Skip the Queue

Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is  Kelly Molson, MD of Rubber Cheese.

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Show references:

https://www.draytonmanor.co.uk/

https://twitter.com/DraytonManor

https://www.instagram.com/draytonmanor/

https://www.tiktok.com/@drayton_manor

Danielle Nicholls - Senior Content Executive at Drayton Manor Resort

When I graduated from Leeds Trinity University with a degree in Media & Marketing and a multitude of marketing placements in 2017, I was set on combining my two passions - storytelling and theme parks.

After a year in a marketing communications role with a tour operator, I was lucky enough to secure a role in the Drayton Manor marketing team.

Here at Drayton, I’m responsible for creating engaging visual and written content for all marketing channels - including web, PR, email, in park signage and of course, social media.

My main focus over the last 4 and a half years has been to build an engaged social community across all our channels – Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, TikTok, LinkedIn and YouTube.

I’m forever grateful to work in such a fantastic industry, filled with incredible energy and enthusiasm.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/nichollsdanielle/

Twitter @dnicholls_

Instagram @_daniellenicholls

Ross Ballinger - Design & Brand Manager at Drayton Manor Resort (Inc. Hotel, Zoo & Europe's only Thomas Land) 

Brand protector and innovator... 

I played a senior role in a busy agency studio team for nearly 9 years. I joined fresh from leaving university with a sort after London placement under my belt.

I now produce fresh, engaging, and dynamic design creative for digital advertising, marketing campaigns, theme park attractions, working closely alongside a talented Marketing team. All to promote Drayton Manor Resort in the most effective and exciting method possible.

I can guarantee expertise and a wealth of experience, the final outcome of the design process is not the end of my creative input, you can be assured that maintaining brand continuity and freshly injected excitement remains my priority.

Spend time with me and you’ll understand why I wanted to be an Actor, but you’ll be glad I didn't as my energy provides office enthusiasm and endless creative steer.

www.linkedin.com/in/ross-ballinger

www.behance.net/rossballinger(Portfolio)

Instagram @rossballinger

Twitter @rossballinger

TikTok @rossballinger

Transcriptions:

Kelly Molson: Welcome to Skip the Queue, a podcast for people working in, or working with, visitor attractions. I'm your host, Kelly Molson. 

In today's episode, I speak with two great team members from Drayton Manor, Danielle Nicholls, Senior Content Executive, and Ross Ballinger, the Design and Brand Manager. 

We discuss the complex rebranding process. And how building a great social media community can mean your fans having your back when it comes to big change. 

If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue.

Kelly Molson: Woohoo, I've got Danielle and Ross from Drayton Manor on the podcast today. Hello.

Danielle Nicholls: Hi.

Ross Ballinger: Hello there. Very excited to be here.

Kelly Molson: I love how excited you are. I'm just talking, listeners, Danielle and Ross are literally the most pumped guests I've ever had on the podcast.

Ross Ballinger: That's it, we'd better live up to that now.

Danielle Nicholls: I know, right?

Kelly Molson: They've got a snazzy Drayton Manor background behind them, which is looking fierce. But as ever, we're going to start with our icebreaker questions. Imagine that you're just down your pub with your mates. This is how I need you to feel with the icebreaker questions.

Ross Ballinger: Okay. Get a few beers in.

Kelly Molson: Ready?

Ross Ballinger: Yeah.

Kelly Molson: What are you most likely to buy when you exit through the gift shop?

Danielle Nicholls: Pin badge, I reckon. Yeah, I've got a little pin badge collection.

Kelly Molson: I like this. Ross?

Ross Ballinger: Yeah, I'm very similar. I'm fridge magnet.

Kelly Molson: You can't go wrong with a fridge magnet.

Ross Ballinger: No. And we've got a secondary fridge, under the stairs, which where we keep the beers. And that's where all the fridge magnets go, at the end, if we've been to an attraction.

Danielle Nicholls: I love it.

Kelly Molson: Is that because your house is beautiful and your partner does not want them on her fridge and you have to hide them?

Ross Ballinger: Exactly. Exactly that. The wife does not want them on the normal fridge. They're hidden behind the door.

Kelly Molson: Oh, I like her style.

Ross Ballinger: But I've got to get a fridge magnet.

Kelly Molson: Pin badges, fridge magnets, excellent choices. Mine would be a rubber. Have I told you about my rubber collection?

Danielle Nicholls: That's interesting, no.

Ross Ballinger: So you collect branded rubbers?

Kelly Molson: Right. Well, I used to when I was a kid. I'm going to show you them. I've got them on the desk next to me.

Danielle Nicholls: Oh my God, please do.

Kelly Molson: I'm sorry, listeners. For the people that are listening, this is rubbish. But if you're watching the YouTube video, hello. Welcome to my rubber collection.

Danielle Nicholls: Amazing.

Kelly Molson: So they still smell. Again, this is not podcast material, but they smell absolutely incredible.

Ross Ballinger: Smell really good.

Danielle Nicholls: Oh my God, I love it.

Kelly Molson: This is an '80s collection of novelty rubbers.

Danielle Nicholls: What's your oldest rubber in there, which have you had the longest?

Kelly Molson: So there's one in there from the planetarium, the London Planetarium.

Ross Ballinger: Doesn't exist anymore. There you go, that's memorabilia.

Kelly Molson: Look at my Thorpe Park one, that's my Thorpe Park one.

Danielle Nicholls: Oh my gosh, that is a throwback.

Ross Ballinger: Oh, that's a good one.

Kelly Molson: This is an old one as well. Anyway-

Ross Ballinger: Everyone still does rubbers, so we fit in there with you.

Kelly Molson: Because I can collect them.

Ross Ballinger: Pin badge, magnet, rubber.

Danielle Nicholls: We stick together.

Ross Ballinger: That's a perfect combo.

Kelly Molson: It's like the perfect triangle. We're the perfect gift shop triangle. Okay, all right, next one. If you had to live in a sitcom for the rest of your life, which sitcom would you choose and why?

Ross Ballinger: Oh, mine's easy.

Danielle Nicholls: I feel like we're going to be the same.

Ross Ballinger: Yeah.

Danielle Nicholls: Friends.

Ross Ballinger: Friends, yeah.

Kelly Molson: Aww. Who would you be, if you had to be one of the characters?

Danielle Nicholls: I'm like a perfect mix between Phoebe, Rachel, and Monica, I think.

Kelly Molson: Nice, okay. Again, another little triangle.

Danielle Nicholls: Maybe more towards Phoebe, I'm a bit more hippie, I guess.

Kelly Molson: Ross, what about you?

Ross Ballinger: I love all the guys. I love for all the guys. Because I just love Chandler because he's so funny. But then Ross is funny as well, when he doesn't try to be funny. But Ross is just such a good actor. And you don't realise, until you watch it 17,000 times, actually how good of an actor he was. I think I'd have to-

Danielle Nicholls: Can you be a Gunther?

Ross Ballinger: No, no. I think I just have to sway towards Chandler. Just because he was known for being comedic and stupid.

Kelly Molson: And now you feel like that's your life role?

Ross Ballinger: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I would go and live Chandler's life any day.

Kelly Molson: Okay, I love this. All right, good, good answers. It's what I thought you were going to say. This is what I thought.

Ross Ballinger: Did you?

Kelly Molson: Yeah, I thought it was going to be Friends. All right. If you had to pick one item to win a lifetime supply of, what would you pick?

Danielle Nicholls: That is so hard.

Ross Ballinger: I know. Probably whiskey, lifetime supply of whiskey, just coming out the tap.

Kelly Molson: It's a good choice.

Danielle Nicholls: I genuinely don't know. That's really, really hard.

Ross Ballinger: It's got to be food or drink, surely.

Danielle Nicholls: It's got to be crisps or something like that. You can't beat a crisps and dip combo.

Kelly Molson: Yeah. What about a crisp sandwich? How do we feel about crisp sandwiches?

Ross Ballinger: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Danielle Nicholls: Oo, I'm not sure about that one.

Kelly Molson: What?

Danielle Nicholls: I'm not sure.

Ross Ballinger: Come one, you're Northern. You can put anything in a sandwich.

Danielle Nicholls: I would put crisps inside a cheese sandwich or something like that. But I wouldn't just have the crisps.

Kelly Molson: See, I would do it either. I'm happy to have a filling sandwich with crisps in it. Or just a plain crisp sandwich.

Ross Ballinger: I'd do either.

Kelly Molson: What I really love about you two is how well you get on. And we're going to talk a little bit about this in the podcast today about your roles and what you do at Drayton Manor. But you look like-

Ross Ballinger: Is it that evident?

Kelly Molson: Yeah, it's that evident. But even from your social media channels... You guys feature quite heavily across Drayton Manor's social media channels. And, honestly, it just looks like you have the best time ever. And I want to hear more about it. But, firstly, I need your unpopular opinions. What have you prepared for us?

Ross Ballinger: Okay, do you want to go first?

Danielle Nicholls: As Ross alluded, I'm very, very Northern, I think. My accent a little bit, but more like how I am. So mine is, it's not a bap, it's not a bread roll, it's not a cob, it's a muffin.

Kelly Molson: What?

Danielle Nicholls: A muffin. That's mine.

Ross Ballinger: It's a cob, it's a cob.

Danielle Nicholls: No, it's a muffin.

Ross Ballinger: Cob. You call it a cob.

Danielle Nicholls: A muffin.

Kelly Molson: No, it's a bun. What's wrong with you all?

Ross Ballinger: Do you say bun? A muffin's a cake.

Danielle Nicholls: I say batch as well. My partner calls it a batch, which is crazy to me. But muffin, we'll go muffin.

Kelly Molson: Okay. For now, we'll accept muffin. Ross?

Danielle Nicholls: Moving on.

Ross Ballinger: Mine is, I just think soap operas are crap, honestly. I was going to swear, but I can't stand soap operas. And I know there's a lot of people out there that love them. But I just can't, I can't watch them. I just think they're so depressing. And if they're on, if I accidentally get home and the channel's on where it's on, I get anxious. And I have to find the remote as soon as I can to turn it off. What a waste of your life. What a waste of time, honestly. Hours and hours. And you add that up over a week and a year, think what else you could be doing. Honestly, if I turn one on now by accident, it's the same actors that are in it 20, 30 years ago. And I think, "What have they done with their life as well? They've just been in a soap opera for 30 years."

Kelly Molson: These are excellent unpopular opinions. Listeners, please let me know if you agree or disagree. Thank you for preparing those for us today. I appreciate it.

Ross Ballinger: No problem.

Kelly Molson: Right, you guys work together. Tell me a little bit about your roles and what you do there?

Ross Ballinger: So my title is design and brand manager. So I'm technically like lead designer for the resort. And the brand guardian. I look after the brand guidelines. So yeah, I'll produce, with me and my little team, everything that goes out graphically or visually across all the channels, website, printed media. So yeah.

Danielle Nicholls: You definitely underplayed yourself there.

Ross Ballinger: Did I?

Danielle Nicholls: Yeah. You do so much. You say your little team, you and one other person. You smash everything, literally everything.

Ross Ballinger: Aw, thanks, Danielle.

Kelly Molson: That's a lot of work for you and your team.

Ross Ballinger: It is, because if you think, in the industry, I can imagine people on a parallel with us would have bigger teams, bigger resource. Because basically Drayton Manor is a massive entity. It's not just a theme park, it's a hotel as well. It's a zoo. Then we have Thomas Land, which could be considered as a separate entity. So they're what I consider as four blue chip clients. And then we operate as a little agency within the resort that looks after all those. But then, you've got the resort's departments as well, which could be clusters of clients. So you've got catering, retail, they're the big ones I can think off my head. But they all have their graphical requirements as well, design requirements. So yeah, it's a massive entity and we look after it all.

Kelly Molson: And how many... Did you say there's two of you?

Ross Ballinger: There's two of us, yeah.

Kelly Molson: That's mad. That is mad. So I really resonate with this because I, obviously, come from an agency background. I set up my agency nearly 20 years ago. I feel ancient. But what you're doing is you are essentially a mini agency with loads of clients and two of you. It's crazy. So I can imagine it's quite stressful, but also lots of fun because you get to work on a lot of variety.

Ross Ballinger: Yeah. Oh, very varied. Yeah, every day is different. And that is not just a cliche that you can just say. Literally, every day is so different. Because it's an exciting company as well, where there's new things happening all the time, constantly evolving strategies, or new things come in and go in. So yeah, it's very varied.

Kelly Molson: Danielle, what's your role? Because the two of you do work quite closely together as well, don't you?

Danielle Nicholls: Yeah. Yeah, we do. So my role is, the title is senior content executive. So I primarily look after the social media channels, so Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, LinkedIn, and TikTok. Creating the content, taking the pictures, work with video agents. Sometimes creating a video in-house as well. And all of the community engagement that goes alongside that as well. Whilst also writing any copy, creating the content for the website, and any signage requirements. Literally anything that you see that has text on it, normally, me and Ross have worked together to create that. And with social, it's both paid and organic social media. So all of the adverts you see, alongside all of the organic stuff you see on our feeds. I also help out with PR as well. So we have a PR agency that we work with, but we liaise alongside them. And now, we're getting more into the traditional media as well. So the pair leaflets and out of home magazines, articles. Yeah, little bit of everything now that it's-

Kelly Molson: That's mad. I love that you were just glossing over elements of your job that I'm like, "That's a whole person's job there." And we do the social community building and we do this bit and this bit. Wow, yeah, there's a lot. I just think that goes to show, even... We talk to attractions of all kinds of shapes and sizes on this podcast. And I think it just goes to show that even with an attraction that is a big attraction, and it's perceived to be a very big attraction, actually you're working with really small teams here. And there's a lot on each person's shoulder and a lot of responsibility. And I think it's really important that we highlight that, that you're doing a lot there.

Ross Ballinger: But the extended team is really good as well. We've got really good team members. So the rapport across the whole team is very tight.

Danielle Nicholls: In terms of the marketing side, I report into a digital marketing manager. And she is insane, she's amazing at what she does. And then, alongside me, we also have a digital marketing exec. And how it splits out is, he looks after all of the technical side, so SEO, CRM, that kind of thing. And I look after the creative content. And then we both report in to the digital manager.

Kelly Molson: It sounds like-

Danielle Nicholls: It's a little team but-

Kelly Molson: It sounds like such fun roles as well. Genuinely, they sound really cool. Because I know, Danielle, you are a bit of a theme park... I'm going to say nerd. But you're theme park nut, right? You love theme parks.

Danielle Nicholls: Yeah, absolutely, yeah.

Kelly Molson: And I'm guessing, Ross, to work in a theme park, you've got to love a theme park.

Ross Ballinger: Yeah, absolutely.

Kelly Molson: Did you absolutely tailor your careers to make this happen? Was this always your ultimate goals? Like, "I want to work in an attraction."

Ross Ballinger: Yes and no, kind of. So I studied to be a graphic designer, went to university for three years. And then I worked as a digital artist while I was at uni. And then I went straight into a local agency, after getting quite a sought after placement in London. And then I worked for an agency for nearly nine years. So I learnt my craft there, really. Worked my way up from a junior, up to a senior creative. And I ended up looking after all the top clients there as well. But almost nine years was enough. I knew I wanted to go in-house because it was at that time, there was a bit of a boom of companies and clients getting in-house designers. Because they knew how cost effective it would be to have your graphic designer in-house. So I started looking about, and I wanted a fun industry. There was no way I was going to go and work for a boiler company. I don't want to bad mouth any other companies out there but something engineering or-

Danielle Nicholls: More typically fun.

Ross Ballinger: Yeah, I wanted to go full on fun. And I used to come to Drayton as a kid as well so I knew Drayton Manor.

Kelly Molson: That's nice to have that connection, isn't it? You know the brand, you've lived it.

Ross Ballinger: I've got pictures of me around the park when I'm seven or eight with my mum and dad. So I have that nostalgic connection. And I was a big to a big Thomas fan as well when I was a kid growing up. So Thomas the Tank Engine, I had the wallpaper, had the bedspreads, loved the episodes. So when I knew that the big blue engine was here as well, it was like-

Danielle Nicholls: Big boss Thomas.

Ross Ballinger: Big boss, yeah, Thomas is your boss, any day. Yeah. So I was a fan of attractions anyway. Who's not a fan of going out on days out? And so it worked.

Kelly Molson: Exactly, cool. But, Danielle, you went out and made that happen, didn't you? This was your focus.

Danielle Nicholls: It was, yeah. I think, maybe not so much early on, I guess this is different, but from the age of about 13, 14, I knew I wanted to work in marketing. But I wanted to do marketing for a dance company at the time. So I did a couple of placements at some dance companies, Northern Ballet, Phoenix Dance Theatre, places like that. And that was the dream up until about 17, I want to say, when I was at college. I knew that I wanted theme parks. So I went and did a media and marketing degree. And as soon as I got to my second year, I was like, "Right, that's it. I need to find a theme park. I need to get experience. I need to connect with as many people as I can on LinkedIn." And it was my focus.

Kelly Molson: That's interesting. Hang on, let me just... Because that isn't a typical 17-year-old's path, is it? They wouldn't necessarily go, "I know that I want to work in this industry, therefore, I need to connect with people that can help me make that happen." That's a really good piece of advice.

Danielle Nicholls: Yeah. And I was literally on it, messaging people. I think I messaged, at the time, the PR manager for Legoland. And was like, "Hello, anything you can help me with." I was really a bit brutal. But yeah, then I went to uni, and did everything I could whilst I was there to try and get the connections still. I applied for a couple of grad schemes with some other groups and, sadly, didn't make it through to those. So as a bit of a bridge between finishing uni and starting Drayton, I went to work for a tour operator, who sold overseas UK holidays, but also sold theatre, attraction tickets, theme parks. So it was a bit of a gap between the two.

And I worked there for a year, and then the job at Drayton came up. And at the time, I was living in York, working for this tour operator. And I was like, "I've got to go for it." It was a marketing officer job, so a little bit different to what I do now. But I had to. So I drove two and a bit hours up, in my little... I had a little C1 at the time.

Ross Ballinger: But I feel that we both came in at Drayton in our respective roles as entry level, really. Because I had just started as a graphic designer. I took a pay cut to come here because I really wanted to start here. It was never about anything like that. So I wanted to work at Drayton. So that proves that I wanted to work. And our roles have both escalated over the seasons that we've been here.

Danielle Nicholls: Because I did move so far, and away from my family and stuff, it was a big jump. I had three weeks to find a house and somewhere to live as well, which was fun. But I managed to do it and, honestly, I don't regret it. I don't look back at all. It's probably the best thing I've ever done.

Ross Ballinger: If you want it, you make it happen, don't you?

Kelly Molson: Yeah, totally. And I think it really says a lot about the Drayton Manor brand that you've done that as well. There is a real... It's clear with both of you, how much you love it. And it's amazing that you've... Ross, you've taken a pay cut. You've changed where you live to come and work and be part of what's happening there. So I think that's a real testimony to the brand itself. And that's a couple of things that we really want to focus on for this conversation today. So I'm going to start with the focus on you, Danielle, if that's okay?

Danielle Nicholls: Okay, yeah, that's fine.

Kelly Molson: Because I think what you mentioned really briefly, when you went, "Oh yeah and we do this kind of thing as well," is what you said around the social community side. So you have built the social community and I want you to explain how you've been able to do that and what that's looked like. So tell us a little bit about that element of your role.

Danielle Nicholls: So I've been here just over four years now. And in that time, we've been through so much change but, also, social has changed so much. So when I first started I was looking at social but it was more, "Let's just post and leave it," kind of thing. And see how it is engaged with, see how it works. But, over time, I've tried to hone it so it's more about a social community, rather than we're just talking at them. It's more we're talking with them and we're engaging with them. 

Like I say, we've grown into different channels. So we were really just focusing on Facebook. We had a little bit of Twitter, and a little bit of Instagram, but it was primarily Facebook. Whereas now, we've brought in more LinkedIn stuff and TikTok as well, which has really helped. I think in terms of building the social community though, there's so many different to-dos that you can stick to. But, for me, it's more about seeing what works for your brand. Because it doesn't always fit the same, it's not just one formula that fits all.

Kelly Molson: And I guess, like you said, about bringing in different social channels, you need to work out where your audience is. I guess where you're getting the most engagement as well. And then, you are a small team, how do you then divide up where you spend your time? You've got to spend it in the areas that you're going to get that engagement. So you might then end up dropping certain channels, or not being as... I don't know, not putting as much effort into those ones, just because it's just not where you get the engagement.

Danielle Nicholls: I think in terms of the different channels, they all have a different audience, if that makes sense. So Facebook is very family orientated. You get the grandparents, the mums on there. Whereas, Twitter is theme park fans and slightly younger, it's very conversational. TikTok is younger, but the demographics on there are shifting slightly to be everyone at the moment. Because it's where all the trends are and things, there's a big range. Our audience on there is 13 to maybe 35, 40 upwards. So it is very varied. Instagram is a mix between Twitter and Facebook. So you do get the families and the mums on there, but then you get the theme park fans that just want to see pictures of roller coasters. And with the introduction of reels as well, that's trying to tackle TikTok, so that's really important. And LinkedIn is corporate.

But we do have a team, like I say, we have a digital manager as well, but she's so busy with all the other things that she's got to look after. So the social, like creating the content and community engagement, just sits with me. So I have a big plan of all the different channels and the different days. And because I know the Drayton brand inside and out, I know what works now. So we tend to post every other day on Facebook, every day on Twitter. And we try to do every weekday on TikTok. Instagram, very similar to Facebook. But there's not really one that I'd prioritise, necessarily. At first, it was TikTok, at the start of this year, because obviously that was where it was taking off. But now, it's just about tailoring the message across, and trying to keep active on all of them.

Kelly Molson: Do you have to really tailor what you put out on each of the channels as well? So you don't do, "This is going to go out across all of our socials." You have to really think about how those... Because I guess there's subtle nuances about how people react to certain things on different channels, and how they might communicate back with you.

Danielle Nicholls: I think, from what I've been doing this season in particular, is Twitter's been very conversational. So I've not necessarily been worried about always having an image on there, or always having a piece of media on there. Just some text normally works, so long as it's engaging and people feel like they want to respond to it. Whether there's a CTA on there, or it's just something that's humorous, then that tends to work quite well.

Kelly Molson: It's no mean feat. That is an awful lot of work that goes into that. And I think it's really interesting to hear about the tailoring as well. And how you're going to get different reactions, from different people, on different social media platforms.

Danielle Nicholls: We tend to get, particularly on Facebook, in the comments, they're always really interesting to read. They're so different to Twitter. Because Facebook, sometimes you get some complaints in there. But because our community is so strong now, we get other people responding for us, which is a good... It's amazing, I love it.

Kelly Molson: That's phenomenal.

Danielle Nicholls: Sometimes you've got to moderate it because they might give an answer that's not necessarily right. But yeah, a lot of the time they'll be sticking up for us. Or they'll be responding to the questions for us, which is interesting.

Kelly Molson: That's really impressive, and I didn't know that that happened. Is that part of, because you've put so much work into building your community, they're now backing you to other people?

Danielle Nicholls: Exactly, yeah.

Kelly Molson: Wow.

Danielle Nicholls: Yeah. They've become our brand guardians without us making them, if that makes sense. Because they're so loyal to the brand, they just want to do all their best for us.

Kelly Molson: How does that happen? Is that a time thing? Is it purely because you've spent so much time investing in those relationships that that happens now? Nobody's ever told me this before, that that happens.

Danielle Nicholls: I think it's that but, also, like you say, Drayton is such a strong brand. And particularly since I've been here, we've just gone from strength to strength. So I think that helps as well. We also use user generated content. So particularly at the end of a big campaign, so Halloween, we'll say, "Share your pictures with us and we'll share them on our feeds." And that really gives them a sense of belonging as part of the community. Because they'll be scrolling down their Facebook or Instagram or wherever, and they'll see a picture of maybe their little one. Or they'll see themselves and, yeah, they love it.

Kelly Molson: Yeah, I love that the whole user generated content is brilliant, because it allows people to see themselves at the place as well, doesn't it?

Danielle Nicholls: Yeah.

Kelly Molson: So from a sales perspective, I think if people can look at something and go, "Oh, well, that family looks just like mine." Or, "That person looks just like me." Or, "They've got this thing, just like I have." Then they're more inclined to maybe buy a ticket to come and see it as well. So it works two ways.

Danielle Nicholls: It's about recognising the top fans as well. So I know Facebook has the top fan badge. And, on Twitter, we've got a closed community group which anyone can join. That's just called Drayton Manor Top Fans. And we, every so often, give them a little bit of information early before we give it to everybody else. Or little things like that, that make them feel special.

Kelly Molson: So they feel like VIPs.

Danielle Nicholls: So it keeps them interactive. Yes, exactly.

Kelly Molson: They've got their own mini community. They feel like VIPs because they get to know stuff early. That's brilliant. Again, I've never heard any other attraction talk about doing stuff like that. Do you think that would be... I always ask about top tips, and what you would recommend other people to do that are building communities. Do you think that would be one of your top tips, is really invest in them?

Danielle Nicholls: Yeah. And also, respond in a personal manner, rather than it being very corporate. Include your tone of voice, wherever you can, and make sure your tone of voice is dead on point, according to your brand guidelines. But also, be bold and brave. We always say that, don't we?

Ross Ballinger: Bold and brave, yeah.

Danielle Nicholls: If you sway away from your brand guidelines slightly, in order to respond, particularly on Twitter, it works really well. Then don't worry too much about that. It's okay, so long as it's in keeping with your values then it's okay.

Ross Ballinger: And it's evident out there as well with all the other big companies. And it becomes a news story, doesn't it, when you get supermarkets battling on Twitter. And it's exposure and engagement at the same time.

Kelly Molson: And people love that.

Danielle Nicholls: That's another really important thing.

Ross Ballinger: Yeah, people love it. It's a comedy show.

Danielle Nicholls: Yeah, engaging with other brands helps.

Kelly Molson: Yeah, they want to know about the people behind the brands, don't they? And if they realise that your brand face, actually there's a human behind it who's got a sense of humour, I think that goes a really long way.

Danielle Nicholls: That's what we try and do.

Kelly Molson: You do it perfectly, because I love your Twitter chat. You've got a great Twitter chat. We've talked loads about brand today, and that leads me on to what I want to talk to you about, Ross, which is the Drayton Manor brand itself. Because I think, I might have got this wrong, but it's a 70 year old brand. So Drayton Manor's about 70 years old.

Ross Ballinger: Yeah, 1950 was when it first came about, yeah. The Bryan family started it in the 1950s. So George Bryan Sr., had this vision to create an inland pleasure resort for the local community. And I guess, in short story, it escalated from there.

Danielle Nicholls: We've got a book all about it in the shops.

Ross Ballinger: Yeah, yeah. So yeah, we owe a lot to the Bryan family, really, for escalating such a tiny little brainchild into a massive attraction that we are today. So yeah, I can remember thinking that we needed to rebrand years ago though, when I first started. Because I think it's just one of those that was a little bit... I don't want to say anything bad about it but obviously it needed to change. It was a little bit outdated.

Danielle Nicholls: It was a bit archaic, wasn't it?

Ross Ballinger: Yeah, it was a bit archaic. It stood the test of time and it did a good job.

Kelly Molson: So how long had the existing brand been in place, before you got your mitts on it?

Ross Ballinger: I think the last logo that we had in the brand was probably in place for about 20 years. I think it's early 2000s, the last logo.

Danielle Nicholls: There was always slight variations, wasn't there?

Ross Ballinger: Yeah, there was always a few modifications on it.

Kelly Molson: But I can imagine that things had changed quite dramatically over those 20 years as well. So you talk about the need for a rebrand, it was really needed.

Ross Ballinger: Absolutely.

Kelly Molson: What I always think's quite interesting is how long some of these things take. Because I think that people don't fully understand how long a rebrand can actually take you. So can you remember when those conversations first started?

Ross Ballinger: Since I started, it's always been a project that was a pinnacle project that we always wanted to try and get on to. But just in terms of budgets and time, we never got around to it. Obviously, it came to the point, I think it was November 2021, when we first sat down and said, "Now is the time to do it." Because, obviously, we were bought out by a big company, Looping Group, and it was the perfect opportunity to do it. It's obviously a new era so it made perfect sense.

Kelly Molson: So when did you launch it? So November, you sat down and went, "Right, November '21, we're going to do this." When did it actually launch?

Ross Ballinger: Literally-

Danielle Nicholls: Two minutes later.

Ross Ballinger: Six months.

Kelly Molson: Six months?

Ross Ballinger: Six months, yeah. We put a brand team together, firstly. And, honestly, because we're such a small in-house team, we knew that we needed some help. So we got agency help, and we got local agencies to pitch in their best processes. So they were the experts in doing it, and they knew what protocols and procedures to go through. And we chose a really talented local agency in Birmingham. Yeah, started the project in '21, and launched it six months later.

Kelly Molson: Wow, that's a phenomenal amount of work in six months.

Ross Ballinger: Yeah. In, I don't know, design industry terms and the size of the business, that's no time at all, really.

Kelly Molson: No, it's not. I honestly thought you were going to say we started talking about this three years ago and it took two years. It was a two year process.

Ross Ballinger: The best thing was, is that we were doing that, alongside launching our brand new Vikings area. So we've got three new rides launch. We're launching a new website at the same time.

Danielle Nicholls: We had a new booking system.

Ross Ballinger: Yeah, a new ticketing system. As well as the regular day to day work and seasonal campaigns to market. It was literally like all Christmases come at once.

Danielle Nicholls: It was. Everything we'd wanted for so long, they just went, "There you go."

Ross Ballinger: All at the same time.

Kelly Molson: You can have it all, but you need to do it in this amount of time. Wow. That is such a lot to all be happening at the same time. But I'm not going to lie, this happens at attractions. Suddenly, they just spring into action. We have just worked with a client with exactly the same. They did a rebrand, new website, booking system, all at the same time. And you're like, "Ah, the world is on fire. What's happening?"

Danielle Nicholls: It was great though.

Ross Ballinger: It was good though. We collaborated for most of it. The agency were a bit of a rock, really. And they did a lot of the legwork in terms of the brand personality, putting together the guidelines, creating the initial design concepts. But I did sit alongside them and collaborate with them. It would've just been a too big a task solely, on my own, internally, which it wouldn't have been possible. But I'd like to think I had a lot of input, inspirational design ideas along the way, that probably helped chisel the final outcome and the look of the brand that we've got now.

Danielle Nicholls: Just logos in itself, you had sheets and sheets of-

Ross Ballinger: Sheets and sheets of logos, yeah, logo concepts and variations. But I know I wanted something that was super flexible in terms of composition and layout. Because I know what I'd created before, it was archaic, but it was flexible. It would work on all different platforms. And then the typeface that we chose for the final logo was one of my early typefaces that I pitched in. And the swirl, that was one of my babies, that was one of my original concepts. So I always wanted to push that.

Kelly Molson: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that. But that's what makes for a good agency client relationship is that you do collaborate. That's how it should be. And they obviously nailed it. And I know that you would've had so many stakeholders involved in this process as well. So I can imagine how big a challenge that was to actually come to a final, "This is what it's going to be like," and everyone be happy.

Ross Ballinger: It was a challenge, but only because we had a lot of passionate stakeholders that wanted valued input. And they had strong views, which was very fair.

Kelly Molson: So the bit that ties these two stories together, the things that we've talked about today, is that... I think you alluded to the fact, Ross. That when the brand launched, it's a big change for people. The way that you've talked about the brand is incredibly passionate. I can imagine that local people, people that come to visit every week, every month, they are so... The brand is in their heart. So a big change like this can be quite uncomfortable for people. And when the brand launched, there was a little bit of-

Ross Ballinger: Yeah, there was a bit of uncertainty, yeah, and a bit of shock. Yeah, they've had a logo installed in their brain for 20 years. But when we wanted to launch the rebrand, it wasn't just about a logo. We did focus on the logo probably, in hindsight, more than we should have.

Danielle Nicholls: I think that's maybe a bit of a learning curve, particularly on social. The asset that we used was the old logo going into the new logo, which we thought was great. But then when we put it out, we were like, "Actually, maybe we should have focused more on..." Like you say, brand personality and visions and values, rather than just the logo.

Ross Ballinger: Because the end user hasn't really seen the six months of graft that's gone into creating that. And we did portray it in five seconds.

Kelly Molson: So they just get the, "Hey, this is new, you should love it." But they haven't understood about the process of why you've done certain things, and the decisions that have been made.

Danielle Nicholls: Exactly, yeah. We had a blog which explained it all perfectly, but you had to click through to the blog. People didn't necessarily do that. They just saw the logo and keyboard-

Ross Ballinger: But I like the journey we went through because the people that didn't actually really like it in the beginning and really just sacked it off straight away, they're the people that have warmed to it now. And seen it in execution, and how adaptable it is, and how we can get our messages across. And the fact that they love it now, and I love that, that we've turned them round.

Danielle Nicholls: Because the main thing we were trying to do, really, is come away from fun family memories, and turn it to fun for everyone. That was the main message that we wanted to portray, particularly on the social channels, and in brand in general. But I think going forward we're definitely going to achieve that.

Kelly Molson: But it's quite interesting because I think what you talked about earlier, Danielle, your social community, they would've played a big part in this when you launched it. So I guess it would've been harder if you hadn't already built those relationships and nurtured that community. Launching something like this, would've been 1,000 times more difficult than actually... All right, there was a bit of a bump in the road, but it wasn't the end of the world. And people, like you say, are now warming to it and loving it. Would that have happened if you hadn't put all that work into the social community aspect?

Danielle Nicholls: Possibly not. I think, like I said earlier, there was a lot of people, they had our backs. So there was people like, "This is..." Being very negative. But people were responding saying, "Look, they have to move forward, they've been through this, that and the other. They have to move forward. See the positives," which was good.

Ross Ballinger: I think as well, probably because we've got such a good social community, they felt comfortable with saying what they thought about it and being honest.

Danielle Nicholls: Which helps because we did run focus groups beforehand, as part of the rebrand process, with suppliers, annual pass holders, staff members, literally with so many people. But until it's out there, you're not necessarily going to get that big, full, wider picture. So it did help us with how we were going to move forward with the rebrand as well, looking at their feedback.

Kelly Molson: So you actually took some of their... So obviously from the focus groups, you would've taken on board some of the input that you got from those. When it launched, was there anything that you took on board from the feedback that you were getting at that point? That you could look to, not necessarily change, but I guess look at the ways that you implement it in a different way?

Danielle Nicholls: I think the main thing was, like we said, the logo situation. Because everyone was so focused on the logo, we knew that, moving forwards, as we were going to explore the brand even more, we had to make sure it was about the imagery and the personality. And including the shop line there and things like that, rather than... I think that learning curve definitely came from the feedback.

Kelly Molson: Brilliant. It is such a huge project to go through a rebrand. And I think there's always that anxious moment when you unveil it to people and they go... It could be a bit Marmite. But I think the way that it's been managed, that's the important part of this story, really. And that comes back to, again, it all fits together about how the two of you work together as well. And I think that's quite an important aspect to take away from this podcast episode as well. It's about, it's a team, this is a team thing that happens here. And it's not just about one person. So the brand has launched and then, suddenly, it's all on Danielle's shoulders to deal with all the stuff that's coming back. It's, this is a team thing.

Ross Ballinger: Well, no, it cascaded all the way through the company, didn't it?

Danielle Nicholls: Yeah.

Ross Ballinger: People would be like... Even engineers, and everyone, and HR, they were like... They felt the same... It was almost a little bit of disappointment that the reaction wasn't amazing. But then, everybody felt it.

Danielle Nicholls: But we all came together and-

Ross Ballinger: Yeah.

Danielle Nicholls: Our director of people bought us a box of Krispy Kremes in the office that day. And was like, "There you go, guys. Are you all okay?" And we were like, "Yeah, it's all good."

Ross Ballinger: But there's obviously horror stories of brands doing this and reverting back. But we knew that we'd got something that was amazing that we were going to stick to. And once we knew we could roll it out, that it was going to flourish. So we're just glad that we stuck to our guns and just... We had the negativity at the beginning and, now, people love it.

Danielle Nicholls: Like you say, we have people coming up to us, just telling me it's good. Saying, "I wasn't sure at first? But now we love it."

Kelly Molson: Ah, see, and that's what you want. You want it to be loved by everybody that sees it now. That's brilliant. You just reminded me of something that I saw a few weeks ago. Have you seen the video when Staples changed their logo, they put out?

Danielle Nicholls: Yes.

Ross Ballinger: Yes, yes.

Kelly Molson: That's just like, as you were talking about it, I was going, "Oh my God, I watched that last week." And it's so crazy.

Danielle Nicholls: Yeah. And they're all like, "Whoopa." It's amazing.

Kelly Molson: "Wow, look at us." And I just didn't think it was amazing either. But I just felt really sorry for the whole team being forced to clap it and, "Yay, a logo." Oh dear, if that's what they thought brand was-

Ross Ballinger: I loved it. I just think that's how you should do it, even if it is a bit cringey.

Danielle Nicholls: I thought it was hilarious.

Ross Ballinger: What they've done is open up the stapler in the logo, and put it on the side. But sometimes that probably would've cost them an arm and a leg just to do that as well.

Danielle Nicholls: So much time.

Kelly Molson: There's a massive buildup to that happening as well. And I was a bit like, "Wow, that's a massive anticlimax."

Danielle Nicholls: A big press conference for it.

Ross Ballinger: I just loved everything about it, honestly.

Kelly Molson: The next rebrand, that's what you'll be doing, Ross. You'll get everyone in the attraction, you'll launch it on a big screen. I think what you've done, and what you've achieved, is phenomenal. Thank you for coming on the podcast and talking to me about it today. I really appreciate it. As ever, we always ask our guests if they've got a book that they love that they'd like to share with our audience. So you can pick one each.

Danielle Nicholls: I think for me... And going back to me being a theme park nerd, this ties in very well. John Wardley, who is-

Ross Ballinger: No.

Danielle Nicholls: I know, right. John Wardley, who is a big theme park, mainly rollercoaster, designer. He's done work for Merlin, PortAventura, Oakwood, so many. He was really, really big. He worked on things like Nemesis, Oblivion, Katanga Canyon at Alton Towers, was Megafobia at Oakwood. He had an autobiography called Creating Your Nemesis, which basically spanned through his life of how we got into the theme park industry and where we went through. And it's very story based and anecdotal, but it was really inspiring. And helped me create the courage to knock on doors and do that kind of thing.

Kelly Molson: Oh, I love that. Great book. Great book choice.

Ross Ballinger: That's a really good response to the question. See, I'm a designer so I don't really read. I can read, but I just don't read. I'm very visual, as you can imagine. So I'm just not a fan of reading. I prefer to just scroll through Instagram and TikTok. But I have read books in the past. I remember one book, I think it's probably the only book I have read, was The Da Vinci Code by Dan Brown. I think it's Dan Brown. But that's only because I was interested in Leonardo da Vinci, who was obviously a scientist or an... He was a bit of an artist and an architect. So I was more interested in his theories, and his Vitruvian Man, I think it is. So I was more interested in his works, really. But other than that, I do own every book by Jamie Oliver, so if a cookbook works.

Kelly Molson: I don't know if you should be sharing that.

Ross Ballinger: So yeah, I love Jamie Oliver. 5 Ingredients, 30 Minute Meals, brilliant.

Kelly Molson: Jamie Oliver gets a bad rap and I don't really know why because he seems like a nice guy.

Danielle Nicholls: Are we going back to unpopular opinion?

Kelly Molson: Well, I think we should. But also a little story in that. I live in Saffron Walden, Jamie Oliver lives five minutes around the corner.

Ross Ballinger: He's down the road.

Kelly Molson: He goes to the market in my town every Saturday, and goes and buys his-

Ross Ballinger: Oh, I'd love to meet him.

Danielle Nicholls: You'd be there for a selfie.

Kelly Molson: Ross, join the queue. I'd love to meet him. I've lived here since 2019. I've never seen him once. All my friends have seen him. And now, it's a thing with them. They're like, "Have you seen him yet? Have you seen him?" No. And I feel like, I'm not a Jamie Oliver stalker. I'm not going to go and harass him. I just would like to live in the town and be like, "Oh yeah, I saw him this morning." I've never seen him. My mum has been messaging me once, and she's been in the cafe in Saffron Walden, and been like, "I think Jamie Oliver's on the table next to me. I'm not sure if it's him though. I don't know if it's a fat version of Jamie Oliver, or if it's actually... Oh no, it is Jamie. It's Jamie Oliver."

Ross Ballinger: Oh no. I can understand why people don't like him. But he just sploshes his olive oil everywhere, sploshes it around. But he has got that passion for cooking, which is what I resonate with. So he loves what he does, he's so-

Danielle Nicholls: You can't knock his passion.

Ross Ballinger: You can't knock his passion. So I'm in tune with that.

Kelly Molson: All right. Listeners, well, I think that we should scrap Ross's book choice, and I think we should go with the Jamie Oliver book. So if you head over to Twitter, and you retweet this Twitter announcement with, "I want Ross and Danielle's books," then you might be in with a chance of winning Danielle's book and a Jamie Oliver cookbook. Does that sound fair?

Ross Ballinger: Yeah, that'd be ace.

Kelly Molson: I feel like you were more passionate about that.

Ross Ballinger: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kelly Molson: All right, let's do that then. Thank you. It was lovely to have you both on. I've really, really enjoyed it.

Ross Ballinger: Thank you.

Danielle Nicholls: Thank you.

Kelly Molson: And also thank you for the lovely little tour that I got of the new Vikings area at Drayton Manor, when you hosted the UK Theme Park Awards earlier this year.

Danielle Nicholls: I'm glad you liked it.

Ross Ballinger: Yeah, we did, yeah.

Kelly Molson: It was awesome.

Danielle Nicholls: It was amazing.

Ross Ballinger: I think that's where you spotted us.

Danielle Nicholls: Yeah.

Kelly Molson: Well, look, I'm not going to lie, you guys were sitting behind me and you were extremely loud. And I thought, "They'll make great podcast guests."

Danielle Nicholls: We were whooping everyone.

Ross Ballinger: We had so much energy that day though. I was knackered by the end of the day.

Kelly Molson: I loved it. No, you hosted it perfectly. It was a brilliant event. But the new area is fantastic, so definitely go on, book your ticket.

Ross Ballinger: We're very proud of it.

Kelly Molson: And go on and see that while you can. So thanks for coming on, guys.

Ross Ballinger: Thank you.

Danielle Nicholls: Thank you.

Kelly Molson: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned. Skip The Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions, that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more, over on our website; rubber cheese.com/podcast.

Download The Visitor Attractions Website Survey Report - https://www.merac.co.uk/download-the-visitor-attractions-survey

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Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is  Kelly Molson, MD of Rubber Cheese.

Download our free ebook The Ultimate Guide to Doubling Your Visitor Numbers

If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website rubbercheese.com/podcast.

If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this podcast

Competition ends January 31st 2023. The winner will be contacted via Twitter.

Show references:

https://aromaprime.com/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/liam-r-findlay/

Smells for Theme Parks and Dementia Care: AromaPrime on BBC News

Kickstarter for the game where a reward is a scent collection, based on the locations in the game 

Smell tour of Amsterdam

Liam R. Findlay is a designer of themed attractions who also works for AromaPrime, advising attractions on how to enhance their experiences using scent. AromaPrime was founded in 1973, and it creates weird and wonderful pongs for venues like Alton Towers, The British Museum and Madame Tussauds. The company's collection of over 400 concoctions ranges from Dinosaur to Dungeon, and Pirate Ship to Penguin Sick. While Liam helps clients select or develop the best smells to tell their stories, he also assists in implementing them in the most effective ways.

Transcriptions:

Kelly Molson: Welcome to Skip the Queue, a podcast for people working in or working with visitor attractions. I'm your host, Kelly Molson.

We're getting smelly on the podcast today as I speak with Liam Findlay, Multisensory Attraction Designer and Sensing Specialist at AromaPrime. Liam discusses the use of Aroma's storytelling and psychological influences in your attraction and why smell is a form of mind control. 

If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue.

Kelly Molson: Liam, hello. Welcome to Skip the Queue.

Liam Findlay: Hi, how are you?

Kelly Molson: I'm very good. How are you is the question?

Liam Findlay: I'm very good. Fatigued from lots of orders, but it's a good thing.

Kelly Molson: Right, we'll talk about that in a minute because it's a very busy season for you. Our listeners will find out why soon, but first, icebreaker questions. So I'm going to start with a couple of topical ones. I want to know, what is your favourite smell and also, what is the smell that turns your stomach?

Liam Findlay: My favourite smell is probably a kind of, when I was growing up there was an attraction called The Timewalk in the town I lived in, and it had a musty smell in a Black Death scene. And it was very scary and dark in there and it had that horrible smell but the attraction's been closed for over a decade now, and everyone in the town remembers it for its Black Death smell. And now I work for the company that made that smell, so I have kind of a personal connection to it.

Kelly Molson: Oh, how funny. Okay, so do they have the smell in the archives? So can you go and find the smell and it takes you back to that attraction?

Liam Findlay: Yeah, we're selling it now as The Timewalk smell for locals who might want to transport themselves back.

Kelly Molson: This is amazing. And again, this is something that we will talk about a little bit later, the reasons why smell is so emotive for people. Okay. And what about the worst smell?

Liam Findlay: I'm not sure when it comes to that because I'm so used to all sorts of horrible smells, and especially with AromaPrime, everything's artificial so I know it's just chemicals, so I don't tend to be repulsed by them. Personally, I think things that are to do with people's mouths, like food-related smells or if someone's just been eating and you can smell it.

Kelly Molson: Like if someone had eaten raw onion or something like that? Yeah, okay. All right. I mean, mine's tequila but there's a whole other story around that that we'll save for another day. All right. What are you most likely to buy when you exit through the gift shop?

Liam Findlay: Probably a magnet for my parents' fridge.

Kelly Molson: Do they collect magnets when they go on holiday and stuff? Is it full of them?

Liam Findlay: Yeah, it's kind of a mandatory thing, if someone goes on holiday they have to get a magnet for the fridge.

Kelly Molson: Okay. All right, I like that. That's quite a good collection to have. 

Liam Findlay: Unless they sell smells, Efteling sells smells of its rides in its gift shop. So that's a must do for me.

Kelly Molson: I've never heard of that before. Is that the only attraction that you know that does that?

Liam Findlay: I think Europa Park might have done it, and Blackpool Pleasure Beach has candles that are inspired by the rides, but they aren't the actual smells. So yeah, I don't know why more places don't do it.

Kelly Molson: Well, maybe they will after they hear this podcast, Liam, who knows? Okay. And if you could choose any attraction to create a smell for, what attraction would it be?

Liam Findlay: It's hard to say because I kind of work on lots of smells for all sorts of attractions anyway. I think I always enjoy kind of time travel ones, maybe linking back to The Timewalk attraction that I grew up with, because they always have a nice variety of smells with all the different time periods you can go through.

Kelly Molson: Okay, yeah, all right. So yeah, there's a little bit of variety involved in what you could create with them, so it wouldn't all be the same.

Liam Findlay: Yeah.

Kelly Molson: Okay, interesting. Thank you. All right, Liam, what's your unpopular opinion?

Liam Findlay: I would say that bad smells are not necessarily bad in that like I was just saying they can bring back memories. We work with lots of care homes at AromaPrime, and sometimes you can have a horrible fishy smell that's used in scare mazes, but it's also used to bring back memories for people that used to be fishermen or fisherwomen. Bad smells, if you put them in different contexts, they can actually not be so bad. Sometimes you can have a kind of horrible manure smell, but if you present it as something like a lovely countryside kind of atmosphere, people can react positively to it. And actually, rhino dung, I was sniffing some rhino dung last week.

Kelly Molson: As you do.

Liam Findlay: At Chessington World of Adventures, and we were saying how it's just got a lovely kind of grassy smell to it because the rhinos eat grass, but then when you realise it's rhino dung, you might end up reacting to it negatively.

Kelly Molson: So we need to reframe our minds around what that smell is and take away the bad connotation of it?

Liam Findlay: Yeah. Bad smells are perhaps not always necessarily bad depending on how you look at them, that's my message.

Kelly Molson: All right, listeners, well let us know what you think. As ever, I'm going to need to reframe tequila in my mind. Maybe, I don't know, maybe if we meet up at an event, someone can help me do that, who knows? I thought about you while I was on holiday a few weeks ago, Liam. I don't often think about many of my podcast guests when I'm on a holiday, but you definitely came to mind. It was because of some of the things that we're going to talk about today.

So I took my husband and my daughter into the Museum of Torture, which was a very small museum in Tuscany, in Sienna, probably not child friendly, I'm not going to lie. I don't think my 14 month old was overly impressed. But it was very small museum, we went down into the dungeon area and it was very small and it was very dark and it smelt really musty. And it was the one part of the museum for me that really captured that sense of for like, "Oh, this is a dangerous place to be, something horrid is going to happen here." And it was because of the smell. You didn't have that in any of the other areas.

And it was really fascinating, you walked around and you looked at these torture instruments and you saw how people were treated and what they did to people but that area was the one place that it really got under my skin and up my nose, but for the right reasons because of the smell. And it instantly made me think about you and what you guys do. So tell us a little bit about AromaPrime and then tell us a little bit about what your role is there.

Liam Findlay: Well, AromaPrime's been around since 1973, so we're turning 50 next year and throughout that time we've been making immersive smells for visitor attractions. So it could be to kind of increase anticipation and anxiety in a rollercoaster queue with the smell of fire, for example, like at Alton Towers it's Wickerman rollercoaster. Or it could be to educate people and engage them in the past if it's a historical smell. It could be to kind of bring about certain feelings if they're walking into a hotel and you want a lovely signature scent that's going to make people relaxed, or if it's historical or a nostalgic sense that are used in care homes like I was just saying to kind of bring back fond memories. So there's kind of lots of ways you can use smells to trick the mind and change how people feel, maybe feeling anxious in the Torture Museum.

And my job is to advise attractions on how to implement these smells and which smells might work best and kind of lead to the best results in their attractions. So whether they want to make people feel a certain way or if they want to tell a certain story and use smells to change how the story's being told as it developed. So it's very exciting, always lots of different projects.

Kelly Molson: It is. And I'm really intrigued about how you came to be in this role. So your bio says that you advise on Aroma's storytelling influences, psychological influences and thematic influences, as well as practical ways to utilise aroma in different environments. All of this is really, really fascinating. But what did you study and how did you get to be this person that advises them on all these things?

Liam Findlay: Well, I actually did an animation degree and then I worked in the animation industry for a while. And from that I kind of learned lots of design skills and storytelling skills and I ended up putting that into work at an escape room where I designed escape rooms. So there was kind of sound design and visual design and telling stories again. And then I ended up working freelance designing experiences and museum interpretation for attractions like castles and more escape rooms and a ghost train on one occasion. And through working in the attractions industry as a designer, I wondered if I could maybe contribute my kind of understanding of the processes behind attraction design and put that into smell. And I knew that AromaPrime existed and I wondered if maybe I could help them out through that. So I sent them an email and they said, "Oh, we're looking for someone like you," and they took me on and I think it was late 2018 maybe so it's been a few years now and it's been going quite well.

Kelly Molson: So you've kind of honed your craft working at AromaPrime. So can you just explain a little bit about, I understand about the storytelling influences that we talked about and how smell brings back those memories and it can transport you to a different place, tell me about the psychological influences and the thematic influences. What do you mean by those? How does that work?

Liam Findlay: It's a bit like what I was saying about the rollercoaster queue or in a scare maze, for example, you might use a pleasant smell that lots of people have a familiar connection with like the smell of bananas. Maybe not everyone likes bananas, maybe the smell of chocolate, to kind of lift people's spirits and give them a false sense of security so that when they suddenly turn a corner and see something horrid and it has a disgusting kind of rotten smell, you're kind of crafting the psychological journey for them. So you're bringing back these pleasant emotions and memories and then you're twisting it. And maybe that horrible smell will be the smell of vomit that most people will have really unpleasant associations with and it'll make them feel uncomfortable when suddenly a pig man jumps out with a chainsaw. So you can tie the sense into how the story develops and manipulate or influence emotions as it goes along.

Kelly Molson: Yeah. And what about the thematic influences? What does that mean in terms of smell?

Liam Findlay: It's probably the most basic way of looking at sense. So at fantasy experience for example, like we did a wizard mini golf attraction recently, so it's kind of binding or creating sense that apply to a theme. And sometimes that can be tricky if it's a fantasy theme, you might not really be sure what kinds of smells potions have. But with our unicorn smell, for example, we sniff some horses, as you would, and we read lots of ancient myths about unicorns and we kind of approached it like we would approach historical smells. So we want them to be backed up with stories and kind of authenticity where possible to make sure that the theme is as strong as it can be.

Kelly Molson: Isn't that funny though because when you said unicorn, the image of unicorn in my head is glittery and pink because every little girls are obsessed by glittery pink unicorns. And so I was like, "Oh yeah, but for me, unicorns smell a bit sugary," a sweet sugary smell they'd smell like.

Liam Findlay: Yeah, well that's what the final product is really. It's like got a little undertone of horse, but it's mostly like a birthday cake.

Kelly Molson: Yes. Oh, I love that. Thank you for explaining that. That's put me right. Yeah, it's really weird how you see what something looks like and you instantly imagine what it smells like, even though I have no clue what a unicorn smells like, obviously.

I guess it's the same feeling, the one that you spoke about in terms of making people feel comfortable and then shocking them is, I can remember reading something years ago about if you are selling your house, have some freshly baked bread just come out of the oven because that is a smell that everyone finds quite comforting and quite homely. And so then if you can smell that while you're in a new home, you think, "Oh yeah, I could see myself living here. This is a cozy place to be, isn't it?" So it's that kind of sense that you're trying to get build in people.

Liam Findlay: Yeah, it's a big thing in retail using scents in shops. There was a study where people went into a room, I think it was full of shoes and it wasn't scented and they kind of responded to what they thought of the products, whether it was shoes or not. And then there were some other participants who went into a room that was scented and it had the same products and the people in the scented room valued the products as being more expensive, or they guessed that they would be more expensive because they saw them as a higher quality because the room was scented even though they didn't realise it was the scent that was causing that.

Kelly Molson: Because they could smell the leather and the... Right, okay. Gosh, that's interesting, isn't it? How it can affect how you perceive something as well.

Liam Findlay: Yeah, it can change perception. And also like you say about pleasant smells, if you smell something like bread, it makes you kind of hungry because it kind of triggers those memories of enjoying bread and therefore you'll start to kind of seek it out and you won't necessarily find bread, but you'll seek out some kind of satisfaction and that satisfaction might end up being purchasing something.

Kelly Molson: A very expensive house purchase.

Liam Findlay: Yeah.

Kelly Molson: How do you create smells? Because I watched one of the interviews that you did, I think it's for the BBC, which I will link to in the show notes, it's really interesting. But I think one of them said that your recipes, some of them are based on 30 year old recipes, these smells. So how do you even start to create the smells?

Liam Findlay: Well, yeah, well like I was saying, we are turning 50 next year, so it was actually slightly inaccurate in the BBC video is-

Kelly Molson: Sorry, kids, it's wrong.

Liam Findlay: Well that was my fault, I told them the wrong date. Because actually, there are not many records about the company history and I only a while ago realised or found a document that said when it was founded. So it's always been a bit of a mystery. But yeah, over that time we've accumulated over 400 aromas, so we've kind of got a big stock of anything anyone could imagine just about. And if they want something that's a bit more specific, sometimes we might combine our existing scents. 

So it might be a bit of grass with a bit of rotten eggs for some kind of Roald Dahl soup for example. And then if we are making something from scratch, it will be a case of finding the chemicals that kind of have certain qualities like you might have a chemical that is generally used in rose products because it has a rose smell and then you can combine it with others. And often we'll have references like maybe rhino dung, we've been sent otter poo and jaguar urine before to get that right.

Kelly Molson: In the post? Go get the post today, I wonder what could be in it, that's a surprise.

Liam Findlay: Yeah. So sometimes we'll be kind of mixing things and sniffing and then we'll also send lots of samples to the clients so they can say if it's accurate or not and it works that way.

Kelly Molson: That's brilliant, isn't it? Funny to understand what might turn up in your letter box each day. So when you work with an attraction, Halloween is a very obvious market for you. There's lots of scare things that happening and they are very smell related. But how do you work with an attraction? What's that process of them calling you in and going, "Look, we've got this thing that we are doing, how can you work with us?" What do you do?

Liam Findlay: It kind of varies on what their end goal is. Sometimes regardless of what the kind of function of the attraction is, sometimes it will just be a case of them telling us how large the space is and then we'll advise on the kind of machine that they'll need because we do machines as well and the themes as well and then we'll suggest some scents and then they put them in the machines. And it can be quite a quick process sometimes.

If it's more complex, it might be like a museum that wants a historical scent and they don't want it spreading around the whole museum and stinking things out or ruining the paintings down the corridor, there can be more advice to give in that regard. So museums often it's good to use what's called dry diffusion when you have an object that's scented rather than liquid kind of going out as a mist into the air. So that object will just kind of emit a smell and you can maybe put a lid over it or have it in a container that has a puffer. So yeah, I would often ask what the end goal is and then kind of make some suggestions from there.

Kelly Molson: Yeah, because I hadn't thought about if it's a museum, those artefacts and those things could be damaged by certain smells. It's also, I guess you have to be quite consultative in your approach about what you offer to them individually.

Liam Findlay: Yeah, another case or another issue can be around whether people want to smell things or not. Like if they go to a scare maze, they'll probably expect to be repulsed. But if you go into a museum, I suppose it's because people aren't really used to it, they're not always prepared to sniff things. So it can be good to have flaps so people can choose whether they're going to smell things or not. Or maybe some places will put up little warnings if it's kind of a profound world war trench set that they can walk into and there's going to be horrible smell of bodies and things. Sometimes there might be a warning because it almost equates to having gory images, like in museums you'll have warnings that there'll be gory images here.

Kelly Molson: Yeah, and I guess talking about what we were saying earlier about those emotive, it can take you right back to a place, I guess that could be quite frightening for some people as well if they don't want to be taken back to those places, for example.

Liam Findlay: Yeah. And because smell's kind of flexible and a horrible smell relating to war could also be a horrible smell relating to some other unpleasant personal memory. So yeah, sometimes you have to think about how the smell's going to be presented in a way that's going to work for the visitors.

Kelly Molson: Okay. Thorpe Park, the Dungeons and Warwick Castle all have promotional scent ranges. This is something that you helped them develop, isn't it? I think this was during the pandemic. Am I right? So can you tell us about this? How did this happen?

Liam Findlay: Well, it was a tricky time because all the parks were closed so the parks were wondering what to do while they were closed. And the parks were our customers as well, so we couldn't sell to them. So everyone was kind of out of action at that point. So we were kind of thinking of ways that we could engage people in our products for the parks and for us. So I think it was Thorpe Park we approached first and we just suggested that we could kind of release some of their smells that they used in their scare mazes and eventually it was Warwick Castle and the smells they used in their Kingmaker Experience and the Dungeons and their smells to make them available, branded under the scenes that they appear in those attractions so people could buy the Blacksmith smell at the Warwick Castle Kingmaker Experience. And that was a nice way to take people back to the attractions while they weren't able to visit.

And it helped AromaPrime as well because we were kind of profiting from the customers of our customers in a way that everyone was kind of happy with because it was promoting the parks and the customers were happy because they were being taken back to the parks. There was one customer who contacted me and was thanking me for the opportunity to buy the smell of the Tomb Blaster ride at Chessington World of Adventures because her sister had autism and she was really struggling with the lockdown and being able to transport herself back to the ride through the smell during lockdown kind of brought her lots of comfort. So it turned out to be a kind of lovely and beneficial project for everyone, a nice way of adapting to the scenario.

Kelly Molson: That is so wonderful, isn't it? By the power of smell, being able to be in your favourite place without being able to leave your house. That's incredible, what an amazing thing to have been able to do.

Liam Findlay: Yeah, and fans really enjoy it. The Wicker Man Woodsmoke smell from Alton Towers is really popular and we get people that diffuse it in their living room and make all the lights red and they play the music and send us photos.

Kelly Molson: That's taking true fan to a whole nother level, isn't it? Recreating the smell of your favourite attraction in your living room, wow. Okay, that's great. But there's other ways of using smells as well, isn't it? And I think this is something that you've been talking about quite a lot on LinkedIn that I was really interested in. A smell tour of Amsterdam has been developed. And you've been part of this, haven't you? So this isn't just about attractions, this is about tourism as well. Tell us about this. I don't fully understand what it is and how you've developed it.

Liam Findlay: Well, this was run by Odeuropa, who I've been collaborating with a lot. And Odeuropa is a kind of global group of academics who are working to improve the ways that senses are used to tell historical stories and how they are used their museums. And one of their projects was this smell tour of Amsterdam and this was done through a scratch and sniff card. So my job was to illustrate the card and it was a map of Amsterdam so you could kind of follow a route and go to an apothecary that had a certain ingredient to its perfume that it once used or you could go down to the canals and smell what the canals used to smell like hundreds of years ago and kind of scratch as you went around. And they developed an app as well so you could kind of track where you were going.

And that was a really nice way to engage people in history and they were able to access the stories themselves. They weren't just going through a museum and reading stuff, they were properly exploring and sniffing and taking it all in. And it was a really exciting way. It was throughout the month of September and the cards were available at Amsterdam Museum and it was an exciting way to get people enjoying and almost living the past because they were going through the real places where all this stuff happened.

Kelly Molson: That's such a brilliant idea. So yeah, it's completely immersive, isn't it? You are in the area, you're doing a walking tour so you can see the places that are being described to you and then you can smell what they smell like a hundred years ago.

Liam Findlay: Yeah, it was cool.

Kelly Molson: Wow. That is really cool.

Liam Findlay: Got lots of good responses.

Kelly Molson: And I guess you worked with them in the same mode that you would an attraction, it's just understanding what used to be there, finding the smells that you already have and then bringing them all together into the scratch card.

Liam Findlay: Yeah. In this case, Odeuropa already had the smells because they've been working on lots of different historical smells themselves like the smell of hell, I think based on a kind of 1700s painting, maybe it was another century.

Kelly Molson: And what does hell smell like? Can you describe it to us?

Liam Findlay: From what I understand, it's mostly fire and bodies.

Kelly Molson: Burning hot stuff? Okay.

Liam Findlay: But one of the members of Odeuropa had worked on an exhibition in The Hague where people could go around a gallery and they had paintings and smell puffers like foot pumps so they could pump it and a smell would come out and that would be the smell of the painting or of something that was in the painting. And it was a nice way to kind of engage them with the contents of the painting, kind of look a bit harder and think about what's making that smile and why did it smell that way? So Odeuropa already had lots of interesting smiles that they could incorporate into this.

Kelly Molson: That's brilliant. I would absolutely go on a scratch and sniff tour of anywhere.

Liam Findlay: Yeah, well it's a nice model because you can kind of apply it to any city or even, I don't know, an ancient school or a hospital or all sorts of places.

Kelly Molson: And if you think, I guess there's just so many advantages to it as well for people that can't see the places that they're in but can still feel that emotive connection to them by being able to smell what those places smell like.

Liam Findlay: Yeah, smell is very good in terms of accessibility because even if you're on a theme park ride and you're going along in a boat and maybe there are cannons going off, if you can't see the cannons or you can't hear the cannon sound effects, if you smell it, it kind of means that you're not missing out on the story.

Kelly Molson: Yeah, it's brilliant. I hope they do more of those, I'd be up for that.

Liam Findlay: Yeah.

Kelly Molson: There's a quote that I read from you that said, "Smell is a form of mind control." It really resonated with me, especially because of some of the things that we've been talking about. But let's go back to what you started to talk about at the beginning of our interview was about the smells for care homes because you've worked on quite a few projects for those as well. And I think obviously this is not attraction related, but I just think this is such a wonderful thing to be able to use your skillset for. Tell us a little bit about what you've done.

Liam Findlay: Well, care homes was one of the company's first kind of activities I suppose back in the seventies. I mean, back then it would be the smells of the 1920s that would be made to take people back into the past. And that's something interesting as well because the kind of residents who are always getting that bit older and the smells that will be familiar to them change gradually so we have to kind of think, okay, maybe World War smells, I saw on Twitter someone was complaining that their mother was being subjected to World War II songs, even though most care home residents probably weren't around back then anymore or at least a small number.

So yeah, we've been producing nostalgic smells for care homes for a long time and it can be really nice if there's like carbolic soap for example is a popular one. If there's a smell that lots of people perhaps with dementia who will have personal memories with, it's a nice way of unlocking those memories, especially you tend not to lose your smell memory. So if you smell something from the past and even if you have memory problems, smelling that can kind of unlock something from years and years ago and bring back those memories and encourage conversation with the other residents that you might live with about their memories and then they'll kind of start talking about it and sniffing and it can be a nice way to lift spirits as well as bringing back memories.

Kelly Molson: Yeah, it's wonderful, isn't it? I saw the clip, and again this was in the clip that we will add into the show notes, but it was about the soap smell and the lady said, "Oh, it just makes me feel comfortable." It took her to a happier place where she just had really good memories of it and it was just such a lovely clip to see, you could almost see her face kind of light up with the smell because it took her back there instantly. It was just brilliant. And just think that's such a lovely thing to do.

Liam Findlay: Yeah, there's a company called Rempods, which they make a kind of sets for all care homes like a recreated nostalgic pub from the sixties or a train carriage, that's quite a popular one. So like a wall and there's a window that's a screen and you can see the countryside going past. And we work with them quite a lot to supply smells to kind of bring that whole experience together. So that kind of ties into the theme entertainment as well.

Kelly Molson: Yeah, it's like a mini attraction in a care home with sense. That's incredible. I had no idea that that was even a possibility. What a brilliant thing to be able to do for people.

Liam Findlay: Yeah. It could even be as simple as a memory box that. We have a customer who makes memory boxes for care homes, which are just kind of full of props and things that the residents might be familiar with and they include the smells as well. And that same customer, she is a funeral director and we have what are called aroma cubes, which are normally used by care homes and they're just little cubes you can pick up and sniff. 

And there was someone who was in her chapel of rest who had died and the person who had died had worked in a bakery so this funeral director had put the smell of bread in a little aroma cube just in the same room. And when her family, the person's family visited in the chapel, they could smell this and they just found it really kind of nice and it took them back to her bakery and it wasn't kind of gimmicky, the room wasn't full of bread smells, it was just a little thing that they could use to have a nice moment with. And it worked really well.

Kelly Molson: That is so lovely. I was just thinking, because I lost my granddad a really, really long time ago, I think I was like 20 when I lost him. And if I could be in a room now and his smell would be Polos, he had Polos, pockets full of Polos everywhere, even when he passed away, all of his cardigans had Polo packets in them. And that would be the smell that would bring me back to him instantly. 

So I can completely imagine how comforted they were by smelling that. Oh, it sounds really lovely. Liam, I know that you're super busy at the moment because we are recording this at the beginning of October and Halloween is coming and everyone goes crazy at Halloween, right? So you've been busy since probably a good few months with people ordering in their smells. What's the most popular Halloween smell on order at the moment?

Liam Findlay: I'd say the familiar one is the most popular because you want smells that are going to affect the largest range of people. So it will be things like vomit and poo and rotting flesh is actually popular. And I suppose not many people would be familiar with that.

Kelly Molson: It's not a statement you hear very often, "Rotting flesh is very popular." It's not popular here.

Liam Findlay: We've released a new blocked urine smell as well. Because we already had a urine smell, but I wanted to try something that had more of a kick to it. So we've got kind of two urine choices this year.

Kelly Molson: Wow, wow. We've taken it to a whole new level of poo and wee smells on the podcast people. Liam, thank you for joining us today. I've thoroughly enjoyed talking about this and I think it's such a fascinating subject to talk about. So thanks for sharing your insight. We always ask our guests for a book that they'd like to recommend to us, something that they love or something that's helped them in some way. What would you like to share with us today?

Liam Findlay: Mine is Theme Park Design and the Art of Themed Entertainment by David Younger. And this is like, I think-

Kelly Molson: It's like a Bible, Liam. It's huge.

Liam Findlay: Yeah. Well I was just going to say, lots of attraction designers kind of treat this as their Bible because it's like a big encyclopedia of everything to do with theme park design. So there's a bit about smells in it, there's a bit here about costumed characters, there's stuff on cues and how different cues work. So it's like anyone wants to go into theme park design or attraction design in general, even if it's like museums, this is a great resource.

And actually David Younger, the author, I've just been working with him because he's started a Kickstarter for a video game that's based on a theme park sort of. And we've put together a scent collection of the different locations in the game so as people are playing, they can sniff the smells and kind of transport themselves into the world of the game.

Kelly Molson: Oh, how cool. You must send over the link to us and then we can pop that in the show notes for any of the listeners that will be interested in it.

Liam Findlay: Yeah.

Kelly Molson: Okay. So look, as ever, I feel like this is going to be an expensive one for my marketing budget, because that looked like a really big book, Liam. But as ever, if you'd like to win a copy of this book, then if you pop over to our Twitter account and retweet the episode announcement with the words, "I want Liam's book," then you'll be in a chance of winning it. Liam, thank you for joining us on the podcast today. Good luck with Halloween, I know it's a really crazy busy time, but thank you for coming on and sharing all of your wonderful smells with us today.

Liam Findlay: That's all right. Thank you for having me. It's been fun to talk about them.

Kelly Molson:  Thanks for listening to Skip The Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned. 

Skip the queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website, rubbercheese.com/podcast.

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Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is  Kelly Molson, MD of Rubber Cheese.

Download our free ebook The Ultimate Guide to Doubling Your Visitor Numbers

If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website rubbercheese.com/podcast.

If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this podcast

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Show references:

https://decisionhouse.co.uk/

https://twitter.com/decision_house

https://www.linkedin.com/in/steve-mills-0528661b/

Steve Mills set up Decision House in July 2017, having spent 15 years at leading insight agency BDRC where he was Board Director and Head of the Culture & Tourism team.

His work focusses on generating and sharing insight to further understanding of both how to deliver better experiences for existing visitors, members, customers or other stakeholders and how to effectively grow audiences and develop new markets. 

During the pandemic, Steve provided regular insight to the sector through ALVA, producing regular reports and webinars on public sentiment towards returning to visitor attractions and reaction to the ‘new’ visit experience in a Covid world.  

In more ‘normal’ recent times he has delivered insight for clients across the culture and leisure attraction sector including Historic Royal Palaces, Royal Collection, Royal Botanic Gardens Kew, Royal Museums Greenwich and the National Trust, as well as developing Voice of the Visitor, a new template helping attractions to gather and benchmark visitor feedback.   

Transcriptions:

Kelly Molson: Welcome to Skip the Queue, a podcast for people working in or working with visitor attractions. I'm your host, Kelly Molson. Each episode, I speak with industry experts from the attractions world.

In today's episode, I speak with Steve Mills, founder of Decision House. What does the cost of living crisis mean for attractions as we move into winter and beyond? Steve gives us a snapshot of how your potential visitors are feeling, and what the next few months might hold for the sector.

If you like what you hear, subscribe on all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue. We have a small issue with Steve's audio, but don't let that detract from the important content. This is a really, really important episode.

Kelly Molson: Steve, thank you so much for joining me on Skip the Queue podcast today. It's really good to see you.

Steve Mills: Pleasure. Thanks for inviting me, Kelly.

Kelly Molson: I've got a few icebreaker questions for you, Steve.

Steve Mills: Go for it.

Kelly Molson: You can only save one of the Muppets. Which Muppet do you choose, and why?

Steve Mills: Oh my God. Well, I'll tell you the one I'd like to be, I'd like to be the drummer, Animal. Aspiring to be fun and exciting and a bit off the wall, really, to be honest. But I would say very much it's an aspiration rather than reality with me, to be honest. I'm probably more like Scooter, who is the more rational, down to earth, logical one.

Kelly Molson: I think that might come across in what we talk about today, Steve.

Steve Mills: Okay. Fair enough, fair enough. No, that's definitely it for me.

Kelly Molson: All right. How would you describe your job to a two year old?

Steve Mills: I find out all the fun stuff that people like doing.

Kelly Molson: That's a great answer. That is a great answer. You nailed that, Steve.

Steve Mills: Good.

Kelly Molson: Okay. Last show that you binge-watched on your television viewing platform of choice? I don't know why I've done that. I'm not the BBC. No one cares what I say.

Steve Mills: No, no, it's all right.

Kelly Molson: Netflix, Amazon, whatever. Disney+.

Steve Mills: I'm quite sporty, so Disney+, I've been watching this series called Welcome to Wrexham, which is all about Wrexham Football Club and the fact that Ryan Reynolds and the other guy whose name everybody always forgets ... Jim, Joe, McElhenney or whatever it is, taking over the football club. And it's a kind of fly on the wall documentary about how they've taken over the club, and trying to make a success of it. But very interestingly, there's lots of these fly on the wall, football type documentaries, and this one is made for an American audience. It has some quite subtle differences in there, so they have things like translations between English and American phrases for things like bloke means buddy and that kind of thing. It has got a little twist in it, which I quite enjoy.

Kelly Molson: That's interesting. That's on my list, to watch that one. But we've watched the Tottenham one that was on Amazon, because we're big Tottenham fans. And we watched ... What was the one ... Was it Sunderland? Was there one about-

Steve Mills: Yeah.

Kelly Molson: Yeah, we watched that one as well, that was really good. Okay, we'll watch that one, and there's little, subtle differences because it's for Americans.

Steve Mills: Yes.

Kelly Molson: All right, Steve. What is your unpopular opinion?

Steve Mills: That's an interesting first question because given my profession, which we'll come on to, my job is really about conveying others' opinions rather than having them of my own, to be honest with you. But my unpopular opinion is sticking with the sporting theme, really, is that I think that there's no better sporting drama than a five day cricket test match.

Kelly Molson: Oh God.

Steve Mills: Which is definitely an unpopular opinion, to be honest. Or even a four day cricket county championship match that's watched by three men and a dog on a wet Tuesday in April, to be honest. Because I know it's difficult to believe that anyone could be interested in a sport where you could have a draw after five days' worth of activity, but for me, it's like reading a novel, but it's being played out in front of your eyes, in many ways. There's time to get to know all the characters properly, and story kind of ebbs and flows, and you get these unexpected instances happening that change the plot. And you can see these individual battles gradually unfolding during five days that you'd never get in a couple of hours.

Steve Mills: And what I like about it is it's a kind of test of character and a test of patience for the players, not just the audience, as well as pure, sporting ability. Yeah, I'm sure it's a very unpopular opinion, but I think it's a kind of antidote to where we're going as a society generally, so it's the whole antidote to having low attention span, these quick rewards and these superficial pleasures. You don't want any of that, go and watch a five day test match. Which ironically, I don't think I've ever done, to be honest with you. But it's certainly something I've got in mind when I retire in a few years' time.

Kelly Molson: Steve, it was a really beautiful analogy. I really enjoyed your analogy about it being like a novel, and playing out the roles and the characters and stuff, but you have not sold it to me.

Steve Mills: I wasn't intending to.

Kelly Molson: But well done on the analogy. All right, listeners, let us know what you think about Steve's cricket is a novel analogy, and we should all be in watching cricket for five days. I know that I've got a lot of different things that I could be spending my days on, but there you go. Thank you for sharing.

Steve Mills: That's all right.

Kelly Molson: Right, Steve, I've asked you to come on today because we're going to do a bit of a state of the nation chat. But tell us a little bit about you and what Decision House does, for our listeners that haven't heard of you, which I will be surprised if they haven't.

Steve Mills: Okay. No, thank you, yeah. I started Decision House back in 2017. I used to head up the Tourism and Culture team at BDRC, which is now called BVA BDRC. I headed those up for a good few years before that. Decision House really specialises in generating insights that help organisations in the culture and tourism sector specifically, and particularly attractions, really. Just helping them to make better decisions for their organisation, hence the Ronseal type name, Decision House.

Steve Mills: And we mainly do that by conducting fresh, primary research, either with your current customers, so whether you call your current customers visitors or bookers or members, and that helps with making sure that we deliver, or they can deliver, optimum experiences for their visitors. Or, we do research with prospective customers, so more market and audience research to understand how they can grow their customer bases, actually. We can do that. We do both quantitative research, so the typical surveys, online surveys, face-to-face surveys et cetera, or we also do qualitative research as well, so things like focus groups, in-depth interviews, which really get under the skin of the issues that organisations have. Typically, quantitative surveys will measure visitor opinion, whereas qualitative gets to the root of why visitors have those particular opinions.

Steve Mills: That's really what we do, and during COVID, we did an awful lot of work to really track public sentiment. And that led us to setting up visitor benchmarking surveys to understand reactions the visitors had to COVID measures being put in place once attractions reopened back in 2020. And that's really, both of those surveys, public sentiment work for ALVA and the visitor benchmark and consumer views for the last couple of years and still going now, really, albeit they've evolved into pieces of work that aren't COVID related anymore. They're more general sentiment work now.

Kelly Molson: And they've been incredibly valuable, Steve. And I reference them continuously, and I do reference the BVA BDRC's work as well. And they've been incredibly insightful. Now, we spoke a couple of weeks ago about coming on to talk about the state of the nation and where people at, because what had been happening is I had been contacted by a few attractions, saying, "What have you heard? Numbers are down a little bit. What have you heard? What's the sentiment like?" And I always fire them your way, but I thought why not get the man in himself to talk us through where we're at?

Kelly Molson: We've got a really weird situation at the moment in the UK. I mean, we're recording this. It's the fifth of October. We're in the run-up to what is usually a busy half-term, and then the run up to Christmas which can be quite quiet for a number of attractions, depending on what you're doing. But we've got the cost of living crisis, we've got the pound was at its lowest since the '70s, which blows my mind. We've had the death of our monarch, we have a new king, and a new prime minister, all happening at once. I mean, that's quite a lot to be dealing with. But I guess, what does all of this mean for attractions as we move into that winter period and beyond? And I thought this is what we could talk about today, Steve. So, where are we at? It's big question, but where are we at?

Steve Mills: A massive question. I'll try my best to try and pick some of those issues apart, really. I think if we deal with the death of Her Majesty the Queen first of all, and what the ramifications of that might be ... And this is, I guess, a personal opinion, first of all, really. I mean, I think domestically, it's not going to have a huge impact, if I'm perfectly honest. People will move on relatively quickly from that. I suspect attractions won't see ... Unless you are something that is specifically related to the monarchy, you probably won't see a huge amount of difference. I mean, clearly somewhere like Windsor Castle is already seeing queues of people outside the gates, for example.

Steve Mills: But I think outside of that niche, domestically, I doubt we'll see a huge difference. But then, obviously, internationally, it has raised the profile. And actually, I think showcased all the positive associations that people abroad associate with the UK, and why they travel here. It has emphasised our heritage, it has emphasised our amazing ability in terms of the pomp and ceremony, et cetera. And it has been a great showcase for London sites, to be honest. I think internationally, it should have a significant impact going into next year, allied of course with the low value of the pound. Now, it's not all good, obviously, but obviously, in exchange rates terms, it's a good thing for next year, particularly [inaudible 00:10:48]. I guess that's where I'd see the death of the monarch situation.

Kelly Molson: It's interesting, what you said about the pomp. I mean, as we watched the funeral here, a very emotional day, actually. And I was transfixed to the ceremony for the entire day. It was quite mesmerising. But in my head, I just kept thinking, people outside of the UK that watched this, it's strange, isn't it? It's quite strange, and it's very grand, and it's a real sense of what the UK is about, that kind of level of ceremony, and people coming together. It was quite phenomenal. And it did make me think ultimately, it's a really sad day, but it's such a big thing for the UK to be able to do. I wonder if that does represent a surge in international tourism because of that, and people wanted to come and be a small part in that kind of thing.

Steve Mills: Yeah. I think increasingly, whether it's people from the UK or people coming into the UK, people want to do things now that is different. And they want to be seen to be doing things that you can only do in one particular location. And I think the UK, I don't think there is anywhere quite like it in terms of ability to deliver on things like the pomp and ceremony. And that's what really sets us apart from many other countries around the world. And I think we shouldn't forget that, and not be afraid to promote it.

Kelly Molson: Yeah, absolutely. And then that brings us to the new king. There will be a coronation at some point.

Steve Mills: Yeah, it's similar, similar.

Kelly Molson: So, similar kind of reaction to that, probably, and something very positive to celebrate as well.

Steve Mills: Yeah. But then yeah, the other side of it is I think you mentioned cost of living.

Kelly Molson: Small, little issue that we're all struggling with.

Steve Mills: Probably yeah, less positive. I think with that one, as a lot of listeners will know, we have been commissioned by ALVA throughout COVID, and also a couple of waves this year, just to gauge public sentiment into how people are feeling about visitor attractions. We did a wave back in June this year, which first highlighted some financial concerns for the attraction-visiting public. And it also said at that point that COVID actually was still a noticeable barrier, particularly for the older generation and those who are more vulnerable. We're just literally hot off the press at the end of September, so we did another wave the 22nd and 27th of September, just to update that and try to understand how people are feeling about visiting attractions in the autumn and the winter, up until about February next year. So, how attractions are going to cope.

Steve Mills: And one of the key questions we asked is just a completely open question. People can respond in any way they like to this question. But we just ask, "At the moment, how are you feeling about visiting attractions over the next few months?" As I said, they could say absolutely anything there. We've not prompted them with anything. And I think the issues that are coming up here, first of all on the positive side, is that COVID is being mentioned by less and less people. I think the assumption is that it's completely not an issue any more, but I wouldn't say it has done that. But back in June, we still had 15% of people at that point saying something to do with COVID was putting me off going to visitor attractions, which was partially explaining why we hadn't seen that bounceback to pre pandemic levels.

Steve Mills: That has now, in the September wave, come down to 9%, so it's disappearing. That said, you've still got one in 10 people who have still got some sort of concerns around COVID. As I say, it's particularly older people and vulnerable people that are still saying that. But that's quite positive.

Steve Mills: But then on the other side, the financial concerns have gone up considerably. Again, back in June, we had about 15% of people mentioning some sort of financial concern as a barrier to why they wouldn't be visiting attractions, or would maybe think twice. But that has now gone up to 24, 25%, something like that. So, quite a significant increase. And again, it's as you would expect, it's especially among those with lower incomes, but also families are increasingly expressing financial concerns. And this time around, we asked a specific question as well about whether there was any positive benefit of all the government support around energy bills. And actually, we're finding that it's probably not because any sort of positive benefit of government support is being negated by just the still absolute rises in energy costs.

Steve Mills: It's a difficult situation at the moment, and we've now got around about half the country really feeling that they feel worse off than they did at the same point last year. Clearly, that's going to have an impact.

Kelly Molson: Yeah. I wonder, I mean, I can give you an example. I went to an attraction on Monday. I took my daughter, I met up with some friends, and went to Paradise Wildlife Park for the day. And I definitely thought more about what I was going to spend when I got there than I usually would. And I thought well, I'm quite lucky. My daughter is a big eater. She's not fussy. She eats anything. But I went, do you know what? I'm going to just pack her a packed lunch, so she has got sandwiches, fruit, whatever, and I'll buy myself my lunch when I'm there, and that just saves just a tiny, little bit of money. And it sounds silly. It's insignificant, but it was enough to make me, in my head, go, "I feel a bit better about that."

Kelly Molson: And I probably spent longer at the attraction as well, because in my head I was like, well, "I've paid, I want to get my money's worth. We'll go here and we'll go in the Tumble Tots place and we'll do the soft play." And I just really extended the time that I was at the attraction as well, for the money that I paid for it. And it wasn't unreasonable at all. We had a great day, it's a brilliant, brilliant day out. But it did make me think about just small changes I wouldn't have thought about six months ago.

Steve Mills: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think you've picked up on secondary spend there. I think that is one thing that's going to be a challenge. And also, memberships as well. We were, a bit earlier in the year, seeing people saying things like, "Well, I'll squeeze as much as I possibly can out of my existing memberships," which is a good thing. Makes you more likely to renew. But I think now we've reached the stage where people are starting to do that a bit less, because they've actually scared of any visit occasion because there is secondary spends associated with even a visit occasion that is associated with a membership, because you've got to travel to get there. And then you've got to potentially have something to eat there, or buy something in the shop. And I think the situation is now with some people that they're, even when they have a membership of some organisation, they're actually more reluctant to use it now, more than trying to squeeze as much as possible out of it.

Steve Mills: I think it's going to be a tough time for memberships over the next few months, definitely. We've got, again, evidence from that piece of work that is saying people are less likely to renew and less likely to acquire new memberships over the next few months, because of their personal financial situation. And it's all within that 50% of people who are feeling worse off, obviously. Which I guess on the positive side, what we're seeing is that I guess if there was going to be a prediction, it's that at the high end, limited supply-type products, there's virtually going to be no change there. If you've got limited supply of something that's priced at a high level, I think there is still going to be plenty of demands for that sort of thing. And you see it all the time, really.

Steve Mills: I mean, I think things like the Christmas lights displays, for example, at attractions, I have a feeling they're still going to be okay and do well. I mean, I tried to go to, there's one reasonably local to me at Walterstone. And I don't know if it's completely sold out yet, but I know the slots that we wanted to try and book, we booked three or four weeks ago for it. I think those sorts of events and the higher price point end with limited supply should be okay, in my view.

Kelly Molson: Yeah. And I would agree with that, again from personal experience of trying to book the Audley End miniature railway Christmas experience. All of the weekends are gone. I did manage to get a Friday, thankfully. More for me, to be perfectly honest. I can't wait to go on it. But yeah, those peak Saturdays and weekend slots sold out within hours, and they're all gone completely. Yeah, I definitely agree with you on that.

Kelly Molson: Do you think that that then leads attractions to they're just going to have to try harder in terms of the experience that they're putting on? Should they be looking at trying to offer things that are a bit more unique, at a higher price point?

Steve Mills: Yeah, I think yes, definitely. I think as well, it's important to point out that this isn't going to be across the board. Again, there's a lot of evidence for ... Again, I guess this is all very intuitive, but there's going to be a much higher negative impact on paid attractions than free attractions, so again, there's very strong evidence that people will be switching out from paid attractions to free attractions. But then even within that, within paid attractions, it's perhaps starting to emphasise that this is all going to be about value message. And what else can you do to add value to whatever ticket price is, really?

Steve Mills: Yeah, and again, a third of people said they will visit paid attractions less than normal, and only 13% said more. Whereas on the free attractions side, you've got a third saying they will visit free attractions more than usual, and only 8% said less. And again, that's all driven by those that feel worse off. Yeah, I think it's all completely about that value message over the winter. Need that reassuring communications around it.

Steve Mills: And I think as well, what has also come out of this is there's this assumption that the cost of visiting attractions will be rising at the same rate as everything else in the economy. There were quite a few people saying things like, "just assuming that the cost of visiting attractions was going to be going up". I think there is a really important communications message to put in there, some thought actions to come across, is that we are maybe holding our prices at '22 levels, or whatever it is. Or only increasing it by a small amount, or adding this extra value item in or whatever it is. I think something that is related to value and price has to be the message this year, just to reassure people that actually, we're not going up at the same price as energy and wheat and sunflower oil and all the rest of it. Actually, it's going to be fairly marginal, if anything, for visitor attractions, which I thought was one of the quite interesting things that came out of it.

Kelly Molson: That's really interesting, isn't it? Yeah, I hadn't considered that. I mean, look, it's unfair to say that attractions won't be putting up their prices, because their energy bills are going up just as ours are. Actually, their energy bills are going up more dramatically than ours, because there's currently no cap on businesses. There isn't a reassurance piece to be done, but I think that has to be done quite tactically by the attraction because they can't come out and say, "Look, we're not putting our prices up. We're not doing this," because they might have to because of the cost of living. Okay, but that's something that I wasn't expecting, that they just assumed that it would rise that rapidly.

Steve Mills: Yeah. And coincidentally, I read something somewhere recently in the trade press as well of just someone had done some research across other sectors as well, and was seeing a very similar sort of scenario as well. Actually, when you think about it, average Joe Public, if inflation is at 10%, your immediate thought is well, everything is going up 10%. Why wouldn't it be? Most members of the public wouldn't think about the nuances of what's going up and what isn't going up.

Steve Mills: I think it's just something to bear in mind. Although again, what I would say is that I'm of the view that attractions should try and hold their nerve in terms of pricing. And I suspect there won't be much merit in reducing prices or holding prices as they are just for the sake of it, because I don't think we're talking here about those people who are financially squeezed. The odd pound or two lower admission price at a visitor attraction I don't think is going to make a huge amount of difference to whether they visit or not, to be honest. All you'll be doing is rewarding the people who would visit anyway. Why would you do that? I think it's holding your nerve and being confident that you offer a good value, worthwhile experience.

Kelly Molson: Yeah. Good advice, Steve. And that also backs up the last interview that we had with Simon Addison about being confident in what you're delivering, and the price that you're charging for it. Yeah, really, really good advice. Okay, what else have you discovered?

Steve Mills: I think they were probably the main points, really. Yeah, I mean I think as I said, it's going to be pretty tough for membership, so existing members, we're now seeing they're less likely to renew than they were back in June, and they're less likely to acquire new memberships as well. And yeah, just more reticent about using and squeezing as much value out of their existing membership as well.

Kelly Molson: Yeah. It's interesting, the membership one, because my National Trust membership is up for renewal in January time. We were very kindly gifted it for a wedding present last year. And I'm absolutely going to renew, because for me, it's such incredible value for money. And we were literally talking about it last night. We were like, "Well, that's fine. We'll renew our membership. We'll make sure that we are not only using the brilliant National Trust parks that are around us, like Wimpole and Anglesea Abbey, et cetera, Ickworth, but go further afield as well. Actually, if we're going to use that membership, then we don't mind traveling a little bit further, even though that's going to cost us a bit more in petrol, to go to that attraction because you're then not paying the attraction fee on top of the travel costs as well. Yeah, it's funny. I'd never even considered not renewing it.

Steve Mills: Yeah. And I'm exactly the same. And I guess, let's be clear, here. I said 50% of the population are feeling worse off than they did at this point last year, but then 50% are feeling okay, the same or better. And I think it was something like 15% or so were actually feeling better off than last year, which I think says something about where we're going as a society. You've got people dividing even further, to be honest with you. There are still significant proportions of people that are feeling fine about things, and will renew their memberships, or see them as a charitable donation.

Kelly Molson: Steve, I want to ask you a little bit about pre booking, because I mean we've talked about this for years now, pre booking. Obviously, it was kind of forced upon attractions during the pandemic, when they were allowed to open. I still don't know why anyone wouldn't pre book in advance, but then I am an organised planner. I need to know that I've got my ticket and I'm going to get in. I'm not going to have a wasted journey. And obviously, from an operational side, aspect from attractions, it's a brilliant thing to be able to do.

Kelly Molson: What's the kind of sentiment now from general public? Are they still happy with it? Are they starting to want to go back to the old days, where things were just a little bit more flexible and bit more spontaneous?

Steve Mills: Yeah. Well, I think almost, it's switching that around a little bit. I mean, I think obviously COVID was this fantastic opportunity to almost change the culture of the public to one where, as you said, it's why wouldn't you pre book an attraction in the same way that you would pre book lots of other things in society, like going to the theatre or going to a restaurant or whatever? Certainly, paid attractions. There was a really good opportunity to change the culture. And so I think the main point for me is that attractions need to be proactive in encouraging that behaviour.

Steve Mills: It's not something that will naturally come to the public, and public sentiment won't change unless attractions are proactive in changing it. Why would it, really? I think it's incumbent upon attractions to really create that appetite for pre booking. And I think to an extent, we're beginning to get there. But I think there's a lot more to be done in terms of what nudges can we put to the public to encourage to pre book? I think things like online discounts that are notable, or switching it around premiums to walk-ups, depending on which way you want to look at it, should be used more than they probably are at the moment.

Steve Mills: And things like dynamic pricing for advanced booking, for example. Again, I know you talked to Simon Addison about dynamic pricing last week. But the more that that can be used, in particular for things like advanced booking, I think just will encourage pre booking. And then gradually over a period of time, it then gets ingrained into the people's psyche, "I'm going to an attraction, therefore I will pre book."

Steve Mills: I think it's just one of those that I think the industry as a whole almost needs to come together and say, "Right, we're going to push pre booking as much as we possibly can because we need to change the way that society thinks about booking attractions." Easy for me to sit here and say that, and much more difficult to do. But I think that's what needs to be done because yeah, as we've seen, there's huge benefits in terms of creating that relationship with anybody as soon as you grab their email address. And that investment or the discounts you offer may well pay dividends in years to come because you've managed to keep that relationship going, which means you get more repeat visits, you get more top of mind so you get more recommendation being spread around, et cetera. I think it's a worthwhile investment.

Kelly Molson: Brilliant, yeah. Good advice. I agree with every, single word you have said, Steve. Thanks for backing up everything that I put online about it as well.

Steve Mills: It's all right. And to be honest, it helped me as well on my visitor surveys. I now try and make sure that they are online, post visit surveys, which tend to help the more pre bookers people have got. It makes that research a lot more cost effective, shall we say, as well.

Kelly Molson: Helping us all round, Steve. That's what I like. Sector collaboration and all that. Right, Steve, thank you for sharing your insights today. It's really appreciated, and I know that this will help a lot of people that are feeling a little bit anxious about what's going on and just not really sure how to approach things. Thank you very much.

Kelly Molson: I always ask our guests to recommend a book that they love or something that has helped shape their career in some way. What have you got for us today?

Steve Mills: Okay. I've read this book called Silt Road, silt road rather than silk road, by a guy called Charles Rangeley-Wilson or Rangeley-Wilson. Not quite sure, to be honest. And he's quite niche based, so be prepared. It tells the social history of High Wycombe, which is where I live, through the lens of the River Wye, which sort of runs through it, although most of it has been culverted and put under a shopping centre and a flyover, these days. Yeah, it tells that story through the lens of a river. It tells a story about things like the mills on the river, the history of Wycombe as a furniture and chair making town, which led to me actually being ... I'm now Chair of the Wycombe Chair Museum, which is rather ironic.

Kelly Molson: That's niche as well, isn't it? I love it.

Steve Mills: It is. It's incredibly niche. It's incredibly niche. And it also tells the story of things like how trout became ... Trout are a thing in New Zealand, apparently, and they are a thing in New Zealand because they were taken from the River Wye and transported over thousands of miles to New Zealand many years ago.

Steve Mills: But the reason why I mention it is because I'm not originally from Wycombe. I've lived here for about 15 years. But it really helped me form this identity with the town, because Wycombe is a few miles outside London. It's very commuter-able, which means that actually, there's not many people live in Wycombe who are originally from Wycombe. I'm a big believer in getting pride in your local area so you look after it better and make you want to contribute to the community.

Steve Mills: Books like this help with that because it has really helped me to understand Wycombe in more detail, understand the social history, and feel more proud of the place I live.

Kelly Molson: Steve, I love that.

Steve Mills: It's not really a recommendation to read that specific book. It's more of a kind of a plea to go and find out a bit more about your local area, read about the social history, so that you feel more proud about the places you live in.

Kelly Molson: And more connected to it as well.

Steve Mills: Completely, yeah, yeah, yeah. Pride and connection.

Kelly Molson: Steve, I think that's lovely. It's amazing, the stuff that you can learn on this podcast. Who knew? Who knew? Who knew that Wycombe ... I had no idea that it was a big chair and furniture manufacturing place, and that you had got a Chair Museum as well.

Steve Mills: We do, yes. It's mentioned in Gavin and Stacey as well.

Kelly Molson: Is it?

Steve Mills: Yeah, there you go.

Kelly Molson: Well, I mean I'm an Essex girl, so that fits for me too.

Steve Mills: Well, James Corden is from High Wycombe, so that's why it's mentioned in there.

Kelly Molson: Got you. Right, okay. Well, look, listeners, if you want to win Steve's book, and why wouldn't you? If you go over to our Twitter account and you retweet this episode announcement with the word, "I Want Steve's Book", then we'll get you a copy of that book. We'll get you a copy of it, and you could be in with a chance of winning it, and then you can find out about High Wycombe as well. Thank you, Steve. It has been an education.

Steve Mills: Absolute pleasure.

Kelly Molson:  Thanks for listening to Skip The Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned. 

Skip the queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website, rubbercheese.com/podcast.

Download The Visitor Attractions Website Survey Report - https://www.merac.co.uk/download-the-visitor-attractions-survey

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Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is  Kelly Molson, MD of Rubber Cheese.

Download our free ebook The Ultimate Guide to Doubling Your Visitor Numbers

If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website rubbercheese.com/podcast.

If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this podcast

Competition ends January 31st 2023. The winner will be contacted via Twitter.

Show references:

https://www.romanbaths.co.uk/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/simonaddison/

Simon is the Business Manager, Roman Baths and Pump Room, Bath, and heads the finance and business planning functions at the Roman Baths. He is responsible for business analysis, pricing strategy and leads the benchmarking work.

Simon started his career in the financial services industry, where he qualified as a chartered management accountant with the Bank of New York. He moved to the National Trust in 2012, where he held roles in the finance team. Latterly he was responsible for the Trust’s finances in Somerset, Dorset and Wiltshire. Simon joined the senior leadership team at the Roman Baths in 2017.

Simon joined the Board of the Association of Leading Visitor Attractions in May 2022.

Transcriptions:

Kelly Molson:  Welcome to Skip The Queue, a podcast for people working in or working with visitor attractions. I'm your host Kelly Molson. Each episode, I speak with industry experts from the attractions world. In today's episode, I speak with Simon Addison, Heritage Business Manager at the Roman Baths.

We talk all things pricing, and the phenomenal impact that introducing variable pricing has had at the Baths. 

If you like what you hear, subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip The Queue. 

Kelly Molson: Simon, welcome to the podcast. It's lovely to see you today.

Simon Addison:  Thanks for having me. I'm excited. I'm nervous about the icebreakers though.

Kelly Molson:  Everyone always is. You shouldn't be. What is your favourite season? And why?

Simon Addison:  I think autumn. Yeah, the colours on the trees, kick through the leaves with the kids. You can go on those walks, you get the crisp mornings. We're starting to get them at the moment. But you still get sort of a bit of warmth at the end of the day in the afternoon. You can still sit outside on a good day. Yep, definitely autumn.

Kelly Molson:  Totally agree. You are my people. Simon. Autumn woolly hats. 

Simon Addison:  Yeah.

Kelly Molson:  Cold but bright. 

Simon Addison:  Yes. 

Kelly Molson:  Frisbee, dog walks and Halloween. 

Simon Addison:  Not so much of a Halloween person but it could be an unpopular opinion territory here. But yeah.

Kelly Molson:  All right. Well, save that. Okay. Have you ever been told off for touching something in a museum?

Simon Addison:  Yeah, I have. I think the last time was at Lanhydrock. Which is a National Trust place down in Cornwall. We were in the kitchen. They had some plastic fake food on the table and I got told off for touching the plastic fake food.

Kelly Molson:  Did you just touch it? Oh, you're trying to juggle with it.

Simon Addison:  I was just touching it, Kelly.

Kelly Molson:  Okay, don't touch plastic fruit kids. Right. What is something you're really good at? And is a little bit obscure. I'll give you an example of one of mine. I'm really good at; if I hear a song. Or like songs. I can tell you what film they've been in.

Simon Addison:  That is a good question. I'm pretty good at motorways around the UK. Where you want to go. I could probably tell you roughly what motorways would be involved in that journey. Don't ask me now though.

Kelly Molson:  And I'm really dreadful as well. That's exactly why that really made me laugh. It made you sound like an absolute nerd. Sorry, Simon.

Simon Addison:  You asked an accountant on your podcast, Kelly.

Kelly Molson:  That's very true. It's very true. I should have been more prepared for the nerd answers. Sorry. All right. So good at motorway so you could have been like London cabbie. You'd have been good at the knowledge.

Simon Addison:  Yeah, I reckon that's a different level of knowledge, though. Isn't it? Just those trunk roads around the UK? It's quite a niche building is that detailed. I think we're just talking about my major routes.

Kelly Molson:  We would need to find like a really niched pub quiz for our talents wouldn't we? One that covers music from films and routes around the UK using motorways only.

Simon Addison:  Yeah, pretty tough.

Kelly Molson:  Anyone knows a pub quiz team that needs those skills on them? Hit us up. Right. What is your unpopular opinion?

Simon Addison:  Well, I was gonna go with something about Crocs as being an abomination of a choice of footwear. But I feel like that might have come up before. So my unpopular opinion is that golf is the greatest amateur sport to play.

Kelly Molson:  Okay, you are a clean golfer, I take it. 

Simon Addison:  I am a keen golfer. But I think more than that, like the handicap system, so you get a handicap if you're a golfer tells you how good you are. And that means that golfers of different abilities can play competitively against each other on a level playing field, I could go out and play against a professional and have a competitive match. I don't think there are many other sports that you could do that in. 

And I think for me, that meant that, you know, when I started playing golf in my early 20s, I used to play quite a bit with my granddad, who was quite a lot older than me. And once I was working, I still used to play with him a few times a year. Although I was a better golfer than him on paper, I reckon I only beat him once. Every time I turned up to play with him. I wanted to show how good I was and played like a muppet. 

But I don't think there are many sports that an eight year old could be a 25 year old app. And if you want to spend silly amounts of money, you can go and play courses where professionals play and you can see how much better they are than you and you can really measure your ability against what a professional sort of standard is. 

My seven year old son's just getting into golf at the moment. And so this summer, walking around the golf course with him has been sort of the highlight of my summer. And now he's got his handicap. He's seven and he'll probably beat me in a couple of years. And again, I don't think you know, I don't think there are many sports where seven or eight year old could turn up and be a fully grown adult. So for me, that's why golf is the best amateur sport. 

Kelly Molson:  Yeah, I'd never thought about it like that at all. I think that's brilliant. My husband is a keen golfer and I am a golf widow, although not on the weekends, because he's a wedding photographer anyway, so the weekend so he does fit it. He is quite kind and fits it around times when he should be working when he's not working. But yeah, I hadn't ever thought about that. So it kind of puts you on a really good, I guess you get to learn from people that are really experienced as well because you can actually play against them. Whereas you would never get that opportunity at all, do you?

Simon Addison:  Exactly. And you can go out and play with someone who's way better than you and see how they play and it can improve your game. Yeah. And my wife is also a golf widow. I reckon she's playing the long game. I think she's seeing everything. If my son plays as well, then, in years to come, she'll get those Saturdays back. You know, maybe if the other son also takes up golf. Maybe it's just a long game. But right now she's definitely a golf widow.

Kelly Molson:  She knows she's plotting because I'm doing exactly the same. I pluck up the hours that he plays golf, and I work out how many hours I can spend doing things that I really want to it's just I haven't found a hobby. That takes me four hours. Yeah, that's what I need.

Simon Addison:  Yeah, there is that? Yeah, it's yeah, it was the might be, in my opinion, the greatest sport for an amateur to play. It isn't a short sport, and it isn't a cheap sport.

Kelly Molson:  It is not. That's a great opinion, though. Let's see what our listeners think. Thank you. Okay, Simon, as you mentioned earlier, you are an accountant. I don't think we've had an accountant on the podcast before but you're not really a traditional accountant, are you? So tell us a little bit about your role.

Simon Addison:  So at the moment, I work at the Roman Baths in Bath, for Bath and North East Somerset Council. So we're a council owned and run visitor attraction. As well as the ruin bars, we operate the Fashion Museum and the Victoria Art Gallery in Bath, and also the record office in the city. 

My role is Business Manager, I'm responsible for all aspects of sort of finance and business planning, benchmarking and trend analysis, I sort of try not to take offense at my profession, when people say you're not a traditional accounting, but I think it means that I try and look a little bit further than just what the numbers are telling you. I think the accounts are only ever a symptom of what else is going on in the operation. So if all you do is look at the accounts each month, you're probably not going to understand what's driving those numbers. So I think, you know, maybe it's about trying to sort of relate all of that performance data to operational outcomes and objectives.

Kelly Molson:  Yeah, I think because we've spoken in the past, I always very much saw your role. Well, the conversations that we've had about your role, and will have always been that you've been on the side of the operations as well. So you, you know, you do have that kind of contact with the visitors. And you have that you kind of broach that in between bit between the accountant and the ops department. If that makes sense. That's how it came across to me anyway.

Simon Addison:  Yeah, I think that's fair. I think before I came to the Baths, I was at the National Trust my job title there was Finance Business Partner. And I think that really was, that was much more. Well, my role now is similar, but it's about working with operational staff and helping them to achieve their objectives. And I think people can see finance can see budgets, as, you know, an intimidating subject. And actually, really, their tool to achieve your objectives. 

And I think, you know, particularly in an organisation like the National Trust, you join the National Trust as a gardener or arranger or conservator, because you're passionate about those things, if you're good at them, you get given a budget. And I think, then all of a sudden, you're responsible for not just, your garden, but also how much you spend looking after it. And I think sitting down with those people who may be wanting to spend more money or needed new equipment, and sort of demystifying the accounts, how they worked. 

That's what I find really rewarding, churning out a set of accounts or a budget in and of itself, isn't a particularly rewarding process. It's about, sitting down with someone who didn't think they could achieve X or Y that year and making them realise that actually, it's it is achievable if they manage their money slightly differently. I think that's a really rewarding place to be.

Kelly Molson:  Yeah, absolutely. And that's that kind of alludes to some of the stuff that we can talk about today, because you've been through a really interesting pricing journey at the Baths. And I want you to talk us through what you've done. And then we can talk about some of the impacts that's actually had because it's incredibly impressive. And I think people listening will be really, really intrigued by this. So variable pricing. Tell us why you took that direction in the first place. How did this come to happen?

Simon Addison:  Sure. I joined the Baths in autumn 2017. So we've just come out of the summer over the summer at the Baths we open 13 hours a day. So open the doors at nine o'clock in the morning through to 10 o'clock at night. We've got the gas flares going Torchlight experience. It's a fantastic time, but it takes its toll on staff opening for that length of time, and we just had our busiest ever summer. 

So in the Spring, in early summer of 2017, there were some terror attacks in London and in Manchester. And one of the consequences of that is that we saw an almost immediate spike in visitors to Bath I think people perceive Bath as being a relatively safe city, you can drive pretty much into the centre of it. And people who get to their own bus without needing to engage in public transport and, and so almost overnight, you could see that sort of spike in visitors. And frankly, we weren't prepared for it. 

So the staff had come out of a summer where we'd seen huge numbers of visitors that we perhaps weren't ready for. But actually, over the course of the previous three or four years, visitor numbers have been growing steadily. And we were doing nothing to really manage those numbers or influence when people came. So we could start the year telling you what our busiest day of the year was going to be. And all we did was brace ourselves.

So coming out of that sort of 2017 year, I was new in post, we also had a new commercial manager, new in post, we started to think about what we could do differently. And I went to an Alpha Finance Directors meeting, where Baker Richards, the consultants did a presentation on pricing strategy. And Debbie Rich's talked about the fact that if all you do is increase your price by inflation every year, you haven't got a pricing strategy. And we weren't even doing that we were just putting 50 P on it, not linking it to inflation. 

And all we were doing was making a bit more money each year. But we weren't really shaping anything to do with our visitor behaviour. All of the visitors arrived in concentration in the summer, as you would expect. But also within an individual day, we would have peaks at 11 o'clock and two o'clock, which will be familiar to lots of people who work in attractions. And again, we didn't try and do anything to smooth those visitors through the day, obviously, the experience suffered at our busiest times. And also, because we're not a particularly big site, anyone that's been will know that, you know, there are quite a lot of enclosed spaces, and visitors get very close to the Roman monument. 

And if you've packing in six or seven thousand people in a day, or with rucksacks on or turning round all the time, there's a sort of a conservation impact of those, that number of people coming through the monument. And if they're knocking off bits of Roman stone, you can't really just stick it back on.

Kelly Molson:  Not plastic fruit, is it, Simon?

Simon Addison:  It's not plastic fruit. No, it's not. And so we were, yes, we were making money, but our visitor experience scores were suffering. And also our conservation objectives were not being delivered by having that concentration of people through the year. So after that, we sort of engaged Baker Richards or we went through a tender process, and ended up appointing Baker Richards to help us with a pricing strategy.

Kelly Molson:  So what did that look like in terms of your team? Because I'd love to know who you got involved in that process. Because I think sometimes things can happen back office, that there's an agreement that this is what we're going to do, but we don't necessarily get all of the right members of the team involved from the start. So what did that look like for you?

Simon Addison:  For us, it looked like a multidisciplinary team. So we have people from across the business involved in that we set up a Project Steering Group, and we had members of staff from the on that group, I thought was particularly important to get the staff involved early, because ultimately, they're the people that are going to sell the ticket to the customer. So if a customer walks up and the member of staff, the visitor experience host that greets them doesn't feel the tickets worth the selling price, then that will come across in the welcome. And equally, if they do you feel it's worth the price, they understand the reason that we've implemented this strategy and the journey that we're going on, then they can sell it with confidence, and they can articulate it. And if someone turns around and says is expensive, they're ready to defend that price.

So we had V involved from the start, it was also really important to get senior leadership buy in from across the business. So making sure that the curatorial staff understood that we were trying to manage down the numbers, or not done the numbers overall, but manage the numbers of peak times and smooth the visitors throughout the year for a specific conservation objective was really important, because I think, you know, in visitor attractions, usually, there's a tension between the conservation objectives and the provision of access to that, whether it's a museum, whether it's a historic garden or house. 

The more people you let through a space, the more impact it has from a conservation objective. So holding those two things, intention, conservation and access are usually when, in my experience, we deliver best as a business, meeting the needs both of our visitors, but also the collections and buildings that we're caring for. So making sure that everyone was signed up for the objectives at the start was really important. And then obviously, we had marketing involved, because again, they need to be able to be confident that we can sell these prices that we're not gonna get a load of feedback that was too expensive. And sort of the commercial professionals that you'd expect as well.

Kelly Molson:  So what did it look like? When you started to go through this process? How did you work out what that pricing was going to be?

Simon Addison:  When we engaged Baker Richards, the first sort of phase of the project was a discovery phase. So we gave them access to lots of historic data. So they took our ticketing data, they could look at how many people we had day by day, week by week, and they went back over five years, they also took the retail sales data so that, you know, because one of the things we didn't want to do was to make more money Front of House as people walked in, and then compromise our retail spend. 

So they looked at the range of data that we had available. And one of the features of the bars that they were able to identify is that we were quite predictable. As a site, our visitor numbers were fairly predictable; month by month and week by week. And what that meant is they could be quite confident about the level of demand, we were seeing whether that was from domestic or international visitors, and that gave them more confidence in the recommendations they were making. Because we had a regular repeatable pattern of visitation, they were then able to stay with confidence, this model shouldn't impact on that, if we were a less regular site was prone to more I don't know whether or seasonal fluctuations, then it might have been more difficult to have those that level of confidence. 

So we sort of the initial phase we went through was that discovery phase, they took the data, they analysed it. And we also gave them a really clear brief, we didn't just want to make more money. We felt really strongly that actually as a heritage site, we didn't want to just become a luxury product that was only available to middle classes. So we gave them a brief that we wanted some of our prices to reduce. 

And we wanted to not price up every school holiday, you know, what you might call the Centre Park pricing model where you can, you can sort of identify when the school holidays are by the fact that price triples. So we gave them a really clear brief. And they went through that data discovery phase initially, and came back to us halfway through the project and sort of presented back the data analysis that they'd done and said, "This is our picture of your business, does it chime with your own understanding?" 

And for me, that was one of the biggest, you know, as well as getting a pricing strategy out of it, having some consultants look at your business, and effectively validate all the analysis that you do yourself was really helpful. Reassuringly, for us, they didn't tell us anything we didn't know. But it is a validation of the quality of the performance, management and the business analysts that I have working in my team that, you know, they're producing EMI, that that was consistent and telling a consistent story with what Baker Richards did.

Kelly Molson:  And so what decisions did you come to about the pricing? And how does it work now, and because I want to talk about how it works then but also, this was pre pandemic, right? So then you had the pandemic to deal with as well. So what did you put in place?

Simon Addison:  So to start with, we ended up with a relatively simple pricing structure. We had three price points during the year, we had that sort of summer, peak price period, if you like, we had the shoulder months, so spring and autumn, and then we had the off peak period through the winter. And within that, weekdays were always cheaper than weekends. 

Every time a visitor looked at our website, there was always a choice to be made about what price they wanted to pay. And when we were first speaking to Baker Richards, they gave this great example; it was one of the kids theatre shows it may have been Peppa Pig World or something. And parents were taking their kids to see Peppa Pig at the theatre. And there was a balloon on sale and was four pounds for this balloon. And they were getting loads of complaints about people not wanting to spend four pounds on a balloon. 

Next year, they sold two balloons, they sold one balloon for four pounds, they sold one balloon for eight pounds. Not only did they get no complaints about the balloon, for four pounds, they sold a load of eight pound balloons, because all of a sudden, people go into the theatre, we're presented with a choice. They could either buy no balloon, but if they did want to buy a balloon, they could choose to buy a four pound balloon or they could choose to buy an eight pound balloon. And so it's then been their choice as to the price they've paid. 

And so for us with visitors, they're looking at the website, there's always a choice that they can make. So when they choose to come on a Saturday, they know that they could have chosen to come on a Friday and it would have been cheaper, but the Saturday met their needs. So the price they've paid is a choice they've made based on the needs they've got. And so that was introducing that element of choice was a really important feature of the pricing structure.

Kelly Molson:  Yes, you're empowering them to make the decision about it, not forcing them into a decision.

Simon Addison:  Absolutely. And I think the other thing we did in that first iteration of the pricing strategy was introduced an online discount because we knew lots of people looked at our website before they came, but very few people committed to purchase on the website. Most people came in and joined the queue. And that meant that we couldn't manage their arrival time because they just joined the queue and they'd get in when they got in. 

So we were seeing sort of five or 7% pre booking before the pandemic, and before we introduced this strategy, we introduced the strategy we put in a 10% online discount. And overnight, we saw a doubling in the number of people that were pre booking. So for us, that was really helpful in terms of predicting their arrival time, but for our marketing team as well, all of a sudden, we had the postcode of where these people were coming from is valuable data that we weren't getting beforehand. 

Pre booking has become slightly more important over the last couple of years. And we no longer have that discount for online because it's been a necessity. So but that was one of the features of that first iteration of the strategy.

Kelly Molson:  Amazing. And how did your visitors engage with it? What was the feedback when you launched it?

Simon Addison:  We didn't get a lot of direct feedback about the fact that we had a new pricing strategy, because the Baths is, you know, one of our features is that we're a tickbox destination. So we're 80% first time visitors. So in implementing a new strategy, we didn't have to concern ourselves too much with the person that said, "Oh, you were cheaper last year, or you've done something different to last year", because those people by and large, don't come year after year. 

Most people who've been before came on a school trip as I came 20 years ago, it's changed a bit. And so it's definitely a different model, we operate to some other attractions. But what we did see, we saw some complaints, but we saw complaints before the strategy came in. So we saw no more complaints on price than we did beforehand. And we saw many fewer complaints about crowding. 

And our value for money score increased, and has continued to increase each year with since we increased our prices. 

Kelly Molson:  That's brilliant.

Simon Addison:  And I think it comes back to that choice element. So your visitors are standing there, and they've made a choice to pay that money. And so they didn't feel like they wanted to come to the Baths, and they had to pay the price. They wanted to come to the Baths, and they were able to choose which price met their needs and the day that they wanted to come and I think that's translated through to those scores.

Kelly Molson:  Absolutely. I'm definitely never gonna pay a pound for a balloon. No, I'm just putting that out there. It's not happening.

Simon Addison:  Me, I wouldn't pay four pounds either. 

Kelly Molson:  Who needs a balloon? You're just gonna let it go.

Simon Addison:  And then you gotta pop it. And it's gonna be a source of disappointment. 

Kelly Molson:  Wow, in the wrong business. Right. This was pre pandemic. So this was 2017, you started this process 2017? 

Simon Addison:  Yeah, yeah. 2017, I joined, we did the sort of discovery and design the strategy 2018, implemented in 2019. And we had our best ever year in terms of visitor numbers in 2019. But all of the growth came outside of the June, July and August period. So our growth came in April and May and September and October. So from that sort of objective of smoothing out the visitors through the year, we achieved that by pushing people out into the shoulder months. 

And also, we didn't have one day over 7000 visitors. In fact, we didn't have one day over six and a half 1000 visitors. Now, that's still a lot of people through quite a small space. But we certainly drove out those peaks that we were seeing before we implemented the strategy. And as importantly, we made 2.3 million pounds extra revenue in the first year of the strategy. And Baker Rich's modelling suggested that we'd make 2.4 million. So they were really incredibly accurate terms of the modelling that they'd done. And the returns that were possible through this strategy. And it delivered so accurately to that really impressive bit of work.

Kelly Molson:  I mean, that is a phenomenal impact, isn't it? The difference that has made is just so impressive. But that was 2019. What has happened since COVID?

Simon Addison:  So I think, because we had multiple price points through the year before COVID, it was much easier for us to reopen with a model that was reactive. I think if we'd only ever had a fixed price point, changing the price would have been a really big thing for us. Whereas we changed our price twice a week. And so being able to sort of reopen in the summer of 2020. With our plan summer pricing, we came to the end of August. And we were still seeing really strong demand against a much reduced capacity. 

And so we kept the prices at our peak price through September and October. And because we already had those price points built into our pricing structure, it was really easy for us to just take that decision to continue with the higher prices and maximise the revenue from the visitors that were coming through. And I'd say that arguably the 300,000 pounds of additional revenue we made from the pricing structure in 2020 was more useful than the 2.3 million that we made the year before because you know there was revenue was so scarce at that point. 

And so, being more reactive was really important. Obviously, we ditched the online discount because online booking became a mandatory feature of going anywhere. So you don't need to discount something that visitors had to do. And I think also it just having gone through a year where we charged more, we had the confidence that visitors were prepared to pay for that. 

And so coming out of COVID, in late 2020, we did a phase two piece of work with Baker Richards, looking at what happened in 2019. But also what was happening in our sort of COVID reopening. And what that showed is that even though we'd increase the prices quite significantly through the summer, in 2019, it had a negligible impact on the demand. So that gave us the confidence to be even punchier in that sort of that June, July and August period, with our peak pricing, and we don't articulate it this way on our website. But effectively, we introduced a super peak price going into 2021. 

So having never charged more than 17 pounds in 2018, this summer, we've charged 27.50. Not for a long period of the year, it's only at the weekends. And it's only during June, July and August. So it's only 15 days a year or something. But having that headline price, I think Dom from Mary Rose talked about decoy pricing when he was on, it's almost that sort of if you've got that high headline price, then everything else feels comparatively good value, as you as you trade down from that. 

So people are saying, "Well, you know, let's not go on Saturday, we'll go on Wednesday, because it's three pounds cheaper or whatever", or if you're buying a family ticket even more. So I think using that sort of that headline price as a decoy having real confidence about the quality of your product. So yes, it's worth it, because people are prepared to pay for it. 

But also, if you look at what else people are prepared to spend 27 pounds on, people have spent 27 pounds on lots of different things. So why is the Roman Baths or why is the Tower of London or Stonehenge? Yeah, they're all equally valid cause on people's leisure spend. And we should be confident about the quality of product that we we give to people.

Kelly Molson:  You mentioned earlier about retail spent, and this not having an effect on it. What was the effect on retail spend, once you transition to the variable pricing?

Simon Addison:  There was no impact at all. So we didn't see an increase in retail spend pre pandemic, we just saw no impact at all. For anyone who's been to the Baths, we've got a really small shop, we're confined by being in the centre of Bath, we'd love to be able to expand our shop. But when we do, our benchmarking, we're consistently performing in the top two or three sites for sales per square metre. So we just know that we can't fit enough people in that shop for the number of people that come through the site. 

And the work that Baker Richards did showed the display visitor numbers increasing year on year, the number of transactions that were taking place to the shop hadn't been keeping pace, basically our busiest times the shop had reached saturation point. So it may be that some people decided not to go into the shop because they'd paid more to come in. But for anyone that decided that there was someone who has bypassed the shop before, because, you know, they just looked in when Bath was too busy. 

So for anyone who was not going into the shop, there were other customers who were prepared to go in. And since COVID, our retail spend has been through the roof. And you our spend per visitor this year is 50 pence a visitor higher than it was pre COVID. And I can't tell you why, Kelly. 

Kelly Molson:  I was gonna ask, why?

Simon Addison:  Obviously, high quality ranges and my retail colleagues would not forgive me if I said it was anything other than the quality of product in there. But I think certainly when we first reopened from COVID people were just glad to be out. There was a sense, particularly if you've had a lot done experience like mine with small children, you were just glad to be anywhere other than your own house. 

And our top selling lines before COVID were toiletries because we bought the bars, spa and well being but people didn't want to buy toiletries, because you know, in 2020, no one's picking up anything and sniffing it. That felt like quite a risky thing to do. But we saw gin and that was a genius move. So we sold gin and children's books. And I think, you know, most people's lockdown experiences was similar to mine, not enough gin and not enough children's books. 

So they came to the Roman Baths and they bought both of those things in spades. But you know, as toiletries have come back through that they're picking up in terms of sales, but people spending a lot of money, buying high priced jewellery product. I wish I could tell you why. You should have asked Callum when he was on.

Kelly Molson:  Yeah, yeah, I should. Well, I'll post the question to him and see if he knows. Yeah, it's interesting. I wonder if it's that. I mean, I was very conscious of visiting attractions and spending money in the retail stores because of the fact that they'd been shut. I wanted to spend more money. I wanted to do my bit because I wanted those places to stay open. So I wonder if there's still a residue of that happening when people are visiting?

Simon Addison:  I think in 2020, we would definitely put it down to that and you could almost see it as well. And there was a sense that people had saved money. Whether that was on commuting costs or childcare bills or whatever, there was a sense that people would save money during the lockdowns and therefore they had more disposable income. 

But we're coming up with the cost of living pressures. We're coming into winter with massive uncertainty. And every month, I look at those returning members, and I'm waiting for that spend per visitor to drop, and it hasn't done yet. So I think it's more than just a sort of an altruistic desire to support the attractions. Or maybe it's about people choosing to prioritise this activity of their spend over, I don't know Netflix subscriptions or something. So, yeah, I can't answer that question. But we're glad to see it.

Kelly Molson:  I'll ask Callum. I'll ask Callum Lumsden of Lumsden Design and see if he can tell us and shed some light on it. All right. So what I'd really like to know, if you could give me your top tips for people that are thinking about going through this process, what would they be if anyone that's listening? Now that's thinking this is a genius thing to do, I would like to add 2.3 million to my revenue, please.

Simon Addison:  I think the first thing is being really clear on your objectives. So for us, it wasn't just about making more money, we'd have ended up with a pricing strategy that looked different if we wanted to just make more money. So the ability to deliver something for visitor experience objectives and conservation objectives was really important, and really featured heavily in the brief that we gave to Baker Richards. So starting out with that clarity of purpose, I think would be my first tip. 

I'd also say if I know budgets are tight at the moment, but if you can pay for the analysis, then firstly, it's such a helpful validation of your own business analysis that you're doing yourselves. But when you need to sell this inwardly, so we're part of the council, we needed to sell this strategy and inwardly to local politicians and the council leadership. But if you're in a more sort of typical attraction, you're going to need to sell this to your trustees. And having that sort of analysis as a validation of your strategy. And your approach will hopefully give them the confidence that increasing prices by a significant percentage is not a ridiculous thing to do, certainly involving your front of house teams. 

And that's not linked to pricing strategy that's just linked to anything you do in your attraction, your Front of House Team are the people that are going to hear from the visitors what they think about it, they're the person who has got to explain your own strategic direction to the visitors when they're in front of them. But particularly when it comes to pricing, I think making sure that they're involved, they've got a chance to ask questions. And also that you're giving them that feedback as well. So that sort of regular communication, once you've implemented it, tell them whether what you're seeing is what you expected to see. 

Because otherwise, if there's a void in that communication, they'll fill it with their own analysis, or we didn't seem very busy last Saturday, and it might not have been busy last Saturday, because it was pouring with rain, as opposed to your pricing strategy is not working. So making sure that you're having that regular dialogue with those teams on an ongoing basis. 

And I think the final thing is holding your nerve. And that, you know, when we'd never charged more than 17 pounds before that first Saturday, when our prices were 22 pounds, there's a level of nervousness that is associated with that. And so holding the nerve when price setting, we could do a whole separate podcast on communicating with the travel trade. But it's safe to say, that was probably the most challenging aspect of the project in terms of moving the travel trade on to a variable pricing model when they have a, you know, they sell in advance, they sell through third parties. And that was a really difficult set of conversations. But we held our nerve. 

And despite being told that they wouldn't be able to work with us, they wouldn't be able to bring us the volume. 2019, they bought us more people and they never bought us before. So so there is a bit about holding nerve. And I think post implementation, don't be tempted to tinker too much. Because otherwise you won't know if the strategy didn't work or whether you fiddled with it, and then it didn't work. So I think if you change too many things at once this is the nerd in me, you change too many things at once, you can't tell what's made the difference. 

So trying to only change one thing, will tell you whether that one thing works or not. Obviously, go through a pandemic, you change everything all at once. And it's very difficult. But generally speaking, if you can sort of make change in a stage where you can measure the impact of an intervention, whereas if you change four or five things at once, you don't know what's caused it, cause the effect that you're seeing. So those would be my top tips. I think Kelly.

Kelly Molson:  Absolutely excellent advice. Simon, I know that you are an ALVA member, I know that you're really keen to speak with other attractions. I know that you're very well obviously you've come on the podcast to share your insight and I know you're very keen to do that. So I'm sure if anyone does have questions around the OTA challenge or variable pricing, I'm sure that you'd be super happy to talk to people.

Simon Addison:  Yeah, always happy to.

Kelly Molson:  We will pop all of Simon's details in terms of, we will put his LinkedIn profile and a link to the Roman Baths in the show notes. So if you do want to reach out to him and ask him any questions, please feel free. Simon, a book that you would recommend to our listeners something that you love or something that shaped your career. What do you have for us today?

Simon Addison:  This was a difficult question. I tried really hard to think of a workbook that had changed my career. And I really could I've read workbooks, but there's not one that I go back to time and time again. So, so I've picked fiction books, I've picked 1000 Splendid Suns, which is a novel by Khaled Hosseini, which is set in Afghanistan. And I don't think many people are going to choose this book after I describe it. It's not an uplifting read, it's a really challenging read. 

The central characters are women living in Afghanistan, forced into marriage during a time when the Taliban influence was growing. But I think I read at a time when Afghanistan was in the news a lot. And we were probably presented with a relatively one dimensional interpretation of Afghanistan, in the way that the news coverage came through. And so it offered me an insight into sort of, I guess, Life beyond the headlines. And despite the fact that it was a really harrowing read at times, there was a sense of hope that came through even the most difficult situations. 

And I think that really stayed with me. And as somebody who's probably we're very interested in sort of world affairs and politics, I think, it really challenged me to make sure that you sort of read around the topic. If you before coming up with a really definite position or opinion on a world situation, the need to sort of read around something. And I know, this wasn't a it wasn't a fact book. It was a fiction book. But I think it really changed my perspective on Afghanistan. So I don't think many people want to read it. But if you want a really harrowing read, but you know, that sense of hope and really difficult times, it is a great book.

Kelly Molson:  Thank you. Well, thank you for sharing. I'm sure people will want that. And if you do, if you go over to our Twitter account, @skip_the_queue, and you retweet this podcast announcement with the words "I want Simon's book", you could be in with a chance of winning it. 

Simon, thank you. It's been lovely to chat to you. I always enjoy chatting to you. Even though I called you a nerd earlier. I apologise about that. 

Simon Addison:  I forgive you, Kelly.

Kelly Molson:  If you do have a little pop quiz that you'd like me and Simon to join that you think would be useful for, please do let us know. On that note, I think we'll end the podcast there. Thanks, Simon. It's been fun.

Simon Addison: Thanks, Kelly.

Kelly Molson:  Thanks for listening to Skip The Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned. 

Skip the queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website, rubbercheese.com/podcast.

Download The Visitor Attractions Website Survey Report - https://www.merac.co.uk/download-the-visitor-attractions-survey

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Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is  Kelly Molson, MD of Rubber Cheese.

Download our free ebook The Ultimate Guide to Doubling Your Visitor Numbers

If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website rubbercheese.com/podcast.

If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this podcast

Competition ends January 31st 2023. The winner will be contacted via Twitter.

Show references:

https://www.katapult.co.uk/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/mrrobbiejones/

https://www.katapult.co.uk/creating-unique-visitor-destinations-in-a-crowded-market/

Robbie is Insights Analyst Lead at Katapult. He works on providing data-driven audience and market trends, as well as operational insights, to assist the design team in creating immersive, commercially-successful experiences. Robbie has over 10 years' experience in the leisure and tourism industry and has worked with iconic brands, theme parks, family entertainment centres, museums and visitor attractions around the world. He is a dedicated Board Member of his local art and cinema centre, Derby QUAD.

Katapult designs themed attractions and experiences that amaze and engage visitors globally. Our work is enjoyed by 50 million visitors, at 81 attractions, in 18 different countries, every year. As well as increasing guest experience, we thrive on helping you generate more income, more fans and bring the vision for your attraction to life. Legoland, Sea Life, Twycross Zoo, Alton Towers.

Transcriptions:

Kelly Molson: Welcome to Skip the Queue, a podcast for people working in or working with visitor attractions. I'm your host, Kelly Molson. Each episode I speak with industry experts from the attractions world.

In today's episode, I speak with Robbie Jones, Insights Analyst Lead at Katapult. We discuss how to create a unique visitor attraction, what you need to know before you start, and what the leisure and attractions market is looking like post-COVID.

If you like what you hear, subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue.

We're back, I hope you've all had really busy summers full of lovely visitors. I'd really like to know how it's been for you. So feel free to get in touch. You can always email me at [email protected]. Can you believe this is season four of Skip the Queue Podcast? I cannot believe that we've been running for so long now. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for sticking around and for supporting us. 

We have a whole season full of really brilliant guests booked in, and I know that you're going to absolutely love them. We'll be covering topics on innovation, pricing, filming, and even aromas. Yeah, you heard me right, all the smelly stuff. But we are kicking off in style with the team at Katapult. 

Kelly Molson: Robbie.

Robbie Jones: Hello. Hello.

Kelly Molson: Welcome to Skip the Queue. I'm really excited to have you on today. Thank you for joining me for the first episode of season four.

Robbie Jones: I know. What an honour, what an honour. I can't believe that I've been chosen first.

Kelly Molson: You're the chosen one. Well, you say it's an honour now, but you might not appreciate it after I've got you with these icebreaker questions.

Robbie Jones: All good.

Kelly Molson: I've actually got some new ones this season. So I've been asking our lovely former guests and our Twitter followers to send me in some new ones because I felt like the old ones were getting a bit tired. So I'm going to whack you with some of the new ones and see how we get on.

Robbie Jones: Okay. Here goes.

Kelly Molson: I have to say, this is one of my favourite ones.

Robbie Jones: Okay.

Kelly Molson: It might date us slightly as well. You can only save one of the Muppets, which one do you choose and why?

Robbie Jones: I think Kermit.

Kelly Molson: Okay.

Robbie Jones: He's just iconic, isn't he? My first memory of Kermit is when they did their version of A Christmas Carol. The thought of Kermit doing that was amazing. So it's got to be Kermit, it's got to be Kermit.

Kelly Molson: Yeah, he's a classic. He's a classic, isn't he? He's quite legendary. All right. Good. Okay, good answer. Next one. If you could enter the Olympics for anything, what would you be Olympic level at? And we are not just talking sports here. This could be baking, moaning. What are you saying?

Robbie Jones: I think I see myself as a bit of a jack of all, a master of none. Maybe I'm a decathlete, something like that, where I'm good at a few things but I'm not amazing at one big thing.

Kelly Molson: When we go back to sports day at school, what was the thing that you would do at sports day?

Robbie Jones: It was probably the long distance running. I seem to do a lot of cross country, we used to call it in our school, which went from tarmac to a muddy path in about five minutes. So I don't know how cross country that was. But yeah, long distance running. I can't stand it now. I can't stand the noise of breathing, heavy breathing as I struggle up a hill. That's just not a sound anybody wants to listen to.

Kelly Molson: Oh, you really make me laugh. So the only thing I can think about when I'm running is breathing and now all I'm going to hear is myself breathing and think about Robbie and not wanting to do it. Okay, final one.

Robbie Jones: Yeah.

Kelly Molson: What movie can you rewatch over and over and over again? And how many times have you watched this movie that you're about to tell me?

Robbie Jones: So I think for an absolute nostalgia, it'd have to be Dumb and Dumber because the amount of bonding that me and my younger brother have done over that film is just immense. I think we reference it every time we speak to one another, it's just become part of our psyche, part of our relationship. So we've probably watched it dozens of times between us, but it gets referenced at least three times a week.

Kelly Molson: Oh, it's a great film.

Robbie Jones: Jim Carrey, brilliant.

Kelly Molson: He's great, isn't he? Are you going to do... So if we do the song, Mock-

Robbie Jones: Yeah.

Kelly Molson: ... ing-

Robbie Jones: Yeah.

Kelly Molson: ... bird.

Robbie Jones: I can't believe I'm doing this. I can't believe I'm doing it.

Kelly Molson: This is the level that the show has gotten to, folks. This is what we got up to on our summer break. And I love that film and my friends were really obsessed with Ace Ventura films as well, Jim Carrey.

Robbie Jones: Yes.

Kelly Molson: Cannot beat.

Robbie Jones: Yeah, comedy icon. Amazing. I love him to pieces.

Kelly Molson: Robbie, I can't believe I just made you do that. I'm so sorry. I've lost it now. Right. Unpopular opinion. What've you got for us?

Robbie Jones: Right. I don't think eating chocolate and fruit should go together. It's not right. I'll draw a line, fruit and nut in terms of a chocolate bar, dried fruits, I'm okay with. But when it's fresh, juicy things like grapes and strawberries going with chocolate, I just can't stand it at all.

Kelly Molson: Oh, what? Not a little fondue at a wedding? A little chocolate fondue? No?

Robbie Jones: No, just no. You wouldn't mix milk with water and drink it. And that's kind of what I feel like when I'm eating chocolate and fruit together. So yeah, whoever has got the largest fondue rental company, please stop because I don't like it.

Kelly Molson: Wow. Okay. I feel like that's quite controversial. The milk and water thing actually turned my stomach. When you said that, I was like, "Oh, no, you wouldn't, would you?"

Robbie Jones: There you go. Again, the next time you eat a fondue, just think of me and start gagging probably as I would.

Kelly Molson: Wow. What a note to start the podcast on. We've really taken this to a whole new level today, haven't we? Excellent. Right, Robbie, you are the lead insights analyst at Katapult. And I want to come back in a minute to talk about what your job entails, but first Katapult itself. So a little story for you. So years ago, you know when you were at school and you'd have to pick work experience? My granddad had a business and his next door neighbour's business made props for films.

Robbie Jones: Nice.

Kelly Molson: So I bagged myself work experience at this place and I got to make loads, I just got to make some weird stuff that then ended up in films. And I remember going to the cinema, watching the film going, "I made that Hessian box there. I sewed that. Whoa, that was really good." If I could go back now and go, "No, this is where I want to go and do work experience," I would choose Katapult without a doubt because you do incredible things. Tell the listeners what Katapult does, it's so cool.

Robbie Jones: Yeah, sure. So we design themed attractions and experiences. We do it the world over and it could be as something as small as a little popup street food courtyard that we did a couple of years ago right to a large scale, full theme park design and everything in between. And it is, it's great, it's really, really fun. We get to work with some amazing clients, some amazing brands and IPs where the design team are just in their element. They're able to work with brands like LEGO that they've grown up playing with since they was small boys and girls. So it's fantastic for us all to carry on being a kid really, in essence, being creative, being surrounded by colour and fun and entertainment. Don't get me wrong, there's a lot of hard work that goes into it. A lot of extended hours, red-eye flights across the world. But it's amazing. It's amazing to be a part of and design some pretty amazing things that are either coming soon or already open. So yeah, we do a lot and we're very thankful.

Kelly Molson: It's so exciting. I feel like you played it down a little bit there as well. You were like, "Yeah, we design attractions and experiences." I was like, "Yeah, you do. It's really exciting." What do you do specifically there? Lead insights and analyst is your job title.

Robbie Jones: Yeah.

Kelly Molson: So you are kind of the data that sits behind that, the research that sits behind it.

Robbie Jones: Yeah, absolutely. So I think something that we've been in the industry for over 20 years now and gradually that we've seen that actually it's really good to make sure you've got some sort of insights, believe it or not, to make a very good decision. And it was something that was kind of lacking within the industry. There was lots of big thinking, feasibility reports, people telling you what the commercial outcomes would be to improve a visitor attraction or even to open a new attraction. But no one was really saying, "Well, hold on a minute, who is it that you're trying to get through the doors and what is it that they actually want? And have they actually got the money to spend that you are charging for?"

Robbie Jones: And that's the bit of the insights gap that I, and we at Katapult, fill. We understand the sheer importance of having that insights. We can't just design something from scratch, full stop, regardless of whether we are working with an IP or not. You've got to have an idea of who are the people coming through the door. So that sheer responsibility lays flat on my shoulders to make sure that whatever the design team designs next, it is fully in lined, not just commercially, but from a guest point of view as well that they are going to love it from the moment they walk in. So yeah, pretty big responsibility. But it's fantastic to set the design team up to let them creative minds go wild.

Kelly Molson: It is fascinating what you do. And I think that it's really similar to probably the bit that I do in our business, because my role is to understand what the client's challenges is. And so you are asking all of the questions around, "Well, who's your consumer? What do they spend? Where do they do? Where do they go? What do they read?" Et cetera, et cetera. And then you translate. The designers, they get to do the fun bit. But I think that the research bit is the fun bit, to be honest. They would probably argue with me. So how do you start that process? What are the kind of things that you're asking?

Robbie Jones: Well, I guess it depends on the client, depends on the project. But the way we typically start for existing visitor attractions is we kind of do a mystery shop, or we call it a guest experience audit. But we don't just go around and have fun, that's the second part of the day. The first part of the day is thinking about if you've got signs telling interpretation and you're a museum, are they at the right height for kids to read it? If it is, is it the right level of language required for a five, six, seven year old to be able to read it? And everything in between. It's is the staff levels good? Are there plenty of vegetarian options within the cafe facilities? All of these things where we want to make sure every touchpoint that every guest that comes through is satisfied and our audit goes in, it pulls out the good stuff, but more importantly for the operators, it pulls out the stuff where they could probably do a little bit better. It's the things that are probably mentioned more than often on TripAdvisor.

Robbie Jones: And so it gives us the chance to go, "Right, yes, we did find these issues. These need solving as soon as possible so let's get to work. Let's get to work in figuring out what we can do." And sort of 75% of the time, those things that we highlight, they can pretty much be done by the attraction themselves. It's only the other 25% where we go, "Right, your guests aren't staying for four hours and you want them to stay for four hours. They're only staying for two. What can we do to make the experience last twice as long? What can we do to keep them there and engaged and immersed for double the amount of time that they are before?" And that's obviously when we get the design team's creative juices flowing and start to think about what can we do to improve the attraction. So yeah, in a roundabout way, the guest experience audit helps to unlock the insights, helps to give us the ammunition we need to improve the attraction, and also look to work on some bigger projects for the clients as well. So yeah, that's a roundabout way in terms of how we do it with the audit.

Kelly Molson: I love that. So from your perspective, it's not just about creating new, it's not just about adding on. It's about looking at it from a holistic perspective. Where are you already? How are you performing? Okay, well, look, this is doing really well. That's great. These things need to improve. And then, okay, so now let's look at the new stuff. Because I guess there's always that excitement about, "New, new, new, new," isn't there? Oh, a new attraction, a new, I don't know, show that you're going to put on within it. And that's what gets everyone excited. Sometimes they forget to take that step back and go, "But what needs to improve with what we already have?"

Robbie Jones: Yeah, absolutely. And the greatest assets that visitor attractions have probably got are sat there already, they just need discovering. And what we tend to find is if it's not something tangible, like a ride needs improving or an experiential walking trail needs improving, it falls down to the narrative or the storytelling of the attraction. That seems to be the thing that we are coming across at the moment, which probably leaves a little bit left to be desired. People don't explain their stories enough. Why are they unique? Why are they telling us this story when you go into a museum? Or why has this art centre got this curation of art? People aren't very good at telling stories that guests want to listen to. So you're right. It's not always about the new, it's about the existing, but extrapolating what's good about that experience in the first place.

Kelly Molson: You wrote a really good article that I read a couple of weeks ago called Creating Unique Visitor Destinations in a Crowded Market. So I'm going to put a link to this in the show notes, but it's on Katapult's website as well.

Kelly Molson: You said that attractions need to capitalise on what is unique about them. And that's not just from the perspective of, "Hey, we've got this mascot," or, "this is how we're going to put it around the site." Is the location unique? Is the food offering that you have based on that location? What is it about you that really stands out that guests can't get anywhere else and they're not going to get the same story anywhere else? I thought that was such a great way of looking at the uniqueness of each attraction.

Robbie Jones: Yeah, and I think there's always going to be a place for attractions that have got the fastest thing, the tallest thing, the biggest thing. That does a lot to pull a crowd. But when it comes to trying to fight your corner, if you're medium or smaller size visitor attraction, you've got to pull on your unique. There's a finite source of money and time so you're going have to try and get your visitors and your guests a slightly different way. The article came from an issue that was within two strands of the industry. The first being museums and art galleries that were struggling from a values perspective to say, "We can't take this donation because it doesn't fit in with our values." Or museums having to give away certain artefacts back to countries because of the connotations of it being stolen in what is in today's society. So they're under huge pressure to say, "Well, what is our story? What is our narrative?" And for places like that, it is very much rooted in the locality. What is your city about? What is your region about? And curating around that.

Robbie Jones: The second strand is around experiences that have got a blueprint and are looking to create dozens of the same attraction all around the world. Again, there is absolutely a place for that in this world. We've got countless clients who do the same thing. But where there needs to be a differentiation is how the local market impacts what that attraction is. You can't just say, "We're going to have an indoor attraction that's going to have a soft play and a cafe and that's kind of it. And then we're going to put it throughout 40 different countries around the world." It's not going to wash. You can't just put a badge on the front of that indoor attraction and say, "Welcome to Tokyo. Welcome to Orlando." It's just not going to work. It's not going to wash. It is not unique enough.

Robbie Jones: So for those attractions, it's about, "Yes, you've got a blue blueprint, but what can you do differently based on the people, the profile, the guests that are going to come through that door to make it slightly tweaked in terms of things that they might not have from a local competitor point of view?" Or just making sure that you replicate their stories within the attraction. I've seen some really good stuff that Crayola have done in the US where they're starting to onboard local artists for their entertainment centres. That's amazing. You could be in the US, go to the two different Crayolas and have a different experience. So being able to create that unique experience is twofold, but it's one that everyone's got to look at quite a bit now.

Kelly Molson: So one of the things I thought was quite interesting is the scale of the projects that you work on at Katapult. So for example, I think you mentioned earlier, the Derby Market Place project, which is a popup marketplace, and then you've worked with organisations like the SEA LIFE London Aquarium. They're really different experiences. Do you look at the same approach when you are working with that kind of scale of client?

Robbie Jones: Yeah, absolutely. I think with those two examples, there was a very clear commercial goal for both of them. For SEA LFIE it was about adding an experience that makes the ticket price value for money, but it's also there to increase photographic and merchandise sales as well. So there was a very clear understanding of what the commercial goal was. For Derby Market Place, that was actually a popup courtyard that was set up in 2020 just after the first lockdown of the pandemic in the UK. Derby is our home city and we was approached by the city council to do something that will support the local businesses because there was obviously restaurants, cafes going bust because they simply couldn't do a takeaway service or they didn't have the outdoor catering. So for that, we created a courtyard.

Robbie Jones: So as a result, they both had commercial goals and we both started them pretty much the same way, which is, "Right. Well, who is it that's going to come through the door?" Who is it? What do they want? Is it a family of four? Is it a couple? How much money have they got? What sort of experience are they used to? How long are they going to stay? What information are they going to want? All of this information that I guess sometimes we take for granted in the attractions industry, feed it into the design and ultimately come up with exactly what we did for the marketplace and SEA LIFE. So yeah, I think by and large, we kind of stick along the same path, very much insights driven design. We do the insights, we design it based on that, and then we hope it reaches the commercial goal.

Kelly Molson: So you mentioned Crayola a minute ago. That is a brilliant example of really using the locality to make that attraction individual. What other great examples of really truly unique attractions can you think of?

Robbie Jones: Well, I think I mentioned it in the article you've already mentioned. But Meow Wolf, particularly the first one in Santa Fe, that is an absolute benchmark that I use in terms of how you use local talents, local immersion to help make Santa Fe a destination in it's own right. It's amazing how much one attraction can pivot the way that a region is seen, a city is seen, and turns it into a place that people are staying overnight for two or three nights to just to go to Meow Wolf. So definitely that, in terms of creating a destination.

Robbie Jones: But I do want to pull out another example as well, and it's not necessarily unique as such, but it's the feeling is unique, and that is Paultons Park. So for those that have been to Paultons, Peppa Pig World is there, which is a massive pull. They've got some great rides, they've got some really good food and beverage outlets, a good smattering of live performances. But what makes the park stand out is how immaculate it is when it comes to public realm. The gardens are fantastic, the landscaping's amazing. You'd be hard troubled to find a piece of litter on the floor. And the staff are so incredibly attentive with attention to detail that actually, when I've gone a few times now, it's the one thing that always stands out to me. And it's the benchmark for just cleanliness. You could be forgiven for being in a communist China, it's very clean and orderly and focused. But actually when we think about visiting a theme park, we want it to be glossy and clean and not a bother in the world. And it's little things like that, for me, that have made Paultons an absolute benchmark as well for us.

Kelly Molson: Because I always think back to Disney about that and no litter, beautiful gardens and that, for me, is the level. I haven't had the pleasure of Paultons Park yet. I think I've got a couple more years and then it'll be on the list.

Robbie Jones: Yeah, absolutely. You'll find out just much you can spend in that store with Peppa Pig.

Kelly Molson: Oh God. Yeah, I can imagine. Let's talk about summer and let's talk about what the attractions market looks like at the moment. So I know that you've had an incredibly busy summer and as we are recording this, we're still at the tail end of it. So I can imagine that you are looking forward to a little bit of a rest-

Robbie Jones: Yes, definitely.

Kelly Molson: ... come September-October time. How is the attractions market looking at the moment to you post-COVID? Because we've moved on, so to speak, from COVID or the majority of people have moved on from it, but I think it's really difficult with attractions because we are still seeing a slight decline in visitor numbers, but there's obviously other factors going on at the moment in terms of the energy crisis and things like that. So what's your view of the leisure and attractions market at the moment?

Robbie Jones: I think post-COVID, if we think about the start of the year, I think it was incredibly buoyant. I think attractions have seen the opportunity to invest now. The staycation market has absolutely boomed during the times when international travel around the world was banned. So it means that there's been a strong staycation market, which is really, really good. I think for the UK in particular, it's making sure, and this isn't just the attractions industry, I think this goes across the whole staycation market of the UK, don't get so greedy. There's a lot of... I understand that demand is high and you want to capitalise on it. But if we want to keep the UK as a staycation destination, you can't be charging silly prices compared to what they could probably do as an all inclusive for 10 days in Mallorca, as an average in terms of what the family's going to do. You've got to offer some sort of value for money.

Robbie Jones: And the cost of living is the big thing now. I think that's what we are seeing. COVID is there in the background and it's obviously affected things, but the cost of living is the one that's really starting to bite a little bit more now. And I think it's because although we saw a lot of drop in wealth during the COVID pandemic, actually the cost of living now is probably a harder time for a lot of people because the savings have already been taken up by making sure they've got income coming in or topping up furlough or whatever it was. So yeah, the cost of living is the big thing. People aren't going to go out and spend, I don't know, 200, 300 quids on a day at a theme park. I can't see it happening. If they do, they'll have to forgo something else and I think that's something that's going to be in the minds-eye of visitor attractions.

Robbie Jones: And I think we're starting to see a homogenised view of what we mean by leisure and attractions. Shopping centres now want to get in on the act and have lots of entertainment. You've got places like Butlins and Pontins in the UK, so typical caravan hotel resorts that have built live entertainment and experiences around them. They are in direct competition with theme parks and visitor attractions because they're offering entertainment. So the more experiences are spread throughout our sphere of what we can and can't do, the less money there is to go around. So even more of a need for people to be a little bit more unique and think about it's not just what's going to get me to this theme park, it's why would they choose the theme park over X, Y, and Z. And as they always say, option Z could be sitting at home and watching Netflix. You've you've got to do something to get people off the sofa.

Kelly Molson: I'd not considered the option Z could be Butlins or Pontins though. That has just blown my mind because the whole way through the pandemic, we've been saying, "Your competition is Netflix, it's Disney+." But I hadn't even considered that now people are looking at how they spend that excess cash and how they spend their holiday time. Butlins is a competitor for Alton Towers.

Robbie Jones: Yeah, in that comparison, absolutely. It's just that they've gone about things in opposite directions. Butlins went from accommodation to experiences and Alton Towers, vice versa, but they are very, very much competitors these days. And if you had £500 as a family to spend for a weekend, where would you go? And actually you look at the offers of both of those examples and depends on what sort of family you are and what sort of things you like to do. It might be a hard decision to make, but ultimately it'll be the one, it won't be the both.

Kelly Molson: Yeah, absolutely. Okay. So you said that you have seen attractions investing in new rides and experiences to capitalise on that staycation. What do you think attractions should be doing right now based on what we've just discussed, this competitive state that you are in?

Robbie Jones: It sounds really cliche, but I think just have a long term view on things. I can say this from doing insights here at Katapult, but when we are looking at data and trends and audiences, we are not just looking over the last 12 months. We're looking five or 10 years in the past and five and 10 years in the future to get a really good outlook in terms of, "Well, what do we think people are going to do?" Obviously you can't always guess what's going to happen. I think the last few years have taught us that. But you can have some sort of a vision in terms of where you want to go. Where do visitor attractions want to be in 10 years time? I'd love to know how many attractions know that answer.

Robbie Jones: If they know it, then that's fantastic because they'll be gradually building towards that. But what we've seen from our side at Katapult is that we've gone to a lot of visitor attractions around the world that are doing a fantastic job at iterating, whether they've got a theme park or museum or whatever it is, but it's all bundled together in a big mound of plasticine with lots of different colours attached and different shapes. And it does a job, but it doesn't feel like the same place. And if we're treating that as the elixir of the visitor attraction, then that you need to get to the point of, "Well, what is your 10 year goal?" If you know that, you know what you're going towards. And I'd certainly focus on that, if you've got a little bit of spare time.

Kelly Molson: Yeah, they're not busy at the minute. It's just been through summer. They should be resting now, the summer's done. That's really hard though, isn't it? So an example of that locally, to me, so I live near a vineyard, there's a lovely vineyard, about 15 minute walk from my house called Saffron Grange. Just give them a little plug because it is phenomenal. They've been selling their wines since 2019. However, the vineyards were planted like 11 years before that. And so they have had to have the vision of whatever they were planting and however they were designing that plot of land that they have. It's phenomenal the things they had to think about. What trees they would plant, because that's how high they would grow that would shield those vineyards from the wind and those vineyards from the frost. And just the granular level of planting that's had to go into that place to make the wine and the grapes now to be at the best they possibly can, it blows my mind.

Kelly Molson: But it's the same thing at a visitor attraction. You've got to have that vision to go, "Well, this is my idea and this is how we're going to develop it over that time." But you've got the factor of not really knowing what your customers are going to want at that point. With the vineyard, at least they know relatively, other than wind and rain influences and weather that you can't predict, they kind of know how those vines are going to grow and what they're going to get at the end of it. With an attraction, you've got multiple different audiences with multiple different opinions on what they want and what their needs are, throw in a global pandemic. Just how do you even do that? I can't comprehend how you do that.

Robbie Jones: I think we get caught up sometimes in thinking that a 10 year vision or a goal, or whatever you want to call it, has to be numerical or it has to be very definitive in terms we want to be the number one theme park in the world. Those sorts of things, you are almost hamstrung by. But what about if you said that you wanted your visitor attraction to be the most inspiring creative place for kids under 10? That is a vision. That is a vision that you can build towards. And if things change, whether it's your audience or your local competitors or whatever it is, you can still build towards that vision because that's what you believe in.

Robbie Jones: It's about having a sense of what your values are as a business or as an attraction, standing by them, making that vision a reality by saying, "All right, we're going to do this because we believe in it." And that, again, ties really nicely back into what creates a unique attraction. It's your values. And I think it's the same for every business. We're seeing it a lot more now in the wider business community where people are making a choice over values instead of cost. Although the cost of living is obviously exacerbating that slightly. But people are making choices on green energy instead of fossil fuels, for example. So visitor attractions are only going to go the same way. So it's a big one. Yeah, you're right. 10 years. If you don't know your 10 year vision, then you don't know how to get there over the next 10 years.

Kelly Molson: I love that.

Robbie Jones: So, it is sorted.

Kelly Molson: Yeah, so just put that to the top of the list, attractions. Yeah. Now I guess that's a really good place to be now, isn't it? You've just gone through that really, really hectic summer period. Now, the run up to Christmas, bar a few events and things that'll happen, it's a time for planning for next year. So now is a really good time to be able to take that step back and go, "Okay, well, what is our vision? Do we need to revisit our values and vision?" And then that will make the planning for 2023 a hell of a lot clearer. Okay. One last question on this, because what if attractions are already doing really well at the moment? Because we've got attractions, outdoor attractions that have been smashing it.

Robbie Jones: Yeah.

Kelly Molson: So what if your attractions are at capacity, what then do you do? So you are looking at things like planning, the expansions, things like that. What can they do?

Robbie Jones: I think there's one of two route that are seeming quite popular at the minute. I think one is to, if you look at places like Gravity and Puttshack and a few others that have escaped my mind, by almost franchising, if you think you've got a concept that is completely unique and can be spread throughout the UK, Europe, worldwide, then now's the opportunity to look at it. It needs some careful consideration. As we said before, you can't just copy and paste. But if you think you've got something pretty amazing, then go for it. Well, why not open a second or a third or a fourth? You've proven it can work, so try it. It's worth a go.

Robbie Jones: And the second thing, and this is something where I think the bigger museums during the pandemic have really led the chase on this, so I think it was one of the museums in London, I can't remember what, but they introduced lates, Museum Lates where they did silent discos around the exhibits. This is a perfect time to try completely different things. If you've got an out of season or you've got low throughput days or weeks or weekends, then what can you do to bring in another audience? Let's try and fill up your throughput and your dwell time of your attraction 100% of the year round. If you can do that, then you're making more from the asset that's already making your money. So try it out. Find new guest profiles, find new groups of audiences that might want to visit, and consider doing something very special for them. And you never know. If it works out, then you've got an extra revenue stream that you didn't think you had. So they'd be my preference, if I was in that fortunate position, to go down one of those two routes.

Kelly Molson: Great advice. Thank you. We're going to put all of Robbie's contact details, et cetera, all in the show notes. So if you fancy a chat with him, you want to find out a little bit more about what Katapult do, you want to book yourselves one of those... Oh God, I've forgotten the words. One of the-

Robbie Jones: Audit.

Kelly Molson: Audit, audit, audit is the word. If you'd like to book one of those audits. So you can do that. I would love to know about a book though, Robbie. So we always offer up a guest's book choice as a prize and it's can be something that you love, it can be something that's helped shape your career in some way. What do you have for us today?

Robbie Jones: Gosh, can I pick two?

Kelly Molson: It's double my marketing spend, but why not? What's the first one?

Robbie Jones: Oh, good, fantastic. So I think one that's a personal one is by Ernest Hemingway, The Sun Also Rises. It's a lovely in depth read about the twenties and thirties where cafe culture was rife and artists and poets were making adventurous trips to France and Spain to soak up the culture. And it's a wonderful, wonderful story that really makes me want to live 90 years from now and really enjoy it. I think that's the first part. The second part is that Ernest Hemingway used to be a journalist so his descriptions of the characters are very matter of fact and I think that's seeped into my audience profiling that I do as part of my job. I like the matter of fact, I like the facts that make the people real, and then start to tell the story of what we think they're going to do in an attraction. So I think Ernest Hemingway has certainly had an influence on me.

Robbie Jones: And then the second book is called Superforecasting, which is by Philip Tetlock and Dan Gardner. Now this, it came to prominence a little bit when Dominic Cummins was advisor to Boris Johnson in his ill-fated stay at 10 Downing Street, and it speaks about the art and science of prediction and getting things right. And I read it from end to end. I completely soaked this book up. It's a little bit courty in places so you've got to take a bit of pinch of salt. But it's good at kind of teaching you to say, "Right, can you be a super forecaster?" And funny enough, I think it was February or March this year, they put out a bold statement that Vladimir Putin was not going to enter Ukraine under any circumstances, at least for the next six to nine months and then I think it was about two weeks later and he invaded. So I think that example of the book, it kind of comes with a moral, I think, which is you can super forecast or try and super forecast as much as you want, but you've got absolute no way of deciding what's going to work. There's a difference between a good and a bad decision and a good and a bad outcome. And I think that's what that book's taught me.

Kelly Molson: Yeah, that example did not sell that book for me at all. However, that sounds great. That sounds like a really good book. You've absolutely blown my marketing budget again, which everybody always does.

Robbie Jones: So sorry.

Kelly Molson: No, I love the example of Ernest Hemingway and I love how it's infiltrated the way that you do your work as well. I haven't read either of those books so they're going to go on my list. And actually, listeners, we do compile a list of all of the books that all of our guests suggest and you can find that over on the Rubber Cheese website, rubbercheese.com, go to the insights, it's in there. Robbie, thank you. As ever, if you want to win Robbie's books, if you go over to our Twitter account and you retweet this show announcement with the words, "I want Robbie's books," then you will be in with a chance of winning both of them. I've loved our little chat. Thank you. Thank you for indulging in my little song.

Robbie Jones: Oh gosh. I'm just glad that you didn't get me to do the scene where he's peeing into a bottle in Dumb and Dumber. Very well.

Kelly Molson: I don't think that would've worked very well on the podcast. Do you?

Robbie Jones: No, no. I'm sure you can add some trickle sounds in.

Kelly Molson: Yeah.

Robbie Jones: If you wanted to.

Kelly Molson: Let's end there, shall we? It's been a pleasure. Thank you, Robbie.

Robbie Jones: Thank you so much.

Kelly Molson: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned. 

Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website rubbercheese.com/podcast.

Download The Visitor Attractions Website Survey Report - https://www.merac.co.uk/download-the-visitor-attractions-survey

We have launched our brand-new playbook: ‘The Retail Ready Guide to Going Beyond the Gift Shop’ — your go-to resource for building a successful e-commerce strategy that connects with your audience and drives sustainable growth.

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Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is  Kelly Molson, MD of Rubber Cheese.

Download our free ebook The Ultimate Guide to Doubling Your Visitor Numbers

If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website rubbercheese.com/podcast.

If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this podcast

Competition ends October 1st 2022. The winner will be contacted via Twitter.

Show references:

https://www.pensthorpe.com/about-us-history/

https://www.edp24.co.uk/news/business/why-running-pensthorpe-near-fakenham-makes-you-feel-good-by-1395106

https://www.bbc.co.uk/norfolk/content/articles/2008/05/23/springwatch_jordans_interview_20080523_feature.shtml

Leading the flock are the enigmatic owners of Pensthorpe; Bill and Jordan. Prior to purchasing Pensthorpe in 2003, the couple lived in Bedfordshire where Deb had a successful career in fashion and photography, and Bill ran Jordans, the hugely successful cereal business he co-founded with his brother.

Wanting to raise their two children in Deb's native Northfolk, they jumped at the chance to buy Pensthorpe and combine Bill's knowledge of sustainable farming practices with their longstanding love of nature.

They've been part of the landscape ever since.

Transcriptions:

Kelly Molson: Welcome to Skip the Queue, a podcast for people working in or working with visitor attractions. I'm your host, Kelly Molson. Each episode, I speak with industry experts from the attractions world. 

In today's episode, I speak with Bill and Deb Jordan, owners of Pensthorpe. Bill and Deb share the heartwarming highs and lows of creating this multi-award-winning tourist attraction. Have a listen in to find out what part Bill Oddie played in it all. 

If you like what you hear, subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue.

Kelly Molson: Bill and Deb, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. It's absolutely lovely to see you both. We're going to start off with a few small icebreaker questions just to get us warmed up. So we're going to talk a little bit about cereal today. It's going to be part of the conversation. I want to know, what has been the worst food that you've both ever eaten?

Bill Jordan: Oh, my word. I think school food didn't exactly do much for us.

Kelly Molson: School dinners?

Deb Jordan: One of my flatmates once complained that I had a tin of meatballs in the fridge that was open. So now I realise that many moons ago, I did used to eat badly in London.

Kelly Molson: All right. Tins of cold meatballs in the fridge. To be fair, I quite like cold beans straight out of the tin.

Bill Jordan: Oh, really.

Kelly Molson: So I'd probably go for the cold meatballs, actually.

Bill Jordan: Yeah.

Kelly Molson: I might be all right with that. Let's go for your unpopular opinions.

Deb Jordan: An unpopular opinion. I get very wound up about spin. I really do go off on one. It could be about anything where people actually say, so they pick up on something like children using mobile phones. Therefore, they will say that their business prevents that, and it's all to do with the fact that X, Y, Z. I just get frustrated when people use something that they've heard of in the press that is good for people. Even if it's like a cereal packet where it's saying this is healthy for you. Probably because I'll know that Bill will tell me exactly how many calories it's got in it. It's all a load of rubbish. But that is an opinion I get very wound up about. I hope I don't then fall into the frame of actually being accused of doing the same thing.

Bill Jordan: I think when I heard the question, I got slightly concerned that I'd reached a sort of age where I didn't even recognise whether the views are unpopular or not.

Kelly Molson: We're all getting there, Bill. Oh, I love that. Well, that's a good opinion to have. I wouldn't say that's very unpopular, but I think that's a good opinion to have.

Bill Jordan: Might be the definition of being out of touch.

Kelly Molson: I doubt that very much considering what we're going to talk about today. We're going to talk about Pensthorpe today. I mean, I think it's one of Norfolk's best-kept secrets. Whenever I talk about Pensthorpe, I have been describing it to people recently and telling them how fabulous it is, and they go, "I've never been there. We go to Norfolk quite a lot." And I'm like, "Right. Well, you have to go there now." So I've convinced at least 10 people recently that Pensthorpe is top of their list of places to go. It's just phenomenal.

Kelly Molson: But, I want to know what were your backgrounds prior to Pensthorpe? Because they're very different. They weren't in the attractions industry at all, were they?

Deb Jordan: No, not at all. I think Bill needs to lead on that one.

Bill Jordan: Okay. Well, mine, for about 30 ... Probably more years than that. I'd founded and was running with my brother a breakfast cereal company. I guess you'd call it such a natural food company in the days when there was a natural food movement. There was quite a reaction against factory food, which of course still goes on today. So my background was much more about food and land use and farming practice and local food and nutrition and all of those things, which I still find very fascinating. Although, thankfully, I'm not that closely involved as I used to be, because it's hard work.

Kelly Molson: I can imagine that's hard work. Did you come from a farming background prior to that? Did you grow up in that environment?

Bill Jordan: Yeah. We all grew up at on a flour mill, which still exists in Bedfordshire. Our mum still lives there. She's 96.

Kelly Molson: Oh, wow.

Bill Jordan: She's lived in the same house for over 70 years. Yeah, we were lucky. We got brought up as kids kind of above the shop, really. It was a mill that made white flour. It made brown flour. It made animal feed. It was an interesting place to live. A lot going on.

Kelly Molson: Wow. You were kind of in it, right? You lived and worked there?

Bill Jordan: Yeah. School holidays, you had to bag up animal feed or pack flour or something. It was kind of went with living there, really.

Kelly Molson: Yeah. Deb, what about you? What's your background?

Deb Jordan: Well, I was very lucky to be born and live in Ringstead in Norfolk, which is only about 20 minutes, 25 minutes drive away. My dad was a farmer on the Le Strange Estate. The farm ran at the back of old Hunstanton. Yeah, idyllic. In the summer holidays, we were very lucky to just be out, left to just roam. I think actually once I ran away. I found a really nice spot to sit for the day. And by about 7:00 PM, I thought, "Actually, nobody cares. Nobody's noticed." And that did actually really make me laugh. I remember saying to my mum when I got back, "Did you not know? Did you not notice I'd run away? So she'd, "No. I know you went out in a very mad mood. But no, I hadn't noticed yet, darling. The good thing is you were hungry and here you are."

Deb Jordan: I just remember thinking, "Gosh, when you look back, how lucky that was." It sort of made you stand on your own two feet. You used to get involved with a bit of wild oat picking and have jumps around the farm, around the house. But sadly ... I say sadly because it didn't really suit me. I was sent away to boarding school quite a long way away and was rather rebellious and unhappy, but a very privileged start. I think that probably stays with you forever about the nature and the fun. There's so much to explore, and you don't really need too much else other than a bicycle and the nature to make a very happy childhood.

Kelly Molson: Oh God, that's really lovely. Ringstead is a very beautiful place as well. There's a lovely pub there called The Gin Trap that I've been to a number of times. Yes.

Deb Jordan: Spent a lot of my youth in The Gin Trap. Yes. Sipping gin and orange or something ghastly with a boyfriend from cross lake.

Kelly Molson: Oh, what a lovely, so that's really nice to hear, actually. I didn't realise how kind of embedded nature had been into both of your childhoods really, which I guess brings us to Pensthorpe. And you purchased it in, it was in 2003, wasn't it? And it was originally a bird reserve. What made you make the jump into buying something like this and you know, how did that happen?

Bill Jordan: Well, it was a very unusual day when we first got to see the Pensthorpe, we had the children were, I don't know, kind of able to walk by that time. And we had a day in wandering around Pensthorpe.

Deb Jordan: Six and eight.

Bill Jordan: Six and eight. There you go. I'm no good at it. So we had a day looking around Pensthorpe which kind of came out of the blue and no, I think we were sort of rather bowled over, knocked out by it all. It was, the kids was surprisingly quiet and reflective. We were having a good time and we'd read somewhere that it was possibly up for sale. So when we were walking out of Pensthorpe, we asked the lady behind the counter, "Is it still for sale? Has it been sold?" And they said, "Well, you better go and speak to that gentleman over there. That's Bill Mackins." And we did. And then we kind of got pulled into the whole site. Yes that's how it happened.

Deb Jordan: It was actually, Bill had been looking for some years. He was always interested in properties for sale in Norfolk. I think he may have been thinking that his connection with Jordan's and conservation and great farming and that he, I think he was already feeling he needed to put his money where his mouth was and start something to do with food in the countryside. A bit like the sort of taste of north, but type thing I think was going on in the back of his head. So he was often buzzing around on the bicycle looking and when Pensthorpe came up, I actually saw it and he was looking at my magazine and I said, "No way, no, no, no." So actually then we were visiting Norfolk because we did a lot with our children to see my parents and it sort of came to that.

Deb Jordan: Well, why don't we just go and look? And I really wasn't very on board at all, but I have to admit that once here it's an extraordinary site and it sort of pulls you in. It's a place that you sort of, not too sure why, but you feel very connected to it. And I think that it really surprised us that day that it took us in and it took us along and then meeting the owner and him connecting with the children. It must have been about this time of year because then obviously the birds molt and there was a lot of feathers that the children have just spent the whole time looking for feathers and putting them in a bag. And we had to sort of say to the owner, look, we haven't been plucking your birds. This whole collection is then explaining to us the molting, that how at this time of the year, everything, all the ducks and geese use their feathers and can't fly.

Deb Jordan: So they're all on the ground. And it's extraordinary at the moment how we've got hundreds of gray legs and geese all sitting, waiting for that time where the feathers have grown through and they can then take off again. But it was just that he then had some peacock feathers and said, "Look here kids take these home." And he knew my dad. So he was saying that he had known my dad before he died. And so there was a sort of an immediate connection there. And then I think he could see that Bill was very interested. And then he suggested before we left, because we'd asked about it being up to sale, he told us that it'd fallen through and he suggested that Bill meet somebody called Tim Neva, that was working in Cambridge and was working locally. And that sort of rather started the ball rolling. Yeah.

Bill Jordan: Yes. I think another sort of link had been the fact that with Jordan, so amongst other things, we'd done quite a lot of work on the supply chain for the cereals. So we were working by then with quite a lot of farmers who were quite conservation minded and were putting habitats onto their farm for increasing wildlife and doing all of those sort of things, which of course was being done at Pensthorpe. So it was an aspect of what we'd been used to in the food industry. And it was done being done very well here at Pensthorpe. So yeah, that's kind of how it fitted in as well.

Kelly Molson: What a wonderful story. You went to visit and then ended up buying the place. I love that.

Bill Jordan: Well, it was bit of a shock. It wasn't kind of on the cards that's for sure.

Deb Jordan: No, I think it was funny things to, you could have looked back and at the time I think we could see the beauty of the place, the fact that you thought, oh my goodness, Nancy's bringing up a family here and getting connected to all this and the bird life and everything else. I think what probably happened, which was, in hindsight, wasn't so good was that this connection with somebody that was a very good salesperson on behalf of filmmakers, who was saying I'll bring my family from Brisbane in Australia because they ran the Mariba wetland out there. So I can run this for you. So we actually spent a lot of time working with Tim prior to buying it and hearing how he was going to bring his wife and do the total daily running of the place. And that it would be Deb, you can get involved in the hub and bringing in crafts people and local produce and local gift and Bill can get involved in farm when we see him, because it's going to, you were still at George.

Deb Jordan: And it wasn't. So we signed on the dotted line up on December 20th, 2002. And about three weeks, four weeks later, we had a phone call from Tim Neva there about saying, "I'm really sorry, but my wife, my boys are older than I thought. They're very at home in Queensland. And Gwyneth doesn't feel that it's actually something she could do at the minute, but I will be very supportive and I will come and be helpful." So that was a big shock. And so we put the house up for sale and pretty well moved during Jan, Feb, March 2003.

Bill Jordan: I think within about 10 weeks, poor Deborah had to move the children from one school to another and make sure he got some housing. You trying to sell the housing you're in Bedfordshire. So it was a bit of a traumatic time.

Kelly Molson: Oh my goodness.

Bill Jordan: Amusingly, our children, children. They're big. Now they remind us every now and then that what we put them through and shouldn't we be guilty. We have to take it on the chin every time they raise it.

Kelly Molson: I bet. I mean, that's incredible. Isn't it? So you, so suddenly you've gone from, oh, okay, well we're going to do this, but we've got someone that will manage it for us to that's it. They're not coming and you are in it. This is your deal. You've got to do it. So Bill, were you still juggling Jordans at the same time? So you had,

Bill Jordan: Yeah.

Kelly Molson: You had both responsibilities.

Bill Jordan: Jordans were still going full ball. Yeah.

Kelly Molson: How did you manage that?

Bill Jordan: Well the usual thing, I handed it over to the lady on my left here.

Kelly Molson: Of course.

Bill Jordan: We done most of it since then.

Kelly Molson: Wow, Deb. That was, so that was not what you were expecting at all. And then suddenly you've had to completely change your life, move your children, move them to school, move home, and now you are managing a bird reserve.

Deb Jordan: Yeah, we were very naive and it was a struggle. Yeah. I think we're both quite resilient and there really wasn't much that could be done other than let's just crack on. And just try and keep really focused and learn from all the people that were already here. And Tim was definitely in the mix, but I hadn't realised that it would mean moving that quickly or looking for somebody to manage it. It was pretty full on to suddenly find yourself as the person. They had an amazing book in the shop, which was all the garden and it was wildlife of the waterfowl of the world. And I remember putting it under my bed and got some binoculars and looked out at the lake every morning to see what was on there to identify what we'd got.

Deb Jordan: And then it was such a small team. There was just four ladies in the shop that ran seven days. Two of them did. You know, and we had about two, two wardens or yes on the farm banding Paul and you know, it was, it was just a very small team and they were really helpful and they explained what I was meant to be doing what happened. And then Tim came and went and we sort of, and it grew. We didn't really have much of a plan I don't suppose. Bill kept saying to me all along whenever I said, "Look, we need a five or a 10 year plan." Or we just sort of, it evolved. We worked with the team and we started to sort of move slightly more towards trying to, we realised our kids aren't kids all get nature you don't have to explain it to them.

Deb Jordan: It's just ingrained in them. So we realised we haven't got any young members. That everybody was older and more bird related. We'd really upset one or two of them who wrote in, we just, we had a woman that would offer to become a volunteer here. And she was a fabulous lady and she'd actually been GM at the Wildfowl and Wetlands Trust. And she said, "Look Deb it's really important. We need to get more of a younger generation here. And so what we're going to do is we're going to do play. I worked at Fowl and Wetlands trust. And they did Wellie Boot Land and I'll eat my hat if it doesn't work." And Bill said, "I'll eat my hat if it does work." So we had to park Bill, luckily because Bill went home every Monday night, we'd sort of work on it quietly, Veronica, I and Mark, as to how we were going to get round Bill.

Deb Jordan: But by actually investing in an outdoor play area that was as though it was in the water as though it was a nature child. We encouraged people to bring their kids so that by getting them further out into the park, they could learn more about nature. But actually sometimes I think it's the parents that you have to encourage to come to a nature reserve, because they sort of think, what am I going to do with the kids and the kids actually get it and love it. So and one or two of the members that sort of said, I'm sorry, but we are now dropping out. We think that you are making a big mistake. I'm pleased to say that I bumped into the grandparents one day who said, look, I'm going to own up we're the people that wrote to you and were very rude, but this is Dudley and he's our grandson and we can't get enough enjoyment and make enough lovely memories with Dudley. So we forgive you.

Kelly Molson: Oh, that's so nice.

Deb Jordan: Yeah.

Bill Jordan: So we found quite a lot of the heavy duty birders might have started a bit nervous when they saw children's play and different things happening. But yeah, just as Deb explains, after a bit, they realised that yeah, they got grandchildren and here was somewhere that worked for them and you know, actually got to a couple more levels of generations within their family. So we were lucky there. And within the year I told Deb that it was all my idea anyway.

Deb Jordan: As you do.

Bill Jordan: As I like to.

Kelly Molson: It's interesting because earlier you used the word reflective about Pensthorpe and that's very much how I felt when I visited there. And what I found really interesting is that the children's play areas because now you have an indoor play area and the outdoor play area, they have been designed so well that they don't detract from that reflective feeling. Does that make sense? Like I could, I came on my own, I didn't bring my daughter, but I could still see how you could bring your children there and just have the most brilliant day of fun. But it is still a very calm and peaceful. It has a very calm and peaceful energy to it, the place that, and that's, I think that really comes through the minute you arrive. That's that's how I felt.

Deb Jordan: Yeah. I think when we tried to look at the site, which is really unique, because it's got so many different habitats and we sort of said to ourselves, "So how can we best use this?" And I think what we've tried to do is just like the play, which looks very natural. We've tried to continue the journey and so that you leave the play and then you head towards the wetland area. But there is a diversion where at the top of the Sandhill, there's in the wood, on the top of the Sandhill, overlooking the lake, there's this amazing den building area. And when you go up there you know very well that this is a family affair. There's no way that the kids have done the den building, but you pass through an area where we cut into the wetland and put a big ponder thing.

Deb Jordan: And then we sort of take you further along to a wood at the end where if a huge tree has fallen in the middle of it Richard leaves it there. And then the root base is all explained as to what's going on there, wildlife and we mow a path to it. So you can actually know that you're meant to get on the tree and run along the trunk. And, and I think, in fact we had a meeting here two weeks ago, Eco Attractions and they were saying, which was the best thing I'd heard, best acclaim I'd had. They said, "We've been out there Deb. And we sort of get what you're talking about, that you come across all this wild play, this just natural what's there is being used to tell a story, but have fun with. And we think that the best way of explaining you is a bit like the lost gardens of Halligan." Well boy, that was-

Bill Jordan: We didn't mind that at all.

Deb Jordan: We didn't mind that.

Kelly Molson: That is perfect.

Deb Jordan: What we are trying to do is keep the natural, but just encourage people to go out and get further and further from the hub with the trails that Natalie does and her team, which is so brilliant.

Kelly Molson: Yeah, it definitely comes across. So that is a perfect description of how I felt when I was there. I want to go back a little bit though, because we've kind of jumped forward. Let's go back to 2008 because you get a call from Springwatch. That must have been pretty exciting at the time. What did that do for the venue?

Bill Jordan: Well, perhaps even before answering that, you ought to hear how it actually happened.

Kelly Molson: Okay. Ooh, share!

Bill Jordan: To tell you about a conversation we had with.

Deb Jordan: Yeah. We'd been told that Bill Oddie wanted to come to Pensthorpe for his really wild show. And he was here specifically to look at corn crakes, which we were breeding and releasing with the RSPB and [inaudible 00:24:25] isn't it? And so he came and I hadn't really seen much of him because he'd been whisked away and he'd met the agriculturalist and the team and looked at the corn crakes and then he'd had a little wander as Bill does. And then he came back to the hub and I thought, oh, I'm not very good at selling myself, but there is nobody else. You just got to do this. I went out with my camera and I just said, look I'm Deb Jordan, and I hope you don't mind. Could I take your photos for our newsletter because it's so exciting to have you here.

Deb Jordan: And he did this amazing sort of thumbs up picture and he said, "I'm going to do this. And then you can write the copy dead because I absolutely love this place. You can say whatever you like and I'll be happy." Yeah. And it was about three weeks after that, when he'd gone that we received a letter to say, Bill Oddie has put you forward as a possible site for the next move at Springwatch. So I think they'd only done three years in the farm in Devon.

Bill Jordan: They had. Yeah.

Deb Jordan: And so they felt, and then with it, since then they've moved, I think almost every three years. So when I got this letter, I turned to Martin and said, this is special. Put it under my pillow and it stayed there.

Bill Jordan: Until they said, "Yes."

Deb Jordan: It stayed there until, until we'd heard we've got it.

Kelly Molson: Oh, that's amazing. Well done Bill Oddie. Thumbs up to Bill Oddie. So what, but what did that do that must have brought so much attention to the attraction?

Deb Jordan: It was amazing for us because although we can hear sky larks on the hill, above the scrape and we can hear our wildlife and we see our wildlife, it was fantastic for us to really get a grip. But when you see those nests that these guys are so clever and professional about finding, and I remember taking the children to school one day and on the way, hearing Terry Wogan talking about the little ring lovers that had been seen the night before at Pensthorpe on the way to scrape. And I just have pulled into a laid iron with banging my head against the wheel think, oh my God, doesn't get any better than Terry Wogan talking about little ring lovers at Pensthorpe. But it was fabulous. It allowed people to see the breadth of everything, wildlife and habitat wise because it is unusual because we've got the river that runs straight right through the middle. We've got farmland and we've a farm that's running. We've got wetland, we've got gardens, we've got-

Bill Jordan: It's 50 acres of lake.

Deb Jordan: There's just every sort of habitat you could really want. And I think that allowed people to sort of think, well, that honey little place that we hear about might be worth a visit. So it did help put us on the map.

Bill Jordan: I think we all learned quite a lot from it having us when I think there was probably up to 50, 60 people on site producing and one of the sort of excitements of the day for us was that we'd all been pulled back to the cafe building here, which they'd taken over and had about 40 different TV screens and monitors there. And we could see exactly all the bits that they filmed during the day and the night and all the bits that were current from being talked about and the interviews that were happening. Just to see the whole program put together a that end of the day, which was fascinating. And just the way they handled it and the way the sort of information they imparted to audiences is just, no, it was very clever, very clever indeed.

Kelly Molson: Was it strange to see the place that you live on the telly?

Deb Jordan: Very strange. In fact, one day, I can't quite remember what had happened, but because for eight o'clock they go live. I think it was something like a Muntjack in my garden. It was upsetting me. So I ran as I usually do, got my saucepan and banged my saucepan and prop people. Oh no. You know, and somebody said the next day, what was that noise we had to sort of cover up? But yeah, to tuck into the television, knowing, I mean, some nights we'd creep down and hide or be allowed quite close, but to have those people, to have Kate Humble here, Bill Oddie and then Bill Oddie swapped with Chris Packham. So to have Chris here for a couple of years and yeah, it was very, very special and-

Bill Jordan: It was quite a good set for them. They used to, where we're sitting right now, just below us was a sort of room that was completely derelict. So the whole, all of these five cottages here were derelict and poor BBC took pity on us and put a few glass windows and things. And so we wouldn't look too impoverished.

Kelly Molson: How kind of them.

Bill Jordan: Very kind of them. Yeah.

Kelly Molson: I want to ask a little bit, and it's something that you talked about right at the beginning where you said where you grew up, you kind of lived and worked and again now is where you live, and you work. How difficult is it for you to make that work in terms of your kind of like work life balance? Because you are kind of immersed in your business from the minute you wake up in the morning.

Deb Jordan: Yeah.

Bill Jordan: That not the clever bit, is it? It is hard work. It's quite hard work. And it needs to be mentioned just in case anyone else gets vague and puts their name down for a similar thing. It is hard work and you need to get on well with people and yeah, you are seven days a week, which is how an operation like this has to go. You've got people on site quite a lot of the day when they go home at five o'clock we get the park to ourselves and we can wander around.

Deb Jordan: Yeah, I think even as far as the work side of thing, when I look out at the window, I'll immediately think, wow. How lucky. This is extraordinary. And then I'll immediately think all the things that I haven't yet achieved or are on my list for this week that's never long enough. And I think that, on its own, would've been enough. I think, to go through some of the hiccups that life throws to the whole COVID thing, the avian flu thing, those make you pause and really think. That was tough. So we've had some brilliant times, some really big successes, but those things sort of leave you slightly wounded. But there again you've got a big team and everybody's been through the same thing. The whole world has had to reorganise and regroup and move on.

Deb Jordan: So yeah, I think that looking forward, one needs to be optimistic that we probably had our fair share of things that haven't really gone our way recently. But on the other hand, there's an awful lot to look forward to. And we've just done the new rebranding and we're very lucky with our marketing team that they totally understand this product. And when you've got a team behind you like that are so inspired by the site and are able to get that message across for all generations, whatever bit it is, whatever age you are, whether it's gardens or birds or families. It's a place for people to come and make memories. And thankfully, hopefully we are now, hopefully COVID is now a thing of the past and sadly avian flu won't be because it's still out there. And it's sort of becoming a real problem. You know, it hasn't really gone away this year for the UK even on Springwatch, we were watching the problems they've got in Scotland at the minute and even slightly closer to home again. So it is something that we are aware of and that we have to sort of rethink going forward, how, how you know, that we work with what we've got.

Bill Jordan: We do. But I think we've also sort of figured out that actually there is even more sort of requirement, demand, whatever you call it for getting out there. And nature in its best form and walking and space and all of those things seem to be even more important to a lot of the visitors we talk to.

Deb Jordan: Yeah. I think it definitely focused us on what is so special about this place? It's the freedom, it's the feeling of wellness out there, feeling of being able to put things that are worrying you that week away when you come to Pensthorpe. You get out there and you get diverted by the beauty of the place. You know, COVID was really problematic for everybody. I had started six months of chemotherapy in January 2020. So it was going into Norridge weekly for my chemo. So then when the country locked down, I would be sort of driving all with sweet leaf on the bad week. Somebody would be kind enough to drive me and whether it was with my daughter or whoever was kind enough to come with me, it seemed odd to be out on the roads.

Deb Jordan: Because the first lock down, there was no one anywhere and you'd get to the hospital and the nurses were amazing, but concerned obviously. It was new to us all. So seeing them afraid but resilient and just pushing on whatever. It was a very unusual time and we did do some furlough, so it was very quiet here because we'd have like one warden in and one avian came and the gardener stayed and the maintenance guy stayed, but everybody in the hub was gone. It was a very extraordinary thing to know that our visitors sadly had no access and were really needing it. There were some very ill people that I was coming across in hospital that were really totally needing nature at that time. And they weren't allowed out in it. So that also, it was a time of sort of looking and seeing, and then the wonderful thing was when we were able to open up, just knowing that at last you could open the doors and people could do what they had so badly been wanting to do and get here and get back outside.

Deb Jordan: And so we were very lucky that there was no fear from people that they would come and might get COVID here because there's so much space, as soon as we'd managed to alter the way into the park and get them through quickly. Yeah, sure. It was very rewarding to allow people to.

Bill Jordan: Some people were very cautious, wouldn't they, for quite a long time for all the obvious reasons and all worked well.

Kelly Molson: Gosh, you've really been through some very big highs and some very big lows there. Haven't you thank you for sharing that with us, Deborah and I'm really glad to see that you are recovered and enjoying your beautiful place again today. So let's talk about the future then, because we've talked loads about what's happened and what, what you've been through the venue has just won some really phenomenal awards. And I have to mention, so you were winners of the Large Visitor Attraction of the Year and winners of the Marketing Camp Campaign of the Year at the East of England Tourism Awards. But you also, you just won a bronze at a very large attractions award, very large toys of award didn't you?

Deb Jordan: Yes, we did. We were absolutely thrilled. Yes. We couldn't quite believe that because we'd achieved winner of the east. Then I think they put all the winners of the east and maybe others as well, all the other regions. So you get put into a pot and then the whole thing starts again. And somebody from the nationally won then comes out and looks so you don't know when they're going to come or when they've been. But when we heard that we've been put through, that was extremely exciting. Yeah. To go to Birmingham with the team and accept that award. We had some huge competition with Chester Zoo and actually public actually.

Kelly Molson: Oh yes.

Bill Jordan: Some pretty huge sort of attractions. So we felt we'd done well to get in that sort of elevated company.

Kelly Molson: Yeah. It's wonderful. It was so fabulous to see you get that, get that prize. I was really thrilled for you all. So what next? You've just had a beautiful rebrand and may I say also a beautiful website and it's really, you are in a really wonderful position of kind of exciting new things happening. So what's the plans for the venue?

Deb Jordan: Well, I think, the site itself is always going to need investment. Whether it be a cafe which has got a kitchen that needs work on, we're looking at how to get visitors further afield of more exciting things. But those would probably be more about a planning application. We've been working on a new sculpture garden, which is absolutely in its infancy at the moment. And the whole idea is actually to try and encourage sculptors to loan work. So that we've been buying sculpture on a yearly basis, which the visitors seem to love. I often come across the stag with people, with their children sitting on it or the wild boar or whatever it is. And we've just got the new fantasy wide ferry and the dandelions, which are a huge, seem to be pleasing everybody.

Deb Jordan: But the whole idea about that garden is actually to try and so that we can, when we've progressed it a little bit further, we can take photos and say to people, look it's not that we wanting to become a sculpture park, but we'd like for our members to be able to see other people's sculpture here, that they could have the opportunity to buy. So that's something that we're working on and it's very much in its infancy.

Bill Jordan: There's a sort of ongoing program with reintroductions, which is pencil QNS. We've got a very good agricultural team led by Christy. And yeah, we're working with the MOD, ministry of defense, who are collecting eggs from various different air fields around the east of England. We're then incubating the eggs here, looking after the chicks until they're ready to be released in the washes or Ken Hill farm, which features in spring wash at the moment or this spring anyway. So yeah, there's a lot of that work goes on, which again our visitors, like they can't see a huge amount of it because obviously it's all got to be bio secure, but it's something they like to feel that they're supporting. And it's sort of something that suits the area and yeah, it's something fortunate that some members of the team here are very good at. So yeah, that continues a pace. What else?

Deb Jordan: I think it's probably now sitting with the team and working on a more five, 10 year plan where we all know exactly where we're going and we are trying to just even become more wild. It's just trying to find that happy balance of people with giving them something to do that actually helping them want to get their kids further out into.

Bill Jordan: Yeah. And there is a lot of space here. We keep going on about that. But you know, the reserve itself is probably 200 acres, but you've got in total more like 500 and we take the discovery tours, land Rover tours out onto the farmland where we're, the wardens are working hard on the habitats there, fulfill encouraging more biodiversity and more wildlife out in that part of the reserve as well. So yeah, it's all part of the same thing and I don't know that we're going to run out things to do.

Kelly Molson: No, I think Deb's to-do list is getting longer by the minute. Isn't it? Thank you. This has been so lovely to talk to you. I would implore all of our listeners to please go and visit Pensthorpe because it is a really magical place. Bill Oddie was absolutely right about it. We were at the end of the podcast and we always ask our guests to recommend a book that they love. So it can be something that you've found useful for your career. It can be something that you just love from a personal perspective.

Deb Jordan: Well mine, the one I'd suggest that everybody should read, is Fingers In the Sparkle Jar by Chris Packham. I think it may have won best book in the wildlife somewhere. But it's a very remarkable, raw. It gets absolutely into the vulnerability of people with Asperger's. And so Chris did this extraordinary program on television, which was Asperger's and me. And I was amazed by that and how he put himself into that position of saying what was going on in his life and how difficult it had been for him. And this book is very much his early memoir, probably from about five to about 17.

Deb Jordan: And I think that it's just as any parent, anybody that has any sort of difficulties with actually fitting into a peer group. And I'm sure there are many people that either went through that themselves, when you are reading that book, you actually sort of feel the pain and you feel the vulnerability. And actually, I think it just makes us all as adults, especially aware if we've had that in our family, it helps us understand it. If we haven't got it in our family, it helps us understand it somewhere else. But it is a mesmerising read. So it's not like a chore. Everybody will read it and his descriptions and the way he explains his life in nature. It's just an absolute extraordinary book.

Kelly Molson: I have not read that. That's going top of my list. That sounds wonderful. Bill, what about you?

Bill Jordan: Well, we've just had a week away, which was rather nice. I read Sitopia by Carolyn Steel, which is a fascinating book. And it's talks about the way that we haven't been valuing food. We should be doing more on a local scale. The regenerational farming thing comes into it. And of course, Jake Finds and Holkham are all involved. And that's very much a Norfolk thing as well. So, no, I thought it was just a brilliant book. And again, we shouldn't be just talking about buying the cheapest food, although for some it's certainly necessary, but we should be looking at the importance of food in the civilisation rather than just what we can get away with and then factory farming and intensive farming it's got to change. Yeah. So that's my book.

Kelly Molson: Very topical book. Thank you both. As ever listeners, if you would like to win those books, if you head over to our Twitter account and you retweet this episode announcement with the words I want Bill and Deb's books, then you will be in with a chance of winning a copy of them. Thank you both so much today. It's been such a pleasure to talk to you. I know that you've got a really exciting summer coming up. There's loads going on at Pensthorpe, and I'm looking forward to coming back and bringing my daughter over to see the place as well. I'll see you then.

Deb Jordan: Fantastic. Thank you very much.

Bill Jordan: Thank you very much.

Kelly Molson: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others find us and remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned. Skip the Queue is brought to you by rubber cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website, rubbercheese.com/podcast.

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Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is  Kelly Molson, MD of Rubber Cheese.

Download our free ebook The Ultimate Guide to Doubling Your Visitor Numbers

If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website rubbercheese.com/podcast.

If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this podcast

Competition ends October 1st 2022. The winner will be contacted via Twitter.

Show references:

www.complete-works.co.uk

https://www.linkedin.com/in/bala-mcalinn-05406683/

Bala McAlinn began working in the Visitor Attraction industry in 2007 writing and directing shows for organisations including London Zoo and the Science Museum. In 2012 he founded Boo Consultancy Ltd, a sister company to the event agency Boo Productions Ltd. Boo Consultancy is a training and staffing agency that applies theatrical techniques to the environments of Visitor Attractions. They predominantly place actors in FOH positions to increase membership sales and visitor donations or deliver workshops to improve the sales and storytelling skills of inhouse teams. 

In 2021 they rebranded to Complete Works a nod to the greatest storyteller and their theatrical past and because our approach is holistic, redefining the 3 key elements of success: your visitors, your destination and your team.

They work with many leading organisations including the Royal Botanic Gardens Kew, Wembley Stadium, The Macallan Distillery and the National Gallery where they won a 2019 Institute of Promotional Marketing award for increasing visitor donations by more than 300% whilst also improving visitor satisfaction scores.

His parents are from Los Angeles, his wife is from Sydney and he was born in London. Thus, he has had various accents over the years and matched with the fact that he has an Indian forename and Irish surname, He has grown accustomed to people being generally intrigued, mildly amused and partially confused by him. Which is great for networking and tricky when changing energy supplier over the phone. Thankfully he does more networking than the latter. 

Bala has 3 hilarious children whom he enjoys making music, drawing cartoons and boxing with.

Transcriptions:

Kelly Molson: Welcome to Skip the Queue, a podcast for people working in or working with visitor attractions. I'm your host Kelly Molson. Each episode I speak with industry experts from the attractions world. These chats are fun, informative, and hopefully always interesting.

In today's episode, I speak with Bala McAlinn, founder of Complete Works. I ask Bala how you teach someone to be a good storyteller, and he shares his tips for improving visitor experience through performance.

If you like what you hear, subscribe on all the user channels by searching, Skip the Queue.

Kelly Molson: Thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today. It's lovely to have you on.

Bala McAlinn: Very welcome, Kelly. Nice to be here.

Kelly Molson: I am going to ask you a few icebreaker questions, because this is how we start every interview. We've met before though, I don't feel like we need to break the ice, but everyone loves these, so let's go ahead.

Kelly Molson: We're going to talk about storytelling and we're going to talk about visitor experience. I want to know what your favourite story is?

Bala McAlinn: I'm going to go with, I think my favourite story of all time is The Diamond as Big as the Ritz by F. Scott Fitzgerald, which is a short story that he wrote about, it's slightly science fiction, but within the real world.

Bala McAlinn: And there's a family who for generations live on a mountain and the mountain is a diamond, but they have to control the flow of diamonds into society otherwise the price of diamonds would plummet and they wouldn't be as rich.

Bala McAlinn: So they're like a secret Bond villain family who live on this diamond mountain and have servants who speak their own language.

Bala McAlinn: And one of the children goes off to college and meets the protagonist of the story and invites him to come to the mountain. I won't give away what happens next, but it's bonkers and fascinating and exciting, innovative.

Kelly Molson: Great. Sure. I've never read that either. So I'm going to add that to my list. All right. In terms of customer service, what has been your best ever customer service experience?

Bala McAlinn: So I think in recent times, the one that instantly pops into my mind, is a client. So I will share that but I'll also potentially try to think of another one as well. So it doesn't just seem like I'm doing that.

Bala McAlinn: So some of the greatest customer experience I've received in recent times is at the Macallan Distillery up in Speyside, which is just second to none, it.

Bala McAlinn: When you talk about a five star customer experience, that phrase is used a lot, and people talk about world class customer, visitor, guest, whichever word you want to use, experiences and they are truly nailing it across the board in so many different ways.

Bala McAlinn: So their team are fantastic, they've done a great job of investing in them, making them feel important, supporting them and you can just tell because it's so authentically good.

Bala McAlinn: All the people you interact with truly want to be there, are truly passionate about Macallan and its history and there's so many good stories.

Bala McAlinn: I think one of the last times I was up there, I was given a tour by one of the tour guides and they're in a unique position that not every organisation could do this, but when she was given us the tour, we're in a section that had, it wasn't a museum, but had a case that's like a museum case.

Bala McAlinn: And there was an old hip flask in there. It was lady called Lindsay and she's, I would imagine, 25. So quite young in the world of whiskey. And then that was her grandfather's hip flask.

Bala McAlinn: And she started telling us about how she's third generation on the estate and all this, and you're just pulled in and it was just such a powerful emotive story and such a connection with her.

Bala McAlinn: And she's not unique. When you spend time there and meet other people, there's so many people who have a family connection to the place.

Bala McAlinn: But it isn't just that. There's so many people who have immigrated from other parts of the world to come and work there and are equally as passionate. The whiskey is delicious and their food is sublime.

Kelly Molson: Wow.

Bala McAlinn: They do a incredible tasting meal that the chef Pavel creates and it certainly doesn't stay the same, it's all local ingredients.

Bala McAlinn: A lot of it's come from the Spey on their estate and you'll have fascinating adaptations of trout and salmon and local beef and things all paired with wines and whiskeys and it's truly magnificent.

Kelly Molson: You've sold it. If that isn't the power of storytelling I don't know what is. There's the example that we've all been listening for today.

Kelly Molson: All right. Final icebreaker. I want to know, what is your guilty food pleasure?

Bala McAlinn: Turkish Delight. There you go.

Kelly Molson: Oh, okay.

Bala McAlinn: Yeah, no, I love Turkish Delight. My palette, I've got quite a Victorian palette or something, because I don't like a lot of modern sweets, but I love Turkish Delight. I love marzipan.

Bala McAlinn: So it's really convenient if there's a box of chocolates, because everybody goes in for certain truffles or different ones and the Turkish Delight or the marzipan one is often left till last.

Bala McAlinn: But I'll definitely go for those or in a box of Celebrations, which I don't particularly like, but if I'm going to have one of those, I want the Bounty. I don't want the others.

Kelly Molson: Why has Bounty got such a bad name? It is such a superior chocolate when it comes to Celebrations. I don't understand this. It's delicious.

Bala McAlinn: Coconut's delicious. So I like those ones. But yeah, my real guilty pleasure is burgers. I had a burger last night. I eat too many burgers. It's just the perfect meal.

Kelly Molson: So compact, all in one.

Bala McAlinn: Picking up just a big meat sandwich with lots of cheese, lots of pickles, lots of things in it. Yeah, I'm happy with one of those.

Kelly Molson: Okay. All right. And we're at unpopular opinion time. So what have you got for us?

Bala McAlinn: I suppose my unpopular opinion, I don't really like technology. And a lot of people say that, but I think I genuinely don't.

Bala McAlinn: And obviously I'm aware of how much technology has helped the world in so many ways and why we live longer and we can communicate with people who we wouldn't be able to have connections with if we didn't have technology.

Bala McAlinn: But yeah, I find it annoying. So I don't like computers, I don't like phones. I keep a paper diary and a paper notebook, which everybody who works with me finds incredibly frustrating.

Bala McAlinn: Because I can't share. I can tell them what I'm doing next Tuesday if they ask. But I can't let the counselors see it on a calendar invite.

Bala McAlinn: I struggled getting on this Zoom call today. When you asked me to be on this, I said, "Yeah, but can we do it in person?"

Kelly Molson: I said, "No, that's a real pain in the arse."

Bala McAlinn: There's a huge insult and an indicator that you didn't really want to chat to me. And I was like, "Yeah, there's a lovely sunny day where we could be strolling through some woodland having a chat or doing something," and you could have invited your listeners to come as well, we could have had a picnic.

Kelly Molson: So this will come. I just needed more time to organise it. Oh, it will happen. All right. Okay. Look, we all need technology in our lives but I know that this is quite stressful for you.

Kelly Molson: But thank you. I appreciate that you've you've given this a go today for me. Do you think, now I want to talk about your background a little bit, because we've talked about this before and it is super fascinating how you've gone from being a classically trained actor to working with visitor attractions.

Kelly Molson: So tell us about your background. So tell us how you've gone from being a classically trained actor to running Complete Works?

Bala McAlinn: So yes, so I was an actor, not particularly successfully, but successful enough to do it for five years and pay the bills. Not Hollywood or Royal Shakespeare Company, which is where I wanted to be.

Bala McAlinn: Lots of pantomime and theatre and education. And I did a couple of little bits on TV, which was fun, but nothing significant. So I enjoyed the lifestyle of being an actor and the fun and experience of it.

Bala McAlinn: And then the reality is I met my now wife and she became more important to me than the lifestyle of basically not having to work that much, doing some shows, and getting to lie in the morning, which was great fun in my 20s.

Bala McAlinn: But yes, so decided I needed something with a bit more stability, a bit more of a stable future progression. So yeah, started looking and thinking about what else I might do.

Bala McAlinn: So I decided to become a cartoonist because that's really stable as well and the obvious progression from being an actor. So that was fun. That didn't work out.

Bala McAlinn: But actually it did give me some really good experience because I started a greeting cards company.

Kelly Molson: Oh, wow.

Bala McAlinn: It was called Of Mice and Mice. And it was this mouse in human situations but what it did is it talked to me about sales and starting a business.

Bala McAlinn: Designed the cards and had them made and website and branding and everything, and then sold them on Portobello Market in West London. So had a stall and sold them there, and they sold.

Bala McAlinn: So I was like, "Great, that works." And then had to get them in shops. So I had to go through the process, which was really good for confidence building in terms of being a business person and sales, just having to book appointments, try and convince them to see you then come in and pitch your portfolio and get them to stock and supply you.

Bala McAlinn: And so I did that for a year or so. I got 10 London stockists, which for ages I'd really wanted. It was like 10 London stockists, that's like a landmark.

Bala McAlinn: So I got there and did it and then realised my cards, because they were printed on recyclable material with vegetable ink and recyclable and everything, costs like 50p to make and I could sell them for a pound to a shop. I have 10 shops selling me and I make about £30.

Kelly Molson: Wow. Back to the drawing board.

Bala McAlinn: Didn't give me the lifestyle I crave. But it was a good experience. So then I went back to thinking really about my skill set and what I'd done as an actor and the training I'd had to be an actor.

Bala McAlinn: So I worked freelance for a number of years for a number of companies. So doing shows again and writing shows, but then working with visitor attractions.

Bala McAlinn: So I did projects with the Science Museum and London Zoo, writing shows for them or tweaking the scripts of The Bubble Show and Rocket to Bullet show at science museum and Animal Talks at London Zoo and it was fun and I enjoyed that.

Bala McAlinn: And so started doing more of that and then started a business doing that. My business, which I started in 2012, the original company, which we still do is training.

Bala McAlinn: What we thought that the majority of our training work would be. The animal team, upskilling them to deliver a better gorilla talk or the workshop team, that's in the education team that museums have.

Bala McAlinn: So we did that and we still do some of that, but quite quickly we saw that people were just asking us, "Oh actually, can you apply those skills to the front of house team? Because you're making the animal team better communicators. We want our front of house teams to be better communicators. And ultimately we want them to be better communicators to increase commerciality."

Bala McAlinn: And that's where our business really took off for obvious reasons. If we're working to help people make more money, we get more work.

Bala McAlinn: So focusing on using the skills of performance communication, improvisation, stagecraft in the environments of visitor attractions to upsell membership or increase onsite visitor donations or special exhibitions, is a huge benefit to the organisation and we are skilled and suited to do that.

Bala McAlinn: So we started doing that and then the real unplanned success story of our business is then our staffing agency. So we started the business of training and consultancy, but then whilst I was working at Kew Gardens, this must be I think about 2013.

Bala McAlinn: And I was doing communications training for their membership team and I'd mystery shopped them a few times to see the experience through the eyes of their guests.

Bala McAlinn: And they had some membership promoters at the front, like sitting on stools behind a desk, and it said talk to me about membership. And I was looking at it and they're like, okay. And if people walked up to them, they would tell them about the membership, but there was no proactivity in it at all.

Bala McAlinn: And so I'd put in the report. I was like, "It looks like you've got a real opportunity to increase the membership sales there." Because I was mystery shopping, I presumed, they were Kew staff.

Bala McAlinn: They then told me that actually they were from a promotional agency that they book to promote the membership. And I said, "Well, they don't promote it. There's no proactive sales. It's just reactive. They sell the membership and it's testament to the strength of Kew Gardens offer that without any proactive sales..."

Bala McAlinn: The results were good that. They were getting a decent return on investment from this company, but there was nothing proactive.

Bala McAlinn: So I was like, "Well, actually I know load of actors. Let us have a go and let's see what we can do." So we trialed a summer of doing it and increased the sales exponentially and Kew were really happy.

Bala McAlinn: And we were really happy and said, "Well, great, let us now do that for you." And, yeah, so our staffing agency is actors between roles predominantly working at visitor attractions and predominantly doing commercial tasks like membership sales or visitor donations.

Bala McAlinn: And it's such a great model. Obviously it was my idea, but I didn't really take credit for it. It was like one of these lovely, accidental things where we saw it, we tried it, but the model worked so well.

Bala McAlinn: And we love in the company, myself and my employers, supporting actors because a bunch of us are ex actors in my company so we like having that connection and supporting them.

Bala McAlinn: And then the actors, we also like that we support actors and we do it by supporting the arts, which is a lovely little circle of artists supporting the arts in their job to pay the bills.

Bala McAlinn: And because we're ex actors, we've managed to create an agency that works really well for our actors. We are only as good as our people on the staff and business.

Bala McAlinn: And there are lots of promotional agencies and staffing agencies out there but we are quite niche and we are very good for our people, which makes them very good for us.

Bala McAlinn: Because know the trials and tribulations of being an actor, whether it's London, Edinburgh, wherever, it's a tough job and you need to pay your rent and you need flexibility.

Bala McAlinn: So we give our staff 100% flexibility so they aren't committed to a job if they get an audition or acting. Whereas if they're working in a bar or working somewhere else, regularly they say, "Oh, I've got an audition tomorrow." And regularly they're told, "Well, if you don't come tomorrow, you're going to lose your job."

Bala McAlinn: So then they either turn up to work because they need that job, but then they're in a bad mood so they're not going to deliver great experiences or service for whatever they're doing or they just don't come or mysteriously, their grandmother gets sick or something.

Bala McAlinn: So we know this can happen. Just give us as much notice as you can, but if you're not working just tell us, which means we have to restaff all the time, but it means that our staff are happy to be there.

Bala McAlinn: And then appreciative that we give them that flexibility and we pay them well. It's a premium product and rightly so. We don't do any commission, which lots of our clients always ask, lots of other agencies do.

Bala McAlinn: When I was an actor I did loads of sales jobs, telesales and charity fundraising and all sorts. And it was often commission based. And it's again, it's your highs and lows.

Bala McAlinn: So if it's a sunny day and you are doing charity fundraising or membership at a visitor attraction, which is I didn't do myself then yeah, you're going to sell loads and it's fantastic. But if it's a rainy day, you are not.

Bala McAlinn: And my experience of seeing people do it in other agencies and businesses when I did it was then on the rainy days nobody tries because everybody knows, "Oh, we're just going to get our per deal or something. We're not going to hit commission."

Bala McAlinn: So everybody just sits back because there's no point. Whereas for us, we charge fair, we pay fair and our team appreciate that and the attraction can budget accordingly. It's not in terms of our billing, as can the staff.

Bala McAlinn: And they know I will be able to pay my rent if I do those shifts or it might be that one might and that one not, and that emotional journey, we want them to be happy that they're there with the flexibility.

Bala McAlinn: We want them to be happy that they're being paid well and then we pay them quickly as well, which lot of agencies don't because they're freelancers and they're used to being paid six weeks, two months after putting in an invoice.

Bala McAlinn: So we pay our freelancers every other Friday. Used to be every Friday pre pandemic. We dropped it to every other Friday since the pandemic, but that's still much better than a lot of companies.

Bala McAlinn: It means we are often in effect running a bank for our staff because our clients don't pay separate, we're not chasing invoices two months, three months, six months down the line.

Bala McAlinn: But we get the results that we do with our staff because they are happy, well paid, have flexibility and know they're going to get paid next Friday.

Kelly Molson: This is wonderful. Who have created an organisation or create a business that can deliver so brilliantly for both of the sectors, for both the actors that work for you and the attractions that you work for, that's a huge achievement. Something to be immensely proud about.

Kelly Molson: I loved some of the things that you talked about there because I've had this conversation before. I think it was actually with Carly Straughan and a mutual friend of ours about visitor experience and attractions.

Kelly Molson: And about how it does attract a lot of people from the theatrical world because you are on show, aren't you? When somebody comes to your attraction, you want that experience to be the best it possibly can be for them.

Kelly Molson: And so essentially you are performing for them to make that happen. So it's amazing that you can bring people in that have that background to be able to do it.

Kelly Molson: What I find fascinating is that you would never know either. So if I came along to the attraction, if I spoke to the membership people or I spoke to the donations people, whoever it is, I wouldn't know that those people didn't work there. You integrate them so seamlessly in that organisation that you would just think that they were there every single day.

Bala McAlinn: Absolutely. And that's what we always tell our clients as well with the staffing offer that we do, we want them in the same uniforms as the rest of the team.

Bala McAlinn: We don't want them to look like a promotional team or this is the special team that does something different because for the visitor experience, and this is something you see regularly where obviously in a large organisation there's lots of departments, lots of roles and responsibilities, but to the visitor, anyone wearing a badge or a lanyard or a green fleece or whatever it is, represents the organisation.

Bala McAlinn: The visitor will just go to the most convenient person to ask a question or a query. And you do sometimes see in an organisation that isn't delivering great experiences that people work in silos and, "Oh no, that's not my department. You need to speak to someone else."

Bala McAlinn: And people hate getting passed around. They just want to deal with the person there and get whatever service it is that they need at that time.

Bala McAlinn: So for our guys, we want them in the uniforms so that they integrate also because we are doing sales and we want to do it in a somewhat sneaky way.

Bala McAlinn: Because, and it's not malicious by any means, but it's that experience of if you're walking down a high street and you clock someone up ahead with a clipboard or an iPad smiling at you and trying to make eye contact.

Kelly Molson: Run.

Bala McAlinn: Can I cross it? I'm going to brave this fast moving traffic to get to the other side of the street to avoid this person who's going to either ask me questions on a survey or try and sell me something or get me to sign up something.

Bala McAlinn: And that's a natural reaction that we have. So for our teams, we want them integrated and then we always lead with service. We never come straight in with sales because it's off putting. It can be jarring.

Bala McAlinn: Wherever you are in the attraction, whether it's entrance, exit or mid experience, if you're suddenly interrupted with sales, it can take you aback. So our team are always trained and we have different processes at different sites, different organisations.

Kelly Molson: Can we share an example of this? Because this was one of my questions about what we're talking about, because there's two very distinct trains here of what you do, but they intertwine, don't they?

Kelly Molson: So it's very much about storytelling for sales, but also visitor experience as well. And this is the bit where they cross over.

Kelly Molson: You've got some absolutely incredible case studies on your website about the results that you delivered. I've got here increased donations at the National Gallery by between 300 and 400%. That's phenomenal.

Bala McAlinn: Yeah.

Kelly Molson: How do you do that? How do you lead with the experience? What do you teach people to do?

Bala McAlinn: Yeah, so that one specifically was all about improving the welcome experience at the National Gallery, which led to those results. So that was a great project.

Bala McAlinn: Yeah. So that started 2016, 2017, something like that. So originally we won a tender to do a research trial and the National Gallery was great.

Bala McAlinn: Because often we'll do a project like this and we just get given a week or a day even and it's hard to really work everything out in such a period of time.

Bala McAlinn: But here we had four months and the tender was put out to see if you could increase onsite visitor donations with a team who self-funded themselves through increased donations, made additional income on top and did not affect the visitor experience.

Bala McAlinn: The National Gallery, the director Gabriele, was absolutely resolute that he didn't want suddenly the experience to be altered. And everybody felt that they're being shaken down for cash as they came through one of the entrances.

Bala McAlinn: And then in that tender, we won the tender, and then we were given six questions to answer over a four month period. It'll be, who will donate? Where will they donate? What other commerciality can you connect with donations? Times? Et cetera, et cetera.

Bala McAlinn: But yeah, so we had four months. So we had four people, seven days a week for four months, with a tablet literally velcro'd to their patent and we'd change the patent every two weeks.

Bala McAlinn: So we'd do something for two weeks, look at the data, record it and then tweak it and change it. So we'd try different scripts, different ask, different locations. And after every interaction they'd record on the tablet.

Bala McAlinn: We split the visitors into I think, six different broad demographics. So they'd click the type of visitor, whether they donated, if they did donate the amount, and where they were and what time.

Bala McAlinn: And we had something like, I can't remember exactly, 140,000 interactions over the period of time. So it was a huge amount of data. So we had the time and opportunity to get it incredibly slick.

Bala McAlinn: And we found that there were really surprising, subtle changes and differences that would have dramatic effect on income. The positioning of boxes, the relationship of the positioning of boxes to where security is, or ticket desks or experiences again has dramatic effect. Security in particular. So it was fascinating.

Bala McAlinn: So obviously National Gallery's on Trafalgar Square so you absolutely need security, absolutely need that. But the security does affect the visitor experience.

Bala McAlinn: Because you're coming into an exquisite, arguably the world's greatest collection of art, and you're going through airport style, beepy things, having bags searched, which it's necessary, but it's not a pleasant visitor experience to have that.

Bala McAlinn: So if that is happening and then immediately after that you have a welcome led donation ask, you'll get some, but you won't get as many as if you don't have that.

Bala McAlinn: You can still have that, but simply by distancing it from that and distancing it can literally be a few meters and a door. So we moved security from inside the entrance to outside the entrance.

Bala McAlinn: And the security guards, they're a bit like, "You can wear a coat, it's all right." We weren't always popular with the things that we did.

Bala McAlinn: But yeah, by putting the security outside of the building, at both Portico and Sainsbury entrances that they're covered. So you could put the security there, people are searched, they then walk through the doors and it's like-

Kelly Molson: That's the start, yes.

Bala McAlinn: So they then disassociate. They then walk in and then they see a friendly, welcoming person who welcomes them to the National Gallery.

Bala McAlinn: And, oh, they've now forgotten about the bag searching, forgotten that they had to shove their keys back in a bag or whatever it is.

Bala McAlinn: They're now in the building, there's an instant release of tension from that and then they meet a friendly, welcoming person and their propensity to donate instantly increases.

Bala McAlinn: And the training for the team there was relatively straightforward. We had 17 frequently asked questions that in such a high percentage can create a great, welcome experience.

Bala McAlinn: Most people it's the Sunflowers, Whistlejacket, where's the cafe? Where's the toilet? What time do you close? That level of information can create a brilliant welcoming experience for most people.

Bala McAlinn: Of course, there's occasionally somebody looking for a very particular more obscure work of art and that's different. And the team will then have to go to the very efficient in-house team who has a broader knowledge of the collection,.

Bala McAlinn: But simply by welcoming people, answering a frequently asked question or two, and then informing people that the National Gallery is a charity and if you can donate, please do, donations skyrocketed.

Bala McAlinn: And we kept it consistently between three to 400% for three years. So after the four month tender, we then won a two year contract to do it.

Bala McAlinn: Well, there was an extension up to a year then we won a two year contract after that to do it. We kept it for three years at that level.

Kelly Molson: That is phenomenal, that's phenomenal, isn't it? Because now it's not just about the visitor experience, not just about sales training, it's about location, it's about understanding how your guests enter your attraction. There's so much involved in it. That's fascinating

Bala McAlinn: It's core to what we do and our background. And we predominantly look at three things, which are from the world of theatre, and that's storytelling, stagecraft, and improvisation.

Bala McAlinn: Storytelling being your communications, the words you're delivering, but not just verbally with your mouth, but with your body and your tone and voice.

Bala McAlinn: And we want whatever you are communicating for it to be articulate and for it to not just be heard, but to be understood.

Bala McAlinn: So we look at the nuances of that, and little changes of script can have big differences in a donation ask or in a membership pitch.

Bala McAlinn: And then, yeah, we look at stagecraft and if you are producing a play, of course, you have a tech rehearsal or several tech rehearsals.

Bala McAlinn: And you block the play so that everybody knows exactly where they're going to be standing so that the technical team and the lighting designer plans it so that they make sure that if it's a touchy moment in the play or dramatic point that the lights are just right, and the audience can not only hear the words, but they can see what they're supposed to see.

Bala McAlinn: And we look at that in the environments of visitor attractions, looking at where donation boxes are placed, membership asked, are they front and centre? Should they be?

Bala McAlinn: And we'll often see them tucked away in dusty corners and people say, "Oh, nobody really ever donates." It's like, "Well, yeah, because so many people don't notice it or there's nobody interacting with it."

Bala McAlinn: So we look at the stagecraft and then we look at improvisation because no two days are the same in a visitor attraction. And the ability to be able to think and adapt quickly on your feet is an incredibly useful skill.

Bala McAlinn: And then match with that improvisation, that there's a principle, the yes and principle. When you are doing a scene, you don't block the scene, you don't simply say no, because if you do, it ends the scene.

Bala McAlinn: So if I was doing the scene with you and you walked in and said, "Oh, hi, I've got a delivery. Are you John?" If I just say, "No." The scene ends.

Bala McAlinn: Where I need to say, "Yes, I'm John. I've been waiting for my delivery. Please give it." So yes and drives the action forward. And we want that mindset within a visitor attraction as well.

Bala McAlinn: We can't always say yes to every request, but we can offer an alternative. We can improvise. So somebody wants this X, if we know they can't have it, if we just say, "Oh, I want this." "No, you can't have it." Bad visitor experience.

Bala McAlinn: But if I go, "Oh, wow, it's great you want that. However, I've got Y and I think you're really going to like this." Then we've driven the action forward, so yeah.

Kelly Molson: I love this. Just going back to what you were talking about with Macallan right at the beginning where you talked about Lindsay and her story.

Kelly Molson: Obviously she has a personal connection to the site, that was her grandfather's hip flask. She could talk about it very emotively. But how easy is it to train someone to be a good storyteller?

Bala McAlinn: Everybody within reason and physical and cognitive abilities can improve their storytelling, certainly. And in the vast majority of cases, virtually everybody I meet and work with is a good storyteller.

Bala McAlinn: They are just often not confident at storytelling so can't necessarily do it in a public environment. But you guarantee that when they are at home with their buddy or their family member, they've been telling stories for years.

Bala McAlinn: In the vast majority of cases, there are of course exceptions to every rule, but often it's a fear of presenting or public speaking or interacting with people.

Bala McAlinn: There was a study in the Washington Post, it was a year or two ago, of the most common fears in the United States and the third most common fear was snakes. The second most common fear was heights. And the number one most common fear in the United States of America was public speaking.

Bala McAlinn: And there will be a correlation with the UK as well there. So I often tell people who aren't confident public speakers that that's pretty much the most normal thing to be, the most number one common fear.

Bala McAlinn: So that's often in terms of delivering a briefing to a team of staff, or delivering a pitch to a board or conference speaking or something like that. Often lots of people have reticence to do that.

Bala McAlinn: But storytelling in the environments of a visitor attraction is the same, this is public speaking and having the confidence to approach a family next to a work of art who are looking slightly confused and tell them the history of that takes confidence.

Bala McAlinn: So to become a good storyteller, there's lots of tips and tricks. As when you go to drama school and when you become an actor in the rehearsal room, you learn lots of nuances of body, breath and voice, and that's great. Absolutely.

Bala McAlinn: And that takes you to a higher level of technical ability in storytelling, but by far and above the most important thing is gaining experience more than the technique and it's gaining experience so that you become confident.

Bala McAlinn: And what I say is experience leads to confidence and confidence leads to good practice. It's not about being a confident person, the most confident person in the world if you give them a task that they're inexperienced at, they may confidently give it a go, but they'll fail at it.

Bala McAlinn: So whatever it is, whether it's public speaking, whether it's small interactions with a visitor, whatever it is, whatever task it is, you need to build experience.

Bala McAlinn: And that takes time. So you just have to apply yourself to the task and repeat it and repeat it until there's a point that, "Oh, I've built confidence because of the experience I have."

Bala McAlinn: Once I'm confident at the task, then that's when you start adding a bit of vocal technique or body language, more interaction, more humour, because you're now at a confident place where you can play around with it and get to that point of good practice.

Bala McAlinn: Then that's fun, that's fun. It takes a while to get there but being at a place of good practice is joyful. And it's not just storytelling and public speaking.

Bala McAlinn: We all do it in our jobs. A new job takes a while. A new job on a till, you don't know how it works, all the buttons, and you might be learnt quite quickly, but you're inexperienced for a while.

Bala McAlinn: Until click, "Oh, I'm confident at it." Now I can run the products through the till whilst having a conversation with the visitor. For a while, I'm having to look at the till and do this and I can't.

Bala McAlinn: Once I'm on the till at the place of good practice, I'm now asking that person how their day is and what did they say, noticing the kid. "Did you see the giraffe? That's great. He's called Henry." So I'm now adding to the experience, but because I'm at a place of good practice.

Bala McAlinn: With storytelling, that place of good practice allows you to adapt and change for your audience. If you're having to think about your content and your technique, you are not fully in the moment and connected to your words.

Bala McAlinn: If you've got to a place with good practice where I can deliver this animal talk, I can deliver this membership pitch, I can deliver whatever it is because I've done it so many times that I now don't need to really think about it like a person on the till.

Bala McAlinn: I can be live, present in the moment, and listen and react. So because I'm not having to think about it, I notice that I start losing the attention of somebody who I'm presenting to.

Bala McAlinn: And if I notice that I can probably get their attention back by changing the pitch of my voice or the volume or becoming very serious if I'm being jovial or becoming very jovial if I'm being serious.

Bala McAlinn: A juxtaposition or a change brings the attention back. Or if I'm engaged in sales and I'm really confident what I'm delivering, I'll start noticing the bits of the pitch where there's a little flicker in the eye and I go, "Okay, they're interested in that benefit."

Bala McAlinn: So I'll talk more about that benefit. Because if I'm not live in the moment, I'm just listing benefits and not really noticing what's good for them or not good for them.

Bala McAlinn: So yeah, so to improve storytelling techniques, first and foremost it's just building experience. And you do it in safe environments, you do it with your friends, do it with your family, do it at work.

Bala McAlinn: But you have to step out of your comfort zone a bit. You have to push yourself forward to learn and we can all become better storytellers.

Bala McAlinn: I do it for a job and have done for a long time, but I certainly am not the best in the world and I'm certainly not the best that I can be.

Bala McAlinn: And I certainly hope that, may have been doing it for 20 years, but I certainly hope in 20 more years I will be as much better then from where I am now 20 years.

Bala McAlinn: It's a constant journey. It's a constant development. And to develop you need to just push yourself a bit further to the point where I am now a bit inexperienced and then do it, do it, do it until, "Oh. Now I'm confident and now I've grown and I'm better."

Kelly Molson: And that's where the magic happens.

Bala McAlinn: Yeah.

Kelly Molson: Brilliant. Thank you. Absolutely excellent tips today that I'm sure our listeners are going to love. Just before we wrap up, I really want to ask you, how would an attraction recognise that they needed to get in touch with you?

Kelly Molson: What's the pain points for them? We've talked a lot about donations side and driving membership. What's that trigger where they would need to think about calling you guys in?

Bala McAlinn: So our core products are training and staffing. Some organisations we do one of those things, some we do both. So the training is we come in and deliver storytelling workshops, visitor experience workshops, or sales workshops for the in-house teams to build their confidence, build their experience at those tasks.

Bala McAlinn: The staffing is where we simply come in and do it with our own people. Often we do both. I love combining the two on a project where if somebody wants to increase commerciality and wants their team to improve on it, for us to be the best we can be in the workshop, we need to experience it first.

Bala McAlinn: So before a training workshop, we'll come and do some benchmarking where somebody will get in touch, say, "We want," whoever it is, "This department to sell more memberships."

Bala McAlinn: We go, "Great. Can we come for a week and sell your memberships?" Then we'll come. We'll mystery shop it, look at everything, see if we recommend making a few tweaks in the stage craft.

Bala McAlinn: Then we'll put some of our actors in uniforms in position for a week or two and sell the memberships because then we can say, "Okay, definitively we know on a Saturday you should be targeting X memberships. On a rainy Tuesday you should be targeting Y and it's achievable because we've just done it."

Bala McAlinn: "And whilst we were doing it, we noticed that this little phrase or this benefit in the offer, that was the tipping point for so many people."

Bala McAlinn: So then in the training room where we are training their staff then and we'll be using body language vocal techniques and getting their confidence to interact more with visitors.

Bala McAlinn: But if we can then put in specific lines, specific little bits of script, that this little group of words had a great effect for anyone with kids. Oh, the retired couples mentioned that and then that's really useful for them.

Bala McAlinn: We like scripts. We don't like anybody ever appearing to be delivering a script because that is the worst type, well, wouldn't say the worst side, it's an awful type of visitor experience.

Bala McAlinn: And we've all experienced where you talk to someone and you know they're just saying something that they've been told to say and they've said it a thousand times today.

Bala McAlinn: I use the analogy often of a good actor and a bad actor. We've all seen both probably. And the bad actor often appears to be not proficient at their work because they're not in the moment.

Bala McAlinn: They're not connected to it because they're thinking about the words they're saying next or thinking about the action in the performance that's about to happen.

Bala McAlinn: So suddenly the tone of voice goes a little monotone. Their eyes may come up because I'm not actually thinking about these words, I'm thinking that I need to go open that door because there's another character and you see them come out.

Bala McAlinn: Whereas the actor who is the good actor can be delivering Shakespeare, 500 year old words that have been said millions of times, but we've hopefully all seen Shakespeare where it genuinely appears like these words have been said for the first time.

Bala McAlinn: And it's emotive and beautiful and powerful and we know they're not, but because the actor's living and breathing that character, they're fully in the moment.

Bala McAlinn: Whereas we want that in a visitor attraction. There will be a most likely route to commerciality, whether it's an exhibition ticket, a membership sale, a visitor donation, and then that will change for different audience groups.

Bala McAlinn: But okay, you see the family, most likely benefits that appeal to them. You see the overseas visitor, most likely script that appeals to them.

Bala McAlinn: So we want the team to know those, have learnt them. We don't want to turn a team into robots saying things but we want them to be at that point of good practice, where they're live in the moment, interacting, having fun.

Bala McAlinn: But then there's the moment and suddenly they say something scripted. Like, "You must come to the Botanic Gardens in the fall. It's my favourite time of year. And with the membership, you can come back then too."

Bala McAlinn: So it's just suddenly like a scripted line. It doesn't seem like it's scripted, but actually they've said it a lot. But because they've said it so many times and they've seen the benefit.

Bala McAlinn: That oh yeah, mention autumn or mention snowfall at Christmas, say something emotive that you use storytelling to put the person you're selling to in the story, "You must come back in February, it's orchid season and you can walk through the glass houses and see these flowers in bloom."

Bala McAlinn: And suddenly that person, because you've said, "You must come back," and you're using descriptive language, sees themselves walking through orchids in February and suddenly their propensity to buy a membership goes up because it's not February and they want to come back and they can take the price of their ticket off.

Bala McAlinn: To absolutely improvise every single time for the visitor in front of you is a difficult task. Orchids, that's probably going to work at Kew Gardens because it's a growth thing.

Bala McAlinn: Jousting, that's going to work at Historic Environment Scotland. It was jousting weekend last weekend. So we've been telling people about that. That was at Linlithgow Castle.

Bala McAlinn: But we're telling people about it at Stirling Castle and Edinburgh Castle because they're there, buy the membership, you can go see the jousting. "Imagine being there and seeing..."

Bala McAlinn: Suddenly you put someone in a store and then they get their propensity to buy whatever the product is.

Kelly Molson: Oh you are good, you're good. I want to go jousting. I want to walk through the orchids. I want to be there in fall. That's the story, isn't it? That's the power of the story.

Bala McAlinn: Excellent.

Kelly Molson: All right. We're coming to the end of the podcast. I always ask our guests to recommend a book that they love to our listeners. It might be something professional, it might be something personal. What have you got for us today?

Bala McAlinn: Cool. Okay. I've got a couple with an admission as well, which is a sad, sad truth about myself, I used to be an avid reader and used to read lots of books.

Bala McAlinn: And I started my business 10 years ago and had two more children during that time as well. And for the past eight years or so I've become somebody who starts books and then never finishes them.

Bala McAlinn: And George, one of the key guys I work with, George Mclean, always says, "If you talk about tiredness, it becomes a competition." "Oh, I'm really tired to that." "Oh yeah, I'm really tired." "Oh yeah, my kid woke me up at five." "Yeah, my kid was up at 2:00 AM."

Bala McAlinn: And it's just this and the more you talk about tiredness, the more tired you become. But the reality is running a business, having kids, I've been exhausted for the last decade.

Bala McAlinn: Try and read a book and just fall asleep. However, I do occasionally manage one. So there was a great book I read recently and actually did manage to finish called Get in Trouble by Kelly Link.

Bala McAlinn: They're short stories. Maybe they're novelettes, their length, they're 100 page stories as opposed to full novels and in a exciting, surreal sci-fi type environment, which I very much enjoyed.

Bala McAlinn: And I've bought a new book this week, which I haven't read, so it could be awful.

Kelly Molson: It could be good. Who knows?

Bala McAlinn: Hopefully. And it's more connected to visitor attraction industry. So there's a guy called Nick Gray who had a company called Museum Hack.

Bala McAlinn: I met him at a conference, the Blooloop conference, in Liverpool a number of years ago. Great guy. Museum Hack was awesome. So it still exists, but he sold it.

Bala McAlinn: So Museum Hack is an awesome company who does, primarily in America, tours and museums, but focusing on sex, death, value. So focusing on the idea everybody really wants to know how much that's worth.

Bala McAlinn: And then things like people only have an attention span of a certain amount of time. And a lot of people I'd imagine will hate the sound of this, but it ticks boxes for me and they get rave reviews.

Bala McAlinn: So they'll be delivering the tour in The Met or wherever and then after half an hour, they'll stop and all do a little bit of yoga because it then reconnects you and your attention span can come back.

Bala McAlinn: And they are these super fun companies-

Kelly Molson: I love that.

Bala McAlinn: Great guy. Really interesting. And yes, so I met him there. We linked, I don't really know, but we linked on LinkedIn an occasionally like each other's post and things like that. He's just released a book called The 2-Hour Cocktail Party, which has just come out.

Kelly Molson: Ah, I saw this. I saw this. I didn't know it was him. This looks great.

Bala McAlinn: So I haven't read it, but I do know quite a lot about it because he's been talking about this for several years and so he hosts cocktail parties.

Bala McAlinn: So he was in New York for a long time. He's now been moving around. I think he lives in Austin now. But yeah, so he used cocktail parties as ways to meet people.

Bala McAlinn: And sometimes for business purposes, but also just to make new mates in a new town or a city. And so it's a easy to follow manual of how to produce a simple, effective cocktail party.

Kelly Molson: Oh, wow.

Bala McAlinn: Simple, lovely idea. So I bought it this week, but I'm looking forward to reading at least the first few chapters before then I fall asleep and it gets put-

Kelly Molson: All right, well look listeners. As ever, you can win these books. So if you go over to our Twitter account and you retweet this episode announcement with the words, "I want Bala's book," you could be in with a chance winning that.

Kelly Molson: I am going to buy this book and then what we can do is have a competition about who's read the least of it because they're the tiredest.

Bala McAlinn: And then we can have a cocktail party, which is much more fun.

Kelly Molson: In real life, without any technology.

Bala McAlinn: Exactly.

Kelly Molson: And that's perfect. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast today, Bala. It's been lovely to talk to you. Thank you for all of the tips that you've shared.

Kelly Molson: We will put all of Bala's contact details in the show note. So if you need some sales training or if you need some help with your visitor experience, you'll know exactly where to go. Thanks for joining us.

Bala McAlinn: Thanks a lot. Take care.

Kelly Molson: Thanks for listening to Skip The Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us.

And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned. Skip The Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website, rubbercheese.com/podcast.

Download The Visitor Attractions Website Survey Report - https://www.merac.co.uk/download-the-visitor-attractions-survey

We have launched our brand-new playbook: ‘The Retail Ready Guide to Going Beyond the Gift Shop’ — your go-to resource for building a successful e-commerce strategy that connects with your audience and drives sustainable growth.

Download your FREE copy here

Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is  Kelly Molson, MD of Rubber Cheese.

Download our free ebook The Ultimate Guide to Doubling Your Visitor Numbers

If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website rubbercheese.com/podcast.

If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this podcast

Competition ends October 1st 2022. The winner will be contacted via Twitter.

Show references:

https://www.hrp.org.uk/

https://www.hrp.org.uk/tower-of-london

https://www.linkedin.com/in/cate-milton-585a8613/

https://superbloom.hrp.org.uk/content/ticket-options

Transcriptions:

Kelly Molson: Welcome to Skip the Queue, a podcast for people working in or working with visitor attractions. I'm your host, Kelly Molson. Each episode, I speak with industry experts from the attractions world.

In today's episode, I speak with Cate Milton, Customer Experience Programme Officer at Historic Royal Palaces. Cate shares her infectious passion for customer experience and talks us through the six-month customer journey mapping exercise they carried out with KPMG. 

If you like what you hear, subscribe on all the user channels by searching Skip the Queue.

Kelly Molson: Cate, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. I'm really excited to speak to you.

Cate Milton: Thank you so much. I'm really just as excited to speak about anything that's customer experience. So I'm excited.

Kelly Molson: It's going to be a good chat, then. But first of all, I have to ask you some icebreaker questions, so we don't get to chat about customer experience quite yet. I'm going to ask you what your favourite breakfast food is.

Cate Milton: Oh my God, that's a curve ball. I don't really do breakfast.

Kelly Molson: Oh.

Cate Milton: I get up in the morning and I feel it's way too early for my stomach to be dealing with anything like food, so I think if I'm being good, then it's usually a yogurt or some raisins. That makes me sound a lot healthier than I am.

Kelly Molson: My goodness, doesn't it?

Cate Milton: I mean, today it was a blueberry muffin, so it pretty much depends what's nearby. Yesterday, it was Cheeselets. So yeah, I hope my mum doesn't listen. Her main fear of me is that I'm not eating properly, and I just proved her correct there on breakfast.

Kelly Molson: Oh yeah, well, listen to this though. Although, I would say that Cheeselets are an extremely tasty breakfast, so why not?

Cate Milton: Honestly, I'm addicted, and now they're coming out in the picnic boxes and every time this year my entire family's like, "Find them. Stock up." Find them for me. But yeah, it's maybe not the most nutritious start to the day, but there we go.

Kelly Molson: All right. Cheeselets or yogurt and raisins.

Cate Milton: Yeah, not all together. Not all together, just-

Kelly Molson: A balanced breakfast. Okay. What show on Netflix did you binge-watch embarrassingly fast? 

Cate Milton: Oh, that's a good question. So, my absolute favourite one... I got obsessed with it during lockdown like everybody else did when there was nothing else to do... was Mindhunter. So, it's kind of about the beginning of the FBI. So, anything with that kind of psychological twist. I mean, I am the cliche millennial in the true crime and I'm there like, "Oh, what's wrong with all these people?" But, Mindhunter was so good. I think they only did a couple of series and they keep kind of promising maybe a third, but nothing yet. But yeah, I did that in about two or three days... But there was nothing else to do. Everyone go watch it. Maybe if everyone watches it, then maybe they will make a third series. But yeah, the beginning of the FBI and all that kind of profiling and where all that came from.

Kelly Molson: This is on my list, because I like a little true crime-

Cate Milton: Oh, amazing.

Kelly Molson: ... series as well. So that is on our list to watch, so I'm really glad that you recommended that, because I wasn't quite sure.

Cate Milton: So good. And Jonathan Groff is in it, because he also plays the King in Hamilton. So it's really strange seeing him do this. I think he's known for musical theatre a bit more, and then in this kind of really straight role about kind of creating that psychological profiling of kind of the worst that humanity has to offer, yeah, he's amazing. But yes, watch it, put it to the top of your list. Definitely.

Kelly Molson: I will do that. Third and final icebreaker question: if money and time were no object, what would you be doing right now?

Cate Milton: Traveling, 100%. But that's misleading. I'm not ever going to pretend I'm the kind of traveler with a rucksack. I need something on wheels, so I would be going places with the suitcases, not having to worry about what the cheapest airport transfer is, how to get places. I would be having a lovely time. I'd never see winter again, definitely. I'm not a winter person. I'm loving the sun. So yeah, from a very selfish point of view, rather than trying to fix the rest of the world, I would be just following the sun all year round, having a lovely time.

Kelly Molson: That's fine. It's your money, it's your time, you do whatever you want with it.

Cate Milton: I would also donate to charity and save the whales.

Kelly Molson: Saved it. Now that was a classic millennial answer.

Cate Milton: Okay, yeah.

Kelly Molson: All right, Cate, what is your unpopular opinion? What have you got for us?

Cate Milton: I feel like this is quite unpopular. I'm also a little bit worried that if I say it that anyone listening straight away going to be like, "Well, she has no idea what she's talking about, so I'm not going to listen to the rest of this."

Kelly Molson: Don't worry. Honestly, there's been some real shockers on here. You'll be good.

Cate Milton: So, my unpopular opinion is that I think that tea, coffee, and alcohol are the most disgusting things on the planet. I do not understand how so much of this country is powered by one of those three things. I can't stand the taste of any of them, so I have lived my life without any of them. Maybe it's more I've got the taste palette of a child, although there's also a possibility I'm a super taster, so I'm just very sensitive and that's probably a superpower. So actually, it's all you guys that are wrong. I've just evolved out of the universe.

Kelly Molson: I love this, but this is how you look so fresh-faced as well, because you don't drink the coffee-

Cate Milton: Well, I don't know.

Kelly Molson: ... and you don't drink the alcohol. So we are in the wrong.

Cate Milton: It helps more in the money point of view, I'm not going to lie. That definitely makes a night out cheaper, but no, any fresh-facedness is down to my very complex skincare regime that I developed over the lockdown, so that's where all the money goes instead.

Kelly Molson: Okay. Not enough care days. Right, listeners, tell us how you feel about Cate's unpopular opinion. Yeah, it's an interesting one. My husband's actually teetotal at the moment. He's just gone off the alcohol. Just doesn't like the effects that it leaves him with. It really affects his mood. So yeah, he's just cut it out and it's quite liberating really, isn't it?

Cate Milton: Honestly, too, I've had it all the way through, so it made uni quite difficult because as soon as anyone will meet you the first question you're having to answer is, "Why don't you drink?" But definitely in the last kind of five years or so it's not a question I get so much anymore. It's just say, "Oh, okay then." So, I think there is a general trend in people... for whatever reason. There's a whole range of reasons, like trying not to drink for a little while or deciding they don't want that in their lives anymore. It's a lot more common. So, I don't have to answer that question so often because the next bit was always, "It's okay. I've got something that you'll love."

Kelly Molson: But it shouldn't be a question, should it? It's just, "I don't drink." Okay.

Cate Milton: How it is. I can just about manage the super sweet, if it's really sweet. So just a lot of sugar, then I can just about nurse one cocktail for about... But it will take me six hours or so to drink it. It's not something that I enjoy and it goes down nice and smooth. So yeah, unless somebody's bought it for me because they're being nice, it's not something that I partake in most of the time.

Kelly Molson: Then there's the guilt of having to drink it, I guess.

Cate Milton: Yeah, exactly. I'm just there sipping like, "Yeah, no, I don't need another one. This is really nice. Thank you."

Kelly Molson: Okay. Right, tell us how you feel. I don't think that's too unpopular at all, Cate. Cate, you are the Customer Experience Programme Officer at Historic Royal Palaces.

Cate Milton: Yes.

Kelly Molson: I want to know about this role. Tell us what it involves because I'm guessing very broad.

Cate Milton: Yes, you could say that. So, yeah. So I work for Historical Palaces. I actually work across all six sites. So, I'm based at the Tower. The Tower is my home and I've got the most experience in the Tower, because I originally started in Heritage, in Operations at the Tower of London. But now yeah, I work across the Tower, Kensington Palace, Hampton Court, Banqueting House, Kew Palace, and as well as Hillsborough Castle over in Northern Ireland. So yeah, I'm kind of there looking across customer experience and initiatives across those sites, trying to make sure that we've kind of got that one standard for HRP and what customer experience means, customer service means from an HRP point of view.

Cate Milton: So yeah, it is quite broad. It's anything from kind of creating our customer service standard that I did with colleagues in Operations, goodness, two years ago now, I think, just before we reopened from the first lockdown, right up to more strategic things about where we need to aim for, where we need to focus our attention, having a look at a lot of customer journeys and understanding the end-to-end journey for all our sites.

Cate Milton: I am the only one in my department. I am a department all by myself, so there's a lot of advocating for what customer journeys mean and joining up bits of the organisation. Not entirely by myself: I have the support of my visitor experience group, which is our operations directors, our public engagement, director and our commercial director, and all the op scenes across the site, too. I think in Operations you know how complex the journey is, you see the whole thing. So I think they're the teams I work most closely with; as well as overseeing things that are related to visitor feedback.

Cate Milton: So, there's so much data. We have so much information on our visitors and what they think, what they feel, what their expectations are. So there's a little kind of work with our customer insight manager about how we best collate that, use it, spot the trends. So yeah, and also I just get deployed, really, to any kind projects that might need... Yeah, I suppose a little focus on customer experience, and I pipe up with annoying things like, "That's not customer journey-"

Kelly Molson: Not thought about this.

Cate Milton: "... So can we not do that." Yeah. I'm so lucky I get to get involved in basically anything that needs that kind of customer focus, which, in a visitor attraction, is nearly everything. So, it's an amazing role and, yeah, in a great place.

Kelly Molson: What a job. What a job.

Cate Milton: I landed on my finger this one. It's not too bad.

Kelly Molson: Well, I mean, firstly: they are not terrible places to go to work every day, are they? I mean, what a place.

Cate Milton: It ruins you for life though, because if anyone says to me now that you have to go to work in an old office block, it's very much, "Yeah, so where's the armed guard outside the office door? How many draw bridges do I have to go over? How many portcullises are there to go under? None? Okay, no. Well that's boring, isn't it?"

Kelly Molson: It's not for me, then.

Cate Milton: Exactly. Like it's, I say, "I'm sorry. I'm a palace-only person these days." But no, honestly, it's absolutely stunning. And actually, the previous governor who worked here, who kind of gave my first chance at the tower... So he's been very much a mentor to me, but I always remember him saying that, "If you ever come to work one day and you're not just awed by where you are, then it's time to leave and let somebody else come in, because you should just never forget the sites you're working at and the kind of connection to history that they've got." Yeah, I still, I still get the kind of, "Oh my God, the White Tower." It's still absolutely... I've been here coming here on and off eight years, with different roles and everything, and I still don't get over it.

Kelly Molson: That's amazing. So you still get the goosebumps, you still get the-

Cate Milton: Oh, completely, completely. You just walk under an archway and there are little faces carved into the arch, and they've seen every monarch since Henry III. Every single monarch we've had, like some of the biggest events in world history, have happened within these walls or at Hampton Court with Henry VIII, or Banqueting House. Charles the First was executed outside Banqueting House. So, some real key history where it happened moments have happened at our sites, and it's amazing that we get to kind of invite people in to share those stories.

Kelly Molson: Well, how did you get... because you said that this, you've really landed on your feet. This is a dream role.

Cate Milton: Yeah.

Kelly Molson: What did you study beforehand to bring into this role?

Cate Milton: So, I started... uni-wise, I did English and history degree, and then, because I graduated in the last recession, so I ended up working in schools in Essex and as a PA, and at the time, honestly, that's all I wanted to be. I was just like, I'm happy being a PA. I like organising things." It's a brilliant job if you like organising you, just sitting there really understanding nuts and bolts of things. And then I saw the PA job advertised for the governor of the Tower of London, and the Tower has been, honestly, my favourite place in the world since I was about five or six. I have a picture my grandmother took of me at the gates, kind of just like, "Let me in, let me in."

Cate Milton: So getting it was a complete, complete dream come true, but I got it based on the fact I just sat there and said, "Yeah, I just want to be a PA. That's my dream. I just want to be a PA. I've got no other aspirations." But within nine months I had made the most of an opportunity to move into Ops, and then from then on I was just like, "This is what I should do. I love making stuff happen, I love working here, I love heritage. This fits who I am. This is what I want to do." So, I was there for a little bit. I was lucky enough to run an event called The Constable's Installation.

Cate Milton: So, every four or five years, the Queen nominates her representative at The Tower of London, which is known as the Constable of the Tower. We've had one since 1078, so it's not a position that many people have had. And we had this big ceremony that the Lord Chamberlain comes to to install the Constable, and I was fortunate enough to be the first woman and the first civilian to run that installation in 2016.

Kelly Molson: Gosh.

Cate Milton: And I mean, it's still one of the best days of my life, but I peaked really, really early. I peaked at 28. That's it now, it's all downhill for now on. But doing that mix of operations and big ceremonies and events, I was kind of pinched by English Heritage to be their event manager for a couple of years, actually working with Lucy Hutchings, who I've then been working with at Hampton Court-

Kelly Molson: Oh, lovely.

Cate Milton: That's been really nice. Yeah. And then, I kept an eye on what was happening at HRP, because it was very much like... English Heritage is an absolutely fantastic organisation, but I'm very London-centric, so yeah, when this role came up I had the right combination of, "I've been in Ops, I've been on the front line. I understand, I care about what that experience looks like." So yeah, I applied for the role and the mothership called me home and I came back to the Tower.

Kelly Molson: Oh, goodness. That's so amazing.

Cate Milton: Yeah. So, I've had a lovely time the last eight years. I've been very lucky.

Kelly Molson: Yeah.

Cate Milton: I've been here for the last four, and it's been such a learning curve, because we originally started with a programme called [inaudible 00:14:47] and Distinctive, which is around customer experience and that's now become a little bit more kind of business as usual. But I've learnt so, so much in the last four years and really cemented that customer experiences is the bit I love the most, that I really want to do.

Kelly Molson: Oh. You've left the PA dreams. You've left them behind.

Cate Milton: I know. Yeah, they've fallen by the wayside a little bit and then now it's just like, I want to run things.

Kelly Molson: Bigger dreams. 

Cate Milton: Exactly.

Kelly Molson: Bigger dreams.

Cate Milton: Absolutely.

Kelly Molson: There's a lot... I've got so many questions for you based on what you just talked through, but we spoke a couple of weeks ago and you talked to me about the customer journey mapping exercise that you went on with KPMG, and I was really interested in this because it is really... It's similar to what we do in digital. So, we look at user journeys and we plot out where people are going to go on the site and what journeys we want to take them on, and it sounds very similar, but obviously it's in the real world. And I wanted to get you to talk that through. Tell us how you go about that. What was the need for it, to start with?

Cate Milton: Yeah. So, customer journey mapping is such a vital tool for understanding the entire end-to-end journey for your customers. For example, at HRP sites we had departments who are kind of looking after individual touchpoints of our customer journey, particularly on site. But, in order to make the journey as seamless as possible and to be the best possible experience, it's essential that all of those touchpoints link together beautifully and they don't kind of jar that one department wants to do things this way and another does it this way, and... It just gets a bit jarring to go through that journey.

Cate Milton: So, the customer experience overall suffers a little bit. But when you're looking at customer journey map, it really gives you that picture of this is where our customer starts, and this is the kind of thing that they're feeling, these are emotions, this is what their expectations are, and then takes you through every single touchpoint, right until the end, which is in, our case, they've gone offsite. What kind of post-visit relationship do we have with them after that?

Cate Milton: So, for us it was very much the ambition to visualise that, to map that out, to get a, I suppose like a Bible of customer experience where everything is in that one place, so we can all be working to the same document, we can all understand the same thing, have the same vision, and really start kind of picking out those areas that we could focus on to improve what is... don't get me wrong... already an excellent visitor experience. We are some of the most amazing sites, some of the most amazing front-of-house teams. So it's going from good to great, rather than, "Oh my God, this is horrendous. We need to fix this."

Cate Milton: So it's just where those little areas are that we could push ourselves kind of up a little bit more. So yeah, we got the help of KPMG to do that, because it was, it was not an approach that HRP had had done previously, so we needed that kind of outside consultancy, advice on how to go about that. And yeah, we worked with them on the processing of gathering all the information, the data and insight that we had, which was a mammoth task. We have a lot. We have all sorts of kind of surveys that are done about different exhibitions, or exit surveys. We have the ALVA benchmarking. There's so much information that we have just dotted around at different places, so trying to bring that all together to understand the picture that our visitors have been telling us, the information is there: what they want to see, what their expectations are, motivations, what they need on site. So, it's all that information.

Cate Milton: We also ran workshops and did service safari. So, that is essentially taking a cross-palace team and kind of giving them a role for the day, giving them a persona. So, for example, you're the Walker family today. So, get your mind... We did some empathy mapping to really get people's minds into, "I'm a family. I've got a young child and a slightly old child, what do I need? Have I got buggy? Have I got to take things, am I going to need changing rooms?" All those kind of considerations. So, we gave people different personas so they could really kind of connect with some of our general groups of visitors. This is one of the frustrations, because you can't cover everybody. You do have to be very general, and there are going to be gaps in that, but some of that you can kind of cover off later. But yes, we did these service safaris and got our teams to do a visit, and to start looking at things from a visitor's point of view.

Kelly Molson: That's so interesting. So, it is your own internal team that you take through this process?

Cate Milton: Exactly, exactly. And it was always important to make sure that we had other members of staff who aren't used to that particular site. So, with KPMG we did Kensington and Tower of London, and it's one of those things with the best one in the world: you get blindness with your own site, because you see things day after day, you know what you're trying to focus on, what you're trying to improve, but sometimes you just stop seeing some of the things; stop seeing through the trees kind of thing. So, it's really helpful to get those other members of staff that aren't there every single day, and it's fascinating what comes out, and it's so useful for members of staff to really see like, "Oh yeah, why are we expecting us to do that?" Or, "That's actually quite difficult. Why are we doing it like that?"

Cate Milton: It's so useful, and honestly, I mean, even if it's not a process, the customer data mapping is not a process that other organisations want to go through, I completely recommend doing service safaris. It really opens people's eyes. But we also had a lot of kind of one-to-one conversations with members of staff from across the organisation, and one of the most important groups in that was front of house. Visitor feedback is essential in understanding what our visitors want, and their opinions on stuff, but a lot of stuff that we got, for example, in our CRM, where visitors have contacted our contact centre, that's either the stuff that they absolutely love and is amazing or the stuff that's really upset them.

Cate Milton: There's a massive gap in the middle there that our front of house team see every day in terms of minor irritations. It puts friction in, but it's not enough for someone to complain about. We need to look at that stuff as well. That's the everyday stuff that just jars with you a little bit. You just think, "Oh, that was a bit rubbish." And that stays in you. It might not be that's something you want to complain about later on, but it's still that you're going to go to friends and sort of say, "Yeah, it was good. I mean, this bit was a bit annoying."

Cate Milton: So, it's so important to engage front of house teams to kind of have spies on the ground, to know what they're always asked about, to know the visitors always go the wrong way in this bit. Is it clear what room they're in? Is it clear where the toilets are, if the map's okay? So, we did quite a bit of work about talking to those guys, as well. And it's just kin of collating all of this data that everybody's got. It's just a matter of putting it together and, yeah, putting it into this, this tool that shows you what's happening at at each touchpoint. The most valuable thing, I think, the snapshot that comes from it, is the emotional journey of the customer.

Cate Milton: So, obviously what you want in an ideal world is that they come in feeling okay and they leave thinking, "This is the most amazing thing. That was great. I loved every connection I had with that organisation." And that's what you're aspiring to, as well as everything nice and green and happy in the middle. But, that emotional journey graph really gives you a snapshot of, "Oh, okay. Well, things are dropping a little bit here. What going wrong here, or what can we improve here, or how has something earlier on not set this up properly? And if we fix this, is this going to effect later on?" So, it's such a valuable tool to really get that idea of what our visitors, what our customers are actually going through.

Kelly Molson: That's epic though, isn't it? I mean, the amount of information that you need to have for that, and to do it really well, too. How long does a process like that take?

Cate Milton: So, in terms of the data we already had, obviously we were talking kind of years of data. Customer journey mapping, you could either do it as a snapshot of the current state, or you can be a bit more aspirational and do it as a snapshot of kind of where you want to get to. It's most useful, really, to kind of have a combination of... to have two. But yeah, for us it was doing an in-depth audit of all the bits of information we had, making sure that KPMG had access to that, and we went through it with them about what this means, what this doesn't. There's also that kind of complication of, well, something exceptional happening three years ago. That means that's skewed that data a little bit.

Kelly Molson: Right.

Cate Milton: So what can we look into that is the kind of justification. So, for example, if our ticketing system had a blip and we get loads of complaints about that, we know that, we've solved that, and we don't need to worry too much about that, but we maybe need to record it's annoying if the ticking system has a moment. But overall, I mean, it took us maybe about six months to do with KPMG and kind of getting through all these stages of looking at the visitor staff, looking at the employee staff, looking at which departments feed into which parts, and also just identifying all the touch points. I think we've ended up with something around 70 to 80 individual touchpoints from start to finish on an onsite journey.

Cate Milton: So that's only what we're talking about when visitors actually come online on site. We also have, like you were saying earlier, digital journeys that our digital engagement team look at. We have membership, we have schools, we have people with accessibility requirements. They all have a different journey.

Cate Milton: There's all sorts of different things to layer on top of that you can kind of factor in. But, it was, it was very in depth and just absolutely fascinating, and a really good opportunity to kin of get everyone on board the same thing as well, and to get departments that kind of sit alongside each other, but maybe don't overlap so often. Or, we're the same as many other organisations, multi-site organisations that sometimes silos or kind of barrier, and doing things like this really starts to show everyone how they're part of the entire, and that cross-department working is really, really useful.

Kelly Molson: Yeah, it's re-engaging the internal team with the visitor as well, isn't it, because you've put them in their in their shoes-

Cate Milton: Absolutely.

Kelly Molson: ... and you've mentioned empathy. What was it you called it?

Cate Milton: Yeah. So, we did some empathy mapping, where essentially we kind of, before we sent people out on that service safari we gave them these personas and we gave them kind of questionnaires about, "What do you think this person or this group of people is looking for? What do you think their main considerations are? What do you think their main worries are? What do they need on site? What they trying to get out of it?" I mean, KPMG made us, created us some personas that combined things like our cultural segments, as well and making sure we've got that overlap between motivations and needs. Personas are a key part of customer journey mapping, and yeah, kin of creating... Say it's the general kind of average visitor, which is incredibly difficult for a lot of sites, because we've got-

Kelly Molson: They don't exist, do they?

Cate Milton: Exactly. Do you know what I mean? We've got people from all over the world or different backgrounds, so that is a difficult thing. But, I think one of the other things to kind of bear in mind with customer journey mapping is you don't want to get analysis paralysis. I suppose you don't want to kind of get into that mindset where you are kind of analyzing so much that you don't just get something done. It is so important to get started because the thing with customer journey maps is they're not static documents. That's not it. You don't create one and then, "Oh, we're done now. This is what it looks like."

Cate Milton: You take it, you learn from it, you update it, you review it, you take kind of opportunities from it. You look at how else you can track and wonder about trends, so if you can prove something you kind of keep an eye on feedback, see it and re-improve that. So, it keeps moving. That's its value, is that it's a live document that you keep updating to see how the journey moves and where the weak points get to, and eventually you end up with just five across the board and you're like, now you're done. Now you-

Kelly Molson: I'm sure that is not the case.

Cate Milton: No, I don't think so.

Kelly Molson: You went through this process six months. Actually, yeah, that was interesting, because I thought that you were going to say it was longer. I was expecting you to say it was a year's process.

Cate Milton: Yeah.

Kelly Molson: So, six months. What were the outcomes from that, and what have you had to improve because of it?

Cate Milton: So, I think one of the biggest outcomes... Because I should also say that we, the delivery of this, got pushed forward slightly because the end of the world happened. So, we kind of got to spring 2020, getting to the point where we were just about to understand everything there is to know, and then obviously it just disappeared.

Kelly Molson: Right? The world went, "Ah-ah-ah-ah."

Cate Milton: Yeah, exactly.

Kelly Molson: "Ready or not."

Cate Milton: Like, "Okay then, so there's no customers to improve the experience of right now." So, that obviously put a pause on things for a little while, but one of the biggest things I think it gave a focus to, which is one of the major outcomes, was like you said, kind of helping people refocus on the visitor, on the customer. What it meant was we were able to demonstrate that operations really have ownership of that entire journey, and we have kind of... I mean, they're a bit more than subject matter experts, but like our interpretation teams, our curatorial teams, they support Ops and Ops support them to deliver.

Cate Milton: But, it was just really important that we started moving towards an organisation where operations control and own that end-to-end journey, so that someone does and so that there's consistency in delivery, so that we aren't switching back and forth between different departments, which, internally we can work like that. That's fine. We understand about how it's this person interpretation and it's this person, but we don't want our visitors to feel like there's effort between touchpoints. They see it as sterile palaces, that's what we need to present it as. So, it made sense for operations to really kind of, I suppose, step up and take ownership of that, and our structure now reflects that as well.

Cate Milton: So, I think in terms of kind of outcomes, it was a lot of kin of realisation of how best to run a customer experience. And also, just the fact that, like I said, we had so many different overlaps of things, and it kind of starts drawing out as well the themes throughout the entire organisation, but also there's places where the palaces, are different and there's a balance to be struck there about, they have to be different. They tell different stories, they have different personalities, but we want it to be an HRP standard, so how does that apply to each of the different sites?

Cate Milton: So, after we did Tara Kensington, we've also got a ticketing journey map as well. I've just done the Hampton Court one. So, for the first time HRP has done a customer journey map by themselves, so I went out and did the Hampton Courts customer journey map, and we'd just come to the conclusion of that and fed back to the workshop group. So, kind of having that learning about how to approach these things, how to do it, how to be sustainable on our own so that we don't have to keep going back and say, "We've got another one. Can you help us do another one?" Yeah, and hopefully we'll be able to do Hillsborough and then go back and start, as I said before, layering the schools and community visits; absolutely layering accessibility.

Cate Milton: A colleague of mine made the really good point that that should be a priority for us, and 100% agree. Some of our sites are incredibly challenging for people with different access requirements because they weren't built that way.

Cate Milton: Tower London in particular was built to keep people out, rather than welcoming two million or so visitors. So, there's challenges around that, and I think any other historic site would sympathise with that. So, I think it just kind of focused us, really. It focused us on what we can do for customer experience, and that it's an ongoing thing. It's not a, "we'll do it, we'll fix it, we'll move on." But also just the fact that... I think I've said briefly before that it's not about fixing individual touchpoints, and the best example, I guess... I keep wheeling out this one example to everyone to demonstrate it. It's where we've kind of, as everybody has moved to a more online ticketing model... Because that's the fluid expectations of customers, that's what people expect. They want to be able to self-serve and be able to sort themselves out. Great. We're brilliant, we're on that, people can do that.

Cate Milton: But the problem is that if we are moving to that model and the majority of our visitors are booking online, when they turn up onsite, if they come to the West Gate at Hampton Court, the West Gate at Tower of London, they haven't had a chat with our great admissions team, so they haven't had a chance to orientate themselves. They haven't had a chance to be given a map and be told what's going on that day. They've kind of been able to skip that and go straight to a gate. So it's kind of, okay, so we've made that bit better and more seamless, but now we've moved a problem further down the line. So, it's understanding the changes to one touch point and how that impacts the rest of the journey. You can't just fix one thing in isolation and think, "Excellent, that will be up and green now," without considering its position in the entire, in the rest of the journey I think.

Kelly Molson: That is such an excellent point, isn't it? You can't fix one touch point without it impacting another.

Cate Milton: Absolutely.

Kelly Molson: And how do you monitor the impacts when you do?

Cate Milton: Yeah.

Kelly Molson: Oh, goodness. I was going to ask you what was your biggest learning from the process, but it sounds like one of the biggest learnings was being able to do it yourself.

Cate Milton: Yes. I don't have to do it now. No, it absolutely was. I was so valuable to watch the the guys from KPMG, because in terms of consultancy support they are some of the best, KPMG, some of the best in that kind of area of customer experience. So, it was amazing to kind of go through that. Also kind of understand some of the psychology behind it, and what we're trying to achieve and why, and even kind of watching them watching our visitors up on Tower Hill and understanding how they're moving, and how we might be able to improve that, and where their hesitations are, and what might be going on. That kind of understanding, that psychological factor, was so useful... so, so useful for me taking it on boards and taking it further for the organisation.

Kelly Molson: Do you think as a result of this, as well, that the internal teams work better... Even though this was a process to help improve the customer's experience... do you think it's actually helped the internal teams?

Cate Milton: Oh, completely, 100%, because it's now something we've got to refer to and they can see where they fit in. And that's not to say that people didn't realise that before, and it's absolutely not to say that everyone was just working in their own little kingdom before, but I think it gives a central focus point.

Cate Milton: And so, the end of the world got in the way the little bit, so we are looking now to kind of... Now we've got the Hampton court one and we're putting in place the process for reviewing that, for reviewing our kind of customer experience backlog documents that we now have for each palace, to understand we need to get on with this area, this element. So for example, Hampton Court, we need some better signage in the car park, so we can get on with that first. That's a priority. We know that's a, that's a pain point.

Cate Milton: So, we've kind of got these lists and we're putting in place this process for reviewing those, keeping us, holding ourselves to account, making sure we're getting on with things as and when we can; the same with, basically I guess, every other kind of museum, gallery, heritage attraction resource and funding is an issue for us at the moment. So it's just understanding kind of where those priorities are. But yeah, understanding that process and how we review it, and bringing all of those departments in and kind of working together on how we fix things or improve things, I think, is definitely going to be getting better and better as we go on. We're kind of about to relaunch it, in a way, now that we've got the Hampton Court one as well.

Kelly Molson: Yeah.

Cate Milton: Because it's taken a while for everyone to come back to work, to find their feet again. I don't know about anyone else, but it took me a long time to be able to focus for any more than five minutes at time, so now that we're back there and it's starting to look a bit more normal. We can really start kind of launching that, making sure the entire organisation understands what we've got, why we've got them, and how we intend to use them. So, that will be kind of a job for this summer and into the autumn.

Kelly Molson: I mean, what a great experience, what a great process to go through, and it's had so many incredible outcomes.

Cate Milton: Yes.

Kelly Molson: What would be your top tips for any organisation that's about to embark on something similar?

Cate Milton: I think that the most important thing is involve your colleagues, and involve them early. A lot of people... Obviously, there's always going to be demands on kind of time and energy, but making sure that people understand early how important they are to, and how important their work in their departments are to understanding everything is vital, and organisations can only be stronger for it. I'd also say in terms of our kind of visitor attraction organisations, front of house teams, making sure that their voice is absolutely heard, because it's one thing for somebody who's in the back office, tapping away, to start coming and saying, "We think this, and we're going to fix it with this," if you haven't actually asked the guys who are out on the grounds, answering the question of where the toilets are for the 50th time in hour.

Cate Milton: So, I think that was the biggest thing for me, was making sure to whatever extent that you do customer daily mapping... because you can do a pretty informal version. You can take it to the extent that we did, but it's make sure that your front of house teams are heard and are a big part of it, I think.

Kelly Molson: Good tip. Weirdly, that's where we go and start, as well, from digital perspective-

Cate Milton: Oh, really?

Kelly Molson: ... because people often think that you just talk to the marketing department because that's who you are engaged with, that's who's brought you on. But for us to understand where digital can support the organisation, we need to understand what challenges front of house are having, and then bring the two together?

Cate Milton: Completely that.

Kelly Molson: Completely. So glad. I knew we'd be aligned, Cate. I knew you would be. Right. We need to talk about Superbloom.

Cate Milton: Yeah.

Kelly Molson: I mean, spectacular. You're in the midst of it right now. For anyone who's watching this, or anyone who's listening to this and not watching the video... Why aren't you watching the video, because we are fabulous. Cate's in a high-vis jacket right now because she's actually on site-

Cate Milton: Yep.

Kelly Molson: ... in the midst of Superbloom.

Cate Milton: Absolutely, yes. I'm out there as an event coordinator today. So, yeah, running around looking after our volunteers and our visitors, making sure that everything's running smoothly and, yeah, everyone's happy, which is a lot easier in beautiful sunshine like this.

Kelly Molson: It is a glorious, glorious day, and it is an absolutely spectacular show piece, what you have there, so congrats on pulling it off.

Cate Milton: Thank you so much. I mean, I can't take really any credit for it. Honestly, it's our interpretation teams have been working on this for about three years. It's been a really long buildup to the project. The work started onsite in about October, and then there's been a lot of, kind of, since I think late March, early April, a lot of kind of staring at soil, kind of like, "Are we okay? Are they coming?"

Kelly Molson: "Please work."

Cate Milton: And the thing is... I mean, honestly, I can't even explain what an amazing job they've done, and there's something like 20 million seeds planted in that moat, so that the scale of it cannot be underestimated.

Kelly Molson: Gosh.

Cate Milton: But yeah, we got there, we opened officially on the 1st of June just in time for the Jubilee weekend, and it was something that we learned from our commemorations of World War I's, for both the poppies and the flames: that the public really liked having the Towers as kind of a place, essential place to come and take part in national events. So, that's kind of where the thought came from about celebrating the Queen's Jubilee, with that kind of changing the moat again. We've upgraded from ceramic poppies to the real thing. There's a wonderful scattering of California poppies down there at the moment, so it's looking absolutely stunning. We've got everything from different smells going on, there's music down there, which honestly is so Zen. It's my favourite place to be. I'll just go walk through like, "I'm so calm right now. There is no City of London out there, there's no traffic. I'm just in the bed of flowers and this amazing music."

Cate Milton: But yeah, it's been going really well, and yeah, it's one of those times where you just realise how strong your teams are. We've got kind of event coordinators who all have other jobs, that volunteered to come out and help on their days off or alongside their regular jobs. We've got volunteer coordinators who are mostly our front of house teams, who, as anyone will know, in a summer it's so busy onsite anyway, and then for them to offer to come and help in Superbloom on days off is incredible. So, it does... Yeah, without being too kind of gooey about it, it makes you really proud to be part of an organisation that kind of has the vision to do this and then moves forward and actually does it. And we also have a slide, which is-

Kelly Molson: Oh, well, I mean, if you weren't sold before Cate mentioned the slide, I mean, tick. I'm there.

Cate Milton: Come and slide into the moat. Do you know what, it's the most joyous thing. The kids love it, obviously, but my absolute favourite thing has been watching adults. We have grandmothers going off and going down, and it just... I want to be like them. I want to still have that kind of, I think, playfulness, but I'm kind of closer, a little bit closer, to the end of my run on this earth, but-

Kelly Molson: Oh, phenomenal, yeah.

Cate Milton: Absolutely. Yeah. It's a great event, and it's just something completely different in the city, and it represents the biggest change we've made to the moat... or, not HRP, but has been made to the moat since the Duke of Wellington drained it in eight, I think 1843.

Kelly Molson: Okay.

Cate Milton: So, since then it's been mostly turf. It's been kind of used for other practicalities, like allotments in World War II and so on, but yeah, it hasn't been changed to this extent since then, so it's a big mark in the history of the Tower, as well; as well as kind of acknowledging the Queen's achievement, and just helping the biodiversity a little bit of city of London, as well.

Kelly Molson: Yeah.

Cate Milton: One of the best bits is you are walking through the flowers, if you stop and look, they're moving. There's so many pollinators and wildlife in there. It's just, yeah. It's amazing. It's a very kind of wholesome, grounding, life isn't so bad kind of place to be.

Kelly Molson: Yeah. I mean, Cate, you've absolutely sold it. Absolutely.

Cate Milton: Oh good, everybody come.

Kelly Molson: Everyone go visit. I mean, how could you not after that? Cate, thank you so much. It's been such a pleasure to talk to you. We always ask our guests to recommend a book, a book that you love, that you'd recommend to our listeners. What have you got for us?

Cate Milton: So, this was so hard, honestly. I was sat there looking at my bookshelves because I've got everything from basically every book that's ever been written on Henry V, because I'm a geek on that side of things. I think one of the ones that kind of really woke me up to understanding the psychological side of customer experience a little bit more was Thinking Fast and Slow, which most people in this environment, I'm sure, have read or heard of. But, it's a great way of understanding what's going on in people's minds when they're just going around their everyday life. So yeah, that's been so helpful in terms of working out how to make things more seamless and making sure that people can do things automatically, and it's intuitive and obvious, which means the bigger part of them is free to enjoy and be happy and be excited about where they are.

Cate Milton: So, I think that's definitely a big one for me. But, from a kind of personal side of view, if I'm not looking at heritage, then whales and dolphins are my absolute, absolute passion, and there's a book, called Leviathan, by Philip Hoare, who's... He's also a whale fanatic, and it's just his relationship with understanding the oceans, understanding kind of the history of whales, of whaling, the changing relationship between humanity and whales. It's my absolute favourite book. So yeah, if you want something a bit out there, a bit random, then Leviathan is an amazingly well-written book.

Kelly Molson: That sounds beautiful. Well, I mean, neither of those books have been recommended on the podcast before. This is really interesting.

Cate Milton: It's like, Thinking Fast and Slow, I was just like, I feel like everyone would've said that one because it's, yeah. The chapters are really short. It's kind of a concentrating read, but absolutely, it really sets out how humans think and why we are as we are, so I think it's really, really valuable in terms of thinking about customer experience.

Kelly Molson: Yes, great. I'm absolutely amazed that nobody has recommended it before, but, right. Okay. So we... Well, Cate has blown my marketing budget, like most people do. So, we'll give you two books to win this month.

Cate Milton: Thank you, thank you. Sorry about that.

Kelly Molson: You know what to do, listeners: head over to our Twitter account, find this episode announcement, and retweet it with the words, "I want Cate's book..." Uh, books because there's two.

Cate Milton: Yeah, sorry. Sorry.

Kelly Molson: And you'll be in with a chance of winning them. So, go over and do that. Cate, it's been such a pleasure. Thank you.

Cate Milton: Thank you so much. I honestly, I'm such a geek on this stuff, so it's so nice to have an excuse to talk about it.

Kelly Molson: I've loved it. Well, feel free to come back on any time and talk more about it, because it's been a delight.

Cate Milton: Thank you so much.

Kelly Molson: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five-star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned. Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website, rubbercheese.com/podcast.

Download The Visitor Attractions Website Survey Report - https://www.merac.co.uk/download-the-visitor-attractions-survey

We have launched our brand-new playbook: ‘The Retail Ready Guide to Going Beyond the Gift Shop’ — your go-to resource for building a successful e-commerce strategy that connects with your audience and drives sustainable growth.

Download your FREE copy here

Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is  Kelly Molson, MD of Rubber Cheese.

Download our free ebook The Ultimate Guide to Doubling Your Visitor Numbers

If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website rubbercheese.com/podcast.

If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this podcast

Competition ends October 1st 2022. The winner will be contacted via Twitter.

Show references:

https://twitter.com/rubbercheese

https://twitter.com/TheChiefCheese

https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellymolson/

https://bit.ly/rc-attraction-website-survey-2022

https://www.rubbercheese.com/insights/visitor-attraction-website-survey/

Transcriptions:

Kelly Molson: Hey everyone. It is just me today. No lovely guest for you. You just have to put up with the sounds of my twangy Essex voice. Sorry. But listen, I've got something to share with you all today. And if you work in the marketing or digital department of your visitor attraction, then this is something that you are going to be really interested in. But first, let me tell you a little story. This story is about webinar and cart abandonment rates. I know what you're thinking. It's going to be a really rubbish story, but you would be wrong. 

Anyway, back at the beginning of the year, the lovely folk at Kallaway PR asked me to host a webinar for their clients. And that webinar was about how to improve cart abandonment rates. "Great," I thought. "I can talk about this all day long. I know the best way to improve cart abandonment rates is to improve the booking journey," and that is something that we talk about at Rubber Cheese all the time.

So off I truck to find the sector data to back up my theories. And that is where this story ends because there is no specific data for the sector. So I can tell you the average bounce rate for a pharmaceutical website or what the cart abandonment rate for a travel website is. It's about 80%, but I can't give you any averages or any of specific datas for an attraction website because the data just does not exist. There's no sector data for average page loads times, or bounce rates or even website visitors. So at Rubber Cheese, we are going to change that.

We have launched the first 2022 Visitor Attraction Website Survey. So let's face it. The past two years have been pretty transformational for the sector and they've transformed how visitor attractions operate online, probably forever. With the increased need for online bookings, additional revenue drivers, and a seamless on and offline experience, it's more important than ever for visitor attraction marketers, to understand how their website is actually performing.

But the trouble is knowing what good looks like is almost impossible until we uncouple visitor attractions from the travel and tourism industry sector because it skews the data. So, supported by ALVA and ASVA, we are calling on hundreds of visitor attractions to anonymously complete this research to help our vibrant industry grow. The survey will allow you to benchmark your website against national averages. 

It'll give you a deep dive into specific attraction types in specific locations, and be able to compare website performance within those sectors. You'll know what great looks like and where you currently sit and it'll help you build arguments for future investment in your website and digital channels. It's going to help you plan for the future and the ongoing recovery of this sector. And look, the survey, it only takes 15 minutes to complete.

You're going to need access to your Google Analytics, but 15 minutes of your time is really all it will take. And for that, you'll receive a brilliant report, access to a launch event, and do some good too, as we're making a donation to the British Red Cross Ukraine Crisis Appeal for every full response that we receive. 

If you're interested, I'd urge you to go and check out the survey now, and you can find that on our website, which is rubbercheese.com/visitor-attraction-website-survey-2022. Or if you just head over and follow us on Twitter, which is Rubber Cheese, then you'll find us posting out lots of information about it there. Or if you follow me on Twitter, which is The Chief Cheese, you'll find me posting about it too.

 Please fill the survey in. It will really, really help us get the data that will be so vital to know how you can improve your digital channels. Thank you.

Download The Visitor Attractions Website Survey Report - https://www.merac.co.uk/download-the-visitor-attractions-survey

We have launched our brand-new playbook: ‘The Retail Ready Guide to Going Beyond the Gift Shop’ — your go-to resource for building a successful e-commerce strategy that connects with your audience and drives sustainable growth.

Download your FREE copy here

Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is  Kelly Molson, MD of Rubber Cheese.

Download our free ebook The Ultimate Guide to Doubling Your Visitor Numbers

If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website rubbercheese.com/podcast.

If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this episode.

Competition ends October 1st 2022. The winner will be contacted via Twitter.

Show references:

https://maryrose.org/

https://www.historicdockyard.co.uk/

https://twitter.com/DominicJonesUK

https://www.linkedin.com/in/dominicejones/

https://www.nmrn.org.uk/

https://www.historicdockyard.co.uk/news/item/1152-buoyant-bounce-back-bodes-well-for-portsmouth-historic-dockyard

Dominic Jones was recruited to the Mary Rose in 2019 ago as Chief Operating Officer, and became CEO in 2021.  He brings an excellent background in commercial visitor attractions (Disney, Merlin) and creative visitor experience development.

During his time at the Mary Rose, he has already driven an excellent commercial and operational performance and worked closely with previous Chief Executive to create the new Portsmouth Historic Dockyard joint venture with the National Museum of the Royal Navy, which launched successfully in August 2020. 

Transcriptions:

Kelly Molson: Welcome to Skip the Queue, a podcast for people working in or working with visitor attractions. I'm your host, Kelly Molson. In today's episode, I speak with Dominic Jones, CEO of the Mary Rose Museum and Director of Portsmouth Historic Dockyard. 

Dominic shares the amazing impact of the joint venture between the Mary Rose Museum and the National Museum of the Royal Navy and his advice for any attractions looking to start and improve their partnership arrangements. 

If you like what you hear, subscribe on all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue.

Kelly Molson: Dominic. Welcome to Skip the Queue. Thanks for coming on.

Dominic Jones: Thanks for having me. I'm looking forward to it, I think.

Kelly Molson: You are looking forward to it. You don't need to think about it. Can we just point out, I know, listeners, you can't see this, but if you're watching this on YouTube, can we just see, you've got a lovely little, "I love Skip the Queue" graphic in the background there. Look at that.

Dominic Jones: Yeah, I think it's important to get across that I do love Skip the Queue and it's important to get that across before the icebreaker questions, I think, just in case you had a couple and you were thinking, "Oh, I'm going to be a bit tough." And then, so I did that and I tweeted this morning how excited I am about your forthcoming website attraction questionnaire, so that's a double. That's a double positive, right?

Kelly Molson: Thank you. Thank you. Don't worry, listeners. I've got a special little recording so you understand what we're talking about that will be coming out in the next week or so, so you'll find out more about that soon.

Dominic Jones: And I bought you a rubber for your rubber collection. Can you see that? Mary Rose rubber?

Kelly Molson: Wow. Look at that.

Dominic Jones: You may or may not get that depending on how the icebreakers go, so that's my third attempt.

Kelly Molson: Gosh, I've never been bribed for a good icebreaker question.

Dominic Jones: It's not bribery. It's a nice gift. It's a nice gift.

Kelly Molson: Right, well, let's get cracking on the icebreaker questions, shall we? I think I've been quite kind to you. Tell us something that you are really great at cooking.

Dominic Jones: I really like cooking. I actually find cooking really relaxing, so on a Friday or Saturday, I often cook at home, so it depends, really. I quite like making my own recipes, so just using what we've got in the house. So for example, scallops with chorizo, or if you're doing a steak, might do it with some sort of watercress and various cheese, or just sort of experimenting. I really like sort of seeing what we've got, putting it together and making it work. I think it's important, when you're cooking, to drink some wine as well.

Kelly Molson: Oh, I agree.

Dominic Jones: So cooking with wine is something I enjoy doing.

Kelly Molson: We can be friends, Dominic.

Dominic Jones: There we go.

Kelly Molson: Absolutely, we can be friends. Also, really great choices of food there. I would definitely eat both of those. You'd be really good on Ready Steady Cook, then. That would've been your show.

Dominic Jones: Yeah. Do you know what? I used to... So I once applied for a game show, which I didn't get on, I was very disappointed, but Ready Steady Cook was one I think I could have done. Because it's not hard, is it? Most things go with things, and it's also about having the confidence to carry it off and knowing... The only time it went wrong was I wanted to cook for my girlfriend, who's now my wife, a lemon pasta dish and it tasted awful and it had lemon rind in it and stuff, so... But apart from that, it's always worked out.

Kelly Molson: Well, I mean, you must have done all right. She married you.

Dominic Jones: Yeah.

Kelly Molson: She married you in the end.

Dominic Jones: True.

Kelly Molson: All right. Well, our next one, I've gone topical for this. If you were the captain of a pirate ship...

Dominic Jones: Yeah?

Kelly Molson: What would be the name of your ship?

Dominic Jones: That's a good one. Oh. I do like pirates. I think, because I'm Welsh and because I'd want to be a pirate who... A bit like sort of the Warrior in the Dockyard, which isn't a pirate ship, by the way, but when it came in, people normally surrendered, I want to be a scary pirate that people would think, "Oh, don't..." Maybe, like, Smoking Dragon or something like that. And then we'd light smoke as we came in so people are like, "Oh, here's the Smoking Dragon."

Kelly Molson: Yeah, I like that. And there'd be a big dragon's head on the front with flame and smoke coming out of it.

Dominic Jones: And people... Because a lot of pirates were Welsh. I don't know whether you know this, but a lot of pirates were Welsh.

Kelly Molson: I didn't know that.

Dominic Jones: Yeah, it's massive.

Kelly Molson: Wow.

Dominic Jones: Massive.

Kelly Molson: Okay. All right. This is great. That's an excellent answer.

Dominic Jones: I have to say, these are slightly biased questions because I was listening to a few of your podcasts recently and, like, you had someone from the zoo, "Oh, what's your favourite animal?" Or you had someone from IAAPA, "What's your favourite ride?" And I'm getting a "name a pirate ship"? Know what I mean?

Kelly Molson: All right, what's your favourite boat?

Dominic Jones: No, only joking. I'm not going to answer that. I'm not going to answer that.

Kelly Molson: All right, but what is your favourite smell? That's my last question.

Dominic Jones: Genuinely, we're looking at smell now for the museum, because smell is so important, it's something that can make a difference. When I was at Madame Tussauds Amsterdam, we used smell, as well, as part of the experience, because it just creates that emotive moment. I do like cookie dough and cookies and the smell of that sort of baking which you get pumped in in Disney parks. I quite like the smell of red wine.

Kelly Molson: Yeah. Yep.

Dominic Jones: Yeah, so I think it's food or drink smells I like, but yeah. Good question.

Kelly Molson: Good answer. We are at Unpopular Opinion Point. What have you got to share with us?

Dominic Jones: This is a hard one because I've decided to go work on this and I did have some really cool ones about lager and N-Dubz and stuff, but I decided to go with work because one of the things that through my whole career, anyone who knows me will know is I get really frustrated when people blame the weather, so I think you shouldn't blame the weather for anything because what happens is when someone blames the weather, when the weather's... So I've worked in theme parks and in museums and aquariums, indoor and outdoor attractions, and you probably know that when it's bad weather, it's great for indoor attractions, when it's good weather, it's good for the theme parks, right?

Dominic Jones: So you get people that, when it's good weather in theme parks or bad weather in museums, they say, "Oh, our marketing and our everything we're doing is brilliant because the visitors are coming." And as soon as it's the bad weather or the good weather, depending on what you are, then it's all about the weather. So, "Our visitors are down because the weather was good." If you're in an indoor attraction and it really, really irritates me, and it's one of those things, they're mutually exclusive, you can only blame the weather if you give the weather credit when it's good, and it's one of those things, if things are good, I always think you should look outside the window and think, "Right, what's the reason for that?" And then if things are bad, you should look inside your organisation. It's one of my pet hates, but probably doesn't work for the podcast, so I should probably go with the lager or N-Dubz one, but anyway, there we go. But it is important, right? I think it's a good one.

Kelly Molson: It is important. No, I think, yeah, that is important. It's really interesting. I've never really thought about that before. We need to give the weather more credit.

Dominic Jones: Well, you need to give the weather credit if you're going to use it to blame. For me, it's a constant. It's something... And these days, weather forecasts are 10, 14 days out, so you should be able to plan.

Kelly Molson: Yeah. Okay. Good. All right.

Dominic Jones: I'll get off my high horse now. Yeah.

Kelly Molson: Listeners, let us know how you feel, so let us know if you want to know about that N-Dubz one as well. I'm intrigued. Right, Dominic, I want you to tell us about your background because we met up recently, didn't we, at the M+H exhibition? And you were very humble about coming on the podcast and you said, "Oh, I'm not going to have anything... You've had really interesting people on and I'm not that interesting." You are really interesting and you've had such an incredible background. Tell us a little bit about it and how you got to where you are now.

Dominic Jones: Well, I'm not sure about that. I do like listening to your podcast and you have some amazing guests and 9 times out of 10, I normally think, after listening to them, "Right, I'm going to either do something that they've suggested." Or I follow them on LinkedIn or Twitter and think, "Right, let's learn from them." Because I think you should always learn from other people, but so my career is a lot of luck, a lot of opportunity and a lot of chats.

Dominic Jones: When I was growing up, I wanted to be a leisure centre manager. You know? Like you probably won't remember The Brittas Empire, but that was my dream. That was my dream, much to my mum's disappointment. And so that was all I ever wanted, so I went to college and did a leisure studies course, a HND, and there was a placement in PGL Adventure, which is like an adventure park, and I was a Multi Activity Instructor. Absolutely loved it.

Dominic Jones: But then I sort of realised, actually, there's a whole world out there and decided I wanted to work in theme parks, so I applied to work at Disney and didn't get it the first time. I was very cocky, I was the wrong sort of person for Disney, but I went back three times and eventually got it and I did a placement in Disney and it was the best thing I ever did and it changed my life. It's one of the few jobs that I've left and thought, "My life will never be the same again." So good. So I did that and I got my master's degree. I didn't get the doctorate because I went on spring break, but hey, I was young...

Kelly Molson: Well, spring break, though.

Dominic Jones: Exactly. I was young. And then sort of went to Thorpe Park and was a Ride Operator. I remember my friends and some of their family were saying, "That's a real waste of..." Because I went to, in between Disney, went to university in Swansea, and they said, "It's a real waste of university, operating a teacup for £3.50 an hour." Or whatever it was at the time. But I loved it and for me, it was... I thought, "If you want to become a manager or you want to become, eventually, a General Manager or a Director of a theme park, it's really important to know how these things work."

Dominic Jones: So I loved it, and just in case you ever get to operate the teacups, it's not too complicated, there's a red and green button, the red is to stop and the green is to start. I mean, it was five hours of training, but I finally mastered it and you can't actually make it go faster, so when you're there on the microphone and say, "Do you want to go faster?" You can't, it goes faster anyway, but I loved it and then very quickly rose through the ranks, so I became a Ride Supervisor, Team Leader, Area Team Leader, Coordinator, went to Chessington, worked there just at the time when Tussauds had bought Thorpe Park, so it was a real great time for career opportunities.

Dominic Jones: Then I went to Madame Tussauds, was the Customer Service Manager there and helped create the first contact centre, if you like, call centre, where we sold tickets for things like Rock Circus, which is no longer in existence, but Rock Circus, the London Eye, Madam Tussauds, the Planetarium and that became the Merlin Contact Centre in the future, and then I started applying for loads of jobs, more General Manager jobs, and didn't get them and realised that I needed to get some marketing and sales experience.

Dominic Jones: So I left and went to work for Virgin and then I was there for nearly 10 years and absolutely loved it and instead of getting the sales and marketing, well, I got the sales experience, I ended up becoming Vice President of Europe, the Middle East and Africa for the logistics side of the business, and then also, so we opened up Kenya, had some amazing life experiences, we saw the whole world and then was Regional Vice President Sales in Hong Kong for Asia Pacific, so great time.

Dominic Jones: And then my wife became pregnant, obviously, I was involved in that, and it made me realise that I probably couldn't do a job where I was traveling 24/7. I mean, for a while, I did literally consider, which makes me sound like a bad person, "I could call in from Skype and things like that." And my wife was like, "Come on." So we went back to Wales and it was really hard to find a job that would allow me to be at home and be around so I actually thought, "Well, originally, when I went to Virgin, I wanted to have marketing experience."

Dominic Jones: So I actually went to Thorpe Park and the marketing team and looked after the partnerships and promotions, did some really cool things, the Ministry of Sound nightclub deal was there, did some stuff with Lionsgate. A really good time doing the "buy one, get one free" things, the partnerships and events, got some good bands together on the stage that hadn't been on stage with the Wideboys and the [inaudible 00:11:55] boys if you know your dance music, it was massive.

Dominic Jones: Anyway, so I did that for a bit and then got an opportunity to go back to Wales, which is where my wife's family is from. I'm from North Wales, she's from South Wales, so I got a chance to run Oakwood Theme Park, which I absolutely loved and probably would've been there forever if an opportunity hadn't come up with Merlin and Merlin, it was to look after the rest of Europe and the rest of Europe was basically anything in their midway, so Madam Tussauds, Dungeons, Lego Discovery Centre, Sea Life, that wasn't in the UK or Germany, so it was like Istanbul, Helsinki, Paris Blankenberge in Belgium, Spain. I mean, it was brilliant and I did that for a few years.

Dominic Jones: Then I went and ran Thorpe Park for a few years, which absolutely loved because that was where I started as a teacup operator and I remember, there was a guy there, good friend of mine, he said, "I remember, when you were on the teacups, you said, 'One day, I'm going to come back and run the place.'" And I did, so amazing. And then, in that time, I had three kids and really was commuting from Christchurch, so decided to change careers again and come into the heritage world and came as the COO of the Mary Rose, which I did for two years, and then, during the pandemic, became the CEO, so quick sort of... Yeah. But lots of luck and right place, right time, all those sort of things, but that's good, right? That's most people's career.

Kelly Molson: Whoa. That is amazing. I mean, you've been to so many different places. I love that you went full-circle at Thorpe Park as well. What an incredible story, to have gone in there as an operator and then end up running the place. That is amazing.

Dominic Jones: Yeah, I loved that. And actually, all the jobs I've had have really become part of our story. I was talking to someone yesterday about the Mary Rose and they were talking about what they were going to do next but how the Mary Rose had been a massive part of their story and I said, "That's the beautiful thing about work and careers and life. Whatever you do, it becomes part of your story and you're part of their story." So whether it's Thorpe Park, whether it's when I opened up, for Virgin Atlantic, the Nairobi route for logistics and the Hamlin, it was amazing and I've been to Kenya probably more times than I've been to Birmingham, you know? So that's part of my story, and when I leave the Mary Rose, I hope isn't any time soon, this will always be... It'll be my favourite Tudor warship. I mean, it's probably the only Tudor warship, but also my favourite one, so yeah.

Kelly Molson: That was the answer to my question, as well. "What's your favourite ship?"

Dominic Jones: Yeah.

Kelly Molson: Wow. I'm blown away by your career. I just think you've had such a phenomenal journey to get to where you are now. There's something that I want to talk to you about today and that's about your joint venture that you have with the Mary Rose and the National Museum of the Royal Navy. I just want to read out a tweet that I saw because this is what sparked this conversation, so this is a tweet that went out on the Mary Rose Twitter account.

Kelly Molson: It says, "We are very pleased to share that Portsmouth Historic Dockyard saw a 150% rise in visitor numbers in 2021, reported by ALVA today. The significant rise in visitors demonstrates the effectiveness of the joint venture between Mary Rose and the National Museum of the Royal Navy in our first year."

Kelly Molson: I am very intrigued by this because this has been kind of a constant throughout most of the podcast conversations that we have is about how collaborative the sector is, but this is really specific about two attractions collaborating together to bring more visitors in. I would love you to tell us about this.

Dominic Jones: Well, yeah, the end result's fantastic. 150% increase in visitors. It really feels joined up. My son's school is coming in today so I was in the visitor centre and I was waiting to see what time he was coming in because he obviously wouldn't tell me the time he's actually in, so I was looking around the visitor centre and I couldn't be prouder, when you see the mixture of Victory and Warrior and Mary Rose, and how far we've come since we started, but if you go back in history, the Mary Rose used to be part of Portsmouth Historic Dockyard and there was one ticket and there was a separate company called Portsmouth Historic Dockyard that ran it, and lots of trusts, at that time, there were lots of trusts that fed into it, and then, for whatever reason, some of these trusts went independent.

Dominic Jones: And so when I joined the Mary Rose, we were separate. We had a separate ticket, visitor centre, if you like, so imagine, I guess, like a... You know when you're on holiday and there's people trying to get you to go on boat rides or they're trying to get you to come into their restaurant? And literally, we were competing, so when a visitor was outside, there'd be the Mary Rose saying, "Hey, come and see Henry VIII's warship, the biggest Tudor collection in the world." I mean, it's amazing. And then the people next door, "Hey, come and see the Victory and the Warrior." And it just was really difficult for the customers, and for whatever reason, we weren't together and we had these two separate companies, so for quite a while, when I started, along with Helen, who was the CEO and Dominic and a gentleman called John in NMRN, we had meetings to see if we could get closer and to get a deal, and then I think Matthew joined, as well, from NMRN, and eventually we kind of got to an agreement.

Dominic Jones: It was about, "What can we do together? What, collaboratively, can we do?" We came up with three things. We can sell tickets together, we could run a visitor centre together, so that's #1, the visitor side. We could market the destination together, and we could do strategic operations like events. So we then looked away and came across a deal, and for us, it was important that the two parties, so Mary Rose and the National Museum of the Royal Navy had a 50/50 parity of decision so it wasn't a one-sided joint venture and it was really... There's lots of talent in both organisations, so I've always admired what the National Museum of the Royal Navy have done over the years and how they've told history and how they bring it to life, and obviously, I love the Mary Rose.

Dominic Jones: And so when we put us together, it was just a real opportunity, that synergy. You know when people say "one and one and you get three", but it was exactly like that and it worked really well, so we share marketing, so marketing costs, we share, we share marketing resource, so Mary Rose marketing people work along with NMRN marketing people. We do some things independently so our trusts are independent, our conservation, our research and all that sort of stuff, that's just Mary Rose and NMRN is just that, although we are working on some projects together, but in terms of the visitor, we have one visitor centre, we have one ticket you can buy, lots of options, we could talk about that, some amazing pricing we did which allowed us to do that.

Dominic Jones: Because when you're competing against each other, you almost are encouraged to discount more, so we had, at times, the National Museum of the Royal Navy who were saying Portsmouth Historic Dockyard then might have a deal on Groupon, we might have a deal on Wowcher and you'd just be discounting, discounting, discounting, and you wouldn't be really getting across the real value for the customer, so yeah, it was really hard, and I remember, we would really fight for every single visitor because, for us, 84% of our money comes from tickets, so I remember, we'd get Henry VIII down the front, out the front, we'd have him talking to the visitors, saying, "Oh", you know, and with people talking in French and he'd go up in French and say, "Well, I was the king of France. Why are you going to Victory? Come to Mary Rose." But he wouldn't be taking them away from Victory, because that would be bad, but he would be saying, "Go to both." And we'd always be positive about NMRN, but we'd also want people to come to Mary Rose because that was how we were going to survive.

Kelly Molson: Just going back to those times, then, was it more like a rivalry than anything?

Dominic Jones: Yeah, it was really hard.

Kelly Molson: So it was really difficult?

Dominic Jones: It was really hard. I mean, we all respected each other, but it was really hard. It was like one of those ferry terminals or restaurants on holiday. I mean, I remember, we would flyer, like circus marketing, bumping into the brand, resort domination, we called it. We would be literally, when it was sunny because you can't blame the weather, when it was sunny, we'd be on the beach with Mary Rose leaflets saying, "Hey, get out the cool, we're air-conditioned, come to the Mary Rose." We were literally in all the restaurants, we had colour-in sheets, "Come to...", it was all about getting everyone to come and actually, we quickly realized that the NMRN was spending so much money on getting people to Portsmouth that we needed to make sure when they're in Portsmouth, they came to the Mary Rose and we did.

Dominic Jones: I mean, I look back on it now, we had adverts that had, because we'd been very lucky with Tripadvisor, five stars, I mean I would've dreamed of that at Thorpe Park, but five stars constantly so we'd have posters that say, "You've just missed the best thing to do in Portsmouth." And then another one. "Turn around." You know, like when you go to Camden Town and there's a McDonald's, a Burger King and then outside the Burger King, there's a sign. "Why are you going to Burger King? Go to McDonald's." It was like that, so it wasn't great.

Kelly Molson: It's quite intense, as well, isn't it, for the visitor?

Dominic Jones: Yeah.

Kelly Molson: That's a lot of pressure.

Dominic Jones: Well, it is and I would do it and I would literally go down and leave, because you've got to leave from the front, and I would put my Mary Rose coat, which I've still got here, and I'd be down the scenic and we'd be... And I remember coaches would turn up and one of the ladies who was fantastic with us, Sandra, she's now one of our Visitor Experience Managers, but she'd jump on the couch and say, "Have you booked your tickets? Where are you going? Can I tell you about the Mary Rose?" And she'd bring whole coaches in. It was hard and it was really... I went to sleep every night easy, because it was so tiring and it wasn't sustainable and we did need to get a deal, and actually, the National Museum of the Royal Navy and the Mary Rose always treated each other with respect, but it was like the Battle of Victory Gate and that's not the way to behave and that's not the long-term way to run a business.

Dominic Jones: So what was really great was we've got a deal, we got the ability to sell tickets together and we got the ability to work together and there's some really super talented people in the National Museum of the Royal Navy and in Mary Rose and we did some great things, so when we reopened after COVID, we did this really cool video where we had Henry VIII and we had some of their characters from Warrior and some of their actors all visiting each other's attractions in the lift, wearing face masks, getting hand sanitiser, and it just feels joined up.

Dominic Jones: I mean, I've done lots of partnerships in my career. At Merlin, we had a Sea Life in Helsinki, which was a joint venture with a theme park called Linnanmaki. If you ever get to interview this lady who ran Linnanmaki, or she might the CEO there, she was amazing, but we had this joint venture. See, it's really hard in a joint venture because, especially if it's a 50/50 parity decision one, you've got to get agreement and that means that you work really hard on doing the right thing, so what's quite nice is if we were on our own, we probably would've done marketing campaigns and other things which were okay, but because we end up working together and we've got to make sure we get that joint agreement, the results is always way better. It's brilliant. And the customers benefit, because it's one entrance, it's one ticket, there's a lot more value in it, so yeah, it's been really successful.

Kelly Molson: I hadn't realised quite how intertwined the organisations were in terms of decision-making and marketing, like you say, and sharing all of those resources. You talked a little bit about the visitor centre. Did you have to change the infrastructure and stuff? Did you have to build new buildings and all of that and agree on that?

Dominic Jones: Well, no, they had a big visitor centre because, I mean, they've got a lot more footprint, more attractions, they've got the Warrior, they've got M.33, they've got a Submarine Museum over in Victory and we've got the Mary Rose, which is amazing. And so we had a building called Porter's Lodge, which was here and then there's the gate, and then they had their visitor center and their visitor center was perfect, so we moved in there, but we agreed to make it look and feel like it was Mary Rose and National Museum of the Royal Navy, so we spent a bit of money on the look and feel of it, so that was good and same with the brand and the marketing and making it feel like it was something new, but yeah, so there was a bit of that.

Dominic Jones: I mean, in terms of infrastructure, we went with their ticketing system because it made more sense because it would be a bigger cost for them to change. We went with some of the Mary Rose's media buying because, at the time, we were buying media cheaper and better. And actually, now, we're in the process of going to tenders together, so the digital agency, we've done together, the PR agency, we've done together and it's great because it's a bigger portfolio and you get different views, and I always think the best way to run any business, so, for example, the Mary Rose or Thorpe Park or wherever it is, to talk to your customers, to talk to your staff and then, obviously, to talk to the manage experts. And we get that in spades, because we've also got our staff and our customers and our volunteers, but we've got NMRN staff and customers and volunteers and together, we are getting some really cool ideas and things we can do, so it's working well. As you can see, 150% increase in the first year.

Kelly Molson: I mean, I've read it with my own eyes.

Dominic Jones: And I hope you saw, NMRN, they did a little nice fist bump reply, and it just is in the spirit of it. We are working together and I think that's so important.

Kelly Molson: It is massively important. You mentioned something about pricing earlier, and we've spoken about this before, but you said that you did something interesting that you'd implemented that allowed you to grow the yield and the revenue as well. Was this something that you did jointly too?

Dominic Jones: Yeah, it was. So we had to come up with a new pricing structure because we were doing something new, so they had, what was it called? Full Navy Ticket, which was for all of their attractions and we had an annual ticket, so when we merged, we had to come up with a new pricing structure and it's a good opportunity to change, and 84% of our business, our revenue comes from tickets, theirs is about, I think, 80% or so, I can't remember, so it's still important to them as well. So we had to get the pricing right and it allowed us to really think about what's the best value for the customer and what's the best thing to do that stops us having to discount heavily?

Dominic Jones: So we created a... It's like a decoy pricing model, like supermarkets have been doing it for years, so if you buy one attraction, it's a really bad ticket. I mean, still, a few people buy them, it's a really bad ticket, so it was... I mean, it used to be £18. We put the price up to £24. It used to be, if you bought one ticket, you could visit that attraction all year. You can only visit it once. So we made it a really unattractive ticket, so that's your lower decoy, so the idea of that is you only buy that if all you really want to do is go to the Mary Rose or all you want to go is go to the Victory and if you've just come to see one of those things, that's the sort of money you would pay, it's very competitively priced with other things on the South Coast, so that's what we did.

Dominic Jones: And then we created a Three-Attraction Ticket or Three-Ship Ticket, which was slightly more money, so that went up to £39, which was the biggest sort of sting, about a £15 increase, big, big jump. And that was an annual ticket. That was, you could pick your three attractions and visit them all year. And then we did, "But for £5 more, you could have an Ultimate Explorer and have everything including the..." And that sort of, so you've got the lower decoy, which is the single attraction, then you've got the medium decoy, which is three ships, but then you go, "Well, for £5 more, you could do everything."

Dominic Jones: And 80% of people do the Ultimate Explorer and they do everything, and it's so good value. I mean, it's less than the price of a football game and football game, 50% of the time, you're disappointed, and you don't get long, do you? It is incredible value and you get to go to all the attractions, you get out on the water, it's brilliant. So we've got that. And then we were going to put in an upper decoy, now, an upper decoy is a premium, really expensive ticket, so for example, we might, "We have, at Mary Rose, you can go into the ship for £300 and have a private experience." And we were going to put that in, but actually, because the decoy system worked so well, we didn't need that so we've just kept it as Single Attraction Ticket, Three-Attraction Ticket and Ultimate Explorer and it's working really, really well.

Dominic Jones: So yeah, that's our pricing. And because of that, we don't have to discount because we put all the value and loaded the value in, actually, we don't have to discount. And then, when we do discount, we want to reach the right people, so, for example, we do, between the months of November and February, we do a Loyal and Local campaign where we go out to Portsmouth and Southampton regions and we say, "Bring a bill in and you can get a considerable discount." All year round, we do a discount for people who've got a Portsmouth leisure card, so anyone who's on Universal Credit, so they get 50% off.

Dominic Jones: And we do some other really cool community engagement stuff between us with schools and stuff like that, and then if we do do a discount, so discounts are still important, so there's some amazing partners out there, GetYourGuide, Picnic, lots of the providers that really support businesses, Virgin, Ticketdays, all that sort of stuff. But we do it at the right level, so we've got like a playground, so whereas before, we might have been competing against each other, thinking, "Oh, we need to discount by 40% or 50% and then give them extra commission so they push it." We now do it at a really fair level, so there is a bit of a discount, but it's not much.

Dominic Jones: And then for the consumer, we want the cheapest, best-value ticket to always be on our website. And we used a couple companies, so we used a company called, they were called Brand Incrementum, they're now called Magic Little Giants, we use them, we use some insight into what previous businesses have done before, but we copied the American Six Flags website model. If you ever want a quick lesson in pricing, just go to Six Flags. Their website is that... I mean, you're into websites, right?

Kelly Molson: I am.

Dominic Jones: It's the best website for pricing. I love it and I check it nearly every month. It makes me laugh, how focused they are on decoy pricing and how in-your-face they are, but how you don't know it as a consumer unless you know. It's amazing. It drives my family mad. I love it. Anyway. Yeah.

Kelly Molson: This decoy pricing, I've never heard that phrase, I've never heard that used in pricing before. This is all new to me.

Dominic Jones: It's like supermarkets when you get... And I remember, we've got a local supermarket near us and the guy did, "buy one bottle of wine, get one wine free". And then he had, "or buy one wine for £7 or buy two for £7". We were always going to buy two for £7 or two for £8. It's all that sort of trying to encourage behaviour, but he didn't quite get it because recently, I went in, it was like, "buy one, pay for one" and I was like, "Isn't that... That's the same as normal, yeah?" "Yeah." But he's a nice guy so I bought one. Well, that's my problem.

Dominic Jones: But no, it's the same way supermarkets have been doing, where they try with the club card to get you to purchase things, or they're trying to do that, and all we're trying to do is encourage everyone to go for that Ultimate Explorer, which is the best value. It's almost like you can imagine it on the website, it's got a sign saying, "Pick me." So even to the extent we still don't, this day, discount our Single Attraction Ticket on our website. We don't give any discount for it and then we give a £5 discount on the three attractions and £5 on Ultimate Explorer. But yeah, loving the pricing.

Kelly Molson: Love this. This is such great insight. Thank you for sharing. This partnership is really intriguing to me because I think it seems like the perfect setup, right? Because you're literally neighbors in the same area, you could make this work really well. What advice would you give to other attractions that are thinking about partnering with other attractions? Like what would be your top tips for people to make this work well?

Dominic Jones: I mean, it's really hard. You've got to think about, because often people see it as competitors, but you've got to think in terms of getting the customers or the guests or the consumers, whatever you call them, giving them the best value, and during lockdown, when we were being interviewed and stuff, we'd always say, "Come visit the Mary Rose or come visit..." Once we did the joint venture, "Come visit the Historic Dockyard. But also, if you can't come visit, go visit your local museum, go visit anyone." It's important to share that, and I think there are always benefits of working together, you're always stronger together.

Dominic Jones: When I was at Oakwood Theme Park in Wales, amazing theme park, you're in West Wales and we were thinking, "Well, how do we reach further and advertise more?" And actually, we ended up working with a farm, which was a stunning farm that had rides and animals called Folly Farm down the road and we worked, then, with Manor House Wildlife Park and Heatherton, and you actually work together and you can work together and I'd always say, "Try it on something." So try it whether it's an event or try it whether it's a destination marketing campaign. I mean, we're working with the people of Portsmouth, so with... "The people of Portsmouth", that sounds a bit grand. We're working with attractions in Portsmouth on trying to get people into Portsmouth, so we do something with Portsmouth Council where the Spinnaker Tower and D-Day Museum and Mary Rose and National Museum of the Royal Navy and now Portsmouth Historical Dockyard, together, we advertise in London because actually, advertising in London individually is really expensive, but if you do it collaboratively.

Dominic Jones: There's lots of ways to do stuff collaboratively and find another angle. So we've got other people on our site that we're not partners with at the moment, so the Portsmouth Naval Base Property Trust, amazing people who run some of the small boats that we did the Gunboat Race with the D-Day veterans on the weekend. Fantastic. So yesterday, we had a really great Volunteers' Tea Party to celebrate the end of volunteer and we had the volunteers from the Property Trust, we had the volunteers from the NMRN, the volunteers from the Mary Rose, there's always some synergy and I would say, in any way, find it.

Dominic Jones: Everywhere I've worked, I've tried to get partnerships with local businesses, with other theme parks, with other attractions, because, actually, it's your stronger together, and if you're going, especially, after a local market, because you've always got to love your locals, that's the most important thing. If they see that you actually are the sort of people that work with each other, it makes them almost more proud of you. You remember the Game Makers in the London Olympics in 2012 and how amazing they were and how they did that sort of course where everyone was recommending all this stuff to you, that's kind of what you want, but I would find some common ground, whatever it is.

Dominic Jones: Whether it's lobbying, we found common ground at Thorpe Park with other attractions to lobby the government for things, for VAT to level... Or whether it's in Oakwood, trying to get some advertising to get people from Bristol to cross the bridge to come into Wales or whether it's, I'm trying to think, in Amsterdam, we worked, so Madame Tussauds Amsterdam and Dungeons, which I was responsible for, we worked with Heineken because they had this amazing experience and with Tours & Tickets, so we'd make sure that if anyone came to Amsterdam, they came to our attractions. It's those sort of partnerships, finding the common ground and making it work.

Dominic Jones: And don't be scared of it, because you are always bigger and better together and customers have so much choice, so working together delivers amazing results. I would never want to go back to not being part of a partnership with the National Museum of the Royal Navy and I would love it if we could do more. We are keen to do more with other attractions in the South to get people to come to the South Coast, to come to Hampshire. But yeah, I would definitely do...

Dominic Jones: And also, you get bigger buying power, so say, for example, Merlin are really strong, so they don't necessarily need those with other partners because they can do a campaign in the press, Sun, Days Go Out and you've got all the Merlin attractions, but if you're individual attractions, you can't, so if you do a partnership with your competitors, you can then suddenly say, "Right, well, we want to do a Days Out campaign in the press between all these independent attractions."

Dominic Jones: I mean, it's brilliant. I love it and I love, also, this industry, how collaborative especially the heritage side is. You can say, "Oh, I was thinking about doing this. What do you think?" Or, "What do you think about that?" And everyone will share and everyone is almost willing you to be successful. It's crazy, right? It's one of the best industries in the world. If you were in, I don't know, the restaurant business, you wouldn't be doing that, would you? Or another... It's so good. Anyway, hopefully, that answers your question.

Kelly Molson: Oh, absolutely.

Dominic Jones: I get very passionate about it. I'm so sorry. I love it.

Kelly Molson: I'm so glad that you do because it answered my question perfectly and I think you've given so much value to listeners today in terms of all of the things that you've done, I couldn't have asked for a better response. Thank you. It's a big year for the Mary Rose, isn't it? And I think it would be very right that we talk about that. So it's your 40th year celebration this year, isn't it?

Dominic Jones: Yeah, 40 years since the raising, so 1982, October. I am obviously older than you so I remember watching it on Blue Peter as a child and it was the world's first underwater live broadcast. It was watched by over 60 million people worldwide. I mean, it was amazing of its time and so yeah, 40 years, and because of that, we've now got the world's biggest Tudor collection of everyday life, there's nowhere else in the world you can get closer to Tudor and we've got the biggest maritime salvation, so we've got a lot of plans to celebrate. Unfortunately, the pandemic got in the way. During the pandemic, I'm not going to lie, it was horrific. There were times when we were drawing a list of who we were going to give the keys to, got really, really bad and it got dark for everyone and every museum, every attraction, every business, I'm not trying to say, "Oh, poor us." Everyone had that tough time.

Dominic Jones: But it meant that actually investing, we were going to do another building, we were going to do a whole museum dedicated to the raising and actually, probably one of the best things that came out of it is we didn't because we got the joint venture, which is brilliant, our trading improved, we had a fantastic summer and then we were like, "Right, we should really do something for the 40th anniversary, but we can't afford taking another lease of another building or building another building, so what can we do?" And we managed to come up with a few plans, so the first thing we're doing is we're doing a TV documentary, which is going to be brilliant, coming out in October. Honestly, I've seen, they started some of the filming and the pre [inaudible 00:37:39], it's going to be brilliant.

Kelly Molson: Oh, that's so exciting.

Dominic Jones: I can't give too much away because we've had to sign something, but it's going to be great. And actually, we even had, because we're responsible for the wreck site, so we had Chris and Alex who helped raise the Mary Rose, our Head of Interpretation, Head of Research, amazing people, they were out diving the other day because we're still responsible for the wreck site and it just gives you goosebumps. I saw the footage and oh, it's amazing. So we got that. We're also building a 4D experience.

Dominic Jones: So when we reopened last summer, we opened with this thing called 1545, which was an immersive experience and we wanted to get across the Mary Rose didn't sink on its maiden voyage, it was Henry VIII's ship that he, when he came to the throne, he commissioned two ships, the Mary Rose was one of them, it fought in lots of battles, it had a long life and then sank defending Britain in a battle, by the way, the French who were invading was twice the size of the Spanish Armada, but because history's written by the winners, we don't hear that.

Dominic Jones: But amazing, so we did this amazing, immersive experience. We got Dame Judi Dench to do the voice and you feel like you're going to get sunk. Well, the ship does sink and you go under and then you go into the museum and it's so good and we were like, "We want to do something for the end. We want to have a finale that says..." Because the thing about our museum, it's authentic. There's 19,700 artifacts. You can't get that anywhere else. I mean, it's just brilliant. Anyway, so we thought, "How are we going to end this?" And the thing we don't do justice to is the finding, the raising, the excavation, all the divers, there was 500 volunteer divers. From the 1960s, people were looking for it.

Dominic Jones: I mean, Alexander McKee, who found it, was on the news and people would say... It was like an Indiana Jones movie, they were saying, "Oh, he's never going to find it." And other people were looking, the Navy were looking and there was a bit in Indiana Jones where they got the map the wrong way around and all of that. Brilliant. So they found the Mary Rose and then they got Margaret Rule who was this amazing lady who had, when she went to university, I think she didn't get a place at university at first because she was a woman and this is amazing, today's day story, and she didn't dive, she was an archeologist. And then she said, "I'm going to dive." Taught herself to dive and without her, this museum, the Mary Rose wouldn't be here, so Alexander McKee, Margaret Rule, two amazing people, both of them...

Kelly Molson: What a woman.

Dominic Jones: Yeah, what a woman, but both of them, both of them, without them, we wouldn't be here. So we want to tell their story, but also, we want to put the guests and the visitors to what it's like to dive, so with a mixture of real-life filming, footage from these 500 volunteer divers, outtakes from the Chronicle programs that are on the BBC, including, if we can get it to look right, even His Royal Highness, Prince Charles diving. It is stunning.

Dominic Jones: So we're going to take the guests on a bit of a pre-show with the history, then they're going to get into the 4D theater and it'd be like you were boarding a red, going out to the wreck site, there'll be a dive briefing, you'll have the wind in your hair, the seats will be buzzing, but I'm hoping it's this good. I better ring the people after this [inaudible 00:40:38].

Kelly Molson: You're really building it up, Dominic.

Dominic Jones: Yeah. Well, it better deliver. No, they're brilliant. Figment are amazing. They're so good. So you get in there and then you dive and then you go down and you see what it's like to be under the water. The Royal Engineers were involved, the divers were involved and then you'll be there when the Mary Rose is raised, we're even going to recreate the moment where it... Oh, it'll be brilliant.

Dominic Jones: So in answer to your question, we're doing a documentary and a 4D experience, and we've got anniversary lectures so if you're around in October, come and get involved. We've got a lot of people, from historians to divers to... Just talking about the relevance of the Mary Rose and the history of it, and also the diving, and we've got a new coffee table book coming out, so we've got lots and lots and lots going on.

Kelly Molson: Oh, my goodness. It's all going on.

Dominic Jones: And if we'd have done it the old way, if we'd have done it with a new museum and a new building, I don't think it would've been as good. I mean, I joined the Divers' Legacy group, so about 150 of the divers, on a Zoom call a few weeks ago and it's just, it takes you... These people, who, some of them are retired now or bear in mind this was 40, 50 years ago and hearing their stories and it's living history and it's so important that we tell these stories and capture them now, because in 50 years, they won't be here, and part of our responsibility, our charity objectives, if you like, is to tell the story and forever, and I think that bit of the story's missing, so if that's one thing that we do while I'm at the Mary Rose, I'll be really proud.

Kelly Molson: Ah, that is wonderful. And it is [inaudible 00:42:12].

Dominic Jones: You have to come, right? You're going to have to come.

Kelly Molson: Well, this is the question. When do I need to come to experience everything that you've just sold to me? Because I am sold.

Dominic Jones: Yeah. You probably want to come after our anniversary, because we're hoping to launch all this around that time, which is in October, which is, now, this is an interesting one because this was a good conversation with our trustees and our board. "Do you want to launch something in the off-peak period? Don't you want to launch it at Easter or the summer or..." And my view is we should launch it because it's the right thing to do and we're launching this in October because it's a legacy, we want the divers there, we want as many of them there as possible and it's going to be at the Mary Rose forever. This is the ending to the Mary Rose Museum. So it's not like we're launching something for Easter or summer, so we are going to launch it in October, so I'll let you know the details, come and get involved.

Kelly Molson: All right, absolutely. I am there. If it's as good as what you've just described, then it's going to be one amazing day out.

Dominic Jones: It'd be better. And then, and final thing, sorry, which we're not doing, but I wanted to do is we've still got some of the Mary Rose down in the ocean, so one day, I'd like to bring that back up. I don't think I'll be here to do that because it's probably be in 15 years' time or something because we need to raise a lot of money and do that, but we want to bring the rest of her back up or whatever's left down there back up, and that's quite exciting because our story continues. We still do research.

Dominic Jones: We did this fantastic piece of research on skeletons, on human remains. It's a really cool diversity story. Out of the eight skeletons, one was Spanish, one was Venetian, two were North African, second generation, not slaves, a real diversity story in Tudor England. Amazing. Maybe the Victorians whitewashed history. Who knows? But what a great story. And we keep learning and we've got this amazing team of curatorial staff and all of our staff, from the maintenance to the visitor staff to the volunteers and every day, we learn something new, so [inaudible 00:44:03] we want to do. And then, at some point... Have you seen The Dig on Netflix?

Kelly Molson: Yes. Yes.

Dominic Jones: Great film.

Kelly Molson: So good.

Dominic Jones: Great film, but I want to write to Netflix to do The Dive. Can you imagine? This story about human endeavor with the Mary Rose? It'd be amazing, so we'd like to do that as well at some point, but we just don't have enough hours in the day, right?

Kelly Molson: No. Just add it onto that long list of stuff.

Dominic Jones: Yeah.

Kelly Molson: Wow. Thank you.

Dominic Jones: So if you know anyone in Netflix, let us know, or if anyone from Netflix is listening, get in touch, we want to do that. It'd be cool.

Kelly Molson: I would love it.

Dominic Jones: I've already casted.

Kelly Molson: If someone from Netflix was listening, that would be incredible. Who have you casted?

Dominic Jones: Well, so local, because you've got to get local, so for Margaret Rule, I reckon Kate Winslet, she'd do a good job. Great actress. I mean, we've already got Dame Judi Dench, so the same sort of caliber in our 1545 experience, and then also another local who could bring the Alexander McKee, Kenneth Branagh, but to be honest with you, Netflix can do all of that, because let's be honest, I'm not going to make movies, am I? I'm running a museum. But I just think it'd be really cool. It'd be really cool.

Kelly Molson: I don't think there's anything that you couldn't do, Dominic, to be honest, after this podcast, so who knows?

Dominic Jones: It'd be really cool. Yeah, who knows?

Kelly Molson: All right, last question for you, a book that you love that you'd recommend to our listeners?

Dominic Jones: I love this question and I really struggled, so I went back and thought about a work example, because I think that's probably more useful, so in all of my career, I've come across lots of people who talk about strategy and I have my own view on what strategy is, but there are lots of books you can read about strategy and there's only one book, in my opinion, that is worth reading and it's this, Good Strategy/Bad Strategy. Hopefully, it's still in print. It is the only book to read on strategy. It's the best book I've... And without this book, I don't think I would've been able to do half the stuff that I've done, because it's all about how you formulate your decisions, how you make your decisions, what the outcome is, it's about execution, it's about everything that, for me, you need to be successful, so I recommend this book. Really good book.

Kelly Molson: Good Strategy/Bad Strategy. I have not read that book, but I feel like that's going to go...

Dominic Jones: You should read it.

Kelly Molson: Yeah, that's going to go top of my pile. All right, listeners, if you want to win a copy of this book, as ever, if you just go over to our Twitter account and you retweet this podcast announcement with the words, "I want Dominic's book." And then you will be in with a chance of winning it. Oh, my goodness. I have had such a good time listening to you today. Thank you so much for coming on and sharing. It's been so valuable. Yeah, that's blown me away today. I'm very excited about coming to visit and thank you for sharing the insight into your partnerships.

Dominic Jones: Yeah. Absolute pleasure. And thanks for being kind with the icebreakers, you're going to get the rubber, that's going to your collection.

Kelly Molson: Oh, yay. A rubber rubber.

Dominic Jones: Because I was really upset that you've got a rubber collection without the Mary Rose. That actually hurt my feelings. It hurt my feelings.

Kelly Molson: Well, I'm sorry, I've never actually visited the Mary Rose.

Dominic Jones: Well, we're going to put that right.

Kelly Molson: We are going to change this, aren't we? So yeah, I'm sorry. I will come and get my rubber in-person, then. Don't post it to me. I'll come and get it in-person when I come and visit.

Dominic Jones: Yeah, let's do that. Thank you. Keep it up.

Kelly Molson: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five-star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned. Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website, rubbercheese.com/podcast.

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