On the podcast I talk with Lucy and Nicole about how customer-driven iteration led Zumba from VHS tapes in 2001 to launching an app in 2024, their app2web experiments that boosted LTV by 17%, and how they are able to charge for content when countless Zumba classes are available for free on YouTube.

Top Takeaways:

🗣️ Listening has driven 24 years of product evolution

Every Zumba breakthrough — from instructor certifications born out of VHS buyer calls, to an app tailored for shy beginners — came directly from customer insights. The roadmap is data-led, not intuition-driven, ensuring they're always building what users genuinely want.

🎯 Subscribers pay for structured programs, not endless content

Zumba realized users were overwhelmed by free YouTube videos. By creating curated, goal-oriented programs, subscribers now watch twice as many videos and retention doubled. People will pay for guidance and curation — not just more content.

🚀 Your growth ceiling depends on beginner retention

With 70% of new users identifying as beginners, Zumba redesigned onboarding and UX to quickly move them toward completing three classes. Annual-plan signups reached 60%, and churn dropped dramatically. Early milestones for beginners unlock long-term growth.

🌐 Web checkout can lower conversion yet raise revenue

Zumba shifted paywall taps to a simplified web checkout with Apple Pay and Google Pay. Immediate conversions dropped 25%, but higher annual plans, better retention, and no store fees drove a 17% lift in LTV. Optimize for long-term value, not just instant conversions.

🔁 Speed of iteration beats legacy processes every time

Zumba’s lean, agile team tests and pivots relentlessly — from paywall pricing to removing unsuccessful features. Daily checks in Mixpanel dictate what scales or what’s cut. Moving quickly and iterating beats established practices and keeps growth steady.

About Nicole Page & Lucy Levy:

📱 Nicole Page is Senior Product Manager at Zumba, leading app development with a focus on user research and fast iteration. From onboarding experiments to web-first paywalls, she brings a data-driven mindset to every launch.

💡 “Every launch is a hypothesis we’re testing, and we’re never afraid to pivot if the numbers tell us to.”

👋 Nicole

🚀 Lucy Levy is Chief Consumer Officer at Zumba, guiding the brand from VHS to app, boosting LTV 17% along the way with innovative strategies and beginner-focused design.

🌍 Together, they’re modernizing Zumba’s global community.

👋 Lucy

Follow us on X: 

• David Barnard - @drbarnard
• Jacob Eiting - @jeiting
• RevenueCat - @RevenueCat
• SubClub - @SubClubHQ

Episode Highlights:

[00:02:44] From VHS to app store: How three Albertos turned dance fitness into a global brand.

[00:06:26] Community is the product: Why Zumba built its business around instructors, not just workouts.

[00:11:01] Research at scale: How hundreds of interviews revealed why “The Shy Beginner” is their most important user.

[00:14:30] Better churn than never: Why people leaving the app for live classes still counts as a win.

[00:15:54] Can’t compete with free? Yes you can: The Zumba app’s curated programs outperform YouTube.

[00:17:25] Double the value: Adding structured programs led to twice the content engagement and better retention.

[00:20:04] Cracking community: Why their first chat-based social feature failed and what they’re planning next.

[00:22:56] Test everything: Zumba’s app team operates with a growth mindset inside a 24-year-old company.

[00:25:22] Data before breakfast: Why daily Mixpanel check-ins drive fast iteration and culture change.

[00:26:09] App-to-web win: How a 25% drop in conversion still led to a 17% lift in LTV.

[00:30:19] Checkout optimization: Using Stripe, Apple Pay, and Google Pay to simplify the paywall experience.

[00:35:07] Push, don’t annoy: The team’s smart notification timing strategy based on user habits.

[00:38:44] Beginner, please: 75% of users identify as new to fitness, so the app is built just for them.

[00:39:01] Add friction, raise conversion: How a longer onboarding flow improved paywall success.

[00:40:51] One class to hook them: Why Zumba offers just one free class before locking the app.

[00:43:25] Three’s the magic number: Users who complete three classes are much more likely to stick.

[00:44:56] No trial, no problem: Ditching the monthly trial increased upfront revenue and annual plan adoption.

On the podcast I talk with John about the fascinating 40-year history of Apple’s developer relations, how almost going bankrupt in the 1990s shaped today’s control-focused approach, and why we might need an ‘App Store 3.0’ reset.

Top Takeaways:

🕹️ The 1980s: Apple’s developer DNA was born
 Apple’s earliest wins came from nurturing third-party developers, even spinning off its own apps to avoid competing with outsiders.

💸 Microsoft saved Apple (literally)
 Apple’s near-bankruptcy in the ’90s made them both humble and wary—forever shaping how they deal with developers and competition.

🍎 From “please build for us” to “we choose you”
 WWDC 2008 saw Apple begging for apps and evangelist emails on slides; today, it’s the other way around.

🖥️ The “Delicious Era” fueled iPhone success
 Mac indie devs (Panic, Delicious Monster, Bare Bones) built a design-obsessed, passionate community—setting the stage for the iPhone App Store boom.

🚪 App Store 1.0: A new world for indies
 For the first time, solo developers could launch businesses from home. No server costs, no payments hassle—just build, submit, and sell.

🏦 Apple’s rules got stricter as the App Store grew
 As the App Store became a services giant, the partnership vibe faded. Developers went from partners to “users” of Apple’s marketplace.

📉 App Store math now feels upside down
 Today, indie devs can pay Apple millions, while giants like Meta pay almost nothing. The fee logic and incentives don’t fit 2025.

⏳ The platform needs an “App Store 3.0” reset
 John and David call for a new era: lower fees, clearer rules, and Apple acting as a true platform partner—not just a toll booth.

🔄 Developer enthusiasm is Apple’s long-term moat
 Apple risks becoming a “legacy only” giant if it loses developer goodwill. The most important apps are still built by outsiders.

👥 A generational handoff is coming
 With Apple’s senior leadership nearing retirement, now is the time to set new priorities: empower developers, invest in the ecosystem, and ensure Apple’s platforms stay vibrant for decades to come.

About John Gruber:

🚀 Author of the Daring Fireball blog, host of The Talk Show, and co-creator of Markdown.

🍎 John is a lifelong Apple fan and is passionate about discussing all things iPhone, App Store, and developer relations.

💡 “I feel like Apple is dwelling on the success and the innovation that completely revolutionized the phone industry […] for too long and that they should move on and build something else new.”

👋  Daring Fireball 

Resources: 

• Bill Gates in 1984 promoting Apple Macintosh 
• Bill Gates on stage with Steve Jobs in 1983
• The Macintosh Way — Guy Kawasaki
• Cocoa Programming for Mac OS X — Aaron Hillegass
• Daring Fireball

Follow us on X: 

• David Barnard - @drbarnard
• Jacob Eiting - @jeiting
• RevenueCat - @RevenueCat
• SubClub - @SubClubHQ

Episode Highlights: 

[0:00] Apple Kremlinology: Why understanding Apple requires a special kind of obsession - and a long memory.

[4:58] Fanboys unite: David shares how his love of Apple led him from audio engineer to App Store developer.

[8:48] Turning point: John’s link to David’s iPhone mileage app in 2008 helped jumpstart his indie career.

[13:37] Joz, Phil, and Eddy: The developer relations and most of the App Store are overseen by three Apple execs who joined in the ‘80s.

[17:01] The crossroads: How Apple’s early decision to unbundle first-party apps in the ‘80s encouraged third-party innovation.

[21:25] Hands off: Why Apple’s decade-long retreat from building software paved the way for a thriving developer ecosystem.

[27:07] Vision parallels: John compares Vision Pro’s slow start to the original Mac - and explains why it doesn’t have to be perfect (yet).

[30:32] Betting on the future: How Apple playing the long-game is their biggest advantage in launching and sustaining new platforms.

[33:55] What comes after the Mac: The ‘90s were filled with failed next-gen Apple platforms - and it almost killed the company.

[36:47] Burned by success: Apple’s trauma from near-bankruptcy shaped their need to control developer relationships.

[41:13] The App Store revolution: Why the 2008 launch of the App Store wasn’t just a business move, it was a turning point for software itself.

[45:07] Developer momentum: How passionate indie devs and Mac software of the 2000s primed the iPhone for success.

[53:46] iPhone jailbreakers: Why the jailbreak community may have pushed Apple to launch the SDK sooner than expected.

[57:39] App Store 2.0: In 2016, Apple dropped some commission rates, opened up subscriptions, and kicked off a new era.

[1:03:03] Time for 3.0: Why David believes the App Store needs another reset - and a shift in mindset.

[1:08:26] Humility and hardware: Steve Jobs’ 1997 apology to a developer at WWDC still echoes - and it’s exactly what developers need to hear in 2025.

[1:13:30] Holding on too tight: How Apple’s fear of losing control is costing them developer goodwill.

[1:26:35] A legacy worth protecting: The iPhone isn’t going anywhere - but without change, Apple could become a legacy business as other platforms take over.

[1:32:06] Red flags on Vision Pro: Why developers aren’t building for Apple’s newest platform - and why that should worry Apple.

[1:39:18] The indie paradox: How small developers pay millions to Apple, while giants like Meta pay almost nothing.
[1:41:39] Fluke of history: Schiller once floated capping App Store revenue at $1B. What if Jobs had said yes?
[1:44:35] The trust gap: Could a more generous App Store policy bring Netflix and others back?

[1:47:08] It’s not too late: Why Apple should proactively change the App Store instead of waiting on regulation.

[1:57:26] Developer vibes: A simpler App Store (with clearer rules and lower fees) could renew trust and drive innovation.

[2:00:29] Bigger than profit: Making great soft...

On the podcast we talk with Eric about his journey from a failed first app to success with his second, the advantage of building for problems people are already talking about, and why he turned down a lucrative acquisition offer to keep building.

Top Takeaways:
🔍 Demand-first discipline wins
Testing for willingness to pay before writing a line of code can spare you five years of false starts. Quick interviews or landing pages that capture real purchase signals reveal genuine demand—an indispensable early litmus test against building in a vacuum.

🔄 Ride existing habits
Rather than convincing users to adopt completely new rituals, plug into behaviors they already practice. When pros were manually measuring holes on satellite maps, the real breakthrough was automating that exact process in real time—sidestepping the steep education curve of a brand-new workflow.

🛑 Bet on a long-term vision, not a quick exit
An early $75K acquisition offer can feel like a no-brainer, but sometimes the best move is to walk away. Turning down a strategic buyout kept ownership in entrepreneurial hands and paved the way for multiples of that valuation through continued iteration and growth.

💼 Treat side projects like businesses
A side hustle stays a hobby until you put real money on the line. Investing $5K in core data and infrastructure forced a shift from tinkering to professional-grade execution—transforming assumptions into data-driven priorities and unlocking deeper product opportunities.

🤝 Niche community fuel sparks growth
No launch strategy outpaces genuine community engagement. By sharing expert tips in specialized forums and social channels before and during build, small audiences morph into early adopters, trial converts, and your most effective brand advocates.

Resources 

• Very Good Ventures (Website)
• Seth Miller (LinkedIn)
• Curtis Herbert (LinkedIn)
• Eric’s story (RevenueCat blog post)

Follow us on X: 

• David Barnard - @drbarnard
• Jacob Eiting - @jeiting
• RevenueCat - @RevenueCat
• SubClub - @SubClubHQ

Episode Highlights: 

[3:24] If at first you don’t succeed: How (and when) Eric realized his first app, Undaunted Golf, didn’t have good product-market fit.

[7:28] Try, try again: Why Eric’s second golf app, Shot Pattern, was a success.

[11:21] If you build it: Instead of just launching on the App Store, Eric implemented a content marketing strategy to promote Shot Pattern.

[13:18] Back to black: How Eric’s $5,000 upfront investment in Shot Pattern unlocked some key product differentiators and paid off in a big way.

[20:23] Sell, sell, sell?: After receiving an acquisition offer from a potential buyer, Eric used RevenueCat’s app benchmarks to analyze Shot Pattern’s performance data and determine a rough valuation.

[25:06] Have a little faith: What happened when Eric turned down a $75,000 buyout offer and kept working on Shot Pattern.

[31:25] Video games: How Eric increased Shot Pattern’s annual revenue to $185,000 with video ads.

[37:24] Quit your day job: What would make Eric consider quitting his full-time teaching job to focus on his growing subscription app business.

[39:18] One-man show: Besides partnering with some content creators, Eric does most of the work for Shot Pattern by himself.

[42:25] Success story: How RevenueCat helped Eric launch and grow a successful app business that changed his life.

On the podcast, I talk with Charlie about why Liquid Glass represents a big opportunity for new and existing apps, Apple’s new on-device AI models and their practical limitations, and why the improved App Store Analytics complement rather than replace third-party tools like Appfigures and RevenueCat.

Top Takeaways:

🫧 A style refresh is a growth hack

A major UI overhaul—like Apple’s new “liquid glass” design—creates a once-in-cycle chance to stand out. Apps that ship the new look on day one dominate screenshots, roundup articles, and “App of the Day” slots. It’s free reach: adopt the guidelines early, respect the new hierarchy (avoid stacking glass on glass), and you can siphon users from slower rivals without a bigger ad budget.

🎯 Keywords deserve their own landing pages

You can now pin specific search terms to specific custom product pages. A running-focused page for “5k training,” a cycling page for “bike tracker,” each with its own screenshots and messaging. App Store Connect then breaks analytics down by page, turning guesswork into clear attribution. The result: higher paid-per-download and a shortcut to segment-level A/B testing—no SDK required.

⚡ Tiny, local AI = instant delight

Apple’s on-device foundation models aren’t GPT-4, and that’s fine. Their super-fast, private inference (with a 496-token context window) shines at micro-tasks: sentiment tags, quick text rewrites, lightweight image badges, feature-name suggestions. Treat them as edge helpers, not flagship features. For deep research or long context, hand off to a cloud model. Paired wisely, the mix keeps experiences snappy without sacrificing quality.

🪟 Build like screens will fold

iPadOS 26 finally lets apps run true windows, offload background work, and juggle tasks like a desktop. That’s great for tablets today and a rehearsal for rumored foldables tomorrow. Audit your layouts: do panes resize gracefully? Can a process finish if the user drags your window aside? Investing in this responsiveness now means you’re launch-ready when new form factors arrive.

🔑 Promotions should be measurable

Offer codes used to be subscription-only; now they work for consumables and one-time purchases too. You get up to ten trackable code groups (each with up to a million codes) plus UTM-style links and the expanded App Store analytics to see which podcast promo, TikTok ad, or partner giveaway actually drove revenue. You can finally run seasonal sales or affiliate deals without duct-tape spreadsheets and double down on what moves the needle.

About Charlie Chapman: 

👟 Senior Developer Advocate at RevenueCat and indie app creator behind a suite of iOS and macOS tools.

🎯 Charlie blends indie instincts with platform insight, translating Apple’s latest changes into real opportunities for developers.

💡 “Don’t build a chatbot around this (on-device models). But if you’re looking for a fast, free way to make your app better in small, thoughtful ways, the new on-device models are really interesting.”

👋  LinkedIn

Follow us on X: 

• David Barnard - @drbarnard
• Jacob Eiting - @jeiting
• RevenueCat - @RevenueCat
• SubClub - @SubClubHQ

On the podcast we talk with Charlie about why React Native has become the default for VC-funded apps, how AI is accelerating development cycles, and why speed of iteration matters more than programming language.

Top Takeaways:

⚡ Instant iteration cycles unlock agility
 React Native and Expo supercharge development by collapsing long build times into mere seconds. With tools like Expo Go enabling live updates, teams can experiment, test, and improve their apps in real time. This instant feedback loop fuels innovation, cuts dev time, and helps startups move faster than ever.

🧱 React Native unifies teams and code
 By choosing a cross-platform stack like React Native, companies can maintain a single codebase for iOS, Android, and web. This unified approach reduces silos, simplifies hiring, and streamlines development. The result is faster feature delivery, consistent UX, and the agility that startups need to scale.

📈 Iteration speed drives growth
 Shipping faster beats obsessing over tech stacks. Companies that iterate quickly can test ideas, learn from real users, and ship improvements faster than competitors. This leads to better products, higher retention, and stronger monetization, giving them a competitive edge in crowded markets.

🔍 Consistency across platforms builds trust
 Users expect apps to work seamlessly, whether they’re on iOS, Android, or the web. React Native helps deliver that uniform experience, aligning with modern product expectations. Consistency reduces friction, boosts trust, and enhances user satisfaction—key drivers of long-term growth.

🤝 AI is the co-pilot, humans set the course
 AI tools like Claude and Copilot are transforming app development, making it faster to scaffold code and build features. But the real breakthroughs come from human oversight—making smart UX decisions, handling platform quirks, and bringing creative problem-solving. Pairing AI speed with human insight unlocks the best of both worlds.

About Charlie Cheever:

🚀 Co-Founder and CEO of Expo, a platform that simplifies the development of native apps using React Native, empowering developers to build apps for iOS, Android, and the web with ease.

📱 Charlie is dedicated to empowering developers to create seamless, cross-platform apps with less friction. He’s focused on improving the developer experience by reducing complexity and enabling rapid iteration.

💡 “One of the biggest advantages of Expo and React Native is the ability to move fast and iterate quickly without worrying about maintaining separate codebases for each platform.

👋  LinkedIn

Resources: 

• State of Subscription Apps 2025 — RevenueCat Report

Follow us on X: 

• David Barnard - @drbarnard
• Jacob Eiting - @jeiting
• RevenueCat - @RevenueCat
• SubClub - @SubClubHQ

Episode Highlights: 

[1:12] Chain reaction: What React is and how Expo enables developers to use it.

[6:30] Positive feedback loop: How Expo dramatically shortens the product development and iteration cycle.

[12:08] React vs. native: Why React has become the default development framework for modern apps and websites — enabling seamless product iteration across platforms with fewer engineering resources.

[23:13] 1+3+4: How Bluesky was built for three platforms by one developer in just four months.

[28:07] All-in: Why it’s better to build with React from the start instead of developing a native app first and implementing React later.

[35:20] Cause/effect: Do React Native subscription apps monetize better than native apps?

[39:37] Coding smarter: How AI is speeding up development times and pushing developers towards rapid-iteration tools like Expo.

[58:52] Mobile shift: More and more people are consuming software on mobile devices instead of PCs… shouldn’t the app development process align with that shift?

On the podcast I talk with Tim about the importance of trust in web2app funnels, replacing free trials with money-back guarantees, and how they’ve found success with contractors after struggling with in-house marketing hires.

Top Takeaways: 

🔁 Replace trials with trust to attract high-intent users

A 30-day money-back guarantee can outperform traditional free trials—especially in web funnels. Paying upfront sends a stronger signal to ad platforms, helping them optimize for the right users. And when refunds are rare, overall LTV improves. It’s a bet on product confidence and customer intent.

🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Learning apps work better when parents are part of the experience

Apps that require co-use between a parent and child show far better educational outcomes and retention. Research shows kids learn up to 19x more effectively with adult involvement. It’s a smaller market—but a deeper one—if you design for it.

🏗️ Rigid methods can stifle product innovation

Strict adherence to frameworks like Scrum can turn creative engineers into ticket-takers. Giving teams room to rethink and revise—even late in development—yields stronger products. Empower developers as collaborators, not executors.

🌐 Trusted domains outperform in web-to-app conversion

When onboarding flows are moved to the web, conversion often drops—unless users recognize and trust the brand. Memorable, credible domains help users feel confident making purchases off-platform. Trust is the friction reducer.

🧰 Specialized contractors deliver more with less overhead

Instead of building an in-house team of marketing generalists, using seasoned channel experts—paid media, lifecycle, SEO—can deliver faster results with less management. It’s a scalable model for lean teams aiming to punch above their weight.

About Tim Dikun:

🧑‍🏫COO of Teaching.com, a suite of educational apps for children that’s been helping kids learn to read and type for nearly 30 years.

📖 Tim is passionate about building world-class educational tools that leverage both the power of AI and the parent-child connection.

💡“There's a lot of tooling out there for mobile apps that we just can't use because Apple won't let us — because it's a kids’ app. And I get it, it makes sense. It just means we have to get a little creative and find ways to get the information that we're looking for.”

👋 LinkedIn

Follow us on X: 

• David Barnard - @drbarnard
• Jacob Eiting - @jeiting
• RevenueCat - @RevenueCat
• SubClub - @SubClubHQ

Episode Highlights: 

[0:37] Storied history: How Teaching.com found product-market fit in the early days of subscription apps.

[4:41] (A)syncing up: Why Teaching.com disables Slack and Basecamp notifications in their team communications.

[8:12] Ch-ch-ch-changes: Teaching.com’s approach to product development encourages ideation and late-stage changes, rather than sticking to an arbitrary design.

[11:48] Intelligence (artificial and otherwise): Finding the right balance between AI and the human touch in an educational product.

[15:40] Testing the waters: Experimenting with higher prices, money-back guarantees, and annual plans to increase LTV.

[23:03] Context switching: Teaching.com’s experiments with web-to-app resulted in a 50% increase in trial starts and a 30% increase in paid conversions.

[28:35] Upselling: Increasing LTV with downloadable in-app purchases and physical products on Amazon.

[33:02] Land and expand: Increasing the size and LTV of your user base by serving additional customer needs.

[35:34] Kid-friendly: The unique challenges of developing subscription apps for children.

[38:36] Expert advice: Why Teaching.com contracts with marketing channel experts instead of building an in-house marketing team.

On the podcast we talk with Chris about how to do freemium the right way, drafting a customer “Bill of Rights” to guide product decisions, and why blindly following A/B test results can lead to short-term gains but undermine your business long-term.

Top Takeaways:

🧮 Data has limits
Short-term data can lie. When every experiment looks like a win in isolation, it’s easy to miss the slow erosion of trust happening in the background. Real harm often builds quietly and cumulatively — too subtle for A/B tests to detect, and too long-term for analytics dashboards to surface.

🧊 Freemium is a strategy, not a stepping stone
Free users aren’t just a growth channel — they’re often the foundation of retention, virality, and brand. The key is not just giving something away, but building genuine value into the free tier while monetizing a clear, meaningful upgrade. Trying to monetize too early or too aggressively risks killing long-term compounding benefits.

🚪 Fake doors, real insights
Not every test needs statistical significance. Especially in the early stages of validation, it’s better to move fast, fake the backend, and just see what people click. When the goal is to gauge interest, not measure retention, scrappy beats precise.

🛑 Dark patterns don’t scale
Stacking minor friction points, misleading CTAs, or unclear pricing might bump conversions — but it quietly breaks trust. Even if the data looks fine, something more critical is breaking: your brand. When users stop recommending you, you’ll realize those small wins were expensive.

📐 Principles over process
When companies scale, the instinct is to build more process. But sometimes the best way to maintain speed and quality is through shared principles. A clear set of product values — what won’t be touched, how users are treated — provides clarity, autonomy, and momentum across teams.

About Chris Hulls:

👪 Founder and CEO of Life360, the family safety platform used by over 80 million active users worldwide.

🔒 Chris is passionate about building products that offer real daily utility while protecting user trust, focusing on long-term value instead of short-term growth hacks.

💡 “The core has to give real value to our customers, not kind of fake value. Like real, real value forever for free, period.”

👋  LinkedIn

Follow us on X: 

• David Barnard - @drbarnard
• Jacob Eiting - @jeiting
• RevenueCat - @RevenueCat
• SubClub - @SubClubHQ

Episode Highlights: 

[1:33] A niche market: How the Life360 team found success by building an app in an under-served vertical.

[7:55] Free vs. paid: Striking the right balance of free versus paid features in a freemium app.

[11:37] A strong constitution: Why Chris and the Life360 team wrote a customer “Bill of Rights.”

[15:59] Data-driven: Why you may not always need to run tests on a large percentage of your users to get helpful results.

[22:17] Value ad(d): Creating helpful — not annoying — user experiences in ads and brand deals.

[29:12] Moving target: User privacy and the ethics of selling users’ raw versus de-identified versus aggregated data.

[38:31] The long haul: How to stay energized and excited working on the same product for multiple years.

[44:28] Unbreakable: Exercising caution with mission-critical features to maintain user trust.

[53:35] Future-proof: How Life360 is growing and expanding in 2025 and beyond.

On the podcast, I talk with Daphne about why skipping user interviews is costing you growth, how to bring your product’s ‘aha moment’ forward into your marketing, and why your assumptions about why people use your app might be wrong.
Top Takeaways:

🎯 Your app is a means to an end

Users don’t care about how many features you have — they care about achieving something in their lives. Apps that focus on the user’s goal, rather than their own functionality, become essential. Instead of selling the tool, sell the transformation: what life looks like after the user succeeds.

🧠 Talking to users beats guessing
Surveys are useful, but user interviews and review mining are goldmines for finding the “why” behind behavior. Understanding what users were doing before your app, how they discovered you, and what outcome they hoped for leads to sharper messaging, better onboarding, and stronger products.

💡 Emotions drive retention

Functional goals matter, but emotional and social motivations are often what bring people back. Whether it’s the satisfaction of consistency, the joy of social encouragement, or the comfort of belonging to a community, understanding these deeper drivers can differentiate apps and supercharge retention.

🚧 Activation is about showing early progress

The faster users feel they’re moving toward success, the more likely they are to stick around. That first “win” doesn’t have to be a full result — even completing onboarding, customizing a plan, or getting a small early insight can be enough to hook users into a habit loop.

📈 Monetization follows real value

Users are willing to pay more when they perceive clear, life-improving value. Understanding the different jobs users are hiring your app to do can unlock smarter pricing, better feature tiers, and easier upsells. The closer you align pricing with meaningful outcomes, the more sustainable your growth.

About Daphe Tideman:

📈 Freelance growth advisor and consultant helping subscription app businesses navigate various growth challenges.

💼 Daphne helps startups improve their activation, retention, and monetization strategies with the jobs-to-be-done framework.

💡 “So many apps are constantly talking about, ‘we have this feature, that feature…’ — but that's not why people use your app.”

👋  Website

Resources:

• Improve your Conversions by Finding Message-Market Fit (Webinar)

Follow us on X: 

• David Barnard - @drbarnard
• Jacob Eiting - @jeiting
• RevenueCat - @RevenueCat
• SubClub - @SubClubHQ

Episode Highlights:

[0:48] Job done: How the jobs-to-be-done framework should frame your product development.

[3:04] Survey says: Why the most valuable feedback about your app comes from your most engaged users.

[7:06] Emotional impact: Why appealing to users’ emotional and social needs is a better driver of conversions and retention than describing app features.

[11:07] Good communication: How the jobs-to-be-done framework can (and should) influence your app messaging strategy.

[16:16] Personal touch: Developing user personas, creating individualized onboarding experiences, and testing ad copy in Meta.
[35:56] Removing blockers: Why the up-front cost and time commitment of user interviews can save you money in the long term.
[43:25] Active users: How understanding your users’ jobs to be done can influence your activation, re-activation, and retention strategies.
[54:55] Show me the money: Identifying the jobs-to-be-done of high-paying users can help you improve user LTV and develop appropriate pricing packages.

On the podcast, I talk with Dan about estimating the ROI of product changes before building them, calculating your subscription app's growth ceiling, and why you shouldn’t make assumptions about what is and isn’t working in other apps.

Top Takeaways:

💸 ROI-first thinking helps teams prioritize what actually moves the needle
Every project has a cost - whether or not you calculate it. Estimating the ROI of a sprint, even with rough assumptions, can reveal when you’re investing $50K of dev time into a feature with minimal upside. It’s not about forecasting with precision, it’s about using basic math to avoid chasing ideas that won’t pay off.

⚾ Big swings take more than one try
Launching a major feature is rarely a one-and-done success. The biggest wins often come after multiple iterations - refining the UX, testing variations, learning from early data. Too many teams ship once and move on. But if there are signs of life, sticking with it for a few rounds is often where the real gains are made.

⏳ Churn math reveals the ceiling on your growth
If you’re adding 500 users per month and churn is 10%, your max subscriber base is 5,000. It’s simple math, but easy to overlook when topline numbers are growing. Looking at cohorts and long-term retention curves helps you spot when you’re approaching that ceiling - and whether you’re building a durable business or just replacing churned users.

🧵 Small UX improvements can beat big features
Rewriting confusing checkout error messages took just two days and lifted revenue by 1%. Polishing key flows like onboarding or paywall views often delivers a better return than shipping something new. If every user hits a flow, making it smoother can have an outsized impact on conversion and retention.

🚀 The fastest team wins, not the most secretive
Worried someone will copy your idea? Don’t be. The teams that win are the ones who move faster, not the ones who keep ideas hidden. Speed matters more than secrecy. Whether you’re validating a viral feature with TikTok mockups or running a rough A/B test, moving quickly lets you learn, adjust, and stay ahead.

About Dan Layfield: 

✍️ Founder of Subscription Index, a blog that breaks down the strategy, math, and real-world lessons behind successful subscription products.

🧠 Dan helps startups grow revenue by optimizing retention, reducing churn, and making smarter product bets rooted in ROI.

💡 “Your company will not be profitable ever if the output of your sprints doesn’t exceed the cost of your sprints.”

👋  LinkedIn

Resources:

The Hidden Math of Churn: Why You Can’t Scale Past $1M — Subscription Index blog post

Follow us on X: 

• David Barnard - @drbarnard
• Jacob Eiting - @jeiting
• RevenueCat - @RevenueCat
• SubClub - @SubClubHQ

Episode Highlights:

[1:03] Over/under — The importance of estimating the ROI of your product development efforts in advance.

[6:39] Making a splash: The pros and cons of building features in order to get attention on social media or in the press.

[12:49] Sweat the small stuff: Why fixing “small” issues with your user experience can lead to big payoffs.

[19:41] Hitting a ceiling: How to calculate your company’s maximum subscriber base based on your monthly new users and churn rate.

[24:03] The long game: Accounting for long-term users (“locals”) versus short-term users (“tourists”) in your growth ceiling estimates.

[32:11] Good use: How the degree of product-market fit for your app affects your churn rate.

[37:40] User activation: Mitigating churn by providing a great onboarding experience and giving users early wins.

[39:21] Money talks: Why auditing your pricing tiers and payment processing systems can significantly bolster your bottom line.

On the podcast, I talk with Ajay about the fresh opportunities AI is creating for app developers, how they built a cost-effective TikTok growth engine, and why being forced to monetize helped improve their product decisions.

Top Takeaways:
🤖 New tech, new apps – AI isn’t just making apps smarter. It’s enabling new categories entirely.
Apps built around real-time interaction, emotional context, and personalized content wouldn’t have been possible just a year ago. That means product-market fit can emerge in spaces that didn’t even exist before.

🎨 Design spreads – Great visuals are for distribution, not just decoration.
Memorable characters, animations, or interfaces can make your app instantly recognizable in screenshots, social videos, or App Store listings. Strong creative amplifies word-of-mouth.

💸 Monetization pushes clarity – Charging early forces your product to stand up on its own.
When you’re paying for AI infrastructure, you can’t wait to figure out value. Monetizing quickly reveals which users are getting enough utility to stick around and where the gaps are in your experience.

📈 TikTok still works – For the right product, UGC beats polish.
Test fast, post often, and watch what takes off. Lo-fi creator content can outperform paid campaigns, especially if your app is visual and easy to explain. One viral post can change your growth curve overnight.

🧠 Voice AI is tough to fake – Real conversation needs more than an API call.
Delivering a fast, natural back-and-forth requires layered systems: memory lookup, tone control, real-time rendering, and low-latency streaming. It’s a technical challenge and a competitive moat.

About Ajay Mehta:

👽 Co-Founder of Portola, the creators of Tolan—an AI companion app that offers personalized, engaging, and fun experiences.

📈 Ajay is passionate about AI’s potential to revolutionize consumer apps, focusing on building emotionally resonant, interactive experiences. 

💡 “Something that AI really allows you to do is make a consumer experience that just feels like there is totally something on the other side that knows you, understands you.”

👋  LinkedIn and Twitter

Follow us on X: 

• David Barnard - @drbarnard
• Jacob Eiting - @jeiting
• RevenueCat - @RevenueCat
• SubClub - @SubClubHQ

Episode Highlights:

[1:10] Origin story: How Ajay and the Portola team developed the AI alien buddy app, Tolan.

[7:38] Cash flow: Why the Tolan team secured venture funding instead of bootstrapping.
[11:36] I, Robot: How AI is changing the app landscape and why AI companion apps are especially promising.
[16:36] Cost/Benefit: The costs associated with running an AI app forced Tolan to monetize early (but that wasn’t a bad thing).
[21:17] Onboarding excellence: How Tolan’s onboarding experience fosters deep personalization and long-term retention.
[28:08] Going viral: Why an effective TikTok marketing strategy can dramatically lower your cost per acquisition.
[39:34] A league of their own: Why competition is relatively low (for now) for AI companion apps.
[47:39] Race to the top: Raising venture capital and using the upfront cash infusion to iterate and beat out the competition (à la Duolingo).
[51:18] Tolan 2 (The Sequel): AI engines have the potential to be spun off into multiple app businesses.