Skip the Queue

Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is  Kelly Molson, MD of Rubber Cheese.

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Show references:

www.backlooper.com

www.backlooper.com/checklist

Your 7-step checklist to getting the most out of your guest feedback

twitter.com/Joshua_Liebman

www.linkedin.com/in/joshualiebman

www.attractionpros.com

Transcription:

Kelly Molson:

Welcome to Skip the Queue, a podcast for people working in or working with visitor attractions. I'm your host, Kelly Molson. Each episode, I speak with industry experts from the attractions world. 

In today's episode, I speak with Joshua Leibman, Founder of BackLooper and Co-Host of the brilliant AttractionPros Podcast. We discuss guests experience, customer loyalty, and managing negative feedback on social media. If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels, by searching Skip the Queue. 

Kelly Molson:

Josh, it is so lovely to have you on the podcast today, thank you for joining me.

Joshua Liebman:

Kelly, thank you so much for having me, I'm glad to be here.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah, it's great. I am very excited to chat. So we had a really good chat last week, on your fabulous podcast AttractionPros. We'll talk about that in a little while, but as you know, because I do know that you're an avid listener of Skip the Queue, so you're prepared for our ice-breaker round. So I've got a few questions that I'm going to kick off with.

Joshua Liebman:

All right, I'm as prepared as I can be.

Kelly Molson:

Okay, nobody gets to prepare for this, that is the fun bit. Right, what is the best thing for a ride that you've ever been on?

Joshua Liebman:

Oh, Millennium Forest at Cedar Point, Sandusky, Ohio.

Kelly Molson:

Oh, why is it your favorite? Why is it so good?

Joshua Liebman:

So many great things about it. There's the aesthetic appeal of it, it's just that it's an amazing structure while you're on it. You have an amazing view of not only in the park but also Lake Erie, the Sandusky Bay, the speed and the pacing that it picks up. It's a smooth ride, but not so smooth that it feels like you're sitting on your living room couch, and you hit the brake run going at more than 60 miles an hour, so it never lets up throughout the entire ride experience.

Kelly Molson:

Oh, I like it. See you describing that, that makes me think that you've been on a lot of rides. There was a real depth of experience. Okay, all right, next one. If you could only watch one film for the rest of your life, what would it be?

Joshua Liebman:

Can it be a three-way tie for the entire Back to the Future trilogy, or do I just have to pick one?

Kelly Molson:

No, I can accept that, I think that's fair. Yeah, Back to the Future tri... Is it a tie between one, two, and three for you?

Joshua Liebman:

I like to think it is. I think I've seen it enough to now be able to point out some areas in some of the films that were maybe lacking during some others, and then watching some director's commentary and seeing their validation for that. But maybe that only enhances the appreciation for it, so it's tough to say.

Kelly Molson:

Okay, I have got a really vivid memory of going on the Back to the Future ride, four times on the truck with my parents, years ago in Florida. That was a brilliant ride.

Joshua Liebman:

It sure was.

Kelly Molson:

I'm probably aging myself as well because it's not there anymore.

Joshua Liebman:

Yeah, it's been gone since I want to say 2007 or so. So yeah, it was ahead of its time and may it rest in peace, we'll always have the memory. I actually the DVD box set of the trilogy, but I also have a DVD of the original just because as a bonus feature, it has the ride footage on it. 

Kelly Molson:

Ah, right?

Joshua Liebman:

Been a while since I've watched it, but if I wanted to relive the ride, I can.

Kelly Molson:

Whoa, that is it. I would probably do that, I'm not going to lie. That would bring back some really good memories for me. Okay, have you ever been told you look like someone famous? And who was it?

Joshua Liebman:

You know, what's funny is we were actually just talking about this on the AttractionPros podcast, not too long ago, because we had a guest who was mistaken for Nicholas Cage at it. It was David Rosenberg, who was the former chair of IAAPA, he was talking about that. I've gotten a couple, I would say about 20 years ago, I used to get Dustin Diamond who played Screech on Saved by the Bell.

Kelly Molson:

Oh, okay.

Joshua Liebman:

I never took it as an insult, I don't think anybody meant it negatively. So I was always flattered by that. But then when I got into college, more people started to say, Keanu Reeves, which I think is probably more flattering, right?

Kelly Molson:

It's definitely more flattering. 100% more flattering.

Joshua Liebman:

But I could graduate.

Kelly Molson:

I can say anything with Keanu there, yeah. Yeah, Keanu was great. Yeah, It's not much of a toss-up really, is it? Okay, and then last ice breaker before the unpopular, if you had your own late-night talk show, who would you invite on as your first guest? I feel like you kind of have, right? You've got a podcast, but this is slightly different.

Joshua Liebman:

Who would I invite as my first guest? I've always wanted to sit down and just have a casual conversation with Jimmy Buffett, the singer, songwriter. He's got some great stories to tell and he just sounds like the kind of person that you could just sit and have either a beer or a margarita with, which we would do on my late-night talk show, of course. And just chat about life. I mean, hear some stories.

Kelly Molson:

Right there. Yeah, you've got to have someone that's got good stories as your guest definitely. Right, okay, last one. I asked this of everyone, so this is probably one that you are able to prepare. Tell me your unpopular opinion. So this is something that you believe to be true that almost nobody agrees with you on.

Joshua Liebman:

I think Nickelback, is a treasure to the world of music. 

Kelly Molson:

Whoa.

Joshua Liebman:

Maybe not that far, but I don't think they deserve nearly all the hate and the flax that they get. I've seen them in concert a couple of times, paid for the ticket, I thought it was an entertaining experience and I've never really seen why they are the most hated band in history.

Kelly Molson:

So I always questioned how controversial these are going to be,` I feel like-

Joshua Liebman:

But I was going, "Do we continue the interview? Is anyone still listening now?"

Kelly Molson:

It's fine, we can carry on Josh. Whether people will unsubscribe or not, I don't know. It's a worry.

Joshua Liebman:

Hopefully, I can make up for it with the rest of it.

Kelly Molson:

I have no doubt in you, Josh, I've got absolute faith. Thank you for sharing that.

Joshua Liebman:

Thank you for letting me share. Sometimes I have to open up, every once in a while.

Kelly Molson:

It's good to let it out, right. I want to know, listen, that you did lots of exciting things to start with, so the founder of BackLooper, which I have to say is a brilliant name, cohost of the brilliant AttractionPros podcast. You've worked at Disney World, Universal, Merlin, Cedar Fair, I want to know a little bit about your background, but also want to know what it was that first drew you to the attractions world.

Joshua Liebman:

Sure, absolutely. So, I like to say that I was a consumer of the product, prior to joining the industry and whenever my wife hears me say that, she'll interrupt and she'll say, "Josh is obsessed with roller coasters." And okay, maybe we're both right, right? I mean, both statements can be very true. It definitely started as a hobby when I was a kid and growing up, and wanting to learn more about really I would say the amusement park industry, the theme park industry. And then right when I graduated high school, I got a job as a ride operator at Cedar Point on Millennium Force, my favorite roller coaster. 

Kelly Molson:

Great.

Joshua Liebman:

So if anything, that only grew my passion and excitement for the industry. And what I really enjoyed about that first job as a frontline employee, was having been a consumer or an enthusiast for so many years of being able to get that look behind the curtain, and being able to see the business operation that was going on, and so much that goes on behind the scenes that make it look like nothing happened, right?

Joshua Liebman:

That makes it look like you flipped on a switch when the park's open for the day. And I really remember wanting to learn more and more about that, so I then took on more roles within the industry. I moved to Orlando and when I was working for Disney, I ended up getting my degree in Theme Park Management from the University of Central Florida, went back got my Master's Degree in Hospitality and Tourism, worked for Universal while I was in Orlando, opened a park in Myrtle Beach. It was Hard Rock Park in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, that was an amazing Summer. Opened LEGOLAND in Winter Haven, Florida, so Lego LEGOLAND Florida. Part of my training, I came out to The UK, spent some time in Windsor at LEGOLAND there.

Kelly Molson:

Great.

Joshua Liebman:

And also some other Merlin properties spent some time at Alton Towers, the most beautiful park in the world, hands down, spent some time at Chessington and at Third Park, and opened another small park in Southwest Florida.

Joshua Liebman:

And really became very, very passionate about not just the theme park side of it, not just the ride side of it, I was always able to keep that from a hobby standpoint, but being able to look into not just the business operations, but I really fell in love with the guest experience and the hospitality component of what makes our industry so great and really what makes us so special and how different of an experience it is when you are going to, whether it's a theme park, or whether it's a botanic garden, or a historic home, whether it's a for-profit or a non-profit attraction, it could be a zoo, museum, aquarium, that there is something very special about that experience and the people that you're sharing it with, that is so different than I guess I would say the essential services.

Joshua Liebman:

And I say this in air quotes, because that's just become such a popular term throughout COVID, of a term I quickly did not like from the beginning, or particularly the nonessential term, because what we do very much is just so essential to bringing people together and providing the escapism that we all need in life and we've never needed that more than we need it right now. So that is where my interest and my passion in the industry grew.

Joshua Liebman:

And yeah, I still love riding as many roller coasters as I have, and visiting new theme parks that I haven't been to and trying out the latest, whatever food you can fry and put it on a stick, yeah, I'll do that all day long. And then, from the business side of things of looking at how the guest experience implemented into the operation and having that guest experience mentality, drives not just the hospitality and the positive service components, but also really tying it back to the bottom line. So, using service and guest experience to increase per capita spending, your spend per head, and increasing membership, and increasing annual passes, and increasing positive word of mouth, and tying it in with online reviews. So these are all interconnected and that it's not an afterthought by any means to provide good or great service, or to have that guest experience mentality. It all should be very much interwoven into the business.

Kelly Molson:

And I guess that brings us to where you are now, which is your new company and I say it's new because it's really new, isn't it? So BackLooper was founded in September 2020. So I'm calling this a Corona company. So this launched an incredibly challenging time for not only the world but for the sector that you do work in. Can you tell us what it's about and how you've come to set this up now on your own?

Joshua Liebman:

Sure, absolutely. So, I'll back it up a little bit too, and say that BackLooper's very much an evolution of a lot that I've been working on, a lot that I've been consulting on for several years. Prior to focusing on BackLooper full time, I was with Amusement Advantage for the previous five years. Amusement Advantage is a Mystery Shop company specifically within the Attractions Industry, about 25 years old. And when I came on about five years ago, it was really to build the company's Consulting Division and to help grow the Mystery Shop account management and sales from that standpoint as well. And one of the consulting services that I had, that I even brought prior to Amusement Advantage, that was run under that umbrella was this Feedback Analysis Program that I'd been developing for several years.

Joshua Liebman:

So this goes back at least five or six years or so, from this interest in measuring consumer sentiment. So really being able to take a broad look at the operation and looking at each guest's experience as an individual, both from the micro-level, and then from the macro level and saying, "How does this guest and particularly their experience fit into the big picture, and the broader whole experience that we are providing?" So BackLooper came about around last year, maybe last summer or so, as this evolution of a consulting service that I was providing, where now we were really able to tie-in the guest feedback collection component and be able to increase the amount of data that they were getting, compared to using the existing amount that maybe was coming in passively, or that we're pulling from online reviews. And so it came to full circle.

Joshua Liebman:

So now BackLooper was able to be the feedback driver as well, that then helps the operator respond to it too. And throughout, a what'd you say, a Corona company?

Kelly Molson:

Corona company, yeah.

Joshua Liebman:

Throughout the lockdown, throughout when much of everything else was shut down, I really had the time. Just like everybody else, we didn't have much, but we had time to focus on what is BackLooper really doing? What are the elements of it? What is the value that it can provide and should provide, particularly during these times? And really giving the operators the opportunity to bring guests into the conversation, to share what's important to them as far as how the business is being run. Now, prior to COVID, yeah, cleanliness and sanitation were common points of feedback that would come up, but now we're looking at it through a different lens of saying, "I'm not going to come back because you weren't clean enough." That might be a comment that people might have.

Joshua Liebman:

Obviously, before COVID, no one was commenting on how well attractions were enforcing mask policies or not. Now people are saying, "I had a bad experience because no one was wearing a mask." And of course, there's the flip side of that too, of the people who were saying, "I believe you're enforcing mask policies" and that's, I would say, a whole other conversation obviously. But people are very much concerned about how comfortable they will be visiting an attraction. And so this is the type of feedback that I want to help operators collect, and I don't want them to learn about it from TripAdvisor, or from online review sites where really the damage is already done.

Kelly Molson:

Oh yeah. There's something that I read that you put, that was a brilliant statement and you said, "Every organization has flaws, you shouldn't be learning about yours from social media" and I thought yeah, absolutely, it shouldn't get to the point where people are posting negativity about what's happening in your organization on social media, you should know about it before. So this is what BackLooper solves.

Joshua Liebman:

Exactly. Yeah, it can be a buffer between what might be a bad experience, or a guest who has a concern or a complaint, and that negative review. So even a negative review is a source of information. It gives you something to work on, but you're sharing this in the public spotlight. And even as you're trying to resolve that, you don't necessarily have the guest's contact information, you're trying to reply as best you can to maybe get them to call you, or get them to email you, but it's swimming upstream and that's one of the things that Backlooper can really help solve by saying, "Hey, here are the complaints, they're a private channel and here's the guest contact information, and we're flagging this one has a higher-urgency, you need to get a hold of them first, because now they run the risk of sharing negative word-of-mouth, of posting a negative review, of having a negative experience linger beyond just the initial visit." And we now have an opportunity to win their business back.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah, because I guess you will try to put that barrier in place where, we've seen it happen, somebody will post something negatively on social media, people will join in on that. And it kind of escalates to a point that it didn't need to before you've potentially had a chance to nip it in the bud or speak to somebody directly. And it's not good for anybody viewing that. So that's fantastic that you can put that barrier in place. Because social media is part of our world now there's no getting away from it whatsoever.

Joshua Liebman:

Yeah, and we can't stop people from posting a negative review, but whatever we can put in place, we're finding that we're intercepting a lot of feedback that would become negative reviews. And so while it's not going to eliminate it altogether, by substantially reducing it, is a huge protection bubble for your business's reputation.

Kelly Molson:

And so, then the data and the information that's collected there, you can then use that to improve the service that you had. So you'll turn in what could have potentially been a negative situation into a real positive for your organization.

Joshua Liebman:

Yep, so there is a two-fold approach to the feedback that comes in through BackLooper. And one of them is the guest service element, and the guest feedback and response component of it, and then the other piece of it is identifying trends and the trend analysis, so that's where we have the micro view in the macro view. So from that guest, that individual who's providing feedback, whether it's positive or negative, hopefully, there's some form of followup and yeah, that follow-up could be different if the guest had a raving positive experience versus a guest who's got a negative experience that needs to be dealt with now, the operator's got the opportunity to have that follow-up and that continued conversation with the guest, put in place any type of service recovery that they need to, if there's any kind of compensation that needs to go into effect for a future visit, they've got the opportunity to quickly, like you said, nip that in the bud solve that quickly.

Joshua Liebman:

And then now we take that data, and like I said, we determine how much does this fit into the greater piece of the puzzle? Or how big is this piece in the big picture, and being able to say, "All right this guest complained about crowds and wait time and service, but they said the food was great, and the admission's employee was very friendly." All of those types of comments, they build up and you're able to pick out the trends and really identify, all right, what are the top concerns that we need to address. Because each feedback on its own is one guest experience and should be resolved for that guest individually. And then as far as looking at what changes and what improvements need to be made, ideally that should be done with a large amount of data and that aggravated data, so you can quantify the demand from your guests and be able to put those systems in place.

Joshua Liebman:

And then by being able to continually watch those trends, and watch that data come in, you're able to measure the success of the improvements that you're making, so you can make any tweaks and adjustments. Because that's the exciting thing about operations, is that it's never done, right? Especially, for locations that are open, that are regularly operating, that are serving desks, that this continual flow of data allows for the operation to continually improve. And one thing that I've always said is when it comes to guest experience, there is no ceiling, there is no limit whatsoever, you can always get better, you can always improve your operation, you can always improve the service that you provide. So guest experience is something that can only get bigger and bigger, there's no cap, there's no plateau to it.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah, it's interesting what you said about the operation side, it's never done, it's never finished and that's certainly the case at the moment, isn't it? With the situation that we're in, in terms of COVID, and how things are changing quite rapidly for every couple of weeks, something changes where you need to tweak how you're operating. You posted something about six months ago on LinkedIn that I really loved. So there's a statement that you put out and this must've been at the start of the pandemic. And it said, "The first guest to visit you when you reopen are your most loyal, make sure they know, you know that."

Kelly Molson:

And I thought that it's lovely. It's a really lovely statement and I think it really felt like it was from the heart because obviously you work in an industry that you're so deeply passionate about, and you could see the situation that was occurring. For any of our listeners that are still preparing to open, and there are quite a few that I haven't been able to open yet, what do you think the best way for them to do that would be, in terms of that kind of guest experience?

Joshua Liebman:

Sure, absolutely. So looking six months back, when I posted that and thinking if I were to update that in any way, that this could apply to those who are still preparing to reopen, and even for those who have opened and looking at what they're doing, that I would say the updated version of this would be, anyone who visits you in 2020 is your most loyal. And the second part of that statement is the part that I think is really important and that's, "Make sure they know, you know that." So it's one thing to have this internal message or this internal communication of your company of even saying, "Hey, the first people who are going to walk through our doors or everyone who's visiting us now, they are the people that have shown us that we are worth visiting in 2020, that with this heightened concerned, with this decreased consumer confidence with so many restrictions in place they've given us the opportunity to serve them.

Joshua Liebman:

And so it's one thing to have that internal message and that's incredibly important, but that needs to then translate to the front of the house, and to those guests who are coming back, who are giving you that chance. So that's going to vary based of each particular operation, or each particular business, but it starts with getting to the hospitality of it and incorporating as many thank yous as possible into the verbiage. And just, what is it that you were doing to show that appreciation? Because if you're operating or if you're planning to reopen like it's business as usual, something's going to be off. It's not really going to work as well as you intended to because business these days is anything but usual. So that additional component, whether you are putting up signage that says, "Thank you for it." And it's not just thank you for visiting, but it's "Thank you for giving us the opportunity to provide you with the experience that we want you to have."

Joshua Liebman:

And maybe that's more wordy than some signage can do, but that's the message that you really want to project to the guests and just always showing that appreciation for every single guest who walks through the door. And when I posted that and really the thought process behind it came from something I've been saying for many years, when the economy was booming everywhere of, what does it look like when a guest walks in your doors or walks through your gates? That what are the alternatives that they had to visiting you? And what is your competition? And that competition could be your direct competition, it could be another similar type of attraction in your geographic region, or it could just be another way of that person spending their discretionary dollars, spending their discretionary time, or it could be nothing to do with any of this.

Joshua Liebman:

I would do a number of guest experience training workshops, and whether this was an aquarium, or an amusement park, or a family entertainment center, or a zoo, I would say, "Do you compete with Netflix?" And put the Netflix logo and say, "Yeah." If I'm sitting at home, binge-watching The Last Dance, my wife and I had been watching The Michael Jordan.

Kelly Molson:

That's the one.

Joshua Liebman:

And I would update that, then depending on the title, I'd say, "Stranger Things," I'd say, "Tiger King." But sitting at home and doing that, means that I'm not getting up and visiting your attraction. So, always showing that appreciation and always having that thought quickly go through your mind, that not only are we, this term we all hate, nonessential, right? Because we don't need attractions for the food, water, shelter, component of our life, health safety. 

Joshua Liebman:

It is this, as we go up that ladder or Maslow's hierarchy of needs that it's something that we do because we want to do, and not only do we not need to do it, but there's so many other things, there's an infinite amount of things that we could be doing, that whenever a guest walks in your door, whether it's during COVID, whether it's a time of economic prosperity, whether it's during a recession, whatever it is, there were so many other things that they could have done. And there was a lot of intentionality behind getting up and coming to your attraction. Some places have maybe more curb appeal than others. Maybe you're walking down the street and there's a mini-golf course, and we're going to stop in, others require really planning an entire day, or planning an entire week, or planning an entire trip around visiting your attraction.

Joshua Liebman:

So that person showing up, they weren't just planted there, there was so much thought process that went into just deciding that this is what we were going to do with our time today. So, that should always be recognized and that should always be part of the guest experience mentality, then you'd layer in COVID with all of this. And one of the things I started saying at the beginning of the shutdown is, with that Netflix mentality, "What else are we competing with?" We're competing with fear, we're competing with financial decline, we're competing with consumer confidence levels being lower. And that again, every desk that visits you, you've proven to them that you're more worth it than all of these other uncertainties that we have in life right now.

Kelly Molson:

I love that. I think that what we've seen is a real increase in actually really positive feedback and testimonials from the attractions that we work with, and the guests that have been going to them, because throughout this time, when they've been able to go back and visit them, it's meant that, that attraction has helped them make some really positive memories of this situation. So, the feedback's been really positive. I wanted to ask you as a guest experience professional, what's the best piece of customer feedback that you've, that you've ever read?

Joshua Liebman:

Sure. So, this is something I've been thinking about recently as far as if there was any particular feedback that I've read that was most helpful, and really thinking about what goes into a guest providing very useful feedback. And I actually recently found the very first blog post that I ever wrote, which was I can't remember seven or eight years ago, and it was about complaint tactics. And it was interesting because the article was geared towards consumers of saying, "Here are the best ways to complain." It was almost like, "Hey, we want to help you resolve your complaints, here's how you can give us feedback." And it had to do with being logical and being level-headed, but not being afraid to be constructive or pointing out those flaws in an operation, as long as they're being done through a private channel.

Joshua Liebman:

And this can be very small things and this could be much larger things. When I launched BackLooper on the day of the launch and the announcement, I got so much positive feedback and people would say, "Well, congratulations, best of luck," all of that. And then someone sent me a message on LinkedIn and said, "Hey, really excited about this, I wanted to point out, you have a small typo on your website. I'm sure that you maybe you didn't notice that and you'll want to fix that." And I said, "Thank you so much for telling me this, yeah, I've fixed it, I've corrected it, no, I didn't notice it." That's obviously a really small example.

Joshua Liebman:

And then I was thinking, what's on maybe not the complete opposite end of the spectrum, but I did a guest experience workshop for a client about a year-and-a-half or so ago and we sent out a survey to all of the frontline staff members who attended, and we specifically said, "What did you enjoy about the workshop and what could have made it better?" And there was a lot of people who said that they really enjoyed it. And there was also a lot of feedback that came in as well of people saying, "I wish Josh would have talked more about this particular aspect, or I wish this was looked at from this angle or less of this because I don't think that really applied to our department. And one or two people said, "Hey, I didn't really enjoy it very much because of XYZ, fill in the blank."

Joshua Liebman:

And some of that feedback can be tough to swallow. So any feedback that really grounds you, is sometimes the best feedback that you need because I was able to take all of these constructive critical elements of feedback and I made my training program so much better. I was so much more proud of the next time that I delivered it and was able to fine-tune and was able to really use the feedback that people provided me, to be able to make those adjustments. Now, thankfully there was also a lot of overwhelming positive feedback, so I was able to balance out, I need to feed my ego just a little bit, but I really wanted to hear from people, what did you not enjoy about this? And that's really one of the big components with BackLooper too, of we really want to be able to elicit that type of response from people that we're not just looking for, everything was great, don't change a thing.

Joshua Liebman:

We get that type of feedback a lot from guests and that's fine. And then every so often it might be these particular components of saying, "The food was too cold, your prices are too high, I wish you were open later, you let too many people in your... your building's not at capacity." Whatever it is that really helps the operator make those fine-tune changes to their operation. So anything that... to answer your question, the best type of feedback is ideally provided through a private channel, sent to you personally, especially if it's going to be criticism in any way and done within a logical level-headed mindset, that, of course, we're doing the best we can, we have very high standards.

Joshua Liebman:

If there is a complaint in any way that the guest hopefully knows that this is not typical, and hopefully that's why they are complaining because they're saying, "Hey, I'm sure that your service standards are higher than what I experienced, but I have to let you know, that the team member that I encountered in your gift shop was very rude to me." So that type of feedback, sometimes it can be, it's a pill one swallow, but you need that type of information, so you can take the appropriate action with the guests, maybe take the appropriate action, maybe with that team member, and then put that in place and saying, "Okay, is this a fluke? Is this a single instance? Or is this something that is a longer-term fix and a larger problem than maybe we would not have otherwise known, had we not gotten the feedback?"

Kelly Molson:

So I guess the flip side of that is, what's the worst format for feedback. And I guess we've talked about that a little bit, which is social media, isn't it? That's almost the worst level because that's putting it out in the public domain. It's not addressing it to somebody privately, it's putting it out there for all to see. So can you share any tips that you might have for attractions to manage negative feedback on social media?

Joshua Liebman:

Sure, yeah, absolutely. And social media can be your best friend. I don't want to stand here and say, "Social media is terrible, you don't want to get any online reviews." That is really... you want to make sure that you're using that to really boost your reputation, but specifically with your guests who have proven that they are satisfied. And you want to collect as much feedback privately first, before recommending to post online. Otherwise, yeah, you do run the risk of online reviews really starting to chip away at your reputation. So when you do, whether it's an online review site or whether it's through social media, that negative feedback, the first thing that needs to be acknowledged is that, whatever you're about to do to respond is in a public arena. You are in the spotlight basically, and you've got the opportunity to alleviate the concern of any potential reader or any potential user of social media, or you have the opportunity to really make it worse.

Joshua Liebman:

And I've seen very strong examples of both of those. And the first is really, if it is a subjective, if it is a perception or opinion based complaint of stressing that what they are describing, is not the experience you intended for your guests to have. And the verbiage of that is very specific because you're not necessarily talking about what happened at this time, your response is referring to what it is that the guest described. So you were responding not to the event, you're responding to the post. So if they say something like, "Your facility is very dirty, and your staff is very unfriendly." You want to respond not by saying, "I'm sorry that the facility was dirty, and the staff was unfriendly during your visit, but you're responding to their description of their experience." So saying, "Based on what you described, this is not the standard we expect for our guests and I apologize if there was any inconvenience from your visit, based on your experience." Again, based on what you're describing. 

Joshua Liebman:

So the first is really acknowledging that, "Hey, if there's this complaint here that we want to stress this is not normal." Then next you want to really convert this to an offline channel. So you want to provide a phone number. You can provide an email address, I say a phone number because you know that if the guest calls, then hopefully they'll be able to have their issue resolved quicker. And yes, even putting that phone number, putting that name, putting that contact information right there in the response, and also really stressing the urgency for it. One example that I've seen, sometimes people will just say, "I apologize for the inconvenience, we hope you will give us another opportunity in the future." I don't feel like that puts closure on the issue.

Joshua Liebman:

And then another thing that I've seen is, "I apologize for the inconvenience, if you would like to do discuss this further, here's my contact information." And I also don't think that that puts closure to it either. You really need to take the next step and say, "We would like to discuss this with you, and we would like to make sure that we can solve your concerns effectively. We would like to learn more because what you are describing is not typical of the experience that most guests encounter, as you can see from other positive reviews, or from other posts, or from our review rating. We want to make sure we can earn our five stars with you, or any way that the verbiage fits what it is that you're looking for at that time. So when you can, please call me at this number, ask for Josh and whatever the protocol is from your phone tree, or however people can get to you even saying, "This is my number directly."

Joshua Liebman:

You really want to establish that rapport and that relationship with the guest. And then what I've seen is when people do call, and when people do take that next step to have their concern resolved, that if the resolution is so effective, they will be more satisfied than if they did not have a poor experience in the first place. And this is the recovery paradox. So this is a lot of research that's been done on complaint resolution and service failure, that really makes it very imperative that we are seeking out complaints, one, so we can improve the business and make it better for the future. That interaction that we can have with the guests is, we can now turn them into loyal advocates.

Joshua Liebman:

So, if you're shying away from complaints, you're missing opportunities to strengthen guest engagement and strengthen guest loyalty, which then leads to repeat visitation, it might lead to them either removing their review or updating their review and saying, "Just got off the phone with Kelly, she was amazing, she resolved my concerns, and I'm so excited to go back in the future." And when you effectively resolve that issue, then you see that satisfaction level grow higher than if the guest came and had a normal satisfactory experience, because they've had that, almost like this little metaphorical rollercoaster, they now have a more emotional connection with the business.

Kelly Molson:

Absolutely brilliant advice, Josh. And it's always about the positive steps that you take to resolve these issues, there's always going to be issues, there's always going to be things that people will be challenge you on, but it's about listening to them, and understanding, and fixing them as quickly as possible. And it all comes down to that initial acknowledgment, doesn't it? Brilliant advice, thank you. I feel that we've been a bit negative about social media, and I want to bring it back because I love social media, and in all honesty, if it wasn't for social media, and Twitter, and LinkedIn, Josh and I wouldn't even be speaking today. So-

Joshua Liebman:

For sure.

Kelly Molson:

There's a lot positives that come from it.

Joshua Liebman:

Your best friend, that can be your worst enemy sometimes on the same day.

Kelly Molson:

I want to talk about AttractionPros Podcast because that's where I know you from. I want to know how you came to be a cohost and AttractionPros Podcast. How did you meet Matt and how did it start?

Joshua Liebman:

Sure. I met Matt, this had to have been, I want to say the year was probably 2007 and it was at the IAAPA Expo and he was very involved, still is very involved, with IAAPA Young Professional Group. And so we met through that. I was an IAAPA Ambassador that year, so I was an intern for the show and we always just stayed connected. And we actually were both working at Universal at the same time, but I was in Guest Services and he was in HR and those are on polar opposite sides of the resort, so we would joke that we would actually see each other and spend more time together at IAAPA, than we would see each other at work, with our 10,000, 12,000 coworkers all over the place. So we didn't work in the same space, but we always stayed in touch and we would always make sure to, whether it was getting lunch or getting dinner together if we were in the same city going to the same conference.

Joshua Liebman:

And we always just had a good, I would say, relationship from that standpoint and he's always given amazing advice, as you can hear whether it's from the podcast, or whether it's from any of his blog posts or any of that. And we were having dinner right before a conference not in St. Augustine, in Jacksonville, Florida, so near St. Augustine. And I said to Matt that I've really gotten into podcasts lately and listening to podcasts. And I said, "Matt, I've got this really great idea, you should start a podcast." And Matt said to me, "That's kinda funny, because I started listening to podcasts too, and I've always thought that you should start a podcast." And we kinda joked about it, and we both left that dinner right there and I guess, no one's starting a podcast. Because we just both think that the other one should start a podcast.

Joshua Liebman:

He emails me two, three weeks later. He's like, "So, here's this crazy random thought, but what if we started a podcast?" And I said, "Oh yeah, I don't know why we didn't think of that earlier." So we figured out how to start a podcast and we started reaching out to people that we knew in the industry. And we said, "You know, come on the AttractionPros Podcast and help us promote it, and we'll promote it through our channels and we'll grow our social media following." And that was a little over three years ago, and now we are more than 160 episodes deep, and we've been putting out fresh content every single Tuesday, for over 160 straight weeks. So I guess that's the long and short of it.

Kelly Molson:

It is an absolutely brilliant podcast and the website's fantastic as well. There's so much content in there and it's really incredibly valuable. We're going to post all of the information to this in the show notes, so don't worry, you won't miss out on finding it. But I've got two more questions that I want to ask you, we're coming towards the end of the podcast, Josh. What is the best thing about being a podcast host? What do you love most about it?

Joshua Liebman:

I would say, and I know we asked you a similar question on AttractionPros Podcast, so I'll try not to steal your answers even though I completely agree with everything that you've said. 

Kelly Molson:

You could steal, I don't mind. It's fine.

Joshua Liebman:

But I think that the biggest thing for me is the amount that I've learned. I feel like I am continually getting an advanced degree in the Attractions Industry, from the people that we've brought on, and the advice that has been shared, and the wisdom that has been communicated from it. It's almost like we try to do the interview as like a casual conversation, knowing that, yes, we've got this audience, we've got a loyal following and our social media followers, but during the interview, none of that really matters. We really try to think of, what do we want to learn from you while we have this finite amount of time to talk to you? And it's amazing to hear the stories that people have had in their career, and the lessons that they've learned, and the advice that they'd share, and the very practical tips that have come from these podcasts interviews, that it's just been such an amazing educational resource. And it's a bonus that some people tune in and listen to them.

Kelly Molson:

Well, they do in their hundreds and thousands and I'll have to agree with everything that you said, it really is a fantastic way of meeting great people, and learning, and learning, and learning from them. You must tune into the podcast and listen to AttractionPro it's awesome. Right, final question for you. I love to end the podcast on a book recommendation. So we always ask our guests, if there's a book that's come up throughout their career, that's helped shape it in some way, or just a book that they absolutely love, that they would love to recommend to our guests.

Joshua Liebman:

So I've, I've been reading a ton during COVID and I bought a whole bunch of books to try to read in my ample time that I've had, I will say I'm so glad that I listened to your interview with Ben Thompson. Because I was thinking I would suggest the Experience Economy, but I won't do a repeat on that although I read the 2020 updated version of it this summer. But that won't be my response, instead, I've got to go with the 4-Hour Workweek by Tim Ferriss, published at, I want to say, maybe 2007, 2008 or so. And I've listened to his podcast and everything that he talks about, and it's such an interesting mindset and philosophy. 

Joshua Liebman:

And even though that the title sounds like a fantasy dream-type thing, and that the cover of the book is someone laying in a hammock between two Palm trees and it doesn't mean that you're going to work from nine to one on Monday and take the rest of the week off, but it is really about implementing small changes and improvements within your work life and your regular life, that really help increase your productivity. And honestly, I'm so far from having implemented, close to all of what the book talks about, but even if I'm like 1% there, I feel like it's had such a substantial impact on everything that I've been able to do and produce and manage, and the way that I've been able to implement that into my regular life, that I found the book to be very helpful and very useful.

Kelly Molson:

Brilliant book recommendation. I have read that myself and I'm still not working nine to one, which would be lovely. But I have definitely implemented some of the tactics from that to make things a little easier for myself, so great recommendation. Okay, well, as ever, if you would like to win a copy of Josh's books, then you head over to our Twitter account, which is @skipthequeue. And if you retweet this episode announcement with the comment, I want Josh's book, then you can be in with the chance of winning it. Josh it's been really, really good to have you on today, I've really thoroughly enjoyed it. Where can we find out more about you and BackLooper, if we want to find out more about what you do?

Joshua Liebman:

Sure, absolutely. So backlooper.com is the website, I am on Twitter, I'm on LinkedIn, I'd be happy to connect with anybody, so feel free to jump on the socials and say, "Hi."

Kelly Molson:

And AttractionPros?

Joshua Liebman:

Yep, it's on iTunes, it's on Spotify, we started a YouTube channel about six, seven months ago at the beginning of COVID, so you can check out all the episodes there, and attractionpros.com, the usual platforms.

Kelly Molson:

Awesome, thank you. And we will put all of that information in the show notes, so if you need a record of it, it's there. Josh, I think there is only one way to enter this podcast, don't you? And that's by saying, "Remember, we are all AttractionPros." Thank you for coming on. 

Joshua Liebman:

Nicely done.

Kelly Molson:

Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five-star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter, for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned. Skip the Queue is brought to you by 

Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website rubbercheese.com/podcast. 

Download The Visitor Attractions Website Survey Report - https://www.merac.co.uk/download-the-visitor-attractions-survey

We have launched our brand-new playbook: ‘The Retail Ready Guide to Going Beyond the Gift Shop’ — your go-to resource for building a successful e-commerce strategy that connects with your audience and drives sustainable growth.

Download your FREE copy here

Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is  Kelly Molson, MD of Rubber Cheese.

Download our free ebook The Ultimate Guide to Doubling Your Visitor Numbers

If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website rubbercheese.com/podcast
If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this episode.

Competition ends October 31st 2020. The winner will be contacted via Twitter.

Show references:

https://www.roarrdinosauradventure.co.uk/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/charles-adam-goymour-5248832a/

Instagram #roarr_dinosauradventure

www.facebook.com/roarrdinosauradventure

www.twitter.com/roarr_dino

www.primevil-scare.com

www.applewoodholidays.co.uk

www.goymourhomes.co.uk

Transcription:

Kelly Molson:

Welcome to Skip the Queue, a podcast for people working in or working with visitor attractions. I'm your host, Kelly Molson. Each episode, I speak with industry experts from the attractions world. 

In today's episode, I speak with Adam Goymour, Company Director, and Park Manager, at Roarr! Dinosaur Adventure. Sorry, I couldn't help myself. We discuss the government support for the sector. Reopening plans, audience engagement, and the positive impact of reopening with brand new attractions. If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching, Skip the Queue.

Kelly Molson:

Adam, it is so great to have you on the podcast today. Thank you so much for coming in. As you know, these podcasts start off with a little icebreaker question. So I have prepared some new ones for you today that you have not been able to prepare for. So have you ever met any of your idols?

Adam Goymour:

Have I ever met any of my idols? No, however, during the summer periods we've had a couple of celebrities visit us. Jimmy Doherty from Jimmy's Farm.

Kelly Molson:

Great.

Adam Goymour:

He came with his family, he spent the whole day here. I met him, we had a few photos. We also collaborate with our membership schemes and it was really a good occasion because we had the chance to have a chat, talk about business, just talk about life really. He asked for my number to ... sounds like a date really doesn't it?

Kelly Molson:

It does a little bit, yeah.

Adam Goymour:

So we could carry on that chat that we had, which was really good. The unannounced one we had was Tom Hardy himself, who came to the park, which was unexpected. I think a lot of guys were unsure if it was him or not. We had one of our bloggers in the park who did talk to me and say, "I think he's on the park." But she couldn't really confirm that or not. But learn to behold, until he was then leaving, to be only then know that he was on the park, but thankfully the blogger had some pictures taken off him and we could just re-share that.

Kelly Molson:

Brilliant.

Adam Goymour:

I didn't get the chance ... well, I haven't had the chance as yet in my life to meet my idol. But I think those are two significant people that were quite nice to have at the park.

Kelly Molson:

Are you a little bit disappointed that you didn't get Tom Hardy's number?

Adam Goymour:

Absolutely, that would be a cool collab, if I could get him to do a dinosaur video or one of those things he did on CBeebies Storytime, that would have been amazing.

Kelly Molson:

There you go. You've got a goal. You've got a goal for next time, right? That is brilliant. I love that, great story.

Kelly Molson:

Okay. I don't know that we're going to be able to beat those answers, but what is your favorite meal to cook and why?

Adam Goymour:

I love Italian food, but something I do cook because I rarely have a lot of time, being in a business, being quite active, having a few hobbies, I have a dog as well, I'm rarely at home for that long. So something I cook is quick and easy using Jamie Oliver's books, it's salmon fillets, and then I have gnocchi, some broccoli, and it takes 15, 20 minutes. So that's probably my go-to meal.

Kelly Molson:

Perfect. Nutritious and healthy as well, Adam.

Adam Goymour:

Absolutely.

Kelly Molson:

Okay. If you could watch only one film for the rest of your life, what would it be?

Adam Goymour:

Easy question.

Kelly Molson:

Oh?

Adam Goymour:

Jurassic Park, the original.

Kelly Molson:

I wasn't expecting anything less than that.

Adam Goymour:

Yeah, it's a keen favorite. My mum and I always used to watch it, and we used to have coloring books when I was four or five years old that we always used to do together. It was a film I loved, so yeah.

Kelly Molson:

And definitely the original as well, right? It was the best.

Adam Goymour:

Yeah, it was.

Kelly Molson:

Okay. So I know that you've listened to a few of these podcasts, so you might have already prepared for the last icebreaker question that I always ask. Tell me something that's true, that almost nobody agrees with you on. So your unpopular opinion.

Adam Goymour:

Yeah, I love that Greg James show. Rugby is better than football.

Kelly Molson:

Okay. See I always wonder what people are going to comment on, on Twitter, when we put stuff like this out. But I think that will be probably quite 50, 50.

Adam Goymour:

Well, football's a global sport, isn't it? Rugby's getting there. I think for all of the community values that rugby brings and the atmosphere you see at a rugby club. I've played it since I was about nine years old and joined my local club, Diss, when I was living in Banham in Norfolk, from about from the age of 16, I think it was. I've played there ever since, and it's been a fantastic environment to make friends, and to take myself away from the working environment, and keep myself fit and active really.

Kelly Molson:

Is that one of your hobbies still today, playing rugby?

Adam Goymour:

Yeah. I don't play it perhaps as regularly as I used to now, but I still play it fairly regularly.

Kelly Molson:

It's a real complete contrast to your working day isn't it, being on the rugby field?

Adam Goymour:

Yeah, it's still in that team environment. I love the team environment, I feed off it. So yeah, it's something where I've captained and I've been a part of the senior squad, so I do enjoy being in that leadership role. So that's another reason why I love it.

Kelly Molson:

Great, thank you for sharing. I hope Greg James does listen to this podcast one day and knows that I've still stolen this from him, but with the greatest intention because I'm a big fan. Thanks, Greg.

Kelly Molson:

Adam, I really want to ... there are loads of things that I want to talk to you about today and with a lot of these podcast interviews where we're talking about the future, I have to go back, because we can't not talk about what's just happened and what we're still dealing with. So I want to ask you a little bit first about how lockdown has been for you.

Kelly Molson:

What I saw was how very open, and authentic, and very quite vulnerable you were throughout it actually, in terms of the press reports and the news stories that we saw. I think that's really admirable, and it's something that I really admire you for. I just wanted to get a feel for how you felt and what you were going through?

Adam Goymour:

I think I can start off by saying it was a rollercoaster of emotions, particularly as an owner/operator in the sector. I furloughed myself after the initial onslaught of working through an unexpected closedown, and the implications of it. It was a balancing act, you balance out the practicality and emotions of closing down your business, having a hundred-plus staff that you're not able to offer work to, and finding yourself, after I furloughed myself, with time on my hands, which I never have had before. As I've been ingrained in a family business since I was a child, and it was the first real opportunity in a family business to stop, take a step back, and look at it from a different perspective.

Adam Goymour:

On a personal side, I was excising my dog Millie quite a lot, spent time with my girlfriend, Rosie, reading, catching up with films, phoning friends that I've not spoken to for a long time because I've just been so busy with work. Apart from that, however, it gave me a good deal of valuable thinking and planning time. But also as the prospect of reopening loomed, there was a huge amount of planning and preparation to do for Roarr! that was eventually closed for 105 days. Zoom meetings were essential to work with managers remotely prior to returning to work at Roarr! Also.

Adam Goymour:

So yeah, heck and all it went very quickly and it was surprising. There was calls to BALPPA, so the British Association of Leisure, Piers, Parks, and Attractions, and also NFAN, National Farm Attractions Network. They held some twice weekly, some of them were once weekly. There's also support from the Council, Norfolk Chamber of Commerce, and I was the representative, and that was obviously after I was furloughed, and I was the representative for the park.

Adam Goymour:

So, I was being pulled left, right and center, and trying to keep everything together as well as understanding it myself in the limited time that I had. So yeah, it was full-on really. It was going from, okay, this has just happened, to having time to myself which I've never had before, to then being pulled to left, right, and center to get things sorted. But I love a challenge, I'm a young man, I'm 32, nearly 33, and I enjoy the challenge and it's all about survival, but also the grace time as well. So it's really important, I want to come out of this growing and all the better businesses do in the tough times. So that's what I want us to accomplish.

Kelly Molson:

It actually sounds incredibly positive, Adam. I mean, I can completely appreciate how challenging the time was, running my own business myself on a much smaller scale than yours. I know the kind of challenges that we had in terms of team and making sure that we had enough revenue, and work, and things like that. But actually, it sounds to me from what you've just said, that it gave you quite a lot of time to reflect on where the business was, and maybe positive changes that you could make when you came back.

Adam Goymour:

Yeah, it certainly forced a lot of changes perhaps earlier than we had planned to because of the situation, which I love change. I'm a driver with change for the better, not for the sake of change. I've enjoyed that as another challenge really. That's the opportunity it's given, and I think in life you can look at things two ways can't you? You can either look at it and think poor old me, or you could look at it and think, "Are we going to nail this or what?" It's then given the motivation to the leadership team around me to drive it forward.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah, I love that. That really came across in some of the things that you were doing whilst you were locked down as well. Because one of the things that I noticed was how brilliantly you were engaging with your audience. Even if your audience couldn't come to the venue, you did a lot of things. Like there's a brilliant activity pack that you put together, for kids obviously, but I downloaded it. I mean, look at the backgrounds that you've got, your marketing team went into overdrive a little bit and it was really super positive. What was the response like from your customers during that time?

Adam Goymour:

Yeah, well firstly, with the marketing team, we didn't furlough them because they're our sales team, they're our communication team externally, and it's a backward step if you furlough those guys. They have really done a fantastic job, really proud of them for what they've done. But yeah, I mean with the audience in their own homes, what was the response like from the customers? We knew we had to keep connected with our customers and we had to look to engage with them in their homes. So we brought the Roarr! experience to them. We created a number of free downloads as you spoke about, from our coloring in dinosaurs, then making face masks, through to full-on activity book. And even a live dinosaur tour of the park.

Adam Goymour:

The response to the activity has been fantastic. We've had so many social engagements, customer survey responses, and feedback, in general, to say how welcomed they were in such a hard time, especially with kids at home and parents looking for activities to keep them busy. Something we're keen to continue to produce also, that we've spoken about, especially over the winter period as well.

Adam Goymour:

We also partnered with the local press to provide creative competitions over a four week period where kids and adults could both get creative, and also win a free family pass to the park. We had some great entries and it's been a really successful strategy for us during a pandemic to keep the brand alive, but also to engage with our audience and ensure we're the first place they wanted to visit once we are back open. Our visitor numbers have reflected that. We plan on keeping this going as part of our marketing strategy, ensuring we're giving added value and also ensuring our customers are engaging with us even when they're not on the park.

Adam Goymour:

So that hopefully gives a round synopsis, and I did speak with my head of marketing on that question really, because she is the brains behind it, being given the full trust and talent to get on with it. She definitely performed, she being Natalie Douglas, rather than she, her. Really proud of that, so that's something we had an opportunity to try, and that's what I said to the team, "God, we've got so much opportunity to try things. Let's see what customers do like, don't like, and just keep trying new things and just seeing what we can get out of it." Which we have got a heck of a lot. So yeah, a real positive.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah, it is a lovely positive. It's really lovely to hear you actually thank your team as well. I mean, I spoke to Natalie during lockdown down and I know how challenging that was for her as well. I know how much she had on her plate. So it's really nice to see you give that recognition. But I think what you did was perfect, and like you say, now that people are coming back, you've actually seen that translate into visitor numbers. I want to talk to you about that in a minute, but I think just going back to through lockdown like I said, you were very, very, open about the challenges that you were facing. I really respected that, you spoke out on BBC Radio Norfolk, you were in the local press quite a lot. How much of a help has that government support been for you, because you were very, very, vocal about needing help and needing support to keep the facility there?

Adam Goymour:

Yeah, well we are the worst-hit industry, one of the first to close and last to open and yeah, we need that support. I mean, the VAT reduction from the government from 20% to 5% has been a godsend and really helped us financially, especially since we have reopened. That ends, I think, end of January next year. I hope that extends. We had MP Jerome Mayhew visit us. He was specifically interested in looking at how we're doing, and he was the original founder of Go Ape! But also owns three trampoline parks. So we had a good chat and I said to him that these are the things that we need, but also explained about what government support we have managed to achieve because quite a lot of them we were over the threshold, so that was difficult. But the reduction for VAT for the tourist industry is something that the industry has campaigned for, for many years. We pay a lot more VAT than other countries in Europe in the same industry and it always baffles me considering how many jobs we provide, especially in the local industry, and especially in Broadlands, which is the council area in Norfolk and being Norfolk's largest visitor attraction. The council is certainly on board with doing what they can to help us and have been great through this period. So yeah, all the level of support they provided and devised with the rate support has been useful and welcomed.

Adam Goymour:

Unfortunately, the banks have not been as supportive as they could have been, despite all the government's best-laid plans. We lost a million pounds worth of income, which is obviously significant to hit our business. We have utilized the government's furloughing scheme. We have some concerns about the furloughing scheme stopping at the end of October and the impacts that we'll have on the hospitality, leisure, and tourism sector. So we hope that can continue, and I know there's been stuff in the news about it, but let's hope that they listen and that they do support us because I think the demand, especially in Norfolk, has been incredible. I had a rare weekend off last weekend and I spent time at another visitor attraction with my girlfriend, Rosie, and her friends. And you could just see the demand is there, and we also have a holiday park, it's called Applewood Country Holiday Park, it's in Banham behind the zoo, which my sister runs. The demand has been exceptional, but obviously, we've had to manage that as well.

Adam Goymour:

So, that's the support we've had, has it been good enough? I think it's as good as he can be, I'm not going to criticize the government. It's been an unprecedented time, they've done everything they can. I think we can always moan but what does it achieve? Not a lot. You either need to take what you can and campaign, and fight for it, or you can moan. So we decided to say, "Look, this is what we've been handed and we now need to look at it and resolve it." So yeah, I think it's been there or thereabouts, I just think a little bit more support from the bank would be helpful, however. We're looking at that at the moment with some help. So that'll hopefully put us through to ensure that our longer-term plans are not affected by sales of other things. So, yeah, interesting future ahead.

Kelly Molson:

Well, yes, it still is an interesting time, isn't it? I guess it doesn't stop when the parks open. That's what we need to look at. So let's talk about reopening because I guess it was a really difficult place to even start to think about because you've got so many variables to think about, the demand has been there, but I guess at the time you're questioning whether it will be, whether people want to come back or not. You've got challenges, operational challenges, in terms of how many of your staff can you bring back and how many staff will you need? How did you even start to put those plans in place?

Adam Goymour:

Well, initially I was going, "Oh my God." It's just absorbing information from all the different avenues you've got available to you. And just listening, and just watching, reading, taking everything on board. Thankfully I'm a really good, big communicator with people in the industry. So I knew where the help was, I sought that help. I attended Zoom meetings even at seven, eight o'clock on a Friday night, every Friday night, throughout the whole lockdown period. Speaking to the council, speaking to other owner-operators, and listened to the guidance from the government and just listening to them. But the government as we know, they did what they could and we didn't get the details until very last minute. They're telling you, you can reopen, but then give you the guidance five days before, or four days before. You've got to turn that around, trying to anticipate, try, and preempt what they're going to provide you.

Adam Goymour:

So the best way to look at it was also listening to other operators in other countries. So for example, Efteling in Holland, Europa-Park in Germany, big family-run businesses, they're just sitting behind Disneyland Paris as the biggest theme parks in Europe. I've got friends in the industry all over the UK. So speaking to them about specifics in some of our attractions where we have a common denominator in terms of similar attractions. So speaking to them. We did, however, still have animal keepers at the secret animal garden at the park, which was one of our attractions, worked throughout. As did a couple of our parks and gardens staff so it wasn't like a jungle when we got back because we quite like to have really nice prim and proper parks and gardens. It is a massive task, not only return to the park to its normal high standard presentation, but also to bend really with the whole situation to understand and implement all the additional COVID-19 protection requirements.

Adam Goymour:

So first goal was to COVID-19 train our various managers, understand what we're up against. Look at how many visitors we think we could get in the park before the guidance came out, and look at how many staff can we actually operate with to be profitable on less visitors, but also supplying that excellent service as best we can. Then it's also the denominating fact that we might have some staff that don't want to come back because they're scared, which is absolutely okay. We had to have those chats with people, and it took some time. But our managers were committed. Our leadership team was firmly committed and we had to collectively agree and implement COVID signage, sanitizer points, which probably cost us about six to eight grand. PPE for the crew. I worked with a company called Regency Purchasing Group, they were a fantastic group of people led by Alex Demetriou. He also owns a Pier, Weston-Super-Mare Pier, he's a fantastic person, very helpful. His team are brilliant, so they really helped to source a lot of things that we needed. We've worked with them for a number of years, can't recommend them enough.

Adam Goymour:

We had the closure of Dinomite, our indoor play. Dippy-Ville, which is another indoor soft play. Predator high ropes initially, but thankfully it reopened not soon after we had reopened the park. During lockdown period I was speaking to Innovative Leisure, so Phil Pickersgill is the MD for the UK side of that business. I was speaking to him on and off about how's that going to work? How are we going to do it? What information have you got? He collaborated with all the other high ropes manufacturers, suppliers. So they came as one and they worked together on how all these operators could open them up. They did a whole guidance document, which they went through the HSE to then support us as businesses, rather than them all working individually, which is fantastic to see, and to get hold of that early on, gave us a fighting chance.

Adam Goymour:

It has probably been our biggest challenge because there's only so many people you get on there, and obviously it's included in our price. But yet, to make it pay, we need to get certain amount of business in. So we then found out how many people use the attraction, because although we were counting the amount of people on there before, it was really interesting to see how many people went on that, but also other attractions that we didn't have to log how many people went on there in a day because it just happened. We didn't have to worry about social distancing.

Adam Goymour:

We had to look at toilets in terms of that was always the biggest conversation of any Zoom meeting with BALPPA, and NFAN, with owner-operators, how the hell are we going to do this?

Kelly Molson:

Yeah.

Adam Goymour:

You can do something different, some people did this, some people like that. I had backup plans in case something didn't work and I knew the cost of those as well. We had one way systems, we had a whole new IT system in terms of getting people pre-booked onto the park. Then it's working with our iPAL system who are inundated with all of their clients in order to get what we needed to open. So that was a challenge.

Kelly Molson:

It's incredible, I mean, just hearing you talking it through, everyone that listens to this podcast will be ... they are in the sector. So they do completely understand the same challenges as you, but I mean, it is quite epic, isn't it? When you start to go through that list of things that it's affected, or that you've needed to change, or review, or adapt in some way, it feels never-ending doesn't it?

Adam Goymour:

It is a huge, enormous task, it was high magnitude. It was something I enjoy doing because I must admit, I think I've walked our 85-acre park now a hundred times in terms of the customer journey. So I did it on my own to start off with, I got it in my head. I had to do it, but I needed the team to help me deliver it. But I had to start somewhere and say, "This is what we're going to do." So that was really exciting because it was my chance to go, "Look, I'm going to lead us from the front and this is how we're going to do it guys." I did it on my own, it took me a full-on day. So I probably got there by eight, left about seven at night, racking your brains with it. Then I got my health and safety advisor in, we went through it, we spent all day as well. And then we had a plan. We knew how we were going to do it. Obviously, we had to work with the local EHO, to go through all of that, and away we went.

Adam Goymour:

Then it's just putting the plans in place, getting the staff in, staging them as well. Then working on the details of how we're going to do it once we brought the managers in because they're the ones that are going to be operating it. Then it's just supporting them and being with them at every stage, and getting their teams in. Who's going to come in, who doesn't want to come in, all this sort of stuff. That was really interesting. Obviously, risk assessments had to be thorough. They had to be at the pinnacle of everything, without a solid foundation of a risk assessment, you cannot operate. So that was also something that we had to look at.

Adam Goymour:

Then you've got the additional things that the government gave. So it's like, now face coverings are required in shops. Thankfully, we'd already produced obviously with our great marketing team, all of our branded face coverings.

Kelly Molson:

Of course, you did, dinosaur masks. That's what we all need, dinosaur face masks.

Adam Goymour:

It's great. We've got a few different designs and we are the first people in the UK to really come up with them, I believe, I didn't say anybody come up with them before us. We worked with Regency again to get those made, and on the different BALPPA and NFAN calls, other attractions were saying, "Well, where do we get one of those?" And I was like, "Here's the information, go get it. It's a fantastic thing." You need to make it fun. We're a fun place to go, why be boring, be run of the mill, and have a boring face mask. You're here for a day out with family, make it fun. We don't want to scare children, obviously, so we need to have some tamer ones, but for those that like him, we've also got some other ones. And then after that, we saw an Instagram, that Jurassic Park, they decided to start doing some.

Kelly Molson:

It all started with your park. It all started with Roarr! Adam. Roarr!

Adam Goymour:

Yeah, and I can vouch for that because I didn't see anything on the internet that anyone else is doing with dinosaur masks, I think we can stand proud of that.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah, I really liked ... I love that, that you've injected that level of fun into something that actually could be quite frightening for kids. If they don't really fully understand what's happening, but what you've also talked quite a lot about, and it's something that we've just recorded an episode about is this sector cooperation. The sector coming together to help each other. I guess it has been one of those sectors that has always spoken to each other quite a lot, but it really seems like this situation has just brought out the very best in people. There's been so much knowledge share between attractions and suppliers, and that's just wonderful to see.

Adam Goymour:

Yeah, I think the industry is a lovely, lovely industry. Most of us are family-run businesses. We're families that are running these places. The biggest family-run theme park, I believe in the UK, is Paultons Park down in Southampton, the Mancey's, fantastic family, a very reputable business, a good brand. Like us, we're a family run business and we're similar age, the son, the owner there, James, and he's a really nice guy. We kept in touch all the time. There's a whole host of other young persons, similar to my age, where we meet up probably quarterly to chat through ideas, to talk about the industry. It's a lonely place and it's not ... although it brings so much to the country in terms of income, and jobs and everything, believe it or not, there isn't that many of us. It's nice to meet up and I really love the industry. It's great.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah, I bet. So let's fast forward to being open. You talked earlier when you said demand has been pretty incredible. What's it been like? What has it been like? Has it gone crazy?

Adam Goymour:

Yeah, it has and I think in a good way. I think it's taught the English people to love where they live. The amount of campaigns coming from Great Britain, which has been then put down to their local DMO's, Destination Management Organizations. So Visit Norfolk. Then you've got Visit Suffolk, obviously. Then that goes up to Visit East of England, who we're working a lot more closely with Visit Britain, to get the attention of the government, to give us some money. We're a larger tourism industry or area of the country than Cornwall, people don't know that and they should. We've got to shout about it more and more. So I'm certainly whenever I attend Visit Norfolk meetings saying, "We've got to do something about it." And keep putting my voice across with that because I've been given an opportunity to have a voice, which I love. So, again, a great bunch of people.

Adam Goymour:

So yeah, what's it been like since we reopened?

Kelly Molson:

Nonstop?

Adam Goymour:

Nonstop, it continues to be a roller coaster, lots of learnings. It's been busy. It's been exciting. We've managed, fortunately a bit after reopening initially, officially opened to new attractions that haven't been opened before. We had Dippy Live Show, so Dippy is our trademarked character. So Dippy the diplodocus, then we've had Dippy's Raceway. So we've got a specific area in the park now dedicated to Dippy, this yellow and purple dinosaur, which the kids absolutely love. Great merchandise, great brand bible-based around him. We managed to open those up. We already had some money spent on it, so it was just about putting it together. So thankfully it wasn't a huge cost, but it allowed the same amount of attractions to be open where we had to close some indoor areas. So that was a real, real plus, a real positive, something that we were very proud to be able to do in these really hard times. It gave something for our guests to talk about, and to think, "Oh yeah, that's new. We got to go there."

Kelly Molson:

No, that's a really interesting point actually, isn't it? Because like you say, you're opening up and you are competing with everybody else that's opening up. To be able to open with something new that nobody's been able to see before, that is really positive and really exciting. Obviously, going to be a crowd draw for you.

Adam Goymour:

Yeah, and Dippy's Raceway, side of Dippy's Splash Zone, which is a fantastic attraction and that's been our most popular attraction, which tells us we are putting in the right things. We're listening to our guests, we know what they like. For them to enjoy that, which clearly shows by the daily figures we get knowing how many people are using those attractions. That's been a real nice plus really, to see that materialize and come to the floor really.

Adam Goymour:

Other things it's just been seeing guests' behavior, seeing staff behavior, how we react in these times, and just seeing how we've pulled together as a team. We've had, at times when we do have crew shortages, which everybody knows you get, we've had teams muck in and do other jobs, which has been really good. That was something I set out when all the managers started. I said, "Look, we may have to obviously all muck in, which is pretty usual, but more so than usual to ensure that the park runs smoothly for our guests." And they have, as when the needs arise, they done just that. So it's been a lot about learnings, note takings, reacting really quickly when we needed to, constantly monitoring, adapting, and just getting things right.

Kelly Molson:

It is a lovely, positive story and it's wonderful to hear that you've been inundated with people coming back, and so positive that you've been able to open these new rides and these new areas. What does the next six months hold for you? You have PrimEVIL don't you, which is obviously big around Halloween time? What, what does the next few months look for you in the run-up to Christmas?

Adam Goymour:

Yeah, well number one, that'll be the reopening of our award-winning and Norfolk's largest indoor play area at Dinomite. Today we had our annual roster inspection, so we know where we're up to with that and can make all the necessary repairs. We've got a cleaning company coming in next week to give it a full-blown clean. Then we've got all the signage that's been re-wrapped today, using all of our trademark characters, to make it really fun and immersive because we've got to have one way systems, good ventilation, lower capacity numbers. So that's been a whole different ball game, setting all that up.

Adam Goymour:

What else have we been doing? So whilst we continue to enjoy some plans, we've had to sort out September tickets, October tickets, Halloween during the day, Halloween during the night, which has been a big topic of conversation as of late. Look at Christmas, we've got our plans, but we haven't completed them yet.

Adam Goymour:

PrimEVIL is something we've had to completely change how we do it. So we've got a dedicated team in house that look after it, we've been chatting with the other big Halloween operators in the UK. So Tulleys Farm, Stuart Beare, has the biggest Halloween attraction in the UK. So I've been chatting with him. Doug Douglas, from Avon Valley, near Bath. Tom Pearcey from York Maze, and a couple of others where you got Iver and Tom Robinson. We've just been going through the plans, what can we expect? What ideas have we got? There's also to ScareCON Group with Michael Bolton. It's going to be in bubbles, obviously, a lot lower capacity, walk around the attractions. We're going to have to eliminate some of the things where obviously it's not possible to have those during these times.

Adam Goymour:

We're also creating some fun stuff around it. So that's going to be called Route 666, which has got some fantastic graphics which we've done internally. We'll release tickets, and we'll just have to see what happens and just see what comes up. If we have to close it, we have to close it. We know what the cost is going to be. If we decided to go ahead with it and then we have to close it before we even start, we're prepared to make that risk, but it's a small risk in terms of what we could make if it does go ahead.

Adam Goymour:

So, that's what we've got going on at the minute, but obviously see next year of certainly got a lot of plans, what I want to do for the future. And we've got a longterm plan, which I've been doing in the meantime. Which is the future of the business and to make it what I want it to be? So we're working on that as well. So yeah, they're the main things at the moment.

Kelly Molson:

Good, it sounds super positive. I'm really pleased that you've been so busy. I genuinely have been just really impressed with the openness of how you shared what you were going through during lockdown, but also, it's just lovely to see how positive the reaction has been from your customers coming back. So thank you for being really open on today's podcast and sharing all that with us.

Kelly Molson:

I always like to end the podcast by asking about a book that you would recommend. So a book that has helped shape your career in some way or something, one that you would recommend to us all.

Adam Goymour:

Well as I said earlier, lockdown gave me the opportunity to indulge in some reading, which I've not always had the opportunity to do, or as much as I would like. There's been a couple of books really that have made a real impression on me, and Simon Sinek, I love listening to him and reading his books. You've got the original books like Why. And then there's, Leaders Eat Last, and I'll probably say Leaders Eat Last, to be honest. It talks all about leadership excellence, and I've got notes here right in front of me, which I make as I read the book because my memory's awful. So I have to write down notes and just refer back to it. I've got a huge green board behind me on my office wall, which is basically my brain and I'll just put it on there.

Adam Goymour:

He talks a lot about leadership excellence. Values talks about the value of empathy, a whole host of other things. The willingness to listen to your team, it's now really utilize everything that I've learned from that book and sharing it with my management team because they're a young bunch, and they're dedicated, enthusiastic, and I certainly want to invest in them. As a leader, I want to inspire, and to do more, learn more, and become more. We've got a real opportunity here, so it's just working with them, with my head of HR. He's fantastic, he helps me when I struggle to get my words out from the head when we got so much going on. It's working with them really and just utilize whatever I've learned from that.

Kelly Molson:

It's a great book, great recommendation. I love that you've turned that around and you want to empower your staff and your team to be able to use that as well. Well look, if you would like to win a copy of that book, then if you head over to our Twitter account, which is skip_the_queue, and you retweet this episode announcement with the comment, "I want Adam's book." Then you could be in with a chance of winning it.

Kelly Molson:

Adam, it's been lovely to have you on today. I think it would be lovely maybe to get you back on in a year from now and find out how all of those plans have developed as well. I think that would be great.

Adam Goymour:

I'd absolutely love to, that'd be great.

Kelly Molson:

Thanks, Adam.

Adam Goymour:

Thank you very much.

Kelly Molson:

Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five-star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned. Skip the Queue is brought to you by 

Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode, and more, over on our website, rubbercheese.com/podcast.

Download The Visitor Attractions Website Survey Report - https://www.merac.co.uk/download-the-visitor-attractions-survey

We have launched our brand-new playbook: ‘The Retail Ready Guide to Going Beyond the Gift Shop’ — your go-to resource for building a successful e-commerce strategy that connects with your audience and drives sustainable growth.

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Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is  Kelly Molson, MD of Rubber Cheese.

Download our free ebook The Ultimate Guide to Doubling Your Visitor Numbers

If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website rubbercheese.com/podcast
If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this episode.

Competition ends October 31st 2020. The winner will be contacted via Twitter.

Show references:

Carlton Gajadhar

Carlton provides expert consultation to brands and organisations within the tourist attractions industry. As a freelance consultant in visitor experience development, Carlton has overseen the debut of global attractions that include Kuwait’s renowned Sheikh Abdullah Al Salem Cultural Centre and the Al Salam Palace Museum — each a national landmark built to share and preserve the culture of the region.

Carlton earned a Masters in International Tourism Management from the University of Lincoln. Over ten years, he has lent his leadership and advice to stand out brands like Merlin Entertainments, Queen Elizabeth Olympic Park, The Coca-Cola London Eye, Madame Tussaud’s, and companies from an array of industries.

www.carlton-gajadhar.com/

https://twitter.com/carltongajadhar

Rachel Mackay

A museum and heritage professional currently managing Kew Palace at Historic Royal Palaces. Huge experience of leading change in several visitor attractions from national museums to Royal Palaces. Specialist areas are visitor experience and operations. Studied medieval history and Masters degree in Heritage Management.

The Recovery Room was created as a resource for sharing research around crisis management of the Covid-19 crisis in museums and heritage organisations.

https://twitter.com/rachmackay

https://www.therecoveryroomblog.com/

https://www.therecoveryroomblog.com/guide-for-front-line-managers

VE: Forum

https://vedf.weebly.com/

​Membership of the VE:Forum is FREE and open to anybody working in a customer service management or leadership role, whether from a charity or a publicly-funded organisation, or a commercial operation.

To join, simply sign up to the mailing list https://vedf.weebly.com/contact.html

Transcription:

Kelly Molson:

Welcome to Skip the Queue, a podcast for people working in or working with visitor attractions. I'm your host, Kelly Molson. Each episode, I speak with industry experts from the attractions world. These chats are fun, informative, and hopefully always interesting.

In today's episode, I'm joined by two guests, Carlton Gajadhar, a Visitor Experience professional, and Co-founder of the Visitor Experience Forum.

And Rachel Mackay, Manager of Historic Palaces at Kew, including Kew Palace and the Great Pagoda. We discuss lockdown experiences in both the UK and Kuwait, crisis management for museums and heritage organizations, and improving sector cooperation. If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue.

Kelly Molson:

Oh guys, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. It's really, really lovely to have you both on.

Carlton Gajadhar:

Yeah no, thanks for having us. We're really excited to come and join you today. So yeah, let's do this.

Kelly Molson:

Let's do this. Well, I mean, you know how this podcast starts, right?

Carlton Gajadhar:

I know.

Kelly Molson:

So it's icebreaker question time. All right, I've got really good ones for you both. Right, Carlton, I'm going to start with you first. So, what would be your superpower and why?

Carlton Gajadhar:

I will say, invisibility.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah.

Carlton Gajadhar:

I can go anywhere and everywhere and nobody will be able to see me and I can snoop on people and get all the juicy gossip and all that kind of stuff.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah, lovely.

Carlton Gajadhar:

So that's what I would do.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah, 100%. We'd all take that opportunity, wouldn't we?

Carlton Gajadhar:

No.

Kelly Molson:

Right. Rachel, I've got a good one for you. What's your favorite Eurovision song?

Rachel Mackay:

Wow, you've done your research. Okay, good. My God, well that's an easy one. It would have to be the last time the UK won, so 1997, Katrina Waves, Love Shine a Light is the best song but I do think that almost every Eurovision song is a banger.

Rachel Mackay:

There's only a few that are not, so I could really choose anyone but that's got to be the best one. I actually cry when I listen to it. There's a real emotional experience for me.

Kelly Molson:

It's a really good song though. It's surprising how many good songs have come out of Eurovision, right?

Rachel Mackay:

No. It's not a surprise. It's a fantastic musical contest.

Kelly Molson:

It is glorious. I've got really good memories of listening to it with my nann, weirdly and my nann was a massive Eurovision fan. So while we're on this topic, what about the Icelandic song from this year because that was good?

Rachel Mackay:

I love it.

Carlton Gajadhar:

Yes. That was awesome.

Rachel Mackay:

I was actually thinking about, we'll actually buy tickets to see them in April because I think they are fantastic and I really want to go to Iceland, I've never been and I think, well actually, they could win next year, now that they've got ... Because they've got a better following now, that band. So I think 2022, Reykyavik, I'll see you there.

Kelly Molson:

You would love Iceland.

Rachel Mackay:

It is.

Kelly Molson:

It is a great place. We went about three years ago and it's been the best place that I've ever been. It is so spectacular and so different. I'm a bit of a winter girl, really, I kind of like coats and hats and boots and stuff.

Rachel Mackay:

Me too.

Kelly Molson:

So it's my dress vibe there.

Rachel Mackay:

I went to Lisbon in 2018 and that was the first time I'd actually been to the contest. It was just amazing, the cooperation between everybody and how much everybody loved each other. And it was just hugging everybody that was wearing all different flags and especially, post-Brexit, it was such a lovely feeling. It was one of the best weekends of my life.

Kelly Molson:

Oh, that's amazing. I'm so glad I did my homework with this question. Right Carlton, back to you. Ooh, I like this question. If you can have an unlimited supply of one food for the rest of your life, what would it be?

Carlton Gajadhar:

Ooh, I love pasta. I can eat pasta until I die, honestly. Any sauce, any shape of pasta, just bring it on.

Kelly Molson:

Carb fest, massive carb fest.

Carlton Gajadhar:

Yes. I love pasta.

Kelly Molson:

I'm so with you on that one, actually. Although I'd be a whale because carbs and me, we just don't agree.

Carlton Gajadhar:

Oh, don't worry about that. It's fine.

Kelly Molson:

You've got the physique for it. You've got the metabolism and the physique for the carb overloading.

Carlton Gajadhar:

Of course. Of course.

Kelly Molson:

Right. Okay. Last icebreaker question and then it's onto the unpopular opinions. Rachel, what fictional family would you be a member of, if you could?

Rachel Mackay:

Oh, actually, the family from Schitt's Creek definitely. They're really good, they're fantastic. I don't know if you watch that show but it just gets better and better and you just love them more and more and more, as it goes on. And all four are hilarious. Sometimes, I talk like Moira Rose now, which is a real bad habit to break but yeah, definitely. The Roses from Schitt's Creek.

Kelly Molson:

I've just started it. That's been recommended to me so many times. It's brilliant.

Rachel Mackay:

It gets better and better and better. I think the moment where you fall in love with it, is the last episode of season 2 and then it just gets better from thereon in.

Kelly Molson:

Good too. Good questions, good answers as well. Thank you. Right, unpopular opinions. What is something that you believe to be true, that hardly anybody else agrees with you on?

Rachel Mackay:

I had thought of something but now I feel like when I see it, people will think I'm a bit one track. It's to do with Eurovision, so I don't want people to get the wrong idea about me but my unpopular opinion is and this is actually true, which is that the best music of the 20th and 21st Century has come out of the Eurovision Song Contest.

Rachel Mackay:

And also, the European Song Contest is like a great mirror of European politics and actually, a really intellectual form of study. When I was at uni, we did a module on international relations and you had to come prepared with a current news topic. And I would always come in one-shop about the European Song Contest and they just kind of rolled my eyes at me. I'm like, "Look, you want to see European politics in action, just watch Eurovision Song Contest, it's so easy." So, yeah, that's my-

Kelly Molson:

Did anyone agree with you? Was this a really unpopular opinion?

Rachel Mackay:

Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Although there are people who have degrees because I've been to a Eurovision conference and people have degrees in Eurovision. They did their post-grads in Eurovision studies and all that kind of stuff. Yeah.

Kelly Molson:

This is amazing, I actually have a friend, who's another agency owner, who is a huge Eurovision fan and she's going to love this episode. All right. Well look, this is the first time on this podcast that we've had two guests on at the same time. I'm really glad that you've both come on. There is a big reason for it. So you both work in very similar roles and you both know each other as well, which is great.

Kelly Molson:

You both have the visitor experience forum in common, which we're going to talk about in a little while. But what is really key and what really shines through with both of you is, that you have this real kind of passion and drive for improving sector cooperation. And that's what we want to talk about on the podcast today, that's why you're both on.

Kelly Molson:

But I think for us to get to the grips of, why that's key for you both and the things that you've been doing for the last few months to help that, we kind of have to go backward a little bit. So I'm going to ask you both about your experiences. And Rachel, I want to start with you. If you can share with us a little about what your lockdown experience has been like.

Kelly Molson:

What have you been able to do, what have you not been able to do and how have you spent your time, actually? Because I know that you've been furloughed for some time of that.

Rachel Mackay:

Yeah. Well I mean, firstly, obviously I was very lucky that I wasn't personally faced by COVID. Genuinely wasn't, so there's that side of things, where you're just lucky and that was your luck time. But also, I got to spend most of it in Scotland and that was great, to have a bit of fresh air and space and stuff like that. So that side of things was all really nice.

Rachel Mackay:

There was a bit of frustration in and I'm sure this is the case for so many people, the timing of the lockdown was quite cruel, particularly for this sector because it's just when you're about to open up. And we were just about to open an exhibition at Kew Palace, which has been a real labor of love for me. Three years in the planning, all about King George III and his mental health and it's such an important topic and one I'm really passionate about.

Rachel Mackay:

I've really tried to bring this exhibition into being and we were one week away from doing it and then all of the sudden, all of it just went.

Kelly Molson:

No.

Carlton Gajadhar:

Awful.

Rachel Mackay:

And you start reading because you still had events in your diary and it was like, "Oh, today would have been the press day. Today would have been the opening day." Oh, that was awful. Really, really annoying but I know that lots of people were in that situation as well. And then as you said, I was furloughed quite early on and I did not take that well, I'll be honest with you.

Kelly Molson:

No. It's interesting because a lot of people that I've spoken to in my agency world, where they've been furloughed, there's been really mixed feelings about it. For some, it felt like a real sense of rejection and that's really hard to take, right? In any circumstance.

Rachel Mackay:

Yeah. I mean, it's a completely good thing. I just couldn't bear the idea that I wasn't critical to the business and it made total sense because my site is seasonal, which is open this year. So I'm kind of not needed now until next year but it was a real blow to the ego. And I feel awful for my boss, I made just a barking fuss of it and was really winging at him.

Rachel Mackay:

But yeah, that kind of took a bit of getting used to and a bit of having to get to grips with that idea. Because yeah, it's a real bust to the ego and I am somebody who, I've got a real tied up in work and that's really important to me. To have that taken away, was a real loss for a few days, while I got my head around that idea.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah and Carlton, while we were stuck in the UK and Scotland, you were locked down somewhere completely different, weren't you? So you were out in Kuwait. Can you tell us a bit about what you were doing out there and what it was like?

Carlton Gajadhar:

Yeah. No problem. Yeah. So I was stuck in Kuwait during the Corona period. So I was a Head of Guest Experience for a brand new attraction, called Al-Salam Palace Museum. So the museum was set up by the government, to get people to experience how the Palace used to be like, before the invasion of Kuwait in 1990. So the place literally was in ruins after the war.

Carlton Gajadhar:

And what the palace was used for, before that, was kind of to ... Is kind of like a stately home, I would say, where international guests like the Queen and Diana will come and stay, if they did rural visits to Kuwait. So it's a very high profile location. So my role was to help with all the operations. I have a team of 16 and we lead the VIP element of the organization, all the tours of the museum, as well as all the back office, the call center and that kind of stuff on there.

Carlton Gajadhar:

So it was very interesting regarding lockdown because the government, I will say, they did a really good job in Kuwait, where they shut everything down straight away. It's like, "Let's shut everything down, and let's see what happens." I think they can afford that as a government because they're kind of depending on oil money. So for them, it was kind of like, "Okay, we can kind of manage all of that."

Carlton Gajadhar:

But as a museum, it was really tricky because I think, everyone was in this situation worldwide. We had no idea what to do in that scenario, where you had loads of people with tickets contacting our guests, saying, "We're not open at the moment," and then trying to understand what to do with our staff after that as well. So it was a very, very tricky situation for us, while it's amazing.

Kelly Molson:

Was it similar to what it was like here? Were you allowed out? Could you go to the supermarket, that kind of stuff?

Carlton Gajadhar:

No. It was very different. It was two types of lockdown, so you had the lockdown, which means that all retail outlets and leisure outlets were all closed. So everything was closed, except the supermarkets and the pharmacies and hospitals, so they were the three things that were opened. And then on top of that, we had the curfew.

Kelly Molson:

Oh, right.

Carlton Gajadhar:

So we were only allowed to go out of our homes for a specific time. I think the most challenging one we had, was 22 hours curfew. So 22 hours in our homes and then 2 hours, we were all allowed to leave in 45-degree weather.

Kelly Molson:

Wow.

Carlton Gajadhar:

So if you didn't leave, you'll be literally stuck in your house. So I decided, why not start doing a 10k walk in 45-degree weather?

Kelly Molson:

Of course, it's exactly what would have gone through my mind.

Carlton Gajadhar:

Of course. It's something to do. It's something to do. So that's kind of what I did during lockdown and kind of just been there for my staff, on WhatsApp, and just making sure that everyone was okay. Unfortunately, at that point, my contract finished. So I was literally stuck in Kuwait because the airport wasn't open.

Kelly Molson:

Wow. Oh gosh.

Carlton Gajadhar:

Yeah. It was a challenging period but amazing at the same time.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah. It's so interesting to hear about everybody's individual experiences and what we've been through. I think even mine, it's horrible to say it out loud sometimes because I know how difficult it has been but actually, there was elements of mine that was really pleasant. It was easy for all of us to pick up our laptops, pick up our computers, and work from home. It's a very lucky position to be in but I quite liked working from home.

Kelly Molson:

I quite enjoyed that slightly slower pace of life. Not having to rush around quite a lot, was quite nice. But I'm thinking back now, to when it first started to happen and my first thought, when we saw our clients, who are in the attractions world and tourism world, when we saw them starting to close and then we could see the effect that it was going to have long-term, my instant reaction was like, what can we actually do to help?

Kelly Molson:

What is there, that we have that we can help? And we started, I think I sat down one Saturday and just started to pull together loads of resources that were being put out. People were very generous with their time and with the information that they were kind of putting out there. And so, I started a blog, where I started to collate support and advice for the industry and kind of bring it all together.

Kelly Molson:

And what I liked about what the two of you did as well and this is how we get around to talking about the sector cooperation is that, it's kind of like what you did as well, in various guises. Rachel, you shared a post on LinkedIn that I saw, that was a toolkit that you put together for frontline managers. And it was slightly kind of later down the process, so a few months after lockdown.

Kelly Molson:

But it was about how people could bring their front of house team back safely and what was important to them. And I thought this is fantastic, it's such a generous thing to do, to put that kind of information out there. How did that come about? How did you start to do that?

Rachel Mackay:

Yeah. So well, one of the things that I guess was a bit upset about in terms of furlough was that, as an Operations Manager, you wait your whole life for something like this to happen, so you can really get in there and manage a crisis, you know. And then I couldn't because I was on furlough, so I was just like, "Well, this is a terrible nightmare."

Rachel Mackay:

And so, one of the things I did, just to try and keep my head in the game was, to go out on Twitter and just ask if anybody needed a hand with their opening plans because that's something I really enjoy doing. Opening places and Carlton's the same, there's a real rush about re-openings and we're openings and we're excited, it's all good. And everybody was doing that.

Rachel Mackay:

And so, I talked to a few different organizations and helped them just kind of go, run through their re-opening plans and just kind of troubleshoot them and try and suggest things and that sort of thing. And so, that was really good. It kind of kept my head in the game but then, there was a common thread throughout a lot of these conversations. And some of the wider discussions within the sector, about front of house and most of them were furloughed.

Rachel Mackay:

And so, not really being consulted about what was going to happen, when they came back. And then, from a financial point of view, they were kind of mostly going to be brought back quite soon, before they were then expected to be on the floor, do everything. A complete role from what we've always asked them to do. We've always encouraged people to be very engaging and trying to get away from that idea of, particularly museums at the warder and the policing of the space.

Rachel Mackay:

And now we were going to have to ask them to do that and that's not what we hired them for and not what we trained them for, so it's a completely different role. And another thing was that a lot of first-time managers, so people who have come into their first supervisor or team leader or management job, a lot of them are quite young. It's maybe their first manager job.

Rachel Mackay:

And I was just worried that there wasn't going to be that support there for them to think through what they were going to have to do because everybody was so busy and so stretched. And so, what I wanted to do with that was just, was just create something that was not a manual because every site is going to be really different. But just took it, just to help people think through the things that they wanted ...

Rachel Mackay:

How they can best support front of house. So I asked, there's a lot of front of house people on Twitter and I asked them what they wanted to see when they came back and I thought by my own experience because I've worked front of house as well. And kind of put together something that I thought would be helpful.

Kelly Molson:

And it's been really well received, hasn't it and you've gone on and added ... You've actually now started a blog and added more and more resource to that as well. So there's obviously been a demand for that kind of information and help.

Rachel Mackay:

Yeah. Yeah. There was that and then there was other stuff to do with the fact ... So I was doing also my Master's research and crisis management at the same time. So there was resources that came out of that as well. So eventually, I just needed a place to put all this stuff into, allow people to access it, and also, to point other resources that were being helpful at the time because there was lots of other stuff coming out from the sector as well.

Rachel Mackay:

That's why I started that website, just to have a place really to put all this stuff so that it can be useful.

Kelly Molson:

It's brilliant. It's one of the heartwarming things that has come out of all of this is, how generous people have been and wanting to help and help others. I'd love to see that continue within the sector. I mean, I can see that that's happening. It's happening in other sectors as well and there's been so much advice that's been out there for agency leaders, that we've been able to draw down on and share with as well.

Kelly Molson:

Carlton, so prior, this has been set out for quite a number of years but the VE Forum, the Visitor Experience Forum, you were a Co-founder of that forum, right?

Carlton Gajadhar:

Yeah.

Kelly Molson:

Can you tell us a little bit about it? Because what I saw, was some really great kind of engagement in that community over lockdown and also, you put out webinars and things to help the sector?

Carlton Gajadhar:

Yeah. We started in 2016, so there was four of us and we were all heads of departments in various attraction. And I remember, we were just sitting down and we were just talking, "Okay, we're having all these issues and I bet there's people in the same shoes as us, that have the same issues but we just don't have the opportunity to talk about it." So we just decided, let's just do a little small event, a little meetup event in the bar and we did.

Carlton Gajadhar:

And we slowly found out that there was a massive need for a space for people, just to talk. I call it like the counseling sessions. Especially our meetups because as we're experienced professionals, we're constantly on the go. We just don't stop, so having that space to do and it's been amazing, the warmth and the welcome that we've received from people from all over the sector, it's been amazing. So far, we've got about 700 members.

Kelly Molson:

Wow.

Carlton Gajadhar:

..that is linked to the forum, from around about 350 attractions and businesses and then, we have associate members as well, which is about 250, that makes up. And then, alongside that, we have sponsors as well and with the combination of these people, we're literally making the industry better, in problem-solving and sharing information, in a very core and safe environment, where they can do so.

Carlton Gajadhar:

We mainly aim for management level, so anyone from heads of departments and up, that can come in and share ideas and areas. And we do also organize six different types of events, from meets up, as I mentioned. We do a seminar on an annual basis. The last one we did, we had about 300 people turn up for both our seminar and our awards ceremony, which we're really, really proud about.

Carlton Gajadhar:

But the main purpose of the forum, is literally sharing information and learning from each other and that is the key of what we do. We are all volunteers as well, so we don't get paid to do any of this. We do this kind of the goodness of our hearts because we're passionate about the sector and we love what we do and we just wanted to make sure that people enjoy their jobs, as well as we do as well.

Kelly Molson:

It's brilliant and I think it's that kind of field of dreams, type scenario, isn't it? If you build it, they will come. So you've built it and now people are really trying to come in and they really engage with it. Is that quite a new thing for the sector though? Has it always been like this or is that, just in recent years, people have become a bit more open to peer to peer learning and sharing experiences with each other?

Carlton Gajadhar:

I think there are other organizations that are out there but they're paid and I think that's a massive barrier for people that want to learn, that don't really have high paying jobs or not in really critical roles. So we kind of saw a need of them type of people. And just kind of being there for someone, who just needs an extra helping hand, who's not linked to your organization, it makes such a difference, such a difference.

Kelly Molson:

Yes and you've put, so some of the things that you've been doing to support the industry during lockdown, you've put out a number of webinars. You had a specialist LinkedIn group, which it was a really great place to go because what was lovely, is that every day, there was updates being posted in there about, the updates, what was happening.

Kelly Molson:

And so, it was kind of a realtime support for everybody, that was a member of that group and they could see all of the information that you were putting in there.

Carlton Gajadhar:

Exactly. Exactly. We're here to support people in the industry and anything we can do as a team to do so, we will. We're all about open communication, so if members have any questions about a procurement or how do I organize my Cumin system during COVID? What are you guys doing? Then they have that space on LinkedIn, where they can have the conversations.

Carlton Gajadhar:

So they don't even have to wait for us as an experienced forum, they can actually take the initiative themselves with the group of people around them, to build that network and build that connection, so everybody can make sure our visitors has the best experience possible.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah. And Rachel, you're a member of the Visitor Experience, so you kind of see it from the other side. So Carlton's talked a lot about how it's been set up and what they do. Now how have you found it as a member? Have you felt there's been an awful lot of support for you and it's been useful?

Rachel Mackay:

Yeah. It's a fantastic group. I mean, I think one of the best events I think that they do, are the hacks. They're [inaudible 00:24:44]. So hacks are when somebody has a particular problem, so for example, I held a hack when I worked at the Natural History Museum because I was trying to get rid of the Danish [RQ 00:24:53], which if anybody's ever been to the National History Museum, you'll know it was quite big.

Rachel Mackay:

And you have a hack, you just say, "I've got this problem." And they sort of sent a bad signal and the Visitor Experience Forum sort of descending with people who are interested in solving that problem and you all sit around a table and kind of hash out. And there was one recently at the London Transport Museum, looking at their entrance, it's just the most fun.

Rachel Mackay:

And it's so good if you are the person that has the problem because you have people who are interested in that problem, whereas with the operations, usually, you're the only person in your organization who does that. Whereas these are all attractions, these operations absolute geeks and I mean that in the best way possible.

Rachel Mackay:

And that's brilliant but then, as well just to be a participant in them, it's so refreshing to focus on somebody else's problems for a while. The one at the Transport Museum, I really enjoyed and that's just a really great thing to do. And something I don't think happened in a lot of other sectors as well. But the sector is like that, it's very open and very sharing. And the other side of it as well is the social side.

Rachel Mackay:

I mean, I love visitor attractions people. They're just the most fun. They've all got really dark awful senses of humor and they just have that kind of personality, where they're just fun people to go and get a drink with. And so, that social side is definitely something that we need to think about, how we're going to try and take that forward with the social restrictions that are in place at the moment. But that's a really important thing.

Rachel Mackay:

It's not just about the information and the sharing of experiences. That moral support as well.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah. It's interesting actually because I guess, Carlton, you've got a bit of a challenge on your hand, in terms of how you plan the events. I mean, usually, you'd be running events all throughout the year but I guess now, we're looking at 2021 and what that means and how you run them in the best way. Yes, we've all sat on webinars. They've had varying degrees of success, right, let's face it. They're not all brilliant.

Carlton Gajadhar:

Information sharing is as good as this one.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah. But you're very much being talked at a lot of the time and it's less collaborative, in a way. So I guess, that's a challenge for you, in terms of how you run a hack. Can you do this virtually now? How do you make those work? What was lovely is, I saw that there was a quiz night, wasn't there? There was a Visitor Experience Forum quiz night and I know that that went down really well.

Kelly Molson:

And I guess like you say, Rachel, that's a big part of being part of an organization and a group like this, that it's that social side of things. So it's really lovely to see that that could at least carry on.

Rachel Mackay:

Yeah. That was a really good night. I was hosting that with another member of the group and we kept on bringing, after a round, we'd just bring somebody up on the screen. So Carlton popped up from Kuwait with his little orange juice and it was so nice to see as well.

Rachel Mackay:

It was just so nice to see people in their back gardens or wherever they were. We hadn't seen our friends for a really long time and it was so nice to get to and chat, it was a really good evening.

Carlton Gajadhar:

Yeah.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah. It's lovely. So what are the plans, Carlton, do you have an idea about what it will look like for 2021 at the moment or is that all still kind of up in the air?

Carlton Gajadhar:

At the moment, it's still up in the air. So we're still really focused in organizing these events but we just kind of have to wait and see because of the social distancing measures and gatherings as well, that's set by the government, we just have to be very, very mindful and respect what's been said. But we're still keen on organizing our seminars, our award ceremonies, our meetups.

Carlton Gajadhar:

Some of them, we might just have to continue doing it virtually, which is not ideal but at least we can still have that contact with our members. We also do one-to-ones as well, so people will reach out to myself and other co-founders and try and get advice and stuff. So I did a lot of that when I was in Kuwait, so attraction would just kind of reach out and say, "Hey, we have this issue. Can I get some advice?"

Carlton Gajadhar:

I'm like, "Yeah, no problem. Happy to help on there." I was going to say, one of my favorite events we do at the forum is a seminar, and Rachel's been great. She's actually spoke at the seminar and how it is, it's like a mini TED Talk.

Rachel Mackay:

A very generous way of describing that.

Carlton Gajadhar:

No. No. I mean, it's great. So the mini TED Talk. The speaker has 10 minutes to share their message and I remember, Rachel was sharing her message about her Pagoda opening and kind of-

Rachel Mackay:

[inaudible 00:29:21] a euphemism.

Kelly Molson:

It's not that kind of show, Rachel.

Carlton Gajadhar:

Oh, isn't it? Oh, isn't it? Oh, sorry. I forgot.

Rachel Mackay:

That was a building actually, that we opened in [inaudible 00:29:32].

Kelly Molson:

Thank you for clarifying that.

Carlton Gajadhar:

What I love about the forum is, us given opportunities for our members to do stuff, that they would not normally do as well. So speaking at our conferences and building that confidence and building their personal profile, we've had two of our members actually go to America to actually speak at other Visitor Experience current based on their talk in our conference, which is fantastic.

Carlton Gajadhar:

So anything we can do to support. I mean, Rachel, I don't know if you remember this guy called James. He was like a young guy from the London Transport Museum?

Rachel Mackay:

Yes. Okay.

Carlton Gajadhar:

And he was brilliant because he was like an apprentice at the London Transport Museum and he was talking to us, there's a room of 100 filled people, Visitor Experience professionals and he goes, "If you were like working in this industry, if you like work in it, I would really recommend it."

Carlton Gajadhar:

And it was so brilliant having him talking about how the industry is for him because sometimes we forget because we're so caught up in our jobs, it's really refreshing. And that's what our seminars are all about, is giving a new perspective or reminding us of how we used to feel back in the day, so we can go back to our team.

Rachel Mackay:

There's not that many conferences where it's free, it's all folks from Visitor Experience. You've got your front of house people there, you've got front of house people speaking, you've got front of house people winning awards. There's not that many things in the industry, where that would actually happen. So it's just very simple but absolutely fantastic.

Kelly Molson:

Do you know what was really nice as well is, while you were talking about that Carlton, your face was literally lit up. There was a real kind of ... But it's nice, there was a real kind of sense of, I think pride probably because you've created something that it gives people these opportunities but it's really heartwarming to see.

Kelly Molson:

What I just want to go back to is, you mentioned about offering people one-to-one advice and just being completely open to help. And that for me, is the one thing that has been so again, heartwarming again to see throughout this crisis, is people just saying, "I'm here. Hit me up, I can help." Rachel, I know that you've been offering pro bono one-to-ones with people as well.

Kelly Molson:

Is that to share ... You talked a little bit about your MA research into crisis management. Is that to share some of your learnings from that with them, about the situation?

Rachel Mackay:

Yeah. So the research I was doing, which was meant to be on my exhibition and of course, [inaudible 00:32:19], so I swiftly changed it to crisis management, which felt quite pertinent. But yeah, that research was essentially ... I did 10 interviews with visitor operations people, about their experiences of shutting down.

Rachel Mackay:

And those transcripts have just ended up being the most fascinating and often, quite emotional at times. It was like, was really a couple of the most challenging weeks in somebody's career usually. There's a lot that's come out of that, in terms of learning and I feel that what a lot of our organizations haven't had the time to do yet, is actually sit down and look at their experience of that initial phase of that crisis management and the shutdown.

Rachel Mackay:

And have a bit of a wash-up and a bit of a lessons learned, which most people would do in any normal circumstance. Because this is a very odd shape of crisis and it's not over yet. It's kind of rotating into another crisis of a financial recession, people have been so focused on re-opening and staying open, that there just hasn't been the time to do that and it's a really valuable learning opportunity.

Rachel Mackay:

So what I'm going to be doing with a few organizations over the next few weeks is actually, going through that process with them and doing it for them, so that they can learn some of the lessons that they went through but also, from the research that I've been doing. So that if there is a second wave or there's a war or aliens invade or whatever the next unprecedented thing is, then people really are kind of ready for it.

Kelly Molson:

I was going to ask you actually about sharing maybe some top tips from your crisis management learnings. I mean, would that actually be one of them, is to go back and do a debrief of what's happened and really sit down and look at what happened in the processes?

Rachel Mackay:

Absolutely. I mean, it's such a valuable learning opportunity because we so rarely get to practice these muscles in real life. You might do your tabletop or exercises or your fire drills but this was a real-life crisis that happened to every single institution in the country and that's such a valuable learning opportunity.

Rachel Mackay:

There's a crisis manager scholar, called Patrick Lagadec, who calls crisis an abrupt and brittle audit, which I really love and I've stolen that title for my dissertation because I think that's the most important role that crisis does. It offers that opportunity to just really assess your skills at dealing with crisis and there's two adaptions that pass that really.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah. Yeah. For sure. I kind of want to talk about what comes next for the sector, in terms of how people have been incorporating and sharing their knowledge. I want to ask you both, what do you see next? Like you said Rachel, the crisis isn't ended. We're still in the middle of it, it's just mutating and changing every day.

Kelly Molson:

Do you think that this is something that's here to say, the level of support that people have been offering? What do you think it will look like and will continue to look like, as we continue to go into 2021?

Rachel Mackay:

I think you're right. I don't think it's a new thing. I think the sector has always been super open and helpful, in fact, one of the people that I interviewed, made the point that, if you were the head of Marks & Spencer's, you couldn't ring up next and be like, "How much money did you make last week?" You just wouldn't do it. Whereas, there always has been that within the sector.

Rachel Mackay:

So I think it's not something that people have just done because there's a crisis. It's something that has been ongoing throughout. I mean, it's definitely come out. When in my research, one of the big themes was, how great the sector was, and actually, that's filled a bit of a gap, in terms of maybe the communication from official channels wasn't always the clearest, in terms of this useful government do things.

Kelly Molson:

Which ended very quickly.

Rachel Mackay:

Yeah. And actually, even somebody I was interviewing as well, even the fact that they were at 05:00, meant that you couldn't make changes for the next day in your attraction. So things like that. So it really pumped a hole, that needed to be filled in terms of support and information and experience, most of that came from the sector.

Rachel Mackay:

In fact, in one of the surveys I did, 81% of people said that the most useful thing in terms of resources, was information from their colleagues in the sector, we have both gotten updates. It's something that has always been in the sector but has just come out a lot stronger. I think as we go forward, what I'm worried about is, the slightly more junior levels, so again, your first-line managers.

Rachel Mackay:

Because in my research, it came out that they didn't necessarily have the same networks as their more senior colleagues. That they felt a little bit more disconnected from the sector. So once we already had all these networks in place and we just kind of turned it up, they didn't necessarily have that. Now I worry, if this is a state that's here to stay that, how are they going to go to those networking events? How are they going to get started and build those networks?

Rachel Mackay:

I really don't want a whole generation of Visitor Experience managers to lose out on having that wider network because as we've seen it, it is so important. But then again, I think a lot of these things grow organically and people will find a way. When I first started out as a Manager, there wasn't the networks that you get into it or now, even just in museums, there's museum is muck, museum detox from past museums, all these grassroots groups that have grown up and a lot of it does happen online.

Rachel Mackay:

So maybe that's a way forward but I think it would be a shame if people couldn't meet face-to-face and have these conversations that we all know are really useful.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah, for sure. But it's about finding the ways that they can continue until we can get back to that point of doing more of the face-to-face things.

Kelly Molson:

I mean, Carlton, maybe just hearing from what Rachel said, maybe that's something that the Visitor Experience Forum can concentrate on, is that slightly junior level of people that don't have the network. The Visitor Experience Forum could be something that is key to that level of people.

Carlton Gajadhar:

Yeah. No, you're definitely right. Again, we're here for everybody who needs our support. I mean, we're mainly focused on senior management but there's always a need for the next generation of people in the industry, that need that support. I remember working in the industry way, way, way, long, long time ago, and didn't have any support at all, during my career when I came up.

Carlton Gajadhar:

So having the forum there in place, it has definitely helped out but also, having the people, members who are attending the forum, to share that information as well is key. 

Rachel Mackay:

Yeah.

Carlton Gajadhar:

It's no point holding that information in you, sharing that as well is very, very important.

Rachel Mackay:

And also I think it's the responsibility of senior managers to make sure that those people who are coming up in their team, do have access to that. I mean, I started going to the Visitor Experience Forum all those years ago because a more senior colleague brought me along.

Rachel Mackay:

So it's a responsibility I think, people have to take seriously. You have to usher them into the world and I hope that they don't get too drunk.

Kelly Molson:

It's probably more likely to be us getting drunk, isn't it? Let's face it.

Rachel Mackay:

Yeah.

Carlton Gajadhar:

Yeah, very true. Very true.

Kelly Molson:

I've loved speaking to you both. I've got one more question for you both before we end the podcast today and I always like to ask our guests, if there's been a book that's helped shape their career in some way or just a book that they absolutely love, that they'd love to share?

Rachel Mackay:

Yes, so I've got one. It's very heritage focused but it's called, Anarchist's Escape to Historic House Museums, by Franklin D Vagnone and Deborah Ryan and it really challenges what it means to be a historic host museum and goes against that very stayed guided tour model and looks at, what can it be as a visitor experience and what can it be, in terms of community value?

Rachel Mackay:

The author, Frank, he also does a project called, One Night Stand, where he goes and sleeps in different historic houses and then does a blog on it. He's American but he came to do one at Kew Palace and obviously, wouldn't let him anywhere near the beds but he is fantastic. But it was amazing and the way he sees historic houses has really shaped how I now deal with my historic properties and he's all about trying to use the house in as a natural way as possible.

Rachel Mackay:

One of the properties that I manage at Queen Charlotte's Cottage and it's a folly. It was never lived in, it's just a really posh summer house and we used to take people around in a tour. And then I realized that the point of that was so that the royal family could enjoy the gardens. And the minute I realized that it just completely changed how we used that space.

Rachel Mackay:

And then we put deck chairs, garden games out and it was about the outside of the cottage, not the inside.

Kelly Molson:

Right.

Rachel Mackay:

And so, I think that's really helped me to see actually if you can get as close as possible to the original purpose of that building, it just becomes a much more natural visitor experience. So yeah, that book has really shaped my thinking, in terms of that.

Kelly Molson:

Oh, lovely. All right, that's great. I really love that experience, that you've been through with the folly and understanding what it is that people ... They're not actually coming to look at the folly, it's almost about being inside it and looking out at everything else.

Rachel Mackay:

Right. It's about the visitor experience.

Kelly Molson:

Absolutely. Yeah. Who knew? Carlton, what about you, do you have one that you'd like to share?

Carlton Gajadhar:

Yeah. I think there's one book that I've read and really enjoyed and it's called, Insider In. It's very American style but it really focuses on how to put your customer in the center in everything you do.

Carlton Gajadhar:

So it talks about the different kinds of frameworks, kind of like customer journey mapping, empathy mapping, and why that is very important. But it also gives you really cool case studies as well in that book. So yeah, outside in, can't remember who it's written by. But for me, that one kind of jumps out at me.

Kelly Molson:

Brilliant. Great book recommendations. Well as ever, if you would like to win a copy of those books, if you head over to our Twitter account, which is: skip_the_queue, and retweet this episode announcement with, "I want Carlton's and Rachel's books," then you'll be in with a chance of winning them. It's been really brilliant to have you both on today.

Kelly Molson:

What we're going to do, in the show notes, we'll link out to the Visitor Experience Forum. It's free to join the Visitor Experience Forum, which is incredible and we'll put all of the details on how to do that in the show notes. Rachel, we will link out to your blog. If you can just give us the domain name for that?

Rachel Mackay:

Yeah. So it's threcoveryroomblog.com and practical resources have just gone out, which is a site shutdown template so that you can plan for another lockdown. And [inaudible 00:42:52] some practical training scenarios, that you can use for crisis management and tabletop exercises. So there's lots of free practical stuff going up there in the next few weeks, as well.

Kelly Molson:

Brilliant. It is incredibly useful. Please go and check that out. It is a really, really great resource. All the links to it will be in the show notes and that just leaves me to say, a massive thank you for having you both on the podcast today.

Rachel Mackay:

Thank you for having me.

Carlton Gajadhar:

Yeah. No, thank you very much for having us. It's been great.

Kelly Molson:

Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five-star review. It really helps others find us and remember to follow us on Twitter, for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned. Skip the Queue is brought to you by 

Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions, that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website rubbercheese.com/podcast.

Download The Visitor Attractions Website Survey Report - https://www.merac.co.uk/download-the-visitor-attractions-survey

We have launched our brand-new playbook: ‘The Retail Ready Guide to Going Beyond the Gift Shop’ — your go-to resource for building a successful e-commerce strategy that connects with your audience and drives sustainable growth.

Download your FREE copy here

Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is  Kelly Molson, MD of Rubber Cheese.

Download our free ebook The Ultimate Guide to Doubling Your Visitor Numbers

If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website rubbercheese.com/podcast
If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this episode.

Competition ends October 31st 2020. The winner will be contacted via Twitter.

Show references:

http://qlineconsulting.com/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/carlystraughan/

https://twitter.com/CarlyTPA

https://www.museumnext.com/article/is-instagram-culture-a-positive-influence-for-museums/

During the interview, I mentioned a weekly consumer sentiment tracker from the BDA. I actually meant the BVA, apologies. Link to the tracker below, it's brilliant.

https://www.bva-bdrc.com/products/tracking-consumer-sentiment-on-the-impact-of-covid-19/

Transcription:

Kelly Molson:

Welcome to Skip the Queue, a podcast for people working in or working with visitor attractions. I'm your host, Kelly Molson. Each episode, I speak with industry experts from the attractions world. These chats are fun, informative, and hopefully always interesting.

Today I'm talking to Carly Straughan. Carly began her career working in tourist attractions on a three-month contract until she found a real job. But almost 15 years later, she's still here. She now works with museums, arts, and heritage and tourist attractions worldwide and is a really passionate supporter of the industry. We discuss unpopular opinions, emerging innovation, the future of attractions, and why pre-booking is a benefit to attractions regardless of COVID. If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching, Skip the Queue.

Kelly Molson:

Carly, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. It's lovely to have you here.

Carly Straughan:

You're very welcome. It's great to be here.

Kelly Molson:

We've Zoom met, haven't we?

Carly Straughan:

Yeah.

Kelly Molson:

Because we had a Zoom chat during lockdown, which is lovely. That's how you're on the podcast today because I've dragged you on.

Carly Straughan:

Happy to be dragged. Happy to be dragged.

Kelly Molson:

I'm glad. I always start off with a few icebreaker questions. But even though we know each other, I don't know the answers to these questions.

Carly Straughan:

Oh gosh. I've got to think.

Kelly Molson:

You'll be fine. Okay. If you could travel back in time, what period would you go to?

Carly Straughan:

It would be Art Deco. I would be living in Butlins with very wide trousers on playing golf really badly.

Kelly Molson:

Oh, I love that.

Carly Straughan:

Yeah, I love that period of people were just sort of learning to enjoy their leisure time or the upper classes is just starting to really enjoy their leisure time and suddenly the working holiday act comes in and normal people start to get holiday. And we have that real sort of period of lots of people going to the seaside and Blackpool starts growing and all these kinds of spa towns pop up and I love that, that period that people just sort of really start enjoying themselves.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah.

Carly Straughan:

...Or seemingly start to enjoy themselves. And the art from that period of all the transport is such a big thing all of a sudden. Everyone's train traveling and yeah, just glorious.

Kelly Molson:

Something about the architecture from then as well, isn't it?

Carly Straughan:

Yeah.

Kelly Molson:

It's really, really striking.

Carly Straughan:

Yeah. If you've ever been to Elton Palace, Elton Palace in South East London, well, sort of on the outskirts of South East London-

Kelly Molson:

I haven't.

Carly Straughan:

It's really, truly stunning. That period would be mine. Absolutely.

Kelly Molson:

And you mentioned playing golf badly. What is your favorite hobby? Is it golf?

Carly Straughan:

Oh, god, no. No. I don't play golf. The only thing I like about golf is that there's a place... I think there's one or two in England. It's called Top Golf.

Kelly Molson:

Oh yeah.

Carly Straughan:

Which is kind of like golf but a bit more like bowling, so you don't... But no, I'm terrible at that too. But I'm sort of... It's nice to be bad at things sometimes, isn't it?

Kelly Molson:

Yeah.

Carly Straughan:

I'm bad at all my hobbies.

Kelly Molson:

I'm equally bad at golf to be fair. Anything that's hand-eye coordination like pool or golf or darts, I'm really bad at.

Carly Straughan:

Yeah. In my spare time generally, I run quite a lot, again really badly. I'm not very good at it. I'm very slow. But I can generally run for a long time and I like it. It's a nicer sort of in your own space activity.

Kelly Molson:

It's quite mindful, isn't it?

Carly Straughan:

Yeah, definitely. I started running in 2014. And then I thought, "Well, I've started running now, so I'll run a marathon." And so I went from never having run really, to running a marathon in a year which now I realize is a stupid thing to do.

Carly Straughan:

If you're looking for something to be mindful with... I'm not very fast at all. My first marathon, I did six and a half hours. Nothing's going to make up in your head more than six and a half hours of running really slowly.

Kelly Molson:

Had a lot to think about that day?

Carly Straughan:

Yeah. A real lot.

Kelly Molson:

That's an amazing achievement to do that or of anyone that can do a marathon. So awesome. All right. Last icebreaker question. I've shamefully stolen this from the Greg James Breakfast Show. He has a part on there where he asks people to phone in with their unpopular opinions and I love it.

Carly Straughan:

Of course.

Kelly Molson:

I want you to tell me something that you think is true but hardly anyone agrees with you.

Carly Straughan:

Oh, God.

Kelly Molson:

Your unpopular opinion.

Carly Straughan:

I'm the queen of unpopular opinions.

Kelly Molson:

I like it. Great. Bring it on.

Carly Straughan:

My husband has a joke, we have a running joke about the fact that I always want a tattoo and my idea for a tattoo is just the phrase, "I didn't really think it through." Just to have, whatever so you can see it. Because things come out of my mouth and I don't generally mean to say them. I tried to think of something that I... I once did tell some people that I thought that Devon had no shops in it. I still stand by that fact. But whenever I sell things on eBay, especially when I used to live in London, so I have a lot of... I have a clothes addiction, it's pretty bad.

Carly Straughan:

So whenever I sold clothes, it would always be people in Devon and Cornwall that bought them and my opinion about that was just because they just don't have shops.

Kelly Molson:

How strange? That's a really weird coincidence.

Carly Straughan:

I got shouted down about it but I was like, "No. I stand by it."

Kelly Molson:

All right. I think that counts. That definitely counts as an unpopular opinion.

Carly Straughan:

Yeah. You'll be getting letters in now from people that live in Devon and Cornwall saying, "We do have shops and they're very good."

Kelly Molson:

I am a little bit worried actually, when these podcasts air about what feedback I'm going to get. Okay. Right. 15 years in the attraction sector. That's how long you've been working in it.

Carly Straughan:

Yeah.

Kelly Molson:

Tell me what you've been doing and where and how you've got to what you're doing now.

Carly Straughan:

When people say, "Oh, how did you get started in your career?" And I say, well, I had a ski season booked. I met my husband at the end of university and I had a ski season booked. We went and did a snow season. And I needed a job between leaving University and starting this ski season. I had two jobs they offered me and one of them was a recruitment agency and I think it was £20,000 pounds a year. And the other one was Madame Tussauds in London and that was not £20,000 pounds a year. Let's be very clear.

Carly Straughan:

And it was just working in the retails shop and on photography and I thought well, I'm only going to be there for three months. I don't really want to go and take a job that I'm going to have to train for, I was already working in retail part-time. I will just take a short job that'll last three months. I'll go and do something else afterward. I'll get a real job. Do you know what? If someone had told me at some point during all the careers just you do at school and all that kind of thing, I really wish someone at some point had said to me, "You can work in tourist attractions," because honestly, it changed my life.

Carly Straughan:

Those three months were some of my best working ones. I sold Maltesers and guidebooks and whatever. This was not a career plan by any means. But I met some great people, people, I'm still friends with. My three months were up and I went off and did my ski season. And when I came back from ski season, I literally landed in London, unpacked my stuff into a shared house, and went to work the next day back at Madame Tussauds.

Kelly Molson:

Oh, wow.

Carly Straughan:

I just loved it. I was so excited to go back. I was really happy to be there. And then they started a graduate program and I was the second intake of that graduate program. The one before us were still before it was Merlin Entertainments when it used to be the Tussauds Group. But this is the first-ever Merlin Entertainments graduate program. There were seven of us. I'm still friends with everybody off that program. We did each other's jobs. It was literally just a job swap for two years.

Kelly Molson:

Gosh.

Carly Straughan:

We went and did lots of different things. I worked in HR, I managed food and beverage. I did all sorts of jobs, events, entertainment, costuming, all kinds of stuff, and absolutely loved it. I stayed with them for seven years. I did two years on the graduate program and then five years sort of working in various attractions. I run weddings at White Castle, I managed the aquarium down in Brighton and the Sea Life Center and I then went up and ran the LEGOLAND Discovery Center up in Manchester and help the most in the Sea Life up there.

Carly Straughan:

I got really involved in till projects. We had a till projects where everybody was changing their software and that you don't see these things for what they are at the time, I guess, but looking back, it was such as a coincidence. I was a person and this pretty IT literate and they were looking for somebody in the attraction to go and train over in America. I had never really been anywhere. And they said, "Do you want to go to the back of beyond in Pennsylvania and learn this ticketing system?" And I went, "Yeah, I'll go. Me."

Kelly Molson:

Take me.

Carly Straughan:

Yeah. I went and I learned this till system and then I helped with the rollout of that till system as kind of an operations IT person, sort of translating between the two, this is what the business is doing and this is what IT needs and making that work. And then from there, I then started working for Gateway Ticketing. So Gateway was the software that I went and learned out in the States, they opened up the London office and I snapped their handoff and went to work for them. I was with Gateway then for six years. Worked all over the place.

Carly Straughan:

I just had the best time working with attractions and got to see some really cool stuff. I've been out to Shanghai, I've been out to Dubai, I've been here there and everywhere and with our attraction partners. And then last year, the... I'm like, "What year is it?" 2020 is killing me.

Kelly Molson:

Who knows?

Carly Straughan:

It could be anything. In 2019, me and my husband decided we kind of weren't that fussed about where we were living and I was commuting into London most days and we had a kind of a bit of a lifestyle kind of change discussion about we wanted to kind of do something different. I was working from home a lot when I wasn't doing the... My commute was quite long. I was working out of our spare room and it just... We sort of thought, "Well, what are we doing? What do we want to do in the next X years of our lives?" So we upped sticks. We moved up north or sort of. As Midlandsy as the North can be, just South of Sheffield.

Carly Straughan:

We bought a house that has some land on it and I left Gateway Ticketing on really good terms. They are a fantastic bunch of people, it's just we'd grown so much in those six years that I was with them that the job I'd started doing wasn't really the job I finished doing.

Kelly Molson:

Right.

Carly Straughan:

And I was ready to sort of go and do something else. I became self-employed last year and I've been helping people now find ticketing solutions. Yeah, it's been... When I think about the person that went for three months at Madame Tussauds to sell guidebooks, I never imagined it would end with people calling me and asking me my opinion about tourism. Because at the time, I had no opinions about tourism. I had no idea it even existed as a career and I wish someone had told me earlier, really do.

Kelly Molson:

What an amazing adventure you've been on though. I love how you described where you kind of started from one place and you moved all the way around. You've done everything in so many different attractions. You said you ran weddings and then you ran the aquarium and it's like, wow, how varied your career possibly have been?

Carly Straughan:

It's funny because I went to university and people ask me what I did at university, I did performing arts and English. I have literally nothing to do with management or business or tourism or anything. I just loved it. I've always liked the kind of back of house elements of a theater. And I think that's where the two intersect.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah.

Carly Straughan:

I'd always liked that element of sort of show business and I think... People always said to me, "Did you go and do performing arts at university because she wanted to be an actor?" Absolutely not. I have no intention of acting at all, ever. But I always had an interest in what was happening backstage that makes the show happen. I think that that's where I see it really is that I do the stuff that nobody notices.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah.

Carly Straughan:

The stuff that you do notice is seamless. When I talk to people about ticketing, obviously all the time, and they say to me, "Well, who cares about ticketing?" No, that's right. That's the right thing. You shouldn't care about when you buy a ticket, it should be absolutely seamless.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah, I completely agree.

Carly Straughan:

You should not remember it. I tell people all the time, lots of people will say to you, "Oh, going to Disney is expensive. Going to Universal is expensive." When you feen, very few people can tell you actually how much it costs.

Carly Straughan:

Because by the time they've had that experience, they don't care. The cost is gone. And you shouldn't remember, "Oh, yeah. I spent $100 on a ticket." You should just remember that you bought a ticket at some point but it gave you this amazing experience.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah. And once you got through the gates, everything was magic and you didn't even care.

Carly Straughan:

Yeah. Absolutely. And that your memory of that is always going to be stronger than your memory of the transactional stuff. The transactional stuff has to happen but it doesn't need to be a part of your experience really. It should be forgettable almost instantly.

Kelly Molson:

I love that. I actually really... When you said about your performing arts background, I was thinking experience the whole time because it is a show, isn't it?

Carly Straughan:

Yeah.

Kelly Molson:

It's ultimately that. From the minute that somebody turns up at an attraction, you are creating that show experience for them from start to finish. I think that having that kind of background must have played a small part in pushing you in that kind of direction.

Carly Straughan:

Yeah. I just want to say that's always been my interest. It's just when you talk to someone about, "Oh, I want to do English and performing arts and..." People say, "Oh, great. You're going to be a teacher or you're going to go and work in a theater," or whatever. No one ever thinks, "Oh, yeah. Well, how many actors or show producers do I know who work out at Disneyland Paris?" Yeah, but no one ever tells you that that's something that you could go and do.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah. What's the best thing about the role that you now have because now you are a consultant and you work with a variety of different attractions up and down the country. What's the best thing about what you're doing?

Carly Straughan:

It's always been the people, I think, quite honestly. I love people. You couldn't do this job if you didn't. Yeah, I think for me, it's the people that you meet because they're always fascinating. People are always interesting and the variety of what I get to do. I have conversations with nonprofit organizations and I have conversations with totally profit-based organizations who really want to drive every penny. And they think that they're really different. And actually, they're not. Actually at the core of what they want is that they want to give a really good experience regardless of kind of profit, nonprofit, all that. All the other things.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah.

Carly Straughan:

And I find that really interesting. I find the reaction to the things you talk about is quite interesting in terms of if you go to a big nonprofit organization. So let's say we go to the Victoria and Albert Museum, we go to the VNA, and we talk to them about ticketing. There's no point saying to them, "Oh, and we also do ticketing for Disney," or, "I also worked on this for Universal." Because they don't see themselves in the same space. But they're absolutely in the same space.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah. It's funny, isn't it?

Carly Straughan:

They're competitors and no one sees it that way.

Kelly Molson:

I had the same conversation with someone a few weeks ago about this, how a lot of museums don't see themselves as attractions. I can't work that out in my head why would feel so differently about them or feel that they're not the same. They don't have the same challenges.

Carly Straughan:

Yeah. And I've always been of the opinion that you said about oh, it seems like quite a strange career path to think weddings at White Castle versus managing an aquarium. And they are very different. But actually, all you're doing is providing an experience to someone. What's beyond the door is sort of irrelevant. You need to still have people come in and pay you and do the transactional stuff, whether they come in and they get, I don't know, dinosaur exhibit or they get an aquarium or they get roller coasters is kind of irrelevant because they're all competing against each other for a time.

Carly Straughan:

The easier you can make that process or the easier you can make that judgment for someone, that choice, you're going to be more successful because you're competing against a PlayStation at home or you're competing against going and sitting on the beach for free or going to the local park. But you're also competing against people that you've no idea that are in your area. It's endlessly interesting to me. I spend my leisure time doing what I do in my work a little work time. I live at Butlins Holiday. I go and I take pictures of signage and pictures of tills. It is sad but it entertains me endlessly.

Kelly Molson:

I know. I love that about you and I think this is why we ended up connecting because I saw an article that you wrote for MuseumNext, which I loved and then I started stalking you on Twitter.

Carly Straughan:

Oh god. If you stalk me on Twitter, it's where you get all my real actual... That's where my unpopular opinions live. I can tell you.

Kelly Molson:

It's the best bit though.

Carly Straughan:

I love Twitter.

Kelly Molson:

I kind of started following you on there and I loved what you talked about. I love the kind of personality you show on there, but I really loved what you... I loved how much you love the sector. You are the first person that I look to see what's happening next, what opinions you've got about innovation and stuff. I just think it's brilliant. There's so much passion there for you. And I guess there's some things I want to talk about about the future. But I kind of just want to look back quickly because I want to ask what lockdown was like for you both kind of personally and professionally because you sit in a position of…

Kelly Molson:

You absolutely love attractions. That shines through in everything that you do and talk about, but you work with them as well. It must have been a really difficult time to kind of watch some of your favorite places close and not really know what was going to happen. And also not know what was going to happen for you with probably some contracts that you had in place as well.

Carly Straughan:

Yeah. Like I say, the end of 2019 was a big change for me personally anyway. I became self-employed, we moved away from where we'd been living previously. We've kind of decided that this is a new world for us. And so I then suddenly had all these plans, not just work plans. One of my things was that I planned to spend a lot of this year traveling, which I keep saying to people, I'm like the person that buys sandals before a bank holiday and I've got to apologize to everyone because I had done a lot of plans to travel this year and to sort of spend a lot of time networking and really building my business.

Carly Straughan:

And obviously, then, very quickly it became obvious that we weren't going anywhere. So sorry, everyone. That was me. But yeah. Because I do a lot of work with China and I do a lot of research around construction and obviously, there's a lot of construction going on in theme parks in China at the moment. I kind of felt like I had a bit of a heads up as to what was coming because I'm so involved in that market. And I could see things sort of creeping towards us and getting canceled. I have some contacts that I deal without in the very far end of Russia. And they very quickly were like, "This is going to be bad." We're closing casino construction."

Carly Straughan:

Casino construction doesn't stop for anything, because there's so much money in it. Sort of thinking, "Oh, god, this is going to be really difficult." But not sort of realizing how sort of emotionally difficult it was going to be for people. In terms of we are all very passionate and sometimes I think that can be a downside as well, is that all industries are affected. Life is very hard at the moment but because we're so attached to our jobs and the institutions that were involved in and the attractions that we deal with that actually it becomes much more personal.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah.

Carly Straughan:

I'm sure everybody feels that... Maybe not everybody feels that way about their industry, but the people that I know generally do. My husband works in Pubs for example. You can imagine. It's very similar. People are very, very scared and very... Their personalities are wound up in what jobs they're doing and all that kind of stuff. It can be really... And I've seen it with lots of people who have just... Being really emotionally difficult just even things like being furloughed, they're still sitting at home and being paid but you're not doing the things that you sort of feel you're compelled to do. And feeling quite isolated, which... I said I've been volunteering at a local charity here. And I said to the guy, they were like, "What made you volunteer?" And I said it's really difficult to explain to people if you've never worked in this but I've worked in jobs where I saw thousands of people every day.

Carly Straughan:

I used to have a desk when I worked in Sea Life and I could open the door and look at the queue and pretty much predict how many thousands of people we would get through the door that day and be relatively close to it. You'd see maybe 3,000 people filing past my desk, just the other side of the door. And I'd say to go from being at big conferences and networking events and the stuff that I do in the industry all the time to seeing nobody for a few months was really terrifying. Because I've never lived like that.

Carly Straughan:

And for me, I think I have a very, thought about running, a very fight or flight response to that kind of stress. But literally flight. If I'm in a position where I think okay, I've had a project canceled or something, what's the thing that I'm going to do to replace that? I'd go to a big networking event. I'd get on a plane and I'd go to Orlando and I'd go and see some people out there and we'd figure something out. You can't do that. All of a sudden, all the normal responses to this kind of personal difficult stuff become totally unavailable to you. My diary is notoriously full of networking events, conferences, whatever because that's where I'm really comfortable. I love the people and the genius of it and to suddenly have that taken away.

Carly Straughan:

Regardless of the financial implication, I was being very lucky in that... Well, unlucky in some respects because I'm so newly employed, I'm not eligible for any financial backing, which is difficult.

Kelly Molson:

Right, yeah.

Carly Straughan:

But also because I made this decision to go freelance last year, but actually I had a good pot of savings, it's going to get me through it. Actually, pretty lucky in that respect. But regardless of kind of the financial situation with all the stuff that I normally do, to make that better, was suddenly unavailable. And August is always a hard month for contractors in this industry because no one wants to talk to you. Everyone's too busy doing stuff.

Kelly Molson:

Yep.

Carly Straughan:

And actually, it's rolled around to August and I can see things improving but you just don't know at the moment. You're sort of thinking, is this a quiet August because August is always quiet or is this kind of a sign of things to come? But I do feel more hopeful than I did in kind of March, April time, because March, April time, we were really looking at lots of places saying, "We just don't think we're going to be able to open."

Kelly Molson:

Yeah.

Carly Straughan:

And there was a real sort of panic about it. I sit on a couple of groups that do catch up calls every few weeks and sort of watching people who work in the industry going one by one, "Okay. We thought we were going to reopen. We're not reopening." There are still people that I deal with that aren't going to reopen now for 2021.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah.

Carly Straughan:

I think I actually... In March, April time, you sort of were checking people off as that was happening. I feel like it's sort of starting to go back the other way a little bit now. Hopefully, things are going in the right direction.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah. It does. It feels like... It is still a difficult time, a really, really challenging time. And even with some of the attractions that we work with that are opening, we still don't really know what the demand is going to be like, especially for indoor attractions. It's still a very difficult time. It's hard to plan. But it does feel more hopeful. I completely agree with you on that.

Carly Straughan:

Yeah. And I think that's a... You're right. The stuff that feels hopeful is a feeling. We're still not sure. And even looking at places that are outdoor and thinking about things like the National Trust, which should be super resilient to this kind of... There's Mainely Outdoor, there are very big organization. Actually, I think in some cases, that's not working in their favor is that they're resilient to some change, but the stuff that you don't see coming, the stuff that certainly blindsides you like lockdown and all the stuff that's going on this year, is that if you don't have an organization that can really turn very quickly and pull in lots of expertise very quickly and make changes, makes decisions really quickly, is that you just won't survive it.

Carly Straughan:

And that I think is more scary actually for the really big places than it is for the smaller ones. The smaller organizations will be able to make those changes, even if it's very difficult financially for them. They'll be a little bit more resilient because they'll be able to change how they operate quite quickly. We've seen things like the National Trust and the really big sites, just don't have the ability to turn stuff around. And that's... We will see a very different landscape, I think when we come out of it. And coming out of it is another thing. We talk about returning to normal. I don't think anybody really believes now that we're going to return to normal suddenly.

Kelly Molson:

No.

Carly Straughan:

There's never going to be the same normal again.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah, I have to agree with you on that. And actually, we've seen that from the weekly tracker that the BDA has been sending out, that at the start of the lockdown, there was an assumption that by Christmas things would be back to normal. And now, that's shifting further and further and further and further into 2021.

Carly Straughan:

Yeah. Anyone who studies history will tell you, "Oh, it'll all be over by Christmas," is the worst. Let's not start on that because 10 years later, we'll still be doing it.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah.

Carly Straughan:

The other sort of angle on that as well is that we're talking about people who are already in the industry, who remember what it's like to have tourism growth every year and there's always a market for tourism and there's always a market for whatever it is. We've had lots of new tourist attractions popping up all over the world. People are moving their middle classes, much more leisure time, much more disposable income. But I have a 16-year-old niece. And I talked to her and she's really gotten her back reference for that.

Carly Straughan:

She'll enter this job market with this... At the beginning and much in the same way when I entered the job market, we were hitting the recession. This is 100 times worse than that. And I think that will be interesting to see play out is that how does that affect really longterm, not just the people that remember when stuff was really good but we're going to be bringing people into the industry who really don't have any prior knowledge of what that was like. It will be interesting to see how that plays out, I think over the next 10 years of those people really mature into the job market.

Kelly Molson:

What I'd like to do is just take a bit of time to look at what we think the future of attractions can actually be at the moment. Are there any positives that can come from what we've seen happen? And then do you think... You talked a little bit earlier about how you network and that essentially you would jump on a plane, you'd go somewhere, you'd go to a big event, you'd go to a big conference.

Kelly Molson:

Obviously, none of those things can happen but there are conferences happening virtually now. So we are seeing, a shift in that sense. What kind of other things do you think that we'll see in terms of innovation and change from attractions?

Carly Straughan:

Let's start with conferences. There's a lot more access now, the costs are lower, I don't have to fly, stuff is becoming more accessible and I'll talk about that again when we get to sort of what our attraction is doing. But actually, I don't think there's anything that replaces face to face.

Kelly Molson:

No.

Carly Straughan:

And especially in an industry that is so people-focused, there's so much that you just cannot do. It needs to be more of a conversation. And I think that is when you're talking about online conferences and it's much more of an output than a conversation. I love a good conference. Don't get me wrong. I did say to someone the other day, "I'd even go to a really terrible conference right now." I just want to say, they're-

Kelly Molson:

Just to talk to people.

Carly Straughan:

Yeah, just somebody telling me something that I don't even believe is fine. I'll just sit there and eat sandwiches. Great. But I do think that we are an industry that really relies on face to face and really relies on people being in the same room. And I think that goes through attractions as well is that you can have an experience at home. One of the ones that I really loved actually was the Tate did Tate Lates Online, which was brilliant. And again, that kind of payoff between access versus actual experience was that I loved Tate Lates but I now live quite far away from London. If I want to go to Tate Lates, I have to stay overnight.

Carly Straughan:

It's fine. I don't mind doing that. I'll mix it in with some work and we'll go do it. But actually, to be able to experience Tate Lates in my own living room was really lovely.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah.

Carly Straughan:

And actually, we haven't been serving those communities really well. I think that that move to saving online communities really needs to be focused on more and I think that might be the article that you referenced earlier about MuseumNext was that I think we should be doing so much more to engage our online communities or our remote communities. Because your community isn't just who's on your doorstep, it's not the people coming through your front door.

Carly Straughan:

Actually serving your community doesn't necessarily mean letting people in your building. You can be servicing a community online, you can be serving a community of enthusiasts who really love your mission, who really want your attraction to be successful but they don't necessarily need to visit.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah.

Carly Straughan:

And I think there's going to be hopefully a bit more progress in that area as well in terms of making things more accessible to people who just really can't get to you for whatever reason and I think actually, in terms of leveling the playing field, about not feeling... The other stuff that's going on in 2020 is really around access, the Black Lives Matter movement, and this kind of pushing for things like universal basic income, which I'm just passionate about, but that's another thing.

Carly Straughan:

It's really about where do we serve people? At what point do we stop people from accessing something? Whether that's because of their appearance or their disabilities or whether that's their income level, whatever it might be, is actually when we talk about things like who's our ideal customer and who is using our... Whether it's a museum collection of who's coming to a theme park or whatever it might be, is that we're always discounting somebody because they can't either physically get to it or they feel excluded somehow. Actually, we could be doing a lot more, I think, as an industry to be much more inclusive of that.

Carly Straughan:

And I hope that seeing that we can do a lot more things online actually will push people to do more. There's things that you can't do online. You can't ride roller coasters. There's a lot of stuff that I love about this industry that you cannot replicate online, but that doesn't mean you're always looking to replicate. You can be just adding, you can just be giving additional content.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah.

Carly Straughan:

And I think that those people that really get on board with that and again how quickly can you turn on stuff like Tate Lates Online, how quickly can you... I've been talking or seeing in the industry about online escape rooms. What a brilliant idea for museums to be in your home? And I think if you can turn those types of things around, actually, you'll be better off for it and that will make you more resilient. I had a conversation with somebody I work with recently about being a three-legged stool is that a lot of our museums we've seen recently and I use museums kind of loosely because I mean, kind of heritage, attractions of all kinds. Some of it that you would see as having a collection of something, whatever that collection might be, is that quite a lot of them rely quite heavily on one leg.

Carly Straughan:

And that actually, we need to get that stool more legs basically. We've been sort of ignoring the people that don't come to our physical space. And actually, I hope that we'll see a little bit more of that. I'm a pretty positive human being. I think as hard as times are, there's always been a leisure industry. There's always been museums, there's always been such service attractions for people to go to. We've had such good times the last sort of... Again, we're sort of starting in the '80s, really when people really started to think about international travel and all that kind of stuff, is that we've had real boom times. A lot of countries around the world are really pushing people into their middle classes now. And that actually, this is just going to take us back a little while. But we've been here before. We've done hard things before.

Carly Straughan:

People just need to adapt and those that don't adapt won't survive. And that's terrible. But I'm a big believer in if your mission is strong enough, if your proposition is good enough, there will always be a market for you. Even if it's not having a building, you can still have somebody that is passionate about you. I think one of the things we discussed before I came on this podcast is that I've been working with a higher education college out in Massachusetts in the States about them developing a museum of mental health. And they've been discussing having a museum of mental health for a very long time.

Carly Straughan:

And through similar article about virtual museums and what's happening with lockdowns and all that kind of stuff, they got in touch with me and I've had a couple of conversations with them in which we've basically now developed a whole concept around what a virtual museum could look like because they know that they're never going to really be able to have a physical space.

Carly Straughan:

They'd like some physical collections. They'd like some loan boxes and they'd like to have some pop-up stuff going on, but they don't really need a physical museum of mental health. We're discussing with them, what does a virtual museum look like? Could I go and... It's not just a website. I don't want to go and just look at your collection and click on pictures. I want to get lost in it. I want the experience that I get some a real museum. And that would be... I could walk different galleries, I can pick up different pieces of art or design or whatever it might be and I can make links that make sense to me as an individual and not just seeing a collated web page. I think that's where we've fallen down before in that sector is that we just want to serve content all the time.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah. There's no experience into it at all.

Carly Straughan:

Yeah. Absolutely.

Kelly Molson:

You can't choose what you do or you can only choose what you look at.

Carly Straughan:

Yeah. And I think that if you could get lost in a website in the same way as you get lost in a physical space and that might even be as much as going down the route of some sort of virtual reality experience. What does that look like for people? Could you ever create something virtual that people really truly get lost in? And it's a great conversation to have with people who are really interested in mental health because actually a lot of it is quite cerebral anyway.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah.

Carly Straughan:

About what does this kind of experience look like? And how does that change your emotion? And how does that... Yeah. It's fascinating. We're having a lot of fun deciding what we'd do with it. And we're talking to games designers and people who design physical spaces and saying, "Okay. Well, if we built it so I could walk the rooms, I could walk the galleries. Actually, would I pay to go into a different gallery like I would at a normal museum?" I think we're going to find a lot out. I think this is a catalyst for change. And I really hope that it inspires the older, bigger museums or attractions to get on board with that.

Kelly Molson:

It sounds really exciting as well, doesn't it? An opportunity to do something that is so different. I guess in a way, you can collaborate with more people as well because it's virtual and because it's an online process.

Carly Straughan:

Sure.

Kelly Molson:

There are kind of less barriers to actually go on ahead and doing it in the first place in terms of cost.

Carly Straughan:

And I think... That's a huge thing that you could put thousands into building a gamified platform that people could walk around with avatars or whatever. And actually, you're still not putting money into a building but you don't have to upkeep and all that stuff that comes with it. And I think we talk about this and it seems really far fetched, but think about trying to explain something like Spotify to someone who's just got a tape player.

Carly Straughan:

I can't imagine that something would serve me up. It would understand that I'm listening to this song and maybe I like this other song because at the moment, I literally have a tape player that plays in order. I think we've made those massive leaps in recent years. Attractions have always been that little bit behind. I think this is going to really accelerate that kind of change.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah. I completely agree. I think it is a time for attractions that can... If attractions can be innovative now. And like you say, actually, the ones that do have their mission in place, they have a really kind of strong and solid offer. And are going to get through this. But it is the time to innovate now because they can't assume that the way that they'll continue to open will be the way people will continue to want to interact with them.

Carly Straughan:

Yeah.

Kelly Molson:

That's my next question really, is what your thoughts are for the next, three, six, 12 months. We've talked quite a lot about attractions that are reopening now. Again, there's still that level of uncertainty around how many people are going to come back depending on whether it's an indoor and outdoor attraction. We've seen incredible demand for places like zoos and wildlife parks like you say, national parks again. Massive overwhelm, but we just don't know what it's going to be like in terms of indoor and you do have that capped capacity to think about all the time. What do you think that means for the next kind of six months from now? How does that look?

Carly Straughan:

Yeah. I just want to talk actually about capped capacity before I think about that because I've been banging on about capped capacity for a long time. Pretty much in a previous life a long time ago, I went and spoke to Warner Brothers before they opened the Harry Potter Experience.

Kelly Molson:

Right.

Carly Straughan:

And I remember them saying to us at the time, "You will not be able to come to this attraction without pre-booking." And it blowing people's minds. Literally, people sitting there saying, "But no one will come." Literally, no one will come if you have to pre-book. And they've been open a very long time. I can't remember how many years it is but it's long enough ago that I can't remember, to put it that way. And just, they're still fully booked.

Kelly Molson:

The demand for it is incredible. They're booked months in advance.

Carly Straughan:

Yeah. And you sort of think well hang on a minute, we've been looking at that. And I also then, again, previous job before I joined Gateway and started looking at the till systems around was that I worked in an attraction where we would routinely have a six-hour queue. Well, I can tell you something. Nobody has a good experience after they have queued for six hours. Right? They just don't. And so I was trying to work out at that time, how do we... Can we give people a space in a queue? Can we rent some sort of virtual queuing setup?

Carly Straughan:

I wish it had come in a better package. But I do think that will really improve some of our experiences, is that if you have to pre-book. People will plan more. People will be more... They will say, "Oh, I'm coming on Sunday." And they'll come on Sunday, and if they don't come, it's probably because the experience isn't exciting enough or it's free. Which we've seen with a lot of attractions is that if you put free tickets out, people will snap them up and then they won't come. That's something to get around.

Carly Straughan:

There's ways around making that work. But yeah, I think... If you can get people to pre-book, you can manage your resources internally better. There's lots of things you can do that will improve your business and make your business easier to run because you'll know how many people you're going to service that day.

Kelly Molson:

Don't you think as well, it's about create... Warner Brothers have done it incredibly because it's so super exciting. You're buzzing to get that ticket and to get there, but it is about creating that excitement, isn't it? Make your attraction. You need to book that ticket and you need to book it three months in advance because this is going to be the best experience you've ever had.

Carly Straughan:

Yeah. And I would also say about that level of experience and demand is that it allows them to price very accurately. Because they know that they can keep a headline price, I think it's 39 pounds at the moment off the top of my head, and you go, "Gosh, 39 pounds is a lot of money." But actually, you don't have to discount at that point. Because you're booking so far out, you know that if demand starts to fall off, you can lower your price. If your demand starts to ramp up, you can increase your price, all this kind of stuff that you can really have.

Carly Straughan:

If you just have people turning up at your door, I come from a Merlin background where you can get two for one ticket continuously from some outlet throughout the year. Well, then nobody's paying full price, so what's your yield on that ticket? And again, that whole thing about being more resilient to changes is that those are the types of things that will keep you going because you'll be able to accurately predict what's happening than just opening your doors and maybe seeing if people sign up and if it rains, they don't. Those types of things. Or the total opposite. When I worked in an aquarium, is if it rains, you'd be busy. But you just don't know.

Carly Straughan:

There's so many variables that can affect your business. Is that actually I think, as we... I would rather it came in a nicer package than the way 2020 years is to live with it, but maybe it will make us sort of better organized.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah, I agree.

Carly Straughan:

Yeah. In terms of sort of the three, six, 12 months, I think the next three months is really just to hold your breath and hope because I think we'll get through the summer. If they have a bad summer and we go into winter with very lean finances for people, is that we'll see a lot of things that don't open next year because people... Most attractions can't weather essentially three winters. And so if we have an okay, summer, I think we'll be fine. And especially for those outdoor attractions. If we have a good weather summer, then those attractions will probably be okay.

Carly Straughan:

But yeah, I do think next spring might just be really difficult because I think a lot of places will have to come to the conclusion that they just can't operate. And I do have a sort of a... Again, I'm really positive about things. And then I'm like, "I've got a really horrible feeling about winter." But I do think that if we have another lockdown over winter which I just think is sort of inevitable at this point, is that we will really be... Those attractions that open 365 will really be in serious trouble. Yeah, I do worry about it. I think next spring is going to be the time that we see actually it really sucked by it.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah, it's a really difficult thing to be able to predict. And I think at the moment, there's still so much uncertainty especially around are we going to get a second, we just don't know. It feels inevitable, but I'm hopeful that we don't.

Carly Straughan:

Yeah. It sort of seems weird, doesn't it? Because I'm generally quite a positive person, but I'm also pretty practical about it and think, "Oh, I just don't..." It's not going anywhere when it's not over and I think we have to be really careful to not sort of think, "Yes, that's looking more positive. Oh, it's going to be fine." I think which at the moment, we're just pushing that down the track and we'll trip over at some point.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah. It would be really interesting to talk to you again in another six months from now to see what is different. I'd actually really like that. I'm going to invite you back on.

Carly Straughan:

Excellent. Yeah.

Kelly Molson:

Because I'd like to-

Carly Straughan:

I'll get the tequila out.

Kelly Molson:

No. Carly and I had a discussion off-air about alcohol smells that have a very nasty effect on you and tequila is not a smell for me. We won't be discussing tequila again.

Carly Straughan:

You'll be fine though because if we're not in the same room, we'll be fine.

Kelly Molson:

You can have a tequila there and I'll have maybe a Sambuca.

Carly Straughan:

Yeah.

Kelly Molson:

Oh, Carly.

Carly Straughan:

Sounds delightful.

Kelly Molson:

It does, doesn't it? Zoom cocktails.

Carly Straughan:

Yeah, definitely.

Kelly Molson:

I'd like to end the podcast by asking you for a book recommendation. Maybe a book that has kind of helped shape your career in some way or just a book that you absolutely love that you'd recommend to our listeners to read.

Carly Straughan:

I'm sitting in a room at the moment with more books than any human being should really own. I say, my degree is in performing arts and literature. I am a book hoarder. When you said, "Can you choose one?" I sort of went, "Well, not really." I'd also say I'm not really a theoretical book... Or not in the industry. I tend to learn by doing. I like practical experience and I like more storytelling type of stuff. But I will say that the book that she has totally and utterly shaped my life and I quote more than anything else in the whole world is Freakonomics.

Carly Straughan:

And if you haven't read Freakonomics, go and read it. It's just really about statistics. I like real numbers. I'm not really into sort of abstract maths and I like proof. Again, that thing about having unpopular opinions is that a lot of people will, especially in our industry, because I think so many people are into that experience is that they'll give you anecdotes as fast. And we're pretty bad actually at making decisions when we don't have the facts in front of us. And Freakonomics is really about not making assumptions and looking at cause and effect and seeing where links are between data that you probably actually wouldn't normally make links between. There's a lot in it around just different things like why people with different names are less successful.

Carly Straughan:

Which is totally off the wall and doesn't really make much sense. But then, actually, as someone who works in HR and used to recruit thousands of people at a time, actually is it going... How many times have you looked at someone's CV and made a really quick judgment based on their email address?

Kelly Molson:

Yeah. Unconscious bias. Yeah.

Carly Straughan:

Yeah. Totally. And actually, there's a lot of discussion in it about just because it's factually correct, doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. And about really sort of taking the data and then making moral judgments with it. I just found it really, really fascinating. I've always really liked statistics and I've always really been into kind of deep maths but it has to be based in sort of real-life for me. It's a great book. It's a really good book.

Kelly Molson:

It's a really good book recommendation.

Carly Straughan:

Yeah. And again, thinking about unpopular opinions, which is where we started. It has some really unpopular opinions in there. But it will... Yeah. It makes you think.

Kelly Molson:

This is a book for me.

Kelly Molson:

If you'd like to win a copy of Carly's book, then if you head over to our Twitter account, which is Skip the Queue, or skip_the_queue and you retweet this episode announcement with the comment, "I want Carly's book," then you will be in with a chance of winning it.

Kelly Molson:

Carly, I've absolutely loved talking to you today. I think that you've shared some really, really valuable insight and I love the story of how you've come to do what you do now. We're going to put all of Carly's details in the show notes. You'll find a link to her LinkedIn profile, a link to her website. I might link her to Twitter if she allows me to link her on Twitter.

Carly Straughan:

If you want to have some really unpopular opinions, please come and join me on Twitter. It's mainly cat pictures or llamas or tourist attractions. Angry about things.

Kelly Molson:

It's a place for me.

Carly Straughan:

Yeah, definitely.

Kelly Molson:

Thanks so much for coming on today, Carly. It's been a pleasure.

Carly Straughan:

It has been really fun. Thanks.

Kelly Molson:

Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five-star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned. Skip the Queue is brought to you by

Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website, rubbercheese.com/podcast.

Download The Visitor Attractions Website Survey Report - https://www.merac.co.uk/download-the-visitor-attractions-survey

We have launched our brand-new playbook: ‘The Retail Ready Guide to Going Beyond the Gift Shop’ — your go-to resource for building a successful e-commerce strategy that connects with your audience and drives sustainable growth.

Download your FREE copy here

Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is  Kelly Molson, MD of Rubber Cheese.

Download our free ebook The Ultimate Guide to Doubling Your Visitor Numbers

If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website rubbercheese.com/podcast
If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this episode.

Competition ends October 31st 2020. The winner will be contacted via Twitter.

Show references:

https://www.harbourpark.com/

https://www.instagram.com/harbourparkuk/

https://www.facebook.com/harbourparkuk

https://www.linkedin.com/in/wes-smart-6b1b4052/

Transcription:

Kelly Molson:

Welcome to Skip The Queue, a podcast for people working in or working with visitor attractions. I'm your host, Kelly Molson. Each episode, I speak with industry experts from the attractions world. 

In today's episode, I speak with Wes Smart, Managing Director of Harbor Park, the Children's Beach Adventure. We discuss operating within the current restrictions, the importance of communicating with their team, and their big plans for the future. If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching, Skip The Queue.

Kelly Molson:

Wes, it's really great to have you on the podcast today, so thank you so much for being on.

Wes Smart:

Pleasure.

Kelly Molson:

I always like to start the interview with a few icebreaker questions and you don't get to prepare anything for these questions, but it's just to get to know the real you because we haven't actually spoken before, have we? This is the first interaction that we've had. So do you prefer cats or dogs?

Wes Smart:

Dogs.

Kelly Molson:

Any reasoning behind that? It is the correct answer obviously.

Wes Smart:

Grew up more around dogs. I don't have one currently. So it was more growing up and more familiarity. I'm not against cats.

Kelly Molson:

I'm not against cats, Wes, but they're just not that pleasant all the time are they? Not really. I'm going to alienate a huge part of my audience.

Wes Smart:

You will. And I'm going to help you by saying, I look at it, as a cat is a squatter.

Kelly Molson:

Wow. Okay. Yeah, I think you're probably right there. If you don't have a dog, I have two, and I'm always willing to get rid of at least one of mine at any one time.

Wes Smart:

I would have to check with the wife.

Kelly Molson:

Okay. So what would be top of your bucket list? What's top of the list for you?

Wes Smart:

My wife does know how to dive and I've not gotten open water or anything like that. So some experience inside of diving might be something I'd put out there as on the bucket list.

Kelly Molson:

Oh yeah. Have you done snorkeling before, so you've had that first step?

Wes Smart:

Snorkeling, I've even used an air tank in the swimming pool and things like that, but I've not the open water and I've never been on a reef dive. And so, I'd like to do that before I kick the bucket.

Kelly Molson:

Where would you choose to go and do that?

Wes Smart:

Belize.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah. Very nice. I've not been there.

Wes Smart:

My wife's done the barrier reef, so I'd rather go somewhere where she's not being before and do and learn out there and I've been to Belize and it's fantastic, but I never went diving there. I know it's meant to be excellent.

Kelly Molson:

Good answer. Okay. This is the last ice breaker question and I think it's the toughest one. So I want you to tell me something that you believe to be true, but hardly anyone else agrees with you on, so it's basically your unpopular opinion.

Wes Smart:

Eggs belong in burgers.

Kelly Molson:

Eggs belong in burgers.

Wes Smart:

Runny yolk belongs in a burger.

Kelly Molson:

Do you know what? I don't think that I've ever had an egg in a burger. I'm trying to think. I'm totally with you on a runny egg in a bacon sarnie, delicious.

Wes Smart:

So add a burger into the bacon sarnie and you've got a bacon egg cheeseburger.

Kelly Molson:

With cheese as well though?

Wes Smart:

With cheese, yeah, go big or go home.

Kelly Molson:

That's my life motto, Wes. Brilliant. Well, that's a great start to the podcast Wes, thank you for answering my ridiculous questions. I'd love to know a little bit about your background and have you always been involved in the attractions world or is this something that's quite new?

Wes Smart:

No, I'm fourth generation entertainment. The big man behind me is my great grandfather.

Kelly Molson:

Oh, wow. He's fabulous. Look at that. Look at that photo.

Wes Smart:

He's Billy Smart, he was a circus impresario in the UK. Billy Smart Circus toured after the 2nd World War, maybe the 50s, 60s times, and all that. So that's the family history, it was circus and entertainment. So amusement parks and fairground equipment and it's not such a far-flung attitude. So historically my family has been in entertainment, I have done other things. So I went off, I'm veteran, so I was in the military for a while and then I've come back into the business. So yes, summers from university were spent as an attraction attendant, and ice cream puller, and a program seller when the circus was still out and about as a young teen, popcorn making. So I've done the whole kit and caboodle at the entry-level and everything like that. And then I went off and I did other things with the military, and then I came back in and started back in as the Rides Manager and then promoted up through to operations and now I'm Managing Director.

Kelly Molson:

I love that you have worked at every level of that, of the business. That must give you such an insight into what it's like for your team, the visitors.

Wes Smart:

It's really helpful trying to deliver a consistent experience for the guest through managing training regimes, and that coaching technique that you use with younger managers who are coming through. And you are able to see the mistakes before they come and go and talk it through so they can see it coming. I think that experience helps. I like hearing about the guys who used to run Disney back in the day, who started on Main Street and you got a lot of American parks, a huge amount of parks out there, who we speak to, whose people have come up through and know the intricacies. And even Universal's guy walks through the park every Saturday, make notes and everything like that because he did the experience. It's not essential, don't get me wrong, it's not essential, but there's certainly a value to having been at the entry-level and then at the mid-management level, with dealing with your staff and having sympathies for some of the pressures that come and the amount of left-field stuff, that's just how it goes.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah. I love that. It's interesting, one of the guests on the podcast for this season is Lee Cockerell, who was the ex VP of operations at Disney World. And he does talk front and center all the time, so being available to his team, so making sure that he was visible, and I think it's very similar. He didn't work all the way up like you have, but still that visibility and making sure that he understood everything that was going on at the park at any one time, is ultimately what's important about building trust and making people know that you are someone that they can come to for leadership and support.

Wes Smart:

I think the size of operation, the size of the park that I run allows me to have a bit more granular knowledge of roles, but it's not essential, in a larger organization and that, you can't know everybody's job and that's then about building teams and building trust and delivering expectations. And we talk about end states and so the people, "This is what I want to be. The route is your choice, but this is where I want to be." So that actually it allows for creativity inside of the train tracks and a bit of freedom and ownership of tasks. That's the stuff we talk about now is like, "Yeah, okay, I want to be there." And in this time now, that's proving to be far more successful in saying, "This is where I want to be. Let's come up with ideas." I don't mind being about a sounding board. I don't mind coming up with how I would do it, but change it. Take it, own it.

Kelly Molson:

I love that.

Wes Smart:

Plan your work and then work the plan.

Kelly Molson:

So plan your work, work the plan.

Wes Smart:

Plan your work then work the plan.

Kelly Molson:

That is great. I love that. Okay. That's a good quote for you's. That'll be all across our social media Wes. Tell us a little bit about the park and what the attraction is like because you've got outdoor activities and indoor activities. So you've got some quite big challenges at the moment with what's happening, but tell us a little bit about the park and what's there.

Wes Smart:

Okay. So by amusement park standards were very small, relatively, we're probably about 16 to 20 attractions, depending on what you count as an attraction or a ride. Mainly mechanical or electro-mechanical rides. We focus on an age group of two to 12-year-olds, particularly, and anyone with responsibility for a two to 12-year-old. We are a seaside location, so we're highly seasonal. We have an indoor element as well as in an outdoor element, we face both a river and the sea. So we only can attract from a 180-degree catchment area. So there's some real challenges. The indoor elements at the moment are soft play, which I'm sure we'll come to later.

Wes Smart:

The arcades, arcades are arcades, coin-operated and there's some interesting developments in that sphere about where things might go in the future. And then rides and food and beverage. Our top-selling food and beverage item is fish and chips, unsurprisingly, ice cream is our top-selling snack amongst them. That's how it works. It's a tight team, but the challenges of seasonality are something that we have to manage, and that's going to be very acute given the current situation.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah. Absolutely, we will come to that actually later on in the podcast. But how has lockdown been for you? It's a difficult question. It's a difficult question to ask because it's been so challenging for so many people, but I want to find out, what it was like for you when you heard the news that everything was going to have to close. And then what things have you done while you've been closed to engage with the audience that you already have? I'm sure you've got loyal people that come back time and time again.

Wes Smart:

So the close down, we could see the effects happening already, literally across the two week period, what we would expect dropped off a cliff. So we already were looking commercially at what do we do? And we started to get soundings from our trade association, Belper, the announcements were coming. So we had to make a decision to start to prepare for that in quite a serious way. So when the announcement on the Friday was made, we closed to the public immediately. But we then had to go through a process that we never done at the park before, which was to winterize ourselves with all ride... We pushed our inspection regime for the rides so that we were all inspected, built, and ready to go with the rides. We then had to go through what we called mothballing. And we hadn't done it before we pulled out the manuals for rides.

Wes Smart:

We got all the arcade equipment empty because we then worried about vandalism. We worried about break-ins, we worried about insurance, we worried about water. We went through a whole list and then had to record the list because we knew we wanted to turn it back on and didn't want to forget anything. So the organization and making that happen over a two day period was a challenge. But with a mind to recovery even at that early stage, it was the ability to say, "We're going to turn all this back on to make checklists." Because I'm acutely aware there's no point in relying on one person, you have to make lists and then publish those lists to everyone, so that people could move back in. What if I wasn't there? What if I'm sat in ICU? What if management and a lot of the management team are, it was reliant on a lot of people. And that was made quite aware to our staff and essential briefing that, at that time there was significant fear about it.

Wes Smart:

But the fact was we said very clearly that we were aiming to survive, and we set a date for survival at that time to being Easter 2021. Right-back in March 2020. That's what we said. That is the timescale we are setting over survival.

Kelly Molson:

Wow.

Wes Smart:

Right at the outset, no one at that time knew how long it was going to last. No one at that time knew and we still don't whether you're going to end up with second waves, even third waves, historic data would suggest we might. And those are the kind of things that we had to do to react to lockdown. Everyone reacted really well. Furlough was an experience that was hard. The staff were very good about it. We did communications you asked about, and the main audience we focused on was our staff, if I'm honest.

Kelly Molson:

Okay.

Wes Smart:

Our external communications was very much were closed. And as per government instructions, we're staying close, we do have an annual pass scheme. So there was a lot of discussions before we closed up shop about what we're going to do for those, and that during I was on furlough for three weeks. And then we brought myself back and everything like that. So it was literally only the finances who were running the payroll, who we kept on for the first three weeks. After that, we brought myself and a couple back. That low-level knowledge was good because I was able to do a lot of the checks for insurance and that myself but after that... There was a lot more hands-on in the early part. And then later on we started to drop in people coming back, slowly, outlets that faced out that we could use as takeaway and convert those quickly. We did that.

Kelly Molson:

That's great. So you really adapt quite quickly then and open elements of what you were doing.

Wes Smart:

Yeah, certainly the catering side of things, we adapted things to be taken away reasonably quickly when we were allowed to. We have to go through the whole COVID secure risk assessment. That was quite the effort as it was for everyone. Everyone took different approaches. There's a lot of conflicting opinions. There were only so many Zoom calls that would eventually go on, I had to limit and focus on the ones that I found most helpful. And actually, it came to making decisions. At some point, you got to stop the talking and you've actually got to make a decision. And then evaluate that decision when it hits the ground and the public gets to have them have their opinion upon it. It was what we call an OODA loop that stands for something, but it's OODA observe, orient, decide, act, and the tighter you can make that loop the faster you will affect the situation.

Wes Smart:

They used to teach it to fighter pilots about the faster you do that, if your circle is smaller than the other person's, you're now affecting them. So you take that decision cycle in this, and sometimes an 80% plan now is better than 100% plan too late.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah, supposed to be.

Wes Smart:

That was the attitude we took. We started with gloves and napkins and that, and the public liked it. Two weeks later the public didn't like it. So we had to remove those and went to the... We were sanitizing over the top of gloves. Now we're sanitizing hands that are bare, we're food handling, it's learning and reacting all the time.

Kelly Molson:

It's very difficult, isn't it? We've had to in our own sector, which is very, very different in digital. People's needs and requirements are changing so rapidly that you've got to evaluate constantly. So like you say, a solution that worked a couple of weeks ago now isn't right for your audience. So now you have to change and adapt. And actually, that in itself is it's quite exhausting, but it's testament to the speed and the ability of the team that you have there to be able to continuously do that so quickly and evaluate. Now you're open, we talked a little bit earlier about the kind of activities that you have on-site. You've got outdoor activities and indoor activities. So what restrictions are in place at the moment? The indoor is soft play. So unfortunately that stays closed for the foreseeable. What other challenges do you have in terms of the restrictions at the moment?

Wes Smart:

And to be honest with you with the fine weather we've been managing on a capacity level that has worked for us. The number one thing that affects us still as has been before COVID and will be after COVID, will be the weather.

Kelly Molson:

Yes.

Wes Smart:

It is the number one thing that affects us. While we've been dry every day, the management and the techniques have been probably 95% of what we planned has worked. The one time that we did have rain and people from the park tried to come into the buildings. That was a challenge because we have rated the building for a certain occupancy level, as well as the outdoor area. And so while the weather is dry, that's easily managed then what we found. The problem comes when people want to come inside all at once, and that's usually in a rain shower.

Kelly Molson:

Right.

Wes Smart:

So we put our umbrellas up even on rainy days that we have for the seating. We try to not put the seating underneath so that you can fit more. So just to try to prevent a run for cover if we get a rain shower, that's probably been the number one big challenge. And we've got different systems we tried for it. And like you say we're learning a lot with those, but we haven't reached capacity in the building even when we had the one rain shower. But it certainly taught us a lot about how we thought it would work and how it actually works. And like you say, that's the evaluation that has to happen. I know other parks have got similar problems where they let their whole park is worked out for capacity and they let the people in, but everyone wants to go to one land.

Kelly Molson:

Right.

Wes Smart:

Everyone wants to go to the one IP linked land first. So they're having to manage... Although their park is at perfect capacity, no problems at all. The problem is that people want to go to one place at one time. And that's a different challenge. I know that other parts have had as well.

Kelly Molson:

So is that something that you don't struggle with that so people don't tend to congregate in one, and they don't go towards one ride specifically initially.

Wes Smart:

The only challenge we get with that is weather-related. But now that we know... You can predict that with a certain degree, 24 hours out you're looking for... You can prep your team in the morning. We now keep to one side the shower reaction kit, it consists of a few fences and some signage, but it's trying to manage flow.

Kelly Molson:

I hadn't even considered... Obviously, I know that you have mixed spaces in doing outdoor. And I hadn't even considered the challenges of the weather being the biggest challenge. Because in a normal circumstance people would go, "Oh, well, it's raining. Oh, well, let's go to soft play then we'll get everybody inside." And that's the challenge. And would your soft play areas usually be open in the winter months as well? So you would get maybe more visitors into those areas than the outdoors at that point.

Wes Smart:

Yes. And the planning element has moved on from opening now to winter, soft play was the cool birds for... We closed down the rides. We do our maintenance inspections across the winter. We do all our refurbs and everything like that. So that's planned to continue the only disruptors we'll there would be local lockdowns, second spikes, however, you want to phrase it. But that's the thing that we would look at for that insight. At the moment, we are without the attraction that is the cool bird and the driver for children's parties. And so winter is a challenge. We've got a few ideas and we've been musing through those in the last week or two and we'll adapt. It's as simple as that.

Kelly Molson:

Adapt is the word of the year without a doubt. That brings me to one of the questions actually about the COVID situation. And we've spoken to some people that have said, "Oh, well, we'd been thinking about doing this thing for a couple of years. And actually, the situation has meant we've had to force it upon us. We've had to think more quickly and more rapidly and actually bring that solution forward." Are you in that position where you've been thinking about some stuff for a while and now actually they're at the top of the list? They're things that you have to do because of the change in restrictions and what you can, and can't, open with.

Wes Smart:

Yes, we did. But those decisions have already been made, for example, menu size in the two sit down restaurant catering outlets. I slashed the menu down to five or six items. We have a lot more than that. We've always been trying to trim the menu down each time we got the concept and that, but this just made us... It was an early decision. Like I said, the OODA loop was simple. We wanted to do this for ages. This is the time to make it happen. It made sense for not needing to recruit anymore. It made ease of training if you had to a cook or a chef go down, the training was simple. If you reduced the menu, stock ordering became simpler as long as you could... The amount of suppliers that you could, the range of suppliers you could go to for that short menu.

Wes Smart:

So we made that decision in April before we were allowed to open. That was simple and then that decision led on to, "What do we need to do? We need to change the digital menus. We're not going to pay for signage and that, let's download PicMonkey and let's see what we can do. Okay, great. We can print A3 brilliant let's laminate it and let's stick that up and instead. Okay. That looks a bit shoddy. Let's redo that on a chalkboard format, still printed, but that looks much better. Bang, up it goes." But the decision being made early. You use breathing space to make what the solution was looked less temporary.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah.

Wes Smart:

And it gives your customer confidence with that professionalism that you would expect from coming to an establishment. And that I felt was important. Because customer confidence was something that you couldn't control. All you could do was get your elements to look like you had thought about this properly as they would expect, and convey that through the whole presentation. That's what we do is you have to present things in a way that gives people confidence. And that was one of the big battles, but that all stemmed from making decisions early. And the menu is the easiest one I can use as an example of saying, "We're slashing it. We're going to Gordon Ramsay it." Just come in and throw the toys out the pram and just go, "Yeah, your menu's too big." Of course, you're not a chef back in the day to know that a slimmer menu is a more efficient menu.

Kelly Molson:

We've ramped up the menu. I love this. So and what about future plans? So you mentioned there are a few things that you're thinking of in terms of the winter months now, is there anything that you're happy to share with us, about things that you're thinking about that. Because I can see what a big challenge that's going to be in terms of you said it's a big driver for birthday parties. So essentially, that's something that you could lose for the rest of the year. What kind of things are you thinking of in terms of new developments?

Wes Smart:

The starting point was what in winter are we going to going open. So we usually run what I call the main building, that will stay open. The arcade inside there it's been socially distanced and we've done that already and that's working, so that will stay. So we have an element of things that we can keep open. The soft play takes up a big space. And at the moment there's no clue as to when that might open. So it's about using the seating space and converting that. Soft play is roped off it's closed, we've cable tied everything shut it's done. But as we come into winter, we need to look at the birthday party room. Can we repurpose it in some way? Is there a form of arcade attraction that we can put in there?

Wes Smart:

Is there something that we can use that... We'll be very interested as the guidance towards schools starts to come out and seeing how schools are going to operate. Because if they're operating in class bubbles, that will give us a much closer clue as to what is permissible and what is acceptable to our audience, and legislatively as well. I care more about the audience, to be honest with you, legislation we just have to comply with it. It is, it's black and white and the gray areas around it. You make decisions and you adjust. So there's no specifics at the moment because I've got things going out to different people and there might be five ideas out there. And one may only be the one that is economically feasible even, but we're going through that now so that we can aim that come September we've got a decision and we can try to implement in September, ready for the October, by December, January, February, it's a five-month pool to get around.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah. Yeah. It's a long period. It's great that you've got ideas about how you can use your space. And what I've really liked is that throughout this interview you've been really pushing that message that it is about your audience. It's really about like... I've heard this phrase quite a lot, sanitize the venue but not the experience. Yeah. Okay. There are these restrictions in place and there's the sanitization in place, but it's not diluting that experience they gain. And it's been really nice to hear you say that all the way through. We're coming to the end of the podcast and what I'd really like to know. There's a couple of questions that I'd still like to ask, but I'd really like to end on a positive. And actually, this is not just for the park, but maybe for yourself as well. Is there anything that has been a positive aspect of lockdown for you?

Wes Smart:

Yes. Okay. There are a few different ones that I'll pick up on. For the business, I would say our team's reaction to coming back, although nervous was excellent. And I take a bit of pride in the fact that our people have come back and risen to challenges in the correct way, where they felt that there was holes and you can't cover everything and that. They brought concerns up in the right way. We've adapted. We've used them, consulted with them about what would... And their attitude hasn't been just not doing it. It's, "What if we do it this way? What if we try to do that?" And that's been really pleasing to see that buy-in. But I think that came from us focusing on staff as our communications lead early on, and yet the guests got told we're closed.

Wes Smart:

We made a decision on annual passes and fed that out once we knew we'd be given a reopening date. So we stayed quiet to our guests. We weren't a zoo. We didn't put out educational packs and all that. All very good if I ran a zoo, I'd 100% do that. But we focused on our staff and I think that gave us our reopening with our staff. I take pride in how they've reacted to it all and that's been pleasing to see.

Kelly Molson:

That's lovely.

Wes Smart:

Personally, seeing my wife homeschool and how she threw herself into that was excellent. I was lucky I was able to help for the short time that I was at home and that. That was pleasing to see, not that it was easy by any stretch of the imagination.

Kelly Molson:

I am sure.

Wes Smart:

But no, and the way my kids reacted to that was really interesting. So we learned a lot more of us as a family unit. So there was a lot of learning about each other done there, which ordinarily you wouldn't get particularly in summer for myself, where it's our busiest time.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah. Yeah. You wouldn't have been around.

Wes Smart:

No. And that was from a personal point of view, that was really, really good to see. There's a lot of growth in knowledge, not a lot of growth in the business.

Kelly Molson:

Well, that's to come though, that's to come though, Wes. We love to end the podcast by asking if you have a book that you could recommend. So maybe something that has helped to shape your career, or just a book that you've just taken a lot from, and we offer that book as a prize for our listeners.

Wes Smart:

Okay. Winnie the Pooh by A. A. Milne.

Kelly Molson:

It's a great book.

Wes Smart:

It's fantastic.

Kelly Molson:

Why have you chosen that book? It's a beautiful book.

Wes Smart:

Winnie the Pooh is my childhood hero, one, but as an adult, when you reread it's hard to read actually when you go back to it. It's written from the aspect of a child, obviously, I'm in Sussex. It was written by A. Milne in Sussex. So there's a local link as well. But as a veteran, it says things about depression that are fantastic. Not that I don't suffer from PTSD and that, but I have many friends and colleagues, ex-colleagues who do and that. And what it says simply about that from the attitude of a child is fantastic, in simple terms. It reminds you of what's important. It takes you back. Our audiences are children. If you want to look at it from a business point of view and the wonderment in simple things, and you don't have to... I've always said about digital, how important it is to certain aspects, but we're an analog park.

Wes Smart:

And as digital becomes the main of what people do day to day, analog is going to be more important for experience. And it's not a surprise to me that adventure activities are growing. It does not surprise me that the experience economy is a growth area, that bars are turning into the prison themes and these kinds of things. Because the more digital you have, the more experience in analog and shared experience particularly become important. And for a child, a walk in the woods is an experience it's something that's different. And Winnie the Pooh brings you back. It grounds you, it makes decision making... It takes the pressure off. It's a relief. So I'm not going to say a self-help book or an inspiring biography from someone. I've got inspiring people in front of me. Some of them are 16, 17, 18 years old, and they're in their first job.

Wes Smart:

I don't need that. I can see that where they work hard and they're learning something. So I need something to make the thought process simpler and the decision making less grand in my own head. And Winnie the Pooh does that for me.

Kelly Molson:

Wes, what a lovely, lovely, end to our podcast interview, and what a wonderful book to recommend. If you'd like to win a copy of this book, then head over to our Twitter account, which is Skip The Queue. And if you retweet this episode announcement with the comment, "I want Wes' his book." And then you will be in with a chance of winning it.

Kelly Molson:

Wes thank you. It has been an absolute delight to speak to you today. I wish you all of the very best with the upcoming months that you've got ahead of you but thank you.

Wes Smart:

No problems. Thanks for having me.

Kelly Molson:

Thanks for listening to Skip The Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five-star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned. Skip The Queue is brought to you by 

Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website, rubbercheese.com/podcast.

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Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is  Kelly Molson, MD of Rubber Cheese.

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If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website rubbercheese.com/podcast
If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this episode.

Competition ends October 31st 2020. The winner will be contacted via Twitter.

Show references:

www.nationalparks.uk

Transcription:

Kelly Molson:

Welcome to Skip the Queue, a podcast for people working in or working with visitor attractions. I'm your host Kelly Molson. Each episode, I speak with industry experts from the attractions world.

In today's episode, I speak with Alastair Barber, Marketing and Communications Manager at National Parks. We discuss how the parks have communicated with their audience during the lockdown. How a focus on being outside will encourage new visitors? And the future of tourist attractions in the UK. If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue.

Kelly Molson:

Alastair, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. It's lovely to have you here.

Alastair Barber:

It's a pleasure to be here.

Kelly Molson:

So we know each other already. Rubber Cheese are working with National Parks at the moment on a really exciting project. Maybe we'll talk about that a bit later. So Alastair and I do know each other, but I'm still going to ask him the icebreaker questions because he doesn't get away that lightly. So we've got icebreaker questions just to try and find out a little bit about the real Alastair. Are you ready?

Alastair Barber:

Yeah. I'd forgotten about this bit.

Kelly Molson:

Well, you don't get to prepare anything.

Alastair Barber:

No, exactly.

Kelly Molson:

Right. Okay. On a scale of 1 to 10, how good a driver are you?

Alastair Barber:

Oh, see, this is something that men always overestimate, isn't it?

Kelly Molson:

Yes.

Alastair Barber:

I'm all right. I'm going to say 7. How boring, the standard answer.

Kelly Molson:

It's very average answer there. I would have expected higher actually being a camper van owner. I was thinking you were going to go, "Oh, I'm 10. I'm in my van all the time. I'm proficient."

Alastair Barber:

I would have been. But for the fact that the last time I drove it, I crushed.

Kelly Molson:

If you could travel back in time, what period would you go to?

Alastair Barber:

Oh, I'd like to go all the way back. If I could choose a place as well, I'd like to be a patrician in ancient Rome. I think that sounds like the life to me.

Kelly Molson:

Oh, yeah. It does.

Alastair Barber:

A bit of business in the morning and then bath in the afternoon.

Kelly Molson:

Being fed some grapes.

Alastair Barber:

What more do you want?

Kelly Molson:

It sounds delightful, doesn't it? Yeah, I definitely need to rethink mine. Because I was thinking, "Oh, I'd go back to Jurassic and see the dinosaurs," but then risk of being eaten or a lovely bath in the afternoon. I've got this all wrong, haven't I?

Alastair Barber:

I think with my stomach and I think it would have been good eating from back then.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah. Good answer. Tell me something that you're not very good at.

Alastair Barber:

Oh, decorating. I get very bored very quickly and very sloppy. I'm bad at that.

Kelly Molson:

Okay. Your house looks quite nice behind you though. So this is obviously a room that you've taken some care over.

Alastair Barber:

No, no, no. I paid somebody else to do it.

Kelly Molson:

Thank you for indulging me in my silly icebreaker questions. So tell me a little bit about your background and how you came to be at National Parks.

Alastair Barber:

Okay. Well, I started off in... I'm not from this world. I'm not from tourism or nature conservancy or anything like that. I started off my career in communications. So I did the tour of all the agencies. So I worked for a PR agency, an advertising agency, internal comms, branding, done all that. And then lately, I ran my own business for 15 years as a consultant. Kind of troubleshooting, so I go and solve business problems using communications. And that was great. But as a gun for hire, you kind of haven't got much choice about who you're working for.

Alastair Barber:

And I started thinking, "Well, what do I want to do with all of this experience and stuff?" And I thought about the projects I liked best, the ones I enjoyed working on. I used to work public and private sector. So all sorts of different organizations. And the projects I really liked... I did some projects with the NHS, with nurses and that's really good. Helping them think about how they care for patients better and putting the power in their hands about how they sort of design patient care and looked after safety. And then, I did another project for Network Rail, where I was helping them think about how to reduce suicide on the rail network. And then, projects that stuck with me. And I thought, "Well, what is it that's in common?" And they were projects with a social purpose.

Alastair Barber:

So I started looking around for a home. I'd always sort of been sort of freewheeling and I thought, "Well, I want to cause I want to put my shoulder too." And I thought it's either going to be environmental because I see the environmental challenge as being the challenge of our age; it is the main challenge to the human race at the moment, or something to do with mental health. And came across this role at National Parks and it just ticked all the boxes. And it took me back. It made me nostalgic as well because I spent a lot of my childhood at the Lake District. My dad would drag us up mountains and some really fond and intense memories. So it felt like the universe was giving me a message.

Kelly Molson:

Oh, that's lovely. I totally hear you on the Lake District as well. It's one of those really special places that just evokes the most incredible memories, isn't it?

Alastair Barber:

Yeah.

Kelly Molson:

It is a really beautiful, beautiful place.

Alastair Barber:

Well, my mom always says... She wasn't around for my childhood, but she said even for her, my childhood... She thinks of me in the Lake District because we've got all of the family albums whenever I go back. When there're stories that me and my sisters tell about childhood, it often goes back to that. But one thinks of... You think of the National Parks and people tend to think about the Lake District, the Peak District, the more obvious ones. But I started thinking about how different parts of my life had been crisscrossed by different National Parks. And I started going down the list and I thought, "Well, I've enjoyed most of them." Sometimes without even knowing I was in a National Park.

Alastair Barber:

That kind of brings us around to what this role is, which is National Parks are wonderful organizations, but they call themselves a family of 15 and they're all sort of autonomous individual organizations. But this role is about kind of putting a wrapper on that and helping people understand the value that they deliver for the country, for the UK. And it's an untold story and I think it's important that people do understand the value that they deliver because everybody pays for them.

Kelly Molson:

Absolutely. And that actually brings me on to what I want to talk about for today. So I want to go back a little bit to March, which seems like a really long time ago with everything that's happened, but let's go back to March and to kind of just pre lockdown, just before lockdown. The public's reaction to being outside was really pretty intense. And there was lots of press about people flooding to National Parks days before lockdown. A huge amount of people, an influx of people. And I think you can kind of... People often say, all press is good press, but attention was really on the parks at that point, wasn't it?

Kelly Molson:

I guess it's been difficult since then because I'd like to kind of ask you how you've approached marketing the parks during the lockdown and communicating with your audience? But also asking them to stay away, which is not what we're usually telling people about parks. You're normally trying to encourage them instead... How did you feel about that, and how have you been able to approach it?

Alastair Barber:

Going back to basics. It's good. It's made me examine what the fundamentals of the role are. And I think the bulk of it, the idea of marketing... It's about communication rather than marketing, I think. The staying away... So parks are about... They've got this dual purpose, they've got statutory purposes, and they balance looking after these special environments whilst also allowing people to have access to them and benefit from them. And so, the communication during lockdown was about how people can still access nature connectedness. So when lockdown was hard, when people had to stay in the house basically, or could only go outside for a very limited period of time and not travel to parks, the communication was about how you could still have nature connectedness because it's like a silver bullet for modern life.

Alastair Barber:

It helps with physical and mental wellbeing. It helps de-stress and it's what everybody could benefit from whilst going through this really strange and scary time. So it was about helping people do that. And then, as lockdown as eased, it's about how people can access nature in general and the parks specifically in a safe way. So putting the power in people's hands to understand how they can access in a way that helps them keep themselves safe, but also respects the need for fellow visitors. But also, UK parks are kind of unique in the world in that people live there. They're the shop floor and the homes of lots of people. So how people visiting parks can do so in a way that allows the people who live there to feel safe as well. So it's about how to still get the most from parks but do so in a way that's considerate about your own safety and the feelings of safety of other people.

Kelly Molson:

And we spoke quite a lot during that period around what you could do. I mean, you couldn't travel, so you couldn't go to parks. You couldn't really go much further than on your doorstep really. We talked quite a lot about what you could do, even if you were lucky enough to have a garden, an outside space. Just being more outside and being more connected to nature in that sense, that's a good thing. That's one tiny step forward that you could take. That was something that has really stuck with me. And I think that's something that's really stuck with the team as well throughout lockdown, is that feeling of being more connected to nature, be more connected to the outside because we were allowed that hour to go out. And so that hour became very precious.

Alastair Barber:

Yeah.

Kelly Molson:

And it was either in your garden or it was discovering a new walk or discovering something... A new place that you hadn't been in your local area. It definitely helped with our mindset and our mental health throughout that period.

Alastair Barber:

Yeah. I think this being more outside is, it's sucking the marrow out of the experience. It's really getting the most from it. I think about my mom who is recently widowed and then lockdown came and obviously, me and my sisters were really concerned about her feeling lonely and cooped up. But what we're talking to her about, she is lucky enough to have a garden and that was her solace, to walk around the garden and to notice things.

Alastair Barber:

And that's how you build that connection with nature. It's not necessarily about how long you're out there or even where you are, it's the level of connectedness. It's paying attention and noticing. So you might go out and run for an hour and a half, but if you've got your headphones in and all you're doing is looking at your Garmin watch and keeping the pace, you're kind of not really connecting with the environment that you're running through. Whereas 10 minutes going outside and sniffing the air, watching the birds, and picking up a bit of paper or something, caring for nature, you become more connected. And there's loads of emerging science now about the benefit of that connection. So physical and mental.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah. It's hugely important. It's funny, actually. That's something I was thinking about this morning is that whenever... So I have a couple of dogs and we walk them in the mornings, we walk them in the afternoon. And I'm a really... Litter really bothers me, really, really bothers me. And actually, throughout lockdown, I've actually been quite hesitant to pick the litter up because of the risk of... And it sounds really stupid, but the risk of you don't know who has had that before you. And I said to Lee this morning, I need to get gloves so that I can carry on doing that because it's really annoying me that I've stopped doing something that is really... It angers me that I see the litter in the park. So there's no reason for it. So you've reminded me, I need to get my gloves out so I can go back to doing the things that I'd normally do.

Alastair Barber:

Those habits that you can... Those little [inaudible 00:13:10] just to remind you, that's the sort of thing I do. It's good to have those. I pick up litter when I'm out, but if I remember to take a bag to put it in, it's better. Because it's horrible walking around with a plastic bottle full of cider in your hand, it kind of detracts from the walk. But I think those new habits... I think we're in a place now where we've broken old habits or we've been forced to break old habits and we're going to learn some new ones. And I think coming out of this, if we're talking about recovery, it's about helping people be conscious about the new habits that they've picked up and perhaps decide that there're ones that they want to keep so that when the opportunity to go back to how you were before is there, you don't kind of lose any of the good stuff that you've discovered during lockdown. Because I've not enjoyed locked down, it's been pretty difficult to bear, but there is stuff that I've done in it, that I think, "Well, I should carry that forward."

Kelly Molson:

Yeah, definitely. That's something that we need to be mindful of encouraging now that people are starting to go back to work and starting to go back. So let's talk about lockdown easing because we actually saw a really similar reaction. As soon as lockdown was eased, people again came out in masses because they wanted to be outside who can blame people, but people were flocking to outside spaces and quite overwhelmingly. There's a huge demand for outdoor attractions like Zoo's and Wildlife Parks when they were able to open.

Kelly Molson:

I wondered... Because you mentioned something earlier, actually that was interesting. About sometimes you wouldn't realize that you were in a National Park.

Alastair Barber:

Yeah.

Kelly Molson:

And some of that is related to the fact that they are free. And so, there is no... You don't have to book a ticket; you don't have to pay to go into the parks. And so the kind of boundaries blur a little bit between in them and outside of them. So I kind of wondered how is that going to be managed by the parks, the fact that they're free to attend and you don't need people to book, how do you manage that demand when there isn't that requirement to book in advance to visit them?

Alastair Barber:

Well, you can't manage the demand. So we can't. Like I said, there's no gate, there's no entrance fee. If people feel the need or the want to step over the boundary of the park they can. So I think it's about talking to people as adults, having an adult, adult communication, not wag a finger and not adult to child. And so, you must do this and you mustn't do that. But to say, "Well, please be aware of what the situation is on the ground." And I think mostly people are and people take responsibility for themselves. They kind of know that, but you have to help them. You might want to go back to a park that you've been to, that you've missed, and do what you used to do. That would be rock climbing or mountain biking, or whatever, but you kind of might not have appreciated what was there and supporting you to have that experience that might not be there going back now.

Alastair Barber:

So if all of the pubs are shut, you might think, "Oh, well I can't have a beer after me walk or after me ride." But that also means that there are fewer toilets. So you're more reliant on sort of public toilets or pay toilets, and there might be fewer of those because there're issues around being able to clean them and provide them safely. And parks don't necessarily own all of that infrastructure, they might be owned by partners or landowners or the local council. So it's about giving people the information, helping them think it through. So we tried to give people a four-step process to think through and kind of just cast their mind forward about what it might be like. Whereas previously, especially if you used to go into parks, you plan for what it used to be like before March. So it's just helping people think it through and do the right thing.

Kelly Molson:

Do the right thing. I like that. So do you think that the focus on outside being safer is going to encourage new visitors to the parks or maybe increased engagement from different audiences that haven't experienced the parks before?

Alastair Barber:

Yes, and yes. So I think what it's done for me is it's opened my eyes to some of the visitors who were accessing parks already, who perhaps I hadn't seen because I was trying to get my head around this obvious new behavior of kind of massive demand. But actually, it's helped me see some people and how they access it. So some of the younger generation are accessing parks now that perhaps I'd kind of assumed they weren't there. And it's great. Some of the stuff they're writing on Instagram is it's so wholesome. If we wrote it in our marketing or communications sort of stuff, it would come across as really cheesy. But it's lovely to see, and I hadn't seen these on Instagram. I think how they use Instagram; it's about helping show their lifestyle, helping show what they enjoy. And bringing these brilliant landscapes into their lifestyles as almost a background and talking about what it means to them in lockdown to be able to access this and what it means to their mental health and the experiences they're having. It's really great to see.

Alastair Barber:

I think also there's been people going out and walking with their family during lockdown. Especially, when we have that you could leave the house once. And I think people have enjoyed that. And I think that's when I talked about the habits that I want people to look back on saying, "Oh, I quite enjoyed going for a walk with my family." You communicate in a different way when you're walking, and you don't have to maintain eye contact. You've got that shared experience of being... And I think some people will have done some stuff that they enjoyed and they're quite surprised that they enjoyed it. So I quite like to help them take that to the next level and explore what it was that they enjoyed about that, and do it a bit more.

Alastair Barber:

And that's the great thing about parks, they're great places to push yourself a bit further because they are safe. You've got that environment of care. They're designed to allow people to access it the way that they want to access it. So you've got your own sort of comfort level with risk or adventure and getting out there. And the parks cater to all of those different levels and people I don't think necessarily know about. So I want to be able to speak to these people who have been doing things that they haven't done in the past and say, "Hey, do you want to do a bit more of that? These are great places to do a bit more of that and to do that next step."

Kelly Molson:

Yeah. I love that. I love what you said about... Because we've noticed that, a lot more families out walking together. Especially, during lockdown when we had that hour. One of our dogs is slightly reactive. So we were like, "Oh gosh, there's so many more people around that we've got to avoid," but it was a really nice thing to see. It wasn't just the same faces that you were seeing constantly. And what's really nice about walking is it seems to be a really good thing to do when you've got decisions to make. So Lee and I will always... If we've got a big decision to make or something that we need to talk about, we'll go for a really long walk with the dogs. And there's something about walking next to each other and being outside in the open that makes you just communicate a little bit more... How can I put it? There's just like a calmer level to what you're thinking through and what you're talking about. And the environment definitely plays such a huge part in that.

Alastair Barber:

I think it's a thing. I used to say to one of my old bosses, I used to say, "If I say, can we go for a walk? Just a warning, I've probably got something important to tell you." But there is something about either the pace of it, or the fact that you're in a different environment, or the fact that you don't have to maintain eye contact, it does something to the communication that changes that. I think you're right.

Alastair Barber:

So I think it's been great to see families going out, doing it. People who might not have walked together. And then, I think you've got to make it a conscious thing. You've got to notice that for yourself and perhaps talk about that to the people that you've been going for a walk with and say, "Hey, we seem to like that. We should do that a bit more often." And just saying it will make it more likely. It's something I do, it's a habit I've kind of cultivated. But if you don't make a conscious effort, it kind of goes away. It's a bit like exercise, but it's getting that balance of remembering. You want to do it because you've enjoyed it.

Kelly Molson:

And make a commitment to it then if it is something that you've enjoyed. You make that commitment to do it more often. Okay. So a couple of big questions to kind of end the interview on, but I'd like to know what's next? What the next few months looks like for you and for the organization? But also, what do you think the future of tourist attractions in the UK are? It's a big question and I guess most of us are, "Who knows?" right now.

Alastair Barber:

Yeah.

Kelly Molson:

But it'd be really interesting to get your thoughts on what you see for the next few months.

Alastair Barber:

Start with parks. I think we're in this sort of fuzzy phase at the moment between lockdown and normality. Whatever normality might end up being, that kind of stable state. Probably felt on some sort of vaccinations being identified. And I think for parks, it's about helping people do that thinking through, do the right thing, access safely. The communications help them do that. And like I said, about helping people identify and explore new habits within the boundaries of what is safe and acceptable, and everybody can manage.

Alastair Barber:

I think for tourist attractions, I think in the UK, I think it's obviously massively challenging for people on the short term, in terms of business models having to recover from this last four months. But I think that there seems to be an opportunity there. I think people will rethink how they use their time. I think people will be more inclined to think about using their spare time, using their holiday time, close to home and the near future. Either because of the uncertainty of travel or the lack of availability of it. So there's that opportunity of like, "Well, hey, discover this. You might find that there's something close to home that you really like." And I think it's helping people take those opportunities to do something new that's perhaps closer to home.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah. I think there'll be a huge boost. Well, I would hope that there'd be a huge boost in staycations this year.

Alastair Barber:

Yeah.

Kelly Molson:

Because of the uncertainty, which obviously will help the tourism trade. Okay. We end the podcast by asking you about a book that you could recommend that's helped shape your career in some way.

Alastair Barber:

Yeah. I've got a book called The Living Company. It's by a guy called Arie de Geus, and Arie used to work for Shell in their planning department. So he was part of the team with Pierre Wack that invented scenario planning. So he comes from a pretty hard-nosed environment and Shell is not necessarily associated with kind of tree hugging soft type.

Alastair Barber:

So I think The Living Company is interesting. It's a simple question that Arie asks, he says, "What if you think of organizations and businesses as living entities?" And you can think of it as a metaphor, but he almost takes it literally. He says that the organizations do share lots of attributes with what you would think of as something being alive. And why I like it, is it takes it away from the imperative of being the bottom line. He says if you think about an organization as a living entity and you nurture it from that perspective, then it's going to be healthy. It's going to be more long-lived and almost as a byproduct, it will create value. So it's not been driven by the bottom line. I guess it's one of the sides of that kind of purpose-driven thinking. It's now got a lot more sort of common currency. This book was written in '97, I think. So it's been around for a while. It's a really interesting... He writes beautifully. It's not very thick, it's easy to read.

Kelly Molson:

Not very thick. Okay.

Alastair Barber:

It's not very thick and it's in quite a big font. So you can rattle through it. It's really well written and it's very thought-provoking. And it changed how I think about organizations.

Kelly Molson:

Oh, I love that.

Alastair Barber:

In lots of things, complexity theory, the fallacy of planning, it's good stuff.

Kelly Molson:

What a brilliant testimonial for a book. Thank you for sharing that with us. I've never read it. I've never heard of that book but it definitely sounds like something I would love to pick up. If you would like to win a copy of Alistair's book, as ever, if you head over to our Twitter account, Skip the Queue, and retweet this episode announcement with the comment, "I want Ali's book," then you can be in with a chance of winning it. Alastair, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. It's been brilliant to talk to you.

Alastair Barber:

Lovely to chat to you, as ever, Kelly.

Kelly Molson:

Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five-star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned. Skip the Queue is brought to you by 

Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website, rubbercheese.com/podcast.

Download The Visitor Attractions Website Survey Report - https://www.merac.co.uk/download-the-visitor-attractions-survey

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Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is  Kelly Molson, MD of Rubber Cheese.

Download our free ebook The Ultimate Guide to Doubling Your Visitor Numbers

If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website rubbercheese.com/podcast
If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this episode.

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Show references:

blooloop.com

blooloop.com/blooloop-50-theme-park-nomination-2020/

blooloop.online-event.co/registration/blooloop-3

Transcriptions:

Kelly Molson:

Welcome to Skip the Queue, a podcast for people working in or working with visitor attractions. I'm your host, Kelly Molson. Each episode, I speak with industry experts from the attractions world.

In today's episode, I speak with Charlie Read, Managing Director of Blooloop, the world's leading online resource for professionals working in the visitor attraction sector. We discuss what attractions can learn from the COVID-19 situation and the positives that are to come from it. If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue.

Kelly Molson:

Charlie, thank you so much for joining us today on the podcast. It's really lovely to have you.

Charlie Read:

You too, thanks for inviting me along.

Kelly Molson:

Very welcome. I always start off these interviews by asking you a few icebreaker questions just to get to know the real you. And we haven't spoken before, so this will be a quite nice insight into what the real Charlie is like. I hope you're prepared. Okay. Can you tell me, what's at the top of your bucket list?

Charlie Read:

Oh, the top of my bucket list. I think my main passion in life is probably wildlife. I've never been on a safari to East Africa. That's something I'd like to do.

Kelly Molson:

Ah, that would be pretty incredible, wouldn't it?

Charlie Read:

I want to see the wildebeests and the crocodiles and the lions and so on.

Kelly Molson:

Lovely, good bucket list. Can you tell me, what's the worst job you've ever had?

Charlie Read:

Oh my. I had a job once where I had to ring up people from a very, very long list and ask if they wanted to speak to someone to sell pensions to them. I wasn't the guy selling the pensions, I was the guy trying to make appointments. The percentage of people who told me to get lost was very high, in more flowery language than that. Yeah, I found that quite dispiriting, but I didn't do it for very long.

Kelly Molson:

It's quite soul-destroying, isn't it? You have to be really thick-skinned for all of the negative nerves that you're going to get from it.

Charlie Read:

Yeah, exactly. As a part of that, part of the thing I've learned is I'm always really nice to people who cold-call me, because I've done that job and it's not a lot of fun and they're just doing their job.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah, that's true. Well, that's nice. That's a good learning thing to take away from that. Okay. Cats or dogs? It's an important question.

Charlie Read:

Probably dogs. We've got two of each, but I'm definitely a dog person.

Kelly Molson:

Right, and last question. Can you tell me something that is true to you? So you believe that you completely agree on, but nobody else agrees with you on, your unpopular opinion?

Charlie Read:

I've got to be honest. I'll say, I've never been a fan of Star Wars.

Kelly Molson:

Wow.

Charlie Read:

I don't get it, really. I like Empire Strikes Back, I think that's a good film. But I've never really bought into Star Wars.

Kelly Molson:

That's quite a big one. That's quite controversial as well, I think.

Charlie Read:

Yeah.

Kelly Molson:

My partner is exactly the same. He's never ever watched a single Star Wars film, never. I don't even know how he's got through life having avoided them.

Charlie Read:

Yeah. There's a film... I'm pretty obsessed with trees, which we might talk about later. But there's one of those films that takes place in the Redwood Forest in California, which I love.

Kelly Molson:

That's the one with the Ewoks?

Charlie Read:

Yeah. But I never got Star Wars.

Kelly Molson:

All right. I feel like you're going to get some comeback to that, Charlie, when this airs. Thank you for answering those questions. I mean, for people that don't know, Charlie is the Managing Director of Blooloop, which is the world's leading online resource for professionals working in the visitor attraction sector.

Kelly Molson:

I have to just start by saying that throughout the last three or four months, Blooloop has been absolutely invaluable to anybody working in the profession and in this sector. It has been an absolute fountain of knowledge about what's happening in the UK, what's happening globally. It has been the one place that I have turned to on a daily basis actually, to see what is going on and how people are coping.

Kelly Molson:

Firstly, thank you for all of the hard work that's gone into that. I'd really love to hear a little bit about what your background is, and how you ended up as Managing Director of Blooloop.

Charlie Read:

Yeah, sure. I am going way back. My degree was from a poly. They don't exist anymore, I think they're all universities. I did Law, so I was a Lawyer for a while. Then I sort of drifted into publishing. By the time we came down to Devon, where I live now... we live in the middle of nowhere, I needed a job I could do from home. I had always been really, really keen on zoos, aquariums attractions. I knew the publishing world which I had worked in was gradually moving online. That's when I came up with the idea.

Charlie Read:

I very purposely decided to make it about attractions as a whole rather than just museums or just theme parks. Because right then, I recognized this is a dreadful awful management were the commonalities between all these kinds of attractions. I saw that there were a few sites that were just about specific sectors, and companies that marketed themselves as just being about working in a specific vertical market.

Charlie Read:

To be frank, most design companies, for example, they don't really care if the call comes in from an aquarium or a zoo or a museum. And also, museums specifically more and more are becoming much more interactive, much more immersive. They're understanding even if they're not for profit, commercial organizations need to drive people through the gates. They need to get people to stay there, they need to help them have memorable experiences. All visitor attractions are about creating experiences, so I thought it would work to have a site that covered all kinds of experiences and attractions.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah, I completely agree. You see museums in a slightly different segment quite a lot of the time. I've never really understood that because they do have the same challenges as a theme park for example, in terms of getting those customers through the door and that experience part of the process. Yeah, I completely agree with you on that. How has it developed over the years? Was it just yourself when you started it, and then how has it grown?

Charlie Read:

Yeah, it was just me. I started on my own. My wife who runs the business with me, Rachel, she was an accountant for a long time. She was earning very well. It took me a good few years until we got our revenue up enough that she could leave that job and work with Blooloop. Since then, it's progressed and grown very well every year since then. Yeah, but we've just gradually built up what we offer and developed a website, made it better. Yeah, just really, really worked hard to provide a good service to our readers and to our clients.

Kelly Molson:

How has lockdown been for you? Because I guess you're quite used to working from home, so that obviously hasn't been a huge change. But how has it been for you, personally? And also as an organization, what kinds of things have you been doing to support your audience through all of this?

Charlie Read:

Yeah. I think first, personally in terms of my experience, I do work from home. The day-to-day life is much the same. We live in quite a rural area, so it's been okay to go outside and walk around and running or whatever. That's all fine. And so, the main change to me personally is not traveling. I normally go to London probably once a week. I tend to fly somewhere once a month, I would say. Not traveling anywhere has been a change, but it's not been about change. I've quite enjoyed being at home, and focusing on the garden and walking and dogs and stuff like that.

Charlie Read:

As a business, we decided early on that we wanted to maintain and continue to give as good a service as we could. We thought it was important to provide as much useful coverage as we could about coronavirus and its impact. Fortunately, there's been some great resources online. Including you, Kelly, the work you've done putting together sources. For example as well, Alliance of American Museums. There's a lot of great resources out there, and we thought that we were one of them in terms of just putting information out there and reporting what's happening. We decided to do that.

Charlie Read:

Yeah, and business has been fine, to be honest. It's been impacted a little bit, but our traffic has continued to grow which has been great. And so I think we're at a good position to continue through to the new normal, whatever that will be.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah. Who knows? There's a long way to go, isn't there? We'll ask you about that in a little while. What kind of things have you been doing to support your audience? I mean, you have been so constant, like a constant source of resource and a constant source of knowledge throughout it. You obviously have a huge membership database of attractions. How have you been able to help them whilst this has been going on?

Charlie Read:

A lot of what we do is not really... I guess you wouldn't see. We speak to a lot of people on the phone on calls, and where they seek advice. We put people in touch with other people. We do a lot of that kind of stuff. But it's more really in terms of the business, creating content, chasing up people for news, checking news, this kind of stuff. Just making sure that what we report is correct, which is always important. Yeah, and just making sure we give a good service to our readers.

Charlie Read:

I'm very aware that there's an awful lot of people out there who are either furloughed or have lost their jobs. There's whole attractions that are closing. I think from our point of view, at least if we can carry on giving as good a service as we've been doing, then that's important to us.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah. That's good. I guess you want people to continue to use you, so you've been super supportive throughout all of this. I think any membership organization that I've spoken to, has been doing the same. They care about their members, they care about the people that as their audience and they've wanted to do as much as they possibly can to help them throughout all of this. I mean, that's certainly the approach that we've been taking with our clients as well.

Kelly Molson:

From a different perspective, we've seen people that we work with and talk to on a daily basis, just not there anymore. They've been furloughed. There's nothing that they can do to help the organization that is closed. It's been really tough. Lots of positives this week, though. As we speak, it's coming up to mid-July. Attractions are open if they are able to open safely, which is wonderful to see. We are seeing a number of our clients opening next week, which is great. We do lots of work to support them.

Kelly Molson:

I mean, how is the general mood in the industry at the moment? You're probably be best placed to answer that question, because you speak to so many different people.

Charlie Read:

It's obviously a bizarre and unique time. I think that's the first thing to say. And also, people don't really know. It's the uncertainty, I think is the worst thing. Obviously, a lot of attractions are facing pretty catastrophic times immediately right now. There's the misery of people losing their jobs, people being furloughed who won't get taken back on, there's all that kind of stuff.

Charlie Read:

I think there's a kind of cautious optimism from a lot of people I speak to about... We're a resilient industry as a whole. We'll adapt. Theme parks, attractions, museums, they'll just have to change the way they operate. They'll have to invest in new technologies. I think there's a kind of cautious optimism. It is a resilient industry. People do want to go out and do things. People are bursting at the seams to go out and visit attractions. It may not be right now. It may take a few months until coronavirus sort of drifts away a little bit more.

Charlie Read:

But as I say, I'm generally quite an optimistic person. I think we're also seeing a lot of companies pivoting in terms of what they do. People are adapting their businesses. There are some kinds of businesses that will do well out of this. Perhaps tech companies, app companies, for example. Companies are doing things, really obvious things, like making masks or sanitizing equipment and that kind of stuff. I think it's a time of innovation and change. I think although we can acknowledge it's dreadful in many, many ways, I think the industry will survive as a whole but just come out differently.

Kelly Molson:

It's good that you mentioned that. Because one of the questions that I wanted to ask you is if there's anything that attractions can learn from the COVID-19 situation, if there's anything positive that can come out of this situation.

Charlie Read:

One thing it's going to do is accelerate... I think it's going to accelerate change in terms of a move to digital, for example. That is happening. It was happening, and it's going to happen much more quickly than it was. Things like face recognition for example, and touchless technology and this kind of stuff was happening, but that will be accelerated. That's one thing.

Charlie Read:

I think a lot of attractions are going to perhaps rethink how they operate. In the States for example, right now, there's a boom in agritourism. People are visiting farms near to where they live, because they are becoming places that you can go for an afternoon. You can go... I don't know, working in the fields, for example. I think organizations like let's say The National Trust, organizations, theme parks with lots of lands perhaps can start leveraging their outdoor spaces more than they are now. I think there are ways that we can innovate in terms of what we do with visitors when they get through the doors, and I think that kind of change will happen as well.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah, that's interesting. We were actually speaking to Alistair Barber from the National Parks, and that's one of the things that I want to speak to him about. Obviously, at the moment, outdoor attractions are seemed and deemed to be a lot safer than indoor attractions.

Kelly Molson:

There has been a huge increase in demand. I mean, we've seen ticket sales for Chester Zoo, Whipsnade Wildlife Park. The ticket sales have gone through the roof. And obviously, they're at capped to capacity at the moment, but the demand is absolutely there. And it will be really interesting to see how that translates into the demand for some of the indoor attractions as well. If there are things, if they have outdoor space, will they start to use them more? Will they start to see that as an advantage?

Kelly Molson:

You talked a little bit about overseas there. I wanted to see if there's anything that you think that the UK attractions can learn from overseas attractions. Is there anything that you've seen that they are doing differently that we can implement here?

Charlie Read:

Well, I think that the most obvious thing is to look at in terms of operations, is to look at what attractions are doing in places where they've essentially conquered to a large degree, Coronavirus. If you look at China, Singapore, these kinds of places when they're operating, but where attractions have been open for weeks, how are they doing it? Look at the day-to-day operations, like Shanghai Disney, for example. Look at how they treat visitors, look at how the streamlined process is, this kind of stuff. That's what we can learn from in an obvious way.

Charlie Read:

Also, there's been a big move from attractions to becoming I think, more engaging on social media. Reaching out to audiences even if the audiences aren't there. That kind of reaching out will continue even when the visitors are coming back. That will again, will have accelerated that kind of move. There are tons of initiatives online in terms of gaming and game education and engagement with audiences that are really inspiring. I know the Animal Crossing worked with the Field Museum. Even something really obvious like the penguins from the Shedd Aquarium wondering around the Field Museum.

Kelly Molson:

Oh.

Charlie Read:

It's a good example of two institutions collaborating and doing something really engaging and thinking outside of the box.

Kelly Molson:

That was lovely, wasn't it? I think that for me at the beginning of lockdown, there was a real surgence of some really creative and innovative content being pushed out by a lot of organizations. It was just lovely. It's like you say, it's about being part of the conversation even if you can't be open to your guests. It's still sharing that experience with what your attraction is like. I mean, I don't know if you saw the National Cowboy Museum.

Charlie Read:

Oh, yeah.

Kelly Molson:

Oh my gosh, Tim. It was just lovely.

Charlie Read:

What a star.

Kelly Molson:

What an absolute star. Cowboy Tim, for any of you that haven't seen this, please go and check it out. Go and look at the National Cowboy Museum, because their Twitter content was just so fabulous at the start of lockdown. Cowboy Tim is their security guard, isn't he? He's the security manager.

Charlie Read:

Yeah.

Kelly Molson:

He was inside the museum, and he was just talking to you around some of the things that were there and showing you what he was doing on a daily basis. It was just heartwarming, wasn't it? It's not his role. He's no social media manager. But it was so authentic, and I'm sure it's gained them a huge amount of extra followers.

Charlie Read:

Oh, yeah. It was fantastic for exactly the reason you say. It was real. It wasn't someone who had been schooled in social media, very obviously. But he was just genuine. He was articulate and genuine, and he was just funny. It was everything that social media should be, really.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah. Yeah, it's really lovely to see. I do hope that that's done wonders for them. It's funny. I mean, I don't know when I'll get over there, but that's definitely a place that I'm going to go and check out as soon as I can.

Charlie Read:

Oh yeah, and see Tim.

Kelly Molson:

Absolutely. Tell us a little bit about what's next for Blooloop now, because we know that you run a conference every year that is I'm guessing, going to change quite a lot this year. Can you tell us a little bit about what you've got planned?

Charlie Read:

Yeah, sure. We've been running Blooloop live in London for the last four or five years. We started thinking actually probably around a year ago about moving online, but long before COVID. COVID has been dreadful for a billion reasons, and the most trivial of them all is that it made me feel quite opportunistic when we announced we were doing a virtual conference when COVID started because we had been planning it for many, many months.

Charlie Read:

So yeah, we are doing our conference in October. It's called the V-Expo, Virtual Expo. It's essentially a version of our London conference, but bumped up. It's relying on great content. We've got fantastic speakers from around the world. We've got speakers from across a whole variety of attractions, from major theme parks to top museums to new live experiences. We've got speakers announcing expansions to major institutions. We've got speakers launching new live experiences, revealing new plans for resorts. We've got a ton of people announcing new things at the conference. We've also got an exhibition also, vendor companies can have booths and they can showcase their products and services, they can interact with people who visit.

Charlie Read:

We see it as an opportunity of basically expanding our London conference and making it available to a global audience. And also, it's online. We can get speakers from California or from India without them having to fly over here. It's just much easier for attendees and for the speakers. We've also made it... it's free to register.

Charlie Read:

We were absolutely aware that this year of all years, there's tons and tons of people who either have been furloughed or lost their jobs or are uncertain about their future. We've made it free to attend, I think that's an important point. We're also working closely with our friends at Merlin. They're supporting us in terms of promotion and in terms of providing the backdrops for the exhibition as well.

Charlie Read:

Yeah, that'll take place in October. So we're doing that. A few things will happen during that we're working on now. We're just about to launch in the next few days, our Blooloop 50, which is the Theme Park Influencers of the Year. And we're also launching a Blooloop 50 Museum Influencers as well. The results of both of those will be announced during the virtual expo as well. We're also going to do a virtual run during the expo. I know the UK will be doing at least five miles.

Kelly Molson:

Wow, okay. I feel like-

Charlie Read:

I'll take that as when, and we'll sign you up.

Kelly Molson:

The gauntlet has just been thrown down there, hasn't it?

Charlie Read:

Exactly, yeah. We're doing that. Yeah, I think there's a whole lot of things we'll do to make it really interesting and really engaging. It really won't be just a series of Zoom calls. It will be very, very different to that. I'm looking forward to doing it.

Kelly Molson:

That sounds so positive. I think it's lovely that you've been able to make that free for people. I think what an incredible gesture at a time where things are still going to be very difficult. We have to be cautiously excited that attractions can open and are open now, but this is the start of quite a long phase of challenge for people. To be able offer that for free is wonderful. And I think it's such a positive that you can take something that was so London-centric and now it's a global conference, and anyone from all over the world can come and access it so easily. We'll be there, you know that for sure.

Charlie Read:

Yeah, great stuff.

Kelly Molson:

I love to end the podcast interviews by asking you about a book that you'd recommend that's kind of helped shape your career or stood out to you in any way throughout it. Do you have one that you could suggest for us?

Charlie Read:

Yeah. It's an interesting question, because I don't read business and leadership books very much. I tend to read fiction. I've never been a fan of business books. But I'd say, first of all, two books that really influenced me were... when I was a kid, I read My Family and Other Animals, which got me interested in wildlife and I have been ever since. I've got tanks of praying mantids downstairs. I've been keeping praying mantids since I was about seven.

Kelly Molson:

Wow.

Charlie Read:

I've got mantids downstairs. I'm completely obsessed with trees, I grow trees. That book really shaped a lot of my outlook for my whole life, really. I also read Out of Africa when I was in my teens, which again, is about East Africa. Perhaps it's about an East Africa that once was and doesn't exist. It's a very beautiful book. That's a great book.

Charlie Read:

In terms of business, I prefer a story. The Enron story is fantastic. There's a wonderful book called The Smartest Guys in the Room, about the guys behind Enron and how that story unfolded. That's a remarkable book. I think in terms of writing, one author I love is the American crime writer, Elmore Leonard. He has a fantastic essay he did. I think it's 10 Rules of Writing. Anyone who's writing anything, it's worth reading. It's absolutely brilliant. I think the first one is, never start with the weather, which I think is a great-

Kelly Molson:

Yes, that's a good point.

Charlie Read:

Exactly. It's tons of just really great tips from a brilliant, brilliant writer. One of them again is, never used a euphemism for set. So you would never write Kelly observed or Kelly observed astutely, just Kelly said. Because it just sounds better, it's quicker. I think bad writing is when you do that.

Kelly Molson:

I love that you have recommended books that nobody else has spoken about. I really love that you've recommended books that are linked to your personal development, aside from your career development as well.

Kelly Molson:

I have to say though, that you've completely blown my marketing budget yet again. I ask everyone to recommend a book. Most people have recommended at least two books. We give them away as prizes. So if you're listening to this and you'd like to get a copy of all of Charlie's books that he's recommended, then if you head over to our Twitter account, Skip the Queue and retweet this episode announcement with the comment, "I want Charlie's books." Then you could be in with a chance of winning. I need to ask you about your praying mantis, did you say that you've got downstairs?

Charlie Read:

Yeah.

Kelly Molson:

Gosh.

Charlie Read:

They're incredible insects. There's I think 2,500 species or more around the world. They're all made to the same design, but each species is different. There's mantids camouflaged as dry grass, mantids camouflaged as sticks. The ones I've got are camouflaged as dead leaves. There's even mantids camouflaged as orchids, that live on orchid leaves. I think they're extraordinary animals, and they're really easy to keep.

Kelly Molson:

This is not tied to attractions at all. But I need to know this, Charlie.

Charlie Read:

Yeah.

Kelly Molson:

How did you first decide this is the pet for me, this is the animal for me?

Charlie Read:

Well, when I was really young, I used to get a magazine called Look and Learn in the UK, which your elder listeners will know about. It had an article about mantids. I'll always remember, it had a paragraph that said they're really easy to keep, you can simply feed them on pieces of dried vegetables. So my mum said, "Fine. That's fine. We'll get one of those." So we got one. And then as soon as we got one, we realized that that paragraph had been completely untrue and you have to feed them on live flies.

Kelly Molson:

Oh, God. I bet your mum was delighted.

Charlie Read:

Well exactly, yeah. Ever since then, I've just found them fascinating. Wherever you go in the world, if you're in a reasonably warm country, there are different species of mantids. If I'm in Singapore and I'm visiting a trade show, I'll always go off to the national parks and I'll always go off taking photographs and looking for insects.

Kelly Molson:

Oh, I love this. I'm not going to ask you to choose your favorite attraction, because that would be, I'm sure, too difficult. But does that mean that you are much more drawn to attractions that are like parks, botanical gardens, wildlife parks, that kind of thing?

Charlie Read:

I love theme parks of course, and I go to theme parks whenever I can. But we've got people who work here who are obsessed with theme parks all the time. But I wouldn't say I'm like that. But I am pretty much obsessed with botanical gardens, aquariums, and zoos. Yeah. I think the attraction I've been most to in my life is Kew Gardens.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah. I mean, it's just a beautiful place as well. I hope that they are going to do their Christmas show this year because the Christmas lights is just magical, isn't it?

Charlie Read:

Oh, the Christmas lights are fantastic.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah.

Charlie Read:

I'm supposed to be running a marathon there in September as well.

Kelly Molson:

You're a marathon runner who's just challenged me to a five-mile. I feel like this could end quite badly for me.

Charlie Read:

Oh, yeah. Make it 5K, 5K.

Kelly Molson:

All right. Thanks, Charles. Charlie, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. It's been absolutely delightful to talk to you. We will put all of the information in the show notes, especially all the information about the Blooloop Expo, which is coming up. I think it's wonderful that you're doing that just for registration. Thanks so much for everything that you've been doing for the sector throughout this, it's really appreciated.

Charlie Read:

It's a pleasure, Kelly. Thanks for inviting me along.

Kelly Molson:

Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five-star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned. Skip the Queue is brought to you by

Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website, rubbercheese.com/podcast.

Download The Visitor Attractions Website Survey Report - https://www.merac.co.uk/download-the-visitor-attractions-survey

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Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is  Kelly Molson, MD of Rubber Cheese.

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If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website rubbercheese.com/podcast

If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this episode.

Competition ends October 31st 2020. The winner will be contacted via Twitter.

Show references:

johnnylyle.co.uk/about-branding/

Transcription:

Kelly Molson:

Welcome to Skip the Queue. A podcast for people working in or working with visitor attractions. I'm your host, Kelly Molson. Each episode, I speak with industry experts from the attractions world. These chats are fun, informative, and hopefully always interesting. If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the YouTube channels by searching Skip the Queue.

Kelly Molson:

In today's episode, I speak with Johnny Lyle, a Marketing and Digital Director for the attractions industries. Johnny advises Sundown Adventureland, and Audley End Miniature Railway. And in the past, he's worked with the BeWILDerwood, won a coveted DBA gold award, and Drum Grand Prix for the best marketing launch. We discuss how he's advised attractions about digital marketing throughout lockdown, and what lies ahead for attractions in the UK.

Kelly Molson:

Johnny, welcome to the podcast. It's so lovely to have you on today.

Johnny Lyle:

Well, thank you for having me.

Kelly Molson:

So we were introduced quite early on in lockdown weren't we by a mutual friend of ours, lovely Rachel. And I think for me, that's been one of the really great things about this situation. Always looking at the positives. I've been able to talk to some really interesting and really fun people because everyone's had a little bit more time to give up, but we don't know each other that well. So what I'd like to do at the beginning of any of our podcast interviews is just do a little icebreaker round. Now you haven't been able to prepare any answers for this, so you don't know what's coming. You look worried.

Johnny Lyle:

Yeah, I am.

Kelly Molson:

Don't be. Right. Okay. So first question. Do you prefer books or podcasts?

Johnny Lyle:

Books. As you can see on the video with about how many books I'm surrounded by.

Kelly Molson:

There's something about the smell isn't there for me. That's what does it for me. I've never been a big fan of a Kindle. I like to have that kind of paper feeling and that smell.

Johnny Lyle:

Most of my readings is on a Kindle now, to be honest, but these are the books that I can't part with. So I've read every one in here and these are the ones I won't part with. There's lots more I read, but these are only the ones my favorites.

Kelly Molson:

Good, we'll come to that later because I've got a question about a book for you. What is the worst job that you've ever had?

Johnny Lyle:

When I was at university I was temping and I did two. One of them was delivering for a soft drinks company into pubs at four o'clock in the morning, five o'clock in the morning. And the other one was genuinely working at a tip, picking up the rubbish, that had blown up onto the fence around the outside. So the job site was Womble as a litter picker in a rubbish tip.

Kelly Molson:

Actually Womble.

Johnny Lyle:

Which was actually very well paid because no one wanted to do it, allowed me to buy a car in my first year of university. So it was good.

Kelly Molson:

A means to an end. It was a good job. Final icebreaker question. This is my favorite question. So can you tell me something that's true to you that almost nobody agrees with you on? So what is your unpopular opinion?

Johnny Lyle:

That Oxford United are worthy winners in tomorrow's and Monday's playoffs and should have always been in the championship or the premiership.

Kelly Molson:

I feel like this is controversial.

Johnny Lyle:

It's not controversial for me. It's an absolute fact.

Kelly Molson:

Thank you for sharing. We'll leave that there.

Johnny Lyle:

But depending on when this goes out, I might already have been proved wrong, I don't know, if we lose the playoff.

Kelly Molson:

Okay. You are a marketing specialist working in the attraction sector. How long have you been working in the industry and what's a typical project for you?

Johnny Lyle:

So officially, the first project I did started about 2007. At the time I was running a brand consultancy, and I had just lost my father and was offered a project to work in house with a client for a period of time for a company called Treehouse Company, getting ready. They had a new product called The Bothy Lodge Company and they wanted to take it to IPO. So I went in a acting Market Director for a few months to get them ready for that. Treehouse company had a contract to build a tree house adventure play place over in Norfolk, which at the time was going to be called Kingswater, which ultimately became BeWILDerwood.

Kelly Molson:

Great. Yeah, that went well.

Johnny Lyle:

So I met my now very, very good friend, Simon Egan, who I still work with because we've now got a company together, CAPCo where we build great big adventure, play things. We've done Castle Howard, and Culzean, and Lowther Castle, and Fort Douglas and places like that. So we started that and it just took off our plan was to have 35,000 visitors a year in the first year. And we got 12,000 in the second week.

Kelly Molson:

Gosh.

Johnny Lyle:

And then it just went ballistic. It was just total overnight success it won a THEA as the Best Children's Attraction in the worldish at the time. It won DBA gold, it won the Drum Grand Prix for Best Marketing Launch.

Johnny Lyle:

It just cleaned up it won everything. A Treehouse Company won tons as well that year actually as well. So it was quite good. And then from that, just more and more people asked me whether I would get involved with them. And eventually, I left the design agency, my own design agency and sold it to my partners, so I could focus more on this.

Kelly Molson:

Nice.

Johnny Lyle:

So probably eight years full time now in doing this.

Kelly Molson:

So as an agency owner myself, you've got a coveted DBA award.

Johnny Lyle:

Yeah. And it was the first time we'd ever entered that. And it was the same year as the launch of the MINI. So we were up there with... And the Beijing Olympics won, I think at the same time as well, or was that when we won the THEA? So it was a good year.

Kelly Molson:

Nice. So it's eight years that you've been working as a Consultant. What kind of things do you get involved in now? How do you advise attractions?

Johnny Lyle:

There's two sort of typical... Sure you'd expect me to say there's nothing typical, but there's two types of work. The first one is when an attraction's failing or something's gone wrong. A couple of years ago, I had two in succession where the digital agency had built the website and left it blocked from Google as they launched it, and cost them all of their web traffic. And so I went into find out what was wrong and sort it out. And then the second is when they want a new way of thinking. So it might be reviewing their internal team. It might be to reposition the attraction. So the one near South of Walden that you know well is Audley End Miniature Railway. So we moved that from being a minute railway, the old miniature railway enthusiastic would go to, into being a family attraction where young families would go.

Johnny Lyle:

And in doing so, again, grew it from 50,000 to 110,000 a year in profitability. So those are the sorts of things, but I guess the main part of it is I don't want to be the one necessarily going in and actually doing the work. I'd much rather if there was already an in house team there and they needed training, or upskilling or help with some rethinking really more than anything. I'm certainly not trying to go in and replace anyone. I don't want their jobs. I'm not a threat to them. In theory, I should only ever be an asset to them.

Kelly Molson:

So how has it been for you throughout this period? Attractions have been closed, it's been really difficult. You talked a little bit there about a typical project for you, taking the visitor numbers from 50,000 up to a 100,000 plus. At the moment, that's really challenging. We've got attractions that have got capped to capacity. They can only take so many people through the doors and that's if some of them can open and they're able to open within the restrictions that we've currently have in terms of people's safety. So how has it been for you during lockdown? What have you been able to help them with and advise them with?

Johnny Lyle:

The main thing for me was continuing to communicate. Is actually keep talking, try and keep front of mind because with everyone, loads of people just furloughed all their marketing stuff almost overnight. So that made it really difficult because there weren't people that do the work. So it's been trying to keep a low level of communication without certainly not whining, keeping positive, keeping sort of say, "We're really looking forward to having you back when we can." And making sure that they could see that you were taking every step to protect them going forward. And it's still a fun place to look forward to coming back to. But it was a real challenge because almost everyone switched off. I think everyone went into total rabbit in the headlights, no one knew what to do.

Johnny Lyle:

So certainly the attractions I worked with, they just went very, very quiet. There was big stress in terms of choosing when to close. And I think with the ones I worked with the most closely, they closed early, they actually went a bit early and got really, really good feedback from their customers for it in both cases, in the two I worked very closely with. So now it's a case of making sure you don't go back too early, and don't suddenly aim for as big a capacity as you could possibly get away with because I just don't think people are going to feel safe.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah, I think you're right actually. And that's similar conversations that we've been having with our clients is they need to be ready, and they need to make sure that they've worked through the procedures and they need to make sure that it is safe, and welcoming, and a happy place for people to be back out. So I think you're totally right about people not rushing into reopen, it's the right way to approach it. We've had similar conversations with the clients that we work for in terms of trying to keep that conversation going, even while you're closed. If you can't be open and have people there still be part of that conversation, did you speak to any clients around virtual tours or producing content that people could use at home as well?

Johnny Lyle:

We did a lot of that. Sundown Adventureland it was a peaceful old attraction. They produced a lot things for kids to do at home. So there's lots of coloring, lots of little puzzles and all sorts of bits. And we did one behind the scenes tour about how one of the rides was actually made for those who were interested. And that went really well. And I think that was one of my lessons I think was be generous, give stuff away because it will come back. You'll be rewarded by being generous. Don't be grabby at all. I think there was people charging for some of these downloads at one point and that very, very quickly got stopped. So the ones I worked with didn't do masses because they're not particularly big attractions. They're like up to 300,000ish that tends to be where I work. So they didn't do masses because they don't necessarily have really, really distant appeal. They're still relatively local markets. So it was a balance between keeping them on board, and not talking to them too much again on the nerves.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah. It's a fine line, isn't it? Because, like you say, a lot of the teams were furloughed and they're running a really scale back skeleton team. You want to help, but you don't want to be imposing. You don't want to be a burden or an annoyance to them at any point as well.

Johnny Lyle:

But the big opportunity that I think we did take was it was a fabulous opportunity. The other guy Blink, there was that little story about Pepsi and Coke in the Cola Wars. Was it was a brilliant opportunity to really work on your SEO and really work on your content of your site. So I did a lot of that, a lot of groundwork and a lot of work on Google Business, looking at local links and citations and getting that groundwork in that will come back when people start searching again for what to do. And that was, I've loved that that's been brilliant and I'm quite looking forward to seeing what the results of some of those are going to be.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah, that's nice, isn't it? Like you say, put the groundwork in while you were closed. If you could focus on some of those things, getting all your ducks in a row, as they say.

Johnny Lyle:

Yeah.

Kelly Molson:

You're going to be in a better place for when you open. The weekend is approaching where attractions, if they can and are able to open safely, they will be. What's the current mood like with some of your attractions as they start to plan that opening?

Johnny Lyle:

Nervous, I think. And I think nervous for their teams as well because they're very close to their teams. They want to make sure they're not putting their own teams at risk, but the business model is going to be completely different. The critical bit in the first few weeks is going to be TripAdvisor reviews and Facebook reviews. What people say, because they're going to make or break attractions, I think in the next few weeks. And if people have gone into... They're going to allow too many people in and people don't feel safe, they're not going to be afraid to tell other people.

Johnny Lyle:

And I think then you will destroy the whole of the rest of your year, if you try and take too many. If you go much above 30% capacity, 40% capacity by the summer, then I think you really are taking a massive risk. And the next big one I think is going to be most attractions, have an indoor Christmas experience. If you get it wrong now you're not going to have any form of indoor Christmas experience either. You've got to get it right. You've got to not take too much or try and take too much now because otherwise I think you could lose everything.

Kelly Molson:

Gosh, it is quite frightening to think about that, isn't it? Christmas at the moment seems like really far away, but obviously we know that a lot of the Christmas campaigns start to be planned now...

Johnny Lyle:

Yeah.

Kelly Molson:

..If not just before now. And things like Halloween and those kind of activities too start to be planned. It's just really difficult even with a capacity of 30%, like you say, that's been set, we still don't really know if they're going to achieve that. What we've seen recently, which has been brilliant is the overwhelming demand for zoos and outdoor activities.

Johnny Lyle:

Yeah.

Kelly Molson:

We're not sure that we're going to get the same surgence for indoor attractions, and that's the big challenge for them I think at the moment.

Johnny Lyle:

No, people are still definitely more nervous about indoor, aren't they? There's no doubt about that. The problem is though, I think for a lot of attractions. Their business model's got to change because if you think a lot of attractions, summer can be 30%, 40% of turnover. Christmas can again be 25, 30% of turnover. If you could only operate on 30, 40% capacity on your biggest months, then your business model means you're already going to do 40% of your annual turnover potentially. So you've got to be able to get through until at the earliest next summer I think before we could be back to any form of normality.

Kelly Molson:

So what kind of things have you been advising your clients that they can do now, and then they can continue to do for the future? Because the bigger question is what is the future for attractions? And at the moment, that's a really tough question to ask because I think that most of us sitting here, we don't know what the next two weeks will bring, let alone where the next two months will bring. But what are your thoughts on what attractions can do now to start boostering their marketing? Have you been looking at advising your clients about what they can do now and for the next few months?

Johnny Lyle:

I think the main thing is trying to welcome people back, trying to make sure that it is fun. It's more about having fun than them thinking they're at risk. If they're walking into an attraction, looking over their shoulder thinking, "Oh, I wonder if he's got it. I wonder if they've got it." Then they're not going to come back. So the main one I've been rabbiting on about all the time is making sure that your staff are smiling because that smile first ask questions later has always been something I've tried to work to. And I think if you don't make it a fun place to be first and foremost, people won't come back. Other than that, it's hunker down and make sure you try, and keep your costs to an absolute minimum and maximize the fun and try and survive. I know that sounds incredibly negative, unless you've really done the math, I think it's going to be an incredibly tough period for most attractions.

Johnny Lyle:

Particularly, the ones who are highly geared. So the ones who borrowed money, big money in the last few years, and they're dependent on the numbers. Like the Merlins of this world, who they are going to find it very, very tough. Because I know people will go back, I know they're open and that you can walk around the grounds now. They're going to be operating on tiny capacities, aren't they?

Kelly Molson:

Yeah, I guess that's something that we've been talking a little bit about the last couple of weeks at the studio actually, maximizing the revenue from the visitors that can come through your doors. How are you looking at the retail environment that you've got on site? Most attractions are opening and offering booking time slots. So that's something that we've been talking to our clients about. Can they book food slots while they're there? Can they book a slot in the retail environment so that they feel safer, but also you're driving them to maybe while they're there just capture as much revenue from them as you possibly can. At that point. I don't know if that's something that you've been talking to your clients about as well?

Johnny Lyle:

Not much, but I did a big Zoom the other day with about 10 attractions, the CAPco clients, we spoke to a lot of them. And one really interesting one was Bean who runs Chobham Adventure Farm, he's a real innovator. So they're doing it on time slots, two or three hour time slots can't remember. But each of the people who are booking are being allocated a table within the place as well. They're doing full food service, it's still you walk up and you get your food, but there's obviously social distancing within the queuing because food is a really important part of their offer. But they're also offering the ability for people to upgrade. It's a bit [inaudible 00:18:02], but you can actually choose which table you want for a little bit extra.

Kelly Molson:

Okay.

Johnny Lyle:

So you can get a table in one of the better areas.

Johnny Lyle:

I think there's a real danger though that attractions are... If you're caught profiteering. If you're caught putting prices up, if you're caught doing anything like that, then again that will come back and haunt you. It'll come back in reviews. And we've seen that on Amazon, actually, Amazon have kicked off a lot of suppliers who were profiteering who were doing the 500 pound toilet roll trick or whatever. If they're doing it, then TripAdvisor, Facebook, they're going to do it just from your reviews. So I think it's about trying to increase the well time, so that people will eat. Retail is going to be really difficult because all the advice has come from the government and that has come from fan and all the other bodies has said, don't direct people out through your shop.

Johnny Lyle:

So retail in attractions is going to be very hard hit. But I think what we've looked at is more pop ups is to make more other small places around the park. So actually you can go and get an ice cream; you can go and get a drink; you can go and get a slushee; you can go and buy a memento somewhere else. So it's not all in one big retail environment.

Kelly Molson:

Right, so you're not funneling people through that area. I guess, it's hard to swallow because we do obviously have to consider that a lot of us are going to be... This is a difficult time for so many people and we're going to be struggling in time in terms of what money we actually have coming in. So not everybody's going to have the same amount of free money that they had to spend previously, isn't it? And you need to get that marketing... you need to get it really right. It has to be really sympathetic and empathetic.

Johnny Lyle:

Yeah. But a lot of people have been furloughed remember, and being on full pay or 80% pay sitting at home, doing nothing with almost no outgoing. So all the research again showed a different view, did a lot of research, and ALVA did a lot of research. All of that research said in the sentiment surveys that people weren't expecting to be discounted, they were quite happy to come back and pay full price. And I think we've seen that already again with the zoos. I know we have with Cotswold Wildlife Park as well, even at some of the bits the attractions are closed. They're actually still quite happy to come in and pay, which is really encouraging. I guess at this stage, it's probably the very loyal customers who are coming back first and some of the others will be more choosy.

Johnny Lyle:

I've seen a lot of talk on Facebook again from customers saying, "It's too early for us yet. We're still shielding." Or, "Little Doris is not well enough. We don't want to take that risk." So if you make it, so it's a great place to be for your regular customers and try and live off that, and work with them and make sure they have a great time. Then the others will come back. I'm sure.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah. So big question. And I know it's probably one that can't be answered, but what do you think that the future looks like for attractions in the UK?

Johnny Lyle:

I think it's going to be tough. I think there'll be some weeding out. I think there's going to be a big unemployment hit, which is going to be harder for attractions because whilst people are on furlough, they're not being laid off by companies and we're already seeing it in the Northwest. There's some adjustment, Airbus are laying people off. I think Derby, Rolls-Royce are laying people off. There's going to be layoffs in some quite big numbers around. So that's going to hit the economy very hard and it's still a discretionary spend. So you just got to make sure that we deliver great value and great fun and an escape. The advantage we've got this year is that less people are going to be traveling overseas. So more people are going to be staycationing and enjoying what's around them.

Johnny Lyle:

But I don't think I've got any specific longterm thoughts yet. We've just got to see how this emerges as we come out. But I think the weaker ones will really struggle. We've already seen it in our football. I know you like your football as well, but Wigan are going out of business and there's going to be others like that, aren't there? And football is a bit of a mess in lots of ways. So I think the attraction because it's again, a discretionary spend. It's something that people do for fun is going to be challenged.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah. Yeah. You mentioned football. I might as well get it out in the open about being a Tottenham fan, which-

Johnny Lyle:

I knew that.

Kelly Molson:

... has its pros and cons. Similarly, Lee and I have both got... we have season tickets and we have no idea when we're going to go back and we have no idea how that's going to work or.

Johnny Lyle:

Yeah. If you take some of the bigger attractions, one of my favorite attractions I've ever been to is Puy du Fou in France, incredible. No rides, but all shows. It's got 10 different shows. It's the most incredible attraction I've ever been to. And then you've got there's the one Kynren up in Newcastle, or North East, which I've been to as well, which grew from Puy du Fou. On the big evening show at Puy du Fou it only runs about 50 nights a year or so. They've got 14,000 people in a stand, all right next to each other, sitting next to each other and 2000 people in the cast, how are they going to run that? It can't run unless you can fill it because it can't possibly be profitable. It's going to be so difficult for them.

Johnny Lyle:

And they're going to have to adjust their business model. They're either going to have to build massive temporary stands to allow that many people to sit there, but be twice as far apart, or they're going to say, "Well, we're outside anyway. So it'll probably be okay." There's really obviously really major adjustments to come. And I think one of the other ones, again, I know I mentioned Merlin before. If you take the big rides, the really big thrill rides. A lot of the time on those rides is spent in the pre-show is the queuing section, and the pre-show evolved because they were trying to make it so you weren't really queuing you were actually enjoying the pre-show. You were being warmed up, ready for the ride. Most of those are indoors. A lot of those are going to have to be removed.

Johnny Lyle:

So if all you're going to do is walk straight onto the front a long social distance queue and then walk and get onto the ride without as much as the pre-show, it's just not going to be as much fun. You're not going to have be warmed up in the same way. So you're not going to be having the same level expectation about that ride. So that will be quite different, I think again.

Kelly Molson:

Yep. So opening up, but still it's a long journey, a long road ahead for many of the attractions and the way that they're set up. And lots of changes that's going to need to be made.

Johnny Lyle:

I sound like I'm being really negative and I don't mean to be, but I'm trying to be pragmatic and think of what you can do. So much of that is still come back to the welcome. It's got to be about the welcome, and make sure that the ones you can get and the ones who are, that you just absolutely welcome them with open arms and make them feel safe and loved. And as though they're going to have a great day, help them have a great day. Because that's what going out to these places is like, is it has to be about having a great day?

Kelly Molson:

So when I spoke to Ben, he talked a lot about the front of house, and actually it's the front of house team that really make that experience. And we know that, we know that if you arrive somewhere and it feels magical because the people are magical. That's the start of the fun, isn't it?

Johnny Lyle:

Yeah.

Kelly Molson:

So I completely, I completely hear where you're coming from and it's a difficult question. We just don't know what's coming next, but you're right. If you are able to bring back people, make them feel as welcome and as happy, they're in the best place in the world. What at the moment, what's the biggest challenge that you have with your role at the moment? And how do you think that you'll overcome it?

Johnny Lyle:

I think my biggest challenge is being 54. It's being a Digital Marketing Specialist at 54. A lot of people assume it's a young person's game. And so at the moment, I'm still lucky enough to be taken seriously by people with it because I've got a track record. But I think as I get another few years on, are you going to want a 60 year old to come in and look at your digital marketing? And I don't know whether people will. So it's a completely personal thing and I think that's going to be difficult. So I think I've got to evolve more into leading and training than actually doing, but I'm interested enough to keep seeing what matters and what's changing, but I guess that's going to get harder and harder. You're lucky. You're really young.

Kelly Molson:

Not that young, but yeah, it's not that long. You haven't got many years on me. You'd be surprised. I hear what you're saying though. I look at that and think, "Well, I run a digital agency now, but I'm 42. Again, what will I be when I'm 50. Will I be running the digital age? I don't know." I guess that's the same kind of perception.

Johnny Lyle:

I've been talking about that a lot with my family, to be honest. And it's one, I've always got some form of side hustle going. I've always got some online business that I'm running somewhere or that I'm trialing. And I guess it's have another go at some of them and see where they emerge, but really continue to focus on, I think more to do more towards training and leadership and overviewing than actually doing. Because with one of my clients, I still actually do all the work. I still write all the content and produce all the social media stuff. Which is brilliant because it keeps you very, very close so that you can see what works, and you can measure what works. But I can't see myself being able to do that or wanting to do that and another five years, to be honest.

Kelly Molson:

So one of the things that are at the beginning of the podcast, I said, we were introduced by a mutual friend. This has been one of the positives that I can take from this period is that I've had time, and people who have been generous to give me their time to chat and just to meet really interesting people. What's the biggest surprise that you've had over the last few months and why?

Johnny Lyle:

Well, you asked me a question earlier about, what's my unpopular opinion. And I almost used this one then. And I think it's how nice the weather is when there's no planes flying and there's no cars on the road because I just can't believe the two are unrelated. If we chucking pollution into the top of the sky with planes, then we're going to make clouds and we're not going to have nice weather. I'll say that now instead of you chucking that outside, but nevermind. But the traffic has picked right back up again. And I think I was surprised. I was really nervous at first about taking this forced time off. Because I've never really done it before.

Johnny Lyle:

And I was nervous about what the future held and work and the like. Actually, I just relaxed into it really quickly and I thoroughly enjoyed it. And I've baked a load of bread and I've made a load of lovely food and we've walked the entire Werl coastline, and poor dog is exhausted from it. And just actually enjoyed a slower pace of life that I've genuinely never had since I started my first business at 23.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah. It's nice. It's been again, that's definitely a plus reconnecting a little bit more with nature and just taking that time that we've been... I guess we have to say that we've been gifted it just to slow things down a little bit.

Johnny Lyle:

Yeah. I've mostly sat down at my desk, nearly every day still. So I didn't completely get out of the habit of it, but I very rarely worked beyond three o'clock and by three o'clock, "Oh, gin and tonic." And sit out in the garden, put my feet up and read my book. It's sweet.

Kelly Molson:

Delightful. Okay book. Well, that brings us onto our last question. So we like to ask our guests, if they have a book that they would recommend that's helped shaped your career.

Johnny Lyle:

I'm going to cheat. I can't narrow it down to one. So I'm going nar... I'm going to narrow it down to-

Kelly Molson:

You're going to do two aren't you? Three? You're killing me.

Johnny Lyle:

Right three. 7 Habits of Highly Effective People, Stephen Covey. I read it probably 20 years ago for the first time. The live, love leave a legacy that bit about making sure you think about what you leave behind was critical. It changed everything about the way I thought that's the first one. The second one, which is directly related to be honest, is Five People You Meet In Heaven by Mitch Albom. Which shows the effect of what you're saying, and what you're doing has on other people. And makes you much more conscious of the impact you can have consciously, or subconsciously really does make you moderate your behavior. Because I'm prone to be a loud mouth know all. And I've really learned to think about what I'm saying because of that.

Johnny Lyle:

And then the third one, which is absolutely brilliant everyone should read it is called Fish! by Stephen Lundin, which is about the guys who work in Seattle fish market. And it's all about choose your attitude. You absolutely undoubtedly choose your attitude. You decide what you want to be when you get into work. That was fantastic. Then again, in my design agency days, we put a whole staff through a training session on that. We did a whole day training session just with that one book and film. And they all have had a massive positive impact on me as well as about 10,000 other books. Those are the three that I could narrow it down to.

Kelly Molson:

Great. I mean great choices, but also you guys are blowing my book budget because what we do is we offer people the chance to win the book. But now it's books. Ben had two books as well, you're killing me. Okay.

Johnny Lyle:

Sorry.

Kelly Molson:

If you'd like to win a copy of Johnny's books, then if you head over to our Twitter account, which is Skip the Queue, and you retweet this episode announcement with the comment "I want Johnny's books.", Then you'll be in with a chance of winning them. Them, "Ah." Better get my Amazon order in now.

Johnny Lyle:

Our daughter runs a coffee shop in Nottingham. And she has just started getting into it. "I wanted to develop myself. I want to get better." And so I sent her a copy of the Fish! Book as one to start with. And she was totally and utterly blown away with it and is now buying copies of it herself for all her staff, and actually running a training session with all her staff. Just to go through that because it had such an impact on her.

Kelly Molson:

No, well, that's a good sign of a book, isn't it? I think we've done that a few times where books have had a real moment with us. And we've given copies of them to our clients, or we've given copies of them to people that have referred or things like that. So that's a real testament to a good book.

Johnny Lyle:

Well, I'm second hand on Amazon, they're only a few pence then you pay £2.80 delivery. It's got to be worth it. You don't even need to buy them new, buy the secondhand recycle them. Get books-

Kelly Molson:

I'm happy with second hand books, it's what you might all be getting listeners.

Johnny Lyle:

Yeah. Don't buy new, buy second hands. There's no point in wasting more paper printing new ones when there's loads of old copies of about.

Kelly Molson:

Johnny, thank you so much for being on the podcast today. It's been really real pleasure to have you on. Lots of changes come in. It'll be interesting to see what the next few months look like. Maybe we can catch up again after Christmas and see where we're all at.

Johnny Lyle:

Yeah. Christmas is going to be the big one, isn't it? Let's see what state everyone's in when we get to Christmas. And then smile our way through Christmas and then have a brilliant next year. I think we've got to write this year off and then have a brilliant one next year.

Kelly Molson:

2021's the one.

Johnny Lyle:

Yeah, it is.

Kelly Molson:

All right. Thanks Johnny.

Johnny Lyle:

Thanks Kelly.

Kelly Molson:

Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned. Skip the Queue is brought to you by 

Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website rubbercheese.com/podcast.

Download The Visitor Attractions Website Survey Report - https://www.merac.co.uk/download-the-visitor-attractions-survey

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Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is  Kelly Molson, MD of Rubber Cheese.

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If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website rubbercheese.com/podcast
If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this episode.

Competition ends October 31st 2020. The winner will be contacted via Twitter.

Show references:

www.continuumattractions.com

www.linkedin.com/in/jules-ozbek-aa339735/

Transcription:

Kelly Molson:

Welcome to Skip the Queue, a podcast for people working in or working with visitor attractions. I'm your host, Kelly Molson. Each episode, I speak with industry experts from the attractions world.

In today's episode, I speak with Jules Ozbek, Head of Sales and Marketing at Continuum Attractions. We discuss their marketing approach for attractions during a time of capped capacity and their approach to marketing segmentation that's not driven by demographics. If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue.

Kelly Molson:

Jules, thank you for coming on the podcast today. It's lovely to have you with us. I really appreciate your time.

Jules Ozbeck:

Pleasure.

Kelly Molson:

I always start off these podcast interviews with a few little icebreaker questions, because we haven't spoken before and I think it's quite nice to just get to know the real you.

Kelly Molson:

All right. So first one, where is the worst place you could get stuck?

Jules Ozbek:

The Tube at rush hour.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah. How tall are you, as well, because I have that-

Jules Ozbek:

I'm five foot two.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah, me too. I'm going to say I'm five, two and a half because that half makes a difference. But I'm at armpit height as well.

Jules Ozbek:

Exactly.

Kelly Molson:

It's the worst.

Jules Ozbek:

And I suffer a little bit from Claustrophobia, so being on the Tube, under people's armpits at rush hour, yeah, worst nightmare.

Kelly Molson:

I'm with you. I'm totally with you on that one. Okay. What is your favorite movie quote?

Jules Ozbek:

Gosh, that's a hard one. The one that springs to mind first is, "Don't put baby in the corner," but I think that's because I was a Dirty Dancing fan as a teenager.

Kelly Molson:

Who isn't? I mean, still am.

Jules Ozbek:

And I'd hate to be put in the corner myself.

Kelly Molson:

I think that's a great answer. I'm an '80s film fan as well, so that really hits the spot with me.

Jules Ozbek:

Definitely. You can't beat, Dirty Dancing and Top Gun are two of my all-time favorite movies.

Kelly Molson:

Yes. My quote is a Top Gun quote. Absolutely, it would have been a Top Gun quote.

Kelly Molson:

All right. So this is the last icebreaker question, but it's always my favorite one. So can you tell me something that's true to you, that almost nobody agrees with you on? So what is your unpopular opinion?

Jules Ozbek:

Oh, gosh. That's really a hard one. Breakfast food is the best and could be eaten at every mealtime.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah. Are we talking continental?

Jules Ozbek:

No. I mean, continental's great because who doesn't ever pain au chocolat? But I'm talking like pancakes. You could have pancakes for lunch quite easily. You can make a mid-meal out of breakfast, which is brunch, and who doesn't love brunch because you can also have a mimosa with brunch.

Kelly Molson:

You are my kind of woman, Jules.

Jules Ozbek:

Yeah. Bacon sandwich, BLT. You can eat that stuff any time of the day. So if I had to pick one meal time to eat for the rest of my life, it would be breakfast and all its glory.

Kelly Molson:

And with the mimosas thrown in as well.

Jules Ozbek:

Yeah.

Kelly Molson:

It's a perfect combination. Great. Thank you. Anyway, moving on. So Jules, can you tell us what your background has been in the attractions world and how you've come to work with Continuum?

Jules Ozbek:

Sure. So I started my career in event management for Northumbria University while I was studying for my master's, which opened a lot of doors to me and a great experience. And then went on to work for a business called Northern Film and Media, who were the regional screen agency for the North of England. And I was their events manager. So really early doors were all about the guest experience and quality. I sold my soul and went corporate for a period of time. I worked for a company that delivered the Business Link service before the conservative government came in. Massive spending review, was made redundant, and did some of the various bits and pieces before going to work for the National Railway Museum in York, which I fell in love with.

Jules Ozbek:

I really enjoy working with people that are leaders in their fields and are passionate and love what they do, and steam train enthusiasts really do fit into that sphere. I had a great time working for them, and then I went on to work for English Heritage, some eight or nine years ago now, at a time where English Heritage were going through quite a big restructure, again, off the back of government spending. And also, they were looking at their brand and how their brand was perceived in the world, and it was very clear that at that point in time, it was perceived as very male, very tweed, very old-fashioned academic and stuffy, and where they wanted to be was in the family arena of fun, engaging, enriching. So they were about to embark on this journey of moving the English Heritage brand from where it was forward. So a really exciting time.

Jules Ozbek:

I also walked into a marketing department that was nonexistent in the York office in the North of England. So I found cassettes from the '80s with radio campaigns and things on. I was like, "Wow."

Kelly Molson:

Wow.

Jules Ozbek:

Yeah. So I had a great time there, built a brilliant team around me, worked for a really, really great lady called Elizabeth Page, who I got on very well with, was a great mentor. And we had a portfolio of 38 sites, everything from stately houses to castles, to bits of rock in the middle of fields, and also Hadrian's Wall, some 72 miles of UNESCO World Heritage sites. So an amazing portfolio to work with, with a great team. And we grew the commercial side of the business quite exponentially actually, over the four or five years that I was there. So a really great time to be involved in that.

Jules Ozbek:

And then I was wrenched away because I loved it so much, but I knew I'd hit that glass ceiling and couldn't do anymore. So took the leap into Continuum Attractions, where I am today. Quite a bit culture shock, I think it's fair to say, to go from working for a very historic, very authoritative, very academic English Heritage, with these huge brand values that stand behind it, to a really nimble commercial organization of a diverse portfolio, eclectic mix of attractions spread across the UK. But I'm still here some four years later, so I'm clearly enjoying it.

Kelly Molson:

Must have loved it.

Jules Ozbek:

Yeah. And again, work with some really great people. Our chief exec, Juliana has been in this business for 35 years. And I've got a really great team of sales and marketing professionals within the business as well. So yeah, here I am.

Kelly Molson:

And you say about eclectic and it really is, isn't it? You've got multiple attractions, they're all extremely different. We go from the York chocolate shop, which we've all been to, which we love, Oxford Castle & Prison, the Emmerdale Studio Experience, and then the Emirates Spinnaker Tower down in Portsmouth. So, that must be really satisfying to have that kind of variety of portfolio of the attractions that you work with.

Jules Ozbek:

It is. And no two days are the same. I think that the things I love most about this role is that I'm working with all the different destination marketing organizations across the UK and they all come with different challenges. So to be part of that agenda and then the ability to take the learnings from each of the DMOs and apply them to others where successes have happened is really great.

Jules Ozbek:

But, what that diversity has allowed us to do over the years is when one of the businesses isn't performing, others are because they're spread in different cities. If one city is having a bad time, then the other parts of the country tend to be doing well. We've got an outdoor attraction in Wales. So, sunny days are great for that, whereas rainy days are better for some of our indoor attractions. So it's really allowed us to spread the risk and the load both geographically and in terms of product as well. So that's great.

Jules Ozbek:

And then, the diversity of each of the attractions is really lovely. We go from an outdoor adventure park in North Wales to, like you said, York's Chocolate Story in York. But the thing I love about them is that they all have a purpose. They're all brands with purpose. They're not manufactured. They celebrate either the history and heritage of the city that they reside or they tell a story. Even somewhere like Greenwood was built because Steve Bristow, who was the original owner, wanted to conserve the environment and educate children about nature, and the park is still run with very strong green credentials. We harvest our own rainwater, the rollercoaster is people-powered. So the authenticity of each of our attractions means a lot to me. And I think especially now as consumers are becoming more savvy, they're looking to engage with brands that do have a purpose.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah. You've just talked so passionately about those attractions. You could see the smile on your face as you were talking about them. I guess today, I really want to look at the road ahead for the attractions and what it means now they're opening. But I guess to do that, we've got to go backwards. So I wondered if you could share what it was like hearing the news that all those places that you love are suddenly going to have to close, and no idea when they're going to reopen again.

Jules Ozbek:

Yeah. Fortunately, we'd got well ahead of the curve and I hate that turn of phrase. We were ahead of the game, if you like, in that we'd been planning for it from probably February. We'd been talking about it within our business of "What if? What if? What it?" And monitoring it daily. But then when that Wednesday... Was it a Wednesday or Friday?... Came, it was devastating to know that we're going to have to shut down. And it's something that's never happened before. We've never been positioned where we're closing our attractions indefinitely. So it was devastating, and fortunately, the furlough scheme was an absolute godsend in that we didn't have to make those mass redundancies at that point. But to see these places that are full of fun and entertainment and are so dynamic to close that door was, it was really tough. Really tough.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah. I can imagine. We've seen it with our own clients.

Jules Ozbek:

Yeah. We immediately went into, "Right, what's the plan to reopen?" So there was no, "Woe is us. This is devastating. This is awful." We were really proactive about saying, "When are we likely to reopen?" And we pretty much modeled to reopen on the 29th of June and we were a week out.

Kelly Molson:

Great.

Jules Ozbek:

So throughout those three to four months, we were full steam ahead daily. We put in plans as a management team. So there's five of us on the leadership team, and we spend an hour, every lunchtime, 12 to one every day via Zoom, talking to each other. And I think that was really useful in keeping abreast of what was happening and planning daily, changing our minds daily, moving forward daily to get us to a point where we could open our doors.

Kelly Molson:

Brilliant. I'm so glad that you're all open. It's really good to see. It's such a positive thing for the industry. Obviously, there was so much work to do whilst you were closed in terms of planning for reopening. That's a huge task in itself, but how have you approached marketing the attractions throughout that time? And maybe, how did you keep in touch with your existing audience? Because I'm sure you've got incredibly loyal fans that come back over and over again.

Jules Ozbek:

We have. Our repeat visit market is quite low actually. We reside in places where it's a day trip market or a holiday market. So we don't get huge amounts of repeat visitors, but because our subject matter is really rich, we do have a loyal social engagement or following. We planned really early, before we closed. We got all the marketeers around and said, "Right, okay guys. What does three months' worth of content look like?" And we captured a lot of it up front, and we did a lot of scheduling before the guys all went into furlough. So we had this constant drip of two or three engagements every week across all the portfolio, that were either entertaining or enriching or told a fact or story about the attraction that you might not know. And some of it was just for fun as well.

Jules Ozbek:

So we kept that momentum going, which I think has done us really well. It's stood us in really good stead. We were also really keen to talk to the media about what it means to close, what reopening looks like, what safety measures we're putting in place to be open. So there's a B2B side of it, and the B2C side.

Jules Ozbek:

And then all along, we've had to review our marketing budgets. What do they look like moving forward? And how do we get, really cost-effectively, in front of people in the short term? Because it is going to be short term. We've got six weeks to really capitalize on volume before we go back into a shoulder season. And my strategy has been, how do we do it most cost-effectively? Let's look at our social channels, let's get those backup or boosting a lot of the activity.

Jules Ozbek:

We've had really great success with PPC and digital retargeting as well as basket abandonment activity. So our digital is performing really well for us. We went through our websites and made sure they were fit for purpose and that the user experience on them was really easy as well.

Jules Ozbek:

And we've also engaged a lot with OTAs. I don't want to use discounts on platforms because whilst it might be a quick fix and a sticking plaster, I think in the longterm, it's not where we need to be. I think we need to just get through this season. So very much looked at the online ticket agents who can reach the mass market for us at a percentage that's not going to cost us anything other than a little bit on the yield. So really utilizing those to good effect, as well as PR. But in terms of traditional-type advertising, I think that's to be on the back burner till next year.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah, for sure. It's difficult, isn't it? With that capped capacity that you'll have, and almost that level of uncertainty still about how nervous people are about coming back to indoor attractions specifically.

Jules Ozbek:

Sure.

Kelly Molson:

We've seen huge demand for outdoor zoos and wildlife parks, but with the indoor there still that, I think the BVA BDRC, they've been doing a weekly report, tracking the consumer sentiment of the impact of COVID. And I think it says, "Despite the indoor attractions being able to open, there's still an average lead time of around about four months," which seems huge. And like you say, that then takes you into your slightly quieter season, so you can't really get the impact that you need.

Jules Ozbek:

Yeah.

Kelly Molson:

What's the uptake of some of the attractions been so far? Have you been pleased with what you've seen?

Jules Ozbek:

I was really pleasantly surprised to see York's Chocolate Story perform really well over Saturday and Sunday. What we've seen is that the booking lead time is a lot shorter than we've seen ever. Obviously, people are making decisions the day before, or even on the morning to come and visit us. I was pleasantly surprised to see the numbers coming through the door and also, the available spend in the retail area. The spend per head was above where we expected it to be, which was really pleasing.

Jules Ozbek:

The most pleasing thing for me was that everybody enjoyed their experience. So they came and they felt looked after, they knew we had the right safety measures in place. So whilst the attraction has been sanitized, the experience hasn't, and there's still a richness to the experience. They're still able to engage with that story and take something away from it, and be entertained and have some fun. And gosh, we've not had that ability other than tuning into Netflix for the last four months. And I think the thing that we do really well is we tell a really good story, but that rare commodity of being told by a human being, that human interaction that we deliver across all of our attractions, I think is really rare as we move into an ever more digital landscape. So I think people have really enjoyed that. And who doesn't want chocolate? So that's always a win.

Jules Ozbek:

Oxford Castle & Prison have done okay, as have Spinnaker Tower and the two non-UK sites, so Greenwood in Wales, and Mary King's in Scotland will open it on the 18th. They're a little bit behind. So we'll wait and see what they bring as well. But I'm optimistic. I think there is a demand. I think people are looking to get out of the house and do things, and I think we have delivered an experience that is manageable and controlled within this landscape that we find ourselves in.

Kelly Molson:

It's a really positive to hear. I love that phrase that you used as well. I've heard that a few times recently about sanitizing the site, but not the experience. So I think you're so right. And the feedback that you'll be getting now and the testimonials that you'll be getting now from the visitors, that's the important thing. That's what really matters and that's what's going to drive more people to come.

Kelly Molson:

You talked a little bit about digital there. Did you have to implement anything prior to opening that you didn't already have in place?

Jules Ozbek:

Yeah. Our summer periods, a lot of our attractions run at capacity, so we've had to rebuild all of our ticketing system, all of our backend to reflect the opening times and also the time slots, so rather than running every 15 minutes, they know we're running every half hour. So there was a lot of infrastructure build that had to go on behind the scenes. The website's needed adjusting, et cetera.

Jules Ozbek:

But that's been it really, other than a lot of hard work going on with our operations team at attraction level to make sure that, we spent a long time looking at how we could make this work, what does it look like? What does it feel like? Does the experience still feel rich enough? Is it still good enough if we do this, this and the other? Or actually, if we go too far in that direction, that really does take a little bit away from it. So let's bring it back.

Jules Ozbek:

And then we had our audits last week and the week before, and they came out really well. We didn't think we'd be able to do the lolly and chocolate making that you'd do at York's Chocolate Story, but actually, the auditors said that that'd be okay. So that's a great bit of a product that we could put back in. So I think operationally, we've done a lot, digitally, other than a lot of just annoying administration of having to rebuild stuff.

Kelly Molson:

Yes. I hear your pain. I've been on the build side, so I know exactly how you feel. It's just been so much work all round for everybody.

Jules Ozbek:

And we have asked people to pre-book in advance as well. That just makes our lives easier, both operationally, but also we know what we're dealing with rather than just people walking up off the streets.

Kelly Molson:

Do you think that's something that you'll continue as well?

Jules Ozbek:

I don't know. We do a lot of our attractions do rely on, on walk-up trade. If you look at Spinnaker Tower, it's the biggest advert it could possibly be. This huge tower coming out the landscape of the South Coast. So to say that we're not going to take walk-ups, I think would cut a huge amount of our market. Especially again, places like Edinburgh, where if they're wandering the city and people are looking for things to do, and I happen upon us, I'd hate to be turning people away. So, no, I don't think we'll get to that point. I think we'll still open our doors and welcome people in with open arms.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah. So we saw you speak last year at the Annual National Conference of Visitor Attractions, last October. It was brilliant. You talked a lot about the subject of marketing segmentation, and I think one of the quotes was that, "Demographics are no longer as reliable as the boundaries between them are blurring." And I really appreciated your talk because sometimes you get put in a box and I sometimes don't necessarily fit that box. I'm a 40-year-old woman, actually, I don't have children. So where do I fit when it comes to attractions? And it really stuck in my head. How have you implemented your segmentation so that it's not demographic driven? And is this something that is going to have to change post-COVID?

Jules Ozbek:

Yeah. It's really good question, which I've thought a lot about recently. We use a segmentation across all areas of the business. So I was really keen when we brought this in that it wasn't just a marketing tool, but actually, we used it in our business planning, we used it in our buying for retail, we used it in our offer of our F&B and of the business planning process in terms of product development as well.

Jules Ozbek:

And I was also determined that we weren't going to put people into boxes of, "You are a 40 something person, therefore you'll be married and therefore you'll have 2.4 children, and you'll probably have about this much disposable income." It doesn't work anymore. I was more interested in people's motivations and behaviors. So what's motivating them to leave the house? How do they want to spend their leisure time? And boxing people up in that way, rather than, "You're X-age female from blah, therefore, this is what this all means." Actually, age and the way people behave is blurring, and therefore, what I was really interested in is people's motivations and behaviors for wanting to leave the house and spend their leisure time. And the research that we did was really interesting. It talked about the main motivator for leaving the house and then how we segment that up into different sections.

Jules Ozbek:

So how do we use it? We use it really well, especially with somewhere like, and I'll use York's Chocolate Story again, by way of example, in that we have this beautiful product that tells this beautiful story, that celebrates the history and heritage of confectionery and chocolate making in York. And actually, the way that we sell that to different people is really interesting. So it's great for a family market in that we can sell it as enrichment for your children. It'd be fun for all the family. You can take part in the fun with your children, rather than having to be the fun maker, if you like. But also similarly for a couple, no matter what age that might be on holiday in York, it's a great way to spend an hour learning about the city that you're in.

Jules Ozbek:

And then our contemporary socialite segment that we use is people that are looking for the unique, so that they can then own that story and go and tell it themselves. So we've used it really cleverly about hitting different markets and telling different stories and spins on very much the same product, ultimately, what they will want to take away from that experience.

Kelly Molson:

I love that. It's so refreshing to see this approach. I've not experienced that with any other kind of people that I've been speaking to about this topic.

Jules Ozbek:

And we do tend to pigeon hole. And like I said, I was just determined. I fit very much into two different of our segments. I've got two wonderful stepchildren, so with my family head-on, I fit very much into this segment. My motivation is how do we all go and have fun as a family? And I'm determined that they engage with quality products that they learn something. Yeah, so they're not just filling their faces full of sugar and going mad for a few hours.

Jules Ozbek:

But then also, when we don't have them, I very much fall into one of our very different segments, which is that contemporary socialite one that looks at I want unique, I'm looking for the adventure. I'm looking for something different. I don't mind paying a little bit more for something that's really different. So I find myself switching between the two. But again, it's not about the fact that I'm a 39-year-old woman that does this, this and this. It's, what's my motivation for leaving the house today? And I think that's been the difference. And we've seen some really good success off the back of it.

Kelly Molson:

It feels like that won't change post-COVID then, because that's the strategy that you work with.

Jules Ozbek:

I've been looking at kind of putting this veil over the top of our segments, which is the COVID veil. And what does that mean to each of our segments at the minute? Well, some of them will be more resilient to others. Others will be a little more uncertain about leaving the house. I was looking at some data the other day that says millenniums are going to be the most resilient. They've lived through a recession. And I'm going to use the younger demographic, they're just in their attitudes and behaviors, more resilient to things than perhaps different segments. So we've looked at that in terms of our marketing and thought, how do we get in front of these guys? How do we show them that we can start a really great time? So I've just overlaid our segmentation and our marketing with tissue paper that I'll hopefully be able to whip away very soon.

Kelly Molson:

I've got this vision in my head of this COVID cloak,

Jules Ozbek:

Yeah.

Kelly Molson:

...which is gray and miserable, covering everything. And soon, we'll be able to tear it apart.

Jules Ozbek:

Tear it away. Yeah.

Kelly Molson:

I love this. So what does the next few months look like? The question is what does it look like for the future of attractions? It's a big question and a tough one to answer.

Jules Ozbek:

Sure. There's something that we've been wrestling with recently, which is we've had to limit the amount of people that we can put through our attractions, so there's going to be limited supply. What does that mean for demand? You look at basic economics where how do those things pan out? We've made a really conscious decision to hold our price. We haven't discounted our attractions because we know their quality, we know we offer great experience. It is costing us more to operate than at the minute, but there is limited demand. So hopefully, when people start moving around again in the next six weeks, when the summer holidays come, we'll see people coming through our doors.

Jules Ozbek:

And I do believe that people will start moving around as soon as the summer holidays break. You've just got to look at booking trends for some of the big holiday areas. And we're seeing an influx, especially into places like North Wales, Cornwall, Scotland, et cetera. So I'm hopeful that we will be able to capitalize as much as we can during the next six weeks. We've got experiences that can operate pretty safely and pretty COVID compliant. And I think we've proved that over the last weekend. So fingers crossed, we see people returning to us over the next six weeks.

Jules Ozbek:

And then as we go back into that shoulder season of September and the beginning of October, we're really going to have to look at the days in which we're operating I think, and see whether we can still operate seven days a week, whether we need to cut that down.

Jules Ozbek:

Next big opportunity will be October half term. And then our Christmas offering. Quiet January, February, and then I'm hoping we're back to somewhere near at least 70, 80% of our normal operating by next Easter.

Kelly Molson:

That feel about right, doesn't it, in terms of-

Jules Ozbek:

That's what I'm really holding out for. I think it'll be really interesting to see what happens with the international market over the summer, but also over the autumn as well. If things aren't as bad and people are flying and they've missed that on their summer holidays, will there be an opportunity for long weekend breaks during the September time? So I'm really interested to see what happens then. And in consumer confidence, as soon as people start flying again, it'll naturally snowball if it goes well. So we'll see what happens there.

Jules Ozbek:

We took a lot of learnings from retail when they first started opening and watched that really carefully to see how they were operating, how consumers were behaving, et cetera. So the international market would be an interesting one and I hope we start to recover. But also, the opportunities around staycation. Our attractions do well during staycation. We're at that really lovely price point, we're not expensive were a really lovely treat type experience for an hour or two and a really great price point. So we tend to do well during times of recession and during a boom in the staycation market.

Kelly Molson:

Good. Sounds like there's lots of positives coming.

Jules Ozbek:

I hope so.

Kelly Molson:

I feel like we're on the cusp of it. We're coming to the end of the podcast. And I always like to ask our guests if there's a book that they'd recommend, that's helped shape their career in any way. So have you got a recommendation for us?

Jules Ozbek:

I've got two.

Kelly Molson:

There's always two.

Jules Ozbek:

Sorry.

Kelly Molson:

I give these away as gifts and you all keep blowing my marketing budget.

Jules Ozbek:

I've got two.

Kelly Molson:

Okay.

Jules Ozbek:

The first book, I read the Innocent Smoothie books years ago. Years and years ago. And I was completely inspired by these three chaps and their entrepreneurial style and how they set the tone of the way that brands spoke to consumers. And I can remember being just hugely inspired by them and also the culture of the business that they set. And I can remember thinking, I want to work in a business with that kind of culture, that's entrepreneurial, that's fun, that's not frightened to take risks, that's happy to push the boundaries a little bit. And I think that really set the tone for what I was for in the workplace. And I've chased that all of my career, I think. So that really shaped what I was looking for, and I think that the culture that I try and set within the marketing community that I work in.

Jules Ozbek:

We're never frightened to take risks, and I think that's something that my guys will hear all the time, "Let's try it. Let's see what happens. What's the worst that can happen?"

Kelly Molson:

Exactly.

Jules Ozbek:

Yeah. And if we get it wrong, what have we learned from it? That's probably worth more valuable to us than spending money on huge amounts of data and insights. So that really set a cultural tone for me. And then I read a couple of years ago, a book called Turn the Ship Around by Captain David Marquet, who was a US Submarine Captain who was given a submarine to mobilize within three months. He didn't know how to work it, and he had some very much rely and put his trust in his team to get them to a position where they could become ship worthy or could set sail. And again about culture, I'm all about people and culture. The way he went about doing that and really putting his trust into his team has inspired me as well.

Kelly Molson:

That is a great book choice, and I've not read that one as well, so that's going to go top of my list.

Kelly Molson:

If you would like to win a copy of these books, then head over to our Twitter account, Skip the Queue, and if you retweet this episode announcement with the comment, "I want Jules' books," then you'll be in with a chance of winning them.

Kelly Molson:

Jules, thank you so much. It has been an absolute pleasure to talk to you. I think there are many good things just about to happen, and it's been really lovely for you to come on and talk about the things that you've been doing and talk really openly and positively and share your experiences. So thank you so much.

Jules Ozbek:

No, it's been great. Thanks for having me.

Kelly Molson:

Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five-star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned. Skip the Queue is brought to you by 

Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions, that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website, rubbercheese.com/podcast.

Download The Visitor Attractions Website Survey Report - https://www.merac.co.uk/download-the-visitor-attractions-survey

We have launched our brand-new playbook: ‘The Retail Ready Guide to Going Beyond the Gift Shop’ — your go-to resource for building a successful e-commerce strategy that connects with your audience and drives sustainable growth.

Download your FREE copy here

Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is  Kelly Molson, MD of Rubber Cheese.

Download our free ebook The Ultimate Guide to Doubling Your Visitor Numbers

If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website rubbercheese.com/podcast
If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this episode.

Competition ends October 31st 2020. The winner will be contacted via Twitter.

Show references:

www.LeeCockerell.com

www.linkedin.com/in/leecockerell/

www.leecockerell.com/books

www.leecockerell.com/podcast/

www.leecockerell.com/courses/

Transcription:

Kelly Molson:

Welcome to Skip the Queue, a podcast for people working in or working with visitor attractions. I'm your host, Kelly Molson. Each episode, I speak with industry experts from the attractions world. These chats are fun, informative, and hopefully always interesting. If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue.

In today's episode, I speak with Lee Cockerell, former Executive Vice-president of Operations for the Walt Disney World Resort. We discuss day-to-day challenges running a large operation, the legendary Disney customer service, and Lee's biggest piece of advice to anyone operating a visitor attraction right now.

Kelly Molson:

So, Lee, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast.

Lee Cockerell:

Yeah, I'm happy to. We're missing all the UK people here in Florida.

Kelly Molson:

Oh, I know. We're really missing traveling as well. Everyone that I'm speaking to is really missing going to all the amazing places that we're not able to go to at the moment. So it's such a shame. It must be strange there, it must be really quiet for you in Florida.

Lee Cockerell:

It is. We don't even have much traffic, which is amazing. Yeah. It's very strange times.

Kelly Molson:

That's maybe not a bad thing, less traffic though. Less traffic, better weather apparently.

Lee Cockerell:

But there's no place to go. So that's the bigger problem.

Kelly Molson:

No, well look, we haven't spoken before and I normally like to find out a few things about you, personal things upfront. So I wondered if you'd mind answering a few icebreaker questions for me?

Lee Cockerell:

Yeah. Go ahead. Sure. No problem.

Kelly Molson:

Okay. So, Lee, do you prefer cats or dogs?

Lee Cockerell:

Well, I had a dog the whole time I was growing up from first grade until I left home and I loved that dog more than anything. We had a cat once too, but it was not as friendly as the dog, so I would have to go with dog.

Kelly Molson:

Okay. That's a good answer. That means that we can definitely be friends because I'm a dog person too. I've got one of them sitting down here on the floor next to me as we speak.

Lee Cockerell:

Oh, good.

Kelly Molson:

What's your hobby? What's your favorite hobby?

Lee Cockerell:

You know my hobby, I quit playing golf because I was so bad at it. I gave my golf clubs to my son because nobody claps when I play golf. So public speaking is kind of really my hobby because people clap and I'm a very insecure person, so I need that kind of feedback from people.

Kelly Molson:

Oh, I love that. That's very honest, Lee. Thank you. Okay. And so, tell me something, you are very good at many things, but tell me one thing that you're not very good at, apart from golf.

Lee Cockerell:

You know, I was in business for 42 years and I hate the finance department. So I always had to have a good finance person around me because somehow the numbers bored me and I never worked very hard to understand them. So I had somebody explain them to me every month.

Kelly Molson:

Lee, you sound so much like me. I think there's a lot of business people that do not like the numbers and they just need someone to take over that side of the things.

Lee Cockerell:

Yeah, exactly.

Kelly Molson:

Listen, I would love to just hear a little bit about your background and how you came to be the VP of Disney World. How did that come about?

Lee Cockerell:

I think it was magic. It's a miracle actually. I grew up in Oklahoma on a little farm. We were as poor as could be. We didn't even have indoor plumbing. And later on, we moved to the bigger city, and my mother was married five times. That's kind of interesting. She was a busy woman.

Kelly Molson:

Whoa.

Lee Cockerell:

I've been adopted twice. I got my name Cockerell when I was 16, by husband number four. So I'm already really screwed up. Then I got to go to college because the doctor had money, she started making better choices, but I didn't go to class. I just had fun and I flunked out and I went in the Army. When I got out of the Army, I went to the Washington Hilton in Washington, D.C. that's where John Hinckley shot President Reagan back in the eighties, coming out of the hotel.

Lee Cockerell:

I was a waiter there and I got into a management training program, and I worked for Hilton for eight years in Washington, Chicago, and New York City at the Waldorf, Los Angeles. I joined Marriott Hotels, worked for them for 17 years. Since I had focused on food and beverage, I became the vice-president of food and beverage operations for Marriott.

Lee Cockerell:

Then I got recruited by Disney in 1990 to go to France and open Disneyland Paris, which we did. Then I came back to Orlando in let's see, '93. I stayed there 13 years and I was in charge of all operations there. So I don't know how it happened. I think I had them fooled for all those years. People thought I knew what I was doing, but then I decided that nobody knows what they're doing so I was in good company.

Kelly Molson:

You absolutely are. What an amazing story. What an incredible story.

Lee Cockerell:

Yeah.

Kelly Molson:

When you were at Disney, I mean, this blows my mind anyway. So you led a team of 40,000 cast members and you were responsible for the operations of 20 resort hotels, four theme parks, two water parks, the shopping and entertainment village, and the sports and recreation complex. I mean, it's not like you had enough to juggle on a daily basis.

Lee Cockerell:

Yeah. I didn't have any idea what was going on, but I surrounded myself by incredible people. They knew what was going on and that's pretty much how I stay out of trouble, I get experts around me.

Kelly Molson:

That's the key is it, surround yourself with good people?

Lee Cockerell:

Absolutely.

Kelly Molson:

What was the biggest day-to-day challenge that you had when you were running such a large operation?

Lee Cockerell:

Getting everybody to behave themselves and be professional, and not do inappropriate things, and come to work on time. So basic human problems. People are always the problem. It's never anything else.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah. Yeah. I hear you. Whatever size your business is, that's always the challenge, isn't it?

Lee Cockerell:

Yeah. It's the only problem you'll have in your life are people.

Kelly Molson:

What about the customer service side? Because I mean, you wrote a great book on customer service called The Customer Rules, and in my eyes and in many people's eyes, Disney, they are just the best at customer service. They are the pinnacle of customer service in so many people's eyes. How do they keep the standards so constantly high?

Lee Cockerell:

Well, it's pretty simple and any of your listeners can do the same thing. It's a matter of, I would say we do three things better than anybody else. Number one, we hire better. We're very careful. We have high expectations for performance and we explain those to anybody that wants to work for the company so that there's no misunderstandings about being professional and doing your job the way we train you.

Lee Cockerell:

Second thing is training. We train you and test you and we enforce the training, and we're very serious about that. It's like we're putting on a show. It's just like on Broadway, you got to be able to do your job on the stage or you won't be on the stage. So we audition you. We train you. We rehearse you. Then we create a culture where I would say most people that work at Disney wake up in the morning and are excited to come to work because of the way we treat them, out of respecting them.

Lee Cockerell:

They have opportunity to get promoted. They have opportunity to get development and learn and move up and get promotions. And so, I always say, "Hire them right. Train them right, and treat them right, and it'll work just fine in any company." That's just one of the things I think the problem is, people get bored with the basics. They don't realize it's about people and there's no upside to not treating people really well.

Lee Cockerell:

I always tell people, "If you think there is, try it on your wife, and then you'll find out." And so, no upside, there's only a downside. So we're very respectful. We're very professional. We care about people having success. When they have that environment, they go out and take care of the guest because they want to, not because they have to. That's the difference, I think. When we want to do something, we just do it no matter what, if the boss is around or not. When people make us do things we only do it when somebody is watching you and we want it that way all the time. It's a pretty simple formula. That's how we think about it.

Kelly Molson:

I mean, that's so true, isn't it? So keep your team happy and then they keep your customers happy. Disney has a real ... I mean, I've been to Disney on a number of times and I love it. I told a story this morning on LinkedIn about visiting the Magic Kingdom for the first time when I was a 10-year-old girl and walking through the gates and walking down Main Street, U.S.A. and seeing Cinderella's castle and being just so blown away and in complete awe of the kind of the spectacle of it. But the thing that really makes that Disney experience is the people and it's the cast members. And so, I wondered what's the most elaborate thing that you've ever witnessed or seen in terms of customer service at Disney, for cast members really going out of their way to make people feel special?

Lee Cockerell:

Yeah, well, I saw it so often because it's not an unusual thing that cast members do things that you don't expect. I mean, after 9/11 we had one of our people that worked in the hotel, a bellman, give his car to a guest who needed to get back to New York and told him he'd pick it up later. There were no rental cars left. You couldn't fly out after 9/11. This guy said, "Hey, take my car. I'll come and get it later."

Lee Cockerell:

I mean, I see this all the time. I mean, a cast member, you lose your phone charger and they go to Walmart and get one for you. It's just an amazing thing. It's not because we train them to do that. We train them to take care of the guests. So we allow them to do whatever they decide is something that would be really appropriate and helpful to every customer. So if a little girl gets her dress wet or dirty or falls down, the cast member can give her a new dress, no [inaudible 00:10:15]. So they have authority, our people have authority to do the right thing.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah. You've empowered them to make their own decisions about the level of customer service and what they can do to help people.

Lee Cockerell:

Sure. I mean, if you hire the right people, you train them and you're very clear with your expectations, they'll do a great job. If you don't trust your people, then you've probably hired the wrong person or you personally have some kind of control problem. I always tell people, "Maybe you need to see a psychiatrist," but other than that, that's what we do. We expect people to do their job, not have to have somebody watching over them every minute, they're adults and your people are your brand. Let me tell you what, at the end of the day, your people are your brand.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah, I hear you.

Lee Cockerell:

It's always the people, the rides they know are going to be good, the attractions, the shows, but the people are so different and people compare from other places they've been. The comparison is why we are rated so high, we just are better.

Kelly Molson:

How do you think that with the COVID-19 situation, that we've all been part of, how do you think that Disney magic is going to be with the kind of safety precautions that Disney will have had to put in place now that they're starting to open up and people will be allowed to come back? Do you think it's going to change it at all?

Lee Cockerell:

Well, I think that's going to be an every different guest's point of view. I mean, it's going to be rough. It's going to be tough. I do worry about it because if you're comparing from your visit last year, it's going to be totally different and it's not going to be as individualized as it was before where your kids can get close to the characters on all those sites. So it's a worry, no question about it.

Lee Cockerell:

I think the attitude of the cast members will be great. I think Disney will do a good job of enforcing the safety policies, but yeah, it's an issue. Wearing a mask in July and August in Florida. It's so hot here now it's already a problem. So it's just a matter of what kind of attitude the guest has about understanding what's going on.

Lee Cockerell:

A lot of guests right now around the world are not being very cooperative. So I don't know, I hope it'll be fine. I think it'll be good when you're in the show and it's air-conditioned and you're watching it, or you're doing your rides, or in the evening when it gets cooler, but there's challenges and we've never been through anything this extreme. And so, it's hard to say, unless we'll just have to see, and I'm sure there'll be adjustments every day to policies, procedures, operating guidelines, rules, regulations, as we learn more. And so, I'm pretty glad I'm retired.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah. You've swerved that one.

Lee Cockerell:

Oh, yeah. Timing is everything.

Kelly Molson:

Well, yeah, definitely. I guess that that's a challenge for Disney as well, isn't it? Because all eyes are on them. So, you know, the world of attractions, I guess, looks at Disney to see how they do things and then follows. So there's a lot of people that are watching at the moment to see how they operate and what the guest experience is like.

Lee Cockerell:

Yeah, and the other problem is trying to get halfway productive. So many countries where there's blockage about people being able to come. A lot of people are older that grandparents used to come with their kids and their grandkids. If you're in the older age group, you're worried about getting this. And so, there's going to be multiple complications.

Lee Cockerell:

As I always say, "All they can do is do their best and just work through it and see where this thing ends up." It's really crazy right now around the world, actually, it's just too bad. But then there are Disney people who, God, they would fly to the Moon to go to Disney. So they may love it, the only thing I will say.

Kelly Molson:

No, but that's true, isn't it? Because Disney fans are really ... there are a big contingency of them that are really hardcore Disney fans and they'll go back over and over again. They've been on the rides, hundreds and hundreds of times.

Lee Cockerell:

Yeah.

Kelly Molson:

I can't see that that's going to deter them so much.

Lee Cockerell:

Oh no, it's not going to deter a lot of people. But on the other hand, Disney needs a lot of people to pay for all that overhead expenses. You know, if you've got one person or a hundred thousand at night, the fireworks cost the same amount. So keeping it safe, keeping it halfway profitable, keeping the guests happy, keeping the cast members safe, and making money, that's like a dilemma.

Kelly Molson:

So now you've taken ... Well, I mean, you say you've retired from Disney, but I mean, you haven't actually retired at all, have you? So you are public speaking. You're an author. You have a brilliant podcast, Creating Disney Magic, which I listen to frequently. What else is keeping you busy at the moment, Lee? Do you advise other attractions on operations and customer service?

Lee Cockerell:

Sure. I advise anybody who'll pay me. I tell people, "I know things you don't know and if you pay me I'll tell them to you." But I just have been working on a new product coming out in the next couple of weeks called Cockerell Academy. It'll start out with eight to 10 courses on leadership management, customer service, videos and audios for students who are trying to get in the workforce now. Advice for them. A course on decision making. A course on time management.

Lee Cockerell:

Those will all be rolling out where it's going to be a subscription, it'll be $249 a year for the access to the library. It'll be updated every month with more stuff, new stuff. I just did that because I've wanted to do it for a long time, but I always had a good excuse. I didn't have time. Now I don't have an excuse anymore.

Kelly Molson:

No, that's it. You've got all the time now.

Lee Cockerell:

Yeah, and I need to go up to my office and work so my wife doesn't leave me, you know? So this is how we figured it out.

Kelly Molson:

So with the fact that ... so you advise attractions, you advise, as you've said, anyone that pays you. I know that you work in other sectors as well, but if there was one piece of advice you could give to anyone who operates an attraction at the moment, what do you think that would be?

Lee Cockerell:

Well, the key to leadership in my mind and getting people feeling good about trusting you. Every job I had at Hilton, Marriott and Disney, I'm out in the operation, everybody knows me. They know I'm available. They know I will solve their problem. I will deal with their issue and they know I'll tell them the truth. I'll be like their mother, I might love them and tell him, I love them, but I might kick their rear end too if they don't do what they're supposed to do because I want them to be successful.

Lee Cockerell:

I think that's the problem with most organizations, they're not taking a personal interest in the training development of people and improving their self-confidence, their belief in themselves. I really focus on getting the people right. I don't really want to know how to run the ride. I could care less. I just focus on the people and then I know that they will do a great job.

Lee Cockerell:

So it goes back to this, anybody out there in business, hire them right, train them right. When you train people right they actually get that feeling that you care about them. You know, there's only two things parents worry about in the world, and if you apply these in business, you'll be successful.

Lee Cockerell:

Parents worry only about two things, safety and education. That's it. There's nothing else. So don't get confused, make it a safe place. I mean, emotionally too, not just physically. So a place where you're appreciated, your opinion counts, people care about you. Everybody wants to be in a place where they matter. That's all, that's what everybody wants. Your wife, your husband, your kid, everybody wants to matter.

Lee Cockerell:

Leaders can pay attention to that and make sure people know they matter. If you do that every day, you'll be amazed. Your productivity will go up 50%. Your turnover will go down. People will be nicer. They'll have less anxiety, less depression. I mean, create an environment and a culture where people wake up in the morning want to come to work, not have to come.

Kelly Molson:

Great advice. I think we all want that.

Lee Cockerell:

Yeah. I mean, it's basics. This is the basics in life. It's not hard. Your mother taught you this already.

Kelly Molson:

She did. It's very true. She's a clever woman, my mum.

Lee Cockerell:

Of course.

Kelly Molson:

But that's right, isn't it? A lot of people don't focus on the basics and then that's where they make the mistakes.

Lee Cockerell:

Exactly. That's why all these politicians are getting in trouble. They did not focus on 100% safety. When people don't feel safe, they don't trust you, and when they don't trust you, they won't do what you tell them to do. You know, trust is the number one thing in the world. You know who you trust. It's probably very few people. You probably trust your mom, maybe your dad, your grandmother, but think of all the people that have let you down, or they don't do what they're supposed to do. It's unbelievable. I work hard always to make sure people trust me, and if they trust me, they'll do anything I want them to do and I'll do anything for them, and the next thing you know we are happily married.

Kelly Molson:

How do you build that trust? How did you build that trust when you had so many people that you were managing? I mean, I have a small team. There's six of us. We all trust each other, but we're all together a lot of the time. So how do you build that trust when there's 40,000 cast members that you need to build that with?

Lee Cockerell:

Well, first I scheduled a lot of time out in the operations every week, walking, talking to the cast members, checking in. My calendar put me out on the face-to-face with people. I published a newsletter every Friday, encouraging people, telling them what my expectations were, what I needed them to do. Today, I would do a podcast for every employee, like this. They would be hearing this every Friday for five or six, seven minutes.

Lee Cockerell:

They knew that my reputation was that anybody who wants to see me can come and see me. When I started, that the manager started doing it because they didn't want their people coming to see me. So they started taking care of the problems. I got a reputation for being somebody that followed through. I had a confidential voicemail. People could leave me a message about something that needed to be fixed or was being ignored or wasn't safe, or their manager was doing something inappropriate. All of our executives had that.

Lee Cockerell:

So I had many, many ways to make sure I knew the truth. Second, that when I learned the truth, that I took care of it and made it right. So over time, even if I've never met with people, they had heard about me. Other employees had told them, other cast members told them, "Hey, you can trust Lee. He's on top of this." All of a sudden your reputation grows because people say good things about you behind your back, not the kinds of things most people say about their manager.

Lee Cockerell:

Somebody says, "You want to be trusted, you've got to be trustworthy." That's it, you know? You got to do the right thing even if it's hard. A lot of people don't want to do the hard thing, they want to do easy things because hard things are hard. I tell people, "If you can't make hard decisions and you can't have hard conversations with people, don't have children and don't be a leader."

Kelly Molson:

Good advice.

Lee Cockerell:

That's all you do. That's your life.

Kelly Molson:

I love that you do a podcast with your team now. I love that you've embraced technology and that would be the way that you'd keep in touch with everyone. That's great.

Lee Cockerell:

Hey, I'm on TikTok every morning.

Kelly Molson:

Even I'm not on TikTok. You're way ahead of me.

Lee Cockerell:

I know, you know why you should be? You'll understand the young people like a thousand times better.

Kelly Molson:

I'm sorry.

Lee Cockerell:

It's a little scary.

Kelly Molson:

It is a bit scary.

Lee Cockerell:

But I give them messages every morning and I'm slowly getting people's writing me say, "Oh, I liked it." I only do 30 seconds, maybe a minute. There are a lot of videos on there about police brutality and all. I've been recommending to police chiefs and enforcement, start watching TikTok and you'll see the attitude of young people around the world. You need to understand where they're coming from and you don't because you're too isolated. And so, I'm on all the social sites every day.

Kelly Molson:

I love that. Do you know what? I'm going to download TikTok tonight and I'm going to follow you. You're going to be my first follower, Lee.

Lee Cockerell:

Like now, I gave advice yesterday for everybody to vote and get Trump out of office.

Kelly Molson:

Whoa. Okay.

Lee Cockerell:

Because the young people don't like this and they're the ones. There's going to be four million people turn 18 before the election to vote. And so, I can reach them that way.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah. That's good. It's good that you're using your platform for good, Lee.

Lee Cockerell:

Yeah, I am. Also, I'm promoting my work. So you got to be out there and it changes, you know, you got to really be on top of watching where people are getting their information. If you're on Facebook, like I am, you're getting people that are about to die anyway. So I mean, LinkedIn is great, professional. I did a post the other day about something, I've had over 20,000 views on it.

Kelly Molson:

Wow.

Lee Cockerell:

That sells books. That sell speeches. That gets me be known who I am. And so, each one has a different audience and you got to stay on top of that because it's changing rapidly.

Kelly Molson:

Yes.

Lee Cockerell:

You know, right now the US government's trying to stop TikTok because that's owned by the Chinese. As soon as they do, somebody else will open another one. You can't stop it. People are going to give their opinion.

Kelly Molson:

No, you can't stop free speech, Lee, for sure.

Lee Cockerell:

Yeah.

Kelly Molson:

What I'd like to do is ask you ... well, actually I've got two more questions to ask you. One I'm not sure about, because I spoke to a friend just before I came on here and he wanted me to ask you this and I don't actually know if you like rides, but he's asked, "If you could only go to one Disney park in the whole world and ride one ride, what would it be and why?"

Lee Cockerell:

It's not so much the rides for me, but I like to go to Epcot around four o'clock in the afternoon. After it's starting to get a little cooler, I like to go to the French pavilion, the UK pavilion. My wife loves to go to the UK pavilion and shop, and French pavilion for perfume. Then around 5:00 or 5:30, we have a little cocktail, and then we have dinner at one of the pavilions. Then we watch the fireworks and go home. So we're there for like four hours and one of them were five hours. That's my favorite thing to do. Rides, you know, they're okay. I mean, I've been on all of them so many times, the Rock 'n' Roller Coaster, I kind of like it.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah, that's my favorite one. That's my favorite one. I love that.

Lee Cockerell:

I think that's incredible and it goes off at a million miles an hour. So yeah, that's fun. I've been on every ride so many times because when my grandkids were growing up they lived in Orlando, the three of them, and I used to take them all the time.

Kelly Molson:

Oh, that must have been an amazing experience to share that with them.

Lee Cockerell:

Well, I had to ride the rides they liked, not the ones I liked.

Kelly Molson:

Did they like a Small World though? Because that's a bit repetitive, isn't it?

Lee Cockerell:

I think they might have until they could speak, talk, listen and talk. I don't think so. No, not really. They like Buzz Lightyear.

Kelly Molson:

Okay. Good choices. Well, look, Lee, we're coming to the end of the podcast and I really want to ask you the last question and it's, is there a book that you recommend that's helped shaped your career in any way?

Lee Cockerell:

Oh yeah. You know, I was not a big reader when I got out of school. I personally learn best by doing, so experience is a big deal to me. Then one day I started reading and I found out, "Wow, I'm learning a lot here." Reading, looking at websites, reading the newspaper every day. But I would say one that struck me was The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People by Stephen Covey.

Kelly Molson:

Yeah.

Lee Cockerell:

Because it was very basic and it's all focused on people. I started thinking about my own behavior, my own communication, my own reaction to things, and that book helped me a lot. I've had it on my desk for, oh God, I think it came out in '89 and that's 30, 31 years ago. So yeah, that had an impact. I read now every day. I read a lot. And so, there's so much to learn and to understand, and if you don't read, you're probably not going to get the truth because half the people in the world don't know the truth. All they know are rumors or what their parents told them. I tell people, "Half to stuff in your brain's not even true, so be careful."

Kelly Molson:

Well, I mean, that's a great book recommendation. Just remember listeners, we always give away a copy of the book recommendation from our guest. So if you would like to win a copy of this book, then just head over to our Twitter account that's Skip the Queue and retweet this episode announcement with the comment, "I want Lee's book," and you will be in a chance of winning it.

Kelly Molson:

Lee, thank you so much for being on today. It's been such a pleasure to speak to you. I have been so excited about this all week. It's been brilliant to hear about your leadership skills and customer service experience. And so, thank you.

Lee Cockerell:

Okay. I'm going to work on Congress here. You work on parliament and we'll try to straighten out the world.

Kelly Molson:

Tag team, Lee. We've got it covered between the two of us, for sure.

Kelly Molson:

Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five-star review. It really helps others find us. Remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned. Skip the Queue is brought to you by

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