Talking to Mormons

ChrisI was listening to an October 2016 General Conference address given by LDS Apostle David Bednar.  Elders lets look at a talk given by Apostle David Bednar at the October 2016 General Conference.Elder SmithIs that the one titled, “I never knew you?” ChrisThat’s the one.  Elder Bednar began his talk with a passage taken from the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 7:21-23.  His point was to emphasize that, the Lord’s statement in the King James Version, “I never knew you,” was changed in the Joseph Smith Translation to read “Ye never knew ME.”  Then Elder Bednar recites in the King James Bible the Parable of the Ten Virgins found in Matthew 25:1-12, where Jesus tells the foolish virgins “I know ye not.”  And again, Elder Bednar explains that the King James Version was changed in the Joseph Smith Translation to read, “Ye know ME not.”  At the end of his talk found on lds.org or ChurchofJesusChrist.org – under references – you’ll find the footnotes to these JST passages.  Elder YoungThat’s why we believe Joseph Smith to be an inspired prophet of God. ChrisYeah well, it’s interesting the Lord inspired Joseph Smith to revise the word of God by taking out the incorrect wording and replacing it with what should have been in there.  But Elder Bednar makes a critical mistake in using the Joseph Smith Translation to prove his point. Elder SmithHow so?ChrisIf we turn to the Book of Mormon – which is claimed to be the “most correct book,” – we find the Sermon at the temple in Bountiful, where Jesus supposedly appeared to the Nephites following His resurrection.  Would you please read 3 Nephi 14:23? Elder Smith “And then will I profess unto them: I never knew you; depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”  

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ChrisNotice anything there?Elder Young3 Nephi 14:23 is word-for-word the same as it is in the King James Version of Matthew 7:23. ChrisExactly, including the same phrase “I never knew you.” Elder SmithLook, here in the footnote of 3 Nephi 14:23.  It cross-references another Book of Mormon passage, Mosiah 26:27 “And then I will confess unto them that I never knew them; and they shall depart into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.”  ChrisDo you see the mistake Elder Bednar made in using the Joseph Smith Translation? Elder YoungIt seems that the Book of Mormon agrees the King James Version and not the Joseph Smith Translation.  That’s confusing.ChrisI think it’s very clear.  You not only have two verses in the King James Bible – but also two verses in the Book of Mormon – which was supposedly translated by the gift and power of God – that differ with the Joseph Smith Translation.  Elder SmithI wonder why – If it was good enough for the Lord to be quoted in the Bible and substantiated in the Book of Mormon – why did Joseph Smith feel it necessary to change the Lord’s words in his Inspired Version?  ChrisAnd what was Elder Bednar thinking?  Why, is the footnote in Elder Bednar’s talk only referencing Matthew 7 and not, 3 Nephi 13 and Mosiah 26?  Elder YoungI don’t know. ChrisIs it because Joseph Smith copied the “Sermon at the temple” in 3 Nephi from the King James Bible “Sermon on the Mount?” Look Elders – If you have a modern-day apostle telling its members in a world-wide General Conference that the Bible is wrong and the Joseph Smith Translation is inspired – in spite of what was just pointed out in the Book of Mormon – as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, what do you do with that information?  

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Romans 7:4 “Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.”  He saying that as death dissolves the connection between a wife and her husband – so the death of the Christian to the law dissolves that connection between our Old Man and the guilt he carries under the law which makes it possible  then for the New Man to establish another union – with Christ – which like the first marriage was to bring forth fruit of the womb – the second marriage is to bear fruit of love.  Scripture teaches that with Christ being the groom – believers are His bride.  Romans 7:6 “But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.”  Can real love exist when people are told they must: obey the Sabbath?  Pay a tithe?  Wear certain underwear?  What to eat and drink?  Do this?  Do that?  Never!  We are to serve in newness of the Spirit – not in the old letter of the law.  We are not under a covenant of works.  We are under grace.  Romans 7:7 “What shall we say then?  Is the law sin?  God forbid.  Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.”  In other words, 

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is there evil in the law?  God forbid – no!  But there is evil in Man.  And as a result, the presence of the Law merely brings out the evil nature in human beings.  Remember we read back in Romans 3:20 “Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of  sin.”  Then Paul adds, just to make sure we understand that it was sin that did the evil.  Romans 7:12 “Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.”  Paul makes it clear is that it’s not the law, but the corrupt nature of man and his attempted failure to live up to the law.  In Verse 14, Paul addresses the state of tension that exists in every true believer “For we know that the law is spiritual (it’s from God and it is perfect): but I am carnal, sold under sin.”  It is true that as Christians we are dealing with a dualistic nature in ourselves.  We are spiritual and we are carnal.  Paul describes it like this in Verse 15 “For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.”  Ever feel that way?  I do.  In our renewed minds, we long to please God but in our flesh, we act in opposition – and hate the fact that we do!  Paul goes on in Verse 16 “If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.”  The very struggle with evil within us proves to us that we don’t love the evil – but that it is the law that is good and desired.  Verses 17-18 “Not then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.  For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh), dwelleth no go thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.”  Our desire is there – but we fail miserably sometimes in the application.   After describing Verse 23 the state of warfare within him between the spiritual and the carnal – Paul exclaims in Verse 24 “O wretched (means miserable) man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?”  Through this tension, we are forever reminded of our inability to overcome ourselves by ourselves or by any means other than reliance upon God.  And the answer – the solution to his own question he provides in Verse 25 “I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord.”  Before we move on to the next chapter, I want to make a comment about Romans 7:24.  For Mormons this statement of Paul may sound reminiscent of a verse found in the Book of Mormon.  The character Nephi, in the book of 2nd Nephi

Romans 1-3 – Come Follow Me

https://talkingtomormons.com/podcast-player/4434/romans-1-3-come-follow.mp3

We will now begin to study the epistles in the New Testament.  The manual introduces them by saying, “The Bible epistles are letters written by Church leaders to Saints in various parts of the world.  The Apostle Paul wrote most of the epistles in the New Testament – starting with Romans and ending with Hebrews.  His epistles are organized by length.  Although Romans is the first epistle in the New Testament, it was actually written near the end of Pau’s missionary journeys.” 

Paul boldly declares his testimony by saying in Romans 1:16-17 “For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.  For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.”   

Paul teaches us that everyone has received a knowledge of God.  Romans 1:19-20 “Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.  For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.”  One

What became of the papyrus scrolls – that the Book of Abraham was translated from.

Once Joseph Smith was killed in 1844, the papyri collection remained in the possession of his widow, Emma.  Remember she refused to follow the leadership of Brigham Young, and remained in Nauvoo with her children while the Saints moved west to the Utah Territory.

In October of 1880, the Book of Abraham was included in The Pearl of Great Price which was officially canonized at the Church’s semi-annual General Conference in Salt Lake City. 

The Introduction to the Book of Abraham reads, “The writings of Abraham while he was in Egypt, called the Book of Abraham, written by his own hand, upon papyrus.”

What became of the papyrus scrolls – that the Book of Abraham was translated from.

Once Joseph Smith was killed in 1844, the papyri collection remained in the possession of his widow, Emma.  Remember she refused to follow the leadership of Brigham Young, and remained in Nauvoo with her children while the Saints moved west to the Utah Territory.

In October of 1880, the Book of Abraham was included in The Pearl of Great Price which was officially canonized at the Church’s semi-annual General Conference in Salt Lake City. 

The Introduction to the Book of Abraham reads, “The writings of Abraham while he was in Egypt, called the Book of Abraham, written by his own hand, upon papyrus.”

Romans 1-3 – Come Follow Me

https://talkingtomormons.com/podcast-player/4434/romans-1-3-come-follow.mp3

We will now begin to study the epistles in the New Testament.  The manual introduces them by saying, “The Bible epistles are letters written by Church leaders to Saints in various parts of the world.  The Apostle Paul wrote most of the epistles in the New Testament – starting with Romans and ending with Hebrews.  His epistles are organized by length.  Although Romans is the first epistle in the New Testament, it was actually written near the end of Pau’s missionary journeys.” 

Paul boldly declares his testimony by saying in Romans 1:16-17 “For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.  For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.”   

Paul teaches us that everyone has received a knowledge of God.  Romans 1:19-20 “Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.  For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.”  One

What is justification?What does it mean to be Justified?Simply put, to justify is to make one right with God.  Justification is God’s declaring those who receive Christ to be righteous, based on Christ’s righteousness being imputed to the accounts of those who receive Christ.  And our placing faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ.  His sacrifice covers our sin, allowing God to see us as perfect and unblemished.  God see’s Christ righteousness when He looks at us.  This meets God’s demands for perfection.  He justifies us.

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Paul starts out chapter 4 by saying in verses 1-3 “What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?  For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.  For what saith the scripture?  Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.”   If Abraham was justified by his works, he might boast of his own merits.  But Abraham has no ground of boasting before God, because he was not justified by works.  Paul will prove that Abraham was justified by faith before he was circumcised; and that even his circumcision was in consequence of his being justified by faith.  Paul refers to the Scripture which says in Genesis 15:5-6 “And he (God) brought him (Abraham) forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.  And he (Abraham) believed in the Lord; and he (God) counted it to him (Abraham) for righteousness.”  This was incredible faith in that Abraham was old and his aged wife’s womb was dead.  Yet, he believed Jehovah’s promise.  Faith is a gift of God, extended to all, through the very existence of His Word to Man – we choose to either receive it or reject it.  Abraham accepted it.  It is God who will do the work.  And so, by us accepting God’s promises and believing them to be true – God is pleased.  We trust God’s Word that says, My sins are forgiven and God will remember them no more – that I am saved by faith and not by my works.   Next, 4:4 “Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.”   In other words, if a man were justified by his works, it would mean salvation was due or owed to him – he or she had earned it by working for it.  Works, Paul is saying, produces debt – not a gift.  When we work, we place the person we are working for in our debt.  And we expect payment for our labor.  When talking about salvation the question then becomes: Can any human being ever put God in debt to them?  How does Man ever place the Creator of all things – Almighty God – in our debt?  As Paul says, it’s impossible.  Let me quote from Spencer W. Kimball, President of the LDS Church, who wrote in his book Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 206 “one of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is  saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation.”  So far in Romans, Paul is presenting the exact opposite doctrine of the Mormon leader.  Verse 5 “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.”  I mean it can’t get any clearer than that.  And yet people of works-based, high performance-based religions can’t understand it.  They have somehow allowed their arrogant selves to believe that what they do justifies them – not so.   Listen carefully to these next verses.  Romans 4:14-15 “For if they which are of the law (those who seek justification by obedience to the law) be heirs (are saved), faith is made void ( or, neutralized) and the promise made of none effect (meaning, no more promise of salvation by grace through faith can be appealed to by those seeking to justify themselves by obedience to the Law): Because the law

What became of the papyrus scrolls – that the Book of Abraham was translated from.

Once Joseph Smith was killed in 1844, the papyri collection remained in the possession of his widow, Emma.  Remember she refused to follow the leadership of Brigham Young, and remained in Nauvoo with her children while the Saints moved west to the Utah Territory.

In October of 1880, the Book of Abraham was included in The Pearl of Great Price which was officially canonized at the Church’s semi-annual General Conference in Salt Lake City. 

The Introduction to the Book of Abraham reads, “The writings of Abraham while he was in Egypt, called the Book of Abraham, written by his own hand, upon papyrus.”

Is there any comparison between Paul’s vision of Christ on the road to Damascus and Joseph Smith’s vision in the woods in New York?  This will be our last lesson from the Book of Acts.  The manual states that Paul’s “errand from the Savior was ‘to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel’ (Acts 9:15).  In chapters 22-28 of Acts, we see Paul fulfilling this errand and facing great opposition – chains, imprisonment, physical abuse, a shipwreck, and even a snake attack.  But we also see that Jesus ‘stood by him, and said, Be of good cheer, Paul’ (Acts 23:11).”Paul had been falsely accused, arrested, and kept in prison for a couple of years by Felix the Roman ruler of Judea.  When Felix was replaced by Festus as ruler – Paul was brought before him.  Acts 25:7-8 “And when he was come, the Jews which came down from Jerusalem stood around about, and laid many and grievous complaints against Paul, which they could not prove.  While he answered for himself, Neither against the law of the Jews, neither against the temple, nor yet against Caesar, have I offended any thing at all.”  The high priest and others wanted Festus to send Paul to Jerusalem in order that he might be killed there.  The reason is because Paul had preached openly about Jesus being crucified for the sins of the world and he affirmed that Jesus rose from the dead.  Had Festus been persuaded by their rhetoric – it is possible that he would have been killed.  But God had promised Paul back in Chapter 23 that he would “bear witness to the truth at Rome,” and nothing was going to stop that from happening.  So, Paul was kept at Caesarea.  Acts 25:10 “Then said Paul, I stand at Caesar’s judgment seat, where I ought to be judged: to the Jews have I done no wrong, as thou very well knowest.”  Festus did not dare deny Paul the protection of the Roman laws, since Paul was a Jewish Roman citizen.  Acts 25:12 “Then Festus, when he had conferred with the council, answered, Hast thou appealed unto Caesar? Unto Caesar shalt thou go.”Days later, King Agrippa and his sister Bernice, who was also his unlawful wife,  came to Caesarea to pay Festus a visit.  This Agrippa was the son of Herod Agrippa who was the great grandson of Herod the Great.  He was known as Agrippa II.  Festus explains Paul’s situation to Agrippa and says that he insisted that Paul get a fair hearing even though the Jewish leaders wanted to convict him.  Acts 25:22 “Then Agrippa said unto Festus, I would also hear the man myself, Tomorrow, said he, thou, shalt hear him.”  So, the next day Paul is brought before Agrippa and Bernice.  Which brings us to Paul and his eloquent response in chapter 26.   Verses 1-3 “Then Agrippa said unto Paul, thou art permitted to speak for thyself.  Then Paul stretched forth the hand, and answered for himself: I think myself happy, King Agrippa, because I shall answer for myself this day before thee touching all the things whereof I am accused of the Jews: Especially because I know thee to be expert in all customs and questions which are among the Jews: wherefore I beseech thee to hear me patiently.”  Paul was openly telling Agrippa that he was blessed to have someone who could understand where he was coming from.  Remember Agrippa was a Jew, himself.  At Verse 4 Paul begins his actual speech.  He recounts his youth as a Jew and becoming an educated Pharisee.  He knew and lived and followed the Law and traditions of the elders.  Then the bomb!  Verse 6 “And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God unto our fathers.”  In other words, Paul is proving that what he is offering the world is a fulfillment of what they as a nation had long taught and believed.  And what was this that Paul was saying – God promised unto the forefathers of the faith – the HOPE of the promise!  The promise had been given all throughout the Old Testament that the Hope of Israel – the Messiah would come.  Paul was saying that God was true, a