On the podcast I talk with Josh about red flags that tank app valuations, why subscription-only apps are leaving money on the table, and how bootstrapped founders are cashing out for millions in months, not years.

Top Takeaways:

🎯 Build to sell, but build smart
Flipping an app in under a year is still possible, but the skill that matters most now is marketing. With AI lowering the barrier to development, distribution has become the real differentiator. Founders who master organic channels, community, and creator-driven marketing are the ones who land meaningful exits.

💰 Predictability drives value
Buyers pay more for revenue they can trust. Apps built on recurring subscriptions with strong retention and low churn are far more attractive than those relying on ads or one-time purchases. Predictable cash flow isn’t just safer, it’s worth a higher multiple.

🚩 Short-term tricks destroy long-term value
Artificially inflating numbers before a sale, such as pushing lifetime deals to boost revenue, can quickly kill a deal. Serious acquirers look for sustainable metrics, not spikes. Authentic growth, honest reporting, and healthy retention are the hallmarks of a business built to last.

🔄 Fewer and deeper bets
The age-old quality-over-quantity principle still holds. After buying nearly a hundred small apps early on, BlueThrone learned that broad portfolios don’t win. Their new playbook focuses on a handful of apps with real product-market fit, strong organic traction, and teams ready to scale into category leaders.

💡 Hybrid monetization unlocks new growth
Borrowing tactics from gaming, like consumables, day passes, and rewarded ads, helps subscription apps reach more users and capture more value. These models make spending feel flexible and fair, turning a single price point into an entire revenue spectrum.

About Josh Peleg:  

📈 Head of Business Development and M&A at BlueThrone, one of the world’s leading app acquirers.

💡 Josh helps founders scale and exit their apps, guiding deals that range from six to eight figures.

🎮 Before joining BlueThrone, he led mergers and acquisitions in the mobile gaming industry, giving him a front-row view of how distribution and monetization strategies evolve.

🗣 “The best apps today aren’t just great products—they’re great stories. Marketing and distribution are what turn a good idea into a real business.”

👋 LinkedIn

Follow us on X: 

• David Barnard - @drbarnard
• Jacob Eiting - @jeiting
• RevenueCat - @RevenueCat
• SubClub - @SubClubHQ

Episode Highlights:
[0:00] Lesson learned from BlueThrone’s early “go-wide” strategy 

[6:20] Why founders have to be more than great builders 

[8:19] The pieces that lead to higher valuations

[12:37] Five signals that can kill a deal

[18:12] When (and when not) to raise

[24:33] Shifting from a broad portfolio to a few deep bets 

[33:15] The future of monetization

[45:07] What drives the best exits in today’s acquisition market

[52:00] How founders can position themselves for life-changing exits 

On the podcast we talk with Mathias about running Subway Surfers' marketing machine on salaries, not ad spend, leaving money on the table to protect player experience, and why more apps should try rewarded ads, season passes, and other tactics from gaming.

Top Takeaways:

🎨 Viral flywheels can out-perform massive paid campaigns

Relying on salaries instead of ad budgets, a lean team can ship constant creative that rides cultural waves. Most experiments flop quietly, but the occasional viral hit fuels downloads across platforms and even influences app store featuring. The lesson: volume, autonomy, and cultural fluency can rival—or surpass—big-spend marketing.

🛡️ Protecting user experience is a growth strategy

It’s tempting to squeeze harder on monetization, but avoiding overly aggressive tactics can pay off longer-term. By keeping the core product endlessly playable and resisting short-term optimization, teams can build evergreen engagement that compounds for over a decade. Sometimes the best ROI comes from not chasing every last dollar.

🎁 Rewarded ads expand who you can monetize

Giving users the choice to watch ads in exchange for perks isn’t just a gaming trick—it’s a fairness mechanism. It allows players in tier-two and tier-three markets, who may never subscribe, to still contribute value. Apps beyond gaming can borrow this playbook to reach broader audiences without alienating core users.

⏱️ Season passes deliver transparency and trust

Unlike recurring subscriptions, passes offer clear value over a fixed time window: pay once, play (or use) for the season. This structure avoids the “forgotten subscription” resentment while still generating meaningful revenue. It’s a model that translates well to utilities and lifestyle apps where usage is bursty or seasonal.

🤝 Collaborations multiply reach without heavy spend

Crossovers between brands or products can reactivate lapsed users and bring in new audiences, even when no money changes hands. Like the music industry learned with features, one plus one can equal three when two strong IPs join forces. Subscription apps in adjacent niches can create the same effect.

About Mathias Gredal Nørvig: 

👨‍💻 CEO of SYBO, the company behind the smash hit mobile game Subway Surfers.

📈 Mathias and the small-but-mighty SYBO content marketing team have built a freemium mobile app with serious staying power.

💡“How do we entertain as many players as possible with something as available as possible, but also allow those who want to spend … money to progress or get more content to do so — without the expense of ruining the fun for the majority?”

👋 LinkedIn 

Follow us on X: 

• David Barnard - @drbarnard
• Jacob Eiting - @jeiting
• RevenueCat - @RevenueCat
• SubClub - @SubClubHQ

Episode Highlights: 

[1:01] Staying power: How a subscription app like Subway Surfers achieves longevity with over 4.5 billion downloads.

[4:30] Surfing the waves: How the Subway Surfers in-house creative marketing team creates and rides virality waves.

[8:50] The content flywheel: How subscription apps can become self-sustaining with organic marketing.

[16:27] Cash flow: What subscription apps can learn from the mobile gaming industry about alternative monetization strategies.

[19:51] Paying the piper: How to balance a good user experience with when and how to require payment.

[25:30] A watchful eye: The challenges of preserving brand reputation and protecting underage users in a freemium app that serves ads.

[28:48] Teaming up: Avoiding cannibalization and partnering with competitors in the free-to-play space.

[41:17] Day pass: How apps can experiment with consumables, day passes, and season passes to unlock new revenue opportunities.

On the podcast we talk with Ora about LinkedIn’s value-driven growth philosophy, how they personalize experiences and plan offerings based on user intent, and the complexity of running over a thousand experiments a year.

Top Takeaways:

🌱 Growth follows value

The surest path to long-term growth is adding features and benefits that genuinely help people achieve their goals. Growth tactics may bring a spike, but sustainable revenue comes from a product that keeps evolving so members find new reasons to return. When value creation is continuous, acquisition and retention become self-reinforcing.

🎯 Personalize by intent

Not all users are looking for the same outcome. Job seekers, small business owners, and learners need different experiences. Matching plans, features, and paywalls to their specific intent—whether expressed directly or inferred from behavior—makes the product feel relevant and worth paying for. The alternative is irrelevance, which guarantees churn.

📊 Test like a scientist

Scaling experimentation changes the culture: debates give way to data. By running over a thousand tests a year, teams learn faster, spot what actually resonates, and avoid relying on intuition alone. The goal isn’t just to optimize pricing or layouts—it’s to build a habit of constant learning that compounds into growth.

🔄 Retention isn’t linear

Churn doesn’t always mean goodbye. Many users return months or years later when their needs change—“boomerang” behavior that can become a meaningful revenue stream. Win-back offers, refreshed trials, and simply continuing to add new value all help capture these returning customers and turn them into long-term loyalists.

🤖 AI is a tool, not the story

Artificial intelligence should quietly power better outcomes, not become the headline. Helping users write a stronger profile, find the right lead, or save time drafting a job description creates tangible value. Positioning AI as a behind-the-scenes helper keeps the focus where it belongs: solving the user’s problem.

About Ora Levit:
 

👨‍💻 Vice President of Product Management at LinkedIn.

📈 Ora manages LinkedIn’s billion-dollar online subscription businesses, growing both the free weekly active user base and adding value for LinkedIn Premium subscribers.

💡“Our offering changes over time, and as I mentioned, we believe in value-driven growth. We add a lot of value. And so the Premium that you've seen if you subscribed two years ago is not the Premium of today. It's a very different product, and I want you to try it out.”

👋 LinkedIn

Follow us on X: 

• David Barnard - @drbarnard
• Jacob Eiting - @jeiting
• RevenueCat - @RevenueCat
• SubClub - @SubClubHQ

Episode Highlights:

[0:00] Value add: How LinkedIn centers value-driven growth in their product development.

[8:40] The long game: The importance of optimizing for and measuring long-term revenue.

[9:57] Pay to play: Where to draw the line between free and paid features.

[17:59] Put it to the test: Ora and her team prioritize A/B testing and user feedback over internal debates about feature ideas.

[23:32] Take it personally: The role of AI and LLMs in personalizing in-app experiences.

[27:47] Here today (and tomorrow): Strategies for retaining users in the long term and winning back churned users.

[34:52] The AI touch: LinkedIn’s philosophy on incorporating AI features to add value to their product.

[39:44] Two (or three) for one: Leveraging strategic partnerships to add bundled perks to a premium subscription offering.

[41:43] Pulse check: Monitoring earnings calls, reports, books, and podcasts to stay in step with the current state of the subscription app industry.

On the podcast I talk with Eric about how measurement dysfunction paralyzes growth, why diversifying channels for the sake of diversification actually hurts performance, and the futility of trying to interpret why ads win.

Top Takeaways:

📊 Broken measurement kills growth

The biggest pitfall isn’t creative or channel choice—it’s disorganized measurement. When finance, product, and UA each use different models, growth stalls. The fix isn’t another dashboard; it’s alignment. Build one coherent, incrementality-aware framework everyone trusts, with clear definitions of success and outputs that meet each team’s needs.

🌊 Don’t diversify just to diversify

Spreading budget across more channels feels safer but often reduces performance after integration, creative, and reporting overhead. Start with a waterfall method: max out your primary channel until ROAS hits your threshold, then move to the next. Diversify for scale or cross-channel effects—not optics.

🎲 Stop asking why an ad worked

Winners often defy tidy explanations. Treat individual ad outcomes as stochastic and largely uninterpretable. Put your energy into the system: feed diverse concepts, automate prospecting/synthesis, and measure whether your process is increasing the rate of wins over time. Learn from inputs and process—not post-hoc stories about outputs.

⚡ Ship speed over certainty early

You won’t have fully baked LTV or incrementality in week one. Push spend methodically: kill obvious losers immediately, let plausible winners age, track cohort ROAS at day-7/30/60, and widen budgets as curves support it. Iterative frontier-pushing beats premature “terminal LTV” guesswork.

🧩 Engineer better signals

Algorithms optimize to the signals you send. Create intentional, high-intent events (light “hurdles” that correlate with LTV) and send those back to platforms. Better signals shift spend toward durable users and compound efficiency, especially as automation on major platforms accelerates.

About Eric Seufert:

👨‍💻 Quantitative marketer, media strategist, investor, and author.

📈 Eric shares expert advice on the Mobile Dev Memo blog and is an investor at Heracles Capital.

💡 “The way I approach creative testing is trying to identify losers as quickly as possible. The winners take time to prove out, but the losers are pretty quick to prove out.”

👋 LinkedIn

Follow us on X: 

• David Barnard - @drbarnard
• Jacob Eiting - @jeiting
• RevenueCat - @RevenueCat
• SubClub - @SubClubHQ

Episode Highlights: 

[1:00] Intelligent design: How to effectively incorporate AI into your business strategy.

[4:52] I, Robot: Machine learning =/= generative AI.

[8:36] AI Pitfalls: AI works best for automating tasks and coming up with ideas — not generating brilliant creative assets.

[17:29] Predictive AI: Brand-specific, full-fidelity video ads generated by AI could be a reality within 18 months.

[33:25] Risky business: How to effectively diversify across advertising channels to optimize ROAS-adjusted spend.

[37:43] Measure of success: Above all, make sure your measurement system is coherent and has cross-team alignment.

[42:04] Tortoise vs. hare: To balance speed and efficiency, identify your ad “losers” as quickly as possible.

[44:43] Missed opportunity: Good marketing comes down to embracing some uncertainty and minimizing the rest.

[49:23] Human touch: Why generative AI creative tools probably aren’t a worthwhile investment right now.

On the podcast I talk with Thomas about using signal engineering to optimize ad spend, how AI is changing creative testing, and why most people should avoid app2web… for now.

Top Takeaways:

🧠 The biggest AI opportunity in ads is smarter analysis, not faster production

AI is now good enough to produce ad-quality video and variants at scale — but that’s where 95% of the industry focus stops. The underused frontier is AI for analysis: spotting winning hooks, predicting performance, and even pre-testing creatives with “AI humans” before spend. The teams that combine rapid AI production with AI-driven analysis can iterate faster and scale what works more reliably.

🔍 Signal engineering starts with fixing broken data

If the events you send to ad networks are inaccurate or poorly mapped, you’re sabotaging the algorithms. First step: make sure event counts match internal analytics within ~5–10% (not 30–50%). Then move from “normal” to “sophisticated” by filtering for quality — for example, optimizing to high-LTV trial signups instead of all trials — and sending value-adjusted revenue that reflects predicted LTV, not just day-one spend.

⚖️ Balance exploitation of winners with exploration of new concepts

When a creative crushes it, it’s tempting to flood your account with variations. But over-reliance on a single concept speeds fatigue and leaves you exposed when performance drops. Keep iterating on winners and testing new hooks in parallel — especially on fast-moving platforms like TikTok, where trends expire in weeks.

🌐 App-to-web works best for big brands with deep resources

Moving checkout to the web can bypass app store fees, but it’s a high-commitment experiment. Success usually requires brand trust, team bandwidth, and a well-tested flow — often with different plan structures than in-app. For most smaller teams, the opportunity cost outweighs the benefit. “Saying no to good ideas” is often the smarter prioritization.

💳 Hybrid monetization is powerful, but not plug-and-play

Combining subscriptions with one-time or usage-based purchases can capture more revenue from different segments — especially for AI-powered apps with real compute costs. But designing it to avoid cannibalizing subscriptions is complex. Treat hybrid as a later-stage lever: exhaust easier wins in pricing, packaging, and paywall optimization first, then experiment, possibly starting with Android or non-US markets. 

About Thomas Petit: 

👨‍💻 Independent app growth consultant helping subscription apps like Lingokids, Deezer, and Mojo.

📈 Thomas is passionate about helping subscription apps optimize their ad spend and increase ROI through smarter testing.

💡 “The whole idea of signal engineering and optimization of the data that you're sending back is: send the network something better, and they're gonna do a better job. They are doing a better job — it's you who are not doing yours.”

👋  LinkedIn

Follow us on X:

• David Barnard - @drbarnard
• Jacob Eiting - @jeiting
• RevenueCat - @RevenueCat
• SubClub - @SubClubHQ

Episode Highlights:
 

[1:21] Testing smarter: How AI may be changing the game for testing ads.

[13:09] Untangling the web: App-to-web can work for some, but it’s not a slam dunk.

[21:19] Hedge your bets: The benefits of moving away from subscription-only and embracing hybrid monetization strategies.

[26:50] Going global: When and why to consider experimenting with hybrid monetization outside the US.

[31:15] Signal vs. noise: The signal engineering framework for sending the most valuable user interaction data to ad platforms.

[44:47] Multi-platform: Optimizing your data and event mapping for multiple ad networks.

[53:01] Low-hanging fruit: Scoring easy wins with signal engineering.

[1:08:04] Hands-off: Why ad networks likely won’t (and maybe shouldn’t?) implement built-in signal engineering tools for app marketers.

[1:14:05] Going deep: Advanced signal engineering techniques.

[1:26:09] Volume vs. quality: Why sending fewer events to ad networks may actually yield better results.

On the podcast I talk with Lucy and Nicole about how customer-driven iteration led Zumba from VHS tapes in 2001 to launching an app in 2024, their app2web experiments that boosted LTV by 17%, and how they are able to charge for content when countless Zumba classes are available for free on YouTube.

Top Takeaways:

🗣️ Listening has driven 24 years of product evolution

Every Zumba breakthrough — from instructor certifications born out of VHS buyer calls, to an app tailored for shy beginners — came directly from customer insights. The roadmap is data-led, not intuition-driven, ensuring they're always building what users genuinely want.

🎯 Subscribers pay for structured programs, not endless content

Zumba realized users were overwhelmed by free YouTube videos. By creating curated, goal-oriented programs, subscribers now watch twice as many videos and retention doubled. People will pay for guidance and curation — not just more content.

🚀 Your growth ceiling depends on beginner retention

With 70% of new users identifying as beginners, Zumba redesigned onboarding and UX to quickly move them toward completing three classes. Annual-plan signups reached 60%, and churn dropped dramatically. Early milestones for beginners unlock long-term growth.

🌐 Web checkout can lower conversion yet raise revenue

Zumba shifted paywall taps to a simplified web checkout with Apple Pay and Google Pay. Immediate conversions dropped 25%, but higher annual plans, better retention, and no store fees drove a 17% lift in LTV. Optimize for long-term value, not just instant conversions.

🔁 Speed of iteration beats legacy processes every time

Zumba’s lean, agile team tests and pivots relentlessly — from paywall pricing to removing unsuccessful features. Daily checks in Mixpanel dictate what scales or what’s cut. Moving quickly and iterating beats established practices and keeps growth steady.

About Nicole Page & Lucy Levy:

📱 Nicole Page is Senior Product Manager at Zumba, leading app development with a focus on user research and fast iteration. From onboarding experiments to web-first paywalls, she brings a data-driven mindset to every launch.

💡 “Every launch is a hypothesis we’re testing, and we’re never afraid to pivot if the numbers tell us to.”

👋 Nicole

🚀 Lucy Levy is Chief Consumer Officer at Zumba, guiding the brand from VHS to app, boosting LTV 17% along the way with innovative strategies and beginner-focused design.

🌍 Together, they’re modernizing Zumba’s global community.

👋 Lucy

Follow us on X: 

• David Barnard - @drbarnard
• Jacob Eiting - @jeiting
• RevenueCat - @RevenueCat
• SubClub - @SubClubHQ

Episode Highlights:

[00:02:44] From VHS to app store: How three Albertos turned dance fitness into a global brand.

[00:06:26] Community is the product: Why Zumba built its business around instructors, not just workouts.

[00:11:01] Research at scale: How hundreds of interviews revealed why “The Shy Beginner” is their most important user.

[00:14:30] Better churn than never: Why people leaving the app for live classes still counts as a win.

[00:15:54] Can’t compete with free? Yes you can: The Zumba app’s curated programs outperform YouTube.

[00:17:25] Double the value: Adding structured programs led to twice the content engagement and better retention.

[00:20:04] Cracking community: Why their first chat-based social feature failed and what they’re planning next.

[00:22:56] Test everything: Zumba’s app team operates with a growth mindset inside a 24-year-old company.

[00:25:22] Data before breakfast: Why daily Mixpanel check-ins drive fast iteration and culture change.

[00:26:09] App-to-web win: How a 25% drop in conversion still led to a 17% lift in LTV.

[00:30:19] Checkout optimization: Using Stripe, Apple Pay, and Google Pay to simplify the paywall experience.

[00:35:07] Push, don’t annoy: The team’s smart notification timing strategy based on user habits.

[00:38:44] Beginner, please: 75% of users identify as new to fitness, so the app is built just for them.

[00:39:01] Add friction, raise conversion: How a longer onboarding flow improved paywall success.

[00:40:51] One class to hook them: Why Zumba offers just one free class before locking the app.

[00:43:25] Three’s the magic number: Users who complete three classes are much more likely to stick.

[00:44:56] No trial, no problem: Ditching the monthly trial increased upfront revenue and annual plan adoption.

On the podcast I talk with John about the fascinating 40-year history of Apple’s developer relations, how almost going bankrupt in the 1990s shaped today’s control-focused approach, and why we might need an ‘App Store 3.0’ reset.

Top Takeaways:

🕹️ The 1980s: Apple’s developer DNA was born
 Apple’s earliest wins came from nurturing third-party developers, even spinning off its own apps to avoid competing with outsiders.

💸 Microsoft saved Apple (literally)
 Apple’s near-bankruptcy in the ’90s made them both humble and wary—forever shaping how they deal with developers and competition.

🍎 From “please build for us” to “we choose you”
 WWDC 2008 saw Apple begging for apps and evangelist emails on slides; today, it’s the other way around.

🖥️ The “Delicious Era” fueled iPhone success
 Mac indie devs (Panic, Delicious Monster, Bare Bones) built a design-obsessed, passionate community—setting the stage for the iPhone App Store boom.

🚪 App Store 1.0: A new world for indies
 For the first time, solo developers could launch businesses from home. No server costs, no payments hassle—just build, submit, and sell.

🏦 Apple’s rules got stricter as the App Store grew
 As the App Store became a services giant, the partnership vibe faded. Developers went from partners to “users” of Apple’s marketplace.

📉 App Store math now feels upside down
 Today, indie devs can pay Apple millions, while giants like Meta pay almost nothing. The fee logic and incentives don’t fit 2025.

⏳ The platform needs an “App Store 3.0” reset
 John and David call for a new era: lower fees, clearer rules, and Apple acting as a true platform partner—not just a toll booth.

🔄 Developer enthusiasm is Apple’s long-term moat
 Apple risks becoming a “legacy only” giant if it loses developer goodwill. The most important apps are still built by outsiders.

👥 A generational handoff is coming
 With Apple’s senior leadership nearing retirement, now is the time to set new priorities: empower developers, invest in the ecosystem, and ensure Apple’s platforms stay vibrant for decades to come.

About John Gruber:

🚀 Author of the Daring Fireball blog, host of The Talk Show, and co-creator of Markdown.

🍎 John is a lifelong Apple fan and is passionate about discussing all things iPhone, App Store, and developer relations.

💡 “I feel like Apple is dwelling on the success and the innovation that completely revolutionized the phone industry […] for too long and that they should move on and build something else new.”

👋  Daring Fireball 

Resources: 

• Bill Gates in 1984 promoting Apple Macintosh 
• Bill Gates on stage with Steve Jobs in 1983
• The Macintosh Way — Guy Kawasaki
• Cocoa Programming for Mac OS X — Aaron Hillegass
• Daring Fireball

Follow us on X: 

• David Barnard - @drbarnard
• Jacob Eiting - @jeiting
• RevenueCat - @RevenueCat
• SubClub - @SubClubHQ

Episode Highlights: 

[0:00] Apple Kremlinology: Why understanding Apple requires a special kind of obsession - and a long memory.

[4:58] Fanboys unite: David shares how his love of Apple led him from audio engineer to App Store developer.

[8:48] Turning point: John’s link to David’s iPhone mileage app in 2008 helped jumpstart his indie career.

[13:37] Joz, Phil, and Eddy: The developer relations and most of the App Store are overseen by three Apple execs who joined in the ‘80s.

[17:01] The crossroads: How Apple’s early decision to unbundle first-party apps in the ‘80s encouraged third-party innovation.

[21:25] Hands off: Why Apple’s decade-long retreat from building software paved the way for a thriving developer ecosystem.

[27:07] Vision parallels: John compares Vision Pro’s slow start to the original Mac - and explains why it doesn’t have to be perfect (yet).

[30:32] Betting on the future: How Apple playing the long-game is their biggest advantage in launching and sustaining new platforms.

[33:55] What comes after the Mac: The ‘90s were filled with failed next-gen Apple platforms - and it almost killed the company.

[36:47] Burned by success: Apple’s trauma from near-bankruptcy shaped their need to control developer relationships.

[41:13] The App Store revolution: Why the 2008 launch of the App Store wasn’t just a business move, it was a turning point for software itself.

[45:07] Developer momentum: How passionate indie devs and Mac software of the 2000s primed the iPhone for success.

[53:46] iPhone jailbreakers: Why the jailbreak community may have pushed Apple to launch the SDK sooner than expected.

[57:39] App Store 2.0: In 2016, Apple dropped some commission rates, opened up subscriptions, and kicked off a new era.

[1:03:03] Time for 3.0: Why David believes the App Store needs another reset - and a shift in mindset.

[1:08:26] Humility and hardware: Steve Jobs’ 1997 apology to a developer at WWDC still echoes - and it’s exactly what developers need to hear in 2025.

[1:13:30] Holding on too tight: How Apple’s fear of losing control is costing them developer goodwill.

[1:26:35] A legacy worth protecting: The iPhone isn’t going anywhere - but without change, Apple could become a legacy business as other platforms take over.

[1:32:06] Red flags on Vision Pro: Why developers aren’t building for Apple’s newest platform - and why that should worry Apple.

[1:39:18] The indie paradox: How small developers pay millions to Apple, while giants like Meta pay almost nothing.
[1:41:39] Fluke of history: Schiller once floated capping App Store revenue at $1B. What if Jobs had said yes?
[1:44:35] The trust gap: Could a more generous App Store policy bring Netflix and others back?

[1:47:08] It’s not too late: Why Apple should proactively change the App Store instead of waiting on regulation.

[1:57:26] Developer vibes: A simpler App Store (with clearer rules and lower fees) could renew trust and drive innovation.

[2:00:29] Bigger than profit: Making great soft...

On the podcast we talk with Eric about his journey from a failed first app to success with his second, the advantage of building for problems people are already talking about, and why he turned down a lucrative acquisition offer to keep building.

Top Takeaways:
🔍 Demand-first discipline wins
Testing for willingness to pay before writing a line of code can spare you five years of false starts. Quick interviews or landing pages that capture real purchase signals reveal genuine demand—an indispensable early litmus test against building in a vacuum.

🔄 Ride existing habits
Rather than convincing users to adopt completely new rituals, plug into behaviors they already practice. When pros were manually measuring holes on satellite maps, the real breakthrough was automating that exact process in real time—sidestepping the steep education curve of a brand-new workflow.

🛑 Bet on a long-term vision, not a quick exit
An early $75K acquisition offer can feel like a no-brainer, but sometimes the best move is to walk away. Turning down a strategic buyout kept ownership in entrepreneurial hands and paved the way for multiples of that valuation through continued iteration and growth.

💼 Treat side projects like businesses
A side hustle stays a hobby until you put real money on the line. Investing $5K in core data and infrastructure forced a shift from tinkering to professional-grade execution—transforming assumptions into data-driven priorities and unlocking deeper product opportunities.

🤝 Niche community fuel sparks growth
No launch strategy outpaces genuine community engagement. By sharing expert tips in specialized forums and social channels before and during build, small audiences morph into early adopters, trial converts, and your most effective brand advocates.

Resources 

• Very Good Ventures (Website)
• Seth Miller (LinkedIn)
• Curtis Herbert (LinkedIn)
• Eric’s story (RevenueCat blog post)

Follow us on X: 

• David Barnard - @drbarnard
• Jacob Eiting - @jeiting
• RevenueCat - @RevenueCat
• SubClub - @SubClubHQ

Episode Highlights: 

[3:24] If at first you don’t succeed: How (and when) Eric realized his first app, Undaunted Golf, didn’t have good product-market fit.

[7:28] Try, try again: Why Eric’s second golf app, Shot Pattern, was a success.

[11:21] If you build it: Instead of just launching on the App Store, Eric implemented a content marketing strategy to promote Shot Pattern.

[13:18] Back to black: How Eric’s $5,000 upfront investment in Shot Pattern unlocked some key product differentiators and paid off in a big way.

[20:23] Sell, sell, sell?: After receiving an acquisition offer from a potential buyer, Eric used RevenueCat’s app benchmarks to analyze Shot Pattern’s performance data and determine a rough valuation.

[25:06] Have a little faith: What happened when Eric turned down a $75,000 buyout offer and kept working on Shot Pattern.

[31:25] Video games: How Eric increased Shot Pattern’s annual revenue to $185,000 with video ads.

[37:24] Quit your day job: What would make Eric consider quitting his full-time teaching job to focus on his growing subscription app business.

[39:18] One-man show: Besides partnering with some content creators, Eric does most of the work for Shot Pattern by himself.

[42:25] Success story: How RevenueCat helped Eric launch and grow a successful app business that changed his life.

On the podcast, I talk with Charlie about why Liquid Glass represents a big opportunity for new and existing apps, Apple’s new on-device AI models and their practical limitations, and why the improved App Store Analytics complement rather than replace third-party tools like Appfigures and RevenueCat.

Top Takeaways:

🫧 A style refresh is a growth hack

A major UI overhaul—like Apple’s new “liquid glass” design—creates a once-in-cycle chance to stand out. Apps that ship the new look on day one dominate screenshots, roundup articles, and “App of the Day” slots. It’s free reach: adopt the guidelines early, respect the new hierarchy (avoid stacking glass on glass), and you can siphon users from slower rivals without a bigger ad budget.

🎯 Keywords deserve their own landing pages

You can now pin specific search terms to specific custom product pages. A running-focused page for “5k training,” a cycling page for “bike tracker,” each with its own screenshots and messaging. App Store Connect then breaks analytics down by page, turning guesswork into clear attribution. The result: higher paid-per-download and a shortcut to segment-level A/B testing—no SDK required.

⚡ Tiny, local AI = instant delight

Apple’s on-device foundation models aren’t GPT-4, and that’s fine. Their super-fast, private inference (with a 496-token context window) shines at micro-tasks: sentiment tags, quick text rewrites, lightweight image badges, feature-name suggestions. Treat them as edge helpers, not flagship features. For deep research or long context, hand off to a cloud model. Paired wisely, the mix keeps experiences snappy without sacrificing quality.

🪟 Build like screens will fold

iPadOS 26 finally lets apps run true windows, offload background work, and juggle tasks like a desktop. That’s great for tablets today and a rehearsal for rumored foldables tomorrow. Audit your layouts: do panes resize gracefully? Can a process finish if the user drags your window aside? Investing in this responsiveness now means you’re launch-ready when new form factors arrive.

🔑 Promotions should be measurable

Offer codes used to be subscription-only; now they work for consumables and one-time purchases too. You get up to ten trackable code groups (each with up to a million codes) plus UTM-style links and the expanded App Store analytics to see which podcast promo, TikTok ad, or partner giveaway actually drove revenue. You can finally run seasonal sales or affiliate deals without duct-tape spreadsheets and double down on what moves the needle.

About Charlie Chapman: 

👟 Senior Developer Advocate at RevenueCat and indie app creator behind a suite of iOS and macOS tools.

🎯 Charlie blends indie instincts with platform insight, translating Apple’s latest changes into real opportunities for developers.

💡 “Don’t build a chatbot around this (on-device models). But if you’re looking for a fast, free way to make your app better in small, thoughtful ways, the new on-device models are really interesting.”

👋  LinkedIn

Follow us on X: 

• David Barnard - @drbarnard
• Jacob Eiting - @jeiting
• RevenueCat - @RevenueCat
• SubClub - @SubClubHQ

On the podcast we talk with Charlie about why React Native has become the default for VC-funded apps, how AI is accelerating development cycles, and why speed of iteration matters more than programming language.

Top Takeaways:

⚡ Instant iteration cycles unlock agility
 React Native and Expo supercharge development by collapsing long build times into mere seconds. With tools like Expo Go enabling live updates, teams can experiment, test, and improve their apps in real time. This instant feedback loop fuels innovation, cuts dev time, and helps startups move faster than ever.

🧱 React Native unifies teams and code
 By choosing a cross-platform stack like React Native, companies can maintain a single codebase for iOS, Android, and web. This unified approach reduces silos, simplifies hiring, and streamlines development. The result is faster feature delivery, consistent UX, and the agility that startups need to scale.

📈 Iteration speed drives growth
 Shipping faster beats obsessing over tech stacks. Companies that iterate quickly can test ideas, learn from real users, and ship improvements faster than competitors. This leads to better products, higher retention, and stronger monetization, giving them a competitive edge in crowded markets.

🔍 Consistency across platforms builds trust
 Users expect apps to work seamlessly, whether they’re on iOS, Android, or the web. React Native helps deliver that uniform experience, aligning with modern product expectations. Consistency reduces friction, boosts trust, and enhances user satisfaction—key drivers of long-term growth.

🤝 AI is the co-pilot, humans set the course
 AI tools like Claude and Copilot are transforming app development, making it faster to scaffold code and build features. But the real breakthroughs come from human oversight—making smart UX decisions, handling platform quirks, and bringing creative problem-solving. Pairing AI speed with human insight unlocks the best of both worlds.

About Charlie Cheever:

🚀 Co-Founder and CEO of Expo, a platform that simplifies the development of native apps using React Native, empowering developers to build apps for iOS, Android, and the web with ease.

📱 Charlie is dedicated to empowering developers to create seamless, cross-platform apps with less friction. He’s focused on improving the developer experience by reducing complexity and enabling rapid iteration.

💡 “One of the biggest advantages of Expo and React Native is the ability to move fast and iterate quickly without worrying about maintaining separate codebases for each platform.

👋  LinkedIn

Resources: 

• State of Subscription Apps 2025 — RevenueCat Report

Follow us on X: 

• David Barnard - @drbarnard
• Jacob Eiting - @jeiting
• RevenueCat - @RevenueCat
• SubClub - @SubClubHQ

Episode Highlights: 

[1:12] Chain reaction: What React is and how Expo enables developers to use it.

[6:30] Positive feedback loop: How Expo dramatically shortens the product development and iteration cycle.

[12:08] React vs. native: Why React has become the default development framework for modern apps and websites — enabling seamless product iteration across platforms with fewer engineering resources.

[23:13] 1+3+4: How Bluesky was built for three platforms by one developer in just four months.

[28:07] All-in: Why it’s better to build with React from the start instead of developing a native app first and implementing React later.

[35:20] Cause/effect: Do React Native subscription apps monetize better than native apps?

[39:37] Coding smarter: How AI is speeding up development times and pushing developers towards rapid-iteration tools like Expo.

[58:52] Mobile shift: More and more people are consuming software on mobile devices instead of PCs… shouldn’t the app development process align with that shift?