Smarter Marketer

When the pressure for short-term results keeps getting louder, how and why should you still emphasise creativity?

In this episode of the Smarter Marketer Podcast, James Lawrence sits down with Jules Hall, CEO and Founder of The Hallway, to unpack how creativity, data and commercial thinking need to work together if brands want sustainable growth. From navigating short-termism and AI hype to building credibility with CFOs and boards, Jules shares a grounded, practical view on what effective marketing leadership looks like today, and what it takes to earn the licence to do truly great creative work.

Watch Cardboard Cake - The Hallway’s Cannes Lion-winning ad

B Corp - Fat Cats

1. Why creativity isn’t at odds with commercial rigour, and why “trust me” no longer cuts it
2. How the best marketers link brand investment to real business outcomes
3. What AI is actually useful for inside agencies (and where humans still win)
4. Why short-term pressure is holding marketing back and how leaders can balance both
5. How to “market marketing” internally and earn trust across the business
6. What the Webjet rebrand reveals about modern brand growth and measurement
7. Why relevance to culture still matters, even in a fragmented media landscape

Jules Hall is the CEO and Founder of The Hallway, one of Australia’s most awarded independent creative agencies. Since founding the agency in 2007, Jules has led work for brands including Google, Suncorp Bank, BINGE and Webjet, and helped The Hallway earn honours such as B&T Independent Agency of the Year and Campaign Asia Independent Agency of the Year. In 2024, Jules and his team won a Cannes Lion for design - a standout achievement for an Australian independent agency.

You can follow Jules on LinkedIn.

1. James Lawrence LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jameslawrenceoz/
2. Smarter Marketer Website: https://rocketagency.com.au/smarter-marketer-podcast
3. Rocket Agency Website: https://rocketagency.com.au/
4. Rocket Agency LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/rocket-agency-pty-ltd/

1. Hardcover: https://amzn.to/30O63kg
2. Kindle: https://amzn.to/2ZqfCWm

This is the definitive podcast for Australian marketers. Join Rocket Agency Co-Founder and best-selling author, James Lawrence in conversation with marketers, leaders, and thinkers about what it takes to be a smarter and more successful marketer.

What makes people say "yes"? Rocket Agency’s Co-Founder James Lawrence sits down with Dr. Robert Cialdini, the godfather of influence and the world’s foremost authority on the psychology of persuasion, to talk about the timeless principles behind his work, his seventh principle of influence - Unity - and how AI, ethics and empathy are shaping persuasion in modern marketing.

• Origin story: How Dr. Cialdini went “undercover” in multiple industries to discover the universal principles of influence
• A walkthrough of the original six principles - Reciprocity, Scarcity, Authority, Consistency, Liking and Social Proof
• The 7th principle - Unity: Why bonds formed by shared identity matter today
• The importance of ethics: Why marketers should use persuasion techniques truthfully and responsibly
• Influence vs cultural differences: How different regions (e.g., Australia, Asia, Scandinavia) prioritise different principles of influence
• The rise of AI: How marketers are using AI to apply Cialdini’s principles
• The science of “pre-suasion” and how setting context before your message boosts effectiveness
• Real-world examples of effective use of influence and persuasion from brands like Avis, L’Oreal and Best Buy

Dr. Robert Cialdini is a globally renowned psychologist and the bestselling author of Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion, Pre-Suasion, and Yes!. His groundbreaking research on why people say 'yes' has shaped the way professionals across marketing, sales, leadership and behavioral science approach persuasion. 

He is often referred to as the godfather of influence, and his principles of influence drive ethical influence strategies today.

• James Lawrence LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jameslawrenceoz/ 
• Smarter Marketer Website: https://rocketagency.com.au/smarter-marketer-podcast 
• Rocket Agency Website: https://rocketagency.com.au/ 
• Rocket Agency LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/rocket-agency-pty-ltd/

• Hardcover: https://amzn.to/30O63kg 
• Kindle: https://amzn.to/2ZqfCWm 

This is the definitive podcast for Australian marketers. Join Rocket Agency Co-Founder and best-selling author, James Lawrence in conversation with marketers, leaders, and thinkers about what it takes to be a smarter and more successful marketer.

In marketing, deadlines are relentless and expectations are high. It’s critical to manage stress and make clear-headed decisions under pressure. In this episode of Smarter Marketer, host James Lawrence chats with Dr. Jemma King - founder of BioPsychAnalytics and expert in stress, resilience and high performance. 

Having worked with elite organisations like the Australian Olympic Swim Team, the Australian Defence Force, McKinsey and Atlassian, Dr.King shares science-backed insights on managing burnout, improving decision-making and optimising sleep for peak performance. Whether you're leading a team, juggling campaigns, or striving for balance in your personal life, this episode will equip you with practical strategies to navigate the pressures of marketing.

• Dr. Jemma King’s journey - How she became a leading expert in stress research and high-performance psychology.
• Why marketers are under pressure And the need to manage stress for long-term success
• Science-backed strategies to reduce stress and prevent burnout – Practical techniques used by elite athletes, military personnel and corporate leaders to stay resilient
• The role of sleep in peak performance - How sleep quality directly impacts decision-making, creativity and overall health.
• Actionable tips to improve sleep for better health:

1. How to measure sleep quality and its effects on energy and performance.
2. The hidden impact of alcohol on sleep cycles and cognitive function.
3. Simple ways to eliminate sleep-disrupting distractions.
4. How dim lighting before bedtime signals your brain to relax.
5. The science behind a 40-degree hot bath as a sleep aid.
6. How cutting back on sugar can significantly improve sleep quality.

• Beyond sleep: The next most powerful factors in resilience - regular exercise, a balanced diet, meaningful relationships, fulfilling work and financial stability.
• Tactical ways to build a stress-resilient life by structuring your day, improving your work environment and developing a low-stress mindset.
• Decision-making under pressure – How to maintain a clear, strategic mindset in high-stakes situations.
• Emotional intelligence & AI – The evolving role of AI in helping professionals improve emotional intelligence and make better, more rational decisions.

Dr. Jemma King PhD is the founder of BioPsychAnalytics, a consultancy that helps companies, teams and individuals reduce stress, avoid burnout and make better decisions under pressure. She focuses on practical strategies to improve team performance and well-being in high-stress environments.

Jemma has worked with organisations like the Australian Olympic Swim Team, the Australian Defence Force, McKinsey and Atlassian, among others.

James Lawrence LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jameslawrenceoz/ 

Smarter Marketer Website: https://rocketagency.com.au/smarter-marketer-podcast

Rocket Agency Website: https://rocketagency.com.au/ 

Rocket Agency LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/rocket-agency-pty-ltd/

Hardcover: https://amzn.to/30O63kg 

Kindle: https://amzn.to/2ZqfCWm 

This is the definitive podcast for Australian marketers. Join Rocket Agency Co-Founder and best-selling author, James Lawrence in conversation with marketers, leaders, and thinkers about what it takes to be a smarter and more successful marketer.

In marketing, there exists a fine line between influencing decisions and crossing into manipulation. The difference? One builds trust while the other erodes it.

Host James Lawrence chats with Dan Monheit, Chief CX Thinker at Thinkerbell and former CEO of creative behavioural science agency HardHat, about applying behavioural science principles like default bias and anchoring to your marketing, related ethical considerations and how to draw the line between persuasion and manipulation.

• Dan’s journey - starting Hardhat and his interest in behavioural science
• Introduction to behavioural science and it’s connection to marketing
• What are some common behavioural biases you see everyday?

-Default bias

-Framing

-Anchoring

-Loss aversion

-Effort bias

• Ethics in persuasion vs manipulation
• Navigating dark patterns
• How context impacts perception and shapes biases
• Essential behavioural science resources for marketers

Dan Monheit is a leader in creative behavioural science. In 2005, he founded Hardhat, a pioneering agency that worked with top brands like Mattel, Bega Dairy, the Victorian Government, Kogan, DocuSign and Afterpay. Under his direction, Hardhat became a go-to agency for brands looking to understand and influence consumer behaviour.

In October 2024, Hardhat was acquired by Thinkerbell, where Dan now serves as Chief CX Thinker, applying his expertise to elevate customer experiences through a blend of creativity and behavioural insights.

James Lawrence LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jameslawrenceoz/ 

Smarter Marketer Website: https://rocketagency.com.au/smarter-marketer-podcast 

Rocket Agency Website: https://rocketagency.com.au/ 

Rocket Agency LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/rocket-agency-pty-ltd/

This is the definitive podcast for Australian marketers. Join Rocket Agency Co-Founder and best-selling author, James Lawrence in conversation with marketers, leaders, and thinkers about what it takes to be a smarter and more successful marketer.

As platforms push Performance Max, Advantage+ and new modelling systems, we’re entering a world where results often look better in-platform than they do in reality. Behind the scenes, attribution is becoming harder and marketers are being forced to rethink how they interpret success altogether.

In this episode of the Smarter Marketer Podcast, host James Lawrence sits down with Rocket’s Paid Media Manager, Adrian Oguz, to unpack what truly matters when you’re running paid media in an AI-driven landscape. Adrian shares an unfiltered view on automation, performance loops, the limits of attribution and how in-house marketers can step back and measure what actually drives growth, and not just what looks good on a dashboard.

• Why AI-driven campaign types often optimise toward the easiest conversions, not the most valuable ones
• How to recognise when Performance Max has fallen into the “existing customer loop”
• The hidden risks of lead-gen automation and why spam leads often spike before performance improves
• The simple macro metrics that reveal whether your media is genuinely growing the business
• How channels like YouTube can drive huge results without showing any conversions in-platform
• Why creative is becoming the new targeting, especially inside Meta’s evolving ecosystem
• How to design tests that prove whether a channel is actually contributing to growth
• When it’s time to scale spend, and when stability matters more than chasing the next tactic

Adrian Oguz is a Paid Media Manager at Rocket Agency, overseeing multi-million-dollar budgets across search, social and programmatic. With his clear, practical approach, he’s led multiple award-winning campaigns for various business types and industries across the APAC Search Awards and SEMrush Awards year after year.

You can follow Adrian on LinkedIn.

• James Lawrence LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jameslawrenceoz/ 
• Smarter Marketer Website: https://rocketagency.com.au/smarter-marketer-podcast 
• Rocket Agency Website: https://rocketagency.com.au/ 
• Rocket Agency LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/rocket-agency-pty-ltd/

• Hardcover: https://amzn.to/30O63kg 
• Kindle: https://amzn.to/2ZqfCWm 

This is the definitive podcast for Australian marketers. Join Rocket Agency Co-Founder and best-selling author, James Lawrence in conversation with marketers, leaders, and thinkers about what it takes to be a smarter and more successful marketer.

Marketers have long optimised for visibility and memory, but in our metric-focused industry, are we measuring what really matters?

In this episode of the Smarter Marketer Podcast, host James Lawrence speaks with Dr. Karen Nelson-Field, Founder of Amplified, about why attention is the real currency of modern advertising and how to measure it effectively. From the myth of virality to the flaws in CPMs, Karen shares what years of research reveal about how people truly engage with ads, and what marketers need to do next to stay ahead.

• Dr. Karen’s journey: from academic researcher to founder, shaping the global conversation on attention measurement
• Why traditional metrics like reach, impressions and engagement fail to capture real ad effectiveness
• How attention measurement works and why it’s revolutionising media planning and buying
• The difference between active, passive and non-attention, and how they impact ROI
• Why CPM should stand for “Cost per Meaningless Thousand”
• How creative and media need to work together for attention to truly convert
• Why cheaper ad formats often deliver worse ROI than expected
• The role of AI and synthetic audiences in scaling attention measurement
• The future: the unification of creative and media through AI-driven tools

Additional resource: The Eye-Watering Cost of Dull Media

Dr. Karen Nelson-Field is a globally recognised researcher and entrepreneur reshaping how marketers think about effectiveness. As the Founder and CEO of Amplified, she leads pioneering work in attention measurement across platforms and formats. A former academic turned industry innovator, Karen’s research has influenced how the world’s biggest brands evaluate advertising performance. 

• James Lawrence LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jameslawrenceoz/ 
• Smarter Marketer Website: https://rocketagency.com.au/smarter-marketer-podcast 
• Rocket Agency Website: https://rocketagency.com.au/ 
• Rocket Agency LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/rocket-agency-pty-ltd/

• Hardcover: https://amzn.to/30O63kg 
• Kindle: https://amzn.to/2ZqfCWm 

This is the definitive podcast for Australian marketers. Join Rocket Agency Co-Founder and best-selling author, James Lawrence in conversation with marketers, leaders, and thinkers about what it takes to be a smarter and more successful marketer.

As 2025 comes to a close, the conversation around in-housing has never been more confusing. With rising pressures on budgets and the disruption caused by AI, businesses are being forced to rethink what the right marketing structure might look like  for them.

In this episode of the Smarter Marketer Podcast, Host James Lawrence speaks with Darren Woolley, Founder and Global CEO of Australia’s leading marketing management consultancy TrinityP3. Together they unpack the myths surrounding in-housing and outsourcing, and what research really says about cost, culture, productivity and creativity.

• Why “in-housing vs. agency” is the wrong question to ask and what the right balance looks like
• The hidden costs that make many in-house teams more expensive than expected
• How in-house agencies can fall into creative myopia and how to bring external stimulus back in
• Why AI is more than just efficiency: accountability, smarter decision-making, strategic advantage and more
• The three challenges keeping marketers up at night: tighter budgets, proving ROI and keeping pace with change
• How agencies remain indispensable by offering perspective and speed that internal teams can’t easily replicate

Darren Woolley is considered a thought leader on all aspects of marketing management - a problem solver, negotiator, mentor, Founder & Global CEO of TrinityP3, industry commentator, podcaster and author. He is also an ex-chair of the Australian Marketing Institute, an ex-president of the Melbourne Advertising and Design Club, ex-medical scientist and ex-creative director.

You can follow Darren on LinkedIn.

• James Lawrence LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jameslawrenceoz/ 
• Smarter Marketer Website: https://rocketagency.com.au/smarter-marketer-podcast 
• Rocket Agency Website: https://rocketagency.com.au/ 
• Rocket Agency LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/rocket-agency-pty-ltd/

• Hardcover: https://amzn.to/30O63kg 
• Kindle: https://amzn.to/2ZqfCWm 

This is the definitive podcast for Australian marketers. Join Rocket Agency Co-Founder and best-selling author, James Lawrence in conversation with marketers, leaders, and thinkers about what it takes to be a smarter and more successful marketer.

Once thought of as a “traditional” channel, outdoor has once again become one of the most creative and technology-integrated mediums in modern marketing. As audiences move faster and attention gets harder to hold, out-of-home (OOH) continues to prove its staying power.

In this episode, James Lawrence sits down with Josh Gurgiel, Head of Creative at POLY (oOh!media’s content and innovation hub), to unpack how Australia’s largest OOH network is evolving, from the rise of digital formats and AI-driven creative to why simplicity and emotion still sit at the heart of every great campaign.

• Why OOH remains one of the most powerful full-funnel channels, and will continue to be
• The creative rules that separate great outdoor work from visual clutter
• How motion and real-time creative are reshaping outdoor storytelling
• Why consistency and context, not constant reinvention, drive long-term brand resonance
• How brands like Specsavers, McDonald’s and Bankwest are redefining what ‘public space art’ can be
• Why static and digital work best together, and what that means for campaign planning in 2026
• A look ahead: from immersive brand experiences to outdoor as cultural content

Josh Gurgiel is the Head of Creative at POLY, the content and creative innovation hub within oOh!media. With a career spanning creative direction, brand strategy and production, Josh leads the team shaping the next era of OOH innovation. His work with leading Australian and global brands continues to push the boundaries of how creativity, technology and data intersect in public space.

• James Lawrence LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jameslawrenceoz/ 
• Smarter Marketer Website: https://rocketagency.com.au/smarter-marketer-podcast 
• Rocket Agency Website: https://rocketagency.com.au/ 
• Rocket Agency LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/rocket-agency-pty-ltd/

• Hardcover: https://amzn.to/30O63kg 
• Kindle: https://amzn.to/2ZqfCWm 

This is the definitive podcast for Australian marketers. Join Rocket Agency Co-Founder and best-selling author, James Lawrence in conversation with marketers, leaders, and thinkers about what it takes to be a smarter and more successful marketer.

What does it really mean to lead marketing in 2025? In this episode of the Smarter Marketer Podcast, Host James Lawrence sits down with executive brand strategist Emma Logan to unpack the realities facing modern marketing leaders, from blurred job boundaries and rising stakeholder expectations to the personal toll of visibility and performance.

Emma shares why every senior marketer already has an “executive brand”, whether they’ve defined it or not, and how failing to own that narrative means letting others do it for you. Together, she and James explore what authentic leadership looks like in a post-pandemic world, how to navigate complexity without burning out, why connection and energy management are not just nice-to-haves and more.

• Emma’s journey - The story behind The Emma Logan Project
• Why every CMO needs an intentional executive brand and what happens if you don’t define it
• The growing complexity of the marketing role: from AI and capability gaps to shifting cultural expectations
• How trust, transparency and delivery underpin influence at the C-suite and board level
• Networking as a leadership superpower: the ROI of connection and community
• Why energy, recovery and self-awareness are becoming critical to sustainable leadership

Emma Logan has spent more than 15 years working across marketing and media in New Zealand, London and Australia, spanning client-side, agency, publisher and not-for-profit roles. She’s partnered with numerous leading brands and marketing talent, bringing a rare 360-degree perspective to the challenges facing today’s leaders.

Through The Emma Logan Project, she now runs a “marketer-focused consultancy,” helping CMOs and senior marketing leaders define who they are and how to amplify their impact across their teams and the wider industry.

• James Lawrence LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jameslawrenceoz/ 
• Smarter Marketer Website: https://rocketagency.com.au/smarter-marketer-podcast 
• Rocket Agency Website: https://rocketagency.com.au/ 
• Rocket Agency LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/rocket-agency-pty-ltd/

• Hardcover: https://amzn.to/30O63kg 
• Kindle: https://amzn.to/2ZqfCWm 

This is the definitive podcast for Australian marketers. Join Rocket Agency Co-Founder and best-selling author, James Lawrence in conversation with marketers, leaders, and thinkers about what it takes to be a smarter and more successful marketer.

For decades the agency-client relationship has worked on a transactional view of marketing and creative services. Agencies gave away their best thinking upfront, clients judged on surface-level ideas and both sides accepted a process that often undervalued expertise.

In this Smarter Marketer Podcast episode, Host James Lawrence and renowned author Blair Enns discuss how the future of creative and professional services lies in changing how we buy, sell and trust expertise. Whether you’re in-house or agency-side, these shifts carry big implications for how you choose partners and build lasting relationships that drive marketing success.

• Why traditional pitching often undervalues creative work and what it takes to break free from it
• How specialisation is the key to differentiation, growth and global reach
• What three-option proposals and value-based pricing reveal about how expertise should really be sold
• Why selling is less about the big presentation and more about a series of meaningful conversations
• How AI is fragmenting the market and empowering smaller, more specialised players
• What in-house marketers can do to unlock more value from their agency partners.

Blair Enns is the founder of Win Without Pitching, a sales training organisation for creative and professional services firms. He is the author of The Win Without Pitching Manifesto, Pricing Creativity and The Four Conversations: A New Model for Selling Expertise. Blair is also the co-host of the widely followed 2Bobs podcast.

James Lawrence LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jameslawrenceoz/ 

Smarter Marketer Website: https://rocketagency.com.au/smarter-marketer-podcast 

Rocket Agency Website: https://rocketagency.com.au/ 

Rocket Agency LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/rocket-agency-pty-ltd/

Hardcover: https://amzn.to/30O63kg 

Kindle: https://amzn.to/2ZqfCWm 

This is the definitive podcast for Australian marketers. Join Rocket Agency Co-Founder and best-selling author, James Lawrence in conversation with marketers, leaders, and thinkers about what it takes to be a smarter and more successful marketer.