Smarter Marketer

Ranking in ChatGPT is now one of the most urgent challenges in digital marketing. With millions of Australians using AI search every week, the question for in-house marketers isn’t whether ChatGPT is shaping buyer journeys anymore, it’s how to make sure your brand is visible where and when it matters most. 

In this episode of the Smarter Marketer Podcast, James Lawrence is joined by Rocket’s Head of SEO, Joe Alder, to unpack the latest research and share practical advice on what it really takes to rank in ChatGPT.

• Why traffic from ChatGPT converts at over 5x the rate of traditional search traffic, and what that means for marketers
• The two ways ChatGPT sources information, and how each affects your visibility
• The technical dos and don’ts that determine whether your site can be read by ChatGPT
• How to structure copy so it’s more likely to be cited in AI search
• The kinds of content that are consistently favoured in AI responses
• Why authority now means brand mentions, reviews, listicles and awards, not just backlinks
• The hard truth about measurement: why click-through rates from ChatGPT are so low, and what you can do to track your traffic from AI search

Joe Alder is the Head of SEO at Rocket Agency, leading all SEO services and projects. With over 8 years of experience, Joe has implemented complex SEO campaigns for B2C, B2B and government organisations, working with notable brands such as Amazon, Qudos, P&O Cruises, PE Nation, Fujitsu and Coates. 

Since the launch of ChatGPT, he and his team have been at the frontline of AI search optimisation - running first-hand tests across thousands of queries, analysing data from Australia’s top websites and guiding brands on how to adapt their SEO strategies for an AI-driven future.

James Lawrence LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jameslawrenceoz/ 

Smarter Marketer Website: https://rocketagency.com.au/smarter-marketer-podcast 

Rocket Agency Website: https://rocketagency.com.au/ 

Rocket Agency LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/rocket-agency-pty-ltd/

Hardcover: https://amzn.to/30O63kg 

Kindle: https://amzn.to/2ZqfCWm 

This is the definitive podcast for Australian marketers. Join Rocket Agency Co-Founder and best-selling author, James Lawrence in conversation with marketers, leaders, and thinkers about what it takes to be a smarter and more successful marketer.

As competition heats up across professional services, simply telling people what you do is no longer enough. The difference between winning and blending in ultimately comes down to perspective: how you see the world, not just what you sell. Too often, brands overlook this, falling back on cliche messaging in their industry that leaves buyers unmoved.

In this episode, James Lawrence (Co-Founder, Rocket Agency) welcomes back Alex James - one of Australia’s leading messaging strategists - to discuss what it takes to build a B2B messaging perspective that actually cuts through. If you’re leading in-house strategy, this conversation will reshape how you think about differentiation and help you find a standpoint your market won’t forget.

• Why rising competition has made differentiated messaging a necessity in B2B services
• The distinction between what you do, how you do it and why a strong perspective matters most
• The pitfalls of relying solely on frameworks like “purpose, vision, mission, values,”
• How to find and own a perspective that cuts through sameness by challenging the status quo
• Practical ways to involve leadership and non-marketing teams in building messaging that sticks
• Why speaking to your audience’s aspirations, not just pain points, attracts better-fit clients
• Common mistakes in B2B messaging to avoid, including the dangers of presenting as a vendor rather than a true expert partner
• The importance of living your perspective consistently across team culture and every client touchpoint

Alex James is a B2B messaging strategist and the founder of Minimalist Marketing Co, a Melbourne-based consultancy that works with B2B service firms across the US and Europe. Drawing on over a decade of experience and a journey that spans multiple marketing roles, viral TikToks and content that’s shaped entire client pipelines, Alex helps firms build standout perspectives that resonate with buyers.

James Lawrence LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jameslawrenceoz/ 

Smarter Marketer Website: https://rocketagency.com.au/smarter-marketer-podcast 

Rocket Agency Website: https://rocketagency.com.au/ 

Rocket Agency LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/rocket-agency-pty-ltd/

Hardcover: https://amzn.to/30O63kg 

Kindle: https://amzn.to/2ZqfCWm 

This is the definitive podcast for Australian marketers. Join Rocket Agency Co-Founder and best-selling author, James Lawrence in conversation with marketers, leaders, and thinkers about what it takes to be a smarter and more successful marketer.

Marketing in 2025 is being shaped by what some experts call a 'polycrisis' - disruption layered upon disruption. From global conflicts to inflation to AI-driven job shifts, the market conditions facing both brands and consumers are becoming more complex and unpredictable. For marketers, the challenge isn’t just keeping up; it’s finding ways to cut through the noise and still build for the long term.

In this episode of Smarter Marketer, Host James Lawrence (Co-Founder, Rocket Agency) speaks with Dan Robertson-Jones (Partner, Kantar) about the findings from Kantar’s recent report on marketing effectiveness in Australia. They discuss the pressures driving short-term thinking, the impact of brand erosion, why creative quality matters more than most marketers realise and how consumer behaviour is changing as 'sameness' floods the markets.

Whether you’re a CMO navigating budget scrutiny or a marketer trying to align brand and performance, this conversation offers a clear-eyed view of where marketing is heading and how to adapt.

• Why Australian marketers are facing mounting pressure to prove short-term ROI
• The risks of over-indexing on performance marketing
• How consumers are reshaping brand relationships as economies face stress from the polycrisis
• The drop in meaningfully different brands over the past decade, and what’s driving it
• How the “sea of sameness” in creative is eroding the effectiveness of marketing
• Why cultural relevance is key to standing out
• Why consistency across touchpoints is harder now, and how measurement systems can bridge short and long-term goals
• The importance of boldness and foresight for growth in a volatile market

Read the report here: Marketing Effectiveness Hub

Dan Robertson-Jones is a Partner at Kantar, one of the world’s leading marketing data and analytics companies. With over two decades of experience in strategic marketing research, Dan helps brands navigate disruption and decode shifting consumer behaviour.

• James Lawrence LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jameslawrenceoz/ 
• Smarter Marketer Website: https://rocketagency.com.au/smarter-marketer-podcast 
• Rocket Agency Website: https://rocketagency.com.au/ 
• Rocket Agency LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/rocket-agency-pty-ltd/

• Hardcover: https://amzn.to/30O63kg 
• Kindle: https://amzn.to/2ZqfCWm 

This is the definitive podcast for Australian marketers. Join Rocket Agency Co-Founder and best-selling author, James Lawrence in conversation with marketers, leaders, and thinkers about what it takes to be a smarter and more successful marketer.

Most marketers are pressured to focus their energy on the 5% of buyers ready to purchase today, but what about the 95% who aren’t in market yet? Ignoring them likely means missing your biggest growth opportunity. Building mental availability with future buyers is critical, yet often overlooked in the rush to chase immediate sales.

In this episode, James Lawrence (Co-Founder, Rocket Agency) sits down with Nick Palmer (CEO, House of Brand) to unpack what it really means to balance current and future demand. They explore why brand building is still misunderstood, how demand generation works differently in B2B vs B2C, and why many marketers still struggle to make the case for long-term investment internally. Expect insights on how mental availability drives growth, what it takes to win both short-term conversions and tomorrow’s customers, and practical ways to make brand work count in 2025.

Whether you’re working with a lean budget or leading a brand with national reach, this conversation will challenge how you think about demand generation.

• Why marketers are pushing back against vanity metrics - and what they’re focusing on instead
• How big brands and small brands should think differently about performance vs brand
• Why chasing perfect attribution can lead you in the wrong direction
• What you can measure when it comes to brand - and how to make it count
• What to prioritise when building future demand in B2B vs B2C
• How to stay top of mind with buyers long before they’re ready to act

Nick is a brand and communications researcher and strategist, and a recognised specialist in measuring advertising effectiveness, with global experience in agencies ranging from Millward Brown to Hall & Partners. Through his role as CEO at House of Brand, Nick relentlessly pursues breakthrough brand insights for clients. 

James Lawrence LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jameslawrenceoz/ 

Smarter Marketer Website: https://rocketagency.com.au/smarter-marketer-podcast 

Rocket Agency Website: https://rocketagency.com.au/ 

Rocket Agency LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/rocket-agency-pty-ltd/

Hardcover: https://amzn.to/30O63kg 

Kindle: https://amzn.to/2ZqfCWm 

This is the definitive podcast for Australian marketers. Join Rocket Agency Co-Founder and best-selling author, James Lawrence in conversation with marketers, leaders, and thinkers about what it takes to be a smarter and more successful marketer.

B2B service firms have been told to niche down, build helpful content and trust the funnel. But in today’s competitive market, where everyone is applying the same formula, it’s not enough to stand out. When every firm looks and sounds the same, buyers tune out.

In this episode, Host James Lawrence, Co-Founder of Rocket Agency, sits down with B2B messaging strategist Alex James to unpack a smarter way forward. You’ll learn why having a clear perspective is more powerful than having the best tips, tactics or templates - and how your point of view can become your biggest differentiator in a crowded market. 

We dig into the dangers of short-term metrics, why most B2B content fails to convert and how B2B service firms can win more work without blowing big budgets. This one’s for marketers who are done chasing clicks and ready to build something better.

• Alex’s marketing journey and the story behind his viral post: A Niche is No Longer Enough
• What it means to have a “perspective” in B2B marketing and why it matters
• Why messaging is not the same as copywriting and why you should know the difference
• What to focus on when 99% of your audience isn’t ready to buy
• The unique marketing challenges faced by B2B service firms compared to B2B SaaS businesses
• How professional services firms use perspective to create perceived differentiation - when their offer isn’t obviously unique
• Why content built around “best practices” often fails to generate demand
• Real-world examples of perspective-led marketing - including what B2B marketers can learn from Donald Trump’s campaign messaging strategy

Alex James is a B2B messaging strategist and the founder of Minimalist Marketing Co, a Melbourne-based consultancy that works with B2B service firms across the US and Europe. Drawing on over a decade of experience and a journey that spans multiple marketing roles, viral TikToks and content that’s shaped entire client pipelines, Alex helps firms build standout perspectives that resonate with buyers.

You can follow Alex on LinkedIn.

James Lawrence LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jameslawrenceoz/ 

Smarter Marketer Website: https://rocketagency.com.au/smarter-marketer-podcast 

Rocket Agency Website: https://rocketagency.com.au/ 

Rocket Agency LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/rocket-agency-pty-ltd/

Hardcover: https://amzn.to/30O63kg 

Kindle: https://amzn.to/2ZqfCWm 

This is the definitive podcast for Australian marketers. Join Rocket Agency Co-Founder and best-selling author, James Lawrence in conversation with marketers, leaders, and thinkers about what it takes to be a smarter and more successful marketer.

What happens when a generation that grew up online starts leading your marketing conversations? Host James Lawrence speaks with Katy Richardson, Global Head of Marketing at student living app Housr, about how Gen Z - and soon Gen Alpha - are rewriting the rules of brand engagement.

• How Gen Z is already influencing both consumer and B2B buying decisions, and what that means for marketers
• Why user-generated and employee-generated content is now non-negotiable as part of a social strategy
• How to make the most of influencers by giving them creative license
• Short-form videos vs long videos - what wins on social media?
• How social commerce is changing the way younger audiences discover and buy products
• The role of traditional channels like out-of-home advertising in connecting with digital-first audiences
• Why younger consumers expect brands to take real action on purpose, ethics and sustainability
• How to meet Gen Z’s demand for fast, responsive and real-time communication

Katy Richardson is the Global Head of Marketing at student living app, Housr. With over 12 years of creative and marketing experience across Australia and the UK, she specialises in connecting brands with young, digitally native audiences. Prior to Housr, Katy led B2C marketing for UniDays and worked agency-side on Gen Z-led campaigns.

You can follow Katy on LinkedIn.

James Lawrence LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jameslawrenceoz/ 

Smarter Marketer Website: https://rocketagency.com.au/smarter-marketer-podcast 

Rocket Agency Website: https://rocketagency.com.au/ 

Rocket Agency LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/rocket-agency-pty-ltd/

Hardcover: https://amzn.to/30O63kg 

Kindle: https://amzn.to/2ZqfCWm 

This is the definitive podcast for Australian marketers. Join Rocket Agency Co-Founder and best-selling author, James Lawrence in conversation with marketers, leaders, and thinkers about what it takes to be a smarter and more successful marketer.

We’re halfway through 2025 and AI is the buzzword on everyone's lips. And while it’s changing marketing fast, is the hype legitimate? Host James Lawrence is joined by Rocket Agency’s co-founder, David Lawrence, to unpack what AI adoption actually looks like on the ground, and how Australian marketers can equip themselves for what’s to come - inside agencies, in-house teams and across different marketing roles.

• Reality check: Has AI lived up to the hype - or has it already surpassed it in some areas?
• Where today’s large language models (like ChatGPT, Gemini and Claude) are genuinely delivering value, and where the hype still outweighs results
• The shift from AI anxiety to AI empowerment and what that means for marketers’ careers
• What it means to adopt an “AI-first” mindset across different levels of marketing maturity
• How voice prompting and tools like Wispr are helping break old habits and unlock better output
• Why your workflow, not the tool, should determine which AI platforms you use
• A realistic look at AI in recruiting, what employers are really looking for and how to future-proof your role
• Tips for staying current: trusted newsletters to read and pragmatic influencers to follow

David Lawrence is the MD and Co-Founder of Rocket, an award-winning Australian full-service digital marketing agency. He is also the co-author of the Amazon #1 best-selling marketing book,  Smarter Marketer. David has presented at several events, including Inbound Boston, Search Marketing Summit, Mumbrella360, CEO Institute, and various seminars and in-house sessions.

You can follow David on LinkedIn.

James Lawrence LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jameslawrenceoz/ 

Smarter Marketer Website: https://rocketagency.com.au/smarter-marketer-podcast 

Rocket Agency Website: https://rocketagency.com.au/ 

Rocket Agency LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/rocket-agency-pty-ltd/

Hardcover: https://amzn.to/30O63kg 

Kindle: https://amzn.to/2ZqfCWm 

This is the definitive podcast for Australian marketers. Join Rocket Agency Co-Founder and best-selling author, James Lawrence in conversation with marketers, leaders, and thinkers about what it takes to be a smarter and more successful marketer.

What makes people say "yes"? Rocket Agency’s Co-Founder James Lawrence sits down with Dr. Robert Cialdini, the godfather of influence and the world’s foremost authority on the psychology of persuasion, to talk about the timeless principles behind his work, his seventh principle of influence - Unity - and how AI, ethics and empathy are shaping persuasion in modern marketing.

• Origin story: How Dr. Cialdini went “undercover” in multiple industries to discover the universal principles of influence
• A walkthrough of the original six principles - Reciprocity, Scarcity, Authority, Consistency, Liking and Social Proof
• The 7th principle - Unity: Why bonds formed by shared identity matter today
• The importance of ethics: Why marketers should use persuasion techniques truthfully and responsibly
• Influence vs cultural differences: How different regions (e.g., Australia, Asia, Scandinavia) prioritise different principles of influence
• The rise of AI: How marketers are using AI to apply Cialdini’s principles
• The science of “pre-suasion” and how setting context before your message boosts effectiveness
• Real-world examples of effective use of influence and persuasion from brands like Avis, L’Oreal and Best Buy

Dr. Robert Cialdini is a globally renowned psychologist and the bestselling author of Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion, Pre-Suasion, and Yes!. His groundbreaking research on why people say 'yes' has shaped the way professionals across marketing, sales, leadership and behavioral science approach persuasion. 

He is often referred to as the godfather of influence, and his principles of influence drive ethical influence strategies today.

You can follow Dr. Cialdini on LinkedIn.

James Lawrence LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jameslawrenceoz/ 

Smarter Marketer Website: https://rocketagency.com.au/smarter-marketer-podcast 

Rocket Agency Website: https://rocketagency.com.au/ 

Rocket Agency LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/rocket-agency-pty-ltd/

Hardcover: https://amzn.to/30O63kg 

Kindle: https://amzn.to/2ZqfCWm 

This is the definitive podcast for Australian marketers. Join Rocket Agency Co-Founder and best-selling author, James Lawrence in conversation with marketers, leaders, and thinkers about what it takes to be a smarter and more successful marketer.

With the growth of AI and LLMs like ChatGPT, the question "Is Google dying?" is often being asked. In this episode, James Lawrence sits down with Rocket’s Head of SEO, Joe Alder, to cut through the hype and discuss the facts about how AI is impacting SEO and search traffic in 2025. The conversation is backed by Australian-first research from Rocket’s SEO team.

Also discussed are the similarities and differences as it relates to SEO and AIO. Whether you're a CMO under pressure to ‘AI everything’ or an in-house marketer navigating new search norms, this is your guide to what’s actually changing and importantly, what is not. 

• The current landscape - a reality check on AI traffic and its actual impact on search behaviour
• How Google remains resilient amid AI growth
• AI Overviews - What they are and who they impact
• 6 practical strategies to rank in LLMs that actually work
• The importance of doing good SEO
• How to optimise technical SEO
• Why high-quality content creation matters
• How to structure for ranking high
• How to build brand authority
• How to monitor and adapt to the changing landscape
• The future - How AI and SEO will change in the next 1-5 years

Joe Alder is the Head of SEO at Rocket, where he leads all SEO services and projects. He has over 8 years of experience in implementing complex SEO campaigns and driving tangible results for B2C, B2B and government organisations. Over the course of his career, he has worked for notable brands such as Amazon, Qudos, P&O Cruises, PE Nation, Fujitsu, and Coates, among others.

You can follow Joe on LinkedIn.

Access our free webinar with AdNews on AI and SEO in 2025.

James Lawrence LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jameslawrenceoz/ 

Smarter Marketer Website: https://rocketagency.com.au/smarter-marketer-podcast 

Rocket Agency Website: https://rocketagency.com.au/ 

Rocket Agency LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/rocket-agency-pty-ltd/

Hardcover: https://amzn.to/30O63kg 

Kindle: https://amzn.to/2ZqfCWm 

This is the definitive podcast for Australian marketers. Join Rocket Agency Co-Founder and best-selling author, James Lawrence in conversation with marketers, leaders, and thinkers about what it takes to be a smarter and more successful marketer.

In-house marketers and agency leaders don’t always speak the same language - but when they do, the results can be game-changing.

In this episode, host James Lawrence sits down with Drew McLellan, CEO of the Agency Management Institute, to unpack what makes agency relationships thrive or fail. Whether you're managing one agency or several, or considering switching partners altogether, this episode is for anyone wanting to bridge the in-house/agency gap.

• The top reason agency-client relationships break down: (communication) and how to fix 
• How in-house marketers can improve agency performance through more transparency
• Why caring (and showing it) really matters to agencies
• The red flags that indicate when it’s time to walk away from your agency
• Why investing in building a true partnership with your agency pays off

Drew McLellan has worked in advertising for 25+ years and started his own agency, McLellan Marketing Group in 1995 after a five-year stint at Y&R. He also owns and runs the Agency Management Institute (AMI), which is a consultancy for small to medium-sized agencies that has been helping agency owners grow their agencies since the early 90s. Drew’s agency was a member of the organization for years before Drew acquired AMI and began to run it full-time. Drew’s often interviewed/quoted in Entrepreneur Magazine, New York Times, CNN, BusinessWeek, and many others. The Wall Street Journal calls him “one of 10 bloggers every entrepreneur should read.

You can follow Drew on LinkedIn.

James Lawrence LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jameslawrenceoz/ 

Smarter Marketer Website: https://rocketagency.com.au/smarter-marketer-podcast 

Rocket Agency Website: https://rocketagency.com.au/ 

Rocket Agency LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/rocket-agency-pty-ltd/

Hardcover: https://amzn.to/30O63kg 

Kindle: https://amzn.to/2ZqfCWm 

This is the definitive podcast for Australian marketers. Join Rocket Agency Co-Founder and best-selling author, James Lawrence in conversation with marketers, leaders, and thinkers about what it takes to be a smarter and more successful marketer.