On the podcast, I talk with Dan about estimating the ROI of product changes before building them, calculating your subscription app's growth ceiling, and why you shouldn’t make assumptions about what is and isn’t working in other apps.

Top Takeaways:

💸 ROI-first thinking helps teams prioritize what actually moves the needle
Every project has a cost - whether or not you calculate it. Estimating the ROI of a sprint, even with rough assumptions, can reveal when you’re investing $50K of dev time into a feature with minimal upside. It’s not about forecasting with precision, it’s about using basic math to avoid chasing ideas that won’t pay off.

⚾ Big swings take more than one try
Launching a major feature is rarely a one-and-done success. The biggest wins often come after multiple iterations - refining the UX, testing variations, learning from early data. Too many teams ship once and move on. But if there are signs of life, sticking with it for a few rounds is often where the real gains are made.

⏳ Churn math reveals the ceiling on your growth
If you’re adding 500 users per month and churn is 10%, your max subscriber base is 5,000. It’s simple math, but easy to overlook when topline numbers are growing. Looking at cohorts and long-term retention curves helps you spot when you’re approaching that ceiling - and whether you’re building a durable business or just replacing churned users.

🧵 Small UX improvements can beat big features
Rewriting confusing checkout error messages took just two days and lifted revenue by 1%. Polishing key flows like onboarding or paywall views often delivers a better return than shipping something new. If every user hits a flow, making it smoother can have an outsized impact on conversion and retention.

🚀 The fastest team wins, not the most secretive
Worried someone will copy your idea? Don’t be. The teams that win are the ones who move faster, not the ones who keep ideas hidden. Speed matters more than secrecy. Whether you’re validating a viral feature with TikTok mockups or running a rough A/B test, moving quickly lets you learn, adjust, and stay ahead.

About Dan Layfield: 

✍️ Founder of Subscription Index, a blog that breaks down the strategy, math, and real-world lessons behind successful subscription products.

🧠 Dan helps startups grow revenue by optimizing retention, reducing churn, and making smarter product bets rooted in ROI.

💡 “Your company will not be profitable ever if the output of your sprints doesn’t exceed the cost of your sprints.”

👋  LinkedIn

Resources:

The Hidden Math of Churn: Why You Can’t Scale Past $1M — Subscription Index blog post

Follow us on X: 

• David Barnard - @drbarnard
• Jacob Eiting - @jeiting
• RevenueCat - @RevenueCat
• SubClub - @SubClubHQ

Episode Highlights:

[1:03] Over/under — The importance of estimating the ROI of your product development efforts in advance.

[6:39] Making a splash: The pros and cons of building features in order to get attention on social media or in the press.

[12:49] Sweat the small stuff: Why fixing “small” issues with your user experience can lead to big payoffs.

[19:41] Hitting a ceiling: How to calculate your company’s maximum subscriber base based on your monthly new users and churn rate.

[24:03] The long game: Accounting for long-term users (“locals”) versus short-term users (“tourists”) in your growth ceiling estimates.

[32:11] Good use: How the degree of product-market fit for your app affects your churn rate.

[37:40] User activation: Mitigating churn by providing a great onboarding experience and giving users early wins.

[39:21] Money talks: Why auditing your pricing tiers and payment processing systems can significantly bolster your bottom line.

On the podcast, I talk with Ajay about the fresh opportunities AI is creating for app developers, how they built a cost-effective TikTok growth engine, and why being forced to monetize helped improve their product decisions.

Top Takeaways:
🤖 New tech, new apps – AI isn’t just making apps smarter. It’s enabling new categories entirely.
Apps built around real-time interaction, emotional context, and personalized content wouldn’t have been possible just a year ago. That means product-market fit can emerge in spaces that didn’t even exist before.

🎨 Design spreads – Great visuals are for distribution, not just decoration.
Memorable characters, animations, or interfaces can make your app instantly recognizable in screenshots, social videos, or App Store listings. Strong creative amplifies word-of-mouth.

💸 Monetization pushes clarity – Charging early forces your product to stand up on its own.
When you’re paying for AI infrastructure, you can’t wait to figure out value. Monetizing quickly reveals which users are getting enough utility to stick around and where the gaps are in your experience.

📈 TikTok still works – For the right product, UGC beats polish.
Test fast, post often, and watch what takes off. Lo-fi creator content can outperform paid campaigns, especially if your app is visual and easy to explain. One viral post can change your growth curve overnight.

🧠 Voice AI is tough to fake – Real conversation needs more than an API call.
Delivering a fast, natural back-and-forth requires layered systems: memory lookup, tone control, real-time rendering, and low-latency streaming. It’s a technical challenge and a competitive moat.

About Ajay Mehta:

👽 Co-Founder of Portola, the creators of Tolan—an AI companion app that offers personalized, engaging, and fun experiences.

📈 Ajay is passionate about AI’s potential to revolutionize consumer apps, focusing on building emotionally resonant, interactive experiences. 

💡 “Something that AI really allows you to do is make a consumer experience that just feels like there is totally something on the other side that knows you, understands you.”

👋  LinkedIn and Twitter

Follow us on X: 

• David Barnard - @drbarnard
• Jacob Eiting - @jeiting
• RevenueCat - @RevenueCat
• SubClub - @SubClubHQ

Episode Highlights:

[1:10] Origin story: How Ajay and the Portola team developed the AI alien buddy app, Tolan.

[7:38] Cash flow: Why the Tolan team secured venture funding instead of bootstrapping.
[11:36] I, Robot: How AI is changing the app landscape and why AI companion apps are especially promising.
[16:36] Cost/Benefit: The costs associated with running an AI app forced Tolan to monetize early (but that wasn’t a bad thing).
[21:17] Onboarding excellence: How Tolan’s onboarding experience fosters deep personalization and long-term retention.
[28:08] Going viral: Why an effective TikTok marketing strategy can dramatically lower your cost per acquisition.
[39:34] A league of their own: Why competition is relatively low (for now) for AI companion apps.
[47:39] Race to the top: Raising venture capital and using the upfront cash infusion to iterate and beat out the competition (à la Duolingo).
[51:18] Tolan 2 (The Sequel): AI engines have the potential to be spun off into multiple app businesses.

On the podcast we discuss how AI is changing both what apps do and how they’re built, the relationship between price and retention, and why React Native apps monetize better than native.

Check out RevenueCat’s State of Subscription Apps 2025 report here: https://revenuecat.com/report

Top Takeaways:

📊 AI apps: Higher revenue per user, but differentiation is key

AI-powered apps don’t convert users at a higher rate, but they earn more per subscriber. People are willing to pay for AI-enhanced features, but success depends on offering real value - simply wrapping a chatbot isn’t enough. The best-performing AI apps focus on unique, high-value use cases.

💰 Hybrid monetization is gaining momentum

More apps are mixing revenue models—offering subscriptions, consumables, and lifetime purchases to appeal to different types of buyers. AI-powered apps, in particular, are finding success with credit-based systems that let heavy users pay more without forcing everyone onto a subscription.

⚡ Most subscription churn happens in the first month—act fast

A huge percentage of cancellations happen right after the first charge. Users need to feel the value of your app immediately, or they’ll turn off auto-renew. Strong onboarding, personalized engagement, and proactive retention strategies make all the difference.

⏳ 80% of trial starts happen on day one - don’t bury your paywall

Users decide quickly. The vast majority of free trials begin the first time someone opens the app, and if they don’t start one then, they likely never will. A clear, compelling paywall in onboarding is essential to maximizing conversions.

📉 Lower prices mean higher retention

Apps with lower subscription prices retain users at significantly higher rates. High-ticket subscriptions can work if the value is obvious, but in many cases, a lower price makes the renewal decision much easier. If churn is a problem, pricing strategy should be one of the first things to review.

About Jacob Eiting:

👨‍💻 Founder & CEO of RevenueCat, the platform powering in-app subscriptions for thousands of apps.

🎯 Jacob helps app developers navigate pricing, retention, and monetization strategies to build sustainable businesses.

💡 “If your differentiation is community, if your differentiation is distribution, like you have some unique angle, you’re serving a niche, and you want to be on both platforms, React is probably a really good place to start today.”

👋  LinkedIn

Follow us on X: 

• David Barnard - @drbarnard
• Jacob Eiting - @jeiting
• RevenueCat - @RevenueCat
• SubClub - @SubClubHQ

Episode Highlights:

[1:10] The power of AI: AI apps don’t convert users at a higher rate, but they do generate more revenue per user.
[12:28] Battle of the app stores: The App Store generates more money than the Play Store because there are more iOS users (not because Android users pay less).

[18:20] Hybrid vs native: A wider range of development frameworks is lowering the barrier to entry for app developers.

[24:12] Downward slide: Retention rates are declining year over year (but that’s to be expected).

[26:51] Failure to launch?: One out of every 20 apps makes more than $9,000/month one year after launching.

[34:37] Diversifying revenue: More apps are experimenting with hybrid monetization strategies, combining monthly subscriptions with consumables and lifetime subscriptions.

[39:53] Press start: 80% of free trials start the day users first open the app.

[42:13] End of the line: Cancellations of annual subscriptions happen most commonly in the first and last month.

[45:12] The price isn’t right: Lower-priced apps retain users better than higher-priced apps.

[54:20] Last touch: Active renewal rates are highest for annual subscriptions and lowest for weekly subscriptions.

This episode is shorter than usual and will be featured in RevenueCat’s State of Subscription Apps report.

On the podcast: top strategies for paywall optimization, how storytelling during onboarding impacts conversions, and why framing the user journey leading to the paywall is more critical than the paywall itself.

Top Takeaways:

🔐 Your paywall is only as good as the story leading up to it

A well-placed paywall won’t convert if users aren’t primed to see value. Guide users with a clear onboarding flow that tells a story, setting expectations and building excitement before they reach the paywall. Strong hooks, a compelling introduction, and a high-value moment just before the paywall can significantly increase conversions.

💰Use loss aversion to reinforce premium value

Encourage users to engage with premium features before showing the paywall. By having them set up key features or preferences first, you create a sense of ownership - so when they hit the paywall, rejecting the offer feels like losing access to something they’ve already invested in. This approach taps into sunk cost fallacy to boost conversions.

📱Test multi-screen paywalls for better engagement

Instead of cramming all your selling points into a single paywall, break them up into multiple screens. Showing benefits, pricing, and feature comparisons step by step can increase trial opt-ins - Mimo saw a 60% lift using this method. This also blurs the line between onboarding and monetization, giving users more time to absorb the value of upgrading.

About Sylvain Gauchet:

🌐 Director of Revenue Strategy, US at Babbel, specializing in mobile growth, app marketing, and revenue optimization for a leading language learning platform.

🛠️ Sylvain brings deep expertise in crafting data-driven growth strategies, leveraging mobile marketing, app store optimization, and curated insights to drive customer acquisition and retention. He is also the creator of GrowthGems.co, a newsletter for growth practitioners.

💡 "It's not just about optimizing the paywall—it's about the entire journey leading up to it. The story you tell through onboarding and the context you create before the paywall are what truly drive conversions. Without that, even the best-designed paywall won't perform as well as it could."

👋 Connect with Sylvain on LinkedIn!

Resources:

• Growth Gems
• App Growth Annual Conference

Follow us on X: 

• David Barnard - @drbarnard
• Jacob Eiting - @jeiting
• RevenueCat - @RevenueCat
• SubClub - @SubClubHQ

This episode is shorter than usual and will be featured in RevenueCat’s State of Subscription Apps report.

On the podcast: The state of major acquisition channels in 2025, how improved measurement is boosting confidence in ad spend, and why Reddit might be your next top-performing user acquisition channel.

Top Takeaways:

📡 Signal recovery is improving ad efficiency

iOS signal loss made UA harder, but advanced self-attributing networks (SRNs) on TikTok, Meta, and Snapchat are restoring key data points. Apple Search Ads now supports view-through attribution, helping capture conversions that might have been missed.

🌐 Web-to-app funnels create new acquisition opportunities

More apps are using landing pages and web subscriptions to capture high-intent users before directing them to the app. Meta and Google Ads support these flows, allowing apps to bypass platform fees and test more flexible pricing strategies.

🔍Reddit and alternative channels are gaining traction

Reddit is investing in app install campaigns, making it an overlooked but promising UA channel - especially for niche communities. AppsFlyer data shows growing spend across multiple platforms, as confidence in attribution continues to improve.

About Shane Ly:

📱 Solutions Architect at AppsFlyer, specializing in mobile attribution and user acquisition strategies for subscription apps.

📈 Shane helps companies make sense of their ad spend, optimize attribution across channels like Meta, Google, TikTok, and Reddit, and turn better data into smarter marketing decisions.

💡 "Having a good pipeline for how to notify that a subscription was actually done back into this measurement partner—reason for that is we need to effectively know where did that user come from and did they actually convert or did they actually subscribe?"

👋 Connect with Shane on LinkedIn!


Resources: 

• AppsFlyer website

Follow us on X: 

• David Barnard - @drbarnard
• Jacob Eiting - @jeiting
• RevenueCat - @RevenueCat
• SubClub - @SubClubHQ

This episode is shorter than usual and will be featured in RevenueCat’s State of Subscription Apps report.

On the podcast: maximizing success with web subscriptions, how payment flexibility creates better user experiences, and why making cancellations difficult can do more harm than good.

Top Takeaways:

💳Web subscriptions aren’t just a cost-saving play - they’re a growth opportunity
Many apps start exploring web payments to avoid platform fees, but the real advantage is flexibility. The web allows for custom billing models, deeper pricing experiments, and new user acquisition channels, especially for high-intent verticals like health, fitness, and education.

🛠️Optimize the entire funnel - not just the paywall
Successful web-first apps think beyond conversion. They experiment heavily with onboarding flows, checkout experiences, and post-purchase retention tactics like cancellation flows and downgrade options to reduce churn and maximize lifetime value.

🏆Leverage win-backs and flexible pricing to keep users engaged
With more control over pricing and communication, web subscriptions open up retention opportunities that aren’t possible in the app stores. Offering discounted renewals, pausing options, or money-back guarantees can significantly improve customer satisfaction and long-term retention.

About Lucas Lovell:

📑 VP of Product at Paddle, focused on optimizing web-based billing and payment solutions for subscription apps.

📈 Lucas has deep expertise in monetization strategy, retention tooling, and payment flexibility, helping mobile app companies maximize revenue and customer lifetime value beyond the app stores.

💡 "The web is giving you opportunity and flexibility and tooling to do things that you are unable to do in the App Store, and that's the unlock that people are realizing when they come to the web. They're coming for the fees and staying for the flexibility."

👋 Connect with Lucas on LinkedIn!

Resources:

• Paddle website

Follow us on X: 

• David Barnard - @drbarnard
• Jacob Eiting - @jeiting
• RevenueCat - @RevenueCat
• SubClub - @SubClubHQ

This episode is shorter than usual and will be featured in RevenueCat’s State of Subscription Apps report.

On the podcast: diversifying revenue beyond subscriptions, what Google Play’s data reveals about buyer behavior, and why lower price points can actually increase total revenue. 

📈Expand beyond subscriptions to capture new buyers
Many users in emerging markets prefer one-time purchases over subscriptions, especially in categories like social, dating, and entertainment. Introducing consumable IAPs (e.g., class packs in fitness apps or AI-generated content credits) can increase buyer volume without cannibalizing existing subscriptions.

🌍Use localized pricing and alternative payment methods
Pricing that works in the U.S. or Europe may be too high in emerging markets, where prices are 40% lower on average. Google Play data shows that adapting to local purchasing power - with regional pricing, installment payments, and alternative payment methods - can boost conversions and overall revenue.

⚡Optimize purchase flows to reduce friction and increase LTV
Too many pricing options can overwhelm users and delay decisions. Instead, introduce the right offer at the right moment based on user behavior signals. Google Play’s benchmarking tools and Play Console analytics help developers fine-tune pricing, offers, and subscription models for higher conversions and long-term retention.

About Tammy Taw:

📱 Product & Business Growth Consultant on the Google Play team, specializing in helping app developers optimize monetization and diversify revenue streams.

📊 Tammy specializes in analyzing buyer behavior and guiding app developers in optimizing subscriptions, in-app purchases, and hybrid models for sustainable growth.

💡 "No one solution fits all users—you need revenue diversification strategies. Once you’ve saturated your subscription model, it’s time to explore consumables and one-time purchases to reach new buyer segments."

👋 Connect with Tammy on LinkedIn!

Resources:

• Google

Follow us on X: 

• David Barnard - @drbarnard
• Jacob Eiting - @jeiting
• RevenueCat - @RevenueCat
• SubClub - @SubClubHQ

This episode is shorter than usual and will be featured in RevenueCat’s State of Subscription Apps report.

On the podcast: why some apps see 30 times higher revenue on iOS versus Android, the challenges of running a business on multiple platforms, and why you should consider offering a free Android device to employees.

📱 Android expands global reach, but iOS drives early traction

iOS dominates in U.S. and premium markets, making it the best platform for an initial launch. Android, however, is essential for expanding globally, especially in emerging markets where adoption is higher. Apps that target international scale should prioritize localization and pricing strategies for Android users.

💸 User behavior and revenue potential vary by platform

Monetization differs significantly - photo apps see up to 30x higher revenue per user on iOS due to Apple's stronger photography brand and higher user spending. However, on Android, business-oriented users spend more when an app directly impacts their income, making B2B and productivity apps strong contenders for success.

💡 Android's lower fees and customization offer strategic advantages

Google Play charges 15% on all subscriptions, compared to Apple’s 30% initially (dropping to 15% after the first year). This means Android revenue can have higher margins despite lower ARPU. Additionally, Android offers more flexibility in tracking, design, and experimentation - giving developers greater control over app performance and user experience.

About Matt Rouif:

📸 Co-Founder and CEO of Photoroom, leading innovation in AI-powered photo editing and automation for businesses and creators.

📊 Matt specializes in scaling mobile apps across iOS and Android, optimizing monetization strategies, and overcoming platform-specific challenges to drive sustainable subscription growth.

💡 "As a business owner, it doesn’t matter. There’s no filter on if you’re an iOS or Android person. There's actually no bias. And so that's why at the end of the day everyone is working."

👋 Connect with Matt on LinkedIn!

Resources:

• Photoroom website

Follow us on X: 

• David Barnard - @drbarnard
• Jacob Eiting - @jeiting
• RevenueCat - @RevenueCat
• SubClub - @SubClubHQ

This episode is shorter than usual and will be featured in RevenueCat’s State of Subscription Apps report.

On the podcast: why optimizing for user success drives more revenue than conversion hacks, how to maximize the impact of annual plans, and why relying too heavily on discounts is a trap.

Top Takeaways

🏋️‍♂️Segment early to acquire the right users

Long-term retention starts before users even download your app. Ladder segments potential users through quiz-based onboarding, tailoring messaging and acquisition strategies to fitness personas. Speaking to the right audience from the start leads to higher engagement and better retention.

✅Optimize trial experience for activation, not just conversion

Instead of pushing for immediate sign-ups, Ladder removes credit card barriers and focuses on getting users to complete their first workouts. Those who finish at least two workouts in the trial are far more likely to convert and remain subscribers long-term.

📊Match pricing offers to user engagement

Not all trial users should see the same offer. Ladder segments post-trial users based on their workout completion history. Engaged users are encouraged to commit to annual plans, while inactive users see monthly offers with first-month discounts to lower the barrier to entry.

About Greg Stewart

🏋️‍♂️ CEO of Ladder, leading one of the fastest-growing fitness apps by focusing on retention-driven growth and user success.

📊 Greg specializes in building sustainable subscription models, prioritizing long-term engagement over quick conversion hacks, and maximizing the impact of annual plans.

💡 "Everything that we build, every feature that we contemplate inside the app is all aimed at incremental workout completions. It's all aimed at keeping you around the app, keeping you motivated to continue on and stay consistent with your plan."

👋 Connect with Greg on LinkedIn!

Resources - 

• Ladder website

Follow us on X: 

• David Barnard - @drbarnard
• Jacob Eiting - @jeiting
• RevenueCat - @RevenueCat
• SubClub - @SubClubHQ

This episode is shorter than usual and will be featured in RevenueCat’s State of Subscription Apps report.

On the podcast: the power of cancellation surveys, how social proof can re-engage churned users, and why making it easier to cancel might actually boost retention.

Top Takeaways:

📦Deliver personalized value through lifecycle marketing
Reconnect with churned users by personalizing content and recommendations based on their past interactions. Use dynamic segmentation to tailor messages that highlight relevant new features or content. Making users feel understood increases the likelihood of re-engagement.

💵Use targeted discounts wisely
Offer personalized discounts to price-sensitive users, but do so strategically to avoid hurting long-term revenue. Consider tiered discounts based on subscription history or engagement level. Avoid blanket discounts to prevent users from gaming the system.

🤔Provide flexible subscription options
Increase retention by offering flexible plans, such as shorter durations or the ability to pause subscriptions during off-seasons. This builds trust and reduces churn from users who only need the app occasionally. Flexibility makes users feel more in control and more likely to return.

About Caroline Walthall:

📈 Director of Product & Lifecycle Marketing at Quizlet, driving user retention, re-engagement, and subscription growth.

🔄 Caroline focuses on understanding churn behavior, leveraging social proof, and designing win-back strategies that keep users engaged.

💡 "You need to sort of win back and give them reasons to believe that you are invested and that you have enough ways to help them that maybe they haven’t tapped into before."

👋 Connect with Caroline on LinkedIn!

Resources:

• Quizlet

Follow us on X: 

• David Barnard - @drbarnard
• Jacob Eiting - @jeiting
• RevenueCat - @RevenueCat
• SubClub - @SubClubHQ