Taylor Way Talks

Content Warning: verbal abuse and parental alienation

In this episode, we discuss some topics that listeners may find difficult such as verbal abuse and parental alienation.

Why you would want to listen to this episode…

For today’s episode of Taylor Way Talks, Dawn welcomes an anonymous guest who bravely shares her struggle interacting with a narcissist. However, more than that, our guest had endured a marriage and is now co-parents with this person. Despite everything she has gone through, our guest has come out of the other side more self-aware, knowledgeable, and aware of her identity. 

Who is this for… 

If you or someone you love has dealt with abuse from a narcissist, whether currently or in the past, it’s known that narcissists will employ every trick in the book to fuel their goals, not caring who they use to get there. With that in mind, this episode is for those who wish to know more about how narcissists operate, and how victims of this abuse can come out free from the shackles and be their own individuals. Our guest’s story is one filled with hope, and hope is out there for others who go through this as well. 

About Dawn Taylor

Dawn Taylor is the professional ass-kicker, hope giver, life strategist, trauma specialist, and all-around badass. Dawn's journey into helping others heal began when she took her personal recovery from the trauma she experienced in her life into her own hands. While at times unconventional, Dawn’s strategic methods have helped hundreds heal from traumas such as issues related to infidelity,  overcoming addiction,  working through PTSD from sexual, emotional, and physical abuse, as well as helping cult survivors thrive. Dawn’s work has empowered entrepreneurs, stay-at-home moms, and CEOs alike to be superheroes in their own lives. Having completed thousands of hours of training from many professional programs, including the Robbins Madanes Training Institute, Dawn’s blunt honesty will challenge your thinking, broaden your awareness, and help you achieve the outstanding results you are worthy of.

Connect with Dawn here at The Taylor Way: Consultation Call | Website | Facebook | Instagram | LinkedIn

Get to know Dawn on a deeper level through her book! Order Here

P.S. I Made It, is a powerful story that grabs you through its lack of pretension and honesty. Every page reveals another layer of curious wonder at both Dawn’s life and the power of hope that moves within each of us. Dawn’s hope is that you use this book as a resource to deal with your struggles. Share it with someone who needs it. We all want to feel like someone understands what it’s like to suffer through something and – come out the other side. She describes her life as “horrifically beautiful and beautifully horrific. 

Additional resources (related to parental alienation and narcissism)

Parental Alienation - an attachment-based model:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brNuwQNN3q4

Doctor Ramani’s YouTube account (videos that deal with navigation of your narcissist):

https://www.youtube.com/c/DoctorRamani

In Sheep’s Clothing:

https://www.amazon.com/Sheeps-Clothing-Understanding-Dealing-Manipulative/dp/1935166301

Divorce Poison:

https://www.amazon.ca/Divorce-Poison-New-Updated-Bad-mouthing/dp/0061863262

On YouTube, searching the term “Parental Alienation conference” will give out results of great videos and resources.

Thanks for listening!

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Views Expressed, Legal and Medical Disclaimer

This podcast (including any/all site pages, blog posts, blog comments, forums, videos, audio recordings, etc.) is not intended to replace the services of a physician, nor does it constitute a doctor-patient relationship. Information is provided for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional medical advice. You should not use the information on this podcast for diagnosing or treating a medical or health condition. If you have or suspect you have an urgent medical problem, promptly contact your professional healthcare provider. Any application of the recommendations in this podcast/website is at the listener/reader's discretion. The views and opinions expressed are those of guests and do not necessarily reflect the opinion or policy of Dawn Taylor, The Taylor Way and or its Associates. The before mentioned are not liable for any direct or indirect claim, loss or damage resulting from the use of listening/reading to this podcast or any website and/or any website (s) linked to/from it. Listeners/readers should consult their physicians concerning the recommendations in this podcast.

Transcript

Dawn Taylor

Hey, hey, hey, welcome to the Taylor Talks. I am your host, Dawn Taylor, and today we are talking to the anonymous floating head on my screen. What I mean by that is we have an anonymous guest today who wants to dig into a pretty deep topic, but when you hear it, you're going to understand why we're not going to show her face or use her name or any of those things. Today's topic is co-parenting with a narcissist - what I wish I had

known. So before we get started, I want you to know that while this is totally anonymous, our guest today is so beautifully vulnerable and willing to talk to people that if you do need to talk to her or we're going to give you some resources in the show notes, all kinds of stuff so that we can help support people that are dealing with this because it is horrifi,c that you can contact me through my website, TheTaylorWay.ca, and we will make sure that you get access to anything and everything you need. So welcome to the show anonymous head.

Guest

Thank you. I'm happy to be here.

Dawn Taylor

That's your name now, I'm just going to call you the anonymous head.

Guest

I can roll with it.

Dawn Taylor

Anonymous floating head, so you and I were chatting before this call came on, and we were discussing what the title of the show should even be of this episode. And it was

the abuse doesn't end when the marriage ends. Co-parenting with a narcissist. What you wish you had known how to deal with it. All of these parts and pieces. We're going to do this episode a little bit different, A) because you are 100% going to guide this conversation, knowing that we need to hold the anonymity of everything so that there won't be any trouble, because you do have kids and all of these things that we need to protect you from. So what is it that you would love to chat about today? What would you like to talk to the people about?

Guest

Hey, well, basically, I can remember 1.1s when I made the decision to leave my marriage. I didn't know the term narcissist. I just thought he was a difficult person to deal with. Somewhat inflexible, a little bit volatile, a little bit mean. So, I wish I would have known, if I could have defined all of the behaviors, flash forward ten years reading these books and thinking, "Holy shit, this describes my life to a T." And I thought by leaving the marriage, I could just be. I could finally be free, but I what I didn't realize was that a narcissist, when you hurt their pride, they lash out at you 100 times worse and the kids were two and four at the time that I left, and trying to co-parent with somebody who doesn't communicate well, doesn't admit, "Okay, maybe you are right, maybe some compromise is necessary." Or, basically, all they want to do is torture you and make you look like the bad guy, and it never stops. And sometimes it gets quiet, sometimes it gets way, way worse, and they use the kids as pawns to torture you.

Dawn Taylor

Which is so gross. So, let's backtrack a little bit. How long were you married to this guy?

Guest

Eight years.

Dawn Taylor

So what were the red flags? Because I think so much of with a narcissist is the gaslighting

that goes on, right? And we start to doubt ourselves, like, is this really that bad? Is this actually what's going on? Is this actually their behaviors? I hear this all the time with

clients and really doubting it, right? Because it's been so pounded into their heads what the beliefs are that they're forced to believe. Do you know what I mean? They're so verbally and mentally abused in that way. What were the red flags in the marriage that even got you to get to the point where you were like, "No, I can't do this?"

Guest

The biggest message that I would hear repeatedly was, "You're such a bitch. You have no friends. You're so selfish." You're this, you're that. And the other thing. So the good friends that I did have, he would try to turn it around and tell stories that say, oh, well, so and so reached out to me and said this about you or so and so talked to me about this and your behavior about this, which is complete bullshit. 

Dawn Taylor

Just lies.

Guest

But just trying to, I guess, create doubt in my head. So I didn't have that kind of social safety net. And he's, oh, the neighbors don't like you because you're blah, blah, blah, or every little thing that, if he was having a bad day for something, he'd have to drag me down with him or push me further down so he'd feel better about himself. So, quite often, the message was at night, this marriage is a joke. You're such a blah, blah, blah. And one day I said, "Okay, then go. I don't know what to tell you. You're not happy."  That was sort of the beginning of the end. Flash forward. I just realized that I was done and I never really felt safe with him. 

Dawn Taylor

Safety in what way? Mentally, emotionally, physically, relationally, financially.

Guest

All of it. All of it. It just didn't feel safe, and I thought, I would rather spend my life alone than have to deal with this. So, I was I was done. And we'd done the couple's therapy, which is awful, because when you don't realize you're dealing with the sort of human that has no boundaries and there's no end to their torturing, when you're vulnerable and you share stuff in therapy as you're supposed to do, they, when they see fit, they turn that information around and they throw it back in your face. Well, you can't be trusted because you think this, that, and the other thing. 

Dawn Taylor

Oh, my word. 

Guest

There's no winning. There's no winning. So, yeah, we were just done, and I was blissfully happy at that thought to have my own. You know, it's funny, when I when I was on my own, I actually ended up having more disposable income because he wasn't spending all my money. 

Dawn Taylor

And you're like, "Hey, yeah." So you said you were done. What were the next actions? What were the next behaviors? And go as deep as you're willing to go and vulnerable as you're willing to go with this. But I know there's so many people out there that are in these marriages, in these situations or have recently left their spouse male, female, doesn't matter, that I don't know if they see it or if they're like "I don't know what this is, what these behaviors are." And I really want today to be, like, almost like a guide for people to be like, "Okay, this is what you can expect. This is what happened to me." What happened next?

Guest

All right, separation process. It went relatively smoothly thinking back, but just he'd get volatile over the silliest little things, like, 50-50 custody of the kids, that was fine. Splitting everything, 50-50, it really wasn't an issue. But then, he'd fly off the handle over well, "I had to replace the paper for the printer." Just stupid, ridiculous things, that he's

not a rational time for anybody truthfully, but it was extra not rational and there were times where he would make threats like, "I'm going to lawyer up and you're never going to see the kids again." Makes threats that I knew that that's not a thing. "You can't do that. No, it's not gonna work." The threats were there and lawyer up. They were ridiculous threats. But if you're in that moment and you think for a second, like, "Oh, my gosh, this person can actually hurt me in this way, it could be quite scary." But I was just able to say, "No, that's not a thing. You're being stupid." And afterwards, it's 50-50 parenting. Yeah, this part was funny. I was thinking about this the other day when it was week on, week off. So when I had the kids, I was focused on them. I never scheduled stuff with my friends. It didn't have extracurricular-type things. I made sure that I was around to parent them. My off week, I would go to the gym, hang out with my friends, got involved with some community activities, and got to know some really great people. And interestingly enough, I realized how many true friends I did have. And I tell you, it was a hell of a lot more than he did. So, I still have moments where I reflect on, yeah, "Who's the bitch who has no friends now?" When I have a really great support group. Anyway, going back to the week on, week off and the weeks where I didn't have the kids, quite often they were scheduled. I had a lot going on because you got to fit in all your errand running with the kids when they were there. Well, he had emailed me and said, I have something going on. Can you take the kids this night? And I said, "No, I have plans." And the response I got back was, "You're so selfish. This is where your kids tell me you're never around for them." and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, which is totally not true. I mean, you can't tell me a six year old is saying, mommy's never around. Mommy's not there. They have, no, those aren't the children's words. And the reality was, I was always there for now. It's just I couldn't pick up the slack for when he needed free childcare, essentially. 

Dawn Taylor

Yeah.

Guest 

But I want you to remember that comment about "Mommy was never there." Because those are the words that my 15 year old threw in my face when when she was trying to convince me that I was such an evil human. Later on, it was all of the words that he threw at me throughout the years whenever he was upset with me, and there's the gas lighting there. Because it's simply not true that he told the kids how evil I was because Mom's never there for you. She's involved with all of these clubs because her self-esteem is so low. She just can't deal with the reality of the divorce. I just don't understand how she can't move on. Like, just insane stuff that he would tell them. Absolutely insane. And the complete opposite of the truth. Because when I left, I was able to, I did a lot of work on myself, went on some retreats and kind of got to know who I was again and regained myself, my true sense of self. I was able to stand up and say, "No, I'm not doing that." And call him out on some of his BS, and he didn't like that. He didn't like that at all. He just amps up the abuse and the debauchery. So, that's, those are the early years of co-parenting and I kept telling myself, Just a few more years. Kids are getting older, they're more independent. There's less communications involved. Because when things would pop up where parents have to talk, one of the kids would have issues in school. Well, it didn't matter what was going on. It was always my fault. And I was always well, it was always my fault. There's absolutely no compromise and just threats and bullying and one instance, he wanted to travel with the kids and needed a letter, a consent letter, and of course, you have to go to the lawyer's office for that at the time. So, I said, "Okay, well, I have a day off the end of next week. I will go then." Well, that wasn't good enough. He needed it now. He didn't trust that I would go then. So, I get this letter from his lawyer saying, "You've refused, blah, blah, blah. If you don't supply this letter by such and such a date, then these will be the consequences." So, I just responded to the lawyer. There must be some misunderstanding, because I told him I would have it by this date. I have a lot going on right now. I'm not going to drop everything and rush to a lawyer's office. 

Dawn Taylor

Everything to torture you. 

Guest

Yeah. Just ridiculous tactics to cause stress. 

Dawn Taylor

So kids were two and four, and I have seen your relationship with your kids for years. Like, you and I know each other outside of this. And, one of the things that also happens with a narcissist parent is they choose a favorite.

Guest

Yeah, right. They always choose a favorite child, and then they have their scapegoat.

Dawn Taylor

But also with that, one of the and I know you and I talked about this when it first was really, really happening was parental alienation, and that, you had never like, this wasn't even a concept in your head. Like, of course, there's, he's an apple. It's this super toxic he's out to destroy you. He's out to hurt you. I've seen some of the text messages and emails he sent. Like, just a vile, vile, human. Let's be really honest here.  Just not okay. Not okay. The things that have been said. But then the parental alienation took a turn.  Are you willing to talk about that?

Guest

Absolutely. So it started. probably. the day that the separation started. I just didn't see the signs. Little things like, well, talking bad about me to the kids. And I, of course, couldn't see the details. I could see a little bit of the evidence, like, "Mommy's not around." Blah, blah, blah. He'd remarried and insisted that the kids call his wife mom or some form of fashion of mom, essentially to replace me. There were, I'm trying to picture the chart and all the examples of, you know, your kid is alienated if they exhibit the falling signs. I can't, off the top of my head, recall that. But now, looking back, it was all there and there are some great books out there that I wish I would have read just to get in front of it and to combat it, instead of thinking, "Oh, I'm just going to be the proper co-parent, and I'm not going to say anything bad about dad." Just going to carry on living my life and completely ignoring what he was doing over there. But then when my oldest came to me and said, okay, I want to go live with dad full time and just come visit every other weekend, I thought, "Okay, well, what would that look like?" And just know that I'm here if you want to go for dinner, if you want to do this, I'm always here, but that full time influence was extremely detrimental to to our relationship because I wasn't around 50% at the time. Just to kind of combat those messages and not so much combat those messages, but to, I guess, present the example she could see with her own eyes that that was not the reality of who I am.

Dawn Taylor

I was going to say to actually show the proof of truth on the other side of it.

Guest

Yes. And so she got to a point where she said, "Well, I can't trust you. I can't trust you." And I'm just dumbfounded because I consider myself to be a very logical person. And none of what she was seeing made any sense at all, and teenage girls, they're tricky to begin with. But she gave me a letter spelling out all of the evil things that I had done or what she perceived that I had done and how I was never there and how everybody else was more important than her, and in my mind, I'm thinking back, "But what about the time I took you here, I dropped everything, I drove you to this place, and we experienced this these things, and we would hang out more than I think, more than anybody, her and I would hang out." So, it was just completely bizarre that she'd be coming out with these accusations, and "I can't trust you, so I just can't talk to you." And she didn't talk to me for almost two years. 

Dawn Taylor

Wow. 

Guest

Yep. 

Dawn Taylor

So in the middle of, like, and she was already how old was she when this, like really when?

Guest

Fifteen, sixteen. We just totally stopped talking to you for two years. 

Dawn Taylor

It's a total support of her dad. 

Guest

Yeah. And during that time, of course, dad would reach out to me at the start of when she said, "I'm not talking to you. I'm not coming over this weekend." Her dad would email me to say, "Oh, I don't know what's going on between you and and you and the child. What can I do to help? What do you think is going on?" So I would share. Stupid me, I would share some of my thoughts and say, "You know what? I would really like it if her and I could maybe go see a therapist together and work this out, because not talking is not a way of resolving an issue." That's not how you get over things. That's not how you figure things out. You communicate, you share your feelings, you share your hurts, and you work it out. Not the opposite. Well, he would take my words, and he would go to her and say, "Oh, we've had some really great talks, and mom thinks you need therapy." No, that's not what I said. I said, "I can go together to work on this and talk it out with the help of a professional." Not she needs therapy, but this is how he would twist my words around to make me look like an even worse bad guy. Well, that certainly didn't help, so I clued in pretty quick. Okay, well, I just have to give him absolutely nothing. Absolutely nothing. At this point, I was researching Parental Alienation because it was a coworker of mine said, oh, this sounds like Parental Alienation. She's also going through a really special divorce.

Dawn Taylor

Oh, boy. 

Guest

And I started looking into it. And I think I listened to every single YouTube video from the Parental Alienation symposium from over the years.

Dawn Taylor

Wow. 

Guest

And I thought, "Holy crap, this sounds like my life! This is exactly what's going on!" And so that's what I learned. You say nothing, you give them absolutely zero fuel that they

can turn around and hurt you. I think the term is gray rock, where it's. you're just an unemotional. You simply exist and you don't attract their attention so they can abuse you more. You just exist. So he sends me an email. It's maximum six word response. Maximum. If it can be done in one, it can be done in one. 

Dawn Taylor

And it can gauge. 

Guest

Do not share. Do not share anything about your thoughts, your feelings, none of it. 

Dawn Taylor

Nothing. Well, and what's amazing is the push-pull aspect of it, where they'll pull you and manipulate you to think that they've changed or maybe this isn't going to be different or this time, this time they're not going to act that way, and I remember hearing a speaker talk about it one time, and they said "I don't think you can actually fully understand the cruelty of a narcissist because it's so unfathomable to a normal, average, everyday person to what level they will go." 

Guest

Exactly.

Dawn Taylor

That you can't comprehend what is actually going on in their brain. You can't. So

as much as it's like, "Oh, but they're being nice to me." or, "Oh, but they're being kind to me." or, "Oh, but they're..." No, you are literally a pawn in their game, and they're moving you around the way that they need to to get the result that they need. 

Guest

Yeah. And during that time, over the two years that she was staying with her dad, she got angrier with me because of the things that he would say that I had done. So, every little thing that he perceived how I've wronged him, he would share that at the dinner table, I'm sure, to say, "Oh, well, mom is blah, blah, blah." Maybe I couldn't drive  my youngest over to Dad's house at that time because who knows what the circumstances were. I could drive at this time, but not this. Because, interesting how I have a life and responsibilities too.

Dawn Taylor

What?

Guest

Exactly. You're supposed to drop everything and be 100% available because they're busy. And when you can't, just once, "You're so selfish, because you just can't accommodate." But, meanwhile they're less accommodating, such as life.

Dawn Taylor

Wild. So your oldest was the favorite?

Guest

Yeah. He would rely on her even from the beginning. I noticed a change in her behavior at the age of about six where she started acting more of a parent to her younger brother, which was out of character and odd. So he had already placed her in a higher level, I believe, to be her. They were equals. So they would have inappropriate conversations about responsibilities or, I guess, probably putting me down at the end of it. Or he was sharing too much of his personal life and just emotions with her that made her believe that she was higher up in the family hierarchy than what she was.

Dawn Taylor

Yeah. 

Guest

And that's how she began speaking to me. And I would have to, while we were still talking, I would quite often catch myself saying, "Hi, I'm Mom. Have we met? I got this. Settle down, know your role." Because she believed herself to be, more of a, well, more of a parental figure. 

Dawn Taylor

It's way different. 

Guest

The piece of crap that was just sort of to be dealt with. 

Dawn Taylor

So with having, in that relationship with your kids even, and their relationship with each other, your youngest relationship with dad, what did you see as the difference in those behaviors? So, obviously, the oldest, he'd elevated and put on this pedestal and put in this place of authority over the younger sibling and, like, very inappropriate. But what were the behaviors to your youngest? 

Guest

So, of course, with my daughter, to my son, she would boss him around in an inappropriate way because she felt like more of a parent. So for years, their relationship was well, they didn't get along, of course, and as far as the relationship with dad and my son, or our son, I should say, I always sensed there was a difficulty in them connecting, and I would often get emails from dad going, "There's something wrong with him because he's not engaging the family." The relationship was always strained, and essentially, he could do nothing right. He became the troublesome middle child. Um, when they, him and his new wife, had new babies and yeah, my son became yeah, essentially the troublesome middle child that didn't feel welcome in his own home over at Dad's house. You know, he didn't, he wasn't, I guess, the easy babysitter, so just sort of in the way. 

Dawn Taylor

Do you think he saw it, right? Like, as a child? My mom wasn't a narcissist, but my mom had favorites, very defined favorites, and it was so obvious.  Like, ridiculously obvious to anyone who was watching that it was not me, right.

Dawn Taylor

And I knew it. And even if I didn't psychologically have, like, "Oh, my mother disconnected from me, and she didn't know how to love me." You're not thinking that as a kid. But I always, to the core of my being was like, "I don't think my mom will ever actually love me." I don't think that she'll like, I'll never be her chosen one. I'll never be that person. And it doesn't matter what I do. It's never going to be enough. So why am I trying so hard? 

Guest

My son had exhibited some pretty high anxiety sort of behaviors throughout the years. And when he decided, "You know what? Well, if my sister is going to live full time with dad, I think I'd like to stay full time with you." Every other weekend, drop them off, make sure you ever want to talk to dad, you ever want to go up for dinner, you're more than welcome. So I always kind of encourage that relationship. But he opted to stay with us and just visit every other weekend. And interestingly enough, the anxiety levels diminished substantially. They didn't go away entirely, but on a daily basis, he was able to cope. Got fewer calls from the principal 's office. I can remember one instance, this might help explain. He was too sick to go to school, and it was swap day, so I went to drop him off at dad's house. And you picture this six year old boy, standing on the front step, and I'm sitting in the car watching him going, “Why aren't you going in?” Well, poor kid couldn't remember the door code to let himself in. And he was terrified of ringing the doorbell because it would wake up the baby or whatever it was. Because after a while, I gotten out of the car and said, "What's going on?" And he said, "Well, I can't ring the doorbell." And he just stood there, terrified. And I just, it hurt my heart so bad to see this kid that was terrified to enter their own home. So, of course, being the parent, I did. I rang the doorbell twice. All right, stepmother. I've given him cough syrup. Here we go. So he, I think that explains a lot about how he felt and just not being entirely welcomed in that house he was afraid to go in. So, over the years, I've still encouraged him to go over to, every other weekend. If there's another opportunity, go here. But now, dad and the new family, they've taken multiple holidays. They've taken their new family to Disneyland.  Is the other one welcome? Not so much. He wasn't even invited.

Dawn Taylor

So they've just totally alienated him.

Guest

Blatant exclusion. Yeah. 

Dawn Taylor

What about his relationship with his sister?

Guest

During the time where she didn't talk to me? I'm not entirely sure what what their relationship was, because my son still go over there every other weekend. Now we're starting to come out the other side. It's very, very positive. Good. 

Dawn Taylor

Let's talk about that process. It was an excruciating couple of years for you, to put it

mildly. 

Guest

Oh, yeah. 

Dawn Taylor

Like, probably the understatement of the decade was that that was an excruciating few years. Can we talk through what went on and how it started to slowly shift? 

Guest

Okay. So the time that she was away, I spent a lot of time before I realized the science behind what had happened, just sort of trying to rationalize what could I have possibly done? Am I that bad of a parent that would call this and of course, you're afraid of how other people will see you. Because for people who do not understand this dynamic and this sort of abuse, they think, "Oh, kind of an awful parent." 

Dawn Taylor

Oh, the judgment. The judgment is ridiculous.

Guest

Yeah. So, you kind of watch, okay, who can I tell this to? Because people ask about your kids, right? And you can't say, "I actually don't know. I haven't talked to her in two years." 
Dawn Taylor

Right?

Guest

Yeah. So, you kind of got to navigate. Who can you trust, who will understand at the same time not be completely bearing the weight on your own? But it was interesting, the few people I chose to let in. And it was surprising, the number of people came back with, "Oh, my God, that happened to me. I have a daughter that I haven't seen in years. This is what happened." So I think it's a lot more common than people think.

Dawn Taylor

Which is one of the reasons why we're having this conversation. Yes. Is I don't think people have any idea how big of a deal this is and how big of a deal it is. In multiple ways, this happened to us. But from a weird standpoint, because my dad's new wife alienated us

from him, right? Like, this alienation piece is so huge, and people have no idea

how many times this goes on and no one's talking about it. 

Guest

Okay, flash forward to the coming back. So, I was planning to marry my long term boyfriend, who had been in the picture for many years, almost a decade. Over a decade at this point.

Dawn Taylor

I was going to say, you had a very long dating relationship before the wedding. 

Guest

So we were finally going to get married, and my daughter, at first, was, I want to help plan it. I wanted this, I wanted that. I can do the decorating because we were just going to have something small. And she went from that to, I think, a month later, of not talking to me and needing all this space. Well, flash forward a couple of years or a year and a half. And she didn't actually come to the wedding or she said she wasn't going to come to the wedding. She stopped by after this ceremony, just when we were having a reception with a bunch of friends and family. She stopped by after her work to drop off a card.

Dawn Taylor

Crazy. 

Guest

She was convinced to stay by a bunch of family members, my family and my now-husband's family to stay and visit because there was a bunch of people there

that she hadn't seen in quite a long time. And she did. I think she was reminded

that, "Oh, no, wait. If mom is such a selfish bitch that has no friends, why are all these people around? Why are all these people?" And I think some of the people there, they didn't share with me all of the details, but they had a couple of drinks and said, "I had a good talk with your daughter."

Dawn Taylor

Good. 

Guest

Maybe call her out on her behavior or whatever it is. S,o after we got back from the honeymoon, her and I, we went for dinner and we wandered around a mall and had a good talk, and she was in grade twelve talking about university, and she said, "Well, you know, dad doesn't want to let me go away to university because of my anxiety, and he doesn't feel I'll be able to handle it." So, I was able to have some pretty frank conversations with her to say, if anybody can handle this, it's you. "You are the most independent. And remind her that if you want to go to school in South Africa, guess what? You can go. Because you're a grown ass adult. You don't need anybody's permission for anything at this point. This is ridiculous." So, just our house became the voice of "No, you can do this. This is going to be awesome. This is the best experience." During this time, she was also seeing a therapist. And I think there must have been some breakthroughs and some, I guess some eye opening and some seeing of what the reality of the situation was because just her wording, I see that a lot that goes on in that side of the family is quite toxic. I see that, "You know, that dad doesn't necessarily know what he's talking about with university because he never graduated high school." Whereas our side of the family, we were all able to share experiences with her to say, "Oh, my gosh, first year dorm life. It was so fun. We did this. I met so many friends." And so we were able to instead of hold her back and control her, we were "No, go, see." So, she got accepted in a university that was quite far away, and I was absolutely thrilled because she can see the world not through my influence or her dad's influence, but see the world with her own eyes and make her own decisions  and live. I can remember people saying, "Oh, doesn't it? How do you feel about her moving across the country?"

Dawn Taylor

"Best thing ever!" 

Guest

Fly, little bird, fly!

Dawn Taylor

She needs to escape that influence.

Guest

Yeah, and honestly, it was the best thing for her to get out of that influence and just

meet other people and. You know, when you you're the out of the toxic house and

you can have conversations with friends and when you're around people who say, "Wait a minute, that doesn't make sense, you know, how did that happen?" Right? Because you don't know what you don't know. And she thought that was normal. 

Dawn Taylor

You think you know it all at that age. 

Guest

So over the last year, she's grown up so much. She's a completely different person. The relationship she has with her brother is 100% different, and they have adult sounding conversations between the two of them. 

Dawn Taylor

And how is your relationship going with her? 

Guest

It is 100% better. Actually, during her last second half of the year in university, she ended up her roommate, it turns out, was quite toxic and had some of those narcissistic type traits. And I was able to guide her through to say, "Oh, no, do not give her anything, and don't expect her to change because she won't." And it was a really great book In Sheep's Clothing. That's the one that I read that made me think, "Oh, my God, this is what this person is a monster. And he's never going to change because he's a monster." So I recommended her read that book, and it. I was sitting back going, okay, well, this will teach you a lot about your roommate, and if you happen to learn some wisdom about other people in your life but just people in general. And we've had great conversations in how to handle difficult situations with the narcissist in her life, which was the roommate, and don't expect them to change, and she's going to try to turn your friends against you. This is normal. But she's not this, yeah, that's what they do. She's not going to change. All you can do is get in front of it and, you know, just continue being you and your friends. They'll see. Or maybe they'll be one of her flying monkeys that just buys into the crap. But at the end of the day, you just got to be your authentic self and do not say more than one sentence to the roommate. Do not share anything. Explain to her what Gray Rock was. And so I got texts and calls on a regular basis. "Mom, I need your advice. What do you think of this?" Which to go from a teen that won't talk to you to daily texts.

Dawn Taylor

Was there was there ever a piece of you that was scared to respond to her, that might potentially alienate her again? Not responding to her, but in how to respond to her, what to say, because it's such a sensitive, like a very almost brand new relationship starting again.

Guest

Yeah. Well, we had really bonded, especially over this, how to navigate the narcissist. And I started sharing some YouTube videos about with one of my favorite, Dr. Romney. She's fantastic. So I would share a couple of links to say, oh, I just listened to this one. 1s I think it really applies. There was one video where it mentioned parental alienation. And we

have never addressed the year and a half, two years not talking. She says she doesn't remember, but I know, based on, again, listening to the Alienation Symposiums, every single episode of them, that when kids, when they come out of the alienation, they start to see they're filled with an incredible amount of guilt. And I will not make that worse. So the stance that I have taken is, "I will always be here. I will always love you." If someday, when she's 30 or 40 and we have a glass of wine and she wants to share when she's ready, what she went through. I will listen, but I will not push it. I've had friends to say. "Well, have you talked to her about this? What? About the closure?" And I said, "I don't need closure on this. This is hers that she needs to work through." I will not push it because I know, I understand the thought process, and she's a victim just as much as me, if not worse. 

Dawn Taylor

Oh, 100%. 

Guest

So, I'm not going to rub her nose in it.

Dawn Taylor

Every kid ever. Thank you. 

Guest

Well, knowledge is power, right? What's interesting now, though, with my son, the challenges are only getting worse with his dad. His dad has, at this point, all but disowned him. Which, he's heartbroken.

Dawn Taylor

I was going to say it's like the biggest double edged sword. Like a piece of you is

like, good, be away from him and his influence and all of that. But it's also the world's biggest rejection.  

Guest

I had dropped him off at dad's house for a weekend, and just a few hours later, dad

returned him. Boggles the mind of how a parent could ever do that to a kid. The

abuse, it never stops. I heard one day, um, trying to co-parent with a narcissist, it's like walking a tightrope with an elephant on your shoulders. And it's entirely true. Yeah. And I always just thought it was well, he was just a difficult person. But it goes beyond that. There's no end to the tactics, to the games. That book In Sheep's Clothing, it talks about the narcissistic tactics, and I think there are nine of them. I have received emails where he covers seven of the tactics in one paragraph, between the lying and the gaslighting and the projecting in one paragraph. And now that I know and I understand and I've come to expect it, I can receive those emails and I can sit back and I can laugh and go, "Oh, my gosh, so pathetic. You never change." And I respond with six words to say, no. That's not what I asked. All I need is a yes or no.

Dawn Taylor

Yeah, so and for anyone listening in the show notes, we will put links to the books, the YouTube videos, everything that has been mentioned here, so you can go check it out yourself. The symposium, all of it. Looking back, two things. One, would you do it again? Because I've often heard from people that it's easier to just stay in the marriage until the kids are raised, even when you're with a narcissist, to just suck it up until they're out of the house and then leave. So would you do it again? 

Guest

Oh, my God. I'd still be married to him. 

Dawn Taylor

But looking back at everything that's gone on over all of these years, the abuse, all of it, just all of the stuff has gone down, would you still leave and make the same decision?

Guest

100%. You would have killed my soul. I see pictures of myself from when I was still married. And when you look at somebody in their eyes and you can just tell that they're living, breathing, walking, talking dead. That's who I was. But when I let the change was almost instant. Like, I had people that I'd seen down the hallway in my work building, I'd seen several times. But when I left and I started well, I got myself back. They would wave and smile and say hello. I was a totally different person. I couldn't imagine it still being that person and being pushed down in every way, like what I've been able to do and achieve and the involvements that I've had with really great organizations that none of that would have been possible if I stayed. None of it. So, like I said, I was better off alone than with him. It just so happens that I've met my Mr. Perfect. Somebody where you can have rational conversations with, you can talk about your feelings.

Dawn Taylor

Whaaat? That's not allowed in a marriage! 

Guest

Back in the marriage, my first marriage, if I was having a blue day, which, as an introvert, sometimes I just need some me time. I need to read my book in the bathtub, I need to be myself to recharge my batteries. And even more I did that, it'd really get nasty and freak out.

Dawn Taylor

You left off talking about how with your new you, getting back to who you were and finding yourself again and having a soul really again.

Guest

Yes. And when you put that kind of healthy energy into the universe, you meet really great people, and people just sort of  well, yeah, it was transformational opportunities opened up for me. It was completely different. And even the neighbors that supposedly thought I was so evil, they come up to me and said, "Oh, we never liked him." But, also there were other people that they were on his side and would spy on me. That was also funny too, but you get to know who friends are.

Dawn Taylor

Well, and what's interesting is we all have narcissistic tendencies. Right? And this word is thrown around so freely these days, but it's the level of narcissism, and when somebody is very narcissistic, they actually don't believe anything's wrong with them.

Guest

Oh. They don't.

Dawn Taylor

Like, actually genuinely do not think anything's wrong. So it's interesting when someone who will even come to me and they're like, I'm pretty sure I'm a narcissist. And I'm like, well, you might have very high narcissistic tendencies, but you wouldn't be here talking to me if you were a narcissist, because you don't actually think there's anything wrong, right? It's so mind blowing to me, and it's such an issue, and people have no idea.

Guest

So to answer your question, I would 100% do it again,  I just wish I knew from the beginning what kind of monster I was co-parenting with, and I would have adopted the strategies of gray rock from the very beginning instead of  getting involved and trying to justify and rationalize my actions. So much energy over years has been wasted or ridiculous email chains trying to convince him that or whatever he happened to be arguing with me at the time, I just would have went, "Okay."  and disengaged.

Dawn Taylor

Do you think it will ever stop, like, as the kids are growing up and they're moving out of the house and becoming adults, or will he forever torture you?

Guest

I'm sure there will be opportunities to be honest, I really feel bad for his current life.

Dawn Taylor

I was gonna say I was gonna say, like, I can't.

Guest

She'll have to pick up the slack because there is less opportunity now with the older, she'd be living on her own, and I guess the dealings will whatever involvement my son wants to have with him, they want to work it out. They can work it out. I'm not getting involved with that. I will never  get involved with that. It's not my monkeys, not my issue. And there is absolutely nothing good that can come of it from further opportunity for abuse for myself. So I'm just not, um, but he's old enough. He can reach out. Kids have cell phones. They can call, they can hold. It doesn't need to involve me. So, someday ,maybe, there's less opportunity, certainly on a day to day basis. Not looking forward to weddings.

Dawn Taylor

I was going to say weddings and grandkids and all of those things.

Guest

Yeah. Not looking forward to that. We will get through it'll. Be we will live.

Dawn Taylor

And because you have a massive support system behind you.

Guest

Exactly.

Dawn Taylor

And a team of people that, we all know the truth.

Guest

My now-husband is fantastic and we can talk about all of these issues and I can be upset and it's okay. It's a healthy relationship. So, yeah, you can pay me to go back to that for like $10 million. I'm going to run. Run!

Dawn Taylor

Well, I just want to say thank you. Thank you so much, anonymous floating head, for being here today and for being so open and vulnerable about this and talking through this and hopefully giving people the courage, that little glimmer of hope that they can get through this, too. That if they're dealing with the alienation, there's ways around it, there's options, things can change, even if it's been years, and especially that it was worth it, that at the end of the day, it was 100% worth it.

Guest

And another message, if you're going through the alienation, just know that it's not your kids fault. They're not doing it to you, they're being abused. They're just as much as victims. So, don't hold it against them. And always be there. Always be available. Keep your social media open so they can reach out and find you, even if it's years later, because you never know.

Dawn Taylor

And it's amazing how, as adults. We start to see these things right? The farther and farther we are away from the influence of those parents, the influence of our childhood, the influence of the situational things, we start to see truth in things we start to see the other side. We start to have our perspective. Our perspective changed and often just based on what we see around us, but what our friends, our family, or people have experienced and it's never too late. There's always options. There's always, always, just leave those doors open. So, thank you again for those of you listening. I hope that you heard something today that really hit you a little hard. And I don't say that in a mild way. I mean, it in that you maybe need to shift something in your relationship with someone in your life, or that you've realized that you're not alone and that you need to make a big decision in your world. If you need support with that, please reach out. TheTaylorWay.ca is my website. Please please connect. Join us again in two weeks for another amazing topic. Please share this episode with people you think might be in this situation and don't know it, because it might shine a light on something for them. But, also check out the show notes at the TheTaylorWay.ca for more information and for all the contact information for me, because you don't get to know who today's guest is. Subscribe now on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your podcast. And if you love the show, please leave a rating and review. See you guys in a few weeks. Bye.

Content Warning: adoption, trauma and PTSD

In this episode, we discuss some topics that listeners may find difficult such as trauma from parenting and raising children

Why you would want to listen to this episode…

Jill Rempel and her husband had wanted children of their own despite having gone through pregnancy issues and other complications. With that in mind, they decided to adopt, but interestingly they didn’t settle with just one child - but instead, they adopted four! This is adoption from the parent’s perspective, as Jill details her story as a mother to four children that she’s accepted with open arms. It’s no easy feat and it’s been a tough road as a parent, but with the help of some awesome relatives and the power of therapy, Jill is here to tell us about her unique journey of motherhood and how it’s changed her and her husband into more caring and loving people.

Who this for…

If you were intrigued by episode 26 about Reese Rempel and adoption from the child’s perspective, then this episode serves as the perfect follow-up to it. For those who wish to adopt children of their own and are anxious about any roadblocks that would get in the way, this episode is a refreshing look at the perspective of a mother of adopted children, which at the end of the day, shouldn’t be treated any differently from biological ones.

About Dawn Taylor

Dawn Taylor is the professional ass-kicker, hope giver, life strategist, trauma specialist, and all-around badass. Dawn's journey into helping others heal began when she took her personal recovery from the trauma she experienced in her life into her own hands. While at times unconventional, Dawn’s strategic methods have helped hundreds heal from traumas such as issues related to infidelity,  overcoming addiction,  working through PTSD from sexual, emotional, and physical abuse, as well as helping cult survivors thrive. Dawn’s work has empowered entrepreneurs, stay-at-home moms, and CEOs alike to be superheroes in their own lives. Having completed thousands of hours of training from many professional programs, including the Robbins Madanes Training Institute, Dawn’s blunt honesty will challenge your thinking, broaden your awareness, and help you achieve the outstanding results you are worthy of.

Connect with Dawn here at The Taylor Way: Consultation Call | Website | Facebook | Instagram | LinkedIn

Get to know Dawn on a deeper level through her book! Order Here

P.S. I Made It, is a powerful story that grabs you through its lack of pretension and honesty. Every page reveals another layer of curious wonder at both Dawn’s life and the power of hope that moves within each of us. Dawn’s hope is that you use this book as a resource to deal with your struggles. Share it with someone who needs it. We all want to feel like someone understands what it’s like to suffer through something and – come out the other side. She describes her life as “horrifically beautiful and beautifully horrific. 

Guest Bio

Jill is a nurse, a wife, and a mom to four adopted kids who are now ages 17-23.  She has learned so much about loving kids who've experienced trauma and how that trauma has affected her. She wants to bring awareness and hope to other adoptive parents.

Guest Social Links

Email: [email protected]

Thanks for listening!

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Views Expressed, Legal and Medical Disclaimer

This podcast (including any/all site pages, blog posts, blog comments, forums, videos, audio recordings, etc.) is not intended to replace the services of a physician, nor does it constitute a doctor-patient relationship. Information is provided for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional medical advice. You should not use the information on this podcast for diagnosing or treating a medical or health condition. If you have or suspect you have an urgent medical problem, promptly contact your professional healthcare provider. Any application of the recommendations in this podcast/website is at the listener/reader's discretion. The views and opinions expressed are those of guests and do not necessarily reflect the opinion or policy of Dawn Taylor, The Taylor Way and or its Associates. The before mentioned are not liable for any direct or indirect claim, loss or damage resulting from the use of listening/reading to this podcast or any website and/or any website (s) linked to/from it. Listeners/readers should consult their physicians concerning the recommendations in this podcast.

Transcript

Dawn Taylor

Hey. Welcome to the Taylor Way Talks podcast. I am your host, Don Taylor, and today we get to talk to one of the biggest fans of the podcast. No, actually get to talk to one of my favorite humans, and it's my sister, my sister Jill we are going to be digging into, as you heard from the last episode, the other side of adoption. So, if you listen to the last episode, amazing. You know exactly what we're going to be diving into today because you got to hear my nephew Reese talk. If you didn't, stop now, go back, listen to that episode because we're looking at adoption from both sides. So, from a child who's been adopted, but also from the parent, and on my side is the auntie of the kids that were adopted. So before we get started, I'm going to tell you a little bit about my sister so that you can fall in love with her, too. She's a nurse. She's a mom of four amazing kids. I guess four and a half now with.

Jill Rempel

Three more significant others that I adore.

Dawn Taylor

Right? Like there's a whole lot more kids in there now. They're all amazing. She has a farm.

I think it's safe to say here's a lot of pets. There's just a lot of pets and a lot of land going on there. But she's also my big sister. She's also my big sister and has blessed me with four and now, seven of the most amazing humans that I get to love and call my nieces and nephews. So welcome to the show, Jill.

Jill Rempel

Thank you.

Dawn Taylor

I'm so glad you're here. So, what is it you wish people were talking about?

Jill Rempel

There's, like, the good, bad, ugly, beautiful parts of adoption. And I think that a lot of people don't truly understand it or go into it understanding what all the pieces are going to be. And it's really hard, and there's a lack of support, too.

Dawn Taylor

Yeah, totally is. Without giving too many details, because it's the kids stories and not ours, my amazing sister and her husband John adopted four beautiful babies. They were from three months old up to the oldest of just over six when they were adopted. So literally, like,

went from zero to four kids overnight and they're all half siblings. It was absolutely amazing and crazy and I'll never forget the day that you called and you were, like, "I think these are our kids." And I was like, "What?" And you sent me a picture and you're like, "What is this?" I just remember thinking like, "Holy cow, these are going to be our nieces and nephews." These are going to be our babies. So, obviously most people adopt because there's been infertility or struggles to get pregnant, those sorts of things. So let's start at the beginning. What were your guys' expectations on adopting? Like, what is it you thought it was going to be? What were your fears? What were the exciting things? But really, let's dive into the expectations of it.

Jill Rempel

I was quite open to adoption very early on in our infertility journey because I had babysat adopted kids, I had dated an adopted guy. It didn't scare me. I was having so much pain in the infertility journey and I was just like, "Can we just move on? I'm done. I can't do this anymore." And John was a lot more, he wanted to make a baby, which is totally fair, and he didn't know anybody that was adopted, so there was a lot more fear on his end and. we, yeah, after watching me, it was three years of trying, but the last year, I was on fertility drugs and I was not doing well emotionally, and I was puking all the time, and I remember going to the doctor and the doctor's like, "I think we need you to try this for eight more months and then we'll send you to the fertility clinic." And I lost it, and we got down to the car, and John's like, "We're adopting." And I was like, "Thank you. Thank you so much!" 

And he just jumped in with both feet. He was totally on board. We went to some adoption picnics and met other adoptive families. I had a friend who had adopted kids, and so we saw these little people as more than just these scary kids in the foster system, which is what a lot of people see. They just see all the hurt, and they don't think that they can manage that in their house so that really helped us, and then we got a social worker who was very proactive. She'd been doing removals for 20 years, she was heading into retirement and was like, "I just want to do adoptions. I want to find these kids families." So she did nothing by the rules. They told us the home study would take a year. Ours was three visits, and she just like, we were supposed to do adoption education. This is 20 years, like, 17 years ago, so now it's a lot different but she basically, we did home school, adoption education with our adoption workers. She just, like, blew us through it, got us in contact with a few adoptive families and said, "You guys are ready to go." We had thought we would start, we had always wanted four kids, but when you can't have them, you're like, "One would be great." 

So, our amount of kids decreased significantly, and we were kind of looking for one kid under the age of four, boy, girl, we were open to kind of a lot of things and then at our first adoption meeting, she said, there's a lot of times where especially in the foster care system, where mom's already given birth to a second child before, by the time that they're actually available for adoption, because they really work on reuniting them with their family first. And we were like, "That would be amazing thing if we could get two, because then we could just do this once, and a one year old, a three year old, a two year old, and a four year old. That would be amazing". 

Then she's like, "But you got the room for three, do you think three would be okay? "And I'm like, crazy, and John and I are like, "Well, we could do it. We could do three. It would work." And at our next home study visit, this was like, a month later. She's like, "I have these three kids. They're boys, and they're six, four and two." And John and I our gut response was like, "No, these aren't the kids." And I don't know what made us feel that. We just both like, there wasn't even - I didn't even ask any more questions. It was just like, "No, these aren't the ones." Then at the next film study visit, she's like, "I have a family for you. These are the kids." And I was like, "A family for us? Okay, how many kids are we talking?" She's like, "They're six, four and two. And there's baby on the way. Baby might not be up for adoption, but we suspect that they will be." And I was like, 

"This is crazy." I was like, "Does anybody adopt four kids?" And she's like, "No, nobody does this."

Dawn Taylor

Oh, I remember these conversations.

Jill Rempel

John and I had just bought a Honda Civic, maybe nine months prior for our new family that was coming, and these kids weren't going to fit in this brand new Honda Civic, and I remember thinking, "This is, like, bat shit crazy. This is dumb. This is a bad idea." She left the house. And all we knew was their names and their ages, and we knew nothing else about them, and she left our house, and John and I felt we felt like we had stepped out on a stage and we were floating like that stage fright feeling where I was like, "I need to take a big, deep breath, but, like, I think these are our babies." And, everybody I was like, "Well, I'm going to call mom because mom has a lot of anxiety. She's going to tell me that this is stupid."

Dawn Taylor

So much.

Jill Rempel

And she was over the moon. She was so excited. And I was like, "Okay, this is weird." and then I called you and you were so excited. I thought, "Somebody's going to tell me this is dumb."

and my two safest people, both were like, "Bring it on. Let's do this." and all the people that loved John and I and that knew our journey and that walked with us and prayed with us all worked completely on board. And ,like, "We'll do whatever we can to help you. All of us." People at work, however, were like, "That is stupid." And I was like, "You're right. It's crazy. What are we thinking?" Um, yeah, but we just knew it was, like at my core, we both knew that this is 100% what we were supposed to be doing.

Dawn Taylor

It was wild. I remember Chad and I getting off the like, I got off the phone call with you, and I told him, and he's like, "Why does this feel right?" This is nuts, but, then we also went into panic of, like, "They need help. Hope we have to figure this out." So, what was the timeline? What was the timeline from when you even heard these names to when you went and picked them up? Because I think people will be shocked hearing how quick this all went down.

Jill Rempel

So June is when we went to the adoption agency and said to the ministry office and said, "We're looking into adoption." We met our social worker in July at a picnic. She started her home study in September. I think in October is when we heard about the little boys. Three weeks later, we heard about our kids, and we said yes. So that was lik,e no, it was earlier than that. It was in September. I think it was September, we heard about them. And then in October, Reese was born. And I got a call at work saying, "Your baby was born. They're six pounds, 9oz." And I was, like, bouncing at work. I just had a baby. People were like, "Why are you at work?" I'm like, "Because we can't trust him yet."

Dawn Taylor

"Yeah, he's not actually mine yet."

Reese Rempel

"They're not actually mine yet. But I had a baby today." Yeah, and then we started talking to the foster parents in December, and they came home in January. So it was seven months from that first visit with the social work. It's like the first encounter to having four kids in our house.

Dawn Taylor

Oh, yeah. I remember thinking that it was less than a pregnancy and it was nuts. And so you guys had to go out and buy a van. And I remember Chad and I showing up, and we brought you our actual dining room table and the bench seat chairs because you guys had nothing. Like,

you had nothing to prepare for this.

Jill Rempel

Plastic dishes, beddings. We had enough towels for two people. We needed, like, six people's worth of towels. I needed toys.

Dawn Taylor

I remember coming, and we like, we had gone to Ikea and we had shelving, and we brought you guys a deep freeze. And do you remember that? We literally loaded up a truck, like, the whole body.

Jill Rempel

And our dining room light didn't work. So, for the first six months that we had the kids, we ate dinner by candlelight and you guys came, which is really, actually quite fun. The kids loved it, but we had no proper light above our dining room table, so they came and installed a multicolored primary color fan above our table. And the kids, we thought it would be fun for the kids. They were like, "Why aren't they mechanical items?" But it's still fun, right?

Dawn Taylor

But it was so wild. And I remember, you guys did a photo shoot, so you got them in January, and I don't know, how was it? Because we came up for Easter and hung out with you guys and met our nieces and nephews. And it was so wild because we also couldn't have kids. There's a high rate of infertility and struggles around pregnancy in our extended family, but you just assume that you're going to meet a niece or a nephew as an infant and as a baby. And this, like, six year old walks in the room, and all of a sudden you're, like, playing with these little kids, and at no point and this was actually really cool at no point did Chad or I think, like, "Oh, these are our newer adopted kids". It was like, "No, these are just our babies. These are our kids, and now we love them and they're ours." But, I remember making and I don't know if you guys remember this, but making, like, a giant family tree with photos of everybody, because these poor kids are, like, meeting all of the extended family and all of these people. And I actually made this massive poster that had actual photos of every single person with lines drawn, and I had them help me to try to figure out where they fit. And I'll never forget the line for them was like, little hearts, because it was like, "We love you. We chose you. You're ours."

Jill Rempel

I remember how hard it was for you how hard it was to wait till April to meet them, too, because we really wanted them to know we were their parents. We didn't want to overwhelm them. So we were like, "You can't come see them yet." And everybody's like, "What?" And we made people wait weeks and months, like, even mom and dad. It was a while after, and it was torture for people. We have a new family and you can't meet them.

Dawn Taylor

It was so hard. It was so hard. But it was also. I don't know if it's because we grew up where our mom's best friend had two little boys that were adopted. And so we had experienced so much adoption in our life, and watching these kids and just loving them and I don't know, we were like, yeah, okay, it's hard, but we totally have mad respect for the fact that you have to put these boundaries in place to protect.

JIll Rempel

And nobody questioned it. Everybody was very, very respectful of it, but it was hard, and we wanted help, and we were like, "But you can't come."

Dawn Taylor

Right? It was so crazy. But with that, our family and you heard last week, listeners, that Reese even said this, our family was amazing. Like, from grandparents down, nobody batted an eye. Nobody questioned it. There was never like, "Oh, they're different" or, I love the fact that they'd, like, find pictures of our birth relatives that looked like them to be like, "Look, you even look like the family!" Like, you're like one of them. Like, it was never it was never a thing. It was never a question. It was never a thing. We just freaking loved these kids and they were ours. But some of those expectations of adopting, right? Like there's this interesting struggle with the fertility issues and all of that and just wanting a child to love and take care of and all that. But going in, what were your expectations on how it would be to have adopted kids? The love you'd get, all of that?

Jill Rempel

Yeah. We had done a lot of research prior, especially adopting toddlers. They just don't understand what's happening. So, they really, yeah, it can be quite a traumatic time to be adopted and it can lead to a lot of future stuff, and because a couple of them were so old and had abuse prior, there was a lot of trauma coming, too. So, we knew that it was going to be really hard. We were already talking with the foster parents about the behavior things and the school things and the sleeping issues and the eating issues. These weren't like little lovable cuddly kids that were just going to embrace us with open arms. They were scared, they were hurting, and they were going a new family, a new school, a new church, a new neighborhood, a new sibling, because the baby wasn't living in the same home as them. So we were picking up three at one home and one at another home and being like, now we're a family. Yeah, it was wild and, yeah, so there was a lot of adjustment we had, and I knew it was going to be really hard, but I remember at ten years looking back and being like, "Are they ever going to be okay? I just want them to heal. I just want them to be happy. I just want them to know I love them." and being like, "They might not ever get this." So I don't think I really understood the length of time that that healing would take. I figured if John and I loved them enough, that it would get easy, like five years in and we'd be like a normal family, whatever that means. I don't know what normal is, but we're raised that way. Really? What is normal? Yeah. And I think I expected we get a bit more support from the ministry than we got. We got financial support, but we didn't have any human body support. And then also, family doesn't know how to support you when your child is violent or is smashing their head on the concrete till their forehead bleeds. They don't know what to do. And I don't blame anybody, but a lot of our people just kind of backed up. It was scary. It was too much. And John and I also isolated, so instead of reaching out, we would go to outings. Like, even family didn't know how hard it was because we could tell when they were going to start to escalate. And we would vacate.

Dawn Taylor

Then you guys would run.

Jill Rempel

We'd be like, "Bye bye." And they'd be like, "Oh, they're so lovely. Family gathering." And then it would take us 3 hours to drive the 1 hour drive back to Prince George because we were raging and throwing rocks and crying and kids, and we would get home and we'd be like, "Why did we even do that?" But we didn't really share that with people because we didn't know if they could handle it. I don't know. And then there's also, like, we must be doing it wrong. So there's this feeling of, like, if I'm honest, then people will know that we're bad parents and we were doing our absolute best. And I won't go into details of all their struggles, because that is totally their story. But, yeah, there were times where I thought, "Is this ever going to get okay? Are we ever going to be okay? Are the kids ever going to be okay? Maybe this was a big mistake." Not that I wished I hadn't adopted them, but maybe we weren't the right family. And then I was like, "No, God placed these kids in our life for a reason. He chose us to be their parents." And I knew at my core that we were supposed to be their parents. But there was also times that were so hard that we were like, "Maybe somebody else would have been a better fit, and they'd be doing better."

Dawn Taylor

So with that, I know you and I have had conversations since, okay, so, side note for everybody, all four of them are doing amazing.

Jill Rempel

They really are.

Dawn Taylor

They are amazing. All doing amazing. Like, they're 17 up to 23 right now. They're happy and healthy and living life.

Jill Rempel

I was going to say there's eight of them now. You said seven. They all have significant other. Oh,

that's right. They do. And so we're planning family pictures, and there's twelve of us in the family, like, for July. So, yeah, they all have jobs that they well, not that they love, necessarily, but they're thriving in and they're happy in their relationships. They're doing great.

Dawn Taylor

They're doing amazing. But part of that, too, is, as you guys have processed and dealt with it, it became a massive trauma, personally, and the PTSD and the grieving and everything that had to go down, right? One thing I did want to say is, for anyone listening who's dealt with this or has family that's dealt with this, is like, get them in for some therapy and some help now. And not just the kids, the parents.

Jill Rempel

Yeah. I wish John and I reached out for help sooner. I didn't realize how much our trauma was until one of our children moved out of our home for a while due to safety, and then moved back in. And John was, I don't want to share too much about him because he's not here speaking, but he's very open about this. He had PTSD from parenting, and so every time this child would start to be defiant or act like a normal teenage boy with a little bit of attitude, he would react just like it had been at the worst, and when we had to have him removed, and I was like,0" John, you can't react like that". He's trying so hard to be back home, and he's healed, and he's doing so good. And then every time he has one little hiccup, you are over the moon. And it was totally a PTSD response, and he got into some great counseling. And John is a different human after that. It changed who he is, and he's the first to tell. We've met with a few adoptive families, and he's like, if you are having PTSD, it's real, it's legit, it makes your life miserable. It makes your kid's life miserable. Please get help for it. He's a huge advocate for, I don't think I realized how much John and I both grew up. We thought it was fairly healthy, but any little bit of trauma that you did have as a child now gets compounded. And one of the kids, as an owl was over and, we're talking about what it was like, and there were times that were so hard, and I was like, we were living in trauma soup. I was like, you guys were dealing with your trauma down there. We're dealing with our trauma. We were being traumatized. But what we were hearing from you, we were being traumatized by behavior. We were reacting out of our trauma, which was not ideal, causing more trauma. I'm like, let's just stir all this shit up in a pot and then try to be healthy and happy. And she's just like, "Yes, that is what it is." And it's like, now they're adults. I still have a teenager, but they're growing. And they're like, yeah, it was really hard, but I think they're all realizing we are all a bunch of messed up humans, and it's okay. And they're recognizing that they're loved. I still think sometimes they don't really believe how much John and I love them that I would, you know? Yeah. Our oldest was 19. He's like, I just realized you guys aren't going to go anywhere. You're not going to ditch me. And I'm like, "Finally!"

Dawn Taylor

13 years. I know. Telling me that and being like, "He finally is figuring it out."

Jill Rempel

Like, oh, my gosh. Right? And you really, I know people are like, you don't sell adoption well. And I'm like, no, it's not that I don't sell adoption well. I just think we need to go into it really realistically, and we need to, like, when we went into when we first adopted, we went met with our pastor at our church who had adopted children, and he said, "If you're going into adoption expecting to have kids that just love you and adore you, stop right now. Because your love tank is not going to be filled if you go into adoption, because it's your ministry and this is your life work, and you are going to just love on kids, and they are going to become your family. They'll love you back, too, but that can't be your expectation. You have to be okay if they don't ever get it." And they don't ever really? Yeah. And I was like, "Oh, okay." So John and I went into it with that mindset, and that truly saved us. I remembered that many times. And also at church, when they'd be like, we want you to do Sunday school. We want you to do this. And I was like, "I can't. I'm barely surviving with my kids at home." And I'm like, "This is my ministry." And those words really kept a lot of guilt off of me that sometimes just placed like, I should be ministering, I should be involved more, I should be doing more, I should be volunteering. And I'm like, I just don't have the house with my ministry, and so I think that if we go into adoption like that and I have amazing rewarding relationships with my kids, I adore them, but yeah, it's been a journey. It's hard and people, I don't know what else to say.

Dawn Taylor

No, but it totally is, right? So then another curveballs that got thrown your way that I know I've talked to friends about too, is all of a sudden, randomly, one day, the world decided to start doing Ancestry.com and 23 & Me and now you can. Actually find your birth families and find all your relatives, and all of a sudden, you had two children decide, "Hey, for Christmas, can we get these tests?" Yeah, let's talk about it, so we went into Reese's story and we won't go into the kids stories. I know three of your kids have met birth family.

Jill Rempel

Yes.

Dawn Taylor

One is not interested at all.

Jill Rempel

I know I have four kids that couldn't be any different. And so that's been part of the challenge, too, is they dealt with the trauma. They're so different.

Dawn Taylor

They're four completely polar opposite children.

Jill Rempel

And I love it.

Dawn Taylor

But, one has actually met like birth dad. One has no desire. One has met siblings even, and grandparents and aunts and uncles and cousins. And that would be Reese that we talked to last episode. And then the third one has met like aunts and uncles and cousins and some people. But, birth mom has passed away and did prior to them having the opportunity to meet her. I mean, some of them had known her when they were little, but talk to me about you and John dealing with the fact that your kids because so many parents are scared of that, right? Like, what if they find their birth family and then they stop loving us or we're going to be replaced or whatever it is. How did you and John deal with that? A, when they wanted the testing in the first place and B, when all of a sudden they're like, "Oh, hey, want to come meet my family?"

Jill Rempel

I don't know. John and I have always been pretty open about the more people that love our kids, the better, if they're safe people, and especially with how hard parenting was and the different challenges that they faced. I truly, like, I joke sometimes that it takes a village to raise a child, but it takes a metropolis to raise some of ours because we needed teams of people behind these kids to help them and thank God for these teams. That's what made all the difference. I'm very open to people in my kids' lives. We had hoped for more openness with their birth mum and due to safety, it was never really an option. At one point, they had wanted to do it and I would. They. the child. that really wanted to meet, it was really struggling emotionally and I was like, "Are you ready for what you might face?" So there's been a bit of, like, "What if this goes really badly? Are you going to be strong enough for that?" So any reservation that John and I had was related to them being able to cope with it, or are these safe people? Because it's opening up a lot to their lives.

Dawn Taylor

So much.

Jill Rempel

And you can't take it back, you can't be like, I'm going to unmute you. That's not going

to be a thing.

Dawn Taylor

Well, not knowing how the response would be.

Jill Rempel

Yeah, that's scary.

Dawn Taylor

That was probably the craziest. And so they did the ancestry. Yeah. We waited till our oldest was like, I was like, she's going to do this anyway. Let's just do this. And then our youngest one was doing well enough emotionally that we were like, "If the two of you do this

this together and John and I are part of it, then I think that this is okay." So, we did it and it started us on a wild journey. That's been very cool, actually. There's been no unsafe people. There's one birth sister that's not really or, yeah, birth sister that's not interested in meeting Reese, and Reese is like, "Oh, okay." But, I think there was enough positive response that they could deal with the negative. Not being able to meet their birth mom has been that was a big thing. They were really hoping they would be able to see her. So that was hard to watch them go through that because we didn't know she was deceased when this all started, and then finding out that Reese's birth dad had passed away. That was hard to watch them process, but the other family that is available has been very open, and I think it's filled in a lot of gaps for them, answered a lot of questions that they had.

Dawn Taylor

It has, it's been really interesting to watch. I'll never forget the look on Reese's face when he looked at me, was like, "That's where my bum chin comes from." And it was the cutest comment ever from this 16-year old kid who sounded like a child in that moment, being like, "Look, I see me in somebody, right?"

Jill Rempel

I know. And they're like, if you walk around that community, everybody would know you're part of that family because of that feature, right? How cool for a kid that's never looked like their family, right?

Dawn Taylor

And he's never felt that. So, for somebody who has adopted or who is considering adopted, is there any word of advice, resources, anything that you'd be willing to share to help them walk that journey?

Jill Rempel

I think. I mean, I was a very sweet, soft, passive person before I adopted my kids. It's a while to get grizzly bearish. And I'm quite a different person than I was in good ways, in bad ways. I swear more.

Dawn Taylor

Yes, you do.

Jill Rempel

Yes, I do. I'm more feisty, but I just be a grizzly bear. Fight for your kids. Don't be okay with the shitty answers that you get from people. There's usually somebody that knows, like, we finally got help when one of my kids committed a crime and we're doing youth probation and I'm like, "What? There's resources here that we needed when you were sick. Why are we doing this when you're 12 and 13?" And finally, all of sudden, these resources were available and they were life-changing and so had, I don't know, just like really fight, really search, be honest about how it's going. John and I tried. We hit a lot of what was happening. I don't know if it was due to shame or I think I felt like there's just nobody out there that can help this. This is too big. And so we tried. Yeah, but nobody knows how.  All of our friends at that stage, we adopted our kids before they were even having kids. So we had a bunch of newly-married friends who had never parented, and all of a sudden Jill and John have these four kids that are screaming and yelling and it's very overwhelming and their behaviors are out of this world. Dylan, John are crying and nobody know what to do, and they look back now they have kids that are like, 10 and 11, and they're like, "Oh, my gosh, if we could go back, we would do things so differently." They just feel so bad for the lack of support they gave us, but doing exactly what their 23-year-old brain thought you should do. How do you know? So I know John, and I don't blame anybody. It's just yeah, so just fight for your kids. Fight for resources. Fight for them and get counselling for both of you. Not just for the kids.

Dawn Taylor

100%. And from an auntie's standpoint, just love those kids. Love them. Don't have any expectations. Have zero expectations on what the relationship could be or will be or what they're going to do. Just love them.

Jill Rempel

Yeah. And from an outsider, I would just say, just hold your judgment. If I need to feed my kids donuts every day, because that's the only way it gets into counselling, and they're overweight. I got them into counselling. You don't know what's going on. And those families just go up beside them. Do your best to support them and just really hold your judgment. Be very open to all the things.

Dawn Taylor

Chad and I've talked a lot about this, and I've talked publicly about this, too, with people over the years, over the last 17 years. I don't even know how many months we've had at least one of your children living with us.

Jill Rempel

I know, right? And the kids are like, "We go to Auntie Dawn and Uncle Chad's because we're bad." And I'm like, "Sometimes when mom and dad need respite, that's where you go."

Dawn Taylor

Sometimes it was and I'd say from an auntie and uncle standpoint, that was one of the coolest things that we decided to do is we were going to step up and love him as hard as he could. So it was like, do they need the–

Jill Rempel

Sometimes they were hard to love, right?

Dawn Taylor

It was like loving a porcupine with their quills out the whole time. But it was like, we made an extra effort to, "No, we're not just going to buy toys. We're going to buy clothes for these kids because their parents are struggling, and we need to help financially in that way." Or when we come visit, we're going to help do a clean sweep of the house, or we're going to help organize things, or we're going to help do things like that, because we can do that. We can do that from the outside because we're not in the middle of the PTSD of the raising of these kids. But also, we always said, you make a phone call, we will drive the 8 hours, pick them up and take them for a day, a week, a month, a year. Like, what do you need? And we did.

Jill Rempel

And you often talk about wanting to have your own kids, and I'm like, but you could not have been there for our kids that way had you had your own kids, and I'm glad you didn't have your own kids. That's what these kids needed was, like, co-parenting, tag teaming, and sometimes, yeah, you guys were a life-saver.

Dawn Taylor

Well, because we could, I mean, we made that choice. We made that choice that we're like, no, these are our babies, and how can we support? How can we support them because we know that this isn't a normal situation? I know times that you guys would come and visit us, and we'd be like, "Go to a hotel." and you'd be like, "What?" And be like, "Leave us with the four kids and just go. Just go." And you guys would be so nervous, and all of a sudden, we'd have these four little kids, and we'd figure it out.

Jill Rempel

Nobody died. Nobody.

Dawn Taylor

We may have had a child head dive through a laundry chute have at one point, and the screaming that ensued, and all of the adults running to make sure said child was alive and not dead. Thank God, there was a laundry pile on the bottom of the there was a laundry pile because I sucked it doing laundry and they landed in it and giggled. But, I mean, we survived and they survived. You know, sometimes, that's I think that that's what we needed. It's what you guys needed. So the kids needed was somebody to just step in and be like, "You know what? We'll figure this out. Go breathe."

Jill Rempel

Yeah. Another thing I wanted to touch on is a lot of people have been like, "Oh, you're so lucky to have the kids. You guys are so amazing, and the kids are so lucky to have you." And I clearly remember one of them coming home from school, "You're so lucky to be adopted." And they were like, "I'm not lucky to be adopted. Like, my family abandoned me, and this and this and this happened, and now I'm an adopted family. Like, lucky me." And I was like, "You're right. You are so right. In an ideal world, dad and I would have had birth babies, and you would be with your birth family, and we're taking two shitty situations, and we're trying to make something beautiful out of it, and I think we really need to watch her." You're so lucky. You're so lucky. You know, well, you're not lucky. You're adopted. Yes. I mean, we chose them, and we are so happy to have them, and they are lucky in a sense that they didn't grow up in a foster care system. They are lucky, but we got to be really, like, we need to address the grief and the loss at all levels of adoption and be okay with the field and the behaviors and the things that come out of that. They're real, and we can't just assume that everybody's just going to be okay.

Dawn Taylor

That's right there. That is so important. Jill, this was so fun. I hope that people listening to this got something out of it. Understand adoption a different way. Maybe need to apologize to someone in their life for how they responded or reacted or something that they've said. And you know what? It's no judgment, just curiosity. Like, we're all learning. We're all growing. We're all figuring this out, and it's just a matter of, I don't know, acknowledging it and learning from it to be like.

Jill Rempel

And we're all doing our best. I know adoptive families out there. I've had a few that have reached out to me recently that are really struggling, and they're just like, "I don't know what to do." I'm like, "You're doing your best. You are a super parent. It doesn't look great right now. You are messing up royally at times, but you are loving from a part of your being that you like." I don't know. It makes us better people. I think you and Chad are better people for having these kids in your life 100%. John and I, for sure are. Everybody that comes in contact with them is like, "They are amazing." I think they're more beautiful people because of what they've been through.

Dawn Taylor

They really, truly are. Okay, let's do the silly questions, and I'll let you get back to your day.

What is your secret guilty pleasure way to decompress?

Jill Rempel

Bath.

Dawn Taylor

Oh, my word. Yes. So many and so long.

Jill Rempel

Yeah, I could live in the bathtub when I'm happy, when I'm sad, when I'm tired, when I'm mad, all those things. Yeah, I love that.

Dawn Taylor

For hours and hours and hours and hours and hours.

Jill Rempel

Like, I may read books and watch whole seasons of TV shows in the bathtub.

Dawn Taylor

You do?

Jill Rempel

And when the kids were struggling when they were little, be like, you just need to have a bath.

And I'm like, "I would like that, the best way to solve things."

Dawn Taylor

Yes. I very much agreed. In your world, the bath has always been your biggest, biggest thing. Describe yourself in one sentence or a few words. Everyone likes to break this one and just do what they want. How would you describe yourself?

Jill Rempel

Extroverted introvert. I am feisty now.

Dawn Taylor

You love really hard on your people.

Jill Rempel

I do.  Sometimes I have to remember that I can't fix all the things.

Dawn Taylor

You're a big lover in that way. And what do you spend a silly amount of money on?

Jill Rempel

This is really hard for me because lately I've been really not spending a lot of money. But, I really like to shop, like packages, So I've been buying things that I could buy in town off Amazon just so that I can spend money online.

Dawn Taylor

Don't do that.

Jill Rempel

No, but I need it to fill my need. I bought dish towels and I bought syrup for my coffee. Like, I buy things that I would buy in town, but on Amazon, I can read the review, so I know if they're good. I'm not going to buy shitty towels.

Dawn Taylor

Oh, you are so funny. You're like Chad. He just likes to feel like it's Christmas all the time and there's packages.

Jill Rempel

But I can't justify buying I don't need right now because I need to save money.  And then this isn't spending money, but I've been, like, squirrelling money into an account that John doesn't have access to. "Where did all the money go?" And it's not that I'm hiding it from him. I tell him what's in there, and he's like, "There's no money." "It's okay, it's over here. You just can't access it."

Dawn Taylor

That's so funny.

Jill Rempel

So, the money will all go missing, but it's like I put it in this account and I put it on the Visa, and I did that with it. So that's what I'm spending my money on right now.

Dawn Taylor

It's just a secret account.

Jill Rempel

Yes.

Dawn Taylor

That is amazing. I'm spending all my end on gardening supplies. Yeah, that's my problem.

Jill Rempel

I really haven't been buying much lately.

Dawn Taylor

Good job. Used to be candy and knitting and crocheting stuff.

Jill Rempel

Yes. Lots of crafting. Like, "Can I have candy?" And I'd say, "I don't have any." He'd be like, "Yeah, you do."

Dawn Taylor

You guys have, like, a rubber made bin of candy?

Jill Rempel

I always have candy, yeah. But John's diabetic now, so I really try to not, to limit that a little,

probably. Yeah.

Dawn Taylor

This was so fun. Thank you so much for hanging out with us today and, yeah, for being on the show. I hope for listeners, you guys heard something that hit home, shifted something in you, and proved that you're not alone, but also that you grew in some way. Join us again in two weeks for another amazing topic. You'll have to wait to find out what it is, because I don't know yet.

Jill Rempel

I am open to the people reaching out to me if they have questions.

Dawn Taylor

Yes. So we will put contact information for Jill in the Show Notes so that you can get access to her, if you want to talk to her or just pass on her information to somebody, please tell your friends if they need to listen to this episode or your family members. The more people that feel understood, the better. You can always check out the show notes located at thetaylorway.ca for more information, all the contact information for today's guest, and maybe we can get her to give us some resources. If there's, like, books or podcasts or anything like that that have helped her on her journey, we will put those there as well and subscribe now on Apple, Spotify or wherever you listen to your podcasts. And if you love the show, it would mean the world if you left a rating or review. See you guys in a couple of weeks. Bye.

Content Warning: struggles with identity, sense of self and adoption.

In this episode, we discuss some topics that listeners may find difficult such as struggles with identity, sense of self and adoption.

Why you would want to listen to this episode…

At three months old, Reese Rempel was adopted and cared for by loving parents and welcomed into a family. However, being adopted does bring about its own set of differences and complications growing up. Reese had a desire to find out more about the past and with the help of Dawn, they were able to track down the family where Reese came from. If you’re interested in learning more about the ins and outs of an adoptive home as well as finding one’s identity through family, this episode is for you.

Who this for...

For those who are adopted into a family, the topics discussed here can be very familiar and comforting, while for families looking into adoption, this episode provides a unique perspective into the mentality adopted children may have growing up under a family’s care. The road to this type of life is not all sunshine and rainbows, however, it is genuinely paved with support and love.

About Dawn Taylor

Dawn Taylor is the professional ass-kicker, hope giver, life strategist, trauma specialist, and all-around badass. Dawn's journey into helping others heal began when she took her personal recovery from the trauma she experienced in her life into her own hands. While at times unconventional, Dawn’s strategic methods have helped hundreds heal from traumas such as issues related to infidelity,  overcoming addiction,  working through PTSD from sexual, emotional, and physical abuse, as well as helping cult survivors thrive. Dawn’s work has empowered entrepreneurs, stay-at-home moms, and CEOs alike to be superheroes in their own lives. Having completed thousands of hours of training from many professional programs, including the Robbins Madanes Training Institute, Dawn’s blunt honesty will challenge your thinking, broaden your awareness, and help you achieve the outstanding results you are worthy of.

Connect with Dawn here at The Taylor Way: Consultation Call | Website | Facebook | Instagram | LinkedIn

Get to know Dawn on a deeper level through her book! Order Here

P.S. I Made It, is a powerful story that grabs you through its lack of pretension and honesty. Every page reveals another layer of curious wonder at both Dawn’s life and the power of hope that moves within each of us. Dawn’s hope is that you use this book as a resource to deal with your struggles. Share it with someone who needs it. We all want to feel like someone understands what it’s like to suffer through something and – come out the other side. She describes her life as “horrifically beautiful and beautifully horrific. 

Guest Bio

Reese was adopted as a baby after being apprehended by the ministry at birth. This is his story now as a young adult on how his experience with adoption changed how he views relationships.

Guest Social Links

Reese's art page - https://www.instagram.com/haku.eternal   

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Views Expressed, Legal and Medical Disclaimer

This podcast (including any/all site pages, blog posts, blog comments, forums, videos, audio recordings, etc.) is not intended to replace the services of a physician, nor does it constitute a doctor-patient relationship. Information is provided for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional medical advice. You should not use the information on this podcast for diagnosing or treating a medical or health condition. If you have or suspect you have an urgent medical problem, promptly contact your professional healthcare provider. Any application of the recommendations in this podcast/website is at the listener/reader's discretion. The views and opinions expressed are those of guests and do not necessarily reflect the opinion or policy of Dawn Taylor, The Taylor Way and or its Associates. The before mentioned are not liable for any direct or indirect claim, loss or damage resulting from the use of listening/reading to this podcast or any website and/or any website (s) linked to/from it. Listeners/readers should consult their physicians concerning the recommendations in this podcast.

Transcript

Dawn Taylor

I am your host, Dawn Taylor. And today we are talking to one of my most favorite humans on this planet. His name is Reese. He is my nephew. He is a little rock star. He is a genius who can draw like nobody's business. He was also adopted at three months old. and today's topic is we're going to dive into what adoption is like from his standpoint. So welcome to the show, Reese.

Reese Rempel

Thank you for having me here. I am so happy to be here.

Dawn Taylor

I am so excited to talk to you about this. So what is it that you wish people talked about when it came to adoption?

Reese Rempel

I feel like the biggest thing with adoption is people assume that I should be be grateful for it and that I was somehow, in a sense, almost rescued from what it could have been. And so I feel like the biggest problem with that is people have this ideal that I was somehow saved but I still had to deal with being adopted all the same.

Dawn Taylor

Ooh. But it's true, right? So you and I have chatted so much over the years. I mean, let's be honest, we have connected through our inability to connect, which always makes both of us laugh. But people do look at it as, you were rescued, you were saved. And while maybe you were rescued from the situation that was going on with your birth mom and that sort of thing, have you ever felt that? Have you ever felt that you were rescued or that you were saved or any of that?

Reese Rempel

I think I tried to believe it, but it's hard to kind of wrap your head around because I still had to deal with a lot of identity issues that came from being adopted and not knowing who was. So while I was saved from what could have been a really horrible situation, I still had a whole another package to deal with, with being adopted.

Dawn Taylor

Let's talk about that when it comes to adoption. So you were three months old when you were adopted. You have three older half siblings, so yes, you heard that, right. My sister did adopt four children at one time. One mum, four dads. Pretty crazy situation. But you didn't ever know your birth mom, right? But you also had never met your siblings prior to being adopted and, I mean, you were three months old, so obviously it's not just like a big pivotal thing, but they had a different experience than you did. 

Reese Rempel

Yeah, and I think with my older siblings, they came from a situation that they knew their birth family, or at least like my birth mom, which I never really had. So being adopted at such a young age, I really didn't have any of that foundations. All I knew was my adopted family.

Dawn Taylor

And then add to that, so there's a lot of people on this planet that have an inability to bond, right? And whether you want to call things like attachment disorders or whatever. But, when there's a lot of rejection and there's a lot of issues around even like conception, we learn to bond in utero, we learn to love in utero. And so when we are born into a situation and I'm saying this from a standpoint of I deal with this, and I had a reasonably healthy family, right? I wasn't adopted but  around conception and birth and my mom's pregnancy, I struggle with this inability to bond and the struggle to connect to people in the way that I wish I could, and so being adopted and then also dealing with that, how has that shifted you growing up?

Reese Rempel

I think, to just talk about the bonding stuff from even back to in utero. You see with a lot of pregnant women, they talk to their baby and they do all these things while they're still in the womb. And I think as I got older, I realized how much of that I didn't necessarily get. So it's like I've never heard my birth mother's voice before so when you're at such a young age and you think of all these things that you do for newborn babies, it's like they smell you and things, like, I never had that. What I knew was a hospital that I stayed for, and then I just got shipped away to this entirely new family who were essentially strangers.

Dawn Taylor

Yeah.

Reese Rempel

I think that caused a lot of disconnect from them because even though I was in such a loving and caring family, I just didn't have that immediate, like, I wouldn't let my mom hold me for the first nine months of my life without crying. Like, crying. I was just, like, unhappy continuously. And whether you call that just being a baby or that was something deeper, that went to, like, my connection issues, where I was so unwilling to be loved at that point.

Dawn Taylor

So talk to me about how that's shifted over the years. You're now 17,  I should know this. You're now 17. You've been in our family for 17 years. How has that right, like, your entire life? How have those bonding issues how has that shifted over the years? And where has it shown up? Where has it shown up in your life where you're like, "Oh, that's an obvious disconnect issue."

Reese Rempel

I still definitely see it in a lot of my relationships, even day to day. I have a hard time just having a general empathy for people. Not to say that I don't have empathy at all, but I really struggle to connect to people in an everyday sense where I always feel like there's continuously a wall in between us. So I do see it a lot and I still have a hard time seeing my parents as mom and dad because that feels like it's a role that I don't have, which is really hard to say because they did raise me and I have all the things that should qualify them as parents, but there's almost like a mentality about it of things they should have been but weren't because they weren't necessarily like the traditional from, like, the beginning of, like, "Oh, you know? Baby time?" I don't know. How do you describe that?

Dawn Taylor

No, but I think it's, so you and I have talked a lot about this over the years.

Reese Rempel

Yeah.

Dawn Taylor

Like, you've come and stayed with us at times just to get away. And this is not against my sister. My sister is an amazing mom and her husband's an amazing dad, so anyone who's listening to this hear that, but you and I have always just had this interesting little connection and bond. And so ,you've come and stayed with us for months at a time, sometimes just like to get a break from life, to get away, come hang out. Or if you were just, like, wanting to not be at home for a bit, and you and I have talked a lot about how do I word this?  How it's different to know it in your head than to know it in your heart.

Reese Rempel

Yeah. It's almost, like, accepting it for yourself.

Dawn Taylor

Right? But also knowing what love is and what love looks like, and that sometimes it's a very big brain decision versus a heart decision when you struggle with bonding, right? Where it's like, I choose to love you,

Reese Rempel

it's always been like it felt very decision-based.

Dawn Taylor

Yeah.

Reese Rempel

I didn't know what love was, and even today, I still struggle in my relationships, whether just, like, platonic or romantic, of what this would actually look like. So, I go into just about every situation with a very almost transactional lens of thinking, "Okay, what would this relationship look like? What am I putting in to get out?" And so I have a hard time kind of loving unconditionally because I don't know how that even looks like.

Dawn Taylor

And again, not a bash towards anyone who raised you.

Reese Rempel

Yeah, this is completely my perspective. I've received so much love from  my family, and I honestly, I do love them, but it's been, like, a very me problem of not understanding how that looks.

Dawn Taylor

Which I think is so interesting. And I think so from the outside listening, right? For someone who's listening to this, going like, "Oh, is this my child? Is this my niece or nephew or spouse, or maybe it's me?" Do you have any recommendations on how to respond and react and treat somebody who struggles with that inability to bond and that different connection?

Reese Rempel

I think the biggest thing would, just, understand that it takes time. I think with my parents, my mother has been ever so graciously understanding, but I've had a really hard time. Even when it's like saying "Goodnight, I love you." Those words mean a lot more to me. I have a really hard time getting them out. So, I think it's understanding that it takes time for them to understand what "Goodnight, I love you." essentially means and how that would come across.

Dawn Taylor

Well, and I know for myself, it's giving so much grace to be like, I don't fully know or understand what some of those feelings are.

Reese Rempel

It's a very lonely point, but it doesn't mean you value the relationships any less.

Dawn Taylor

Oh, not at all.

Reese Rempel

People think that it's like, I'm not completely closed off. I still value all my relationships. It just takes a very long time for me to completely comprehend them and understand, like, these people are okay to have in my life.

Dawn Taylor

So, then let's fast forward a few years. You got a Christmas gift from your parents that you wanted.

Reese Rempel

That I did.

Dawn Taylor

And what did your parents gift you?

Reese Rempel

My parents, I had been talking about this for a long time. I never knew my birth dad at all, and so I had been asking for a DNA, like, testing kit.

Dawn Taylor

Ancestry or 23 and Me or something.

Reese Rempel

Yeah, that's exactly what I got and I ended up going through. Ancestry and I did end up finding my birth family.

Dawn Taylor

Okay, so for anyone listening. 16 years old all of a sudden finds out you have this entire birth family, and I want to walk people through the situation of how it all went down because that was a fucking whirlwind. Like, that is the only way to describe how that Sunday night went. But, for people listening, my podcast episodes come out in two weeks. I'm actually talking to my sister. I'm talking to Reese's mom about adoption from her perspective, so we're going to do the other side of this as well, which I'm really excited about. So, you were staying with us at this point because you were homeschooling, and you're like, Reese and I are buds. Let's just be honest. We've been pretty tight for a long time. And we were sitting were we even, like, sitting on the couch?

Reese Rempel

Yeah, I think we were watching, like, a TV show.

Dawn Taylor

Probably something super cheesy. We're eating blueberries because that's what we did together all the time, and you were like "So, I got my results." 1.2s I was like, "What are you talking about?" And, oh, my goodness. It was like, I think it was like May or June, and you had already gotten them like, months earlier. And I was like, "What are you talking about?" And you're like, "My 23 and Me" or Ancestry, whichever one it was. And I said, "What?" And you're like, "Yeah, I think I want to reach out to some people." And so tell me if it's okay if I tell this whole story. Is it okay?

Reese Rempel

Yeah, it's fine.

Dawn Taylor

Okay. So we are sitting there, and I was like, "Okay, so let's look at this." And somebody had come up, and what was it that they could have been, an uncle or a brother?

Reese Rempel

Yeah, an uncle or a brother.

Dawn Taylor

One of the relations that had come up was an uncle or a brother. And you're like, "I don't know what to do." So part of it is not knowing, not knowing anything about your birth family, not knowing anything about your mom's situation, really, when she conceived you. There were a lot of stories, but nothing factual, and there was no names on birth certificates or anything, right? So, I know the conversation we had is you're like, how do I reach out to someone and be like, "Hey, are you my uncle or my brother? Do you happen to know a dude that had sex with this woman? I have her name." Right? And then we were having this hilarious conversation, and we were actually giggling about it of like, how do you approach someone with that information, not knowing, does this man have a family? Does this man, is he having an affair?

Reese Rempel

No way of knowing if they accept it as well? Because it would be like, would they be totally open to that? Or like, "Who the hell are you? Get out."

Dawn Taylor

Oh, hundred percent. So we stalked this dude on Facebook, we did, and then I reached out to him because I was like, "No, let me do the reaching out so that I can deal with the rejection."

Reese Rempel

I mean, also at that point, I was some 16 year old kid who had no clue what I was doing. Contact old men online? You need a tip on cybersecurity right now. Don't put everything on Facebook, because I found a lot of information.

Dawn Taylor

Oh, yeah, you've like–

Reese Rempel

I made a whole family tree.

Dawn Taylor

Oh, yeah. You're a hilarious little sleuth when it comes to this. So I messaged this man and was like, "Hi. This is who I am. This is the situation. There was a test done." And to say that the result was unexpected is probably the understatement of the day. It was wild. Not only did they know your mom, and it was your uncle that I was talking to, but we found out that you had a half sister living 45 minutes away and nephews and a brother-in-law and another half-sibling somewhere. And, how many aunts, uncles, cousins did you have or do you have?

Reese Rempel

My aunts and uncles? I have twelve. But in the whole family, including cousins, there's like 150 of them.

Dawn Taylor

Oh yeah. And then I went further that we found out that your uncles went to school with some of my aunties. My grandma, your adopted great grandma had been friends with your birth grandma, for, like, fifty years. Oh, no. This blew up in the biggest way possible. We found out that you had aunts and uncles in the town we were living in at the time, and cousins and second cousins. And this was I think it was a Sunday night, and all of a sudden, I'm Facebook messaging them, and then all of a sudden, your sister is texting me, and you're talking to them. How many people showed up at that house within 24 hours?

Reese Rempel

I don't even know. It was such a wild amount. It was like this complete 180 from, like, "Hey, would you know about my birth mom at all?" To like, "Oh, suddenly there's a family gathering outside my house."

Dawn Taylor

And I remember you and I sitting there like, we escaped it at one point. And we were just, like, looking at this group of people sitting on the back lawn going, "This is your birth family." So. your dad had passed away about ten years earlier, but in this wild twist. They had known about you and that you were born, but nobody knew your name, nobody knew where to find you, and no one knew your birth mom's last name to be able to track you down because you had a half-sister that was having kids. Like, you have nephews that are older than you.

Reese Rempel

I do.

Dawn Taylor

Right? And, like, she had thoughts of even, like, finding you and adopting you and raising her little sister, and no one could find you. So can we talk about that for a sec? Because it went from zero to hero overnight, and then they're this beautifully connected family, and they just wanted to love on you and adopt you into their group and spend all their time with you, and it literally went from, I don't have any extended family to, oh, I have 150 and 149 of them want to meet me and be friends now?

Reese Rempel

Yeah.

Dawn Taylor

Let's talk about that for a sec. How did you feel? How did you deal with that? What was that experience like meeting him for the first time?

Reese Rempel

It was definitely disorientating. I kind of went in with the mentality of, like, went into it expecting rejection, and what I got was a whole lot of compassion and learning that not only had they known about me, is that they had also met my other half-siblings and that they were wanting to adopt me had they had the chance. And it was this really interesting perspective of, like, they were trying so hard, but they just didn't have the tools they needed to actually go through with it and actually have me as part of their family.

Dawn Taylor

So this life of believing how rejected you had been, you had actually been so loved and so wanted and so cared for, like, how crazy is that?

Reese Rempel

It was definitely a wild experience. It still kind of weirds me out to this day of understanding just how deep it went.

Dawn Taylor

Yeah. So we started having a lot of time with them.

Reese Rempel

A lot. Yeah.

Dawn Taylor

A lot of time with them, which was amazing. It was so cool. I hosted a lot of barbecues, but you had dates with them. I remember one of the comments you made, and keep in mind in all of this, your parents aren't here.

Reese Rempel

They knew at that point. I was like, "Oh."

Dawn Taylor

I phoned them. Don't worry. I phoned them. I phoned them. I talked to your mom about it and your dad, but because it had gone down so hard so fast, your parents were way far away, like, opposite side of the province. This is also during COVID, like, we're trying to keep everyone six feet apart, getting to the big backyard, right? And we're dealing with all of this emotional stuff, but one of the cutest comments ever was when one of your aunts walked in, And you're like, "Oh, my gosh, I'm so tall." because you'd always struggle to feeling so short. And then you met your birth family.

Reese Rempel

And suddenly they're all shorter than me, and I understand, "Oh, this is where it happens."

Dawn Taylor

You were like a giant compared to them.

Reese Rempel

One of the tallest in my family.

Dawn Taylor

Like, literally, you had the shortest family, but all of them, every single one of them also had your chin. They all had your adorable little bum chin with your little dimple, right? And it was this, how did you feel? How did you feel seeing that?

Reese Rempel

I got a lot of comments saying that I look like my half sister. Honestly, personally, I don't see it, but I think that's just like an eye of the beholder kind of thing. I don't think I could see that, but going into it, it was, it just kind of felt very relieving. I had some kind of reconciliation at that point of understanding, like, this is where I came from, and suddenly things were kind of starting to fit together because despite me and all my siblings having shared DNA, we still looked very different, and so it was very like this kind of rut that I couldn't get over because it's like even though we were related, I could still pick out so many differences that I felt alienated me from them.

Dawn Taylor

Interesting, right? So then you have to deal with all of a sudden this, not only do have adopted family that loves you more than anything, and that's one thing that I will give our family so much credit for is when my sister said like, "Hey, we're going to adopt." and that was all starting. There was never a hesitation. Nobody was like, "Oh, really? What if it's awkward? Or what if we don't love them as much as we do?" No. It was never even a hesitation from my grandparents down. All of these generations, every single person was like, "Hell, yes." and we choose these kids and we love them, right?

Reese Rempel

Honestly, I really just need to give such a big props to everyone in the family for not only accepting us, but taking us as we had been there from the very beginning.

Dawn Taylor

Oh, like, huge props, because I know families. That that's not the situation, and it's never been ever been a thing. Like, it's not a thing that you're adopted. It's not a thing that you weren't just born into the family or that you're not ours. It's, it's never been a thought, and literally, like, every aunt, uncle, cousin, my grandparents, like, everybody, it was just like, no, no, you're just our kids. Like, you're fine.

Reese Rempel

Yeah, honestly, like, I think for me personally, because I was adopted at such a young age, I never really had to think about it much, but for my siblings who are all adopted at an older age, it was definitely like they were just, without question, family, no matter where they came from.

Dawn Taylor

Like, nobody ever talked about it. It was just like, "No, they're family. They're ours."

Reese Rempel

I don't think I've ever really had people ask me how it was being adopted because of that. It was just like a no-brainer. It wasn't a sensitive topic or anything. It was just like, "No, you're family, no matter."

Dawn Taylor

Oh, yeah, and it didn't matter what behaviors were happening. It didn't matter, looks, it didn't matter. Even when it came to you finding birth family, everyone was like, "Cool, more family!" Nobody was upset or hurt or, I mean, there were some sensitive feels. I mean, obviously, like, your parents and I'll discuss that with your mom in a few weeks, but, you know, they were definitely like, "Shoot, are we being replaced?" kind of idea.

Reese Rempel

It was this kind of just, like, sense of "How do we invite this entirely new family into our own?"

Dawn Taylor

Yeah, it's never been a thing. We have never looked at our nieces and nephews with any sort of division. Actually, we used to laugh about it that we're like we chose you guys, right?

Reese Rempel

There was nothing, like, accidental about the entire process.

Dawn Taylor

Nothing. The entire process, from start to finish, of adopting you guys and having inner family was just a miracle. And so, it was interesting. All of a sudden, there is a whole another family and there is this whole other group 1s and there are all these people. But when you're struggling already with connection and when I say that you guys were accepted, like, no, my grandma would write you guys letters and gifts and how many band concerts did my aunties come to? And sporting events. Everyone's just loved you. It's never been a question. But now you deal with like, there's this whole other group, but you're also at a really pivotal age in your own life where you're graduating and all these things going on.  Can we talk about that process of the overwhelm of “How do I do this?”

Reese Rempel

I think already because I am quite young, and so I can't really say that I've made it through all of my life with some expertise, but I think because of the age I am, I am already in a situation where I'm finding my identity and I'm preparing to leave home and make my own name for myself, right? But when you take into all this identity issues from adoption, it was really kind of disorientating because I didn't know where to start from.  And so, it feels like I've lived so many different lives already, from having my name changed since I was an infant to when I was adopted. And then it was, like, all these different identities that I could almost  put myself into little boxes of, like, "Oh, from this age I was this person and then I got adopted, and then I became a new person." And so it felt like there were very distinct stages of my life of who I was at that time, and so now that I'm getting older, I'm trying to almost put them all back together into one person of understanding, like, "No, that wasn't a different person that was adopted. That was me."

Dawn Taylor

Yeah. There's definitely been some identity struggles, but also then even finding out what your cultural heritage is, like, to add to everything else.  What did you learn?

Reese Rempel

Well, I heard somewhere down the line that my birth mother and possibly my birth father had been of Indigenous ancestry, and so I'm probably about as white as you can get.

Dawn Taylor

You're translucent, darling.

Reese Rempel

Am I? And so growing up, we all had this kind of doubt of, like, are you actually? But through the adoption process, because they knew my mother was of status, that they tried to keep my history with me, and so that they tried to involve me in different cultures and it was a struggle for me because I never felt like I fit at all. For, like, I feel like I didn't look the part. I didn't know any of the actual history. I didn't grow up like that. So it felt like is a complete alien in those areas.

Dawn Taylor

You know, it's amazing, though, because you're just a human.

Reese Rempel

Absolutely right.

Dawn Taylor

No matter what, whether you were adopted or not, adopted or aboriginal descent or not, or you don't match the coloring or you don't match the looks or any of those things, there's this core piece of you that has just been authentically beautiful. You from the day I met you, with all your feistiness, with all of it.

Reese Rempel

I think almost a part of with all the identity issues, it made me so determined to become my own person that I just became wildly unique that I could not handle being like anything else but myself.

Dawn Taylor

Which has been beautiful. So has meeting your birth family. So you even actually got the opportunity, you did get to meet your grandma, your birth grandma, before she passed away in some time with her. I mean, you've had your birth family travel far to come, even, like, hang out at your parents house, and they've met them all, and your siblings have met them, and you went on a vacation to Disney with them. It's been a whirlwind what, year and a half, since you met them in any way. Has that actually caused you to be able to connect more to your adopted family now that you know where you came from?

Reese Rempel

I think in some sense, it has it's kind of hard to put my finger on exactly, but I feel like I definitely appreciate my relationship with my adoptive family a bit more. Um, I was a very angsty kid, so I was there's. Like, I tried to reject them before they ever, like, rejected me. I had this just, like, insecurity of, like, because I had been put up for adoption, I was like, "Oh, are they going to leave again?" And so I just had that insecurity that I always tried to push people away, but I think growing up, over time, I kind of realized that I just needed to get my head out of my ass and that they weren't going anywhere anytime soon.

Dawn Taylor

No. We're kind of like a wart. Like, you can't get rid of us.

Reese Rempel

So stubborn.

Dawn Taylor

Yeah, you can't burn us off.

Reese Rempel

Yeah. I think having met my adoptive family, I kind of realized it was like, this pivotal point in my life where I realized, "Oh, there's enough room to love two different kinds of families." It wasn't just, like, one or the other. I was not picking sides. It was understanding, like, I've spent my life with these people but on the other hand, with my birth family, I understand more of my history now.

Dawn Taylor

And I think part of it like, it doesn't have to be about gratitude. It doesn't even have to be but any of those things. It's like I was chosen, I'm loved and sometimes we end up exactly where we're meant to be and where we're supposed to be, whether it makes sense or not, right?

Reese Rempel

Yeah. Whether or not I was, like, as I mentioned before, I was really, like, an angsty kind of kid about a lot of adoption, but I kind of began to realize, like I don't know even how I say this, like, losing my train of thought now.

Dawn Taylor

It's okay.

Reese Rempel

I lost my thought.

Dawn Taylor

Okay, it'll come back. So for someone who has been adopted and is struggling with and not knowing your birth family, struggling with that identity crisis, struggling with those things, is there anything you recommend to them? While you think about that. One thing I would say is give yourself a hell of a lot of grace, right? It's very normal to feel like you don't fit. It's very normal to feel, like, I mean, I grew up feeling that way. I never felt like I fit with my family. Good grief, I did the same test as you did just to figure out if I was adopted, because I had actually bet money with my husband I was. I fully believed I was because of how different I felt than my birth family, right? And they're my actual family, and I still never felt like I fit, right? I think it's so normal. It's so normal and so much of our identity that can come down to who we are as people and our values and our morals and our ethics and our standards and our personality traits and all of these things. I think for myself, I've realized over the years and talking with a lot of friends who've been adopted, is all of those things are who you are. It doesn't matter where you came from, right? You're still a human being walking on this planet. And those are the things that matter. Those are the things that matter is, like, your actual personality, what you're doing with your life.

Reese Rempel

I think kind of just touch back on the gratitude piece of it is when you're adopted and you're like, what would be like your advice to other people in that situation? It's give yourself time. Because whether or not you learn to almost accept of the piece of adoption, whether you've adopted somebody or you are adopted yourself, it's like in the points, they're going to love you no matter what because I don't know. I'm losing my train of thought again.

Dawn Taylor

You're hilarious.

Reese Rempel

I'm so ditzy right now. I'm trying, I swear. No, I have good thoughts.

Dawn Taylor

It's also a very vulnerable conversation, but tell me if I'm wrong, but I think what you're saying is like, give them time.

Reese Rempel

Yeah, give them time.

Dawn Taylor

On both ends.

Reese Rempel

Yeah, that's more or less what I'm saying before I become a space cadet again. Sorry.

Dawn Taylor

We've got you. No, but it's give them time, right? So give your parents time, right? Like your adopted parents. Give them time and grace and understanding of the fact that the story they've created on how this is going to go down, how this is going to look, how this going to feel, what's going to happen is going to be very different than yours, right? And the love might look different, but even in those moments when you are rejecting them or you are pushing back or you are doing those things, it doesn't mean you don't love them.

Reese Rempel

Yeah, I think that's really one of the biggest pieces of just like, knowing that even though it seems, like, really scary and it's difficult, that it's not going anywhere. That's something that's going to handle eventually, it might smooth out, but even if you are in a bumpy path right now, it doesn't always have to be.

Dawn Taylor

No, it doesn't. Well, without telling any of the stories of your siblings, because they're all their own stories. When your mom and dad adopted you guys, you were, what, three months? Almost two, five and six, something like that. You're all about two years apart or just around that. But you guys were really young, and out of the four of you, three of you have met some birth family. One has absolutely no interest. Like, couldn't care less. He is very like, "No, I got family. I'm fine, I'm good." He doesn't care, he doesn't care. And will that change? Maybe when he's older? Who knows? But he doesn't care, right? And some of the situations have gone really well, and some have gone not as well, and there have been different struggles amongst it, but I think everyone's story is unique and individual, and if you do want to find your birth family and fight for that, man, it's never too late. I know a woman who she's fought for something like 30 years, and she's now found all her siblings, and it's been amazing. Right. Rven if the story with your birth parents doesn't turn out amazing, you have no idea the acceptance and love you could get from the extended family.

Reese Rempel

Yeah, because I feel like from already my personal experience, I didn't really have the option to meet my birth dad because he had already passed. But that doesn't mean meeting the rest of family wasn't just as meaningful.

Dawn Taylor

Yeah, I think one of the coolest moments was when they brought over photo albums and we got to sit at the table and look at pictures and see your dad when he was young, and I think there were even pictures of him and your birth mom when they were dating that we saw, and they're like, "It was wild." and to see the genetic traits and to see that life. 1s And you know what? I think your life would have turned out amazing and has turned out amazing no matter which path it would have been.

Reese Rempel

Yeah, I think that's one of the biggest takeaways of, like, I can't hold it against my adoptive family for what I could have had, because either way, I've lived such a meaningful life already that I'm, like, I don't think I have any teen angst anymore about it. I'm just, like, happy that I've had the opportunity to meet both my birth family and have such an amazing adoptive family.

Dawn Taylor

We like you. We'll keep you. I mean, if we have to. You're amazing, Reese. You seriously are. All right, is there anything else that you want to talk about when it comes to adoption or your side of it or anything? Or can we go to the silly questions?

Reese Rempel

I think there's one thing that I would like to touch on, and it was just kind of going back to the birth family bit of like there's some parts that I don't think can ever be fully reconciled, because, as I mentioned, my birth father had already passed, so I will never have that opportunity to meet and talk to him, but that doesn't mean I have to kind of grieve him in a very unique perspective, because I never had him in my life, nor will get to, because he's not here anymore. It's like learning how do I deal with that grief and understanding that I can still continue to move on and have a relationship with my adoptive family and my birth family without him, because ultimately, that was like, my whole goal going into meeting my birth family, was to try and meet him, but I didn't have that. So it was just like, understanding, of not everything will always work out, and I think you have to be mindful when you go into, what do you want if you're contacting birth families? What do you want out of that?

Dawn Taylor

There was that night sitting on the couch, couch. You and I had a big talk about that before I sent that first message is, "What are your expectations on this? What is it that you're wanting to get out of it? And how are we going to deal with it if you don't get it." Right? And I think that that was probably one of the smartest things that we did prior to sending those messages, because we had already talked that all through and figured that all out, because I was like, no, what are your intentions? Because it's understanding that, despite being adopted, is part of my identity. It's not my whole identity. So even without having all these relationships with my birth family, I'm still me. I still have an identity, and I can't let that completely tear me down.

Dawn Taylor

No. And it was like I remember asking, "What is your intention behind this?" And you were like, "What do you mean?" And I was like, "What is your intention behind reaching out? What is it that you're needing and from this? What is it you're wanting from this? What is it you're desiring from this? And what if those aren't met?" Right?

Reese Rempel

Yeah, because at that point, it's a very vulnerable position to just go into this whole scenario of understanding, like, "Oh, I have to open myself up to people, and they very well might just completely reject me."

Dawn Taylor

Which I was honored. I was honored to be your rejection barrier. I was so honored to be that person for you that day, right, where I was like, "No, let me deal with the aftermath of whatever happens. But, man, we're going to hope and pray it turns over really well."

Reese Rempel

Yeah.

Dawn Taylor

I'll never forget that day. Do I have permission to post in the show notes a picture of you with your sister and nephews?

Reese Rempel

I think you might want permission from my nephews and sister.

Dawn Taylor

I will ask. Yeah, I will. Totally. No, but if it's something that you're okay with so check the show notes and thetaylorway.cA, you might see a picture. I just think those pictures of you just, like, beaming with your family, looking so gigantically tall with matching chins is one of the cutest things ever, but no, I will definitely check in on that and we'll see if one gets posted. But let's ask you the fun little silly questions.

Reese Rempel

Question time.

Dawn Taylor

What is one of your secret guilty pleasure ways to decompress?

Reese Rempel

Honestly, it sounds really bad, but isolation. I absolutely love just like crawl in a blanket, hide, put on YouTube, just chill. Taking time to just hide.

Dawn Taylor

You have been that way, I think, from the day you were born.

Reese Rempel

My mom has definitely had stories of me being two. And I would be over at my grandma's house and she'd be like, "Where is Reese?" And would just be like playing in a corner in a closet.

Dawn Taylor

We used to literally set up toys in the bottom of our closet so that you would have a safe space to go.

Reese Rempel

That's what I would do. 1.6s I would just, like, hide.

Dawn Taylor

I love that so much because it's so you describe yourself in one sentence.

Reese Rempel

Stubborn. Stubborn. I feel like I can just minimize that to one word.

Dawn Taylor

Yes, I also agree with that in a major way. What do you spend a silly amount of money on? What do you have to these days and spend your money on?

Reese Rempel

Clothes.

Dawn Taylor

Yeah, that's a new one.

Reese Rempel

I like big boots that are like six inches tall. They're like knee high, six inch platforms, leather, lots of zippers.

Dawn Taylor

That's amazing. You're so funny.

Reese Rempel

I spent a lot of money on chains and these big spiked collars.

Dawn Taylor

Got to love you. You're seriously so amazing. Well, Reese. Thank you, thank you, thhank you so much for joining us today and I hope listening to this, to my sister who I know is listening to this, I hope that this was interesting and insightful for you to hear a little bit more at a deeper level, what's been going on with Reese over this last little bit, but for anyone else, if you know someone who has been adopted or you've adopted kids, I hope that you listen to this episode and also check in on the one in two weeks where we dive into this from the other side as her mum is coming on the show, but also know that you're not alone, know that you're seen, you're heard, you're all of those things and I hope you got something out of this episode. Join us again in two weeks for another amazing topic, adoption from the mum's perspective, and also tell your friends, the more people that feel understood, the better. Reese, thank you, thank you, thank you for being here and thank you for having me.

Reese Rempel

You're welcome.

Dawn Taylor

Check out those show notes located at thetaylorway.ca for more information and all the contact information for myself. If you're needing to do some coaching or some healing work in your life on what's been going down or the contact information for Reese, I think we're going to put your page up for your art if it is still available because you are a phenomenal artist. Subscribe now on Apple, Spotify or wherever you listen your podcasts. And if you love the show, please leave a rating and a review. See you guys in a few weeks.

Content Warning: 

In this episode, we discuss some topics that listeners may find difficult such as sexual abuse and trauma. 

Why you would want to listen to this episode…

Glori Meldrum is in one word - a survivor. She has seen what ugliness the world had to offer and she is not ashamed to admit that it broke her in the worst of times. However, despite the trials that she’s gone through in her life, she refuses to be defined by her brokenness alone and instead finds the beauty in simply being herself and helping others. Enduring both sexual abuse and a bout with cervical cancer, Glori is here to tell her story of how getting in the arena of life and facing all of its challenges head-on is the most enlightening thing that could ever happen to her.

Who this for...

Life brings about countless hurdles and we all handle them all differently. However, there are some of us who may not know where to start when it comes to facing these challenges. For people who need that gentle push of inspiration to better themselves, look no further than this episode. 

About Dawn Taylor

Dawn Taylor is the professional ass-kicker, hope giver, life strategist, trauma specialist, and all-around badass. Dawn's journey into helping others heal began when she took her personal recovery from the trauma she experienced in her life into her own hands. While at times unconventional, Dawn’s strategic methods have helped hundreds heal from traumas such as issues related to infidelity,  overcoming addiction,  working through PTSD from sexual, emotional, and physical abuse, as well as helping cult survivors thrive. Dawn’s work has empowered entrepreneurs, stay-at-home moms, and CEOs alike to be superheroes in their own lives. Having completed thousands of hours of training from many professional programs, including the Robbins Madanes Training Institute, Dawn’s blunt honesty will challenge your thinking, broaden your awareness, and help you achieve the outstanding results you are worthy of.

Connect with Dawn here at The Taylor Way: Consultation Call | Website | Facebook | Instagram | LinkedIn

Get to know Dawn on a deeper level through her book! Order Here

P.S. I Made It, is a powerful story that grabs you through its lack of pretension and honesty. Every page reveals another layer of curious wonder at both Dawn’s life and the power of hope that moves within each of us. Dawn’s hope is that you use this book as a resource to deal with your struggles. Share it with someone who needs it. We all want to feel like someone understands what it’s like to suffer through something and – come out the other side. She describes her life as “horrifically beautiful and beautifully horrific. 

Guest Bio

Glori Meldrum is a business leader, sexual abuse survivor, mother, author, motivational speaker, and non-profit founder, with a driving passion to protect our children and advocate for sexual abuse survivors. As a survivor of child sexual abuse, Glori founded Little Warriors and the Be Brave Ranch, a first-of-its-kind, world-class, evidence-based treatment centre to help children around the world who have been sexually abused. What started off as a dream, has changed the course of so many lives and it continues to for future generations.

Guest Social Links

Email - [email protected]

Website - https://glorimeldrum.com

Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/glori.meldrum/

Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/glori.meldrum

LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/glorimeldrum/

Little Warriors - https://littlewarriors.ca/

Thanks for listening!

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Views Expressed, Legal and Medical Disclaimer

This podcast (including any/all site pages, blog posts, blog comments, forums, videos, audio recordings, etc.) is not intended to replace the services of a physician, nor does it constitute a doctor-patient relationship. Information is provided for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional medical advice. You should not use the information on this podcast for diagnosing or treating a medical or health condition. If you have or suspect you have an urgent medical problem, promptly contact your professional healthcare provider. Any application of the recommendations in this podcast/website is at the listener/reader's discretion. The views and opinions expressed are those of guests and do not necessarily reflect the opinion or policy of Dawn Taylor, The Taylor Way and or its Associates. The before mentioned are not liable for any direct or indirect claim, loss or damage resulting from the use of listening/reading to this podcast or any website and/or any website (s) linked to/from it. Listeners/readers should consult their physicians concerning the recommendations in this podcast

Transcript: 

Dawn Taylor

I am your host, Dawn Taylor, and today I am talking to the, let's see how to word you. I am talking to the firecracker, the warrior, the gentle, vulnerable spirit. Probably one of the most misunderstood humans that I've ever had the opportunity to know, tell me I'm wrong - Glori Meldrum. Before we get started, I wanna just tell you a little bit about herself so you guys can be as excited as I am. Glori is a business leader, a mom, an author, a motivational speaker, she funded Little Warriors which is, if you know anything about me, you know that even just last weekend I did a massive drive and delivered a ton of stuff out to them. I am so passionate about them and what they do. As a survivor of sexual childhood abuse, she founded Little Warriors and the Be Brave Ranch, a first of its kind, world-class evidence-based treatment center to help kids around the world who have been sexually abused, but she's also fought through a lot to get there and that is really what we're gonna be diving into today, so Ms. Glori Meldrum, welcome to the show. 

Glori Meldrum 

Thank you, love. So nice to just be in your space and your presence, it's been way too long since we had a big hug and a little snuggle so I'm just happy to be with you today. 

Dawn Taylor 

Oh, I'm so honored that you're here. So, let's dive into this. What do you wish people talked about? 

Glori Meldrum 

Gotta love you, Dawn. Started off with a loaded question. Wow, oh my. You know, most people are gonna think that I'm gonna pick sexual abuse and I'm actually not. I'm actually gonna pick something that probably no one ever thinks that I'm going to pick, and I think people need to talk about how sick we all are right now. How mentally unwell most people are surviving the last kind of three years, through COVID and all of these things is that we're not talking about actually how sick we are, right? We're not talking about not being well. You know, it's interesting, one-on-one conversations with just other readers and sitting, and you know me, I cut to the chase, and "How are you doing?" and if someone says "Good." I'm like "That's bullshit. Really, what's going on?" And I think that's there's a lot of "I'm okay." "I'm good" and I don't think that any of us can be. You know, if you look at COVID and inflation and people are six times the mortgage rate. There's so much financial, emotional pressure, and for me, I went from being diagnosed with cancer, being three years into my journey and then COVID happens and so the last five years for me have been an absolute grind, you know? In every way, and you know, it doesn't mean there's not lots of things to be grateful for. Hundred percent. But, I think that we all have to look at our behaviors and I know that's something, you and I were chatting a little bit before we got on, is that "Man, I have just been not in a good place." And you know, I got cancer from being raped by my grandfather. I got HPV. So, I had that to deal with and I had a 52% chance that I was gonna die, you know? So for me, it's, I'm starting now to process my own journey. You know, I said to you before we got on, I've been coming off a drug that's a sedative called Clonazepam and it is a fucking asshole of a drug. It's taken me nine months of syringe-cutting, got it? Like, taking my liquid to get off and my head has been just, like I've emotionally been in a storm, which people would be like "But you're speaking and you're doing all of this and you're running these businesses." Yeah, but, am I really doing any of it well? Like, is all of this shit I've eaten on my fucking plate. Am I happy? 

Dawn Taylor 

So, let's pause for a second. So, at the beginning of this, like, no one can really be doing good. So, here's something I wanna challenge you on with that. I think it comes down to, like, the definition of what good is in a lot of ways but also the level of good, but also who's in the ring doing the work, right?

Glori Meldrum 

I think, it's that, you've got people and I call them the Walking Dead and I love all of the Walking Dead and what I mean by that is dissociated, going through the motions, they're like robots. I'm not there. I'm in the fucking arena doing the work, and it is, so when I say okay, I'm in the arena. The people in the arena, they're fighting to figure out how to go through the swamp, the arena, to get to the other side. The Walking Dead don't even know there's an arena. 

Dawn Taylor

And I do like that. I do like that because a lot of people listening are gonna be like "No, but I'm doing really good, I'm fine." And it's the same as like, I run into this all the time with my work, is people like "Yeah, but I don't have trauma." I'm like "There's not a person on the planet that doesn't have some sort of trauma in their life." Trauma is any time your nervous system is jarred. Have your parents gotten divorced? Have you ever, like, have you ever been bullied? Like, come on. And, yeah, it is almost like they're the Walking Dead and I don't, this is gonna sound weird or maybe not appropriate, I don't begrudge them that. 

Glori Meldrum 

I don't either. I was there before. 

Dawn Taylor

You're living, you're a happy lad, do your thing. But I also know that having been there in the arena and having fought so fucking hard to mentally, emotionally, physically, spiritually be where I am, like it has been so much work and if I have ever made it look easy from the outside, I apologize, because it hasn't. But yeah, when you are like diving into that arena and you're really doing the work, it is hard and I do think that people aren't talking about how they all need to get in the arena right now. 

Glori Meldrum 

Well, and I think that, the arena isn't, it's bloody, it's messy, I get why people don't wanna go in there and there's parts of my life that I've been Walking Dead and just been existing. At fifty, I'm on the later side of life and, you know, God gives us all this opportunity to build a life that makes us happy, and you know, I'm just in the pursuit of finding that and I find pieces and build and all of those things, and you know that, is the ultimate piece is really just finding that happiness, that self-love, connected to spirit, all of those pieces, right? But I can tell you, I don't know if it's coming off the meds or turning fifty but you know, I just realized, I'm the problem.

Dawn Taylor

Yup. 

Glori Meldrum 

I am, I don't know how to get off a treadmill. I mean, you know, raised four kids, four businesses, all the Little Warrior stuff. I've been working a hundred hours a week for fifteen years. No wonder I'm fucking spent, right? But, I get that I built it so why did I build a life full of all of this chaos? But the beautiful thing about awareness is, I know now, I took a one-month sabbatical off in January. It's the only big break that I've ever done. 

Dawn Taylor

Good job. 

Glori Meldrum 

My girl friend Ange, I went to Palm Springs and we did a bunch of traveling. There's a video of me and she's driving the golf cart, and we're driving by all these flowers and hitting these bumps and honestly, I see a ten-year-old little kid in there. I'm laughing, I'm giggling, it was the best thirty days of my life. I had no anxiety. I had nothing. Even she, honestly, Dawn, she's like "Glori, I have never seen you this happy." And what I realized is that, I've been giving everybody else in my own patterns, right? And I've not looked after my own self, right? I've not said "No." "Stop." Like, I've not chosen to get off the treadmill. I just keep letting it feed my ego, right? And it wasn't until my husband said, he's like "When's enough? Like, you've done more than most people in the world. Like, when it's fucking enough for you?" And that, my husband doesn't say much, but when he does, you listen. 

Dawn Taylor

Oh, I have one of those husbands, too. 

Glori Meldrum 

Right, but it is enough. And I don't need to do anything else to be enough for God, I already am, you know? And, so for me, I'm really working on, and I'll even tell you what, I made a list today before I came in. 

Dawn Taylor 

That's awesome. 

Glori Meldrum 

The other day, you know, we had staff and I sent them just a really quick, blunt e-mail about you know, what they had prepared was and where it should be and I was reflecting on that being like, you know, "I should have took the time to focus on the conversation, be in that moment, and not respond as an asshole because I'm busy." Being busy doesn't give me the excuse to be an asshole. 

Dawn Taylor

Say that again. Being busy doesn't give me the excuse to be an asshole. 

Glori Meldrum 

Being busy does not, and trying to save the world, does not give me the right to be an asshole.

Dawn Taylor

Okay, can everyone listening not just like, hear that? Take that to heart, and spread that to all the assholes in your life. There's like this wild justification right now, it's like "Oh, I'm busy." and I'm like "No, no, no, you can still pause." Okay, so this is one of my weird ones with that is like, I've been paying attention lately to how people treat wait staff. Going to a networking event, going for a coffee with someone, doing a lunch with someone, whatever it is. And I'm like, do you have enough, are you solid enough with yourself that you can even pause our conversation, pause what you're in the middle of, pause from checking your phone, look the person in the eye and go "Thank you." when they set the food down. Do you have the capacity to even do that? And it's mind-blowing how little of it that I've seen.

Glori Meldrum 

Well, but I think it's important to dig deeper why that is. It's that people are not well, and if you are not well, Dawn, then you are explosive and rude and you're not in the moment. I don't judge people being in that space, I have to be accountable for mine but I don't judge. 

Dawn Taylor 

Oh, it's not even a judgment. It's a curiosity.

Glori Meldrum

But for me, they're being that way because they're not well. So what I'm saying at the beginning of the podcast is that if people are unwell, Dawn, like, they're not functioning. And so, instead of being, I have been that person. I've been focused on something else, somebody, there's been a disclosure and I'm not even looking at the barista, right? So, I think that for me, it's some of the things that I learned on my cancer journey was, like, just that non-judgment and that acceptance and that radical love for people is that we're all fucked up. We're all trying to figure out shit in life. We all wanna do better, and I just love people for even trying because life is beautiful but life isn't easy, you know? And I'll tell you going through the cancer journey, like, I didn't realize how judgmental I was, how unaccepting, and that I didn't understand grace. Those are the three gifts that cancer did give me, was that peace, right? I gotta not be going a thousand miles a minute, focus on the conversation. You know, another piece, is like listening to understand, not listening to respond to get it off my plate. Rapid-fire, and it's like yes, no, yes, no, blah, blah, blah. No, it's like "Glori, stop. Understand what that person's trying to do, right? What they're trying to say." And instead of going, like, the to-do list is so bad, you're just like tick, tick, tick. But no, you have to listen to understand. and because there's so much on my plate, I don't. But that's not everybody else's fault, I chose this journey, right, and I can choose to make changes to that journey, right? And you know, the other thing too and this one is a humbling one is that when I'm in that place of go, go, go, I'm, like, really direct and I'm really blunt. And that's why a big piece about being misunderstood is that I'm non-filtered, I'm direct, I'm blunt and most of the time it's a really good way, and people connect with it but when I get busy–

Dawn Taylor 

The intention is pure, the intention is amazing behind it but yeah, I get I'm too blunt sometimes. I always feel misunderstood. 

Glori Meldrum 

You know, honestly, there's another thing, I don't even care anymore. If I get that people, I've heard it all. "She does Little Warriors because she wants the bread." Well, nobody wants to face child sexual abuse, so you do you with that one. On the sector side, I'm the rich bitch. On the entrepreneur side, I'm the socialist. Know what I mean? I just don't give a shit anymore. This is me, this is who I am. This is the stuff I'm working on, and I'm working on being less abrupt when I'm not rooted in love, and more of a mentor and using the things that I've learned and that wisdom to be able to show up for people. So how do you switch when you're go, go, go, go, go, you gotta stop and be rooted back in love. So that's something that I'm working on right now, is like, "Stop, Glori. You're not rooted in love. You're rooted in anxiety. Got it?" You gotta step back and seeing it and pulling yourself back, that's the beautiful thing about awareness is once you have it, you can't go back. You might be trying to figure it out for a very long time but you can't go back, right? You know another thing I realized is how negative my thoughts are. Once again, it might be my meds, it might be that I'm really exhausted but, man, is there some negative shit going on in my head? And it's just last night, Dawn, that I'm like "Glori. Stop it." Be grateful to God for all of the things that you've prayed for that He's given you. Being cured from cancer is one, and that should be enough, but everyday, you want more. But, everyday, you want more. Stop it. Be fucking grateful for all you have. But that's the trauma wired in me, right? You know, and you too, is like changing that conversation in my own brain and just being grateful for every little gift, right?

Dawn Taylor

You know what, one of the things that I started years ago was telling, like, I remember the moment it happened. It was a situation with my dad and his life, and I was like "I love you, but I love me more." And that was, the big piece of it was, like, having been raised and gone through so much trauma that had taught me to the core of my being that I wasn't lovable. That I was unlovable, right? It was, like, I'm doing these things, I'm acting in this way, I'm pushing in this way, my drive is coming from this place, almost like a desperation. But also from a place of "I don't love me and I don't believe in lovable so how I do earn that?" Mine was very tied to, like, this rejection from conception, right? Of my own mom that I was like, I always felt like I had to pay penance for what I had been through and pay penance for the harm I've caused or the stress I've caused people, so I carry this weight in the back of my mind at all times of the debt that I owed everybody around me even just for being alive. Never mind if I was short with them, or sharp with them, or if I said something inappropriate or if I did something wrong, right? Or screwed up or fucked up in some way, and what it came down to was, like, I didn't love you. 

Glori Meldrum 

I think I that's a root of everything, Dawn. To be honest. 

Dawn Taylor 

Right? And so I started to grab that and it was quite a few years ago that I was like "No, no, I love you but I love me more." And that's okay, and that's where my healthy boundary is coming from, and that's where I can take steps back. Even last night, I'm the queen of working too much. I now have this, like, thyroid issue where I can't because if I work too much or have too much stress, it'll actually kill me and I'm like, I had a meeting last night and I called the woman and I was like "Hey, can we reschedule for next week?" And she's like "Yeah, are you okay, what's going on?" And I was like "I don't have the capacity."  And I know to hit my goals this month, or this year, or this quarter, whatever, I need to have this meeting today and not next week. But, I love me more than I love my bank account. I love more than the checkmark on the list that I got something done. I love me more than this concept of busy that's going on out there, because my intentions behind this action are no longer healthy. 

Glori Meldrum

Yeah, hundred percent. 

Dawn Taylor

Right? And I think that that is something more people need to figure out. 

Glori Meldrum

Well, I think if we all love each other and love ourselves, and also the world is like, it's like a high-speed train. We've never seen this much change, it's too fast, the world goes way too fast. This is not sustainable. This is crazy. The pace that we're all on, like, look at the opioid crisis, suicide, mental health crisis. It's too much, Dawn, it's too much. You know? We gotta get back to the simpler things, right? I'm making a choice not to run as hard anymore. 

Dawn Taylor

Good job, and we need to. We totally need to. This week is a big one for me, today is 27 years my husband and I have been together, the day of recording. Friday is 25 years since the aneurysm, and Monday is my birthday. So, every year, I have this five-year window of very intense emotions. And you mentioned earlier about, like a 52% chance that you were not gonna survive cancer, and I had a similar situation where it was like, they told me 50% chance I wouldn't make ten years without dying of a second aneurysm and nobody made 20. I'm sitting at 25 in 2 days, and I lived in fear of death for so long, and in fear of this D-Day as I called it for so long. Now, I'm like, I'm refusing to live in fear of that anymore and I have to, it's not even an option, I need to wake up every single day and go "Hey, what am I gonna do today to make an impact? What am I gonna do today to keep me healthy? What am I gonna do today to love myself and the people around me that deserve it?" And I refuse to kill myself, right? When it comes to like the work, and the stress, and all the other things. I'm like no, no, my boundaries have never been healthier, have never been stronger because of that. And one of the things we were talking about earlier was, you and I have been in the ring. We've been in the ring for a really long time, right? But you and I have also chosen to do things, to help people outside of us and not die, right? Not allow it to happen to us, take us out and kill us and destroy us and cause any of that. Yeah, it's created some unhealthy habits or tendencies in both of us. Hundred percent. It's I think what we love about each other. We both have that drive and intensity. But we've also done something with it, So for somebody who's listening to this today and they're like "But the ring is bloody, gory and gross, and whatever." What are some easy steps we can give people or easy tips we can give people of like "No, start here or start there. Make it bigger than yourself." 'Cause I know from myself, one of my big pivot moments was somebody had told me "You need to figure out how to take the abuse and take all this trauma and take it into something good." "You should meet my friend Glori Meldrum." And I remember coming to your office downtown and sitting on your couch in your office.

Glori Meldrum

I remember. dear. Yeah. 

Dawn Taylor

And I started showing up at The Brave Ranch every Saturday and volunteering my time and energy and physically washing walls and packing garbage and doing all of these things. And, um, there was this documentary that happened that called "Build and Be Brave" and we'll link it in the Show Notes for anyone who wants to check it out because it's on YouTube about the building process of the ranch. But that's one of the things I did, because I was like I had to take what happened to me and I have to find a way to give back. You took what happened to you when you started this world-renowned charitable organization, right? So, I'm sure people that are listening are like, "I don't have that capacity. I don't know how to do that. I don't have the money, have the time, have the energy." What is like, what are some basic steps we can give people to be like, "No, no, no. These are some easy ways to start getting in the ring." 

Glori Meldrum

You know, I think that and it was interesting, I just had a coffee I remember recently is, you know, about this conversation and I really started with "Who are you and what makes you happy?" Because I think we don't ask that, and then when we shut down, we're not present in our relationships with our spouses and our friends and so one of the things that I say to people when they're like "I really want to but I just can't." And I'm like "You know what? You already started. You're just completely vulnerable with me in where you're at. Is there a few other people in your life that are your safe that you could share your feelings where you're at?" The first step in the arena is making the choice to get in the arena. That no matter, that you wanna find the pot of gold at the end of your journey, that is joy, happiness, self-love and all of those things. It really is a choice and sometimes I run out of the arena, like, I'm not always in there. Sometimes, I'm like "I've had enough of this shit today." I run and then I gotta get back in, like, it's not, you come and go from the arena but the arena is where the work happens and we don't learn in life from the light. We actually learn in the darkness. The deepest of things. That's where I found my faith. It's all of the struggles in my life, where I found all of my experience, my gifts, my lessons, and wisdom and those pieces. It's a choice to discover yourself getting into the arena, and it's ugly. I'm a lot, I literally am at a point, I'm like, "Damn, I'm in my own way. I'm a lot." And so, how do you balance "I'm a lot." with learning and you know, finding those boundaries and those pieces. I've just been in the arena on an hourly basis and I know it well, but it's never easy. It never gets easy going back in there to figure shit out. I probably never realized that I was getting in my own way of things, like I have today, right? And that's probably just in the last week. We make the choice to get in the arena, we make the choice to be vulnerable, we make the choice to be "I'm okay, I'm good, everything's great, everything's great." "You know what? No it's not." Yes, in moments, it is, but you can't tell me that everything's great and there's not something you're working on. If you're in the arena, there's always something you're working through. You know, "I'm okay." and "I'm good." If you're saying that all the time and everything's great, you're kinda full of shit. It's muddy. If you're great, maybe you're not looking in the mirror and what the work is, and what you need to unravel. The mirror is an asshole, you know what I mean?

Dawn Taylor

Oh, it can be. 

Glori Meldrum

The best teacher but, no, you've gotta look at that and be willing to look at the pieces of you that are ugly and the pieces of you that are beautiful. I always say to people I'm beautifully broken. I'm beautifully broken and so are you, we all are. And you know, I think that when we do our own work, that's how we heal the world and the reason the world's so fucked up right now. 

Dawn Taylor

No one's doing the work. 

Glori Meldrum 

Well, and the people we consider as leaders, politicians, and businessmen that are chasing the money and chasing their career. That's who we respect? And celebrities, you know? It's a celebrity, power, ego culture. It's hard to be on the other side and be like, oh my, it's a small group of people getting in that arena, right? Like, I think if you look at it, it's ten percent of people and I'm probably being generous, that are actually awake and doing the work and ninety percent that don't wanna touch it. I think about how many deep conversations I have with people that will actually go somewhere, and I'm pretty open and it's slow-moving. Most people are like "Oh my gosh, you just dumped all that on me. You're so honest." I'm like, "Yup." I'm not gonna sugarcoat where things are at, right? I mean, the other thing you add to the journey is, you know, we've never seen child sexual abuse this bad, Dawn. You know, it's been a stressful time and I know it'll pass. I know we'll get the money to expand the ranch. God always provides. That's another thing, is that faith piece of you don't need to know the next step, you just need to know that God's got ya, and that's surrender piece. That's another piece I'm working on is surrendering all the doing and just being. But it's probably my most complex lesson on the journey. And I get, and I don't get it. 

Dawn Taylor

It's control. 

Glori Meldrum 

It is. 

Dawn Taylor

It is, and that's really scary. I often tell clients when they're trying to just get to the point where it's like "Okay, can I face anything negative or hard or like, whatever's gone on in my life?" I'm like, "Start sitting with an uncomfortable feeling." And they're like "What do you mean?" I'm like, "That's it. Step one. If you have an uncomfortable feeling this week that comes up, or like, you're angry or sad or frustrated or hurt. It doesn't matter what it is. Sit in it. Don't pick up your phone. Don't turn on the TV. Don't start a conversation." And I always picture, like, you know when you sit on a beach and you, like, wiggle butt in the sand to make your little butt pocket spots? Everyone knows exactly what I'm talking about, we've all done it, right? So, you do your little wiggle, and I would say "Just sit in it for a sec." Sit in it and be like "Hi, how are ya?" "What is this feel? What am I feeling? Where is this coming from?"  And I say it's amazing how, just like, sitting in that emotion. This isn't a bad concept, people. This is literally, sit your butt on a chair, and shut up and sit. Just rest yourself and open up your brain to the feel. Just open yourself up to the feel to be like "What is this? Where is this coming from? Am I okay with it? Is this even the appropriate emotion for what happened? Is this something from somewhere else in my life?" Like, those are some of the few questions that you can even ask yourself in the moment. But even starting there, we are so, so scared of being uncomfortable that the thought of being vulnerable, the thought of being honest, the thought of actually saying "Yeah, I'm really hurting today." is so hard, and it is so scary that sometimes that's the easiest step to start with. Just sit in your discomfort for a minute. 

Glori Meldrum

I agree, like you gotta feel those feelings, and you know, not just emotionally but in your body, right? So, I feel, I'm in like nine months of being in that, sitting in that uncomfortable space the entire time, right? But it's a season, you know. There's seasons, and I think for me this month, it'll be a bit of a shift. There's lot of great things, you know. we're doubling the size of the Warriors. We're building our Lighthouse which is the first adult treatment center for people like you and I that were sexually abused as kids, so that is kind of the next iteration of where the Warriors is going and so there's all these really exciting things and I think about the things that I'm learning, that we discussed. Although it's been a journey to figure them out, it's sitting with those today and just being, like, you know these are things that I really need to focus on, right? No one's harder on me than I am on me, ever. And I think that's probably why I don't care about what other people think, is that I don't need their stuff, good or bad. I know deep down that I'm not, that unlovable little girl that I felt like. That I would never be loved and I wasn't worthy of it. I know that I am a good human being. My intentions are always pure. Always. But, they sometimes don't come across that way if I'm really rushed or whatever, and I'm like really quick on text, you know. Sometimes, they don't, right? And that can be hurtful to people, and that's not okay, right. I always say in a difficult situation, "What did you learn?" And I always think it's fascinating, you know, and if people are in a fearful place or like, "I learned that it's basically all the other person's fault." "You're actually not learning." Like, this is what I see, and this is my learning out of it. I always joke about forgiveness. I think it's just a fascinating thing, is that I say when it's not, say, you committed 2% of the situation. 10, or 5, or 50, or all of it. Do you know, Dawn, that I will take it off? You know what, I will take it off. "I am sorry if I made you feel that way. That was not my intention. I am telling you. I am sorry, I am sorry, I am sorry." I don't give a flying fuck who owns it. It doesn't matter. What matters is we can reconnect and move on and learn and grow. Be the brave person that just says, practice it "I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry." We don't, and I think back to how many people have ever actually apologized when they've been a shithead to me? It's very low. But, it doesn't matter, Dawn, because at the end of the day, I know where that comes from and why they were gonna be an asshole and I can't judge them, I'm an asshole sometimes. 

Dawn Taylor

Then the actions to go with it, like, words are one thing but are you changing your actions?

Glori Meldrum

You gotta look in the mirror and be like "You know what, this is the stuff that isn't very great about me. I gotta work on it. But, these are the things that are amazing about me, got it? I wanna own those things, too, right?" It's a balance. It's the balance of when you love yourself and you know you're good, you can look at the mirror at those things that you gotta work on, right? But, you know, you can always tell where someone's at when you ask that question about what did you learn from, especially courageous conversations, like I really find what people are running from when they're getting triggered but you gotta have them. You gotta have them, Dawn. That's how we learn, it's courageous conversations. You can't run. You can't run, it's gonna find you. It's your lesson, you gotta work, you're with the person and love people enough to be courageous and talk about the conflict. Get comfortable. Get fucking comfortable in your life. 

Dawn Taylor

You know what's funny? I've done a lot of work and I'm at this point in my life now where my husband laughs at me because when I find, you know, those little scabs. That look in the mirror moment where you're like "Oh, oh, that's a thing.I have to figure that out." or "I have to work to that." or "Ooh, there's something there to process." I get excited, and I think it's because I've gone through it so many times, I've fought in the ring so many times where I'm now at a point where I know what it feels like on the other side. Like, when you push through the hard thing, how amazing it is on the other side. I'm not saying the process of working through it is exciting and amazing or easy but when those things come up, instead of being "Oh, fuck. Here we go." I'm like "Oh, cool! New level!" Like, I really shifted, I had to shift my perspective on that because there were so many traumas that I compiled for so many years and there was so much baggage to go through that it felt like my brain was the Toronto Airport in COVID with, like, the luggage stadiums. Did you see any of those pictures online? Like, that's what it felt like with my trauma, and I was like "I don't even know where to start." So, if I look it as just overwhelming and it's just hard and it's just horrible and this is gonna suck horribly to go through, I shut down, where if I was like "No, no, no, I just gotta figure out one suitcase. I just need to find one piece of luggage and hand it to their owner and then I can grab a second one and I can hand it to their owner." Right? Like, when I could shift it to look at it that way, and it's okay, it's okay. 

Glori Meldrum

Little bite-sized pieces, right? 

Dawn Taylor

Little bite-sized pieces, right? I don't have to do the whole stadium of luggage today. I can just take this little bite-sized piece. That makes it so much easier for my brain. So much less scary. 

Glori Meldrum

Yeah, I think it's like anything in life is that it's just one step at a time, right? Like, once you decide to get in the arena and do the stuff and, but, you know, you made a point that people will look at me and assume different things. I'm still on the path, man. I'll always be on the path. I'm always gonna do the work but I really do try to show up every single day, you know? I might not do well. I'm a fly on the windshield, depends on the day but I'm in there, I'm doing the work, right? And, you know, the people I surround with in my life are the people doing the work. People getting in the arena or already in the arena, right? Those are the people that I respect because I know how hard it is, right? I know how hard it is to get in there and do the work.

Dawn Taylor

Totally. For people listening, get in the damn arena. I promise it's worth it. I promise it's amazing, and there's so many of us here to support. 

Glori Meldrum 

We're living in a trauma world, like really. The trauma in the world is off the charts right now. Like, if we can find our own way back to ourselves then we can find our own way back to each other, and I think that's the main thing that's missing right now, Dawn, is that we're individually lost and we're lost as a collective, right? But it's through self that we're gonna be able to find that, right? The more people get in the arena, then the world changes. But until we all get in, right? So we can just shine our light, have this conversation and hope more people can join us, right?

Dawn Taylor

It's what I do what I do. It's like if I can make that impact, if I can make an impact and get one person in the arena or two people or ten people or a thousand people in the arena, they can go and help other people do the same. So, I know you have a hard out so this episode's gonna be a little bit shorter because I mean, as you've heard, Gloria's very bored of her life and has nothing going on. I mean, she doesn't have the chaotic schedule and all. I am just so honored that I even got this hour of her time. 

Glori Meldrum

You know, I'm so grateful to have been able to connect and share just this honorable and vulnerable space of where we're at and if you ever meet me and I ask you how you are, be honest. 

Dawn Taylor 

Be honest. 

Glori Meldrum

Be honest, because I'll keep prodding to really figure it out. I love being curious about where people are in their lives, in the arena or getting into the arena or seeing the arena, like, I just love that piece, you know? I mentioned before about just tribe and people you're surrounded with, like, when I got sick, Dawn, it wasn't my Tier 1 friends, right? The friends that I had fun and laughed and we giggled, and we drank wine and we shopped. It wasn't those friends that had me and helped me up. It was my Tier 2. My Tier 1s, like, literally some of them walked away after 25 years. It was my Tier 2 that stepped up, Julianna, that you know. My girl friend Sarah. You know, there was a group of them and now they're my tribe. That Tier 1 is gone and the Tier 2 is now my 1 and they are my rocks. They are all in the arena, they will take a bullet for me, I would take a bullet for them. 

Dawn Taylor 

But when we're not in the arena, we attract people that aren't in it. 

Dawn Taylor

Hundred percent. 

Glori Meldrum

Julianna was over washing my hair. I was so depressed when I had cancer, I was so sick, I couldn't wash my hair. She was washing my hair. I am so blessed to know the depth of real friendship, real sisterhood, real brothers. They had me and Julianna one time said to me, "I worry you're gonna get to where you need to go and you'll never remember me." I said, "Sweetheart." 

Dawn Taylor 

You're not going anywhere. 

Glori Meldrum 

What we shared can never be taken. The journey that my friends shared with me on the cancer journey. Like my girl friend Sarah being like, "You're 1% better this week." And I was like, "Really? Oh, my God. I'll take it." 'Cause I was so ill, but everyday, she'd talk me off the roof, you know? They got me better. They got me functioning again. My team at G-Squared, my team at Little Warriors, like, they had me, Dawn. You know? They held me up when I was so weak I couldn't stand. If you don't have that tribe, look in the mirror and say "Why don't I have that tribe? Is it because I'm not in the arena and I'm attracting all of these other people?" Right? Who you attract and where you are in your space.

Dawn Taylor

Yup, hundred percent. Love it!

Glori Meldrum 

I'm privileged to be with you, dear, and I'm going on an adventure of a lifetime to Italy. I'm sure I'm going to learn lots and continue unraveling that onion and that journey that is my own personal one, right? I'm going to connect with you when I'm back.

Dawn Taylor

So let's ask you, I have a few silly questions at the end of every single episode that I'm gonna ask you like I do everyone. 

Glori Meldrum 

Alright, I don't know these, this is gonna be fun. 

Dawn Taylor

I love it. What is your secret guilty pleasure way to decompress? And I've heard it all.

Glori Meldrum

To decompress.

Dawn Taylor

It's your silly thing. Like, is there a TV show? Is it, I mean I know one person who said masturbation. Like, I've heard it all, literally.

Glori Meldrum

Oh, I have, like, a whole bunch of things. Like, hot yoga, I freaking love. I love watching TV, it's a bad thing but it does test my brain.

Dawn Taylor

No, not at all. What kind of TV are you watching?

Glori Meldrum

Like, all the gangster shit. The action, the plop, plop, plop, plop. The other thing is I blare Eminem so I love Eminem–

Dawn Taylor

Me too!

Glori Meldrum 

People are like Christian music to rapper? I know! I love that. You know what, I love to dance. I love to play Eminem and dance in the bathroom in the morning and just get my groove on. Like, I've got a whole track in my Spotify, grooving. All this, like, I'll literally be like, grooving and just being silly, you know?

Dawn Taylor

In the zone. I love that so much, I love that so much, and I'm sure anyone who's listening that knows you is like "What?" They're totally loving it. They're totally loving it. 

Glori Meldrum

People assume like "Oh my gosh, you like country?" I'm like "Yeah, I grew up in the Maritimes. Yeah, judge me, I don't care." I listen to it everyday, you know? At the end of the day, I'm that little girl, you know? I will always be that Glori. You know, I just grown up and I learned but the end of the root of who I am is still that little girl, right?

Dawn Taylor

We never get too far away. We never get too far away from the roots of where we're at. Describe yourself in one sentence. 

Glori Meldrum

Oh, shit. Um, and for a person who does a lot of media. 

Dawn Taylor 

It can be totally silly. 

Glori Meldrum

I'm gonna pick a word that I am and then I wanna be. 

Dawn Taylor

Perfect. 

Glori Meldrum 

So I'm, I would say most people would be like "She's driven into anything." Driven or gritty, or resilient, those pieces. But what I actually want my word to be, one word, is "love". I want people to be like "Glori is just love." 

Dawn Taylor

So she's a driven, motivated, gritty ball of love. 

Glori Meldrum

But I actually wanna get rid of all those other words and just be like, "I'm love." In every area of my life, I am just love. I come from love, right? I'm love. And that's the journey I'm working on to get to and I'm there but not there all the time, so I'm working to get to that space. 

Dawn Taylor

God, it's so fun. Last one, what do you spend a silly amount of money?

Glori Meldrum

Well, I lost like forty pounds, and I'm like a zero, and so I traded in all my designer stuff, I'm not even kidding. Like, this is how much my life has changed. I'm like "Why do I have all this shit? How can one person own this much stuff?" I had a really bad shopping habit, I'm financially doing well so it didn't matter but it's an addiction. Like why do I need it that big? So now, it's really funny, my addiction and what I spend silly amounts on, you're gonna laugh. I'm, like, a thrifter. I got a jean skirt for ten dollars and one for twenty so I would say now that I'm, like, also morphing into my own physical body that that body that had all that extra weight, there is a reason, right? It's never, there is a reason we have health problems, there's a reason we carry weight and overeat. 

Dawn Taylor

Hundred percent. 

Glori Meldrum 

So, for me, I think that my journey is also aligning. If you look at the things I'm working on and how much weight I've shed, like, that's wild. So, my silly thing is, like, Aritzia. I'm like "I can wear tank tops. I don't have to stop anymore." And I'm sure my kids are absolutely fucking mortified that I'm in like, Levi's, and a little, tiny top. 

Dawn Taylor

Mama's flauntin' her stuff. 

Glori Meldrum 

Totally not, you know? But just spending a lot of money on, like, little crop tops and things I was never able to wear, right? And not that I was ever big, and even coming from this, I was a size 6, so I don't need all this shit anymore. So, my husband's like, "What are you doing with all the money?" I'm like, "Travel fund, baby." I wanna go to Greece and I wanna go to Ireland. I'm trading in my shopping for travel. Now, I literally just buy things that are inexpensive and it makes me happy, so I'm getting rid of all the expensive things and be like "I feel great in this shirt and these jeans." Right? Even if it horrifies my kids, it doesn't matter. 

Dawn Taylor

I love it. So, thank you so so so much for hanging out with me. 

Glori Meldrum

Thank you, Dawn. 

Dawn Taylor

I hope that something that you heard today as a listener could help, shifted something in you and proved you're not alone. Join us again in two weeks for another amazing topic and please tell your friends. The more people that feel understood better. Check out the Show Notes located at thetaylorway.ca for more information and for all the contact information for Ms. Glori Meldrum and how you can support Little Warriors as well. Subscribe now on Apple, Spotify or wherever you listen your podcasts and if you love the show, it would mean the world to me if you would leave a rating and a review. 

Content Warning: miscarriage, depression, death

In this episode, we discuss some topics that listeners may find difficult such as miscarriages, medical, and health complications regarding miscarriages,and postpartum depression.

Why you would want to listen to this episode…

While many of us are aware of the joy of pregnancy and childbirth, not many are willing to open up about miscarriages, an unfortunate event that can happen. In this episode, Dawn talks to Samantha Foote, a woman who has gone through a miscarriage. Samantha gives us an inside look at how she and her family went through the tragedy, and how she found strength and comfort in the people who were closest to her. Miscarriages are rarely talked about, and this episode is a must-listen for those who want an unfiltered view of the topic.

Who is this episode for? 

For women who have gone through miscarriages or any major complications during a pregnancy, this episode is a reminde that you are not alone. Furthermore, couples who are planning to have children wishing to learn more about possible negative scenarios, or those who are curious about a topic related to pregnancy that’s nearly treated as a taboo, this episode is for you. 

About Dawn Taylor

Dawn Taylor is the professional ass-kicker, hope giver, life strategist, trauma specialist, and all-around badass. Dawn's journey into helping others heal began when she took her personal recovery from the trauma she experienced in her life into her own hands. While at times unconventional, Dawn’s strategic methods have helped hundreds heal from traumas such as issues related to infidelity,  overcoming addiction,  working through PTSD from sexual, emotional, and physical abuse, as well as helping cult survivors thrive. Dawn’s work has empowered entrepreneurs, stay-at-home moms, and CEOs alike to be superheroes in their own lives. Having completed thousands of hours of training from many professional programs, including the Robbins Madanes Training Institute, Dawn’s blunt honesty will challenge your thinking, broaden your awareness, and help you achieve the outstanding results you are worthy of.

Connect with Dawn here at The Taylor Way: Consultation Call | Website | Facebook | Instagram | LinkedIn

Get to know Dawn on a deeper level through her book! Order Here

P.S. I Made It, is a powerful story that grabs you through its lack of pretension and honesty. Every page reveals another layer of curious wonder at both Dawn’s life and the power of hope that moves within each of us. Dawn’s hope is that you use this book as a resource to deal with your struggles. Share it with someone who needs it. We all want to feel like someone understands what it’s like to suffer through something and – come out the other side. She describes her life as “horrifically beautiful and beautifully horrific”. 

Guest Bio

Samantha’s mission is to strengthen, guide, and empower parents, children, and adults to develop emotional awareness, improve social skills, and gain effective coping skills resulting in improved peer relationships, increased family harmony, and a calmer & more relaxed demeanor. She is a board-certified neurologic music therapist, a Positive Discipline Parent Educator, and a registered Music Together teacher. She obtained a Bachelor of Science degree from Utah State University and recently completed her Masters of Music with a specialization in Music Therapy degree from Colorado State University.

When she is not working, Samantha enjoys spending time with her husband, children, and extended family. They enjoy fishing, camping, and other outdoor adventures.

Guest Social Links

E-mail - [email protected]

Instagram Link www.instagram.com/everybrainisdifferent

Facebook Link www.facebook.com/everybrainisdifferent

Linked In Link https://www.linkedin.com/in/samantha-foote-6891a393/

Website URL https://everybrainisdifferent.castos.com/

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Transcript

DAWN TAYLOR

I am your host, Dawn Taylor, and today we are talking to the courageous Samantha Foote. And the reason I say that is we are going to be diving deep on the topic of miscarriages. So before we get started, I want to tell you a little bit about our guest today so that you can be as excited as I am. Samantha is a mom, wife, a podcaster herself, but she's also a board- certified neurologic music therapist. That sounds cool. I'm like, I don't even know what that means, but that's amazing. A positive discipline and parent educator, a registered music teacher. She's a bachelor of science, a master's of music. She's done all kinds of crazy things. She loves fishing, camping, other outdoor adventures. She is a passionate woman about all things and I love it, I love it so much. And she has courageously decided to come on here today and talk about miscarriages. So, welcome to the show, Samantha, what is it that you wish people had actually been talking about? 

SAMANTHA FOOTE

I wish that people would actually talk about miscarriage and that it's so common. It's in 25% of women, I think.

DAWN TAYLOR

Yeah.

SAMANTHA FOOTE

And so no one talks about it. That we know of. It's in 25% of women. Like, the last thing that I saw.

DAWN TAYLOR

Right. Hey, so let's talk about this. I know so many people. I don't think I know people that haven't had a miscarriage at this point in my life, right. Like so many people have. And one of the things that we had talked about prior to jumping on this recording is all of the emotions that go into it, all of like, the before, the during, the after, all of the shifts and changes so let's dive right into this. Tell us a little bit about your story.

SAMANTHA FOOTE

I don't know if it's different, but I was done having kids. I didn't want any more kids. I was done. I had three kids. I got rid of all my baby stuff. I was just like, I need to have another baby. And I felt like that was, like, God telling me, you need to have another baby. Another person needs to come into your family. And so I was like, okay, fine. I'll get pregnant. I'll have a baby. It will be awesome. And then it took a while. Usually when I try to get pregnant, I get pregnant right away. And it took a few months, and I was like, "What is this?" But I got pregnant, and everything was fine, but I wasn't feeling as sick as I normally feel. And I'm like, well, this is awesome. I'm not as sick as I normally am during pregnancy. And we went to the first appointment. Everything was great. They said, the baby is growing. The baby is right where it needs to be. All this stuff. And then about a month later, I went back for just a routine prenatal appointment. And the doctor was like, "Well, this darn thing. I can't find a heartbeat using this doppler. But, you know, it happens all the time. So I'm just going to get our little ultrasound machine." And then he brings in the ultra sound machine. And I wasn't even thinking that anything was wrong at this point. I'm like, "Oh, everything's fine." And he's like, "Oh, I can't find what I need to find using this ultrasound machine. We need you to go get an actual ultrasound." 

At this point, I'm like, "oh, something's wrong. Something might be wrong with my baby." And so I went to get luckily, they got me right in because it was spur of the moment and so sometimes you have to wait a while. But luckily they got me right in. And I knew as soon as she, 'cause I've been in a lot of other ultrasounds before, and I knew as soon as she turned on the sound to listen to the heartbeat, there was just complete silence. And I was like, "The baby looks a little weird. I feel like it should be bigger or something." And there was just complete silence, and that was the most awful moment of my entire life. And then the nurse was just, the ultrasound tech, just said, "I can't find a heartbeat. I need to go get the doctor." And just left me in the room by myself. I had no one there with me. I just found out my baby had died, and she just, I don't know what I want medical professionals to do, but something other than, "I can't find a heartbeat. I need to go get the doctor." And then they just left me in the room for a while, and the nurse comes in, and she's like "You need to come back and talk to the doctor." Nothing like "I'm so sorry. Can I get you anything?" I don't know. It was just very cold, I felt like. 

And so I went back to the doctor's office, and he was like, "Well, these are your options. You can let it pass naturally. But, the baby died a month ago." It was the day after my first ultrasound that the baby stopped growing. And he was like, "So, I don't recommend, like, waiting because it's already been in there dead for a month, and that can lead to infection and stuff." And I was like, "Oh." and I'm still processing - my baby's dead. And he just went through the options. He's like, you can do a DNC. "We can get you medication to try and pass it naturally. What do you want to do?" And I'm like, "I don't know."

DAWN TAYLOR

How far along you were again, at this point?

SAMANTHA FOOTE

I was almost twelve weeks. 

DAWN TAYLOR

Okay, so you have been sitting with this pregnancy for a while already, like, you had known you were pregnant?

SAMANTHA FOOTE

Yeah, I was puking every day. All the normal pregnancy things, it just wasn't as severe as the other pregnancies were. And so the doctor is like, "Well, I think you need to get a DNC." And so I scheduled that, but then it was like five days later and I don't know, once again, I don't know what I expect the medical community to do. This is an unexpected thing, but just to sit there with like, the baby still inside you and just, 

DAWN TAYLOR

Hey, what about compassion?

SAMANTHA FOOTE
Yeah.

DAWN TAYLOR

I get that they do this every day. I get that this is their world. But, even to pause and say "I'm sorry." Even to pause and go, "I know that this is very difficult for you to process right now. Do we need to call someone?" Like, wow, what has our world come to? 

SAMANTHA FOOTE

There was none of that. There was just like, well, this is what's happened. And then he's like, "I'm sure you can get pregnant again. I don't think it would be a problem." I'm like, "I am not even thinking about that right now." No, wait, I did ask. I was like, well, "Do we know the reason why this happened? Can we do testing?" Because I know a lot of women that have multiple miscarriages, and the doctor doesn't do anything to test or see what's wrong until they've had three. And, I don't know why we're not doing this the first time it happens, because why do you want to put a woman and man like, just a couple through that when you don't have to? I went to a person, nurse practitioner, after everything happened, and she's like, yeah, "You're low on progesterone. If you would have been taking progesterone, you probably wouldn't have had a miscarriage. Like, I can't say for sure, but if you get pregnant again, you need to go on progesterone." And I have heard that helping for so many women, and their doctor doesn't say anything about it until they've had three miscarriages. I don't understand that.

DAWN TAYLOR
So, what ended up happening for you? 

SAMANTHA FOOTE

I got a DNC, and that was the awful experience, not the actual procedure that I got done. But I said, "Are there any side effects that I should know about that I should be looking for?" And they're like, "No, you're going to bleed for a few days, and then you'll be good to go." I said, "Okay, that's great." I didn't bleed at all. And then after that, I couldn't stop. And so I asked my doctor, "What do I do about this?" And he's like, "Well, just let it go on for a little while. We can put you on birth control and see if the helped." And I was like, "Well, I can't take birth control because it makes me crazy." Then one day, I don't even know what the heck happened, but this might be gruesome. I don't know. 

DAWN TAYLOR

Okay. I mean, any man who's listening to this right now, a) you probably should be, so you understand? So if you're married, you know what your wife is potentially going through or could go through, but a woman going through it. If this is gross right now, pause or skip forward 30 seconds in this podcast, or just listen and hear what happened. 

SAMANTHA FOOTE

Yeah. So they told me there'd be no side effects from the DNC. And all of a sudden, I just could not stop bleeding, clots. It was just like clots of blood were just falling out of me. And I literally thought I was dying because it felt like I was in labor. It was the worst pain. It was worse than labor. It was the worst pain I've ever felt in my life. And I think I went into shock or something. I don't know what happened, but I was calling everyone I knew. I was like, "What do I do? What do I do?" And my sister in law lives next door, so she came over, and she's a nurse, and so she's like, "We need to get you to the emergency room right now."  She took me to the emergency room. They ran a bunch of tests and did ultrasound to make sure that my uterus was closed. But, they're like, "We don't know what happened. You're better now. Go home." And that just kept happening. I went to the ER, like, three or four more times, and they were like ,one doctor was like, "You need to stop coming here. You're fine." I'm like, "I'm not fine." And all this was happening while I was still grieving. And I was afraid for my body, for what was happening, and I was still grieving my baby. And it was horrific.

DAWN TAYLOR

I'm so sorry. 

SAMANTHA FOOTE

Thank you. 

DAWN TAYLOR

The things that we deal with as humans that nobody talks about. 

SAMANTHA FOOTE

Yeah. 

DAWN TAYLOR

Right? And people go through this over and over and over. So I will put a caveat out there that some people miscarry and have no issues with it. Some people, they don't connect to the baby in utero yet because they haven't felt the kicking or they haven't seen the heartbeat or they haven't done any of those things. And they're fine. And that's beautiful. But for yourself and for a lot of people at twelve weeks, that was your child. 

SAMANTHA FOOTE

Yeah. Right. 

DAWN TAYLOR

And it's incredibly hard. It's incredibly hard on you. So how long did this go on for before you finally started to, I mean, a) feel human again but also for your body to recover? 

SAMANTHA FOOTE

My body recovered. I finally went and saw a nurse practitioner. Well, I talked to my OB and he was like, we're going to put you on birth control in the mini-pill because it's not as hormonal. And I still kept bleeding. And still kept bleeding. And so I was like and the mini-pill was, like, making me crazy. And so I'm like, "Well, I need to go off of this, but what do I do about the bleeding?" And they're like, "Well, that was never going to stop the bleeding." And I'm like, "Why'd you put me on it?" I was also having symptoms of like, my legs would go numb and I couldn't breathe. And so I went to a nurse practitioner, and she ran a thyroid panel. Ferridin, iron. What else? Progesterone. That's where we found out that I was low on Progesterone, really low on iron. And my thyroid was I had hypothyroidism. And so, once I got the progesterone, changed my life. I finally stopped bleeding, and I have normal normalcy now. And the iron made it so I wasn't feeling numb. And I could breathe again because oxygen wasn't getting to my body because I was so low on iron. So, yeah. My body healed about August, so it was about five months. And. I'm still working on getting fast in this carriage. It's been a year. It was a year in March. The hardest thing was I told my kids that when I was pregnant, I was like, "Oh, you're going to have a brother or sister." And they were so excited. And they were seven and five and two at the time, so the two year old had no idea what was going on. She was just like, "Whatever." But, then I had to tell them that the baby died, and they didn't really react to it at all. They didn't do anything. They're just like, "Okay." And then after that, my five year old started just hating me. Like, he would tell me, "I hate you." all the time. And he would just be very physically aggressive with me and verbally aggressive. And I was like, "What is going on?" So we got him in counseling, and he does behavioral intervention because he has autism and, about six weeks after I told him about the miscarriage, he started being kinder towards me and not disliking me so much. And then he was talking to his behavioral therapist and said, "I was really mad at my mom, but now we're good." She's like, "Oh, why were you mad? And he's like, "Because the baby died. She made the baby die." 

DAWN TAYLOR

Let's just sit with that for a second. In that moment, I want to talk about the emotions that go into a miscarriage. So for listeners, if you've listened to any of my episodes, you know that I couldn't have kids and I couldn't be a mom. And that comes with its own set of emotions. But what are some of the emotions that go with having a miscarriage? What are some of the beliefs that we've bought into as a woman, even on what a miscarriage means? Let's talk about that for a sec.

SAMANTHA FOOTE

Yeah. I was in complete despair. There's only been one other time in my life that I was that hopeless and just not I didn't want to go on. I was like, I did something to cause this. 

DAWN TAYLOR

Hey, right? I'm going to cause this. This is my fault. Right? So the guilt, the shame, the victimizing of ourselves in that moment, and then to also have your child kind of tell you you murdered their sibling. 

SAMANTHA FOOTE

Yeah, exactly. 

DAWN TAYLOR

 I shouldn't laugh. I'm, like, just think about that for a second. And for anybody listening, if you have gone through this and you've had a miscarriage, I am so incredibly sorry, but 

please hear me when I say this. You didn't do anything wrong. You did nothing wrong. 

You didn't cause it. There's not a way that you short of actually potentially how do I word it? Short of actually intentionally causing harm to your own body to cause a miscarriage. 

It's nature. It's science. It's it, there's nothing you could have done. Right. And, I mean, we're not doctors, so go see a doctor. Both the progesterone go ask these questions, but with that as well, is, like, be an advocate for yourself. Like, step up and fight for yourself, when it comes to your health. But, those emotions how did your family deal with it? How did your husband deal with it? How did they support you? 

SAMANTHA FOOTE

My family and my friends were so supportive. Like, my mom took my kids for, I think, almost a week just so I could get ready for the DNC, process everything and yeah, then have some time to heal. And my in laws actually took my kids the day it happened, and they spent some time with them because my kids didn't need to see me. I was a wreck. But it was weird. In that moment, I was like, all I want is to hug my kids. I just wanted to be with them. But at the same time, I was glad for the solitude, I guess. 

DAWN TAYLOR

To process. 

SAMANTHA FOOTE

And my friends, they brought me flowers, they brought me self care kits and just so many things. And I actually put it so a week before I found out, I put on Facebook that I was pregnant. Everyone kept congratulating me on it because it was so new. And so I put out there. Something about it just didn't work out. I had a miscarriage. And I had so many people reach out to me and be like, thank you for talking about it. And they just said, thank you for telling us that this happened so we can support you. And this is my experience. And I had so many people's experiences of their miscarriages and how they brought me food, but at the same time, it's all that happening. It was the most lonely experience of my life. I don't even know how to describe it. Well, I know that other people were going through it, but at the same time, it felt like no one understands what's happening right now because of the circumstances that happened before I got pregnant, why I was having this child. And I'm so grateful for people reaching out. But I've talked talked to a lot of other women about miscarriage, and they're like, it is a very lonely experience. I feel like people give you about two weeks, and then after that two weeks, you should be back to normal. You should be back to normal life. And I was still grieving. So that time, that's when I felt more alone. I'm like, "Oh, I just need to get back to life." Get back to normal, because life has to go on. And it's okay to take time. It's okay to take all the time you need to grieve. No matter what you're grieving. If you're grieving, take the time. It's fine. 

DAWN TAYLOR

It's so important. It is so important. So in that, how did your husband deal with it? 

SAMANTHA FOOTE

I don't know, because he wouldn't talk to me. He seemed like he was doing fine, so we never really talked about it, like. we talked about it in that I was like, "This is how I'm feeling." And he'd just be like, "Yes, I agree." So it's really hard to, I think it's hard for men, especially because well, my husband did say this. He said it was hard to grieve to show my grief because I was supporting you, and so I had to be strong for you. And I was like, and it's like that whenever I had kids. He got postpartum suppression depression, the male version of it. And I had postpartum depression, but mine was so severe. Everyone was focused on me, and I was trying to focus on him. It was just a mess. But I think that people need to remember the partner in a miscarriage. It's not just the person that was pregnant. Like, everyone's grieving. 

DAWN TAYLOR

It's interesting. Everyone is. And you hear all these statements about, like, you need to wait till you're at least three months before you tell people. Right? Anybody, even your kids. So that, if there is a miscarriage, that nobody knows. 

SAMANTHA FOOTE

Yeah. 

DAWN TAYLOR

And while I think that that is very smart to do right again, can't say this from experience, but yes, it saves a lot of it, but it does also create a very lonely situation. And I've been talking to friends lately about menopause. No one talks about menopause, no one talks about postpartum, no one talks about any of these things. No one talks about miscarriage. Right. And in the grieving process, I wonder sometimes that people don't understand that 

it's not just the loss of a child, it's the loss of the child's future. 

SAMANTHA FOOTE

Yeah. 

DAWN TAYLOR

So tell me if I'm wrong, but as soon as you found out you were pregnant, you also went into, like, how is this going to fit with the three kids and where's the bedroom going to be and what's this going to look like and what are we going to name them? And how is this going to play out? We create this massive story on what's going to happen with this child, and it's no different than when we're grieving anything or anybody, right? We've already pre-created the future on it and on how all of it's going to go down. Right? Yeah, exactly. Then when it dies, whether it is a child or even a dream job or, like, a parent or grandparent or life, as it was supposed to be known as, right. Like, how it was supposed to go down. You're not just grieving the loss of the child with the thing in the moment. It's the whole future that you have to unravel, right? It's like you knit too far on your scarf, and now you have to unravel all of that and take out that thread and then reravel it again. 

SAMANTHA FOOTE

Yeah, I started getting my baby stuff back from people that I loaned it to. Well, that sounds weird. I gave it to them, but I was like, hey, I'm pregnant. And they're like, oh, we're not using this. You can use it. Totally. It was from my husband's cousin. And then my mother in law bought an outfit for the baby, and so I had that hanging up, and I was all excited. And I actually did have dreams about the baby being in our family and growing up, and it was really interesting, but I just had all these dreams. Like, very vivid dreams of the baby in our family and growing into toddlerhood. And that sounds really weird, but I envisioned the future, like you said, and because I was so certain that I was supposed to have a baby, I didn't think that anything bad was going to happen. But, things happened.

DAWN TAYLOR

They really do. So for someone else going through this, a couple of different pieces, number one, what do you recommend? What do you recommend?

SAMANTHA FOOTE

Telling people? Tell people especially. Okay, I had a chemical pregnancy through five years ago. Your body thinks you're pregnant, but you're not actually pregnant. 

DAWN TAYLOR

Oh, crazy. 

SAMANTHA

Okay. So I got, like, a positive pregnancy test and everything, and I was really tired. I had pregnancy symptoms, but there was never a baby. And so I would consider that a miscarriage too. But at that time, I was only six weeks. It was only six weeks along, and so I didn't tell anyone, and that was awful. And actually, I told my boss. Because I had to miss work. And she's like, Well, "I don't understand why you have to leave. Like, you're just bleeding." And so I would say, advocate for yourself in healthcare and in your workplace, because if your work can't give you a few days off to have a miscarriage, then you might need to rethink working there. I told my boss, I was like, "I'm taking a few days off. I'm not sitting in the office having horrible pain and dealing with all my emotions while I'm trying to work. That's not fair to anybody." But, I have heard stories of women that their bosses are like, "No, you have to work." And they will sit there working while this awful thing is happening to them, and that's not okay. Employers need to do better. Employees need to stand up for themselves and be like. "No, this is not happening." 

DAWN TAYLOR

Yeah. So, I know that in Canada, is there I don't know if you can get parental leave unless you're so far along? 

SAMANTHA FOOTE

You can get FMLA. I think the problem, I don't know how it works exactly, but I know you can get FMLA, which is the Family Medical Leave Act. 

DAWN TAYLOR

Okay. And you're in the States. 

SAMANTHA FOOTE

Yeah. And you can get that, but there are certain criteria you have to meet to get it. But, I know you can get that at any time for any family medical issues. It doesn't just have to be after you have a baby, but there are a lot of requirements in order to get that, which is ridiculous. Um, but we don't have to get into that. 

DAWN TAYLOR

No, but it's also, like it's made so hard, and I think, too, like I said earlier, everybody deals with it different. Everybody grieves it different. Everyone processes it different. So, for someone going through it, you were talking about tell people, fight for yourself, take the time off. Like, do what you need to do. Now, what about for a spouse or friends or family supporting during that time? What do you recommend or what do you wish you had 

SAMANTHA FOOTE

This is the second time it happened, I was very well supported because I actually told people, and I was farther along, so people recognized it more. The first time I had a miscarriage, everyone's like, "Oh, you're only six weeks. You're not even pregnant." I was like, "But I thought I was pregnant."

DAWN TAYLOR

Your body didn't have to recover the same, but your mind had to. 

SAMANTHA FOOTE

Yeah, and I think that one was easier for me to recover from because I got pregnant, like, the next month, and now I'm not planning on getting pregnant again, so I'm never going to have that baby, which is a whole emotional mess. But, I wish that people would just acknowledge it and say, how can I support you? And I know that, just doing anything, really, Just acknowledging it. So, I had people bring me food. I had people bring me flowers. One of my best friends brought me a self-care kit that had all my favorite things. And, she gave me a stuffed bear because she also had a miscarriage. And, she's like, "Somebody gave me this bear to hold on to instead of holding my baby, and it helped me." And so just people, like, doing really anything. I had someone bring me a loaf of bread that they made, and I was like, "Oh, thank you so much." I had someone loan me a picture. She was like, "You can't have this because I don't know where to buy it, but you can have it for a while." And it was just a picture of Jesus with a baby or with a child. My baby is in Jesus's arms. And then I actually found a picture at a bookstore of, like, hands giving a baby to, like, God. And so you're just giving them up to Him. 

DAWN TAYLOR

That was awesome. 

SAMANTHA FOOTE

So, those are things that help me. Yeah. And counseling. Get counseling. 

DAWN TAYLOR

Talk about that for a sec. 

SAMANTHA FOOTE

I have been in counseling for about ten years, off and on, and had stopped for a while before because I was like, "I'm good. I'm doing awesome." And then I had this miscarriage and just having someone there to talk things through and not judge you and just offer suggestions of things you might do. But, if you tell them you don't want suggestions, then they won't give you suggestions, and they'll just listen. And it was very valid. They're like, you have a lot going on in your life. Take the time to grieve. They give you the permission. They gave me the permission that I needed to do what I need to do for myself. And that was awesome. And just having someone to talk to that's not a family member, so you don't feel like you're burdening your family and friends. I talk a lot, and so I feel like I'm always a burden on my family and friends. And so having a counselor was a really good outlet for me to talk to them and talk things through. 

DAWN TAYLOR

So one thing I would recommend end on the talking piece is often it's about asking someone if they have the capacity for us in the moment. Right. So if you are listening to this and you're like, but I can't afford therapy, but I can't afford those things, there is amazing grief groups where you can do grief therapy. There's miscarriage support groups. There's a lot of options out there. But the other thing is, when we need to talk about something, often that's hard for someone, or we know that it's like, hey, this could bring up emotion for someone, or, you know what, I really need to emotionally dump right now? It is nobody else's responsibility to listen. And I know that sounds super harsh, but it isn't. It isn't anybody else's responsibility. Our job is to find people that can handle that. Our job is to find our support system and find our support group. But I know I've had people even in my own life, I mean, as a trauma specialist doing what I do and doing the personal and business and trauma work that I do with people, I love it. But at the end of the day, I am sometimes, like, tapped out. 99% of the time, at the end of my day, I'm tapped out. Right? And so I have had to put really healthy boundaries in place to not take a phone call or to not have a conversation with someone or to not do that, because I actually don't have the capacity in that moment to be who I want to be for them. Right? And so I've often talked to clients about, say, to someone, or it's like, "Hey, I really need to talk through something. I really need to just verbal diarrhea, or I really need to just like, I need to word right now, right? Do you have any time for that?" And that actually gives the other person on the other end permission to go, "Yes, I do, 100%. And now I can give you my full focus." 

or "You know  what? I don't right now, but I do on this day or at this time or in this moment." Because it's so much more impactful when they can actually show up in the way that they desire to and in the way that they want to. 

SAMANTHA FOOTE

Yeah. I actually asked my husband, before I talked to him about verbally dumping on him, I say, "Can I talk to you? Is now a good time?" Because if it's not and I start talking, and then he's just on his phone or on the computer and just be like, "Yeah, I'm listening." "No, you're not. You're not listening." And that's fine. If he needs to do something, that's fine. But I think it's very important to ask people before you start just dumping on them. Because also, when people do that to me, sometimes I don't have the capacity, like you were saying, and I'm already in a like I'm not in a good mental state to take on their emotions, too. 

DAWN TAYLOR

Yeah, it's funny. Had people get mad at me for it. Oh, I've had people get pissed when I don't have that capacity for them. And I'm like, "No, I can't actually take your call right now. And it's not going to benefit you in any way, shape or form if I do take your call right now." Because, I can't as a friend, I can't as someone who you're asking advice from, I can't. I can't show up for you. And it comes down to so many expectations, right? And expectations that we put on people, expectations that we are constantly like, we're, always, like, needing our own expectations met and we sometimes can't grasp the fact that somebody else can't meet them. 

SAMANTHA FOOTE 

Yeah. 

DAWN TAYLOR

Right? So for somebody who has had a miscarriage and say they're like six months in and they're not handling it well yet, and they're grieving so hard, do you have any recommendations for them or any ways that they could get different support? Right. Is it the therapy that they need? I know I personally, I didn't have miscarriages, but I couldn't have kids, right, nd so one of the things that I did was I actually had, like, a mini funeral for my babies and it was just something that I did by myself, right? But I went and got some flowers and I wrote some letters and wrote out my dreams of what I had for them, wrote out, like, who I wanted them to be and I actually had, like, this little funeral for my babies that I was going to have and that I'd always dreamt of having, and there was something in that. There was something in naming those children, in having that funeral. But in grieving right in that moment, allowing myself to grieve, that's so hard. That was so, so healing for me and allowed me to have a piece of closure on it that I couldn't prior to. And I know that's what I did, and it worked very well for me. Is there something that you have done that you would recommend? 

SAMANTHA FOOTE

Counseling, number one. And then the second thing is see a doctor, because you might need medication to help get through it. There's all these emotions. Like your body changes so much, even with just a miscarriage. I don't want to say just a miscarriage. I just meant even if you don't have a full term baby, your body still changes. There's still hormones that are in play, and you might need to get your hormones checked. And there are if, If you don't want to do individual counseling or you can't afford individual counseling, there are some great miscarriage support groups that you can attend. And just, I don't know, I think having a funeral like you did is a great idea that brings such closure. Like, I did that in my own way and that really helped me to know that it was going to be okay. Everything. I am a very religious person, and so I firmly believe that I will see that baby again someday in heaven, you know. And so just leaning into that really helped., and just letting others help you, not just trying to do it all yourself  

DAWN TAYLOR

Well and asking for what you need. Right? But also sometimes saying, like, I don't know what I need. Can you just sit with me, right? As part of my process of grieving. Grieving a baby. One of the things that I did was my childhood bestie. We had planned to raise our babies together. And with her first, we met in a town that was halfway in between our houses. So we had both, I think she'd gone like 5 hours. I had driven about eight and we met in this town, and we went baby shopping together. We looked at car seats and we looked at high chairs, and we looked at strollers and clothes and all of those things. And she let me sit for hours and feel her kicking baby. And you do those sorts of things. That, for me, was so healing, right? To have someone who was so safe, that wasn't judging me, that wasn't like, "For real, this is ridiculous, Dawn, why are you doing this?" But I was having those moments where it was like, I got to feel like I was part of it and still living out part of that dream. 

SAMANTHA FOOTE

I had a friend who just sat and cried with me. And that was the most cathartic experience, I think, of the whole experience going through that. She just sat there and we cried together because she's had several miscarriages, and she's like and she didn't know. We made plans to hang out that night, and we were going to an event, and a song during the event triggered me, and I just started sobbing, and she was like, "What is wrong with you?" Because she didn't see it on Facebook, because she doesn't have Facebook. And I wasn't telling everyone. She was just like, "Why didn't you tell me?" No, she didn't say that. She said, "Thank you for telling me." And then we just sat there and cried for, like, an hour, and it was awesome. It's very helpful. 

DAWN TAYLOR

That's actually so beautiful. 3s Sometimes that's all we need, right? Yeah. Sometimes I'm like, "Can you just sit beside me? Can you just be in the same room? That's all I need. And if I want to talk about it, I will. If I want to bring it up, I will." See to know that you're safe, and yeah, I would challenge people to do that. Just show up, hold space for someone. 

SAMANTHA FOOTE

Yeah. Just be with them. That's all they need. Just knowing that you're thinking of them is what helps me. Another thing I just thought of this that I did. I felt so lazy because I wasn't doing everything that I normally do, and don't feel bad about that. I watched Castle. I watched like eight seasons of Castle in a time that probably should have been longer than the seasons that I watched.

DAWN TAYLOR

Back on track. How many weeks did it take you to go through eight seasons? 

SAMANTHA FOOTE

It was months But eight seasons of 45 minutes show is a really long show. Yeah, I love that show, and I felt so guilty for being lazy. I'm like, oh, I'm so lazy. But sometimes you just do what you can, and that's okay. Obviously, if it's been too long, then, like you said, get some help. But it's okay to take time and just do what you can. 

DAWN TAYLOR

It really is. I want to thank you so much. The vulnerability, talking about it, saying where you're at. Also admitting the fact that you're not quite there yet, right? Like, you're still in the ring. You're still rumbling through it. You're still dealing with the emotions around it and all of those things. The hardest part of grief is the fact that we left someone. The hardest part of grief is the loss of the idea, right? And I always say there's nothing more powerful than knowing that you love something hard enough that you're grieving it that hard. That says something. It's like, wow, I loved that person that much, that the grief is this hard. How lucky am I? How amazingly blessed am I that I got to have that person in my world, even if it was a baby in your womb for twelve weeks. I can't even imagine how much you love your kids that are on Earth. And that's really beautiful. And so I want to ask you a few silly questions. We always do. Just, like, some silly questions at the end. If you've listened to my podcast, you know this. And I want to ask you the same. Is that okay? 

SAMANTHA FOOTE

Yeah. 

DAWN TAYLOR

Amazing. What is your secret guilty pleasure, way to decompress?

SAMANTHA FOOTE

Oh, watching Castle 100%. I watched it so much. My daughter is three, and she's like, let's watch Castle. And she knew that it was on Hulu, and she knew what episode we were on. And I was like, okay, this is a problem. This has gone too far. I just really like watching shows like that or like, just others. It's not a silly show, but watching like. "No, you don't have to think about it." shows. that also. 

DAWN TAYLOR

Yeah, I'm literally going to add that to my list. I want to watch Castle now. I just have to figure out oh, it says that it's on Disney Plus in Canada. That's awesome. I might be watching that. That might be my next new show. Describe yourself in one sentence. 

SAMANTHA FOOTE

I thought about this, and I just have, like, one word. 

DAWN TAYLOR

Everyone always was like, one word isn't enough. I'm like, okay, say a sentence. No. What is? 

SAMANTHA FOOTE

I am passionate. I am dramatic and passionate and just yeah. 

DAWN TAYLOR

I love that. 

SAMANTHA FOOTE

I have big emotions. 

DAWN TAYLOR

I love it so much. And what do you spend a silly amount of money on?

SAMANTHA FOOTE

Just things that I don't need, like subscription box stuff. Really? Okay. 

DAWN TAYLOR

What are some of your favorite subscription boxes?

SAMANTHA FOOTE
Fab, fit, fun. I love it. And Shoe Dazzle and Fabletics and Adore Me. 

DAWN TAYLOR 

What is Adore Me? 

SAMANTHA FOOTE

It's lingerie. 

DAWN TAYLOR

Oh, okay, 

SAMANTHA FOOTE

I don't get all those things every month, but you can skip the month if you don't want it that month. But I have to skip them all every month and just be like, not this month, not this month, or I have Stitch Fix. Yeah, but I like that you can skip months because I'm not rich enough to be able to afford all that every month. 

DAWN TAYLOR

I was like, that is amazing to get that many treats in the mail. So this is my brain. I'm like, oh, now I want a subscription box. No, I don't need a subscription box, but I will check some of those out. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Samantha, for being so vulnerable, so open, so honest, for spending this time with us today. And I hope that as a listener, you heard something today that hit home, that either made you understand someone around you in a different way, helped you to feel seen or heard or shifted something in you a little. Join us again in two weeks for another amazing topic. And please tell your friends, the more people that feel misunderstood, the more people that feel understood, the better. Check out the show notes located at thetaylorway.ca for more information and for all the contact information for Samantha, if you do want to reach out at all, or for myself if you're needing any support at all, but also for links to anything we talked about today, subscribe now on Apple, Spotify or wherever you listen to your podcast. And if you love the show, please leave a rating and review. It would mean the world to me and Samantha. Thank you again.

SAMANTHA FOOTE

Thank you for having me. 

DAWN TAYLOR 

You are so welcome. See you guys in two weeks.

Views Expressed, Legal and Medical Disclaimer

This podcast (including any/all site pages, blog posts, blog comments, forums, videos, audio recordings, etc.) is not intended to replace the services of a physician, nor does it constitute a doctor-patient relationship. Information is provided for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional medical advice. You should not use the information on this podcast for diagnosing or treating a medical or health condition. If you have or suspect you have an urgent medical problem, promptly contact your professional healthcare provider. Any application of the recommendations in this podcast/website is at the listener/reader's discretion. The views and opinions expressed are those of guests and do not necessarily reflect the opinion or policy of Dawn Taylor, The Taylor Way and or its Associates. The before mentioned are not liable for any direct or indirect claim, loss or damage resulting from the use of listening/reading to this podcast or any website and/or any website (s) linked to/from it. Listeners/readers should consult their physicians concerning the recommendations in this podcast

Content Warning: Death, grief and Survivors guilt 

In this episode, we discuss some topics that listeners may find difficult such as death and survivor guilt.

Why you would want to listen to this episode…

In this episode, Dawn tackles the topic of grief alongside her close friend Dallas Sleeman. Dallas herself has suffered loss throughout her life, mainly her two best friends before both were in their 40s. She details her grieving process and how she allowed herself to feel the emotions she had to feel in order to ease up the process. Furthermore, they talk about the idea of legacy and how one wishes to be remembered. One of Dallas’ friends Amy had a dream she wanted to achieve that was brought to life even after her passing, showing how important a group of friends and a support system are when it comes to preserving one’s legacy.

Who is this episode for?

This episode is for those who have struggled with grief after losing a loved one, and for those who haven’t experienced it but are anxious about the inevitable. Dawn and Dallas in this episode show that grief is something universal and experienced by all and that there is no shame in pouring out your love towards the people in your life now, and honouring them once they’re no longer with us.

About Dawn Taylor

Dawn Taylor is the professional ass-kicker, hope giver, life strategist, trauma specialist, and all-around badass. Dawn's journey into helping others heal began when she took her personal recovery from the trauma she experienced in her life into her own hands. While at times unconventional, Dawn’s strategic methods have helped hundreds heal from traumas such as issues related to infidelity,  overcoming addiction,  working through PTSD from sexual, emotional, and physical abuse, as well as helping cult survivors thrive. Dawn’s work has empowered entrepreneurs, stay-at-home moms, and CEOs alike to be superheroes in their own lives. Having completed thousands of hours of training from many professional programs, including the Robbins Madanes Training Institute, Dawn’s blunt honesty will challenge your thinking, broaden your awareness, and help you achieve the outstanding results you are worthy of.

Connect with Dawn here at The Taylor Way: Consultation Call | Website | Facebook | Instagram | LinkedIn

Get to know Dawn on a deeper level through her book! Order Here

P.S. I Made It, is a powerful story that grabs you through its lack of pretension and honesty. Every page reveals another layer of curious wonder at both Dawn’s life and the power of hope that moves within each of us. Dawn’s hope is that you use this book as a resource to deal with your struggles. Share it with someone who needs it. We all want to feel like someone understands what it’s like to suffer through something and – come out the other side. She describes her life as “horrifically beautiful and beautifully horrific. 

Guest Bio

Dallas Sleeman is a Financial Life Coach and owner of Intuitive Financial Coaching. She’s passionate about creating space for you to untangle your money stories and connect with the what truly matters to you - living a life you love now, while building toward your future. Dallas’ drive for creating a sacred space to discuss money, and the fears that coincide with it, emerged while she was a mortgage broker helping clients overcome the emotional rollercoaster associated with obtaining financing. When not working in her business, she is supporting the charity founded in honour of her late best friend, Amy’s House.

Guest Social Links

Email - [email protected]

Website - https://intuitivefinancialcoaching.ca

Instagram - https://instagram.com/dallas.ifc.edmonton  

Facebook - https://facebook.com/dallas.sleeman.1  

LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/dallas-sleeman-edmonton/

Amy’s House - https://amyshouse.ca

Thanks for listening!

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Episode Transcript

Dawn Taylor

I am your host, Dawn Taylor, and today we are talking to the fabulous, fantastic, and brilliant Dallas Sleeman. Our topic today is survivor’s guilt. Really, right? Like, this silver lining and grief of survivor’s guilt and how to deal with when you are still alive and someone else isn't.

Before we get started, I want to tell you a little bit about our guest today so you can be excited as I am. Dallas is, I don’t even know how to describe Dallas. She is fearless, she’s a fighter, she’s scrappy, she’s so passionare about creating this space for you to untangle your life, your money, stories, all these things. She is an intuitive financial coach, that's right so she is an executive coach that works around, like, money and all your belief systems on that so if you're interested in planning, please go check out the show notes all of her contact stuff is there, but she is also the cofounder of a charity, um, hello? Amy's House? Like she has done all of the craziest cool things and yeah she is one of my favorite humans so i just wanna say, welcome to the show, Dallas. I'm so glad you’re here.

Dallas Sleeman

Thank you, thank you so much. It’s an absolute pleasure to be here.

Dawn Taylor

So let’s dive in, what is it you wish people were talking about?

Dallas Sleeman

So, over the last four years, it has been an incredibly interesting journey through grief and recovery and losing a best friend, somebody who’s actually more like a sister than a best friend. It was absolutely devastating and being self-employed at the time, I had to figure out a way to a) not go bankrupt because I didn’t feel like getting out of bed in the morning, but also I had to find a way to release, just find new meaning in life when she passed away. It was like if somebody like that can leave this Earth so early then why am I here? And why am I that got to stay when she got to at the time, she was a mother of 2 young children, Annie and Christian were 7 and 9 when she passed and she was like so little, so little and she was this brilliant community connector. 

She built community everywhere she'd go, she was this vibrant, vivacious, incredible person and I remember thinking at the time like I would trade places hundred percent, Iwould have traded places. I would have taken the cancer bullet so she could have stayed and continued her journey and raised her kids and done everything else like that, and so it’s about that guilt of why her and not me and how am I going to take the rest of my life something that I deem worthy of not being able to have her with me because we lost such a bright shining light when she had to leave us.

Dawn Taylor

So Dallas is talking about this amazing woman named Amy, Amy Elaine and she was, I knew her. She was this, just this vibrant little spitfire, petite redhead that sums her up, right? There, she’s a tiny petite spitfire of a redhead, right? But, she was a stunning human and I know we both deal with grief, we both dealt with loss and grieving and death and all of these things and I remember when I was doing my grief training to become a grief facilitator and one of things the guy said was like grief isn't personal and it doesn't have favorites, like it doesn't pick and choose, do you know what I mean? It just happens and it was a funny statement when he said this ‘cause people in the class got real angry. like really angry/

Because we need to think there's a timeline for grief and death and we need to think there's a reason and we need to believe those things and I don't know about you but sitting back and having to accept that and deal with that and process like Amy wasn't your first friend that you've lost either, right? We can dive more into that but it's interesting how so many people, when death happens and grief is going on right we drown, you're trying to cope you’re trying to hold it together, you’re trying to get through that and if you're willing to talk about that, but we'll dive into how you have grieved and actual hands-on tangible things that you did to help you thru the process, but also it is interesting how it’s so easily forgotten after, right? 

Their life, their legacy, what they've done all of those things and I have found and tell me if I'm wrong, but there’s also this piece of like when someone is dying or when they've died everyones like “Oh my gosh. I’m gonna change my life. im gonna do something different and I'm gonna shift my legacy and I'm gonna change all these things and then they don't or they do for like 6 months and then they go back to who they were and the person is so easily forgotten and there's this interesting feeling of like will i be that easily forgotten are people never gonna talk about me again and I don't know

Dallas Sleeman

One of the things that thst brings up for me that I find really interesting is Ithink theres more of a fear and another frirend of mine who recently lost her son, we were talking about it, and the idea that grief is contagious like people dont wanna talk about the sad stuff ‘cause they’re like “Oh, no. I might catch up or I don’t wanna make you cry. I don’t want to upset you. I don’t want to do all of these things so they simply don't address it they don't talk about that person anymore, and so it becomes this unsaid elephant in the room where they're like “I know you’re sad but I don’t know what to do about it, so I'm just gonna do nothing and pretend that everything’s okay.” And hope you just pull through it and it leads to this feeling of isolation, this feeling of not actually being able to talk about the feelings and having to wade through everything on your own and I can describe how it feels like. In the beginning, you're trying to walk through this thick sludge because it colors absolutely every part of your waking existence and sometimes your dreams, so I wish people in a way just talk about grief, period. Don't be afraid to mention the person that passed away. Don't be afraid to talk about the memories that made you laugh or the amazing person that they were, there's a very good chance that their friends and loved ones are going to break down and cry, but that doesn't mean that you've done something wrong.

Dawn

Okay so i love this because when my mom passed away, it felt like everyone just like took white out to her existence and it was so wild and I've had people over the years be like why do you keep talking about her and I'm like cause I don't wanna forget her but also like there's moments, right? Like, at Christmas, my mom’s been gone since 2008 and at Christmas, I was looking around at my nieces and nephews and, oh, my word. My mom would have died, like she would have laughed so hard at this moment or thought this was so amazing to see all of these kids here. And I said something and my nephew’s girlfriend actually started asking me questions about my mom and we were telling stories and laughing and talking, like, why is this such a thing like, why can we not do this? But also the fact that like, do you find this odd belief that tears are a negative?

Dallas

Yes.

Dawn Taylor

Like, people have this idea in their heads that's like, “No, crying is sadness and sadness is bad.” No, sometimes it’s like sad ‘cause you're missing them but also like sad because you're like "No, this is so beautiful and this is such a beautiful moment" and tears can come from beauty the same as they can come from pain.

Dallas Sleeman

Absolutely, and I think the other part of it too is the dichotomy that we'd put on emotions. Sadness and anger are bad therefore you should not express them.

Dawn Taylor

I love that you even did a robot voice with that like that is such an ingrained–

Dallas Sleeman

And it's an ingrained societal belief and if we don't learn how to express these emotions, they get trapped inside our bodies and then what? We end up becoming physically and mentally ill because of it and so it's actually the best thing to do. If I'm crying, it is a beautiful moment because that means that my body and spirit is actually moving through that emotion, as opposed to trying to push it down and that's what I did the first time I had a friend pass away. I'll talk about George very briefly. 

George was very similar to Amy, he was just this fantastic human being and I remember when I first met him I was coming out of a pretty terrible, I met him while I was in a terrible relationship but he was one of my major support people while I was in that relationship and after I left it, and he actually made me feel like I was seen for the first time in a long time. I remember this time, walking into a pub it was his birthday and he literally dropped everything that he was doing and he walked over and he was like "Wow, you made it, I'm so happy you're here!" and that was the first time that I felt like somebody had done that for me, and i was like "Oh my God, you actually think I’m special? Wow, thank you." and there was never any, uh, romantic feelings or anything like that. It was just this fantastic friendship and he's also one of the people that was part of the group of four, so it was george, myself, Amy and Robbie. 

And so, two of those people gone so soon, it was like a double whammy, but when George passed away, he was killed in an IED explosion in Afghanistan. He was a middle school teacher as well as in the Army reserves and he was doing a tour as a combat engineer and his purpose was to be helping to rebuild the Afghan nation, and he was so passionate about trying to bring stability and peace and community and all of these things back to a completely different culture. and he had this smile and this joking manner and it was exuded in everything and so to this day his students actually pose on his rest in peace, his memorial page on his Facebook, "Mr. Miacchi would be so proud" or "Mr. Miacchi, I thought of you today when..." and so, he was having these massive impacts on everyone around him and when he passed away, I internalized bad grief. like you couldn't touch it. you couldn’t say his name, you couldn't talk about anything because it was one of those things where I just couldn't, I couldn't look at it, couldn't move through it, I couldn't do anything and so it's like, I wrapped it up in paper mache and duct tape and barbed wire and buried it in my heart--

Dawn Taylor 

You dealt with grief like a lot of people too

Dallas Sleeman

hundred percent, hundred percent.

Dawn Taylor

So listeners, hear this, that is actually a weirdly normal response to grief whether it’s healthy or not, you're not alone so keep going.

Dallas Sleeman

Absolutely, absolutely. You're not alone and there was also that discomfort of people around me not wanting to talk about him not wanting to talk about the loss, not wanting to trigger me so to speak, and I think that actually made it more detrimental in the long term because I think the grief got stuck. I remember going to a reiki appointment and this was probably six or seven years after he passed away and the reiki lady, i guess, reiki master, that's the word. She came up to my heart, shocker, and she said "You are completely blocked here." and then she asked "You've lost somebody?" and I started talking about George and this massive burst of energy came off my chest, all of the lights flickered out in the room and it came back on and I was like "Woah, that's what i've been holding inside this whole time." 

And it wasn’t until that moment  where I was actually able to start processing the grief where I was able to start talking to George and telling him all of these things I wanted to do but during that time when I had bottled up the grief, it affected all of my relationships, every single one of them - romantic, platonic, familial, everything was colored with this like, you know, gray kind of window because i had this weird feeling that if I let people get too close, I would just get hurt again when I lost them and so, by keeping everybody at arm’s length and it was suffocating, it was absolutely suffocating and so when Amy passed away it was a wake up call because not only had I gone through this before but it was "What do I do now?" If this can happen, what kind of meaning do I have to have in my life to make it okay for me to live and be happy and experience joy when two of my best friends have passed away far before their time?

Dawn Taylor

Yeah. So I wanna go into this a little bit ‘cause one of the things you and I actually did together is, I hope it's okay to talk about it, is we did some pre-grieving on amy. Would you be willing to talk about that a little bit and what that looked like for you and how impactful that was for you in how you dealt with your grief different?

You were like, the motion. took the biggest deep breath and like, ground yourself for a second again, it's alright. We got ya.

Dallas Sleeman

Thank you. Um, this is the thing about grief where its moments you think you're going to be okay and then something hits that button and you're like "oh crap, there’s the intuitions" and I’ve learned to just let them come. That deep breath, allowed tears, all of these things but when it comes to the pre-grieving it was really about preparing myself for the inevitable. The majority of the time Amy was going through her cancer journey, I tried to remain as positive as possible and it wasn’t until the final few months where things really took a turn for the worse and the writing was on the wall. And so, in working with you it was literally one of those moments where you said you have a choice in how you move through this and that to me was like "Really, I have a choice?" 

Dawn Taylor

Yeah, maybe we didn't respond to that in a positive way. 

Dallas Sleeman

Well, and it's not even that I wasn’t responding to it in a positive way, it was this desbelief that I could take control of the situation to a certain extent and some of the work we did was making sure that nothing was lleft unsaid, writing the letters and making sure that she knew how important she was to me and I just, at the end of the day, I was thinking about it this morning getting ready to do the podcast and the last day that she was with us, I drove to the hospital in the early afternoon and I rememebr parking my car in the parking lot and I sat there and I scream cried for a good 15 20 minutes beofore pulling myself togeher and walking into the hospiral and being a strong as I could for her family who was there, who hadn’t moved through the process as much as I had and so I went from the grieving person to the caregiver in an instance of allowing them to talk about the fear of her leaving and the hole that it was going to leave and helping to just move through those mometns and I never would have been able to do that or be present in that capacity had I not worked to accept the fact that this was something that was absoultyely inevitable and it was the most beautiful thing. 

The last thing I said to Amy was “I love you” and at this point she was mostly non-verbal and she managed to squeak out an “I love you, too” and I walked out of the hospital knowing that absolutely nothing was left unsaid, she knew how much I loved her and even though when I got the text later that night that she had indeed passed away and it turned into this void, it wasn’t as painful it was more a "Okay, I can breathe. She is no longer in pain. This hurts, but it’s okay, everything is going to be okay." 

Dawn Taylor

And I think it’s, I often challenge people when they’re going through something like that, when you know something is going on you need to pre-greive, like, you need to process a lot of that stuff in advance and allow yourself to get some of that out of the way as funny as that might sound, to allow yourself to kinda go there and allow yourself to feel some of those feelings in advance and create a plan around it, but we’re so busy trying to negotiate with the universe to keep them alive forever. We’re not actually willing like "No, no, no. Something might actually go 100% according to plan." So, I remember you and I talking about that at one point and I said "You know what though? If you've done all this work and at the end she lives, what was the harm?"

Dallas Sleeman

Mm-hmm. Absolutely.

Dawn Taylor

Right? What was the harm in that? And so one thing I did wanna ask you, about not only about the legacy piece that you wanna now leave and all of that but how are you finding creating relationships and allowing yourself to get close to people and connect to people when some of the closest people to you and your life have passed so young?

Dallas Sleeman

I have more close relationships now than I've ever had in my life. and I’m gonna hop into a little bit of what we chatted about right before starting the recording and this idea that if I were to sit down at a table with the women who supported me in creating the change to be able to make a legacy, I would have fifteen women sitting at the table with me and I never would have had that before, and what it’s come down to because I’m allowing myself to openly grieve. It’s been 4 years since Amy passed away and i'm still grieving but it doesn't have that same sharpness to it anymore, it's more of a "Man, this would have been so awesome if you were here because I know you would be so elated to see whatever it is." 

Whether it be the charity that was started in her foundation, and I'm allowed to give myself permission. I have given myself permission to find joy in the fact that I had the privilege of knowing somebody like that. I had the privilege of having somebody show me what it means to be a true friend and I had the privilege of being able to go through my ugly duckling moments of growing up and becoming a woman with somebody who embraced me so fully as a person, and so when i lost that it and having gone through the pre-grieving process it was no longer "Well, if I’ve lost that, I’m never going to have it again." The new mindset became "I know what’s possible." I know what's possible in relationships and of course, it takes time to build trust and it takes time to reach that level where you are so fully open with somebody like you feel like they are a soul sister. Um, but I have that with so many people now, and am I gonna lose them overtime? Absolutely, I will, and I will never know how or when. I don't know if it's going to be, we simply grow apart because of life or you know as I get older, i am going to go through more deaths. I’m going to go through more grieving but I can now look at those, at those opportunities as celebration. I can celebrate what I have.

Dawn Taylor

It's so beautiful.

Dallas Sleeman

My chest, like my heart center, it's just like it feels so full and so at peace and so calm and I never knew that this was possible in grief. I never would have thought that this was possible in grief. I never would have thought this would be possible.

Dawn Taylor

I think so much of it is a choice. 

Dallas Sleeman

It is. 

Dawn Taylor

It is choosing. So, it’s interesting hearing you talk about this because I’m coming at it from the other side as a person who’s almost died so many times and had this like death sentence, right? And it’s a conversation I had last night actually with a friend was I have spent so many years not connecting to people to protect them from the pain of my death.

Dallas Sleeman

Mm-hmm 

Dawn Taylor 

And having to be with me, as I dealt with my health issues and different things and this belief that I was always too much right? And as you’re talking I’m like it's one of my shifts that I’ve been making over this last year is actually allowing myself to connect to people and allowing people in to a different level, and anyone who’s been in my life a long time knows I always just hold people at a certain level that's like as close as you get and everyone in my world is like "I wish that you would just like let people a little bit closer." and I had one guy say one time "No, it just takes a long time, like you just have to be in Dawn's life for a really long time to ever get super close to her."

Dallas Sleeman

Mm-hmm.

Dawn Taylor

But I don’t think that people realize that so much of that came from me wanting to protect them, right? And not knowing anything different because that was developed at 18 years old.

Dallas Sleeman

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Dawn Taylor 

Like, that was literally something that at 18 years old, I was like fully, I just watched how hard dealing with me almost dying was and thinking they'd lost me, I can’t imagine them actually having to deal with losing me so you know what, I'm gonna not connect to them as deep so that that doesn't hurt so bad.

Dallas Sleeman

It's like if you have a smaller footprint when you leave, then it takes less time for it to be covered over.

Dawn Taylor

Hundred percent.

Dallas Sleeman

At the end of the day, it’s more of a gift to the people around you to be able to see you fully so that you are able to have a lasting legacy.

Dawn Taylor

Right? And that's what's so funny to me is over this last like year and a half of dealing with the health stuff for two years now, whatever it’s been, some of my closest friends became with my guy friends, and I was talking to one this morning and we were actually talking about it and he goes 'cause it's a big thought in my mind right now and knowing we were going into this podcast today and he said "Why is that, why are you so much closer?" and I said "Because there’s a natural disconnect because you’re a man" and he just sort of laughed and I said "You can be my best friend, you can be an everything to me, you can be so important to me that I know you can separate your emotion and your logic i know that it'll be easier for you to grieve me than it will be for some of my female friends.”  And he's like "Oh, stop it"and he’s bugging me about it, but it is, it’s been a shift this last year of like “Hey, wait I’ve always been super open and super vulnerable with people but i never allow them to go in,right? I always keep everyone just a little bit at arms’ length but it’s a thing of like I wanna protect you, not me 

Dallas Sleeman

Absolutely.

Dawn Taylor

And now trying to shift that in relationships and i'm like "That's a lot of work." 

Dallas Sleeman

It is a lot of work, and what's coming to mind for me is as you're talking about this i used to have a similar mindset where it was if I don’t miss you everyday then you're not gonna miss me when I leave, if I can just stop talking to you and it’s not gonna affect my everyday life then that's okay because I don't want people to be that close to me anyway and now I've reached different days where like I don't talk to all of my close friends everyday. Sometimes I go weeks in between having a chance to really talk to them and yet I know we have this connection that goes far deeper than I've ever allowed it to go before and it is a lot of work and I think when it comes down to it the people that we become when we allow ourselves to be that open is so much more vibrant, we're not just showing the fancy little facade on the outside, the mask that we wear for everybody.

Dawn Taylor

Hundred percent. Well, but it’s not like, never even felt like it was a mask, and that's what's so interesting. It's been more of a, I don’t even know how to describe it because i'm authentic to who i am and I’m showing up just as me and no, no no, and we can get deep and have amazing conversations and be really connected, but it’s like, but I don’t ever want you to need me. I don’t ever want you to need me in that way, like, you can need me in regards to like as a friend or a coach or to support you in certain ways or anything like that. But yeah, it’s, like, don't incorporate me into your daily activities.

Dallas Sleeman

Yeah.

Dawn Taylor 

Right? So it’s like a different depth. I know, my brain's entertaining. People laugh at me cause they're just like "no you're a great friend, you're just this hilariously disconnected busy person, like you love us, and you love us so hard but not in a normal, like, contact way." Maybe that makes more sense

Dallas Sleeman

Yeah. Absolutely, and it’s interesting because I would wonder how many people have that thought of "I don’t wanna be needed." 

Dawn Taylor 

Right?

Dallas Sleeman

And how often do we allow that idea of "I don’t wanna be needed" to color our relationships and in a sense when you have gone through grief, it makes sense that you would put yourself in that position because you're not only protecting yourself, you're protecting others But what about the people who haven't been through grief where there's still this notion of "I don't want anybody to need me." 

Dawn Taylor 

Oh, hundred percent.

Dallas Sleeman

And how do we shift that? How do we shift it into connection? How do we shift that into community and coming back to the center? 

Dawn Taylor 

I think a piece of it too is finding safe people so, like, one thing i've talked about openly and even wrote about in my book is like I was born with the inability to bond and that came from literally conception, and not being wanted and all of these things, and this is actually a scientific thing, and so every time I find a client that's dealing with that or a friend that's dealing with that or whatever, there's a different connection almost between them immediately because you're like "Oh you get it, you get that this is like a choice thing when it comes to love and it's a choice thing when it comes to that connection." 

And I do connect, it takes a very long time to go from my head to my heart but I do totally connect and I’m sure you’d even agree with this, like, when I choose you, I choose you in my mind, know what i mean?  I'm like "I’ve chosen you, you're my friend, you get put in the box, I love you, I'm here for you, I will fight to the death for you, like, what do you need?" Right? It might take a bit to get in the box but, man, when I’ve chosen you. You’re in.

Dallas Sleeman

Yeah. Once you’re in that box, you’re not leaving.

Dawn Taylor

These podcast episodes make me sound like a crazy person and I get that, but it’s also, like, because we all think about these things so different and believe so different and we struggle so different, it's interesting to even be looking like that, like people are terrified to be needed, right? But then we're also so scared of rejection and we’re also so scared of not being loved, and we get caught in these vicious cycles in our head around all of that and I think I don’t know. I think it's also interesting and here's an interesting piece of grief I wanna bring up is, did you find going through grief ‘cause this is something I found really interesting, is that everybody puts the person who died on a pedestal?

Dallas Sleeman

Hundred percent, like absolutely.

Dawn Taylor 

They put ‘em up on a pedestal and their shit didn’t stink. Like, they were perfect, and I remember when I was dealing with some grief in my life, and i was like raging angry at the person and some of them were like "How can you mad at them when they’re gone?" and I was like "No, you can love someone and hate them at the same time." And that was an interesting piece for me because I had to go learn to accept that in grieving whether it was like, I’ve lost all my grandparents, I’ve lost my mom, I mean my dad's walked away and I’ve had to grieve like he was, I had like to pre-grieve because he hasn’t physically left this Earth but he’s walked out of our lives and it was interesting how you could love someone and hate them at the same time. But, in order to fully grieve someone you have to be able to grieve all the parts of that. 

Dallas Sleeman

Absolutely, and that’s absolutely it. I’ve had conversations about this with people who have also known Amy and there are moments where the positive attributes, I fully believe if it wasn’t for the fact that we choose to remember the positive attributes more than anything else, they're the happy ones, but also the legacy of Amy's House would not be what it is if people were like "Yeah, but she was also kind of a bitch sometimes…” so you know what I mean? And so there are these–

Dawn Taylor

That is awesome. 

Dallas Sleeman

Having that pedestal is advantageous especially when you are building something that is giving back to the community and making such a big difference to so many people, and will continue to make a difference to so many people. But, at the same time i've had moments walking in the river valley where it's so funny because I know there are moments, I know the inner workings. Like, she confided in me all of these things and like, she wasn't perfect and yet we've all just decided to forget everything about that and I think that gives me a little bit of hope in that I’m like "Okay, if I just do a really good job of making people seen and heard and loved and when I pass away they’re going to forget the times when I was absolutely a raging bitch about something."

Dawn Taylor

it gives me hope, Iwill also be remembered as perfect.

Dallas Sleeman

Hundred percent! I’m gonna build a legacy, I'm gonna hope people are gonna remember me as being a really good person.

Dawn Taylor 

Oh, totally! And you know what, I think I wanna talk about legacy for a second. So, this is a hundred percent no sales podcast. That’s something that I’ve said from day one. I’ve pulled episodes because of it/ I’ve said no to people because of it, but the one thing I do wanna talk about when it comes to legacy is what the definition is for both of us. how you're actually fulfilling that, like the different parts and pieces of that because its so many people think that is like "Oh, my legacy is the money i'm leaving," or "My legacy is the business I've built." or "My legacy is right, fill in the blanks." What did it mean for you? Like, what does legacy actually mean? ‘Cause this word keeps on coming up in our conversation today. 

Dallas Sleeman

So, for me, it goes so far beyond anything that is going to be physically left behind. My legacy, the way I see it is going to be in how I interact with people around me, how I work to empower the people around me, how I work to have people seen and I guess in a sense the lucky thing or maybe, not the lucky thing, luck is a bad word to use in this situation. But, grateful for, to be grateful for, that's it. It's the fact that I've had to go through two major losses. I’ve had the chance to realize that it wasn't what they physically left behind. It was the emotional pattern that they left behind.

Dawn Taylor

Ooh. I like that, emotional patterns.

Dallas Sleeman

Hundred percent. It's like they didn’t work to uplift the people around them. If they didn’t work to be a positive force for change, there would not be a scholarship put up in George's name. There would not be monuments put up in his remembrance, there would not be ongoing posts to his memorial page by his students and his friends and his loved ones, we would not have an Amy's House.

Dawn Taylor

Let's pause on that, what is Amy's House? ‘Cause it's come up a few times. It’s like a charity and a foundation. This is why I mentioned the thing of not being a sales thing, this is not a sales thing but anyone who knows me knows I’m a charity junkie so I love supporting charities. So, talk to us about Amy's House really quick and we’re gonna put all the information on it in the show notes, but fill us in on what a legacy this is.

Dallas Sleeman

So, Amy's House is Amy's last wish and when she was going through her cancer treatments, she would be in the chemo room for hours on end and she started talking to other patients who were there with her, and she discovered that several of them would travel hours each way everyday. Five days a week to come into the city for their chemo treatments because they could not afford accommodations. They didn’t have coverage or health insurance or whatever they needed to make it financially feasible to stay in the city, and even though there are other cancer houses around, the need for it is so great that there is consistently a waiting list at every single one of them.

Dawn Taylor

Wow. That is crazy.

Dallas Sleeman

It is insane, and so Amy being Amy was like "I’m gonna change this, I wanna make this better. When I get better, I want to make this better." And she took her cancer diagnosis as something of a challenge in a sense where instead of it being "Why me?" It was "How can I use this to create awareness? How can I use this to create change, how can I use this to hopefully prevent somebody else from having to go through the same thing and or support them while they're going through it?" And so, she said to her husband Phil "I want to create a cancer house. I want to create somewhere that people can come to the city and stay for free and be able to go through their cancer treatments without having to drive an hour and a half or two hours when you're already feeling like absolute crap."

Dawn Taylor

Right?

Dallas Sleeman

And so, 6 months after she passed away, and I swear to God, she muts have had a hand in it somehow because I didn’t know how we managed to pull this off in six months, but almost six months to the day after she passed away, we opened Amy's House. and Amy's House has hosted not just cancer patients, but really any patient that had a need to come into town for an extended period of time for medical treatments and we've done it 100% on community support. 

Dawn Taylor

that's amazing. It’s so incredible.

Dallas Sleeman

I can’t believe the number of people that continually step forward and they'll say "I never met Amy but I read her story and it inspired me and I really wanna be a part of this." And that to me is her essence of inspiration and community and creating community, and so the fact that we are physically helping people but also providing them this psychological comfort of having a home away from home. That's amazing. And so as we seek charity status, we are in the process of that right now. 

Dawn Taylor

oh amazing 

Dallas Sleeman

We have run as a non-profit for the last 3 years. we survived COVID. We opened four months before COVID, and the community banded around this and said "We’ee gonna keep this happening" and it's been an absolute privilege to be a part of this, and so, yeah Amy's House is the house that Phil and Amy brought their babies home to, it was their first home and it's now a home away from home for people going through cancer treatments.

Dawn Taylor

So, like, how cool though that not only did, like obviously, like her husband decided to do this based on her wishes and all of those things but you guys now get to be a part of that legacy, right? Part of that legacy continuing that and continuing the dream that she had, like, tangibly hands-on helping people. And when it comes to grief, when it comes to survivor's guilt when it comes to, that's just natural, right? It's a very normal feeling to be "Why her and not me?" Whether it's a health issue or a death or a loss, it doesn't matter. 

That is so human, so normal to feel that way and I know for myself there's gonna be a peace of it, "How can I carry on a legacy?" And for somebody listening to this and thinking, like, "Huh, what is my legacy gonna be?" Right? I think often people go to a place of, like, "Oh, well I have kids, my kids are my legacy." Like, raising them in a specific way but like for Dallas and I, we ain't got no babies, so my legacy is not gonna be my children. 

So "What is it that I wanna do?" And so, for anyone out there with kids or not, without kids, one of the things that I know my husband and I did for our legacy was "What do we wanna instill in our nieces and nephews?" What are things we wanna teach them, what are ways we wanna help them?" So, everything from the crazy trips we take them on to doing charity work with them to conversations we have, the drive, the push, the determination, the support, you know all of that is a piece of like "How do we instill something in them?" To shift, right?

And so for me, it's a ripple effect. Dr. Henry Cloud, I was at a conference years ago, he's the author of the Boundaries books, highly recommend. And he was talking about often people, it's like a boat, and people are so busy looking forward to where we're going and i'm like butchering this horribly but, like, you're so busy looking forward to see where you're going in life and what's going on but you’re never looking behind you at the weight you're leaving, right? And what is the weight you're leaving behind you and the ripple effect at that? And that's this vision that I always have in my head is "What is my weight that I’m leaving?" So whether it's this podcast right? The messages I've gotten from people going "Thank you for that episode, it allowed me to finally, like, push through something in my life where I felt seen and understood." or "Holy cow, I need to apologize to some people in my family as to how I've behaved." You know? Whatever it is, whatever it is. Like, this is a piece of my legacy, to have these hard conversations. My work, your work, how we work with people, how we talk to people, right? I’ve always said that when I die, I want people laughing at my funeral and to be like "She was crazy." Like, "She was hilarious." or "She was nuts." or "She was funny." or you know, "She helped me through a really hard time in my life." or you know whatever, whatever it was but I want that to be the thing, like, I refuse to have someone be like "She was this crotchety old lady that was miserable and she was selfish" Like no, no, no. And that for me was one of the ways that I figured out what I wanted for my legacy, was when I’m at my funeral, if I could actually lay in the coffin and hear what people are saying, what would I want them to say? 

Dallas Sleeman

Absolutely and for me, I look at that very much the same way. It's something I love, the fact that you mentioned the wake behind the boat, that was one of the things, when I was in school to get my coaching certification, that they really drilled into us, "Mind your wake, mind your wake, mind your wake.” Because, you have this effect on this one person, you have to be aware of how it's going to ripple out around them because we're all parts of interconnected systems, systems of people, systems of relationships. If I work with somebody on a personal basis, it’s gonna affect them professionally too. 

Dawn Taylor 

always, always. 

Dallas Sleeman

In every aspect of their life. So, when I look at that and again with my legacy, similar to you, I don’t want people to be like the fact that I’m gone, I want them to be asking themselves “How can i do something similar? How can I leave a positive pattern of emotional well-being and societal well-being and deeper connections? How can I create community? How can I support those around me? Because at the end of the day, and this is one of those things that I truly truly believe, that any given society is only as strong as it is when it is working with its most - oh gosh, the word's escaping me right now, but the individuals that have the least–

Dawn Taylor

The most vulnerable sector. 

Dallas Sleeman

The most vulnerable sector, how are we treating people in our most vulnerable sector? And if we're working towards creating a community and society that can actually support those people without it being stigmatized then we're doing something wrong. 

Dawn Taylor

Can I just say that I see you smiling? Because i love, you know how much I love you, and I love your heart and your passion and your love of people and all of these things and you're such an adult compared to me, and here's why I say that and this is like the most ridiculous way to finish off this conversation, but we're talking about what people would say at a funeral and you have, like, this amazing vision of like the conversations people are gonna have and all those things and I’m like, I want people laughing at how i went out. 

I seriously want people showing up and being like "For real, that's actually how she finally died?" It's like live life to the fullest and I think the only reason why, I mean I wish you guys could see this, I'm sitting here, like, smiling and Dallas is having this beautiful intense moment and I’m thinking to myself, I’m actually a 12 year old deep down.

Dallas Sleeman

That's okay. that's okay. Joy is a legacy too, Laughter is a legacy too. 

Dawn Taylor 

So, yeah, it's not at all it should have been. Maybe that is so. I think it's something people need to actually think about in life, and at the same time some people don't care. Some people actually don't care, they’re just living life and they're enjoying it and all the power to you, no shame, no judgment, I love it, I absolutely love it, but for a lot of people, I think this concept of legacy is so intimidating. This idea of grieving is so intimidating, they're like these weird and scary topics and conversations that are actually beautiful.

Dallas Sleeman

They are, they are. Theyre difficult, but, they’re beautiful.

Dawn Taylor

And, I think part of it is like finding safe people, it's like even in finding friends and finding all of those things, I have often said about being my friend is like “No, no, no, I'm the one who you want there in the depths of your hell.” I’m the one you want there when you need someone to be like “No, no, no, I’m gonna hug you and squeeze you and help you put all your pieces back together and i'm gonna grieve with you and youre gonna do what you need to do.” I’m good with that. If you need it you ask, Iwill never push myself on you in that way but I am there if you need me 

Dallas Sleeman

Hundred percent. 

Dawn Taylor 

Right? And I think because of that, I can be a safe person for someone when they're going through things but, like, I have friends, and not because they're not amazing humans or they're not phenomenal friends or anything like that but it's like “No, no, no. You actually don't have the skill set or you don't have the capacity or you don't, you aren't safe in this moment, for who I need in this moment.” And I think that's a piece of it too, is like finding those people, finding the people you can phone and you can cry to, finding the people that you can phone and be like "I need you to figure how to get me the hell out of this headspace right now ‘cause I have to go into a meeting and i'm sitting in my car bawling." And it’s like "Alright, this is what you’re gonna do" Right? And, like, knowing those people in your life, so as you create your group, as you create your tribe, as you create your support system, as you create these things, knowing you need a little bit of everything. 

Dallas Sleeman

Absolutely. 

Dawn Taylor

Right, and that’s what’s so beautiful about it.

Dallas Sleeman

You need that friend who would go to the depths of hell with you also need the friend that is somebody who you know is just going to simply going to be the class clown, the jester, the joker, that is going to bring this lightness and levity, just because they don't have the skills to go to the depths with you doesn’t mean theyre not valuable. In fact, everybody is valuable. We all carry value.

Dawn Taylor

Hundred percent, right? it's just like the area, and yeah, I like to think that I’m the go to the depths of hell with you and make you giggle at the same time.

Dallas Sleeman

Hundred percent.

Dawn Taylor 

I can be your class clown and your trauma friend at the same time.

Dallas Sleeman

One thing I did wanna touch on really quickly and I'd, I’m – 

Dawn Taylor

Absolutely, and then we're gonna get into our silly questions.

Dallas Sleeman

Yeah, I don’t mean to throw this in a –

Dawn Taylor

No, no.

Dallas Sleeman

But another thing on grief, and I was having this conversation with a friend of mine very recently and I talked about one of the things that most upset me was when I was going through the grieving process was when somebody would try and relate to me and they'd be like "Oh, I don’t understand why it’s so bad, like, I've lost my grandparents and I mean, it was sad, but you know, I got over it." And I think the dffeerence between losing somebody who has lived a long and full life and somebody who has gone way too soon in George’s case at 28 and Amy’s case at 38. is you now have to grieve everything you don't get to experience with them.

Dawn Taylor 

The lost memories.

Dallas Sleeman

Exactly. They will never be at my wedding if Ii have a wedding. They will never see my kids if I happen to have kids. They don’t get to see and celebrate the growth and changes that I make throughout my life and i don’t get to celebrate them and so I feel grief can have different feelings and complexities and levels which you need to go to and having that understanding and being able to just witness somebody in the depths of their grief without questioning why it's so deep or what is happening and just saying “I will be here, I can be empathetic, I can sit with you in the dark and not feel the need to turn on the light” as Brene Brown would say. that is powerful. That is so powerful. 

Dawn Taylor

It is. So show up to your friends, people. Show up for them. Alright, so we’re gonna lighten the whole mood of this whole thing. Silly question time! Okay, so you guys know that I like to do these silly little questions at the end that are just, like, super fun and just silly, but one big question - what is your secret guilty pleasure way to decompress? I’ve had some good answers and explanations, I'll just say but what is, like, one of your silly things? Is it like 90 Day Fiance? Is it--?

Dallas Sleeman

Oh, no. I would legitimately put on ‘90s pop music and I will do the most ridiculous lip syncing and dance moves, and the idea is just to get so silly that i have to let go of anything that's weighing me down, so it's like –

Dawn Taylor

I love that so much.

Dallas Sleeman

Uh-uh, massive, like, facial expressions and like doing the pop moves.

Dawn Taylor

Okay, so, here's what I’m gonna request for our listeners, not a video, what I’m asking, can you email me even a list of your top 5 or top 10 or something songs that make the best ‘90s lip sync music?

Dallas Sleeman

Hundred percent. Savage Garden is on that list.

Dawn Taylor

check the show notes! so we can feature Dallas rocking out to decompress. If you have to describe yourself in one sentence, what would it be? Serious or funny, doesn’t matter.

Dallas Sleeman

oh my gosh that's such a hard one. um one word

Dawn Taylor

No, one sentence. We are way too complex these days for one word. I hate when people are, like, "Describe yourself in one word.” and I'm like "Complicated."

Dallas Sleeman

I’m just gonna say "Super complex.", "Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious". If i had to describe myself in one sentence, I would say that I am somebody who brings light to every room that I walk into and yet I can have one of the deepest darkest, inappropriate senses of humor ever to the point where people around me look at me go "Are you okay?"

Dawn Taylor

That is awesome. You know I'm the same so I’m like this, and one last one which is always a fun recommendation for people and I've had, actually, people buy these crazy things off of this. What is one thing you spend a silly amount of money on in my life?

Dallas Sleeman

One thing I spend a silly amount of money on in my life. you know, being I am a financial coach, I feel like I’ve narrowed down pretty much all of the silly spending down, I still have a very joyful life but the one expense I do not skip on is skin care because I am going to be in this skin for the rest of my life and I want to have a really full, exciting, adventurous life but I don’t want it to show on my face. 

Dawn Taylor

Hanging on to my youth!

Dallas Sleeman

Hundred percent.

Dawn Taylor

Do you have a skin care you recommend?

Dallas Sleeman

I use Rodan + Fields. 

Dawn Taylor 

Oh, okay, cool.

Dallas Sleeman

I really love it. I’ve tried so many other ones and, uh, I love the fact that I’m almost 40 and I'm fighting wrinkles and acne at the same time like "Thank you, universe." Giving you the middle finger. 

Dawn Taylor 

Oh, I woke up this morning with this massive zit under my eye and I was like "How is that even a thing? I'm almost 43! Come on!"

Dallas Sleeman

And so, I have found a skin care line that helps control the wrinkles and the acne and man, do I love it, so yeah.

Dawn Taylor

I love it. So, Dallas, thank you so, so, so much for being here, and for listeners, I hope that you heard something today that hit home, that shifted something in you, proved you're not alone, that you learned something, or you just laughed at how ridiculous we are. 

Dallas Sleeman

Love it. Thank you so much, Dawn, for having me.

Dawn Taylor 

Aw, you’re welcome. Join us again in two weeks for another super amazing topic and please tell your friends. The more people that feel understood, the better. Check out the show notes located at thetaylorway.ca for more information and the contact information for Dallas. subscribe now on Apple, Spotify and wherever you listen to your podcast, and if you love the show, it would mean the world to me if you'd leave a rating or review. See you guys soon!

Views Expressed, Legal and Medical Disclaimer

This podcast (including any/all site pages, blog posts, blog comments, forums, videos, audio recordings, etc.) is not intended to replace the services of a physician, nor does it constitute a doctor-patient relationship. Information is provided for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional medical advice. You should not use the information on this podcast for diagnosing or treating a medical or health condition. If you have or suspect you have an urgent medical problem, promptly contact your professional healthcare provider. Any application of the recommendations in this podcast/website is at the listener/reader's discretion. The views and opinions expressed are those of guests and do not necessarily reflect the opinion or policy of Dawn Taylor, The Taylor Way and or its Associates. The before mentioned are not liable for any direct or indirect claim, loss or damage resulting from the use of listening/reading to this podcast or any website and/or any website (s) linked to/from it. Listeners/readers should consult their physicians concerning the recommendations in this podcast.

Content Warning: Racism

In this episode, we discuss topics that listeners may find difficult, such as racism.

Canada is one of the most diverse places in the world, with around 200 or so cultures being represented and people living here from all walks of life. The old saying never judge a book by its cover couldn’t be more true. Canadians are diverse despite what people believe a  “typical” Canadian looks like. This week, Dawn talks with Kiara Brown, a Canadian woman of colour born and raised in Edmonton, Alberta, though many people believe she was born abroad.

Episode Summary

Dawn Taylor welcomes her close friend Kiara Brown to the show. Though Kiara is of Jamaican ancestry, she was born and has lived her whole life in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada. Kiara talks about her struggles as a woman of colour living in a neighbourhood that was predominantly Caucasian. She is constantly asked where she was from by fellow Canadians, and she experiences disbelief when she shares she is a Canadian. Growing up, Kiara was aware of how people of colour were stereotyped, and she shared stories of how this affected her teenage years while navigating through friendships and romantic relationships. 

The discussion also tackles the concept of culture as it relates to ethnicity, and how being born with a certain ethnicity doesn’t necessarily mean you were raised in that culture. With Kiara having Jamaican ancestry and Dawn having German ancestry, the two share a common ground of having lived Canadian lives despite being non-Canadian genetically. At the end of the day, we’re all human beings and should treat each other with respect. Dawn believes - no judgment, just curiosity. 

About Dawn Taylor

Dawn Taylor is the professional ass-kicker, hope giver, life strategist, trauma specialist, and all-around badass. Dawn's journey into helping others heal began when she took her personal recovery from the trauma she experienced in her life into her own hands. While at times unconventional, Dawn’s strategic methods have helped hundreds heal from traumas such as issues related to infidelity,  overcoming addiction,  working through PTSD from sexual, emotional, and physical abuse, as well as helping cult survivors thrive. Dawn’s work has empowered entrepreneurs, stay-at-home moms, and CEOs alike to be superheroes in their own lives. Having completed thousands of hours of training from many professional programs, including the Robbins Madanes Training Institute, Dawn’s blunt honesty will challenge your thinking, broaden your awareness, and help you achieve the outstanding results you are worthy of.

Connect with Dawn here at The Taylor Way: Consultation Call | Website | Facebook | Instagram | LinkedIn

Get to know Dawn on a deeper level through her book! Order Here

P.S. I Made It, is a powerful story that grabs you through its lack of pretension and honesty. Every page reveals another layer of curious wonder at both Dawn’s life and the power of hope that moves within each of us. Dawn hopes that you use this book as a resource to deal with your struggles. Share it with someone who needs it. We all want to feel like someone understands what it’s like to suffer through something and – come out the other side. She describes her life as “horrifically beautiful and beautifully horrific. 

Guest Bio

Kiara is a 23-year-old Canadian woman of colour, born and raised here. Like most people of colour, she has experienced racism and would like to share her experiences.

Guest Social Links
https://www.facebook.com/kiara.brown.925

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Episode Transcript

DAWN TAYLOR

I'm your host, Dawn Taylor, and today we are talking to the amazing, sorry, I, like, freaking love this girl - Kiara Brown. So today's topic, if you read the title, is “My Family has lived here longer than yours has”. So yeah, we're doing it. We're digging into race. Before we get started, I wanna just tell you a little bit about our guests so you can be as excited as I am. 

Kiara is a lover of kids, a lover of people. She's a 23-year-old black Canadian woman, born and raised here in Edmonton, in Canada, not in another country. She has experienced racism like most people of colour, and she wants to just share some insight on what it's like and how it's affected her in life, but also to give us some advice on, like, as a privileged white female, what is appropriate and not appropriate to say? We're gonna dive into all of the good stuff, so I can't wait to get started. Welcome to the show, Kiara. 

KIARA BROWN

Thanks so much for having me. I'm so excited. 

DAWN TAYLOR

Me too. I know when I was talking to my staff about this episode, they're like, “Oh, so you're going for all of the hard topics that are gonna get you cancelled?” And I started laughing and I said, “No.” That's why we're having this conversation, is - cancel culture is such a huge thing right now. And like I remember that when you and I had a conversation one day and I was asking questions ‘cause I said, you know, where someone who's like super curious like I literally have this massive sign in my office wall that says like, “No judgment, just curiosity.”

And I live from this place of curiosity. So I often wanna hear about someone's culture, where they're from or how they live life. Like, I'm known for asking people like, what were the 10 meals you weighed all the time growing up. Like, this is just who I am. But I was like, how do I ask these questions appropriately to not offend someone?

And you made this statement at that point, you're like, what's hardest is a lot of people are like, “Oh, where are you from?” And you're like, “Really? Like my family's lived here longer than yours has.” Like, generationally born and raised over and over and over in this country, and yet you still don't get treated that way.

And that's when you and I decided to like, chat about this and dive into this. So let's start with like, you used to live over the back fence from me. 

KIARA BROWN

Yeah, I was like, like seven or eight I think. 

DAWN TAYLOR

Oh, tiny. 

KIARA BROWN

Really little. I don't know how many years ago that was, yeah, quite a few, more than five. Um, I remember it so vividly. I remember, like we were playing in the backyard and, like, I’d seen somebody staring at us through the window and I was like, “Who is that?” And it was a little girl, which was your niece. 

DAWN TAYLOR

It was like you made it sound like I was staring at you at a window. No, my niece 

KIARA BROWN

Then, “Let's go play.” And I was like “Oh, like sure.” Like, let's meet up and then. We started talking about what my parents did for work, and then she started talking about what you do for work. And I was like, oh, it's kind of similar. “Let's introduce our parents.” And then we, we kind of just like, were in each other's lives from that point on. 

DAWN TAYLOR

Totally. 

KIARA BROWN

And we used to bake and like, make food. It was super fun. Yeah. 

DAWN TAYLOR

It's been a couple of years. So even as that little girl, I remember, like, you and all your sisters coming over and you were these five beautiful little Jamaican-like dolls. Like you were just the sweetest kids ever. And I loved having you over to hang out with our nieces and nephews and it was so much fun. But when did this whole concept and idea of race and colour and being like looking different or being different or whatever it is, like when did that really show up in your life and how?

KIARA BROWN

Um, like from elementary school, I feel like for me specifically, like luckily I didn't experience, like, hard racism like some people do, like, you know, getting, like, bullied in like the extreme stuff. But I, like, my sisters and I were definitely raised to not really like, be judgmental towards people who look different than us, and like our family is full of, like, different colours anyways, so like we were used to seeing that like within our family, but then when it came to like being in public like I would get, you know, annoying comments from people like, like from kids. Like the typical child comment that's like, “Oh, like your skin looks like shit.” And I'm like, okay. Like, “Thank you”.

DAWN

Oh, my word. 

KIARA

It's like, funny for kids to talk about the bathroom. Yeah. And so, you know, like I've gotten those comments like as a young child or you know, like people would like, make fun of, you know, how big my lips were and like, yeah.

You know, and like there was like a whole stigma, like, you know, once I got into, like, the dating age, like stigma, how like, you know, guys don't like to go for black girls. So like, you know, like I always felt kind of on the outside, like, there wasn't a lot of black people at the schools that I went to. It was really mostly just my sisters and I. So we were like known ‘cause we were like one of two black families that were in that entire school. So it's, it was kind of hard to forget who we were, but then, you know, there was always like the comments and the whispering and whatnot. So it was. Kind of hard to, like, fit in and, like, accept myself.

Like, you know, there were times where I'm like, like, you know, I kind of wish that I wasn't black because then maybe I would be more accepted by other people or, you know, maybe I would be liked more or you know, like comments about my hair. Like, just like, ugh, can I just be normal? You know, for everybody else, like, socially acceptable.

So, yeah, I would say from. like. a young age, that's where it started. It just kind of progressed as I got older and I didn't really know a lot about, you know, racism and stuff like that. Like it wasn't, it wasn't really talked about by my parents. Like you just kind of hoped that you didn't have to experience it, but it wasn't like a subject that they would be like, oh, you know, somebody says blah, blah, blah to you.

Like, you know, let me know. Like, it was just, it was just not talked about by my parents. It wasn't brought up that much like maybe it was hinted at, but I feel like we were so little that we didn't really understand what they were talking about. No shame towards my parents at all. I'm sure they -

DAWN TAYLOR

Oh, no, no, no, for sure 

KIARA BROWN

They would've tried to shed light on the subject, but you know, we were always around family, so it wasn't, we didn't have to worry when we were at home about experiencing that.

DAWN TAYLOR

Well, and it's interesting ‘cause we live in a, like, we live in the same city for anyone listening who's outside of Edmonton, we live in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada, and Edmonton is known for being so multicultural. Like every, there is a group or a, like every single country in the world is represented in Edmonton in a big way.

Like it is the most cultural city I've ever been to in my entire life, which is so, so, so cool. But I remember talking to your mom one time and saying like, like, I remember the day I saw my first black person, like as crazy as that is, and was the stupid little kid who probably made an inappropriate comment, but like getting on a bus when I was eight or nine and I was like “Whoa.” Coming from like this little northern town. And it so wasn't talked about, like it wasn't discussed. It wasn't talked about. And I feel dumb even saying that. Right? But like there just wasn't an emotional intelligence around it. The same as around like L G B T Q.

Like there just wasn't, And part of that is just generational and that is not a justification or an excuse for any of it. But there's a reason, there's a reason why so many of like different generations and people raised in certain areas actually just don't know. And so, no, I know I've had like, I have friends of every nationality and I have friends all over the world and, and they always laugh cuz they're like, you're so hilarious.

The questions you ask are so funny, but you're like, you know, it's innocent, but you're just so curious. And I'm like, but teach me how to talk like, Like, I want to know, I want to know how to have an amazing conversation and know about your, your beliefs and your culture and your life, and all of these things without offending, without hurting, without, you know, feeling judged for what I'm saying.

So can you give some insight into that in your world? It's like, okay, so let's start with like, how long has your family been in Canada and where culturally, genetic-wise, where are you from? Or whatever the proper way is to word that. 

KIARA BROWN

So me and my sisters and I and my dad, we were all born here in Alberta.

Um, and I, I'm pretty sure, I don't know where exactly my dad was born. I'm pretty sure he was born in Edmonton as well, but I could be wrong. My mom is from Jamaica and it's funny because like when people would ask me like, where are you from? And I'm like, I'm from here. They would like, they wouldn't believe me.

That's why I hate that question so much because they won't believe me. They're like, “No, where are you really from?” Really? What do you mean, here?” Like, one time I told somebody, like, I was like, I was born in Grey Nuns hospital at this time on this day. Like, I can find out the room for you if you really wanna know.

Like, yeah. I'm like, “What? What do you mean? Like where?” And so once I would say, like, “My mom's from Jamaica” they're like, “Oh, so you're Jamaican?” And I'm like, “Oh, no, I've never even been there.” So, like, there are some people like, they're like, “Oh, like you are Jamaican? Because your mom is.” and I'm like, well, technically no.

I don't know anything about Jamaica. I don't even know what the capital of Jamaica is. So I'm like, just because she's from there doesn't mean that that's what I am. But it's like, I understand the question like I get it, you know? If I see an Asian person, I don't assume that they're from here, but I don't ask because I'm like, I know what it's like to- 

DAWN TAYLOR

‘Cause, you know.

KIARA BROWN

Yeah. Like, I just kinda wait for it to come up in conversation. I, I don't mind people asking me questions. It's just when they don't believe me that it, like, starts to annoy me. 

DAWN TAYLOR

So what is, a more, so you made an interesting statement on, or commented on, Like, “That's not who I am.” 

KIARA BROWN
Yeah. 

DAWN TAYLOR

Right. Or where I'm from. Is there a better way to ask that question around? Like, what is your background? What is your culture? What's your heritage? You know, like the ancestry style, like Yeah. I'm German. I'm German, but I haven't ever been to Germany and I don't know German but, like, that's where all my grandparents were born.

KIARA BROWN

Yeah. 

DAWN TAYLOR

That kind of thing, right? So like I can say that that's my, I don't know what is, what is the proper wording for that? Like if somebody was to ask you, cuz like for me like there's, I mean this is like knowing your family. Right? There are things that you guys do. There are cultural things right down to how you guys are nicknamed. All of these things are because of your mom from Jamaica, right? Like there's just some, like even her, your mom's 40th birthday party. I remember her 40th birthday party and it was this whole thing and I was like, wow. And she's like, oh, it's a Jamaican thing. Right down to the food, the music, like all these things, the dress code, like everything.

So like there are things about your life, right? That I've always been so curious about that I'm like, oh, that's so interesting. But like, what is the appropriate way to ask without sounding like an idiot? do you know what I mean? 

KIARA BROWN

I get it. Yeah. It's like it's such a gray area ‘cause it's depending on what you've been through.

It could be not offensive, but it could be offensive. I feel like the best way to ask, like, ugh. It's, like, it depends on the person. Like, some people are very easily offended. I feel like that's-, 

DAWN TAYLOR

It's just life these days it seems. Right? 

KIARA BROWN

Like, if you're genuinely very curious, like I feel like you could start with that, but don't, like, make that the beginning of the conversation. Like, if you're trying to get to know the person I ask certain questions first, you know, like about their work life or whatever. And then kind of ease, ease your way into the conversation. But then might be like, you know, like, I'm just curious, like, were you born here? Or you know, were you born somewhere else?

And then, you know, whatever they answer, like, if they say they're from here like the follow-up was always “Where are your parents from?” for me. Um, yeah. I don't mind saying where they're from. Um, I feel, like, the way, the best way to word it is like, like, “Are your parents born here too?” Or like, “Were they from here?”

But, like, make it sound, like, interesting. Like that you're into the conversation and what they're actually talking about. Not just like, oh, like, you know, I was just being nosy kind of thing. And like for me, I don't really know much about Jamaican culture. We weren't really brought up in a Jamaican way.

So a lot of, like, oh my God, I have no idea. Like we didn't really eat traditional Jamaican foods. We weren't taught. You know, we weren't, it wasn't talked about, you know, how my mom grew up in Jamaica, like anything like that. So I'm like, I have no idea. I'm like, do I even have a culture at this point? Like I have a background, but like I'm just the Canadian gal with darker skin.

DAWN TAYLOR

Hey, that is so amazing though. Like, do I even have a culture at this point? Like, that almost brings up like its own topic of like, what is our culture? Like, what does that even mean? 

KIARA BROWN

Like I always, I always make a joke that Canada doesn't really have a culture ‘cause we're, it's just– 

DAWN TAYLOR

It’s a mix.

KIARA BROWN

I'm like, you know, like you hear about, like, Italian culture and like, oh, like, you know, in Italy this is what we do. I'm like, we don't do that here. At least I don't do that here. I've never met any Canadian that's like, “Oh, that's so Canadian.” Like, you know, rather than– 

DAWN TAYLOR

Like poutine! 

KIARA BROWN

Like literally poutine, like wearing shorts in Canada minus 10 degrees. I'm like, that's Canadian. Anything else that's like specific foods, like dances, clothes, I'm like, there's, there's nothing here that really, like, no, makes us fancier or interesting. Like, we just have the stereotypes that everybody likes to make fun of, but like, oh, that–

DAWN TAYLOR

That's so interesting.

KIARA BROWN

Like, I'm like, I don't even know anything about my culture really at all. So I'm like, when people ask those questions, like, part of me is annoyed, but part of me is also like a little bit embarrassed because I'm like, I don't know. Most people, I feel like they know a little bit at least, but I'm like, I have no idea. Like, I can't answer your questions, guys. I'm sorry. 

DAWN TAYLOR

No, that is, no, and it makes sense, like, man. For anyone who hasn't been to Canada, man, Come to Edmonton and just come to heritage days and experience Canada in a different way. So looking up culture versus heritage, right? Culture is made up of our beliefs and habits as a group or society.

Right? That's our culture. So, like, Edmonton has a culture. A group will have a culture where the heritage is things included from the past that are then coming into the present and are constantly changing. So, I know one thing I'll often ask in my work is because a lot of generational staff is so, like, it's so intertwined, right?

Like we hold the trauma of our ancestors and our DNA for up to three generations. So it's an interesting topic today because, like, I have to ask this every single day of my work is like, what is, like, what is your background, right? And I'm, I'm constantly like, and one of the ways that I have often started asking it is like, where are your ancestors from?

KIARA BROWN

Oh, that's a good way to ask.

DAWN TAYLOR

Right? Like, not you, not, where are you from? Like where are your ancestors? Because like my ancestors are from like Germany and the Ukraine and Russia and the states, like all of those areas that doesn't make me that way. But growing up, we were raised with some, like, with some cultural habits and beliefs and things based on that. Like there are some weird things of my childhood that I'm like, oh my word, I'm so Eastern European. Like, my relatives definitely are Eastern Europeans. 

KIARA BROWN
Yeah. 

DAWN TAYLOR

You know, based on that, that action or that belief or whatever it is. And so would you appreciate that as the question more is, like, “Where are your ancestors from?”

KIARA BROWN

Yeah. I feel like that's like, ‘cause it's not assuming. You know, I'm from somewhere else, or that I am something else. 

DAWN TAYLOR
Totally.

KIARA BROWN

And it kinda like, makes it, at least for me, I'd be like, “Oh, like this person actually really is interested.” In, you know, like my history. Like, they don't, they're not just fishing for information to, like, make jokes or something like. Ilike the way that it's worded. I feel like that's much more respectful and it'll avoid less controversy if people just ask that question instead of not believing the person that they're talking to. 

DAWN TAYLOR

Just a little easier. Well, and then, and tell me if I'm wrong, because I've been thinking through this, right? Like even just within my own clients, like, someone actually asked me one time, they're like, “So what kind of people do you work with?” And I was like, “Humans?” 

KIARA BROWN

What do you mean? 

DAWN TAYLOR

Like, fully understanding the question, but it was someone who wanted to refer someone from another culture to me, like from a different ethnic background for, we wanna word that ancestral background, right? And I was like, no, no, no. I love working with people from other cultures and backgrounds ‘cause I really understand a lot of, and I'm very, very curious about, like, how our great grandparents were raised and their beliefs on things and how that's travelled down generationally, even though I can say I'm German and not know a thing about German culture. 

I could Google the characteristics of an Eastern European woman and I probably check off 90% of the boxes. And I find that so interesting and so empowering to understand where people come from because it plays so much into, like, who they are currently. So, two of the things I was thinking is, like, to ask someone, like, where are your ancestors from and did your family carry any of those traditions into your childhood? 

KIARA BROWN

That's another really good question. 

DAWN TAYLOR

Right. Like, like did any of those cultures, did any of those things get carried into your childhood?

KIARA BROWN

Yeah, I like that question and at least then, like, you know, you can kind of get to know where they stand without offending them. 

DAWN TAYLOR

Well, ‘cause then if it's like not a thing, then you're like, okay, cool. 

KIARA BROWN

Kinda have all the information that you need.

DAWN TAYLOR

Done, conversation over. 

KIARA BROWN

Right. Next topic. 

DAWN TAYLOR

But if it's like, actually yeah, we had, like, a crazy childhood with all of these traditional things and all of these things that were, for my childhood, I can be like, oh, that's amazing. Yeah. Right. Tell me more. 

KIARA BROWN

And I feel, like, from there then you can be like, so like, “Were you born here?” But just raised that way. Then, then it's not, it's not as offensive.

You're already in the conversation. So it's like, okay, like now I can kind of ask like where you're from and then there's no, like, big rant or tangent, you know, to whoever about like, people are so disrespectful or whatever. 

DAWN TAYLOR

Right. And I honestly think that the majority of people don't mean to be disrespectful.

KIARA BROWN

Yeah. Actually, I had one guy that was, I don't know if those were his intentions, but he was pretty rude. Like I had just encountered, but you know what I find, like, especially here, no offence, but like it's a lot of African people if they if you are not from Africa, but you are black. It's, like, insane to them.

DAWN TAYLOR

Oh, interesting.

KIARA BROWN

Every, like, semi-rude encounter that I've had with somebody, like just being super weird. It's always with somebody from Africa. I don't, and I have no idea why. like, my mom's like, “Yeah,  Africans are just like that.” But I'm like, I don't–

DAWN TAYLOR

I love the, like weird, almost like racism within racism.

KIARA BROWN

Yeah, I'm like, I don't get it. But like there's still, like, I have a coworker and, like, she's from Africa and she was new to the daycare and she had asked me, she was like, “Are you from Africa?” And I was like, “No.” She was like, “Where are you from?” And I was like, “I was born here.” And she was like, “That's interesting.” And laughed.

And I was like, “What do you mean, why did you laugh like that?” I'm like, “Why is that interesting?” Or when I was in school, this other African girl was like, “Where are your parents from?” And I was like, “Um, my mom's from Jamaica.” And she was like, “What?” She was like, “What about your dad?” And I was like, “Oh, he's from Canada.”

And she was like, “Your dad's white?” I was like, ”What? I never said that.” Like, I don't even look half-white. Like, I mean, maybe, no, but I'm like, uh, no. 

DAWN TAYLOR

Check the show notes. You can see a gorgeous picture! 

KIARA BROWN

Literally, like this, where in this is, maybe my hands. That's about it. Like, no, there's, I'm like, what? And then like, those were just two like weird encounters, but like, I'd say like the rudest one, I was in an Uber, and again, it was this African guy I only know because he had a really strong accent.

So I was like, obviously you're not from here. But he would, as again, asking where I was from, like, I was like, “Oh, like I'm from here.” And he is like, “Oh, like what about your parents?” And I told them, I told him like where they were from and he was like, yeah, he's like, but where's your country of origin?

And I was like,” Um, here.” He was like, no, but like, “Where were you born?” And I was like, “Here, literally in this city.” And he is like, “No, no, no.” Like, “You're not really Canadian.” And I was like, “Yes I am.” He would not let it go. Like, he just kept saying that I'm not really Canadian and that like, I don't know what I'm talking about, and I was like, what do you mean? Like, I mean, I don't remember my birth, but I'm pretty sure they wouldn't lie on a birth certificate. 

DAWN TAYLOR

Right, right. 

KIARA BROWN

This is really where I'm from. Like, and he just, he kept laughing in my, like in my face, like I was, you know, in the backseat. Yeah. But he kept giggling and, like, just like, “No, no, no.” Like “She doesn't know where she's from.” Like, “What is she talking about?” Like talking to nobody but, like, talking about me while I was still in the car and I was like, 

DAWN TAYLOR

Oh, my word. 

KIARA BROWN

Is this a real conversation right now? Am I really talking like, is this really happening? And like, like I heard him after that. Like, you know, cause like I was offended, like, and usually I don't get offended by like, you know, racist things.

Like, I'm just like, you know, whatever. People are stupid. Like, there's just ignorant common sense when they were born. But like, I was really offended. Like, I was like, how dare you say that I'm not really Canadian, just because it's so shocking to you that I could be born here. Yeah, that was like really the only conversation that I was like, Ew.

DAWN TAYLOR

So, how do you, I mean, short of you're just getting mad, right? How do you deal with those comments when they come? Or even like, like when so what was the movie that just came out? Little Mermaid.

KIARA BROWN

Oh my God. 

DAWN TAYLOR

Hey, I wanna know your thoughts on, but also like, how do you deal with those comments when those comments happen or you, when you get treated different?

KIARA BROWN

Um, I usually just, like, rant to my sisters about it ‘cause most of the time they're, you know, they get it. They agree. So, and like, I don't really have any black friends honestly. Like, I have my sisters and that's it. 

DAWN TAYLOR
Really?

KIARA BROWN

Like, yeah, I don't, I don't remember really ever having any like black friends, ‘cause there was not a lot of black people when I was in school. It was like other cultures. But yeah, I just rant, you know, to my sisters on the occasion. My mom, You know, cuz I'm sure she's experienced more than I have. 

But yeah, I just rant about it and kind of get it off my chest. And then what mostly helps me is just making fun of how stupid that person was because it's like, I'm like, yeah, you can say all the racist shit you want, but I'm like, at the end of the day you look dumber than I do. Like you're saying this out loud, like, isn't that embarrassing to you? Like I just mock them and sometimes I'll, like, have a fake conversation of me telling them off.

DAWN TAYLOR

Oh, that's amazing. 

KIARA BROWN

I just get rid of all the annoyingness. And then I'm like, okay. 

DAWN TAYLOR

You're like, I'm good now. 

KIARA BROWN

Yeah, because like, and I think because it's mostly just comments. Whatever, like words are words like, you know, like, they hurt, but I can get over it. It's not like you, you know, punched me in the face or anything. Like, you know, it's like, oh my God, whatever. Okay, sure. Be ignorant. Like, that's you. 

DAWN TAYLOR

Yes. Like, I'm trying to think of, like, how many times in my life I've probably been so ignorant without even realizing it. It's like without even thinking. 

KIARA BROWN

And then like, if it's, I can tell that, you know, they're just trying to be curious. I'm like, okay, like, how cute, you know, like still a little bit in a mockery way. Like if I'm venting, if it was like enough for me to talk about it after. But if it's like someone's genuinely curious, like I kind of appreciate that person.

I'm like, oh, like you're so sweet. Like you're trying to kind of get to know who I am. Like, like, and I like it, like I respect. And like, you know, if, if it is something that's like bothered me and it's like, then I know who you are, then I'm like, you know what? Like the other day when you said that thing, like, little bit racist, maybe you shouldn't say that again.

Well, luckily it's just me and I'm a non-violent person, but I'm like, there are some black people in this world that, you know, they might do something and uh, you don't wanna end up like that. So watch what you're saying. 

DAWN TAYLOR

Like just don't say that again. 

KIARA BROWN

Right. Think about it. Google it. Google is your best friend. She tells you all the things you need to know and like just, and I feel like if you have to question it, like if you have to question like, was that racist? Like if you're not a person of color, then it probably is like if you have to ask yourself. What's it that I said was offensive? I'm like, yeah, probably. Just don't do it again. Apologize if you need to learn from your mistakes. 

DAWN TAYLOR

I know. How many times have I asked you, like, “Is this appropriate to say, can I say it like this?” And you just laugh at me. You're like, “Yeah, you're fine.” 

KIARA BROWN

Yeah. 

DAWN TAYLOR

But I'm also like, but I'm also very, I'm very, very hyper aware of that, because I don't ever wanna come across as racist or stereotyping or anything. At all. But I'm also like the most curious human being and genuinely desire to know people and know what their childhoods are like, and know the weird foods they ate or weird traditions they had. And we do, like we live in a country with over 200 distinct cultures. 

KIARA BROWN

Yeah, which is insane.

DAWN TAYLOR

Right? Which is nuts if you think about it. Yeah. Okay. So the reaction to Little Mermaid, talk to me about that ‘cause the look on your face is amazing. 

KIARA BROWN

I hate that entire, the whole controversy around the Little Mermaid. I'm like, what is wrong with people? I don't like, I have no–

DAWN TAYLOR

Explain the controversy from your standpoint to begin with.

KIARA BROWN

Okay. So, You know, whatever time it was announced that the Little Mermaid was coming out, like, they were like, “Oh yeah, it's so awesome.” Not the new one. And then once the actress was announced, I don't even know her name, Hailey something, and people saw that she was black. I was like, “Oh, I know this is gonna get all the white people mad.”

Or like 60% of them at least, you know, the bad ones. Um, and like, I was kind of prepared for it. Like, I didn't really comment to people about, I didn't really encounter anybody in my personal life that was offended by it, thank God, because there would be some issues. But yeah, I mean, I like to read the comments just to see how dumb people are.

Um, you know, it makes myself feel a little bit, that there's so many weird people. But, um, I was like, I mean, even though I was expecting the reaction, like I was kind of disappointed because, oh, it was like, it was so heartbreaking. Like, you know, there's so many little girls like videos that people would show of their, like, little black daughter, so excited that, you know, they look like Ariel, Ariel looks like her, and then there was like a brief moment where people started to do blackface, like mocking those videos. I'm like, oh my God. 

Like, what is happening right now? Like, that was the part that, like, really disgusted me. Like, I'm like, are you like, come on. It's like we're in the 21st century and you're, you're acting that way and, like, posting it online for people to see Like, I was like, I was in shock when people started doing blackface. Like, I was like, okay, I think it's a little bit too much now. Like you can be mad about it, but don't do that. Like, you know. 

DAWN TAYLOR

So do you think part of it is, and this is interesting, because I, like, spend all day, every day with people. Of every sexual preference, every identity, every, like, you name it, you name it. I talk to anyone and everyone on a daily basis. And it was interesting, the people that just don't get it, right? And I mean that in a way of, like, a man will never understand a woman's feelings around being always paid less. They'll never get that, they'll never get the gender equality thing because they, they can't, they're on the other side of it, 

KIARA BROWN

On the wrong side of things. 

DAWN TAYLOR

Right. And I feel like often there's– it's so funny, I'm like, I have to be so careful with what I say. 

KIARA BROWN

Cause I'm like, be careful around me. People can stay offended if they want to. 

DAWN TAYLOR

No, no, no. Right. But like, and I know I won't offend you, but like, I often think is it, is it that there's, so like say my grandparents, for example, my grandparents that were like these beautiful little German Mennonite farmers, lived in this really tiny town and community of like maybe a couple thousand people at its peak.

Right? Like they just, they weren't ever put in a position to know anything about other cultures. Like, that was never something they were faced with. It wasn't something that was even brought into their world like, If you were raised in Northern Saskatchewan and a little tiny farming community and every street name within 10 miles is a family member. Like you aren't thrown into even having to understand it. 

KIARA BROWN

Yeah. 

DAWN TAYLOR

Right. There's just, but, there's a lot of people will look at that as ignorance, and I think that it's almost like an innocence. It's like a sad innocence. Where it's like you've just never been, you've never been in a position to learn.

You've never been in a position to be forced to learn or even know that it's an option to learn, right? And so I wonder if some of it, again, not justifying people's shit behavior, but if some of it is actually just like, “Hey, you know what? I've never been in your shoes. I've never been there and I don't understand it.” But, people are so offended by everything these days that people are scared to be like, “Hey, can you explain this to me?”

KIARA BROWN

Yeah, yeah. I noticed that a lot. Like, I like to give people the benefit of the doubt just ‘cause like I'm a people pleaser, but, like with the whole Ariel mermaid thing, like there was a lot of people that were like, “Oh, like, but what if they did that with, you know, The Princess and The Frog?” I'm like, okay, well, she's literally the only black princess, so it wouldn't make sense to make somebody else, you know? But, like, I kind of understood, like, both sides, like I would be, you know, confused. I don't know if I would be offended, but I would be confused if they did that with Tiana making her a white girl. So like, you know, I get people being, you know, upset. They wanted the, like, original Ariel, like the way she looked and everything. So like, I get it, you know, people just wanting it to stay the same, but at the same time–

DAWN TAYLOR

No, but there's the other side of it.

KIARA BROWN

She's a fish. Like, she's not even a real thing. She's not a, like, I mean, I believe mermaids exist, but I'm like, we've never seen one. So in reality, it's a cartoon character. She could be purple, like nobody cares. It's a fish in an ocean. Talking to other fish, it's fine. 

DAWN TAYLOR

But even not only that. You and I just over, like, lunch one time as a date. Like we were on, like, a coffee date when you were having a rough day or something when you were like, I don't know, probably like 13, 14. And we were talking about, and we can cut this if we need to, but we were talking about the fact that, like, even dating looked different or having friends or having cuss on boys, like all these things just looked different because you never saw what that looked like before.

KIARA BROWN

Yeah, definitely. Even, like, now, like in my adult life, I'm like, I still kind of get on the fence about, like, dating and stuff. ‘Cause you know, I don't, I don't really see it unless it's on social media. It was some, like, famous couple, like yeah, I wasn't surrounded by it. And you know, like, my dad, like, he always made it, like, me and my sisters make fun of it, but like, he made it like a thing how like we had to marry a black guy.

But like, the way he would word it, it's like, um, like if we were like, oh, we have a crush on, So-and-so, it's like, he would say, “Is he a brother?” Like, ‘cause that's like black people, they just call each other like brother and sister, auntie, whatever. So we would always, like, my sisters and I would always, like, laugh and mock that phrase.

DAWN TAYLOR

That's awesome, yeah. 

KIARA BROWN

It was so funny. But like, we would, but then I'm like, I feel like that kind of hindered my view on dating outside of my own culture. Like, I'm just like, like, is it like, why? Are those the only guys that are gonna go for me? And like, I don't know if this is racist or not. I'm not into black guys.

I just don't care for them. Um, it's, just not my preference, but it's like, do other people say the same thing about me? Like, do they not wanna date me because I'm black? Like, and there was like a very brief moment in time where I, like, didn't see myself as pretty because, you know, like all the guys were going for the white women or no, anything other than black. And I'm like, I'm like, are we not good enough? Like, you know, what is the, and it wasn't talked about in my house. We weren't, we didn't talk about dating and things like that. I didn't have, all my friends were white, so, you know, they didn't have an issue with getting anybody they wanted.

So, like, I didn't really have anybody to turn to when it came to dating and stuff like that. Like I have my older sisters, but like, my oldest sister's five, four, seven years older than me. So, you know, when she was dating I'm like, I was like in grade six and I wasn't, I didn't date at that age, you know.

So the one did come to dating, it was like, “Oh, like I like this guy.” And then, you know, like she would tell me to like, go for it. But then it's like, “Okay, but like he's white. Is he really gonna like me?” Like yeah, it, it was, it's always a question. Even now, like, I'm just like, do they, like, even if they've seen me in my head for some odd reason, I'm like, “Do they know I'm black though?” Like I know we've made eye contact, but have you seen my skin? Like, look, they're like, I'm like, yeah, they’ve seen me. I'm like, but did they really see me? 

DAWN TAYLOR

Like, but did they notice, did they have their color eyes on? 

KIARA BROWN

Like, did they see, like, their color? I don’t know why.

DAWN TAYLOR

That's amazing. 

KIARA BROWN

I have no idea why that question pops in my mind.

Yeah. Like knowing that they've actually physically seen me. Yeah. But it's, what if they forgot and, like, changed their minds? Like, even with my first relationship, he was white or half-white, Hispanic, whatever he was, and like, It got to like a point where, ‘cause like I always had braids in my hair. I, lik,e rarely ever have my hair like this mostly ‘cause I didn't know how to do it. But, my mom was just always braiding our hair and so it came time to, like, take my hair out, like, “I'm not braiding your hair again.” I was like, oh my God, like is he gonna break up with me because of my hair? Like, and I was genuinely very worried.

It's such a dumb question. Like, I had a conversation with him. I was like, “Okay, like, you know, like, my hair isn't as long as it was in braid, like, it's shoulder length. It's not halfway down my back.” And he's like, “Yeah, okay, that's fine.” And I'm like, “But like, do you still like me?”

And he was like, “I'm not dating you because of your hair.” Like, yeah, if that was the case, then what would be the point? Kind of thing. But, like, it was a genuine worry for me and like I didn't know how to like, process. 

DAWN TAYLOR

Yeah. Well, and that's, thank you so much for that vulnerability. I think that's where, like, I personally get excited. I mean some of my favorite people that I follow online are black creators and interior decorators and stuff ‘cause it's just, like, they use so much color and it's bold and it's beautiful and I don't know. I love it. And they're so stylish. Like, I personally, they're some of my favorites. 

KIARA BROWN
Yeah.

DAWN TAYLOR

Right, and I've always had black friends, and especially as an adult and things like that. And so for myself, having heard some of this before and understanding that, I remember walking through life for about a week where everywhere I went and was like, “What if I was the minority? What if I didn't feel like I fit here? What if I didn't see myself on a mannequin or didn't see myself in a magazine or didn't see myself on a TV show and couldn't identify?”

KIARA BROWN

Mm-hmm. 

DAWN TAYLOR

Right. Because as a white woman, it's so easy to see myself in all of those situations. Yeah. Because I'm everywhere, right? And so for me, every time I see, like, a new TV show come out or I see, you know, Shonda Gardner and Caron Hamilton, and I'll link them in the show notes.

They're two incredible designers that I have followed for years, quietly in the background ‘cause I don't comment ‘cause I'm bad, but like every time they have a massive success. I'm so excited. And when I saw Little Mermaid come out, I was like, that's amazing. Like, yeah, why can't we change it? Why can't we change how things are being?

KIARA BROWN

Exactly. 

DAWN TAYLOR

And make the world feel safer for people. Help more people to feel seen or understood or heard or whatever. 

KIARA BROWN

Yeah. 

DAWN TAYLOR

I mean it's, the whole point of this podcast, let's be honest, is, like, help people feel seen and heard and understood and, and have these conversations. 

KIARA BROWN

Yeah. And like, this just, like, randomly popped in my mind. When you said safer, it, like, triggered like a memory? Like, of a conversation that I had had mostly about the states. And I used to have a friend, she lived there for a bit. And she was saying I should come and visit her. And I was like, no, like “I wanna see you, but like I don't wanna go there.”

She was like, why? And I was like, because you know, often people who look like me get shot by the police or get the cops called to them, get yelled at by some random Karen walking in the streets. I'm like, I don't wanna have to risk that and I don't wanna go to the States ever. And you know, she was like, oh, like, “Well, this didn't happen in the area that I live in.”

I'm like, it literally happens all over that country. I don't care where you're living. It happens every single day to someone, whether it's filmed and, you know, it goes viral or not. It's always happening. And I'm not trying to risk it, like, not trying to say that Canada's not, you know, racist, but like–

DAWN TAYLOR

No, no, but it's not, it doesn't feel dangerous. It doesn't feel dangerous here. 

KIARA BROWN

Yeah. Like if I'm, you know, walking on the sidewalk and I see a cop car, I don't get scared. Like, I'm just like, “Oh, they're just patrolling in the area.” But I feel, like, if I was in the States then and I saw a cop car, I would get nervous because I'm like, I've seen all the videos, I've seen people walking to their car and they get tackled.

I'm like, I don't wanna risk my life trying to go get my mail or catch the bus. And like, I often run to the bus stop because I always leave late. I'm like, if I was in the States, and this like comes across my mind at least once a month, like when I'm running for the bus, I'm like, if I was in the States right now, like somebody might think that I’m running from some, doing some sort of criminal activity. I'm, like, thank goodness that I live in the area that I do where I don't have to worry every day about taking the bus and having somebody, you know, call someone on me cuz they think I'm suspicious. Like if it's a very nice, safe country, if you don't live here, that should come here because, oh, I know it's, the States sucks.

DAWN TAYLOR

But us listeners are like, “And delete.” They're like, no, no. It's just, it's just so, it is so different. I was in Florida quite a few years ago when there was a ton of unrest, we'll put it that way, going on around Black Lives Matter stuff. And this was quite a few years ago, and I remember walking with a friend there and she's.like, “No, no, no. We're fine ‘cause we're white.” And I was like, “What?” And I felt in danger and she's like, I can't even believe I'm gonna say this, but like, “We're okay.” Yeah. And I was like, “That's gross.” That's like, that's actually gross. Like, that should not be a concern is like how to teach your kids to deal with cops and how to do those things ‘cause that's, that's never something we like, I'll ever have to deal with.

KIARA BROWN

Exactly. 

DAWN TAYLOR

Right. So, on behalf of. Ignorant idiots everywhere. I'm so sorry. Do you have to deal with that? Cause that's, folks, I'm apologizing on behalf of all the white people. 

KIARA BROWN

All the bad white people. All bad white, white people in my life. You are the greatest white person that I know. 

DAWN TAYLOR

Thank you. There's some good ones out there, right? 

KIARA BROWN

So we'll just, we'll just apologize for the bad. The bad apples  in the basket. 

DAWN TAYLOR

Oh, there's bad apples in every basket, like you said, with like other cultures against you, right. But, is there anything that people can do or say or ways that they can react in not just, like, donating money to a fund, but like an actual, like, tangible, hands-on thing that people could do to ease some of that barrier?

KIARA BROWN

Um, I definitely feel like the biggest help, especially when it comes to, you know, those in power, like cops and any government official. I feel like the training is like where they need to start. Like, get a really good teacher, whoever trains those people. You know, like, ‘cause like there's racist cops everywhere, but I feel like, you know, you can donate as much as you want to, what, all the organizations in the world.

But I'm like, essentially like, yeah, you're helping, but like, like probably 2%. I'm like, you're just putting money who, even, I don't even know who runs those things. Like, you could just be a liar who's like, oh yeah, like I'm donating to Black Lives Matter. But, really they're just pocketing the money for themselves or putting it somewhere else.

So I feel the best way to start would be to retrain all those people, you know? I don't know how long cop training is, but I'm pretty sure it's, like, not that long. I've heard, I could be wrong, but I've heard it's not, it's not very lengthy. Um, they could probably make it a bit longer and, you know, teach how to deal with different situations.

DAWN TAYLOR

But what about even, on a tangible level for just like an everyday person. I know one of the things that I was thinking about and like stepping into this episode today was like, what about even, just, like, making eye contact and saying hi? Like, just befriend people like that. Just like knowing that we're all the same. We're all just humans. 

KIARA BROWN

Exactly. Yeah. Like saying hi, acknowledging, and I think also a really big thing would be teaching about black history in school. I mean, I haven't been in school for a bit, but I know at least when I was in school, it was literally never talked about like, like the idea was floated, but like people would probably hear that from like, you know, their, their parents or cousins or whoever, wherever that person heard it from.That's where it was. Like all word of mouth stuff. Um, I feel like teaching it in schools, like, or teaching about differences from like a young age, you know, like–

DAWN TAYLOR

I was gonna say, even just talking about cultural differences as a whole. 

KIARA BROWN

Yeah. Like, just like letting it be known, like, you know, just because they look different. Like we're all the same. ‘Cause like, you know, I've, I've encountered kids, like in my adult life, like working with kids, you know, they would make comments like, oh, like your skin looks like poop. Or like, they'd be, “Oh, why are you brown?” And it's, like, innocent, you know? Like, I just laugh about it, you know? It's like a funny story for me to tell to their parents ‘cause like they're so innocent. Like, but I'm like–

DAWN TAYLOR

“Can I lick you? Do you taste like chocolate?” Oh, my God. 

KIARA BROWN

That one funny story. My cousin, so for some odd reason, I don't know how biology works, but in my family, on my dad's side, both his parents were black. Somehow his sisters came out like tan- looking. 

DAWN TAYLOR

They're very pale compared to the rest of you. 

KIARA BROWN

Yeah. Right. And so my youngest cousin, I don't know if you remember him, but actually I won't even say his name on here, but my youngest cousin when he was little, because he was, you know, different-like colored than the rest of us, he always a different shape, like chocolate and he would always try to lick us and like he was so little, right?

So, but he's like, “Can I taste your chocolate skin?” And like, no. Like I'm not a chocolate bar. I'm a person. And it was so funny to me, like when you said chocolate, like it just, I just brought that memory up. I haven't thought it in such a long time. Remember when you thought we were chocolate? How do you think now? Yeah. Like, but kids, like, they're so innocent. So like, you know, when kids ask me, like, especially if they ask me like, “Why is your skin darker?” Like, I'm just like, oh, like, you know, “I was just born like this.” And I always, even though they're toddlers, I, like, retort the question back to them.

Like, “Why are you like that?” Like, why do you look like, they're like, because like it's only the sassy kids that ask those questions. Yeah. And I'm like, oh, like “Why do you look like that?” And they're like, because like, “This is just my skin.” I'm like, “Yeah, same here.” Like, or one kid asked, like, he's like, “Why are you brown?” And I was like, oh, like “I was born like this.” And he is like, “For your whole life?” I'm like, yeah. 

DAWN TAYLOR

Crazy. 

KIARA BROWN

Like, mind boggling. I'm sorry that it's so crazy, like, but I'm like, oh, it's cute. Like, you know, you just, and you can't, like, I feel like a lot of parents, they kind of tiptoe around it when their kids ask those questions.

Like, they're like, oh, like I don't know what to say. I'm like, just be honest about it. Teach them to be respectful. It's literally so easy. Like they're not asking because they’re afraid. They literally just wanna know, like, kids are very ignorant in an innocent way. They just wanna know, like, I'm like, just teach 'em. Like, it starts with the parental generation. Like they're the ones who have to teach their kids to accept everybody for–

DAWN TAYLOR

Let's just say that word again. It's so much about acceptance.

KIARA BROWN

Right?

DAWN TAYLOR

Acceptance. And not just judging ‘cause it's so, it is, it comes from. And how we talk about people and how we discuss people and how we look at things and yeah, like–

KIARA BROWN

And it's always like, oh, you know, like my dad was, you know, he didn't like black people growing up. So that's how I was taught. I'm like, yeah, maybe if you were taught differently, your views would be different. So I'm like, you gotta, like, you gotta teach your kids to accept and be respectful towards everybody. Yeah. And then the world will be slightly less violent, right? There will still be chaos everywhere, but at least that would be dealt with.

You would take care of a little tiny corner. Like everybody's like, oh, like the world would be so much more peaceful, a better place. I'm like, uh, not really, but if you got rid of one of the negative things, 

DAWN TAYLOR

You're hilarious.

KIARA BROWN

It'd be like 2% better.

DAWN TAYLOR

At least give would tweak for a few of us, right? Like some of us just a little bit.

KIARA BROWN

But everything else will still be there. Pollution. 

DAWN TAYLOR

I love it. 

KIARA BROWN

Global warming is still an issue.

DAWN TAYLOR

Love it. You crack me up. You totally cracked me up. I could not love it. I adore you more. I hope you know that. No, I, I hope that anybody listening to this today and hanging out with us today, that you heard something that triggered something, shifted an idea for you.

I mean, even if, ask the question different, like, where are your ancestors from, right? And did any of those like cultural parts from your ancestors come in? Like were you raised with any of those? Like, just even some simple questions like that on how to talk differently, teach your kids differently, and start to shift your thinking on it.

I think that we need to be more curious. We need to be less judgmental, but we also just need to give people a bit more grace. When it comes to their crazy judgments of us, ‘cause all hell. Some people are just actually ignorant and stupid and other people are actually just genuinely curious and don't know any better, right?

So, I hope you learned something. Please, please give us some feedback on this in the show notes or send me an email about this. Join us again in two weeks for another amazing topic and please tell your friends and other people, uh, show notes located @ thetaylorway.ca where you can also see a beautiful picture of Miss Kiara. I know there's a couple on there cuz she's a stunner. And all the contact information for her as well and her new business as she's starting doing prenatal care, which you're gonna–

KIARA BROWN

Can I even tag my business name? Give you the name of it? I don't think I did. 

DAWN TAYLOR

You didn't. But I'm gonna ask you for it cause I saw it in the notes you sent me. So subscribe now on Apple, Spotify, wherever you listen to your podcast. If you love the show, please leave a rating and a review. And thank you so much, Kiara, for being here today. 

KIARA BROWN

Yes, thank you for talking with me about this. It was really fun actually. And therapeutic. 

DAWN TAYLOR

Good, and you're still welcome. The vulnerability was incredible and I love your heart.

And listeners, we'll see you in a couple weeks. Bye.

Content Warning: Sexual assault, eating disorder and brain injury

This week Dawn interviews Dawn? Not precisely, Dawn's guest is Jenny Ryce, who has hijacked the podcast to interview Dawn. The topic covered is about a pivotal time in Dawn's life that continues to have an impact to this day: her brain aneurysm.

Dawn describes to Jenny what life was like immediately before the brain aneurysm. Dawn and her family spent the week leading up to the medical event fighting about Dawn's decision to report a family member for a previous sexual assault. Three days before her 18th birthday, Dawn suffered a brain aneurysm. Most people would’ve died, but against all odds, Dawn made it to the ER and survived. Jenny urges Dawn to remain vulnerable and gets Dawn to illustrate the immediate aftermath of this accident. Dawn obliges and describes the physical, mental, and emotional changes that occurred almost instantly and impress upon us how these changes are here to this day. Dawn also tells Jenny about the heartbreaking conversation with her neurosurgeon about her future life, that she was not likely to see 40. The listener will get an idea of what it is to live with having a known "death day."

Dawn reveals to Jenny that her "death day" was five years ago! Spoilers, she made it! The passing of this "d-day" forced Dawn to re-examine her life, from what making money looks like to how to form close friendships in her 40s. This episode is a powerful display of vulnerability, hope and humour. The listener will leave this experience with a childlike wonder and curiosity.  

About Dawn Taylor

Dawn Taylor is the professional ass-kicker, hope giver, life strategist, trauma specialist, and all-around badass. Dawn's journey into helping others heal began when she took her personal recovery from the trauma she experienced in her life into her own hands. While at times unconventional, Dawn’s strategic methods have helped hundreds heal from traumas such as issues related to infidelity,  overcoming addiction,  working through PTSD from sexual, emotional, and physical abuse, as well as helping cult survivors thrive. Dawn’s work has empowered entrepreneurs, stay-at-home moms, and CEOs alike to be the superheroes in their own lives. Having completed thousands of hours of training from many professional programs, including the Robbins Madanes Training Institute, Dawn’s blunt honesty will challenge your thinking, broaden your awareness, and help you achieve the outstanding results you are worthy of.

Dawn Taylor - The Taylor Way: website | facebook | instagram | linkedin

Episode Transcript

Dawn Taylor  00:09

I am your host Dawn Taylor, and today we are talking to the amazing Jenny Ryce. So I'm gonna just turn this right over to you. We're not even gonna do our main intro because Jenny requested I not. So let's turn this right over to you. How are you doing today, Jenny?

Jenny Ryce  00:24

I'm fantastic, and honestly, Dawn, thank you for having me on the show. Because I'm going to play a little trick on you today. I'm turning the tables, and I am a fellow podcast host. And I am going to host you today on your show and put you on the hot seat! Yeah, there it is, friend! I'm sorry. But it's your turn to be on the-. 

Dawn Taylor  00:47

Oh, you are hilarious. So people have been asking me forever to be on my own podcast and to talk about a big thing that's been going on in my life over this last year, two years. And Jenny and I talked about it, and yeah, so surprise on me. I guess I'm talking about this, right.

Jenny Ryce  01:07

Because then you can't prepare and overthink as always like you love to do, have a really deep candid conversation and talk about the things. So if I gave you time to plan and prepare, you might have planned and prepared. So I was like, nope! We're just gonna, I'm gonna be on your show. I want it to be interesting.

Dawn Taylor  01:26

You are hilarious.

Jenny Ryce  01:28

I'm just gonna say to you listeners out there that are loving this in the moment, I am so excited. I'm going to make sure that Dawn lets me do this more than once. So this might be the first time I get to surprise her. But in the future, she's going to know, but we're still going to pretend that she doesn't know that it's coming in the future. Because, yeah, we want to hear how Dawn made it. I want to talk to you did on a little bit. I want to dig in a bit. I love your book. For those of you that don't know, that might be listening right now. Dawn has an incredible book that she's written about her life's journey. Trust me, not all the stories are in there, but quite a few of them are. And it's called Dawn Taylor, "PS, I made it" and it is such a deep and powerful insight into who Dawn is. And I am excited to kind of dig into them a little bit deeper. If you're open, Dawn, I know you already bared your soul in this beautiful book. However, I want to dig a little deeper if you're open. 

Dawn Taylor  02:26

Oh, 100%, you know, I'm always willing to talk about my crazy life.

Jenny Ryce  02:31

I want to jump into for those of you that are going to read the book, we're gonna step into here. It's around page 65, somewhere in there, but I want to step back into time. 1998. Okay?

Dawn Taylor  02:49

That was a year 

Jenny Ryce  02:50

That you share about a really powerful year in your life in 1998. What happened to you?

Dawn Taylor  02:57

I had a brain aneurysm three days before my 18th birthday, so April 7, of grade 12.

Jenny Ryce  03:07

So actually-

Dawn Taylor  03:08

 really not a prime time to have a brain aneurysm, by the way. 

Jenny Ryce  03:11

No!

Dawn Taylor  03:13

I mean, not that there's ever a good time. But April of grade 12, when you're trying to buy grad dresses and figure out prom and going away to university and college. And my now husband had given me a promise ring two days earlier on our, you know, what was it? A two-year anniversary of dating! So I'm like madly in love. And it's all exciting, and had a brain aneurysm.

Jenny Ryce  03:41

You know what? I want to dial in for a little minute. We're talking about an 18-year-old girl, right? Who's just kind of tweaking into the whole womanhood vibe that you're talking about, like you say, these are monumental changes happening in your life.

Dawn Taylor  03:54

Huge.

Jenny Ryce  03:54

And bam, you wake up with what could very well be a life-threatening situation. What I loved about that you shared, there was miracles within the chaos from the moment that aneurysm hit. And, of course, you guys, you have to read the book. We're not giving you all of the deets here! But what I loved is that through all that anguish and pain and fear, let's be real, you don't know what's happening. You share in your book these moments of miracles that happen during this chaotic time. And I'm not going to ask you to recount those miracles. But I would love for you to share what it meant to you writing that looking back and seeing the miracles for what they were. How has that helped you heal in some of your own experience around developing a brain aneurysm at 18 years old? Oh, my word. Yeah.

Dawn Taylor  04:53

Well, and in the book, you'll read that there's a lot of stuff that led to it. So I went to the cops on Friday after school to charge my uncle, who had sexually abused me a couple years earlier and spent all weekend being screamed at by family and degraded and told that I needed to shut my mouth and hold all the shame and everything else. And it was like Monday, it was the Monday or Tuesday, after school, I have a brain aneurysm. And the doctors think it was from all of the stress of everything that was going on in my life because I didn't, I didn't meet any of the requirements, right? Like the quote-unquote, requirements of what caused the brain aneurysm. And, you know, when I came out of it, I remember sitting with a brain surgeon and asking questions because I've always been very logical and logistics based. And I started asking questions, and he started spouting numbers, like, one in 750,000 people survives a brain aneurysm, one in 100,000 of those survives the massive defects. There's a 50% chance I'll die of a second one within 10 years. And when I asked about 20 years, he literally looked at me with tears in his eyes. And he's like, Dawn, nobody makes 20 years. Because I was now going to base my whole life on this right. I'm an 18-year-old sitting in a doctor's office. 

Jenny Ryce  06:18

Yeah. 

Dawn Taylor  06:19

I think that this that I was even by myself, like, my mom couldn't come with me that time. So I had flown down or driven down to do this. And I remember just sitting there and thinking, like, I shouldn't be alive. Like, I'm not supposed to be alive. So it made me teary. So as I was writing the book, and even after it happened, I started looking back and asking questions of people in the moment, right, like, where were people, when they found out where were people when they were dealing with it. My husband is the one who found me and drove me to the hospital, and physically fought a doctor to save my life. Like, it's a pretty insane story. But all of these moments kept coming up. And like one of them, for example, is anyone who's listening in northern BC, and Terrace BC is where I lived when this happened. And we lived out in Jack Pine flats. So we lived out of town, like out in the country, right? And he drove without touching his steering wheel because he was so focused on me down that entire highway into town. And people saw it happening, like people came to me years later, and were like, I literally was following, and he never went, like, we don't even know how we did it, like, blew through every stop sign blew through every red light blew through the four-way stop, like, by the bridges, like all of it, like, didn't at all even know what was going on. And just trying to keep me alive in the passenger seat of his car as I'm passing in and out consciousness, like things like that, like these wild moments that became this, like, why am I alive? Why am I here, because like being brutally honest, at that point in my life, like other than the joy around my relationship, every ounce of me wanted to be dead, like there was so much darkness at that point in my life that I didn't want to survive it. And I was angry for a lot of years. And that's where the miracle piece of it. And even now, looking back over it. And I mean, there's so many, there's like, I could have written about 20 more miracles around it from like finding medivac to how my parents were found to sign off on paperwork to the fact that I'm even here! To the fact that like this, so when this podcast is, when you're listening to this, I have just by a couple days past 25 years, like 25 years, and nobody makes 20. Right? So like, there has to be a different purpose. There has to be purpose for why I'm here. And not just to be a waste of skin. Right, and that's what so much of what's driven me in my life.

08:58

And I think to you know, it provides a different perspective. And I'd like to kind of anchor back to being. I want to read something from your book and just what you shared about what your doctor said as well about, about that 50% and how you know most people don't survive this. So you're an 18-year-old young lady, and these are your words from your book. "I felt like such a freak through it all. Most people were friendly to me, I would sit in my wheelchair, and they would smile and say hi, but I still felt very alone." And what's really powerful about that is that 25 years later, you're here, and you manage to fight through that through all the things that you've been through. You guys, if you read this book, it's just like, how did this woman handle all of this? Nevermind... What I would love, if you are open, is to share what it felt like hearing me read that back to you? 

Dawn Taylor  10:01

Very vulnerable. I think I still often feel like that person. I do. And so one of my big things that has come up over the last year they were talking about earlier and why Jenny wanted to surprise me on this, maybe I'm wrecking her plans for this. But-

Jenny Ryce  10:22

That's okay. I can flow!

Dawn Taylor  10:26

That belief, that core belief that I would be dead as of five years ago, like that, I don't even know how to describe how deep that belief was. But also in the loneliness is like, you have to remember that I was 18. I was trying to graduate high school. I was wanting to have kids and get married and go away to school. And, like, this dream that every 18-year-old has as to what life is going to look like and their plans and their quirks. And, you know, I don't know an 18-year-old that doesn't have all the plans and ideas and dreams and goals and just something there's something that they want to do with their life. But the change that happens from 18 to even like 25 is mind-blowing, it's mind-blowing. And I felt very held hostage and who I was at 18 prior to the aneurysm. And so I felt like, internally, I was changing so much. But I also, like, didn't recognize myself, like I physically didn't know who I was. I would scream if I saw my reflection in a mirror in the middle of the night. And that took years to get over. Like, I'm talking like 10, 15 years to get to the point where I could have it not pitch black, and I could see my reflection and not lose it. There was a stranger in my house, like going away to college. I did manage to go for one semester, but I was still too sick. From the aneurysm, like never should have gone four months later...

Jenny Ryce  11:58

You have met yourself, right?

Dawn Taylor  12:00

I know, right? Why is anyone surprised by that? I just can't believe my parents actually let me.

Jenny Ryce  12:09

But you were gonna go anyway, let's be real.

Dawn Taylor  12:11

I would have figured it out. I would have hitchhiked to that. I'm so stubborn. It's hilarious. But even in that, like I, all my photos, like I'm taping up photos on the wall of my dorm room, and people are like, "Oh, who's that? She kinda looks like you!" And it was like me and my boyfriend, me and my friends, me and my parents and me and my siblings. And I was like, "Oh, that's me!" And people are like, no, because I doubled my body size on steroids. And everything was so different. But also this belief that I was going to be dead. It held me back. It has held me back for 25 years in relationships. Because I saw how much that caused so many people around me so much pain when I had the aneurysm. And I thought I can't be this close to people and have them be hurt even more. If I die, or if I have a second one. So subconsciously and partially conscious, I pulled back. I've pulled back on so many of my relationships with my life and not allowed people close, just kind of been like, you know, my little lone wolf over here and done life alone because I was trying to protect the people around me from D-Day, like from this infamous Death Day in my head. And it's only when the 20-year mark hit that it felt like I went to a complete mental breakdown, almost emotionally, like internally again, because I never share. Right? But, like, internally, because I was like, wait, I'm not dead. There isn't anything in my vision of my life past 38 or 40. There is no plan, there is no dream, there isn't what adult relationships look like. And so having to try to like figure that out. So it's interesting to hear my words because it's been, you know, four years since I wrote them to think, wow, it's probably just in this last year that I've stopped feeling quite that alone, which is really wild. Like I still feel that I feel that all the time still, and that's it's interesting to hear.

Jenny Ryce  12:11

Well, I want to touch into, again, you know, this is indirectly, and I think I want to highlight this for those that are listening as well as I want to bring attention to it for myself. For anybody that's connected with somebody going through different stages in their lives. We forget that our words have impact sometimes, right? They can have lasting impact and put unforeseen barriers on people, you know, that you described on page 71. He said there was a 50% chance I would die of a second brain aneurysm within 10 years that nobody makes it to 20, and I know we've shared that just a few minutes ago, but I want to highlight this for the reason being that those words has held you hostage in your belief system.

Dawn Taylor  15:02

Hundred percent. 

Jenny Ryce  15:03

And unintentional, of course. It is that person's job to give you the facts and the reality of what's potential. But I think what's really important that we talk about and bring light to is. I appreciate you sharing that, is how it curved and changed your trajectory in your life and the relationships that you had. 

Dawn Taylor  15:24

Yeah. Oh, everything, like every area of my entire life, is different because of those words, and hear me when I say this, I frickin love that doctor.

Jenny Ryce  15:33

Oh, yeah, this is not a doctor-bashing situation by any means. When your example is such a polarized example, but as leaders, as people, as parents, as you know, brothers, sisters, mothers, fathers, whatever we are. Anytime we're in connection with someone, I really just want to highlight the importance of the words we use and how we use them. 

Dawn Taylor  15:36

Oh! Not even remotely like, I fought him to know those numbers. I remember sitting in his office and crying and begging him to tell me the statistics! Because I also grew up always feeling like an inconvenience. Like my entire life, I felt like an inconvenience to people, and that was actually one of the main reasons why I needed to know is how do I marry this man if he has to deal with me potentially being dead in 10 years? It's not fair! So he should have the option to walk away now. Find a healthy wife, and go on to have kids and live life and do what he needs to do, right? How do I, you know, start a business? How do I do any of these things? Like, how do you do any of those things if you don't have what your legacy plan is going to be behind it? Like, I don't even know how to describe how essentially deep those words meant. Like fundamental core of my being believed that. Totally!

Jenny Ryce  17:03

Because we're imprinting something on somebody, even if our intention is good, it can create a glass ceiling. You had your glass ceiling, girl.

Dawn Taylor  17:14

Oh, handed to me at 18. 

Jenny Ryce  17:16

Yeah, and that, again, is life-altering. And I should I congratulate you in obviously celebrating that you kick the statistics ass. Thank you very much.

Dawn Taylor  17:16

In a major way.

Jenny Ryce  17:22

 In a major, major way, and you know, I want to stay in this vulnerable piece for a few more minutes if we could just-

Dawn Taylor  17:37

 Yeah, for sure.

Jenny Ryce  17:38

Because I think it's important for people to see, again, I want to be very clear, you had an illness and situation that nobody could see. Other than, of course, when you were bound to your wheelchair, etc. But in your normal life, you look fine. 

Dawn Taylor  17:57

Totally. 

Jenny Ryce  17:58

People don't know, and I want to tap into weight loss and weight gain for just a minute. All the reason being because it's a topic that, like, it plagues people, it plagues everybody.

Dawn Taylor  18:10

Hundred percent. 

Jenny Ryce  18:10

And we're talking about a young woman here who's just, like, basically fought for her life. And then your brains like, I'm sorry, due to the medication that you're on, you get to gain all this extra weight. That's fine. 

Dawn Taylor  18:23

But let's not only just gain the weight, let's go through puberty for a second time, right down to the raging hormones, that all of it. All of that. That was super fun.

Jenny Ryce  18:30

So I'm gonna read I'm going to read this sentence here because this can be jaw-dropping for somebody. I mean, I can't even imagine the strain on your body. "Thanks to all the steroids I was on during and after my hospital stay, my body ballooned by 40 pounds in two weeks." That's like, can you imagine? Like, the you can? Sorry? 

Dawn Taylor  18:59

Yes, yes, I can.

Jenny Ryce  19:00

I, you know, I'm trying to picture picking up two huge bags of dog food and carrying them around all day long, unexpectedly.

Dawn Taylor  19:10

And literally from, like, laying in a hospital bed. Yeah. And the first time you stand up out of a hospital bed, you can't even figure out your own like balance because your weight has shifted so hard.

Jenny Ryce  19:22

Well, and this is the thing, and I want to add this to over the next few months, you gained an additional up to over 80 plus pounds. So your whole world has changed. And then you're dealing with, like you said, sitting in the wheelchair feeling like you don't know who you are. And then you're being questioned about your weight, or you're questioning. You're an 18-year-old girl who doesn't even look like herself, and you share that and though I wanted to highlight this because this is the reason why people didn't recognize you in your photos. 

Dawn Taylor  19:54

Yeah. 

Jenny Ryce  19:55

And you deal with all the actual feedback comes from excessive weight gain.

Dawn Taylor  20:03

Oh, yeah, but even currently, 

Jenny Ryce  20:05

I was gonna say that. So this is the thing that's fascinating that people don't see. You're still dealing with this exact situation. Yet people just assume.

Dawn Taylor  20:16

 I just must eat a lot of doughnuts.

Jenny Ryce  20:18

 Oh, wouldn't that be great?

Dawn Taylor  20:20

No, but it's, but it is legitimately a thing I still have to deal with to this day of, like, people just assume I'm unhealthy. They just assumed that I eat garbage. They just assumed that I am that person, and they have no idea. And it's interesting that society has and don't get me wrong. There's a lot of very unhealthy people that just eat a lot of junk and don't try, but, like, my inner circle will laugh. But yes, I definitely order french fries once in a while. But I'm sorry, ordering french fries like every other week is not an issue. When the majority of my life is actually full of sugar, dairy, gluten-free, healthy IV therapy treatments and supplements and right, like a friend came over literally this morning, and I was making him drink celery juice with me. And he was laughing at me, and he's like, is this one you don't age is because you're always doing weird stuff? And I saw, but the difference is like I have fought to stay alive for 25 years like I have fought for my health for 25 years. But no, I still battle it to this day I have I still deal with brain aneurysm aftermath to this day.

Jenny Ryce  21:33

Well, they don't highlight that, to bring sadness for it. I highlight it to remind people are struggling for we think we don't see. So I invite people to give grace and understanding till you literally walk in someone's shoes. You have no idea what people are going through. Offer kindness, offer love, offer compassion. We never know how somebody got where they got or why they're there.

Dawn Taylor  22:04

You know, I had a really hilarious moment. And it's it is so true. Thank you for bringing that up. It's a really funny moment. Last fall, I was in Vancouver and went with a friend to Victoria. We went to the upgrade labs there. And they do this test that can tell you your cellular health, and it goes through like your trunk and your left arm and your right arm and your left leg, and you're like it goes to other areas of your body. And it's like this is how much water, and this is how much muscle. This is how much fat and this is your optimum healthy weight and all these things. And the girl I'm with is like, like eight-pack abs minimum ripped works out all the time, like, so healthy. And the whole facility is full of people like this, right? And I walk in at, you know, 240 pounds, doing my thing.

Jenny Ryce  22:53

Juicy booty

Dawn Taylor  22:54

I know, right, chunky monkey! And I walk in, and it was so funny because we did this test. And I had healthier cells than all of them. Like at a cellular level. I was healthier than all of them. And they were all shook by it. And they're like, what? And I said never judge a book by its cover. You have no idea.

Jenny Ryce  23:18

That's a mic drop right there. 

Dawn Taylor  23:20

Well, they were like, oh, and then they did the test again because of, like, well, maybe, you know, it wasn't calibrated right? And no, I work very hard to be healthy. Even if it doesn't show up on my on the scale.

Jenny Ryce  23:36

The scale's a devil just saying.

Dawn Taylor  23:40

Especially from a girl who had eating disorders, like I have really, really severe long-term eating disorders in high school. So like, I had an eating disorder when I had the brain aneurysm. So to go from, like, one extreme to the next was so and so, like, that was crazy. That was absolutely nuts.

Jenny Ryce  24:00

Well, and again, you know, you share on page 70 loss of identity, redefining who you are. So let's dig into some fun stuff here. Okay, Who is Dawn Taylor? Like, if you think about Dawn Taylor, now tell me who she is. Who is she?

Dawn Taylor  24:17

Who am I now? Crazy, feisty, calm, stubborn, motivated, driven, lazy. I'm like this weird dichotomy of words.

Jenny Ryce  24:28

 I love it.

Dawn Taylor  24:29

 loving, caring. Like I love people so, so hard, but in the most unconventional ways. 

Jenny Ryce  24:37

I love that. But that's what we're talking about to, like, you know, we get to peel back the layers nowadays and do it differently. We don't have to follow the form and the... So curious, you're sitting beside you, beside your doctor. And you are now what are you saying to 18 old you, who's just come through this horrific experience on the other side, and finding out what is the next phase? What would you share with her?

Dawn Taylor  25:11

You know, the biggest is I was always so stubborn, like the amount of things that I overcame from birth to aneurysm. Like I had more resilience in my pinky finger than I think most people will in a lifetime because of every single thing I've gone through. Right from, like, rejection of a mom who tried to miscarry me her whole pregnancy, right? Like, it was literally rejection and inconvenience from conception. And something in me broke when I look back at it now, past the 20-year mark, something in me broke that weekend, of going to the cops and talking and feeling like I wasn't believed and I wasn't seen and all of those things. And I find it really interesting that the brain aneurysm happened right then because I've always been curious. Or last few years, I've been really curious like, had the brain aneurysm happened at any other point, would I have been that snarky, feisty, mouthy little shithead? To be honest, there was, like, yeah, challenge accepted jerk. Like, that would have been me. Right? Like, that would have been me because that was me through everything else I dealt with. I was that kid. I was that teenager that would stare you down and walk right into you, like, wouldn't even bat an eye. And so, just like, the timing of it is really interesting to my brain. But that's where I'd go back and be like, seriously, like, you're actually going to listen to this. But not only that, it would have been like, Yeah, cool. Okay, so how are we gonna make this like the most amazing 10 years or 20 years of your life? It would have been that and a giant, like, cling to the people that are actually sticking around. Release the people that couldn't. And I don't say that didn't. It's couldn't. I can't imagine what it would have been like being my friend at that point, were our main activities or going shopping at the mall, or hanging out at the movies or the lake or giggling about boyfriends or going skiing. And all of a sudden, I'm in a wheelchair, and I can't do anything the same. That takes a hell of a lot as an adult to stand by a friend when they're going through an injury or an illness like that. And a few pieces of that, number one, what 18-year-old has the emotional intelligence to be able to do that? Not very many. And I spent so long, so hurt by the abandonment of those people and the rejection of those people to just actually love them where they're at and be like, not everyone has the capacity to handle a health issue, or the emotional intelligence to know even how to step up in this way. And I'm talking from, like, a cousin who didn't want to go into town with me because he was embarrassed by my fat, like, I'm talking like, I've had some crazy stuff happen because of the aneurysm in the background, and just giving more grace than that, but also releasing them to be like, You know what, that's okay. You don't need to be my person. Like that can shift that can shift post aneurysm, but also to, like, fight to the death for myself. Like it took a lot of years. And part of it was, I mean, I lived in a small town in northern BC. And I was also 18. So we listen to what our parents are saying, or when we ask for advice from a doctor or things like that, right? We listen. And we just take it at face value and go, okay, they must be right. But to be able to instill in that 18-year-old, like, there's so much more than what these doctors are saying.

Jenny Ryce  29:02

Yeah, your own advocacy. You don't know any, you can shout it from the rooftop.

Dawn Taylor  29:06

No, and you have no idea at 18 that there's a whole world outside of your medical system in your small town is that there's other doctors that if you don't like what one says, you can be like, yeah, that's nice and go find another one, they'll give you a different or better or worse or whatever opinion, but that was part of my role and responsibility in it. That I wish that's what I would go back and I would tell that person, and I think that's something that even now I'll help friends with is when they get a doctor's, you know, I had a friend recently that she was dealing with like needing a colonoscopy and I was like go pay for it. And she's like what, and I'm like, the amount of emotional stresses was causing you waiting for the six months or eight months to be able to get that test. I said was it gonna kill you. And I said watch, and I just sat down, and I literally phoned. I sat on hold, do what needed to be done, and I phoned clinic after clinic after clinic until one would let her pay cash and go in and get it done, like within a week. And she's like, how the hell did you even know to do that? And I was like because I've learned how to be a medical advocate for myself and my spouse. I've had to. I haven't had a choice, but man, to have learned that at 18, I would be so much further ahead than I am now.

Jenny Ryce  30:22

Well, and I always, I always find it fascinating, you know, the wisdom that we have for our younger self, right? You know, and I want to thank the younger Dawn for having the tenacity to fight, you know, and to step in the rain over and over and over again. And this has led you to your passion and your life's work that really, if you think about it, 

Dawn Taylor  30:46

Yeah, it totally has. 

Jenny Ryce  30:47

And you know, it's opened a doorway for you to help other people heal in different ways. Which is such a rewarding. I know what you do. And I know you love what you do and your clients or your... 

Dawn Taylor  30:59

My everything!

Jenny Ryce  31:01

It's your reward. Right? So... 

Dawn Taylor  31:03

Totally.

Jenny Ryce  31:04

 I love you have a chapter in your book, that call, that says health issues are assholes.

Dawn Taylor  31:10

Okay, so my chapter titles are hilarious.

Jenny Ryce  31:13

Honestly, you guys, if you don't even read the book and just read the chapter titles.

Dawn Taylor  31:16

My favourite is "Who needs ovaries when you can have a drug addiction?" that was probably my favourite. I just had, like, I was feeling really feisty one day when I was naming my chapters as a joke, like, those are my working titles. And then in the end, in the end, I was like, oh, no, we're keeping that those are entertaining for me too.

Jenny Ryce  31:38

And I want to share, actually, for everybody that's listening, Dawn has dropped a ton of nuggets about her history, her life story, do not think that I'm letting those slide by, and we're never gonna dig into them. But this episode would be about six hours long if I tackled all of these stories that Dawn has shared. So do know... 

Dawn Taylor  31:59

We'll come back. 

Jenny Ryce  32:00

Yeah, we will be coming back, and I will be tapping into, you know, pre-18, I will be tapping into post-18 and digging into all of that. So don't think I didn't hear her share the spill the beans, don't worry, we got you covered, you're just gonna have to come back and listen, you're gonna have to, you're gonna have to... 

Dawn Taylor  32:22

Right. 

Jenny Ryce  32:23

As we get close to the, you know, closing out our time together, I really want to dig into what life looks like now. So now we know you have hit, you've passed the finish line, friend! Bah lived through D-Day! You've blown the roof off D-Day! So D-Day doesn't exist anymore. Right? What does that mean for you? What does that mean, not only for you but to you?

Dawn Taylor  32:52

So 40 was like the date in my head. It wasn't even your 20 so much as it was 40 years old. That was always like the easy, like, number of my husband and I both had had enough health issues that we both always were like, man, if we ever make 40 like that'll be a big deal. 

Jenny Ryce  33:12

That's like the going joke, right?

Dawn Taylor  33:14

That's like a going joke, right? Like for 24 years. That was the going joke was like, man, if we make 40, we're throwing a Partay! And it's funny because we actually planned a huge party that year, for the month before we turned 40 because neither of us actually, like, I truly didn't actually think we'd make 40. So I was like, what a great way to go out like, it's like a pre-funeral. I know how bad this sounds, but that was literally what it was. 

Jenny Ryce  33:42

Yeah, but if this is what you're thinking, people think this, and I love that you just share it because people that are going through either a diagnosis or a doomsday have some type of their own, literally...

Dawn Taylor  33:54

And no one talks about it! Hence like this whole podcast, this whole podcast is like these conversations. Right? 

Jenny Ryce  34:01

Right!

Dawn Taylor  34:02

And so yeah, we've had this massive party and this whole like we were actually doing a surprise vow renewal, and no one really knew about that, like there was like all of this stuff going down. Because it was also like the anniversary dates, and all of it got cancelled because of COVID, I remember sitting on my driveway beginning of April, right, like literally, what three years ago today that you're listening to this? Because quite episodes coming out on my birthday, literally sitting there and we had all these like chairs, you know, six feet apart, and it's cold out because it abouts 10 in Edmonton. And people came over to, like, wish me happy birthday and just like hang out and like sit and visit, and no one would had really seen anyone for about six weeks at that point. And I we're sitting there, and I was like, this is so anti-climatic Right? Like, I should be dead. And I'm just like sitting on my driveway talking to people, right? Like, it's just...

Jenny Ryce  35:02

This is so random! 

Dawn Taylor  35:03

This is so random! Like it just felt so wrong. But I also like that morning when I woke up was like shit, I'm alive like, huh, okay, maybe it'll happen later today,

Jenny Ryce  35:15

Yeah, the doomsday clock, right. What are doing on April 7 this year?

Dawn Taylor  35:17

Right, like the doomsday clock, like when I say D-Day, like there was literally like a clock going at all times in my head, and like I took April 7 off every single year from work up until last year, because that's the day I was going to die. And I didn't want it to be with clients. Or, while I was at work, I wanted to die at home on my own bed. Like literally like you... I don't know. But we should plan something, right. But that was a thing like that was a thing that I would do because that like that was just where my headspace was. And so as COVID kept going that year, like, all of a sudden, was like, I'm gonna take a giant chance, I'm going to fulfill my lifelong bucket list item dreams. And all of a sudden, like, in the middle of COVID, I'm opening a trauma healing center in like 20 hours away from where I live, and I'm like, sure! But then, like, because there's still health issues from the aneurysm, right, then I end up getting sick, and I couldn't do it. And I had to shut it down after a year. And, you know, just like all of these stupid little things, but all of a sudden, I came back, and I became obsessed with doing medical testing. So I paid for more random bloodwork and had it shipped out to the States or shipped to Europe or shipped out to private labs. And I worked with a naturopath to the point where he was finally like, would you just stop like you've now paid, I'm talking 1000s of dollars. For all of this, like at one point, I have like these like little strips of paper, and I had to like pee like all these times throughout day but like 20 minutes before this and half an hour after this and like, write the info on it, but then have to let them sit out and dry and my husband was like. There's literally like 30 strips of pee sitting around our house right now. Can you please deal with this? Like, I'm talking crazy shit, like I was doing all the things. And I went to my medical doctor, and I went for like an EKG, and I had x-rays and ultrasounds and all the bloodwork he could order, and I was trying to find proof that I was still dying. And that was probably the most fucked up excuse my language, but not feeling on the planet was. As all the tests came back perfect. I'm talking like vitamins, minerals, nutrients; my cortisol level was perfect. My sugar levels were perfect. My blood pressure is normally perfect. Like all the work have done to just stay alive for those 20 years had panned out, and there was this weird. I don't know how to word it. It was almost like disappointment. 

Jenny Ryce  35:27

Yeah.

Dawn Taylor  36:27

It was this weird disappointment because it was like, no, no, but it's supposed to be done! It's supposed to be done! So this, like, I've never planned business past the age of 40. So when they would talk like goal setting and like, what do you want your business to look like in five years? 10 years, 20 years? 30 years? Like, we've never talked retirement? There wasn't even a thought like, that wasn't even a thought! So all of a sudden, like my husband and I are sitting in the backyard going. So what do people do for retirement? What kind of money do we need?

Jenny Ryce  38:32

Right? Yeah! 

Dawn Taylor  38:33

This has never been an option! This has never been an option. We're like, I'm still called. I call people all the time. What are your retirement plans? They're like, what? I'm like, What are you planning? Like are you going to do the Arizona like, are you going to snowbird all winter? Are you going to buy a lake lot? Are you going to just like move into seniors living in your small town, or are you going to move in with your kid? Are you running away? Like, what, what does this mean to you?

Jenny Ryce  39:07

Well, now I know why you were so curious what my plan will be one day.

Dawn Taylor  39:11

Totally. Because I'm asking everybody because there was never, it was like if you've never tasted a spice or herb, and then you walk into a spice market, and all of a sudden they're like, Okay, buy spices, and you're like what the... Actually, like, I don't even know where to start. I'm talking, like, right down to, like, should we own a house? Should we? What does this look like? Pay off some medical debt because it's not going to disappear when we die at 40 and be covered by our life insurance.

Jenny Ryce  39:43

Right! It changes your planning! 

Dawn Taylor  39:46

Everything!

Jenny Ryce  39:47

Or there is planning. I guess that's the flip side. There's actually quite a bit.

Dawn Taylor  39:53

We actually have to plan stuff now. But it also shifts like, hey, what are the relationships we want to build those people?

Jenny Ryce  40:01

That's beautiful. 

Dawn Taylor  40:02

There's a desire for community that I've never had.

Jenny Ryce  40:06

How freeing and how hard? Like, no, but seriously, like, one breath is like, yes. And then the next breath, you're like, oh, this seems like a job.

Dawn Taylor  40:21

It's so much. It's actually been incredibly overwhelming. And I know, without telling my husband's story, he might even be listening to this, hi babe. He also thought because of his own health stuff, he was told he didn't have long to live. So it wasn't just me. Like we collectively as a couple thought we were done by 40.

Jenny Ryce  40:48

Well, it sounds like it was a part of the plan. 

Dawn Taylor  40:50

It was 100% a part of the plan. So all of a sudden, it was like, oh, we need to, like, redo the will. And we need to redo the paperwork. And we need to, we need to shift all of these things. Like I might be the only person I know at my age that has my entire funerals planned. There's literally, like, do you want to know how funny this is? Not only is there a plan, it is like documented right down to, like, these are the people that are going to walk through the house, and they can take a piece of art or a set of Lego or something that means something to them. This is how to find my clients and my phone. This is how you contact this. There is a job letter for you for a current and future job if you need it. 

Jenny Ryce  41:30

Love it. 

Dawn Taylor  41:31

Literally, there is a job letter to whom it may concern regarding Jenny Ryce like. It is that deep. The caterers where the flowers are going to come from I had to shift it this last year because one of the florists shut down her practice.

Jenny Ryce  41:48

Well, that was inconvenient.

Dawn Taylor  41:50

I know. But, like, it has been so big. It has been such a big thing. And I do find it interesting how nobody has ever talked to us about it. 

Jenny Ryce  42:06

Yeah!

Dawn Taylor  42:06

I think no, parent, no therapist, friends, family, knowing that this was the numbers knowing that this was the belief knowing this about us, that no one's ever questioned it. I found I find that really interesting now.

Jenny Ryce  42:24

Denial is a powerful thing, right? 

Dawn Taylor  42:26

Oh, 100%. And it's other people's fears around us dying as well. Right. But yeah, no, I think it's life now is interesting. I'm like fighting the health even stronger. I know I'm doing all...

Jenny Ryce  42:40

It worked! Who knew!

Dawn Taylor  42:42

Right, I'm now, like, doing like heavy metal detox cleanses. And I'm starting some like football treadmill climbing thing on Wednesday. We'll see how that goes. But I'm also, like, starting guitar lessons next week, because I want to learn how to play guitar now. And we're starting to have these conversations about, like, do we want to travel? Where do we want to live? What kind of like we just purchased a vehicle instead of leasing because we're like, wait, we're actually going to be around for a while. So this is easier than them having to hand back a car for a lease. 

Jenny Ryce  43:20

Oh, yeah. Well, again, I think what's so beautiful. And what you're caring about is you're shifting from having this unknown, like, expiry date, that kind of felt very final, you know, like all of us come with an expiry date, we just none of us know what it is. And you, too, thought it was 40. And now you're living in this, this new way of being almost like a childlike curiosity like, hey, wait a minute!

Dawn Taylor  43:48

Totally. And it feels that way. It feels like this weird, childish curiosity. And even then, like, now, I'm like, whoa, what do I want my legacy to be? What do I want my adult years? I call them to be because it's like the pre-D-Day post-D-Day, kind of feel. But I now also wake up every day thinking like, I am alive. Like, I whisper that almost every single morning when I wake up, like, I'm alive. But it's shifting, even like working, like who I'm working with, and what I'm doing this podcast came out of this, you know, all of these things. So it's like, man, how many people deal with this? When they have the cancer diagnosis? So they have all these things that go down, and you're told like there's all these chances of remission, and I get it. Does it still make me nervous? Yes, do I still do things in terms of like my IV treatments and things that I'm doing to strengthen like artery health and all of those things to hopefully not have a second one anytime soon. Yes. Will it potentially take me out at some point soon or at some point in my life? Who knows? I've beat all the statistics so far. But I refuse to let it determine my daily behaviours and actions anymore.

Jenny Ryce  45:17

Hmm. Can you repeat that for me?

Dawn Taylor  45:20

I refuse to let it determine and dictate my daily actions anymore.

Jenny Ryce  45:24

I don't know who needs to hear that. But if you're listening right now, and that hits you in the gut, your heart, you have chills going from your toes to the top of your skull. That is a powerful, powerful awareness. It releases the shackles, it allows your wings to shake free and put air within them. It gives you a chance to rise up and be who you were meant to be. And no apologies, right? 

Dawn Taylor  45:55

None. 

Jenny Ryce  45:56

None. I love it. So we're getting close to needing to sign off. Like I said, this episode could go for seven days. And...

Dawn Taylor  46:04

Maybe we should just do like quarterly, let's like...

Jenny Ryce  46:08

Yeah, we're gonna keep dropping these. So don't worry, if you guys are loving this, we're gonna keep dropping these what I would really like to make sure in regards to this conversation because there will be other ones. Is there something you wish I asked you that I haven't asked you. 

Dawn Taylor  46:22

You know what someone asked me the other day is if you could go back and take one thing away out of your life. Like if you could go back and change that date of having the aneurysm and stop that, would you? And you know what's interesting is I bounced back and forth with it. There's, I know that the correct answer is absolutely not. It's taught me so much. It's brought me so much, like it's been so amazing. But with that, that's an interesting one for my brain is would I go back and not have the aneurysm. And I don't, and it's I used to always say never because everything I've gone through has brought me to this point and gifted me something. And it's an interesting shift that's happening in me right now where I'm like, I don't know, I think that's the one file I could, like,

Jenny Ryce  47:20

Yeah, if I could do the thing.

Dawn Taylor  47:21

Because I can delete one thing from my past like I'll deal with all the rest of it. But if I could get rid of the aneurysm, and I can't honestly say, I don't know. And that's an interesting one for me right now that that piece is shifting. There's an interesting grieving process that's having to happen right now. Around what do you mean, I have to work for another 20 years? I should be done.

Jenny Ryce  47:50

Right? There's a whole, there's a whole other life waiting for you.

Dawn Taylor  47:53

What do you mean, I have to actually, like, live more, or I have to deal with aging parents, or I have to build relationships now. Like, build closer relationships, and try to find a community in my 40s that most people have built way before. And, you know, like, there's, there's all these pieces that are really, really interesting in my head that I feel like I'm almost having to grieve right now. In a weird way, like with the gift of a whole second life, literally a whole second life, right? Like, because I'm going to live to 118, I decided that's my number. 

Jenny Ryce  48:33

Sweet!

Dawn Taylor  48:34

 I'm making it happen because, hey, I've overcome the statistic. Why not?

Jenny Ryce  48:39

Cells! So you're on the right track!

Dawn Taylor  48:40

I know. I got real good cellular health! You just never know. But yeah, that is an interesting thing. And I don't always know how to explain it to people when I don't react the way that they expect me to or need me to, or I don't respond the same way, or I don't think the same way. And I think a lot of it is that I'm not as complicated as people might think. I'm actually really simple and basic in a lot of ways. Like I'm not dramatic, and I don't want to fight with people. And I don't want to argue with people. And I don't want to, like, I'm actually really incredibly simple in a lot of those things. And so much of that is from the fact that I've overcome a lot.

Jenny Ryce  49:26

So final thoughts. When we, you know, when we think about what we've shared today, what would you love to leave our listeners with?

Dawn Taylor  49:36

We've all had something that's gone on in our lives. We've all had something that has taken something from us. But we also all have things that we've allowed to die because of it. So figure out who you were prior to that death, who you were prior to that trauma moment or that moment that took something to figure out how to get those things back again. Because I think from a place of preservation, we allow parts of us to die. And sometimes it's all about finding those we can live again.

Jenny Ryce  50:10

Amen. It's that who I was before and who I am now moment.

Dawn Taylor  50:14

Yeah. And then how to intermingle them, how to intertwine them, which was one of my big goals this year is I'm finding things that I loved pre-aneurysm and bringing those back in some way, shape or form.

Jenny Ryce  50:29

Love it. Thank you, Dawn, for allowing me to hijack our time together and turn the tables on you and for being such a good sport and being completely authentically vulnerable! I appreciate you greatly for your story, but also for you as a human being. And as an example of what's possible if we are resilient and persevere and reinvent. So thank you so much. For the listeners, dig into what Dawn said. If any of this resonates with you, do not hesitate to reach out if you need support. Dawn is amazing at it. But ask anybody for support, don't do this alone. You do not have to do this alone. So thank you, Dawn, for having me on your show.

Dawn Taylor  51:16

You're welcome?

Jenny Ryce  51:18

I'm gonna pass it back to you!

Dawn Taylor  51:24

I don't know what to say now. How do I like? So thank you so much for hanging out with us today. 

Jenny Ryce  51:29

Yeah! Thanks, Jenny, for being on the show!

Dawn Taylor  51:33

Thanks, Jenny, for hijacking my podcasts today. You're hilarious. And seriously, I'm honoured. I'm honoured to share a small piece of my story, but something that I'm in the middle of right now. That I'm really in the middle of digging, dig into the rubble of it as we speak. So thank you, thank you, thank you. Join us again, in two weeks, for an actual episode that's not me. But also check out the show notes like located at the taylorway.ca For more information for all the contact information, all of that fun stuff. But also, we're gonna post some before and after photos and a few things. I even have some hospital photos, they might be a little graphic, but I do if you are curious what I went through and what that was and some links of where to find the book. If you want one that was signed, you can contact me directly, and I will actually handwrite in it and write you a personal note as well and mail that out to you. Subscribe now on Apple, Spotify or wherever you listen to your podcasts and yeah, let me know what you thought of the show. See you guys in a couple weeks.

Hannah Bailey is Dawn's guest this week, and Hannah is a strong, self-reliant woman who knows what she wants. How did she become embroiled in an extramarital affair that almost triggered a divorce? Hannah lays it all out, the before, during and after, in a raw and authentic fashion.

Hannah explains to Dawn that she has always been a woman who knows what she wants. She elaborates on this statement by telling us about when she met her husband at a friend's wedding. The new couple is married, but the new marriage was rocky, with Hannah’s husband away for significant periods fulfilling his Navy obligations. Hannah fed her emotional needs by establishing a deep and heartfelt friendship with a friend's husband.

Things went awry as this extraordinary friendship turned into an extramarital affair. Hannah details to Dawn how this occurred in increments over time. She also describes the affair's effects on her, her husband, and her boyfriend's life. Dawn is amazed by Hannah's resiliency and resourcefulness when Hannah explains how she ended the affair and salvaged and strengthened her marriage with some help from an unlikely source. This episode proves that sometimes an affair is not the end but can be a source of healing and strength.

About Hannah Bailey

Hannah is a small town woman, who farms and cherishes her family. She is ambitious, unwavering, and resilient.  She is a “Han of All Trades”.

— 

Dawn Taylor - The Taylor Way: website | facebook | instagram | linkedin

Hannah’s Homestead: [email protected] | instagram |  facebook | Hannah’s Homstead Podcast

Episode Transcript

Dawn Taylor 00:09

I am your host Dawn Taylor, and today we are going to be talking to the amazing Hannah Bailey! The topic today is the before, during and after of an affair. I know we're hitting the hard stuff. Before we get started, I just want to tell you a little bit about our guest so that you can be as excited as I am. Hannah is a small-town woman. She farms, cherishes her family; she is ambitious, unwavering, resilient. She also does some personal training, if I remember correctly from our first conversation, but she's also just very raw, real and open about the good, the bad, the ugly, right. The before, during, and after of having an affair, how it's healed. And in an interesting twist. It's your husband's ex-wife that actually helped heal your marriage. So you're gonna have to, like, listen to this episode to hear the whole story around that. But Hannah, I just want to welcome into the show. Welcome.

Hannah Bailey 01:07

Thank you. I'm excited to be here.

Dawn Taylor 01:09

Oh, I am so excited that you're here. I know, when you applied to be on the podcast, and it was talking about, like, the other side of an affair. And we hopped on Zoom and had a quick call. And I was so inspired by your story. In a world where I mean, I don't even know what the percentages are of people that have affairs. But when you have over 50% of couples getting divorced, it's probably a pretty big number. And not many people survive, and not only that, not many people thrive. So let's start with the before. Let's hear your tell your story.

Hannah Bailey 01:47

So before, this is really an odd story, and I giggled because I actually had a new client on my own ask me, oh, how do you meet your husband? And I'm just like, Okay, let me tell you. We met while he was going through a divorce. And we were both in a friend's wedding. And they're actually divorced now, unfortunately. But we were not actually paired up together. I had begged to be because I was like, he's single, I'm single, it'll be great! And our height difference just wasn't cutting it for the wedding party. And so I was like, no, like, that's, that's not going to be where the line gets drawn. I'm going to figure it out. And Micah, my husband and I were actually laughing about this the other night, about how I offered him a drink. And he declined it! And I said I'm still not I'm persistent. And so he had to drive all the bridesmaids back after the wedding. And we got to talking, and these other women were being really, really hard on him about his divorce. And so his first marriage, and so that's where I started to get to know him. And I just kind of ignored it. I didn't pry. I let them kind of like set the negative tone. So I thought, you know, if he wants to talk about it, we'll talk about it later. And then we started, we got back to the house where we're going to have the party, and we played cards against humanity. And we clicked, and I went to the bathroom. And as I was walking back down the hallway, he just grabbed on my face and kissed me. And I was like, oh, okay, so all these like "no's" that I got earlier are a "yes's"! And so after that, it was just kind of, we kind of were inseparable. And at one point over that summer, I said, you know, I don't have time for you. I don't think this is going to work out because there was nothing wrong between us. And so, unfortunately, you know, we didn't talk for about a month. And I found out he was starting to see someone else. And I thought, Okay, now I'm starting to get jealous. You know, we're young, 20s. At that point, and I thought, unacceptable. Like, I am not going to do this. I'm not going to wait and drag my feet. He was about to enlist in the Navy. And so I said, "Okay, let's try again." He goes, "No, I'm about to leave." Like, I am not going with a no. I said, "Look, I did my time in the army like you're going into the Navy. I understand. I know what it's like. Let me support you through this." And about a month before he started signing on the paperwork. And when we got back, got back together. And then we got married the day before he went to sign all the paperwork. I said, if you're gonna do this, I'm going to do this with you. And we knew because I had a daughter. Anyway, I said that we would have to go through court work because to leave states, obviously to follow him along. Like I would respect her dad and everything, and he filed the paperwork and everything he knew he wanted to make sure. And so what ended up happening, my husband went into the Navy, and we went through all the court process, and the judge said, you either stay here and remain the sole custodial parent and the primary parent, or you can hand her over to your ex, and you can follow your husband. And I said no. And so I said, I'm going to remain here in Indiana while he goes to Virginia because that is the closest naval base that he could go to for his job that he was enlisted in. And I'll just be here. You know, I agreed to this. That was that. So that whole first year was really rocky and tumultuous. You know, you're freshly married, you don't know each other really. You knew each other for six months? You know, that sounds absolutely crazy. So it there's no shot number. I hate to say this, but statistically, when it comes to military personnel, there's no shock that this happened. I don't say that to be a number. I don't say that to dismiss what happened. But as we get into the deeper details, like it didn't just happen, because of, you know, being in the military. It didn't happen because of a statistic. So after our one year anniversary, we ended up getting pregnant with my youngest on our anniversary and literally like the day of, and so yeah, I was like so, like on it. I wanted to have another baby. I wanted to give him a baby, his previous marriage, he didn't have any kids. And so that was kind of it. You know, rocky, he really wanted kids. So I was like, oh my god, I just really want to give him a child so bad. Like, he has no resentment, or at least I didn't feel any resentment at the time that I was held back in Indiana. He seemed to be very understanding. However, I went through the pregnancy, it was very lonely. And so we went through it. We got through arguments and stuff. And then, after we had her in July of 2019, he deployed in December of 2019. And if anyone remembers what 2020 was like...it was even...

Dawn Taylor 06:59

Oh, come on! Oh, my goodness!

Hannah Bailey 07:03

even lonelier. So the gym I workout now, I was a client . And I said, Okay, I want to lose all this weight. I was like, I just want to be hot for my husband after he gets off deployment. And I just had a kid like, I was so focused on that. And I was living in a rental. And so struck up conversation with my neighbour. And that's kind of where we got started. And it wasn't a quick thing. Like I'm telling you, when I say it wasn't quick to get, it was something that took at least a year to build up to any kind of physical connection like that. So I don't know if you have any questions. I don't. I don't want to skip over anything. Because... No, no, no, it's... You're good. Keep going! Okay, so this is, this really isn't a story that I've ever told in its entirety. So I had this connection with my neighbour. And we just got to talking political stuff, you know, 2020, all of our thoughts around it. And at the time, his wife was doing my hair. So that's how I knew them like we were friends. And so you know, here I am, with a six, seven-month-old going through this, my husband comes home at this point from deployment, nothing else had happened, nothing had happened. And in general, like it was just all conversation. And so, you know, I'd felt really good about how I was changing and evolving and getting my confidence back. They had... my neighbours had since moved, got a permanent home instead of a rental. And then Micah, my husband and I started looking for a property. So here we are late 2020. And we start looking around for land, like around September, October, November. And then we finally found the farm that we have now. And so we closed on it on January 2, 2021. So we just passed two years last month. But that's when things started to really change. And, you know, at this point, there had been nothing up to that was physical. Everything had just been like receiving comments, you know, as women adjust and change and lose weight and start feeling better and being a little more showy, I guess. And you know, you know how Facebook and Instagram are and everything when you want to show like your best. People notice, and I was feeding into the attention I was getting because it wasn't ever public. I was never getting the comments publicly. It was always in Messenger. And you know, this friend whose husband I had an affair with, she had told me, you know, he just really likes you. He likes your personality. He likes how outspoken you are on all these things. And my husband felt very insecure about me at that point. Like who I was, what I was saying, and how bold I've always been. And I always say like that's rooted in trauma, but that also just made me want to retaliate more. And it just made me resent him for not loving me at the point that I was at and feeding me what I needed as like my human needs and my basic human needs of words of affirmation, even though it was more of like, stroke my ego at that point, like, look at all the...

Dawn Taylor 10:19

No, collect and pause there. Let's pause there. I think this is a huge issue in couples in general. Like, I've talked to so many clients over the years where I'm like, nobody wakes up in the morning. And it's like, I feel like an affair. Right?

Hannah Bailey 10:34

Right. Right. Right yeah

Dawn Taylor 10:35

Right, that's, that's not how it works. Because it's, there's needs that are being met, there's conversations that aren't happening, there's needs that aren't being spoken. And that's such a huge piece of it is, it's not just about even like you're not getting my needs, it's like, I don't even know what my needs are. And I'm not even asking for you to meet my needs.

Hannah Bailey 10:57

Yeah. Well, and also, as I reflect, we still were living in separate states. We and I have tons of Facebook posts documenting our entire marriage because I would say, well, we've spent 200 days together under the same roof or in the same place. It's like, not even in the same house over three years. You know, that's crazy. So I think also, that's where we have a lot of grace, and from my husband with me, and vice versa, in the conversations that we had, as well, because we realize, one we didn't know each other over the whole course of these years. And we both were not being kind to one another, you know, there was a lot of him turning off his phone to avoid conversations that I wanted to have, that he wasn't willing to have. There was a lot of anger, and loneliness and poor coping mechanisms. And so I reflect back, and I realized I was holding a lot over his head over things that were out of his control. But I was hurting. And I can admit that as an adult and say I didn't act accordingly. He couldn't meet my needs that I wanted met anyway because he was in a different state. And you know, I think that's how we've been healing as well. But we'll get to that. So we bought the farm. And that's when things really started to change, which is interesting because now, I was no longer living in the same town as the man that I ended up having an affair with. And we one day, we went to lunch. And he said to me, he goes, as if my wife doesn't walk in, I'll know, it's not a setup. And I made me think, wow, this either has happened before and come to find out, it had not, not with her. She had never had any suspicions. But when you build a foundation, where she had had some insecurities around it, which is she had, you know, expressed those to me, and I did not respect it. And I admit that I know that. So it was eye-opening because he was looking for someone who had respect and communication and was someone that he could trust. And I still consider myself that person for him. Because I will never name him people who know, know, and that's fine, that he has always respected me. And I'll say that as we explain that as we go through this, he which is what I sought after. And I realized that I needed respect. And I needed someone to listen. And so he gave me all of that. And he gave me a lot of compassion. And I had someone asked me if he was my sugar daddy because there was an 19-year age difference, which is funny because I have never asked him for money ever. And I never had to. He never offered it up. It was never about that. There was a lot of chivalry, and you know, things to fill the void of me not having my husband home. And he respected when my goal was home, and would not text me would not talk to me, you know, because I've been very open and public about the comings and goings because a lot of people would want to see my husband, you know, and but it was a two-way street, and they only wanted him to come one way, and so there was...

Dawn Taylor 11:58

Normal.

Hannah Bailey 13:11

He did. It's a very odd way of saying that he respected boundaries and time and space because you don't expect this. You expect an affair to be what you see on dramatic television episodes, and you expect it to be sneaky, and you expect it to be full of drama, and it was not like that at all. So, okay, we had lunch. And as things moved on, it wasn't until that summer of 2021 where things started to get physical. And my husband suspected that something was happening, which is okay. And, like we talked about getting divorced and whatnot, we kind of just let it be. But it didn't really come to a head until 2022. And it's so crazy that we're in 2023 already.

Dawn Taylor 15:31

Right?!

Hannah Bailey 15:33

But, you know, like, looking back, I had my youngest in 2019. And that's when we met. And now, you know, everything closed out in 2022. And that's pretty long-standing for something to lapse. And so, you know, things started to get physical. In the summer of 2022, no, 2021, I'm sorry. And then his wife filed for divorce. And I don't know at what point she found out about me. I would say it was like early fall. And because I had a fitness competition in August of 2021, she cancelled on me, and she said, if this is important to you, you need to find someone else to do this. And you know, I had her booked for a long time. She's the one I trusted with my hair since 2017. And so... I assume she had her suspicions. And there were comments made, but she never voiced them to me, just to him. And he explained them to me. And so, you know, there was, like, there was a lot of respect that he gave me to give me the guidance and protection and support for this because he didn't want anything to affect my day-to-day life. He didn't want me to have drama with having young kids. He respectfully saw himself out of that marriage. And so we just kind of started seeing each other off and on, at that point, because we didn't really know what was going to come of it. You know, I hadn't filed for divorce. He said he didn't want anything serious, which is fine. You know, I get it. We're very, very different points of our lives.

Dawn Taylor 16:00

Yes. So did your husband know what was going on at this point?

Hannah Bailey 17:16

He knew that he was uncomfortable with him. And he had asked me, and I had been in denial. I said, don't ask me again, like, stop. I don't want to talk about anything. So I, he had his suspicions, and he had talked about it. So it was just, I said, just, I want to be left alone. And he would leave me alone, for the most part, about it. So then I spent New Year's 2021 going into 2022 with this man, which is actually my husband's birthday. And so it, like looking at it. I know how insulting I was around a lot of things that I did because it was, again, me hurting, and he was filling the void. And he knew that, and we had communicated that and talked about that. But then things started to get, you know, a little more intense, emotionally, and obviously, I teared up, but it got to the point of okay, well, if you're getting divorced, then what are we? What are we going to do? Like, are we going to date? Because I had asked, I said, you know, I don't know if you're seeing anyone else. Please, if you are, tell me so we can cut this off. Because I just want that respect and... There was one point over that fall that he had considered it and had, and he told me, which is fine. You know, I said I just I want my sexual health to be at its best. Like, I said, he respected that I had young kids and everything. I can't control a man. But the fact that he gave me that respect and dignity, and honesty, I appreciated a lot. And there was a couple of little arguments about that at towards the end, but it closed out, obviously. So we... I want to say we were exclusive. However, it was known enough that we were seeing one another, and there were some fights that he had had through text messages with his ex-wife saying, you know, I know you're seeing Hannah, I'm seeing someone else, all this other stuff, you know, hurt people hurt people. And so it was very painful. You know, someone you spent a decade with who you didn't think would be the one to do that. And he had told me up to that point, like, you never had thought of it. And so I take shame a little bit in that, and I try not to be ashamed because I oddly... Like again, it's an ego thing and a trauma response for me, but I had a lot of pride that I was valued enough that he did that. And I know it's so insulting and degrading, but my need knowing that as a child. I did not get a lot of praise. It filled that void. And so a lot of the things that I feel that people do is our inner child is trying to resolve things and fill needs that were never met that we needed from our parents. And so...

Dawn Taylor 20:16

So 100%.

Hannah Bailey 20:19

So, you know, as we came in at 2022, I am. I still can't believe it's been almost a year now. Things started to get a little more serious. And there was a little bit of drama, but it got dropped pretty quickly. My husband stepped up and nipped it in the bud, thankfully, which is really interesting to say, you know, as your wife's seeing someone else, and you're still married, and you hadn't even filed for divorce yet. You're saying, like, no one's gonna disrespect you while you're doing whatever you're doing and trying to work out. And so I

Dawn Taylor 20:54

That's amazing. Just so I know, that's really amazing on his part. That, I mean, people listening are probably like, what the hell? Why is he okay with this? But I remember talking to a friend years ago, and there had been a an affair situation in her marriage. And I remember her saying, like her husband, I was talking to her husband about it because they overcame it. And he's like, as much as I was mad or angry or hurt, or any of those things. Like I still had to own the fact that I was a 50% of the problem or more.

Hannah Bailey 21:30

Yeah, yeah, it was a great. Yeah. And I it was, I wish I could say that that was my wake up call that this man had unconditional. My husband had unconditional love for me. But it still wasn't because what the way he reacted, and we've talked about it, since he did it in spite of me and in spite of someone else. And so we have since worked through that, but it would, and we've since actually had the olive branch extended by that person, which I'll share towards the end, too. But it kind of everything just came full circle for all of us to heal. And I reflect back again, and I say, you know, we were just young and dumb. And I can't say that completely. Because, you know, I was 26-27 Going into this. And it just, it was a huge chunk of my life, too. Because you know, as a young adult, and you're trying to navigate marriage that you don't even really have, and you're trying to raise kids and start a life in a new home. You know you want someone there to meet the needs that you're wanted and desired and appreciated and all these things. So you know, things started to ramp up and early winter spring 2022. And I got in a car accident on April 1st last year, and I call it my Alive Day. And because I totaled my truck, I pinged ponged between two guard rails, like I had the I had a I have a utility sale truck. It's a V8 Titan, and on the back, it had doors. And these doors actually detached from the truck and flew off the side of the guardrail at the top of a bridge and went down towards train tracks. How I did not flip my truck is beyond me because it was ice. And I just pinged ponged, and I literally had no scrapes, no scratches, nothing like totally fine. So that's actually the day that I told my husband that someone was considering blackmailing me about this. And I came clean about absolutely everything. And he said I'm coming home. Whatever is going on, we'll figure it out. This was April 1, like, can you imagine? Like, like, I don't know what his original thoughts were. Maybe he thought it was a joke. I don't know. But I was out working. I was like, I need you because I'm stressed. And I don't know what to do. Because the man I was seeing, obviously, you know, he's not just going to come in. My girls had seen him in passing, but they didn't know. They just knew him as like our old neighbour and someone who had helped my truck before when it died, like just little things, and so nothing's serious. And so. So my husband comes home, and my birthday is in May. And I told him I was like, we have birthday plans. So this man-made amazing birthday plans for me. And I think this is also one of those points where he realized, like, he cared a lot about me. So we spent a whole weekend together. My husband basically gifted this to me, and he was like, this is it like I will let you have this weekend. And if you don't figure it out, if this isn't enough, then we'll follow through with the divorce. And I said, Okay. And so I just completely disconnected from my phone and spent this weekend with this man. And the for the first night, we went out, and we tried so many different bars. And I got to, I don't. You know, as a mom, who was basically a single mom for four years, while your husband's gone like you don't have childcare, you don't have help, you don't get to do things. And so I appreciate my husband a lot for letting me have that. And I got to go out. And we tried so many fun places. I realized also like, I'm a mom, and I'm tired. I realized, okay, this is great and fun, but like once in a blue moon, Right? So we did that the first night. And then, the next morning, he made me biscuits and gravy, which is my favourite breakfast. And then...

Dawn Taylor 25:54

So you're like, I'd rather I've just had a really long nap at home.

Hannah Bailey 25:57

Such a southern thing, that is not a Canada thing! Just saying. Yeah, and then that wasn't... so Saturday, we went and we ended up. He had dinner reservations for us. And during the day we went, got checked into the hotel. And then we went to a casino because I've never been so like, I got to do just things I've never been able to do. And so that was fun. He said, you know, this is how much money I brought. Whatever we win, you can take home and I ended up buying a cow with it.

Dawn Taylor 26:41

Oh, that's awesome!

Hannah Bailey 26:43

So that was great. And then after dinner, we went to the Melting Pot, another one of my favourite places. And so then after that, we went to this like pizza place, and you know, as if we're not stuffed already trying out drinks and breweries, and we went to a cigar bar that was really fun too, you know, just relaxed, and you know, but at that night, when we got back to the hotel, we actually just sat in the shower as like the waters running down. And I just started sobbing because I knew that was basically it. And I don't know. I don't remember the full conversation. Obviously, I was like pretty drunk. And but I do remember asking, you know, like, what's going to happen? Like, what's next? And he said, well, if I moved in, I said, are you going to do that? Would you want to, and he goes, I'm not. And I knew what I was asking was irrational anyway. Because we are two very different... Actually, two people that are very much the same. But he is very adamant about not raising young kids again. And I respect that. And you know, he actually is very similar to my own father. He's had three failed marriages. And he also realizes, like, one, we will not be getting married. And two said... like you said, like, people are 50/50. And there's a common denominator in these variables. And so it was like, every time I reflect back in, like, I've since gone through and like deleted a lot of messages and everything, you know, as we're going through it. He's been nothing but kind and genuine and honest with me through the whole process. And, you know, we've had a lot of good memories. You know, we once went and rode scooters in downtown Indianapolis. You know, these are just people I'm like, do a 20, 20, to 27-year-olds do this? I don't know. Is it really something that 20-year-olds do?

Dawn Taylor 28:36

Yeah?

Hannah Bailey 28:37

It just fun things. And that's what I was. It was just it was fun. And he told me like he wanted it to be fun and light and not stressful and not something that brought me pain. And there were he brought me some of the greatest people into my life to that are still friends with me. That knew, and they have had no judgment. They've come out and help on the farm. And they still look after me. And just to bring me the kindest loving friends, too. I literally will never be able to tell him thank you for just those times and who he brought into my life because you can't just find like great people to always rely on. I thanked him so many times, and he's... Like, I don't have any communication with him. I haven't, for a long time. And it's sad because, you know, someone who is always, you know, he actually is the one who picked up my truck when it was done at the body shop, and it just needed a tire. He was like, you know what the frame is bent, but it's okay. And he brought it back to me. And it's, he never asked for anything. And I think he, I don't know what he wanted. We never talked about it, you know, like, how do you get a macho man to talk about his...

Dawn Taylor 30:44

They don't, yeah.

Hannah Bailey 30:45

But the amount of praise and compliments that I got were to last a lifetime, and belief in me that he had, it was very refreshing. And I, that's what I sought. That's what I needed. And then everything else came after. And I think a lot of people think that these are just angsty things that happen, and they're not, you know, I there, I'm sure that there are people that just like meet someone at a bar, you know, like the stereotypical movie drama, but it was not like, at all. And I wish I could say that I saw it coming. But I didn't.  And I really appreciate the fact that he always told me like just say when and it's done. And, you know, one time he told me when it, and he said when so I always say that this was projected. When this is over, I lose too. And so, and I don't see myself as someone who is a chunk of someone's life that they lose. And so it was hard to cut it off. Because there was so much that I was getting that wasn't physical that I needed. I just needed confirmation and affirmation. And although he never obviously told me he loved me, I do consider that some unconditional love. Because when it did, and he said go back to your husband and fix things. You have a young family.

Dawn Taylor 32:29

Yeah.

Hannah Bailey 32:30

And a lot of people are selfish, and they wouldn't care.

Dawn Taylor 32:35

No, because their needs are being met. Right?

Hannah Bailey 32:38

Right.

Dawn Taylor 32:38

Often for a man, it's a physical, and for a woman, it's an emotional affair.

Hannah Bailey 32:44

Yeah. Yeah. I don't think that it was just physical for him because there was never any pressure. For me. It was very comforting just to spend time. He was very much a quality-time person. And so that was, it was nice, because, you know, we talked about things, we had a lot of like theological talks. And I think having someone who will dive deeper in a conversation with you than just the surface-level stuff is another reason why I was brought around a lot of friends. And people got to know me. And they knew my stance, they knew where who I was to him with, without any titles being necessary, you know, the respect and was, it was a one of those things that just doesn't always happen. It's not always one of those clean-cut things.

Dawn Taylor 33:33

Never clean cut! People wish it was!

Hannah Bailey 33:38

Right!

Dawn Taylor 33:38

So let's fast forward a little bit. You knew the relationship had to end it wasn't gonna go where it needed to be. Now, how do you fix your marriage?

Hannah Bailey 33:49

So my husba-

Dawn Taylor 33:50

How do you heal that?

Hannah Bailey 33:52

My, so what's funny is it today is the anniversary of the day that I reached out to my husband's first wife, she had also had an affair, and then it produced a child that wasn't his. And they just went separate ways. At that point, there was no resolution for them, especially with the dad wanting to be involved. And I understand that I respect both of the way that they went about it. I reached out to the first wife because there were things that I hadn't question more. At first, it was really to justify my actions and to have someone relate to me and kind of be on my team. Because I didn't know where things are going to go!

Dawn Taylor 34:31

interesting! Yeah!

Hannah Bailey 34:33

So you know, I reached out to her she was very reluctant to talk to me at first. Shockingly enough, I reached out to her through my oldest daughter's dad because they had tried to almost bonded over the fact that we were getting my husband I got together, and so they were talking about the kind of person my husband was so that my ex would feel comfortable with our daughter. So it's very interesting to have like this square of what I called chaos at the time. And communication.

Dawn Taylor 35:08

Yeah.

Hannah Bailey 35:09

I did speak to the ex, wife. And we are now friends. Actually, we actually met today, a year ago. And she helped me like this huge basket of gifts at work. And it was impressive. And so I had reached out to her. And, you know, she said, I support you either way that this goes, but I think he will forgive you, and things will move forward. You know, everyone has... there's two stories, obviously, there his. There's his and hers. But then there's also the truth. And so there was a middle ground that I had to find with both of them. And then there was also a middle ground she had to find with me, as well, as, like, things closed out, my husband had actually left home again, which is justifiable, I understand, like, needing space. And during this time, I actually did a couple of self-development courses. And back in March of 2022, I had put myself in therapy just because I was like, you know what, I'm just gonna do it. There's no one's telling me to do, but I need it. And I know I need it. And it was one of the greatest experiences ever. I stuck with that therapist for March through October. And which is actually October is about the point in November 1st is technically mine and my husband's anniversary of when we got married and eloped. But I...It was a really good turning point for how I communicated with my husband, the struggles we were seeing, and how to soften my tone because I was I didn't realize how much resentment I was holding from four years of being alone. Up to that point, you know, most people think an affair is going to happen, you know, right? When you find out, oh, well, you can't move. But I had held on and held on and held on, and I... it just boiled over. And so my husband, you know, obviously accepted my apology. But when I begged him to come home. He, it was a Saturday. And I was like talking about how I'd been praying and praying and praying and like, I've been reading the Bible and everything. And because he was raised Pentecostal apostolic, and I was not raised in a church, I'm a cop's daughter, like, to a tee. Right? So you know, stereotypes. But I told him, and he didn't believe me. And he said that he was going to go to church that Sunday with his parents. And he would consider maybe coming back out the next day, just to spend a couple hours at home and with our youngest. And then the next day, Sunday, he comes in. And he said you will never guess what the sermon was. The message was today. And I was shocked because it was, you're going to have all these storms in your life. And you have to continue to row through them. If you have any type of faith. You need to row through it. And you will get to the other side. And his coworker is a former addict. And he told him, he goes Micah, you both had to fall apart and nearly lose not just everything with each other. But everything that you've built, even though you were building it separately, to come back together. And so he knows you're going to have to trust that she's going to follow through, like, there's a reason that was the message for today. You know, there's been a lot of times since then that things have oddly happened. And my husband's like, I just don't understand why that's the message. And he gets a little resilient and hesitant, and the resiliency is there. But he gets defiant about it. One time I told him if you don't trust me, God is going to convict you. You know, I was kind of being blasphemous and hateful, but I said he's going to, you're going to be convicted of it at some point. And he goes, you don't need to speak for God. And this is before Thanksgiving. So between our anniversary of him of things like really closing out, and he's never prayed outwardly, I begged him over and over. I'm like, please pray with me. Pray over our meals and like, let's move forward, let's be renewed, and he was adamant about never praying. He was. I have never prayed in my 30 years of life in front of anyone.

Dawn Taylor 39:52

Wow!

Hannah Bailey 39:53

Yeah, he was. I will not start because I think it's showy. And I was like, okay, like I was crying because we were going to my family's Thanksgiving. And then, on Thanksgiving Day, we went to his parents house. And his dad goes, hey, Micah, we want you to, like, I don't have much contact with his parents whatsoever. Because of this whole situation, you know, and like, keeping everyone at arm's length, like, I told him, I want us to really be renewed. But on our terms, no one intervening, No one putting words in everyone's ears or like a bug and trying to sway one way or the other. I said I want to. I want a whole year just me and you to fix this. And if it doesn't work, it doesn't work. And then you can go back and say, they're right, it's fine. They can have their conversations, then whatever. So it's Thanksgiving Day, his dad said, your mom really wants you to pray over dinner. And he looks at me with this look of anger. And I'm over here trying not to jump out of my skin in excitement. Because I had not talked to his mom. And on the way home. He's like, Did you say something? I said, no, I said, I was like really ready to just feel I was like, oh my gosh, its happening! It was two weeks before I plead, you know, you're going to feel conflicted at some point. And I had waited and waited. And I didn't argue with him. I'm just like, God, pull through for me right now, please. Um, he did pray. Reluctantly. And, you know, then Christmas rolls around. And there are family members who really don't like either of us. They don't, they actually stated that they don't want to be around me if I'm at any family functions, and I said that's fine. I understand.

Dawn Taylor 41:54

Yeah.

Hannah Bailey 41:56

I said Micah, you can go by yourself with the girls. I'm not going to go. And he told them. If Hannah's not invited, I'm not going. This is a boundary that I'm so, just proud of and impressed with because these are his family members, not mine. And these are people who I told him for years, you know, they're not coming to visit you. They're not calling you. While you're in the Navy, they didn't reach out to you after deployment. I scheduled, you know, events, welcome home events, like going away events whenever you deployed when you enlisted when you were home because they hadn't seen you. And I would give them three months notice because he has to submit time off, you know, it's not like a quick thing. And people wouldn't show up. And so he would just write it off as it is what it is at the time. And now he sees the truth, unfortunately, and we do have some family members that have asked to see me and him. He's gone to one outing. But he's been really firm. And that was something another thing like in our marriage. Initially, I was like that no one's respecting our boundaries as married people. You know, we were the only people that don't live. We are the only family members that don't live in the same city, within a couple miles of each other. We're doing our own thing. We don't ask for money. And we're just really trying to put down our roots. And I think dependency is something that there's a struggle over there. And I can't speak for everyone, but he has really let go and opened up and really respected our marriage and family. And that was something that I didn't see before in the first four years because you know, he's coming home, I'm trying to accommodate to everyone, and then people would ask him, hey, come see us. And he would accommodate to them. And it was very insulting, you know, and that's, I think that you know, plays another factor of respect my time and space, really, I mean, I don't really have the right words for it, but like respect, what we can give, and stop asking for everyone to accommodate to you. And he would bend over backwards. And it was actually an insult to me because it's like, you know, I'm his wife, we have the kids, and you're asking more of his time instead of saying, wow, you haven't seen your family and three months,, six months, I hope you guys have the best time. And so, you know, that played a huge part. And in all of this, I'm not gonna blame anyone because, you know, my actions or my actions, but there's been a lot of growth. And it's, I was giggling with the first wife about how you know how we came to be. She has always encouraged us. She stayed in contact with me fairly, talk once a day. I've told like,

Dawn Taylor 45:01

Wow!

Hannah Bailey 45:02

Yeah, she has five kids under the age of seven. It's impressive. Like she's got.

Dawn Taylor 45:07

Oh, my goodness! Yeah!

Hannah Bailey 45:12

it's incredible. There's been a lot of forgiveness and healing and so much more communication and conversation.

Dawn Taylor 45:21

Yeah.

Hannah Bailey 45:22

I feel like my needs are met. Obviously, he's home now full-time, well, full-time. You know other than work, but it's very different. I say, you know, like, the next five years are going to be very different. The first five years were a trial. But it's not everyone's going to heal from it. It takes a lot of self-reflection and transparency. There's a lot of human flaws in this. And room for error, too, you know, things are going to just happen, and they're never going to happen the way that you think that they're going to happen. You know, an affair is not an end all be all, either. And I think a lot of people see it as this, like, just horrible, horrible thing. And it can be, or if you have the acknowledgment of your own flaws and failures, and where you're struggling, I think there's a lot of grace. And it's so hard to come up with the right words because there's really no way to put this into words for me of how emotional it can be and reviving. And I sound so bad sometimes because I'm going to be like, she doesn't care. And that's not the case. I've had to do a lot of apologizing. I care. I actually care a lot about this. I care a lot about the man that it happened with. He's been nothing but what I consider an angel. Obviously, he did not respect my husband because it wouldn't have happened if he did. And he said, but he respected me enough to say, you know what, this is what's best for you guys. And it's not like this thing that I'm just going to do until my girls, you know, grow up. I just I have no contact with this man. He said I don't want to be a temptation for you. So I'm going to block your conver-, like our phone numbers from each other. And that was it. I don't know. I don't know where he is anymore. I know, he moved. That's all I know. But it is there's a lot of respect that's come out of this and well wishes that this is something that we grow and heal from, and obviously there's always going to be like a twinge I, that my husband is going to think naturally, you know, okay, well. What about, I don't know, like, are the contractors gonna try something? You know, things like that, as we have people in and out working on the farm. But I can't, I all I can say is that the conversation that we've had, every single day, day in and day out, is full of nothing but love between my husband and I. I now look forward to getting up at 5am to make him breakfast and send him off to work. And I look forward to when he comes home. I don't feel any sense of anger towards me. We, the person who was who I thought was going to blackmail me, has since gifted us a very, very big connection to getting free horse stalls. And finishing up our barn. He this, he literally was doing contract work for someone about 45 minutes south of us. And the guy asked if we if he knew someone who could use them, and...

Dawn Taylor 48:53

Yeah.

Hannah Bailey 48:54

Offer them up to us. And it was incredible. And we just got it all started and almost done.

Dawn Taylor 49:01

Amazing.

Hannah Bailey 49:02

So you know someone who I, who had said some negative, hateful things to me. And I thought it was going to try and run my name through the mud and make me out to be this horrible person really came back around full circle with kindness and grace. And a lot of people have assumed what's happened, but they don't understand the human needs that were met. They don't understand that I'm human. They, I think, also it breeds fear that, oh my god, if this.

Dawn Taylor 50:23

Right? Like, it's not that at all. But it's, every situation in life is a gift. Whether it's a positive or negative, or good or bad, it's always a gift. And it's like, what are you gonna do with it? That's the biggest! That is the biggest one. I know we have talked about that earlier. Right, is judgment comes from place of fear.

Hannah Bailey 50:35

Right.

Dawn Taylor 50:35

Always. And I think that anyone who's listening to this today, they can judge. Let them judge. If that's what they need to do because it makes them feel safe, let them judge but I hope that anyone listening today is also going Holy Cow. You never know what's going on in someone's life. You never know the behind the scenes situation. You don't know what led them to that point. Right? That actually caused that to happen that caused the situation. But also the gift that can come out of it. Right? I'm not saying, like, everybody go have an affair. It's gonna change your marriage and life.

Hannah Bailey 50:35

Yeah. Exactly, you know, and I think because, like, I'm a child that went a lot. I'm not a child, but I am a child of someone who it witnessed it. And I witnessed the ugly side growing up. I was adamant, I was like, you know, I, this, I don't want this to happen to me. And then, honestly, when it did, I realized it doesn't make me any less of a person if I'm going to actually change the path that it goes because a lot of people will just sit and simmer and allow it to fester and know more drama, and let it define them. You know, I have a mentor, coach that helps me with a lot of business stuff. And he also had an affair, and he has this beautiful wife and family now and businesses and real estate. And it's incredible because you know, I would have never, ever thought of that had happened. And when I went to him about it, he said, you know what, let me... He laid it all out for me. And I was just in shock because this man is a who I find to be so holy and righteous and inspiring and helpful, plays in the church band, it's just, you come to find that everyone has a testimony, you know, there are people that are going to judge addicts, you know, it's just, it's sad, because there are people that are using something to lean on to fill a void, and that man was filling the void for me. And he knew that he knew that, and I don't think he saw me as vulnerable. Because I didn't feel vulnerable, I was able to open up femininely and walk amongst him without feeling like I had to be overpowering. You know, like I said earlier, I you know, I felt very overconfident my ego, my I made my husband insecure because I was compensating or trying to compensate for what he wasn't doing for me. I wanted the attention and love and I wanted to be the one that led. But then when I met someone who would lead me and I didn't have to lift the finger, I didn't have to ask for anything. It was so refreshing. Now my husband is that man, but it took him nearly losing me to step up and put his foot down in a lot of other areas of his life, not just in our marriage. And so you know why he didn't do it with his first marriage? I don't know. That's not up for me to decide. But it worked out how it worked out. Because now I have another great friend with his wife like her his first wife and I'm like, Sister Wives. That has sucked me in lately... No, but it really does go to show like you learned from everything. Absolutely. Everything. I started to hate myself at first for it. And then I realized, like, if I'm vulnerable and honest about it, no one can hold it over my head. And I can I won't. I won't deteriorate from this. You know, the this is not something that is an end all be all. This doesn't mean I'm less worthy of being successful. This doesn't mean I'm less worthy of love. This just means that I'm human. And I wouldn't even the sad thing is like I wouldn't call it a mistake. Because a mistake would be literally losing absolutely everything. And there's been so much good that has come out of this that I would have never been able to dream up for myself. And it's not something that I condone, to say the least. Because there's a lot of emotions in it and you will feel lost more times than not until you fix yourself there. I don't know I it's really hard to to like, get it all out.

Dawn Taylor 53:10

It's okay. It's okay. I think you've said everything in the most... That is quite the show! Yes! Yes. I could not do that!I could not do that. Just saying

Hannah Bailey 53:45

I think...

Dawn Taylor 54:07

In the most real way, in the most real way. And what I mean by that is, like you said, you're not condoning it, but you're human. And I think so many people hold so much shame around things that they've done, whether it's an affair or addiction, or just life mistakes that we've made, right. And we are all just humans trying to human every day just a little bit better. And I just wanted to thank you. Thank you, Hannah, for being so vulnerable, for opening up for talking about it for allowing us to see the inside of it, but also for feeling so inspired, that if someone has gone through this, or they're going through it, that they could fix their marriage. They can heal it that it can be better than ever in the end. Because I think we're all so scared of this happening in our lives, that we don't want to believe it could ever happen to us.

Hannah Bailey 56:01

Right.

Dawn Taylor 56:02

Right. We don't want to believe that it could be us. But knowing if it did, we could overcome it too.

Hannah Bailey 56:08

Right. Yeah.

Dawn Taylor 56:09

Right. And we could, we could figure out how to heal our marriages, fix our marriages, but also do the work to go. Okay, wait. It's not just their fault. It's not all them that caused it, right. Like it was, there were three parties involved. Right? And so much of that is coming from that trauma place.

Hannah Bailey 56:30

Yeah.

Dawn Taylor 56:30

Is there any last words of advice you want to give or one last thing you'd like to say to our listeners?

Hannah Bailey 56:36

it is very hard to apologize to your husband. But when you start apologizing, and or any spouse really for me, my husband, but they'll start apologizing to you, as well. And I it really starts a snowball effect of healing. Because I don't think he ever expected an apology out of me. He never got one when I would be mean and hateful and pick fights. And so when I changed my actions, and I really, I didn't force it, like I wasn't being dramatic. I wasn't playing into the emotions. I just, I took it as action and logic at that point, in the first initial phase, and showed him I am sorry, and then I moved on to my actions of showing that, and I followed through, it got easier. And he started apologizing for things, things started moving in his head of wow of this. I did this to her when I stopped yelling and our fights when I stopped cussing in our fights. And I just said, Okay, I understand. And I let it, and I actually talked to him. And I let him explain himself. And I didn't engage. Things got so much easier.

Dawn Taylor 57:59

That's amazing. Thank you, again, so much for hanging out with us today. If you guys want to bind Hannah and connect with her, follow her, her homestead, her farm, all of her amazing things that she's doing in life. Please check out the show notes. I hope that something you heard today hits home that, has shifted something in you, and prove that you're not alone and that you can fight for yourself a little bit harder. Join us again in two weeks for another amazing topic. And please tell your friends, more people that feel understood, always the better. Subscribe now on Apple, Spotify or wherever you listen to your podcasts. And if you'd love the show, it would mean the world if you left a rating and a review. And yeah, show notes at the taylorway.ca for more information and all of the contact stuff if you do want to connect

Dawn talks to her guest Dallas Wiebe this week. He is a dedicated husband, a father, and a talented mechanic who built a successful automotive business. This all changed when his father, while dying, couldn’t stop thinking about work, about being helpful. Dallas became aware that he saw things in his father that he did not want to see in himself. He contacted Dawn to get help with the issue.

Dallas and Dawn discuss their shared background of coming from a Mennonite culture and how the ideals of the Mennonite people may have influenced their internal processes. Dawn then asks her guest to illustrate some of these internal processes, these hidden rules, and how they might have affected his life. She asks him how they could have negatively impacted relations with his people, how he processes emotion and how they altered how he conducted day-to-day business.

In this episode, Dawn and her guest Dallas identify the moment of Dallas’ wake-up call, explore his varied memories of his father, discuss the good and bad of the hidden rules that Dallas grew up with, and detail what healthy boundaries look like. Dallas shares much personal insight on these topics with Dawn. His story will resonate with anyone trying to assert their boundaries and sense of self.

About Dallas Wiebe

Dallas Wiebe is a proud husband, caring father, motivated church leader, and successful business owner. God gave Dallas a unique combination of a sensitive soul and a desire to run straight at the scary. God has given him a heart for others who have been crushed by trying to live with a version of God that has removed the power to change and only leaves hopeless guilt.

— 

Dawn Taylor - The Taylor Way: website | facebook | instagram | linkedin

Dallas Wiebe - Innovation Autoworks LTD: [email protected] |  facebook

Episode Transcript

Dawn Taylor 00:09

I am your host Dawn Taylor and today we're going to talk to the amazing Dallas Weibe. So today we're gonna be talking about the unconscious rules for life. You know, you know those ones that we got from our childhoods, but we don't even think about or even realize they're there. And that when we finally uncover them realize how much harm they can actually be causing how much damage they've caused, and relationships in our lives, and all of the rest. But before we get started, I want to tell you a little bit about our guests, so you can be as excited as I am. Dallas is a dad, he's a husband of a million years, yes, actually a million years. Okay, maybe 24! He owns an amazing automotive repair business that keeps him way too busy. He's all about fast cars, horse power, and his passionate love for God. He's an incredible Christian man who's very dedicated to his church. And he has this amazing, unique combination of a sensitive soul, but also a desire to run right into the scary. And him and I've spent, we've spent a bit of time talking about running into the scary in the past. So Dallas was run into a little bit of that scary right now. Welcome to the show!

Dallas Wiebe 01:17

Thank you so much, Dawn. It's good to talk to you. And and yeah, this is, for me, it's kind of like running straight at something I'm scared of. So let's do this. Let's have this chat.

Dawn Taylor 01:30

So Dallas applied to be on my podcast coming from and yes, he's given me permission to talk about this, a situation in his life where his dad passed away a few years ago. And when it happened, it jarred something in him, it jarred something major in him that I don't think anyone saw coming, himself included. And when he reached out to me to chat one day he was at a pretty low point, Dallas, you want to talk a little bit about that? What brought you to even finding out that you had some unconscious rules?

Dallas Wiebe 02:02

Well, the thing about unconscious rules is you don't all you have them.

Dawn Taylor 02:06

Right?!

Dallas Wiebe 02:07

Yeah. So it doesn't look like you have unconscious rules, it looks like the world doesn't make sense. It looks like why can't I do the things I normally do and have this all worked out. So for me, the crisis in my life was watching my dad die by watching him die in a way that I thought. I thought somehow because it was, it was a, you know, an illness that took him out over eight months or so. But I thought somehow, it would go different. I thought there would be that, you know, people get this idea that if someone dies quickly, they didn't get to say goodbye properly? So if you have time, you will get to like, share those things that need to be shared and have that connection that you would hope you'd have with someone who he won't get to see anymore. And just the way it went down for him I, we didn't get that chance to connect. It was you know, how to beat the cancer, how to do this, how to do that. And so the ability to get to know who he was better at the end was exchanged for getting to know someone who was just scared, and dying. And I couldn't connect with him. So that made me think about how much I was like him in my wiring and my thinking, and how much of that wiring and thinking and you know, hard rules for life. How much of that in me could still change? So you're looking, I'm looking at my life through this. What I'm doing is not working lens. But why can't I see it? Why can't I see a way out of this? And I've just used to think about things. So I just like use what I know what I understand digging hard, and just to work my way through problems. But what I've run into and this will be talked about, we started working together as he kind of pointed at these things where I couldn't just buckle down, pull myself up on my bootstraps, and lean harder into something and fix it. Because the method that I was applying, my system was flawed. And I couldn't see it because I had rules they have this basic structure of how I attack problems, these rules that made it impossible for just working harder to solve it. Just being more stubborn, more gristly or whatever it is. Right? And somehow so it's little stuff. I mean, I'm gonna say something stupid, but maybe it'll help drive it home. When you're a fussy Mennonite-

Dawn Taylor 04:53

Okay, so let's pause for a second and describe that to people because like you and I, you and I come from a Mennonite background. And I often get asked like, what is that a Hutterite? And it's like, no, not really it- can you explain to listeners what was your childhood, like in that way? Like, when you explain Mennonite to someone, what does that mean to you? Like, how did that create your identity?

Dallas Wiebe 05:21

That's very different, like, so. My dad grew up until his teen years as like a practicing Mennonite, which is mostly just really very religious. But there was a whole bunch of really structural things about what's important, and what's not important. And so, when I say fussy, Mennonite, I kind of just mean, we grew up where you keep very good care of your stuff. Oh, yeah, very, very hard working. And but so you don't waste anything. You're very careful with your money.

Dawn Taylor 06:00

Very frugal.

Dallas Wiebe 06:01

Frugal is a nice word for it.

Dawn Taylor 06:03

Cheap is the other word for it.

Dallas Wiebe 06:07

Cheap, is a less happy word for it. You stretch every dollar. So it doesn't even mean you're broke. Most Mennonites are hardworking people and they have a reasonable income.

Dawn Taylor 06:18

100% They often have good income.

Dallas Wiebe 06:20

Yeah. But everything has to go as far as possible. And so good planners, good long term thinkers, but lots of times, everything gets sacrificed to the long term plan. So I wouldn't, because we weren't, like I never grew up as a practicing Mennonite in some colony somewhere. That's the old school roots of where it came from. But there's these leftovers. So those things I talked about, that's kind of the leftovers, I remember getting into my grandpa's car. And there's very distinct directions about where you put your feet. And where you where you've knocked the dirt off your feet. And, when you're driving the feet they didn't leave the floormat. And like there's, there's good care for stuff. But then there's, the... Mennonite method is usually just a little bit more. And this isn't just Mennonite, this is like, my family as well, right?

Dawn Taylor 07:11

It's, I'm laughing because I often say like, take those rules. And this, this totally ties into this, like invisible rules we have in ourselves, because like, as I work with clients that have like, Eastern European culture, or you like Ukrainian or Iranian, or like from Iran, or like, it doesn't matter where like, every culture has its own, almost set of standards and guidelines that they run by. And Mennonites have their own. And it's like, as a woman like your, the expectations put on you is like incredibly high. But strange. Like they aren't modern.

Dallas Wiebe 07:54

No.

Dawn Taylor 07:54

It's not modern rules. But think of what Dallas just said based on the car like just like the 20 rules of driving grandpa's car. They use that in everything from like, how you set the table to how you eat to how you run your business, like actions equal worth is like a big belief. Right? It's... there's some really interesting rules.

Dallas Wiebe 08:16

Yeah. And so Mennonite men, like, in my family, especially. But I can see that the family tree, what you what you do for a living. The way you work is really important, right?

Dawn Taylor 08:29

Oh, big time!

Dallas Wiebe 08:30

That's a leftover in lots of people's history. Like that's true there.

Dawn Taylor 08:33

Yeah.

Dallas Wiebe 08:34

But so if you were hard working, respectable Mennonite man, and you go to work and you take a lot of pride in it. You put up with a lot of pain. You may have one or two heart attacks at work. But as long as one arm still works, you should still go to work, you know,

Dawn Taylor 08:49

Just put a bandaid on it.

Dallas Wiebe 08:50

Yeah, just put a bandaid on it!

Dawn Taylor 08:53

Just put a bandaid on it.

Dallas Wiebe 08:54

It's not unique to the Mennonite culture like that thinking. But that was very strong there. So for example, when I was watching my dad, when he was sick, he looked out the window and was wanting to drive the truck that was delivering the goods because he was a truck driver. And for him, he really missed being able to work. That was just... he knew that world. It had an expected response for his input. It was predictable, and it felt right for him. So for him to look out the window and see just the delivery truck, and he drove big rigs and all this stuff. But he wanted that he wanted to go back to that again. And so it was a little weird to be sitting there with him. Wanting to have a heart-to-heart conversation, but not being able to really get that out. And yet he was in his pain and in his own mourning, looking at the end of his life. He wasn't able to have the heart-to-heart conversation. But he wanted to drive that truck. Right. And so that was hard. That was a bit of a weird thing for me. It's like there was so much there was so much good about him, he was he was the kindest man, you've met, one of my friends said-

Dawn Taylor 10:05

Your dad was amazing.

Dallas Wiebe 10:06

You could feel his kindness come in the door with it. You know? So he was a very kind man. But I think some in some ways, these unconscious rules that I'm talking about. They were, he was working with them. But he didn't know he was. So he was stuck with the truck was too dirty. It had to be washed. Even if it was minus two outside. Like, in some ways, he was a bit of a slave to some of those rules without understanding that they were pushing them around. And I saw that in me. So that was that was kind of the epiphany of, you know the grief of watching your dad die. It's the first real close person to me that died. It rips you open a bit raw, you start analyzing things, you start checking into life, what matters and that's pretty typical. And but for me that the things that I saw in him that didn't work out as well, as I'd hoped were in me, I seen those rules in me. I've seen that the inability to leave a problem half solved and have any peace, right, you have to go get the finish it, you have to when you can't let go, we have to, and the ability to go to a family function and not get caught up in problem solving something like. You know, in a way, we enjoyed it, because there was three boys and almost every family function, and my wife didn't enjoy it that much when we did this. We get suckered into it, whether it was solving some app problem on a phone or fixing a hot water tank, there was always like, you couldn't just sit around. And we even went camping together. Beautiful times camping together. But-

Dawn Taylor 11:44

Oh, rest is for the wicked!

Dallas Wiebe 11:46

Yeah, so but even then-

Dawn Taylor 11:48

There's a line from my childhood.

Dallas Wiebe 11:52

But it also was just kind of like therapy, if you kept moving, and you kept working. It just felt right. You know. So I had to start looking at my ability to leave something dirty, to leave something unfinished, to... and obviously not everybody needs to be encouraged in this direction. Like, it depends on what your rules are inside. Some people are very messy. But my thing was, I kind of felt wrong, I didn't feel right, to leave certain things or to not finish something or to I couldn't let go. So as a mechanic, you know, I tend to sway toward the technical side. So I'm problem solving computer related diagnostic issues with cars, but I couldn't let go, like so I'd be digging and digging. And you know, I'm gonna have to solve this, I'm gonna win, I'm gonna win. And what my, what the problem needed. And what my brain needed was to let go for a bit back off, go get some different perspectives, talk to some different people don't be so egotistical about it that I have to solve it all. Let it rest, sometimes an idea comes back at you something fender let cool a little bit, right. So-

Dawn Taylor 12:59

Yeah.

Dallas Wiebe 12:59

in that in that way. I was making like, things that were stressful and hard, worse. And I wouldn't feel right inside. So if I couldn't, when I'd come home, I'm kind of upset and, and it's just a car problem. Like, it doesn't need to own my soul. But it was my rules around finishing strong and solving everything. And even tying in my ego into my work like that is kind of what men do in general. But depending how you're wired, you do it more than more or less. So, for me, it's like, if I couldn't fix this, if I couldn't win this, if I couldn't prove to myself that I'm smarter than this problem or whatever, it would kind of take a piece out of me. And that's kind of a fragile place to be you know, so-

Dawn Taylor 13:48

Totally. So, you've brought up a few times, feelings. Emotions. Like how it made you feel things, if you can see Dallas as grin right now is he's laughing about me saying this. It would make you laugh. But that was a piece of it. So as Dallas said earlier, he reached out to me as a client. We also had known each other most of our lives. Our dads actually worked together, we had some common people in our inner circles. I graduated with one of his brothers. So we kind of like... kind of knew each other but not super. Not super well. Like I don't know if we'd ever even sat and had a conversation prior to our very first Facebook messaging.

Dallas Wiebe 14:35

That's right. So it was just more like "Hey, I know who you are, you know who I am."

Dawn Taylor 14:39

Totally and so he had reached out to me and you were in a dark place and I know that one of the first- one of the things that as we.... How do I word this? As we dug into your rules... I wanted to say as we fought through your rules to convince... right? Because you did that too.

Dallas Wiebe 15:00

Convinced me that I even had any to start with.

Dawn Taylor 15:03

Yes, that was entertaining was getting to the point of convincing you that there could have been a rule there in the first place. So one of the big things that came out of it for you was even understanding what feelings and emotions are.

Dallas Wiebe 15:15

Yeah, well, you said I was in a dark place. And I would say, more specifically, I was in a grey place. So feelings and emotions in general, were just one of those things that's untrustworthy. They kind of disregarded in my head as, well, inconvenient, and they could lie. So-

Dawn Taylor 15:37

Ding, ding, ding, there's a rule! For anyone. So for anyone listening, I'm gonna ding ding, ding every time a rule comes up. Maybe not, but anyway. But just think about that, right? Like when we're talking about these unconscious rules, and these, these ones that show up in our lives, right, just to give you like, a super tangible rule that Dallas had-

Dallas Wiebe 15:59

Yeah?

Dawn Taylor 15:59

right? Was like feelings and emotions are always denied. Pretty much like, there's just no need for them. There's no need for them!

Dallas Wiebe 16:09

Get them out of the way, put those somewhere, wherever you can stuff them. And, you know, give her like, push your shoulder into something and work. And so you know, the time you get into your mid 40s, and that's your method. Things are pretty great. Like, you don't feel up and you don't feel down.

Dawn Taylor 16:26

No, you're kind of flat.

Dallas Wiebe 16:28

Just, kind of flat. Until life kicks you hard enough and you feel down and you're like, well, I can't stay here.

Dawn Taylor 16:34

What is this feeling?

Dallas Wiebe 16:37

So then, yeah, so then I want to call and to talk to you and, and you started pointing at all these things that are basically, well, feelings and emotions. I'm like, well, I don't believe in those so much!

Dawn Taylor 16:53

You actually used those words. "I don't believe in those." Like, yeah, you kind of don't have a choice. We need to find these for you.

Dallas Wiebe 17:00

Yeah. So that rule was written way deep inside of me, and probably from, you know, as a kid haven't having to deal with the emotions and feelings that weren't convenient. And so you, you build a method to deal with it. It's not necessarily wrong. It's just survival. You just doing the best you can as a, as a little person,

Dawn Taylor 17:19

Its a beautiful protection mechanism.

Dallas Wiebe 17:21

Yeah!

Dawn Taylor 17:22

Yeah.

Dallas Wiebe 17:22

But that rule gets written in the base program, like that gets written into the early part. So it isn't even something your question. Like, it's just, it's unconscious, it's underneath it. So when you're responding to life and living life, and not even knowing the rules you're operating by, then you can't fix anything. Because you keep adjusting all the variables that are on the outside of those rules, you keep adjusting the things that are like outcomes, not the input devices. So for me, tripping over these rules as we're going through stuff, it was really hard on my soul, because you're messing with my base program, like you're-

Dawn Taylor 18:04

Ugh Yes.

Dallas Wiebe 18:06

You know, and so you-

Dawn Taylor 18:08

Hard on your soul is probably an understatement, somedays.

Dallas Wiebe 18:12

And you'd point something out, and, and you do your best to rile me up. I mean, let me know. And then, and so, I would have, you'd have to kind of leave it with me, let me chew on it for a while. And then I, you know, come back again next week. I'm like, yeah, you're right and I don't like it. And then... But that's kind of what the thing of change is, especially as you get older as like, to let go of these rules is scary. Because you're, you're letting go of things that you even though they're broken. They're only you know, like, what you what you drive by.

Dawn Taylor 18:48

They're your normal.

Dallas Wiebe 18:49

Yeah, they're what I call my method that was broken, but and so that's just one of those simple rules. That was right under the bottom of it, right. And, it was actually probably one of the baseline rules that had to be adjusted.

Dawn Taylor 19:03

So talking about these unconscious rules, right? And how all of a sudden you're like realizing you have these in the the shifts that needs to happen with them. There isn't a person listening that isn't my Oh, yeah. Okay, maybe I have a weird rule or two.

Dallas Wiebe 19:15

Yeah.

Dawn Taylor 19:16

Right. We all have them is the thing. That's actually just reality. So I'd love to dive into each rule that we talked about and go okay, so this rule? How did how did it affect your life in a negative? And how did overcoming it and bringing emotions in, shift relationships in your life, your business, your world for positive? So how did it affect you in a negative?

Dallas Wiebe 19:40

Well, the negative side of all that kind of disregard for emotions in general is not only do you not know how you feel, I didn't know how I felt because I've turned them off as best as I could. I struggled and nobody else helped. And so emotions that seemed, well inconvenience other people. It was like, well, why are you asking like that? Like, so that isn't a baseline for a healthy relationship. You know, it's-

Dawn Taylor 20:08

What? For real??

Dallas Wiebe 20:11

So when it had to start with me being able to deal with my emotions, and people say, well deal with your emotions, it's like, well, let yourself have them. I am like, well, what about all the pain in my life, but I can't put that all out. It'll creep out in little stuff here and there, but let yourself have some. It's not like, one of the things that triggered me is music. Certain music can bypass my defenses. So my emotional defenses were often good, but I could have a bad day and not really put a finger on how I was feeling. But go get myself into a, you know, a bit of a private space and play some some music, it would come up to the surface, how I felt, and sometimes just processing the emotions, having them be present. And going, yeah, I guess my face is leaking, now I'm crying. And I can I'm not really proud of that as far as my man genes go, but my soul feels better, by actually letting out this feeling that's inside of me. And I'm not suggesting that I'm going to let my emotions run my life, I still have a lot of the decisions to make, that have to be weighed out with reality. But when trying to have a relationship with well, myself. And then the next step with people, if you deny emotions exists, because they are inconvenient, sometimes, there's a very, low ceiling, on a relationship potential. It's very hard to get to know how you feel. And therefore it's very hard to have any clue on why people around you respond this way or that way. Because emotions are kind of like, they aren't always telling the truth. But they're always always telling you something. Like they have a reason for being there. Right. And so, sometimes your emotions are just completely overwhelmed up about something. And it's not really that one thing it was that broke, that was the straw that broke the camel's back, it was 35 things that you've been ignoring for a long time just stuffing it in there. And all sudden something triggers that and you're like, this is completely overblown, by this situation, why do I feel this strongly about this? And so sometimes there's strong feelings around something. And that was to me, it went from using... from running from emotions, to using emotions as a detector of things inside of me that had been buried, and needed to be dealt, like, talk to, need to see what that's about. And so there was there was parts of me that were I didn't like, I didn't like how that part of me work. It didn't like how that made me feel. So if you just turn your emotions off, the feedback mechanisms broken. You don't even know where to look.

Dawn Taylor 23:03

Ok, right there. When you turn your emotions off. Your feedback mechanism is broken.

Dallas Wiebe 23:09

Yeah.

Dawn Taylor 23:11

That statement right there is so freakin true. Right? If we can just shut this off, if we can just shut it off, shut it off, shut it off, shut it off, shut it off. Right? But it's in those emotions that were like, hey, wait, something's going on here. Something is going on here. There's something wrong and it's whether it's with us or it's with somebody else. Right? When you're in tune with those emotions when you can finally face them all of a sudden it can shift like I know like for you it's shifted your relationship with your employees at work your... like your family, your friends. Like the deeper conversations you've had the... your wife, your daughter, like your puppy dog!

Dallas Wiebe 23:56

Yeah, I've become a bit of a softy as of late.

Dawn Taylor 24:00

Still strong and manly though. Come on Dallas! Gotta put that out there.

Dallas Wiebe 24:04

Well, the thing of it is I enjoy it. Like I'm enjoying the things in life that I used to find unnecessary. And they are the spice of life. So, you know, I enjoy talking to my daughter and you know, she's getting married in a few months and that's a crazy process to be a part of. And-

Dawn Taylor 24:28

Yeah.

Dallas Wiebe 24:30

So the funny thing is about emotions in other people is often they want to talk about it too. And for me to sit there with my logical brain and say, Okay, explain to me exactly your problem and why do you feel that way?

Dawn Taylor 24:49

That's just so useful! Come on though...

Dallas Wiebe 24:53

Not a good opening line for your teenage daughter. And so I had to leave room to let the emotions fall out in conversation and not try to logically stuff it into me getting an answer quickly, right? Because that's the... that's my mind, that's common in males. But I'm a hyper example of that. Where am I 100% problem solver human being. So just give me the data. Just the facts, ma'am. Like that line there. You know?

Dawn Taylor 25:26

Just the facts ma'am that's amazing. I can like hear my German grandpa in that line right there. Oh my gosh!

Dallas Wiebe 25:37

So if you want to hear what someone's got to say, you can't ask them to distill it down to facts only because their heart's hurting. You know, so to have a relationship with somebody, it takes listening through the tears and the giggles and all the all this stuff. So when you when you start hearing people from their heart, there's connections made at levels that will never be made by Mr. Logicman and his problem solving suitcase, right. So-

Dawn Taylor 26:06

That should be like your Halloween costume next year. Mr. Logicman and your problem solving suitcase. Right there. Just visualize it.

Dallas Wiebe 26:16

Yeah, I'll bring my small white puppy with me.

Dawn Taylor 26:21

Yes!

Dallas Wiebe 26:21

It'll be a great paradox to look at!

Dawn Taylor 26:25

So what was the other rule you were going to talk about? Another rule that had come up for you?

Dallas Wiebe 26:30

Oh yeah. So this is a more... way less emotional thing. But so what had happened is, because I got into business, in my early 30s. I had, I was motivated, I was a motivated business worker, right. So I got into business without training, right? As an automotive technician, fancy word for mechanic. You're fixing cars and doing stuff, right? You just fixing cars, and I enjoyed making hot rods and things. And then this opportunity comes to buy a business. And you know, it's just a little two bay setup, but you're buying the property in the building. And so I had in the Mennonite fashion had been pretty, fairly frugal to this point and built up enough equity to pull it off. But totally bet the farm on it, like you're betting your house, you're betting everything against it you're going all in. And when you start that, you're pretty sure that you could fail, but you're gonna like, kill yourself, so you don't fail. And for me, failure was associated with loss, unacceptable loss. And that's a pretty harsh thing, because there's so much more like failures, like, reframed in my head to a crazy degree at this point. But in the process of just working hard, and being fairly intelligent about handling my customers and the money and my employees, I had to put myself through business school, basically in the school of hard knocks, because I had no training and dealing with that, just careful learning on the spot. But I found that I had taken and, you know, made a pretty successful business in a short time with hard work and some really, really good employees, hiring the right people at the right time. And, you know, my brother helped me build a new building, and, you know, just all the, all the combinations work together. But I had completely built up who I was as a successful business person as who I was. So the rule about if this business fails, I fail, was killing my business. Right?

Dawn Taylor 26:30

Ok, let's just talk about that for a second.

Dallas Wiebe 28:55

Yeah.

Dawn Taylor 28:56

If my business fails, I fail, which then flows into what? I'm a failure.

Dallas Wiebe 29:02

Yep, that's the next next step of the flowchart.

Dawn Taylor 29:05

And how often does that happen in everything. We're like, as an entrepreneur, as a business owner as especially. There's such this, like, there's such a huge belief that like we are our businesses, and if we fail, or the... if the business fails, if we just... If something doesn't go according to plan, then like, we're this horrible human instead of being like, no, no, no. There's 100 different metrics that went into that.

Dallas Wiebe 29:34

Oh Yes. Yeah.

Dawn Taylor 29:36

But that deep seated belief. Good luck to anyone listening telling me you don't believe that one, because that's a common one. but- Right?!

Dallas Wiebe 29:44

It's a common one. And what happened is, it made me more and more risk averse, right.

Dawn Taylor 29:49

Yeah.

Dallas Wiebe 29:50

So as you as you go along and you get some more employees and you deal with, you know, the overheads climbing and the overheads climbing and you're trying to find the profit where margin that you thought you had built into this. And you can only be so risk averse as an entrepreneur and get anywhere. So you take even me going into business was more risky than a lot of people that in my life would say was a good idea. Right? Like, what are you going to gain out of that you're just buying yourself a job, you could go wor- keep working. But so I proved to myself that I could make a business go. But I had grown so fast that the overhead had gotten pretty serious. And it only worked if I had the right people around.

Dawn Taylor 30:39

Yeah.

Dallas Wiebe 30:39

But I was becoming a massive stress ball that was hard to be around.

Dawn Taylor 30:45

Yeah.

Dallas Wiebe 30:46

And so the combination of that, plus this fear inside and be a failure that I could see, I could see the numbers changing directions, I could see, the business wasn't as healthy as it once was. And it was still working. I just saw the curve, you know, I saw the trajectory change. And I'm like, and my response to it was making it worse. I was getting, I was getting cheaper, I was more upset when people made mistakes, I was just pointing out all the errors of everybody around me like that was the reason why we were slowly losing ground. And so it did two things. It was unhealthy for the business. But it was breaking me because I started to see the business as a problem. The business was my enemy. It was, a thing to run from, it's like, I gotta get away from this, I'm too stressed out. I'm getting too many migraines. It's... I can't maintain this anymore. And that was a real crisis for me. Because up until that point in my life, I kind of made a well, a weird, half adrenaline fueled method of solving problems. And that was, stare at it, and run at it. And in the process, you'll learn like if something terrified me, I just go at it. And so... That probably didn't help my mom sleep much. But-

Dawn Taylor 32:12

I was gonna say, it's so fun to be married to and so fun to raise as a child!

Dallas Wiebe 32:20

You know, I was a pretty soft soul so I wasn't going out to terrify the people who loved me but adrenaline was my drug. And that was my one of my ways of getting a good feeling was to run out something, have it scare the crap out of me, and then beat it. Like that was kind of my drug.

Dawn Taylor 32:40

When you... not just and this was in your thing you'd sent like we talked about earlier, it's like adrenaline was your drug of choice.

Dallas Wiebe 32:46

Yeah.

Dawn Taylor 32:47

And it was like skiidoes and race cars. Like all the toys.

Dallas Wiebe 32:56

Well, that now the mountain, snowbowling was was really important to me, because there's something about the beauty of the mountains of freedom of the mountains. And then this huge, huge, like, risk factor, combined with horsepower. So that was... That's was that's my thing. Actually, and I sold my sled a couple years ago, and people were like, why? And I'm like, I don't need it anymore. And not that it's wrong. It's just that the drug that I needed out of it isn't required anymore. So that type of thinking was really tying me up. But like, if you're an athlete, you say it may be tight. Like it, it made me so I couldn't play the game anymore. So going to work, quite sure that work was the source of all the anxiety in my life, thinking somehow that I was still in charge that I should go to fix this. But the harder I tried, the more I buckled down. The more I tried to plug the holes in the dam by being upset about everyones- everybodys' mistake, the worse it got. And so one day, well. My trick was I gave it... I gave the thing to God. I said, God, okay, you can own the business. I'm just gonna show up and work for you. Right?

Dawn Taylor 34:12

I remember that, yeah!

Dallas Wiebe 34:13

Yeah and so that began a change in my mental process. It took a while to let go even figure out what I'm saying to you right now that I do that. But being able to look at that and go, you know, I can do other things. I'm capable of all kinds of stuff. This can fail or die or can grow or whatever. It isn't who I am.

Dawn Taylor 34:38

Okay, pause there again. Seriously, this can grow or die. It could fail. It doesn't matter. This is not who I am.

Dallas Wiebe 34:49

Yeah, yeah and so-

Dawn Taylor 34:50

not our identity and for people listening they're like meh, God, whatever. Take the word God out of it and put universe take the word universe that have been put in whatever you want, it doesn't matter. It's, releasing that control of it.

Dallas Wiebe 35:06

Well, yeah, if you've got to be in control of everythin-

Dawn Taylor 35:09

Right?

Dallas Wiebe 35:09

and you kind of made yourself into a god. So that's got some downsides to it.

Dawn Taylor 35:15

Totally!

Dallas Wiebe 35:17

It locked me up. So that kind of thinking froze me up. So starting to free in that starting to be able to handle some risks are going to be able to try different things at work, because as a business grows, the same method that got you started won't keep you going. And so you gotta fire some ideas through the cannon and see what works. And if you're totally afraid of the ship going down every time you try something new, it doesn't work. So yeah, and for me is one of the recent things that I did was when profits were flat, I introduced profit sharing. And to try to, to show how healthy the business could be. And to get people to come on and say, you know, there's a lot of money for you to make, if you want to work with me.

Dawn Taylor 36:10

Yeah.

Dallas Wiebe 36:11

But to give away the profits that you're hoping to use to pay off some debt, to give it away to your staff. Without knowing whether it's going to work. It's like, well, this could, this could be given the way that the last bit of nest egg I was trying to put away for this debt or that debt.

Dawn Taylor 36:32

Yeah?

Dallas Wiebe 36:32

But it turns out, people like to be included in the business, they like to be included in the bottom line. So getting really honest about that with people and saying, and like posting monthly profit statements of your business to your whole staff, and watching it go up, as they're watching it go up. It's just been a few months, but it's challenging, and it's yeah. And it's really fun to watch other people start to see "Hey what I do actually matter here!" whether I come to work and give it a bit or not. It matters, it changes, how things go for me too. And so it's for people to say you're doing what I'm like, I'm giving away 50% of the company profits to my employees. You're crazy. And I am like, well, if you make enough and they make enough, then everything works. And in this in this market, retaining skilled staff is where it's at. Like if you can retain skilled staff, you're winning. And so my goal isn't to retire any given time, my goal is to enjoy working. So-

Dawn Taylor 37:40

I'm so proud of you, like so proud of you. No seriously! No, but even for some anyone listening, like the journey of my business is my identity. And it's my everything. And if it fails, I fail on all of that stuff.

Dallas Wiebe 37:58

Yeah!

Dawn Taylor 37:58

To get yourself to the point where you're like, No, no, it's okay. This isn't my identity, my identity is enjoying life and in helping these people and supporting them and helping everybody succeed.

Dallas Wiebe 38:11

Yeah, I mean, yeah. I'm getting more positive feedback. I love training people and I love educating people that have taken young entr- we all young people who want to do something and teaching them something and teaching them how to... this... Overall, corporations are really good at teaching people how to do one job, but they never get to see larger picture. And so whenever I get a young worker starting off, if they have the mind for it, I want to, I want to train them how to run a business, hey, at work do be a mechanic, that's a very good job. And it's a very technical, you got to be smart to do that these days, cars these days are pretty brutal.

Dawn Taylor 38:52

It's not the old... it's not the old vehicles that we worked on in high school, no,

Dallas Wiebe 38:58

But the way this trade works, if you're good at it, you leverage up into running your own business. Like that's, the way to get, to take your knowledge that you gained in the first 20 years. And get it into your into your head and find a way to use that. And so I'll train new staff, if they want to know, I'll train them as into what I have going on. And I've had people get trained and leave. And it used to be a big thing. I used to be really sad when people left, you know, because it's just, you know, it's so hard to replace people. And I don't want people to leave, but to have somebody come in pretty rough around the edges and not really, you know, really anchored in any value that they could offer to anything and to leave knowing they went to a really good job. They're growing as a human, they're way better off. I like that. That's that's a positive feedback loop for me. So that's way different than just trying to get someone to stay in the business long enough to see if you can fill the role and take care of your responsibilities and make some money. And then so, yeah,

Dawn Taylor 40:06

Okay, so let's, tie that back to the very beginning of this conversation, where we talked about your dad laying in that hospital bed and staring outside and just wanting to drive the delivery truck.

Dallas Wiebe 40:19

Yeah.

Dawn Taylor 40:20

And your fear, your giant fear of becoming your dad.

Dallas Wiebe 40:27

Yeah, in many ways, becoming my dad is in his is an honor of that part. That part of him I didn't want to have that I want to see doing work as my therapy.

Dawn Taylor 40:40

Yeah.

Dallas Wiebe 40:40

I didn't, want to see that as my way to get through life. Because something else my dad was pretty good at this is just a balance to this is he, loved the people around him. But he often struggled with people that wouldn't value the same things he valued. So things being clean and tidy, taking good care of stuff. But he was a hard worker unselfishly toward others. So this last Sunday, we had a baptism in our church, and he was the guy who would prepare everything, clean up, fill up the baptismal tank, make sure it was a comfortable temperature, he'd have the mop bucket ready keep the floor from being a nasty slip zone. And he just took care of everything. And his picture. And some other people's is in our dining room, stuck on the wall, as kind of the hard work and heroes that people didn't get to see that much. But we know are there. So I found myself this Sunday, grabbing a mop bucket, out of that janitor room. And to me, it was kind of a full circle moment for me to be doing the job that he would normally have done, and then realized how good he was at serving people, without asking for credit. Like he was just good at being a great servant. And so in one on one side of his work driven mode, he had tied his identity to that he had tied his being to being able to keep busy and wasn't sure who he was when he wasn't working hard, I can say. But the other side of it was he was able to work and bless people without having to be seen, without having to get the big deal. And so I look at this rule that I that I saw in him where, you know, work was made so important to his psyche, that when you take it away, it really bothered him. And I'm like, I don't want to be that grounded in work, I don't want to have work is my only method to keep my myself feeling good. But on the other side of it, I've started to find the ability to do work, to bless people and see in them a payback in that where you're working for something bigger than yourself. And all sudden, the work becomes pleasant. It's worth doing. And so the rule of work is that you can work way harder than you think you can. If you have the right motives. It's amazing what you can accomplish and healthy too!

Dawn Taylor 43:28

Oh my gosh, so much. So much.

Dallas Wiebe 43:32

But if you view work as with an unhealthy view, it could be the enemy. It could be the thing you're trying to run from like you're everybody's working to retire. Or it can be unhealthy crutch to be your... keep your brain happy. But what's your rules around it. It isn't work's fault. It's how you look at it, right?

Dawn Taylor 43:53

When I think with that there's... I was talking to someone today about how we're so quick to throw the baby out with the bathwater. So we have these people in our lives, you know, like your dad, my mom when they passed away. And I know we've had just even friend conversations about this, about how there's parts of our parents that we've loved so much, and they were so outstanding, there's parts that we hated, or that were really toxic or really not good. And that's okay! Like it's okay in our perspective, to see the person in that light and to know that maybe some of their actions or some of their behaviors, did cause damage to us, or did shift things in us or did change things about us to interactions we didn't love or like or even appreciate. You know, as we got older.

Dallas Wiebe 44:00

Right. Yeah.

Dawn Taylor 44:43

But we also don't have to throw out the person with it. Right? Like we don't have to throw out the person with it. And I know like one of my mom's was like, it's always about give, give, give, give, give, like also super generous, right like, I am sure her and your dad would have been very good friends. If they ever spend some time together as they were both that way. Yeah. But my mom also didn't have healthy boundaries on it often-

Dallas Wiebe 45:07

True, yeah.

Dawn Taylor 45:08

Of knowing when she needed to actually stop! When it wasn't an appropriate moment to give, when it wasn't healthy for her kids or her family, when she needed to actually have a healthy boundary in place so that she wasn't giving so much of herself that she was being destroyed by it.

Dallas Wiebe 45:26

Yeah.

Dawn Taylor 45:26

And so, I know, that's been hard, like, even on us as kids as growing up. And I know, it's conversations that I've had to even have with my husband is, like, I have to make sure I have healthy boundaries on that because I very quickly will turn into my mom and that way.

Dallas Wiebe 45:41

Yeah, yeah.

Dawn Taylor 45:42

And instead of being like, no, it's still absolutely beautiful to give, give, give, give, give, and I can more than most people of my time, my energy, my resources, whatever. But I can also have a healthy boundary on it. So it doesn't become an identity for me.

Dallas Wiebe 45:59

That's right. Yeah.

Dawn Taylor 46:00

And that's where so many of these rules that we take on become an identity, the rules of who we have to be as a mom, who we have to be as a dad, who we have to be as a boss, what our beliefs are on something what we're willing to budge on or not budge on how things go down. The amount of times in our house, even we say like, "Oh, we're going to be in trouble. We're breaking a rule here." Right? And I mean, we're breaking a rule by doing something like not making turkey on Christmas dinner. Yeah, yeah, one of those kind of rules, Like, those silly rules, but it's still a rule. It's still these weird unconscious rules that we have about, like, if I don't this, then I'm not that.

Dallas Wiebe 46:43

Yeah. And it's, you have to be open to the discovery of these rules, if you actually want to change. Because, for me, becoming aware of the rule took a hard thing, to be able to look something look my life in the face and say, "The way I want it to go, the way I think it should go isn't happening." And am I willing to go through the painful process of like, upsetting everything right now of letting go of the way I want I think things should be and so to ask questions about stuff to say, "Well, why do I do that?" And why? So it's, it becomes less of a fear of breaking everything and more of a curiosity. I wonder how much of this is this baked into my thinking? I mean, one of the big words of our day is like unconscious bias. And it's used in all kinds of ways, and some of its has good value in it. But we have these unconscious biases that affect how we take stuff in. And we don't even have to go to the point of judging others with that unconscious bias. We're just not taking it in. And so the luxury of learning involves breaking down rules, the luxury of getting to change is breaking down rules. And so if you say, "Man, I gotta change this, this is not working." Well. That's a healthy question. But then, what am I doing to create this because it's so easy, point outwardly and is, and point at all the things that come at us as the issue. Look, when I was at work, I was, you know, my employees aren't doing this, and my employees are doing that. And so you take, as the employer, I could do something about it. If I was willing to change, break down my rules on my end, and try some different things, right. But making this... pointing at them and saying, Well, if they would, if they would do this or that, then it would be good. Well, I can't do anything about that!

Dawn Taylor 48:50

Right?! And I feel like that's an easy way for someone to even start to see where their rules are in their own life is. Where are you really frustrated?

Dallas Wiebe 48:59

Yeah.

Dawn Taylor 49:00

Where is an area of your life, that you're really frustrated that somebody else is screwing up in all the time?

Dallas Wiebe 49:05

Yeah, yeah.

Dawn Taylor 49:06

Right. Like, it's my frustration and put somebody else is at fault for it all the time. Right, what kind of crazy rules you have attached to it? What kind of crazy expectation do you attach to it?

Dallas Wiebe 49:18

Yeah, and it isn't that people around us couldn't improve.

Dawn Taylor 49:23

Always, come on, we're perfect Dallas.

Dallas Wiebe 49:28

But it's just that so much of what really frustrates you, the stuff that repeats over and over again, is something you're carrying in you too, right? It's something that I'm facing this a certain way. And so I find that whole concept of walking up to a frustrating situation, giving myself a second and going all right, instead of just being angry at it, which is there like I can feel that come up and I'm... okay, I'm not excited about this. If this isn't the first time you've walked into this, so there's something I'm able to do differently, what is it? What can I do differently about this? And, you know, a lot of people will not really like quiet self reflection time. I mean, as a Christian we pray, right. But there's if you don't, if you can't be okay with your own self, in your own space in some quiet time, and actually assess, hey, when I was really upset about that being at work, what was that feeling? I've had weird, weird, weird stuff come up, I have expectations about somebody that they should just know better. They should just know better than doing that. And then in the back of my head, I can kind of feel now. Well, I was taught to know better about that. Because of the expectations put on me, but I didn't like how I was taught that. I was taught that the harder way. And so to expect them to know that I had to change, even though I've had a reasonable request of an employee, the way people learn is all different. And so if I say something, and they would, "oh, okay, I'll just change." Well, that isn't usually how it works, right? You got to find out how they work. And so for me, it was like, the ability to assess the situation and go, yeah, I'm frustrated by this. But I am treating them like, well, sometimes, maybe how my dad treated me. And I want them to just get it and do it right. But that hasn't been even defined properly, in a way that they understand. And the motivation, why they would do that isn't even present for them. So I gotta find out what their currency is, what matters to them. And then I got to find out what language they speak. And that's different for different people. So- and that's turned into a curiosity- an experiment! It's curiosity now to figure out how to communicate with people versus a complete frustration and yet I still get frustrated. But I sit down and ponder it, like pray about it. You know, I get input. I have ideas. I can do different things the next day, instead of repeating the same thing, hoping for different results, which is insane.

Dawn Taylor 52:01

It totally is. Definition of insanity.

Dallas Wiebe 52:28

Yeah!

Dawn Taylor 52:30

Husband says it all the time doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

Dallas Wiebe 52:34

Yeah. Yeah.

Dawn Taylor 52:36

Dallas, this is amazing. And I just want to thank you so much for being here with us today and having a talk with us. And, again, tying it back to that initial story is you've completely shifted your direction, you're never going to be your dad laying in that hospital bed.

Dallas Wiebe 52:54

No, you know, this is a really good snapshot for me. Because when you change in life, sometimes it's slow. And then you look back to something you go, "Oh lots have changed!"

Dawn Taylor 53:06

A lot!"

Dallas Wiebe 53:07

Yeah.

Dawn Taylor 53:07

Like so much! So if you have one challenge for the listeners about something that they could do right now to support themselves, in this way, help themselves in this way, or even start to like dig into some of their own rules. What would it be?

Dallas Wiebe 53:22

Next time you're really frustrated with somebody, some relationship, or some even situation, but probably going to be a person involved. There's a good chance, especially if it's a repeating situation, so somebody that's stuck in your world, that you can't get out, there's a good chance that they are doing some crazy things that are messing you up. But there's even a better chance that you've got some rules baked into your responses, baked into how you're looking at the situation, that if you would assess it, you know, with a kind of curiosity, "what I got involved here, what am I? What am I bringing to this?" you could do something to make that situation a lot better. And it has to... you have to be honest with yourself, you have to be okay with a bit of quiet time with yourself. But if you can sit down and assess that, you're not going to get it the first time. But you might try 10 things that don't work. And the 11 that might work. What you like you probably hit the same situation 30 times already. So what's 11 more?

Dawn Taylor 54:26

Right? I know, I know. What is your favourite place you have ever travelled?

Dallas Wiebe 54:27

Maui.

Dawn Taylor 54:27

Oh yes, you do love Maui

Dallas Wiebe 54:27

Yeah.

Dawn Taylor 54:28

So lets finish off with just a few fun silly questions like I always do at the end.

Dallas Wiebe 54:33

Oh, good! We are going back this year,

Dawn Taylor 54:45

Are you? Oh, that's awesome. You are a lover of there. What was something you spend a silly amount of money on? Other than car engines?

Dallas Wiebe 54:56

It's gonna have to, it's gonna have to include car parts.

Dawn Taylor 55:00

It would be car parts would be my guest for you.

Dallas Wiebe 55:03

Just today I made over 1000 horsepower, on my Mustang, so I have a problem!

Dawn Taylor 55:09

I need to come for another ride.

Dallas Wiebe 55:11

Yeah!

Dawn Taylor 55:12

Is there a secret guilty pleasure way that you use to decompress? Do you have a silly show that you watch? Or a thing you eat? Or...

Dallas Wiebe 55:23

This is really, this is really sappy, but I'll step out there. To decompress, I often need to cry. We talked about emotions, I need to cry people like you need to cry like yeah, you do, too. We just don't know yet. So I pick, on certain days, I will pick certain songs that have a lot of feel attached to them. And they may have been from the hard times or whatever they are, but you probably have yours too. And I play them on purpose, while I'm driving. So no one's around. And usually my face leaks a little bit. But then I feel better. Yeah,

Dawn Taylor 55:58

That's amazing. I love it so much. Thank you so much Dallas for being here. If you enjoyed this episode, and I really, really hope you did, I hope that you will forward it to friends, share it with people, all those fun things. I hope that something you've heard today hit home that shifted have something in you and just prove that you're not alone. Join us again in two weeks for another amazing topic. It's a fun one. And please tell your friends the more people to feel understood the better. Check out the show notes for information on how to get your car fixed by Dallas if you want that. But also things we talked about today. And they're located at the taylorway.ca Also all the contact information, everything we talked about all again, it's all written out there. And you can subscribe now on Apple, Spotify or wherever you listen to your podcasts. And if you'd love the show, please leave a review.