is that what it is? 

Kelly Molson: Percentages are hard. We're not all like numbers people like you, Simon. 

Dominic Jones: We're not all born with a calculator. The other thing is that actually, the great British public, our international public, they don't want to be working out. They want to enjoy the day outside. They want to enjoy the Roman Baths, they don't want to be sitting there working out, “What these percentages off mean?”

Simon Addison: Dom, you not listen to my podcast on pricing strategy.  We don't discount. 

Andy Povey: But that was going to be my point. 

Simon Addison: Yeah, we should be confident enough to the quality of our own products, Dom. That will be my unpopular opinion. We shouldn't discount as an industry, but that's not what I've prepared. 

Andy Povey: Discounting just seems like a really easy, quick thing for marketeer to do when they're desperate. And I think we should be a little bit more confident about what we're doing and actually use better tools and better ways of communicating the value of what it is that the attraction is doing. So slightly more unpopular, I suppose, Dom, would be let's not do discounts at all. Doesn’t matter weather it’s 4 pounds or percentages or whatever, then just don’t do it.

Kelly Molson: So, I’m just gonna come at this from a car boot perspective, which I have to skip randomly. But I love a little bargain. I went to a car boot sale. I'm renovating a cottage in North Norfolk at the moment and I'm trying to furnish it with as much second hand things as possible. So car boot sales are my friend right now, and if I had gone up to the stall and been like, "What's your best price on this?". And they said, "You can have 10% off", I'd have been like, "But what does that mean? It's 05:00 in the morning and my brain can’t work this out". But two pounds is yes. 

Dominic Jones: And it works. And also, there's an element of, you do need to put discounting in, because you've got to look at reaching different audiences. You’ve got people like Kelly who want to bargain. So you need to put out a decoy pricing in. So they think, "Oh, I'm not paying that for tickets, but I got 2 pounds off, aren't I lucky? I like that.” The problem with percentages is it's people trying to be too clever and it's marketeers trying to be a little bit too clever. And I've never liked it. It’s not as bad as the weather. I hate the weather being used as an excuse, but my second one is using percentages in discounting.

Kelly Molson: Okay. I'm glad that you changed that quickly to discounting and not marketing because there's a lot of percentages in my report, which we'll discuss later. Right, Simon, moving on to you. 

Simon Addison: Yeah, okay. It's nothing to do with work. Camping is not a holiday. There's no way that camping is a holiday. But I love the outdoors. We're going on holiday to Pembrokeshire in a couple of months, we'll be outside most of every day. We will walk in the cross paths in whatever the weather. But at the end of the day, we got a little cottage that we are renting to come back to for a shower that haven’t got to queue for. We're not sharing a toilet block like camping, washing up, cooking, they're disproportionately hard work, and that's assuming it's sunny. If it rains, it's just miserable. 

Simon Addison: We can go out and get wet and we don't have to worry about whether we're ever going to get dry for the rest of the week in a tent. The kids will wake up. I haven't finished yet. Kelly. In a tent, they'll wake up at five in the morning when it gets light, and that means just the suffering of the holidays extended over an even longer day. And worst of all, the red wine is too cold and the white wine is too warm. Just miserable. 

Dominic Jones: Do you not have a fridge when you do camping? 

Simon Addison:  Dom, I don't camp. You might have got that from there. 

Dominic Jones: I go camping. I have a fridge. I have a blow up tent. I have all the cons. 

Kelly Molson: Do you take your bed like the glastonbury dude? 

Dominic Jones: Well, I try and turn up late to someone else that can turn it all up, but it's very nice. 

Kelly Molson: Simon, I'm with you on this. I love the outdoors. I'm a big nature girl, but camping is a no no for me. It is miserable. Even glamping. I went glamping on a friend's hen doo once and even that was just a step too far for me. Everything was grubby. It rained, everything was then damp. Everything was damp. Like, everything was damp. It was horrible. Cottage all the way. Hello. I've got one in North Norfolk coming up, available for rent in September. If you're interested in a holiday in beautiful North Norfolk.

Dominic Jones: You should go to car boot sales. I believe they've got some great deals at the moment. 

Kelly Molson: Yeah. They do have some great bargains, Dominic.

Simon Addison:  Will you offer me a percentage discount on your cottage in North Norfolk? 

Kelly Molson: Right, I like that one. I don't think that's going to be that unpopular, if I'm honest. Andy, over to you, final one. 

Andy Povey: When you first broached the idea of coming back to the podcast, I was really excited and the fact that I was going to join probably my two favourite podcast guests was really exciting. So my unpopular opinion is hopefully it's going to be borne out or proven by this episode of Skip The Queue, in that Dominic Jones isn't going to be number one on the Skip the Queue chart by the end of next week. 

Dominic Jones: That’s so harsh. Now, what have I ever done to hurt you, Andy? 

Andy Povey: You've not hurt me, Dom, you're not. It's just a little friendly competition. 

Simon Addison: Is Dom number one? He's never mentioned it. I've literally never heard him talk about. 

Andy Povey: I don't know where you'd get that from. 

Dominic Jones: I'm a very shy guy. Am I number one? You're joking me. Really? 

Kelly Molson: Yes, you do not know?

Dominic Jones: We should tell people about this. This needs to get out there before it changes. 

Kelly Molson: So I said, if Dominic is still number one at Christmas, I'm going to send him a gift. I'm going to send him something commemorative for this at Christmas. So he was number one last Christmas. You were the official Skip the Queue Christmas number one. 

Dominic Jones: Amazing, I did not know that. Wow.

Kelly Molson: Yeah, I know. It is amazing. I'm sure you've not mentioned that before. 

Andy Povey: You never talked about it. 

Kelly Molson: We're just at the end of June where we're recording this, so there's still a fair few months to go. We do have our summer break coming up, the season five will start in September. So we've got from September to December for someone to topple you off that number one slot. 

Dominic Jones: I'm happy to be toppled. And joking aside, both Andy and Simon's podcast were amazing and I love both of them. And actually all of your guests are really I do really love Skip the Queue. It's one of those treats you get to looking to the new Skip the Queue podcast. So if I get toppled from number one, life is okay. 

Kelly Molson: You are very kind. Right. Thank you for sharing those unpopular opinions. What would be lovely listeners if you follow us over on Twitter, you can just search for Skip the Queue. I'd like to know who's unpopular opinion you preferred the most out of those three, please. Maybe I'll do a little poll on Twitter next week when this podcast episode launches. Right. This is completely unscripted and this is really last minute for the guests and so I'm super grateful that you could come and join me today. Now, it is a bit of an unusual episode for me because I actually don't tend to talk about the stuff that I do or Rubber Cheese does on this podcast. Maybe tiny little snippets of it here and there, but we never kind of dedicate an episode to the things that we do. 

Kelly Molson: We had a free slot and I thought, I wanted to come on and talk about the initiative that we started last year that is now running in its second year. So bear with me while I explain a little bit of a background about it. So back in May 2022, Rubber Cheese, my agency, launched the first national survey of visitor attraction websites. So I've been asked to speak on a webinar by the lovely team at Kallaway PR, who have also Will Kallaway has been a guest on the podcast. They asked me to come on and talk about cart abandonment and ways that kind of design and UX can help prevent it. So I went away, put my slides together, tried to search for some data that would back up a few theories that I had. 

Kelly Molson: And that was when I kind of hit a bit of a brick wall. Yeah, brick wall, that's what I'm trying to say. Couldn't find any specific data for the sector. I could find data about cart abandonment rates for all kinds of ecommerce sites, all kinds of pharmaceutical companies. Anything and everything that you could think of was out there except visitor attractions. And I realised that I think the data gets a bit skewed for them because they were kind of getting put into hospitality or tourism in general, or hotels sometimes, I think outdoor and sports. So I wasn't kind of able to back up theories that I had with the data. So that led us to setting up the survey. 

Kelly Molson: And were really, really lucky to have some amazing bunch of people like the teams at ALVA and ASVA who totally supported the initiative and shared it with their members. Last year, we had a brilliant response. We had 70 leading attractions from up and down the UK take part. And in November last year, were able to launch the very first Visitor Attraction Website Report, which saw us set the first digital benchmarks for the sector. So the sector now has benchmarks for add to basket rate, basket abandonment rate, bounce rate, conversion rate, load times and then the report, because of the kind of questions that we asked, we got loads of key insight into user experience, booking journeys, mobile experience and loads, loads more. 

Kelly Molson: But more importantly, that report, since its launch, has enabled attractions to make improvements to their websites, which makes their service better for their clients and makes their digital presence better. So it's been such an exciting thing to be involved in and it is a real passion project for me. I've loved every minute of setting it up. This year, we are now in our second year of running it and we've got a brilliant partner in Andy and the team at Convious, which I'm thrilled about. Say thank you. So I've asked you all to come on today to talk a little bit about the survey and the report and what it has enabled you to do. I want to start a little bit with Dominic and Simon, really, and ask them the questions, because they are in the position of being senior leaders in a visitor attraction. 

Kelly Molson: They've both publicly spoken to me and said that the report has enabled them to do some really exciting things. And I think it's probably important for me to state that you're not our clients, like Rubber Cheese is not. We don't work with either of you from a client perspective. I'd definitely count you as friends and obviously Skip the Queue podcast alumni now as well. So, Simon, let me come to you first. What has the report enabled you to do at Roman Baths and why has it been important for you to kind of take part? What's it delivered for you? 

Simon Addison: Sure, I think the report came out at a really important time for us because were already in the midst of a website redesign project. So what the report enabled us to do was to look at the findings in the report, the stats in the report, and ensure that were building our new website in a way that optimised that sort of user experience and customer journey. But I think also in visitor attractions, our websites are often trying to do two quite different things. So, on the one hand, it's sort of the gateway to a visit. It's the first place that people go when they're planning their visit and they want to maybe buy a ticket and come to Bath. 

Simon Addison: At the same time, it's also telling sort of our more engaged audience, information about the collection and information about the history of the site or research that we're undertaking. And we want to be able to really quickly segregate those two audiences, because one audience we want to keep there for as long as possible to delve into the stories that we want to tell them and to really sort of effectively convert them from a very transactional relationship, which is buying a ticket to one of more of a supporter where they might donate in future. They'll become engaged in our program. And so designing a website that on the first page helps to divert visitors from that sort of more engaged, we're here to learn from, “We want to buy a ticket for Saturday”, and sort of get them on their journey quickly, efficiently and as few clicks as possible. 

Simon Addison: So I think having that endorsement of the importance of the user, the journey, how many clicks is optimal before people start abandoning and giving up, that was so helpful in the way that were designing the website. 

Kelly Molson: Amazing. That is such a good testimony for what we've done. And obviously we can't do any of that unless people take part in the survey and submit their data. And so we can understand and learn how websites are performing in the first place. But for me, it's really exciting to hear that because I guess having those kind of baseline benchmarks is a starting point for the industry. And that's, for me, what was missing completely in that we can talk about how we want them to improve and how we want the sector to move on. And I think, Andy, we've had a conversation before where we kind of feel like the sector is a little bit behind, where other industries are probably about four or five years, potentially behind in some areas. 

Andy Povey: I'd go even further than that, Kelly.

Kelly Molson: Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah. 

Andy Povey: Generally people don't pick up the phone to me and ask me to come and talk about their ecommerce platforms if they're perfectly happy with what they're doing. So maybe I'm seeing a different side of the market. But it astounds me how many attractions there are that aren't able to monitor their performance, to look at their conversion rates, to look at their basket abandonment rates, all that kind of stuff. It's astounding, which is why I'm really happy to be working with you on the survey this year. 

Kelly Molson: Okay, well, let me go to Andy now. So, Andy, introduce yourself for your role at Convious.

Andy Povey: So I'm responsible for everything we do with Convious in the UK and Ireland. So job title is MD, UK and Ireland. 

Kelly Molson: So Andy and I got introduced quite a while ago, actually, now. I feel like it was a Ticketing Professionals Conference. Was it there? 

Andy Povey: I think it was Dominic Jones that introduced us at the Museums and Heritage. 

Kelly Molson: Yes, it was Museums and Heritage. It was.

Andy Povey: And it did indeed. 

Dominic Jones: I can't believe you forgot that. 

Kelly Molson: Yes, it was with the Sarcophagus.

Dominic Jones: I brought two great people together. I mean, I feel like I don't get the credit for this introduction. Thank you. 

Kelly Molson: I'm sorry. 

Dominic Jones: You do? 

Kelly Molson: Yeah, it was you. You're actually really good at introducing people.

Dominic Jones: Talented people. Talented people to each other. 

Kelly Molson: Yeah. You grabbed me at this year's Eminet show and introduced me to multiple people, actually. It was very kind of you. What a kind man you are. 

Dominic Jones: It's a pleasure. 

Andy Povey: Isn't he? 

Kelly Molson: So this year, well, I mean, I guess this is thanks to you, Dominic. So Dominic introduced Andy and I.

Dominic Jones: You are welcome, by the way. Welcome. 

Kelly Molson: Why is it important for Convious to be part of what we're doing this year with the report?

Andy Povey: Well, it's actually more important to me on a personal level, I think, Kelly. I'm a massive fan of attractions have been for my whole working life, which is there have been quite a lot of years in that so far, and I just want to see attractions doing better than they do at the moment. We've shared lots of conversations about really awful booking experiences, not just for attractions. Booking tickets to my kids, after school clubs. Personal bear of mine is dreadful. Don't ever do it if you don't have to. 

Andy Povey: So I find that really frustrating. It upsets me to see attractions getting it wrong and some get it really wrong. So having some benchmarks, having some industry standards where people can go, actually, we're not doing what we should be doing. And why aren't we able to measure that? And what does it mean to our business by not measuring that? It's really important. 

Kelly Molson: It is really important. It's been phenomenal to have the support of Convious and specifically Andy and Mirabelle, who I've worked very closely with over the past few months on this project. What it's also allowing us to do, and hopefully this will grow year on year, is that it's opening up to a European audience as well. So, Andy, Convious is a Dutch company originally. 

Andy Povey: Yes. So we're headquartered in Amsterdam. Germany is actually our largest market in terms of volume of customers, but we also have significant presence in France and Belgium, Netherlands and Bedelux area. 

Kelly Molson: So we have had a number of submissions this year from European countries. And that's all down to Convious. 

Andy Povey: Thank you. 

Kelly Molson: We would hope over the next few years that this can start to grow and grow and become something that isn't solely focused on the UK market, which would be really exciting. We did actually have a Canadian zoo take part yesterday, which was quite exciting. So the message is slowly starting to spread out worldwide as well. An international survey. That's exciting, isn't it? 

Andy Povey: Absolutely, yeah. 

Dominic Jones: It was a game changer. That's what you've done. You've created something that is a true game changer. I remember getting very excited about the results and sitting at the back of the London Transport Theatre or wherever you launched them, and then just getting depressed every single slide. I was like, “Oh, no, we don't do that, or, we don't do that well, or, that's not great”. But it was fantastic because actually, for the first time ever, were able to compare ourselves and think, “Right, so if this is the industry standard, how can we make that better? How can we adapt that at the Mary Rose in Portsmouth Historic Dockyard?” and things like the five steps to make a booking and all this other sort of stuff that you were putting out. And I remember writing my book and thinking, “This is awful. This is absolutely awfu”l because we are performing way worse than that. We're still not fixed it.

Dominic Jones: We've got some money to look at websites and we put some new websites in and we're still developing it. But even little things like we changed and had a microsite last summer, we had one of our best summers ever, but we did that because of your data. We were looking and thinking, “We've got too many steps to making a booking or It takes too long to load this page, or actually we need to.” So I think you've really been a massive game changer, and if now you're getting the Canadians involved, I mean, it's going to be fantastic. I can't wait to see what they've got to say. 

Dominic Jones: So I do genuinely think you've made a big difference and I can't wait to see this year's results and next year's results. And I hope this is something you keep doing forever because you've made a real difference. You really have. 

Kelly Molson: Dominic, you're so kind. That's really kind. Thank you. That's amazing feedback. What I love about what you said is that you've actively been able to take the data that people have supplied and go, “We are here. We're not performing to that point yet. But if we make these changes, we can get to that point.” And that's what I love. This is what this is all about. It's about marginal gains. It's about making those tiny little 1% improvements every day and getting better and better. We couldn't ask for more. That's what we hoped. 

Dominic Jones: And before I get kicked and hit by all my colleagues, there were lots of things that were doing great as well. But actually, you don't talk about them, do you? Don't say, “Oh, well, we're doing okay because we're very British, we only really talk about the things that we want to improve or we're not doing right.” But I do think it's a phenomenal game changer and it's the sort of report that you can use as a toolkit to really sort of check where you are and where you want to be. And I genuinely can't wait for the next one. I hope we get a preview for doing this podcast. Did we get an early release? Is that part of the deal? Simon, did you sign something like that? 

Simon Addison: Yeah, signed it all. Dom, did you not get the paperwork? 

Dominic Jones: Of course you did. He's got people. 

Kelly Molson: If you've taken part in the survey, you will get it exclusively before it is released to the general public. So, I mean, I can confirm that you both have, which is a relief. 

Dominic Jones: Of course we have. We're early adopters, we love it. 

Simon Addison: I did check before we came on this afternoon that we completed it because I thought that would be really awkward. 

Dominic Jones: You probably won the Convious prize, right, for being one of the people that completed it all. The 100th person to complete. I saw all that online, honestly.

Andy Povey: I think everyone got one by you, Dom. I don't know what it was you've done to upset Mirabelle in our marketing team. 

Dominic Jones: I think you're taking this podcast thing a little bit too seriously. 

Simon Addison: Just to go back to what you were saying, Kelly, about marginal gains, I think that is where the value of this is, because most of us have got websites that are capable of selling a ticket. But when you operate a visitor attraction as successful as Dom’s, or you get hundreds of thousands of people going to your website or to your attraction each year, millions of people to the website. 

Simon Addison: And if you can achieve a 1% shift in a customer behaviour, the returns on that are really significant. So you don't have to suddenly come up with a revolutionary new website. You have to focus on what are the things that are just holding you back a little bit, removing those pain points from the customer journey. The uplift is so significant of just achieving a small percentage change. I know Dom doesn't like percentages, but that is what we're talking about here. 

Dominic Jones: No, with that terms, I do, absolutely. And you're absolutely right. And even little things like how it looks on a mobile as opposed to looking on a desktop.

Simon Addison: Exactly.

Dominic Jones: Change our way of thinking. And you've got to keep doing it because that's what's going to make this industry and where we all work and the amazing places that we work in even better. It's brilliant. 

Kelly Molson: Well, we absolutely will continue to do it. So this is the second year that we're running it and we have no intention of stopping. Just going back to what you said, Simon. I think what you said about making what you already have better in terms of your website, I think that's a really important point to push is that it has been a really weird few years. And this year I think all of us were kind of hoping this would be a year of normality. And let's face it really hasn't, has it? It's been another odd one. 

Kelly Molson: So we've started off the year, there's an awful war happening, there's a terrible cost of living crisis, there's all kinds of stuff happening that is affecting attractions. Yet again, affecting all of us, really, but affecting attractions in terms of whether people are going to come, how much they're going to spend, what they're going to do. We know that marketing budgets were going to be probably drastically cut this year by at least 15, 20%. That was the message that was being given when I attended the ALVA Heads of Marketing meeting before Christmas. So I think that being able to look at the report and use it to implement changes to what you already have is really important. You may not have the budget to go out and start again. 

Kelly Molson: You don't necessarily need to, but if there's improvements that you can be made to your site in terms of the performance or the speed, all of those things are going to help. They're all things that will add up over time and ultimately make the performance of it better and make the customer experience better. So think that's quite an important message to talk about. Another thing to add is that this year we're doing it again. We're asking the same questions that we did last year because obviously we need the same data set, but it's more so it's bigger and better. We'll get feedback on whether that's too much for people, but we're asking questions around Usability, whether you're collecting feedback. We're asking questions around kind of promotions and discounts and how people are measuring their traffic sources and whether they're doing user tests. 

Kelly Molson: So there's so much more that's going to be in it from this year. And one really exciting thing which you touched on, Dominic, is that everybody that takes part in the survey will get exclusive access to the report before it's made public. But actually, as soon as you've filled in the survey this year, you get a little mini report. And what it does is benchmark you where you are now against the benchmarks from last year. So it will give you a little report to identify how your website is performing based on last year's benchmarks that we identified. Now that's really important. So you could be underperforming, you might be performing too, you might be overperforming, you might be doing better than those benchmarks from last year, and those benchmarks may change dramatically from last year to this year, we don't know yet. 

Kelly Molson: So that's like a little added bonus. If you're on the fence about taking part, you will get something that's actionable as soon as you've taken part in the survey this year. This year the report will launch towards the end of September. We will release dates and be a bit more specific once we've closed the survey. But this episode is going to launch on the 5th July. That means that you've just got one week left to take part. So one week left before the survey closes on the 12th of July. So if you are thinking about it, stop thinking about it. Go and do it. It will literally take 20 minutes. You're going to need your Google Analytics open or other analytics tool that you use. You can find the link to the survey in our show notes of this show. 

Kelly Molson: You can head over to Rubbercheese.com and you will find the link to it on the home page. Or you can search for the 2023 Visitor Attraction Website Report and you will find it. You can head over to Convious and you will find it on Convious website. It's everywhere. Go find it. Do it. Take part. These guys did it. Made a big difference. 

Dominic Jones: Best 20 minutes of your life. Just do it. Just do it. Honestly, what else can you do? So much value in 20 minutes. There's not much else you can do.

Kelly Molson: I worry about how you spend your time. If that's the best 20 minutes of real life. Dominic, that's a concern, but, I mean, he's not wrong. 

Dominic Jones: I mean at work, not like in real life. I do amazing things in my normal life. 

Kelly Molson: If you could talk to all of the visitor attractions that are listening now, what would you say to them to encourage them to go and take part? 

Simon Addison: I would say that if you're not already looking at the things you need to fill in, then you should be looking at them anyway. So you say it takes 20 minutes, Kelly, to fill them in? I'll be honest. I didn't fill them in for the Roman Baths, our Digital Marketing officer did. And I think Dom's blank face when you're talking about the mini report also tells me that he didn't fill it in for Mary Rose either. But it's 20 minutes. But it's all data that you should be looking at. And if you're not looking at it's probably a prompt that you or your teams need to be looking at it anyway. 

Simon Addison: And getting that report allows you to either make the case with your trustees or your board to invest if you need investment, or it provides an endorsement of the quality of the website and the offer that you've got. Either one of those things is really useful and we know how hard it is to get investment. Kelly, you talked about marketing budgets at the moment. If you want to get money to invest in your website, having this evidence will help convince your CEO or your Trustees that's the right thing for you to do. And equally, if you don't need to, then this is confirmation of that. So that's what I'd say. 

Kelly Molson: Thank you. That is brilliant. How about you, Dom? 

Dominic Jones: I'd agree and I'll come clean. I didn't fill it in either, but someone did do it. But it's not the filling in, it's the reading it and using it that counts. Right? That's what matters. It's about receiving it and doing something with it. I actually think it's really useful to get as much benchmark data as possible in this industry. And actually what you do is you give us this for websites, you give it for ecommerce and it's fantastic. I wish there were more people doing it in all the areas of our industry because actually this visitor attraction to get benchmarks is quite rare. So it's fantastic to get that. So I really appreciate that. And I would say if you're listening and you work in a visitor attraction, why wouldn't you do this? 

Dominic Jones: Because like Simon says, you can understand where you are. You can use it for funding, you can use it towards getting revenue, you can use it towards recruiting some extra people in your team. You can use it to how you performance manage your team. You can use it for so many things. It's such a good document. I can't stress enough, I might not have filled out the form, but I definitely read it and I definitely used it and I do definitely love it.

Kelly Molson: Wow. So appreciative of your fabulous comments. Thank you both. Andy, what would you add to that? 

Andy Povey: Well, I don't know that I can, but really it shouldn't really take you that long to complete this because you should be all over this kind of data anyway. If you're a digital offer in any business and if you're not looking at this kind of stuff, then it's probably time to really start managing your business in a much better way. And really, just to reiterate the point, that an incremental improvement, just a 0.5% improvement in the results in this kind of area can deliver you hundreds and hundreds of thousands of pounds extra additional revenue over a twelve month period. So what else is that you could do in your business in 20 minutes that's going to potentially deliver that kind of result? 

Kelly Molson: Wow. There you go. I think you've said it all. Well done. Thank you. I really appreciate this. I threw this at you literally a few days ago to come on and they've had no time to prepare whatsoever. So I'm super grateful that you've given up a little bit of time for me to talk about it today. This is something that I'm so passionate about. I bloody love this podcast. I'm so lucky that I get to talk to such lovely people. And I think, like you've all said, just like, I mean, like echoing what Andy said, being able to make this industry better is something that is literally like at the core of me right now. I just want to see good people doing really good things and having really good results. 

Kelly Molson: So if everyone could please just go out and fill the Blooming survey and I'd be really grateful. Thank you. Right, books. Have you all prepared a book today? I didn't ask you to. I've got a book, but I feel like you might have. Right, throw it out. 

Dominic Jones: So I've got a book called The Alignment Advantage Transform Your Strategy, Culture and Customers to Succeed. Now, I love a good strategy book, so the last time I was on the podcast I recommended Good Strategy, Bad Strategy, a great book about strategy. I did bill it as the best book on strategy. Scrap that. It's the second best book on strategy. This is now the best book on strategy because it talks about how you have to align your culture and as a strategic enabler, your strategy and your experience. And for people who listen to Skip the Queue or fill out the Rubber Cheese Website Survey or work with Convious, one of the best people to work with in the world, they will love this book. It is incredible. The only book to read on Strategy by Richard Nugent, The Alignment Advantage. Fantastic. 

Dominic Jones: There is also an interview with a great guy from the Mary Rose in chapter two, I can't remember his name. I think it rhymes with Dominic Jones. I can't remember it fully, but it's very good to read.

Kelly Molson: I knew that there was something like that coming. I knew, Dominic. Amazing. Thank you for another number one strategy book. Simon, what would your book be and have you featured in it? 

Simon Addison: I can say I have not featured in this book. Unlike Dom, I don't read a lot of business and leadership books. I tend to read for escapism and relaxation. But I have picked a workbook and it's probably the only workbook I've gone back to and reread portions of. And it's called Leadership: Plain and Simple by Steve Radcliffe. The book was a foundation of a leadership course that I did when I was at the National Trust, which was called Future Engage, Deliver. And it was centered on the idea that in order to be an effective leader, you need to have clarity of your vision for the future. You need to engage your colleagues and your teams in that future and then collectively, you need to work together to deliver it. And it sort of broke that strategy and leadership piece into those three distinct portions. 

Simon Addison: And it had some really helpful models in there for self reflection, for getting meaningful feedback from teams and developing techniques to engage stakeholders in the delivery of your vision. I would recommend that obviously it's not the first or the second best book on leadership, but maybe it's the third. Who knows?

Kelly Molson: Love that. What's really interesting is these books. Both neither of those books have been recommended on the podcast before, so I always like it when a new ones come up because I add it onto my little wish list on Amazon. 

Dominic Jones: I'm going to read that book. I've not heard of that one, Simon, but that sounds amazing. I do love the book recommendations. I do the same. I go buy them. Except for the Harry Potter one.

Kelly Molson: I already had and you knocked Geoff off as well, didn't you? 

Dominic Jones: Did I knock Geoff off? 

Kelly Molson: Yeah. Geoff was number one for quite a while. 

Dominic Jones: Is he no longer number one? Skip the Queue. 

Kelly Molson: No, did I not tell you that you are number one?

Simon Addison: Once you edit this out, kelly, this is going to be a really short podcast episode. 

Kelly Molson: I'm leaving all of this in. Andy, what about you? Have you got a book that you'd like to share? 

Andy Povey: A book I'll keep going back to is The Experience Economy by Joe Pine. And I don't know whether someone else has recommended this in the past, but for me, that whole life chain value thing, the graph where you talk about a thing becoming a commodity and everything moving into the sort of experience space, really fits with what we're doing in our industry. It really fits with what we do at Convious. The reason I enjoy what we do. 

Kelly Molson: It's a good book. I'm going to ask Joe if he'll come on the podcast. 

Andy Povey: So I saw him talking at the Blooloop conference a few years ago. Absolutely compelling. 

Dominic Jones: Could he maybe talk at the January? Why don't we get him on 2025 podcast? Let's do that, right? 

Kelly Molson: Yeah, let's discuss it off the pod. Yeah, we'll discuss that later. Thank you all. I'm so grateful. Oh, as ever. Sorry, listeners. If you want to win a copy of those books, head over to our Twitter feed. You know what to do. Retweet this podcast announcement. But more importantly, go and fill in the survey. Be so grateful. 

Andy Povey: Fill in the survey. 

Kelly Molson: Fill in the survey. We have got, actually a podcast exclusive. Let me tell you how many attractions have taken part so far. Last year, 2022, 70 attractions from up and down the country took part. This year with a week well, actually, it's two weeks today, but a week to go. When this podcast launches, 129 attractions have taken part. So we've nearly doubled on last year. I'm so thrilled. But, yeah, if we could get that to 140, that would be amazing. Imagine 140 attractions being able to improve their websites this year, being able to improve their customer service, being able to improve their bottom line. That's what it's all about. Thanks, guys. You've been amazing. 

Simon Addison: Thanks, Kelly. 

Dominic Jones: Incredible.

Andy Povey: Thank you, Kelly. 

Kelly Molson: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned. 

Skip The Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website, rubbercheese.com/podcast.

Download The Visitor Attractions Website Survey Report - https://www.merac.co.uk/download-the-visitor-attractions-survey

We have launched our brand-new playbook: ‘The Retail Ready Guide to Going Beyond the Gift Shop’ — your go-to resource for building a successful e-commerce strategy that connects with your audience and drives sustainable growth.

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Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is  Kelly Molson, Founder of Rubber Cheese.

Download the Rubber Cheese 2022 Visitor Attraction Website Report - the first digital benchmark statistics for the attractions sector.

If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website rubbercheese.com/podcast.

If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this podcast

Competition ends July 31st 2023. The winner will be contacted via Twitter.

Show references:

https://www.alnwickgarden.com/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/ianjmcallister/

https://www.itv.com/news/tyne-tees/2023-05-24/worlds-biggest-play-park-set-to-open

Ian McAllister is the Strategic Head of Marketing and Communications at The Alnwick Garden and Lilidorei.  His route into attraction marketing wasn’t an obvious one – from not joining the RAF (based mainly on eyesight and petulance) he dabbled in recruitment ( based mainly on proximity to his flat) then television (based mainly on flatmate work envy).  He manages a team of marketers who deliver all marketing, PR and communications to these two attractions based in Northumberland.

Transcriptions:

Kelly Molson: Welcome to Skip The Queue, a podcast for people working in or working with visitor attractions. I'm your host, Kelly Molson. Each episode, I speak with industry experts from the attractions world. 

In today's episode I speak with Ian McAllister, Strategic Head of Marketing and Communications at The Alnwick Garden.

Ian shares with us the magical story behind Lilidorei, logistics of creating a play structure over 26 meters tall, snot ice cream, free Fridays and the impact this will have on the local area and children.

 If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue. 

Kelly Molson: Ian, I'm so excited to have you on the podcast today. Thank you for coming to join me. 

Ian McAllister: No problem. 

Kelly Molson: Let's start with some icebreakers, shall we? Ian and I, we had a little pre podcast chat a few weeks ago and we established that we're both from sunny old Essex. This could end up quite messy, really, couldn't it? Because I tend to whenever I'm speaking to my Essex kinfolk, my accent goes, very Essex. This might get messy. 

Ian McAllister: The good thing is, living up here, people don't know my real accent, but once they hear that, I'm sure that it'll come out. 

Kelly Molson: They will after this, Ian. Right, okay, icebreakers. I want to know, topical, what's the worst Essex nightclub that you've ever been in? 

Ian McAllister: Tots, Southend. But it was so bad that I used to go every Friday. It was bad for the sticky floors and for the people that were there and for the music they played and everything about it was terrible. But every Friday I would still go up there. I don't know why.

Kelly Molson: So bad. It's so good. I can remember driving there from my part of Essex and going out Tots. Someone broke my big toe into Tots. Literally, like, stamped on my big toe and broke it. 

Ian McAllister: Do you remember? There was a place called Ritzes, which I think was in Romford, and went there one night, and this was back in the day, where people thought if you were wearing trainers, you were going to cause trouble, so you weren't allowed to wear trainers. And a mate of mine, Paul Mayo. I had two good friends in Essex, Paul Mayo and Ross Gherkin, so they were the three of us. But Paul Mayo went up to the club and they wouldn't let me say trainers. So he left the queue and went around the corner, took his shoes off and took his black socks off, put his trainers back on and his black socks over his trainers, and they just let him straight in. 

Kelly Molson: Wow. 

Ian McAllister: Yeah. Which made Moonwalking brilliant, because he had a really good sock that he could moonwalk across the dance floor. 

Kelly Molson: That is ridiculous. That's ridiculous. So sorry, we just need to go back to your friend's names as well. Mayo and Gherkin. Are you joking? 

Ian McAllister: Mayo and Gherkin? No. So, I mean, I was always Mac. So I was always Ian Mac. Then there was Mayo and Gherkin. So they were the three of us that used to kick around together in Essex. 

Kelly Molson: That is chaos already. 

Ian McAllister: There you go. Opening question. 

Kelly Molson: This is an ethics thing as well, right? Everybody has nicknames, don't they? You know the Gavin and Stacy thing, where you got Smithy and what? Chinese Allen. That's the thing. That is so Essex, it's ridiculous. 

Ian McAllister: My nickname for ages was I wasn't a good looking chap growing up. And I had a brace, a demi wave, and I had these big reactor like glasses and I don't know if you've ever seen the National Lampoons European vacation, but the sun was called Rusty Grizzwald. So my friend Gary decided that I was just called Rusty, so he still calls me it to this day. So I'm still just Rusty. 

Kelly Molson: Oh, God, that's so weird, because my next question was going to be, if you ever been told you look like someone famous, who was it? 

Ian McAllister: Yeah, but that's not a positive thing. 

Kelly Molson: No. I wasn't expecting Rusty from National Lampoons to come up. 

Ian McAllister: I mean, lots of people to try and compare themselves to you, like some Brad Pitt and George Clooney, whereas I'm going for 15 year old Rusty Grizzled. 

Kelly Molson: Humble. I think that's quite humble, isn't it? Right, final one. I feel like the ice is well and truly broken, melted. What is your best scar story? 

Ian McAllister: My best scar story is a very recent one. Last year on New Year's Day, I took the kids for a lovely walk to our local woods with the dog. And me being me, I challenged them both to climb a tree. And it was a tree that was like one of these trees that's too good not to climb, do you know what I mean? It was really big branches and big trunk. So I've got twins, 14 year old twins, a boy and a girl. So my daughter was like a whippet and she went up the tree and then my son, with a bit of encouragement, went up the tree and he got his foot wedged in, like the V of the branch, about seven and a half, eight foot up, so he couldn't get out. 

Ian McAllister: So I climbed up behind him and I held onto a branch either side of him. I said, "Right, all you got to do is just wiggle your foot a little bit". So he obviously didn't hear a word I said. He yanked his foot out, so we both fell out the tree. So I grabbed onto him and he landed on me. And as he landed, I heard ankle snap. So I'm at the top of a woods, probably a mile into the woods. So the kids that week before have been at Scouts and they learned about what three words. So we had to phone an ambulance and they did the what three words and this, that and the other. 

Ian McAllister: So the ambulance had to then he couldn't drive, so you had to push the stretcher for a mile, pretty much up an incline to get to me. Had to take a breather because it was so far up, put me on the stretcher, but then the ambulance had to drop, so it's just me and the kids that live here with the dog. So the ambulance then had to drop the dog and my kids at my house before they took me to hospital. So turned out I completely broken my ankle, so I had to go for an operation. And I had a metal plate pulse, ligament and wiring all around my ankle. 

Ian McAllister: So I've got a treat of a scar on my ankle that they also cut through two nerves, so I also can't feel from a nerve down from the little toe, from a knee down to the little toe at the minute. 

Kelly Molson: I feel like we're going to have to put a warning on this podcast episode, if anyone's like a slightly queasy disposition. Wow. I was not expecting that. 

Ian McAllister: Yeah, it's a lovely story, isn't it? I think I've learned the lesson. I made a blue plaque on photoshop about Ian fell here and I went back to the tree afterwards and pinned it on the tree. 

Kelly Molson: It's a special moment. 

Ian McAllister: That tree will always be in my memory. 

Kelly Molson: But well done, your children, on learning the skills to get you out of a very tricky situation. 

Ian McAllister: Yeah, it was great, but they loved it because they got riding an ambulance, so their Snapchat stories were filled up that day with pictures of them and the dog in an ambulance on a muddy New Year's Day. 

Kelly Molson: Great story. Thank you for sharing. I feel like we've started the podcast on high. 

Ian McAllister: We can't really go any lower than this, can we? 

Kelly Molson: Not really, no. Your unpopular opinion, Ian. I dread to think what this might be. 

Ian McAllister: Had a few and I was trying to think which one would upset the least people. So I had a few. I was trying to think which one upset the least people. So this one's cake. And I hate cake. And I've always hated cake, really dislike cake. And I think people say to me, "what is it you don't like about cake?". And I think I've narrowed it down to the taste, the texture, the smell and the look. Because just everything about a cake, I don't like. So when it comes to birthdays, the kids obviously get me a birthday cake because they can eat it themselves, but I just don't like cake. I've got a bit of a funny not so much now, but I had a funny food thing. I'm sorry in advance. I didn't eat yellow food for about six months. 

Ian McAllister: It was anything yellow, even to the point where if I got a packet of M&Ms, I wouldn't eat the yellow ones. 

Kelly Molson: Can I just ask what age you were? Was this 30? 

Ian McAllister: Probably worse than that? It's about 35. Like my late 30s. Genuinely, genuinely developed an aversion to yellow food. So my friend Steven, who's head of HR at work, he went through a phase of thinking to try and reeducate me. So every Friday he'd go through Steven's adventures in food. It was all the food that I probably should have eaten by the time I was, like, 40 years and hadn't. So things like sushi or porridge. Every Friday he'd bring in something and it would be a chart, like a reward chart. And he'd put a little sticker on if I liked it or didn't like it. Just because people don't know I'm a 47 year old man with two children. 

Kelly Molson: Oh, God. And have you eaten a banana since? That's what I need to know. 

Ian McAllister: Yeah, since I started re eating yellow food, I'm all over it. I like a banana, like a bit of pineapple. Cheese is great. We just have the argument because people would say to me, and this was my bugbear, and they get really irritated with this. It's a what about chips? Chips aren't yellow. They're like a beige. So chips were allowed. 

Kelly Molson: Okay. And pasta as well. They're all in the beige category rather than yellow. Okay. 

Ian McAllister: Yeah. So can you imagine presenting me with a yellow cake? Yellow cake? That'd be my idea of h***. 

Kelly Molson: That's your worst nightmare, isn't it? Jaffa Cake. How do you sit about that? Is that a cake or a biscuit? 

Ian McAllister: But food of choice would always be a chocolate hobnob. No question. 

Kelly Molson: Great biscuit. Yeah. In the fridge. 

Ian McAllister: Great biscuit. Crunch. Good for the dunk. Always in the fridge, yeah. Chocolate. What do you think about this chocolate? Does it live in your cupboard or in your fridge? 

Kelly Molson: Fridge. I like a crunch. I like it to go crunch and then I like that it then melts in your mouth. It's like two different sensations in one. People will argue about this. This is not an unpopular popular opinion, by the way, but people will not be happy about this at all. 

Ian McAllister: No, but I mean, the people that aren't happy with it are wrong. 

Kelly Molson: They are. Agreed. Oh, my goodness, what a start for this podcast. Okay, how did an Essex boy end up in Northumberland? Tell me a little bit about your background, because you're not from attractions background at all, are you? You come from a completely different sector. 

Ian McAllister: Yeah, when I got married, which since divorced, but when I got married, my best man suggested it was witness protection. That's what kind of brought me 350 miles north. But the fact was I was working, I'm from Essex, as we've previously mentioned, and I then went to university in Surrey. I went to Kingston and I was working just locally, really, just in pubs and clubs. And I went downstairs to my flat and it was a redeployment, so I thought, it's time to get a proper job. And it was literally under my flat and I ended up working there, mainly because it was under my flat and it took about 10 seconds to commute to it. So I spent a bit of time in recruitment and at the time I was living with two flatmates weirdly, both called Marcus. 

Ian McAllister: So Marcus One and Marcus Two both worked in TV. One worked, I think Channel Five and One was a BBC or ITV. And I kept telling how good their jobs were and how great their life was, and I thought, "Well, you know what, can't beat them, got to join them". So I did actually beat them. So I wrote to MTV with a really cocky letter saying how much it be their big mistake if they didn't recruit me and this and the other. So I went in for my interview and the guy said, I've got you in because you're either really good or really cocky. And I don't know which one it is. So eventually they gave me a job. So I worked in media in London and I think I was there for two years. 

Ian McAllister: I just got sick of the rat race and it was just the commute to London. It was an hour each way and I was fed up of it, and I was fed up with the people and I was fed up of the busyness. And I met my then wife, who is from up here, but she had a flat in Edinburgh. I just thought, "You know what, I've got no real commitments down here". I don't have any kids or pets or any of that sort of stuff. So I just chose to order and we moved to Edinburgh and I kind of flipped around in recruitment and odds and ends, moved to the north and set up a property company. So were renting properties to students. 

Ian McAllister: Then I went to work for a marketing company and then I ended up working where I do now, The Alnwick Garden part time doing marketing and then just kind of worked my way up from there. I couldn't remember what the question was. Was it your background? 

Kelly Molson: Yeah, you answered it well. Yeah. Well done. 

Ian McAllister: Thanks. Definitely didn't come from tourism, but I kind of came from marketing kind of sales. And I think I've always been one of these people that might be clear by now that could just talk. 

Kelly Molson: That's coming across. Definitely getting that on this episode. But I like that you sound like someone who makes their own opportunities in life, which I like. You just go out and get what you want and what's going to fit for you. Tell us a little bit about Alnwick Garden because we're going to talk a little bit about something attached to Alnwick Garden. But Alnwick Gardens itself is quite spectacular. Think it dates back is it 1996? It dates back to is that when. 

Ian McAllister: It was originally about 1890s. We can date it back to. So it was the original garden kitchen garden for the Alnwick Castle. So it was throughout the two World Wars, it was what fed all the local farmers and the local community and this, that and the other. So come the 90s is when the Duchess of Northumberland, who lives in the castle, was married to the Duke. That's when she took it on as a bit of a project. And she got in some designers from, I think Belgium called Vertz Design. So it's a Vertz design garden and she took it over as a garden and she always wanted it to be she always said it was going to be a stage for people to do whatever they want in, so we can put on events. 

Ian McAllister: We've had random things, like we've had mixed martial arts in the garden and then we've had Peppa Pig characters coming in. So it's a real variety of things that we do in the garden. But, yeah, so it's been open for 20 odd years now. We're a charity, so we're just about celebrating the 20th year of becoming a charity. So, yeah, the Alnwick Garden itself is a garden, as you'd expect. It's got world's largest Taihaku cherry orchard outside of Japan, got Poison Garden, it's got the world's largest treehouse, which is a restaurant. It's got all these kind of unusual things that you wouldn't necessarily put in, like an RHS garden or a queue garden type place. And it's a great big open space that we market, people come and we do weird events in. 

Kelly Molson: So it's quite special in its own right, isn't it? But then, about twelve years ago, Jane Percy, the Duchess of Northumberland, she had another idea, didn't she? And that's what we're going to talk about today. Do you all get a little bit worried when she says, "I've got this idea?". Because this one's been a pretty mental one, hasn't it? Spectacularly mental one. 

Ian McAllister: Yeah. It's kind of that first glimmer of, "Oh, God, what's it going to be now with the backup of the thing is that when she has an idea, she sees it through". And I say this, I know a lot of people chuck this phrase around loosely, and I don't mean it this at all. She's a visionary, because she has these completely off the wall ideas, but has then got the determination and the team behind her to actually see them through. So the new project being the biggie, which has been years in the making and years in the planning, and I'm sure do you want to introduce it or do you want me to say what it is? 

Kelly Molson: Well, what do you do it. The world's biggest children's play park. 

Ian McAllister: Yeah. So it's called Lilidorei, which every single thing in it is from her head. And she's got this really creative outlook on life, and she's then pulls in the right people to kind of bring them to life. So she imagined this place where kids could just be away from technology, where they could play and actually play like we used to when were little. And we'd go out making dens and kind of making up our own stories. And it's called Lilidorei,. So the concept of the place is that it's a Lilidorei, village and there's nine clans that live in this village and all of the clans worship Christmas. So you've got good clans and you've got bad clans. 

Ian McAllister: And it's weird talking about this in a normal way now, and I've seen construction staff talk about this, and it feels weird to be saying things like the elves and the fairies and the pixies. But it got to the point when were building where you'd see the big construction workers and the joiners fags in their mouth, talking about pixies houses and fairies and elves. But the concept is that some of the clans are really good, like the fairies and the pixies, and then some are a bit more troublesome, like the goblins and the hobgoblins and the trolls. But at Christmas time, they all come together to worship Christmas. So whilst it's Christmas themed, it's not Christmas all year, apart from the gift shop, which is fully Christmas at every time. 

Ian McAllister: They can buy a ball tomorrow if you want, but we've also got the world's largest play structure. So the place structure was built by a company called MONSTROM, who are based in Denmark. And it's one of these things that's got to be seen to believed, which makes marketing it quite tricky because you can't really feel it until you stood underneath it. But local landmark, the angel of the north, is always a good point of reference. So our play structure is 6 meters taller than the angel of the north. And there's a slide from the top, so it's a 26 meters high structure and there's a slide that comes from 20 meters up. 

Ian McAllister: But to get to this slide, you go around this really convoluted system of walkways and corridors and climbing up uncomfortable spaces and squeezing through things and climbing up nets, and that's just part of it. The rest of it is all these clan houses. So it's a really fascinating place. 

Kelly Molson: It's amazing, isn't it, that all of this came out of her head? So I watched the ITV, did a publication on your launch, which was it was only a couple of weeks ago, wasn't it, that it opened? The presenter of the snippet, he went up the slide and came down it and he was talking it through and he was saying, 26 meters. And I was like, "Yeah, that's quite high, isn't it?". But you can't really grasp when someone says that. To me, I couldn't really kind of grasp what the height of 26 meters actually looked like. So when you said that comparison that you've just given about the angel of the north, that's really big. 

Ian McAllister: But there's no point. It's all enclosed. So, like, you've got open netting and this and other but there's nowhere that kids can actually fall off, if you like. So I think kids, it tests their bravery. It's handy for us from an insurance point of view, health and safety, certainly, but kids like, test themselves. So you'll see them start the session and they'll just be on the little swings at the bottom or on the little spinny mushrooms, and then by the end of the session, you see them at the top running around like it's no one's business, just testing bravery. I think that's the big thing. 

Kelly Molson: Yeah. And I love the idea that it opens your imagination. You can be any part of that story. You've got that underlying story of the clans and that they worship Christmas, but then you make your own part of that story to go with it, and based on where you interact and where you go and where you climb or what houses you go into and all of those kind of things. It is pure magic, isn't it? 

Ian McAllister: It is. And we've got a team of people that work. They're called secret keepers. So they're sitting in their outfits and costumes, but they're really extravagantly dressed with feathers in their hats and all sorts. Their job is almost to facilitate the play. So it was almost a marketer's dream when I started off because we couldn't really talk about what it was because people didn't understand until it was built, couldn't see it. So I came up with a concept, which is the most lazy marketing you'll ever think of and the whole tagline which is carried through is, what's your story? So really what we're doing is we're encouraging people to make their own narrative and to make their own story, which saves me the job for a start, but also we don't want to dictate that. 

Ian McAllister: Well, that clan looks like this because you can't see the clans, you can see the houses and you can imagine how they are, but you can't actually see anything. So when you get there, it's all brought together by this immersive sound we've got. It's like a million quids worth of sound system for each clan. House has got its own immersive sound system that kind of gives you implications or ideas as to what that clan might be up to or what's happening inside the house. So you can look into their house window and you can see how it's all set up. So it kind of starts to build this picture and then the secret keepers are there to encourage that with the kids and, "What do you think they look like? And could you hear that sort of noise?". 

Ian McAllister: And it gives this underlying narrative for every kid that comes, is obviously going to leave with a different picture of what a particular clan or a particular circumstance is like. 

Kelly Molson: That's amazing. So you don't have the characters. They never see what the goblins look like, for instance. They have to make all of that upload in their own minds. 

Ian McAllister: Yeah, I mean, we've got this sort of narrative in the background. We've got an idea of what Duchess has imagined the Clans to look like or the Clans to do, or the Clans to kind of be like. But we never tell the kids this. It's all about provoking thought and provoking story. There was books that I used to read when I was a kid, and they would choose your own adventure books, and it was kind of you make your own adventure. So every even if one kid came to Lilidorei, five times, they might have a completely different experience each time just because of their imagination and the sort of stuff that the secret keepers have fed them, if you like. 

Kelly Molson: I love that. While we're talking about secret keepers, you've got ahead of Play, haven't you, Nathan? I don't know any other organisations or attractions that have got ahead of Play. How did that kind of come about? 

Ian McAllister: So to give me his full name, it's Nathan Bonk.

Kelly Molson: Excellent name. 

Ian McAllister: Nathan Bonk, he's come over from America specifically to organise the play and the secret keepers and this. So that's his kind of creation, if you like, in conjunction with the Duchess. So he was meeting with the duchess virtually daily to make sure he's on the right lines, and she was happy with what he was doing, but to kind of put an extra element of weirdness into the story, which in case we haven't had enough weirdness in the podcast already in the Garden going back two or three years, I'm friends with a guy called Stewart who's the reigning Mr. Gay World, and he's only reigning because they disbanded the competition after he finished it. So he kept title. He's kept that. So he got in touch to say that he wanted somewhere to host Mr. Gay England, which is like a pride initiative. 

Ian McAllister: And it's not just a catwalk, it's education and it's exams, and then the winner of it ends up representing the gay community to go to Parliament and lobby Parliament and speak in schools and this and the other. So I said, well, the best place, really, if you think of the most sort of unusual place that you could think of in a really rural town where there aren't many people of any persuasion, would be Alnwick. So we put it in the middle of the garden. The cat walks right down the middle of the garden, and we've rebranded that entire day, which we're doing again this year, Gay Day. So what we do is we have Gay Day, and it's everything. We've got market traders, LBTQ+ friendly market traders and face painters, and we do trails and all sorts of things. 

Ian McAllister: So anyway, last year we had Mr. Gay Europe and Nathan's friends with Stewart. So Nathan came over to help with the competition. Mr. Norway had COVID, so couldn't turn up. So there were one person short. So Nathan ended up weirdly representing America in the Mr. Gay Europe competition. 

Kelly Molson: Wow. 

Ian McAllister: If you get to know Nathan, as you'd understand, he's always got an outfit of two just stashed away just in case. So he came out with like, the short camouflage shorts and the face paint and waving the USA flag. Anyway, after Gay Day, he went home and he'd fallen in love with Alnwick. And it was just it wasn't New York. He lived like a six minute walk to Central Park. So it's totally different. But he fell in love with the place. And he sent me an email, a bit of a video explaining why love Alnwick and if there's any opportunities that came up, and this, that, and the other. And the only thing that popped in them ahead as soon as I saw his video was the head of play, and I just knew that he would be the person for this role. 

Kelly Molson: But was it a role that you were looking for or did you create. 

Ian McAllister: It for the role we discussed? We always discussed that we needed someone. It was going to be it's almost like a head of operations for Lillidorei, but that sounds far too boring. So we always knew there was going to be a role for somebody. I don't think we quite realised to the extent of how influential this role would be in creating the entire story and the entire visit. So Nathan, with his ideas, he's opened theme parks before. He's been in stunt performances in various theme parks. He opened, like, the Harry Potter experiences in Orlando. So he's done all this stuff already. But I remember he Zoom called me one morning. He said, you're never going to believe it. I've got an interview with the Duchess at lunchtime. Brilliant. So I gave him a few bit of background and what were working towards. 

Ian McAllister: About 2 hours later, he zoomed me back. He said, you're never going to believe it. I've got the job. They sort me out a house. I'm flying over next week, and I've got a tea at the castle with the Duchess. It's like every American film you've seen where they tried to represent England in a completely fictional way. He was living it. 

Kelly Molson: What a life. Wow. 

Ian McAllister: And that was it. And he's been here since. And he loves it. He's absolutely settled. He's incredible. He's got this team of amazing people who do things like juggling with Diablos and teaching kids that go on balance boards and hula hoops. Their job is to interact with everybody that comes in and just create the atmosphere. 

Kelly Molson: And that's what makes the place so special, isn't it? It's that interaction from the people and the encouragement of the ideas that the children have to explore them that makes it a magical place. 

Ian McAllister: It is. It's incredible to sit as a construction site. All of a sudden. And now to see 600, 700 kids running around each session screaming and laughing and coming out with ruddy faces and wet trousers, it's everything we wanted it to be come to life, a 

Kelly Molson: It sounds magic. And I've seen those faces, I've seen the kids faces on the ITV clip, which we'll put in the show notes, actually, so you can have a look at it if you haven't had a chance to go up there yet. I want to talk a little bit about, because you've said a few times now, Alnwick want to talk a little bit about, because you've said a few times now, Alnwick, it's relatively rural, a small community, there's not a huge amount going on there other than this spectacular Alnwick Garden and Lilidorei that's just launched. You offer Free Fridays. And I saw the Duchess talk about this. It's for local children, school children, to come for free on a Friday so they can experience what's happening there. What impact do you think that Lilidorei is going to have on the local community and the children there? 

Ian McAllister: I think so. Two elements to that, really, then, the creation of the attraction itself. We've always estimated roughly, or looking quite accurately, based on recent figures, that it's going to bring an extra 200,000 people a year into the area. And that's going to benefit, obviously, it's going to benefit us, it's going to benefit the Alnwick Garden Trust, it's going to benefit the Alnwick Castle, which is another attraction up the road. All the local restaurants, pubs, hotels, everyone's going to benefit because what we're hoping to do is turn AlnwickAll the local restaurants, pubs, hotels, everyone's going to benefit because what we're hoping to do is turn Alnwick into a multi day destination, so people won't just come for one of the things and go back to Newcastle, back to Edinburgh. They'll do it as a day trip. So we're hoping that it will really kind of drive the local economy. 

Ian McAllister: So in terms of local economic benefit, I think that's kind of nailed, really. The figures are already quite obvious. In terms of the Free Fridays, then you don't have to go that far out of Alnwick, particularly if you went to South Northumberland and there's quite a lot of people that are in all sorts of various situations. There's schools in different areas, there's kids that just would not be able to afford to come otherwise because it's comparable to other attractions. But it's still not a cheap day out, it's not three quid to go to the local soft play. So there's a lot of kids that the Duchess particularly just didn't think it was fair, wouldn't be able to experience it, hence Free Fridays. 

Ian McAllister: So the idea of Free Friday is that every school child in Northumberland, and then eventually, when we've kind of been running for a bit, we'll widen it to Tyne and Wear into Newcastle. But at the minute, every child in Northumberland should be able to experience Lillidorei without having to pay. So we've opened up this application process where local schools can apply to come to one of the sessions and that's for any Friday throughout the year. So already the mini uptake has been phenomenal and there's schools that you see that you think, you know, I know exactly what area that school is in and without making too many judgments, you know, that they just would not be able to afford to come, so we're giving them the opportunity to come. 

Ian McAllister: So that's part one of Free Fridays, which is well underway at the minute, and I think we're almost booked up for the rest of the next twelve months with Fridays. 

Kelly Molson: That's amazing. 

Ian McAllister: But the next part is that the Duchess is to now do other initiatives to try and put money into a ring fenced account. So then eventually when that account builds up, we'll also be able to start to subsidise travel. So if you've got a school that's an hour's journey away, hopefully this pot of money, they can apply to it to pay for their hiring of a school coach or a minibus or whatever it's going to be to actually bring the kids up. So it's an entirely free day and there's different things like she's doing private tours, we're doing packages where you can have a nice meal at the treehouse and then come into Lilidorei afterwards. So like I say, that's all going to be ring fence specifically for transport from Free Fridays. 

Kelly Molson: That's incredible. What an opportunity. And like you say, for the kids that just would not have that opportunity to be able to go and experience it. It's just such a wonderful thing to be able to do. 

Ian McAllister: It is, it's incredible. And I think a lot of the feedback we saw before we opened, because again, as I say, it was quite hard to explain the concept of it and what you actually got for your 15 quid entry fee. So a lot of people say you've outpriced us and we can't afford it and this, that and the other. And that's why it was really good to then say, "Look, if you want to bring your kids, just tell your kids to speak to their teacher and get the teacher to speak to us and we can facilitate them for free". So it's making a difference already. It's incredible. 

Kelly Molson: Yeah. And I guess then it's about selling what that 15 pounds gets you the benefits of that 15 pounds. Yes, it's a relatively higher price point, but you start to break it down about the experience that they get there and the magic that can actually happen that they can't get anywhere else, and then it starts to become slightly more appealing purchase.  You can stay there for quite a long time, right? You've got that dwell time as well. So when you work it out, cost per hour, it actually seemed quite reasonable. 

Ian McAllister: And I think having two kids myself, I think what am I going to compare this to? So you can't compare it to going to local council run park because it's nowhere near the same, it's not just a climbing frame. And then I think, "Well, what else would I do for the kids for that time period on a Saturday if we're bored?" Probably get the cinema. So the cinema is going to be 1520 quid to get in. And then, sweetness, you got 2 hours of sitting in silence watching a film and then you come out, go home and that's done. 

Ian McAllister: So to compare it to that, to Lilidorei, you've got a three hour session where you can come in, whole family can interact and it's running free and it's fresh air, I mean, it's not fumbling, it's always fresh air and by fresh I mean probably freezing most of the time. But you've got this it's a completely different experience and I think where people were just looking at it as it's a climbing frame, well, I could just go up the park. So it's trying to explain to people that it is different and yeah, it doesn't work out a really cheap day if you've got two parents and three kids, for example. But what we have done, we've introduced, and we're going to look at this after some holidays, we introduced the founder Lilidorei membership. 

Ian McAllister: My idea with this is always it's got to be for the child focused. So it's the child that has the membership. So little Johnny could have a membership for him and an adult, or him and two adults, and that means they could bring in mum and dad or they could bring in Nanny Granddad or they could bring in whoever they want. But it's always for me been the child that dictates this whole thing. So we always say that well behaved adults can come in with a responsible child. So we've kind of flipped the narrative a little bit there. And in terms of the membership itself, I used to read the Beano when I was a kid and the only thing I ever wanted grown up was Dennis the Menace fan club membership. 

Ian McAllister: And with that it cut a wallet, a membership card and a badge. And so for me, Lilidorei membership, you get a wallet, a card and a badge. So all these founder lidorians walk around proudly displaying their badge because there was a limited number of to be the very first people to be these members. But it's empowering the kids. The adults are allowed to come if the kid says they can come. I almost wanted to wake up on a Saturday morning and the child go, "Right, mom, you've been good, you can come with me. Dad, you got to wash the car and do the dishes". 

Kelly Molson: I love that. I love that giving them the choice of who they take and to take Granny as well. Yeah, it's a really good point about the memberships, isn't it? Because it is generally tied to the adult and the children that they have. But I love that you've empowered the kids to make that choice. Yeah. So you've got to be the kid. The parents have to be good all week. 

Ian McAllister: Exactly. That's to end the story points.

Kelly Molson: Yeah. Well, we're going back to your food eating and your little sticker chart, aren't we? That's what you need. There you go. Sell that in the shop for the adults to buy their sticker reward chart, whether they get to come back or not on the next visit. 

Ian McAllister: That's a great idea, talking to the shop, actually, just briefly, because you may. 

Kelly Molson: Segue listen, I'm on fire today, Ian. Segue into the shop. 

Ian McAllister: My good friend Matthew Henderson, who anyone who listens to podcast will have heard him before. He has been incredible. He's been absolutely amazing. It was him that put you and I in touch in the first place. We bought him in to get the shop ready. And to say it's shop ready is the biggest understatement of the century, because I've never seen anything like it. The people that work in retail, a retail manager, Tracy, to coin a phrase, and not sound corny, it's like all the Christmases have come at once, because she's always wanted this shop that she's proud of, that she's selling things that she believes in. It's all been sourced specifically for her. And Matt has done just what a job. It's incredible. 

Kelly Molson: He is such a great guy, Matt. So Matthew came on our podcast. It was only a few episodes away, actually, ago, actually, and Matt used to work at Beamish and now he's out on his own. He's a consultant now and helps lots of attractions work out their special offering, the uniqueness when it comes to products. And I have seen a photograph of the shop and, oh, my God, it looks like an attraction in itself. It looks like something you'd pay to go visit in itself, like a Santa's Grotte or say. It's just incredible. 

Ian McAllister: It's phenomenal. And he was also fundamental in helping us with all the food and stuff that we're doing across site, but mainly in there. You know about the ice creams? 

Kelly Molson: I know about the ice cream. Tell us. 

Ian McAllister: So there's three flavours. I mean, you've got a vanilla, but then you've got the other obvious choices. You've got Troll Snot ice cream and you've got fairy dust ice cream. So fairy dust is like a raspberry ripple with popping candy. And Troll Snot is pure bright green, but it's sour apple, which sounds vile, but it's actually really nice. But I've got pictures of him with a hair net at the ice cream facility, which I keep telling him should be his next Tinder profile. He's got so involved in it, he's been instrumental in the whole thing. I don't think we'd be anywhere near where we are now without Matthew. 

Kelly Molson: Oh, wow. Well, that is a massive compliment to Matthew in itself, isn't it? No, he's a great guy. And I think it's something that sometimes gets a bit overlooked when it comes to shop. And you often go to places and you see the same things. Exit through the gift shop, you see the same things, and it genuinely just feels like, and I can only say this from the photos, but it just feels like you're stepping into such a magical world as an extension of the magical world that you've just come out of. 

Ian McAllister: It really is. It's surreal because on Press Day, we had a launch day a couple of weeks ago, it was so hot. It was a beautiful day. I clearly have the sunglasses on all day, caught a nice tan. Apart from the work stuff, it was a really nice day. But then you do, you exit into the shop and it's like you've already sudden fast forwarded six months and you're in the middle of Christmas. There's Christmas trees and candy canes and balls, not to mention the ridiculous amount of old fashioned sweet jars with trolls fingers and different fudges. And it is surreal because then you've had this 20 minutes Christmas experience in the shop and then you're back into 24 degree heat again. It's bizarre. 

Kelly Molson: You opened on was it the 25th of May? Is that your opening day? 

Ian McAllister: Yeah. So a couple of days before half term, were supposed to have a lot more testing than we had, but because of construction issues, we ended up with two testing days. We were supposed to have at least a month or two months testing, but we had to literally do it all in two days. So we opened a VIP date and then we opened for the public on the Thursday. We would never have predicted this, the Thursday Friday, and then the full half term, every single slot was sold out to the point where after a couple of days, we made a judgment call to up capacity and then we upped it again. And it's been full, absolutely full. 

Kelly Molson: And have you kept that capacity as well? 

Ian McAllister: Because I think we didn't want the risk of opening, saying, right, we're going to get 800 kids in per session, and then all of a sudden there's 800 people trying to go down a slide. So we didn't want to ruin the visitors experience with queues and with too many people and crowds and this and the other. So we opened with 300 capacity, which was, I mean, once 300 people are on the play structure, you kind of see it. It's like you can't hear them, you can't see them, they've just vanished like ants. So we upped it to five and we're looking at up in it again to, I think, 750. We're going to maybe try and push it up to for some holidays. 

Kelly Molson: Gosh, that's incredible. So safe to say that it's been a successful launch, then. 

Ian McAllister: You know what, we couldn't have asked for more. We've had the weather, we've had the publicity. Everything has been going so well. It's been a really positive experience. It was touch and go for a bit where we're all sort of walking around a few days before launch. S***, there's a bump there. There's a thing here. And the construction team, I've never seen anyone react like it like the lighting team would pretty much work until 04:00 in the morning. So they'd work all day. But then they'd want to test their lights so they'd have to wait until it got dark. But then they'd work all night till 04:00 the next morning, go home for a few hours kip and then come back again. 

Ian McAllister: And we've got a big thank you party tonight at Lilidorei to thank all of the staff, volunteers and construction team for everything they've done to a few hundred people coming tonight. And it's been overwhelming how everybody's got involved, even contractors that might be there for a week doing something. It's been almost like a pride project for them. 

Kelly Molson: It's amazing. Well, but that shines through in what you've created, right? Everybody that's touched it has taken some kind of ownership of it. What a lovely thing to do. Just throw the party as well to say thank you. It's June now. The story behind Lilidorei obviously involves Christmas. I'm really intrigued as to what you might have planned for Christmas. Are you allowed to talk about any of that yet or is it embargoed? 

Ian McAllister: I can talk about it a little bit because I've seen it. So we had a sneak peek. So for the last two years, we've been followed around by MGM who have been filming the documentary for Channel Four. So Channel Four documentary goes out, I think, August. So there's a six part Saturday night documentary going out all about the Duchess. It's called The Duchess, but it's all about her leading up to this project. So their last filming day was VIP press day. 

Kelly Molson: Wow. 

Ian McAllister: About three days before that, we had a preview one night at 10:00. We would like to go onto site to get a preview of Christmas. I don't even think I can come up with the words. And I'm quite good with words. I can't even put together a sentence that explains quite how magical it is. It's just the lights, the sounds, the atmosphere. And this was a summer's night at 10:00, so I can't even think what it would be like when it is actually Christmas. And we've got three Santa's grottos. To talk, you kind of back a little bit.  

Ian McAllister: You've probably seen the picture of the big Lilidorei entrance gate. So when you get to the gate, you've got sounds. You've got a troll talking to a pixie and who wants pixie, wants to let us in and the troll won't let her. So you stand there and you can hear this immersive sound and they won't open the gate. So what you have to do is kind of find a way around and go through a hidden tunnel. At Christmas, those gates will open and it's like, all of a sudden, Christmas is there. So you come in, every Christmas tree is going to be lit, and bear in mind, we've got 1400 Christmas trees. Every Christmas trees got fairy lights in. The atmosphere was just phenomenal. It sounds like a cop out, but it's got to be seen to believed. 

Kelly Molson: Well, I look forward to that, because that sounds right up my street. 

Ian McAllister: You know, you're welcome. You're more than welcome. I'll even treat you to some troll snot ice cream. 

Kelly Molson: How could I possibly say no to that? 

Ian McAllister: It's the Essex charm, isn't it? 

Kelly Molson: Just wins me over every time Ian, thank you for coming on. So we always ask our guests to recommend a book at the end of a podcast. What have you got for us today? 

Ian McAllister: And it was post, COVID I read it and someone had recommended it. So I went and bought a copy and it's got to the point now where I've probably funded about 90% of the book sales because I'll keep buying copies and saying to someone, you love this, I've given them a copy and it's The Midnight Library by Matt Haig. Have you read it? 

Kelly Molson: Yeah. Great book. 

Ian McAllister: For me, I think I am where I am now and my career path, my life path, everything was based on decisions and sometimes it's easy to sit and think, that's a bad decision. If I hadn't made that decision, I'd be much happier now. And The Midnight Library, for anyone who hasn't read it, is all about going back and retrospectively looking at your decisions that you've made in life and you get a glimpse of where that decision took you. And I think for me, what it did was instead of me constantly going back, not depressed or anything, but you kind of sit and dwell sometimes instead of thinking well. 

Ian McAllister: So, for example, I nearly joined the RAF when I was 17 and I wanted to be military police, but because I've got terrible eyesight, they said, well, we can't give you a gun because you probably shoot the wrong person. So they offered me dentistry. So, looking at the time, I was typical Essex. Toys were out, the pram, I'm not doing this, I don't want to do it. So I went to uni and did all that stuff. But I often think back, I think, you know what? If I'd have gone in the RFN and had paid to train me as a dentist and I've done the service, I could have come out and sat me in dental practice and this, that and the other.

Ian McAllister: And I often think, would I be happier had I done that and done that as a career path and been a professional, if you like, because I still don't consider myself a professional. But then this book almost made me reframe that a little bit and think, you know what, I might not have done that. I might have hated it or something else would have changed and I wouldn't have had my beautiful children, I'm a stupid dog, or wouldn't have any of that sort of stuff now if I'd have taken that career path. So in a nutshell, for me, The Midnight Library is a really good read. It's quite an easy read, I found, because I was really invested in it, but it made me reframe a little bit. 

Kelly Molson: Yeah, it's a great book. I've read it a couple of times now and similar to you, it's made me look back at not so much choices but events that have happened to us. Me and my partner, we've had a load of people this is quite public knowledge, we've had a load of trouble having children and we lost quite a few along the way and multiple rounds of IVF and all of that malarkey. And I think that book made me reflect on some of those things that had happened because you start to question, am I a bad person here? Or like, why are these things happening to us? We're good people, what's wrong? 

Kelly Molson: But some of those things that have happened regardless, despite them being really difficult and quite awful, they've led you to other things that are magic and they've given you gifts of something really tragic happened. Has been able to give us the gift of being able to talk about it openly, which has then gone on and helped other people be able to talk about it or share how they are or just given someone found them, someone that they can talk to. And I think you have to just kind of look back at those things and I don't know, it's a long winded way of saying I completely agree with you and it's a really good book. If you're feeling a bit reflective about your life, it's definitely one to go and have a read of. So yeah, good read. 

Ian McAllister: I think it may me kind of start to think about the ways I've handled things and how I sort of shape things moving forward so that my best friend died when were at college and my nephew died when he was eight. And all these things in your life that at the time are the worst thing that could ever possibly happen and you could either go one way or the other and it almost explained or kind of put into context a little bit. I think that these things happen not necessarily for a reason, but the way that you cope with it and deal with it and move on after it. That's almost like the learning that you take from it. But this is a different podcast altogether. This is like a griefcast, so we'll do another one. 

Kelly Molson: This has ended on a complete opposite spectrum than it started, Ian. Anyway, listeners, if you want to win a copy of that book, I'd highly recommend you go and do this. So go over to this podcast announcement and retweet it with the words I want Ian's book. And you will be put into the draw to win a copy of The Midnight Garden. 

Kelly Molson: Midnight Garden? Midnight Library. Midnight Garden is a whole different book, kids book Midnight Library.

Kelly Molson: Ian, thanks for coming on today. It's been brilliant to chat to you. We will put all of the information about Lilidorei and Alnwick Gardens into the show notes so you can have a little look for yourself. But those tickets for Christmas are going to sell out quickly, people, so get yourself on the mailing list. That's all I'm going to say. 

Ian McAllister: Thank you, Kelly. It's been so nice to talk to you. Living this far north, it's nice to establish my roots with an Essex person again. 

Kelly Molson: Well, always welcome. Six months check in, right?

Ian McAllister: Thanks, Kelly.  

Kelly Molson: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned. 

Skip The Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website, rubbercheese.com/podcast.

Download The Visitor Attractions Website Survey Report - https://www.merac.co.uk/download-the-visitor-attractions-survey

We have launched our brand-new playbook: ‘The Retail Ready Guide to Going Beyond the Gift Shop’ — your go-to resource for building a successful e-commerce strategy that connects with your audience and drives sustainable growth.

Download your FREE copy here

Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is  Kelly Molson, Founder of Rubber Cheese.

Download the Rubber Cheese 2022 Visitor Attraction Website Report - the first digital benchmark statistics for the attractions sector.

If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website rubbercheese.com/podcast.

If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this podcast

Competition ends July 31st 2023. The winner will be contacted via Twitter.

Show references:

Playbook page: https://navigate.agency/blog/attraction-marketing-visitor-growth-playbook/

Homepage: https://navigate.agency/

Work: https://navigate.agency/work/

Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/company/navigate-agency/

Ant's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/anthonyrawlins/

Anthony Rawlins | CEO Navigate Agency - founded Navigate to help tourism businesses enhance their digital marketing and attract wider audiences locally and internationally. For over 20 years, he has worked across all travel and tourism industry segments for leading global brands worldwide.

At Navigate, Anthony ensures the company is at the leading edge of industry insights and trends and drives innovation and business strategy to continue delivering best-in-class growth for their clients.

Transcriptions:

Kelly Molson: Welcome to Skip The Queue, a podcast for people working in or working with visitor attractions. 

In today's episode I speak with Ant Rawlins, CEO of Navigate Agency - the marketing agency for the tourism and conservation sectors.

We discuss how to position your attraction as essential, the number 1 thing all attraction marketers need to focus on this year and, a podcast exclusive. Ant shares an exciting new initiative with us, listen out for Wildling.

If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue. 

Kelly Molson: Ant it is so nice to have you on the podcast today. I have to say, I'm so delighted that you're on because you are genuinely one of my favourite speakers to listen to. So I'm thrilled that you're on today, and I know this is gonna be a really exciting conversation. 

Ant Rawlins: No pressure then. 

Kelly Molson: Absolutely not. I always like to start with a little bit of pressure on. And that takes us very nicely to our icebreaker questions. So when you were 6, what did you want to be when you grew up? 

Ant Rawlins: When I was 6, it was probably pretty cliche. An archaeologist or a fighter pilot. I probably say a fighter pilot more. 

Kelly Molson: Is this Top Gun? 

Ant Rawlins: It is tTop Gun. And I'm pretty sure top gun was released when I was 6, and my brother then went into the REF. So I kinda wanted to be my brother and a fire pilot. But, you know, there you go.

Kelly Molson: He got there first, basically. 

Ant Rawlins: He did. He did. 

Kelly Molson: Actually, archaeology, so that's really interesting because it does kind of fit with some of the that you've done, doesn't it? In a holistic kind of way. We'll talk about that a little bit more later. Okay. If you could be in the Guinness World of Records, what record breaking feet would you attempt? 

Ant Rawlins: That's really mean. I have no idea what that would be. I don't think that I'm gonna be in the Guinness book record. I've never allowed myself to entertain that. 

Kelly Molson: Do you have, like, a weird talent? 

Ant Rawlins: Not really that we can broadcast. So this is gonna sound really silly. It would be best dad. 

Kelly Molson: Oh. 

Ant Rawlins: I'm not necessarily convinced by that, but there you go. We'll see.  

Kelly Molson: Tough critics around, I'm gonna say. Okay. Interesting. Thank you. And if you could have 1 extra hour of free time every day, what would you use it for? 

Ant Rawlins: Reading. It would be reading because I really do not enjoy reading at all. I can't stand it. So I would force myself to do that. 

Kelly Molson: That was unexpected. I thought you were gonna tell me that you're a bit of a bookworm, but you do consume knowledge. I know that you consume knowledge because you're incredibly knowledgeable, especially at the top that we talk about today. How do you consume it? Are you more of a podcast? Do you want more audio? 

Ant Rawlins: Very much audio. Again, I don't enjoy reading, but I read a lot. I just find it really challenging medium through which to get information. It's very one dimensional. Whereas, actually, if you can show me documentary, I'll get a lot more info from that, but that's a huge debate. Right? So. 

Kelly Molson: Yeah. That's really interesting. So it's a really good answer to the question, and it would be my answer as well because I don't get time to read. Reading for me is a way of going off into a different world. Whether that's reading something historical or reading something fictional, it just takes me away to a different place for a while, and I've kinda lost that. My time has been sucked up with toddler, so I've kind of lost that a little bit. So that would be a nice time to go on in a bit.

Ant Rawlins: Do you know honestly, as I said, I don't like reading, and I absolutely never read fiction. It's always non fiction. It's always work, it's always research papers or documents or business books or how to be a CEO and not throw yourself off a bridge, that kind of stuff. I rather than a lovely story.  I mean, I hit previously, but Wilbur Smith and Barry, stuff like that, but I'd start at the time. So that's what I would do with my hour, Kelly. 

Kelly Molson: Good answer. Good answer. Thank you for sharing. Right, unpopular opinion, what have you prepared for us? 

Ant Rawlins: Email, either test email as well. This is not going to be a negative as it sounds. We're getting it out of the way now.  We will be super positive going forward but I hate email. And I was thinking about this, obviously, running a strategic digital marketing agency. That's professional suicide saying you hate email to a certain degree. But I do hate it because it's a terrible thing. It delivers great results. But imagine your email be a letter box.   And through this letter box, you get information from the government, information from healthcare providers, tax information, essential business correspondence. But also, those t shirts that you don't want, these pair of shoes. I've inherited a lot of different pots of money from foreign countries where I just need to provide my account details. And they will release 10 percent of the £45,000,000 to me. Your email, as the collater of all of this, how do you escape today? Crazy. We need a better system. 

Kelly Molson: You're right. You are right. I don't think this is gong to be a massively unpopular opinion. If I'm honest. I think you've hit the nail on the head there. I actually know an agency owner. Sorry, he's an agency founder and now runs an agency kind of collective support network. He just doesn't use email at all anymore. He's posted it down it. Just not it just doesn't communicate by it. He’d rather use WhatsApp or Slack or those kind of channels for it. And I think it's so hard, isn't it? Because it's like a necessary evil. Yeah. But the time that it saps away from you is just. 

Ant Rawlins: I know. And there's loads of productivity hats. You can activate around it, but, you know, goodness me. It's best not to do that. Yeah. And and I do apologise for being pretty tame. But, I had about a 1000 things for you, and I wasn't allowed to say any of them. One of them has my wife. Yeah. You can't say that. You can't say that. So there we go. 

Kelly Molson: We'll discussed those ones off air. 

Ant Rawlins: Definitely. 

Kelly Molson: Okay. Right. Founder of Navigate, Tourism And Conservation Marketing Agency, fabulous agency. Lots of wonderful things that you do for your clients. What brought you to the world of attractions, tourism, and conservation? How did you end up here? 

Ant Rawlins: So I studied biology at Bristol. And fairly quickly, during my degree, I realised there was no way in the planet I wanted to be a biologist. Because fundamentally, my life would be spent staring down a microscope looking at, I don't know, either sperm or stool samples, which is where a lot of biology originates or comes to at the end. So I kind of thought, “Yeah. I'm not gonna do that with my time”. So I kind of I've always been interested in in, generally, in science, I've got quite a strong science background at all my levels of science than, obviously, a science degree of Bristol. The master's in science at Bristol as well. But I kind of thought I wanted to do something on my own and and see how I could do. 

Ant Rawlins: And I just decided to set up a business straight out of university. I'll add a disclaimer here because I often get labeled with this being a very brave decision. It wasn't a brave decision. It was purely a logical decision. I had no money. So I have nothing to lose. Sucks. So you just go for it. What's the worst that could happen to me? Add a little bit more debt to the burgeoning student debt I had anyway. So, yeah, set up the company and off you go. It started in a different iteration. But, fortunately, as I've learned more about business and people, I've been able to direct that to the things that matter to me. And here we are now, tourism and conservation. 

Kelly Molson: The things that matter. It's really interesting that you set up. I didn't realise that you'd set up so early on in your career, actually. And I just come from a conversation about a very similar topic. We set up our agency when we were about 24. I've worked in various different places prior to that. I never really found anywhere that I settled. But it's exactly the same thing. There was no risk then. It was “Okay. Well, I need to earn enough money to pay my phone, put some petrol in my car, pay my monthly rent”. That's it. It's not a brave decision. It's like, I don't have any there's just nothing to lose here, so I may as well just give it a go. It's a really empowering place to because now if I was thinking about doing it again. There's a lot more risk. A lot more overhead. 

Ant Rawlins: It's terrifying. It's terrifying now. Those are the brave people. The ones that have responsibilities and financial commitments and go, “Do you know what? I've known this way of life for this amount of time. I'm gonna stop that. I'm gonna give it a go”. I predicted I would not have the courage to do that 10 years down the line. So I thought, “Oh, I'm just gonna do it now”. 

Kelly Molson: I love that. Well, I'm glad that you did because it's brought you to where we are today. And I wanna talk a little bit about where we are today. So just from the attractions perspective, it's been a bit of a weird year, hasn't it? 2023, I think. The last few years, a bit weird. Let's face it. They have kind of, a massive whammy throughout the pandemic. Can be open one minute, can't be open the next minute, restrictions, all kinds of stuff going on. And then come through all of that and are smashed in the face with economic chaos, cost of living crisis, war in Ukraine, not really understanding whether visitors are gonna be able to afford to come to them this year. 

Kelly Molson: And so it feels a little bit like everyone's been steering headlights and going, “We just we really don't know what to do. We're absolutely exhausted from the last 2 years. We don't know what to do”, and we know that visits are about 80 or 90 percent of pre pandemic levels. What's your take on where we're at the moment of where things are going? 

Ant Rawlins: I think your analysis is spot on. That is where we are. It's challenging times. We are finding organisations are taking longer to make decisions because they're cautious naturally. I'm also finding that there's a bit of a reticence to invest in kind of marketing and revenue generation. From the point of view of almost thinking, “Well, it's not gonna be great this year. So let us not spend budget on not having a great year”. It's quite upside down thinking, in my opinion. But that is what's happening. And I know this because I I speak with clients very openly and honestly. We work with quite a few businesses that we feel the responsibility to turn their fortunes around. The the organisations I love working more than anything or where they've got a big problem, a seriously big problem. 

Ant Rawlins: So a number of our clients last year or the year before might have had to make redundancies. Serious stuff, reduction in headcount, reduction in visitor numbers as we know it's been happening. And they just wanna get back to the levels they were or even just ride the ship so we get involved and we help them do that. And I'm proud feel a very profound sense of pride when we do that. And we do it. We're serious about doing that, and I love it. 

Kelly Molson: You do it really well as well. So, some of your attraction plants are really bucking this trend, and that's kind of what we're gonna focus on today along with something very exciting, which is coming later. But I wanna kinda talk about strategies and methodologies that attractions can implement right now to increase their marketing success. I think this is what they want to hear about. But can you kinda set the scene for us? So what are some of your clients achieving in terms of visitor numbers and revenue? Because you've got some really impressive stats around that. 

Ant Rawlins: Yeah. So I'd like to think that, our clients are kind of booking a trend looking at some of them are 10 to 15% above pre pandemic levels. Some of them are at pre pandemic levels. But then, again, some of them are below because we've just got them on board, and our job is to convert them and increase them back to where they were or beyond. And our aim is always, let's take them beyond where they were. So yeah, whenever I sit down with a client, I always look at what their targets are, then I set my own internal target of usually 10 to 15% above that. And say and Navigate, we craft the strategy to overdeliver so that, classic aim for the moon at least you'll land amongst the star strategy.

Ant Rawlins: If we aim big, do a good work there, then it massively mitigates the risk that you're not gonna hit the target. But invariably, we go beyond it and it works. And what I do find fascinating at the moment is we're kind of feeling that because of the lack of impetus behind rolling out big marketing campaigns and investing in marketing because people are being very conservative with budgets. That does mean the people that we're working for, they're flying. So they're growing well because, actually, if people are holding back and we're going all in, then they're not constantly getting the visitor numbers and of revenue. It's just, stats, isn't it? It's just gonna be the case. We make more noise people see our clients more, they visit them more. 

Kelly Molson: That sounds really simple. When you say it and budgeted for. 

Ant Rawlins: I know. I know. 

Kelly Molson: The listeners that listen to this podcast are at all different sizes. So attractions of all sizes. And Some of them may be at those lower levels right now and starting to be, slightly concerned about what summer may bring or may not bring. What would be your advice to attraction marketers that is kind of struggling to focus on what the priority should be right now? 

Ant Rawlins: Yeah. That's a good question. So this isn't rocket science at all. It's quite straightforward. The very first thing attraction marketers could should do is ultimately just deliver really good digital advertising. It's the most straight line method for visitors. It really is. When I say digital marketing, yeah it's digital advertising activity. That needs to be good. It should be the best. It is the creme de la creme marketing activities that can be done with immediate impact. That's completely measurable and transparent for me. It doesn't really make sense to invest budget anywhere else. Even projects that I work on independently at Navigate my own initiatives or innovations as, we might talk about it later, we would only do digital on that. Why would we ever think of anything else? There's just simply no requirement, and we can't track it. We can't measure it. We can't optimise. 

Ant Rawlins: So the very first thing any attraction should do is what are they doing on digital and just do that more and do it better. And yet, despite the pandemic, believe or not, I still speak to some attractions that direct 80% of their marketing budget towards traditional marketing print leaflet, bus shelters, this and the other. 

Kelly Molson: Wow. 

Ant Rawlins: And I just I can't rationalise it in my head. I don't understand. It does not compute. 

Kelly Molson: That's a huge percentage. That's really surprising. I mean, I can understand some of their budget going towards it, but, you know, 20%, not 80%. 

Ant Rawlins: Yeah. And so when you were talking about, the growth in visitor numbers that we're delivering for a lot of clients, it's because we charge into executing a digital advertising and marketing strategy immediately and it has immediate effects. Literally month long. It's so, yeah, that's what I would do. And it doesn't matter what size you are. Because I would say if you're above 50,000, then you can implement what I'm talking about to the scale that it's required. If you are a 100,000, then 100,000 business plan and then it's viable. Anything above that, you have got the visitor numbers and the marketing investment and resource to deliver a highly effective activity that will give you the visitor numbers you want. 

Kelly Molson: There's something else that you've been talking about quite a lot recently, which I am a big fan of. I've quoted elements of this blog piece in numerous talks and numerous pieces online. It's about positioning and attraction as essential. 

Ant Rawlins: Right. Yeah. 

Kelly Molson: You spoke about it brilliantly at the ALVA heads of marketing meeting back prior to December. And it was perfectly timed because at that point, attraction marketeers, we knew we're looking at maybe a 15 to 20% cut in their budgets this year because of the cost of living crisis and having to look at kind of smarter ways to use their budget and smarter ways to talk about why their attraction is somewhere that people should, people need to visit, not just want to visit. Can you talk us through a couple of those pointers from that blog piece because I just think it's so invaluable to our listeners to hear about this. 

Ant Rawlins: Sure. So yeah, this came about actually and credit where credit's due, Richard Huntington, who's a strategy director -- Sachi and Sachi, the first put this forward when I was presenting at an event with him. And we spoke about this, and he suggested that attractions need to position themselves as essential. So all I did was, write on his coattails and say, “Alright. Well, this is how attractions do position themselves as essential”. So we come up with a various ways of saying, “This is how you should communicate in order to position yourself as essential”. And if you permit me to rewind for a moment, the reason we need to position an attraction as essential is because when reviewing the likely economic impact of the cost of living crisis on visitors, individuals, pockets. 

Ant Rawlins: They're ultimately gonna be putting everything apart from essential activities. This was the theory 6 months ago when we were talking about this. And, to a certain degree, we have seen this. So that's why we need to be essential because it's almost the only ring fence budget in a consumer's pocket where they go, “Okay, that's essential. I'm not giving that up.” How does an attraction do this? How does it position itself as essential? And there's a number of different ways of doing it. As you've said, you can look at the blog that we created for it. And it's really interesting. 

Ant Rawlins: I think one of the nice ways of maybe picking one good strategy of this apart is making memories. Because our friend Bernard Donoghue at ALVA regularly highlights that attractions are so important because they are these places that create memories. They create moments with people. And I absolutely agree with Bernard, of course. But what I think converts a memory to something essential is time. As a grandparent, it's not about you as a grandparent, not being there forever. It's about as a grandparent, those kids aren't gonna be little kids forever. They're gonna be, horrible moody grumpy smelly teenagers before you know it. Apologies to any teenagers listening to me. I'm sure you are not all like that. I certainly wasn't when I was a teenager. You've gotta just look at it a slightly different way. 

Ant Rawlins: And it's essential, therefore, for the grandparent to spend time with that little four year old, because she's not gonna be four next year. She's not gonna be 4 in a few years' time. Don't worry about where you are. So, surely, a day out and a memory with a grandkid at the age of four. That's such a different experience at a kid age seven because I've got both, which is so different again from a kid age nine because I've got one of them too. And, it's kinda like memories are memories at different times as well. And at this timing that you're happy, you know, you really need to try and leverage that. And if you can do that, then, yeah, it's essential, isn't it? You wanna spend time with them young.

Kelly Molson: That's the one that really hit home for me, actually. So I have a young daughter, she's just coming up for 2. My parents, we've had her a lot later in life. Her grandparents are a little bit older, so they're 71 this year. And they feel this. So they feel that they have got a set amount of time to make and form those memories with that little girl. They're already planning. She's not even 2 yet. They've already said to me, “By the time she's 5, we're going to Disney. This is what's happening, we're going here. We're gonna make this big memory because we need to do that”. My dad needs to do that before he's 80. So I can't do it any later than that. 

Kelly Molson: So, they've got this time limit on these things. The other thing that really struck me about that blog was how you position what things cost. So there was an element in there about making comparisons between everyday things and what you'd actually spend on an attraction. So I made a comparison between paying I think it was something like £7 to park all day. This absolutely incredible attraction has the most fantastic kids play area and family area to make all of these wonderful memories. Take your kids' bike there, teach them to ride. 7 quid is 2 flat whites. Save yourself 2 flat whites a week, and you can go and do this amazing thing. And I thought that was a really strong message to push out for attractions. 

Ant Rawlins: Yeah. I think that we've gotta get across a value message. Again, as everybody's talking about this, I think that the marketing speak that you'll hear me say, it's not new stuff for anybody I imagine that listens to this because everybody that listens to this is good at, it is good at marketing. They've got a sense of the understanding of the principles and the concept here. So showing demonstrating value for an attraction visit is essential, and a lot of attractions. Not all, by the way, but a lot of attractions do deliver fantastic value. And so you really need to kinda leverage that because, yeah, we spend a lot more money on a lot less stuff than memories than these moments and these shared experiences. 

Kelly Molson: We do. And we need we need a good reminder of where our money's being spent and where it's important. 

Ant Rawlins: Yeah. And, again, I think there was a really good output around this. It's like, buy memory is not stuff kind of thing. It was really good. Yeah. 

Kelly Molson: Okay. Number one thing that all attraction marketers need to focus on for 2023. 

Ant Rawlins: Yes. So I've been thinking about how to kind of, distill this into one thing for you. And I believe it is to generate revenue digitally. Three words. Bear with me on this whilst I unpick it a little bit. We gotta generate revenue digitally. Now that actually covers a lot of different things. First of all, it covers digital marketing. Investing in digital to drive visitors, donations, memberships, whatever you want. That will help you generate revenue digitally. But more than that, your online shop and ecommerce growing revenue from that, which many people became pretty good at during the pandemic. That's generating revenue digitally. You can sell digital products. Many membership programs from organisations, might be a magazine which will probably immediately go into the recycling. What about digital product, so you can develop these digital products that will be essential. 

Ant Rawlins: That is, again, generating revenue digitally. Coupled with this, generating revenue is also kinda growing profits. Because you can actually deliver a lot of your functions now with technology in a really good way. We know how stretched attractions marketing departments are, how much work attractions marketers actually do on a daily basis, creating content here, coming up with a strategy there, firefight in this, solving that problem over there. It's crazy. When I look at the volume of work that attractions marketers do, it is massive. That there aren't any coasters in this industry that'll be working really hard. And they need to use technology to make their jobs easier or not even make their jobs easier so they can elevate the work they do rather than scrambling around doing a little bit here or a little bit there. 

Ant Rawlins: We should be using ChatGPT to create attractions marketing content continually for our attraction. We should be using really good email automation to solve that. And there's so much good tech out there that this will save you money and, again, grow profits, which is generating revenue for you. Finally, as part of all of this, all these bits because they're all digital, and it's all tech. They should all connect. You should be able to track. You should be able to look at this digital ecosystem you created and understand how it into links and then how you can optimise that conversion. And, again, some of the bigger conversations we're having with, the some leading kind of attractions in the UK are very much about. “Right, we've got this area that's doing this digitally. We've got this digital activity pulling this in here. We've got an opportunity to increase efficiency by implementing some tech here. How does this all work together?” 

Ant Rawlins: And and that's exciting. That's what we should do. And that is probably very daunting for smaller attractions, and that doesn't matter. It's daunting. Yeah. And you have to face it head on because it is only going in that direction. I guarantee it. And you will not be here in 5 or 10 years if you do not do this. It's that simple. It's inevitable to quote Agent Smith. 

Kelly Molson: However, however scary it might seem. It's okay because Navigate just launched something that is actually gonna help the attraction marketers perfectly with this, which is your attraction marketing playbook. 

Ant Rawlins: I was not expecting your segue way there. And the thing that's quite interesting about that, I wasn't expecting it. So I thought you're gonna disagree with me, which I was getting well excited about. Okay. Let's do it out em up, Kelly. 

Kelly Molson: Let's do this. No, I absolutely agree with this. I think you've nailed that advice there, but I think what you said about it being a really daunting task. I think it can actually be daunting for larger attractions as well, actually, because let's face it, marketing teams are small. Regardless of the size of agencies, they are really small, and they wear lots of hats, and they juggle a lot of different things. 

Ant Rawlins: Yeah. They're small and also the industry well, not the industry. Our society doesn't have the digital skills and capabilities that are required to capitalise on the technology we currently have. They're they're not available. We've not trained these people yet. And those people that do have those skills are incredibly short supplied comparatively. I was at the app to travel marketing conference last week and there's this company that specialises in travel recruitment called Gail Kenny. And I've kind of known him a bit there. They're good, and they gave a really decent analysis of this digital skills gap. And I just say, yeah. There's a huge issue. Anybody in digital marketing, digital advertising, CRO, CRM. All of these skills are just in desperate need across the industry. We just don't have the candidates. 

Ant Rawlins: We don't have people doing this because they're all taken. So it's a skills issue as well, which makes it really daunting because there are other people with that knowledge. But you're right. That's I suppose that's why we kind of created the Visitor Attraction Growth playbook in that, it's a decent sized document, you know, 50 or 60 page is that really just breaks down the kind of 5 or 6 core activities you should be looking at to grow your visitors and revenue this year. And, yeah, we've literally just said all the things we think you need to do. 

Kelly Molson: It's a lovely playbook, actually. And it's a really good thing just kinda take you away for an hour or so. Just kinda work your way through, work on it, put your plan together, but then come back and revisit as well. We're gonna put a link to this in show notes. So anyone listening, don't worry. You don't need to go and find it. Literally, just go to the show notes, and you'll be able to download it for there. Because, actually, it’s free to download for anyone for a period of time, isn't it?  Which is lovely. Very generous. 

Ant Rawlins: Oh, well, it is very generous. I had a battle with my marketing manager about this. And he's like, “No, Ant. We're not even gonna email gate. And I'm like, “What do you mean we're not even gonna email gate?” “Well, no. We're not. We're just we're not on a website. Click download done. I might well, hi, mate, your call.” So there we go. 

Kelly Molson: Lovely, lovely good people, you. 

Ant Rawlins: Don't thank me. Thanks Olly, the Head of marketing. It's him. It's not me. 

Kelly Molson: Thanks, Olly. You are a lovely person, actually. 

Ant Rawlins: He is. It's very easy. 

Kelly Molson: But talking about lovelyness, let's talk a little bit about Navigate as an agency because you have got a really good ethos in the way that you grow your agency, the way that you hire, the way that you just the way that you run your organisation. And that kinda comes through really beautifully in the fact that you've recently gained B Corp status. 

Ant Rawlins: Yeah. 

Kelly Molson: Just give us a little bit of a snippet of what B Corp means for our listeners that aren't aware of what this is. 

Ant Rawlins: B Corp is ultimately a movement of businesses that have kind of agreed that the nature of doing business needs to better. And, therefore, we assign certain standards on ourselves in doing that business. So, for example, we have to have specific environmental policies. We have to show improvement in that. We have to have certain culture. We have to have a certain mentality towards our team and treat our team in a certain way. It's governance, it's environmental impact, it's social impact, and it's rigorous. It takes 2 years to become a B Corp. And we literally got it a few weeks ago. And, yeah, it's great to be one. I mean, if you look at some of the, I wouldn't say, coolest, but I think they're cool. 

Ant Rawlins: Because that's what I think cool is being successful and being good for me. That's cool. So if you look at them serious brands, people like Patagonia and what have you. The kind of, the darlings of a good business, invariably, you'll find that a lot of them are B corps or on that journey. And I I'm very proud of of being a B corp, and at the same time, it's not an external thing for me. I think quite a few people use it as a “Oh, we're the B corp, so buy something from us”. That I mean, that's a bit ridiculous in my opinion. I think that it's about saying, “Well, listen. Going forwards, business needs to do better. It needs to better. It needs to hold itself the highest standards”. 

Ant Rawlins: There are multiple ways businesses can be profitable and make money. And all I'm saying is on top of that, you need to apply being good with it. And I think it's one of the fundamental requirements we have to impose on ourselves because we won't have a planet in about 200 years time if we don't. I mean, we will have a planet. We just probably won't be very happy on it, and it won't be very happy. 

Kelly Molson: I know this is, I mean, you've talked about it from a business perspective, but I know that this is a bit of a passion area as well, especially around kind of sustainability and being outdoors in nature. And, actually, I mean, I'll put this on the in the show notes, but Ant sent me, he emailed me a picture. He emailed it to me. So he doesn't hate email, really. He emailed me this wonderful picture of himself this week out on a walk whilst listening to the podcast. 

Ant Rawlins: Don’t share that.

Kelly Molson: It was such a great photo. Okay. I might share this photo. I'll put it Twitter. It was a fabulous photo where it's outside in nature. But, look, this is you. Like, you are what you talk about. It's you personified. Everything that you love is all around nature and being outside and being connected to the environment and being sustainable, and that really does across in the way that you run Navigate, also the personal projects that you have. Now you mentioned earlier that you have your own kind of innovative projects on the go. You've got something quite exciting to talk to us about today, which is a podcast exclusive, people. He's not talked about this anywhere, and Ant talks a lot. He really does. This is a new thing. He's not discussed this with anyone. So I wanna hear about it. 

Ant Rawlins: Well, I have discussed it with a few people. It's not been broadcast, Kelly. Just actually, some of the people listening to this podcast, I know who they are, and I know them. And you know them, and we know them. And, actually, they’re gonna be like, “Wait a minute. He spoke to me about that.” So I've got the caveat. Some people know. Okay. But, no, it's not been announced on the industry yet. It's not been broadcast. We've not launched it yet. Yeah, it's exciting. As you can tell, it already started increasing the speed of my conversation. So, yeah, do you what did you want to just dive in? 

Kelly Molson: I wanted to dive in because I say that I didn't know about this prior to this conversation, and I'm really excited about it. This is something that I am gonna use. And I'll tell you what, I'm gonna use it daily. So I'm really excited about it. I need you to share it with the podcast. 

Ant Rawlins: Alright. You're so kind. Okay. So, yeah, we've created what we think is quite a disruptive business for the industry. And when I say disruptive, well, yeah, in a really, really positive way. I consider it a conservation technology business is how I see in my head is what it is. And in its simplest form, it's a mobile app. What we've done with our app Wildling is we've created an app that collates all of the UK's great nature places in one format, in one place. And we geolocated that information so that you, Kelly, can go to this app on a Saturday morning when it's a lovely day or not a lovely day, whatever because nature's ready, whatever the weather. You can go to the app. You go, “What am I gonna do today?”

Ant Rawlins: And you can look at it and it'll geolocate all the nature places that you can go and visit near you. It gives you the facility's information, the visitor information that you'd need, the opening times, gives you directions, and then there's more. So in the first instance, It's a free to download app. We want everybody in the UK using this. We want it downloaded everywhere. We've got a pretty mega network of people are already gonna broadcast this when we launch. I think that the total email they size is about fifty million people so far. I'm gonna get emailed this by our part. Place. Yeah. It's a bit mad. 

Kelly Molson: But email's okay, folks. Not rubbish. 

Ant Rawlins: Yeah. It's a bit mad. Oh, and, also, I came up with this idea with Tim Smith. So Tim, who created Eden Project, it won't be here without him. You know, me and him have talked about this for 2 years. We've been working on it together. We've been speaking about it 2 years, and he's guided me a lot on where we can go with this. So, yeah, he's a legend, and he's my kind of my industry hero, really. But Yeah. So myself and team just thought it is. It's collectivising nature. It's all these great nature places you can go. And it's solving a problem that I had, Kelly. 

Ant Rawlins: 6 years ago, I moved to Dartmouth from Bristol, and I wanted to find out all these great places near me. And I had to go to about 20 different websites, and the information then was, a bit rubbish on some of them. Some of the mad images, some of them didn't, some of other visitor information. I couldn't tell. So this way, I've got my app. Wherever I am in the country, I can find nature reserves from the RSPB, English Heritage, National Trust, Forestry, England, all these great nature organisations with nature places and 20 seconds more. Our aim here is to put £1,000,000,000 into nature over the next 15 to 20 years. £1,000,000,000 into protecting native nature in this country. 

Ant Rawlins: And the way we're gonna do this is the way that it should be done because people won't care. They won't protect what they have an experience. That's Adam Brewer's line, and it's true. So we want to get them into nature. And when they're there, because they've used our app to get there. We're gonna be able to actually communicate with them given the information of that specific place that they are. But also suggest they might want to donate to help protect that place. And we can do it when they're actually in the environment or just shortly after they return. It's not, a random email on a Wednesday evening when you've not been to a forest for 3 weeks. 

Ant Rawlins: It's when you're there, when you're having that time, we're gonna be able to prompt you to tap to love nature and then send those funds out to the fantastic nature organisations that we'd be having this country to help them continue their good work. So, yeah, £1,000,000,000 15 to 20 years. That's what we wanna do. 

Kelly Molson: It's such a good idea. That's a good idea. I love it. I'm genuinely buzzing about this. So this is all of the lovely things that I like to do. And I think like, you kind of you know what's on your doorstep. But you don't know enough of what's on your doorstep. We are really lucky. We live just outside Cambridge. We've got 3 or 4 National Trust places around us that we spend a lot of time. But, also, we spend a lot of time there. Right? You're looking for new things, and you don't always know the first place to go. You might kinda know some of the bigger things that are around. We've got Bedford Forest 45 minutes that way and, I don't know, Brooksbourne Woods another 40 minutes that way. But what really is here? 

Kelly Molson: What can I do to support these brilliant things and keep them moving and keep them conserving the natural environments that were that are around us. It would be something that I genuinely would use. And I can't believe no one's done it. It's one of those ideas that you go, “Does this not exist? Wow.”

Ant Rawlins: There's a reason nobody's done it. It's because it's been a pain in the ass, if I’m honest.

Kelly Molson: A labour of love?

Ant Rawlins: Getting all the content, getting it all done. There's a reason it's not been done, and it's because it's a hell of a lot of leg work. But, you know, yeah, there's just so many beneficiaries of this that I'm really happy about, first of all, and everyday people thinking, “What can I do today, Joe?” “Alright. We'll go there. Get outside”. We know it's better for them. We know we know it makes us healthy. We know it gives us perspective. We know that, what's going on in various different parts of the world doesn't need to affect our day right now today. 

Ant Rawlins: We know we can go away and escape from it all, and it's not always Netflix and bills and this and the other, there's more to the world than it gives us perspective everyday people. But the challenge people have is always it just seems really difficult for them. When I speak with one of the organisations that we do through Wildling, it's really the interesting the number of people that will go on a day out to nature, go to a Forestry England place or a National Trust location or somewhere like that, park up in a car park, and then sometimes just stay in the car park. Or have their picnic, like, 10 meters from their car. 

The distance people go from the from the point that they actually get into these nature places is very small. Whereas me, I park in and just zoom out. I'm like, right, how far come from this car park point can I get and go and explore? But there's a fear it doesn't feel easy. It feels unnatural. This is what how ironic that being in nature feels unnatural to us. And so our app needs to do one thing. It just needs to make nature easy for people, and that's what it's doing. Yeah, as well, of course, protecting it because we'll want people to donate afterwards. 

Kelly Molson: I see. 

Ant Rawlins: But, yeah, in the final point I'll make on it, Kelly, because you know talks. I know you've got me on this one. I'm sorry. I think it's also gonna be pretty big for domestic tourism in general because you're right. On your doorstep, you can find out what it is. But do you know what, Kelly? Maybe you've always wanted to visit Norwich. Maybe you've always wanted to visit there, and you like --

Kelly Molson: One of my favourite places. 

Ant Rawlins: There you go. Yeah. I'll get an Airbnb, and then I'll use it. I cannot find all these great places around me. The fact is wherever you are in the country. You're gonna find these places are with the volume of places we have on here, you're never gonna be more than a few miles away from a really great nature place that you can go and visit. So, again, it's free. It's for everybody. Final point, I was speaking with Josh Croft, who's their CEO of UK Inbound the other week, and Josh is a great guy. And he said from an inbound tourism point of view, he thinks it's gonna be really big as well. He thinks that people coming into the UK using this app to it explore our natural environments, it would be fantastic. 

Ant Rawlins: And one of our clients actually does bring about two million people into the UK per annum. And we know from the analysis and research that we've done that some of the primary reasons, particularly when entering the northern part of the UK, is for nature. And a lot of them, heading then they head up to Scotland and around Yorkshire. But, one of the draws which I was a little bit surprised about. One of the draws of Europe near European visitors into the UK is nature and natural environments and wildlife. So, yeah, it's great for inbound tourism as well. As domestic tourism, not to mention it's making us all healthier. 

Kelly Molson: That's really interesting, isn't it? Like, having everything in one place, I hadn't thought about how useful that would be to tourists to the UK. They haven't got to slightly like you were doing, spending hours on 20 different websites trying to find all the different things around you. They literally go to one app, and it's all there. It’s genius.

Ant Rawlins: We're not we're not stopping in the UK, Kelly. I'll tell you that. 

Kelly Molson: I mean, I know this was coming.

Ant Rawlins: Yeah. Yeah. We're not stopping it because I want to use this app for me when I don't really know much about France. So I wanna get over to France. I don't wanna be able to use my app to find all the fantastic nature places that I can go and, experience there. I'm in Germany, I'm in Spain, and so on and so forth. 

Kelly Molson: What I really love about this is it's a wonderful example of you're you know, it's the combination of the passions that you have and the skill set that you have in the agency as well. And it's just it's an absolutely perfect design or what you can do to support nature, but, you know, what you can also do to help the attractions from the tourism organisations that you work with as well. So it's just brilliant. How can we find out more about it? So it's not launched yet. How do we find out more about it? How can our listeners get involved? 

Ant Rawlins: Well, I'm pretty confident that when it's launched, any people are connected to Skip the Queue podcast will probably get a lovely email from Kelly. It's here to download. So that solves our audience here. Yeah. It will be ready soon. I mean, it'll just be available on the App Store. It's called Wildling, and we're gonna be there in a few weeks. Okay. Well. 

Kelly Molson: What we'll do, we'll put a link to as soon as it's launched, we'll put a link in the show notes again. And, yeah, look, listeners, you will definitely hear from me about this. I'll be all over social media with it. Maybe email because I don't mind a bit of email, but definitely Twitter. Maybe some LinkedIn. This is brilliant. So this might be an interesting question for you because we normally end the podcast by asking our guests to recommend a book, but you don't read that much. So do you have something that you would like to share with us? Whether it's a book, a podcast, an audio book, what would you like to share with that listeners? 

Ant Rawlins: Do you know what? I will recommend a book and to end and probably just, correct the blemish on my character, Kelly. I do read a lot, but I hate it. So that's the difference. And I'm happy I'm missing it. There you go. It's it feels slightly sadistic in the end, really, reading, but there you go. The book I would recommend is called The Almanack of Naval Ravikant, and I think it's amazing. It's pulling my favourite book. 

Kelly Molson: Reason why? 

Ant Rawlins: I mean, Naval Ravikant, a bit of a legend. I mean, he is incredibly successful, but his book is really succinct short advices. It's a collection and expansion of tweets that he've created over time. And he splits the book into 50, 50, 50 percent is kind of wealth creation and all that kind of stuff. And the other 50% is happiness. And it just expands these points, but it's just so digestible. Each little nugget is “Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. We should do that. I should do that.” So so I love it. Just I don't I do not need fifty pages to tell me something when five words will do. And so I love it for that reason. The Almanack of Naval Ravikant, I it's pretty good. 

Kelly Molson: This is a book absolutely for me. And has not been recommended on this podcast as well. We're building up such a great list of recommendations from our guests. That's a good one. Okay. I'm gonna put that on my list. Listeners, if you wanna win a copy of that book, you know what to do. Head over to our picture account, retweet this episode announcement with the words if I want answered, and you might be in with a chance of winning it. This has been such a great chat. Thank you. You've given such good advice to our listeners. We will put all of your contact details in the show notes. So if any of our listeners wanna get in touch and talk about some of the things we've discussed today. I know that you're always super help happy to talk to people. 

Kelly Molson: We've put the marketing playbook download in the show notes too. So, honestly, go and get a copy of that. I'm sure that Olly's not gonna let you have it for free for much longer, so grab it while you can. Before you have to give him an email. 

Ant Rawlins: And if you don't mind, Kelly, I'll be invoicing point about always happy to speak to people, but particularly have to speak to people of in a bit of a fix. I'm more than happy with the half hour count saying to you guys, do you know what? We'd be doing this, this is where I would go by the you just if it helps.

Kelly Molson: There you go. Look. They're such good guys. Look at them. 

Ant Rawlins: I've learned this from my business partner, Simon. He's the nicest guy. Simon Jones is the nicest guy. I'm not very nice compared to him, but he just super nice. 

Kelly Molson: Yes. He is very nice. 

Ant Rawlins: There's a lovely industry. You know, there's a lot of nice people, isn't there, which is great. Is why a lot of us here probably know each other. We've spoken to each other, and we like each other. 

Kelly Molson: It's a lovely place to be. As is as you Skip the Queue and now, you'll Skip the Queue of them tonight. So well, welcome to the even lovely, a little segment within it. So thank you. It's been lovely to chat. You're a superstar. 

Kelly Molson: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned. 

Skip The Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website, rubbercheese.com/podcast.

Download The Visitor Attractions Website Survey Report - https://www.merac.co.uk/download-the-visitor-attractions-survey

We have launched our brand-new playbook: ‘The Retail Ready Guide to Going Beyond the Gift Shop’ — your go-to resource for building a successful e-commerce strategy that connects with your audience and drives sustainable growth.

Download your FREE copy here

Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is  Kelly Molson, Founder of Rubber Cheese.

Download the Rubber Cheese 2022 Visitor Attraction Website Report - the first digital benchmark statistics for the attractions sector.

If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website rubbercheese.com/podcast.

If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this podcast

Competition ends July 31st 2023. The winner will be contacted via Twitter.

Show references:

https://reworkconsulting.co.uk/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/sarahbagg/

Sarah Bagg

I’ve spent 24 years working in the Attraction, Leisure, and Hospitality sectors, from hands-on front-of-house roles to senior commercial and operational positions, before honing my knowledge in ticketing/membership/Epos/CRM software. As a supplier, I led the strategy and delivery of sales and marketing, development roadmap, as well as client engagement and retention.

Through ReWork I now combine the experiences and knowledge I gained as an operator, with those of a supplier.

It’s these lived experiences, and dare I say it, navigating the bumps in the road, that provide clients with the knowledge and confidence to plan for future growth.

ReWork helps leisure and attraction operators and software partners to get to where it needs to be quicker, with a clear focus on the long-term relationships that play a central role in commercial success.

ReWork Consulting will help you find the optimum tech partnership.

Transcriptions:

Kelly Molson: Welcome to Skip The Queue, a podcast for people working in or working with visitor attractions. I'm your host, Kelly Molson. Each episode, I speak with industry experts from the attractions world. 

In today's episode, I speak with Sarah Bagg from ReWork Consulting. We're talking about the procurement process and asking, is it broken? Sarah shares her top tips for both attractions and suppliers entering into a new process and we also discussed improving long standing partnerships. 

If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify and all the usual channels by searching Skip The Queue. 

Kelly Molson: Hi, Sarah. 

Sarah Bagg: Hi, Kelly. 

Kelly Molson: Welcome to Skip the Queue. It's lovely to have you here. 

Sarah Bagg: I know. Thank you for having me. 

Kelly Molson: We're going to start with some icebreakers. So I would like to know I like this one. What strange food pairings do you love that nobody else understands? 

Sarah Bagg: Oh, that's a good one. I don't know. It's probably not a food pairing anymore, but how you used to live off a budget when you're at uni and the strange things that used to have and I remember when I was really skinned, I used to have a bowl of couscous because you don't even need to cook that with ketchup and Worcester sauce. 

Kelly Molson: One, that is disgusting. 

Sarah Bagg: It's disgusting. 

Kelly Molson: But two, I'm laughing because mine also involves, like, a grain and ketchup as well.

Sarah Bagg: Surely there's five a day in there somewhere. 

Kelly Molson: Ketchup is good for you. Of course it is, isn’t it?

Sarah Bagg: It's bound to be. 

Kelly Molson: Absolutely. 

Sarah Bagg: A bit of carbs.

Kelly Molson: How gross. So mine is really similar, actually. So it was, you know, the bags of white rice that you can get that you put in the microwave. So one of them whack it in the microwave. A tin of tuna and ketchup. 

Sarah Bagg: Ketchup makes everything better. 

Kelly Molson: Protein goals. 

Sarah Bagg: Yeah. Your head is in that space where this requires washing our pizza. Bonus. 

Kelly Molson: Good. Just while we're on the topic of things that we ate, what about cold baked beans straight out of the tin? Yes, isn't it? 

Sarah Bagg: Yeah. When I was again at uni, we went to Prague on a trip and went on the coach. So it's like a marathon journey. And loads of us were eating cold beans. 

Kelly Molson: So delicious. It's the best thing ever. My daughter loves baked beans. She's baked bean fiend. But that is the first thing that as soon as that tin is opened, I'm getting a couple of spoons of those down. Right, good. Learnt a lot about each other there, didn't we? 

Sarah Bagg: We're on the same wavelength. 

Kelly Molson: Okay, attractions related. What are you most likely to buy when you exit through the gift shop? I love this question.

Sarah Bagg: I am a massive fan of postcards. Not because I send them anymore, because it feels a bit like and I mainly go I would say my choice of visitor attraction would be like a gallery immersive type of attraction and it always stays on my fridge. Or it's not just something. Maybe you can frame it and make it into a piece of artwork rather than some tap that's just plastic. 

Kelly Molson: That's nice. Thought you were going to start dissing rubbers then. 

Sarah Bagg: Big fan of fridge magnets, too. But they always have to be, like, of something that looks nice and tacked. 

Kelly Molson: Yeah, like a model of that. If you went to, like, a historic house. A model of the house. Good, postcards. And thought about that. That is quite a nice one, isn't it? Okay, last one. What one thing would you make a law that isn't one already? 

Sarah Bagg: Well, technically it is. It's about finding people, though. My biggest bugbear about anyone in life is dropping litter. I can't stand it. Makes me feel I turn into a big old moany person. I figure it's a good thing to moan about. It will be a way of being able to find people and find them on the spot for dropping letter. 

Kelly Molson: See, that is a thing, though, isn't it? But who does that? Who does it? Who does the finding? Yeah, that's a good one. Okay. 

Sarah Bagg: Because there's no point in having a law if you can't implement the law. There's signs all over the Brighton Seafront saying, “You'll get fined if you drop litter”. But who's the litter patrol person that's going up and down? 

Kelly Molson: There's a job there, isn't there? There's a job there. Good. Okay. Thank you very much. What is your unpopular opinion? 

Sarah Bagg: This might spit the room slightly. I guess that's the point of an unpopular opinion. It'd probably be unpopular for most marketing professionals and web designers. Watch out, Kelly. Absolutely hate pop ups on website. 

Kelly Molson: That's okay. I'm with you. 

Sarah Bagg: Absolutely hate them. They're, like, the worst invention. I don't understand why they're still on website. Like, I'm just browsing. I'm literally been on somebody's site for, like, barely 15 seconds, and you're asking me whether I want to subscribe to your newsletter about your company yet? Why are you asking me to subscribe to your website? 

Kelly Molson: Yeah. So there is a good user case for them. I hear where you're going. They are annoying, but there is a good use case for them. But I think it's about timing, isn't it? 

Sarah Bagg: Right, yeah. 

Kelly Molson: It's about time and place again. So not when someone's just come on and is browsing, but if they're in your blog right. And they're invested in some of the things that you're talking about, then absolutely. That's the time to with a little pop up. 

Sarah Bagg: Definitely. You're right. It's about timing rather than enough time to blink. There should be some way of it's, either certain pages or the time that you've been on. 

Kelly Molson: What are you annoying? Are the pop up adverts that you get on local newspaper websites? Have you ever gone on, there must be, like, a Brighton local news website. 

Sarah Bagg: Yeah, the Argos. 

Kelly Molson: Oh, my God. They just drive me insane to the point where you just can't read. You can't read the article. 

Sarah Bagg: No.

Kelly Molson: I'm not okay with those. There you go. Well, let's see, listeners, let us know. Pop ups.No pop ups. Is Sarah's opinion that unpopular? We should see. Tell me about your background, Sarah. What have you’ve done previously and where that brings you to now?

Sarah Bagg: So, I have spent ridiculous amount of years working in the leisure and hospitality and attractions industry. I don't say attractions because it hasn't just been attractions, but I guess before my management career, which started probably about when I was 23, I'm 46 now.

Sarah Bagg: Keep on saying 45 for keeping forgetting I've added another year. I probably spent all my working life in leisure, hospitality and attractions. From the age of 15. I was working in Green Leisure, which is theme park in Somerset, where I grew up from, working in the Swan Theatre in High Wickham, where I went to uni, and then part time roles in Australia. When I was travelling in the Sydney Maritime Museum, I managed a hostel over there. 

Sarah Bagg: So I've always been in customer facing leisure operation roles. And then when I came back to the UK, after travelling, I moved straight to London. No offence to Somerset, I still love my home county, but I needed bright lights and excitement of London, and I guess you could say I honed my management craft and skills in the pub business. So I was a really young manager, I started working on nails, which is a whole I talk about that for about an hour. We haven't got that time, kind of by accident. And I remember a guy saying to me, look, if you're going to be here, I know this is a part time gig, but you might as well get trained in management while you're here. 

Sarah Bagg: And O'Neill's, for people that don't know it, and the overseas listeners, it's owned by a company called Mitchell's and Butler, so it's a big corporation and they used to have a very good management training programme, almost like fast track learning on the job, but also lots of assessments. And I think four months after I started, I was managing the pub that I took a part time job in. And it's a massive learning curve for managing stock, cash people, public drinking, massive issue, obviously, profit, events, you name it, you can learn it in the hospitality and pub business. And then after a few years working there, I went to Monopolis. 

Sarah Bagg: Again, people might not know it, but it's a wine tasting and events company in London Bridge, London, three and a half acre site, and I was head of operations there, and I looked after about 120 staff, my responsibility, and that led to me getting a role at Chelsea Football Club. So I, for about five and a half years, managed the stadium tours and museum there, as well as two Capex museum redevelopment projects. So, yeah, that was when did I leave chelsea, 2013, something like that. So I spent all of that time in sort of London, in that area and then went to sort of the supplier side. So I went to work for the visitor attraction company first. They were opening a series of attractions throughout the country. And I went in as a contractor, head of ops for them. 

Sarah Bagg: And then I went to the technical supplier side and worked for a UK ticketing provider. And initially I was doing some business consultancy for them and then the owner offered me a full time role that was sort of sales, marketing and customer success and I was there for about seven and a half years. And then got promoted to a directorship where I helped the owner in a more strategic direction of the company in terms of development, roadmap and recruitment strategies, et cetera. And that was up until April last year, actually, a year. 

Kelly Molson: Oh, it's a year, it's your year's. So Sarah and I, we met actually at your time at Tour. I think that's how we got talking, didn't we? Because we had a client that was using the system. Actually, I think that's how the conversation started. But you have branched out on your own as an independent consultant now and you doing that has kind of formed the topic of this conversation because it's kind of what you help your client base with. So tell us a little bit, the company is called ReWork. Tell us a little bit about what it is and who you work for. 

Sarah Bagg: Yeah, so maybe a little bit different to some consultancies that support attractions. I support attractions or leisure operators and tech suppliers. Basically the main aim is to increase revenue, grow their businesses, that's the end goal. But for attractions or leisure operators it could be procuring use solutions and finding the right partnership with whatever tech suppliers the requirements for. But it also might be helping them with their current partnership and improving it. Because my experience, the easy bit is the procurement, it's maintaining the partnership for the years to come where there's obviously lots of areas for improvement and many of the reasons why people jump ship deciding to go and find another supplier is because the relationship has gone down the swannie. And then with suppliers, I've been helping them with their sales and marketing strategy. 

Sarah Bagg: Either new suppliers that are coming into this market and want to understand visitor attractions better than the marketplace and where it stands or where there's improvements to be made, I think lots of suppliers, everyone's guilty of it. You get in your own headspace, don't you, of you keep on doing sales demos, you keep on doing processes and just take somebody that has an external view. As a consultant, you're in a perfect position because you get to see loads of attraction, loads of suppliers presenting and doing demonstrations and responding to RFIs and RFPs. So actually going in there and reviewing that process for them to improve their sales conversions is part of my offering. 

Kelly Molson: So we're going to talk about procurement today, and it is a word that I think probably fills suppliers and attractions with dread. It's a daunting process, it can be time consuming. It's kind of a necessary evil, isn't it? I'm a really realistic supplier in the sense that there's a lot of agencies out there. Well, there's a lot of agencies out there, and there's a lot of people that will advise you to not don't go through procurement process, don't do it, you shouldn't pitch for stuff. And one hand, I totally and utterly agree, because it is painful. And some of the things that make it painful, we'll talk about today. But unfortunately, it's a necessary evil in the sectors that we work in. 

Sarah Bagg: Yeah. 

Kelly Molson: It's the process that is followed and so you kind of have to play the game, but the procurement process has to be run in the right way. And I think that is why I believe that procurement process has broken down quite drastically over the last God knows how many years. 

Sarah Bagg: Yeah. And I think when some people, some suppliers say, I don't get involved in public procurement, for example, it's so labour intensive. I was involved in one which people were nameless not so long ago, and they were using the same kind of procurement processes as when I was involved with a supplier, maybe like I don't know, must be like, ten years ago, even references to things like fax machines. It's like, God, like you no one's updating this process from the government side things. Obviously, that's where they're getting their forms. But on the very flip side of that, you might have a private attraction, leisure operator, but I've seen procurement done on one sheet of A4. That's their basis of spending tens of thousands of pounds on a solution. 

Kelly Molson: Yeah. And neither makes sense. Right. So we have to find a process that works. So I feel we have to find a process that works and the whole industry adopts that process. That's what I think would be. Anyway, I want to ask you, what are the biggest challenges for an attraction when it comes to the procurement process? 

Sarah Bagg: Well, definitely, I don't know about top, but the most pressing one, which you get from whatever organisation takes it on, is time. It's very rare that you would ever find somebody that's like, "Right, I'm going to procure a new solution and I'm going to recruit a new member of staff to run that whole process for me", that just doesn't happen.  

Sarah Bagg: And then there's obviously downsides to that too, because that person doesn't understand the organisation. And yet that sometimes there's a perception that as soon as the solution goes live, that's it.  It's fine, we don't need to put any time aside now. Maybe you've got an administrator or somebody that does administrating for the system, putting new tickets on or creating new events or retail items, but the emphasis on time suddenly goes, which I think is all wrong, because the partnership should start from the moment somebody says hello all the way through the life cycle of that. 

Kelly Molson: So you mean that relationship isn't managed past the point of the solution being implemented, that then the relationship isn't managed in the correct way. 

Sarah Bagg: And I know the term partnership gets floated about so much and some suppliers, it might be ticketing, but it might be something else entirely. Some do turn up and action things that make partnerships great, others just use that name as a selling point. But I think the key thing is that the person that's procuring the organisation, that's procuring the solution and working with that supplier and the supplier have a 50 - 50 ratio responsibility for making that partnership work. And I don't know if that is anywhere evidenced. I don't see any evidence of that within our sector. And I guess that's where I feel like I've got a good, I'm in a good position to see both sides because I'm working with the suppliers to hopefully raise the standards and I'm working with a leisure operation, Attractions, to raise the standards. 

Sarah Bagg: So hopefully, although I'm only one person right now, in time that will have some impact. 

Kelly Molson: Yeah. Okay. So biggest challenges for attractions we talked about, you mentioned time resource because lack of time and you potentially need someone to run this process for you that you don't have. And then the challenge of how to get the most out of that relationship once the solution has been implemented, it doesn't stop there. What about because you sit very much in between the attractions and the suppliers? What do you think are the biggest challenges when it comes to suppliers about the procurement process? 

Sarah Bagg: Well, I would say that they both have similar stresses. And the second one I was going to say, apart from time, is knowledge. There is maybe a lack of awareness about how much the process of procurement matters to the end result, as in who you're going to choose.

Sarah Bagg: And that's about if a consultant is on board, you're expecting them to have market knowledge. So obviously awareness of the actual sector, but also market knowledge of what technology providers are out there and which are suited to that particular client, but also what process works the best to get the best result. And I don't think that emphasis is strong enough. And I think that also impacts the suppliers. 

Sarah Bagg: So if they don't have most of the time, they don't have any say, apart from maybe how they turn up to a demo about the process at all, and it totally impacts them and how they can perform.

Kelly Molson: Yeah, I totally agree. A lot of the procurement processes that you are part of are for ticketing and for systems or platforms, maybe. And I kind of come at it. We're slightly different in that. Yes, it's a digital offering that we have, but it's a website, so it's it's more of a it's not like a plug and play kind of kind of thing. But I think the biggest challenge that I find is lack of conversation early. So give you an example. Tender comes in, a brief comes over, looks really exciting, looks absolutely up our street, read the brief. There's no opportunity for me to have a conversation with them about the brief. I can send questions, I can email questions over. 

Kelly Molson: So there is a dialogue, but it's not a way to it's not even about building relationship, if I'm honest. It's about that two way street. 

Kelly Molson: Should you be like, can you work, should you be finding out early enough if you gel? Is there a relationship there that could be developed? 

Kelly Molson: Are we right for you? Are you right for us? Kind of thing. I think the thing that I find the most frustrating about the process is that complete lack of conversation at the start of it. 

Sarah Bagg: And I think that opens up massive issues because I wrote a blog post, an article recently about I can't even say the word ambiguity. It's really a hard word to say because when you're relying on the written word, you read into things. Whereas actually, if you just get on a call and say, right, these suppliers, you don't need to names who ask what questions, but these are the answer to all those questions, and somebody then might say to you, "Oh, that's great, because that makes that much clearer. Can I ask another question?" And it's just there you clarify everything exactly really well, whereas you wouldn't be able to do that so easily. Back and forth, back and forth. 

Kelly Molson: Yeah, exactly that point. And then the other one is open tenders. I've talked a lot about this, actually. Sophie Ballinger from Eureka came on, I think, last season, actually, season three, and we had a good talk about it. So Eureka is a client of ours. That's public knowledge. When we first started working with them, were lucky enough to have eyes on a tender that had been sent out, and it was a public tender. They put it out to they did send it to a few people, but anyone could find this tender and potentially put in a proposal for it, and that's what happened. So they had 40 tenders come back in, you know, 40 proposals for their brief. This is a weird one, in that were one of those 40. 

Kelly Molson: We'd been up to meet Eureka, we'd been up to see them and ask questions. They were really kind. They gave everybody that wanted time with them, time whether that was on the phone or in person. So it was a really good process. We got shortlisted and we won that tender. Right. So, in one hand, I can't knock that process because we have the opportunity to work with an incredible client that we still work with today. They're amazing. However, I questioned Sophie and said, "Would you do this massive open tender again?" Because surely, respectfully, you have to read 40 briefs, 40 responses that come back right, and evaluate them. That's a s*** load of work. 

Sarah Bagg: Yeah. 

Kelly Molson: It'd better to do your research first, pick, like, three or four that you think are a really good fit on paper for you. Do a little bit of groundwork and then just send it to those. Yeah, she was really torn because she was like, "Yes, one hand that would have been sensible, but then they wouldn't have found us through that process". And that's why I kind of raised it as I'm really torn about this, because we wouldn't have got that opportunity if it hadn't been an open tender. But also, does it work? I don't know if it works. 

Sarah Bagg: No, I know. I honestly believe that if you rush the process, even though you say you short time, you're only going to cause yourself more grief and you're investing in a system that isn't like a couple of hundred quid and you really want to be with them. I know technology is moving faster. And I could argue for the fact that these old legacy systems now, where they have the, “Oh, we've been working with this client for 15, 20 years”. Well, have you been doing a really great job, or is it just too much of a pain to change because it is so ingrained in your organisation? It's obviously all the cloud based solutions are much easier to sort and change over anyway,  that's a side topic. 

Sarah Bagg: I think that if people can do a step by step process, whether you call it RFI or RFP, whatever, somebody said to me last year, "Sarah, I just don't have time to sit in. These suppliers want me to sit in on a demo for like, two and a half hours". And I was like, “Yeah, that's quite reasonable”. If you can't put time aside, and that means changing how your organisation is for weeks or months, whatever, to give you some support, or you bring in somebody that's going to help you through that process, you do need to put in time, otherwise you're going to be making the wrong decision. 

Kelly Molson: Yeah, I totally agree that two and a half hours seems quite insignificant in the grand scheme of things, that you're going to spend, like, potentially hundreds of thousands of pounds on this system over the year, that two and a half hours. You kind of really need to know if it will do what it says it does for you. 

Sarah Bagg: For people that don't really understand the market and how massive it is, even though whenever I talk to people about that aren't in our industry, and I tell them what ReWork does, they're like, "Wow, that's from a niche, isn't it?" And I'm like, "Yeah, it's amazing how we've got a niche of ticketing." And when I say ticketing, this obviously gets confusing sometimes, because ticketing does encompass membership, I call it retail. Catering does it? Because some organisations that are smaller want a system. They might call it a ticketing and CRM system, but it does everything if you went up a scale. And they might be looking at a best breed solution, which has got higher functionality in ticketing, but they don't have catering or retail, et cetera, and they might integrate to another best agreed solution. 

Sarah Bagg: But the market review I did earlier on this year for a global entertainment organisation had 25 ticketing suppliers to the visitor attraction sector. So with somebody that has no knowledge, how do you work out where that 24 are going to be shortlisted to the first stage, let alone second stage? And you might be missing out on an amazing supplier if you don't.

Kelly Molson: Because you don't know how to evaluate from between them. Yeah, I hadn't thought about that. That's a really hugely daunting process and probably why people should use a consultant, Sarah. We talked a bit about that partnership piece. How do you evaluate what a good partnership is? 

Sarah Bagg: I briefly touched on it about the fact that people think about partnerships as the ongoing process, but it starts at the very point of contact. So whether that's me as a consultant doing a Q and A with some suppliers, I'm acting on behalf of that client at the end of the day. It's not, "Oh, you're a supplier" it's, "we turn up together, we're in this together." We, as attractions operators or leisure operators, understand some of the stresses that suppliers have to go through, and suppliers also understand the stresses and the challenges that the operator has to go through, because without being open and honest about your businesses, how are you going to be able to work together? 

Kelly Molson: Yes, good point, isn't it? You have to understand the intricacies of each other's businesses. And we probably don't do that enough, actually. There's been times in the past where we haven't asked enough of the right questions. Being brutally honest, I'm sure there's plenty of suppliers out there that have done exactly the same as us and we haven't understood the intricacies as well as we should have. So we do make sure that's a focus now, because if we don't, we can't build the solution that works for them and works for the level of understanding they have of certain technologies or just the level of resource that they have, like this thing that we're going to build for them. Do they actually have the internal capability to work with it? That's a question you need to ask. 

Kelly Molson: But what I guess we don't often do is flip that on its head. So we as suppliers probably don't go, "Well, look, this is our team, this is our capabilities." We also have X amount of suppliers and this is how our we just probably don't go into the level of detail that we need to about how we operate so that the attractions can understand maybe some of our limitations as well. 

Sarah Bagg: Exactly. And I think once a solution goes live, if you're talking at that kind of handover period between implementing and then going live, suppliers also need to discuss and make it's vitally important for them to make this partnership work. If they don't, they'll be losing that contract. So how can you put something in place? And it's not just saying, we'll do account meetings whenever you feel like it. What actual credentials can you put? There evaluation processes to say whether the partnership is working. And I know that suppliers issue SLAs, but then their SLAs, like, "Is the system down?" those kind of things. And that's not really about the partnership, that's about the solution actually working, like you're being paid on a service contract. 

Kelly Molson: So you mentioned SLAs. I'm laughing because one of my other bugbears is actually sometimes it's not just for instance, we work with attractions, we have a partnership with the attraction, but also we need a partnership with whatever ticketing solution they have. Right. 

Kelly Molson: Because we're controlling the website that their ticketing solution is attached to and to a certain extent vice versa if it's API driven. So we'll have our SLAs, ticketing provider will have their SLAs. Again, we don't know what they mean, but we get given it's with support and it's an SLA level of XYP and we're like, " Again, we don't know, but we get given it's with support and it's an SLA level of XYP and we're like, "Great, what does that mean? When do we get a reply then? Because the clients coming to us, there's an issue. Are we going to get a reply in an hour or is that a 16 hour?” I don't know. It's define what those SLAs are and actually share them with everybody. 

Sarah Bagg: Yeah, exactly. So if you took the example of like, say it wasn't all in one ticketing solution and it was best to breathe and there was a ticketing supplier, a retail supplier and an F and B supplier, you would want to know that all of those three know which, how they all operate. 

Kelly Molson: Yes. 

Sarah Bagg: Of the account meetings that you have them. 

Kelly Molson: I totally agree. This came up on a panel discussion at the Ticketing Professionals Conference a few weeks ago, didn't it, about who's in control of that user journey when it comes to ticketing and websites. And that was one thing that we kept saying, is actually, it's not about them and us. We all need to work together for the best solution for the client. And that does mean all speaking and all having those open conversations about stuff. Stuff goes wrong, it's always going to go wrong. But it's not about who's at fault here, it's about how do we rectify it and how do we make it not happen again. And you can't do that unless you've got all the right people in the room at the same time.

Sarah Bagg: I go back to my days at O'Neill's, we used to have a mystery shopper scheme and it used to put on everyone on edge, like, "Is that the person that's shopper?" And it's like a snapshot of your business, wasn't it? It's like one visit every quarter and then suddenly you're given, like, this result and it's like, "Well, that's not really fair because most of the time, this may run really well. Why have I got 80%, 95 or whatever?" But if there was something in place that you could see over a period of time, not like, “Oh, the ticketing supplier isn't doing great this week”, every quarter you could sit down and say, "Here's the benchmarks, what are we doing well? What is Supply doing? Well what is the attraction doing well? Are they getting the responses back to me quickly enough?"

Sarah Bagg: If a supplier has got an issue, an attraction has got an issue with the system, and they've reported it to support, for example, but they haven't been clear about what the issue is, then it causes frustration for the supplier because it's like emails back and forth or help desk portals with massive long lists of questions. So it does take the attraction also to turn up and give the right information for that supplier to investigate the issue properly. 

Kelly Molson: Yes, that is a very good point, actually. And that, I know, can be a challenge because attraction teams are often quite small. Sometimes ticketing can sit with marketing, sometimes Ticketing can sit with visitor experience, operations, and those teams are pulled here, there and everywhere. So, yeah, that's a very good point, is that there's an element of more triaging that needs to be done internally before it goes out to the ticketing or the web agency. And that comes down to good account management, right? 

Sarah Bagg: Yeah, 100%. And how you obviously there used to be a high turnover of staff. Now, at the moment, the recruitment is really hard for most attractions out there. How do you, with your supplier record issues, report back issues to management, make sure the member of staff that's actually using the system on the front desk is accountable to X, Y and Z, but that actually manages the partnership. So the structure within your organisation as an attraction really matters in terms of how the partnership works. 

Sarah Bagg: Because if you've got loads of casual staff on a Saturday and Sunday and the manager that manages the partnership doesn't work Saturday and Sunday, something needs to be in place for that communication to be clear and the supplier to get the right information and therefore investigate and get back to the person and the organisation as quickly as possible. So I just think it's a 50-50 level of responsibility, but we've always thought this kind of it feels like suppliers are down here somewhere and it's the client, you're up here just because one's paying for the other. 

Kelly Molson: Yeah, no, I get that and I've felt that in some circumstances, it's good to highlight that. Okay, few more questions. What would be your two top tips for attractions when it comes to the procurement process? 

Sarah Bagg: Definitely would be to if you want to get advice, and this should be for any consultant out there, too. Is that even if you don't think you need because you've got great team to manage the procurement process, get some external advice early, even if it's just like pay for one day's consultancy in the grand scheme of things, that's going to be like a tiny pin brick in the big budget. And it might allow you to go if you start the project, say, for instance, in 2022, and thought, I need a new system, but I can't afford it till 2023. Have the conversation with the consultant early. They all should be able to give you an indication of timelines. 

Sarah Bagg: So therefore, then you can work back and know when you've got to start the process, because no one everyone always underestimates how quickly time goes, holiday, absence. Then you've got to rely on getting all the suppliers ducks in a row in terms of organising demos and presentations. And then people within your organisation. Who is going to help you because you can't do it all on your own? Through the procurement process, you're going to be sick on holiday. You're going to be sick on holiday. 

Sarah Bagg: You've got a million other projects to go. There needs to be more than one person and ideally, it would be a project team, people, different departments, but somebody that is accountable to take that support and to take it forwards. 

Kelly Molson: Yeah, great tips. Same question for suppliers. What would be your two top tips for suppliers going through the process? 

Sarah Bagg: I think, in terms of procurement, listen to the brief and respond to the brief. Don't just put out some blanket template response. We increase sales by X to X so that when the references come up, you can go to that client and say, "They're saying that they've helped you increase sales by X." They're like, "Yeah, they did. The previous system was shocking and our relationships are really great now" because anyone can say, airy Fairy sells waffle, as I call it. Give the potential client some facts where you've actually helped. But even if you can, got two examples, that's better than just coming up with sales waffle, in my opinion. And I would say, get somebody to review your processes. 

Sarah Bagg: When I started working for Tor, in that consultancy period, I reviewed all of the tender processes that were going on in the organisation and in the end, obviously, I started working, so I had to put my words into practise. But I think getting somebody to look at it from an outside perspective, sitting in on some demonstrations and seeing it from a new perspective always helps. I'd probably say that, to be honest with you, for any organisation, occasionally, it sometimes takes a new person starting, doesn't it, to go, Why are we doing it this way? 

Kelly Molson: Yeah. Because we've always done it that way.

Sarah Bagg: Yeah. 

Kelly Molson: Can't we do it a different way? Good advice. Yeah, I like that. And to be fair, you probably answered my last question is, why is it important to work with a consultant? You answered an element of that briefly in that get an outside pair of hands, getting outside view sorry, on what you're doing. Also, I guess you've got knowledge of systems that they may not be aware of, so you're keeping up to date with the current trends and the current things that are happening within the industry. What else would you say was a reason for working with a consultant? 

Sarah Bagg: Many people will think, "I can't afford a consultant", so they see it as a cost to the project. Whereas, and I know people will say, “Well, of course you're going to say this because you're a consultant”, but I've always thought consultancy and expert impartial advice is a cost saving because it's filling the gaps that you don't have. Like, even that global entertainment company didn't have ticketing expertise to be able to do a market review. They identified that in their business. So actually, if they had moved forwards without putting that step and getting that independent person involved, they wouldn't have been able to move forwards with clarity and reassurance that they're making the right decision. 

Kelly Molson: Yes. 

Sarah Bagg: And those decisions end up with lengthy contract terms unpicking a mess, which I'm sure everyone at home is nodding, going, "Oh, God, I've been there".

Kelly Molson: For sure.Well, they make the decision that actually they don't have the time, capacity or the budget to go ahead with the project anyway, so there's that to consider too, isn't there? Offer what we call a discovery session, discovery workshop, which could be it's exactly what you were saying about getting someone in just to do a day or two consultancy with you to give you an overview of where you're at and what actually would be the right steps to move forward with. And that's kind of what we do as well. And it's a really good way of evaluating, actually, can you do this project at this point? Do you need to do it now? Do you need to put this on hold for six months? Do you need an X person in?

Kelly Molson: Do you need this person to be in the role before you go ahead with this project so that's invaluable? 

Sarah Bagg: Or do you even need to do it at all? Because I think sometimes there's a tendency to have blinkers on, not because anyone's fault, but because you've just been dealing with the day to day grind and actually, has anyone tried to make this partnership work? I know it should be suppliers. So this is a shout out to all suppliers there. Don't sit back on your laurels with contracts. I heard somebody say a while ago, somebody that I met, a conference, they were like, "Oh, it's great, I haven't had to deal with my supplier for weeks, months now or something, ages." And I was like, "Is that a good thing? Is that a good thing that you haven't heard from your partner, ticketing partner, for such a long time?” Yes, it means the system's not down or whatever, but surely there should be more engagement. 

Sarah Bagg: Are you getting the most out of the system to engage with your customers and make you more money?

Kelly Molson: Yeah, that to me says that isn't a healthy relationship, though. That sense I get from that is that you're hearing from them because stuff is going wrong. You're not hearing from them, so nothing's going wrong, but that's still not right. No, you should try and to engage and improve. 

Sarah Bagg: And I think this sort of sits outside procurement, but one thing leads to another. Is that my biggest piece of advice, and I said this at the Ticketing Business Forum the other week when I was asked that suppliers need to and whether it's ticketing or whatever is to really target decide which part of the market they are targeting and as I call it, pick a lane. Because I honestly don't believe you're trying to be everything to everyone is going to service the industry well. Your current clients will soon be left behind because they're not important enough anymore. Because another group is. Do you really have a big enough development team to service all these requirements from all stretches of our sector? And it doesn't help when you're trying to shortlist because all this supplier says they're everything to everyone. 

Sarah Bagg: How does that help anyone try and push if he wants to, I don't know, develop your membership area? Is that important to that supplier? In terms of their roadmap? 

Kelly Molson: Yeah. So niche within a niche, Sarah. That's what they say, niche within the niche. 

Sarah Bagg: There's enough suppliers out there, 24 plus that actually everyone could have a niche and everyone could be doing it really well and there won't be any niche or a flat there. 

Kelly Molson: That's good advice. And we don't need to send out RFPs to maybe four of them. Yes, all 24. Amazing. Thanks, Sarah. I could talk about this topic all day long. I think, as you're well aware, I've got lots to this conversation, but I would like to know what book you'd like to share about to our listeners.

Sarah Bagg: For those of you that haven't probably seen on LinkedIn, I'm also a life coach and it feeds quite into a lot into consulting about how I ask my clients questions. And I love this book, it's all about time. It's called Four Thousand Weeks and it's about the average we have this time on the planet and how we should use the time. And what I love about it is it's like lots of time management books always like they make you try and let's eat out every minute and productivity hustle harder. I feel I'm like exhausted listening to, whereas this really takes quite a reflective view of what's important to you and take a step back and I think we can all learn massive lessons from that in this ever fast paced world that we live in. So, yeah, Four Thousand Weeks would be my recommendation. 

Kelly Molson: Great book. I like that. I think I might go and check that out there. I think I might go and check that out there. Not going to lie. Hectic is the word that I'll describe the beginning hectic and I could do with taking a bit of a step back and evaluating how I spend a lot of time. I'll add that to my list. Listeners, if you want to win a beam with the chance of winning a copy of that book, if you head over to our Twitter account and you retweet this podcast announcement with the words, I want Sarah's book, then you might just win it. Who knows, you might get lucky. So, it's been lovely to chat. Thank you. 

Sarah Bagg: Lovely to have me on. 

Kelly Molson: I will see you at an industry event very soon because we always bump into each other and it's always a pleasure. But yeah, thanks for coming on and sharing about the procurement process. We will link out to all of Sarah's contact details and her website in the show notes. So if you do want to get in touch for a chat book that day of consultancy, go ahead and do it. 

Sarah Bagg: Thank you. 

Kelly Molson: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned. 

Skip The Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website, rubbercheese.com/podcast.

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Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is  Kelly Molson, Founder of Rubber Cheese.

Download the Rubber Cheese 2022 Visitor Attraction Website Report - the first digital benchmark statistics for the attractions sector.

If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website rubbercheese.com/podcast.

If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this podcast

Competition ends July 31st 2023. The winner will be contacted via Twitter.

Show references:

https://twitter.com/ChelsPhysicGdn

https://www.chelseaphysicgarden.co.uk/

https://twitter.com/FSampers

https://www.linkedin.com/in/frances-sampayo-6a4939100/

Frances Sampayo is the Deputy Director of Chelsea Physic Garden. In her day to day role she leads visitor experience, learning & public engagement, volunteering and interpretation. Ensuring that these areas are central to the organisations strategic vision.  

Frances has worked for galleries, museums, heritage attractions, palaces, and now a botanic garden. She brings to life completely unique events at each site, ensuring they are rooted in people. This includes visitors, staff and collaborators. For Frances, the places she works often have many barriers for visitors, and programming offers the chance to break these down. You may not feel a botanic garden is for you, but why not start with a music night instead? The more complicated and creative the event, the better. 

Transcriptions:

Kelly Molson: Welcome to Skip The Queue, a podcast for people working in or working with visitor attractions. I'm your host, Kelly Molson. Each episode, I speak with industry experts from the attractions world. 

In today's episode I speak with Frances Sampayo, Deputy Director (Visitor Experience) at the Chelsea Physic Garden.

We discuss the transformative journey the garden has been on with it’s public programming calendar, and the exciting and unexpected outcomes that’s brought the organisation.

If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on itunes, Spotify and all the usual channels by searching Skip The Queue.

Kelly Molson: Frances, it's so lovely to have you on the podcast. Thank you for coming to join me. 

Frances Sampayo: Oh, thank you so much. A longtime listener. So thrilled to be here. 

Kelly Molson: Always lovely to hear. Well, will you be thrilled after the icebreaker questions? Who knows? Let's go. Right, I want to know, when you go out for dinner, are you a starter and a main kind of gal or main and a pudding, or all three? I mean, you can have all three. 

Frances Sampayo: I think it's pudding, especially if it's Tiramisu. That's it. Decision made. 

Kelly Molson: Okay, so Tiramisu is on the menu. That's the one you're going for. That's it. That's the focus.

Frances Sampayo: Yeah, I'd probably just have that over the main, to be honest. 

Kelly Molson: Do you know what? There is a pudding. Yeah. So there are pudding restaurants, though, aren't there, where you can go and yeah, there's one in Cambridge. I walked past it last week while were in town and it's basically just puddings. 

Frances Sampayo: Oh, great. 

Kelly Molson: You can have a main pudding, a starter pudding and a pudding. 

Frances Sampayo: I will never go there. That's too dangerous for me. But, yeah. 

Kelly Molson: Open invite to come and join me. I would go crumble all the way. 

Frances Sampayo: Oh, nice. 

Kelly Molson: Okay, good. If you had to pick one item to win a lifetime supply of, what would you pick? 

Frances Sampayo: Probably something really boring like sunblock, because I am so pale to that. That would be really handy for me. 

Kelly Molson: Well, we should all wear sunscreen. Very important. Doesn't matter about being pale. More important to not have skin cancer. 

Frances Sampayo: Very true. Very true. 

Kelly Molson: Okay, good. Final one. If you could be any fictional character, who would you like to be and why? 

Frances Sampayo: That is a great question. I would love to probably go into, like, a Regency novel, but I wouldn't want to be a main character. I'd probably just want to be someone on the sidelines who gets to see everything and just kind of fly on the wall and kind of see everything that's happening in these amazing worlds.  Yeah, that would be great. I like it. Yeah. 

Kelly Molson: What's the draw to that kind of era? Is it the architecture? Is it the clothing? 

Frances Sampayo: Can I give a real kind of sector answer? 

Kelly Molson: Absolutely.

Frances Sampayo: Part one would be we so often use as filming locations, so there's a lot of Regency dramas. That would be great to see something like this happening in one of these spaces. And the second is, I once duty managed a kind of 18th century themed party at a site I worked where everyone was in fancy dress from the era. And it was amazing sharing people were just sheivelling as the evening went on, stockings were falling down, men had rouge on, all of those amazing things. And just seeing that come to life was amazing. So I'd love to kind of get to see it kind of happening in actual Regency time period, as opposed to just kind of as an event in the 21st century. 

Kelly Molson: I love that. Really kind of sets the tone for what we're going to talk about today as well, the events. All right, that was an excellent answer. Thank you. Right, Frances, what is your unpopular opinion? 

Frances Sampayo: So I'm not a fan of false Jeopardy, which is a big component of reality TV, particularly cooking shows, where someone will take a bite of food and then just the camera pauses for what feels like five minutes and they do all the close up shots of everyone looking really tense, and I just, "Oh, I hate it". So I know it's something very popular, it's in all the reality TV shows, but I always skip that bit, look at my phone or do something else. 

Kelly Molson: Just get on with it. Just get on with it. 

Frances Sampayo: Get on with it. 

Kelly Molson: Or you don't we don't need the drama or the tense. 

Frances Sampayo: Just put this poor person out of their misery. And you think it's better than anything, like, I could have ever even imagined I cooked. And you just dragging this poor person's emotional journey out. So, yeah, just think just get over it. Just do it. Tell them whether it's good or not. 

Kelly Molson: I like it. Yeah, I would like that. I'd just like to know yes or no. Don't keep me hanging around. It's like it causes more anxiety than you need it to be. 

Kelly Molson: I'm definitely one of those people. If someone says, can we have a chat on Monday? I'm like, can we just do it now? Do we need to wait over the weekend? Is it good or is it bad? Because I will just think about this continuously now for the week. So let's just get it out of the way. 

Frances Sampayo: Let's do it now. Yeah. My team liked me to do if I book in a catch up. We had to catch up, good thing. Catch up, constructive thing, just to help.

Kelly Molson: Yeah, that’s really useful.

Frances Sampayo: Because, again, it is that forced Jeopardy thing of, "Yeah, oh, no, I've got to wait the whole weekend and I don't know what this meeting is about". “It's a good thing. Ten minutes. It's fine, don't worry.”

Kelly Molson: That's a really good positive tip, isn't it? Yes, but what if it’s not a good day?

Frances Sampayo: Then I'll call it something else. 

Kelly Molson: Okay. Catch up. Not okay. 

Frances Sampayo: Yes, catch up. It's all gone wrong. 

Kelly Molson: Okay, that is an excellent tip, I can say that. Share that with the team after our call. Thank you. We've got so much to talk about today. I'm really excited about this chat. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about what they can expect at the Chelsea Physic Garden and then just a little bit about what your role is as well? 

Frances Sampayo: So Chelsea Physic Garden is a four acre garden. We're in Chelsea, as the name suggests, and we've got over four and a half thousand plants that you can come and see. So we've got a living collection. Most collections in museums are behind glass, but us is living, we have to take care of it and we've got an amazing team of gardeners that do that. So we call ourselves London's oldest outdoor classroom because we've always been a place for people to come and learn about plants. So we've got a really fantastic learning team, but we've also got a really dynamic engagement programme, which helps people connect in different ways to plants, because it can be quite intimidating, I think, particularly if you grew up in a city you don't know much about nature, you might not have had a garden. 

Frances Sampayo: So we've got a really dynamic programme, giving people lots of different entry points. This year, we turned 350. So in September, we're opening glass houses that have all been restored with support of the National Heritage Fund. So if you're going to come and visit and you've got a restoration project coming up, September is a great time to come to the garden. But we always say, whatever day you come, that's the best day to come, because you're going to see something no one else gets to see, because flowers can change one day to the next 1 hour to the next. So it's a really special place to come and just connect with nature, really. So that's a bit about the garden now, a bit about my role. I've got quite a broad role. So we're a small site, we're a small team. 

Frances Sampayo: And I think when you have a small site and a small team, you get jobs that actually have quite a lot within their remit. So I, as Deputy Director of the organisation, was brought in to bring a cohesive visitor experience across the site. And that meant I lead different teams that look after all of our people touch points. So visitors learning, public engagement volunteers and then everything that sits behind that holistically to give people a great visit or to support them in a different way. So safety, security facilities interpretation, that comes under my remit as well, because it's supporting that visitor experience ultimately. So it's quite a kind of unique role. It's really dynamic. Every single day is different. Can go from planning our ten year strategy to what's going to happen in the next ten minutes because the toilets have all overflown. 

Frances Sampayo: So it's really dynamic role and just like the garden. So it's great fun here. 

Kelly Molson: Yeah, it sounds it as well. So I think that when we spoke a few weeks ago, I came away from the call just thinking, wow, the remit of what you have there is quite phenomenal, the different things that you can be doing all the time. But I also thought, what a privilege it must be to be there, because, like you say, it is a living museum and it just must be incredible to see it change, literally on a daily basis. 

Frances Sampayo: Yeah, it's amazing. So we're recording this just after our Easter weekend, and I had a great time on Sunday, were out in the garden helping people do their Planet Hero trail to learn about how to be more sustainable. And the tulips just got a little bit of sun and suddenly they all opened up and they were just really expressive, dancing kind of around, and then a cloud came over and they all closed up again and you just think, I don't have a garden, I didn't grow up with a garden, grew up in a flat. And so you just get to see things that you never get to see before. 

Frances Sampayo: And it's been a real privilege to get to learn how the garden operates over the year and to see there are plants now that I think I can't wait until May, because I'll get to see that in flower and it's really amazing. 

Kelly Molson: Wow. Well, that's kind of what we're going to talk about today, because as an organisation, you've been on a bit of a transformative journey with your public programming, and a lot of that is about kind of education and getting people to kind of understand what you have there and how things grow and how that all works together. But I kind of want to just go back and talk about, what the starting point for this journey? How did that come about, where did that start? 

Frances Sampayo: Yeah, and it really has been a journey. So I joined the garden back in 2018 and we had a really established programme of walks, talks and workshops. So quite a formal learning programme. And it was really great, really established, always sold well. And I went on a conference with LEAF, which is the London Environmental Education Forum, and as I was talking to people, they heard I was from Chelsea Physic Garden, and they go, “Oh, I love that workshop you do. We do one similar.” And I started to understand that actually, our programme had been an inspiration point for a lot of people, which is great, we love a bit of professional learning, but of course, that's our competitors. 

Frances Sampayo: So that was a starting point for me to think, we need to think about something new and then we have the kind of emergence of the experience economy. And we had retailers on the King's road, like Anthropology, running wreath making sessions, floristry sessions. And it really alerted me to the fact that, actually, if we didn't diversify our programme, if we didn't start thinking a bit differently, not only were our competitors going to catch up, but actually other sites that we would never have thought of as competitors because of the new kind of economic model. So, yeah, it was a really important moment for us to start thinking differently. 

Kelly Molson: That's crazy, isn't it? Because that's the comparison that was made quite a lot, I think, during and after the pandemic, is that attractions, you're now competing with things like Netflix, and you would never have considered that before. So that's really interesting to hear you make that kind of comparison to retail. And that's not something that I would have considered before either. 

Frances Sampayo: No, it was amazing. I wanted to sign up for a lot of these in person classes. I'm the kind of heritage person and I'm being taken by the retail model, so I've got to try and bring it back. So, yeah, that was a big starting point. And, yeah, as you say, kind of Netflix. You can sit and watch, you could sit on YouTube and just watch a plant grow and on a time lapse for 20 minutes and you say, “Oh, no, actually, you want to get out into nature. So how are we going to get those people here?”

Kelly Molson:  Yeah. So what kind of objectives did you set for the programme? 

Frances Sampayo: So I've got to be honest, I'm not the best at kind of setting formal objectives, particularly, I think, because this programme was really around culture change and I think whenever you bring people into doing a cultural shift within an organisation, they're going to bring new ideas. So I didn't set kind of formal objectives and say, we're going to achieve 20% increase in this or that. I've done that in other areas, but it didn't feel right to do that with our public programme. So what we did instead was talk about giving people more kind of creativity to create new programmes. So kind of, what can we do that's new that we haven't done before? What have you always really wanted to try but haven't been able to? Because this is the time for us to try and fail and learn and adapt. 

Frances Sampayo: And actually, what sits behind that the kind of team don't always pick up on, is you're introducing a feedback cycle and you're saying, actually, we're going to evaluate everything. And we haven't necessarily had that culture where we listen to what people responded to within our sessions that they liked, that they didn't like. So we wanted to start that feedback loop and then ultimately, we wanted to future proof our programme. So we need new audiences, we've got to diversify our model, become financially sustainable. So those are the kind of key areas I really wanted to push, but I didn't kind of set them as specific objectives. They all kind of developed naturally as more people get involved, we're able to expand the ambition. 

Frances Sampayo: And now, five years on, we've got our own public programme manager, so it's really become embedded and they're going to again challenge us and push us up a whole other level. So it's been really brilliant to let it grow, but set a kind, of course, I guess, for how we want to deliver it and how we want to change. 

Kelly Molson: I'm really interested to know what's changed. So what was a kind of typical programme previously and what does your programme look like now? Like, how brave have people been? 

Frances Sampayo: Yeah, we've been pretty brave. It's been a big change. So I think the first area where there's really been a shift is moving away from an academic forum. So being a learning space for 350 years, that really carried into our learning programme and all of our public programmes. So even sessions where were getting people to do botanical soap making, that started with a formal lecture, really, about what the botanicals were you were going to use, why they were so brilliant. So we've really shifted away from that and we put that same information into our sessions, but not in a formal way. It's much more informal, much more exciting, and people learn through connecting with the plant itself, as opposed to being told with a presentation and some slides, this is how brilliant lemon is, or things like that. 

Frances Sampayo: So that shift away from the academic has been really fundamental, but you might not necessarily notice that kind of straight away with the session that's more in terms of the content. We've also looked at our accessibility, so we've got a broader range of price points now, a broader range of length of sessions. So we used to have sessions that were a full day or a half day and that was it. Now people are a lot more time poor, so we've got some sessions that are an hour, some that are 2 hours, a full day or even multiple days, but people can select now what they want and there's a much better variety. So we're seeing we get a lot more visitors come onto a kind of two hour session instead of a four hour half day. 

Frances Sampayo: And our youth panel also talked to us about the different price points and making the journey a lot easier to buying a ticket. So we've got lower price points now. And also you don't have to buy a ticket to the garden on top of buying a ticket to an event, which has been a big shift. So those are kind of some behind the scenes things, which are pretty bold, but not the kind of glamorous thing. But in terms of that kind of more dynamic programming, we did a lot during the pandemic because of being an outdoor attraction, so we had some ideas that were kind of on the back burner that were able to bring forward. So were able to launch Plant Fair when outdoor retail returned, which was brilliant. 

Frances Sampayo: We were able to introduce a series of concerts on the lawn called The Lawn Session, so those music nights have stayed, and also Family Theatre, which we hadn't done before in the garden, so we now do that every year. So were able to bring in some really new programming, which was really bold for us as a site, because we hadn't really connected with those audiences or felt like audiences that would go to a music night would come to the garden. So that was really great fun. But the most bold programme we launched was our Dash of Lavender programme, so that's LGBTQ plus History Month celebration, and that happens in February. So we've got an exhibition in the garden and then lots of different events, from poetry nights to drawing workshops. 

Frances Sampayo: And this year, our volunteer guides also got involved and they launched tours around the garden to tell people more about LGBTQ history and horticulture, which was really fantastic, because that, again, is an example of growing support for the programme bit by bit, and people saying, “Okay, now I understand what this is. I want to get more involved.” And we've been supported through that by an amazing partner called Sixto, who runs Queer botany, who's just a great presence within the sector and doing amazing things. I'm sure everyone wants to work with them now, which is really frustrating for us. 

Frances Sampayo: We love Six, though, but, yeah, that's been the kind of most dynamic programme that we've introduced and has had the biggest impact, but because we'd done all of those smaller steps, that it felt like a really natural progression for the site to do this and it's been really accepted and understood. Whereas previously, if we'd said we're going to do a History Month celebrating LGBTQ plus individuals, people really wouldn't have understood it. So it's made a huge impact. 

Kelly Molson: That is phenomenal to hear. It's really interesting. As you were talking, we just go back to the start of this section where you were talking about the soap making, and I thought, “Oh, that sounds really interesting. I'd probably like to do that.” But I probably wouldn't have booked onto the previous incarnation of it because I would have thought, "Maybe this is just a bit not for me". I'm kind of doing it because I'm interested in the fragrances and how you make them and that kind of side of it. I'm not sure I want to be lectured about the botanicals themselves, so it might put me off, so I guess it might put a lot of other people off. So have your audiences changed since you introduced the new programme? 

Kelly Molson: And it would be interesting to know if you set out and defined what you wanted those new audiences to be and how if you've achieved that. 

Frances Sampayo: Oh, great question. So we did do some kind of planning of new audiences and who we wanted to engage, but we also wanted to make sure we brought our existing audience and our members kind of along with us and make sure that they felt really taken care of. So, in terms of our existing audience, particularly our members, they're 50% of our visitor profile post pandemic, and they're predominantly white, female, cisgendered, able bodied, or potentially have kind of corrected sight through using glasses. They're retired. So that's our kind of core audience, if you will. So we wanted to make sure that we really supported them as well, so they have had some new benefits introduced, like a quiet hour at the garden in the morning, so kind of private access before everyone else comes in. 

Frances Sampayo: We also started running coffee mornings for them, social isolation is a really big challenge within the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea. So we've got some older members of our membership community, so that helps them get involved. And they also get early access to a lot of our member events or a lot of our public programme events. So they feel like they're getting a lot of special treatment, but it's a lot of stuff that we would have been doing anyway. And I think that's helped them kind of come with us on the journey as we've brought in a lot of new audiences. So people under 40, families, people living within walking distance of the garden within a 30 minutes catchment, that's actually really quite a disruptive audience to bring in against that traditional model. 

Frances Sampayo: So we've got people who live in Wandsworth, Lambeth, Vauxhall, all really local to us, who wouldn't see the garden as a place for them. We've got people living in Battersea who are part of the new, amazing community in Battersea with all these developments, but they've got the park right next to them and we're on the other side of the Thames, so why do they want to come here? So it's really helped us establish we are here for local people. We've got things that interest under 40s, we've got things that interest families, but throughout all of that, we've really considered how we're going to bring our core audience on that journey with us. So, yeah, we've tried to balance it, but it has really changed. 

Kelly Molson: Were you worried about how, when you talked about what your existing kind of demographic was for your members and your audience, were you quite worried about how they might react to some of the new ideas that you were bringing in? 

Frances Sampayo: I wasn't really worried, if I'm completely honest. I think I knew that we were going to take care of them and I knew that some people would appreciate that and some people would really enjoy coming into the garden for a quiet hour in the morning or coming to a coffee morning. So I knew that some of the visitors that are part of that membership community would really enjoy that. And I thought, if they don't, that is kind of up to them to self select and not come to the garden. But ultimately we have to change because you can't exist for 350 years by standing still. And I think that is quite brave, I think, to say that. And it's not dismissive of our kind of core audience or our existing audience, it's just saying there's space for everyone, there's space for more people here. 

Frances Sampayo: And if you're not okay with that, you've got your quiet hour, you can come then. We're trying to accommodate you. But actually, if you want to come to Chelsea History Festival weekend, where we've got circus performers and a military band in the garden, come along to that. That's great. You're going to really have a good time if you want. So we kind of accepted that we might lose some visitors and I, unfortunately, sometimes get complaints from people about, "I've ruined the garden or I've ruined the atmosphere", but for every complaint I get like that, I get 20, "I would never have come here if you weren't doing this. And I discovered the garden because you had a poetry evening and I thought that was amazing, or I came on the lawn sessions for a date and now I'm coming back to see the collection in the day." 

Frances Sampayo: So it really is worth it and you just have to be kind of resilient and true to what you're doing and why and stick to it, because we're kind of here for people and we want as many people to enjoy the garden as possible. So there has to be a bit of disruption and a bit of change.

Kelly Molson: Yeah. I mean, we all like to say that we don't like change, though, don't we? You're always going to get somebody who really don't like change and it's really uncomfortable for them, but you can't stay the same for those people. How do you think? Because this has all happened over quite a short period of time, really, hasn't it? I mean, we can throw COVID into the mix and I think it goes without saying, really, that everybody became a bit braver during that time, because it was a time of, "Well, let's just try it. What else could go wrong?" Right? But what do you think that you've been able to kind of change and adapt so quickly? 

Frances Sampayo: Yeah, so I think it's all about people. We've got a really amazing team here and they're really committed to what we're doing. I kind of label it as persistent, professional radicalism, which people enjoy, but that's kind of what we're doing. We want to make change, so we have to be persistent. We'll consider the fact that some visitors might not like it, but others will, and we've got data to support us and then we're kind of radical because that's just what we're doing, being really bold as we approach things. And this team of people that I get to work with, really kind of support that and want to work in that way. At the start, weren't all saying we're being radical at work and we're being really bold. People weren't necessarily comfortable with that. 

Frances Sampayo: So there were a lot of conversations that needed to have with people around, giving them permission to explore new things and say, "What are you excited about that we've never done in the garden before, that you think would be really cool that you'd want to come to, or what do you want to do?" And gradually people started understanding that actually there was permission for them to try new things and to work in new ways. So one of the learning team really wanted to learn more about podcasting. So brilliant. There's a training course on podcast. You go on that, you tell me why it would be good for the garden and if you can convince me, I'll back you up and we'll make sure that we kind of get this going and get you the equipment you need and the space you need. 

Frances Sampayo: So were able to do that and now we've got a really great podcast that's available in all good podcast places that you can listen to about the garden and it helps people that aren't here connect with it. And that just came from a mad idea from one of the teams saying, "Actually, I'd really like to learn a bit more about this, and were able to just kind of go with it." So empowering the team has been really key to that. And then also for me, I'm really lucky that our director, Sue Medway is really supportive of kind of what we're doing. And our trustee board as well have kind of become used to me coming in and saying, “Oh, we're now teaching children how to make broomsticks for Halloween.”

Kelly Molson: It's such a great idea.

Frances Sampayo: So it's so great and it's a sustainable way of using twigs, things like that. So we use all kind of organic well, all materials from the garden. They learn how to make them and yeah, cool, they get to pretend that they've got magic powers and can fly around the garden, but also they can take that home, they can help with the housework, they know a bit more about sustainable cleaning, don't have to buy a new broom. So there's all kinds of things that we're doing and people have just kind of accepted now that we're going to do things a bit differently. And when they open their kind of board papers, there might be something a bit mad in there, but they really enjoy it. So it's great. 

Kelly Molson: That is a brilliant idea and it kind of sums up the ethos of the whole place, right? You're teaching children to do something really fun with the things that you have there and they're learning about sustainability. It's absolutely perfect. Yeah, I really love that. I should probably book onto that podcasting workshop that you talked about as well. Add that to my list of things to do. When we talked a few weeks ago as well, I think you mentioned, I think you kind of mentioned, like, the 80 20 rule that we talk about quite frequently. About 80% of what you do is kind of in fixed once the programme is decided, but you have that kind of 20% of flexibility where if something is relevant, you can go, “Hey, we've got a little bit of space here, let's put something on.” So it's nice to be able to have that level of flexibility and kind of agileness about what you do. 

Frances Sampayo: Yeah, definitely. So, again, when I first joined, actually, that was something that were kind of not confident in. So by November, the whole following year would be planned and then the walks, talks and workshops, leaflets that were produced would talk you through the whole year. So we'd printed the whole year in advance. That was it. This is the programme, we're sticking to it. So now we kind of print only kind of two or three months in advance. And we also use QR codes a lot to say just check our website for what's happening. And that really gives us the space to be agile. So we now programme 80% and then it gives us that space that if you pick up a really amazing phone call from someone, can do an event. 

Frances Sampayo: We get a lot of really interesting artistic projects, we also get some really amazing kind of sell out events and it's actually we've got to have capacity to run that event again because it was so popular. So, yeah, that's been a really big shift, is just having that kind of 80 20 and it also helps the team with capacity management, I think, because sometimes when we get approached for things like we had this really amazing approach for kind of a shadow puppet theatre to come into the garden and it was a really interesting opportunity for us. It would have been a bit of a kind of learning curve, but we just didn't have capacity. 

Frances Sampayo: And it was really good to be able to say to the team, “Actually, we've already factored in five new events in the next four months, so do we think that we can build this one in as well? Because those are five new events that we haven't run before.” So it just made us a bit more kind of structured in our decision making process of what we could take on and couldn't. And so that went on the back burner and we said we potentially be available in the future. But yeah, it just makes us have decisions that are kind of really grounded, I guess, from what I'm saying. It seems like we just say yes to everything, but sometimes we do say no and think about whether something's right for us or whether we've got capacity for it. And 80 20 has really helped. 

Kelly Molson: Yeah, that felt like a considered no, not a reflex no, but actually with other things that we have on, we don't need to do this right now. We'd love to, but we don't need to. And that's a good position to be in, to be able to make that kind of decision. I would love to know what you've learned about it all and what's the one thing that surprised you the most about the process that you've been through? 

Frances Sampayo: Well, I've learned a lot. It's been a really amazing journey and obviously I've learned a lot just about our collection and from our horticultural team. But aside from that, it's really been about listening to people that your team are going to make you better, they're going to make your programme better, and sometimes you have to listen to challenge and critique just as much as you have to listen to positivity. I think that gives you a lot to learn from. And again, that's that feedback cycle and loop from earlier, I think it's really important to be excited and that makes your team excited about things and want to go the extra mile and put in the energy that it takes to get these things off the ground. Really about empowerment, that's been the key to the success, is just having an empowered team. 

Frances Sampayo: And I think particularly recently, I've been reflecting on just how important it is to be grateful. And I think I've learned a lot about being grateful not only to the team, but also to our visitors and our audiences that come here and the fact that they've chosen to come to us and making sure that we're grateful for that. So those have kind of been some recent learnings that I've been reflecting on. And then in terms of surprise, well, I think something that I wish I could have used as my answer to your earlier question about objectives and kind of what you set out to achieve actually came as a surprise to me. 

Frances Sampayo: So we've had at least three staff members and more volunteers cite the public programme as the way that they discovered the garden and also as part of their motivation for joining and wanting to apply. Yeah, so it's been really interesting, and I wish that I'd kind of gone into it at the beginning and kind of said, "Well, yeah, well, this is going to lead to an increase in applicants for jobs and diversity of applicants for jobs", but I just didn't really consider it as an outcome. And it's been great. And actually, one of our Cafe team who cited the Dash of Lavender programme as a motivation for joining went so above and beyond. During Dash of Lavender this year, they had the inclusive pride flag all over. 

Frances Sampayo: We had a whole range of lavender themed, like macaroons and desserts, and they really took it to another level, because they felt like we, as an organisation, were accepting of this programme and therefore would just really support them to deliver what they felt was their interpretation of the programme. And we did, even if that did mean having to have lavender themed macaroons every day, which is a really hard life. 

Kelly Molson: That sounds really tough. 

Frances Sampayo: Oh, no, what a shame. But, yeah, it was just brilliant because they really took it and ran with it and that just makes us better and hopefully our visitors will enjoy that as well. But, yeah, that was completely unexpected. 

Kelly Molson: That's such an amazing outcome, isn't it? And like you said, completely unexpected that they've really taken ownership of it. They've taken ownership of the programme and put more into it than you ever could have imagined. 

Frances Sampayo: Yeah, because I could never have done that. And I think I'm really lucky every single day here, because I work with such amazing people. I get to say, "Oh, brilliant. I get to represent everything that people have done and achieved and come up with". And that's just one of those completely unexpected outcomes, which is delicious and great fun. I think they even created a cocktail for out of hours events that transformed. So the cocktail started pink and then they poured in a blue gin and then it turned into a lavender colour. 

Kelly Molson: They really thought about it. 

Frances Sampayo: It was amazing. And then the visitors that came here, it's just such an added benefit. So, yeah, creativity comes from everywhere and it's brilliant to see.

Kelly Molson: That is brilliant. Yeah, that's another question, actually, is unexpected outcomes. So that was one of the unexpected outcomes, which you had no idea that it could have been an objective that was achieved. But there's been some other things that have come out of this as well, hasn't there? Can you tell us a little bit about them? 

Frances Sampayo: Yeah, and it comes back to that idea that 80 20 and just having space to pick up the phone and have those conversations. So we do a lot more working in collaboration than we've ever done before. And I think it's maybe because we've caught people's attention as a partner and people are interested in what we're doing now, not just from that kind of LEAF forum, but a lot more dynamic organisations, not just kind of botanically rooted organisations. So many plant puns. I have to apologise, it's just what. Happens when you want to kit. 

Kelly Molson: We're pun agnostic on this brilliant show.

Frances Sampayo: Yeah, one of my favourite activities that we've launched is the Chelsea History Festival, which we run in collaboration with the National Army Museum and the Royal Hospital, which are our neighbours along the Royal Hospital road. And the three of our sites are really different. We have really different audience bases, but we've come together for this week long festival each year and because of that, we've had a military band in the garden that would never have happened if we didn't collaborate and weren't open to collaborating. We've seen a real kind of increase in visitors because of that. And what's been interesting is a lot of visitors go to the National Army Museum because they have a soft play, so there's a lot of families that go there who now come here afterwards, and so they're actually going to both sites.Yeah. 

Kelly Molson: Oh, that’s great.

Frances Sampayo: Whereas before, they might have just gone to the Army Museum and not known that were here. So it's really brilliant for us to be doing that work in partnership. And the Royal Hospital are doing more and more to open up. Obviously, their primary function is to be a care home for the Chelsea Pensioners, that's their priority. But they are doing more to connect with the local community and so we're able to facilitate that, maybe host some things for them and just continue to work as a trio of sites as opposed to three independent institutions, which is really exciting moving forward. I think it's really going to change how we all operate. And so that's kind of one collaboration that we just wouldn't have happened if weren't open to working in that way. 

Frances Sampayo: And we've also launched Crossing the Floors with David Hingley, who's been on the podcast. I'm sure many people know that initiative to kind of link up front of house teams to get experience of working in different sites. 

Kelly Molson: Such a great idea. 

Frances Sampayo: It's such an amazing idea. And we're kind of completely different as a site, as an outdoor site. So a lot of people working in places might never have got to come to an outdoor site before. And they get to kind of see how we programme things, how we deliver activities in a very different way, very seasonal way, as opposed to kind of exhibition, programme driven. So that's been really interesting. And, yeah, other collaborations have just come from picking up the phone. We do a lot of work with the University of Westminster now to help blind and partially sighted people have a multisensory experience in a botanical garden, which doesn't sound you think? Well, yeah, of course it's multisensory being in a garden, but actually, you can't touch a lot of our collection. A lot of it's poisonous. 

Frances Sampayo: It's going to do you a lot of harm if you touch it. So, yeah, how do we kind of layer that in a safe way? So there's so much that can come from collaborating with different sites and, again, that just is going to improve everything we do here and we learn a lot. 

Kelly Molson: That's so good, isn't it? And I guess all of those things, by changing the programme, you've changed the profile of the garden and you've raised your kind of perception, or changed the perception of it to so many different audiences. And now those audiences will go to the attractions and the places that are next door to them, and yet you don't suffer any visitor loss from that. And likewise, because they're now coming to two of the different ones on the same day, it's just perfect. 

Frances Sampayo: Yeah, it's great. And hopefully in the future we'll be able to keep building on that as three sites and continue to work together. We're an independent charity, so every kind of penny we earn, we have to earn ourselves. NAM have got a different funding model, as have the Royal Hospital, so we've got a lot to learn as well from each other as organisations of how we approach things and what we need to consider, so it's even better for organisational learning as well. It's just going to help elevate everyone. And as you said earlier, I think people became a lot bolder following the pandemic in terms of sharing and wanting to help each other, whereas before were all very isolated, so that's really helped things. 

Kelly Molson: It's brilliant. Thank you for coming on to share this with us today. It's been so lovely to talk to you about it. We always ask our guests to share a book that they love, so have you prepared something for us today? 

Frances Sampayo: Yes, so that was a really hard question and I thought about the book that I've gifted the most. So last year I read Black Tudors by Miranda Kaufman. I don't know if anyone's recommended it previously. 

Kelly Molson: No, I don't think so. 

Frances Sampayo: So it's a really fantastic history book. And as someone who's worked at sites with kind of Tudor history in the past, it completely blew my mind to hear about how dynamic the range of black people were in Britain and beyond in the Tudor times, because we really don't get to hear about that. I think, kind of in traditional academic circles. So it's a great read and I think I gifted about five copies of it last year, so I think people would it's just brilliant and I hope someone gets to enjoy it. 

Kelly Molson: Well, listeners, as ever, if you want to listen, if you want to win a copy of Frances's book, you know what to do. Head over to our Twitter account. And if you retweet this episode announcement with the words, I want Frances's book, then you might get the chance for us to gift you us to gift it to you, not Frances. She can save her pennies. Thank you so much for coming on. It's been such a pleasure. I don't know, you've sold it to me. I mean, I want to come and make a broomstick and some soap. 

Frances Sampayo: Yeah, soap and a broomstick. 

Kelly Molson: That's like my perfect day out. 

Frances Sampayo: That's our tagline for 2024, actually. Just visit garden. Soap and a broomstick. 

Kelly Molson: Sold. I'll order my ticket in advance. Thanks, Frances. 

Frances Sampayo: Thanks, Kelly. 

Kelly Molson: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned. 

Skip The Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website, rubbercheese.com/podcast.

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Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is  Kelly Molson, Founder of Rubber Cheese.

Download the Rubber Cheese 2022 Visitor Attraction Website Report - the first digital benchmark statistics for the attractions sector.

If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website rubbercheese.com/podcast.

If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this podcast

Competition ends July 31st 2023. The winner will be contacted via Twitter.

Show references:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/miloft/

https://thebusinesscreative.com/

Mark Lofthouse is a themed entertainment creative and digital designer. During his 16-year career within the themed entertainment industry he's had the opportunities to work with theme parks, heritage sites and leisure facilities across Europe - creating fantastical experiences that wow audiences. 

His background spans varied roles from operations management of theme parks and head of business for a manufacturing business right through to the lead creative for scare mazes - this combination of creative and operational knowledge has helped him carve out a varied career that now sees him working with the biggest names in theme parks!

The Business Creative are a Creative Agency specialising in entertainment experiences that connect an audience to a brand, in a real life environment.

Transcriptions:

Kelly Molson: Welcome to Skip The Queue, a podcast for people working in or working with visitor attractions. I'm your host, Kelly Molson. Each episode, I speak with industry experts from the attractions world. These chats are fun, informative and hopefully always interesting. 

In today's episode, I speak with Mark Lofthouse, an Immersive experience specialist. We discuss the career path Mark took to work in the sector and the four pillars you need to succeed as a creative designer in the theme park industry. 

If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify and all the usual channels by searching Skip The Queue. 

Kelly Molson: It is so good to have you on the podcast. I feel like we've been talking about doing this for ages and we're finally here. Welcome. 

Mark Lofthouse: Thank you so much. Yeah, it does seem like it has been forever ago, doesn't it? Actually, that we started talking, but we're here, life is good. That is all we can ask for. 

Kelly Molson: Exactly. And we're going to have a good chat and good things are going to come from it. But first, I need to ask you some icebreaker questions. So what ingredients would you go for in your perfect sandwich? 

Mark Lofthouse: You know what I'm a bit of a fan of? I like chicken, but spiced chicken. I love a bit of cake in my life, so I'd have that. I'd have jalapenos on it, turkey, bit of lettuce, some onions, a bit of chorizo, if they've got it. Yeah, but that's like my perfect sandwich. And lots of chipotle sauce. The Southwest chipotle sauce is like to die for. It's my favourite thing ever. 

Kelly Molson: I love it. Mark likes a bit of hot stuff there. Yeah, you had me at chorizo. Not going to lie, you had me at chorizo. All right. Okay, good. If you could enter the Olympics for anything, what would you be Olympic level at? And when I say anything, I'm saying, like, the Olympics could be, like you could be like the Olympic baker or like, the Olympic complaining champion. What would you be like Olympic level at? 

Mark Lofthouse: I think I'd be like maybe jumping to conclusions. I think something like napping. Do you know what I think? Genuinely think that would be the best Olympic sport ever, wouldn't it? 

Kelly Molson: Olympic level napping? 

Mark Lofthouse: Yeah, because you know what, I work that much and I'm always on the go all of the time when I have a nap, I feel like I'm the best person ever at napping. So I think I genuinely would be the best at that. I'd win gold. 

Kelly Molson: Are you like one of these people that a nap anywhere? If I said to you, now you can go and have a 20 minutes nap if you want, you'd be like, yeah, I've done. And 20 minutes later you'd wake up, because it would take for me if someone gave me 20 minutes nap. I'd be like, oh, I've got to think about that for a while. And then I'll lay down. But I might look at my phone and then I might get a five minute nap out of that 20 minutes. 

Mark Lofthouse: Yeah. If you give me the opportunity to go and have a nap because it doesn't come around very often, I will be very good at that. I'm a very efficient napper. 

Kelly Molson: Okay, good. I like that. Efficient napper. Olympic level napper. 

Mark Lofthouse: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Gold medal. 

Kelly Molson: All right, final icebreaker. I would like to know what your favourite visitor attraction is. It's a really horrible question that I ask people who come on a visitor attraction focused podcast, but I'm intrigued to know what yours is. 

Mark Lofthouse: Right, I have two kind of contrasting ones. I'm always a fan of theme parks and specifically Fantasy Land in Germany is probably my favourite. And I think it's because it's quite hard to get that true immersive, which obviously that word is batted around so much, but to get that true escapism feel is really difficult to come by. But the park seems to do it seamlessly and I think I've always been such a huge fan and in admiration as well, of what they managed to achieve. So that is one of them. But I also love going to kind off the beaten track places that you think, you know what, let's give it a go, let's go and try and do it. And then it becomes one of the best places to visit. 

Mark Lofthouse: So one of them, as much as it's a visual attraction, it's kind of a natural attraction as well. So the fairy pools in the Isle of Skye, now, it's becoming more and more popular because of Instagram, but it's literally just a little ravine that comes through off the mountain with water coming through it. And it was the best day out I've ever had. Literally spent the entire day jumping in and out of natural pools and waterfalls. And honestly, it was just the best visitor attraction I've been to. But it was such a natural setting. It was completely natural. Wasn't man made at all, apart from the car park, that was it. And it was just the best. So if you're ever in the Isle of Skye, you have to go and do it. 

Kelly Molson: That sounds absolutely a bit of me, Mark. What an amazing place. 

Mark Lofthouse: Yeah. And the photos that I've got are just the best as well. I love them. I love looking back at them.

Kelly Molson: Instagrammable moments it is all about. Oh, good. All right.All right. I like that. Okay. Your unpopular opinion I'm going to feel. 

Mark Lofthouse: About for saying this, and my connections on LinkedIn, please don't judge me for saying it. My unpopular opinion is that I'm much more excited about the products and experiences that Universal are creating over Disney. I know that it is quite controversial. So, again, this is kind of splitting hers because I love both of the companies, but I think from a proposition point of view, that the level of detail, the type of attraction, type of experiences that Universal are working on as a creative team. Not just in the park, but now they're opening this Halloween Horror Nights experience in Las Vegas, where it's nowhere near their park and the new park that they're opening in the States as well. I think it's just so exciting for that company. They just seem to be growing and growing and opening new avenues of business. 

Mark Lofthouse: And I think I love Disney, and that is an understatement. But I'm so much more excited about what Universal are putting out there at the moment. But it is an incredibly unpopular opinion when you voice that because there is such this tribe mentality between Universal and Disney. But there we go. I've said it. It's out there. 

Kelly Molson: All right, listeners, we need to know what your opinion is on Mark's. Are you agreeing with them or is this an unpopular opinion? Tweet us and let us know. Brave man, Mark, for the industry that you work in, brave. 

Mark Lofthouse: I probably just shot myself in the foot there. 

Kelly Molson: Maybe a tiny bit, but tell us what you do. 

Mark Lofthouse: I kind of a jack of all trades when it comes to visitor attractions and themed attractions, really. So, by heart, I'm a creative. I've been based in this for about 16 years now, working as a freelance creative for theme parks, heritage sites, leisure facilities. And that will be anything from coming up with marketing material, graphic design, digital design, right through to project management, event management, and overseeing creative concepts for them specifically in events, primarily. So, yeah, I've been doing that for 16 years now. So it covers such a wide variety of things to do. So one day I might be working with the Business Creative, who's an amazing creative agency who I work with a lot, and coming up with kind of concepts for Haven and Tui and these kind of leisure facilities. 

Mark Lofthouse: But then the day after, I might be working on a terrifying horror attraction in the USA, coming up with a branding, coming up with the proposition and what that is. So it's so varied, the work that I do, but I'm kind of an operational mindset in a creative body is the best way to explain it. 

Kelly Molson: It's a really weird combination. When we first got into contact, I kind of very much saw you as like a designer, like a graphic designer kind of thing. And I was like, “Oh, well, I can really relate to some of the stuff that you do because that was my background as well”. And then when we started talking, I was like, gosh, your role is really complex and quite unique in what you do. 

Mark Lofthouse: Yeah, absolutely. I think I've kind of just collected skills over the time that I've been working. So it's things from I've been a digital designer for a company and that's all I did. I created Decks, I did graphic design for companies and then the job I got after that was the operations manager of a theme park. So it's just that leap and that jump is really hard to explain to people. But I've got quite analytical mind and I've got quite a, like three put is my thing at theme park. So always having to look at efficiencies, especially in operations. So it was really weird for me to take the leap from creator to go, “do you know what, I'm going to go and do that”. And I just did it. 

Mark Lofthouse: I took a leap of faith, did it, thought I could do it, and it turned out really well for me. And it was such a I learned so many skills by doing it that it's kind of second nature now. So I've got a kind of desired skill set, which is operational mindset, but somebody who understands creative, who also understands the operations of it. Because it's the same with many companies where you have these incredible creative people who work there but it's really hard for them to understand how their creative idea can actually form a live experience because it's so different to go yet that works creatively on a piece of paper or on a computer. But then to actually go, well, that won't work because the corridors are too narrow to have that amount of guests passing through it and things. 

Mark Lofthouse: Whereas I kind of do all of it from beginning to end, which is a lot of work. But no, it's really good. It's just things that I've started to pick up and do and it's just kind of second age of doing now. It's just what I know. I don't know how to do any different apart from do that really it's brilliant. 

Kelly Molson: And I love talking to people about how they take their skills and how those skills kind of form their wiggly career path. What we're going to talk about today is about developing a creative career in theme park industry. And we're going touch a little bit on the mindset that you probably need for that as well. So my creative career started at I was at school. I had to pick what I wanted to do for my GCSEs. There was a media studies module that I was like, "Oh, this is really interesting for me". So there was an element of design. I was always kind of like into art very much on the kind of design, like the graphics and kind of illustration side. So there was a graphic design module, there was a photography module. There was like a media studies module. 

Kelly Molson: So I guess it was like really early filmmaking and things like that and all of those things. I was like, "Yeah, this is great". On from my GCSEs, I then focused on graphic design. So went to the local college, did my BTEC National Diploma. And then after you did that, I could either go and do the HND which was you apply to go to university or back then, this is quite a long time ago. It wasn't as difficult to get junior designer roles without those qualifications. So you could kind of, “What do you want to do? Do you want to go and do another couple of years at Uni or do you want to go and get a job? 

Kelly Molson: And I chose to go and get a job and kind of then my career went blah, blah, and we can talk about that another time. How did you with your mixed kind of bag of skills, how did you kind of start your creative career? 

Mark Lofthouse: It's really scary how similar we both are. So I in school was the same, got to buy options. I'd always since being a child, I've been obsessed with theme parks, always. And it always takes back to I always remember going to it was when Morecambe Frontierland was open, so we're talking early 90s. And I've got such strong core memories from that time going to theme parks. We used to go there quite a lot. Every summer we used to head over that way to the lakes and I've always been obsessed with it, so I always knew when I was in school I wanted to get involved somehow. Don't know how, I couldn't even predict how that was going to happen, but I was going to be involved. I was determined. 

Mark Lofthouse: I knew I was going to be involved within the themed attraction industry specifically. Don't know how, but I got to choose my options same as you pick graphic design, because I knew I was all right with the computer, I knew what I was doing, kind of found the way around. I did my entire coursework. Everything was on a theme park, branding theme park, obviously branding a theme park, currently park, marks park, collateral and that type of thing. I did really bad in my GCSE, I will admit. I didn't do the best. I didn't knuckle down when I needed to. I didn't spend the time regrettably. I wish I would have, I wish I'd have kind of focused more now, but I'm not hugely academic. I like to learn through experience and I do think it's just a mix, isn't it? Whether you're one or the other? 

Kelly Molson: Well, yeah, it is. And actually it's okay if you don't do that well in your GCSEs. And I think what we're going to talk about proves that it's absolutely okay to not do that well in your GCSEs. 

Mark Lofthouse: Absolutely. I've got two cousins at the moment and they're kind of going through that struggle, go with the like, “Oh, we did really well, but we can't find this and that and the other”. I'm like, everything works out. Everything happens for a reason. Everything works out. I'm a firm believer in it. Set school didn't do the best. And then I was like, right, I'm going to go to the local college. I did media production, funnily enough, and it was during them two years that I realised I hated it and didn't want to do it anymore. I finished, I got my coursework, but I was in that weird time there where I went, “What now what do I do? Where do I go? I didn't want to go to university”. I said, I'm not academic, didn't want to go. 

Mark Lofthouse: But what I had been doing, kind of simultaneous with the college work, was I got in touch with a company who produced Halloween attractions, because I love theme parks, I love Halloween events, halloween is my favourite time of year. So I got in touch with a company who was kind of prevalent in the UK, and they still are, called Atmosphere Scare Entertainment, and they just produce Halloween events primarily for clients all over Europe. And I got in touch with them and I became a performer for them for one Halloween, which was literally me sitting in some sheets, jumping out of people. That's my extent of performance. Everyone's got to start somewhere. 

Mark Lofthouse: But I got hooked and I got hooked into seeing visitors reactions to something that you'd worked on, something that you did and how you interacted with that, and I got really hooked in it. So I then got my qualifications, left college and then just started working with the company more and more. So it became I was a performer for the first year and then I had a bit of design work the year after. Bit more, bit more, and eventually ended up scaling up to I was working freelance for them, but I was the  Deputy Creative Director of the company by the age of 21. 

Kelly Molson: Gosh, wow. Yeah, that's a great turnaround from someone a minute ago was like, I did really badly in my GCSE. I'm Deputy Creative Director by 21.  

Mark Lofthouse: The only thing that got me there was well, it was two things. And it was that undetermination. I knew I was going to do it. I enjoyed doing the work I was doing, I don't know, the same as everyone. When you enjoy doing something, you put more of yourself into it. There's a really beautiful Greek phrase called Meraki, which is to put yourself so much into something that it becomes part of you. And it's kind of just a philosophy I've always run with and I love the idea of it. So I kind of just scaled up with the company and that was kind of it. And that's how it happened. I left the company in 2017, I think it was where I became the event manager of a safari park, just because I had kind of event background and knew what I was doing. 

Mark Lofthouse: And then I had the opportunity after two years to go to Dreamland Margate to look at operations and have a look at guest experience. And I moved all the way down to Margate, lived in there for a season until the end of 2019 and then came home and the inevitable happened in February. So what happened to themed attraction? Isn't sure. What happened to entertainment? It just ceased to exist, obviously, when the pandemic hit. So I became the business operations manager of a manufacturing business, which I never thought I'd do, which was manufacturing hand sanitising liquid, which as you can imagine during that period was a very difficult job to be in. So, yeah, I did that and then that kind of leads me up to where I am now. 

Mark Lofthouse: I started working with the business creative a year back, looking after sort of the operations creative operations, and then now I'm a creative partner with them. So I develop the concepts, I work on branding, I work on decks, proposals, that type of thing for them, and help them kind of get into new business avenues, which themed entertainment, Immersive Entertainment, Immersive Theatre is primarily one that we're looking at. So that's kind of a little bit of a whirlwind tour of me. 

Kelly Molson: Gosh, I love that. Yeah, that's been really wiggly, isn’t it, if we're talking about a wiggly career. What I liked is that one of my questions was going to be, did you always think that you would work in the sector, but obviously from a really early age you were quite focused on that was going to be your thing. And I think it's really interesting because a lot of it's not. It's definitely not what I did. I didn't ever think I thought I wanted to be a designer and I'd love to be a graphic designer, but I never actually pinpointed a specific sector or a specific role, even within graphic design. And it's interesting how something that you've focused on can really define where your career goes. 

Kelly Molson: But even if you don't, actually, you can kind of come to it a little bit later with the skill set that you gain along the way. Because if I look back now, if I hadn't worked in all the different roles that I had, I probably wouldn't have made it to running my own agency because I wouldn't have had the kind of variety of skill set that I needed to kind of do that, and I wouldn't have seen all the different ways that certain agencies run and how they operate to be able to get to that point. 

Mark Lofthouse: Definitely. I think you can't learn enough. You can always absorb, you can always take advice, you can always work on yourself. And I think you don't know who you're going to bump into along the way. Like, there's some clients that when I was 17 and 18, doing graphic designs from my laptop on my knee when I was watching TV, like, we've all been there. Some clients I met there are now just incredibly huge companies who are doing entertainment around the world. And I think you don't know who you're going to bump into. You've just got to make sure that you're presenting your positive, happy, good, self and reliable to work with. Because, trust me, the person you meet when you're 17, you don't know where they're going to be in ten years. 

Mark Lofthouse: They could be owning the biggest company on earth and you don't know. And I just think it's so important to make sure that any connections that you make, you try to keep them good. You try to keep a good connection with people, because you definitely meet people who you would never expect to see them again. But actually, they probably hire your services again in the future, or you might hire those. So it's so key, I think, just absorb and learn everything you possibly can from people. And so important. 

Kelly Molson: Yeah. So it's not just about what you're learning, it's about the connections that you're making along the way as well. That's really important from asking for feedback and asking for support from people. What I wanted to ask is, what kind of support did you get along the way? So you spoke really highly of your kind of ex manager that really supported you into that role at a considerably young age to be in that role. What kind of things did they do to support you on that journey? 

Mark Lofthouse: I think a lot of it was belief that actually they just believed in what I was doing. They believed that I could do that for the company and help them as well. And I think a lot of the time they mentor me. So actually, when I was designing things, when I was 19, 20, before I started getting more involved in it, I designed things a certain way, like, for example, a Halloween attraction, I'd be designing it and I'd think it was the most terrifying, scary thing ever. And it just wasn't realistic and feasible to deliver at all. And actually, I learned so much from them putting a helping hand on my shoulder and guiding me through that process and going, “Actually, if you change this way, it'll work, because this and this.”

Mark Lofthouse: And I think having that mentorship from people and it wasn't just him. I've had it kind of through my life, and I know I've been fortunate to have that with people. But I think if you put yourself out there and say, “I need guidance, I need help,” the good people will come through and help you with it. And absolutely, I think we all work in this quite niche and small industry, and I know that there is competition for seeing companies, not a lot, but why not help people in need? And I think we've got this new generation of amazing artists coming through the ranks at the moment who have got a really good tech mind as well. And I think we need to nurture what they have. They've got this mindset that a lot of us don't have. We need to nurture that talent. 

Mark Lofthouse: We need to grow with it and help them out because they'll help us learn as well. I think it's just this whole learning circle that you might be helping someone, you might be, I was getting help at a certain age, but actually, then when I started to go back to say, but why are you doing it that way? And I kind of questioned, then he learned from me that way as well. And I think it's really key that actually it is a learning circle where if you question things as well, it really helps. And I think to kind of answer your question, I have been very fortunate. 

Mark Lofthouse: I know that I've had this kind of support throughout my career with people in so many different wide variety of industry, but it's about reaching out and connecting with them because how do they know that you need help? How do they know that you're there? You can't have this fear at all about connecting with people. And I've noticed, especially with on LinkedIn, people who are just coming out of university, people who are just going into university, they'll reach out on LinkedIn and say, "Can I have help with this?" 

Mark Lofthouse: Or "I didn't really want to ask, but can we just have a call?" And I was like, "Yeah, absolutely, go for it." Because I was in that position once and I think we all were. 

Mark Lofthouse: We've all had somebody who helps us in bad situations and I think we need to put that back out there because there's this kind of disconnect at the moment and it needs to go. We all need to help each other as much as possible to navigate the murky waters that we're currently in. 

Kelly Molson: Yeah, you're absolutely right. You've just reminded me of something that we spoke about when Danielle and Ross from Drayton Manor were on a few episodes back in. Danielle, she was super focused and she always knew that she wanted to work in the attraction sector, but she told a story about how she just basically just connected with everyone and anyone and everyone that she thought she could on LinkedIn in that sector and just asked them, just ask them for support. " "Can I come and do this for you? Can I come and do this? Or have you got any jobs? I'm really good at this. Help me." And I think that took me back a bit because I was like, it's absolutely the right thing to do. But how many, I think she was 17 at the time. How many 17 year olds would do that now? How many of them would put themselves out there to actually do that? And I think it's a good message to promote because somebody will help you. Of ten people that you contact, a couple of them will come back to you, right? That's a really good response rate and you will get that next step further along towards what you're trying to achieve. 

Mark Lofthouse: What's the worst that could happen? They ignore your message. 

Kelly Molson: Exactly. 

Mark Lofthouse: It's not the end of the world. You want to see my LinkedIn. If I want to connect with someone, or if I want to find out something or see if there's any collaboration efforts, I message every single person I want to connect with. Because why not? What is the worst that can happen? Someone's going to go, “Not today”. Doesn't affect me. 

Kelly Molson: It's what the platform's for connecting and chatting? Yeah, I've just done exactly the same. So a couple of weeks ago, I sent out about 30 DMs to people, all people that I'm connected with, but we've just never spoken. And I'm like, "Why have we never spoken? We should like, let's grab a virtual coffee." I've got calls booked in with, like, 15 of those people. I mean, shout out to the other 15 people who have ignored me, but, you know, that's fine. Like, what's the worst that can happen? They don't come back to you. People are busy, like, they're not always going to respond, but you might just hear at the right time with the right person. I've got a brilliant oh, my God, I've got a brilliant case study of that. 

Kelly Molson: So when we first started this podcast so we started this podcast in the middle of 2019. We did the first episode and that first season ran until, I think it was a thing, until the February March of 2020. And then were like, "Oh, my God, the world has ended. What is going on? Is anyone going to listen to a podcast without visitor attractions?" They're all shut and I was like, "no, actually, do you know what? People need something now. They need something uplifting, actually. If I can get people on that are willing to talk about the exact experience that they're going for, now, this is perfect, right? That's going to help loads of people.” 

Kelly Molson: And the people that I reached out to, genuinely, I was sending emails going, oh, God, I feel sick sending that email. They're going to look at it and go, who the h*** are they? Like, why would I go on your podcast? Everybody said yes. Honestly, everybody said yes. I messaged Lee Cockerel, the Ex VP of Disney on LinkedIn, and said, "Listen, just massive fan. We've got this podcast. Would you be up for chatting on it? It would mean the world to us." And he was like, "Yeah, absolutely." I could not believe it. Couldn't believe it. So you just take a chance. 

Mark Lofthouse: Do you know what? I think the fear of the unknown is worse than the fear of clicking send on a message and you need to get over it. Everyone does. And I think I've been in that position. I was. Like, "Oh, my, I can't connect with that. Imagine you're at Disney." That is, just say no.  And I think putting yourself out there is so important. I think there's obviously little tips and tricks that you can do on LinkedIn, but I do think you just need to put yourself out there and I think people will more than likely help and I think everyone's going to somewhere. And I think my advice for people starting in the industry wanting to get into it is connect with people, chat with people, ask for 10 or 15 minutes of their time. 

Mark Lofthouse: It's not a lot to jump on a call and if people say no, that's absolutely fine, move on to somebody else. I'll just do what we do and copy and paste the message and send it to loads of people. I'm joking. I don't really do that. 

Kelly Molson: I personalise all of my messages, Mark, thank you.  

Mark Lofthouse: I do. 

Kelly Molson: You’ve defined that you have 4 pillars that you think you need to succeed in the industry. And I really want to talk about this. So we've got mindset, hard work, creativity and feedback. And we've talked a little bit about feedback, but I do want to come circle back to that. Can you kind of just talk us through those four pillars and explain kind of what you mean about those and why they're important for succeeding in a creative role in the theme park industry? 

Mark Lofthouse: Yeah, absolutely. I think we'll start with mindset. Let's face it, we're kind of in a doom and gloom place at the moment, where you read the news, you're in this dark place with the news, all you see online is social media, people representing themselves a certain way. You compare yourself to them. I think, especially in a creative world, you've got to take yourself out of your ordinary life, mindset wise. So if you're coming up with ideas, you're coming up with creative concepts. Forget everything that you know, forget everything that is going on in the world and just put yourself out there with it. I think it's so difficult as well. We all go through bad spells with our mental health, don't we? You think, nothing's getting done, I'm facing that brick wall. You will overcome it. 

Mark Lofthouse: And I think it's so easy, especially in the creative world, that when you get to a mental block, you can get really defeated by it. You think, I'm just not very good at this. I just don't know what I'm doing. I can't get over this. I've had it a couple of times with some storylines that I've been trying to write, some narratives that I've been trying to write, and it just won't come out. I know what I want to get to, I know where I want to get to, I can't get there. And then I had this kind of brainwave I used to get in really dark mindsets where I was thinking, “I'm not good at this anymore, I'm just going to give it up, I'm going to go, I'm working a supermarket, something, I just don't want to do it anymore”. 

Mark Lofthouse: And actually, I got into the mindset of, “Put it down, walk away, come back in ten minutes”. And it really helped me. And I know it sounds ridiculous, I know everyone's going to be thinking, well, obviously, but when you're especially when I was freelance, if I walked every ten minutes, I saw that as pound signs above my head, that was time gone, that was money wasted. But I was probably losing more money sitting there getting aggravated at my computer, staring at a blank screen than what I would be if I come back in ten minutes, refreshed, had a drink, had something to eat, and I was in a better place. So I think from a mindset perspective, if you're not feeling it that day, creative work, that's fine, just do something else. 

Mark Lofthouse: If you're not feeling creative, why not start working on an Excel sheet? Because a lot of the time, I find specifically for me, if I'm not feeling creative, I need to do something operations wise, or I need to do something finance or something that separates, exactly that. And even if you're literally doing something that is completely relevant, it's not actually anything that you should be doing. It really helps you separate yourself and then you get back straight into it. So I think from a mindset perspective, it's to analyse where you are. If you're not feeling it, go away for ten or 15 minutes, go back to it, otherwise you're going to waste a lot more time by sitting there doing that. Does that make sense? 

Kelly Molson: Yeah, absolutely. Great advice. Mine's always just get outside. It feels like you get like that brain fog where you feel like nothing that you're doing is heading you in the right direction that day. So mind is always like, yes, get away from the desk, stick your head outside, take the dog out for a walk. If you happen to have a dog and a cat.

Mark Lofthouse: That's literally what I do. I've got a dog, I take him out for 5-10 minutes just around the block, or I get the lizard out and play with I'll show you the lizard a bit, but I've got a lizard and I get him out and play with him in the front room. I just use something to separate myself. I know that sounds like euphemism. It is, genuinely. I'm just going to put that.  

Kelly Molson: Pet podcast - we had Matthew on with Bug the Owl last week. Now we've got Mark and his bearded dragon. I've obviously put something out in the universe about guests with strange pets. 

Mark Lofthouse: We need more animals in our lives. Don't we need more animals? 

Kelly Molson: I totally agree, Mark. Yeah, good one. I love that. Okay, so hard work. Next one. 

Mark Lofthouse: It's not easy if you want to get involved in the creative world, it is not easy. And I'm not going to sell this under any illusion that it's an easy task to do. You're going to sit in an office, draw a couple of bits, and then you go home and get paid a lot of money. That's not how it works. I'm quite transparent as a person. I'm more than happy to tell people that because I think I was naive when I started, especially graphic design wise. I thought, it's great. I can sit at home. I can just do a couple of designs per week, and I'm done. That's not how it works. It really isn't. And I learned that quite quickly. 

Mark Lofthouse: And I think a lot of some people coming into this industry that I've met kind of are under either that illusion or under the mindset of, this would be great. I'm just going to be creative, and I'm going to have fun with work. Yes, it is fun, but there's a lot of hard work you need to put in. I think when I was starting out especially, it's really hard. Y You can prove that, you can write things. You can prove that you are good at customer service. How do you prove that you're creative? It's a really hard one to do. And I think when I started this, I started originally when I was 15, 16, when I started putting myself out there a little bit. But when I was 16, I used to think, "oh, this is fine. People are just going to believe that I've created". And it was a genuine mentality that went through my head. I was like, this is going to believe it. Yeah, this is going to know that isn't the case at all. 

Mark Lofthouse: And I think I had to put myself out there so much that I ended up doing fake case studies, not representing that they were real, but just to show what I could do. So I put together some propositions for attractions. I did a lot of concept artwork. I ended up spending so much time that I became a full time job for a little bit that I was just putting myself out there on a piece of paper, because how else are you going to get a buy in? 

Mark Lofthouse: And I think that's a lot of people kind of forget that with companies that they're purchasing your services. It is a business transaction, in essence, as well. So they've got to believe that you can do what you can do. If you went to Pesco and it was an empty wrapper and you took it out and you just had to believe that there was a sandwich in that, for example. Doesn't work that way, does it? You've got to prove that you can do what you can do. And my recommendation to anybody getting in it is spend time to work on your portfolio, spend time to work on creative concepts. Nobody might buy them. 

Mark Lofthouse: I still, to this day, work on things what are just kind of a labour of love process, that I work on them because I like the idea, I want to get it out my brain, I want to get it on paper because you never know where it's going to be. I had a couple of years back, I sold some skirma's concepts to a client that I had when I was like 18 and it took that long for them to get signed off, but they've eventually they've happened and they've been produced. But my emphasis is expect to put a lot of work in to get where you want to because it's not an easy process. 

Mark Lofthouse: And I think a lot of universities, a lot of kind of educational programmes will kind of instil the mentality a little bit of when you leave here, it'll be easy to get a job and you can do this, that and the other. Sometimes the harsh realities, that isn't the case sometimes. You've still got to put the effort in, you got to work so hard to get yourself out there and prove that you can do what you can do. Otherwise it's so hard, it's competitive to make it. You've really got to put yourself out there and put the effort into it as well. 

Kelly Molson: Yeah. There's a big thing about being noticed as well. Earlier when I said about back when I was deciding what I wanted to do and do I go to university or just try and get a junior job?  

Kelly Molson: I went down the junior job route because just felt that suited me better at the time. But competition was still really high for junior jobs because you didn't need the qualifications back then. They weren't as rigid about needing a university qualification. But then obviously the competition was a lot higher because there were more people going for those jobs and so you've had to put a lot of hard work in to even stand out in that part of the process, let alone like, what your portfolio looked like. Exactly like you, I spent so much time on my portfolio on projects that weren't real because I had to prove that I could do that role. But the first part of it was actually getting the interview in the first place, so you had to put in a lot of hard work about how you were going to be noticed. 

Kelly Molson: What did your CV look like? In the end, I'll have to dig it out. I'll put it on Twitter, but my CV was like I wanted to be a packaging designer, so my CV was like the little mini boxes of Kellogg's, the special pack, what were they called? The pack that you get. So mine was one of those, but like the Special K, because obviously K for Kelly. So I did this special K box that had all of my information on it, but in the style of this little box of cereal. And then I put some cereal in it, put my covering note in it and popped like a gift in it as well, which sounds great, but then I got a few messages from people going, "Yeah, that just got battered in the post. And basically we opened the box, broken bits of cornflake everywhere." Okay. At least I made a statement right when you opened it. 

Mark Lofthouse: Yeah, at least you got in touch. I think that's such a key point, though, isn't it? That actually, it's so competitive nowadays and I think I really feel for people trying to get in it. Don't get me wrong, I still find it difficult to kind of get some of them jobs off the line, or especially with the business creative as well. There's so many agencies that people are looking at using it's competitive to get these jobs, isn't it? We're all after the same pot of money from a client. In essence, it is difficult. And like I said, under no illusions do I want to make it sound as though you can just get one of these jobs by people believing in you. I think it's really key to put the effort in and I think it'll help you as well develop as a person. 

Mark Lofthouse: When you talk about interviews, this is a true thing. I used to do fake interviews, so I used to get people that either relatives or distant relatives. It wasn't people that could throw me off or anything. I used to do fake interviews and things because how else are you going to get that experience? You can't, and those little tiny things, just get in touch with someone and say, “Could you set up a fake interview with me and you and ask me questions?” Because it's so different. Being in a scenario where you're faking it with friends and family, you're having a bit of a laugh, but actually sitting there, having that meeting with somebody and having that interview is so difficult. It's not a fun task, is it, for anyone? 

Mark Lofthouse: So I think even doing fake interviews with things like just relatives or people that you may just know of and things, it's so important to get that experience because how else are you going to get it otherwise? 

Kelly Molson: Yeah, that's really good advice. Yes, good. What you said about all these things, it's all about building your personal brand, is it? It's all going into, like, how much effort you put in is what you're going to get out of stuff. All right, cool. Third pillar, creativity. Obviously, if you are trying to develop a creative career in the theme park industry, you need to have a level of creativity about you. But what do you mean specifically about this pillar? 

Mark Lofthouse: So, as you said, it's quite a key one, isn't it, to be a creative you need to have creativity. But I think what comes with it is exploration, research and doing so we can all have ideas. Every single person on Earth is creative to some extent. People can hone into that better than other people can, but everyone's got creativity inside them. It's so key to actually go and explore and do things and research and get other people's opinion on your creativity. Because I think we've all been there, where we've gone, “Oh, this is brilliant, it's a great idea”. And then someone else has looked at it and gone, I don't have a clue what you're talking about. I don't get it at all. 

Mark Lofthouse: We've all been there and I think even I remember reading an article online and it was from an imagineer, and they were saying that actually sometimes that they've done it where they've gone, this is a brilliant idea. And all the team members have looked at it and gone, what on earth is that? I don't understand it at all from guest perspective. So in terms of creativity, it's about honing the creative skills that you have listening to and it kind of leads us onto the next one. But I think listening to feedback, getting that influence from people, but also going visiting attractions, going visiting places, absorbing everything from your surroundings and taking home key aspects of what was exciting about that. So think of the horse racing, for example. What can you take home? How did that make you feel watching that? 

Mark Lofthouse: What was it about the experience that excited you about it? Or equally, walking in a forest somewhere you feel a certain way and it's really key to understand those feelings that you have and what causes them, because that helps your creativity along the line. So, like I said, we walk in the dog. I sometimes feel really calm and I don't know why. And then I'll kind of try and work out why I feel so serene. I feel really calm because if you ever want to embrace that in any of your creative ideas going forward, how do you get that feeling across? So then I think it's because I've just looked at this and it was brilliant. I've listened to this and it was the sound of birds and above and the leaves rustling together and you've got to absorb everything to be a creative. 

Mark Lofthouse: I think you've got to just take inspiration from every single place that you can possibly get it from. And I think that's what is about a pillar to being creative. It's not to be ignorant and just believe in your creativity. You can always learn something, you can always get inspiration from other places. And it's really key to remember that, to just remember to spend time to focus on why you feel a certain way. If you enjoyed something, why, what caused it, how long did it last for? Why are you wanting to feel that again? How can you do that for other people? And it's just about creative owning on that creative. Does that make sense? It's a little bit of a waffle book. 

Kelly Molson: No, it's brilliant advice. I totally get it. When you said about if you're putting yourself into a certain state, that level of calmness, understand what it is that's making that happen, because then you can apply that to the other experiences that you're designing. That summed it up perfectly for me. 

Mark Lofthouse: I think it truly is the only way you could do it. I think, as creatives admittedly, I'm the same. Sometimes I think, "oh, this is brilliant, I'm on a roll." Now step away and come back and read what you've just wrote, because I've done it a couple of times. I look at it and go, “I haven't even got a clue what I'm talking about here. What on earth? What is happening?” And then I've thought it's because it's got no feeling down. I've just been writing down an idea because it sounds good, but what would I feel like if I was stood there? What would I see? What would I do? What would I hear? What would I smell? And it's really key to think about all that because then you can go, right, fundamentally, this is why that creative idea did not work, because it didn't have any basis to work. 

Mark Lofthouse: You've got to come up with all of these little idiosms and little ideas to think of why things have got to work in the future. But it's so key as a creative, I think sometimes we can all rely on just our creative brains going, yeah, I know that works from the past and all this works from the past. Think of something fresh every time you do it. Think of a different approach and put that feeling in there as well. 

Kelly Molson: And then our final pillar is feedback. So you touched on this a little bit earlier about asking for feedback. I think being open to the feedback that you receive is quite important as well. Right. I think there's definitely well, I mean, maybe I don't know. I don't want to be generalist about this, but I think that there has been kind of two mindsets about graphic designers. You often come across some graphic designers and can be a bit precious about what they've done. 

Kelly Molson: Like, we've all met them, Mark, many of them are my friends, and you spend an awful lot of time on some of these things. Sometimes you can be a bit precious about what you've done and you get some negative feedback on it and it can be soul crushing at the time. But I think you've got to be open to the feedback that you're receiving because you can always make something better. 

Mark Lofthouse: Absolutely. And like I said before, you can always learn from people as well. And it's so kind of key to remember that. I think there's two things, especially as a designer, you either go down the art route, where actually a lot of the work that you're putting out there is just your personal work and you want to just share your creativity and your art. In that case, you've got to remember that everyone has an opinion and they will earn it. That's number one thing. And I think the second one, if you're working for a client and a client comes back with feedback that you do not agree with, you've got to remember they're paying you. At the end of the day, they're the client. You might not agree with their comments, but you've got to take them on board. 

Mark Lofthouse: And I think we've all been in that position doing commercial design, whether that is a themed attraction, themed experience, or whether that is a graphic design or art, whatever that may be, where we've got feedback and just looked at it and gone, “You don't know what you're talking about.” Which is fine. They're not meant to. They're showing their opinion and saying, this doesn't work for me because of this reason. And they might not have your background in graphic design, they might not have your background in themed attractions, that doesn't mean their opinion is less valid than yours. And I think it's so key. I went through a phase where any critical feedback I got, “I was like getting the hoof over it.” But you know what? It didn't do me any well because I lost clients over it. 

Mark Lofthouse: I have clients that I loved working with that wouldn't use me again because of that phase that I went through. But I needed to go through that phase to get into the phase that I'm in now, which is take any feedback on board. That's fine, take it on. Because everyone has an opinion. And actually, what some people bring back, even if they're not qualified, so to speak, in what you do, I bet they've got some good ideas that actually you go, yeah, that's really good to work with. I think one way I always work with clients to kind of assist from the feedback point of view. And I know the business creative do it really well. Is it a collaborative approach with working. 

Mark Lofthouse: So at the beginning of the process, you will speak with a client and get their ideas on board at the beginning of it. And I think it's really good because then you get the buy in from the client as well. They'll say, "We like this colour, we like this design, we want this feeling from it." But by doing that, you get the basis of the client working with you at the beginning and not you working for them. And it's really key. I think creativity and collaboration go hand in hand. You need to have that collaborative effort, otherwise it becomes a dictatorship of creative beliefs. And that's not what anything should be. You should be working with a client on a collaborative level to say, “Yes, I'm working for you, but we're working together to get this outcome and that's where you need to be.”

Mark Lofthouse: Whether that's graphic design, whatever is themed attraction, immersive experience. But by getting on board at the beginning of that process, you alleviate any of the pressure issues with the feedback along the way because you're working with them to develop these concepts. And by doing that, you're eradicating anything really contrasting towards the end of the project or any sign off periods that you have. 

Kelly Molson: Yeah, great. Mark, great advice. I think we've all been in the position where we have taken some feedback from a client before and taken it away, probably pulled her hair out, felt like we wanted to argue, but then had a little word of ourselves and gone, “Okay, well, how can we work with that?” And it's about evaluating every situation that you're in where you're receiving the feedback. And like you say, there are going to be elements of the nuggets from that feedback that actually will be really positive and we should talk about. But I think there is what you said earlier is absolutely right. You do have to take a step back and go, the client is paying for this. Ultimately we are in a commercial contract here and so how far do you take it? 

Kelly Molson: But I do think that there is always scope to push back if you genuinely think that the feedback that we received is going to have a negative impact on the outcome and the objectives that the client wants to achieve. So I think it is worth stating that, but you are absolutely right. There has been times in the past where you kind of forget that actually someone is paying for this and we really need to do the right thing here. 

Mark Lofthouse: Like you said as well, I think that when I talk about the collaborative approach, obviously that isn't just the beginning of a project that's through it. And by collaboration that does mean pushing back on certain elements as well. And that is part of a collaborative team. You aren't just say yes to everything, or no, full stop. You work with a client to say, "Okay, I'll get your idea, but how about if we did it this way instead?" So you still get your creative position in right? You still get the extent of what you want from a creative delivery, but the clients getting the product that they want and it's so key to kind of work that way. I used to be kind of critical with feedback. 

Mark Lofthouse: I used to, like I said at the beginning, think, “You don't really know what you're talking about. I know as a designer, I know what I'm doing. I've done this countless numbers of times. I know what I'm doing.” But sometimes people just need explanation as well as why have you come up with that. And sometimes you'll read an email and emails are the devil's work. And I will always say that, because you read much more into an email than you should do. Everyone does it, but you'll get feedback. And instead of looking at that and going, "Oh, what do they mean by that? Or is there any way that I can explain myself that you start to type back furiously". Don't do it. Always walk away from an email. And it's only in probably the past year that I've started doing it more. 

Mark Lofthouse: I'll get an email, come through and I think, I don't like the tone of that. I don't like this, that the other. And then I got, right, walk away from it. I'll come back and then go, “Actually, the tone is absolutely fine, I was overreacting.” Because you're not prepared to get that email coming in. So you're always on the back foot, you're always expecting the worst because you can never read what anyone's going to say. So I think with that as well, if you get any sort of feedback along those lines, try and jump on a call, try and jump on a Zoom call, try and jump on a Team's call, whatever that may be. Because seeing people's facial reactions as well really helps in terms of understanding where they're coming from with things. 

Mark Lofthouse: And you can obviously explain it a lot better. But, yeah, in terms of feedback, make sure you're getting the feedback, but also feeding back on that feedback to yourself to think, "Should I respond? Do I need to respond that way?" No, always have feedback on the feedback. That's what I think. 

Kelly Molson: I love it. And such good advice. Right, great. We've covered the four pillars. Mark, we're coming towards the end of the podcast. I've got two more questions for you. One, other than email is the devil's work, what would be the one piece of advice that you would like to share with anyone who really wants to start their creative career in theme park industry? 

Mark Lofthouse: This one is a bit controversial, but never fall in love with an idea that you have. So I learned this a long time ago now, when I first started, especially Danny Scare Mazes and Halloween events, because it's what I love. I absolutely adore into these type of events. I really fell in love with the ideas that I was creating and I just put my whole self into it and I thought, this is a brilliant idea. And some of the clients that I was working with didn't think that. And it hit me hard, really hard. And I think you have to obviously believe in what you are putting forward. 

Mark Lofthouse: I'm not saying that you've got to believe in the product that you're positioning to a client, but do not fall in love with it where you can't take this criticism on board because it hits you very hard. It's. Like getting punched in your stomach, isn't it, when you fall in love with an idea and then someone comes back going, “I really don't like this.” And you've really got to assess yourself with it. You've got to position yourself in terms of, yes, I believe in the product, but also it might not be right for other people because other people have different opinions, they see things from a different perspective. So I think, yeah, never fall in love with your own idea is probably a key one for me. And it's something I've stuck with for years, since learning that lesson long time ago. 

Kelly Molson: Learn it the hard way, Mark, but a good lesson to learn. Great, thank you. Right, we always end the podcast with a book that you'd love to share. So something that you love that you're really happy to share with our audience. What have you got? 

Mark Lofthouse: Yeah, so I've actually got it. I've got it behind me. I'll move my head. But it's the Immersive Storytelling book and I think it's been covered by so many people, but it is brilliant. It's written by an ex imagineer. I think, actually, she's still a Disney imagineer named Margaret, and she walks you through her vision of how to tell a story correctly in terms of an immersive environment. And it's just so well done, because she doesn't just say, it isn't a case study, this is what I do, this is how I do it. Because you can't do that storytellers, all tell stories in a different way. But what she does is tells you her philosophy of how to think about storytelling in an immersive environment. I literally got through neenoff the full book in an evening. It just engrossed me straight away. 

Mark Lofthouse: It's brilliantly written, really friendly approach to it, but I can't recommend it enough. It's called Immersive Storytelling. And it's brilliant. I really recommend it to anyone. 

Kelly Molson: Amazing. Great book. We have not had that one recommended on. We have some really good book recommendations recently. Listeners, as ever, if you want to be in for a chance of winning that book, if you head over to our Twitter account and you retweet this episode announcement with the words, I want Mark's book, then we'll put you in the draw and maybe you could be the lucky recipient of it. Mark, it's been so good to chat today. Thank you. I feel like we've got a really similar background, so we should definitely chat again at some point about our horror stories of feedback and client feedback and falling in love with projects that clients should love and then they hate. 

Mark Lofthouse: Thank you so much for having me on as well. I think it's so good just to chat with people about what you do and about how you sort of think about things. I think we're all guilty, aren't we, of just going, “Oh, I work doing this and carrying on with it.” But it's really nice, actually, sometimes just to open up about where you started and hear other people's stories as well. So thank you so much for thinking of me and I really appreciate being on here as well. 

Kelly Molson: No, you're very welcome. It's been a great chat and we're going to put all of Mark's contact details in the show notes, so if you want to have a chat with him about any aspect of this, which he's really passionate to, talk about it. So if you're starting out or you happen to be a client that's looking for creative work, then you'll be able to contact Mark with all of these details in the show notes. So thank you. 

Mark Lofthouse: Thank you. 

Kelly Molson: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned. 

Skip The Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website, rubbercheese.com/podcast.

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Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is  Kelly Molson, Founder of Rubber Cheese.

Download the Rubber Cheese 2022 Visitor Attraction Website Report - the first digital benchmark statistics for the attractions sector.

If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website rubbercheese.com/podcast.

If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this podcast

Competition ends July 31st 2023. The winner will be contacted via Twitter.

Show references:

https://bristolzoo.org.uk/

https://www.wildplace.org.uk/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/mike-coe-mba-943a7985/

Mike Coe (MBA), Commercial Director: 

Mike has over 20 years’ experience working in commercial and leadership roles within both charity and the private sector. Mike joined the Society in December 2021 and is responsible for the commercial and public engagement strategy.  

Previous to joining the Society he was CEO at the Friends of Westonbirt Arboretum developing funding strategies and vision delivery in conservation, education and participation at the National Arboretum.  Before that Mike was also CEO of Arnos Vale, leading the successful restoration and sustainable financial transformation programme within the iconic heritage and wildlife estate. 

Mike also led the relaunch of the Bristol Aquarium alongside leading successful consultancy projects supporting organisational change and delivery within the visitor economy.

Transcriptions:

Kelly Molson: Mike, thank you so much for coming on to Skip The Queue today. It's lovely to see you. 

Mike Coe: Thanks, Kelly. 

Kelly Molson: We are recording on a very snowy March day, but Mike and I are inside in the warm, so we're quite happy. 

Mike Coe: Yeah, well, still got a bit of snow outside at Wild Place. We had loads yesterday and had to try and shovel that all off and get the site open, ready for the visitors. Our visitor services team were out moving water around the site and shoveling snow, but it's all pretty much melted away now, so it's still quite wintry looking out there, but, yeah, not so slippery. 

Kelly Molson: There you go. The visitor experience team, they're the heroes of the day. Right, Mike, we're going to start off with some icebreakers, so I want to know if I could gift you a month off tomorrow and you could travel anywhere in the world. I know, right, please, let's put that out of the universe. Where would you go? 

Mike Coe: So when I left university, I actually travelled around Southern Africa. So I spent some time in Botswana, Zimbabwe, Namibia, South Africa. Really enjoyed my time there. I was teaching there and working in a rhino sanctuary and did a number of things out there and always wished, always wanted to go back. I'll be back all the time, but actually, I never got the opportunity to head back there and then had children. You need a length of time to get out there. So, yeah, if I had a month, I would definitely go back and sort of retrace those steps and just see how much things have changed over that time period, from sort of 2000, 2001 to sort of where we are now, sort of 20 odd years later. 

Mike Coe: So, yeah, I think I'd love to be able to do that and take my time and travel those areas. I'm a massive fan of the culture over there, but also, as you're probably not surprised, the wildlife over there, so it'd be a great chance to see how that's changed and transformed. 

Kelly Molson: Amazing. Would you go on your own or would you take kids? 

Mike Coe: I think I'd probably go on my own. Kelly, boy, I think as much as I'd love it, my little boy loves an adventure. Charlie I just think, yeah, sometimes, you know what I mean? It's having to think about them while you're trying to discover the place. Might be getting away a bit. 

Kelly Molson: Yeah, I hear you. It's funny because we've always said if we were lucky enough to have children, they would be part of our travel adventures as well. Now I'm like, yeah, maybe not. I changed my mind on that.

Mike Coe: Keep your eyes on them, as well as what's going on. 

Kelly Molson: Great. Okay, if you were in a karaoke booth, what is your karaoke go to song? 

Mike Coe: Probably Bon Jovi's Living on a Prayer. You can imagine that after a few drinks, microphone on hand, thinking you’re a Rock Gods, melting that one out. It’s a classic. Classic’s spud a goody.

Kelly Molson: I feel like if you're going to do karaoke, you've got to do a crowd pleaser that everyone knows the words too and then they carry you along, Mike. 

Mike Coe: Absolutely, you can't go into karaoke singing a song that you can sing. It has to be something that you literally can't hit any note on. And that's definitely one of those for me. 

Kelly Molson: We could do karaoke together. We're on the same level of karaoke skill here. Right, last one. Can you share with me one of your irrational fears? 

Mike Coe: Oh, cool. That's a good one. Actually, mine is always I would say it's about people letting people down. So I think when you sort of move up and you're in leadership roles, you're aware of what you can do. But it's always that sense of or fear of, have I done something? Have I let other people down? I can let myself down, but it's that letting other people down. So I do think I take great pride and passion in supporting teams, and if I feel I've let them down, I think that's the thing that hits me the hardest, if I'm honest.

Kelly Molson: Would you say, because this is one of my biggest challenges, because I think I'm like a certified people pleaser. So one of the things that took at the beginning of this year was I need to be careful about things that I say yes to, because I put myself under a massive amount of pressure when I do that, because I don't want to let people down all the time. So I've started to kind of just take a bit of a step back and go, “Can I do this? I really want to do this. But do I have the capacity for this? What pressure is this going to put on me this year?” But that is one of my biggest things, is a fear of letting people down because of that. 

Mike Coe: Yeah, and I'm the same. And you do have to end up setting boundaries, and it's only you have to set those boundaries because by saying yes too much and doing too much, ultimately you are going to let people down. You just don't have the capacity to do a good job. And I think we're all guilty, everyone's guilty of taking too much on because you just want to do a good job. But actually, it's that setting those boundaries and actually understand that it's okay to say no as long as there's a reason for that. 

Kelly Molson: Yeah, absolutely. Boundary is the word of the year, I think. Thank you for sharing that. Right. What is your unpopular opinion that you've prepared for us? 

Mike Coe: I know, and I didn't know where to go with this one, to be honest, because I've got quite a few. And this one, and I'm going to apologise now because I've got many Parisian friends. We work with some here as well. But I just think that Paris is a little bit overrated, Kelly. And I know, like I said, I've got so many friends from France and Parisians, and they've tried to convince me. I've been there a few times, but for me, it's just expensive. I always seem to end up with bad service there. I had my wallet stolen there once. I suppose that set me off on a bad foot. 

Mike Coe: And then seeing some of those sort of images, the sites that you've been expecting, and reading books when you're younger, and then when you get there, they're just not quite for me and for me, just wasn't quite what I had expected. So, yeah, it's going to be an unpopular decision and an popular thing to say, but I just don't get Paris and the romanticism around Paris, and maybe I'll be convinced as I go in later into life, and somebody will take me there and I'll see it for what I should. But, yeah, Paris is overrated, Kelly.

Kelly Molson: Paris is overrated, statement. I really like this one. I don't know how unpopular this is going to be. Interesting. I just got back from a conference, actually, where there was a Parisian speaker who was really funny. He does a comedy show in Paris about Parisians and their culture. And he said, “Yeah, we are rude. We are openly rude, and we celebrate in being rude.” And I thought, “Well, okay, yeah, at least own it.” 

Mike Coe: Yeah, maybe I don't get that. Maybe I should just accept that they are rude and just live with that. 

Kelly Molson: Yeah, go with that expectation. Again, that's a very sweeping statement, and that may not be my opinion. Just putting that out there. That was what the comedian was telling me. 

Mike Coe: I will add to it to any Parisian friends of mine watching this, I love you all. 

Kelly Molson: Mirabelle from Convius will be listening to this, I'm sure. And I adore you. This is, again, not my unpopular opinion. Thank you. That was a good one. Well, let me know what you think, listeners. Let me know if you're sharing Mike's, how do we get Mike's unsatisfactory opinion of Paris? 

Mike Coe: Yeah, my one star TripAdvisor review of Paris. 

Kelly Molson: Okay. Right. I'm really glad that you've come on the podcast today, Mike, because we are going to talk about something that we've never talked about on the podcast before and that's about actually the decision to close an attraction. Sometimes we're talking about attractions opening and all of the amazing things that they're doing, but this time we're going to talk about an attraction closing. So tell us a little bit about your background and then we can start to talk about what your current role entails and how you got to that decision. 

Mike Coe: Yeah, I've been in visitor attractions now since around about 2010 and then earlier through my studies, I studied leisure and tourism as well, but really got back into visitor attractions after a break, actually, with BP in their graduate scheme for a while. And I launched or relaunched Bristol, well, what was then Blue Reef Aquarium, but rebranded and relaunched Bristol Aquarium in Bristol, which was a great one for me, to be honest with you, launching a new product, new brand and a really nice new attraction for Bristol. So, yeah, growing and developing new attractions, certainly for me. And then on there, I was brought in chief executive of Arnos Vale, which is actually a cemetery in Bristol, but we was scheduled to close and we got some Heritage Lottery funding to reopen that as a heritage site, events as well going on there. 

Mike Coe: So were the first people doing events in a cemetery as a heritage site, as a museum, and we found a sustainable model for it financially to actually make it pay for itself. So this heritage site would save, secured, rebuilt with the Heritage Lottery Fund money and really a great success story of developing another new visitor attraction in Bristol as well. Then over to Westonbirt the National Arboretum, supporting Forestry England in the development and growth of Westonbirt the National Arboretum and some great new developments there. So always growing new commercial opportunities within visitor attractions. And then this opportunity with Bristol Zoological Society, which is very different, of course, because I hadn't closed a visitor attraction before. 

Mike Coe: But, yeah, that was what I moved over to Bristol Zoological Society to which, although I say it's about closing Bristol Zoo, it was a lot more than that, of course. So it's the closure of Bristol Zoo Gardens after 186 years, but actually the future and the positivity for the society that brings, because we also own an attraction called Wild Place Project. And the sale of the proceeds from the sale of Bristol Zoo Gardens that's going to be moved into, ploughed into the Wild Place Project with a brand new zoo for Bristol in effect and really reimagining what the zoo of the future should be. So, yeah, that's where it's gone from growing new visitor attractions to closing one and developing another one. 

Kelly Molson: Yes. So it's come full circle, isn't it? We started off that quite negatively, didn't we? But actually there's some really incredible opportunities that are coming from this experience. So we're going to start kind of at the beginning part of it, though. So, like you said, Bristol Zoo closed in September 2022 after 186 years. Got absolutely phenomenal. What was the decision behind it? What was the reason for that happening? 

Mike Coe: Yeah, it's one of those decisions, I think if you were to ask the Trust now, they probably should have taken earlier, in my view. So for a number of years, Bristol Zoo Gardens had been its revenues have been reducing and then in decline. So it had been losing money for a number of years over the decade before it. And it's a bit like that Region Beta Paradox. Have you heard of that?  And actually, what the Region Beta Paradox says is essentially a theory that sometimes the worse things are, the better the final outcome will be because you actually act on it and you actually make a change and you do something about it. So the recovery can be a lot quicker from a much worse situation. That worse situation, of course, was COVID. 

Mike Coe: So that really hits the charity reserves, in effect. And really, at that point, that decision had to be taken that they could no longer take the losses from Bristol Zoo Gardens and the site itself was crumbling. So the amount of investment that would have been required to restore Bristol Gardens as a visitor attraction, that wasn't falling effectively, the infrastructure was crumbling, so it would have taken a huge amount of investment to keep the site going in a space that had reduced visitor numbers year after year after year. So that was kind of the financial and commercial decision to close it. But the other thing, of course, is that Bristol Zoo Gardens was a twelve acre site, so quite a small inner city zoo. 

Mike Coe: Welfare standards amongst animals have changed from where they were 186 years ago into what size enclosures animals need for their welfare now. And Bristol Zoo Gardens, great space, but unfortunately just was too small to be able to provide the levels of welfare standards that are required now in zoology. So we're over here at Wild Place, ten times bigger than the sites at Bristol Zoo Gardens and the ability to develop enclosures far bigger than we were able to be, able to do at Bristol Zoo Gardens. So it wasn't just this commercial decision that we had to close the zoo. It's also, quite rightly, an animal welfare situation. 

Mike Coe: And what we can offer here is much better space and the chance with the money from that, the chance to develop a brand new type of zoo over here at Wild Place, a zoo of the future, where animals that we work with are involved in our conservation projects around the world. So it's not just about putting animals in for entertainment, it's about actually the purpose of those animals in terms of conservation and their conservation status. 

Kelly Molson: Let's talk about that then, because I'd love to know kind of what the vision is for what you're now kind of building on and that kind of positive aspect of it. 

Mike Coe: Yeah. And I think we start off it is about the animals that we have in the New Bristol Zoo. And the New Bristol Zoo will be developed with the sale of Bristol Zoo Gardens over the course of the next five to ten years. And the enclosures that will be here at first are much bigger, so the animals are in a more natural environment. So almost as you're walking through the gates, you're arriving somewhere other that you're almost on an on foot safari. So, you know, the traditional type of zoo. And another controversial thing I'll say is I'm not a big fan of traditional zoos, so I'm not a massive zoo fan. Certainly the modern zoos and the way we look at it is certainly the way to move. 

Mike Coe: And that's making sure that there's much bigger enclosures, that you're stumbling on those animals, you're not just looking from fence to fence that you actually have to do a bit of work while you're here to see those animals on foot. So this “on foot safari”, that's going to be a theme that sort of overrides what goes on here. The species of animals that we have here are going to be involved in the conservation projects that we have around the world, be that Africa, Philippines, we have a number of projects around the world and we're going to have the species here are the species that we're involved in those conservation projects. So actually, this is just going to be an insight into the world of field conservation, our in situ work. 

Mike Coe: So in situ means the work you do out in the field on those projects. So this is going to be an extension of those in situ field projects that we have out there, working with the same species of animals. We're also going to have a conservation campus. So within that campus, we're going to have university students who are involved in direct conservation work. They're going to be here on site, so our visitors are going to be able to walk through that campus as part of the visitor journey. So those students are going to be there interacting with our visitors. It's going to have a breeding centre, so they're going to see the breeding work that we do both here that supports the conservation work around the world. 

Mike Coe: So it's that whole what we do in the field, what we do here, and the breeding centre, linking that all together on this on foot safari. So something completely different to a standard zoo, I would like to think. 

Kelly Molson: What a phenomenal experience for the guests that's coming along as well. Because the opportunity that they could bump into students that they can talk to about their education path and what they're doing and the conservation aspects of there, that makes that visit even better than it would be just if you are just going to visit a standard zoo. 

Mike Coe: Exactly that. And what we realise is that if we want to save wildlife, and our vision at Bristol Zoological Society is to save wildlife together, we realise that we can't do that in isolation on our own. It has to be together, it has to be changing behaviours of the people that come onto the site. And a large proportion of those people that come on site are young people. We attract young people. So it's changing the behaviours of those young people for them to make correct, positive conservation decisions. And you're right, you talk about them engaging with those students as they're on site. We want them to become adventurers for the day when they walk in, so they almost become a conservation hero as they leave the gates. They come in as a visitor, become an adventurer and leave the gates as a conservation hero. 

Mike Coe: And that's what we want to do. We want everyone to come away with this impression of what they can do at home to make real world changes. You're going to come and visit. 

Kelly Molson: You absolutely sold that into me. Like, I'm there. I want to be an adventurer. 

Mike Coe: We'll get everyone wearing those Indiana Jones style hats as they come in, so they feel the part. We'll get our public engagement team coming up with some really exciting ways to make them feel like they're suddenly out on their in situ adventure. 

Kelly Molson:  Perfect. I can absolutely rock that hat. And I'm sorry I interrupted you mid flow, but I was like, “Gosh, yes, I'm really feeling this”. And I was like, the buzz that there is around this is quite tantalising. 

Mike Coe: Exactly. And it all relies once we get the sale of Bristol Zoo Gardens, then we can really start to make this vision and become a reality. And it's much bigger than just Bristol. It's this global conservation emergency that we're in that we'll feel like we're a part of and it's great that it's in our city. Bristol is known for being quite different in the way it looks at things. We're a great city, we're an ingenious city, and it's going to be great to have a zoo that does things a little bit differently, a bit like Bristol tends to like to do. 

Kelly Molson: Definitely, yeah. The ethos of Bristol is definitely different. This is amazing. So an incredible vision that you have there. Genuinely, there is an excitement there. I can feel it as you talk about it and the passion for it. I just want to go back a little bit, though, because I guess it's been quite a difficult decision to make from a financial perspective, anyway. And from a heart perspective, you're going to have a lot of team that have worked at Bristol Zoo for many years. And I know you weren't there from the start of this decision making process. But how did you go about communicating these decisions to the team and what was their reaction? 

Mike Coe: Yeah, like I said, I wasn't there when the initial announcement that the zoo would be closing. I know that it was an incredibly difficult decision, both making that decision, but also how that was communicated with staff. And the staff are clearly the first to be told before it was made public. And you think you've got a number of staff who have been there 30, nearly 40 years at that time. So it's dealing really sensitively with all the staff, especially those that have been there that time. And then you've also, unlike, I guess, other attractions, where you probably don't have as much attachment to the product, not that I'm calling the animals a product in a museum, you don't quite have that same attachment. 

Mike Coe: You've got keepers that have been working, say, with the gorillas for a decade, so they've seen them grow up and work with those. So you can understand how gut wrenching it must have been at the time for those stuff and how sensitively this had to be dealt with, because it was a decision that clearly nobody wanted to take, but ultimately had to take. And it was communicating that now. I was there when the actual final dates of a date closure for Bristol Zoo Gardens was announced, the 3rd of September being the last day. So I was there and we brought everybody into a big town hall and told all the staff that 3rd of September was going to be the final day. 

Mike Coe: And you go through this curve of emotion, this acceptance cycle, and that first stage is real despair amongst a number of the staff there and working and developing those through that, then there's that acceptance and then realisation of how we do that. Clearly there are as we move from two zoos to one zoo, there were some people that had to move on, unfortunately. But the good thing is we managed to do most of that through voluntary redundancies. So there's very talking ones or two where people were actually made redundant. The voluntary scheme meant that a lot of people made those decisions themselves, luckily. I guess we're kind of still just on the rise of that curve now. 

Mike Coe: So even now, although there's this great positivity around the future, there's still people still trying to get used to having moved over from Bristol Zoo Gardens and over to the Wild Place. And we'll continue to work with those people as well to make them see the vision of the new Bristol Zoo in effect. 

Kelly Molson: Yeah, because my next question is general public and what their reaction was, and I guess it's a very similar reaction.

Mike Coe: I think, absolutely. When you're a zoo which is at the heart of a city or a society that's a heart of a city, then you're right. It's not just that the staff that work there. Visitors have been visiting the zoo. I remember I was there throughout the final closing weeks and we had people travelling from not just around the country, literally from around the world, to say their goodbyes from Bristol Zoo Gardens, people that have been visiting for 70 years. I had one talking to and just, I guess, more stoic understanding the reasons why it was closing. But still that sense of nostalgia, and that's what came out in those last few weeks, that sense of nostalgia, what the zoo had done for the city, really, and these people as well. 

Mike Coe: But actually what I did get was this overwhelming sense of people understanding actually what it is time for Bristol Zoo Gardens to close. It is too small in terms of welfare and these animals and these enclosures that ultimately were just too small for them. And people got the sense that actually time moves on. And what was right for a city centre zoo back in the 18 hundreds is now not what's right for the modern world. So there was that great sense of acceptance at the end. The good thing is that Bristol Zoo Gardens will, within our plans, be reopened as a development, which will still have the parks and gardens open, so people will still be able to come and enjoy the parks and gardens. I think that's the most important thing is what people said. 

Mike Coe: "We still want to be able to see some of the old monuments, we still want to be able to see some of the old park." Well, they were going to be able to do that, which is really exciting. They'd be able to see the old monkey temple. A number of those items are listed. The entrance building itself is listed as well. So the entrance building is going to be turned into something called the Clifton Conservation Hub. So there'll still be conservation work. We do a lot of conservation work around the Avon Gorge and Downs wildlife project. So Avon Gorge and Downs is a site of scientific and conservation interest, while the hub of that is going to be within the entrance building when the developments finish. 

Mike Coe: So conservation work and wildlife conservation will still go on at Bristol Zoo Gardens, in parks and gardens, and then in the wider Avon Gorge and Downs. 

Kelly Molson: It's really good to hear that as well. And I guess one of the things that we always talk about from an attraction perspective is how many memories are made at a visitor attraction, regardless of whether it's a zoo or a heritage, a park, et cetera. So it's lovely that the reaction from people is we still want to be able to see these places because they've got great memories for us. We've taken our children there, we'd love to be able to go back there ourselves, and that's wonderful. And I think, on the other hand, as well, what's really good is that the message around conservation and welfare of animals is obviously a very positive one and very clear one that you've been pushing out, because that's what people have accepted about the change that's going to happen now. 

Kelly Molson: So that's a real positive that feeds into the vision for the new attraction. 

Mike Coe: Absolutely. Like I said, we ran a campaign at the end called The Zoo and You or You and the Zoo, I think it was, and it was really just people sharing all those memories and all those pictures. Like I said, understanding that actually walking with an elephant or whatever they used to do is not something they can do now, but celebrating that as something that was done in our past and being a part of that, but understanding that actually we do have to move on. 

Kelly Molson: Yeah, talking about moving, actually, while we're on that subject. So we've talked about the kind of the financial and the emotional decisions that have gone around this, and we've talked about communicating to the people and how from a team perspective and from the general public, let's talk about the animals, because I can only imagine that this is a logistical nightmare. How do you move a zoo? How do you move a giraffe down the road? How does it even happen? 

Mike Coe: Yeah, we'll come back to how do you move a giraffe, I guess. But the first off, there are literally thousands of individuals at Bristol Zoo Gardens and a number of those animals are coming with us, but the majority of those are going to other institutions. So I think the first thing to explain, and I get this asked a lot, I'm still relatively new to zoo, so it's something that I'm still learning and it's that we don't actually within zoological societies around the country, in Europe and the world, we don't own our animals, they don't belong to us. They're coordinated through a network of institutions, European Institute of Zoos and Erza have EP coordinators. Those coordinators coordinate those animals all the time between institutions because they're involved in breeding programmes. 

Mike Coe: So you'll get breeding recommendations and the animals will be coordinated by those coordinators from the receiving donating Zoo to the receiving zoo because of breeding recommendations that have been flagged up. So animals are always moving in between institutions anyway, those member institutions, so we don't own those animals. That said, of course, this was a number of animals moving all in one go, or a lot of animals moving won't go. Some of those animals are still remaining at Bristol Zoo Gardens while we build their new enclosures at Wild Place, and we'll move directly from Bristol Zoo Gardens over to Wild Place. So the gorillas, for instance, will be at the Bristol Zoo Gardens for a little while longer yet, and so we've built their enclosures. 

Mike Coe: So once those coordinators have got those recommendations of where those animals go there's, then the paperwork has to be done, those medical inspections, certain animals, depending on the size. Have to be trained for a move. So we have to train those animals before they can move, to be able to go, if they're going into crates, to be able to comfortably go into those crates and the trains to be able to do that. So there's actually, arguably, at the closure of a zoo, there was more work for the keepers than ever before. And the coordinators doing all of that work, moving them on. And we've moved on a large proportion, literally thousands of individuals. Admittedly, some of those thousands of individuals are insects and fish and things like that. That kind of bumps the numbers up a bit. 

Mike Coe: But you can understand there's still an incredible amount of work that has to go on between both the society giving and the one receiving the animal, between those. So all of that work goes on in the background of paperwork. Brexit god love it. Does mean that if you're moving something over to Europe, instead of having just to do one piece of documentation and paperwork, each country around Europe would require its own documentation.  So the paperwork minefield that we now have to do if we're moving them out of the UK. So a lot of ours we've tried to keep within the UK, just for those reasons as well. 

Mike Coe: And then, obviously, the medical checks on those animals, you can't move them if they're not healthy to move as well, the medical stuff. So I guess when you say, how do you move a giraffe? I guess then that adds even more logistical implications. What are a giraffe? About five metres tall. So I guess avoiding low bridges on a giraffe would be the most important one. But also, again, even with a giraffe, that same process of the coordinators finding the right breeding recommendations, you've also then got to have the right transport. So specially licensed transport companies that are licensed to move animals would have to be found, I guess. I've seen the crates that they moved. I think our giraffes here at Wild Place, they came from Amsterdam, I think. And the crates that they obviously move in, especially designed crates for giraffes. 

Mike Coe: There's probably not many of those out there that you have to try and coordinate as well. So, yeah, those big crates and the animals have to be trained to go into those crates comfortably and those moves happen. One of our animal team does have a presentation on how to move a hippo, and it is the most interesting presentation of logistics that you can possibly imagine. 

Kelly Molson: We need to see this presentation, pop it in the show notes. 

Mike Coe: How to move a hippo. 

Kelly Molson: That blew my mind. I've got so many thoughts about that. I hadn't actually considered how many animals would be involved in breeding programmes. So I think my mind always goes to Pandas, because it's one that's talked about quite a lot on the news. We always talk about panda breeding programmes, but yeah, I hadn't really considered the fact that the zoo, it cares for those animals, but they're not the owners of those animals and there's so many different places and variables involved in where they go and what they do next. It's crazy. 

Mike Coe: Yeah, and we also, obviously, I mean, our keepers have to visit those institutions that those animals are going to make sure that they're happy as well, so it's not just the coordinator. So we visit all of those centres and we review and check and make sure everything is right for those moves as well. We wouldn't let animal go unless were absolutely confident that the receiving institution had everything in place for them. 

Kelly Molson: Percentage wise, how many animals are coming across to the Wild Place and how many are kind of going off and going to different places. 

Mike Coe: So as a percentage, it's quite high, but that's because within our breeding centre, a lot of the ectotherms, insects, lizards, fish are coming across into the breeding centre, so obviously that makes a large proportion of those. And it's interesting when people think of animals, they always think of the large, cute, those iconic, charismatic animals, but actually that's a very small proportion of the numbers that are held in zoo. So of those animals so we've really only got the gorillas, I guess you would say, moving across immediately over to Wild Place. And largely because, as I said right at the start, we want to be working with those species that were involved in our conservation projects around the world. 

Mike Coe: So a lot of the animals that come to Wild Place will be from other institutions where they're animals that we're working in, those areas that are critically endangered, that actually have a conservation value to be in zoos. They're not just there for entertainment purposes, like I said. So very few of the animals, the gorillas being the prime example of one where we are working with those in the field and endangered, so we are bringing those across. So a lot of them will not come from Bristol Zoo, but from elsewhere. 

Kelly Molson: I guess you need the time to be able to build the enclosures as well for them in a responsible way. And this is the final kind of piece of the puzzle, is planning for the development, like, how are you kind of developing the existing Wild Place site to accommodate all of the new things that you want to do? 

Mike Coe: And it is like a massive jigsaw with 100,000 moving parts of trying to make sure that we move the right things at the right time, open up the right areas at the right time to make sure that the visitor flows work. That the infrastructure that's required because obviously, as we open up large areas of Wild Place, we know there'll be an influx of visitors. You need things like car parking, toilets, cafes, all of those sort of secondary things that make sure that the visitor can have a great day. It's not just about building enclosures as well. So it's been a really big piece of work. We're currently doing some master planning work. We're into more detailed design on that master plan now, which really starts to map out all of these sorts of things, visitor flows, the conservation model of where everything's going. 

Mike Coe: Our species list has already been defined, so we know which species are coming across and we've published those. So things like within the Central African Forest, which will be our first area. The reason we clearly need to put the Central African Forest area in first is because we got the gorillas that we need to move across. They need a home to go to. Conservation campus is something we really want to get in the early stages as well, because we want to get those students here and engaging and with the breeding centre in there as well, to get those animals all off site from Bristol Zoo Gardens as well. So some of this is dictated by the logistics of it and some of it is dictated by the need to improve the infrastructure to deliver the visitors. 

Mike Coe: One of our core visions is to be sustainable, revenue sustainable, so we have to be able to have the secondary spends from the visitors coming through, because that's the money that's ploughed back into the conservation work in the field. And we do give a proportion of that money to our direct conservation in those countries and our native work as well. One of the big pieces of work we do is native conservation. So crayfish is a big part of the work. We're doing invasive species another one. So a lot of native work. And the great thing about Wild Place, unlike Bristol Zoo, it has semi ancient woodland, it's got wetlands, so we've got the chance to talk about native woodland and communicate native woodland in a way that we didn't maybe we didn't know so much of it at Bristol Zoo Gardens. 

Kelly Molson: It's such an exciting opportunity. I was thinking earlier when you were talking about the animals and the logistics and the paperwork and all of those things, I was thinking, there's going to be attractions, professionals that are listening to this going, "I don't want Mike's job. I'm going to stick to my theme park. I'm going to stick to my heritage site. I'm going to stick with my museum artefacts, because that all seems a lot simpler." But actually, when you started to talk about the planning and the master planning and how you're having to plan things, you have to think about things now that might not be developed for like five or ten years down the line and how that all works together. That's really exciting. 

Mike Coe: It is exciting. I was brought in to work on the commercials of closing the zoo and looking at some of the future stuff. And I'm sure there'll be the more detailed planning paperwork stuff. We've got teams working on that, so it's definitely not me. There's a number of people, the animal teams, they've done an incredible job with these animal movements. I wouldn't even know where to start with some of the things that they've been doing. They've been absolutely incredible, the whole team. So, yeah, I'm a very small cog in a very big machine here.

Kelly Molson: A very important cog, though, Mike, for sure. Don't play it down. Thank you. I've loved understanding about this process and I feel real, genuine excitement about what you're developing down there at The Wild Place. I think that's going to be an absolutely phenomenal opportunity for the whole of the region to come and get involved, and I'll definitely be travelling down and seeing how that's developing over you. So thank you for coming on to sharing on the podcast today, we always ask our guests if they have a book that they'd like to recommend our listeners.  

Kelly Molson: It can be anything, it can be something that you love from a personal aspect. We've had all sorts of suggestions recently from marketing books. We had a marketing book on the last podcast and we had cook books from Abbey at Castle Howard. So, yeah, what have you got for us? 

Mike Coe: Yeah, it's funny you asked this question. I'm not a massive reader of books, so I was doing my MBA about three, four years ago and I was thinking, when you asked that question, which management book? And even when I was doing the management course, all the management books and theories that are out there, porter's theory, you got 1 minute manager how to influence people. And whilst I was doing that, I was thinking of the book whilst I was doing the MBA that I read and thought to my child, Charlie, who was about six or seven at the time, and I remember reading it and thinking, "You know what, this is possibly the best management advice that I've ever given."

Mike Coe: And I'm reading it from a children's book to my seven year old child, and that's a book that we'll all know, and it's over Oh, The Places You'll Go, which is a Doctor Seuss book. Do you remember it? Yeah. And I was just thinking, like even when I was reading out some of the quotes to Charlie and thinking," Actually, this is what management books are trying to summarise, but never seem to do it." Try 300 words to do it. Quotes like, you're on your own and you know what you know, and you are the one who will decide where you'll go, that you're in charge of your destiny. And things about that tells you to make mistakes, except you don't, because sometimes you won't. 

Mike Coe: I'm afraid that sometimes you'll play lonely games too, games you can't win because you'll play against you, but actually you're going to be the one holding you back in that as well. So there's loads of amazing management advice in other places you'll go, and it's something that I recommend that everybody gives to their child when they're going off to secondary school or even off to university as well, because there's some incredible quotes in there. You've got brains in your head, you've got feet in your shoes, you can steer yourself in any direction you'll choose. And I think that's kind of how I've lived my career up to date, is through the advice of other places you'll go and making those decisions yourself and sticking by those decisions, and the world is there to explore. 

Mike Coe: So it comes back to your thing about, where would I like to spend a month while Africa and going back there? Because that's the place I'd love to go again. 

Kelly Molson: But you're not taking Charlie with you? 

Mike Coe: No, he'll have read the book and be on his own journey by then, bless him. 

Kelly Molson: What I really liked is that you were quoting that book, so I know how many times you've reread that book to your son, which is lovely, and I was smiling. It's actually brought a little bit of a tears while because one of my really good friends has bought that book. She bought that book for my daughter when she was born. We've not read my daughter's 18 months old, it's not going to go in so much. Sitting on her shelf next to her bed, and I look at it every night. It's kind of the last thing that catches my eye before she goes in the cot. And when you said that book, I was like, “Oh, yes, that's just such a great book.”

Kelly Molson: Listeners, as ever, we give a copy of this book away, so if you would like to win a copy of it, head over to our Twitter account, retweet Twitter this episode announcement and you could be in with a chance of winning. Mike's, fantastic book. 

Mike Coe:  That could be my controversial opinion that, Oh, The Places You'll Go! is the greatest management book ever written. 

Kelly Molson: I think maybe more people who would agree with you that on a pat than Paris one a slightly less controversial. Thank you for coming on and sharing that. It's been wonderful to talk to you. Where's the best place to find out all about what's happening? 

Mike Coe: Yeah. So if you go on to either our websites for Wild Place and the Old Bristol Zoo Gardens website is still there, and look at our vision and our future, and all of the information on the master planning work that's going on there and the vision in the future are there, and please come and visit us and see us here. We're right at the start of the journey, but over the next five to ten years, we're going to really transform this place.

Kelly Molson: I don't think you're going to have any problem getting any of our listeners to come and visit. Mike, thanks again for joining us. 

Mike Coe: Thanks, Kelly.

Kelly Molson: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned. 

Skip The Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website, rubbercheese.com/podcast.

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