Taylor Way Talks

Why you would want to listen to this episode…

Burnout is a thing that happens to all of us and it can happen at any time. A problem we all face is the difficulty that goes into identifying this negativity in our lives. In this episode, Dawn and her guest Ben Kraker discuss the possibilities from wherein burnout could spring from - such as being at work, serving the community or even with the people you’re with at home. From that burnout, Dawn and Ben bring some steps and suggestions to turn it into a place of contentment where we can focus on what matters and be grateful for the things that truly mean the most to us

Who this for

For those of you who have felt the sting of burnout before or are experiencing such a rut now, know that you’re not alone and that this episode is for you. It’s an occurrence that happens to people from all walks of life and this episode is an acknowledgment that burnout doesn’t have to last forever. 

About Dawn Taylor

Dawn Taylor is the professional ass-kicker, hope giver, life strategist, trauma specialist, and all-around badass. Dawn's journey into helping others heal began when she took her personal recovery from the trauma she experienced in her life into her own hands. While at times unconventional, Dawn’s strategic methods have helped hundreds heal from traumas such as issues related to infidelity,  overcoming addiction,  working through PTSD from sexual, emotional, and physical abuse, as well as helping cult survivors thrive. Dawn’s work has empowered entrepreneurs, stay-at-home moms, and CEOs alike to be superheroes in their own lives. Having completed thousands of hours of training from many professional programs, including the Robbins Madanes Training Institute, Dawn’s blunt honesty will challenge your thinking, broaden your awareness, and help you achieve the outstanding results you are worthy of.

Connect with Dawn here at The Taylor Way: Consultation Call | Website | Facebook | Instagram | LinkedIn

Get to know Dawn on a deeper level through her book! Order Here

P.S. I Made It, is a powerful story that grabs you through its lack of pretension and honesty. Every page reveals another layer of curious wonder at both Dawn’s life and the power of hope that moves within each of us. Dawn’s hope is that you use this book as a resource to deal with your struggles. Share it with someone who needs it. We all want to feel like someone understands what it’s like to suffer through something and – come out the other side. She describes her life as “horrifically beautiful and beautifully horrific. 

Guest Bio

Ben Kraker serves on the leadership team of a diverse urban church that places a strong emphasis on mental health, addiction recovery, and the cultivation of robust community relationships. During the workweek, Ben fulfills his role as a Customer Success Manager at a locally-owned IT company, where he applies his professional expertise to support several prominent nonprofit accounts in the region. For the past decade, Ben and his family have proudly called Grand Rapids their home, embodying the city’s spirit of growth and rejuvenation. Ben’s personal journey revolves around self-discovery and overcoming his past, and he passionately advocates for mental health and self-worth. With 17 years of marriage to Andi, they epitomize enduring love and commitment while raising two teenagers they adopted from the foster care system.

Guest Social Links

Podcast - Real Men Hug  https://www.realmenhug.com/ Redefining the narrative of masculinity

Facebook - facebook.com/benkraker

Instagram - @benokay 

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Views Expressed, Legal and Medical Disclaimer

This podcast (including any/all site pages, blog posts, blog comments, forums, videos, audio recordings, etc.) is not intended to replace the services of a physician, nor does it constitute a doctor-patient relationship. Information is provided for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional medical advice. You should not use the information on this podcast for diagnosing or treating a medical or health condition. If you have or suspect you have an urgent medical problem, promptly contact your professional healthcare provider. Any application of the recommendations in this podcast/website is at the listener/reader's discretion. The views and opinions expressed are those of guests and do not necessarily reflect the opinion or policy of Dawn Taylor, The Taylor Way and or its Associates. The before mentioned are not liable for any direct or indirect claim or loss. 

Dawn Taylor

I am your host, Dawn Taylor. And today we are talking to the infamous Ben. Okay, I don't know what makes him infamous, but that's just what we're going to call him today. Today's topic is from burnout to content. And I have to say, I'm so excited that I'm talking to a man about this today. Because women, this is a big topic these days, is talking about burnout and talking about trying to find this infamous balance that I think is garbage, but the infamous balance and trying to get to all those places. But today we're going to be talking to Ben about it. Before we get started, I want to tell you a little bit about your guests, our guest, so you can be as excited as I am. Ben, who are you? He is a leader of, well, he's on a leadership team of a diverse urban church. The place is a very strong emphasis on mental health, addiction recovery and the cultivation of robust community relationship. During the work week. He is the customer service manager of a locally owned company, where he applies his professional expertise to support several prominent nonprofit accounts in the region. For the past decade, him and his wife have proudly lived in Grand Rapids, where their home is, embodying the city's spirit of growth and rejuvenation. Ben's personal journey revolves around self-discovery overcoming his past. He is an advocate for mental health and self-worth, and with 17 years of marriage to Andy, the epitomize enduring love and commitment while raising two teenagers they adopted from the foster system. This could be part of maybe why he is so legendary and amazing and has such an incredible heart. Welcome to the show, Ben.

Ben Kraker

Thank you. Dawn. It is great to be here.

Dawn Taylor

I am so excited you arehere. So just a little bit of backstory. I was on one of Ben's podcasts quite a few years ago already, three years now. Yeah, it's been a while and I had such a great time with him and Mike and their podcast that they were doing -  High Tech Ease. Right?

Ben Kraker

It was Threads.

Dawn Taylor

Oh, sorry. Threads. Wrong one. Whoops. Okay, I should know better. And we had such an amazing conversation. And so when I saw your application come through to talk today I was very excited about this. So tell us a little bit about what you wish people were talking about.

Ben Kraker

I wish that people, and more specifically men, we're willing to have the conversations about why they feel so pressured to do the things that they're doing, and to throw themselves in with such a huge level of involvement as if they have something to prove. I just see, you know, especially with men, it's the career that's usually the focus. And everything else takes a backseat to their career. You know, maybe for some, it's sports or it could be any different thing. But, people and men more specifically typically have something that they give all of themselves to. And I just look at that and I wonder, is that really healthy? Is that necessary? Do we need to be giving 110% of us all the time to all these things, and especially in the church context? One of the primary messages that I hear from the Holy Spirit as I read the Bible is "Come to me, and I will give you rest. Be still and know that I am God." And we read in Exodus, "You only need to be still because the Lord will fight for you." So, where do we come up with this crazy idea that we have to do all the things and be all the things to all the people? It's just, it's crazy and it's not worth losing your life to.

Dawn Taylor

Wow. So multiple thoughts on this. Number one is, having grown up in the church and being a churchgoer myself, right? They always say and being active in nonprofits and charitable organizations and stuff, they always say that the 20 carry the 80 right. 20% of people will always do the work for the other 80%. And I often have looked back at that and thought, to put it really bluntly, like, this is bullshit. Like, what is going on? Why is this the way it is? And and I see it in that way too. So can you give us some examples of. Of what you're talking about. Like when it comes to like sports, when you're talking about all these things, it is definitely a thing. It is definitely a thing when you say that, right? That people will become obsessed. It's an obsession with something. Give me some examples of this, even from your own life, if you don't mind.

Ben Kraker

Yeah, well, I'm not much of a sports fan. However, I get into things like cycling or kayaking and there was a summer where I don't even know why, but I made a goal that I was going to bike 800 miles that summer, and I would not allow myself to fail like, hell or high water. I was going to get 800 miles in and to this day, I'm not entirely sure why. Ihink maybe I was after a little bit of, if I'm honest, attention and like, kudos from people for doing a really hard thing. But what I've learned is that instead of doing these crazy things, I can just ask for what I need. And that's been a life changer. So that comes to mind. And then I also mentioned work. This was more applicable when I was in full time ministry. I just felt like 40 hours wasn't a thing. Like I felt like my role in life was to do ministry. 24, seven and maybe 40 of those hours happened in the church context, but it felt like ministry was my job and like my calling. So, I need to be doing that all the time. Like there's no room for me to get what I need or to rest or to slow down. Um, just this mentality of like, that's what being on fire for the Lord is, is constantly doing all the things and and yet missing out on those very foundational invitations from God that I mentioned that are throughout the entire scripture.

Dawn Taylor

So, secular or non secular, right. So, the audience but the audience that's not that aren't faith-based. Don't you stuff. You're no different. You're no different whether you're in the church or not.

Ben Kraker

I Left the full time ministry and work in the corporate world now. So there's definitely a lot of tie-ins. It's not an either or here. I think in the church context it's just a little bit more nuanced.

Dawn Taylor

Oh, but is it? I think like the minute you said the word calling. Just like, how much is that? Like, I have a mission. I have a calling, I have, I was just gone for a few days. I take off every quarter for a few days and just kind of run away and breathe.

Ben Kraker

It's awesome.

Dawn Taylor

And one of the things that really hit me on this last one was this urgency to be busy, right. And everyone's talking about is this whole balancing in the burnout and everything else. And one thing that's come to me lately is like, I love working. I love it. Do I feel called to be doing what I'm doing as a trauma specialist? 100%. Do I think that it is a gift I've been given? 100%. Do I think that I am making a difference in this world? Absolutely, right? Like, I love what I do, but I also have no issues with taking time off. I struggle to stop working because I actually genuinely like working. But I also know, like when I have to stop client working or to have a break. And there is a difference and. I was scrolling social media one day, and I'm literally sitting in a garden shed in Portland. Another story living in someone's mini house.

Ben Kraker

Pardon?

Dawn Taylor

Portland, Oregon.

Ben Kraker

Yeah. Oh, fantastic. I used to live there.

Dawn Taylor

Oh, crazy. Yeah. So I was sitting there and I was scrolling social media and I saw these posts. I'm like, if you really want to get ahead and you really want to reach your calling, and you really wanted this and you really wanted that, and not faith-based people, just very secular, popular people of the world. Right? Because this wording spreads everywhere, you know, turn off Netflix and turn on a podcast, stop reading garbage and read a business book like you should always be in grow mode. And. I don't know if it's because I'm kind of a defiant toddler at heart. Anyone who knows me in my inner circle knows that about me. I am very much a defiant toddler at heart still. There was a piece of me that sat there and immediately felt shame for the fact that I had just binged too much Netflix that day. And I had to really stop myself and be like, "Where did that shame just come from?"

Ben Kraker

Right.

Dawn Taylor

And it wasn't guilt. It wasn't guilt that I had, like, done something wrong or I had wasted time or any of that. It was shame. It was full on. I am a bad person and I made a bad choice. And it was. I sat there and I was like, whew, there's some big feels coming up right now around this. And I love when those feels happen. I know most people hide from them and try to mask them. I always look at them to think like, "Wow, what is this? Where is this coming from?" And if anyone's listening to this podcast for a while, you know my line that I use all the time, it's like no judgment, just curiosity. And I realized that it was so many of these people that I was following because yes, they're motivational and yes, they're successful and yes, they're super wealthy and yes, they're all of these things and they're doing amazing work. But there was a shame attached to me not doing the same. And I was talking to my husband about it and he's like, "We need rest." Like mentally, emotionally, physically, spiritually. He's like, "We need rest." And he's like, "Rest is having a nap. Rest is watching too much Netflix. Rest is drawing a map of the top ten waterfalls in the Oregon area, and going on a road trip for a day, right, which I did."

Ben Kraker

You get to the coast? The  ocean?

Dawn Taylor

I did. I went to Canon Beach like I did. I went to Tillamook. Just eat cheese samples. Right. Like I did those things. But it was interesting, this weird feeling of shame attached to it. Yet when I look around right now, the conversations I've had even in the last few days with people, so many people are burnt out right now. So many people are burning out right now. So many people have a ridiculous level of fatigue in their world. And whether it's collective trauma at everything that's going on in the world, or it's the fact that we're just all so freaking burnt out because we're working too hard and giving too much. I do think that that's something that we need to look at as a society is - Can I? Can I go at 75% and still thrive?

Ben Kraker

Absolutely. I think that's very possible. But if you were to ask Ben ten years ago, I would have laughed at that and said, "No, you need to give not only 100%, but you need to find some extra in your reserves and give 110%, because that's what you do if you're passionate about something." So, I think somehow we've twisted passion to involve like a certain quantity of something where passion should really be about the quality, not the quantity. Like we're, so we measure everything it feels like. And I think that just adds to the stress and burnout. We can't just be passionate about something. We have to, for me, the pressure to measure and log 800 miles, like, why couldn't I have just said I'm going to ride my bike this summer and I'm going to love it? I think we experienced the same thing in a career setting, and just in general, it just feels like we have to have a reason or a number that we're working towards or like, it doesn't count unless you achieve something with it. And so, yeah, I think the collective trauma and the burnout is a direct result of feeling like we have to live up to some. Expectation that we don't even know who said it, but we feel the pressure to meet it.

Dawn Taylor

Where do you think that started? Like I know where a lot of ours would have started. Right? And that was started with how we were raised. Started with, you know, I come from an Eastern European, like a German background, and it's like you help your neighbors and you help everybody, and you give, give, give, give, give. And boundaries aren't a thing. Boundaries. Why would you have boundaries? You know boundaries. Boundaries are walls. Boundaries are evil. You're blocking. No, no, no. Boundaries are the most beautiful thing ever. And, like, so I know where that comes from in my world. Right? The constant need to give above and beyond. And I think it's the above and beyond that's the problem is it's not just about giving because I, I still fully believe that we do need to serve. We do need to give. We do need to, you know, volunteer for things like 100% like I have six massive cases of printer paper sitting in my entrance right now because there's a charity in need. And I had paper delivered today. Right? But it's the difference between buying six massive cases and buying 50 masses of cases, and then posting everywhere about it, and then having to figure out how to get it to them, and then doing a photo shoot and then making it a big ordeal and then stressing out because financially I couldn't afford to buy 50 cases of paper. And but if I don't buy the 50 cases and now they run out of paper in the next five years, I'm at fault because I said like, do you know what I mean? It feels like that's like, maybe that's a silly example, but it feels like that's what we do.

Ben Kraker

It does. Yeah. For me, I think of two examples or two possibilities come to mind of the origin story. Um, in my life, I grew up in a family setting where I was very different from my two brothers. They were into the hunting and the fishing and the. They were both pretty sporty. Um, and then my dad shared a lot of those similar interests, and I would say my dad and both of my brothers, um, certainly don't have the same personality makeup as I do. Like, I realized that I am a rare breed. I'm a sensitive man. I wear my emotions on my sleeve. Frankly, I don't think my brothers and even my dad were comfortable with that growing up. So, what that does for me, and I'm sure for others who may be listening, is it creates this sense of obligation to meet somebody else's desires for you. It's like somebody else has, like, these conditions that you need to meet in order to have a relationship with them. And whether that's true or not, it's the feeling. And the feeling eventually motivates the behavior. And I very much saw that in my life. So that's something that comes to mind as an origin point, just not feeling at home in my family of origin, and then feeling like I had to set some arbitrary things to accomplish in order to be what my dad or brothers are and things like that. So, that's certainly one of the origins. And the second I would say is social media. Like, I think a lot of this is a recent phenomenon. I look back to the days before social media where if you're like, you wouldn't know what your friends were up to every single day. Every single minute of the day. Because they're not, I mean, there's nowhere to look. And so when social media hits the the scene, all of a sudden there's like this pressure to one up each other like, oh, so-and-so just went to the Bahamas. Well, now I need to go to Turks and Caicos or whatever it is, like there's this pressure to, to do better, to one up them. And it takes away from that sense of contentment, of just enjoying it. Um, and then like you were saying, like whenever a good deed is done, there's like this massive pressure to, like, record it and make a big deal out of it and put it on social media. And so much energy these days get spent on like hustling and making a name for yourself. And my question to that is, why do you need to make a name for yourself with people who will watch a video and then scroll on to the next video and not even think about you again? Like, why do we give so much time and attention and value to these fly by night people that will never really have a certain level of engagement with, because it's just something on our phone screen that we're seeing as we scroll.

Dawn Taylor

I love that you said that. It's. I have been. So if you've listened to my podcast episodes, there's one about why is it so hard to make friends as adults?

Ben Kraker

Yes, and that was a good one.

Dawn Taylor

You're part of that one. The broken relationship right between you and a friend. Yeah, and he was the one who was on the podcast with me talking about it. So it was amazing today to hear that you guys have prepared a lot of that relationship. And you have healthy boundaries now, and you've figured out what works for you. And it's working really, really well. But I have lost friends over this last year over the over many years, and I'm sure for a lot of reasons, I know I'm not a super easy person to be friends with and that's who I am. But I have had so many people in my life and I've noticed that, especially over this last year, get mad because I can't come to their event. I can't come to their party. I don't want to host a party for them. I can't show up at things that they're doing or whatever it is, whatever it is, because of my lack of capacity and the amount of pain that has come with that would blow people's minds, of when I say no, I'm sorry, I can't. And they're like, what? Like, what's wrong with you?

Ben Kraker

And we were friends, right?

Dawn Taylor

And I said, this is some of the day. I said, you know what? It's by me. Choosing me doesn't mean I'm rejecting you.

Ben Kraker

That's a very good point.

Dawn Taylor

I'm not. I'm not rejecting you. I'm not rejecting you by me choosing my health, by me choosing my my family, my husband, my, whatever it is. It does not mean I'm rejecting you. And people don't like that.

Ben Kraker

I don't know, I think I might push back a bit on that idea of rejection, like. I don't know. I would say it is rejection. And rejection is just part of life. Like you're not always going to get the dream job that you wanted. You're not going to, if you're in sales, you're not going to close the big deal all the time, like you're going to be rejected. You're not going to be able to marry the person of your dreams necessarily right away. So, I think when we say no to people, we are rejecting them. And it's okay.

Dawn Taylor

But is it the rejecting them? Or there is emotions being attached to a decision that shouldn't be based on the intention behind it? Yeah. I mean, like, if I'm being invited to, like, a KKK event. Yes, I am full on rejecting you by. Hell no. I'm not attending your event. That is a flat-out rejection because my intention behind it is. No. I need you to know that I am not okay with this. And I don't want to do this. Right. But by me saying no. "You know what? I know that we had dinner tonight scheduled, but my husband has asked if there's any way I can be home and spend the evening with him, because he's really needing to connect to me right now." I don't think I'm rejecting. And maybe that's something I need to really look at for myself, but for me, I would never take that as a rejection from somebody. I'd be like, oh, they're just not available.

Ben Kraker

Sure. Yeah.

Dawn Taylor

And they didn't reject. So have we become too sensitive? Right. We're maybe meaning right. Or we've attached a personal meaning to everything.

Ben Kraker

Yes, well, way to turn the table back on me, because that just reveals one of my tendencies, like I do take things like probably more personally than I should a lot of the time. And, you know, it can be to my benefit if I take things personally. Like I had a customer this week who had an issue with their phones, and I just listened and I empathized and was like, "Oh, that is rough. Oh, somebody left you a negative review because of their poor experience with your phones when they called. That sucks. That's not okay." So I so in some sense is taking things personally earns credibility. But I also see where you're coming from. Maybe it's not a rejection. Maybe it's just as you're saying, I just can't do, it doesn't have to be an emotion tied behind it. Not everything in life has a emotion anchoring it, and that's a really hard concept for me to grasp.

Dawn Taylor

I can see that. But it's, for me personally, I think that that is what, like I've had to put some of those boundaries in place to keep me from burning out.

Ben Kraker

Yeah.

Dawn Taylor

Right?

Ben Kraker

Definitely.

Dawn Taylor

you know, it's no different than, like, no, I can't come to your event. I can't come to this networking event. And it's not because I don't love you. It's not because I don't support you. It's not because I don't want to be there, I actually can't.

Ben Kraker

Right. And sometimes that's okay. And you don't even need to explain if you can't.

Dawn Taylor

Right. And I think that that's where we actually need to just give ourselves more grace. But also look at that burnout piece to be like, "What is it that I am putting on my plate? What is it that I am doing to earn favor with someone?"

Ben Kraker

Yes.

Dawn Taylor

Versus this is something I love and I'm passionate about. Yeah. Think that's the other piece of the burnout is yes, we become obsessed right where it's like, but I have to go to every hockey game, and I have to go to every sporting event, and I have to play every single round of golf, and I have to write 800 miles on my bike, and I have to travel nonstop, and I have to do all those things. And the burnout 100% hits. The burnout hits because we actually just don't have the capacity to do everything that we're trying to do, right? And that obsession. But often like, and I talked to clients about this all the time is anytime we have like a big emotion to something or a big reaction or like a big action to something. What is it we're trying to. What is the need we're trying to meet?

Ben Kraker

Yes.

Dawn Taylor

Right. So are we needing someone to be like you did? Good, kid. Way to go ride your bike. Are we needing to feel loved or are we needing to feel accepted? Or are we needing to feel like we're part of something? Or are we needing to feel like we're part of a community? Are we like there's always a deeper emotion there that is attached to it. But I think because we attach those emotions to things, because needing that need met, then when someone else can't meet that expectation for of us or that we've put on them, we immediately go to hurt because we're not upset that they didn't show up at our event. We're not upset that they didn't, you know, come out to something. We're not upset that they didn't travel one more time to see us that month. We're actually like, "You don't love me. I'm not enough."

Ben Kraker

Mm. Yeah. You internalize it when it doesn't need to be internalized.

Dawn Taylor

No, it was all external. It was all just this big external thing. And I think that that's I don't know I think that's a lot of the burnout. Right. Definitely. But there's always somebody else that needs more or whatever it is.

Ben Kraker

Yeah. So taking what you said about unmet needs, do you think? Well, I guess what do you think? How do those unmet needs, what's the connection to social media? I think for me, I see a lot of connection there. Curious if if you see anything like you were talking about, if you got the 50 cases of paper, um, do you think there's an unmet need that motivates people to put it all out there on social media?

Dawn Taylor

Oh, absolutely. I think that people are I think a lot of us don't feel significant in our lives anymore, where we don't have, we were raised in a culture where you get a star, you get a star on the top of a paper for doing good. You get graded. You get graded every single day of your entire childhood until you're about 18, where it's like you literally get a mark. Where it's like, how good did you do? You get a gold sticker, you get a gold star, you get an attaboy, you win a trophy, right? You are. There is a tangible. There's a tangible checklist. There is a tangible way to acknowledge that you are important or not, or if you've done right or wrong or good or bad. And because we're raising that, I don't I'm not saying we need to get rid of grades. I'm not saying we need to get rid of all of those things. I do think, though, that there isn't any room in that for like, "Hey, what about like, who you are as a person? What about your heart? What about did you serve?" What about like, there's so many other things in that. The problem is we then become adults. And now the only significance we often get is from a significant other. Right, "I love you. You're amazing. You're great. Thank you, thank you, thank you." Whatever. If you're lucky enough to have someone that has the words of affirmation going on, sure, there's a vulnerability piece there. So now the minute they insult you, the minute they're mad at you, whatever. It hurts. So now you're not getting it there. And we don't have like, there's so many broken parent-child relationships. Like I remember someone asking me the thing I miss most about my dad. And I was like, "You know, I have done some really freaking cool stuff over the last 12 years, and I would love to just hear, like 'You did good, kid. Look, I'm proud of you.'" and we don't get that anymore, right? Like so many of us don't get any of those affirmations of like, "Hey, you matter. You're important. I'm really glad you're here on this earth." And so when we can put that out there on social media. And other people feed that to you, whether it's authentic or not. It still meets that need. So I think that's a piece of it. I think the other piece of it is there was a contentedness to life. When we only saw what we were doing and what our neighbors were doing, and what our friends or the people at church were doing in the small way, we saw it right when we only saw their houses, and we only saw their clothes, and we only saw how they ate, and we only saw their decor, and we only knew that they went camping every other weekend during the summer, because that was what they did in their tents, like, and that was it. That was that was their life. There was this beautiful content that, I feel like, yeah, we all kind of live this similar life. And, I mean, there was always like a wee hierarchy of like, oh, those people have a motorhome. We only have tents like, but the gaps were so much smaller because we didn't see what people were actually doing. And now with social media, right. You might see somebody. I mean, I know someone might get mad at me for saying this, but you have the people like the Rachel Hollis of the world who built this entire, like, cult following community of people around her, and being this marriage guru and everything is perfect. And then suddenly they're getting divorced.

Ben Kraker

Yeah, right. Yeah.

Dawn Taylor

And you end up with situations like that. So now you're watching somebody on social media and you're like, "Oh my gosh, they constantly travel and look at how amazing their life is." and look at how and we become discontent with our own life. "Oh, they're spouse's fitter than mine. Oh, they're eating better food than me. Oh, look at their brand new wardrobe. Oh, look at how they've renovated their house. I want to hang really, really fancy, expensive, crazy wallpaper in my house, too." Right? Because this is what we're seeing. We're seeing this everywhere. And because it's like we're constantly given proof, every scroll, we're given proof that we are not as good as someone else. Yeah, we're not enough.

Ben Kraker

Yeah. Sorry. Didn't mean to interrupt you. Interesting to me is The concept of Reddit, like there is a subreddit for absolutely everything on planet Earth, it feels like like are you into AI image generation? Oh, there's a subreddit for you. Cycling, health, different medicines, psychology, counseling, cities. Like, there's such a need for people to, like, have significance. And they, it's like they can't find that significance on their own. They have to have somebody else validate them for caring about the things they care about. And before social media, like if you were into rock collecting, you could just be into rock collecting. And it didn't have to become this huge thing that you join online communities about or, or post pictures of your rocks for all the world to see, and trying to convince them that you matter because you're a rock collector. You could just collect the damn rocks and look at them and find satisfaction and be okay with that. But, with the advent of social media and Reddit and everything else, it's like we have to. There's this weird pressure to find validation from other people, as if our own satisfaction from doing those things isn't enough. And that's just batshit crazy

Dawn Taylor

Isn't it? Yeah, when it is. I had a comment from some of the day and she's like, I love how she's like, "You're so just like, open and honest about what's going on in your life." Like, I'm the first person to be like, I think it was like my birthday post to my husband. This last year was like, "You're a pain in the ass. And at times I've hated your guts. Yeah, I love you more than anything. And I'm glad we fought for us." Right? But also I'm like, oh, there I go, off to IVs again. And this sucks really bad. And I cried the whole time. But you know what? It's keeping me alive. And it's keeping me healthy to, you know, someone laughed and they're like, "I love that you travel as much as you do, and you go to all these cool places, but you're so willing to show that, like, you're literally living in a garden shed instead of showing that you're like, at the Ritz-Carlton, right?" And I'm like, "Well, no, because I have a budget this big, like this little tiny budget for travel my husband and I have agreed on, and I try to get as much out of it as I can." But that also means like, I was gone for ten days and I think I ate one meal out.

Ben Kraker

Wow. That's impressive.

Dawn Taylor

I cooked, I was in Portland and I didn't even go to a single food truck.

Ben Kraker

I feel like you missed out on so much of the Portland culture?

Dawn Taylor

Oh, 100% I did, but it also was if I wanted to go for that long and I wanted to do what I wanted to do, it was like, what are my priorities and where does it matter? Because I don't need a photo of my food to know that I had a good time. I don't need a photo of those things, right? Like I was in New York for three weeks and didn't need a single slice of pizza.

Ben Kraker

Wow. Impressive.

Dawn Taylor

Again, I hardly ate out. I cooked all my food. I walked the 15 minutes every two days in about groceries and put them in my little backpack and walked back like, that's what I did. But, I also did so many cool, amazing things while I was there and did multiple Broadway shows and did all these cool things, but it was never about I'm doing this for a like. I'm doing this to brag about it. I'm doing this to make myself significant. I'm doing this so I can tell someone I did it. I'm doing this for... Right? And I think that's where, I don't know. I think as a society if we actually sat back. And we're like, "What do I want? What do I actually want? What do I actually desire? What are my actual priorities?" You know, I get asked to donate for charities constantly, constantly. I at times in my life have gotten 3 to 5 emails a day asking for money, time, resources, whatever. And I used to I had a very, very strict list of who I would donate to, what the like, the metrics that they had to hit for me to ever do a donation. And there's a pretty big list of metrics that I'd share with people if they ever were interested. But I really, really put time and energy and effort into that. And I remember one charity getting really mad at me for it. And I said, you know what's really interesting? And they were like, what? And I said, I could give, I could give to you all day, 100%, I could. I said, but if I give to every single person, I'm going to be on the other side needing charity because I will bankrupt myself, and I will end up on the street. And I will end up with nothing because I gave everything away.

Ben Kraker

Yeah.

Dawn Taylor

People don't get that. People don't get that. So what was your breaking point? Let's go back to your breaking point of what made you hit. So you left the church, the leadership portion of the church, right?

Ben Kraker

Well, I'm still involved in leadership.

Dawn Taylor

Just not full time.

Ben Kraker

I'm not getting a paycheck for it. It's really the biggest distinguisher. And for some reason, like, that's what kind of flipped the switch in my head. I realized while I was still employed in the church that I was doing it because that's what I got paid to do, and I had to do it a certain way in order to get that paycheck. And so, though it may not have been in line with my passions, the way I was doing my ministry was. The expectation of the church because they're the ones writing the paycheck. So I better fall in line with what they want. And so what I found myself doing is like basically borrowing other people's stuff. That wasn't my own idea and finding what was going to fit for that context, and then doing it and striving so hard to lead a ministry based on somebody else's ideas. Side note, if you ever want a side hustle to get into, get into writing curriculum for youth group, because my goodness, there are just thousands of them out there. And churches pay so much money for VBS curriculum, youth group curriculum. It's just again, an indicator of how off base. This is so that was a breaking point there, realizing that I was essentially doing things to get the paycheck and not doing things that I really wanted to do because I was afraid it wouldn't be in line with the church or the organization that I was working for at the time. So I made the decision I will no longer accept the paycheck from a church, and that boundary has just created so many amazing opportunities in my life. I have one mentor in particular who is a bit old school in his thinking, and he'll kind of prod me. You know, you just are so gifted, like you would be an amazing pastor or an amazing fill in the blank like you should come back to the church world. Oh, and I'm just like, "You know, I hear you. I don't even necessarily disagree with you. Yeah,

but if I were to go down that road, I'm saying no to me in a lot of ways." And what makes my approach and my style and the the gifts that you're seeing in me, the thing that makes them come alive. Yes, there's obviously a divine aspect to it, but it's also because I've cultivated those things intentionally. I put the focus on developing strong relationships with people and hearing stories and creating a space where people feel safe to unload. And I don't necessarily preach at them. I don't tell them how to believe or what to believe. I of course, make it known where I come from, but I just have a welcoming, opening spirit about it. And as I have opportunity to, you know, I'll share my beliefs or whatever the case may be. But that's not my starting line. And I feel like if I were to go back into the church world, they get to define what the start line is, and then that just jumbles my whole style and approach and what makes me me. Um, so yeah, that was a big wake up point from the career perspective. Um, from a more personal but connected realm. This year has been a year of me realizing just how many unmet needs I have, and how I've so desperately tried to fill those by doing all the things when I could have just said from the start, "Hey! I don't feel very seen right now." Or "Hey, I'm just exhausted and I haven't had fun in weeks. I need to just get out and have some fun." Um, and so the way that came to the surface, it was it was kind of ugly. I was in a group meeting with some guys at church.

Who I feel completely comfortable with and as evidenced by my behavior in this particular meeting. But we were talking about Scripture passage that talks about how God will not allow us to be tested beyond what we can bear. I stop short of taking my Bible and chucking it up the floor. I really wanted to. But I said, "Guys, this is such bullshit. This does not make any sense. God does allow us to be tested beyond what we can bear. Like, I don't see a way out. A lot of times I don't see a way out. I just think this is complete garbage." And then I had their attention, so I kept going. And at that time, my family was walking through a pretty challenging season. And so this group as well intentioned as they were, they would say things to me like, "Oh, we're praying for you. We're interceding for your family. Like you're going to have victory soon." So after telling them that the verse was BS, I just looked at them and said, "I need you to stop praying for me. Like, at some point I need you guys to just step up and be the answer to those prayers that you keep praying. Like, I don't need to know you're praying for me. Like, do something." And then there was this long pregnant pause. And I think it's safe to say this individual is my best friend. I'll use that label. He just looks me square in the eye and he says, "Ben, I hear you. But you never tell us what you need. You're always so busy doing all the things. What do you need?" And it hit me square between the eyes. And I was like "Huh? Well. I'm exhausted. I'm having surgery next week. My family life is just really struggling right now. I can't remember the last time I had a fun night out, so I said I just need some fun." And what do you know? This friend, he's like, "All right, well, set Friday night aside. We're going to go have fun." And he set up a night of axe throwing. And then we went to a bourbon bar and had a flight of cocktails. And then we went and walked around downtown at the Art Prize. It's a big national art competition. So we went and walked around downtown, saw some exhibits, I just look at that experience. And yes, I was very passionate about the verse and what I thought about it. And yes, I certainly did tell my friends to stop praying. But what's behind that? What was behind that was me feeling like I had unmet needs and I never expressed them. So, it was almost as if I was allowing my anger and my frustration. To somehow fill those unmet needs. And it wasn't working. And then my friend is like, "Dude, for real, what do you need? And I told them and he made it happen." That was like, probably one of the most powerful, like life-giving things that somebody's done for me. Like, he heard me. He heard my cry I need, I need to just have some fun. I need a night out where there's no expectation or pressure. And he made it happen and he wouldn't let me pay. And there was a third friend who joined us. He paid for all the drinks and the food and just like. It was that easy. I just had to say what I needed.

Dawn Taylor

That is so beautiful. If nothing else, then I'm so grateful that you got that amazing gift.

Ben Kraker

It was such a gift, and it makes me wonder how many gifts have I missed out on because I'm so concerned with giving that gifts to others. Like, why don't I deserve that gift as well?

Dawn Taylor

I love you, but I love me more. Right? I have so many thoughts going through my head right now. It was she could hear how busy my brain is in a good way, but it's there's so many lessons out of that story, even for people. Listening is number one - ask. Don't assume that anybody actually knows what you need. Don't assume that by them being like, "hHey, I'm struggling." Right? Sometimes it's funny how I have friends that always say like, they're like, "You're the best person in the middle of an emergency." Like you'll just like, step in and do. And I always laugh and I said, you know, I was talking to a friend about this recently and I said, "Yes, I do. I step in and I do. I'm not the person who's going to sit with you and cry with you and grieve with you in that way. Like, I'm not always going to be like that soft, that soft person. I will be 100% if you need that, if that is what you need. But I’m also like the best, 

nd then we went back to her house and I was like, "Okay, cool. Now let me teach you how to make a few easy meals that you can eat within your dietary restrictions right now." And she just laughed at me. She's like, "You're hilarious.' And I said, I think there's been so many times in my life where that's what I needed. Right where I needed somebody to be like, you don't need to figure this out because let me step in is like your logistics coordinator right now and figure this out for you and. You know, if we all did that for someone around us. Right? And not in a way of like, "I'm going to do this every single day and I'm going to give to the point of I'm burnt out again." Like, please, please, listeners, don't. This is not a quote adding more to your plate to burn out. But if you're in the middle of the burnout, if you're in the middle of the overwhelm, if you're in the middle of that. Look at what is it, if there is even one thing that somebody could do, ask for it. But here's the caveat on that. Allow them to say no. If they can't. Allow them to say no if they don't have the capacity, and then ask someone else. Right?

Ben Kraker

Yeah. There's such a fear of asking among, I would say, our generation. Like, asking it just means I need something and I don't want to be needy. I don't want to be. Like, I always feel like if I ask for help, if I say what I need, then suddenly the perception of me from those around me goes from a, you know, is this solid dude. He's always there in a pinch. He loves to help people. He's got a big heart. Well, if I say, "Guys, I need to have some fun." Like, my fear in that moment is they're going to see me as weak. They're going to see me as like, not having it all together and like. So, me asking is going to knock their perception of me down several notches, and I just don't want to deal with that. Like I want to maintain the level I have with them. I worked so hard to get there. But the reality is it's the opposite. Because when I ask for what I need, that increases their perception of me, because I've just been honest with them, and I showed them I was vulnerable enough to show them this is something I really need. And that does far more to build the relationship up than trying to fake it and be all things to everybody else.

Dawn Taylor

Always. And always does. So interesting. Like we are so scared to ask for help. I was going through some crazy treatments, but a year, year and a half, two years ago now. And yeah, it was it started about two years ago and I was, you know, 4 or 5 days a week, up to eight hours a day, doctor's appointments and IV treatments. And my body was shutting down like it was rough. It was a really rough time in my life. And one of my guy friends. One night he called me and he's like, what are you doing? And I said, just finishing off my IV, we're almost done. And he's like, okay. He's like, "What do you need?" And I loved it because he didn't ask, how are you doing? Hey, what's going on? How are you doing? It was none of that. He's like, "What do you need?" And I was like, "I don't even know." And I always I often talk with clients about the infant check. And it's like the minute we're going through something hard or the minute we're feeling overwhelmed, it's like, do the infant check. Have you pooped? Have you peed? Have you had water? Have you been fed? Have you slept? Are your clothes pinching you? Right. Like go through your list of your infant things to be like, okay, basic, basic needs. Not even like anything huge like basic needs. What do you need? And he's like, "Okay, drive to my house. Can you get to my house?" And I said, "Yeah, why?" And he's like, "Just come to my house." And I said, "Okay." And I drove over there and, you know, his wife and his baby were there. And he laid me on his couch with my head on a pillow. He put a blanket over me. He handed me his phone for one of my favorite restaurants, and I pick my order. He's like, just pick what you want, I don't care. Pick what you want. He's like, "So you're not feeling good. You just want your comfort sometimes." And he's like, "I know it's chaotic in my house and it's loud and there's like a hockey game going on in the background, and there's all that, like there's a baby crying." And like, there was all this mayhem, but he's like, "You're not alone. Just hang out. And when you're tired," he's like, "if you have the energy to drive home or back to the hotel where I was staying, he's like, you're good. If not, we'll drive you and drive your vehicle." And I have thanked him so many times for that, that in the middle of those times. It was like, thank you for just taking over one of my basic needs,

Ben Kraker

Right? It makes all the difference.

Dawn Taylor

It makes all the difference.

Ben Kraker

Ueah. And that same friend that asked me, what do you need? So that was the weekend before my surgery that I recently had day after surgery. He texted me and he's like, "Hey, I'm bringing us lunch. What do you want from such and such restaurant?" And I was like, "That's amazing. Thank you." nd so I thought this was going to be like an Uber Eats thing where he picks up the food and drops it off at my door. Oh, no. He came in with his backpack and the food and we finished eating, and he's like, "I got to hop on a meeting for work. It'll be about an hour. Is it okay if I use your office upstairs?" I was like, "Well, I'm not using it, so go ahead." And I'm like, this is really peculiar. My friend brought me lunch. He stayed to hang out and talk. He's upstairs in my space on a meeting, and he's going to come back down. And we're going to keep talking. What is going on? But it's the same thing he saw a need. I need to eat. I'm in pretty rough shape after surgery. So he just inserted himself in. The crazy thing about all of this is I let him were a year ago, it would have been so easy to say, hey, thanks for bringing me lunch. I'm sure you're busy. You can go on your way. So, yeah. Getting your needs met also requires you to be a little awkward sometimes, because that was that was awkward. I mean, who brings work stuff and lunch? And then, yeah, I mean, it's just like, what is going on?

Dawn Taylor

I would. I have no shame. I have zero shame. You know what? I love that though. So for somebody who is dealing with burnout. Whether it's from the church or it's from social media or it's from just life in general. What are some steps that you could give? What are some tips that you could give, some red flags? Something. Something to help them even realize what's going on?

Ben Kraker

Yeah. For me, the things that I did and this is going back to my friendship with Jason. When that fell apart, there were so many things in my life that were falling apart. And it was all because I had so many unmet needs and I was expecting other people to meet those needs, but I never told them what they were. And so that obviously, has an impact on relationships. I just needed a reset. So. I took myself off of social media, I put a post up saying something like under construction and just wrote a note signing out. For now, I need some space. So I did that and I actually stayed committed to it. And I think I was addicted because there were definitely just those withdrawals of, “Oh man, I got to get back on there.” Did pretty good resisting those for the most part. So that was number one. Just stop social media. Like your world, your life is going to go on. Even if you don't have access to your Facebook or your Instagram. And in fact, your life is probably going to improve, or you're going to see your life differently when you're not looking at it through the lens of social media and everybody else. So, that's the biggest one. The second was related to that, and that was silence or turn off all notifications on my phone unless they truly were urgent. Like, I would never silence my wife and my kids. But turning off notifications for all the messaging apps, I don't need to see them live as they come in. Like, I can set aside the time at the end of the day where I pick up my phone and check the messaging apps and get in touch with people, but I don't need to be notified in the moment when somebody reaches out to me and I don't even need to reply in the moment. So, turning off the notifications and giving myself freedom to not be bound to my phone helped a lot too. Those were the two foundational pieces, and by doing those things, I gave myself so much more mental space with which I was able to think about the things that I needed. I was able to voice the pain or the frustration that I was trying to mute by using social media and staying connected to people. Like, I journaled so much during that time and it was so transformational. So maybe it's not social media and maybe it's not the phone notifications, but I guarantee if you're feeling burned out in life, there is something that is overwhelming you and it's not essential. It's not mission critical and you can turn it off. So whatever that is for you. Turn off the demands. Turn off the things that cry out for your attention. Obviously, you can't get rid of everything. Parents, you can't mute your kids, unfortunately. But what are the things that can be muted? What can you put aside? What can you do to give yourself some margin? Because all those things that hold you captive are burning you out, and it's just not worth it. 

Dawn Taylor

I 100% agree with all of the above. And especially with the things burning you out, are based on other people's expectations of us. 

Ben Kraker

Well, man. Yeah. It's when this episode airs, 

Dawn Taylor

it's going to be close. Well, probably close to Christmas. It'll be in the next couple of months. And one of the things that we did a couple of years ago with my husband's side of the family is his youngest brother and wife and kids come to visit, and they're not big Christmas people like, they don't love Christmas. And tied to their own stuff, right? Childhood vacations, different things. Just not, was never really raised in the normal. Like family gathering get together for Christmas in Canada kind of thing, right? It was always in Hawaii and different things that have slowed down. Now they have kids and. I sat down and I realized how overwhelmed I was feeling by Christmas and hosting, because we host every single year, and it's my family and then his family and then my family and his family. Right. And we host. And it's always like large amounts of people and food and long periods of time. And it's incredible. We love it. But it was feeling very, very overwhelming. And I sat down and phoned my sister in law and I was like, “Give me your two things.” And she was like, what was like, “What are your favorite two parts of Christmas?” And she went, “Your chip dip and games.” And I'm like, “Perfect, what are your husband’s?” And his was like, play, watching a movie or something and stuffing or I don't remember what it was. It was like his two things that he loved. And then my husband had his two and I had my two, and I was like, “Those are the eight things we're doing for Christmas.” so, I love lights on a tree, did not put a single decoration on. It was like the lights are my favorite parts. I'm not going to put anything else on it. So we had a decorated, we had like a lit tree and that was it because that was one of my things. One of my things was looking at Christmas lights after Christmas Eve service. So even though they are not church goers, we all went and looked at, like, we went to church. We went and looked at the lights and came back. But we didn't do a turkey dinner. We didn't do any of the big food stuff. We didn't didn't do any of the baking like we did zero presents. We took all of the things off the list that were the normal society's ideas of what Christmas looks like, and we had the best Christmas ever. And I talked to her a few weeks ago because they're coming again this year. And she's like, “That was the greatest Christmas. Can we do that again?” And was like, “Yep, let me know what your two things are and we can do it again.” But even last year, like I had 13 people in my house over and for ten days, we had a very full house, and my husband and I sat down and I was like, “You know, all the things that stressed me out are going to go. So I'm not going to make a turkey dinner.” And he was like, “what?” And I was like, “it's way too much time and prep and work. And that last half an hour before it gets on the table, and then everyone's exhausted and all the dishes that go with it.” And you know what? I don't think one person actually cared, but I smoked a brisket and we had mashed potatoes and cornbread and like, we had this amazing feast. I bought all the baking. I just bought a ton of baking from amazing bakeries through to my fridge and freezer. And I was like, “I'm not cooking, I'm not baking.” And we had a blast. We had so much fun. And it wasn't, the hours and hours and hours and hours of prep and cleanup and wake up early and go to bed late. And the chaos, the chaos that it usually is. And talking to my nieces and nephews about it. They loved it like we had such a good time and so especially this time of year. I find we need to learn how to say “No, not now.” And it might not be a no forever, but it's just right now. No. Not now. 

Ben Kraker

Yeah. 

Dawn Taylor

And that's okay. That is okay. So really look at that. What are the expectatio ns? Are there expectations to go to a million parties and expectations to do all the family photos and expectations to go sledding and do this and do that and right. What if you just didn't? Right?

Ben Kraker

Normalize saying no.

Dawn Taylor

Normalize saying no and figuring out what your intention is behind the behavior that's causing the burnout. What is the need that's needing to be met? Are you doing it because someone else is expecting it of you? Are you doing it to make yourself feel good about something? Or are you doing it, right? What is your intention behind it? Your intention might be pure. Your intention might not actually be horrible. 

Ben Kraker

There's no other way to get that intention, though that doesn't involve burning yourself out.

Dawn Taylor

Oh, And knowing that at the end of the day, you can actually choose the one. You don't need to feel shame for that.

Ben Kraker

Yes. You know, from the Christian perspective, so many scriptures get twisted. Everybody says, well, I need to love my neighbor. Like, that should be my priority.

Well, what's the whole verse say? It says, love your neighbor. How? As you love yourself. My interpretation is you can't love your neighbor if you don't love yourself. If you're not taking time to fill your own cup, how dare you try to fill somebody else's? You're just going to be pouring nothing into them and that's harmful. That just perpetuates burnout. So love yourself like it's okay if God loves you deeply and unconditionally. Perhaps we should do the same for ourselves and allow ourselves grace, and allow ourselves whatever it is we need to fill up that bucket so that we can love our neighbor. And there's another verse that I've heard used, talking about how we should think of ourselves with sober judgment and don't think more highly of yourself than you ought. It's those last three words that always get me. He doesn't say, “Don't think highly of yourselves.” It just says, “Don't think more highly of yourself than you ought.” Like there's a standard. It's okay to think highly of yourself. Just don't overdo it. That's all it's saying. It's not saying anything about rejecting yourself or rejecting who you are, or rejecting your needs in order to elevate other people. No, the baseline is it's okay to think highly of yourself. Just don't think more highly than you should.

Oh, I love it. You and I could talk about this all day, but out of respect for your time, let's do a few quick closing questions. If anybody wants to get a hold of Ben, though, we'll put his contact info in the show notes. If you had to describe yourself in one sentence, what would it be? A word, a sentence, a phrase, a quote. 

Ben Kraker 

That's a really good question. Um, I think I would go back to the, there was a personality test that I took. The fact that I have to go back and look at it is funny. I'll do the ones I can remember. Restore. Uh, connectedness. Um, those two for sure. Like, I see myself as somebody who has the ability to restore what's been broken to help people and chiefly myself to be able to identify in my own life. What are the desert areas that need to be transformed into wellsprings? And as I do that for myself, it enables me to do it for others. So restoration is a big deal. And then connectedness. I'm always looking for, how is this thing connected to that thing? Or what's the commonality between me and this customer that I'm working with at work, or this individual who just joined my group? What do they have in common with the rest of us? My brain is just wired for connection, whether it's relational or spatial connection matters to me because it helps me to realize that I'm not in this by myself, that I'm surrounded by some incredible people. 

I would dare say even you, Dawn, I mean like. This is a pretty cool connection that we had here tonight. So restore and connection, I would say, are the two words that describe me.

Dawn Taylor

I love it. What is one thing you spend a silly amount of money on? 

Ben Kraker

Uh, well, behind me, I have this little diffuser on my other desk over there. I love essential oils, and I love the smell. And this diffuser has, like, an LED light on it. And it shows the vapor as if it were like flames. Um, so I like things that help me, um, I don't know. I think things that I find cool, I spend a lot of money on Amazon is really what I'm trying to say, that just stand out to me as cool and novel. I love to collect those things. Amazing. And what is the last one? What is the number one place that you want to go on your bucket list item? Right now you're on your bucket list.

Ben Kraker

Um. you know, it's a place that I've been. But it's a place that I treasure and has such a special place in my heart. Sisters Rock State Park in, it's close to Brookings, Oregon. Think it's I can't remember the name of the city, but it was just a place that was introduced to me by  a hitchhiker, of all people, that was driving to the coast, and they were like, “We have to stop over here.” And I was like, “Do you need to use the bathroom?” And she was like, “No, we just need to stop. I need to show you something.” And I was like, This woman is crazy. Why did you pick her up?” But we get out of the car and we take this trail down to these beautiful rock formations. Kind of similar to what you saw in Cannon Beach, but like times ten, like there's sea caves and there's just it's just magical type of place. 

Dawn Taylor

And now I want to go there.

Ben Kraker

Yeah. So I just love it. I've been there probably 3 or 4 times and it's so out of the way like, there's no reason you would go to Gold Port, I think is the name of the city. It's just a little podunk city between Brookings and California and. But man, it's beautiful. So if I could find a way to get there quickly, I would go in a heartbeat.

Ben Kraker

Oh my goodness. Okay, so I don't know about everybody else listening. We're all going to be googling this place now and trying to figure out how to get there. Because I want to place, thank you, thank you, thank you, Ben, for hanging out with with us today and for the listeners. I hope that's something you heard at home that maybe shifted to something inside of you and that you reach out to myself, to somebody else, to a friend, to a pastor. Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. Reach out and ask for support. Ask for help. Ask for what it is you need, and give people an opportunity to show up for you in ways you could never imagine. Join us again in two weeks for another amazing conversation. Please tell your friends. The more people that feel understood and seen and heard, the better in our world today. Check out the show notes located at the Taylor Waka for more information and for all of Ben's contact information. So that if you have questions about any of these things or just you're like, hey dude, what was that place again? And I don't want to listen to the podcast, whatever. Just if you need to reach out, there will be contact information there. Subscribe now on Apple, Spotify or wherever you listen to your podcasts. And if you love the show, please, please, please leave a rating and review. See you guys in a couple of weeks. 

Content Warning: 

In this episode, we discuss some topics that listeners may find disturbing such as loss and trauma.

 

Why you would want to listen to this episode…

While we’ve seen it portrayed everywhere from movies to TV, the life of a military spouse isn’t exactly as it’s made out to be. However, today’s guest Jenny Ryce is nonetheless thankful for all that’s happened in her life. As a military wife, she shares her story of how she navigated through life and approached it with caution knowing her husband was out in the field protecting their country. She may not have learned to defuse bombs or crawl through landmines, but Jenny’s unique journey to self-discovery and parenthood is both challenging and compelling in its own way. 

Who this for

If you've ever wondered what it's like to live with your significant other as someone who serves their country, this episode is for you. It’s a unique look at military culture and the adjustments Jenny and her husband had to make - from the limited ways of communication to parenting their children in an unorthodox way. It’s an interesting listen for those intrigued by military life. 

About Dawn Taylor

Dawn Taylor is the professional ass-kicker, hope giver, life strategist, trauma specialist, and all-around badass. Dawn's journey into helping others heal began when she took her personal recovery from the trauma she experienced in her life into her own hands. While at times unconventional, Dawn’s strategic methods have helped hundreds heal from traumas such as issues related to infidelity,  overcoming addiction,  working through PTSD from sexual, emotional, and physical abuse, as well as helping cult survivors thrive. Dawn’s work has empowered entrepreneurs, stay-at-home moms, and CEOs alike to be superheroes in their own lives. Having completed thousands of hours of training from many professional programs, including the Robbins Madanes Training Institute, Dawn’s blunt honesty will challenge your thinking, broaden your awareness, and help you achieve the outstanding results you are worthy of.

Connect with Dawn here at The Taylor Way: Consultation Call | Website | Facebook | Instagram | LinkedIn

Get to know Dawn on a deeper level through her book! Order Here

P.S. I Made It, is a powerful story that grabs you through its lack of pretension and honesty. Every page reveals another layer of curious wonder at both Dawn’s life and the power of hope that moves within each of us. Dawn’s hope is that you use this book as a resource to deal with your struggles. Share it with someone who needs it. We all want to feel like someone understands what it’s like to suffer through something and – come out the other side. She describes her life as “horrifically beautiful and beautifully horrific. 

Guest Bio

Jenny Ryce is a PCC Accredited Executive Coach, speaker, podcast host of Winning with Wellness, bestselling author and the President of Business from the Heart Awards

Jenny is passionate about connecting others to the power of mindset and wellness. When she is not pursuing her professional passions, Jenny can be found spending time in nature, getting grounded and finding inspiration.

Jenny is the proud mother to two amazing daughters and the wife of a military veteran. You will often hear her say that they fuel her passion.

It is time to redefine your wellness and experience first-hand what Winning with Wellness can do. Jenny believes that you should always capitalize on your greatest asset, YOU

Guest Social Links

Website - https://businessfromtheheart.ca

Coaching Instagram - @jennyrycecoaching 

Business Instagram - @businessfromtheheartawards 

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Views Expressed, Legal and Medical Disclaimer

This podcast (including any/all site pages, blog posts, blog comments, forums, videos, audio recordings, etc.) is not intended to replace the services of a physician, nor does it constitute a doctor-patient relationship. Information is provided for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional medical advice. You should not use the information on this podcast for diagnosing or treating a medical or health condition. If you have or suspect you have an urgent medical problem, promptly contact your professional healthcare provider. Any application of the recommendations in this podcast/website is at the listener/reader's discretion. The views and opinions expressed are those of guests and do not necessarily reflect the opinion or policy of Dawn Taylor, The Taylor Way and or its Associates. The before mentioned are not liable for any direct or indirect claim or loss. 

Transcript

Dawn Taylor

Hello, hello. I'm your host, Dawn Taylor, and today we are talking to my person, my girl, my right hand wrangler of this shit show. Jenny, I have been asking Jenny forever if we could record this episode because she has a really different life story than a lot of people, but one that I think that we're all very interested by, curious by. We've seen portrayed in books and TV and movies and all of those things. But to get a very real, vulnerable inside perspective is something different. So topic today, military wife and mom behind the scenes. So before we get started, I'll tell you a little bit about her so that you can fall in love with her the way I have. Jenny is a mom. She's a wife, she's a coach, she's an avid outdoorsman. I've never met anybody who gives the way she does, loves as hard as she does, or shows up for people in her world the way that she does. She is a coach. She has her own podcast. She is just a little powerhouse and she's the person that keeps everything going in my little world. So welcome to the show, Jenny.

Jenny Ryce

Thanks for having me. The last time I was here, you thought you're interviewing me and I took it over and interviewed you.

Dawn Taylor

I know, and I was like, okay, that's fine, but we still have to interview you.

Jenny Ryce

You have to do the podcast.

Dawn Taylor

So I've watched the show Army Wives. We've all like, seen the book, read the book, seeing the TV, seeing the movies, whatever, where it portrays life as an army wife or a military wife. Right? Okay. For starters, can we differentiate what the terms are?

Jenny Ryce

Well, a lot of things are very different from American, to the US. So, military wives get lumped in. You know, there is a border difference just between terms in reference to skill sets, ranking all those kind of things from American to Canadian. So, I'm a Canadian military wife. So, let's start with that. So our you know our roles and lives are very, very different. I have never watched an episode of Military Wives. It's one of those things, or Army Wives, I just can't do it. Probably because it would, I don't know, I don't want to judge. I haven't watched it, but I've seen like some of those Housewives shows and I can't handle watching people treat each other that way on TV. It makes me wild.

Dawn Taylor

So to watch, okay, so avoid it. It would also probably trigger you a little. Right? So you were not just a military wife of how many years has it been?

Jenny Ryce

So my husband and I, we've been very fortunate to be married for well, I always say I've been dating my boyfriend for 31 years and we've been married for 29, so we hit the 30, will be 30 years married next year, so, or in 2024 depending on when you happen to be listening to this episode. So we're we're very fortunate. You know, I'm one of the OG wives when we go to reunions and that there's the OG wife group and then there's the, you know, the ones that didn't make it, right. They're just as lovely, don't get me wrong. But there's only a handful of us that are OGs, for sure.

Dawn Taylor

Well, I'm hearing the little bit that I've heard about what life was like through all of those years where he was deployed and all of that. I can see why. I can see why there aren't very many of the OGs. But, you're not just that. You also have two adult daughters that are also in the Army.

Jenny Ryce

Yes. Okay. So these are some terms that we could we could share. Forgot to answer your question. See I'm not a very good guest. I'm great at interviewing, but I'm not a very good guest. So when we think of military, military is like the umbrella. So, the Canadian Armed Forces, the umbrella is military and there's elements within the military. So, my husband is Army, there's Air Force and then there's Navy. So my daughters are Navy, my husband's army. And actually, not only is my daughter's Navy, my nephew is Navy as well as my son in law is Navy. So we have a bit of a legacy going on. And yeah, we cornered the market in the Navy. And of course, there's always these jokes at the table about Army versus Navy, etcetera, etcetera. It was like, "How did I produce Navy? I'm Army." I'm like, "Honey, they didn't want to be in a trench. Come on now."  So that that might help, so yeah. Overall encompassing military. If you say military you're covered.

Dawn Taylor

Hey, this is very good to know because how many times if I even said it wrong and you've explained this to me and I'm like, "Okay, sorry." Which one is the overarching umbrella one again? Okay. So, listeners, Canadian, if you were Canadian, it is just say military, just a military. They won't be too offended.

Jenny Ryce

Well in, you know we definitely, it's to Google it. There's just so much information about but also to within each element there's specific traits. So, my husband was a combat engineer. And what that meant is he's an explosive ordnance disposal expert. So, for those of you I've never watched the movie because I couldn't watch it with him because I knew he'd be like, "It doesn't do that. It doesn't." Anyway, watching movies where things blow up with your husband when he's an explosive expert kind of wrecks everything. So I know what doesn't blow up a certain way and what does move a certain way. So he's a mind specialist and an explosive specialist. So, there's every single element has different skill sets. So, in the Navy my daughters are one is a logistics officer and the other is an image technician. So, very different skill sets. But they're all under elements. So, just say military, it's easier.

Dawn Taylor

So, been knowing your husband's like the bomb guy and the bomb guy. The explosions guy. So let's talk about, like, I have so many questions. I'm guessing you know this, but. when you first met him, was he in the military?

Jenny Ryce

Yes. And it's so fascinating because I, so he lived in a military town. My grandparents lived in a military town, and I actually came to the live in the military town. Usually, when there's a base there, they call it a military town. In reality, there's a lot of other things that go on into town. In a town like Edmonton, there's more than just the military base in Edmonton. However, you know, when you're in the military world, it's the military town. So, I had never dated somebody in the military, you have to realize too, I was 20 years old when I met my husband. I was young, very young. I'd never dated anyone in the military. Didn't know the difference between dating somebody in the military and not dating anyone in the military. So, he was actively, he was relatively new. He had just come back from being in Kuwait the first time for I call it Bush one, Bush one, and Bush two. So he was in the wheat in 91, and he had just come back and we had met and we hit it off like a house on fire. He was like instantly my best friend.

Dawn Taylor

And hey, you guys, really quick. Yeah. Really quick. Her husband looks exactly like Shane on the last season of Love is Blind. Like, exactly like him. Okay, I'm not posting photos because he's real private, but you guys need to know that just you have a mental image as you're hearing this, okay? Keep going.

Jenny Ryce

So, yeah. So apparently that's what Dawn thinks. 1.2s So that's what he looks like

Dawn Taylor

Or Val Kilmer.

Jenny Ryce

When we were dating. Yeah. He looked like Val Kilmer from Top Gun. The first round. The OG of Top Gun and occasionally now he gets the John Dunn reference. But anyway, so I think my husband's a babe but that's, that's you know you guys can decide yourselves. So, yeah, I didn't know anything about dating a military person and okay can we talk about this term that people tell you? "You knew what you were doing." Nobody knows what they're getting into. Nobody knows. How can you know if you don't know? Right. I didn't know what it meant. I didn't know what being married or dating a soldier looked like or what that meant. So everybody, please, I beg you, not only give yourself grace, but give other people grace. Nobody knows what they're doing till they're in it. And even then, 90% of us are just scraping through and trying to figure it out to begin.

Dawn Taylor

How true is that?

Jenny Ryce

So yeah, I had and because I didn't live in said town, I grew up in a large city. I had no idea. I didn't know anything about dating a military guy. I just knew that we were like fast friends, and we had so many of the same interests, and I was madly in love with him. And it, like, it was one of those sparks, right? That hits. And I would move. I would move mountains for him. And I knew it. And I still I still feel that way today, which is really cool. It's not been easy though.

Dawn Taylor

Anyone who's been married for like six weeks, I'm like, "No, no, no." Yeah. It's not easy if we've survived this long. We've been through hell and back.

Jenny Ryce

Yeah. You've done you've slogged through the mud. Yeah, yeah. You've literally dug a trench or something.

Dawn Taylor

Like we've been in the trenches at this point. Yeah.

Jenny Ryce

Yeah, totally.

Dawn Taylor

I do love that we both still love our husbands so much. Yeah. It's one of the coolest things of working with you is like, we just have this bond over that,

Jenny Ryce

Which is fortunate because I know in this day and age we're rare. We're very blessed.

Dawn Taylor

So rare.

Jenny Ryce

And when I say that, I say it. You know, with immense pride. But I also know it's a lot of work, like my husband's my job. He's one of my jobs. You know, I say this often, especially to my young ladies. And, you know, my oldest is in a relationship and married recently is. We spend our whole lives being trained on things. We go to school to be trained. We get a job, we get trained, we buy a car, we have a manual, all those kind of things. We are never educated and trained on how to be a good spouse, or how to be a good friend, or how to be a good daughter. None of that. It's all like, "Hey, you should just figure this out. So it's, being in a relationship is a lot of work. And if you don't put work in, you know, I always say the grass that you fertilize is green. People like, you know, it might look shiny and beautiful often, you know, over that other fence. But I tell you what, there's crab weed in that sucker, too. When you get up close, if you don't pay attention.

Dawn Taylor

I love that you say that because I often say the grass is only greener on the other side because there's a lot of shit there.

Jenny Ryce

It's true though, you don't like the good stuff, right? You take your time, you weed your garden, you nurture, do those kind of things. But be kind to yourself too, in relationships because you're learning. And one thing that I've learned is to remind myself and Scott and I work really hard on that, is to remember that we're tackling the problem together. It's not us against each other. It's like, "Okay, this is our problem. What do we need to do to tackle the problem?" Don't get me wrong, it took time to get to that process and to learn that. But again, I said I was so young, like, Scott and I grew up together. We built a life together, and if I look at my age now, I'm 52 and I'm not ashamed to say that I'm pretty proud of that. When I look at my life, he's been in my life longer than out of my life, if that makes sense. Right? So it's one of the gifts of digging in for the long haul is, you know, you learn the little things, you learn the this the smiles, you learn, you learn the "Oh, that's pissed him off." You don't mean nothing has to be said in this moment.

Dawn Taylor

I had one of those this morning where I was talking to a friend here for coffee, and I was like, "I should upgrade his seat on the plane for his trip he's on next week." And I was like, "Nah." And she's herself. And she goes, "Really?" I was like, "No, I'm mad at him." She's like, "Isn't he like 6'2''?" I was like, "Yeah." She's like, "You're going to make him suffer." I was like, "When we check him in on Sunday, I'll decide." She just started laughing. See where we're at. I know I was like, we'll see where we're at Sunday. All right, so you just come back. We're going to do, actually, an entire podcast. We're going to convince my husband to do an entire podcast with me where we're going to talk what it's actually like to be married and in a relationship that long. But, like the good, the bad, the ugly, the stuff that most people would probably be shocked that one of us will say, we're going to go there, we're going to fully go there. That's going to be coming out. Depending on when you're listening to this in the new year, it'll be in the new year in 2024.

Jenny Ryce

2024, depending when you're listening.

Dawn Taylor

Yes, 2024. But let's get back to this. So, you guys meet, you fall in love. And what does life look like?

Jenny Ryce

You know what? Life is actually really blissful. I mean, except for the fact that all of a sudden I'm in love with this man I never see because he's away all the time. That was a really hard adjustment, was, you know, figuring out, like, "Oh my gosh, I never see him because he was away quite a bit on training."

Dawn Taylor

What do you mean by away quite a bit? Like, what does that look like? Because for some people, being away from their spouse for a weekend is too much. I remember one time when Chad was gone for seven months and only home for three days in seven months, and I was like, "Yeah, that was a hard one." And people were like, shook by that. So for definition's sake, what does that look like when he was gone a lot?

Jenny Ryce

So I figured it out. I did the math once, and I would say for the first ten years of our relationship, he was gone eight months every year on average is kind of how it worked. Yeah, a lot. So he was either away training. He was either way overseas in a support role, whether UN peacekeeper or, you know, doing mind clearing. He was part of the ice storm going in and cleaning up that and helping with that. So, just, yeah, away a lot which can be, that's part of the stuff. When people say you knew what you were doing when you got on board, it's like, "No, no, I really didn't." You know, you don't know what you don't know. So, that was part of the challenging thing. It's interesting because I made a commitment when we when we started dating. When he asked me to marry him, which he came, he didn't want to ask me to marry him, which I didn't realize, of course, until he got back. When he got back from deployment, he was over in Bosnia and he got back in '92, and he asked me to marry him. And he's like, "I didn't want to ask you before I left in case something happened to me." Which unfortunately, in his line of work, if you make a misstep

Dawn Taylor

You don't get second chances.

Jenny Ryce

Yeah, things don't go well. And unfortunately, we have suffered loss and and experience that firsthand. And it's challenging. So, when he asked me to marry him, I was like, "Hell yeah!" I said, "But only if you're in this for the long haul." I come from my parents, separated when I was six years old, and I wanted to be, I did not want to follow in that pattern, that footstep. So, I was like, "If you're all in, I'll do it with you. But we have to be all in." And he too comes from a split family and was like, "Yeah, we're only doing this once." So, I don't know if it was naivety or if it was, like, pure will or arrogance or what, but I was like, "I'm never getting divorced."

Dawn Taylor

I'm gonna say probably a combo of all of right. Knowing you, probably a combo of all of these.

Jenny Ryce

I'm like, I'm pretty frickin' stubborn and I'm I'm pretty driven and have high standards for myself. So I was like, no, this is this is a non-negotiable. Like, if you're my person, I've picked you and I'm in. And ine thing that was really hard about the separation, and I know you didn't ask this question, but I want to share it. One of the things that was hard, but also looking back from who I am today. It gave me space to become me. If that makes sense.

Dawn Taylor

100% it does.

Jenny Ryce

Right? So, because I was in this really deep relationship at a very young age. I could have easily swallowed myself up into that relationship, which in truth, I did. But, because we had those gaps in time, I had to really dig in and figure out who I was. And I had to be strong because like I said, you know, we did experience loss and trauma and and it isn't like, your husband just goes away and or your spouse or your loved one or your children or whoever it is, they don't just go away and go to work. And my husband is climbing around a minefield. Right? That's not a normal day at work for the average person.

Dawn Taylor

No.

Jenny Ryce

And so there's high risk. And you hear things on the news and it makes you, like, literally become paralyzed in fear because you're praying that the names you hear aren't your people. Whether it's your loved one, your best friends, whoever it is.

Dawn Taylor

So can we talk about that for a sec?

Jenny Ryce

Yeah, absolutely. 

Dawn Taylor

So, Jenny and I were talking about this a little while ago. We were discussing, you know, data recording and stuff, and I said, "I wonder what most people don't realize is this is pre-cell phone, pre-emails, pre-FaceTime." Like, guys, this is pre-all of that.

Jenny Ryce

Yeah, it was rough.

Dawn Taylor

All of that. And so, it's not like it is today where you're talking like your daughter can talk to her husband every day. And, they have cell phones like a Skype. And they can FaceTime and they can do all these things. Right? It's it was a completely different world. So, not only were you. I mean, of all the roles to have in the military, the guy that takes care of the bombs, right? The bomb guy. I'm going to just call him the bomb guy.

Jenny Ryce

He loves that. That's great.

Dawn Taylor

Okay. It's not the official name because I can't remember it ever. But, like, the bomb guy, that, when you watch the news, which we all know is not. always factual - is that a politically correct way to put it?

Jenny Ryce

You learn that real quick.

Dawn Taylor

You learn that super fast. Even back in '92. Right? But what was it even like to communicate with him? And when he did go for deployment, how long was he gone?

Jenny Ryce

So, he would, generally speaking, they would have to go anywhere from 6 to 8 weeks for pre-deployment training. So, they would take them to wherever, which obviously wasn't at home. And they would simulate and experience scenarios. et cetera, to be overseas. And then then he would come home, he would maybe have 2 or 3 weeks off and then it would deploy for six months at minimum usually. And in that scenario, we would get in the middle of the six weeks, six months. Part of me, he would get two weeks off. And whether I would come to him or he would come to me, we would get a two week vacation in between to connect. And then that would happen. So, I'm just thinking of this week. We got married in April, and then 20 days later he deployed overseas and

Dawn Taylor

Wow.

Jenny Ryce

So that was, you know, rough.

Dawn Taylor

And how far in advance do you hear about deployments, like, how much?

Jenny Ryce

Put it this way, we were supposed to be getting married in July and we had to reschedule. We had everything booked, planned, organized, and we rescheduled the wedding for April. And it turned out to be the most beautiful, small, well, small. I mean, 120 people turned out to be absolutely beautiful wedding. Nothing like we had planned and it was totally meant to be. So, you can, depends on the situation. Like, I was putting a roast on the table when the ice storms happened and he got a call and was gone an hour later. Deployment. Because of the pre training and all of that, we usually have a few months' notice.

Dawn Taylor

Oh okay.

Jenny Ryce

It could even be up to a year. It just depends on what's happening in theaters, what is another term, it's in theater. So depending on you know what the scenario is. And obviously this is a while ago. So, things have changed. Things are, you know, especially with the news and the media and things like that. But, back then, to make a long distance phone call just like normal to my family was $2 a minute. I mean, we were young, we had no money. So it's like you didn't, don't get me wrong, they didn't charge us in the military to get a phone call from them. That was not, I don't want that to be. But in those days, every ten days we would get, he would get a ten-minute phone call privilege. We never knew when it was coming. We never knew what time. And we never knew what day. And I can't even tell you when you miss the phone call what that felt like, because of course, you'd get a voicemail of "Hey." Because, back then you had the machine that you push the button and you go to voicemail. So, it was like a tape recorder.

Dawn Taylor

Little answering machines.

Jenny Ryce

Yeah, but if we were fortunate enough to be home and get the call, it was absolutely magical and there'd be a delay. So you'd have to pause so the words would come through, and then so you wouldn't talk over top of each other. And we would always time it because the phone cut off at ten minutes. So, it didn't matter if you were in mid-thought or anything. You got ten minutes and when your time was up, it was up.

Dawn Taylor

Wow.

Jenny Ryce

And so there was nothing worse than not getting to say goodbye. So we always cut it, like 30 seconds short so that we could say goodbye. And at the time, that felt like such a gift, right? Because. So, I wrote him a letter every single night. Every single night. I wrote him a letter. And I would bulk send them and I did that up like pretty much every single tour he's ever been on. I wrote a letter every single night about what was happening, because communication didn't start really changing until near the end of his retirement. And then, you could email, I mean, that wasn't even an option back then. Like you couldn't even email. I mean, girl, I lived without a cell phone. Like, we didn't have those years. Yeah, we didn't have a cell phone when we were married. That didn't, those didn't exist. You had a house phone. And if you really like, with it, you had call waiting so two people could call you at the same time. That was it, right? So yeah, communication was challenging. It was challenging. But I'll tell you, nothing held you together like those ten minutes, telling you it was worth every second of it. But, when you got home and you missed that call, I'm telling you, nothing hit you harder in the gut than missing that phone call. It was gold. That phone call was gold.

Dawn Taylor

Now you wait another ten days.

Jenny Ryce

Yeah, and that's providing something isn't happening that they can't call.

Dawn Taylor

Yeah. So funny question. How did he decide who to call? Because, like, I'm guessing his mom wanted a phone call once in a while or, you know, someone like that.

Jenny Ryce

I was very fortunate. He was really close with his dad, and I was really close with his dad. So his dad knew that I was Scott's person for life, and I would just immediately phone and give all the updates, like, this is what he said. And occasionally when I couldn't answer, they got the call and they knew it and they were okay with it and they understood. But, you know, those are, parents are supposed to do that, right? They're supposed to understand. So, I was very fortunate that, yeah, his dad was one of my best friends. He was exceptional. I was very lucky. Very lucky that way.

Dawn Taylor

It's amazing.

Jenny Ryce

Yeah.

Dawn Taylor

So deployments are happening. How often was he deployed?

Jenny Ryce

He was deployed, so what kind of tend to work out is he would deploy, this is an average okay. Like every other year, because of course he'd have to come home, he'd come home, and then there'd be courses that he would need to take, which of course were never in town. So, he would have to go to different posting locations for six months or eight months or two months or whatever for training in different areas to advance his his skill set and his career and things like that. So yeah. The deployments, if they were happening, were, you know, every other year, every couple of years, those kind of things, it really just depends. Unfortunately, the world was kind of really messy. I mean, it still is. Let's be real. But at the time in my life, when I was going through it, it was kind of messy back then. So, yeah. Yeah. So he was gone a lot, a lot. I remember. You know when one of the days when it was really hard asking myself like. "I am madly in love with a man that I never see. Is my life better with him or without him?" And it was. The answer was always, it's better with him. So the heartache when you can check that balance to that, it's like, "No, this is just, this is where I tap into my resilience and figure out who I am." And, you know. And figure it out. Like, you know, I've got to be okay in this. I've got to thrive in this. And what's cool now is my husband's in my life because I want him here, not because I need him. I figured out real quick, real young as a single quote-unquote single mom. Which of course, no disrespect to single moms out there. They work really hard. But I was I kept woman because my husband, even though I was single, was my husband. I still wasn't alone. Do you know what I mean? But I was alone a lot. Um. I could do anything. You ask me, I can do it. You tell me on. I'll figure it out. Like, the only reason I don't know is because I don't know yet. Yeah. Having to move. Have no friends or family. The middle of some town.

Dawn Taylor

Okay, so let's talk about the logistics of this. So you get married, he deploys within months or within a month.

Jenny Ryce

Yeah.

Dawn Taylor

He's gone. How long was he gone? That first time?

Jenny Ryce

He was gone six months. They actually, the local newspaper did a did an article on us because back then, of course, newspaper was huge. And yeah, they, we were they did a complete article and then actually for a wedding gift or an anniversary gift, it was because it was after the wedding and anniversary gift. They came. I didn't realize they were at the, when he came home from that deployment. Okay. You want to talk, you know, have you ever had that feeling in your body where you tears come out of your face and you can't even stop it? Like, you're just like, your body just is, like, in release because you have, you don't know how much stress or fear or all those things you've held until that person, that bus came around the corner with them all loaded on it. And my face I couldn't, like. I wasn't even sobbing. It was just like pouring out of my face. And of course, what looks better than a young 21 year old?

Dawn Taylor

Let's hope you were a Kim Kardashian cryer.

Jenny Ryce

I was super popular with the paparazzi, and I don't even remember seeing them. All I remember is seeing him and grabbing him and not letting go. And when I think back, I remember seeing flashes because of course, back then it was all about flashing bulbs and all those kind of things. So, that was six months. That was a long haul. It was a long haul. I did get to go over and see him. We did our honeymoon in Greece. We met in Rome and that was the most beautiful two weeks. It was so incredible. But, it was really hard to say goodbye. Really, really hard to say goodbye. But, I'm so thankful for that opportunity. That was, again, something afforded to us from the military. We had to pay to go and all that kind of but we were given the opportunity and and military life is pretty amazing. If you if you align with the right friends and the right people and of course, the right spouse, right? Life is amazing if you align with the right spouse.

Dawn Taylor

But yeah, so he comes back six months, seven months into marriage, he comes back again because it's what we see on TV and reading books and magazines and everything else. I remember watching Army Wives, that's what I'll equate it to, because I always found that show so interesting and thinking like, "How would I react in those moments?"

Jenny Ryce

And I'll watch it just because I didn't even know it existed.

Dawn Taylor

It's very interesting, but it's.though, you know, there's all the different storylines. You know, some guys come back and they're fine. They're like, nope, that's Army. And now I'm home and it's like a light switch is flipped and they just get back to life and other guys come home and they have such complex PTSD and trauma and they don't know how to cope, and they don't know how to step back into civilian life, and they don't know how to deal with that without breaking any of his confidence, obviously, out of respect for Scott, because it's his story, is that something you had to deal with?

Jenny Ryce

You know what's so fascinating? And I think this is a statement that covers everybody. Nobody goes on deployment and comes back the same. Yeah. Nobody does. And I was super blessed to not only have Scott in my life, but I had some incredible inherited brothers because of Scott, some of my best friends. Actually, my house was a revolving door, so if Scott was overseas, all the buddies were over at the house like, and I was kind of their sister confidant. Nobody comes back from a tour without something. They never come back the same.

Dawn Taylor

There's no way. There's no way.

Jenny Ryce

There's no freaking way. Some, like you say, come back with it. Better equipped to compartmentalize the challenge. With that as an adult grown-up, now when you compartmentalize and you shove things in a box, we all know that that box blows up eventually. No pun intended, but maybe a little.

Dawn Taylor

I like to play on words. Yeah. Well done, well done. Jenny.

Jenny Ryce

Um, so what I learned because I was a safe home for so many that went overseas and came back is that I just had to create a space for conversation and because everybody came back different, if that makes sense, and everybody handled it in different ways. I had friends that were contemplating suicide. I had friends that were had attachment issues. I had friends that were couldn't go out in public and then I had friends who life's a party, and they were just living their best life at the time. I know this is kind of like a loose answer to your question. The key that I learned is create safe space, no judgment, and just allow people to share their stories and love on them. Because we're all put in situations. And again, I've heard people say, they say this about firemen and police officers and. It's like, well, they're paid to go into that burning building. They're paid to stand in front of that gun. If you seriously believe that, I challenge you to do what they do. I challenge you to crawl through a minefield. I challenge you and you tell me. That is an inherent part of a human being that isn't in everybody? I'm a wife and a mom and a best friend to these type of individuals. I cannot climb through a minefield. No, I can't do it. There's no fricking way. And I'm telling you, I can do pretty much anything I put my mind to.

Dawn Taylor

No, but it takes a different personality and a different mindset and a different everything to be able to do that.

Jenny Ryce

To be willing to switch off your own life value, survival mode so that you save someone else. Like their stories. I don't know if I'm able to share, but, and I won't with detail because for obvious reasons, but I know of stories where people that I care about deeply and not just my husband, but people I care about deeply that risked their lives to save people they don't even know. Yeah, children they don't know and they're not mandated to do it. It's not like they were ordered to do it. They did it anyway. That is a powerful, like, if you ask me, I'm proud to be a Canadian. Hell, yes. Yeah, because our Canadian soldiers, men and women are exceptional human beings. Are they broken? Unfortunately. It's the job. Unfortunately, it's a job. You can't see and experience that kind of trauma and expect to come out unscathed might not show up for 30 or 40 years, but it shows up always, always shows up. It always shows up and it changes your trajectory. I look at my life, oh my word. Did I ever think I was going to live in like four different provinces have two kids, one in B.C. and one in New Brunswick? I have a nine year gap between my girls. They were supposed to be two years apart. Like, I could never have predicted any of that and I wouldn't change a thing. It's so many things.

Dawn Taylor

So, a couple of things I want to talk about is kids. So your husband had a very. I don't know if different, but he had a different idea on what was and was not appropriate, on how and when and where and what and everything when it came to your kids, which is what resulted in the nine year gap.

Jenny Ryce

Yeah. So Scott was seriously like he knew because of his job. He's missing things in our our lives, right? Like, I can't remember how many anniversaries, he's missed or my birthdays or those kind of things, but we had lots of friends that missed the birth of their children. And he was like, "I don't care what happens. I am never missing my children coming into this world." And so hence the nine year gap you kind of got.

Jenny Ryce

You got a plan.

Dawn Taylor

Try planning around a deployment that could change or not change. So we, you know, we we thought we had the cycle figured out. He was set to deploy. We're like "Okay." You know and of course everything has to align. You don't just like tick the box and you're pregnant, right? Like, you know, things have to align and we we're we're like, "Okay, so this is the time bracket that we'll start trying etcetera, etcetera for number two." And we're like just coming up onto that time frame which would give, like, because of course it's got to work. Then you got to have, you got to, like, make the baby grow. Yeah, there's the timeline.

Dawn Taylor

There is.

Jenny Ryce

And then so he, in theory, should have been home when our second was born. So, they all of a sudden - nope. Deployment's cancelled. You're not going. You're slated on the next one. So, I was like, okay, no matter what we do here, you're not going to be home if we follow this, this path.

Dawn Taylor

Yeah.

Jenny Ryce

So, before you know it, I don't know how many tours later, we're living in New Brunswick and. We're at a nine year gap, and I'm pregnant with baby number two at 33. So, because I was having my kids young, right? I had my first at 25. I wanted them young so that I can enjoy them and be fitful. You know what I have to say? This nine year gap thing, it rocks. People need to try this more often. I'm telling you, there's something magical about it because I raised my oldest, young, outgoing. Not that I'm not going now, but young and and free-spirited and all this kind of stuff. And then I have this mature wisdom about me for number two, although I do feel a bit, you know, that you see those memes. It's like the first broke the pathway for the young one to get away with everything. I'm like, "How could she not?" There's a nine year gap. Like, dude wasn't the same woman back then. Like, I'm like, "I'm sorry, kiddo. Yes, this was you." And it's interesting. The girls were raised completely different. This is the wildest part. So, our oldest lived the military experience. Her dad was away. Substantially, quite a bit. Missed a lot of the firsts. Actually. He only missed one of her birthdays, ironically enough.

Dawn Taylor

Wow.

Jenny Ryce

Yeah, only the first one, which she didn't know anyway, so we're fine with it. He knew it. It was hard for him, but I'm like, "She doesn't even know, it's fine." And you know, she lived, she moved, I think, five different times. And then our youngest moved three different provinces by the time she was two and lived in three different homes, we moved to our final home, her dad has been home every single night except for the odd vacation or weekend or work thing. Totally raised completely different. Not only her parents older than her sister experience like older. She's never moved. She's lived in the same house, very different upbringings. So when people say, "Oh no, they've been raised the same." Hell no. No such cocky pop. Like, "No, they are totally different kids. Totally different, totally different." It's like, "Holy smokes." Yeah, they definitely. the military term? I'm not a fan of it. Military brat. She's definitely the military brat. And Mikayla is just the military kid as far as I'm concerned, because she, yeah, very different, very different. And I was young, like, when I had - I was 25. I mean, that's not young, but in today's standards that's young.

Dawn Taylor

Oh it is. Yeah. But it is like it is young. But especially knowing you're walking into really single parenting for eight out of 12 months.

Jenny Ryce

Well, and I didn't know that this is the thing, you know that's true.

Dawn Taylor

Yeah. You didn't know that.

Jenny Ryce

And the crazy thing was at the time, the base we were at, we thought we'd be at that base because there was different positions he could hold within the base in his career. We thought we'd be at that base for years, of course, which was close to my family. I'm an identical twin right next, not next door, but an hour away from my twin, and the government decided to close the base. Scott was away. I had just moved us into our very first home that we bought. And I got this announcement that they're closing the base, and he phones me from a ditch somewhere in the prairies, and I'm like, crying. He's like, "What the hell's the matter?" And I'm like, "They're closing the base. We have to move." And he's like, "What?" And he's like, "I'll call you back." And that was one of the calls that I let them hang up from. I was like, yeah, the hell. Sure enough, the government had decided that they no longer needed the base where we lived. And so, unbeknownst to me, you know, we've just moved in and I have a baby on the way. All the things and I have to move away from my family and my support network with a six month old baby to your neck of the woods from the coast. And I'm like, I cried basically from the moment I left my dad because we'd been visiting. I left my dad's house, waved at my twin. I cried from that doorstep to the Alberta border. And I remember looking at that Alberta border and I said to myself, "Okay, sunshine. You got to toughen up. This is it. This is your life. Take it. Take it and run with it." And I had to, you know, being a 52 year old, I was told to shake it off, I don't know. I'm just a kid. Just shake it off, kid. So there's something super unhealthy about that.

Dawn Taylor

Parents in the 70s and 80s. Reason I have a job.

Jenny Ryce

Yeah, exactly. Shake it off. And. Yeah. Moved to Edmonton with a brand new baby. And what was interesting is we were really close knit group, the engineers, and then we moved to Edmonton because it was so vast. Everybody spread out. So, everything we knew changed. We didn't have our social network that we were used to. We didn't have our friends and family that we were used to. It was very, very isolating, actually. And then we moved. We bought a house after 2 or 3 months living in the PMQs, which is the private military quarters, which you do pay for, by the way, people have these weird senses that the Canadian military gets all the free stuff. No, you pay for it. I'm just saying it's not your wage. Yeah, out of your wage. We pay for it. And it was fascinating because we moved into this cute little house in October. Maybe we moved in September. Yeah, we moved in in September and he went overseas in October. Well, I grew up in a big city. And you don't tell people that you're a single person by yourself, especially if you're a woman. So, I really had never experienced snow fall. And it was 1996. And if you look it's one of the biggest snowfalls on record for Alberta, Edmonton at the time

Dawn Taylor

Which is just lovely, just lovely.

Jenny Ryce

So I'm a B.C., B.C. girl from the coast and I've got yeah, I've got my, my brand new baby wrapped to me and I'm out there shoveling. And so, funny story, the neighbors. So I spent all winter out there, either at midnight shoveling when she was in bed or clearing all this snow. And we'll never forget when Scott came home and he was chatting the neighbors up because he had met them when they left. But I never said anything, so I didn't even think all these men and women on the streets are like, "What the hell is wrong with this guy? Like, he is an absolute jerk. Like, she's out there with this baby by herself doing all the shoveling." And so they thought they had no idea because I wouldn't say a word. And they thought he was just some absolute deadbeat. So? So when he's mowing the lawn, because of course, he left in October. Comes back in spring. Of course it was melted. And he's out there mowing the lawn and he's talking about the tour he's been on and blah, blah, blah. And they were all mortified that they didn't take the initiative. But, I wasn't going to tell them I was by myself. And yeah, so everyone thought he was a total jerk face until they realized he'd been overseas.

Dawn Taylor

That is so funny, right?

Jenny Ryce

Like, yeah. So when in doubt, you guys, if you see somebody and something seems off, ask them if they need something.

Dawn Taylor

Always.

Jenny Ryce

Like, I think of the hours I had to go out there in the dark. To deal with things by myself. Yeah, which is fine. I mean, again, I realize how powerful it makes you when you dig in, right? When you dig in deep and allow yourself to feel the stuff. Like, I was sad. There's a lot of times when I was in Edmonton for the first time. I was lonely, I was sad, I was in culture shock. No offense. Edmonton is flat and I was contained by mountains my whole life and the ocean. I grew up with my parents building a sailboat where they were pregnant with my twin and I. So like, I was in shock of where I was culturally, which sounds really weird because it's just a province away, but it was so foreign to me the first night and I ended up in Warrenville. Actually, I didn't even know where I was. We were at friend's house sleeping in Warrenville, and I cried myself to sleep. I was like, all I could hear was the highway. I was like, "What the hell, where am I?" That's awful.

Dawn Taylor

When we moved from BC, we always joked that like, our webbed feet dried out and we stopped being, like claustrophobic. But we almost felt the opposite for the longest time. Yes. When we got to Alberta, we were like. "This is not safe.".

Jenny Ryce

There's no boundaries.

Dawn Taylor

Like. It felt so weird to, like, be forever and drive forever. And directions were weird because you couldn't spatially, like, distance yourself to the hills. It was very weird. Like, I know the exact feeling you're talking about because moving here was so strange in that way.

Jenny Ryce

Except for the sky is so big, which I love that that is really cool. I remember feeling, which is a weird way to describe. I would say to people I feel claustrophobic, but in the opposite way, because there's nothing to ground myself like, yeah, I feel like I'm in that horror movie where you're running and then you flip and you're in the same spot again, like it was wild.

Dawn Taylor

It's a different feel. It is a very different feel that if you haven't done it, you you can't understand. But don't feel wrong.

Jenny Ryce

We loved our time in Alberta. It was amazing. We eventually built really beautiful roots and met some incredible people. But that first little bit was like, "Oh my gosh, where am I?" And I'm alone, right? I'm alone.

Dawn Taylor

So did you have your own career, your own schooling, your own training? Were you doing anything or was it, "No. I'm a military wife and I have to." Because really, you didn't know if you were moving or if a base was closing or if the deployments were happening or any of those things. I know, just I mean, not married to a military person, but married to someone who's schedule's different every single day.

Jenny Ryce

Yeah.

Dawn Taylor

We spent years where he might be gone for a month. We'd get a phone call and he's home for two days. And it felt like it was almost like a responsibility. But also, let's be honest, something I wanted to do because he's my best friend and my husband and my lover and he's my everything, right? That I would drop everything.

Jenny Ryce

Everything.

Dawn Taylor

And so even now, even now that he's home way more often, if he's like, "Hey, can we hang out?" Like it doesn't matter. It does not matter. I'm like, the world falls away and all attention goes to him. Because that was our life for so many years. So, in this, you're building up this powerful way, in this resilience and these muscles and this, like, super crazy independence. So how did that work with, like, your own identity around having a career, having a job, having anything like that, but also that bounce back and forth between really single parenting and now co-parenting and that whole thing because, I mean, even in, so for Alberta, the oil field industry. Right? You talked to so many parents that struggle because it's like, "No, no, no. Like we have our boundaries and our rules and our systems and our processes and our schedules and everything is one way." And then dad comes home or mom comes home and it kind of throws all of it out the window, and it's all chaotic and exciting and fun and make it amazing. And that parent doesn't want to do the punishing, and that parent doesn't want to have to follow the strict rules, and that parent just wants to play. Right? So with both of those, how did you adjust to that?

Jenny Ryce

Well, why don't we talk about like the coming home part with the kids? Because that is such. And I think it's an important thing for any parent. It doesn't matter where you're going if you go away for a period of time. You need to, okay, so yeah, I'm going to share a little bit about the coming home because this is this can happen for any family. You don't have to be military. This is like a real thing. So many people work in travel nowadays. I had, we had a few house rules. My husband when he came home. His job was to be Dad. That's it. He was not allowed to discipline. He was not allowed to set rules. He was not allowed to have opinions. None of the things. He got to be a guest with our daughter and just enjoy her and be immersed in her. Because what's fascinating, when you go for a long period of time with a little person, they leave, you leave in there one way and you come home, they're another..

Dawn Taylor

Oh, 100%.

Jenny Ryce

So it's kind of like amnesia

Dawn Taylor

So fast.

Jenny Ryce

So, he would leave and she was crawling. He comes home and she's walking up and down stairs and he's freaking out. And I'm like, "Okay, so here's the deal. You have to trust that I have ensured that she's capable of what she's doing to this point.: So, his job was just to immerse himself in her and what was happening. So, that and that was like a two week period. So, if he was home for leave, that was two weeks. And he was just here to have fun and be with her and be with us. And yes, everything went, when your man comes home or your spouse or everything changes, you drop everything. You don't answer phone calls, you don't see friends, you do not work. You do like nothing happens. If you're fortunate enough, which I was to to be able to do that and coordinate that. But what we found is it allowed them a chance to reconnect without him having to be the bad guy all of a sudden, right? Like she already knows my rules. She already knew what was expected in the house, what wasn't. But he would be implementing rules that worked six months ago, not rules at work now. And it would allow him to learn through osmosis, watching and seeing what's the new way of being in the house. And we found for us, that worked really, really well because it allowed him to just observe and be, to enjoy. It's like you don't have to be the heavy. You don't have to be the guardian. You just got to enjoy, enjoy, be with her and spend time with her. And like, he's a TV guy, I can't really stand TV. No offense to TV people. It's just not my jam. I'd rather do other things. When he'd be there, they'd watch TV. You didn't see lots of TV in my house when it was me. I mean, there'd be some because, you know. You can't make it none, but there'd be some. But he loves watching TV, so that would be their things that they would do so it really helped their relationship though, because we were very fortunate. She never once shied away from him. Not once. She never once rejected him. She and I think it had something to do with the way we just allowed it to happen, right? It wasn't like, he tried to be the dad right away. He was always her dad, and that never changed. But he didn't have to do dad rules, if that makes sense. Right. And she. I was very blessed. She never really acted out about him leaving except one time and she was about four and a half. I think she might have been four. And I remember her being really upset and just kind of being nasty. And I remember saying to her and I was like, she's a smart girl. And I was like, "Honey, no matter how mean you are to me, your daddy is still not coming home." So, let's talk about how we can how we can make this good for us. Right? "I'm sad. You're sad, but being mean to me is not going to bring your dad back. Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter how many fits you throw. Doesn't matter what happens here. He is not coming back. We don't have a choice. But we do have a choice on how much fun we can have." And she never, but I've always been honest with my kids. I always tell them the truth and maybe don't tell them the adult truth. You know, do it in their terms. Now, they're adults, so of course they get adult truth. But back then it was always, you know, I can't bring him back, I can't. This is his job. People need him. We need him, but people need him as well. And we share him with those people. And we're lucky that we have him when we do have him. And they're lucky when they have him, when they have him. And she was able to grasp that really well. But again, every day we would draw a picture for dad when she was little. So I kept him very alive in her world, like it was, that is really, really important. And when I was sad, I didn't hide that from her. It's okay for her to see you sad. It's the truth. "I'm having a bad day. I miss your dad." Yeah, right. I remember she was having a bad day, and she was like being a little monkey. I call them punks. She was being a punk, and I was like, "Mom's going to lose her crap. I need a time out. This is going to go bad.:  You know that feeling? Any parent. I'm sure you can feel this with me. Where the blood goes so far up into your face, you're like, "I'm going to fucking go."

Dawn Taylor

"I might actually kill someone right now."

Jenny Ryce

This might not go well.  I'm like, I need to remove myself to my bedroom. I went to my bedroom, I shut the door and I'll never forget this. Oh my gosh, she was so sweet. I remember her coming to my door and literally we're talking seconds. I got a 32nd time out. Maybe if I was lucky. And she knocks on the door and she puts her little fingers under the door and she, like, wiggles them a little bit and it's like, "Mom, are you okay in there," And I was like, "Yeah, I just needed a timeout." Because of course, in that time frame of our lives, timeouts were how we managed. You know, that's how we manage things. So it's like if I'm giving her a timeout for behaving like that, I'm about to behave away. I don't want to behave because she's I just can't. We all get to a place in our lives where we become reactive by mistake. It's not what we want to do. So I was like, "Oh, I'm going to become like extra reactive here." And I don't know, I'm going to say something I'm regret or, you know, whatever. So I was like, I got to remove myself. But that 30 seconds and then little tap on the door and her little fingers was like, everything's fine. It's good. Right? It gave me enough to reset my brain and reset my nervous system and, yeah. So, my advice, create space and allow your kids to mold into the situation. This is their journey, too. You can't assume they're going to love their mom or dad or their their sister or whoever's been away. They're pissed. Possibly. They're possibly really angry and feel abandoned. Right? So that was part of my strategy. And I know it sounds weird to call it a strategy, but that was my goal was to keep him very alive in her life every single day. We did video recordings, so I would record little video messages. Not that we could send them. We had nothing to watch them on. But when he came home, he had this like little video archive of her chatting and, and so she would draw pictures and we would mail them with my letter that I wrote every day. And yeah, so there's ways to make it okay. And it's okay not to be okay, but don't fake it. Like living it. It sucks, but you got to live in it.

Dawn Taylor

So, let's go to the work piece of it, because you've had a very interesting career over all these years. At what point in all of this did it? I don't know if the right word is safe, but did it feel safe to even have a career or put that focus on yourself? Because I feel like that's also part of the identity, right? Is not like drowning into I'm a military wife and I'm a mom. But like, no, no, no, I want an identity outside of that.

Jenny Ryce

Well, and that's a really good point that you bring that up because that was one of the reasons why we and military, the PMQs were great, right? Because it was easy, convenient. You're in your community and your culture. It's fantastic. But we always, other than for investment purposes, obviously, because there's a whole financial piece attached to that. But we always tried to purchase a home outside of the base so that our girls would have an experience outside of military, if that makes sense, because we wanted them to have more exposure than just the military world, because it's pretty, like it's pretty.

Dawn Taylor

You know, all encompassing.

Jenny Ryce

Yeah. Like our whole life is military, which is fantastic. But we wanted them to have a little bit of a different picture. So fortunately, when I was dating Scott, I was actually going to hairdressing school. So unbeknownst to me, I developed a trade that was transferable, which was great. And I immediately when I went through hairdressing school, got my red seal trade, which meant I could work in every single province. This was before we were even serious about dating, but I was like, "Hm, this guy is my person, I need to be able to work everywhere." So, fortunately I had done that well in advance. But to answer your question, it was very challenging having a career because every time I moved, my skill set came with me, but my clientele base didn't. So, any of you listeners that are listening, if you're in a service business, you can understand how difficult that is to rebuild your business. And we would move on average every five years. So, it was very challenging. My resume got bigger, which was fantastic, and my skill set was bigger. But it didn't matter because when I move into a new town, I was selling myself all over again. Brand new rebuilding again, tapping into my resilience, learning so much about myself. And I think that's one of the reasons it led me down the pathway to education, because education in the beauty industry, I knew I needed more if that made sense. And it was I had to travel to do that work anyway. And by the time we had moved to New Brunswick, Scott was actually supposed to be teaching at the school, was going to be home for five years. And he's like, "Girl, it's your turn. Go see how far you can take this." So yeah, which was really cool. And. the only thing I wish I could have done was not been away as much as I was to do what I had to do. I didn't have to. That's not the right word -  to do what I wanted to do, because it was kind of twofold. It really gave our youngest because of course, I didn't have number two at this point. We're talking nine year gap, right? So number one, got to have a lot of alone time with her dad and really, you know, connect in a way that they wouldn't have had I been home as much. When I say was away a lot, I was probably on the road, you know, 3 or 4 days a week kind of thing. So probably three, three days a week easily. I was on the road and I was working for a haircare company.

Dawn Taylor

But that's really from being home every single day as mostly the solo parent. Yeah, all of a sudden being gone that much?

Jenny Ryce

Yeah, it was wild. Super wild.

Dawn Taylor

What a shift for both of you.

Jenny Ryce

Yeah, super wild and I think this is where I learned my skill set on burning myself out and still keep going, because I was never going to not make it okay.

Dawn Taylor

It's like a skill, but really damaging. Not a good one.

Jenny Ryce

No, no. I hope that oozed with sarcasm. Yeah, because I was not going to make it. Not okay in the house when I wasn't there. Like, I wanted to make sure that everybody felt loved, nurtured and cared for even though I was out doing my own thing. So that whole, like, you see those memes of the mom and she's a mom, she's, I mean, if anybody watched the Barbie, that monologue is probably it was written for me in that era. Doing all the things and, you know, and and on top of it, in my career, I was working for a really large haircare company. So I was on the show circuit. I was, you know, oh my gosh, I was on news coverage. I was doing like all kinds of things. So I was not only flying everywhere. I was doing all these like 12, 14 hour days and then come home and work behind the chair and do the mom thing, and the husband and wife thing and, friend thing. And so, yeah, I learned how to, there's some serious toxic, toxic skill sets developed for you.

Dawn Taylor

I always love that. one of my friends and clients said one time she's like "The greatest gift I was ever given was desperation." Like, you could do anything. Forced me to figure it out. And I always laugh at that because I've always said, like, "I wouldn't be who I am if I had not had the insane life I've had." It taught me how to dissociate in weird ways, and it taught me how to disconnect. You had to work too hard, and it taught me how to hustle too hard. And it taught me all these things that, they've been my greatest gifts and skill sets, and at the same time have been my double-edged sword of damage that I've had to balance out over these years. Right?

Jenny Ryce

Gosh. Right. Like I think, you know, I think back to when, you know, saying like, I can do anything. Every single house we moved in, I renovated the kitchen by myself. I am not a plumber. I am not electrician. I am not a carpenter. And I mean, I'm talking like every time, like the whole thing. I wonder what's going to be done next because I was like, I can do it, and I can't wait because I don't know if he won't be home long enough, you know, like, just figure it out. And back then we didn't have the Google Gods. Like, I legitimately had to like that literally, deliberately, even made up vocabulary, to make up vocabulary. You had to go and research it. 

Dawn Taylor

Go to the library and take out books and figure things out.

Jenny Ryce

I had to talk to the guy at the Home Depot and be like, "Okay, so I'm thinking of ripping the ceiling out. Do you have any suggestions?" Oh, every house I owned. You know, the sunlight lights, big ass fluorescent bulbs behind a big wooden box.

Dawn Taylor

Double wooden boxes hung from your ceiling and made your room.

Jenny Ryce

Yeah. That would be phase one of the demo. Oh, came the light. Yeah. So I know that's off topic but it's that kind of stuff right. Like you just you learn to be. You learn to go for it. So, I mean, if I bring it all back, the key that I learned, though, in that time is, again. I can do anything if I really, really want to. So, now I look at things and like, "Do I really want to?" Where I used to say yes to everything to make it okay for everybody, right? People pleasing. I'm a recovering people pleaser. Super proud of it. Um, that would be, you know, part of the stuff that I inherited and learned as a young person in a young marriage, moving and all those kind of things. Those are some of the, you know, the darker sides of it, right? Like, I couldn't let anyone know I wasn't okay.

Dawn Taylor

It's good to be strong for everyone. Yeah, like you mentioned, landmines. You can't be weak.

Jenny Ryce

Oh, I got to be, I got to have my shit together

Dawn Taylor

So let's fast forward. Your husband's now retired?

Jenny Ryce

Yes.

Dawn Taylor

From the military. He was in for 26 years.

Jenny Ryce

25.

Dawn Taylor

He's been home for a while and is doing a civilian job who's about to retire, like retire, retire in the next six months, which I am so excited for him because I know how excited he is.

Jenny Ryce

Me too.

Dawn Taylor

But fast forward all these years, you spent 25 years worrying about your husband on all of his deployments. And now, your two precious baby girls signed up to do the same thing to you.

Jenny Ryce

So I have to say, Dawn, you're gonna laugh because I say to you, it's worrying. I'm fine, it's fine, I'm fine, it's fine. 

Dawn Taylor

You say that all the time. And I laugh at you for it.

Jenny Ryce

Yeah, I'm like, it's fine. And of course, that is again dripping and oozing with sarcasm. My job as a mom is to support my children in their goals, dreams and ambitions despite the trauma it might give me. And they need to live their best life. And if that if that is their pathway and they feel they're going to do it serving. I'm very proud of that. I'm so proud of them. We were at a football game on the weekend and there was 26 of us there, and they asked all serving or pass serving members to stand up for the stadium to honor them. And I'm going to get emotional. These kids and my husband. And it was so cool because he was flanked by them. It was unplanned. And there he is. He's standing there and he's got his daughters on either side and my nephew with them. And I was like, damn, right? Like, damn, that is just like, the fact that they've chosen to put our flag on their back is a huge honor in a commitment to something beyond themselves. So if I have to worry a little bit and I have to keep the lights on and the candle burning, then it's the least I can do right there. Their job is to serve. My job is to fan their wings. And is it easy? Some days it's very challenging, but it's worth it because they don't tell you this part. Though it hurts no matter what they do, because they leave. It's like, so like, you know, they don't tell you. Like, I'm really blessed to have really amazing humans. I love my people. They're such good, kind, fun. We're dorks together. We have so much fun. Like, when when they have boyfriends or friends, they're shocked that how close we all are. They're like, "I never hang out with you." They're like, I've never seen anything like it. What's really cool is they they want that for their families and and, yeah, so we like each other. We actually genuinely like each other even though there's rules like, we're still, we're not the cool parents that are just, you know, fun times, good times. We have rules with boundaries and rules and so yeah, it's challenging. And then, of course, I have a nephew too, who's half-biologically mine because I'm an identical twin. So technically, we do share the same DNA. So, like, weirdly, I've always felt like he's, you know, a part of me too. But, yeah, so the worrying never stops. I just get really good at voicing my concerns and managing it. Yeah. And honestly, they got to live their life. Whatever that looks like. They have to. And I have to. You know, what makes me sad is when I hear people say, like, friends of ours, we were explaining what our youngest is doing as an image technician, and she's like, that is the coolest thing. I can't believe it. I really want to consider that. Like, this is amazing. And so I checked in with her the other day saying like, "Do you have any questions? Do you need any help? Like, are you seriously considering this?" And she's like, "My dad said, I'm not allowed." 1Well. And I'm like, "Don't put your fear on your children. Don't put your limitations on your children. And I don't care if they want to jump out of an airplane, okay? If they want to do stupid stuff like take a bunch of drugs and drive a car. Yeah, you need to, like, hammer the law down. I'm talking like, let them soar. Let them figure it out. They are going to find out what works for them and doesn't work for them." But the pathway to finding that out is who they become. Right? And I was crushed for her. "I was like, you just told this girl she has a glass ceiling. What the heck is wrong with you?" What do you mean? You told her no. What's broken in you that you got to put a boundary on her?

Dawn Taylor

On behalf of everyone I know that get told no all the time. Thank you.

Jenny Ryce

You're so welcome.

Dawn Taylor

I know we've laughed. It's been a it's been a very emotional journey in our office at times. You've worked for me, right? And we were friends prior.

Jenny Ryce

Yes of course, but yeah, like from a work perspective. From a work perspective.

Dawn Taylor

Right, and you know, walking through like the application and getting approved for your youngest and all the updates and the, you know, getting sent to base camp and graduating and first deployment, like, like all of the things, all of the things your daughter's wedding, finding out there, moving like I feel, like, I've been part of in this internal way, all the things as part of this.

Jenny Ryce

You have, girl.

Dawn Taylor

And, you know, we've shed the tears and we've cried and the worries and the sadness and the empty nest and the excitement and. And all of those emotions, and it has just been really, really beautiful to be part of it.

Jenny Ryce

Well, thank you for being a part of it. And that's so beautiful about having really deep, good friendships is you've never once said to me, "Well, didn't you know what you were doing?" Thank you. It's the question.

Dawn Taylor

I've had people say that to me over like, my husband's health. "Yeah, but you knew what you were getting into."

Jenny Ryce

Oh, but did I?

Dawn Taylor

I was 19. No idea what I was getting in at 19.

Jenny Ryce

Nobody's going to tell you what to do anyway, because you're brilliant and you're going to like, you know, you've know everything, don't you? Well, yeah. And we've often, we've often laughed about that. And yeah, you guys will have to listen to the podcast with you together, because recently, someone that we both know asked us separately if you could go back and tell yourself one thing about the other person, what would it be? In both of us said "Run, just run." and without the other person knowing?

Dawn Taylor

That is fabulous. And then we've talked about it after because I was like, I gave the worst response and it was one of my husband's employees, which was the funniest part. And I was like, but really? No, it's been amazing. Like it's we've fought through it and it's been phenomenal. But like, man, I would not wish that on any one of all the health stuff. But for either of us and the kids said that was what was interesting is like I said that on behalf of like myself being like, protect him from all the chaos he's going to have to deal with also protect myself, right? But yeah, like you've lived it. You've come out the other side of it, you're living it again and you still just support them. And I think that that's a really beautiful thing. Jenny, just wanted to say thank you. Thank you so much for allowing us to talk about this today and dig into this. And especially some of the strategies you used on how to keep that parent alive. I can imagine, even for parents that are gone for a week at a time or two weeks at a time, some of those strategies, some of those tools that you used would be so powerful. And allow those kids to love their parents in a different way when they come back.

Jenny Ryce

Well, it's my pleasure and I just want to leave with one thought. It doesn't matter if your person is gone for a day or six months, it still hurts. And people used to, say, well you know. Oh, but you've got so - and I'm like, it's still hurts. I miss him just as much. If he's gone for a day as if he's gone for six months. So don't devalue what you're going through because somebody else is going through something greater. And don't devalue what they're going through because you think yours is. Everybody's going through it their own way and just show support and love to each other. Right? It's compassion. Grace and compassion. Super important. Thank you, Dawn, for letting me share my story.

Dawn Taylor

You're welcome. I think I've always been curious, right. I've always been very curious what it was like and how long are deployments and what did you do to survive that and what does that look like?

Jenny Ryce

So, Ben and Jerry's ice cream and Survivor, when he went away. Seriously, it was the first time it ever came out. So I would have a girl friend over every week, and we would eat half a pint of Ben Jerry's ice cream, watch Survivor in order. Pizza like that was our, that was what we did.

Dawn Taylor

That is so amazing. I could tell that more. Girl, you and I need a Ben and Jerry's date soon.

Jenny Ryce

I know! We do!

Dawn Taylor

We do. All right. Thank you, thank you, thank you for everyone listening today and for hanging out with us. I hope that, if nothing else, you learn something from this. You took something from this. You understand someone in your world a bit different, or you could support them in a different way. Join us again in two weeks for another fabulous topic. And please tell your friends. The more people that feel understood, seen, heard, whatever it is, the more people that are just, I think opening up their eyes to different things, different life, different experiences, the better. Check out the show notes located at the Taylor Way.ca for more information and for all the contact information for today's guests. Because she's pretty dang fabulous and you should check out all her stuff and subscribe now on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. And if you love the show, please, please leave a rating and review. Talk to you guys soon!

Content Warning: 

In this episode, we discuss some topics that listeners may find difficult such as ableism. 
 

Why you would want to listen to this episode…

Bean Gill suffered an unfortunate predicament where she lost the use of her legs. However, she did not let that stop her from living life her way all while helping the people around her. Today, she is on this episode of Taylor Way Talks to help break stigmas regarding disabled people and dismantle the oppression towards them, whether it’s done purposely or subconsciously. At the end of the day, disabled people are people too, with their own feelings, wants, dreams and motivations and for Bean Gill, it’s high time the rest of the world recognizes that. 

Who is this for

It’s a sad truth that disabled people are often seen as lesser people in society. A lot of preconceived notions exist and they are not given a fair chance. This episode is for anyone interested in the ups and downs that disabled people experience, and who wishes to learn more about them as individuals, rather than just their condition.

About Dawn Taylor

Dawn Taylor is the professional ass-kicker, hope giver, life strategist, trauma specialist, and all-around badass. Dawn's journey into helping others heal began when she took her personal recovery from the trauma she experienced in her life into her own hands. While at times unconventional, Dawn’s strategic methods have helped hundreds heal from traumas such as issues related to infidelity,  overcoming addiction,  working through PTSD from sexual, emotional, and physical abuse, as well as helping cult survivors thrive. Dawn’s work has empowered entrepreneurs, stay-at-home moms, and CEOs alike to be superheroes in their own lives. Having completed thousands of hours of training from many professional programs, including the Robbins Madanes Training Institute, Dawn’s blunt honesty will challenge your thinking, broaden your awareness, and help you achieve the outstanding results you are worthy of.

Connect with Dawn here at The Taylor Way: Consultation Call | Website | Facebook | Instagram | LinkedIn

Get to know Dawn on a deeper level through her book! Order Here

P.S. I Made It, is a powerful story that grabs you through its lack of pretension and honesty. Every page reveals another layer of curious wonder at both Dawn’s life and the power of hope that moves within each of us. Dawn’s hope is that you use this book as a resource to deal with your struggles. Share it with someone who needs it. We all want to feel like someone understands what it’s like to suffer through something and – come out the other side. She describes her life as “horrifically beautiful and beautifully horrific. 

Guest Bio

Bean Gill is an Indo-Canadian woman who has lived through many adversities. After being paralyzed by a virus in 2012, she found her purpose and co-founded ReYu Paralysis Recovery Centre, helping hundreds of Canadians reconnect their brain to their body, retrain their nervous system and most importantly redefine what is possible for people with disabilities. Bean has won many awards which have led her to her most recent project, being the star of CBC's docuseries called PUSH, available on CBC Gem. 

Guest Social Links

Email - [email protected]

Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/branzoid/

Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/Beanzoid/

LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/bean-gill/

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Views Expressed, Legal and Medical Disclaimer

This podcast (including any/all site pages, blog posts, blog comments, forums, videos, audio recordings, etc.) is not intended to replace the services of a physician, nor does it constitute a doctor-patient relationship. Information is provided for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional medical advice. You should not use the information on this podcast for diagnosing or treating a medical or health condition. If you have or suspect you have an urgent medical problem, promptly contact your professional healthcare provider. Any application of the recommendations in this podcast/website is at the listener/reader's discretion. The views and opinions expressed are those of guests and do not necessarily reflect the opinion or policy of Dawn Taylor, The Taylor Way and or its Associates. The before mentioned are not liable for any direct or indirect claim or loss. 

Transcript

Dawn Taylor

Good morning. It is me, Dawn Taylor, your host. And today, we get to talk to one of my favorite humans. Her name is Bean Gill. If you do not know Bean, you need to. She's a movie star. No, I'm just kidding. But she does have a TV show. Bean is an Indo Canadian woman who has lived through more adversities than most after being paralyzed by a virus in 2012. Yes, paralyzed by a virus while she was on holidays. We will get into that a little bit. She decided not to just lay down and die. She came back fighting and she decided that it was time to, well, not even time. I'm sure she was doing this before, but she stepped up in a major way and she co-founded the ReYu Paralysis Recovery Center here in Edmonton, helping hundreds of Canadians reconnect their brain to their body, retrain their nervous system, but also to figure out what is actually possible for somebody with disabilities. She's won so many awards, spoken on crazy stages. She has a CBC docu-series called Push that you can watch on CBC Gem. I highly recommend you do. And she is here today. So we're going to have a super fun conversation on this. But we're here to break some ideas on a few things around disability. So what are we talking about today, Bean?

Bean Gill

I'm muted. Thanks for having me.

Dawn Taylor

No problem.

Bean Gill

Conversation. Um. Yeah. What are we going to talk about today? We're going to talk about all the things most people don't want to talk about. We're going to destigmatize sex, incontinence, bodily functions, having a disability, the attitudinal barriers that people have, the stigmas and biases and stereotypes that people have and hopefully break a lot of those down. 

Dawn Taylor

100%. So let's start at the beginning, even just with your story. So, you and I met a couple of years ago. Someone had connected us with a zoom call, hit it off, and then we're kind of, how have we described ourselves? We're both like really motivated, driven business women. And so when I came back to Edmonton, you were very high on my list of no, I actually want to, lik,e meet you in person and hang out. And we had a blast at lunch. It's so much good food and I had such a good time. But we've also had some really interesting conversations around like where this all started, what all happened. And I think if you're open, let's even start there of, let's start with Vegas.

Bean Gill

Sure. Yeah. So 2012 is where the bulk of my story begins. I guess, um, you know, 2012 was. And hope remains the worst year of my life. That year in April, I left my ex-husband after he beat me up for the first and last time. You know, and then a couple of months later, my dad left our family, and that was decades in the making, but still really hard to go through on that day. And then two weeks later, I was in Vegas on vacation. Woke up on Friday the 13th and we were supposed to go to the pool that day. I, you know, went over to the window, open the curtain, saw that it was raining. I walked back to the bed and those four steps that I took would be the last four steps that I would take on my own. As I got into the bed, I experienced the most excruciating pain I've ever felt in my low back. Um, the pain was like a 20 out of ten. Very, very bad. And then I couldn't move my right leg. So as I lay there trying to move both my legs, only my left leg was moving. And then a couple of minutes later, it went prickly from my hip to my toes and like a kind of motion. And I was left paralyzed from the waist down. Within ten minutes. 

Dawn Taylor

Okay. For you. For anyone listening. Hear that for a second? Like, trauma, like crazy. Probably finally on this trip, wanting to, like, rejuvenate, have some fun, find some laughter. And you literally go from standing and find to go to the pool to paralyzed in ten minutes. So, what happened? I mean, the medical reason for what happened. 

Bean Gill

I mean, my story is super long and complex. And so if you want to hear the full thing, you can go to rambling with ReYu. That's our podcast, episode one. Um, but I left with a misdiagnosis of conversion disorder because they couldn't find anything diagnostically or physically wrong with me while I was in Vegas. And so, that condition basically means that you're so stressed out that your brain tells your body to shut down. Now, given my year and also the 30 prior to it, it made sense. Back then, I couldn't talk to you like this. I wasn't able to communicate my feelings. I could not speak my truth. I buried everything inside plastic, a smile on my face and said, ”I'm fine. Everything's fine.” And it clearly was not. Um, but one of the blessings of this misdiagnosis is that it forced me to see a psychologist and still see her to this day. Just saw her last week. And it's been one of, like I said, one of the biggest blessings because she taught me how to communicate. She taught me how to love myself. She taught me how to work through all of the trauma I've gone through and am going through and will go through because that's what life is. 

Dawn Taylor

Yeah. Oh. Preaching to the choir. Why you reckon we bonded in that, in a weird way of like, yeah, life's been hard, but we both have fought really hard to be where we are. 

Bean Gill

Yes, we have. And then I didn't get my official diagnosis until three months after I was paralyzed. And my official diagnosis is transverse myelitis at t10 T11, which basically means inflammation of the spinal cord. And it can happen anywhere along your spinal cord. Mine happened at t10 T11, which is at my waist level, so my upper body is unaffected, thankfully. 

Dawn Taylor

So, it was a virus that just hit your spinal cord and caused this? 

Bean Gill

Yes. 

Dawn Taylor

So I know people from the outside listening might think, “Okay, well, it's a virus. Can't you just take pills for that or antibiotics and you're fine again?”

Bean Gill

No, no. It's not that simple. The fact of the matter is, like our bodies are super complex, super, super complex. And the virus that paralyzed me, I believe it was the Epstein-Barr virus. EBV is super common. If you've ever had mono, you have it, right. Millions of billions of people have it. And there's many different strains of it too. Just most of the time it lays dormant in your organs and it feeds off of excess heavy metals and excess hormones. Um, those lucky ones like me, when we'll get to stage four. So stage four is when this virus senses a spike in your cortisol level, which is your stress hormone. And when it senses that spike, that's when it says to itself, “Now's my chance to go attack the central nervous system.” and it will attack either your brain or your spinal cord. And for me, I'm just like, “Man, like you couldn't attack something less vital, like my fat cells or something?” 

Dawn Taylor

Can we manipulate this? Like we signed off on the design of this body, right? 

Bean GIll

I have beef to pick with this engineer who signed off on this.

Dawn Taylor

Oh, that's so funny.

Dawn Taylor

You walk in. Can I ask, how old were you when this happened?

Bean Gill

I was 30.

Dawn Taylor

So 30 years old and all of a sudden, I mean, no different than someone getting in a car accident and all of a sudden being paralyzed. What were the biggest other than the obvious? I mean, like, I have to learn how to work a wheelchair and I have to figure that out. What were, like, the big stigmas and the hidden parts of it that nobody ever talked to you about or explained to you that would come with this diagnosis and new health issue?

Bean Gill

Oh man, how much time do we have?

Dawn Taylor

Much as you have. 

Bean Gill

First and foremost would be like the attitudes, the attitudinal barriers that people with disabilities face. Of course, the physical barriers, right. Stairs, snow, whatever. But the attitudinal barriers is what really kind of took me by surprise. The judgment, the pity, the inspiration. You know?

Dawn Taylor

Can you explain that? Because you and I've talked about inspiration porn. It makes both of us very angry. 

Bean Gill

It is. It's basically, you know, people coming up to you in the grocery store and saying, “Oh, my gosh, it's so good to see you out and about. It's great to see you out here.” And it's just like, so, you know, in the beginning, those kind of comments would destroy me. I would leave. I would want to go home. I would cry. I would feel less than. Now, I flip it back on them and, oh, my God, they let you out. They let you out. Did somebody congratulate you and give you an award for brushing your teeth this morning? Let me do that person today.

Dawn Taylor

That's awesome. And it's like, how do you feel? Does that make you feel good? 

Bean Gill

No, no, it doesn't. But people say these things not to intentionally hurt somebody else, but to make themselves feel better because a lot of people don't know how to interact with people with disabilities. They don't know how to talk to them. They don't know what to do. And so they say what they are programmed to say, which comes from media and the media uses the medical model of disability, which is, “Oh, these poor people,  they're invalids and they can't do anything. Let's call them vegetables. Right? Like, I just can't. It drives me absolutely bonkers. Um, like, do we need help? Sure. Sometimes. And do some people need help all the time? Yeah, they do. But that doesn't make them any less worthy of dignity and respect. So that's the biggest thing. And then add on being Indian, right? Layer of cultural stigmas and discrimination in my culture is If you have a disability, you are thought to bring shame upon your family. And, like my culture is one of the most toxic cultures because it's like everybody has to make sure our family looks perfect. If our family doesn't look perfect and the eyes of the community, we have failed. And so I'm here to point out all the imperfections in everybody's family. 

Dawn Taylor

I have a lot of people in my world, from clients to friends that are in your culture, and it is 100% that. 

Bean Gill

Yeah. And it's just like nobody's perfect. So where are these expectations coming from? Yeah, Colonialism from the British. That's where they come from. But I digress. 

Dawn Taylor

It's okay. So for someone who is sitting back and going like, “Oh, I think this is me, I've been the one who's treated someone this way.” Let's dive into misconceptions. So if you have, if you looked at the title of this episode, you realize we're diving in, we're getting right to the root of this. Let's talk misconceptions. 

Bean Gill

The biggest one for both males and females with spinal cord injuries is can you have sex? And if you're on a dating app or you're single and you're trying to meet somebody, that's one of the first questions you get. And it's just like, I get it. People want to know. People are curious, right? So that's why I'm open about these things because I want to dispel a lot of this stuff. Um, but yeah, most people can and you know, there's different ways of doing things. If you don't have any sensation, there's different parts of your body that do become erogenous. And that's different for each person because our bodies are so complex and actually very, very smart, right? Um, but yeah, that's one of the biggest questions that most people have, and we addressed that in season one of Push. My friend Brittany, her and her husband, he's able bodied, she's not. They do a video of the sex positions that they use and they're fully clothed, but they talk about and they show how they have sex. And you know, a lot of people want to know. So I'm glad she did it. 

Dawn Taylor

That's awesome.

Bean Gill

Yeah. But there's just like there, that's one of the biggest things. And then there's also a lot of taboo around that, too. Right? And you know, I have had that conversation before as well of, we need to erase the taboo ness around pleasure and intimacy because we all want it. We deserve it. We need to have it. And it's more than just sex. You can find pleasure and intimacy in the foods you eat and the clothes you wear in the activities you do. So, just kind of breaking those down and giving people permission to explore these different things and different avenues and also breaking down their own. Like biases as to what sex is and what pleasure and intimacy means to them. 

Dawn Taylor

So, what are some other taboo topics around paralysis and being in a wheelchair that people aren't, that we need people to be aware of?

Bean Gill

Sure. I mean, bodily functions. Right? So, a lot of people think, “Oh, you have a spinal cord injury or you can't walk. Oh, that's too bad.” But it's so much more than that. Like, our spinal cord controls our whole body. And a big part of that is temperature regulation, also bowel and bladder function. And I lost bowel and bladder immediately after I was paralyzed. And, as most people do. Um, and then so, you know, you're now using a catheter to pee, right? And to go to the bathroom, like, to poop. It's called digital stimulation and that's basically sticking your finger up your butt and stimulating the rectum for the poop to come down and out. And, you know, we talk about it openly now because. we're just so sick and tired of being made to feel ashamed of how we have to deal with our bodily functions. Every single living being on this planet, even amoebas, shit. So, why are we made to feel shameful and dirty and insecure about how we do it? So, that's why we're here, to dispel all these myths and to talk about these things so that they become normal, right? Like incontinence, like, so I can feel when I have to pee and when I have to poop, but I can't hold it. My sphincters don't work. And so when I need to pee, like, I need to pee now and you know. In the very beginning, again, if I peed myself, that would ruin my day. I would go home. I would cry, I would be mad. I would feel sorry for myself. Now, I'm just prepared for it, right? Like I'll wear pull ups. I will have extra pants on me all the time, extra underwear, all the stuff simply because this is a part of my life. And, if I could do something to fix it, trust me, I would. 

Dawn Taylor

Isn't it interesting? It's being in a wheelchair. There's the obvious disability piece, right? That someone can look at you and go, “Oh, yeah, okay, that makes sense.” Listening, right? Like, even I didn't know a lot of this. And I'm like, Thank you, thank you for sharing because I'm a curious human. And also it's like, okay, that makes more sense to things, right? But I've often said, like, I was at a lunch meeting the other day and if I get a tickle on my throat, my sphincter on the other end doesn't work. So I don't have my upper sphincter on my, over my stomach, right? So if I get a tickle on my throat because of being on life support, because of the brain aneurysm, I can't just clear my throat or cough or drink and have the tickle go away. I projectile vomit like a party trick. It's the dumbest thing ever. And I've literally been walking through a grocery store with someone who just reached over calmly and grabbed like a box of crackers and just opened it and peeked into it and closed it and set it in my cart. Oh, like more times than you can imagine. I've had to do things like this or a bag of chips or a coffee cup or whatever. And I was at a lunch meeting and I just, like, I have to push on my throat. Like I have to literally, like, shove my fingers in between that little V piece and find where the tickle is and actually, like push my throat to scratch it. It's literally like, I have to scratch that, right? Yeah. And they're looking at me like, “What the hell are you doing?” And I'm like, My eyes are watering and I'm like, “I'm trying to not throw up on your face. Like, I just need you to know this.” Like, because, if this comes out, it's like a 1980s horror movie and it goes, Oh, my husband literally measured it like eight feet one time. Like, I like no, it's like projectile forceful vomiting. Oh, yeah. It's hilariously bad. But it was interesting because after I was done, he was like. “Just so you know, that didn't look super weird. Like if you've ever doubted yourself in public when you've had to do that,” he goes, “It just felt like you were checking your neck or your throat.” Like, it wasn't like this big obvious like, what the hell's going on situation. I just wanted you to know that. And I was like, “You know what? Thank you. Thank you for telling me that.” But is this weird? Yeah. Covid was fun, by the way, when every, like, cough meant you were going to murder someone. But it is a weird disability, and it's a complication that I now have had to deal with for the last 25 years that most people would never have to deal with and have no idea. And it's it always makes me cringe but laugh when a new client comes to see me and I'm like, “Just a heads up, this happens and I might have to get up and go puke and come back.” I'm okay. And I'm like, Oh my word. “Like, it's such a pain in the ass.” But it's just part of my reality. And I wish I don't know if I've ever really talked about that as being like one of my biggest frustrations because it happens everyday. Right. It's just this weird thing that I have to deal with, right? Yeah,  It's these, like, hidden little complications that and that so many of us have that nobody talks about. 

Bean Gill

And it's because of that. Like, I need to appear perfect, right? Like, I used to be a perfectionist and a people pleaser. And so, like, I've really had to dismantle all of that in myself to be like, “No, I am who I am and my body is the way it is. And I will always strive to be as healthy as I can.” That will always be my goal and my trajectory in life. But what I'm dealing with is my reality. And it's, I'm not alone in that. And so by sharing it, like, first of all, we created a huge community, right? Because now people don't feel alone, nor do they feel shameful or embarrassed of these things that all of us deal with. Yeah, it's important to talk about it and to destigmatize these things. 

Dawn Taylor

It is so important. And that's why that's why I was like, “Hey, do you want to come on my podcast and talk about this?” 

Bean Gill

Yes, yes, I do want to talk about this. 

Dawn Taylor

So are there any other big, I don't know,. You know, those curiosity things that people like, the stigmas that people put on you? 

Bean Gill

Yes. Okay. So another one was specifically with spinal cord injury is, people are like, “Oh, you're paralyzed. Oh, okay. So you can't feel anything. You can't move anything. Right?” That's what most people assume. But actually, the majority of people can feel and they can move. There is definitely a percentage of the population that cannot and I will not distract from them. They definitely can't feel, can't move anything, but the majority of us can. And so we need to, like, dispel that to that. Like, “Oh, you're paralyzed, you can't do anything.” That's not, that's not true. And then also, within the spinal cord injury world, your diagnosis is either complete or incomplete and have such a big beef with these words because so many people put so much of their identity on words. And what it means is what it's supposed to mean is a complete injury. People think your spinal cord has been severed completely in complete meaning and completely. But what it actually is, is the doctor will stick their finger up your butt. If you clench, you're incomplete. If you don't clench, you're diagnosed complete. Basically your sphincter function. But like I said, they wrap their–

Dawn Taylor

Okay. Can we pause on that for a sec? 

Bean Gill

Yes. 

Dawn Taylor

They seriously determine your level of paralysis based on your asshole.

Bean Gill

Not the level. The level is determined basically, like where your injury is. Yes, complete versus incomplete is they stick their finger up your butt and you clench or you don't clench. It's archaic. 

Dawn Taylor

That is. Sorry. Like I'm blown away at that. 

Bean Gill

Yep.

Dawn Taylor

Is that like, on any level? How is that okay?

Bean Gill

Because it was okay 50 years ago. It was okay 80 years ago. And these are the things that don't change. In 1920, there were researchers who said the central nervous system can regenerate. Those researchers were laughed at by the general research community. They were right. They were right. And these other people are the reason that this whole stigma is here is because they were closed minded. They couldn't see what these other people were seeing and their ego stopped them from opening their minds to what is actually possible. Our brain is very plastic. If you can learn to brush with your left hand, guess what that is? Neuroplasticity, you're learning so you can reconnect your brain to your body. You can do all these things because our brain is incredibly complex and incredibly intelligent. 

Dawn Taylor

It is. So do you find and maybe this is super controversial and you can answer it or not, but I find and I had this conversation this morning with a client that, it's very hard to fight for yourself. It is very hard to step up and actually say, “No, I'm not okay, settling with where I am.” Do you find that in your community as well, that a lot of people will just curl up and die and be like, “Nope, this is my diagnosis and I'm done.”

Bean Gill

Yeah. Straight answer. Yes. And it's because. Okay, so people with disabilities are the biggest minority in the world. There's over a billion of us, right? And disabilities don't discriminate. You can be from any walk of life. You can be any size, any color, have as much money or have zero money, and you can end up with a disability. So there's such a vast array of people. And what I have seen through my last 11 years of living with a disability is that most people are sheep, right? Most people are followers, they are not leaders. And these followers will listen to these experts who are typically able bodied people about what they can or cannot do with their disabled bodies and the limiting beliefs from the healthcare system, from the media, from cultural stuff will get placed on these people and then they will start to believe it. They will start to live those limiting beliefs and they will stay within those confines of those limiting beliefs. I was there. I trusted my health care professionals. I actually lost all of my own knowledge being an x-ray tech working out since I was 12 years old. I forgot all of that and put all my trust in my health care professionals. Did they help me? Yeah. Did they help me? To the best of their ability? No. And it wasn't until I started taking true ownership of my recovery journey that I started that. That's when I started seeing actual growth and actual recovery. Because it is up to you. And now being in the role that I'm in now, like I get asked many times, “Do you think I'm going to walk again?” And my answer is always, “Do you think you'll walk again? Because if you think you will, you will. If you think you won't, you won't. It doesn't matter what I think.” But yes, I believe everybody can walk again because that's literally my business, right? You know? .

Dawn Taylor

No, and thank you for saying that, because it's, I talk all the time about one of my one of my biggest whys behind why I do what I do is trying to eradicate this bullshit belief that there's a socially acceptable level of broken. And that's just as good as we're going to get. Yeah, no. You're just always going to struggle with anxiety and you're always going to struggle with depression and you can't actually heal and you can't actually. And I'm like, “No. Fuck that.” Excuse my language, but fuck that. Like because so many people have bought into it and they've just settled in. 

Bean Gill

And to these people, I say disrupt the system, ask your doctors, question them, do not take what they say as to be the definitive answers because they don't know. And now, I mean, I've been told that I'm a difficult patient and said, “Yeah, I'm going to make you work for all that money you're making.”

Dawn Taylor

That's awesome. 

Bean Gill

I'm not going to believe everything you say. I'm going to ask to see the research papers. I'm going to ask to see all these things. And so now I had a terrible situation with a women's clinic here in Edmonton. And when I went there, the doctor, without even making eye contact with me, she has a clipboard and she comes into the room. She's like, “Hi.” She's like, “Okay, so you have transverse myelitis, okay? So you can't move and you can't feel, okay.” And then I was like. “Um, excuse me. Hi. I'm actually a human being sitting here.” and these are the things I actually said to her, and I said, “I can feel and I can move. I can't feel hot, cold or pain below my level of injury, but I can feel and I can move.”  And then she goes on to say, “Okay, so go ahead and tell me all of the things you can't do.” And I said, “All right. But before I do that, I'm going to ask you.” And I opened up my phone and I open up my notes page and I said, “You tell me all the things that you can't do. Have you climbed Mount Everest? Are you an Olympic swimmer? Are you a marathon runner? Are you a mountain climber? Are you an archaeologist? So go ahead. Tell me all the things you can't.”. And she looked at me and I held eye contact with her for like a minute and said, “How does that make you feel? Do you feel good about yourself?” I'm like, imagine how that makes all of these other people with disabilities feel when you don't even make eye contact with them and you assume these things and then you ask them to talk about all of their limitations. And I will say that to every single doctor, you know, I will be joined by anybody. I'm not scared of anybody. Don't care how many letters you have behind your name. If you're a human being, you're on the same level as me, man. And you sit down when you talk to me. That's my attitude. Because like, you have to write like, what do these people know what you've read in textbooks, what the what big pharma has taught you? 

Dawn Taylor

Oh, right there. 

Bean Gill

I get very passionate about this because it's so frustrating. I've said to him, I've said to one of my doctors before, “Okay, remind me again how long you've had your spinal cord injury for.” Oh, you know I don't have one. I was like, “Oh, okay. And so tomorrow you have a spinal cord injury. Are you going to accept the advice that you're giving me today?” And then they usually break eye contact and said “Absolutely not. You're not going to. You're going to use all of your money. You're going to use all of your resources to find the best therapies around the world to help you. But why are you going to stop your patients from doing that to.” Go home and reflect on that. It's tiring having to be this person to question everything, to, you know, educate constantly. But if we don't do it, these stigmas continue, these stereotypes continue and we will not disrupt the system.

Dawn Taylor

Oh, and it's, you know, it's funny, as I was just sitting here, as you were talking and thinking like what stigmas and stereotypes did I think? 1.4s Growing up of someone in a wheelchair. From watching TV, from watching movies, from just life and people talking. I always for some reason, and I don't know why. Because like, I grew up with Terry Fox, right, Like, and those sorts of things. But it's like. I always had a stigma that in order to be in a wheelchair and have a physical disability, you also had to have a mental disability.

Bean Gill

That's a big one

Dawn Taylor

RIght? That those two were intertwined. And sometimes, sometimes they are.

Bean Gill

Sometimes they are.

Dawn Taylor

Right? But it's like, it's like when someone who doesn't speak English and someone talks to them and they just think if they talk louder, they'll understand them.

Bean Gill

Yeah.

Dawn Taylor

And I think that as society we need to human better, like so much better And we do. We need to step up and actually get curious and go, “Hey, you know what? I don't understand your culture. I don't understand what it's like to be in a wheelchair. I don't understand what it's like to fill in the blank. Let me learn.” Yeah, let me learn so that I can human better with you. 

Bean Gill

Yeah. It's creating those safe spaces for these conversations to be had. Right. And like, as people with disabilities, as annoying as it is, we are the ones that have to go out into the able bodied world and show people where normal people do. We're regular people. Whether we have an intellectual disability or not, we are still regular people who deserve respect and dignity. So disability etiquette is something that I talk about a lot, right? Because like, we need to perpetuate that and it's something just as simple as making eye contact with somebody. 

Dawn Taylor

Okay. So give us some disability etiquette, okay? Give us some like, because I know like even when we went out for lunch, right, it was like it's a different thought of like, “Oh, we need to pick a restaurant that's really easy, that doesn't have stairs, that has space between tables.” Right? All those things. But yeah. What are some like, top disability etiquette things that people can walk away with?

Bean Gill

Some easy, easy, easy ones. First and foremost, making eye contact, right? So if you see you're walking down a mall or the airport or you're in the movies or you're somewhere and you see somebody with a disability, most people's innate reaction is to look away. Most people. But then we as people with disabilities feel ignored. We feel like we're not here, we're transparent, like you cannot see me. Do I not take up space? And I'm not worthy of taking up this space. So make eye contact. Just look at them. Crack a smile, right? Even if you're wearing a mask, you can still tell when somebody's smiling at you. Oh, that's all it takes is eye contact and maybe a head nod or something. Right. Now, that person like, to you in your day, a blip in the radar. Not even a blip. Right to that person. They now feel seen. And the three most basic things that humans need are to feel seen, to be heard and to be loved. That's it. And so simple. Simple. Make eye contact. Okay. Second, talk to them. If you want to talk to them, talk to them. But there's certain ways to talk to people, right? So one, of course, do not ever, never ask anybody, “Hey, what's wrong with you?” Don't ask them that.

Dawn Taylor

What? That's not appropriate.

Bean Gill

But a lot of people will. Because they don't know the language to use. And this is also like a very gray area of whether you should ask somebody about their disability story. Because, a lot of people it is very traumatic and a lot of people don't want to talk about the most traumatic incident in their life over and over, over and over again to complete strangers. However, totally, a lot of us are okay with it, too, right? So many of us don't mind sharing our stories. We don't mind telling people what happened. We're at the point now where we can make fun of it. We can laugh it off, however, so just be aware that you might run into some people who are super grumpy and don't want to talk to you and respect that as well. 

Dawn Taylor

So what is the right language to use?

Bean Gill

Okay. So, generally you can say, you know, you see somebody using a mobility device, you could be like, “Hey, like, I see you using a mobility device. Would you mind telling me a little bit more about it?” Or if you see a parent with a child with a disability can be like, “Hey, like, I see your kid has a disability? I would love to learn more about my community and I love learning about people. Would you mind sharing your story with me?”

Dawn Taylor

What a beautiful way to word it. 

Bean Gill

Right? Like when you come from that place of genuine curiosity. Like I actually want to know more about you. People will tell you too much, right?

Dawn Taylor

I can see that.

Bean Gill

But I've been asked. Oh, like. “So what happened to you?” And, you know, like, that's gossip. You're asking me so you can gossip about me? And that's the Indian community. Majority of it. Right. “Can you tell what happened? See what happened to these people so I can go talk about it with my family and with this person and that person?” Yeah. And in those instances, I'll still say like, “Yeah, a virus attacked my spinal cord.” And then they're kind of, like, because most people don't expect me to say that, they're like, “Oh, car accident.” or whatever, right. 

Dawn Taylor

100%. Yeah,

Bean GIll

But yeah, it's honestly, it's your body language. It's your tone of voice. It's your Intention behind asking the question. It will come through when you ask it. So ask yourself, “What is my intention here? Is it pure? Is it to gossip? Why do I want to know?”

Dawn Taylor

Which is awesome. You know what? I. I don't know at all what it's like to live in your shoes or to live your life. But after the brain aneurysm, I was in a wheelchair for a few months. And had half a shaved head and had doubled my body size in a hospital on steroids and. Man. I remember at one point I went to the dollar store because it was so sick of people looking at my head. It was like, stop staring at the scar. Stop staring at the big shaved section, stop staring at it. And it was going into summer and I had my husband, who was my boyfriend at the time, go to the dollar store and buy the biggest, ugliest fake tattoos he could find. And I covered my legs in them because it was like then people are so busy looking at my legs, it won't they won't notice what's going on with my head. I was just like, got to love being 18. Dealing with trauma. Right?

Bean Gill

The technique.

Dawn Taylor

The technique I used. Right? Like, it actually makes me laugh. Even that I told you that I was like, I love that. That's what I thought was a good fix instead of, like, calling people on their shit, right?

Bean Gill

Yeah,

Dawn Taylor

There was such a stigma and there were so many looks. And like, I remember sitting in the vice principal's office crying one day because I was like, I don't even know how to get to my classroom. Because it's all stairs. Yeah. Like I literally cannot go up the stairs. And he's like, “Oh, yeah, okay. There is an elevator somewhere.” And I was like, “Seriously?” Like, This shouldn't be so hard.

Bean Gill

Agreed, it shouldn't be, but our society is still so ableist and mean. You know, people are talking about diversity, equity, inclusion all over the place since 2020. But. Talk is cheap.

Dawn Taylor

Oh, there's no action.

Bean Gill

It's cheap. There's zero action happening as to, like, people actually being inclusive I mean, there are some people that are taking action. I'm not going to just distract from them. They are doing the work. But there's a lot of people that aren't and big corporations are a big part of that, that they are not actually doing what they can to make things more accessible or inclusive. And it's just simple things that they need to do to make things inclusive to be, for example, I want a very prestigious award last year and they told me everybody else will be going up on stage to get their award and you're going to come in front of the stage and said, “No, I'm not.  I'm going on the stage.” And they said, Oh, but like the ramp didn't work for this other lady, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, “Get a better ramp. Good for her. I'm going on stage, figure it out.” And I went on stage and like, you are not segregating me and keeping me lower and not even just like the metaphorical action of it, but like I'm physically lower. No, I will not take this. And for me, one of the hardest things to get over after being paralyzed and I'm still not over it, is having everybody look down at me and having me to have to look up at everybody when they talk to me. I can't stand it. Absolutely cannot stand it. I used to be the girl who would walk in with six inch heels, be one of the tallest people in the room, Command attention. And now people don't even see me. Yeah, it's really hard.

Dawn Taylor

So what is the safe, comfortable way for that? Right? Because it feels, I think, on my end, like it would feel condescending or minimizing. To, like, squat down in front of you. Yeah. And do that, right? Like, maybe it is. Maybe it isn't. It feels. like, childish. And you're not a child, right? I don't want to be like that. But if that is the right thing to do.

Bean Gill

Yeah. I think it's situational. Okay, so, like, what I usually say is like, okay, say we're having like, you're coming to ask me a question. It's 30 seconds.. It's fine. Just bend over and talk to me.. Or like, it's fine. I can look up and talk to you. Or if you are a very tall person, like if you are six feet and above and we're talking for more than a minute, like ask be like, “Hey, do you mind if we move over here so I can sit down to talk to you?” Like if there's no chairs around, right? Or I will see people are getting uncomfortable. “Like, do you want to go sit down?” I'll just ask them, like, “Do you want to sit down?” Because it does get awkward and people don't know what to do or people will. They'll take a knee or they'll kneel or they'll squat, but then they can't get back up, right. Then they’ve got their hands on my legs. They're using me. But it's happened a number of times. 

Dawn Taylor

Okay, that's really bad but hilarious. 

Bean GIll

And so we just kind of use your judgment, right? Like if you're having a longer conversation.  Just go ask to sit down somewhere so that you can speak or like at networking events where it's loud and hard to hear. Like it's really hard for me to project my voice up to somebody who's six foot two. So it's really situational. And depending on, like, how long the conversation is, I've had people kneel down to talk to me too, and that's fine too. I mean, it's hard to offend me unless you say something racist. It's hard to offend me. So I will just kind of like, correct people and like, you know, most of my friends will do the same thing, too. Um, so, yeah, I don't know, like, it's kind of there's no right or wrong way to approach this and mean like, you're not super tall. So when we were standing and I was sitting, it wasn't that awkward of a conversation because you were like, right there. 

Dawn Taylor

No, I'm real short. Tall for a hobbit. Oh, is there? Is there anything like I know one of my one of my personal struggles is I would love to host you and cook for you and love on you in my home, but I don't know how to get you in my home.

Bean Gill

I mean, wherever there is a problem, there is a solution, right? So myself, I am now able to walk up a few stairs. So if you can carry my wheelchair up for me, I can walk up the stairs or I could scooch over onto my butt and like, bum up the stairs and somebody else take my chair up and then I can hop back into my chair. Or if we have strong people around, they can just lift me up in my chair up the stairs. Right?

Dawn Taylor

Then I'm inviting you over because I love to feed people and cook. 

Bean Gill

Yeah. Love to eat. So I'm down 

Dawn Taylor

And have a quite wheelchair friendly house. There's lots of open space!

Bean Gill

I'm lucky and privileged to use a manual wheelchair. My wheelchair weighs like 30 to 40. Right. But somebody in a power chair doesn't have those luxuries. A power chair weighs a minimum of, like, 200. Right. So lifting one of those bad boys?

Dawn Taylor

Not happening. 

Bean GIll

Not happening. Right? And so, you know, there's, like, different levels to this. Right? People have different levels of ability. Different levels of independence. Yeah. Um, if our city didn't love stairs so much, the authentic upstairs, we would be able to have more visible homes or have more zero entrance homes. Right. Um, and this is just a big problem that we have here and that we will continue to have until we have true inclusion with universal design. 

Dawn Taylor

And it's true. We were talking before we got before we started the podcast, we were talking about, you know, even like for you to go to hotels or for you to go out and want to like hang out at a cabin somewhere or do any of those things, It's so hard to find places that are, that are available for you. that actually work.

Bean GIll

Yes, it is really hard. I mean there are more and more now thankfully, right, but yeah, they get booked up really fast and mean even take hotels for example. Okay. Hotels have to have wheelchair accessible rooms. They must by law, but they do not have to reserve those rooms for people who need them. I have called many hotels and even going to Mexico where you pay six months in advance to book a room, they will tell you that when you get to the resort that we cannot make sure we cannot hold the accessible room for you. Somebody else might be in it. And I'm like, “What? I'm literally reserving this room six months in advance. I've given you my money telling you I'm coming here.” And they still say you can't. And I've had like, you know, I've gone to other hotels, local hotels and stuff too, and been like, Yeah, like and luckily, like, I don't need a wheelchair accessible room. I can make a regular room work for me.

Dawn Taylor

But not everyone can. And that's not the point. 

Bean GIll

No. And so, you know, I've had people, hotels say, “Oh yeah, we have two accessible rooms, but currently they're being used right now.” And I'll ask, are they being used by somebody who needs their wheelchair accessible room “Oh, no. Can you ask them to move to a different room?” “No, we're not allowed to disrupt.” Oh, you can disrupt my life. That's not a problem at all. But these are. This is covert ableism. 

Dawn Taylor

So what are some awarenesses on that? Because I'm even thinking about that in regards to like it drives me crazy when people park in the wheelchair accessible spots at a grocery store. 

Bean Gill

It's funny you say that because tomorrow morning we're hosting a protest. We're holding a peaceful protest against our accessible parking stalls being taken all the time because we are so sick of it. Every single day we find somebody parked in our stalls and the excuses we get are just ridiculous, right? Like, “Oh, I'm just doing in for a minute and just picking somebody up, dropping somebody off.” Uber Eats and DoorDash are the worst. They're the absolute worst. Um, and so, yeah, we're, we're going to, we're going to have a protest tomorrow morning and just kind of disrupt the system a little bit and say, “Well, we're going to take your spots. How do you feel about that?” Yeah. And so now what my friends and I have started doing is just like, “Okay, you're going to park here for just a minute. I'm going to park right behind you so you can't move. And guess who's going to get the ticket and the tow? Fine. It's not me. That's you.”

Dawn Taylor

That's awesome. 

Bean GIll

And so that's what we've started doing is “Okay. Go ahead. You're going to be here for a minute. I'm going inside for a few hours. See you later.” Right. But also, people are violent and people get very angry. And so you have to watch out for your safety.  It's the entitlement that people have. It's the privilege that people take for granted and don't check in themselves. And that oh well, this is my spot. Like go somewhere else. And it's just it's so frustrating. The bathroom stalls is another one, right? So going back to disability etiquette, simple things I say is don't park in our parking stalls. Don't use our bathroom stalls. And I'll show you a quick story with you as to why not to use our bathroom stalls. Okay. Like I said before, my sphincters don't work. So if I got a pee, I got to pee. Now, one day we were driving my mom and I was like, “Oh, I really got to go to the bathroom.” We saw a Walmart. So we pulled off, went into the Walmart and, you know, my mom pushed me into the bathroom and I'm wheeling by 15 regular stalls to the one accessible stall. At the end. I gotta a pee so bad I'm just wheeling, wheeling, wheeling. I ram into the door because that's how open most doors, right? I just ram into them. It's locked. Fuck. I look through the crack in under the bottom and I see two able bodied feet sitting at the toilet like. God. And so I'm sitting there, I'm like like kind of calming my breathing, relaxing my body, trying not to think about it. And, you know, 20 seconds, 30 seconds,. I'm like, okay. Then I knock on the door. “Are you almost done in there?” “No, I'm not. You're gonna have to wait till I'm done.” “Okay. Well, this is the only stall I can fit in, so you're going to have to hurry up here.” And this lady didn't. So I peed my pants sitting right outside the accessible stall, unable to fit in any of the other stalls. She comes out and not even a sorry or anything. And I gave her a mouthful. And then she goes to the sinks where my mom is, and my mom gave her a mouthful and I had to go into the stall where she took a giant shit. I have to sit in her warm shit smell to clean myself off. Is this dignified?

Dawn Taylor

Not at all. 

Bean Gill

Accessible bathroom stalls are there for people who need them. Not for people because they want the extra space to take a shit. And the gray area is with kids. Right. That's a gray area because most, most accessible bathroom stalls, that's where the change table is to. Which is a big no no. If you look at the ADA and actual accessibility legislation, you cannot put that in there. But most people do because, hey, space, we only have big stuff. So why not just stick everything in there? Right? And like, I don't get mad at moms with kids because this is the gray area. Where else are you supposed to go? Right. But when I was just in Seattle's airport, it was magnificent. They had a giant accessible stall and then all of their other stalls were also accessible. They weren't all big. They were big enough. The doors were big enough for me to go in. They had grab bars in all of the stalls and they were big enough for a mom and two kids to fit in there as well. So that's a solution. Make everything accessible, stop retrofitting it for us to be like, “Oh, wait a minute, Let's, let's pop this in there, there, now it's accessible.” That's what our city of Edmonton is great at, is retrofitting retro fixing mistakes from 20 years ago. Oh, look, they have such a hard time thinking about the future. Like if we just thought about universal design right now, you won't have to go back and fix this in 20 years. It'll already be fixed. 

Dawn Taylor

So as a business owner, what is something right now that a business owner could do? If they have a storefront property, they have a business, What is something that they could do? 

Bean Gill

Um, first and foremost, talk to your landlord about the snow removal company that they have contracted. Make sure snow removal is done properly. Make sure that there is at least. Okay. So code says one accessible stall per six regular parking stalls. Anybody who does code, ook at like all these big Costco grocery stores. There's no code following there. Right. So making sure that there actually is a wheelchair accessible parking spot or two, is there a curb cut so you can get up onto the sidewalk to enter your building? Is that curb cut in the accessible parking stall? This is also a big no no. But a lot of people do it because to save space and to save time, a lot of snow removal companies will shovel all the snow off the sidewalk into the accessible stall via the curb cut and leave the curb cut filled with snow and ice. It's terrible. So people need to educate themselves as to what curb cuts are, why they're important, and then talk to their landlord. And the snow removal company about making sure that it's done properly. As far as accessibility goes, having an automatic door button for your exterior door of your building, it's a cost, that's for sure. It's about $3,000. But now you're opening up your business to so many people that wouldn't be able to access it. If there is a step to get into your building, think of constructing a plywood ramp and having it whether you can. If you can't leave it out there all the time, but you see somebody trying to come in, be like, “Hey, hang on, I got a ramp for you.” And pop the ramp out, help them up, leave it there until they can exit. And then now you are an accessible place and that person is going to tell all their friends about that. “Hey, look what these people did for me. It was amazing. They actually made it accessible.” Because too many times we get, “Oh, sorry. No, we're not accessible. Sorry for your luck.” And it's like, “Well, can we go a little bit further and try?”

Dawn Taylor

Right? Because how many people do you think like or do you know in Edmonton need accessibility?

Bean Gill

Oh, buddy. Mean just look at my client list alone It's over 300 people in my Wheelie Peeps group chat. We have like 110 people. But, like, statistically Edmonton as a population have a million. So guaranteed at least 10,000 people have disabilities at least. 

Dawn Taylor

That's a lot of people. But it's not just the person. It's their entire family. Yeah. 

Bean Gill

Think of moms and strollers, right? People don't think about moms and strollers and that that opens people's eyes up to be like, Oh, yeah, yeah. There's a lot of things we could do simply if everybody just was more intentional about it and actually put thought into their actions and as to why things are there. But again, that requires people with disabilities going into the able bodied world, accessing these services and making it known that, “Hey, I have value, I have worth, I'm here, see me, hear me, love me, accept me.”

Dawn Taylor

I adore you. I hope you know that. I love you so much, I. I want to thank you on behalf of anyone and everyone that thinks I know you have to. You got a bail right away. This is a busy woman. I hope you guys know how amazing this is that you guys even get to listen to being on this podcast because her schedule is nuts, bonkers, but so incredible. Like, you're changing, you're changing the world, and that is so huge and so powerful. And on behalf of anyone and everyone listening, I want to say thank you. Thank you for your vulnerability. Thank you for your honesty, your openness. Thank you for being willing to have these conversations. Thank you for wanting to challenge the norm. Right and what society is doing. I hope for people listening that your challenge, that your challenge to actually see this as a problem and even if it doesn't affect you personally, I bet my life it affects someone close to you. It is affecting people. And how do we as a society make it a little bit more inclusive. 

Bean Gill

I think a big way in taking a step towards that is removing the gap between able bodied and disabled. Right now, there's a gap, right? Right. If you think about it, if you're out there and you're listening and you wear glasses or wear your contacts, guess what? You have a disability. Right. It is awesome. Classes are normalized. It's normal to have eyesight impairments. I don't. My eyesight is amazing. My legs don't work like they used to.

Dawn Taylor

Right. So why is, like, one socially acceptable and one not?

Bean Gill

Exactly. So let's lessen that gap. And that does. How many eyeglass places do you see? How many commercials do we see on TV for glasses and contacts and stuff? How many commercials do you see on TV for wheelchairs or prosthetics? None. Because that's a stigma. So let's remove that gap. Let's put everybody on the same playing field and then go from there. And then you'll see that, hey, we're no different.

Dawn Taylor

Well, I think even, pay attention to what your stigma is, what your, bias is, right? Like. It's so interesting. People were like, “Oh, no, I'm fine.” I have no issues. And it's like, “No, no, no. Get yourself into a situation where you're faced with it and then pay attention to what the thoughts are that go on in your head or what your ideas are on something or any of those things.” I mean, we've talked about this where the first time we met in person, I was like, I was like, “I've never even thought about this.” Like, is this weird to sit like this or stand like this or do any of those things? And I was like, “Oh my gosh, this is like, where did these come from? How did I learn these weird ideas? And I know where and how and why, right?” Like it's our childhoods and TV and movies and all of those things. But I think we need to all just, one little tiny change.

Bean Gill

Yeah. And then they get to dismantle it. Like I had to dismantle all of my stereotypes and stigmas that I had towards people with disabilities even after I became it. Right. Like, my thought was that they are a burden. They need help with everything. They are on social assistance. They're poor, they're fat, they're unhealthy, they're unsuccessful. They're unsexy. They're unstylish. Yeah. These were the thoughts that I had towards people with disabilities. And now I'm sitting here like, But that's not me. Not at all. So I had to unlearn all these things. I had to dismantle all of this and be like, “No, I can be wealthy, I can be sexy, I can be stylish, I can be successful, I can be fun, I can be healthy, I can be fit and have a disability.” Yeah, all these things. 

Dawn Taylor

Because you're no different than anyone else. It's a choice. It is a choice. Oh, Bean. This was so fun. Thank you. Thank you, thank you. I'm watching the clock. We're hanging out with us today. And for listeners, I really hope that you learn something from this. If nothing else, say no when they want to put you in the wheelchair. Accessible hotel rooms say no when you want to go in the bathroom, don't park there. Like even these little things that you have no idea how much that could change someone else's life and someone else's day. Right? Smile, make eye contact, say hi. And if you do have weird judgments and weird things, stop being such a judgey pants. Get curious. And ask questions, right? Help people to help yourself understand people that are different than you. There's nothing greater than that. And just getting curious about people. So join us again in two weeks for another amazing topic. Please tell your friends and check out our show notes located at the TheTaylorWay.ca. We will definitely be putting information on how to contact Bean, her business, all of that fun stuff. And the show notes are there so you have no excuse. You can go read if you don't want to listen to every single thing that you recommended that you do. And please subscribe now on Apple, Spotify or wherever you listen to your podcasts. See you guys in a bit.

Content Warning: 

In this episode, we discuss some topics that listeners may find difficult such as life-threatening illnesses. 
 

Why you would want to listen to this episode…

Sam Alexandra Rose’s life was forever changed when she was diagnosed with not one, but three different illnesses. Yet, instead of letting these cancers derail her and take her life on a tailspin, she chose to define her life on her terms. As proud as she is for being a cancer survivor, she is many other things as well, being an accomplished writer, avid charity supporter and a dear friend to those around her. Today, Sam shares her story with Dawn on how she’s learned to not just live alongside her illnesses, but rise above them, too. 

Who this for

For those of us living without life-threatening illnesses, it can be difficult to fully empathize with any family members or friends who do. This episode is for those who wish to know what it’s like for people like them, and how just like you and me, not much has changed in how they live life. They still have needs, wants and aspirations, and this episode is for those who wish to be more receptive and sensitive to their loved ones. 

About Dawn Taylor

Dawn Taylor is the professional ass-kicker, hope giver, life strategist, trauma specialist, and all-around badass. Dawn's journey into helping others heal began when she took her personal recovery from the trauma she experienced in her life into her own hands. While at times unconventional, Dawn’s strategic methods have helped hundreds heal from traumas such as issues related to infidelity,  overcoming addiction,  working through PTSD from sexual, emotional, and physical abuse, as well as helping cult survivors thrive. Dawn’s work has empowered entrepreneurs, stay-at-home moms, and CEOs alike to be superheroes in their own lives. Having completed thousands of hours of training from many professional programs, including the Robbins Madanes Training Institute, Dawn’s blunt honesty will challenge your thinking, broaden your awareness, and help you achieve the outstanding results you are worthy of.

Connect with Dawn here at The Taylor Way: Consultation Call | Website | Facebook | Instagram | LinkedIn

Get to know Dawn on a deeper level through her book! Order Here

P.S. I Made It, is a powerful story that grabs you through its lack of pretension and honesty. Every page reveals another layer of curious wonder at both Dawn’s life and the power of hope that moves within each of us. Dawn’s hope is that you use this book as a resource to deal with your struggles. Share it with someone who needs it. We all want to feel like someone understands what it’s like to suffer through something and – come out the other side. She describes her life as “horrifically beautiful and beautifully horrific. 

Guest Bio

Sam Alexandra Rose is a writer from Northamptonshire, UK. She is a three-time cancer survivor with a rare genetic condition, and a PhD student researching the connection between creative writing and cancer survivorship. Her poetry and prose has been published in over 70 literary magazines and anthologies, and her memoir “Gut Feelings: Coping With Cancer and Living With Lynch Syndrome” was released in January 2021. She works as a patient and public involvement manager for a bowel disease research charity.

Guest Social Links

Email - [email protected]

Website - https://writersam.co.uk

Instagram - https://instagram.com/writersamr

Facebook - https://facebook.com/writersamr

Twitter - https://twitter.com/writersamr

The CMRRD book on Amazon - https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0CH23XH52

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Views Expressed, Legal and Medical Disclaimer

This podcast (including any/all site pages, blog posts, blog comments, forums, videos, audio recordings, etc.) is not intended to replace the services of a physician, nor does it constitute a doctor-patient relationship. Information is provided for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional medical advice. You should not use the information on this podcast for diagnosing or treating a medical or health condition. If you have or suspect you have an urgent medical problem, promptly contact your professional healthcare provider. Any application of the recommendations in this podcast/website is at the listener/reader's discretion. The views and opinions expressed are those of guests and do not necessarily reflect the opinion or policy of Dawn Taylor, The Taylor Way and or its Associates. The before mentioned are not liable for any direct or indirect claim or loss.

Transcript

Dawn Taylor

I am your host, Dawn Taylor. And today, I get to go talk to the lovely Sam. So, Sam is. What is Sam? Sam, by the way, has the greatest accent on the planet. Sam Alexandra Rose is a writer from Northamptonshire, UK. I'm really trying to read that, right, but it's an amazing name. Um, she is a three-time cancer survivor that has a rare genetic condition. And a PhD student researching the connection between writing creative or creative writing, sorry, and cancer survivorship, which in and of itself is crazy. Her poetry has and her prose have been published in over 70 literary magazines and anthologies, and her memoir, Gut Feelings: Coping with Cancer and Living with Lynch Syndrome was released in January 2021. So, if you want to find any of these things or access to Sam, please check out our show notes and I'll mention that again at the end. But, check out our show notes because you want to follow her. She works as a patient and public involvement manager for a bowel disease research charity, and she is here today to open up and to talk about a topic we wish people talked about and honestly, something that both of us have dealt with and are dealing with is - but we should be dead. And how do you live in that situation? So, Sam, welcome to the show.

Sam Alexandra Rose

Hi, Thanks for having me.

Dawn Taylor

You are so welcome. So what do you wish people talked about? 

Sam Alexandra Rose

I really wish that people talked more about the realities of cancer survivorship and living with the genetic condition and how that makes us, just the ways that we try to cope with that reality. Um, in terms of, as you said, how long am I going to be here for? Um, being just so, um. Uh, what's the word? I've lost my words already! Being so. Oh, sorry. The word is totally gone. 

Dawn Taylor

That's okay.

Sam Alexandra Rose

Ironically, the word word was impulsive. Yeah. And impatient about everything. And, yeah, just trying to kind of merge the two worlds of, like, the normal everyday world and the medical world that a lot of people don't know about.

Dawn Taylor

Oh, 100%. So my husband and I often joke that we live in a town called Realistic Denial because we still have to live in reality of the fact that we have conditions that could kill us tomorrow, that we are living on borrowed time, all of these things. But, we also have to live in this weird state called denial because we still have to be human and we still have to get out of bed every day and go to work and function and live and not live in that identity. So, let's start at the beginning for you. So, three-time cancer survivor. Talk to us about that. How old were you? When did you get diagnosed? What is it you were diagnosed with? You know, all the fun.

Sam Alexandra Rose

Okay. So I was first diagnosed with bowel cancer or colon cancer at the age of 22 back in 2010. And after I was diagnosed with bowel cancer, my consultant was like, “Well, you know, why has this happened to you so young?” We need to do some genetic testing on me, on my parents to find out what was going on. And it turned out that my parents have a genetic condition called Lynch Syndrome, which actually isn't very rare. But the thing is that a lot of people, apparently around 95% of people don't actually know that they have it, which is crazy to think that people are wandering around with this gene. Essentially, it increases your cancer risk for various types of cancer. Mostly it's colon cancer and it can increase your risk of colon cancer to up to 80%.

Dawn Taylor

Holy cow. That is a big number. 

Sam Alexandra Rose

It is. 

Dawn Taylor

And the majority of people have no idea.

Sam Alexandra Rose

No, no. A lot of people probably haven't even heard of it. Even those that have it, probably.

Dawn Taylor

So okay, so really quick, because I'm like, “What?” I could have this and I know about it. How do you even get tested for this?

Sam Alexandra Rose

So if your family has a high number of instances of people with bowel cancer or different other types of cancer, so, it's bowel cancer, um, like gynecological cancers like womb cancer and some others as well. It kind of depends on which genes are involved. Um, but I, actually, uh, when I went one step further and so what happened to me was I inherited lynch syndrome from both of my parents, which is a really rare thing to do. Um, and actually, they estimate that only 1 in 1,000,000 people have this condition. So what it is, is you inherit Lynch syndrome from both of your parents. So, it's like the odds of getting two people with Lynch syndrome together to begin with, who then have a kid who then has the bad luck of inheriting Lynch syndrome, not just from one parent, because you could potentially not inherit it from any of the parents like my sister did. She doesn't have Lynch syndrome or what I have at all. Um, but yeah, so what I ended up with was something called CMRD or constitutional mismatch repair deficiency, which is a bit of a mouthful. Um, but as you can imagine, if Lynch syndrome increases your cancer risk, then having it from both parents increases your cancer risk even further. And that's, that also involves things like brain cancer and brain tumors. And we found out actually that my brother also had CMRD, but we didn't realize at the time. So he died when he was 16. I was one year old back in 1989, so we know now that that was because of CMRD as well. 

Dawn Taylor

Wow. Okay. There are so much we could unpack there. I can't imagine being your parents. And knowing that genetically, this is something that they gave you. And I don't mean that in a blame or anything like that, but I know my husband and myself like both of us having conditions that were genetic. That was one of our reasons. And when we realized we couldn't have kids on our own, we didn't want to do a surrogate. We didn't want to use our DNA because we were like, “I would never want to give this to somebody.” Right? And so, like, there's so many. Okay. I don't know where you're willing to go with this, but there's so many, so many directions. 

Sam Alexandra Rose

I’ll go anywhere. 

Dawn Taylor

So, okay, so let's start there. Right off the bat, like, how have your parents dealt with the fact? That they know that it was like their genetics that has not caused this, but do you know what I mean? Yeah. How did they deal with that?

Sam Alexandra Rose

I mean, we don't really talk about that side of it too much as a family. But, I do know that they do feel some kind of guilt, which of course isn't rational or anything, you know, because nobody can help what they pass on. But yeah, I think they do feel like a bit of guilt over that. But it's not, it's not really something that we talk about or dwell on too much. I think we just, we take things in our stride. Whatever happens, happens, you know, we just get on with it. Really? 

Dawn Taylor

Yeah. And so for your sister who doesn't have this. Does she live in fear of it at all? Is there a way she could develop it at some point? Is she at higher risk or she's just healthy and good? 

Sam Alexandra Rose

Dhe's just fine, which is I mean, she's got two children as well, which is great because it means that  she didn't get it and therefore she didn't pass it on to my niece and nephew as well. 

Dawn Taylor

Yeah, which is wild. So what has your journey looked like having Lynch syndrome? You got cancer very young, right? Incredibly young. And what has your journey continued to look like? 

Sam Alexandra Rose

Yeah, so I had that first cancer. I had my entire colon removed, which meant I had a stoma. I had, you know, like a colostomy bag for five months, just a temporary one. And then what they can do is always think that the science of it is quite cool. They can do a reversal in some cases. So, what they did is they kind of put the stoma kind of back in essentially, and they make a makeshift large intestine out of a part of your small intestine, and that learns to like absorb fluid in the way that a large intestine would, which I think is pretty, pretty clever. So, yeah, it's like essentially plumbing, plumbing me back together. So I've got, I'm kind of normal again. Or it's normal. Normal as I can be. Um, so, so, yeah. So that was in 2010 and then 2011 had the reversal, later in 2011, we had the genetic testing. And then that meant that we, what I had to have all kinds of tests every year because I'm so much higher risk. So, it's things like something called a flexible sigmoidoscopy, which is similar to a colonoscopy. But, because I don't have a colon anymore, obviously it doesn't go quite that far up. So, it's like a mini colonoscopy, really. Um, I have a gastro escapee every year, which is the camera down the throat and into the stomach and looking at the small bowel. Um, I had a CT scan once a year for just, like five years. I think that was just, like, related to surgery more than anything else, and a capsule endoscopy I have at the moment. And these, that sort of came later. But, the capsule endoscopy is when you swallow like a little camera, um, like, like a little sort of tablet and you wear a recording device that speaks to it and the camera travels down your throat and into your stomach and small bowel and eventually, like during the day, you like, poop it out. Basically. they don't want it back. They're very clear they don't want it back.

Dawn Taylor

That is really funny. 

Dawn Taylor

So, yeah, it's like a less invasive way to have a look at, like, your small bowel and kind of the parts that the colon can't can't find. Um. So I had several years of all of these tests and kind of the fear of recurrence that comes with it and all of that sort of stuff. And then in 2018, I had my annual routine gastroscopy. Around the same time, I had an MRI to look at a completely unrelated problem. I was getting recurring abscesses, um, down below to put it politely. So, I had an MRI. Um, but when they looked at the MRI, they sort of, we never heard about the abscesses again, basically because what they saw was a problem. I can't exactly remember how they described it, but they said there was a problem with the lining of my womb. And all of this kind of happened at the same time. And the gastrostomy that I went to, they said that they found a polyp. They marked it as urgent, a polyp, I should say. It's just like a little sort of growth, like a tumor type thing that may or may not be cancerous. Some polyps are just just benign. Um, but they said that they found it and they sent it off for testing marked urgent. So, you can already tell. Well, that's not a very good sign. Um, we went on a family holiday, came back to loads of, like, voicemail messages from the hospital. Can you call us? And essentially I got two. I kind of got two cancer diagnoses within two days of each other, which, as you can imagine, was just absolutely horrendous.

Dawn Taylor

I can't even imagine. 

Sam Alexandra Rose

Yeah, it was awful. So I had to meet my consultant at the hospital and they said, go meet him on the ward because he isn't in his office where he would normally be because it's not part of his sort of consulting hours which again, bad sign. Um, and he said, “Yeah, you have duodenal cancer.” So the name is a small part of the small bowel. Um, and I was kind of expecting it because they said, you know, the gastrostomy we've taken something with marked it as urgent for testing. So I was weirdly calm about it. Um, yeah, because I was sort of expecting it. What wasn't expecting was the next day at my gynecology appointment for them to say, “You have definitely precancerous and possibly cancerous cells in your womb.” And then they later confirmed that it was cancer. And then they were very surprised that I was relieved that I was that it was early stage cancer because they said, you see the pre-cancer or it's early cancer. And in my head I was thinking, “But what if they're wrong? What if it's actually stage three? Stage four?” You know, your mind just, like, goes into overdrive. Um, so when they said to me, it's early stage cancer, I was like, “Okay, good.” I'm not good. But, you know, they're like, “Wait a sec. What’s wrong with you?” 

Dawn Taylor

“That reaction's not what we were expecting.” 

Sam Alexandra Rose

Yeah, but it's like, well, whether it's precancerous or it's cancerous, you have to do something about it anyway, So, what difference does it make? So, yeah. And so after that, we, my partner and I went to a fertility consultant to talk about options, and they said that you could have surgery now, like have everything removed, you know, womb, ovaries, because there was a risk of ovarian cancer as well. Uh, do that, do all that now and get it done or there's this other treatment that may or may not work. Um, kind of remember the details of it now. And he, you might want to do this or you might want to hold off surgery if you want to try and, like, get pregnant first or if you want, because we don't have we didn't have biological children. Yeah, well, they said that you could freeze your eggs. Um, but in order to do that, they would be stimulating the ovaries, which could also stimulate the lining of the womb, which could in turn cause the cancer to grow. So, me and my partner kind of immediately both agreed. Well, we don't want to do any of that, you know? Yes, we kind of envisaged ourselves having children at some point. Um, but we were on the same page that we both didn't want to take a risk, so we just said, “Yeah, okay, total hysterectomy. Just do it now. Get rid of everything.” So that's what we ended up doing in September 2018. And then they said, “Once you've recovered from your hysterectomy, we will do a surgery to deal with the duodenal cancer.” And this was all quite a long time coming because that summer was very much two teams kind of fighting over me and trying to decide what they were going to do with me because I was quite an unusual case. And so, in November they did the Whipple surgery, which was removal of the head of the pancreas, the duodenal, because that's where the cancer was, the bile duct and the gallbladder. So, it's quite a big operation. They know they normally do it for pancreatic cancer and it was about an eight-hour surgery. Two hours of that was just, like, dealing with adhesions, you know, when, like, organs get, like, stuck together, they have to prise them apart before they can do anything with them. And that was two days, I think, in the high dependency unit at the hospital, sort of similar to the ICU and then another seven days in a regular ward. So, yeah, really difficult to recover from that. In November. That will be five years ago and I will hopefully be five years cancer-free if nothing happens between now and then. 

Dawn Taylor

Okay, for starters. Holy shit. Okay, I'm just going to say it because everyone's thinking it. To deal with all of this at such a young age and then dealing with these massive decisions, cancers that are notm like it's very, it's not common to recover from some of these cancers, right?  But then in the middle of that, you're fighting for your own life. You're fighting with, like, “Can I have kids? Can I not have kids?” Making that decision to make that final that you couldn't have both children, right? Like there's so many parts and pieces of this. so many parts. So, before we dive into that, what are the risks or the chances of you getting cancer again? 

Sam Alexandra Rose

I don't really know. And I try not to think about it too much. Some things you just don't want to Google, I think.

Dawn Taylor

Oh, I can. I can totally see that. I do want to say for anyone who is like, “Okay, how rare is this Lynch syndrome?” What, like, this is crazy. Um, according to the Cleveland Clinic in this state for cancer, Lynch syndrome occurs in approximately 1 in 279 individuals in the United States. So, just think about that number for a second. I'm amazed. I'm amazed that more people aren't being tested for this. But I also know I'm go,ing to talk to my doctor and ask if I can be tested for this, because that's just wild. So, now let's move forward a few years. You're recovering from three cancers in a very short period of time. And now it's time to live again, and some of you and I had talked about in our initial conversation before recording this today was that feeling of the life you thought you were going to have died. And I think anyone who's had any sort of massive health issue, anyone who's had anything in their life not going according to plan, understands very much what that feels like. But, when you're faced with death, it's very different, right? So when you're in a position where you could die in, you're literally fighting for your life with medical treatments. It's hard to live after. It can be incredibly difficult to actually live after. Let's dive into that. 

Sam Alexandra Rose

I think it's difficult both in the long term and in the short term as well, because you have the long term of maybe life not turning out how you thought it would so for example, not being able to have biological children. But then also you have in the short term just trying to live day to day, especially when, okay, so the cancer may be gone. All three of them, but there's still the yearly testing that I have to have, all those different tests and and more have been added as well because of the CMRD. So I also have now a brain and full body MRI. So ,every six months I have a brain MRI and every year I have a  full body MRI as well. And it's just that living, trying to live day to day when you get an appointment letter through the door saying “Come to see us for an MRI, come to see us for this capsule endoscopy, and also you have to drink bowel prep, which is completely disgusting.”

If you haven't had anything like this in Canada, it's awful. Yeah, it's horrible. And that's like a three day affair, right? So you have the bowel prep that you have to drink the day before and then you go to the appointment on the day. And then if you have sedation for your procedure, then you can't, like, drive for 24 hours afterwards. It is basically a three day thing. I'm just remembering when I had one at the beginning of this year, I did the bowel prep and I really wasn't feeling well and I was thinking bowel prep doesn't really usually make me feel this bad. Woke up the next morning. I feel absolutely awful. Gotta go to the hospital, like as soon as I wake up, basically, did a COVID test. I had COVID for the first time and I drank the bowel prep for no reason.

Dawn Taylor

Sorry, I shouldn't laugh, but having been there, I'm like, “Oh my gosh, everybody wants to bowel prep for no reason.” No one.

Sam Alexandra Rose

No. I can laugh about it now, but yeah, just, just remembering that. Yeah,  it's this whole thing of, you know, tests may crop up at any time and say you're just, you're at work, you're just at your desk doing your job, and then you have a phone call, you know, come in, make an appointment or you're waiting for results. And it's just always at the back of your mind. So it's, yeah, the short term and the long term, I think.

Dawn Taylor

Absolutely. Have you struggled with letting people close to you? I know one of my struggles was I was so terrified that people would know me or like me or love me, and then I would die. Or that I was too much for people because of health issues, right? Where it was like, you know what, I don't want anyone else to have to be part of this. I don't want anyone else to have to be in the hospital or worrying about me or driving me for tests or surgeries or any of those things. And it, I don't know if this is the correct wording on it, but it almost became like a weapon for me over the years of just, like, holding people at an arm's length. Right, because it did. It really felt like if I let you too close, this is just going to get hurt. And then either you're going to reject me and abandon me down the road or you're going to lose me or something's going to happen and I'm going to get hurt. And that makes no sense. And I don't want to do that. 

Sam Alexandra Rose

I think I'm really lucky in that my partner and I have been together for a really long time. So we met in 2006 at university, so we'd been together about four years before my first cancer diagnosis. We're still together now, and he's, he's brilliant. Um, but I mean, the thing that upsets me the most, if I think about it too much, is like, what if something does happen again and it's the worst outcome? And then I have to leave him. And that's just the thought of him having to manage with me not being here. That is the most upsetting thing. 

Dawn Taylor

Has it changed? So my partner and I also, my husband and I have been together since way before the aneurysm, right? And he also is brilliant and stuck it out. You and I both chose very well. But what about with friends? 

Sam Alexandra Rose

Yeah, it's. It's complicated, I think. Um. Sometimes, I think that people were my friends maybe a little bit more while I was unwell. And then once you're kind of okay and you know, well, they think that you're okay and recovered, then there's that drop in attention. And especially after my first diagnosis and my surgery, I spent a few years just feeling so sad about everything that had happened, afraid of what was going to happen next and I guess I really still needed people several years later to check on me and say, “Are you, you know, emotionally okay?” because I was not. But people don't know that, which I guess is what spurs me on to do things like come here and talk to you because people need to know that people who have had cancer or other illnesses, it takes its emotional toll and you've got to check in on people.

Dawn Taylor

Yeah. And I think a lot of the emotional toll isn't immediate. I know for myself it always hits later, right? So I'll recover from whatever I'm going through, say, I'm feeling amazing in April or May typically it's, like, four months later. My cycle is four months and it's like four months later is when I'm like, blah. And I feel like that's when I fall apart and that's when I really, really struggle. And yeah, people that haven't, you know, okay, so this is something interesting because I've had this conversation recently with some friends is if you haven't been through it, yay, glad you haven't dealt with really traumatic health issues, right? But you also just don't understand, like, you don't get it and there's no way you can, but also from the side of the person who's dealing with a health issue. We need to step up and go “This is what I need from you. But part of that is also can you provide that?” Right? Like, do you have the capacity? Do you have the capacity to provide what it is I need in that arena, right? And I've had friends over the years that are phenomenal at the like, “Hey, I need you to call me on like every Friday and be like “Are you alive or are you good?” Right? And they're like “Done.” They'll put it in their calendars and like, that works for them and other people. It's like, “Hey. Can you not ever talk to me about my health? Can every conversation we have nothing to do with my health? Because I really just need to not think about it right now.” And they'll be like, “Yep, absolutely.” To people that go, “Hey. You're not well.” I know when I was doing some really, really heavy treatments about two years ago, I was in Edmonton a lot and people didn't know I was here. There were a few core people in my life that knew I was here, and it was very interesting how one of those, there was one night he called me and he arrives and I was like, “I'm just done now. Like I'm just on my way home.” And he's like, “Come to my house.” And I was like, “No, I don't have the energy.” And he's like, “No.” He's like “We're going to feed you. We're going to tuck you on the couch on a blanket, and you get to just lay there and just not be alone. But we'll ignore you.” And I don't know if I've ever told them how much that meant to me. Right, that it was like, “No, you don't have to show up in any way. You can show up in your pajamas. You can lay there and cry if you need to. Like, we're just going to make sure you're okay.” He's like, “We will take care of you. Like, we will drive you back to your hotel when you're done and you're ready to not be around people. But I just don't want you to be alone tonight.” And I showed up and was like, “Thank you”. There were no expectations of me. I didn't have to choose that. I wanted to eat. I didn't have to, you know, make any decisions. And I did. I literally laid on his couch under a blanket while him and his wife did their thing and their son was tootling around and, you know, I just laid there and watched whatever was on the TV and it felt so safe and I don't know about you, but we often hide how bad it is, and we hide where we're at with our health. So that we never feel like we're too much for people. 

Sam Alexandra Rose

Yeah. And yeah, it's difficult, isn't it? Communicating about health, especially like with people that are close to us, but also people who are that little bit further away. I'm thinking about just like when a colleague says like, “Hi, how are you?” Which should be a completely innocent question, you know, there would be days where like either I'm thinking I don't have the energy to, um, to say, “Yes, I'm fine.” because I'm not fine. I just want to shout at you all the things that are wrong, but at the same time, also I don't have the energy to not lie and to, you know, go into all all of the detail as well. So yeah, it manifests in lots of different ways. But I had a similar friend actually, who let me just go to his house and sort of crashed there because I was at work. It was in 2018, so around the time of um, my second and third diagnoses and I was at work and I got like a phone call or some news or something that upset me. And I talked to my manager and she was like, “Do you want to go home?” And I said, “Yeah.” So instead of going home, I went to, um, or went to a supermarket to pick up some lunch. And then I went to my friend's house and he only lived about 15 minutes away. And he was  like, “Yeah, sure, come over. I'm going to a job interview soon, but you can just hang at my house.” So I went over to his house. I told him a little bit about what was happening. Um, we hung out for a bit and then he went to his job interview and I just sat alone in his house, which, thinking about it now, was just a little bit weird. But I played on his guitar a little bit. I just sort of tried to have a nap on the couch and just waited for him to come home. And then we went to the pub and had a drink.

Dawn Taylor

Right? it is funny like talking about it and even that night, like it was probably weird that he invited me over to do that, but it felt so good, right? So closing off this area of this because then I want to dive into something more fun in this whole situation or quirky about both of us. For anyone listening who has a friend with a health issue. What do you recommend? What do you recommend for the significant others or the friends of someone who is in a situation like yours or a situation like mine, or dealing with a health issue where there is a lot of like, future fear, current fear, right? And also just like so much unknown, What do you recommend for them on how to support?

Sam Alexandra Rose

I think the problem with communication is that sometimes there's a lot of guessing and maybe it's a good idea to just ask the person, like, “Do you want to talk about this? Do you want advice on this? Do you want to be distracted? And should we just talk about something else or do something else?” Um. Especially when like, it's in the thick of it, so like just after surgery or something, when somebody's recovering for something or going through treatment, then, like, sending messages again, this is something that that my friend, the same friend did, sending messages and explicitly saying, “You don't have to reply to this. There's no expectation from my end for you to contribute. I'm just telling you about my day or I'm just checking in. Hope you're okay.” Um, yeah, I think that was really nice. And it's along the similar lines, isn't it? Yeah, Just just come and chill at my house. It's like the text equivalent of that.

Dawn Taylor

Oh, totally. And I think the one thing I would add to it is I had people actually get upset with me for not staying in good enough contact with them. And telling them what was going on and including them in things and incorporating them into that side of my world at that point. And that was really hard, and I remember, after when someone was like, “I heard you were here nonstop for medical treatments.” And I said, “Yeah, I was.” And. It was really interesting. The comment that came out of their mouth shouldn't have shocked me, but it did. They were like, “And you didn't even call me?” And I remember just I was like, “No, no, I didn't.” and they're like, “Well, I thought we were friends.”

And I was like, “I'm pretty sure that I was spending my time in medical treatments because my body was shutting down and I felt like I was dying and I didn't have any capacity for people.” Right? I had no capacity for people. And I think that changes on where we draw our energy from, right? As an introvert, it decreased my capacity. As an extrovert. I might increase someone's capacity to be like, I need people more, right? But I think, like, I know a lot of people really struggled with that with me because I've had conversations with people about it where I go internal, I cocoon. So, when I'm going through something, you will stop hearing from me. When I'm going through something, I will not reach out. I will not ask for help. I'm not going to tell you I'm struggling. Like, that's not my natural go to, my natural go to is I just curl completely inward and go, “Okay, now I have to take care of me and I don't actually care who's outside of that.“ Right? And it's not. It's not a rejection of the other person, right? It's not a rejection of you. It's me just trying to protect me in that moment. And so to understand as a friend or a family member, like what is your capacity? What can you handle? And if you don't have the capacity to send out a daily update on how you're doing, right? That's okay. It's okay that you don't have that capacity and I'm not going to ask it of you. 

Sam Alexandra Rose

But there's too many people to update anyway on a regular basis. 

Dawn Taylor

Oh, my goodness. There were too many. And, you know, it was interesting the people that were like, “Hey. What do you need right now?” And I'd be like, “Can you just check in on me, like, once a week? Just, like, send a prayer for me? Can you like?” You know, things like that. But I also had a friend that I remember one day there was like this crazy long day of IVs. Like, I was there for almost eight hours. And a friend called and she's like, “Can I just come in like, sit with you?” And I was like, “Yes. Yes you can.” And she just, like, crack jokes. And we laughed and we talked and like, I cried. And she literally just, like, held my hand. And that was the most beautiful thing ever. Because she was like, “Hey, this is what I want to do. Are you okay with that?” 

Sam Alexandra Rose

And that was when somebody comes with an idea of how to to help rather than relying on you

Dawn Taylor

Yeah. “What do you need?” And you're like, “I don't know.”

Sam Alexandra Rose

Exactly.

Dawn Taylor

And my answer often was like, “Coffee. I need a coffee.” And they’d laugh. “Like, that's it? That's all you need?” I was like, “I don't know what else to tell you.” So, now let's fast forward. How has having a diagnosis like that cancer three times knowing you're such at a high risk, right? And all of these things in these shifts. How has it shifted your everyday life? 

Sam Alexandra Roae

So, people say don't let cancer define you and all of that kind of stuff. I've kind of gone the other way. Yeah, I don't really like that sort of advice anyway for lots of different reasons. Um, I don't like, kind of being told that I might be doing it wrong somehow. As if there's a right and wrong way to do cancer.

To do cancer recovery. 

Dawn Taylor

Oh, come on. There's a book, isn't there, that tells you how to do it perfectly?  I'm kidding. I'm kidding. 

Sam Alexandra Rose

Um, so. Well, in early 2019, after I'd recovered as I was recovering from my Whipple surgery, and I was just trying to fill life up with everything but the kitchen sink, I decided that I'd quite like to do a PhD. And so I'm currently in I'm about to start year five of six of my part time PhD. It is long. It's good. I'm enjoying it. Um, but yeah, so my PhD is in creative writing, so I'm writing poetry. It started off being about my cancer experiences, but also it kind of morphed into, well, I'm a writer. I've always been a writer, so naturally I've been writing about cancer since about 2012 when I sort of started to get to grips with everything that had happened. So, about 2020 when I was doing this, PhD came to the realization, I've been writing about cancer for about eight years. Actually, maybe I don't want to do quite so much of that anymore. But then the question becomes, “Well, who else am I apart from being a cancer survivor?” And that became a difficult question to answer, but that's that kind of writing about identity and trying to explore that. My PhD is not just a PhD anymore. Because of that, it's a whole like exploration of myself. So,, that's kind of the main thing, really. I mean, plus talking to people like this on podcasts and blogging and writing books. And it's quite funny since in the time between we had this initial conversation about me coming on and talking to you and today for me coming on and talking to you, I decided I wanted to write another book. I wrote another book and it's coming out on the 2nd of September because I work very fast now.

Dawn Taylor

You do! That's incredible. Okay. So we will put a link. I'm going to get you to send me the link for that book for where people could find it. And, we are 100% going to put that in the show notes. So, does it do you think it speeds you up, slows you down? Does it make you try different things? Like,  I'm often kind of spontaneous, right? Because I'm like, “But I should be dead.” So today is borrowed time and I'm gonna have fun. 

Sam Alexandra Rose

That's it. And it wasn't until recently because and it's kind of what my second book is about, is kind of going from denial to acceptance because it has taken me a long time to accept that I have CMRD because just a couple of years ago, I wouldn't even be saying the words. I'd be just trying not to think about it. But yes. So, it's been a long time trying to come to terms with all of it and it's definitely made me more spontaneous, I think. Um, I mean, there's a few things that I've done that I probably wouldn't have done if I hadn't had cancer. And just kind of knowing, um, about comedy in the statistics because the average person with CMD gets their first cancer diagnosis at seven and a half years old.

Dawn Taylor

Wow. 

Sam Alexandra Rose

So a lot of children unfortunately don't make it because a lot of it is brain tumors. And, you know, there's a high sort of recurrence and things like that. So it is kind of thinking, well. I could say I think I'll do such and such one day. Oh, yeah, I'd like to do that. Maybe one day isn't really in my vocabulary anymore. Because what if. What is one day? That's nothing, You know, that doesn't really mean anything. What if one day never comes? What about today? So that's why I've done things like, um, been in a hot air balloon. I did a fire walk one year. That was quite cool. 

Dawn Taylor

Um, very cool. I've done it. It's amazing. I recommend it. I highly recommend it to everyone. Do a fire walk. At some point in your life, 

Sam Alexandra Rose

Did you always have like, a really kind of motivational, like, speech and kind of team building thing before you did it?

Dawn Taylor

Yeah.

Sam Alexandra Rose

That's cool. 

Dawn Taylor

Oh, yeah. It's crazy. It is so cool.

Sam Alexandra Roae

Yeah, I love that. I got the idea from watching The Office because it's my favorite TV show, and I just. I watched them doing a fire walk in one episode. I was like, “I want to do that. I'm gonna do that.” And that was it. And I found somewhere that was doing it. I was like, “Yeah, that's it. I'm doing it.”

Dawn Taylor

That is awesome. So, one last thing, and then I will let you go. I know it's very late at night there right now. You talked earlier, you mentioned earlier about the whole identity thing and I'm sure you see this all the time is people have a diagnosis and then they own it. It's like they wear it like a cape and it's who they are and what they are, not what happened to them and what's created who they are. And I will admit I've been guilty of that a lot in my life myself, right?  You talked about the fact that you don't like when people say that, right? To not own that and not identify as that. Can you explain that a little bit? What are your thoughts on that?

Sam Alexandra Rose

Yeah, I mean, that definitely sounds like me, to be honest. You know, somebody who's just sort of taken it and kind of took ownership of it and I guess maybe made it who I am, but I guess in a positive way. And I suppose if you do that, then it's fine. I mean, essentially there's no doing things right or wrong at the end of the day as they're all just desperately trying to get by as best we can. Um, yeah. I don't really like when people say, “Oh, don't let it define you.” Um, because it kind of makes it sound like I don't have control or I do have control. I think it makes it sound like I do have control over the situation. And sometimes with cancer, you just don't. And yeah, again, I don't want to be told that I'm doing it wrong. I think that I have harnessed it in a positive way, but I do often think what would life be like if it wasn't for that? You know, what would I be doing right now? Because I work for a bowel disease charity, and that came about because of my patient experiences. So, that wouldn't have happened if I hadn't have had cancer, I wouldn't be, I might doing my PhD now, but it wouldn't it wouldn't be in my cancer experiences. It would be, I have no idea. Something else. So. And it's the thing as well. When people say, “Oh, you're so brave.” or “You inspire me.” “I think you're amazing.” All of this sort of stuff. And it's like I haven't done anything inspirational. If you're just talking about my illness, I've done nothing. I've done what I was told to do by the doctors.I've just existed. Don't compliment me for existing, but actually I think that it's what you do with it. It's like, yeah, okay. I don't think that I'm brave or anything for having gone through an illness experience. What I do think is brave is when I and other people take our illness experience and we talk about it, we write about it, we try to make other people feel better. By sharing our experiences, we create something beautiful out of it. We create anything, anything that we're happy with. Writing, drawing, crafting, whatever it is, and just try to spin something positive out of it. I think that those are things that people should be commended for. You get no credit for living. That's a quote from, sorry, but I can't remember who it is. It was a writer who was talking about writing memoir, and she was just saying, “You can't just write, um, your, your story kind of from beginning to end as it happened. It's like, what is the actual story within that? What's the angle? What did you take from it? You know, you don't get any credit for for living the story. You get credit for what you do with it afterwards.” I guess.

Dawn Taylor

I love that so much. Sorry. It hit me. It hit me in the feels when you said that in a good way of often when people are like, I don't know how you've survived, I don't know how you've done what you've done to even be here. I'm like, “I just did. I just kept living.” Right? What I'm so proud of is how hard I have fought to be who I am. How I've turned and how you've turned these things that we've been through into something beautiful, into something that can inspire someone or help somebody or be something amazing. And thank you for that. Thank you for that, because I think it's so true. I think it's so true. You know, I think of this every day. And when you and I first had our initial conversation. It's like, man, someone who's been through so much and you've turned it around. You didn't just curl up and die, right? Like you didn't take that as your identity as like, you're the cancer girl, and now that's it. And you've curled up and died within that and just suffered within that. And it's been a pity thing or a victim thing. You took that and you wrote about it. You're turning it into, you know, your job and your career and your future and all of those things. And I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing that with the rest of us. 

Sam Alexandra Rose

Oh, thanks for giving me the opportunity to, yeah, come on. It's always really good to talk to somebody who just gets this kind of thing.

Dawn Taylor

Oh, more than I care to admit. I probably talked too much in today's episode is what I'll get told. And that's okay. Honestly, like, I love the conversation that we just had and how we both get it. We both just get it and don't know we're part of this weird club we don't want to be part of. And that's okay. That's okay because we're doing cool things with it. So, I want to thank you again so much like so, so much, Sam, for hanging out today. Thank you, listeners, for being here. And if you are owning your identity, if you are owning something that's happened in your life, it's not about doing it right or wrong. It's not about any of that. It's what are you going to do with it? How are you going to use it? It could be a gift or it could be a curse. It's a double edged sword either way. So what are you going to do with it? So if you want to find Miss Sam, check out the show notes located at TheTaylorWay.ca, and you can find a link for her new book. Oh, my goodness. I'm so excited. I will be ordering it. And for all of her other stuff. Find where she's published, read her poetry, support her.  I know that it's always very appreciated when you guys connect with our guests. Join us again in two weeks for another fun topic, or hard topic? I mean, that's what the podcast is about. But honestly, share this episode to someone you know who has dealt with cancer, has dealt with a health issue that's really felt like they've lost their identity through it so that they can feel seen and heard and understood. Subscribe now on Apple, Spotify or wherever you listen to your podcasts and if you love the show, please leave a rating and review. Thank you so much, guys. See you in a couple of weeks. 

Content Warning: In this episode, we discuss some topics that listeners may find difficult such as drug and alcohol addiction. 

Why you would want to listen to this episode

Max Larocque has lived most of his life as a fully-functioning addict. Smoking weed and drinking alcohol are things he’s wrestled with behind closed doors, however, he does so without sacrificing his most important priorities, such as work and fitness. However, during a crucial point in his life, Max discovered that as good as he was at hiding things - addiction was still an addiction. Today on the podcast, Max bravely opens up about his struggles and shares with us the steps he took, big and small, to lead him to recovery and take back control of his life. 

Who this for...

Addiction can show up in many different faces and degrees of frequency. It’s not always the same for everyone and everyone who’s gone through it will deal with it in ways unique to them. For those who are curious about how addiction can manifest differently for people, or for those who are seeking out a voice like Max’s when it comes to detailing the road to recovery, this episode is for you.

About Dawn Taylor

Dawn Taylor is the professional ass-kicker, hope giver, life strategist, trauma specialist, and all-around badass. Dawn's journey into helping others heal began when she took her personal recovery from the trauma she experienced in her life into her own hands. While at times unconventional, Dawn’s strategic methods have helped hundreds heal from traumas such as issues related to infidelity,  overcoming addiction,  working through PTSD from sexual, emotional, and physical abuse, as well as helping cult survivors thrive. Dawn’s work has empowered entrepreneurs, stay-at-home moms, and CEOs alike to be superheroes in their own lives. Having completed thousands of hours of training from many professional programs, including the Robbins Madanes Training Institute, Dawn’s blunt honesty will challenge your thinking, broaden your awareness, and help you achieve the outstanding results you are worthy of.

Connect with Dawn here at The Taylor Way: Consultation Call | Website | Facebook | Instagram | LinkedIn

Get to know Dawn on a deeper level through her book! Order Here

P.S. I Made It, is a powerful story that grabs you through its lack of pretension and honesty. Every page reveals another layer of curious wonder at both Dawn’s life and the power of hope that moves within each of us. Dawn’s hope is that you use this book as a resource to deal with your struggles. Share it with someone who needs it. We all want to feel like someone understands what it’s like to suffer through something and – come out the other side. She describes her life as “horrifically beautiful and beautifully horrific. 

Guest Bio

Our guest is Max Larocque. He has been a fitness coach for a little over 13 years and has been a certified life coach for the last 6 of those years. Max is 2.5 years alcohol free and he has a dog named Lucy who is his entire world.

Guest Social Links

Website - www.maxlarocquefitness.com

Instagram - @maxlarocquefit

Podcast - The Squats and Sober Thoughts Podcast

Dopamine Nation (book recommendation) - https://www.amazon.com/Dopamine-Nation-Finding-Balance-Indulgence/dp/152474672X

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Views Expressed, Legal and Medical Disclaimer

This podcast (including any/all site pages, blog posts, blog comments, forums, videos, audio recordings, etc.) is not intended to replace the services of a physician, nor does it constitute a doctor-patient relationship. Information is provided for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional medical advice. You should not use the information on this podcast for diagnosing or treating a medical or health condition. If you have or suspect you have an urgent medical problem, promptly contact your professional healthcare provider. Any application of the recommendations in this podcast/website is at the listener/reader's discretion. The views and opinions expressed are those of guests and do not necessarily reflect the opinion or policy of Dawn Taylor, The Taylor Way and or its Associates. The before mentioned are not liable for any direct or indirect claim or loss. 

Transcript 

Dawn Taylor

I am your host, Dawn Taylor, and today we are going to talk to Max. Max is a personal trainer. He is a dad to a dog. He's like, “Dad? Wait a second.” He is two and a half years alcohol-free. He's had a few lapses with some cannabis, but he's working on that. We are going to dive into life. We are going to dive into where this all started, where this all came from, and really dig into this topic of the fact that alcohol does not discriminate based on your appearance or based on what is showing up on the outside, right? What's going on behind closed doors can be so different. But we're also going to go a little bit deeper on this into what is really going on behind the scenes. He is also a fitness coach that for over 13 years he's owned his own company. He's a partner in a company and he does life coaching within that. So, if you want to contact him like normal, you know that you need to go check out the show notes. We're going to have all of his contact information there and how you can get a hold of him also with any resources we're going to talk about in the show. But let's dive right in. Welcome to the show, Max.

Max Larocque

Thank you so much for having me, Dawn. I'm excited. It's been a while since I've been on a podcast.

Dawn Taylor

I was so excited when you were recommended to me because I know this is a topic that people want to talk about. I don't know anyone who does not have someone in their life who is an addict or who was an addict or has dealt with addiction or they are themselves. And I think there's such negative light attached to it, but also just such a lack of understanding and knowing around the whole topic. So, let's dive in. I know I said we're going to just dive right into this. So, let's start with what happened to even guide you to have an addiction. Let's start there. 

Max Larocque

So growing up, my dad was an RCMP officer and he really strived to move up the ranks as fast as he could, which obviously worked out well. My dad was a great provider, and in his interpretation of fatherhood, as long as he was a good financial provider, then that meant that he was a phenomenal parent. So, by no means is there any sort of blame or anything along the lines towards my parents, but the moves and the instability and the things that came with transferring across province to province, all across Canada, I think I moved seven times before I was twelve, was a lot. A lot, yeah, it's definitely festered into a lot of trust issues and things like that. Just because of the fact that I basically had no choice as a kid, if I wanted to stay somewhere, it didn't really matter. We were up and moving and I really had no say in the matter. So there was an aspect of that that was definitely underlying when I first started using cannabis, and a large part of it was kind of also, I can swear right, Dawn?

Dawn Taylor

Oh, 100%

Max Larocque

Perfect. Quick disclosure on that. I do use the word “fuck” a lot.

Dawn Taylor

I'm very okay with that word. And this podcast is rated R, so anyone listening, If you're really going to struggle with that word, it's just a word, keep listening because you need this information. 

Max Larocque

And you know what? I do like to disclose that too. And I've softened up my views on this in the last couple of years because I understand that, again, if your only interpretation of the word “fuck” was from your parent, caregiver, loved one was super angry, maybe that meant something bad was going to happen, then I can understand why people think that the word “fuck” is such a bad word. 

Dawn Taylor 

Absolutely. 

Max Larocque

But to me, it's just a filler word. So if it comes out, I'm not going to apologize. But I do like to give that forewarning just because I've had people misconstrue my messages. Like, “Wow, he's very angry. Why is he so agitated?” And it's really not that. It's just simply that, it's a word that comes out on a very frequent basis, and if I'm passionate about what I'm talking about, it's going to come out more. So, full disclosure, we'll get that one out of the way. But as mentioned with my original usage of cannabis, it was definitely a “fuck you” towards my dad. Because of the fact that my dad started with the RCMP at such a young age, he had a very skewed perception of, to a certain degree, life, because it was a very “This is how I did it, and this is how you're going to do it, and this is how we do it.” And there was a part of me that very much from a resentful standpoint, was kind of like, “Well, fuck you. I'm going to smoke weed, and I'm going to prove to you that I can be successful and I can be this and I can be that.” Just in spite of him. So that definitely stemmed that. Obviously, it escalated quite quickly into full on cannabis and alcohol addiction. So, kind of bit me in the ass a little bit, you could say

Dawn Taylor

it does that. 

Max Larocque

Yeah. So dad was kind of right in certain ways. 

Dawn Taylor

Yeah, we won't tell him that. We won't tell him that. So, let's dive into that for a second and just backtrack a minute because I know someone is listening who's like, “Hey, wait a sec, I've moved my kids a million times.” I don't think it's always that it's moving kids a million times is the problem. It's the structure and the certainty that a lot of kids, especially actually need, and they all function very different with it. It's understanding that and then figuring out how to get them some support in that. But you had mentioned that you struggled with the trust as well, and so where did that come from? 

Max Larocque

So, there was two moves specifically, one of which when we moved to Ottawa, we were supposed to be in Ottawa for good. And this was after our fifth move and fast forward a few years, there was some issues within my parents’ relationship, there was some infidelity and we up and moved from Ottawa to Edmonton as sort of a preventative measure or like, I guess sort of like an ultimatum. So that was a huge component because that was the first time that we moved somewhere and it was like, “Okay, we're buying a nice house, make good friends, we're going to be here for good.” And then to have that totally taken up from under you. Between that and then other things in childhood, it definitely created a lot of distrust within anyone who was above me. And I definitely do have sort of like a seniority complex in that sense too. There's a reason I am my own boss and have been for over a decade because I do not do well with, I guess, authoritative or authoritative measures. When people try to tell me what to do and how to do it. It's probably something that could be addressed on my end to some degree, but that definitely played a huge role in it. And then in terms of the trust side of things. So this is kind of a fucked up situation where my parents don't actually know that my dad had affairs. This is, like, 20 years ago. And so just in terms of my actual my own relationships, friendships, business relationships, partnerships, things like that, I've just always struggled with trust because of the fact that I've seen what it does to families, what it does to me, what it did to me, I should say, as a whole. And growing up in an environment that doesn't necessarily know how to communicate or express the quote-unquote negative emotions or the big emotions we can call them, and then also creating and setting boundaries. I was never actually modeled how to do any of that, so just a lot of things that happened over time and then didn't really know how to process any of that. And then that's where I just kind of leaned into addiction as I got older, because it was much easier to just numb out the world than it was to actually deal with learning how to sit with my negative and or big emotions. I don't really like to call them negative. It's just more or less that was what I was taught, was that they were negative, right? They were bad emotions. They're big emotions. 

Dawn Taylor

Okay, let's pause on that for a second. Sorry for interrupting. How true is that, though? That we've been taught that all, and it's not positive or negative, good or bad, right? But it's like, all of your negative, big emotions, that's bad. Right? Like, we've been so taught that with part of that, though, even in your childhood and how you were raised and all that, the fact that everything was very black and white. 

Max Larocque

Yeah. Right or wrong, very almost kind of military-esque, like, this is how you do it. 

Dawn Taylor

Yeah. 

Max Larocque

No other way around it. This is black or white, and life just simply is not black or white.

Dawn Taylor

Never.

Max Larocque

In any way, shape or form.

Dawn Taylor

No, never has been.

Max Larocque

Especially nowadays. I think it's becoming more popularized. But just the discussion about people pleasing and how, again, as long as everyone around me is happy, then that's all that matters. And I was listening to one of your podcasts, and you guys were talking about “The Body Keeps the Score”. That was a really eye-opening book for me to read, too. My mom actually has crohn's, and being able to piece together some things from a timeline standpoint, it kind of scared me to the point where I was like, “Okay, there's some things that need to be addressed here that have clearly been underlying the service for a long period of time.” So, yeah, that was a pretty eye-opening book, to be honest. I think everyone should read that book at some point in their life.

Dawn Taylor

It is. And we will put the link in the show notes for sure. So what age did the pot you start?

Max Larocque

So not until I was 18, so actually it was after I graduated. 

Dawn Taylor

Oh, wow. 

Max Larocque

Yeah, I had tried a few times when I was younger. I didn't really get stones, so to be honest, I thought it was like, I think I was doing it wrong. I probably wasn't inhaling it, whatever it was, but I was just like, “Well, this is stupid. I don't even see why people would do this.” And then, fast forward, I ended up having an injury with my hand and one of my friends had bought a bong. So, for anyone who has smoked cannabis before, if you've ever smoked a bong, it's a pretty intense way of doing it. And if you smoke a bong, you're probably going to get pretty high. So I did, and that was kind of the first time I was like, “Oh, wow, this is nice.” I can just totally numb out pretty much everything on command. It was less detrimental than drinking at that period of time, too, because of the fact that I could easily be a functioning stoner. I could smoke all evening long, go to work the next day, really had no issues. It wasn't the same as being hungover and things like that. And then down the road, that led into the combination of the two to be a functioning alcoholic at that point. So I could drink less, smoke more, and then still be able to function the next day. 

Dawn Taylor

So how long did that go on for before you realized it was a problem?

Max Larocque

About a decade, basically from 18 to 28. 

Dawn Taylor

Wow. 

Max Larcoque

Yeah. And it got progressively worse. There was periods of time, three to six month windows where it wasn't as excessive. Predominantly in the drinking, I smoked pretty much, I bet you, over a ten year span, I probably didn't smoke for 50 to 60 days of that entire ten years. 

Dawn Taylor

Wow.

Max Larocque

Yeah. And the only reason why was basically I was on vacation and couldn't find it. 

Dawn Taylor

Yeah. Which is crazy. So were the people around you knowing there was a problem, or

was there just an avoidance of “Well, okay.” So, multiple parts of this right? It’s an avoidance because they don't want to deal with it, but also because there's such a socially acceptable level of being stoned and drinking these days that were they even realizing it was such an issue? 

Max Larocque

Yeah. I mean, that definitely fed into it. I would say very much so to who you surround yourself with going to end up really dictating how you actually, what the choices that you do and don't make on a regular basis. So if everyone around you is smoking, you don't want to be the odd one out. Because that is one thing, is when you do cut alcohol out at the age of 28 or 30, whatever age you decide to do that at, you do become ostracized in our society. Unfortunately. It is slowly beginning to change, but that was definitely a huge component of it, and especially from the ages of 18 to 28, you're almost a weirdo if you don't drink and smoke. Right? It's almost more of the question of, like, 

Why don't you drink? That's weird. Right. I still get that today. At the age of 33, after two and a half years of not drinking, you still get people like, “Why don't you drink?”

Dawn Taylor

I get it all the time. Personally, I did not ever smoke or drink, but that was due to control issues. Right. Where you wanted to take control, so you did that. I was the polar opposite, where, having dealt with sexual abuse and all kinds of trauma in my own childhood, I was like, “Nobody will ever take control over me. And that's even a substance.” So even to this day, it's hilarious. I have like my one cup of coffee in the morning and I will all of a sudden randomly decide I'm not having coffee for a week just to prove that I'm not addicted to it. Do you know what I mean? There's still that “Nothing will control me in that way.” It's quite funny to me. So I never did all through high school and I 100% struggled with friends partially for that reason, and didn't get invited to things and didn't get taken out to things. As an adult. I'm talking like in my thirties and forties, I have been bullied by relatives for not drinking at events.

Max Larocque

Yeah, it's crazy. 

Dawn Taylor

I'm personally bullied and I'm just like, what? 

Max Larocque

I'm personally not a huge fan of Christmas and or big holidays like that because essentially it's just a big drunk fest. And again, being the odd one out of the family that doesn't drink, it's not the most enjoyable time, to be 

Dawn Taylor

Totally. No, not at all. And so yeah, I know that feeling. A drink once in a while when people are like and then they almost make fun of me because I'm having a drink and I'm just like, “Oh my word, you guys.”

Max Larocque

Well, see, and a big part for me too, and I've said this on other podcasts, I was kind of like a chameleon. And going back to the sort of the instability of moving all the time was that I got really good at making friends, but it was mainly around the fact that I was just a people pleaser and I put everyone else ahead of me and whatever I felt because I could fit in with any crowd. It just so happened that as I got older, I happened to fall into the crowd that was excessively drinking, excessively smoking, and because I didn't want to be ostracized and I didn't want to be that odd one out, it's like, well, I'm just going to keep on doing it and then next thing you know, they don't know what you're doing behind closed doors, right? So, if they're only smoking in a social situation, it seems normal. Well, if you don't know that when you guys leave, I'm going to continue to drink and smoke, that's more of a problem than they actually perceive or they actually see. So that was a big part of it. I would say the worst age of my drinking was 25 and that was because I had just moved out from a friend's house. So that was the first time living by myself. Like totally, totally by myself. So there was no, I guess, extra eyes on me even just from whether they would say anything or not. Nobody was acting. It was just the fact that I was behind closed doors and I had full choice and full autonomy to do whatever it was I wanted to do behind closed doors. 

Dawn Taylor

So, on the outside looking in, what would I have seen had I met you? So you've been two and a half years sober. Had I met you, say, five years ago, what would I have seen?

Max Larocque

Absolutely no difference. From the outside looking in. To be honest, when I came out publicly, everyone was shocked. My parents were shocked when I came out. Everyone was shocked because I was so good at putting on the front. And my biggest thing was, especially being in the fitness industry, was I commonly felt like I was kind of on a pedestal, and as long as I looked a certain way, then no one would ever see anything was wrong. Right? I drove the BMW, I had a nice haircut. I've been in the gym since I was 14 years old. So, if someone looks that way and they have their Starbucks in hand each day, and they have their BMW and they had their stupid, expensive haircut, you wouldn't think anything was wrong. And that was my whole, I guess, objective behind that, was to make sure that no one would have ever thought twice about it. 

Dawn Taylor

Yeah. So when did it finally come to a head? What was the moment that you were like, “I might be in trouble.”

Max Larocque

So I was 30 years old. I was actually with my ex-girlfriend, and that was predominantly what prompted even the thought of looking inward and actually considering, like, “Hey, how much do I drink on a weekly basis? How much do I smoke on a weekly basis?” So we had just gotten my now-dog Lucy together, and she was definitely pushing in the direction of wanting kids pretty quickly. We hadn't been together for that long, for the record. So, there was a lot of pressure going from a lot of different directions. And at that point in time, I was about $40,000 in debt. I hadn't told her any of this because there was so much shame around the debt that that's when I first started thinking, like, okay, like, I hadn't even said this to her verbally. This was just in my own head was that, like, okay, she wants to have a family. I'm $40,000 debt. Haven't told her about it. “There is zero fucking chance in hell that I am bringing a kid into this world where I'm already swimming in debt.” I can't smoke, eat, socialize, or do just about anything unless I drink or smoke. Like, thankfully, I had some sort of subconscious awareness of no, fucking pump the brakes. You do not need to bring a kid in this world because this will just exacerbate all of the issues that you're currently dealing with. The issues that you're avoiding right now, they're going to blow the fuck up if you bring a kid. 

Dawn Taylor

Oh, Max, come on. Yeah, that would have been the best thing for you to do, insert sarcasm here. 

Max Larocque

Yeah. So, thankfully, whatever. I don't know. Again, subconscious part of me that just had the awareness to know because, I mean, a lot of people get themselves in these situations that, “Let's just have a kid and it'll get better.” No, it fucking won't. “Let's just get married and it'll get better.” No, it fucking won't. Whatever issues that you're avoiding right now are not just going to dissipate and go away. They're going to, by adding more problems, get worse and worse and worse and worse. And then if you do have children, you're not going to have the energy and or capacity to actually deal with your own shit, I think is a very commonly overlooked thing before having children, in my personal opinion, which will probably piss some people off, but that's okay.

Dawn Taylor

This is the words I use, “In my humble yet correct opinion.” Feel free to use that.

Max Larocque

Yeah, exactly. My opinion is my opinion. You're going to hate me. I've pissed off more than enough people in the last two and a half years. It's okay. 

Dawn Taylor

No, I don't think much different on that. And I get in trouble with that, too. Yeah. Fix your shit before you pass it on to everyone else in your world. 

Max Larocque

I know there can't be an actual test for it, but there should be one.

Dawn Taylor

Okay. You and my husband should talk about that. Quick side note, his line is always that everyone should be fixed upon birth and you should have to actually just go to a doctor's office to sign a piece of paper saying you're ready to have a kid. Even if there's no test, even if there's no one's going to stop you, you actually have to book an appointment and go. So it just pauses you in the moment to be like, “Is this actually what we want?”

Max Larocque

Yeah.

Dawn Taylor

That's always been his thing. And everyone gets mad at him for it. He's standing by it.

Max Larocque

I'd have to say, I agree with your husband. 

Dawn Taylor

Yeah. You just reminded me of him. That's awesome. So you realize that this is a no go. So what shifted there? Because you are not, I'm guessing, currently with that girlfriend and you don't have kids, or else you just haven't told me. 

Max Larocque

No. And also, I do have ADHD, so if I ever go on a tangent and then forget to come back, bring me back in and I'll be the same. 

Dawn Taylor

It's okay. 

Max Larcoque

Yeah. So that's what prompted that. And so this was April of 2020. So we had just basically gone into lockdown. Oh, gosh, five and a half weeks prior kind of thing. So we had just shut down our previous location for the first time, the first lockdown. And this was like in that first six weeks of COVID where no one had a fucking clue what was going on. 

Dawn Taylor

Nobody did. 

Max Larocque

Everything was changing. So, like, I still remember when the NBA, the NHL, everything like that closed down, where it was like, oh, shit, this is serious. This is a pretty big thing. And then again, fast forward, and it just was COVID. But at the time, I've been wanting to transition my business to somewhat online at that point in time. And when COVID hit, it was actually a really good time to do so because it was like, well, I'm making my $2,000 a month here on CERB, which has not really taken me too far here, especially when I'm $40,000 secretly in debt. So, now is the time. So, I actually hired a coach at that point in time for business coaching because I just had zero idea how to actually get myself online from a position of business. I already had an Instagram following and things like that. So, I hired a coach. And the first 60 days of that program was predominantly life coaching and sort of like looking at yourself first, because if you're going to put yourself online, one, it's quite exhausting. B, if you put out a fake persona of yourself online, it is inevitable that you will burn out in a very short period of time, 

Dawn Taylor

Not gonna work. 

Max Larocque

Because there's no way you can have this persona of who you are and then actually be yourself. So that was when I really started looking at how much am I drinking on a week to week basis. And this is where it's tough too, because with cannabis addiction, it gets very much downplayed. It's like, “Oh, it's just weed. You can't be addicted to weed.” Like, shut the fuck up. You can be addicted to just about anything, whether it be substance and or non substance addiction. Second of all, with alcohol, again, especially within that age demographic, it's like, “No, man, you're fine. You just like to drink, okay?” And people would downplay it over and over and over again. And it wasn't until I actually sat with it and it's like, okay, I'm breaking this down. So I'm drinking anywhere between, like, six and eight ounces of scotch a night, drinking between or smoking between one and two joints a night. So if I add this up, that's like over a 40 ounce of scotch a week. And that's just me. That's not including, like, if I went to my ex-girlfriend's parents for dinner and had some wine, if I went to my parents house, had some wine or some beers, that was just me. And then actually putting this on paper and seeing the numerical value attached to that, where I was like, “Holy fuck, I'm drinking a 40 plus a week and smoking about a quarter ounce of weed a week.” Yeah, okay. Of course there's people out there that have it worse, but it's not a competition of who has it, who doesn't have it worse. And I had that kind of fixated in my head that I would downplay the own severity of my own problem because it was like, “Oh, well, so and so does this, and so and so does. At least I'm not doing cocaine all the time. That was how I would try to kind of justify it in my head.” 

Dawn Taylor

Yeah. 

Max Larcoque

And so for me, when I wrote I actually wrote a post about it one day, and it was just the first time that I had actually acknowledged that I had a problem with it, and I hadn't posted it publicly again. I was still with my ex at the time, and quick story on that was that I wrote this post when she was at work, and she got home that day and I showed it to her. And that was the first time that I actually sat with the fact that I classified myself as an alcoholic and then we won't go too far in details of that because it's just a long blown-up story, but basically, her grandfather had pretty much killed himself with alcohol and so when I brought this to light with my own issues with drinking, it was like, “well, you're not an alcohol-alcoholic because you don't drink to the point where you're pissing your pants every night.” So that really fucked with my head, because I just wrote this piece. Yeah, I just wrote out this story, essentially, of my life and what I was actually dealing with. To then have the person next to me basically invalidate that completely and say that I'm being dramatic. This isn't as bad as I'm making it seem because of XYZ, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So, that really fucked with my head. And then again, long story short, I ended up posting it publicly because I got her, I guess, permission, you can say. 

Dawn Taylor

Yeah.

Max Larocque 

But then that caused a whole fucking shit show of issues within our relationship. Her family tried to get involved and tried to say also that I didn't have problems, and yada, yada, yada. So, yeah, that blew up, and then we split in November of 2020. I took Lucy full-time, and that was the main reason why I got sober, was Lucy. So, she was the reason that I got sober and stayed. Again, not sober, but alcohol-free for the duration that it has been. So, yeah, Lucy was kind of the main driver because we had got her in August of 2020. And then that's when those thoughts started to come out more frequently and then once we split, that was when the responsibility was fully on me to take care of her and anything that happened to her or anything that happened to me was my responsibility, and I had to take control of that.

Dawn Taylor

Okay, I have so many thoughts on this. Number one is people, stop gaslighting people when they say what they're feeling and what they're going through. 

Max Larocque

Yeah.

Dawn Taylor

I had this conversation this morning with someone talking about trauma and how one person's trauma will resonate in their body and sit within the same as somebody else's that would be nothing. Right? Where you can look from the outside and be like, “Oh, no, that's on a scale, and this one's way worse than that one.” But your perspective is your truth is your reality, right? It's yours. And that is how you feel if someone says to you, like, “Hey, I'm struggling with this.” or “I think that I might be an alcoholic.” or, “Hey, I think I might be an addict.” or, “Hey, I think I need support in this.” Can we actually start stepping up as humanity and as society and be like, “Okay, if this is a problem, maybe I don't deem it a problem, but you do, so that means it's important.”

Max Larocque

Exactly. And from a severity standpoint, is everyone has a different tolerance to everything, right? In terms of how you tolerate stress, how you tolerate your alcohol, your drugs, your whatever avoidance techniques you're using, we all have different tolerances for it. 

Dawn Taylor

All of us. All of us.

Max Larocque

We all tolerate trauma differently too. So depending on our upbringing 100%, the age that it happened, the communication we had with our parents and our caregivers, were we able to actually decompress some of that trauma and process some of that trauma at a young age? Or was it something that just sat there and then festered over time, then became a severe addiction, whatever it may be? So, everyone's different. Gabor Mate uses the big T, little T analogy, but it's like, again, trauma is your trauma. No one needs to understand it and no one needs to feel it the way you do. If you believe what it is, then it is.

Dawn Taylor

Well. And I've had people in the past say, like, “I feel almost guilty for doing this work, I feel guilty for spending this money, I feel guilty for taking this resource from somebody else who needs it more.” And it's like, “Whoa, no.”

Max Larocque

And it's interesting.

Dawn Taylor

Worse or better or easier or harder? Like, no.

Max Larocque

I always mixed up guilty and shame, too, and I'm sure you are very well versed in this, where it's like they feel guilty. Is it they feel guilty or is it like they feel shame around it. And is it like the shame that's actually preventing them from wanting to work through it and work on it and talk about it and actually bring it to light? 

Dawn Taylor

Well. And even the definition right, where it's like, guilty is like, I did something bad. Shame. Shame is like, I am bad. Like, me as the person I am bad. Right? And so really breaking that down. So then you get a dog, or you have your dog, and now this is what helps you get sober. But was this just part of getting sober? Or was it actually like, no, now you have to do some recovery work on what got you there in the first place. 

Max Larocque

So fast forward two and a half years to today, tthat's where I am now. So I actually recorded a podcast episode about this a couple of months ago, and it was me coming to terms with the fact that I had just transferred addictions to work. So, I had transferred all of my addictive tendencies to work and building my businesses. And I just used that as an avoidance tactic to actually sitting with those big emotions that we talked about. And this is one that is also super-layered because of the fact that we live in a society that actually promotes workaholism and celebrates workaholism. Even though it's taking away from your family, it's taking away from your physical health, it's taking away from your mental health, it's taking away from the relationship you could be building with your children, it's taking away from a lot of things. But because we live in a society that says, oh, my God, you make 200,000 a year, like, you are so successful. Well, define successful. If I make $200,000 a year but my wife hates me, my kids think I'm a shitty dad, and my physical health is declining rapidly, am I successful? 

Dawn Taylor

Okay, let's just talk about that for a sec. Because this is a thing, so I've often talked about it, and I've. like. working with clients that have been in recovery, is when they talk about the fact that you do need to go home and not be with the same people, right? So that you're surrounded by it. So that you're surrounded, not surrounded by the drugs, you're not surrounded by the alcohol, and you have a new life to look forward to, right. But you have to find new people. I've often thought I can't imagine being the person coming out of rehab and pretty much being told, I have to go home and live a completely different life while still struggling with the fact that I'm trying to stay off of drugs and alcohol and all of these things, right. But, anytime I've worked with somebody who's addicted to food, addicted to work, addicted to shopping, addicted to these things, it is so hard because these are things that are required of us on a daily basis, right? You can't actually get through life without eating. You can't totally get through life without ever having a job and working, right? So then we transfer addictions to something that is actually just socially acceptable. It can be just as addicting.

Max Larcoque

I know. And it's such an interesting conversation of like, healthy addiction versus addiction or unhealthy versus healthy addiction. And a common thing you'll see is exercise, right? Where people all the time from drug and or alcohol use into exercise and all of a sudden you develop orthorexia where any food that's not, quote unquote, healthy food is then now deemed as bad food. And if you don't exercise seven days a week, then all these bad things are going to happen where it's like, again, you're just transferring addiction. So I'm not going to say that. Of course, exercise addiction as a whole is definitely better for you than slamming a bottle of Jack Daniels every night. For sure. I'm not going to deny that. However, it still goes to show that there's underlying either emotional scars, trauma, insecurities, self worth issues that have not been addressed because you're just, again, switching to exercise, which is a super common one. I always, kind of people who run like Ironman and Triathlons, where I'm like, “What are you running from?” Literally and figuratively, what are you running from? No one fucking wants to run that much who hasn't had some unresolved shit. 

Dawn Taylor

I love that because I think it all the time and just don't say it 

Max Larocque

Oh, you want to fucking swim 20 miles a week and run 100 and bike 200? Why? What are you running from that is making you want to do that? Now? I know there's definitely, I was dating a girl who ran Ironman and a lot of it was sort of reclaiming herself and reclaiming her power. She was actually a psychologist, so, again, very well versed and also has done a lot of her own inner work as well. So that was how she had done it. But I would argue that she's a pretty small percentage of people who are actively running and training for Ironman and marathons and things that are extreme to that nature. 

Dawn Taylor

Yeah, no, I can see that. So how did you overcome so we're going to backtrack to you, two and half years. How did you overcome the addiction and did you have any support in doing that? 

Max Larocque

Um, well, if we're backtracking two and a half years, I would say I didn't overcome the addiction. I just white-knuckled it and just cut it completely raw. I just full-on cold turkey, stopped smoking weed and drinking alcohol. December 1, 2020. And like I said, just completely white-knuckled it, which worked for a period of time, but it didn't really work. Again, it worked for the period of time that I was able to white-knuckle it. But the thing is, you can't white-knuckle sobriety for that long. And this is which we'll get into later, the sobriety versus recovery conversation. December 1, 2020 hit, I had publicly stated I'm stopping drinking alcohol as a way to have the accountability with that, because, truthfully, as much as my family was supportive, they just don't get it. And they're also I have two older sisters, love them, love my entire family, but all very stubborn, hard headed individuals that really have no desire to have these types of conversations at all. And so I am definitely the outlier of my family. So, again, they were supportive. This is also, we're just about to go into the third wave of lockdowns here in Alberta. So really, any support that I did have was predominantly online because of the fact that I was secluded, which for that period of time actually worked out well. Truthfully, because of the fact that everything was shut down. Even if I wanted to go to a restaurant and drink or a bar and drink and whatever everything was for that period of time, it actually worked out well. I think it was December 13 that we went into the lockdown for the third time. And one of the things that I did as a way to not only have a layer of accountability, but to also start growing my online audience, to start coaching more people online, was that I said that I was going to do, the house that I was living at the time was living with some friends shortly after my breakup, and they actually had, like, a little basement gym. And so what I did was  I went live every single morning at 09:00 A.m. For I think it was like two and a half months straight, because it was like, if I don't show up at 09:00 am tomorrow, probably for a reason. So I had stated it out loud that I was going to be doing a live workout each and every day. Everyone was already at home on lockdown anyway. So I was like, “Hey, well, I'm doing something positive for the community. It's a way to have that accountability for myself. It's a way to grow an online presence and audience. I'll make a little challenge out of it.” kind of thing. Whoever wins the challenge will get some free personal training whenever the gyms open up, whenever they do open up. Um, fast forward one week. It's now, December 20. We found out that we lost our current lease of the gym that we were at because fucking everything up. So that was the worst night in early sobriety ever because it was just like fucking just literally one thing after the other. In hindsight, it all worked out very well because it gave me enough time to actually establish an online presence. But basically from December 1, 2020 to about February 2021, it was pretty much just white-knuckle it. I worked out excessively. Definitely transferred to exercise, worked my ass off, posted every single day, went live every single day. Basically, did anything I could to distract myself in a more positive way to white-knuckle it and actually avoid a lot of the big feelings I was feeling for the first time in my entire life because that was the reality behind it. It was like, as an adult, since I'd been smoking and drinking since I was 18, I hadn't felt any of those emotions before. And for anyone who does cut substance in any way, shape or form, they're fucking scary the first little bit. They're fucking scary when you've never actually sat with some of these emotions before.

Dawn Taylor

Can we also say, though? As a man, even just as a man in general, men aren't taught to have emotions.

Max Larocque

We aren't. 

Dawn Taylor

And it's seen as weak, and it's seen as pathetic, and it's seen as all of these things. So did that play into that at all? Where it's like, oh, shit, there's feels. If you were watching the video right now, he literally just got uncomfortable and had to shift and adjust himself, as I said that.

Max Larocuque

Oh no, not with my ADHD. So for me, it was like so my dad, again, was an RCMP officer. He specialized in bloodstain pattern analysis, which, short term way of describing that my dad was CSI. So my dad saw the worst of the worst of the worst. My dad literally saw mutilated children, dead bodies on a regular basis. 

Dawn Taylor

Like, horrible. 

Max Larocque

Yeah, horrible. Like the worst of the worst. So my dad, when I first got sober and I told my parents and I sit them down and I told them what had been happening for the last decade, my dad's exact words were, if I've seen a fucking shrink five times. And I remember looking at me being like, “Do you not think it's kind of fucked up that me at the age of 30 has seen a, quote unquote, fucking shrink more than you have, and you have literally seen the worst of the worst of the worst. Does that not seem a little fucked up to you?” And it was just, whoa. When me and my brothers were kids, we didn't talk about things and we just learned to not talk about anything, really? So that was a huge proponent of it. And I know that I'm very sensitive and I'm much more accepting of my sensitivity now because of the fact that you were labeled as, like, weak or quote unquote, you were a pussy growing up. Not to offend people, but that's a word that was common. 

Dawn Taylor

No, but that was the language back then.

Max Larocque

That was a very common word. Especially like I was born in 1990, so I'm 33. So very much like late 90s, early 2000s, things were much less, how do I describe it? 

Dawn Taylor

Politically correct. 

Max Larocque

Yes. 100%. 

Dawn Taylor

And I think you have to be a 90s baby born in 1980. I lived through even the 80s. 

Max Larocque

You get it.

Dawn Taylor

Nothing politically correct in the 80s. Yeah. Anyone born after 2000. I think it is definitely different.

Max Larocque

Yes, it is. Of a different world. Even just in terms of cell phones and things like that. Like, just everything about it is way different. So, again, very much I was a hockey player, so even more so you don't talk about that kind of shit, hockey pussy if you do. So, I'm much more accepting of the fact that I am super sensitive now. And I don't look at it as, like, a weakness now. I actually look at it as a way to be able to actually develop more relationships, especially with the clients that I work with online and from a coaching standpoint was if I didn't have that sensitivity and I guess empathic powers tha,t we could say, that I wouldn't be able to connect with people on the level that I do. And I know a large part of me staying sober and this is very much I don't really agree with a lot of the stuff that comes from AA. There's definitely aspects of it that work for people. And again, not to say it doesn't work, but it has helped thousands, it's also not helped even more and I think- 

Dawn Taylor

Damaged so many people. 

Max Larocque

I think that's a thing that they tend to downplay is the fact that you just end up retraumatizing a lot of people with the approach that they take. And that's actually what my psychologist said. Like, the white knuckle approach of like, yeah, it works for a period of time and depending on what your rock bottom looks like, maybe you do need that white knuckle approach for a little bit. Maybe just to kick the substance, just to get out of your system enough to actually create more bandwidth totally to actually work on yourself, then it can work. So that was a huge component of that was just, again, the discomfort with actually being able to feel and address these emotions. And because of the fact that I grew up with the, I guess, male presence being predominantly there as a provider, that's what I shifted into. So, as I started transitioning online and growing more online, my entire life for the last two and a bit years has revolved around work, work, work.  And it was my birthday this year, so April 2023, that I was in Canmore, and I lapsed with weed, and then the floodgates opened again. So, for me, it's like, once I start, I just don't stop. And for me, I don't know how familiar you are with Gabor Mate. And Gabor Mate,  I love his work. That guy is the man. But it's that question of it's not why the addiction, but why the pain. The last two and a half years has been the most financially lucrative years of my entire life. Businesses. My businesses are doing phenomenally well. So it's like, why the fuck do I keep going back to numb out using weed if my life is as good as it is?

Dawn Taylor

What's your answer for that?

Max Larcoque

That's what I'm in therapy for right now. So we're definitely working through some things that I don't really have the answer for right now, to be entirely honest with you. We're working through some pretty big emotions with that and just some big things that happen. So I'm doing EMDR twice a month right now and then I've actually recently started doing breath work once a month. A client of mine from two years prior, she's a hypnotherapist, and she's doing breath work seminars now. So she's coming to my gym once a month and doing breath work seminars. So between the somatic central nervous system work, that is the kind of brought up with the breath work, combining that with the EMDR, it's been a fucking heavy two months, to say the least. Yeah, you kind of say I'm like balls deep in the actual, in the work of it healing right now. So, truthfully, there's a lot of things that even the realization that I had just, it's funny because I've talked about sobriety versus recovery on podcasts before, but never realized that hypocritically, I was doing the same thing, but I was using work as my outlet. And then once I slipped with weed again, it was like, look, obviously, if things are going as well as they are financially, I'm the happiest I've ever been. I'm the most stable I've ever been. Why do I keep going back to my drug of choice, which is cannabis? 

Dawn Taylor

So, talk to me about this recovery versus sobriety, so that people fully understand it.

Max Larocque

So, when you look at sobriety, sobriety, in my opinion, is just the fact that you don't use substance, so you don't drink, you don't smoke, you don't use in any way, shape, or form. That doesn't mean you're healed or you are actually taking care of your shit. Because I learned this by doing a little bit of AA, and then actually a lot of it was too was seeing it in Facebook groups, so quickly going back to early sobriety with COVID was like, I was joining Facebook groups because there was a lot of Facebook groups that were predominantly about, like, addiction, addiction recovery, alcoholism, blah, blah, blah, blah. And seeing the toxicity in some of those groups was, like, extremely eye opening to the point where it was, you know, introduce yourself to the group, blah, blah, blah, blah. Remember literally having people be like, smoked weed for fucking ten years. Like, okay, I did heroin for 13 years. And it's  like, “Okay, I didn't realize this was a competition of who had the more severe addiction and not.” and that was early on. I was like, “That's fucked up.” Just weird way. And that was the sort of distinction between sobriety versus recovery. Whereas sobriety, okay, you don't use substance, but that doesn't mean that you've actually done any sort of work on yourself. Oh, you're sober, but you still cheat on your wife. Interesting, you're sober, but you still neglect your children. Interesting, you're sober, but you still neglect your physical health. Interesting, you're sober, but you closet binge eat every day, multiple times a week, whatever it may be. It's like, okay, so you're sober from substance. That doesn't mean that you've addressed any of the actual underlying issues, whether it be a self-worth issue, which predominantly is something that I'm working through right now, is the lack of self worth. And I think lack of self-worth definitely drives a lot of addiction in our day and age. But, so the distinction is, for me, my interpretation of recovery is where you're actively taking the steps to be an active participant in your recovery. So, whether that be through CBT therapy, talk therapy, EMDR, hypno, like, whatever is going to float your boat. If you want to go do Reiki, you want to go do energy healing, you want to go do a little bit of this, a little bit of that, I don't give a fuck. As long as you're doing something that aligns with you that is going to actually get you to the root cause of why you have this pain in the first place, that in my opinion, and again, that's just my opinion, so take it or leave it. But in my opinion, that's when someone is actually in recovery is when they are taking the action steps to be and stay sober.

Dawn Taylor

I've always looked at it as the recovery, like recovery is you're actually working to recover from what caused it in the first place. Right? At like a very basic, basic standpoint. So can I ask, where are you at in your sobriety right now?

Max Larcoque

So I am three weeks sober right now. 

Dawn Taylor

Nice! 

Max Larocque

Three weeks sober. Like officially, officially sober. Sober for three weeks. 

Dawn Taylor

Yeah. 

Max Larocque

I feel better now. Two weeks ago. It sucks because when you cut weed, especially, one of the biggest things is like, you don't sleep. So you definitely to go through pretty bad wave of insomnia. Your appetite goes to shit, especially if you start, this is an interesting discussion, too, is like weed addiction. When people try to downplay it, it's like, “Oh, no, I'm not addicted. I'm not addicted. It's just weed.” And it's like, okay, how much of your daily food intake is when you're stoned? 

Dawn Taylor

Oh, interesting. 

Max Larocque

Interesting. I actually eat about 95% of my daily food intake, if not more, when I'm stoned. Yeah. Okay, so let's unravel this a little bit more. You may think weed is not an addiction, but if you can't eat food without weed, now, it's that combination of, like, there is the weed addiction. There's also the underlying disordered, eating and or eating disorder as a whole that hasn't been addressed. And one thing I talk about is, like, reverse engineering addiction. So when people try to downplay, I'm not addicted to weed. “Can you go a week without it? Can you sleep without it? Can you eat without it? Can you socialize without it? Is it affecting your finances, which is then affecting other areas? Everything.” You start to unravel it and kind of reverse engineer it, and it's like, “Oh, shit, I'm financially stressed, but I'm smoking $100 a week worth of weed.” Well, okay. Are you also making good decisions when you smoke weed? Are you eating good, healthy food on a regular basis, or are you skip adding shitty food, which costs way more money, which is then furthering your financial stress? And that's where I don't know if you've read the book Dopamine Nation by Dr. Anna Lemke, if you haven't, highly recommend it. It's a phenomenal book, but she does a really good job of breaking down the dopamine pathways. And when you're chasing dopamine and you typically don't just stop at one thing. So, for a lot of people when they smoke weed, they get that massive rush of dopamine. Well, eventually that starts to crash. And depending on your tolerance of weed, if you smoke weed for a long time, your tolerance is here and then it crashes pretty quickly. So, okay, what are we going to get that back up? Either going to smoke more weed or you're going to mix in some alcohol. You're going to mix in some porn. You're going to mix in a whole bunch of ticks. You're going to gamble. You're going to online gamble. You're going to online shop. You're going to do pretty much anything you can to get as much dopamine in your system as possible. And what's really interesting is she uses an analogy of, like, a seesaw. So if you spend, let's say, the hours of 05:00 P.m. Is the time you go to bed in this massive dopamine overdrive, when you wake up, wake up at homeostasis, you wake up in a dopamine deficient state. For anyone who's not familiar with dopamine, it's one of the neurotransmitters that provides motivation. It gives us drive. It gives us incentive to do things and accomplish things well. This is where addiction is such a bitch because a lot of the times and I'm sure someone will resonate with this when you're in addiction, there's very often that when you're high or drunk, whatever it is, you have these thoughts of like, “I don't want to do this anymore. I hate this. I hate that I do this, I hate doing it.” In general, that's when dopamine is high, when dopamine is low. So when you wake up, first thing in the morning in a dopamine deficient state, so your drive, your motivation, your desire to do pretty much fucking anything positive for yourself that day is starting way behind the eight ball. So, that's where do you think if you're starting in this dopamine deficient state, do you think you're going to have the, I guess, like awareness or the capability to make good choices that day?

Dawn Taylor

Well, you've also fried out the coping mechanism, portions of your brain with the drugs and alcohol.

Max Larocque

Exactly. So now you got to start chasing real dopamine, and real dopamine is not nearly as satisfying. Yeah, exogenous dopamine, I guess we can look at it, right? There are definitely ways, like cold showers, a hard workout, anything like that, that does promote that. But at the same time, if that's not part of your day to day life right now, who the fuck wants to hop on a cold shower first thing in the morning? Like, truthfully, it sucks. It sucks for a reason. Because there is that pain-pleasure balance, which she also uses the same sort of seesaw analogy for. But it's super interesting when you start looking at things like that. And that's why when people say like, “Oh, weed is not addiction or addictive, my phone's not addictive.” it's like, again, can you not use that substance and or non-substance addiction for a few days, for a week, for two weeks?

Dawn Taylor

Oh, gosh, even an hour. For some people.

Max Larocque

Nowadays with social media, it's like you see people freak, like they're in the Starbucks line and they literally can't wait 35 seconds for their coffee without looking at their phone because they're so either A, addict to their phone or B, insecure in their own skin that, God forbid I have a conversation with a human being beside me. I'll just put my face down and just look at my phone, pay attention to anyone around me. That's a whole different other topic. People are weird after COVID.

Dawn Taylor

People haven't recovered super hot, we'll put it that way. Yeah, they haven't recovered at their finest. So for someone listening who's like, “Oh shit, I think I might be in addiction.” What is your number one recommendation or even your top couple recommendations on where they can start? 

Max Larocque

I mean, the big biggest thing is awareness of the fact that you are struggling with addiction in the first place or awareness of the fact that you are struggling in some way, shape or form. Whether you want to label it as addiction or not. I know some people think of addiction as such a negative, harsh connotation. If you don't want to label it as addiction, that's fine, but label it that, it's something that needs to be addressed because it is taking away from other areas of my life. Andrew Huberman has a really interesting definition of addiction and it's basically the narrowing of your pleasures. So, when you start to ask yourself these questions is you know, weed, for example, is like, okay, do you spend the majority of like, thinking about when you're going to get high, how you're going to get high, the process of that, what does that look like to you? So, then you've actually lost sight of other things in your life that actually you did derive pleasure from. Because now, unless you're stoned, you don't even like doing those things anymore. And that is addiction in a nutshell where when you are an addiction, that's all you focus on and you'll still do those activities. But I got to get stoned first. That's a big one. I got to get stoned and then I'll go watch the movie, then I'll go do this, then I'll go to that, and it's like, how about we just take that away a little bit? In Dopamine Nation, she's got a really good acronym for kind of bringing light to addiction can't remember to come completely. But the D stands for distance. So actually creating distance from the addiction as a whole. So whether that be, let's say, weed, for example, I know when I first cut it, I had to throw out my bongs. I had to throw out all my papers. I had to throw out all the paraphernalia that went with the addiction. Because if I had it in my house, well, even if I don't have the weed in my house, I'll just drive down the street to a weed store, buy weed, because I still have papers, I still have a bowl, I still have all of these things that I can quickly access to get stoned. So, distance is really important, objectives where you actually objectively look at that. And that's kind of the whole reverse engineering thing. So you keep saying you're stressed about finances. Well, how much is weed costing you? Right? And starting to create objective, looking at sort of data around that of like, where is this helping me and where is this hurting me? So you can create a list. And that's really eye opening for people, too, because commonly the negatives will drastically outweigh the positives. And that's where it kind of gives you that insight of looking at it logically than less emotionally. Especially when you're in addiction, you will find any way possible to justify why you should smoke, 

Dawn Taylor

Always.

Max Larocque

Why you need to smoke, why you deserve to smoke. And it's just like, again, that's your monkey the whole monkey mind thing of like, that's your monkey mind telling you that because of course the monkey mind wants that. Dopamine you've? You've used that substance for how long now? Of course, your monkey mind tell you that you deserve this or you need this, or you want this. So, creating distance is big. Can't remember the rest of the acronym, but again, super good book.

Dawn Taylor

We'll post it in the show notes. 

Max Larocque

Yeah, and I think part of it too is just the education that comes from that book as a whole. Because if you can understand how your brain works a little bit more, it'll allow you, I guess more, just insight to addiction as a whole and how you can create barriers with it and things of that nature that can be super, super helpful. A big thing she talks about too, which again, I think I didn't mention this with AA, but radical honesty, right? Being radically fucking uncomfortably honest with what you're doing behind closed doors. Because that is the reality is even if you have a close network of friends that are there to support you, help you, they're living with you and they sleep in your room with you. 

Dawn Taylor

Totally. They have no idea what you're actually doing. 

Max Larocque

And even then, how many people have closet addictions that are just going to go to the bathroom really quickly and buck a line of coke and it's like people don't necessarily know that all the time. S,o only you know what you do behind closed doors. So again, whether that be harder drugs, whether weed, alcohol, food, like, porn, online dating, whatever distraction that you're trying to use, you have to be uncomfortably honest with yourself about the situation at hand.

Dawn Taylor

Well, then I'd say from there, if you need support, right, reach out. Family, like, go to AA, go to rehab, talk to your medical doctors,  do the work.

Max Larocque

Being open minded to various ways, that can help you, right? And a lot of people, older generation has it. “Well, if you're going to get sober, you have to go to AA.” Don't. You could read books, you can just do online. You can do anything to get sober. And that's the big thing, too, is like, do whatever the fuck. That's why I use the example like, you want to go to Reiki, you want to go to this. Do whatever feels right for you. That's going to keep you on the track of recovery, because it doesn't matter. Well, my dad went to AA and it worked for him. Who cares if it's not going to work for you because you don't align with the messaging in AA? Find something and be open-minded things, that's going to work for you. 

Dawn Taylor

Well, I know for myself, for other health stuff, I do a lot of IV therapy, and one of the ones I do is NAD. And that's used in rehab facilities because it regenerates your cells so often. I'm sitting in a room with people that are recovering addicts. Because they heard about it and it's made the biggest difference. And it's an IV therapy. You don't know. So ask for help, ask for support, ask the questions.

Max Larocque

And that is the cool part of the world we live in is there's never been more resources than there currently are.

Dawn Taylor

No, they're everywhere. And 1s there's a few positives that came out of COVID and one of them I've often said is it got people to start searching for stuff, right? Because we were on lockdown. All of a sudden, online business was available. All of a sudden it's like, “Hey, wait, I want to try a weird treatment that I heard about or I read about, and I'm going to Google it and try to figure out where someone is in the world that does that.” And it's created a community outside of our community.

Yeah, in a very different way, and not just through video games.

Max Larocque

 Well, I've said this before, too, and this was funny because this was one of the first takeaways from my first session back in EMDR was like and my psychologist did not use these words, but this is my interpretation of it, but slow the fuck down if you find you're someone that you are always on the go. And again, this is where the whole non-substance versus substance addiction talks in about, okay, so you play on three different rec leagues. You have this hobby, this hobby, this hobby, this hobby, this hobby. If you're someone that does not allow any time to just sort of sit with yourself, that in itself is a problem. And so what COVID was good for was the fact that it actually forced everyone to slow down. Now, the sad reality of that is that for certain people, a lot of addiction for a large demographic of the population, it actually, actually furthered addiction. It furthered abuse, it furthered all kinds of things as well. But again, it all kind of ties back to like when you slow down, you can actually sit with these things and understand like, “Oh, there is some big emotions under the surface that I didn't even know about because I'm just so fucking busy.” And that's where, again, workaholism is such a common one, right, of like, I work, work, and then people perceive me as successful because all I do is work. But you come home every night and you're miserable and you just feel the need to scroll social media for hours and live your life through other people's life. Are you that successful? Or define successful.

Dawn Taylor

And to some people, yeah, but 100% you need to look at it and define it. Max. I always ask a few fun questions at the end, unless I forget because that's just who I am. and the people in my world laugh at that. And so. I'm going to ask you a few fun questions before I let you go and get back to your amazing career you have. And for anyone listening, if you want to find Max, we're going to have his info in the the show notes so you can find those. So, quick silly question is, what is the secret guilty way that you decompress? Come on, you know, it's Real House Five, so I'm just kidding. It might be. 

Max Larocque

Hell's Kitchen is a terrible, trash TV show that I actually, for some reason, I don't know why, but I love that show. Hell's Kitchen. Just awful. It's so bad. But I don't know why, but it's entertaining. 

Dawn Taylor

It really is. 

Max Larocque

You know what? That's an interesting question, to be totally honest. I know we're kind of keeping it lighter here, but that is thing with recovery is you have to start trying things to see what you enjoy, because the reality is, I did things to fit in for the majority of my adult life. So I'm trying new things where I'm rock climbing. I'm doing different activities to be like, what do I actually enjoy doing? I'm not just doing things to fit in 

Dawn Taylor

Outside of orkin pot everyone else's hobbies. 

Max Larocque

That was my life forever. So I'm just doing a lot of experimenting with that. I mean, I spend the majority of my free time with my dog, to be blatantly, honestly, honest. But, yeah, I mean. Guilty pleasure would probably be like Hell's Kitchen, something like Light, like that. I still do work a lot. Like, as mentioned, I'm definitely working through that or working on that, kind of, as we speak. So I don't have a great answer for that because 

Dawn Taylor

That's okay. 

Max Larocque

A lot of my decompression truthfully is, like, reading got a real big bookshelf over there that I got built not. But yeah. So I find it fascinating. And again, a large part of that, too, is just because it helps me connect with people on a different level. Yeah, I love reading. That's probably a guilty pleasure of mine.

Dawn Taylor

Awesome. I like it. How would you describe yourself in one sentence?

Max Larocque

Right now? The word of the day at my session last week with my psychologist was agitated.

Dawn Taylor

Oh, interesting thing.

Max Larocque

Yeah. And it's not the most positive word, for sure, but that's like genuinely speaking, just in terms of where I'm at with my own recovery 

Dawn Taylor

Right now in life. You're an agitator. 

Max Larocque

Genuinely speaking. Three weeks, completely sober. Wouldn't say I'm proud of that being the word that I would describe myself, but that is probably the most accurate word to describe myself. And my family as a whole is just constantly and consistently agitated with every little thing. And that's not the word that I want to describe myself with. Hence, me being, as mentioned earlier, balls deep in the working on myself. A season of my life, we can call it.

Dawn Taylor

You know what, on behalf of myself and everyone listening, though, I want to say congratulations.

Max Larocque

Thank you very much for that.

Dawn Taylor

I've overcome some drugs myself, and mine was a medically induced drug addiction, but I was eating 25 percocet a day and 40 milligrams of BuTrans patch for nine months. And so, again, yeah, had a pretty good addiction going on and totally medically-induced, but I had to come off of it in order to have a surgery and stay off of it. And I cold turkeyed. And I know how hard that was. And I know how hard it was to stay off of it and to stay in recovery even to this day. I have days. And so, congratulations.

Max Larocque

Well, thank you. I was going to say, if you don't mind me asking, what was your three months like of that?

Dawn Taylor

Of recovery? It was interesting because it was so I cold turkey dolphin for anyone listening who doesn't know, BuTrans is legalized heroin like, it's a patch that they give you typically in the hospital, if you like. My grandpa had Butran's patch when he was dying cancer, and he had, like, five different cancers, and it was in his bones. And so they had given him a small dosage of it. I think it was five milligrams. And I was on 40. Yeah. And it pretty much knocked him into a coma. I'm talking like I was on mass doses. I should have actually gone to rehab to come off of it. They put you into a medically-induced coma and I cold turkey. And so part of it was I'd gone on the meds and the drugs because I was in such excruciating pain, and I needed it till surgery because I was blacking out from pain and nothing touched the pain. It was so big. And so they were worried about my heart stopping from the pain level being too high. So they kept bumping up and bumping up and bumping up and bumping up what I was on, trying to get the pain under control, because they're like, “We can either deal with you coming off of drugs, or we can deal with you dying from a heart attack. We have to figure out how to keep you alive.” So when I finally got the surgery, I went cold turkey two weeks before surgery date, because I had to be two weeks clean so that they could put me back under to have surgery, and so those first three months were brutal because I was also recovering from a full radical hysterectomy and couldn't use painkillers and couldn't use anything, but the pain was gone. Like, the excruciating pain was gone. So I felt amazing, but I still would find myself in my car, driving around, determining if I was going to actually go find someone on the street to buy drugs from.

Max Larocque

And had you done a lot of, I guess, inner work leading up to that part of your life? 

Dawn TaylorI

had. So I had done a ton of work already at that point, and so it was interesting because it wasn't an emotional addiction, it was a physical addiction, but there was a weird shame attached to it. There was weird guilt attached to it. There was this lack of understanding attached to it, but also, like, “What the hell is this feeling?” And now I have to overcome this, and, oh, no, I write about it in my book, like, fully hallucinating, pulling out my hair, scraping the drywall off the walls. I was a solid ten days of that. Like, full hallucinations for 10, 12 days before I felt even human. 

Max Larocque

Holy shit. 

Dawn Taylor

Yeah. 

Max Larocque

That's wild. Well, thank you for sharing that. I wasn't sure if you want me to ask. 

Dawn Taylor

I don't know. No, I'm totally comfortable talking about it because mine wasn't people. And I think part of it is people do assume that most addiction comes from something hard that happened in someone's life and from a trauma. And it isn't always like, how many people out there are medically addicted to prescriptions, right? But then comes an emotional addiction in the middle of it. But also, there was a grieving process. I had to go to my grandpa's funeral like that. And I don't remember large portions of it. And I hid it from everyone. Nobody knew. People in my life didn't know. And so that was really hard. But then I still catch myself. And being brutally honest, I still catch myself some days. I was with someone a little while ago and they were taking T three’s or Percocet or something for something, and I saw them shake one out of that bottle. And if every ounce of my body didn't just be like, “Yes, I want that.” I think my husband was even there. And he kind of looked at me and I was like, “Fuck! Still?” It's been nine years. And I still had that moment of like, “Oh, but I wouldn't give for that.” Then I was like, no, because life is worth living, and I know I can't keep recovering from that. 

Max Larocque

Yeah, it goes to show the environmental triggers and just how like something huge, someone opening up a T Three bottle, how that can trigger that, and then just being aware of that when you are. I would say. in an early sobriety is super important. Because if there are certain environments that you should shouldn't be in, then do not fucking put yourself in them. 

Dawn Taylor

For me, it was like last fall, I had a double ear infection and I had to fly. And so I went to a walk-in clinic because the meds weren't working. And I was like, “Can I fly or am I going to rupture my eardrums?” And they were like, “Probably rupture. But here's like five things you can do to hopefully minimize it. But you're going to be in excruciating pain. We'll give you some meds to take care of it.” And he starts writing out a prescription for oxy, like, not even batting an eye because he knew the excruciating pain I was going to be in. And it took me a second. And I am very far into feeling very mentally healthy. And it took me a second where I was like, “No, sorry, I can't take that. But I'll get some Tylenol and Advil at a drugstore.” Yeah. And he was like, “Don, that's not going to be enough.” And I was like, “It'll be okay.”

Max Larocque

It'll be enough for you, right? 

Dawn Taylor

Like, it'll be enough for me. And I still probably won't even take that because meds scare me a little, right? But in those moments, right? And that, for me, was a moment where I was like, “Oh, okay, so if that still nine years later, could elicit that little muscle response of like, but it's only, like, five, I could probably just enjoy those for the next week.” Like, right? Even that, I was like, “Okay, do I need to make sure that I go with someone to a doctor's appointment?” Do I need to make sure that when I went to my pharmacist that day, I was like, “Can you please put a note on my file that I am not allowed to have hard narcotics?”

Max Larocque

Going to say it's almost crazy that they don't ask that first. They just don't even look into the history of things. Like you said, they don't got an eye. They just write the prescription. 

Dawn Taylor

Right? But for me, I was like, “Oh, I need to actually go do something about that, because that was a weird feel.” Right? And it doesn't happen often, but I think that people also need to be aware of that is someone could be sober for how many years? And that one split second that something happens and your whole body is like muscle memory, you're just like, “Oh, that would feel good.”

Max Larocque

And that's the interesting part with the central nervous system and just how responsive your central nervous system is. And that's important to be aware of what your body actually feels like in certain environments. 

Dawn Taylor

Totally. 

Max Larocque

Because then you can start paying attention to, you can call it your intuition, whatever, but it's like when you have that gut feeling, it's there for a reason. 

Dawn Taylor

Oh, 100%. 

Max Larocque

And I've talked to people about that since, because I'm very vulnerable with my clients and stuff, too, on what I'm going through. And just like, if something pops up, it's like, no, I wasn't going to, but man, did I think about it, right? So let me walk you through how I processed it. And for me, and I would challenge you even three weeks in doing the same, is I made a list of all the things in my life I had to live for, right? People in my life that it was like, “No, I need to be able to look at that and put a value on that.” What does that actually look like for me of continuing to live, continuing to thrive, continuing to be happy, continuing to be sober, right? Continuing to work on my mental health? What is the value that I'm going to attach to that versus the value of doing the opposite.

Max Larocque

I know I've heard sort of the analogy of like, instead of looking at, what are you taking away? It's like, what are you gaining?

Dawn Taylor

Totally. Because if I look at it, what I'm taking away, I can justify the hell out of it. 

Max Larocque

Exactly. Right? 

Dawn Taylor

Always. 

Max Larocque

Exactly. So it's just putting that more positive spin to it, of, like, again, I'm gaining this, I'm gaining financial security, I'm gaining stability, I'm gaining control of myself, I'm gaining blah, blah, blah, blah, whatever it may be. But taking that lens to it instead of just the deprivation side of things, of I'm losing 

Dawn Taylor

Totally. And, yeah, it's been interesting. So thank you. Thank you, Max, for joining us today. Thank you for hanging out, for being so vulnerable and open and honest, especially so quick into recovery. I'm smiling because I'm like, wow, you signed up to talk about this when you weren't even sober. And I love that. I love that, though, honestly, you don't have to be through it to talk about it. And I hope today even helped you to just have this conversation. And so for anyone listening, I hope that you heard something that can help you, support you, that gives you a little bit of insight. If nothing else, read a book and understand the people around you different. You're not alone. So join us again in two weeks for another amazing topic. Tell your friends. Share this with people, because I don't think we know anyone who has not been affected by addiction in some way, shape, or form. Guys, even your cell phones. Check out the show notes located at TheTaylorWay.ca. For more information and all of Max's contact info, subscribe now on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you want to listen to your podcasts. And if you love the show, I would love it if you'd leave a rating or review. See you guys later. 

Content Warning: suicide

In this episode, we discuss some topics that listeners may find difficult such as suicide and loss.

Why you would want to listen to this episode…

Kyle Dube knows a lot about young people from his experience as a father and a man dedicated to helping youths. Unfortunately, his world changed when he lost his youngest son. Today, he opens up about his struggles with handling loss and grief and his passion in urging people, both young and old, to be relentless in their purpose and in being there for the people they love the most.

Who this for...

Suicide has many societal stigmas and today’s episode goes above and beyond in not only discussing these stigmas but also tearing them down. For those who would like to know more about what to say or do in the face of tragic events, or for those who wish to understand the unique point of view of a grieving person who’s chosen to be as strong as ever before, this episode is for you. 

About Dawn Taylor

Dawn Taylor is the professional ass-kicker, hope giver, life strategist, trauma specialist, and all-around badass. Dawn's journey into helping others heal began when she took her personal recovery from the trauma she experienced in her life into her own hands. While at times unconventional, Dawn’s strategic methods have helped hundreds heal from traumas such as issues related to infidelity,  overcoming addiction,  working through PTSD from sexual, emotional, and physical abuse, as well as helping cult survivors thrive. Dawn’s work has empowered entrepreneurs, stay-at-home moms, and CEOs alike to be superheroes in their own lives. Having completed thousands of hours of training from many professional programs, including the Robbins Madanes Training Institute, Dawn’s blunt honesty will challenge your thinking, broaden your awareness, and help you achieve the outstanding results you are worthy of.

Connect with Dawn here at The Taylor Way: Consultation Call | Website | Facebook | Instagram | LinkedIn

Get to know Dawn on a deeper level through her book! Order Here

P.S. I Made It, is a powerful story that grabs you through its lack of pretension and honesty. Every page reveals another layer of curious wonder at both Dawn’s life and the power of hope that moves within each of us. Dawn’s hope is that you use this book as a resource to deal with your struggles. Share it with someone who needs it. We all want to feel like someone understands what it’s like to suffer through something and – come out the other side. She describes her life as “horrifically beautiful and beautifully horrific. 

Guest Bio

Kyle has lived in the Edmonton area his entire life and has been dedicated to working with youth for over 30 years. Kyle has been with YOUCAN Youth Services since 2002. In that time, YOUCAN Youth Services has grown from a one-person office to being a leading organization in youth work and transitional youth employment programming. Kyle is learning to understand grief as he, unfortunately, lost his youngest son to suicide in April of 2021. It is a profoundly devastating journey that he is on, as he learns to navigate life without his son Luke. 

Guest Social Links

YouCan Services - www.youcan.ca

Twitter - @kyledube  

Relentless Podcast episode with Dawn Taylor - https://www.youcan.ca/relentless-series/dawn-taylor-from-damaged-teen-to-confident-ass-kicker/

Thanks for listening!

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Views Expressed, Legal and Medical Disclaimer

This podcast (including any/all site pages, blog posts, blog comments, forums, videos, audio recordings, etc.) is not intended to replace the services of a physician, nor does it constitute a doctor-patient relationship. Information is provided for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional medical advice. You should not use the information on this podcast for diagnosing or treating a medical or health condition. If you have or suspect you have an urgent medical problem, promptly contact your professional healthcare provider. Any application of the recommendations in this podcast/website is at the listener/reader's discretion. The views and opinions expressed are those of guests and do not necessarily reflect the opinion or policy of Dawn Taylor, The Taylor Way and or its Associates. The before mentioned are not liable for any direct or indirect claim or loss. 

Transcript
 

Dawn Taylor

Hey, hey, hey, guys. Welcome to the Taylor Way. Wait. It is me, your host, Dawn Taylor. And we're going to just give you a heads up today on this episode. As you know, if you've listened to my podcast before, you know that we're talking about the things no one talks about. We're diving deep into topics and some are light, some are heavy, some are a little bit in between. But a warning on today's is we are going to be talking about suicide. We are going to be talking about grief and loss and all of those things. And if I get emotional, bear with me. If my guest gets emotional, bear with him. Um, but this is a very important conversation that needs to happen. It's an incredibly important conversation that needs to happen. And so today we are going to have it. So before we dive in, I want to tell you a little bit about our guest. Kyle is an incredible man who has lived in Edmonton his entire life. And he is, he's dedicated to working with youth and he has been for over 30 years. Like, that's insane. He has been with You Can Youth Services since 2002, and in that time it's grown from a one-person office to being a leading organization in youth work and transitional youth employment programming. He is slowly learning to understand grief as he unfortunately lost his youngest son to suicide in April of 2021. And it is a profoundly devastating journey that he has been on and as he learns to navigate life without Luke. So we are here today to talk about this, to dive into the stigma around it, the grief around it, and the fact that love is really fucking hard sometimes. So, let's welcome Kyle to the show. Hi, Kyle. 

Kyle Dube

Hey, Dawn. Thanks for having me. It's good to be here.

Dawn Taylor

It is so good to have you here. It's these topics, right? It's topics that we wish people talked about. So, right off the bat. We're going to just dive right into this. I'm going to tell you guys right now, if you're listening to the show to hear what happened, how it happened, all of that stuff, shut it off and walk away because you're not going to hear. I've said from day one, this show would never be about a sensationalism thing. But let's start with when this happened and what it was like to go through it and how you heard. 

Kyle Dube

Yeah. So, um, I've been on a, you know, I've been on a couple of podcasts before and done a couple conversations about this. As you know, Dawn, and the way that I kind of started is, um, April 4th, 2021. Um, it was Easter Sunday and it was a very normal day in our home. Um, it was during the midst of COVID and, and we probably shouldn't have had my in-laws over because of all the restrictions, but we did. 

Dawn Taylor

A little rule breaker.

Kyle Dube

Yeah. And it was just a normal day in many aspects. And my, my wife and I, uh, we're here. I have three sons, um, Liam, Jax and Luke. Liam, my oldest was home. Jax, and my middle was playing in the WHL at the time, so he was actually out of town. And Luke, my youngest, was home and we just spent the day visiting and then just doing our normal things and went to bed. Um, so I always start that way just to say it was just normal. Everything. Everything was just so exactly what we were so used to. And, um. Easter Monday. I woke up. Um, we're prepping because my middle boy had a game that night. Uh, so we were going to all watch it together and that some time when we all went to bed, my youngest son, Luke, who was 16.5 years old at the time, uh, took his own life. Um, and it was the day that, of course, changed our lives forever. It changed the lives of many forever. And it was the absolute worst day imaginable. And that's when, um, what I'll call my grief walk began. And, and it was. It was just the absolute worst. 

Dawn Taylor

Yeah. So you get hit with the worst news of your entire life. The thing that no parents ever thought that they would have to deal with.

Kyle Dube

Yeah. 

Dawn Taylor

One of the things that we had talked about in advance and discussing this is the stigma that's out there on death by suicide. Right? And the fact that it's there's shame attached to it and guilt attached to it. And people have this idea that “Oh, well, they must have been on drugs or they must have been drunk or they must have been dealing with something horrible or there was some insane trauma or whatever else.” And you guys were just like this normal, happy, loving family. I mean, you do youth work like you, like you would have seen the red flags kind of idea, right? And you had no idea. 

Kyle Dube

Yeah, so, I like to think we were, you know, and don't like to think. I know we're a really good family. Yeah. My wife and I. And you're going to hear the word relentless a lot as we talk, because, as you know, I use that word a lot at my work. I use that word a lot in my life. And we were relentless parents, um, very involved in all three boys’ lives from their schooling activities to their education, to their social lives. We have a great village, you know, great grandparents, aunts and uncles, cousins, friends, incredibly involved in a lot of different things in our community. And. Luke, oh, truthfully, none of my boys have dealt with addictions. They haven't dealt with what I would consider to be heavy mental illness like health issues. Mental illness issues. And Luke, from everything, I mean, you know, for our 16.5 years with Luke was, was a pretty normal dude. Very, very athletic, you know, did well in school, had a great group of friends. Um, and truthfully though, could be up and down. But I would suggest that that's like every 16.5 year old, you know. And you're right, I've taken suicide intervention training three or 4 or 5 times in my career, you know, I've dealt with this type of stuff in my career. And although Luke had been down for a couple few weeks prior to him taking his life, there were no massive red flags. There was nothing that made me stop in my tracks and be like, “Oh my goodness.” And we were doing all the normal things that we would do for all three of our boys if they were going through a bit of a down spiral time where, you know, given a little more attention, a little more love, more talking, all that tech stuff. And there was a darkness within Luke that we obviously did not understand. We didn't fully see it, and he obviously couldn't fully express it because he was talking to us. Um, but he couldn't fully express the depth of what that was and what that looked like for him and you know, well, I say that this was a shock of a lifetime. That's the understatement of my life. And I would suggest that that would be the same for pretty much everyone that knows us. You know, there are certain situations that you know of. I'm sure that that I know of where, you know, if somebody were to die by suicide, you never want to say, “Oh, that's not surprising.” 

Dawn Tayloe

But, let's be honest, it's that feeling of like, “Oh, it's not a shock.” It's not a jarring shock often.

Kyle Dube

Yeah, I think that's a good way to put it. A jarring shock. I think it's always shocking. But I think that the jarring shock for probably a small amount of people, though, is, you know, it's but that again, we didn't see any of that. And so there is, um, there is shame associated with suicide, right? Because, listen, there's so much guilt that we go through, Dawn, that it's incredible. And that's going to be with us forever. I have a thousand questions and they'll never be answered. They'll never be answered. And that's a very, very difficult way to live life. But, where my heart breaks is, obviously for us. My wife, my other two sons, all our village. But my heart breaks mostly for Luke. Obviously it would because he was in so much turmoil and pain internally that he ended his life and it's a pain that's indescribable. I literally cannot describe the pain that we go through every day from April 5th, 2021. 

Dawn Taylor

So, for anyone listening to this who is considering taking your life, who knows someone who is. Please, please, please, please, please share this with them. And I want you to hear these words. So, right before we started this conversation, now I'm going to get emotional. I was telling Kyle that I have been there and I remember laying in a hospital bed when they found me and they saved me, and I lived in, every part of me believed that I had failed. And I was so angry. And if you've read my book, you know that I talk about this in there and hearing Kyle's words, even for me, feel like hearing a father's words to a child, of what they went through and what that looks like. And I just want to challenge anyone who's listening, like, hear that. The vulnerability of what he's even saying, right? Because it is an indescribable pain when you lose someone like that. 

Kyle Dube

You know, it's the way I described the first, I'll say 2 to 4 weeks. And you may have heard me describe it this way before, Dawn. It's like when you watch a movie and it's some movie and a bomb goes off. And the people that survived that bomb there, there's a ringing and there's their ears and it's confusing and they don't really know where they are. And they're disorientated. That's kind of what it was like for the first month until that fog cleared, but I'll be honest with you, I still feel that way often. There's times where both my wife and I will say to one another, we just can't. It's almost. it's you know, we're almost two and a half years in and it's still surreal. It it it. It's still, none of it makes sense. And you really feel like we cannot believe that this is our lives right now, and grief is a very, very hard thing and grief is something that I believe I had an acquaintance. You know, grief was an acquaintance of mine prior to dying because I had lost some people in my life. And it was hard. But until you lose a child and, you know, people say, well, “You know, you can't compare.” Well, you can compare. You know, I lost my mom not even a year after Luke to cancer. She was 67. She shouldn't have died. I love my mom so much. And truthfully, I don't think I've started to process it yet because my mom, who I loved so much, is not my greatest loss. You know, Luke's death, the loss of a child. It's the unnatural order of life, right? And unfortunately, with suicide. Um, you don't have something to blame. Well, that's a lie. Some suicides, you do. You know, maybe it's addiction. Maybe there was an overdose. Maybe, whatever. Maybe it's heavy mental illness, whatever that is, but it's not. You know, a very, very good friend of mine lost his son in the Humboldt crash and he said, “Kyle, I don't know who where you put your anger.” Because for him, he you know, the way for him, it's he was putting it all at a truck driver or a trucking industry or whatever. I have a friend who lost his son to cancer. He puts all of his anger towards cancer. Um, Luke wasn't bullied. Luke wasn't sick. Luke didn't have addictions like. I don't know. 

Dawn Taylor

None of the normal.

Kyle Dube

No. And this is some of the stuff that you and I've talked about where I almost feel at times like a hypocrite saying be relentless with your kids because we are relentless with our kids and we were with Luke, and yet Luke still took his own life. But, I still think the strong message is you have to be relentless with your kids. You have to be. And you know what? Let's not even say your kids. Let's say anybody in your life, anybody in your life who you have that. And you know who you think might or might not be doing well. Show up. Show up, be relentless. And that as a parent, you know, let's be honest, a lot of young people, they don't want to talk to their parents. That's normal. You didn't want to. I didn't want to. But I think that we have to be annoying. We really do.

Dawn Taylor

Oh, I like that. Yeah.

Kyle Dube

They don't want. They don't want to talk to you. Oh, well, still knock on their door. Bang on their door. Go lie on their bed. Go talk to them. Even if they don't talk back, eventually it's going to sink in. And we did all that stuff. Yeah. And it's it's. Yeah. So I'm kind of rambling here, but–

Dawn Taylor

No, no, it's okay. Oh, don't ever apologize. It's grief. It's words. Don't apologize for them. Break down what relentless means to you. 

Kyle Dube

I think there's some basic things around like, you know, just don't ever give up. You know, when you fall down, you know, you get back up. Um, show up all the time. Be there all the time. Much easier said than done. Right? It is. I think a great definition of it is, be a pain in the ass. You know, I really believe that that is being relentless. And you can take any aspect of your life and be a pain in the ass relentlessly. Um, you know, at work, you want to do better and work well, be relentless, you know, again, show up, do your best, all that type of stuff. But I really do believe it is pursuing a relationship in a healthy way. You know, and pursuing it because it matters that much. Now, that's what I believe it is. And interestingly enough, Dawn, the most relentless thing in my life is grief. 

Dawn Taylor

It's not leaving you alone.

Kyle Dube

It'll never leave. It will never quit. That's what being relentless is. You never quit and grief will never quit.

Dawn Taylor

Grief is an interesting one. It won't ever quit. But we get bigger than it. 

Kyle Dube

Yeah. I'm not there yet. I think for me, what it is, is learning to adapt your life around it, right? It's like a chronic physical pain where you have to adapt your life around that and you just end up getting used to it, really. But that's what grief is to me is learning to adapt your life around it. Because, listen, two and a half years in, there have been some shifts. There's a lot of things that I'll say I and we can do now that we couldn't do a year ago. Yeah, there's still a lot, there's truthfully, there's some things I can't do now that I could do a year ago, which is interesting. But there's, there's different shifts, but it's because we're learning to live with it. You know, there's a song, I forget what it's called and, oh, I forgot to call. But the lyrics are essentially the only cure for the pain is the pain. And that's it. You just, it's a grind every day. I wish somebody could say, listen, on, you know, March 15th, 2029, you'll feel so good. You'll feel the way you felt that on April 4th, 2021, the day before Luke took his life. But that's not going to happen because if that were to happen, then I go, “Okay, put my head down, grind it out. Let's go.” But that's not going to happen. You know, I've read that the depth of your grief is the reflection of the depth of your love for that individual.

Dawn Taylor

Yes, it is. 

Kyle Dube

And that makes sense to me, you know? I mean, listen, there's tragedy all over the place. There is. But if you're not connected to it or you don't have that love connection to it, it kind of doesn't affect you, right? 

Dawn Taylor

Not in the same way. Not even close. 

Kyle Dube

Yeah. I mean, you just kind of. The world moves on, right? But when you're in the midst of this, your world doesn't move on. How do I move on from my sweet, beautiful, perfect Luke because he was my boy. 

Dawn Taylor

He was your baby.

Kyle Dube

How do you move on from that? You can't. So what we're trying to do is somehow move forward by still carrying him but it's really hard. And then there's all those things that go with it. And we can get into this if you want. All the things around the guilt. You know

Dawn Taylor

You're willing to go there. Let's go there.

Kyle Dube

The living constantly with the “If I would have done this, I should have done this. Maybe I could have done this.” Like all these different things. I literally think back to, okay, when he was, when he was three years old and this happened, maybe I should have reacted this way instead of that. Like you literally question every single thing you did as a parent. Everything. That's hard.

Dawn Taylor

Have you, so some of the stigmas, right? So many of the stigmas attached to suicide are that, right? Is that there's, you know, a judgment from the outside and I've heard this before from people where there is a death by suicide, which is really a death by mental health. That, you know, people on the outside are like, “Oh, wonder what happened in their family? Wonder what was going on with their kid? Oh, I bet you they were not good parents or whatever.” You know, like you hear those things. And I've often said that like my parents struggled with me, but my parents were phenomenal parents. They were amazing parents. They were amazing grandparents, amazing friends and family. Maybe not to me, but everyone else, right? And it wasn't that, like, I actually truly to the core of my being believed that I was doing them a favor. Like it was an act of love from me, right? Which is what's so wild. Right. And so when I heard that before, you know, or even like when a celebrity dies in that way, you know, all of the judgments and the stuff that's attached to it. And I'm like, “No.”

Kyle Dube

It's interesting because, you know, you and I have talked about this a little bit where I don't know if we've been judged. You know, I'm assuming I've been because I'm assuming, um, listen, we've all been there. We've all heard of somebody dying by suicide. And right away you kind of go into this, “Oh, like, why? How?” Like you start asking all the questions, too, and then you really start analyzing, like, you know, where they come from, what happened in their lives, all that type of stuff. And so I'm assuming maybe that happened to us. But honestly, if it has, I haven't experienced it. And I don't know if that's because. I refuse to be judged. You know, And I'm not trying to be all like, “Oh, I'm so strong, I won't be judged.” But I just. I just look at it and I and truthfully, part of my attitude is and I know we can swear on here, part of my attitude is if you want to judge me like, “Fuck you, like, go ahead.” You know what I mean? Yeah. 

I know even though we all blame ourselves. And even though I blame myself and a lot of people go, “Well, you can't blame yourself.” 

Dawn Taylor

It's easier said than done, right.

Kyle Dube

Like, rationally. I know it's not my fault. I know it's not anybody's fault. Yeah, but emotionally, that's almost impossible to for me anyways to separate the two. But I know that when Luke, of course we had, you know, people were being notified the school Luke was in grade 11 and they reached out to us and said, “How do you want it?” Because I don't know. I didn't know any of this. Um, or maybe I did, but I was in such a fog that they would put out, like, a notice, right? Like school, division wide. If a child dies, they do that. And they asked us that. They asked us the language. Like if we were okay. If they put the words like how he died, the word suicide. And we huddled up and within like a minute we're like, well, yes, like, my question was more like, “Well, why wouldn't she?” And maybe that's just the way we are. Like, we wouldn't like to think we wouldn't judge others for it, but our initial thought was “No. Like, we're not ashamed of Luke.” I'm so proud of my son. I'm not ashamed of him. And I'm not ashamed of what he did, and our next thought was maybe this will get people talking. You know, maybe this will actually have parents, you know, you've seen it many times. I've done it and said it whenever young people have died or I'm like, “Well, I'm going to hug my kids a little tighter tonight.” I think that's great. That's good. But you got to do more than that. Suicide is not an easy thing to talk about it, like who wants to talk about suicide, right? I think it's so important for families to discuss it. Not every day. Not like, you know, hey, every day at supper. Let's talk about it. But I think it's good to be checking in with your kids and with people in general. I really do believe that. And so that's another reason why we said no. You let people know that Luke died by suicide and then we kind of went a little bit public with it. On social media and stuff like that, and it honestly wasn't a garner attention to us or garner attention to, you know, it was more garner attention around please go talk, go If you are suicidal, go talk to somebody or if you know somebody that you think might be go talk to them. And yeah, but there is that stigma and that shame, right? There's all that person screwed up. And I agree with what you say. Suicide is death by mental illness. And obviously Luke had mental health issues that we did not recognize. 

Dawn Taylor

Can I say, not even that you didn't recognize, but that he did really well? 

Kyle Dube

Yeah, I think he did. I think he did.  I've met other people who have been in your situation, Dawn, who, um, who attempted and it would be a similar story. I thought I was just going to rid the world of something bad. You know, like, I thought this would be better for everybody else and if that isn't mental?

Dawn Taylor

Oh, it's mental illness. It's 100% it's mental illness. But I also think that we are, some people just internalize and some of us do just keep secrets. I remember when my book came out and talking to a few people, one of my family members was like, either I was the worst -  It was my brother. He's like, “Either I was the worst brother or you were the world's greatest secret keeper. Which was it?”

Kyle Dube

Right. 

Dawn Taylor

And I said, honestly, probably a bit of both. But I'm an incredible keeper. Secret keeper.

Kyle Dube

Yeah, it's an interesting way to look at it because, um, Luke was a pretty quiet guy, you know? I mean, Luke was hilarious around here. Like, you know, Luke would talk and talk and talk and talk it with his buddies. He would talk, but for the Luke, Luke was, as he went into his teenagers anyways, he just became more introverted. But not abnormally. Oh, and I mean, my oldest boy is quite introverted, yet he's one of the funniest people I've ever met in my life.

Dawn Taylor

Oh, that's introverts. We're hilarious. You just got to get us comfortable.

Kyle Dube

That's so interesting that you would say us introverts, because people, in my opinion, don't know who's an introvert and who isn't an introvert because I would not look at you as an introvert. Right? So, you know, but I would say you could look at Luke as, as he was an introvert, but that, that's a strength. You know, I also used to have. And I really did have the attitude that, well, suicide was weak and selfish. 

Dawn Taylor

There's a stigma around it.

Kyle Dube

Huge stigma.

Dawn Taylor

Huge, massive stigma around it.

Kyle

And I guess it took my son, taking his own life, too. Luke was not weak. Luke is one of the strongest, most bullheaded people I've ever met in my life. 

Dawn Taylor

You really mean he was your son?

Kyle Dube

He was my son. Luke was so relentless. If Luke wanted to do something, he was relentless. He was strong. And you know what? Was Luke selfish? Yeah, because every 16 year old is selfish. But if Luke would see, if Luke would see the carnage and the aftermath of what has happened here? Luke would have never done that. He just because Luke wasn't selfish. So again, I look at it, it was described to me this way, and I like the analogy of it was, it's a brain attack. You know, it's, it's like a heart attack or, you know, his brain failed him. His brain failed him and he couldn't not see past that moment. 

Dawn Taylor

You know, can we just pause there for a second? Because I think more people need to hear that is even when it comes to mental health, when it comes to any of this. He had a brain attack. Right? Like, his brain failed him. And if you're lucky enough that in your depression or in your dark place or in your trauma or in your, whatever that you do, reach out to someone and you do find someone that can work with you and you do. You do find that glimmer of hope that allows you to fight for yourself. You're actually lucky.  Like, you're dreamily lucky. Because a lot of people don't believe they're worth fighting for. A lot of people have had that ingrained in them. A lot of people have been gaslit to believe that we're actually okay when we're not, to believe that we're not broken when we feel broken. You know, I think that more people need to look at it as a brain break, right? It's like a heart attack, but in your head.

Kyle Dube

Right, and also looked at it where like, you know, I'll use me as an example. I'm not the healthiest guy. I smoke. I'm, you know, got some extra pounds. I could lose some, you know, some would say I'm a heart attack waiting to happen. Well, if you think about it that way and then you just think about mental illness. Well, Luke knew that he wasn't doing well. And then like a heart attack. You don't know when it's coming? No. And I actually, talking to a couple other people that I know that have gone through this, it just happened. It was just, you know, they obviously planned it out and this and that, but it was like. There was no for them. There was no turning back. And that, to me, is a brain attack. Yeah, it really is. The brain failed them and believe that that happens to many people. We take their lives, you know, that are not strung out on drugs or completely hammered or, you know, that's what I believe, and it's brutal. It's brutal.

Dawn Taylor

So how has it shifted? Your relationship with your other boys. How has it shifted your relationships with people closest to you? When this deep, crazy love has hurt you so hard. 

Kyle Dube

How? 

Dawn Taylor

Yeah, I think there's been over these last two and a half years for you.

Kule Dube

Yeah, I think there's a few things to unpack there, I think, with, with my other boys. Um, and, you know, I'll never tell my wife's story or my other boys story because– 

Dawn Taylor

Absolutely not.

Kyle Dube

Because I can’t understand what they're going through. Right? Like our relationships were, were very different with Luke because, you know, father to son, mother to son, brother. But as far as the other boys go, I mean, we are hypersensitive now. Oh, what's happening in their lives and. And that that's hard. Like, it can at times almost be I don't want to say debilitating, but it does turn into a thing where, you know, it's just a constant worry. Because, again, like, this wasn't supposed to happen to Luke. And so it and that's a tough way to live, and I actually feel bad for the boys sometimes because think it's probably a tough way for them to live knowing that mom and dad are literally, you know, mean they're 20 and almost 22 now and, you know, there's times where you feel like there are three and five years old because you just want to. You want to be at every single moment of their lives to make sure that they're okay. And so that's tough. Um, you know, I check in a lot with those boys and they're very gracious with me because I'm sure they just want to say, “Shut up, dad, Like, get lost.” But they're very gracious. Um. It's just very hard for them. It's very hard to watch what they've gone through. You know, they were 17, almost 18, and you know, 18, almost 19 when this happened. And their lives are changed forever. You know, my boys were very close. I mean, we had we had all three of them in three years and nine days, you know, And now, you know, they're brothers. They did brother things, They fought, they did all that stuff. But. But but they were very, very close. And just, yeah, but as far as others go, I mean, I don't know. Like it's interesting. I have to step back often, Dawn, because I have to step back and go, “Okay, Kyle, that is relevant to that person's life.” Like, that is the worst thing that's happening in that person's life. This is the way I'll explain it. I would say that my empathy levels, uh, have increased profoundly for other people. And yet they've decreased. Not profoundly, but they've decreased some as well. And the reason I say that is because I see I see a lot of people just differently, people that are going through different things. But, one of my best friends, his mom, has Alzheimer's and like, full blown Alzheimer's. Like, it's just so sad. And I see him differently and and and probably even more so I see his dad differently because they're grieving the loss of this amazing woman who's still alive.

Dawn Taylor

Oh, it's like a death every day. Yeah.

Kyle Dube

And so I really see them differently after Luke died because of the grief part. Now, I also see some people differently whenever they're bitching and moaning and complaining about something in their lives. And I'm like, Are you just sitting there thinking sometimes? “Is that seriously what you are talking about here? Like, give me a break.”

Dawn Taylor

“Are you fucking kidding me?”

Kyle Dube

But, but, I have to step back and go, “No, that is the worst thing in their lives at this moment.”

Dawn Taylor

And at times I talk about that with clients where my clients are like, apologize for coming to me because I feel like other people have it worse. And I'm like, “No, no, no, no, no. There isn't a chart. There isn't a comparison. Your truth is your truth. What you've been through is what you've been through and how it affected you is how it affected you.”

Kyle Dube

Right, but maybe I'm just a bit of an asshole sometimes because I know.

Dawn Taylor

We all have those moments. We all have those moments.

Kyle Dube
 

Do that all the time. Sometimes I'm like, “No, that really isn't anything to be that upset about. Like, suck it up and, like, give me a break.”

Dawn Taylor

Okay. My one is the, the. When someone compares the death of their animal to a child or a parent or someone, and I'm like–

Kyle Dube

And I've had that a few times. Yeah. 

Dawn Taylor

And for the for the pet lovers out there, I'm sure you're mad that I just said that. And a lot of people fully believe that you grieve them just as strong of your family. I can't agree.

Kyle Dube

I'm here to tell you that it's actually. It's not the same. And our dog. We have our dog because of Luke. Luke was relentless in us getting a dog and running, is the most special. Um, she is everything to all of us. Yeah. And so I understand the deep, deep love of a pet. I fully understand it, but it ain't the same. Like it just so I've had a few people do that, you know, things that get said or done. It's all around the topic of what my wife taught me. She learned it somewhere around grief illiteracy, ad and being grief literate or grief illiterate. And that's what I spoke of earlier, where, prior to Luke dying, grief was an acquaintance of mine and after Luke died, it is just literally embedded into me. Like it's it's weaved all through my every fiber of my being now, and prior to Luke dying I was illiterate and truthfully am still grief illiterate. And what I mean by grief illiterate is when people say things to you, when people compare and say, “Oh no, I remember losing our dog.” It's just such an illiterate thing to say to someone grieving deeply or things like. You know, people will say, “Oh, I understand.” And it's like, “No, you don't.” But on the flip side of all of that. We don't get mad at people. Like it hurts us, to be honest with you. But they're not intentionally trying to hurt us. 

Dawn Taylor

No, they're not.

Kyle Dube

People don't know how to handle grief. Our society has no clue how to handle grief. And I know this because meither did I. And truthfully, sometimes I still don't. I've right after the two year with Luke, there's a there's a person I know, and they lost their child to suicide. And I knew this person. And this, the mom reached out to me to let me know via email. Dawn. I had no idea what to say to her. I had no idea how to respond to her. Because, so I'm grief illiterate still, right? And think the reason I didn't know what to do or say is because, maybe my grief literacy has led me to realize there's nothing people can do or say. Literally nothing. So when people are grief illiterate, you kind of can't be mad at them. You know, you can't be upset with them. I would just encourage people that if you don't know what to say or what to do, that's okay. Then just don't say anything. No, when I say that, I think it's good to show up. You know, here's something to– sorry, this is turning into the educational piece of what to say or do to me.

Dawn Taylor

That's honestly, I always ask, like for someone listening, what recommendations would you have on if someone in their life is going through this or someone you know is going through this? What would you say?

Kyle Dube

You know, this is about grief that I'm talking about, but it's really about anything when someone's going through a hardship. 

Dawn Taylor

Yeah. 

Kyle Dube

And I've done this many times, is where you drop the “Let me know if you if I can do anything for you or let me know if you need anything.” Guess what? I'm not calling you to tell you what I need or what you mean because I don't even know what I need or what you can do. Now there's some different things like, you know what? Maybe you could cut the grass for me or maybe you could, but I'm probably still not going to do that. So, here's the one thing that I would suggest is that if you are supporting somebody who's grieving deeply. For whoever, whatever that loss was, whoever that loss is. Just do it. If you think they need a meal, just do it. If you think that they would love some chocolate chip cookies, just bake it and drop it off on their front door. If you think that they need some groceries, if you think that they need whatever, just do it. And because guess what? If they don't need it or they don't want it. They just won't use it or they won't eat it or they won't do it. But does that matter? I don't think it does.

Dawn Taylor

No, not at all.

Kyle Dube

Not at all. So that's something that I would say. Yeah, I would say that. And really just show up. Just show up and maybe you just show up and you don't even talk. You know, maybe you just show up. I had people that literally just showed up and just sat with me. And that was, that was needed, and they didn't have to do a lot of talking. And maybe while I'm a talker, but maybe they were listening. Maybe they, that's all you have to do, and I would also encourage people to continue to do it. Because, show up. Continue to show up because, like, we said earlier, the world keeps moving, Right? And so what happens and I think, you know, this with all the work you've done is is that support which was overwhelming how much support we go, we're very blessed.

Dawn Taylor

But it disappears really quick. 

Kyle Dube

It fades away. And then it's. It's pretty isolating. Yeah, it's pretty lonely. And I'm a very social being. Um, have a lot of incredibly, incredibly good people in my life, but kind of self-isolate a bit now because I almost feel like, well, I don't know if they, I don't know if they want to hang out. Like, just I don't know. It's just. It's all weird. Everything changes.

Dawn Taylor

Everything's just weird after,

Kyle Dube

Right? Everything changes. And, you know. So just keep showing up and don't have the expectation that that person is going to respond to you quickly or even respond at all. Just keep sending a heart emoji. Just keep sending text messages, voice messages, whatever that looks like. And, you know, we had a few things that happened. Those don't happen for a bit now. Um, and I don't know who. We have no idea who would do this, but, um, and I won't get into all the details of how we do this internally as a family, but we do five hearts. Forever five. And just randomly on our front door, like we have our front door and then like to the side, there's like a kind of a window, like, you know. And just randomly because you know how windows get dusty and stuff like on the there would be five hearts in the window. We have no we have no idea who. It happened about 4 or 5 times. No idea who did it. No idea when they did it. Yeah, but I'll tell you. It was pretty special, you know? Um, so, I just encourage others that if you're supporting people who are grieving, definitely just keep showing up, just keep showing up and and accept their moods and accept their ups and downs.

Dawn Taylor

Whatever their capacity is.

Kyle Dube

Right? Because at the end of the day, it's not about, you know, that's a big thing that I've learned. I've always kind of felt that way. But after Luke's death, I've really, you know, you can look inwardly or you can look outwardly and you can love inwardly or love outwardly. And I do my best to love outwardly as much as I can, because it ain't about me. You know it isn't. I do want others around me to feel comfortable with our situation and feel okay about our situation. So, I do my best to try to accommodate that for others. It's exhausting,

Dawn Taylor

I can see that it is.

Kyle Dube

But it's important to me and. You know, I mean, the whole idea of love. You know, we talked about my other boys earlier and what that does to relationships around love. My boys in school had a teacher in grade six and won't bring names out but as you say, I thought it was funny. I love, love, love, love. And I'm like “Yeah, whatever. That's so cheesy.” But at the end of the day, we all love love. We all love to be loved. We all love to feel love. I don't know about you. Like I love giving a gift. Probably more than receiving a gift.

Dawn Taylor

Oh, always. Yeah.

Kyle Dube

Yeah. But when you love that hard. Be prepared for the pain to be even harder when the loss happens. And that's a tough thing to wrap your brain around. 

Dawn Taylor

Don't let that be what holds you back from loving hard,

Kyle Dube

Right? Right. But. You know, you like to talk about things on here that other people don't want to talk about.

Dawn Taylor

Yes, I do.

Kyle Dube

I'm going to tell you right now that sometimes. Not all the time. I don't even know if I'm going to say it anyways. Whatever. I'll say it. There's there's times that I wish I had never met my wife. Because then we wouldn't be going through what we're going through right now. There's times that I wish I never had kids. Because then we wouldn't be going through what we're going through right now. Now, is that a selfish thing to say? Yep, it is. And some people will know that's not.

Dawn Taylor

It’s real. It's real.

Kyle Dube

But it is selfish. It is like, God, I'm not going to sugarcoat and say it, but. But I'm also okay to be selfish. Sometimes grief is selfish. I'm okay to be selfish, but there are moments. Not a lot of them. But there are moments where I'm like, “Yeah, I wish none of us wish that this was our life that we're living.” And so there are times that if I'm brutally honest about it. And I adore my wife. My wife is the greatest, and the hardest thing for me, other than losing Luke is watching my wife. It is so, indescribably painful to watch what she's going through as a mom, because I actually do think it's different, mom and dad. I really do believe that. And it's not it's not to belittle pain from a father's point of view. Or any of that. But didn't carry Luke for nine months. I didn't give birth to him. I didn't. 

Dawn Taylor

it's different. It's just. It's just different

Kyle Dube

It's just so hard. It's just so hard to explain. And, one thing I'm very and it's a maybe it's a weird way to put it, but, I'm so proud of of the four of us, because on April 6th, we all got up and we showered and got dressed and we tried. And we have literally all got up and showered, and got dressed and tried every day since

Dawn Taylor

Which is incredible.

Kyle Dube

And I don't know how. I really don't. I would love to just sleep for six months. But we can't. I guess we could. And I'm not judging for anybody who does. 

Dawn Taylor

I've tried. You can't actually sleep that long. 

Kyle Dube

Yeah, that's right.  I'm not judging anybody who, you know, there's different vices that people get into.

Dawn Taylor

Everyone has their own way of dealing and healing and grieving

Kyle Dube

But somehow we've done that. But again, when you love that hard when loss happens. I actually look at it like that feeling that you get from truly being loved, right? From your partner or for me. From my kids. The pain is 100 times worse. 

Dawn Taylor

Yeah. 

Kyle Dube

Well, how do you say worse? Not worse. Because love is so good. 

Dawn Taylor

It's harder to deal with a loss.

Kyle Dube

How about this? I feel that love, but I actually think that I feel that pain a million times more than I felt the love. And I think that that's what, and I've said it before in a couple other things. What I missed the most is the love and the exchanges of love. That's what I miss the most. And it's all those exchanges of love that you have with loved ones that nobody even knows about. You know, the little looks, the inside jokes, you know, just all the little tiny things. And I could list you a thousand things that I miss. And it's hard. And there's certain things that I, you know, that I have a hard time with. Luke and I used to watch Jeopardy. I know. So nerdy. We'd watch Jeopardy when he was a little boy. We'd watch it. I mean, I always thought I was pretty good at Jeopardy, and he would try really hard, and we just beacon one another and tease one another. And If I'm flipping the TV and Jeopardy's on, I cannot watch Jeopardy anymore. You know, with little things like that, you know? 

Dawn Taylor

You know, so having not I've never lost a child. I'm just putting that out there. This is not a comparison. But it's interesting, having lost my mom in 2008. And I actually talked in your podcast about that as well. But a few of the things that were cool was when the shift happened, you know, we talked about like 2029, if the magic could happen that you've all of a sudden would feel amazing. I have often said to people that the grief, the loss doesn't go away because they're still lost. They're still gone. Right. But, there was a shift that happened where I could shift it from “She's gone and I'm grieving that and it hurts so bad.” to “How do I honor that different? And can I have a little piece of her back by doing those actions and activities?” So, by going to do our favorite things, right, by going to the greenhouse or planting the garden or, you know, watching the Jeopardy show or, you know, my mom and I bought each other Christmas City every year. It was this dorky thing. We'd both find a CD and then we'd buy each other a copy and we'd send it to them and mail it to them or give it to them. And the amount of years that went without buying a Christmas CD or refusing to listen to Christmas music and it took a really long time, I'll be honest. And I had hurt with my mom, right. But the year that I was like, I'm going to buy a Christmas CD and I'm going to do this and it's going to hurt like, fuck. I'll be honest, it was a very big moment for me. But I did it and I could find a little piece of her in it and laugh about it and think how funny it was. And one year I bought her, like, the Christmas CD, and she was like, “What did you buy me?” Like, she was so mortified at how bad it was. Sorry, Bonnie. And, you know, I got an opportunity last year to actually go see them in concert. And is it because I love Bonnie? No, but I went and I sat there and at times just cried, thinking of, like, this is the kind of thing I would have done is bring my mom to a Bonnie in concert to trick her, knowing that she would have just been, like, really done. Like, “Why didn't you do this?”

Kyle Dube

That's the thing, is you were able to cry but laugh and have those. 

Dawn Taylor

But there's been an interesting shift, right? And I'm excited for the day that some of that shifts for you. And it might not be for a long time, but where you can do those things again, where you could sit and watch the show and have the cry and laugh about it, and then guess at what he would have guessed or what he would have said and and still feel like you're living with his legacy and a piece of him in those moments and also finding someone and this would be my one recommendation for people listening is, as much as it might be hard if they want to talk about the person, talk about them. That is probably one of the hardest things I dealt with was even in my grieving and in my healing of our relationship and my healing of stuff, I still needed to talk about my mom. And it felt like nobody wanted to talk about her and it felt like she was forgotten about and no one would discuss her. And I finally found a couple people that engaged me in that, and even if it was so hard for them and they'd comment on that sometimes and I'd be like, “Thank you. I know how much this means to have this conversation.” and we would just just laugh about or talk about or compare stories and, and just like invite her into current life.

Kyle Dube 

Yes. Yes. So it's interesting that you bring this up because I'm really struggling with that still. I shouldn't say. Still, I've been struggling with it the whole time and I think I'll continue to. And so when we talk about stigma around suicide, um, a big fear that we have is people are going to forget Luke. Because, if someone dies with natural causes or someone maybe dies unnaturally with, you know, a car crash or an accident or whatever. Quite often their lives are celebrated right there. What we've realized is that, this is my perception anyways, and you need to know this is my perception that I think people, some people look at Luke this way because this is a way that I'm still struggling to not look at Luke this way is that he was a sad 16.5 year old boy who died by suicide. And that's not who Luke was. Like, If you would have known Luke. I've already talked a bit about him, right? Like, that's.not who he was, and we didn't have a service for Luke because it was during COVID and we could literally have ten people there. 

Dawn Taylor

Oh. Which made it even harder because you couldn't have a celebration. 

Kyle Dube

We couldn't. And it's not even the celebration. It would have been no celebration for us. Like that's that's maybe it's not even a stigma when someone dies by suicide. How do you celebrate them? Like that's, I'm and I believe that you can like, don't get me wrong, I'm actually going to start, I'm doing some work on myself. I'm going into a, uh, therapeutic type thing that I'm going to start here in the fall where it's about reintroducing yourself. It's all based on suicide, but reintroducing yourself to your loved one. Because I need to celebrate Luke. I need to do those things that you just talked about. Eventually, I really believe that I do. And but, you know, you hear of, whatever, celebration of life services or whatever. If people that take their lives like, quite often, even at the service, that's all talked about and it's just so somber and so sad. And again, we didn't even have a service. So truthfully, we don't talk about Luke very much. And I don't want to say that because we do, but not in the way I want us to get to a point where we're going all “Luke would have laughed his head off at that.” All “Luke, remember when Luke did this?” And we do a little bit of that. That's where a bit of a shift is. That's happening a bit. But I want it to become embedded into our daily life. 

Dawn Taylor

So, can I challenge you on that?

Kyle Dube

One thing I was going to, was we love when people send us a message or when we're talking to people when they say Luke's name. Because then we're going, “Okay. They haven't forgotten Luke.” You know, we've got a family friend. I'll say your first name, Gina. And she's just the best. She's our friend's daughter. She's 20 years old. And on the fifth of every month, the fifth of every month since Luke died, she sends my wife and I a message saying, “I'm thinking about you. I love Luke so much.” And I'm telling you, Dawn, it means so much to us that she does that. And I think mostly because she says Luke's name. Because a lot of people in our lives, we just don't talk about Luke Now, let's be honest. We also don't talk about our other kids constantly.

Dawn Taylor

Yeah.

Kyle Dube

Right? But the sad part for us is when we get together and we actually don't even do it that much anymore. And this is a reason why, because when you get together and we hope that we'll be able to do it more in the future, but when you get together with people that you've kind of raised your kids with. While you give updates on all the kids, you know? We have no updates to give Luke. Luke is 16.5 years old forever now. And that's hard. That's hard. What's your challenge? What's your challenge?

Dawn Taylor

My challenge would be start with one tiny thing and whether it's always, you know, a favorite food that he loved at Christmas when you guys are together or something like that. I started it because my mom passed away when her grandkids were quite young. And so I started in a way of my mom loved doing puzzles. So, I always have a puzzle going on the table and everyone used to laugh at me for it, and now it's become a regular thing at Christmas. And I just make, like, funny comments about it now. The kids are doing it and it's really funny because it's like they act like they know Grandma because they've heard me talk about grandma so much that I'd be like, “Oh, you can't start in the middle. You have to sort the edges first. Grandma would not be impressed.” Right? Or laughing about silly things like, “Do you remember when Mom got mad because we did this at the table and she put literally dish soap down our mouths because that was what she like?” She was just so angry and held us down and did that.

Kyle Dube

I grew up with soap in my mouth a lot too.

Dawn Taylor

Right? But, like, it's just little things, and it started for me, of every single time I'm with my siblings or my nieces and nephews that I would try like one time a day, just one time of day to somehow incorporate a mom's story.

Kyle Dube

Yeah, no, I like that. And, like I said, it's something that even subconsciously, obviously, it's come around a little bit more. Um, truthfully, my wife's better at it than I am. I'm hopeful that what I'm going to do here in the fall will bring me to a better space that way. But again, Luke's identity needs, it needs to shift for me. And because it's because I know that that's not who Luke was. So that's tough, you know? And again, it's the stigma around suicide. You know, there's terms that we don't like,  I really appreciate how you the language you use when you talk about suicide because neither of us have said the C-word yet. 

Dawn Taylor

Oh, yeah. 

Kyle Dube

And I'll say, in case people think that, I'm talking about another word. The term committed suicide. It's a horrible term because it's actually a criminal term and we struggle with the term suicide prevention. Because it's like, for us now as a mom and dad or brothers or grandparents and whatever. It's, oh, suicide prevention. I guess we should have worked harder at preventing this. 

Dawn Taylor

I was going to say, there's such a shame attached to it and it makes it seem like it's always preventable.

Kyle Dube

Right? And at the end of the day, we are a great example of how it isn't always preventable. Because obviously if it was, we would have. And I think it's Australia that have really worked hard to change their language of even like national campaigns and all that type of stuff where suicide is complicated. 

Dawn Taylor

So that's a good way to word that.

Kyle Dube

And it is it's it's. Incredibly complicated. So Luke's birthday, the two hardest days of the year for us, or April 5th, the day that he died, and September 30th, which is Luke's birthday. And, well, what's September is Suicide Prevention Month. So, all September on all the social media is like, it's just constant suicide prevention. Listen, I'm a believer in the cause obviously. I just wish that the language was a little bit different, you know? I do.  If it can happen to our family. Not that we were perfect. Not that we are. We're not a perfect family. But, I do believe we're a good family. And we're a family where again, it's that saying of like, it takes a village and we have this incredible village. But if it can happen to us with the village that we're involved in, it can literally happen to anybody. And my hope is that anyone listening will really sit back and reflect on that and and try to do everything they can to be relentless. And again, I use the word relentless. I mean, we met because I have a podcast, the relentless podcast 

Dawn Taylor

You do, and I was on it. 

Kyle Dube

You were. And people should go listen because your story is as the way I describe it. Unbelievable. Because it's almost unbelievable, and the podcast is not about Luke, and so it's based around because we use this word at my work all the time. All my youth workers are relentless youth workers. We are relentless with these at risk, vulnerable young people that we work with. And again, it's what that description of relentless is, we show up for them all the time. We're we are literally banging on doors when they're not showing up to jobs or appointments. And like we are, that's what we do as parents, Jeanette and I. And that's what these young people need. So, that's a plug for you can use services, you know, please do check us out.

Dawn Taylor

We will put all the links in our show notes for anyone who needs to find Kyle, you can find them. 

Kyle Dube 

And that Relentless Podcast is just bringing people like you want and so many others to talk about how they've had to be relentless in their lives to get to where they are today. And there is a two part episode on there with me and Chris Joseph, very good friend of mine who lost his son in the Humboldt crash. And because of the most relentless pressure in our lives is grief. But, I can't, I heard it said this way and I say it this way. I don't believe I'm ever going to be proof. But I can't, I've got to do my best to make sure grief isn't beating me. How about this? At least all the time. It can't be beating. And because it is relentless. So, I need to be relentless in my life. I need to live. And I need to love. Some days it's not easy. Some days it's easier. But that's what I have to tell myself all the time. In order to get through this, I have to live and I have to love. Um. But please, listeners, this, I don't know. I think it's a common thing to say about many things. Suicide does not discriminate. It doesn't. Mental health. Mental health does not. Mental illness does not discriminate. And I'm just begging you to be relentless in your own life. Be relentless in the lives of others. That's it. 

Dawn Taylor

Thank you, Kyle. Thank you for being here. Thank you for being so vulnerable. Thank you for sharing Luke with us. Your precious, amazing son. I am so honored that you hung out with us today and that you shared this with us and for the listeners. I hope you got a kick in the gut on this one. I really hope you did. Not that it just hit home. We've all been raised with these stigmas. We hear these stigmas around us, we hear them in the news, we hear them in the media, we hear our friends talk about them. And I hope that this episode will challenge you to step up, stand up and change your language on things, change your stigmas and ideas on things, but also don't be afraid to speak up to those around you. 

If you want to find Kyle, he's the executive director over there and doing amazing work in this city. Please check out our show notes located at TheTaylorWay.ca for all the contact information for Kyle, his podcast. We'll post the episode I did there so you can go listen to that. It's a very cool episode. We dug really deep on some stuff in my world and it was really powerful. Join us again in two weeks for another topic. And please, please share this with people in your life that need to hear this. Subscribe now on Apple, Spotify or wherever you listen to your podcasts and if you love the show, leave a rating and a review. 

Why you would want to listen to this episode…

Chris Boyle’s life is mainly composed of two things - finance and fatherhood. The finance-related aspect is something he does very well, having over a decade’s worth of experience in the field. However, when it comes to fatherhood, Chris admits that he still has a lot to learn and navigate through. Today, Chris bravely reveals everything about being a single dad - the gruelling schedule and work-life balance, the highs and lows, the difficult parts of being a parent and, most importantly, the things he is most thankful and grateful for.

Who this for...

There are not a lot of ways, outlets or resources for single fathers to express themselves and be seen and heard. The purpose of this episode is to show dads just like Chris that they are not alone. For those curious about what life is like for single dads and how fulfilling a role like that is, this episode is for you.

About Dawn Taylor

Dawn Taylor is the professional ass-kicker, hope giver, life strategist, trauma specialist, and all-around badass. Dawn's journey into helping others heal began when she took her personal recovery from the trauma she experienced in her life into her own hands. While at times unconventional, Dawn’s strategic methods have helped hundreds heal from traumas such as issues related to infidelity,  overcoming addiction,  working through PTSD from sexual, emotional, and physical abuse, as well as helping cult survivors thrive. Dawn’s work has empowered entrepreneurs, stay-at-home moms, and CEOs alike to be superheroes in their own lives. Having completed thousands of hours of training from many professional programs, including the Robbins Madanes Training Institute, Dawn’s blunt honesty will challenge your thinking, broaden your awareness, and help you achieve the outstanding results you are worthy of.

Connect with Dawn here at The Taylor Way: Consultation Call | Website | Facebook | Instagram | LinkedIn

Get to know Dawn on a deeper level through her book! Order Here

P.S. I Made It, is a powerful story that grabs you through its lack of pretension and honesty. Every page reveals another layer of curious wonder at both Dawn’s life and the power of hope that moves within each of us. Dawn’s hope is that you use this book as a resource to deal with your struggles. Share it with someone who needs it. We all want to feel like someone understands what it’s like to suffer through something and – come out the other side. She describes her life as “horrifically beautiful and beautifully horrific. 

Guest Bio

Chris Boyle is Founder and CEO of Legacy Financial Group LTD. Also known as the “Business Owner Tax Saver” He has over 16 years experience in the financial services industry including insurance, public and private markets. Through his experience he realized that the financial services industry in Canada needs some disruption. Legacy Financial Group LTD is a company that is changing the experience both clients and advisors have in our industry. This includes increased transparency, compliance shift and work/life balance to name a few. Chris is a father of 3 girls and is a sports fan and loves to cook.

Guest Social Links

Email - [email protected]

Website - www.christopherboyle.net

Instagram - @food_n_finance

Facebook - www.facebook.com/chrisboyleinvestmentsandinsurance

Thanks for listening!

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Views Expressed, Legal and Medical Disclaimer

This podcast (including any/all site pages, blog posts, blog comments, forums, videos, audio recordings, etc.) is not intended to replace the services of a physician, nor does it constitute a doctor-patient relationship. Information is provided for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional medical advice. You should not use the information on this podcast for diagnosing or treating a medical or health condition. If you have or suspect you have an urgent medical problem, promptly contact your professional healthcare provider. Any application of the recommendations in this podcast/website is at the listener/reader's discretion. The views and opinions expressed are those of guests and do not necessarily reflect the opinion or policy of Dawn Taylor, The Taylor Way and or its Associates. The before mentioned are not liable for any direct or indirect claim or loss. 

Transcript

Dawn Taylor

Hey, hey. It is me, your podcast host, Dawn Taylor. And today we don't have an amazing floating head this week. We've had a few floating heads, anonymous guests lately, but today we have Chris Boyle. We, guys, you need to know this guy. He is such an amazing guy. So, we're going to be dealing with the topic of - is single parenting from a dad's perspective, the lack of support in this lovely country of ours, and probably globally for that, but also like the guilt and entrepreneurship and divorce and separation and all of the aspects of that that go into it. But from a dad's perspective, instead of a mom's. So who is Chris? Chris is the founder and CEO of Legacy Financial Group. He is the business owner tax saver. He's been in the industry for over 16 years. He is a dad of three amazing little girls. I met one of them, and she is just the cutest little thing you've ever seen. He's a massive sports fan, loves to cook, and is just a huge supporter of business owners in general roles. So if you want to find him, go check out our show notes. You know that. But let's dive in. Welcome to the show, Chris.

Chris Boyle

Thank you very much for having me, Dawn.

Dawn Taylor

You're welcome. So we were talking one day about being a dad, being a business owner and also being a single parent of three kids, three beautiful little girls, and everything that goes into that. So, where do you want to start? Tell us your story.

Chris Boyle

Yeah, well, I won't go back too far, but I ended up in Edmonton about 2005. I did play high level sports, and that's how I ended up here in the city on scholarship and, as going through my schooling. I actually started in my industry, in the finance industry before I finished schooling and eventually met a girl here in the city and stayed, I'm from southern Alberta, and had a family. And like a lot of people, you learn a lot about yourself and relationships through potentially a long courting period or dating period or marriage period with your significant other, and we had just realized that it didn't make sense anymore, and so we decided to separate and eventually divorce and through our marriage, we had three amazing young girls, beautiful girls and what some of the challenges were, obviously, is you're dealing with this internal aspect of "am I happy? Is it my marriage that's not causing me happy? Is it external forces that are not causing me happy? Is it stuff I'm not doing that's reducing my happiness? Or not there?" And ultimately, if you're not on the same page and not really willing to figure that out, usually it ends in divorce or separation. And that's kind of what happened, and what I wasn't prepared for was the aftermath of that and how that affected both business, parenting scheduling, which is, can be a nightmare at times, trying to coordinate everything.

Dawn Taylor

They're not even teenagers yet.

Chris Boyle

No, they're in extracurricular activities, but not to the point of how crazy I know it can be. So that's a brief, I guess, quick history on where we are.

Dawn Taylor

So, let's dive into that. So, in Canada. Canada right now, this is an article I found from 2018. So, I mean, this is a long time ago. There are 330,000 Canadian families that are headed by single dads with one or more kids under the age of 25, and in 2022, 1.84 million single-parent families. Those are some pretty high numbers and I know one of the things we originally talked about was there's no support and there really isn't a lot of support. So, with your divorce, what is your separation in regards to custody?

Chris Boyle

Yeah. So we're 50-50, and I'll say this, I do have a great co-parenting relationship with my ex.

Dawn Taylor

You do.

Chris Boyle

And our communication regarding the kids is I couldn't have asked for a better situation post-divorce. The challenge really is, and you kind of alluded to it, is that guilt factor, though. And some of that has been portrayed to me from my ex and we've communicated about it, but also my kids. Like, during COVID I was able, because of the flexibility of my job, not work a ton. And so when I was with them, I was with them, and we did stuff together, activities together. It didn't matter if it was Monday at 11:00 a.m. Or if it was Friday at 06:00 p.m.. When I was with them, I was as present as I could be and part of that was that guilt, and what happened was my business suffered, right? Over that year and a half time frame. But I know some of the connections that I built with my girls, I'll forever have that where other people during that time, whether they were in my situation or not, they were gone, and the kids were always around. So, there's pros and cons, I guess, to that. But the big challenge I had was, there was this expectation I felt that was on me when I had my girls. That was my sole purpose and if I was asking for help outside of what I could do, I was either failing them or I was failing other people who expected me to be there all the time.

Dawn Taylor

And let's unpack that for a sec. Who was putting the expectations on you? And do you think that they're different on a man than they are on a woman? Let's just get all controversial all up in here this morning.

Chris Boyle

So, yeah, there's a lot there. I guess the expectations put on me. Some of it was myself because I knew I had the flexibility with my job, but a lot of it was projected from my ex-wife. Now, her and I have had communication and talks about this, but it probably wasn't until at least after a year where I was really starting to be able to dissect what was going on, how I was feeling, and how to try to communicate that back and in a constructive way, I guess would be the best way. Because I know from her end too, she's dealing with some of the same challenges, too, and there's some of that guilt when they're gone from her. She wants to make sure that they're looked after, and she trusts me. There's no issue there but when you've got three young girls and when we first divorced, they were six, four and two.

Dawn Taylor

Oh, just little.

Chris Boyle

Yeah. And so anyone that's been around a two year old and a four year old knows there needs to be pretty constant supervision.

Dawn Taylor

Yes.

Chris Boyle

Or you get situations where they think the white walls are a chalkboard, right?

Dawn Taylor

Yeah.

Chris Boyle

So, I can understand it from that fact, but yeah, there was a lot of pressure I was putting on myself. There was a lot of pressure that was being put on me from outside parties. And it was just really trying to figure out everything on how I was feeling, how to deal with it, how to even communicate with the girls in certain situations. Here's what dad needs from you. So we got creative at times, but it's tough. And ultimately, I'm in a situation where I did have to pay alimony or am paying alimony support and child support and so you still have financial obligations almost more than ever now, because you're almost trying to fund two households, and you've got that pressure and you've got the pressure of trying to co parent three young girls. And, yeah, it's overwhelming. And from our country's standpoint, you're right. I don't think there's enough support from provincial or federal governments, but I don't even know how or if there's tax breaks they could come up with or something like that. But, compound that with our rising inflation costs, compound that with the mental challenge that COVID was, the social challenge. Right? It was tough.

Dawn Taylor

So, do you think even though more than tax breaks? More than that. So, my sister and her husband adopted four kids, and my brother-in-law was a stay at home parent because of their careers. It made way more sense for my sister to work she was a nurse than for him. And I know for him, it was like it was all mommy and me groups. Right? So more than even, like, the taxes and more than any of the stuff that the government's doing. Do you think, as a society, there isn't the same man to man peer support when it comes to being a single parent, when it comes to being alone with your kids? So many of the women in my life that are divorced or separated had kids on their own. There's so much support within each other, right? There's always, like, the playdates, and there's the you take the kids this many days a week, and I'll take them this many days a week, or I just need a break, so can you take them for the weekend? And there's such an intense level of support within moms. There's single mom parenting groups and single mom everything. And, like, I remember hearing from my sister that he would struggle with things like that because he'd show up and he was the only guy in a room with, like, 20 moms and their kids, and he was the only man. And it's looked at different, right? Like, you don't ever think about, I was talking to a friend a little while ago. We were driving past this amazing park and I said, "man, what I wouldn't do to just go sit there and hang out." And he's like, "Yeah, you could. No one will call the cops. But if I go sit there, someone's for sure calling the cops." And I was like, that is such a crazy statement. But it's so true, right? There's such bias. There's so many crazy beliefs on that, that as a single man sitting in a park, there's this massive judgment put on it versus a single woman sitting in a park.

Chris Boyle

Yes.

Dawn Taylor

But that's really known, right? Like, that all ties into this, where it's like, what is the gap? What is that gap, that missing piece that's made it so that men raising kids is seen as something so different than a woman raising kids.

Chris Boyle

Yeah.

Dawn Taylor

And that support. What are your thoughts? What have you experienced?

Chris Boyle

So, my experience on that is a couple of things. So, one you had mentioned, yes, there's tons of mum groups, mum support groups and stuff like that and they're fantastic, and if you get the right mix of women in those groups, it's so positive and so supportive. I've also talked to mums across the board, whether single or divorced or still together, and there's also times where they find that practice extremely draining because of the judgment that they feel from other women in that group, right? If they're not parenting to the level that somebody else in the group,

Dawn Taylor

100% the competition parenting.

Chris Boyle

Where I have found and I've come across a lot of men that are gone through divorce, have children, or have children and might not be the breadwinner in the family, whether it be through clients or friends. And it's much tougher to get them to open up, to be in that environment but once they're in that environment and this is just from my experience and conversations I've had, yeah, just to back up there, I have found that the bonds are almost stronger with the men who come together in that situation because, guys might not want to admit this is they will bring their walls down if they know other people are in the same situation as them and there's less judgment. And the conversations that I've had, especially I've been fortunate enough to meet with some people who are successful entrepreneurs that went through divorce with children five, six years ago. And those conversations were probably some of the deepest and most heart-pouring conversations I've had with anyone because it's a similar conversation that we're able to have, and similar experience, and at no point have I felt judgy towards somebody else on how they're raising their kid. Each person is their own situation, and it was very eye-opening just to have those types of conversations with people and build those, you know, relationships and to see what might be able to come out of it. I like your analogy about, yeah, if a guy's sitting in a park, there's something wrong with it. Ironically enough, as soon as you said that and just the different roles. And if it's reversed, how much that changes the perspective. I did take my girls to the new Barbie movie a couple nights ago and I had heard some stuff about it, you know, and I was very conscious as I'm watching the show, not just from a pure entertainment value. You know, I was thinking, if the roles were reversed in this movie, and men were playing the role of, you know, Barbie and Barbie was playing the role of Ken, it would have been up in arms on the perspective on how men were treated in that movie be compared to if it was, well, reversed.

Dawn Taylor

Oh, interesting.

Chris Boyle

Right? There would have been massive uproar. But, because it was, if anyone's seen the movie, basically derogatory towards men, which I don't have an issue with, but it's that perspective of the patriarchy. It's the perspective of what does society deem acceptable? And for, if a guy wants to go to a park, why can't he go to a park? He's not doing anything wrong. But it's that perspective of why is a man there alone? As opposed to, "Oh, a woman's there reading a book. How lovely. She must not have kids and want to be around kids type thing."

Dawn Taylor

Well, not only that, but is anyone looking to be like, oh, I wonder which kids are that man's? Right? And it is there's such a stigma around that. It's funny because I hear that from you, I haven't seen the movie, but from you, it's like it's derogatory towards men. And I've heard from women it's like, the most empowering movie they've seen in years. And the minute people said that, I was like, oh, no, I'm very intrigued to watch this, because it feels like we can't ever have, I don't know, maybe this is just my perspective on it. We can't ever have one without the other. Right. Like, either we empower women or we empower men. And it's like, what about empowering both? To empower one doesn't mean we have to emasculate the other.

Chris Boyle

Yeah. And they do try to in the movie, they try at the very end to get a sense of that. But, empowerment, I think, should be for all it doesn't matter. Gender, whatever. But once again, I don't have an issue with the movie. It's a piece of art. Directors, writers, they have their own way of telling the story. But, from especially in today's society, if that movie just would have been reversed, it would have received so much uproar. But, it's perspective and men, you generally, we aren't supposed to be emotional. We aren't supposed to be in that type of role. And if you are, kind of where historically, do people feel less of a man or whatever you want to call it because they're in a role that most men males aren't in? And I think that's crazy. There are women out there and in couple of situations where it makes way more sense based on them being the breadwinners and them to provide and men are great parents, too, right?

Dawn Taylor

So, I love that line right there. Like, men are great parents, too. Before we hopped on here today, I was talking to a friend of mine, and I was like, "Yeah, we're cutting up a couple of podcasts today. I was excited to talk to you guys." And we were talking about that, and he goes, even in my chat groups, it's so often that it's like, "Oh, no, sorry. Can't do that. I have to babysit the kids." And he goes and I get mad and I'll call them out every time and be like, "No, you mean you're parenting your kids?" Like, you're not babysitting your kids. You're parenting your kids. A babysitter is a hired person you bring in from outside, right? And what are your thoughts on that language that we use? And do you think it's derogatory to men in a way?

Chris Boyle

Yeah. So I have been guilty of using that verbiage in the past 100%.

Dawn Taylor

Oh. It's ingrained in our society

Chris Boyle

For me, and this was all part of going through everything that I did with the divorce and separation. How was I viewing certain situations in my relationship? How was I viewing certain interactions with my kids? And one of the things that I realized is that term babysitting, I felt was a derogatory term where, for me, you're telling your brain you're having to do something that you don't want to do.

Dawn Taylor

Yeah.

Chris Boyle

I started replacing it consciously and practicing gratitude. I practiced a lot of gratitude, through COVID especially, and everything else. And now when somebody asks, "Hey, do you want to meet us to go out for dinner?" And if I've got the girls, I'll say, "No, I get to hang out with my girls tonight."

Dawn Taylor

Oh, I like that language better.

Chris Boyle

Right? And our brains are easily tricked, as many people don't want to think they are, and starting to conditioning it and then relating that action with being gracious or having gratitude towards that act. So, I do think it's derogatory and we get caught up in it. But, I've just focused on changing that verbiage and changing how I perceive that act of spending time with my girls. But, I was also extremely gracious knowing that my situation I had the girls. When I'd have the girls, I would be as present as I could with the girls.

Dawn Taylor

Yeah. So what is the balance that you have found being a dad, being with these three beautiful little girls, but also as a business owner and an entrepreneur? It is very different in many ways, right? Because I feel like if you had the quote-unquote job that you had to go to Monday to Friday, nine to five, it would be seen as incredibly different because it would just be an expected thing. Like, of course the kids go to daycare, of course the kids go to a babysitter. Of course that's what happens. And you go to work and that's how you pay the bills. Done. That is this very tangible thing that makes sense to people. But when as a business owner, and you manage your own calendar and you manage your own schedule, and you are very successful, right? But that can take more hours and that can take more time or help you buy back your hours and time, right? And this is something that comes up with a lot of entrepreneurs. It's just because I work from home or just because I manage my own calendar doesn't mean I don't have a job the same as you.

Chris Boyle

Yeah.

Dawn Taylor

Right? How have you worked on the balance of that and figuring out like, "No, it's okay. Even the weeks that I have the girls, I still have to work."

Chris Boyle

Yeah. I think the best and shortest answer is I don't have a freaking clue yet. And it's a process. A couple of things. There's some people that have asked me, "Why don't you just hire childcare?" Well, if anyone has ever looked to see how much it would cost for three girls for daycare during the summer months, it's almost two grand a month for full time. It's insane. And based on my income, I don't qualify for any--

Dawn Taylor

Subsidies and stuff.

Chris Boyle

And then on top of that, I've got alimony and spousal support that I'm paying. So there's a time frame until that's done where I have to be creative. During summer, it's been really tough. One of the things I have done is fully relocated my office to my house and essentially created an office in my bedroom because it's the only door I can lock in the entire house. I've been training the girls to know when I'm in the room with the door locked, I'm working. If it's an emergency, you, obviously you can come. So that's one aspect. My youngest, Peyton, she's five, she's going into kindergarten. So that's going to give some reprieve, I guess. Yeah. But she's been in preschool the last two years. And to give you an idea, on a typical day, from September to June, when I've got the girls, you know, we wake up around seven, get ready, pack lunches. I've got the girls actually trained where pack their own lunches with supervision, so they're not putting just straight candy. So, that deals with some of the duties I would have. At 8:30, I drop off the two girls at their school and I drive another 15 minutes, drop Peyton off at nine. And then I have to pick Peyton back up at 11:15, drive back home, usually make her lunch, and then between, depending on the day, 2:30 and three, I pick up the other two girls. So in terms of trying to allocate time towards projects, meetings, it's so chopped up. It's tough, and so what used to do is drop Peyton off, go to the gym for an hour, go to the coffee shop and do emails, some administrative type duties, pick Peyton up, make her lunch, and then if I can even attempt to get, like, a Zoom meeting in, do that and then pick up the girls, and then it's full parenting time. That's just reality right now. And so, really trying to coordinate as many meetings as I can on days I don't have them, and days I do have them focus more on tasks that I can do. With them around, where I know I'm going to get interrupted every 15 minutes, 20 minutes, and just have to work with it. But, I know a lot of other families out there, they're struggling, they're taking on second jobs right now to deal with inflation, rising costs. I know it's a struggle. I'm just fortunate enough where I can at least do it and come home and be around them and not have to be away from them. But, yeah, if I ever find that perfect balance and I can replicate it or have other people replicate it, I won't have to work another day in my life.

Dawn Taylor

Right?

Chris Boyle

A lot of money. But, yeah, it's an ongoing challenge and I don't know, it's trying to find what works for my situation, and it's constantly ongoing.

Dawn Taylor

It's part of that, releasing so many expectations of what we thought life was going to look like, what life should look like, what, it means as a dad, as the caregiver, the provider, the worker, right? There's so much around that business growth. I know that's a struggle, especially as entrepreneurs and I see it all the time with clients, is looking at all the other entrepreneurs around you or the other business owners around you. They're the people in our industries and how fast they're building their business or how, what they're doing, and I don't know if it's ego or just having to really sit back and be like, you know what? I need to give myself some grace right now to know that, “You know what? Maybe this year isn't going to be the year I double business. Maybe this year isn't going to be the year that I land all the biggest contracts and I do all those things.” And that's okay, because this is the year that I spent a lot of time with my kids.

Chris Boyle

Yeah, I think there's some of that. There's some of that, where my mental, I guess, thought process really changed before, and I'll be fully open on this. But before going through my divorce, it was, we have to have that big house, we have to have that nice vehicle, the keeping up with the Joneses thing, right? The materialistic aspects. 
 

Dawn Taylor

Huge. right? 

Chris Boyle

And I've talked about this, written about this on some of my blogs, talked about with clients. Like, in Canada, we are built to fail in terms of an individual person based on how much marketing has thrown down our throats, how easy it is to get credit and pay 19% interest but for somebody who's got a really good business idea that's driven, for them to get a business loan at 18 or 25 is almost impossible. I think credit card debt to go spending on crap at 18. So, we're constantly inundated by, I need that next shiny toy, or stuff like that. I was guilty of that. That’s something, starting to make good income, and then going through the divorce and realizing. You know, we need money, we need stuff to pay the bills to survive. But there's so much other aspects that are more important. And for me, going through that process was my mental health. It was happiness. It was, I'm going to say living more, and what I mean by living more is truly being present in the experiences I was having. Instead of just going on a trip or going to an event or concert where you think you're releasing from your day-to-day life, but you're not present, your mind's still elsewhere. And so those were some aspects I really tried, you know, focusing on the perception of the all-American or all-Canadian family and not living within that was never actually a thought for me. It wasn't “I'm not the traditional family. Something's wrong with me.” That was never there. And I was very fortunate to grow up in a household where my parents are still in love with each other. They're mushy at times. Still, they're celebrating their 45th wedding anniversary. 

Dawn Taylor

Amazing.

Chris Boyle

Grew up in a very positive household. I think maybe some of the aspects on our separation-slash-time frame from when things were not good to when things officially ended, that might have drug on a little bit, mainly because of the kids. I don't know if I would say it was because of the family concept but in that situation, I was still able to be around my girls 100% of the time, even though other aspects of family life weren't great. 
 

Dawn Taylor

Yeah. So for somebody else going through this, what do you recommend for them? 

Chris Boyle

First thing is try to be as self conscious as possible on what you're going through, what you're feeling and learn, even if it’s journaling, writing stuff, on how you're feeling and what aspects are making you feel a certain way that you can self reflect on. And then talk to somebody, whether it's counselor, hopefully a counselor, because sometimes friends have best interest in mind, but usually it's a biased view, or always, they put in their own experiences in their advice. So that would be one thing, and then the other is really practice gratitude. Even if it's little stuff. There's one book that I read, I think it's called The Happiness Effect. I can get it somewhere. I'll get you to send me the link for that so we can put it in the show notes for people.

Chris Boyle

Sure. And it was a really good book that started getting you to do little things. Um, even just 15 minutes walk a day, you know, taking pictures of stuff that makes you smile and then reflecting on it through a journal or digital aspect. So that was something that really helps. And then take time to be by yourself, like when you are alone. I know some people that are single, the first thing they want to do is get back out in the dating scene. And the nightmare that that is.

Dawn Taylor

So easy right now. 

Chris Boyle

It’s really taking that time and being comfortable with yourself and take that time to work on yourself. One of the best things I did is me and a buddy, we went down to Mexico for ten days, and this was a year and a half after I fully separated and stuff like that. And it was just nice to get away. Plus, that was kind of right near the end of COVID and stuff like that. Um, and just appreciating a trip like that. Being with a friend that supported me, not in terms of supported me, just knew what I was going through was just there and just we ended up meeting about five couples from all over North America where we were down there, and we still keep contact with all of them. We're planning another trip together as a group. So, just kind of the memories, the people I met and stuff like that was great thing. So, yeah, self-reflect, practice gratitude and take a trip.

Dawn Taylor

Spend some time alone. Spend some time alone figuring out what you really want and what you want to do moving forward. Is there, raising your daughters, what is it you really want to instill in them? Because I often will talk to people about, especially when going through a divorce or in building business or doing different things, is there's kind of two sides to it? Often people are like, “No, my kids need 100% of my time and my attention. And that's what I need them to see is that they're my number one.” And other people are like, “No, I really want my kids to see what it means to work hard and to build a business and to see that. I want my kids to see that in me and I'm going to explain that to them and have them incorporated in it.” What is your mindset on that and what is it you want to instill in your kids? 
 

Chris Boyle

Yeah, so the first part, it's finding that balance again and that's tough.  Aria is nine, she's my oldest, and she can definitely comprehend stuff. Like I can have pretty deep conversations with her. And she was the one that came up to me a couple weeks ago where I was on the computer working, kids are home. And she's like, “Daddy, when are you going to spend time with us?” And so I had to sit down with her and have a conversation and “This is what Daddy needs to do to pay for where we live. If you want to do extracurricular stuff, we need money to do that.” And so she understood to a certain degree. But then there's that emotional, logical thing that for a nine year old that's going through probably some hormonal changes and everything else. You know, we're here. You're here. We want you to spend time with us, not do what you need to do. 
 

Dawn Taylor

Totally. 

Chris Boyle

So there's that. But I did have the conversation with her, too, is “I want you guys to work hard. I want you guys to not be dependent on anyone. And there's no sexism here, but whether it's a guy or a girl or me or your mom, you guys need to learn how to be self sufficient. And part of that is working hard and being passionate about something.” So to answer your second question, what do I want to instill in my girls? Follow their passion. And we're in a world where if you have a passion, you can find a way to make a living from it. Doesn't matter what it is. There's a way you can do it. Um, so, you know, there's a ton of other stuff, but at the end of the day, if they're following what they really want, and it's something that they truly are passionate about. There's a certain level of happiness that they carry with them, as opposed to, like many people, you probably let something that you really wanted to chase off to the side because of other commitments or society and how it perceives you. If you were to chase that compared to what you should be doing or what society as a whole- 

Dawn Taylor

The should be’s.
 

Chris Boyle 

Yeah, that would be the short, quick answer, I guess, on that. 
 

Dawn Taylor

Is there any support, short of government tax and all that, right? Wherever you're listening to this, because I know where people are from, I don't think there's a government out there that isn't a Gong Show when it comes to that or that just isn't a Gong Show in general right now. Are there any supports that you think need to be introduced or thought of or as friends, as siblings, as a society that we could give to dads that would step it up a little bit. That would help. I mean, it could be a reaction. It could be a response to something. It could be stepping in to help the babysitter invite you into a parent group. What kind of supports would you like to see or do you think need to happen? 

Chris Boyle

Yeah, well, just to quickly touch on the government stuff, I do think and this is across all boards this isn't just for divorced dads, but mental health access should be free in Canada. I think that we've got enough resource if it's done effectively and efficiently because we waste so much dollars, especially on the medical side of things, from a government standpoint. But that's another conversation for another whole-
 

Dawn Taylor

Another podcast. 
 

Chris Boyle

In terms of support from society, guys might not want to hear this, but we have to take a lot of ownership ourselves first. I think we have to be the ones to change the stereotype and not care what society thinks and do what we know is best for us and to find like-minded people that we want to associate with on that front and learn from. If you're a family member of somebody going through a situation like this, I'm in a unique situation where I do all the cooking, I cook. But, there are a lot of men who don't know how to turn on a stove if they've been with a wife that does all the cooking. So don't ask. Just show up with food and stay here. That's one thing I think that could help a lot of guys in that situation. The second, and I'm fortunate I do have this situation, I've got aunts, not my aunts, but aunts of the kids, my grandparents. They'll ask if the kids want to have a sleepover or one of them has a sleepover. 

Dawn Taylor

Oh, nice.
 

Chris Boyle

That just alleviates some of the, I guess pressure, but also gives the kids a different experience.. Outside of that is just be positive. Like, have a positive aura. I know it's easy to be biased in a situation like this where one party is obviously closely tied to the man or the woman through a divorce or separation. Don't bash the other party because your kids? They're around that they hear that and to just make sure that they're in a positive surrounding. And at the end of the day, you're tied to your partner for the rest of your life whether you're married to them or not. And so really try rebuilding that friendship. 
 

Dawn Taylor

That is a whole conversation in and of itself right there. I work with kids ages twelve and up. But, right now, especially a lot of, like, the 16 to 25 year olds. And I don't think parents understand how much damage it does when you badmouth the other parent, when you put them down, when you badmouth them, when you make snide remarks, when you're like, “Oh, of course I didn't do that.” All of those, all of those little bitey remarks are so hard on your kids.

Chris Boyle

Because they don't know what to do, how to feel. Do they need to start picking aside? They go through so much now with everything from social media to everything else going on in the world. Not another thing that they need to have to deal with or have to emotionally process. 
 

Dawn Taylor

The amount of people that grew up feeling guilty for loving someone, guilty for loving a parent, guilty for loving a stepparent, guilty for connecting to someone else. I think if anyone ever did study on that, it would blow people's minds. Yeah. So, kudos to you for that, seriously. And for working so hard at that, is to have that amazing relationship with your ex. 

Chris Boyle

Don't get me wrong, it's not just easy. It's not like,”Okay, let's divorce. Let's be best friends.” 

Dawn Taylor

No, not at all. 

Chris Boyle

You put time in, you have to sacrifice. Sometimes you bite your tongue, but it's a long game. It's knowing the girls’ experience on how slight adjustments can change everything. 
 

Dawn Taylor

I love that. Chris, thank you so much for hanging out with us today, for doing this podcast, for being so vulnerable and open about this. I think it's a topic that needs to be talked about. I think that we need to stop judging the men in the park. Okay? They're not all bad. They might be there to read, too.

Chris Boyle

Yeah.

Dawn Taylor

Right? But also to give yourself the grace and to give yourself the understanding of like, “Hey, you know what? It might be the impossible thing to find that perfect balance. But your girls will know how much you love them, how much you care for them, the connections. I've always said this, and I remember this even growing up, it's just never about quantity, right? It's quality.
 

Chris Boyle

Yeah. And I got three of them. One of them is probably going to stick around and look after me when I'm old, so I've at least got some one in three chance.

Dawn Taylor

That's right. That is awesome. I love that so much. Thank you for hanging out with us and for the listeners. I hope that you heard something different today, something shifted in you. Maybe a perspective was shifted a little bit on what it is like. And if you are a single dad and you are needing some support, or if you're looking for a grant or for business stuff, I know Chris does all kinds of crazy cool stuff through his company. So check out the show notes at TheTaylorWay.ca, which is where you can find all of his contact information, also linked to the book on “The Happiness Effect” So we can share that with you. But please join us again in two weeks for another topic. And don't forget to check out those show notes. Learn more about Chris. Subscribe now on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. And if you love the show, leave a rating and review. See you guys in a couple of weeks.

All her life, Christina Monai has found her identity in her wifehood and motherhood. However, her world changed forever when she went through a divorce. Through the trials she went through in this difficult time, she discovered more about herself and her place in the world. Today’s episode of the Taylor Way Talks is a look at the perspective of a single mom and how it’s never too late to find yourself and move on to bigger, better chapters in your life after walking through the fire for the things and people you love the most.

Content Warning: 

In this episode, we discuss some topics that listeners may find difficult such as divorce.
 

Why you would want to listen to this episode

All her life, Christina Monai has found her identity in her wifehood and motherhood. However, her world changed forever when she went through a divorce. Through the trials she went through in this difficult time, she discovered more about herself and her place in the world. Today’s episode of the Taylor Way Talks is a look at the perspective of a single mom and how it’s never too late to find yourself and move on to bigger, better chapters in your life after walking through the fire for the things and people you love the most.

Who this for...

This episode is for people who have gone through a divorce and are struggling or have struggled to raise children all on their own, specifically single mothers. The topic in today’s episode is for those who not only seek a way to find their own light in the darkness but also for those who seek community and friendship when going through such dark times. 

About Dawn Taylor

Dawn Taylor is the professional ass-kicker, hope giver, life strategist, trauma specialist, and all-around badass. Dawn's journey into helping others heal began when she took her personal recovery from the trauma she experienced in her life into her own hands. While at times unconventional, Dawn’s strategic methods have helped hundreds heal from traumas such as issues related to infidelity,  overcoming addiction,  working through PTSD from sexual, emotional, and physical abuse, as well as helping cult survivors thrive. Dawn’s work has empowered entrepreneurs, stay-at-home moms, and CEOs alike to be superheroes in their own lives. Having completed thousands of hours of training from many professional programs, including the Robbins Madanes Training Institute, Dawn’s blunt honesty will challenge your thinking, broaden your awareness, and help you achieve the outstanding results you are worthy of.

Connect with Dawn here at The Taylor Way: Consultation Call | Website | Facebook | Instagram | LinkedIn

Get to know Dawn on a deeper level through her book! Order Here

P.S. I Made It, is a powerful story that grabs you through its lack of pretension and honesty. Every page reveals another layer of curious wonder at both Dawn’s life and the power of hope that moves within each of us. Dawn’s hope is that you use this book as a resource to deal with your struggles. Share it with someone who needs it. We all want to feel like someone understands what it’s like to suffer through something and – come out the other side. She describes her life as “horrifically beautiful and beautifully horrific. 

Guest Bio

Christina is a videographer by day and a single mom of two by night. She's very passionate about her work and helping business owners share the story of their business with the world! She's also a dedicated mother and is so unbelievably thankful for her village!

Guest Social Links

Instagram - www.instagram.com/lifesongfilms

Facebook - www.facebook.com/lifesongfilms

LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/christina-monai/

Thanks for listening!

Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!

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Views Expressed, Legal and Medical Disclaimer

This podcast (including any/all site pages, blog posts, blog comments, forums, videos, audio recordings, etc.) is not intended to replace the services of a physician, nor does it constitute a doctor-patient relationship. Information is provided for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional medical advice. You should not use the information on this podcast for diagnosing or treating a medical or health condition. If you have or suspect you have an urgent medical problem, promptly contact your professional healthcare provider. Any application of the recommendations in this podcast/website is at the listener/reader's discretion. The views and opinions expressed are those of guests and do not necessarily reflect the opinion or policy of Dawn Taylor, The Taylor Way and or its Associates. The before mentioned are not liable for any direct or indirect claim, loss.
 

Transcript

Dawn Taylor

I am your host, Dawn Taylor, and today we are talking to the amazing Christina. So, topic today, when your life shifts massively, I'm talking like 180 degrees and all control feels lost, how do you get it back? How do you actually walk through that journey? Before we get started, I want to tell you a little bit about our guest today so that you get to be as excited as I am. Christina is the owner of Life Song Films. She's a videographer by day, a single mom of two by night. She's very passionate about her work and helping business owners share their stories. She's also a dedicated mom. She has an incredible village. Pretty sure, if I remember correctly. She also rides a motorbike, which always discerns, like, a little extra respect on my part, because I think that that's awesome. But, I also am honored and proud to call her a friend. So, I just want to say welcome to the show, Christina.

Christina Monai

Thank you. Thank you so much, and actually, I think we're up to a good start because I'm already tearing up. So, that was a beautiful intro. Thank you.

Dawn Taylor

You're welcome. So when we were first talking about you coming on the podcast, one of the things we discussed was a lot of people go through divorce. A lot of people go through shifts in life. A lot of people go through all of these things, but no one talks about it. A lot of people don't talk about it. And you ran into a situation where your life didn't just shift like, your life, took like a 90 degree or 180 degree turn suddenly. And really like, we're going to just dive right in. Let's talk about the day that your life shifted really hard.

Christina Monai

Yes. It was funny when you were talking about like a 90 degree shift in a 180. I'm pretty sure it was 360 at least three or four times in that first little while there. But, it started after a family dinner on Sunday night after everyone had gone home. And I sensed something wasn't right. Men and women all have intuition, but I think women have a little more of it. We just we know we know when something is off or wrong. So I asked, "What's going on?" And my then-husband said, "I don't think I'm in love with you anymore." And my stomach just kind of fell to the floor. And I thought "What?" Whatever. I was expecting him to say, it certainly was not that. And we had a very serious conversation about that. And, he'd gotten to a place where he didn't want to try anymore and I didn't realize he was that far in that thought process, and we had been in counseling to get things on track. Our marriage was not perfect by any means, but we recognized we need to work on things and I thought we were progressing forward with that. And so when that came about, it really shook my world. It absolutely did. But, not totally, because I still had the thought of, "Oh, we'll work through this because we have before, we'll continue to do that." But over the course of the next few days, it became apparent he was not in that same headspace as me. And we had another session with our counselor. Um, we had a session. I think it was joint first. I know he had a solo session, and he came back from that and he came upstairs and he sat down beside me, started to cry, and he said, "I want a separation divorce." And that's when my world just shattered. It did, because he was my first boyfriend, my first kiss, my first love, my first everything. I never dated anybody before him.

Dawn Taylor

Wow.

Christina Monai

And in my mind, we were on track to just go through life together. And to hear that just and I was surprised at the time because I've shared the story before, but I don't share that moment very often. And even now, talking about it, I can feel my eyes are kind of tearing up a little bit because it was such a massive event, right. It's just the person that you think you're going to go through life with that you love so much, and they're not giving that back to you. And I'd never gone through that before. I'd never gone through the process of a breakup and so to be faced with a breakup, my very first breakup was the end of my marriage was pretty earth shattering. It was devastating.

Dawn Taylor

Jarring. How long have you guys been together at that point?

Christina Monai

So we had been together for almost 16 years and married for almost twelve. So I had met him, started dating him when I was 19. And so it was a long time. It was almost getting close to half my life I'd been with him, you know, so to have that go, what hit me first and looking back on it now, I realized I couldn't identify it at the time, but it was anger. And I'd never been angry like that at him before, and it scared me a bit, and so what I did in the moment, I pushed it down and I didn't yell. I didn't let the anger out. I was just very calm, and I kept everything inside. And it was this feeling of, "You are not safe anymore. You are not safe to show my emotions to. You are not safe to share things with." And so in that moment, it was that feeling of my heart closing up a bitt, and that for me, being a heart-centered person, that actually really hurt. That really hurt to have that, because I feel things so deeply, and to feel that was just, oh, I'm tearing up remembering that, because that was such a dark day, and I'd gone through some dark days before. I experienced miscarriage in my marriage and gone through the loss of more than one baby. And so those were dark days. But that moment in particular, that was my darkest. That was my darkest, because the person I thought was going to fight the battle of life with me was putting down his shield and his sword and saying, "No, you're out here by yourself now." And that was super scary. So there was anger. There was fear. There was a lot of fear. Oh, man, so much fear. Because at that point, I'd been a stay at home mom mostly. I'd worked a little bit, but I hadn't worked a lot. And so having been a stay at home mom, it's, what am I going to do now? I had no idea what I was going to do. I had no idea I was going to live where I was going to live. Like, everything just was so up in the air. And for someone who needs to feel grounded and safe and secure. That's very important to me, that feeling of just basically being like I was tossed out on a cliff and there was nothing below me, there was nothing around me. And it was like I was trying to grab onto something. And then my next thought was of my kids, um, because I knew what this would do to them. And at the time, my daughter was about seven and my son was about three or four, and they were old enough they were old enough to know what it was going to be like to have mom and dad together and then have mom and dad apart. And so, that was my thought at the time, was, "What are we going to tell the kids? I don't know how I'm going to do this." And going through that part of me was, and looking back on it, you always look back with 2020, right? And even now, when I'm looking back on that moment, I'm seeing things a little differently because it's been about four years since it happened. So, even today, looking back on it, I'm recognizing new things, which is actually kind of interesting to look back and and think, "Oh, yeah, that was what that feeling was." And it was fear for them. It was fear for my kids as to how they were going to be. So really, in that moment, I was realizing I was going to have to grieve the loss of this relationship and this friendship along with my kids. And that was something that scared the hell out of me, because I didn't know how I was going to do that. I didn't know how I was going to do that. And so over the course of the next week or so, he asked me if that night, after he told me he wanted a separation divorce, he asked me if I wanted him to leave. And I said, "Yeah, I think that would be a good idea."

Dawn Taylor

Great. You know how often I hear this? "Oh, yeah, I want a divorce. Do you want me to leave?"

Christina Monai

"Yeah, you actually already left." And you know what? It's funny, because I was very much a people pleaser back then. And even now, looking back, I'm really proud of past me for being like, "No." That was like the start of me. Speaking up and standing up and saying, "No, I'm not okay with this." And, so he left for about a week, and he stayed with a friend, and we told the kids that this friend needed dad for a bit, and so dad was going to go stay there for a while. And then he came back and I told him, I said, "You're going to tell the kids. I'll be there, and I'll be there with them, but you're going to be the one to tell them." And we actually met with a counselor, the same counselor, marriage counselor we've been working with to figure out how we were going to do this. And she said to tell the kids that mom and dad can't be together anymore. And. to not place blame and not say, well, dad is the one who wanted this. That was very hard for me that was very hard for me to do, because after he told them, obviously that was the second

moment that just kind of broke me a little bit, was seeing how it affected them. And I remember my son seemed to kind of take it in. I chuckle a bit because he seemed to take it in, and it was like, "Okay, can I go play now?"

Dawn Taylor

Amazing.

Christina Monai

So, for that, I was grateful. But my daughter had a really tough time, very tough time. She was really not okay. And after we answered a few of her questions, she went upstairs as well. And then he said, "Okay, well, I'm going to go." And, away he went, and so I stayed, and I'm talking with the kids about it. But that was one of the hardest things I have ever had to go through, and that includes losing my unborn babies. That was the most difficult thing I had to go through because it's been continuous. And just in the last year, things have really started to settle down. So that was about three years of processing and healing and working through that and my kids, too. And trying, that's the thing. Trying to heal and process at the same time as your kids. Good Lord, if there are more people out there who are doing that and you're listening to this, I see you. It's one of the hardest things you'll go through. Exactly. And even when you're processing grief with family, it's a bit different when you're a parent, because you have this perception in your brain that you need to be the strong one, and you need to be the one who is carrying the weight and making it okay, and mom doesn't break. Right? There's this perception. And I think that's actually a sideline of something we don't talk about, is that it's okay for parents to cry in front of their kids. It's okay for parents to share emotions with their kids. It's okay for parents to say, "Look, I'm hurting, I'm sad, I'm upset, I'm angry. Nothing to do with you guys. But I'm feeling these feelings, and I'm crying and I'm upset, and it's okay." And I think I had a friend tell me that because I was thinking I had to be the strong person. I had to just shut it off and hide my crying and all of that. And I actually I'm so grateful to this friend who told me that because I think that's what really helped my kids heal was because I made it okay for them to feel what they were feeling because they saw mom dealing with it. And it is okay.

Dawn Taylor

So let's just pause there for a second. I say this all the time. Our kids today don't know how to grieve. They don't know how to heal. They don't know how to process emotions. And I don't care if I get canceled over this. It is because parents is because adults. It is because we are so busy having the glass of wine to get through the moment, bottling up the emotions, going out and doing all of our grieving outside of the home, or not actually doing any healing work ourselves, that our kids don't ever actually see it. They need to understand that, for example, like, if you lose your job, you're allowed to grieve, you're allowed to be upset, you're allowed to be angry, and then how do you overcome that?

Christina Monai

Exactly

Dawn Taylor

Right? The grieving is hard. How do you overcome that? But I also want to just backtrack a second and say, thank you for being so vulnerable and honest on how hard it was because one of the things that I see all the time is almost this weird celebration of divorce, where it's like, "Oh, it's going to feel so good, it's going to be so amazing." And, yes, sometimes when it's a very toxic environment or you're married to a narcissist or there are a lot of very damaging things going on in the household, yes, sometimes you really need to focus on that. But it doesn't matter. At the end of the day, something died. There is a grieving process that has to happen and not everybody just wants to go out and burn the dress and celebrate the end of it. And it's okay. You'll get someone better and it's okay because it's going to be okay.

Christina Monai

That phrase, just, that you'll find someone better or best. No, that's probably one of the worst things you can say to somebody going through a depression unless they are like, I know, right? It annoys me a bit because even those, like you said, who are okay with it and they're celebrating it sure, okay, then absolutely. Read that vibe. But to come in when someone is grieving and you can tell that they are having a tough time with it, don't say stuff like that because it's not just grieving the loss of the marriage, you're grieving the loss of a friendship at that point because you don't know what's going to happen. In my situation, I'm civil with my ex and we've now come to a place where we can co-parent fairly civilly and calmly, but the friendship is not there. It's gone. And I know that's because of me and I own that because I am not in a place where I can do that yet. There's still healing that I need to do. And I don't know if I'll ever get there, but to tell someone, "Oh, you'll find someone better, please don't." I'll just say that right now. Please don't say that to somebody unless you are 100,000% sure that they are celebrating it themselves. Because like you said, there are situations, sure, absolutely celebrated. But for the most part, it is difficult, and even now it's difficult for the person who ends it. And it's taken me a long time to be able to say that because I carried so much anger and so much frustration and sadness and you carry that grief, right? And it was mostly anger, and that's a feeling I'm not used to feeling. I'm really not used to feeling that and so to feel that, especially towards someone that I was so close with and I had given my heart to in that way, it's taken me a while to say that, but I know it was not an easy decision for him to make. It wasn't, and I know that.

Dawn Taylor

And even just saying that and owning that, right, like. so as a trauma specialist right? Like, I work with people all the time that are walking through divorce. They're wanting to get divorced or dealing with this, and it's never an easy decision, ever, on either side. And it doesn't matter how toxic the relationship is. It doesn't matter how damaging it is. It doesn't mean it's an easy decision. Right?

Christina Monai

Yeah.

Dawn Taylor

It's not an easy decision to get there. So, stay at home mom. And what year was this? What year did this all go down? 2019.

Christina Monai

This was 2019. Yeah. And I had at that point, I was just starting my business that year as well.

Dawn Taylor

Yeah. So you're just starting a business with two small children, which, I mean, obviously is so easy to do. If you did not hear my sarcasm, rewind and hear it again. You already have all that going on, right. You're counting on the support of your spouse, and not just financially, emotionally, with tasks around the house, with caring for the kids, with being the emotional support. Like all of the things right? Like the things we just naturally put on a partner, right? Or the compromise of what we've decided as a couple. But then he kind of peaced out for a while.

Christina Monai

Yeah, and there's been some debate between the two of us as to what actually occurred during that period. So he feels that I kept the kids from him, and from where I was standing, he did peace out. And so, there are two perspectives there for sure. And obviously the truth is somewhere in the middle. But I was going to say from where I am right, sure. What were you going to say?

Dawn Taylor

I was going to say there's always, like, three sides to every story. Right. His, hers, and the truth. Exactly. And here's the caveat to that, is what our perspective was and what we lived is actually our truth.

Christina Monai

Yeah, that is true. The truth that I lived was that he was gone. And it was very difficult for both me and the kids to figure that out, you know, to try and figure out a new normal. And, again, it was part of that. I'm processing the same time as my kids and I'm trying to figure out a new way of being, and there were many times where I would drop the kids off at school and I would get them to school and get them off, get back in the car and the minute I got out of the parking lot, I made sure I had my sunglasses on and I just cried the whole way home because I'd been holding it in all morning and I didn't want the kids to see that. So, there were times where I didn't share my emotions or show my emotions in front of the kids because I knew it was okay to share some of it, but I did not want it to turn into them being in an emotional crutch for mum because I'm definitely not okay with that at all. No. And that was that fine line of trying to figure that out, trying to figure out that balance of what is okay to share and okay, I need to go to somebody else to talk about this. So, I ended up working out a system with the kids where when they would ask me, I would just share what I was feeling. So, "I'm feeling really sad today. My heart is hurting today. I'm having a tough time with being there for you guys." And that, so I tried to keep it very narrow in scope, and I made a very conscious decision to not say anything negative about their dad to them because that is a path I did not want to go down and I did not want to damage their relationship with their dad in any way. As they've gotten older, it's been a little easier to be a little more honest about the situation because they are older, they understand a little more about what's going on, about dynamics between people. So, again, there's that fine line of, I will never say anything negative about their dad to them. I will acknowledge a situation, and I'm sure he does the same. There's been times where I've forgotten to send things or I haven't checked in when I've said, I'm going to check in. So, those things I own. But you acknowledge the reality of the situation. "Oh, yeah, you're right. Mom didn't check in or Dad didn't check in. I'm sure there's a good reason for it and how can I help support you?" was basically how I chose to handle that.

Dawn Taylor

You know, what I've often said to people is, your kids will figure out the other parent's true colors. It might be when they're a teenager. It might be when they're an adult. It's not your job to make your kids see that other side.

Christina Monai

No, it's not. And it's gotten a lot better since the divorce. I will say he's become a very good dad, and he was a good dad before to the kids. But over the last few years, he has done some work on himself, which I'm very grateful for, and I'm very glad that he did, from what the kids have told me. And I hear very good things about how the dynamic is between them now, and I'm very glad for that. And it was one of those things where I actually went through some fear of, well, "What if they like being at their dad's better than mine?" And that's where they want to be all the time and I lose my kids. That was a spiral thought pattern that I went down more than once. More than once. And that is a scary thought path to go down, by the way, if you have ever gone down that path. Oh, my goodness. It is scary AF to think that, because in that process, you've lost someone. And it's not the same as losing someone to death, because that person is still in your life, they are still around and especially if you have to be right. If you have to be in a co-parenting situation as well, you have to see this person regularly and I had to go through the experience twice over of him having a new partner and that was incredibly difficult to go through, and to go through that within six months after the divorce happened, the separation happened. Just really, it really affected my self-worth. And I'm sad to say that now, because your worth shouldn't be dependent on someone else, and I know that now, but at the time, oh, my goodness, there were so many thoughts of "Why was I not good enough? Why wasn't I good enough? Why wasn't I worth fighting for? Why wasn't our marriage worth fighting for?" Right? And all those thoughts just play around in your brain, and there's nobody there to tell you otherwise unless you reach out to someone. Right? And so that felt isolating sometimes. Very isolating,

Dawn Taylor

Absolutely. So everything feels like it's falling apart. Everything is chaotic. What was one of your big first steps to build yourself back up again?

Christina Monai

I reached out to family and friends. That was the biggest thing, was recognizing, I don't know where the thought came from, but immediately in my brain, it was, "I need to talk to this person. I need to talk to this person. I need to talk to this person." And a few of the people were mums who had gone through divorce and who had gone through separation. And I immediately started reaching out to those who I knew, and it occurred to me at the time that I didn't know very many single moms. The majority of my group of friends were married and that felt very isolating and I'm thinking, "I don't know what I'm going do here, because I don't feel like there's much solidarity or understanding of what I'm going through." But I will say for the people that I did have in my life at the time and some who are still in my life, the best way I can describe it is that I felt like I was alone by myself in the middle of the ocean. This giant, black, unforgiving ocean. And all of a sudden, this life raft just came up from underneath me and just picked me up and just held me and it was all the people that I was friends with, family with, all of it. My soccer team at the time, they kept me up. Like, everybody. Everybody came in. And that's the best way I can describe how that felt was just this appeared up out of the water and just gently held me up while I figured things out.

Dawn Taylor

Do you think that that's one of the struggles in our, just even in our society in general right now, is we often think we're the only one going through what we're going through, right? But there's also the ego piece of it where there's shame attached to it, where we don't want to actually admit that we could be hurting or that something went wrong or that we're struggling or any of those things. So, we don't ever ask for help. When, really, we are surrounded by people that would be more than willing. Right? And you didn't say that one person was your life raft. It was a group of people that all were a small piece of that life raft that all banded together, that lifted you up out of the water, right? Do you think that that's where our ego, our ego, our pride, whatever we want to cry gets involved, and then that's what ends up really biting us in the ass? Because it's like, "No, I actually need support and need help right now, and I don't know how to ask for it. But I also don't want to admit that maybe something is wrong."

Christina Monai

I 100% agree. I think that's one of the very big stigmas of divorce still. It was a very big stigma when our parents’ generation even more so, the generation before, it's a little more, I don't want to say accepted, now. It's not a surprise now. And maybe that's just because I'm in that world.

Dawn Taylor

No, it's actually just not a surprise. Incredibly, sadly common.

Christina Monai

Yeah, it is becoming more common, which maybe isn't a bad thing. I know that may be controversial to say, but I think there's more of an understanding that it's not okay to remain in unhealthy relationships. There's something to be said for this is really not working, and it is hurting you, it is hurting me. And maybe this needs to be something that we need to let go, because it is unhealthy. And, I think that is where my ex-husband was, where his thinking was and in a small way, I'm grateful to him for that because I think of where I am now and where I was when I was married. If I was still married, I would still be dying slowly. And I recognize that now. I was dying slowly in that marriage, and I'm pretty sure he was too, you know? So, in order to be able to be healthy and to be whole. Maybe it's not a bad thing and that's probably super controversial, and I know there's probably people who don't agree with it, and I am very much one of those people who is when you're in a relationship, when you're in a marriage, you stand and you fight for that like there is no tomorrow and you don't put down your sword. However, I've been through the situation where, you know what, I should have put down the sword. But hindsight's 20-20, right? It's always 20-20. You look back, you're like, "Well, maybe if I did this differently" or "Maybe I did that differently." But then you can't know how things would have turned out anyways, right? So with this perception that society has around asking for help, I think there's still very much a stigma around that.

Dawn Taylor

So funny. But you know what? That's why it's one of the reasons why I'm even doing this podcast, right, is to try to break some of the stigma in a lot of these things.

It's really easy to judge from your high horse. It's very different when you're in the middle of the situation. And I think that judgment comes from fear. Judgment always comes from fear. Right? And I think to hear someone whose world was completely rocked and it wasn't expected, it wasn't something that was there, right? There was never a thought in your mind, really, that it was going to end in divorce and to have your entire world rock like that, where it's like, "No. Now I have to figure out how to mom on my own, and I have to figure out how to build a business and take care of myself and pay my bills and do all of these things." Right? That you're okay. And that looking back, you can actually maybe it wasn't the end of the world, right?

Christina Monai

It wasn't. It was the end of that world. It was the end of that chapter. It was the end of that Christina, right. So, that chapter needed to happen, and the two best things that came out of that were my kids. My son and my daughter, and I would go through all of that hellfire again just to have them. I would walk through that fire again. And I think that's the truth for any single parent and any parent in general, right? And even those who don't have kids. There's people in your life that you would walk through fire for. So it's not necessarily limited to parents per se, right? Because you could be going through a divorce and not have kids, and it could still be just as painful and just as earth-shattering as mine was, and it's not limited to being a parent, but being able to ask for help. That's where the real strength is, in my opinion. That's stronger than trying to do it all by yourself? Being able to say, "Hey, I'm struggling. I need some help." That's one of the strongest things that you can do. That took me a long time to do and that was actually the same friend who told me it was okay to show my emotions in front of my kids. She's also the one who said, "If someone offers help, say yes." Doesn't matter if you want to say yes. It doesn't matter if you feel like saying yes. Say yes. Accept the help, and that piece of advice right there was the second those two pieces of advice were the best thing that I could have heard when I was going through my divorce. It's okay to show your emotions, whether to your kids or to other people, and accept help and ask for help.

Dawn Taylor

Which is so true. Vulnerability is the strongest state.

Christina Monai

Yeah. And I wonder if there's something to be said for how society perceives vulnerability like that. Like you said, the asking for help, that's a vulnerability and I think that's still seen as weakness for a lot of people. Yeah, I don't think so much for mums, and I actually have a podcast of my own where we talked about single parents, and I am a single mom, and there's lots of stuff for single mom's programs and things like that, and single dads don't have that same community that single moms do and that was actually something I learned.

Dawn Taylor

I have an episode coming up really soon, and that's what I'm talking with single dad about. The lack of community.

Christina Monai

Yeah, 100%. And that made me sad finding that out and I never would have known that had I not gone through what I did. Because I can bet you I would not be looking into the, I don't want to say, plight. That sounds very dramatic and hyperbolic.

Dawn Taylor

I love it.

Christina Monai

The plight of single parents, right? Single mom, single dad, what's the difference? But because one of the major sources of support for me, aside from my friends and family, was a single mom organization, and I would love to give them a shout out. It's Kaleo Collective. So they operate out of St. Albert and I met the founder. I actually met her at a networking event the year within months after my divorce. And that was a turning point for me, was recognizing I am not alone. That was the biggest thing that helped me get through and honestly, I don't know where I'd be if I hadn't met her, because that organization helped me so much and the biggest thing was knowing I wasn't alone. That was the biggest thing. They offer so many good resources and supports and things like that for single moms. The founder was a single mom for the longest time. And I've met one of my best friends, two of my best friends, and actually the co-host of the podcast I'm on. We're both single moms. That's where we met. Was there so much good came from that? So, I never would have been on this journey and I wouldn't be where I am now if those things had not happened.

Dawn Taylor

Isn't that it's so interesting, right? Like, how I feel like this is a common theme that's been coming through a lot of podcasts that I've been recording over the last little bit of conversations people are having with me on actually opening up, letting people in, right? I had this beautiful moment. So when I was dealing with some health stuff a couple of years ago and I was doing medical treatments and I was there five days a week and IV therapies and all these things, and it was just insanity. And I was so sick and weak and tired and I didn't know how I was going to cope or how I was going to survive. And at one point, one of my least touchy feely male friends, not an emotional dude at all, called me. And I had just had 8 hours of IVs. I have massive needle trauma. So he knew that it was a really hard week. I was like two weeks into this. I was almost ready to go home again. And he phoned me and he's like, "Where are you?" And nobody even knew I was doing treatments, really, at that point. I was talking about on my social media, but very lightly, right? People didn't know to the level unless they were in my inner circle, really. And I said, oh. I said, "I'm just driving home from the doctor's office." And he's like, "Come over." And I was like, "What?" He's like, "Come over. You're going to lay on my couch. I'm going to cuddle you in with a blanket. You can cuddle my baby if you need to. And then I'm going to order you dinner. And you're just going to lay there and just be with people for a little bit." He's like, "And if you need me to, I'll drive you home after." And, you know, it was like this moment where I was like, "Thank you." And I could have said no. I could have thought him on it. I could have been like, "No, it's fine. I'll just go back to the hotel in order to skip the dishes or whatever I was going to do." And those moments where it's like, no, you need someone right now. You need people right now. You need to engage in community right now.

Christina Monai

Yes.

Dawn Taylor

And it was so safe. And this is one thing I want to attach to everything that you and I have been talking about today, is make sure your people are safe.

Christina Monai

Yes.

Dawn Taylor

Everybody in your world is safe. Not everybody is going to be safe to talk about divorce with. Not everyone's going to be safe to give your emotions to or to feel your feelings with. It. That is okay. It is not everyone's job. It's also not what they can do. It's also not everyone's skill set and that's okay. Like that's okay.

Christina Monai

Oh, it absolutely is. And I love that you said that, because luckily for me, everyone in my life is safe. That's something that I've actually been very intentional about since my divorce. Even before then, the people that I allow in my life, that I give my energy to are all safe people. But, I'm so glad that you said that, because not everybody has the luxury of that. And I do call it a luxury because there's lots of people who have toxic people in their lives, and it's draining for you, especially when you're going through something so intense. And it was so intense. It is such an intense process, especially when, for one of you, it wasn't expected, right? You just really get knocked off your path, and basically, you don't even feel in the same universe as the path that you were on before. Like, even now, when I think about it, I think that's, like, miles away. Miles away from where I am now.

Dawn Taylor

I feel like that's part of a grieving process, too, that people often don't think about. It's like, yes, the relationship is over?

Christina Monai

Yes.

Dawn Taylor

There's the process of grieving, like, even lost belongings or a home that has to change, and there's all these little parts and pieces. But it's also the future, right? It's the stories that we've already pre-created in our heads as to what life was supposed to look like, how things were supposed to go, all of our ideas on what life was going to be, all of that has to go through grieving.

Christina Monai

Yeah.

Dawn Taylor

Right. That's all so attached to it. So for you coming out of this, obviously, having to do the grieving, finding your support system, all of those things, what are some big key moments that you realized you were going to be okay after?

Christina Monai

Oh, that's a great question. I think it was when, it sounds very simple, but it's when I was able to go a full day without crying.

Dawn Taylor

Oh, that doesn't sound simple.

Christina Monai

That was my brain. That was and, it was the letting the letting go of that, but still honoring, you know, I don't go through moments like that anymore where I feel that, I think the sadness of it started tapering off, say, about a year or so, the sadness of it. And then it was replaced by anger. Because of the situation that I was in, it was very tough on my kids, which means that came to me to help with, right? So I would even say, starting about a year afterwards was when I started to think, "Okay, I can kind of do this. At least I think I can." You never really know when you're a parent. You just got to hope. I think I'm bringing it. I think it was my mom, kind of my mom liked to joke that she gave us just enough childhood, what did she say? And I use the term very comically here. She gave us enough childhood, quote unquote, trauma to give us something to talk about in therapy later in life.

Dawn Taylor

So funny, but so true.

Christina Monai

I will clarify. I had a very loving mom. Very loving dad, right?

Dawn Taylor

Absolutely.

Christina Monai

Oh, I remember how she put it. "You screw your kids up just enough that they have something to talk about in therapy later on in life." That's how she phrased it.

Dawn Taylor

Okay, but think about this for a sec. And I've had this conversation also a lot lately. It's like your parents are actually just 25 years ahead of you or 30 years ahead of you. There's no magical course that they take.

Christina Monai

No. And I used to think that mom and dad knew everything, and now I'm in that same place. And now you're, like, know everything. They did not.

Dawn Taylor

Oh, that is so funny.

Christina Monai

They did know some things. Let's be honest. Like, our parents do know some things, and we do learn from them, but it is bringing home to me now there are some things where I just expect my children to know, and apparently they don't. They don't know certain things. And I'm thinking, "Oh, dear, I have not taught you well." And I recognize this. The last year or two, my son still can't tie his shoes properly, and he's ten. That's just one of those things where, like, I really just haven't thought to sit down and do this over and over and over and over, because I've always just gotten him shoes with Velcro because that's the style he wanted. It didn't click to me, "Oh, you need to be able to tie a shoelace." So, now he has shoes with shoelaces at school, but I come and pick him up, and they're always undone. So, I don't know.

Dawn Taylor

I feel like this is the world's biggest business opportunity for someone. It's like an actual fundamentals checklist for new parents, like what to teach kids and at what age.

Christina Monai

Yes, I'm sure there's stuff out there, but it just didn't because especially when you are on that single parent path, you have such a high mental load because you are essentially carrying the mental load of two people. Because you have to do the work, you have to do the parenting, you have to take care of the house. Especially if your kids are younger, you can have them do some things. And it's a bit easier now because my kids are older. My daughter is 13, my son is ten. So they're able to help around the house in a more adult and helpful way. Right? But still, those little things just fall off my radar. I didn't fully teach my son to ride a bike until last year, the year before. It's a two wheeler. It's just those things that even thinking about it now, like, "Wow, that doesn't look very good on the mom report card there, Christina could you?"

Dawn Taylor

Isn't that? No. I'm laughing so hard because I have friends that were like, "I never taught my kids how to swim. It never crossed my mind. I don't like water, so I just never taught them. And now they're adults, and they don't know how to swim." I think if we just would normalize this, can we just normalize some of these things? This is actually just life.

Christina Monai

Yeah.

Dawn Taylor

So I want to bring up one last thing and I hope you're okay with me saying this. There was a moment that you were like, "Oh, my goodness, I did this." And that was the moment that you actually got approved for a mortgage on your own.

Christina Monai

Oh, my gosh. Yeah. That was amazing.

Dawn Taylor

Massive moment of, like, "I actually did this." I built my business to the point that I could actually get approved for a mortgage, that I can pay my bills, I can pay my expenses, I can take care of myself, my family. And I know that you and I did, like, a giant happy dance that day, and I was so excited for you.

Christina Monai

Yes. It was incredible. It was absolutely incredible. And it was actually a moment prior to that when I got my motorcycle, that was a key moment, too, where it was like, you kind of step into who you are. Right? And that's something that doesn't always happen for a while, and that process of stepping into who you are, because I'd always defined myself by being a wife, by being a mother, a daughter, a sister. And the last four years has actually been rediscovering me. "Who am I? Who am I outside of other people?" And it's been tough. It's been difficult. Lordy, has it been difficult. But at the end of the day. I really like who I am, and I love who I am now. And like I said, I'd go through hellfire for my kids. I go through hellfire for myself too. You're right. And I think that's been the biggest thing, is recognizing that I'm important too, and I deserve to be happy, and I deserve to discover who I am.

Dawn Taylor

Totally. Yeah, you absolutely do. So for our listeners, if you have one piece of advice for someone going through this, someone who is walking through this fire, what would you say?

Christina Monai

It's gonna be okay. You may not see it now. You may not be able to see anything but pain and grief, and you probably feel like you see no way out. And I understand that because that's where I was. But I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that. You hold on to that inner light in you, because we all have it. We all have that light inside of us and I chose to continue to see the light, to reach out for help, to hold on to that light as hard as I could, even on the days when that darkness was so heavy. But you got to choose it. You really have to choose it. It is a conscious choice of one step in front of the other.

Dawn Taylor

It is. It's a conscious choice, it is.

Christina Monai

And I actually watched Frozen 2 recently with my daughter, and there's a song in there called The Next Right Thing. And that song we watched that movie fairly soon after my divorce, and that whole movie really spoke to me. But that song especially, because that song happened in a place of extreme darkness, and you just need to keep putting one foot in front of the other, day by day, hour by hour, sometimes second by second. Just keep moving and do the next right thing.

Dawn Taylor

Thank you. And my big piece of advice would be find your tangibles, find your celebration moments of what you're working towards so that you know, so that you actually have something that you can grab onto that you're like, "I did this." I made it a day without crying, right? Check.

I did that. Right? Almost like your checklist of proof you're going to survive. Yeah. Thank you so much. Seriously, Christina, thank you so much for hanging out with us today. And for the listeners or the viewers, if you're on YouTube, I hope that something you heard today just really sat with you different. And maybe it's a piece of judgment that you're carrying on someone else in their situation or even on yourself or the shame or the guilt or you're in the situation and not knowing how you're going to go through it. I really hope that it proves that you're not alone and that there's people out there who care. Join us again in two weeks for another amazing topic. And yes, we do have the dad side of this coming up, too. And please tell your friends, the more people that feel understood, the better. Check out the show notes located at TheTaylorWay.ca for more information and for all of the contact information for Christina and her company, Life Song Films, to get a video made. She's an incredible videographer. Subscribe now on Apple, Spotify or wherever you listen to your podcast. And if you love the show, it would mean the world if you'd leave a rating or review. Thank you so much, Christina.

Christina Monai

Thank you for having me. It was an absolute pleasure to talk with you. And thank you for giving us safe space for me to share my story. I appreciate that.

Dawn Taylor

You are so welcome. See you guys in a couple of weeks.

Tim Bartsch is a devout Christian, proud family man and talented music teacher. Today at the Taylor Way Talks, he brings forth a tragic experience in his life involving the loss of his child and how it’s seen from a father’s perspective. He talks about the pain of loss, the complexity of grief, and how even in the face of tragedy, the worst possible moment in his life turned into something that led him closer to both God and members of his family. 

Content Warning

In this episode, we discuss some topics that listeners may find difficult such as the loss of a child.

Why you would want to listen to this episode…

Tim Bartsch is a devout Christian, proud family man and talented music teacher. Today at the Taylor Way Talks, he brings forth a tragic experience in his life involving the loss of his child and how it’s seen from a father’s perspective. He talks about the pain of loss, the complexity of grief, and how even in the face of tragedy, the worst possible moment in his life turned into something that led him closer to both God and members of his family. 

Who this for 

For those who have struggled with the loss of a loved one, going through the stages of grief coming to terms with this loss can be a very difficult time. This episode is for those who wish to know more about the process of grief, as well as for those who would like to hear more about the father’s perspective when it comes to dealing with tragedy, and how it paves the way for beautiful, courageous and triumphant things to be experienced late in life.

About Dawn Taylor

Dawn Taylor is the professional ass-kicker, hope giver, life strategist, trauma specialist, and all-around badass. Dawn's journey into helping others heal began when she took her personal recovery from the trauma she experienced in her life into her own hands. While at times unconventional, Dawn’s strategic methods have helped hundreds heal from traumas such as issues related to infidelity,  overcoming addiction,  working through PTSD from sexual, emotional, and physical abuse, as well as helping cult survivors thrive. Dawn’s work has empowered entrepreneurs, stay-at-home moms, and CEOs alike to be superheroes in their own lives. Having completed thousands of hours of training from many professional programs, including the Robbins Madanes Training Institute, Dawn’s blunt honesty will challenge your thinking, broaden your awareness, and help you achieve the outstanding results you are worthy of.

Connect with Dawn here at The Taylor Way: Consultation Call | Website | Facebook | Instagram | LinkedIn

Get to know Dawn on a deeper level through her book! Order Here

P.S. I Made It, is a powerful story that grabs you through its lack of pretension and honesty. Every page reveals another layer of curious wonder at both Dawn’s life and the power of hope that moves within each of us. Dawn’s hope is that you use this book as a resource to deal with your struggles. Share it with someone who needs it. We all want to feel like someone understands what it’s like to suffer through something and – come out the other side. She describes her life as “horrifically beautiful and beautifully horrific. 

Guest Bio

Tim grew up in a quiet town in the BC interior. He spent a lot of time with family, playing music, and spending time outdoors. Fast forward a few decades and Tim lives in Calgary with his wife, son, and daughter, and wouldn't you know, he enjoys spending time with his family, playing music, and being outdoors. 

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Views Expressed, Legal and Medical Disclaimer

This podcast (including any/all site pages, blog posts, blog comments, forums, videos, audio recordings, etc.) is not intended to replace the services of a physician, nor does it constitute a doctor-patient relationship. Information is provided for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional medical advice. You should not use the information on this podcast for diagnosing or treating a medical or health condition. If you have or suspect you have an urgent medical problem, promptly contact your professional healthcare provider. Any application of the recommendations in this podcast/website is at the listener/reader's discretion. The views and opinions expressed are those of guests and do not necessarily reflect the opinion or policy of Dawn Taylor, The Taylor Way and or its Associates. The before mentioned are not liable for any direct or indirect claim, loss or Enter your transcript here...

Transcript 

Dawn Taylor

I am your host, Dawn Taylor, and today we're talking to the amazing Tim Barch. Today's topic is a deep one. So here is the trigger warning for all of you yet I challenge you to listen to it no matter what, because a lot of people around here are dealing with this. And yeah, I promise you'll get through it. But, today's topic is the death of a child from a dad's perspective. Before we get started, I do want to tell you a little bit about our guest so you can be as excited as I am today, but also know how to support him. So, my guest is my cousin Tim. My cousin. Oh, man, as a kid, worshipped the ground this kid walked on. This guy walked on. He has always been one of my absolute favorite relatives, my favorite family members. And I'm honored to say that we have maintained a friendship and a relationship into our elderly years. No, I say it's like we're so old, but we have. He is a worship pastor, he's a dad, he's a husband, he's an incredible musician. He's all the things. He also has a heart for helping other parents. So I just want to say welcome to the show, Tim.

Tim Bartsch

Thanks a lot. I appreciate it.

Dawn Taylor

So, we talked about this a while ago. You had asked, you're like, "I think I want to tell my daughter's story." And I was like, "Yes, we need to do this." So I'm going to let you take this where you want this to go. So let's start at the beginning. Tell us about Amelia. 

Tim Bartsch

Sure. Well, just newly married and, um, my wife found out she's pregnant, and it's exciting. And two months in, baby's growing. This is great. My wife was on some blood pressure medication. No big deal, so the doctor said. And then a couple of months keep going or roll on, and we hit the 26-week point and we're seeing the specialist. And I was there. I happened to be there with my wife that day. Her name is Janine and the doctor said, "Your baby has to come out now." And we were like, "Okay, it's getting real." So, I go home to grab some stuff. They scheduled a C-section for 06:00 a.m. the next morning, and this was like three, four in the afternoon. And, anyway, I don't even know if they told us 06:00 a.m., but it was something like that. And then I drive over that morning. I wasn't even allowed in there. They had a glass window where I could see people running around with the kid. Wow. I guess I should say they injected some steroids into Janine's for the baby because at that age, it increases the chances of survival. But, also we had the stat that at 26 weeks, viability of a child is between 70 and 80%. So nearly every child lives anyway. So we're like, "Cool. All right, we're good." 

Dawn Taylor

Baby's coming early, but we're okay. 

Tim Bartsch

Yeah. And we knew it would be months in the NICU and w weren't sure what that would look like. But you deal with it, right? Because it's your kid. So anyway, I got there in the morning, put on the robe thing and all that stuff. Got to see Janine after the operation and just kind of sat there. Right. And you get to stay in the neonate intensive care unit, well, actually, you don't get to. The child does, but we had a space, and we're just kind of moving on, dealing with things. In-laws are in town buying stuff. We're going out for dinner. Just figuring moving on. Right? 

Dawn Taylor

Regular day. 

Tim Bartsch

Yeah. And day two rolls around. I think I got in on like, day one and a half, give or take. Sometime on the second day, whatever. And she's little. You could put my wife's wedding ring and she's a size four on her finger. You could put that around Amelia's wrist. 

Dawn Taylor

Wow. 

Tim Bartsch

So, she was less she was just around a pound. Just over a pound. And then, of course, there are other parts of the story, but leading up to day two, a nurse comes in and she had a different face on. She said "It doesn't look good. We don't know what's wrong." And she was presenting like an infection. Her skin was getting redder, looking sick. And then I went in again, and I think that's when Janine and I finally went into, because she was having a cesarean. You can't move. You're in a wheelchair. You're cut open. You got stitches inside you and outside you. And it's really not - you sit up and you faint. It's not easy, and I didn't get the cesarean, obviously. So you'd have to ask Janine how much worse it was than I'm describing. But, we go in and we get to look at her and stuff. And at that point, they said "it doesn't look good, we'll see." Doesn't look good. And, kind of looking at her, I think, you know what? I might be remembering some of this wrong, but I think that was when we did a video call with my brother-in-law, who was in Thailand at the time, and he was the only one who saw Amelia alive apart from Janine and myself. 

Dawn Taylor

Wow. 

Tim Bartsch

So it's kind of cool, kind of sad because the older siblings didn't get a chance. But anyway, at that point, it may have actually been then maybe a second visit we had. And they said, we don't know. She's getting worse. And essentially, then now you have a choice to make. We can treat her with something, and it might help, but it will burn inside her body. Or, you can let her go, and either way, she may die. Well, obviously pull the plug. She's going to die. But anyway, we were just like, "No, we're not going to burn our daughter." 

Dawn Taylor

Okay, so pause there for a second. 

Tim Bartsch

Sure. 

Dawn Taylor

So, as a parent, you've been told, and this is literally over a matter of days, you've been told, like, 70% to 80% chance of survival. So you're, like, plan in the future and how this is going to look, and probably like, "Oh, I'm going to need more time off work." Spend a lot of time in NICU. That's one complete thought process to oh, hey, here's two of the most horrific decisions in the world. Oh, and by the way, you have to choose one. 

Tim Bartsch 

Yeah. You can torture your kid and she might die, or you can pull the plug and she's going to die, Like, pain or death.

Dawn Taylor

Like, but that is the most brutal decision.

Tim Bartsch

Yeah, it was harsh, you know? You know, in the in the middle of it, too. It's like, "Well, if I pull the plug, am I killing my daughter?" That question you ask and and, you know, growing up in a family that is devout, you know, church-going folks, it's like, "What are the theological ramifications of pulling the plug?" But really, though, that's when the rubber actually hits the road. It's kind of like asking, what would you do if you were, like, whatever conviction you hold? What would you do if it was challenged at the most fundamental level? And I'm like, "Well, I can't tell you that because I haven't been there, and even how can you ask that question?" You don't know. You can never know until you're there. 

Dawn Taylor

You don't know until tell you're in the middle of it. 

Tim Bartsch

Yeah. Even when you've made up my mind. Even when you've made up your mind. Good luck, buddy. So, anyway, all that to say, it didn't take long for us to realize that we had to let her go. And it was kind of cool, but one of the nurses who was in there who was caring for us, she just said, "Thank you." Something like that. "What a brave choice you've made." Wow. Because this nurse, I'm sure, has walked with many parents who are like, "Keep the child alive." And you're like, "Yeah, but, like, for who? How are you the best parent?" And I'm like, "Oh, man, I got to let her go, and I really don't want to, and I got to let her go." So, we did, and we got to be there when they they pulled out the breathing tube, and it was kind of cool. It was like, whatever it was, she lifted up her hand and then it fell and then she died. And it was beautiful. 

Dawn Taylor

Yeah. How many days was that? 

Tim Bartsch

Her birthday is the 4th of September and she was gone on the 7th, 2013. 

Dawn Taylor

Just a few precious days on this earth.

Tim Bartsch

Yeah. 

Dawn Taylor

Let's talk about this from a dad's perspective.

Tim Bartsch

Sure.

Dawn Taylor

So, from a mum's perspective, right. Your body has all the hormonal changes going on. You've just given birth. You've also bonded in a completely different way to this child for those 26 weeks. Right? It's so different. But let's talk about it from a dad's perspective. How is that for you? 

Tim Bartsch

Well, you know, yeah. You're sitting there and the mom is crying and crying and crying and crying and I have tears too, of course, but I know I can't feel any of that stuff. I wasn't cut open, the baby didn't get pulled out of me, and I'm thankful to have been able to be in the room when they did a Caesarean on our child Eiley, who's now seven. And it was awesome. That can be another podcast, a C-section from a dad's perspective. But having her, the months and months, it wasn't not just the day after, but the time after, watching her grieve just shredded me. And, yeah.

Dawn Taylor

We talked earlier, we're both crying. Get us being hot messes. This is a tough one. Was it also from a man's perspective of needing to be the rock and needing to be the support and needing to be the strong person? At any point in there did you feel almost forgotten? 

Tim Bartsch

It's a good question. It's interesting. So maybe we can come back to this one. How, when you're grieving, people are usually there for you for a couple days, maybe even a week. And then nothing happened because there's a hockey game or there's, your family members have kids who have sports or whatever. People got to go home because they got jobs. But in that time, I felt bad because I wanted to be able to identify more, I think, with what Janine was going through. But I also recognized that I had grief as well. And I needed to be able, I had to visit whatever place I had to go as I grieved. Otherwise, I would carry it with me. So, to answer your question, actually, about being left out. Yes, of course. I did a little bit. Because it's the baby of the mother. 

Dawn Taylor

Oh, interesting wording, but yeah. Makes sense. 

Tim Bartsch

But at the same time, I know that's not the case. I was fortunate to have people that I could talk to, including, we had a therapist that we that Janine and I visited, so good. And honestly, I mean, I gotta put it out there that not just my family is devout. I'm a firm believer that God is with me. All the time, and the comfort that, you know, I suppose people of any faith can identify with this, but let me say that Jesus Christ is Lord, and He walked us through it, and you can't do it without Him, so forget it. And I know that comes across as bigoted, even from some people's perspective, and so be it. Let's talk, because I'm not here to talk about what I am against. I have so much thanks for, you would say, strength when you shouldn't have it. 

Dawn Taylor

That right there.

Tim Bartsch

There's enough understanding to make it for the next ten minutes. You don't have to have a whole day. You don't have to make it through the day. Take a deep breath and you'll make it through the next couple of seconds. And then you get to take another breath.

Dawn Taylor

You know, I think I said this before on the podcast, but I remember when our grandpa got cancer and he wasn't doing well. And, Grandma had talked to me often because of having a husband who had almost died so many times and having dealt with so many health issues myself. We'd have these weird little, like, back hallway of their house conversations, the exact spot by the bathroom and the waiter where we stand. And she'd like, whisper questions to me about how I had dealt with it and how I'd coped with it. And at one point, I said to her, I was like, "Grandma, some days you're like, 'I'm killing it one day at a time. I can make it one whole day.'" And I said, "Sometimes you're like, 'no, I might make it to lunch.'" And I said, "But Grandma, there's literally times where you count to 60, take a deep breath, grateful you survived, and then you start again right back back at one, because you're like, 'okay, I think I can make 60 more seconds.'" And at Grandpa's funeral, she came over and gave me a hug and just started counting quietly in my ear. And I just laughed and just hugged her. I was like, "There we go, Grandma."

Tim Bartsch

Yeah. Someone said it might have even been some famous author said what saves a man is to take a step and then another. For all the dads out there, it's like, obviously you can't feel those feelings, but who are you? You're right there. Okay? If you're with the mother her, you're beside her. And if you're not, you just lost a kid and feel the feelings, you have to talk to someone. And even if you if you can talk to somebody who's gone through it, because that was one of the best things was as soon as I shared about the death of Amelia, I had Moms and Dads coming out of the woodwork saying, "We had the same thing happen to us." And I was like. "Okay. I got a bunch of friends." And it's like an instant fundamental connection you make with people you've never met. In one case, it was the grandmother of one of my music students, and she just very quietly said named her child that she lost and says he would have been 27 today or something, or he would have been 27 years old or something like that. It was just like, "Wow." That's why we got to talk about it. Because I live in Calgary, so there was a particular Calgary Flames player. Oh, no, and I'm going to forget his name on the air. That's awesome. I'll remember it in about 45 minutes. But they lost a child right around the same time. And I was like, "Man, I got to talk to him." But it was so interesting. I knew what he was going through. And I'm like, "dude, I got your back. You don't know me, and I'll never see you again or see you ever. But I got your back. Bye." 

Dawn Taylor

Interesting club that you're part of that you don't want to be part of.

Tim Bartsch

Yeah. 

Dawn Taylor

Welcome to the club that I wish you weren't in. 

Tim Bartsch

And what if we could just share that grief, though, man? What kind of idiots are we when we build a silo around us because we're going through this trouble? There's all kinds of reasons, but you got to open it up.

Dawn Taylor

But you do. So moving forward after I remember going to her funeral.

Tim Bartsch

Yeah.

Dawn Taylor

And it was so brutal, but so beautiful. 

Tim Bartsch

I wrote a piece of music. It was between the day of her death and the day of the funeral. I had it handwritten. Oh, wait. Yeah, I did. And it took me about a day. Who knows? But, still got the piece of music.

Dawn Taylor

It's amazing, right? I mean, no child funeral, no funeral is good, but you know, when you're like at a grandparents' funeral, you're like, "They lived a good life, we'll miss them and it's devastating." But you're good. But a child, you're like, "They didn't even get a chance. I know this come across no, I know this is going to come across as I don't know what, so just bear with me. But do you feel like it wasn't taken as serious because she was premature and one pound versus has she passed away at full term or at a later date?

Tim Bartsch

No, it's funny. I know. It's like, how do you write a three day obituary? "She lived three days, she died." Here we are with the gallous humor. I love it.

Dawn Taylor

The dark sense of humor. Our family is known for this. Yeah, we are.

Tim Bartsch

Yeah. Not really, because people yeah, the only thing that sometimes creeps in is when people are meaning well and down years later. Oh, well, you had another child, so I guess it's okay, periodically. But most people aren't that stupid anymore. Stupid might be the wrong word, maybe. 

Dawn Taylor

No, we're using it. It's okay.

Tim Bartsch

It's like you should know better when someone's grieving. So all you folks out there who have friends who are going through grief, just sit with them. 

Dawn Taylor

Okay, I want you to define that because people don't actually understand what that actually means. 

Tim Barton

Isn't there an acronym - STFU? It means don't talk. It's interesting. I told a guy who lost he was friends, very good friends with a man who lost his wife suddenly wife of like 40 years or something like this just this past fall. And I just said if I could give you one word of advice and I don't mean to give you advice, but don't say anything. Just sit with them. No. And if you talk, just talk about stuff. And stuff means not related to anything that they're going through because they'll bring it up on their terms, and then you get to walk with them because you might not be the person they need to tell about how they're really feeling, but your presence with them shows them, and maybe they will share. I didn't have many like that, except I had people who asked me, "How can I help?" And I just said, "Just be around." And they were, fortunately not those types who say, "Oh, you got to stay strong, or it's so great how you're handling this." I'm like, "You don't know."

Dawn Taylor

You have no idea what's going on.

Tim Bartsch

And it wasn't in a mean way. It's like, I don't know, you idiot. It's more like my kid just died. It sucks. Come on, for real. Just hang out. We're okay. Maybe you could go get me some broccoli or something because I need to make a stir fry. 

Dawn Taylor

Yeah. 

Tim Bartsch

Anyway, we actually felt really supported by a lot of people, just such a wide variety of folks. They even brought food, even though my wife is a Celiac. So, unfortunately, if you're reading this or hearing this and you brought food, we didn't really eat it because my wife couldn't eat anything you brought. So I love the intention, and the care. Yeah. So that's all right. But that's another fun story. The third podcast.

Dawn Taylor

Right? It's so true. So moving through that grief now, let's talk about a couple of years later. Janine's pregnant again. 

Tim Bartsch

Mm-hmm. You know what? Can I back up just a little bit? Yeah, we'll come back to that one for sure shortly. Let's see here. Was it even a year? It wasn't. February. 

Dawn Taylor

I know where you're going. And I was like, "I'm going to let you bring this up if you want to. I'm not going to go there."

Tim Bartsch

Yeah, I think it's pretty cool because I referred to my faith, and I'm not saying everything happens for a reason. That's a really stupid thing to say, I think. But, every circumstance in your life can be redeemed, can be turned into an opportunity to bring healing and wholeness to yourself and to others. And, shortly after the death of my daughter, my brother's wife had a child who lived for nine days, and then she died from something. Later, they discovered that there was no way she was getting out of that one either. And I could walk with him and oh, man, talk about the best thing that could have happened out of the worst thing that happened, and we have that bond that gets irreplaceable, and you can't break that. And so we walked through it, and we still periodically just kind of were the two dads who lost kids. Yeah, just look back. Look back at it and, yeah, it's pretty cool. How do you say it's pretty cool? But I think anybody who's gone through anything terrible who has let themselves experience the healing that you can experience

Dawn Taylor

Okay, say that again.

Tim Bartsch

So anyone who is willing to-

Dawn Taylor

Anyone who's gone through a horrible experience-

Tim Bartsch

- who has let themselves be healed from it, it takes time. Who has let themselves be healed from it, can turn that terror into something life-changing for yourself and also for people around you, because it changes, well, I know enough that it changes your biology, not just your thinking, but actually physically changes you. But it also, well, it changed a lot of things for me, but anyway, it allows you to become, to be an agent of healing for others, at least to give them the choice to make steps toward it. You can't heal anyone. You can point them in the direction you can nudge, and you can be a powerful ally and, yeah, just try it.

Dawn Taylor

Seriously. So you said it changed a lot for you, and then we're going to get back to the other question, but what did it all change for you? 

Tim Bartsch

Well, I've been a music teacher since I was 15, and I'm 47, so do the math.

Dawn Taylor

So like four or five years? 

Tim Bartsch

Yeah, give or take.

Dawn Taylor

I'm that old, by the way.

Tim Bartsch

I don't know. I'm ageless, tell you. 

Dawn Taylor

You are ageless. So, it changed how I treat people, and it changed suddenly, I've always liked kids. I have a lot of fun being a music teacher, among other things that I do. But now they were someone's kid. It wasn't just these kids, it was that parent's child. Whether they have a good relationship with that kid or not, that person's treasure. And, so I'm not just teaching a kid music. It was so interesting. I heard myself say the words. It's like, "I'm not just teaching these children music. I'm helping them to become just good people." And it changes the level of patience you have. It changes how you how you show, like, it's, I guess, discipline. Or, like, how you treat kids who are misbehaving. You still have to call them on it and you have to provide discipline. But, the words you use and the actions you take change or it caused me to change and certainly reconsider the well-worn pathways, the habits of either you've seen it done this way or it was done this way to you, or you think it's a good idea, whatever it is. Now, something in your life has changed or challenged how you think. Yeah. And it did, and I'm so glad. That was one of the first things I noticed, actually, because-

Dawn Taylor

Big fundamental changes.

Tim Bartsch

I had one week off and I was back to teaching. Imagine that, put your death of your daughter in a little box and go to work. But hey, that's also part of moving on is imagine that life moves on.

Dawn Taylor

It's so true. It's so true that it does. So let's backtrack. And that was a crazy year, by the way. That was suchan  interesting, from when my mom passed away to your daughter, to your brother's daughter. It just felt like it was just like compiled death. It was just wild in our family. It was a very heavy, heavy time for, I mean, mostly you guys, but for everyone, right? Like it was just not okay. 

Tim Bartsch

Yeah.

Dawn Taylor

So now let's go to a couple of years later, Janine gets pregnant again.

Tim Bartsch

Well, it's funny because on one level, of course you're worried about, well, is it going to happen again? Yeah, of course you're going to worry about that. If any trauma you've ever had, if it happened in a place, every time you pass that place.

Dawn Taylor

100%. .

Tim Bartsch

Every time I drive by the hospital, I don't often, but I would have work up there and I'm like, oh yeah, I was up on the 10th floor or whatever. And I remember walking the twelve flights of stairs, running up the stairs to the, to where Janine was, because the elevators I was like, I'm not going to get in the elevator any faster. So, interestingly enough. So the specialists who said she's got to come out now gave Janine her personal phone number,, and she was a nephrologist by trade. So it's a kidney, folks. Kidney doctor who happens to be a celiac, I think, or has Crohn's or something like that. And so immediately, they had that connection. They knew that some of that, there are tendencies. Well, if you have I guess I didn't say the high blood pressure was preeclampsia in my wife. And so knowing that now we had a whole pile of doctors that were like, we're bringing this one in. 

Dawn Taylor

You're treated very different.

Tim Bartsch

Oh, yeah. And all that to say to the doctor who didn't know the first time, I have not - like, you know, I can imagine where people would go with that, because it's a she was a relatively new doctor, and I actually told somebody last night. It's like, "I hope if if she ever thinks about it or even heard that we lost this girl, I hope she now knows that the importance of knowing someone's history, just medical history, a lesson learned." I can't blame her. I don't know if you were headed that way.

Dawn Taylor

No, but sadly, doctors are humans, too. 

Tim Bartsch

If only they could know everything about us. Right? 

Dawn Taylor

Right. 

Tim Bartsch

So, anyway, like you were saying, we had a pile of specialists, but it is stressful. 1.6s And of course, she was a little bit early, but not really. And I got to watch the C section. Like I said, that's a whole other podcast. Some people are like, "Oh, that's so disgusting. I was like, this is awesome." And the nurse is like, "You have to stand behind this curtain, and you cannot get out of your seat." I was like, "You're kidding me." 

Dawn Taylor

"Watch me." 

Tim Bartsch

Well, I did stand up at one point, and that's where I'll leave it. But if anyone wants to know, it was pretty great. Yes. Anyway, so she was born and she was fine, and she's a wild seven year old full of beans, and I'd have it no other way.

Dawn Taylor

Did it take you? So you have two older kids as well. I mean, both of them are graduated now.

Tim Bartsch

Yes, my son graduated this year

Dawn Taylor

Wild, right? So. Did you knowing how you bonded with your first two amazing kids, then you have number three, and you deal with the death of this child, and now you have number four. Was it a different bonding experience? Did it take longer to connect? Was there any of that stuff with it?

Tim Bartsch

No, not really. I don't think so. It was it it was being a lot older, having a little kid. 

Dawn Taylor

Yeah. 

Tim Bartsch

So the age difference, maybe that means we have less energy, but honestly, I don't know. I think when you need something, unless there's something else wrong, your body can provide it. At some fundamental level, you have enough. 1And I remember walking, I'll stand up here a little bit, walking through the hall with my elbows out, because she was long enough or short enough to fit in between, especially the late nights. And that way, when I bumped into the wall, because I did, it wouldn't be her head hitting the wall and stuff. And I think I think parents can identify with that, parents of any age. But no, there's no difference bonding. And what was awesome was particularly my son, he's been., because my daughter's now out of the house, too, so she was a little older, of course, but he really bonded a lot with her, with the, Eilee is her name. And they have a pretty special relationship, and we've yeah, I appreciate that. 

Dawn Taylor

That's awesome. So what is it you do to remember her? What are some things that you guys have done, incorporated into your family to remember her?

Tim Bartsch

Well, we've had birthday parties every year where we'll make a cake. That's one thing we do, that's good to remember. I think it's important to recognize that different people need different things for anyone who has experienced the loss. Don't think about what other people will think about how you remember. You know, you can let time make that choice for you in terms of how you respond to your own grief. People don't need to tell you how to grieve. For us, we have the birthday party that we do, and I think, yeah, usually it's like some little cake or something. Anyway, the first few years we went on little bit of a time away, maybe a dinner out, stuff like that, too. Just Janine and myself, but that's about it. However, we had Amelia cremated, and we have a little urn that sat in the same spot right beside her little the hospital put together, like, a box thing and a little shadow box frame with a picture of her and her little footprints and some cute stuff. So there's a little section on the dresser. Every now and then, I'll just go to that little urn and I'll put my finger on it and just talk to her a little bit. 

Dawn Taylor

It's awesome. 

Tim Bartsch

Yeah.

Dawn Taylor

I love what you said about how it's not the same. It's not the same for anyone. Grief is the same for anyone, and how they deal with it, how they process it, what they need to do after. I know for myself, I looked at so, for example, when my mom died. I looked at, okay, what was a character trait of her that I want incorporate into my life and make more of a focus in my life? And I did that also with Grandma, Grandpa, and things like that. That's one of the ways I've grieved. Right. But I don't have photos of them up anywhere, right? Yeah. And I have little things around my house that make me think of them. Like I have grandpa's fingers. I don't know if you've ever known this, but this finger is Grandpa's finger. My pointer finger is literally Grandpa's finger. The same twist, the same curve. And every time I look down, I'm like, freaking ugly finger. Reminds me of Grandpa, right?. And I remember being a little girl, comparing fingers with Grandpa, and I always laugh. I'm like, Man, I should tell the rest of the family that one day, like, if you ever miss Grandpa, just look at my finger. It'll catch you off guard. It's funny.

Tim Bartsch

You know that volcanic glass that sat on top of Grandpa grandma's piano? Yeah. I've got a piece of that. 

Dawn Taylor

Oh, so cool. 

Tim Bartsch

I won't trade that for, like, a million bucks. It's like, I see it and I'm like, There they are. It's pretty cool.

Dawn Taylor

Totally. Right? And so for me, I go back to my mom's grave often. Like, every time I go through, I go and I stop and I see her and Grandma, Grandpa, and I have a moment, and I bring flowers, and that's something that's very precious to me. But my siblings, like, I think they only go if I go and they happen to come with me. That's just not something that means anything to them or that they need as part of their grief, right?

Tim Bartsch

Yeah, I know. My brother does graveside visits, too, for his daughter. Yeah, it's true. Some people plant things, some people have little areas of their yard. 

Dawn Taylor

Everyone has a thing. 

Tim Bartsch

Yeah. 

Dawn Taylor

You know, my challenge to anyone listening to this, this dealing with grief, has or, honestly, we all will at some point in our lives, right? It's like one of the guarantees in life is death, sad to say, but it's true, is find the thing that comforts you and works for you. No matter what anyone else says, no matter what they judge, no matter what their thoughts are on it, or it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. What is your thing, right? Like, as long as it's not harming you or harming anyone around you. What is that way of remembering?

Tim Bartsch

Yeah. And I think, too, let time be your ally. And I really don't think that's profound. I guess it can be if you look back and realize but time is one of your allies. Because, then you can feel. You don't have to feel everything on the first day, and you can't and you won't. But, it helps you realize that maybe some of the things you were doing in the middle of the grief at first were toxic, whatever it is, and it could actually have been a good thing you were doing that actually wasn't good for you, necessarily. 

Dawn Taylor

Can you give us an example of that? 

Tim Bartsch

Let's try. I'll try to see if there's something in even in my own 

Dawn Taylor

Sorry, I put you on the spot. 

Tim Bartsch

Yeah, cause I oh, boy. Something so okay, well, I didn't do this. If you, say, pretend I went on a walk every day at a certain time just to remember my daughter. And I did it for a whole year. And then I realized that those walks there's sometimes a varying length, but then there's other people in my life, and a year later I'm realizing, hold on, I have this wife beside me who's grieving too, and. And I can't remember the last time I talked to her about how she's doing, but I've had my me time for a whole year, so it's a very important thing to do. But it's hold on a minute. I need to see if I can find a different way or bring her along on those walks or whatever it is.

Dawn Taylor

Is this still serving me now in the way it was then?

Tim Bartsch

Yes. And I think that's that when you're with someone who's grieving, I think they need, so the grieving person needs some time. Just like if you cut yourself, say, the comedy when you cut your neck and it's going, yeah. When you're going through the trauma, that's what's happening. And people kind of got to let you be for a second, but then after a little while, it's okay to jump in and say, "Let's talk about that blood that's leaking out of your neck." Because, if we let it keep going, you might be in some trouble. 

Dawn Taylor

Yeah. 

Tim Bartsch

And I think that really does have a practical application when it comes to this type of thing. So as a dad, it's like one of the things you got to remember, and I had this and I had a good laugh with my brother. I think he did forget one day, like the anniversary of the death or something. And I'm like, dude, I forget, I'll go a month, and I won't have even thought of my daughter. And I'm like, "Am I a jerk? And no, I'm not." I'm the father of a daughter who passed away, for crying out loud, so leave me alone. But it's like, what you can do, though, with that is, hold on, I haven't thought of her. Now, let me see who else is in her life or was. And let me let that trigger something in you instead of we use trigger most often in a negative way that it triggers something that leads us to a negative behavior or feelings that we tend to dwell on. Well, can't certain actions and activities trigger positive behavior?

Dawn Taylor

100% they can.

Tim Bartsch

And so let those times of forgetting go, "Oh, wait, I should ask my wife or my kids, whoever it is that was involved directly or even indirectly." it's like, "Hey, how are you doing with this?" And you have that shared experience, so why not share it now? There you go. 

Dawn Taylor

I love that. I love that so much. Tim, is there anything else? You have been so amazingly just open and vulnerable today in talking about this and how it's all gone down. Is there anything else that you would like to say to someone listening or if someone is to share this with someone to be like, hey, you need to listen to this? Anything you'd like to say to them right now? Either from a support perspective of my family member or my friend or my person going through this, or the person going through it, is there anything else you'd like to add? 

Tim Bartsch

Well, just to double back on, let time pass, you know? And one of the best things you can do is just set a reminder in your calendar, like the day of the anniversary of the death or just on special days or whatever routine it is. So, this is for people who are supporting the one who's grieving find a support routine and give it and do it for at least a year. After that year of support routine, you could even reevaluate with the person who's grieving. You could say, "I've been walking with you for this year. How can I help? Is there anything you need? Do you want me to call you once a month? What would you like? What do you need?" And if they say nothing and call them once a month. So, that leads me to the other thing is most of the time, people who are grieving aren't in any place to actually make practical choices. 

Dawn Taylor

No. 

Tim Bartsch

So, taking previous advice, I said, don't talk about the death, but find a way to just give them something that, you know, they might need. Maybe it's a text. Once a week. Hey, what's up? You don't even have to say anything. All you're doing is you're being there. And for the person who's grieving, you need people. Feelings are meant to be, well, first of all, felt. But you can't, okay, if you break your leg so that it's like an L. You can't walk on it. 1Somebody needs to share that burden with you and feel your feelings because you have to and share them because you have to. And if you want to carry the memory of your loss in the best possible way, share it with someone, because you will forget. And time as much of an ally as it is, it also is a thief. You will lose days. You will lose memories. It's science. Whatever you want to call it. But if you share it with someone, you've just multiplied the memory of that person. 

Dawn Taylor

That's beautiful. 

Tim Bartsch

Yeah. So let's leave it at that. If anyone wants to talk ever, I'm sure my contact info is in there at some point. Let's talk, let's share.

Dawn Taylor

I love that. Thank you so much, Tim. Thank you for being on the show today. For people listening, we are going to include Tim's contact information, how to get a hold of him, how to find him, how to stalk him. I mean, not stalk him, just find him to talk to him in the show notes. So thank you, thank you, thank you for hanging out with us. I hope that something you heard today hit home or just allowed you to see grief in a different way or lower some of your judgments on the people around you who might have to make decisions that you don't always 100% agree with. Because when you're in the middle of it, you never know. You never know what decision you're going to make and how you're going to make it. Join us again in two weeks for another amazing topic. Please tell your friends, share this with people, because the more people that feel understood and seen, the better. Check out the Show notes located at TheTaylorWay.ca, for more information and all of Tim's contact information, and subscribe now on Apple, Spotify or wherever you listen to your podcast. And if you love the show, it would mean the world to me if you would leave a rating and review. See you guys later.

Content Warning: 

In this episode, we discuss some topics that listeners may find difficult such as parental alienation, narcissism, and gaslighting.

Why you would want to listen to this episode…

As a complement to episode #28, this episode of the Taylor Way Talks deals with alienation from the child’s perspective, showing that when it comes to alienation, things can go either way. Our anonymous guest has endured life with a narcissistic mother who would always do everything in her power to paint her husband in a bad light. Now an adult, our guest tries to come to terms with the lies she’s discovered and the truth she has now grown to accept in her life, She shares all the ups and downs from her perspective.

Who this for 

For anyone who has experienced or is currently going through parental alienation or living with verbally abusive parents, this episode is a must-listen, since it shows you're not alone and there are ways to get through and eventually leave the situation you're in so that you can discover the truths of your own life that will free you.

About Dawn Taylor

Dawn Taylor is the professional ass-kicker, hope giver, life strategist, trauma specialist, and all-around badass. Dawn's journey into helping others heal began when she took her personal recovery from the trauma she experienced in her life into her own hands. While at times unconventional, Dawn’s strategic methods have helped hundreds heal from traumas such as issues related to infidelity,  overcoming addiction,  working through PTSD from sexual, emotional, and physical abuse, as well as helping cult survivors thrive. Dawn’s work has empowered entrepreneurs, stay-at-home moms, and CEOs alike to be superheroes in their own lives. Having completed thousands of hours of training from many professional programs, including the Robbins Madanes Training Institute, Dawn’s blunt honesty will challenge your thinking, broaden your awareness, and help you achieve the outstanding results you are worthy of.

Connect with Dawn here at The Taylor Way: Consultation Call | Website | Facebook | Instagram | LinkedIn

Get to know Dawn on a deeper level through her book! Order Here

P.S. I Made It, is a powerful story that grabs you through its lack of pretension and honesty. Every page reveals another layer of curious wonder at both Dawn’s life and the power of hope that moves within each of us. Dawn’s hope is that you use this book as a resource to deal with your struggles. Share it with someone who needs it. We all want to feel like someone understands what it’s like to suffer through something and – come out the other side. She describes her life as “horrifically beautiful and beautifully horrific. 

Thanks for listening!

Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!

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Views Expressed, Legal and Medical Disclaimer

This podcast (including any/all site pages, blog posts, blog comments, forums, videos, audio recordings, etc.) is not intended to replace the services of a physician, nor does it constitute a doctor-patient relationship. Information is provided for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional medical advice. You should not use the information on this podcast for diagnosing or treating a medical or health condition. If you have or suspect you have an urgent medical problem, promptly contact your professional healthcare provider. Any application of the recommendations in this podcast/website is at the listener/reader's discretion. The views and opinions expressed are those of guests and do not necessarily reflect the opinion or policy of Dawn Taylor, The Taylor Way and or its Associates. The before mentioned are not liable for any direct or indirect claim, loss or damage resulting from the use of listening/reading to this podcast or any website and/or any website (s) linked to/from it. Listeners/readers should consult their physicians concerning the recommendations in this podcast.

Transcript:

Dawn Taylor

I am your host, Dawn Taylor, and today we are talking to the amazing floating head number two. So if you listened to our last episode, we had an anonymous guest talking about what it was like to parent with a narcissist and when they practice parental alienation on them. And today, we have this amazing opportunity to see the other side of it. I'm talking about from the child's perspective. So what was it like dealing with parental alienation but from the child? So this child is no longer a child. I can say that much. I'm going to say she's at least 35. She's laughing at me right now, 35 plus a year or two. But, she approached me to talk about this because it's a very interesting topic. And from the other side of it, right, hearing about this from the other side of it and how it was like to deal with it, but also now as an adult, with an elderly parent, where memories are starting to go and now how do you cope? So, we don't have a typical bio. We don't have any of those things. So I'm just going to say welcome to the show. I am so excited you're here today.

Anonymous Guest

Good morning, Dawn. Thanks for having me.

Dawn Taylor

Oh, I am so excited. This was something when I posted about on my social media that I had done the original interview with the last floating head that, by the way, I love that I call you guys, that, so many people were like, "Oh, my gosh, I need to hear that episode." "Oh. I think that that was me. I think that that's what I'm dealing with. I think I was the child." And so I know that there's people waiting for this episode and just wanting to hear this, and so I just want to thank you so much right off the bat just for even being vulnerable and showing up today.

Anonymous Guest

Hey, I'm here. Let's get on with this. I think I can do it.

Dawn Taylor

I think you can, too. This is also her very first podcast she's ever done. So, there's some nerves, but we're good. So, let's start at the beginning. Which parent was it that was the narcissist in your home?

Anonymous Guest

It was my mom.

Dawn Taylor

And did you know that growing up? Did you know anything about that? It's become a really common word over these last probably five years.

Anonymous Guest

I don't even know if narcissist was even in a dictionary then when this all happened, because my parents divorced when I was about four, three or four, and I'm the youngest of four siblings and I'm seven years younger than the one next to me. So they're ten, nine and seven years older than I am. So, they got divorced and I didn't understand what was going on. All I saw was we had a happy house. It turned into complete turmoil. And then from there, there was a relationship. I had a relationship with my father, but I always remember when he came, it was like Santa Claus coming. It was all his kids lined up at the front door, you know, big shrubbed cheeks and smiling and happy and just can't wait to get out of the house and see him. And then there was mom, who would do something, whether it was the one time he came, he worked on the pipeline, so he worked out of town and we lived in Edmonton. So, one time he comes and he's got his new spouse, wife, woman with him, whatever she was, and rolls up in a brand new trailer with truck and trailer, of course, because it was the end of the season and he was able to buy whatever he needed and he's coming out of a divorce as well. And, Mom had this sheriff there and we were supposed to go camping. Well, apparently there were some money issues. I don't know what was going on, and the sheriff drove up and said, "Hi, dad, we're taking your truck and trailer right now. Thanks very much. You can deal with it with courts." And they took it, and here we had had plans, we were going camping or going away with him and that was it, and then the argument began and of course all four of us kids are now in tears on the front doorstep because the yelling and the screaming, that's happening and there's no summer vacation and that's the end of it and I don't remember what happened after that. I'm sure we ended up going with my dad for our summer vacation. We probably went and stayed at my grandma's for a while with him and whatnot. But, then he had to deal with that argument but the biggest thing that would happen is because he worked on the pipeline, he would come into town, we would see him Easter, Thanksgiving and summer holiday. And usually with the summary, we would go for the full two months. So there was always this bit of excitement. But there was also an anxiety, because the closer we got to an event, the harder it was to deal with, because Mom would start and it would be "Your father's a bad person." She would say things, negative things, and he's with her. So ,then it gave us the impression that she's sending off to go with a bad person and why would she do this? Then one day, I remember asking her at a very young age, "Why do we have to go?" And she said, "Because the judge said so." And that was it. That was the reason. So then as a kid, you have these very mixed feelings where you're in this loving environment, but then you're sent off to the wolves, and then when you get there, the wolves aren't really wolves. They're just people who want to love you and take care of you and have fun with you. And Dad always had an event for us, whether it was skiing or water skiing or whatever he had going on, he always had an event for us kids to do something with him, and it was great. But. then we had to come back, and we could never say to Mom we had a great time because we were with him. And then she would be, "Well, he's just doing that because..." or something like that. And then she would always take away any joy.

Dawn Taylor

She just couldn't let you be happy. Just couldn't let you actually enjoy it. You were super young when they got divorced, but do you remember anything at all about their divorce? What the reason was for it? Was there a lot of fighting? Was it expected? Was it just kind of out of the blue? Anything like that.

Anonymous Guest

I don't recall any of that. The story is that he was pipelining and he was up in northern BC. One of the other friends had called Mom and said, "You better get up here. He's living with another woman." And apparently mom jumped in the car, packed us kids in, drove us up there, and I'm sure she drove all through the night like a mad demon and banged on the door. And, yes, there was, in fact, a woman in the trailer who was living there, and that was it. Whatever happened after that, I don't know. I don't recall and that was that. The divorce happened, and then this happened in a time when divorce wasn't popular like, this was in the '60s. So, for women to divorce, you had failed. You were no good. There was a lot of negative connotations to being divorced, and both of my grandparents had tried to talk my mom out of it. It'd be easier if you just stayed married. It would be better for the kids but my mom was having none of it, so good for her. She was a bit of a pioneer in that. So, she was standing up for what she thought. But, at the same time, though, what she did is she took her anger out on him, but she kept it in the house with us and let it rot. And of course, it's made a lot of mixed emotions over the years amongst all of us. We all have our own little feelings and things about how we feel about Mom.

Dawn Taylor

Totally.

Anonymous Guest

But, it's interesting because I guess we're all sort of the same, but we're all kind of different, I guess, in our own way, depending on how we perceive our experience.

Dawn Taylor It would be very different based on age. Right? Some of your older siblings would have probably seen it more or had the ability to process it different or think about it different or be like, "What? No, that's not that person. What are you talking about?" But for you, you were four. You were a child and at such an impressionable age

Anonymous Guest

Oh, it was sitting there watching, I probably didn't really understand what was happening. But, seeing the other kids, their reactions, their happiness and then the let down, the constant crying, the disappointment and, I honestly don't think it was anything that my dad did, he went to work. He paid his child support. Now, child support, he was on a pipeline in northern BC. He probably had to open a bank account at the local account to take his checks. And then if they were allowed off early on payday to go into town and deposit their check, were they allowed to take cash out? Did you wire transfer back then? Did you?

Dawn Taylor

Yeah. This was not the era of "I'm going to take a photo of a check on my cell phone and e-transfer somebody."

Anonymous Guest

Exactly, right. So, if the money didn't get there in time, I'm sure she has her stories, too, where she was like, "We went without money and I had to take you kids over to your grandparents to get fed because there was no food in the fridge." And there was those stories as well that had happened, but, hey. But whatever it was, it was right? But nothing was ever her fault. Nothing was ever "Oh, okay, we got to wait two weeks or three weeks for that." It was "He was a bad person, and he did everything to hurt us." And sitting back now, I'm like, she was just such a complainer, and she just wanted whatever the reason was for the divorce, she apparently had no part of it, and none of it was her fault. She never did anything wrong. She was raising kids. She was raising the perfect family. She was a good mother. We were good kids. We were always clean, always, clothes were amended and all that kind of stuff. She was a good mother up until that time. But then from that point on, it was manipulation. And I want to say deceit, but I don't know if that's the right word. But just the pain and the anger that she had, she projected all of that onto us kids in her behavior.

Dawn Taylor

So, when did you realize she was a narcissist? That was probably ten years ago. Because I'm the kind of person, if you're good to me, I'm good to you, right? And let's be friends and let's do that. But, when the parent relationship is really, the child-parent relationship is really hard, because the child goes back to the parent for reassurance, for love, for all of those nurturing things that you need to help go on. And as I grew up well, growing up was hell, because there was always the cycle of Dad would phone on Sunday nights. Every Sunday night, he'd phone right around supper time because he knew us kids would be home. The phone was on the in the kitchen, or the phone was on the desk by the table, and that's where you had to sit and talk on the phone. So she heard every word, and she would natter and bitch in the background about whatever it was. "Tell him you need new shoes" and then "You need to send some money for shoes" or whatever it is. And she was always in the background. The two of them would have horrendous fights on the phone. And of course, it was always ended up with hang up and yelling and screaming and, "He's a jerk." and whatever other choice words she used. So we were never allowed to enjoy him and learn who he was because there was always her in the background chirping about it negatively, and it reflected on that. So growing up, there was always that dread for Sunday because you'd get the phone call. And it wasn't that we didn't want to talk to him, it's, we didn't want to deal with her. And she just made it miserable for us to live in the house with her. As soon as my siblings could, they left. They'd all moved out.

Dawn Taylor

You were the very last one.

Anonymous Guest

Yeah.

Dawn Taylor

Probably the worst of it. I think she mellowed out. She started to mellow out a little bit, but definitely, I want to say she had her claws in me. So being the youngest, I wanted a mother. I needed a mother to nurture me and see me through and all of that. But when I would turn to her and ask her things, it would be, "You just sound like your father. Have you been talking to him again?" or I had a cousin who is my dad's sister's child. We were quite close when we were younger, and whenever her and I would get together, we'd come away, and I would be like, "We had so much fun. I didn't want to leave." So, of course, you're like, "I don't want to go, mom. Let's stay." And she'd be like, "We have to go now. It's time." And then we'd get in the car, and you didn't get a backhand, but, holy, you got a tongue lashing. "You embarrassed me. When it's time to go, we have to go. And you're acting I'm not going to take you over here. You're acting just like a brat. Just like she is." and all of that stuff that would come out of it. So, she wasn't just a narcissist from the divorce. She definitely had some manipulation tactics in there as a parent,

Dawn Taylor

Big time.

Anonymous Guest

But she had got remarried, and that didn't go well for us kids. They stayed happily well. They stayed married for many years until he passed away. But when they got married, she did everything for him. And we, as kids felt like she had set us aside. So, all of her efforts went into him, cooking for him, making the meals that he wanted, doing the things that he wanted to do, doing the things for his children who lived with their other mother, with their mother. And then we just felt like we were backseat nuisance children after that. And of course, then my other siblings moved out and then me being left at home, and then the story just goes on, but the continuation of the guilt that we were made to feel because we wanted to have a relationship with our father.

Dawn Taylor

How old were you when your mom got remarried?

Anonymous Guest

Six.

Dawn Taylor

Okay, so it was fairly quick.

Anonymous Guest

Yeah.

Dawn Taylor

I shouldn't say that. It's like, oh, my gosh. It's not like it was the next day, but reasonably fast. With that, something that's so interesting about narcissists is they always choose their favorites, right? And they do. They choose the favorite that is like their person or people, and then everybody else gets pushed aside, and they'll often pit them against each other.

Anonymous Guest

Oh, that's interesting. Amongst us siblings, my sister and I, we would joke that my brother was the favorite, and he's the one that's older than me, the next to me, and he's a lovely, high-caring, high-emotional human being. But she gets to nurture him. She got to nurture him, and he was the kind of person that accepted it. But, he drives her crazy to this day until being an adult, getting to know him and talking about how things are like, my sister and I would laugh and say, "Well, he's the favorite." And in a way, maybe in her eyes, he is, because he needs nurturing and is somebody for her to dote on. But in his eyes, I really think he saw it as, he was singled out. I don't know. He just felt maybe guilty for getting the extra attention.

Dawn Taylor

That is huge and common as an adult is realizing that. And they do. There is an emotional manipulation and a complete favoritism of one child. And that child typically never gets the lashings the same, they don't get the yelling the same. They don't get any of that. And it's very controlled.

Anonymous Guest

Well, that would explain–

Dawn Taylor

--very controlled.

Anonymous Guest

When he got divorced, him and his wife were, they were married, and they decided to split up. Their daughter was probably two or three years old. Wow. My mom got involved, and my sister-in-law put a quick end to that, and she was having no part of it. It was not my mother's divorce. It was none of her business, and she was not to be involved and no phoning her anymore, and that was the end of that. So then my mom turned away from that, and now my sister-in-law is a total biatch and she lost control.

Dawn Taylor

100%. She lost her control.

Anonymous Guest

She lost all of that control. And then my mom was saying things about, "Well, what's going to happen to my granddaughter now?" And all this stuff, and it's like, "Really? You think they're going to raise her poorly? You think they're going to throw her in the street now because they're divorced?" It was just absolutely ridiculous, the things that my mother would say about my sister-in-law. And I didn't see her for quite a few years in between, because when this was happening, I was a teen and doing my own thing, living my own life, but I wasn't involved in it. But, when I did see her later on as an adult, we just laughed. We just laughed. We have a hoot together. When we do get together now with my niece, we chat and chitchat and she's an awesome lady. She raised an amazing girl.

Dawn Taylor

But it's interesting, it's there is such a beautiful connection, if it's safe to say, between the kids, typically, that weren't the favorite, or people from the outside looking in. So, growing up, I always find it interesting too, how it doesn't matter. even though they're divorced, they're remarried, everything's moved on, they still will not let go of that hatred, right? They still need to pitch you against that parent. So growing up, you're forced to see the parent to a degree because of custody and all those things. But let's talk about that relationship with your dad, how that progressed as you got older. Because as a child, it's easy. You see him every summer, you see him every holiday. It's way more simplified. But, as we become teens and as we grow up and as we become adults and all those things and there's not like a set visitation schedule, how did your relationship with your dad go?

Anonymous Guest

It was great. We lived in Edmonton. And when I became of age, dad lived west of town. He lived close to Jasper, so there would be lots of times I would just say "I want to go see Dad this weekend." And Mom would drive me down to the bus depot and I'd ride the bus out to where he was, and I'd hang out with him for the weekend. And he had a business, and of course, he had to work on Saturday. So, I went to work with him and he challenged me. "Can you do this? Can you try this?" And I was this shy, little kid who was quiet and happy reading a book or coloring in my coloring book and Dad threw me out there, and he was like, "Come on. We got to go talk to these people. We have business to do. This is how business was run. You have to learn how to do this." which was totally good for me because I'm being an entrepreneur today. I'm sure I draw on some of that.

Dawn Taylor

Totally.

Anonymous Guest

But we'd be driving around in the truck and didn't matter where we were. We always had something to talk about. And sometimes it turned into apparent information giving section session. Or somewhat a lecture. But he always talked. He always talked. We always talked. Whether it was music, horses, business, skiing. We always had a conversation.

Dawn Taylor

Emotions are good. Emotions are good. These conversations often bring up emotions in people, and it's good. We need to process some feels.

Anonymous Guest

Yeah, there's so much there. There's so much history.

Dawn Taylor

Oh, there is. So how did that continue throughout your life? Like, did your mom continue your entire life to try to pit you against your dad? Or did she ever finally so she never, ever just accepted it?

Anonymous Guest

Never stopped. Even to the point where I was about 15, and my mom and her new husband, they had a business, and of course they were drinking, and they were drinking a lot. All the time. I was at home all nights by myself. I'd go to bed, there'd be nobody at home. Get up for school in the morning, and everybody's still in bed. And I'd go to school and do what I had to do and lived my life on my own as an independent teenager, and in my opinion, they worked, they drank, they got drunk, they went to bed. It's pretty much how it happened. And I don't remember what happened, but something had come up, an event came up. We didn't end up going to it. I was upset, and I got on the bus and I rode out to my dad. Didn't tell anybody I was going there.

Dawn Taylor

Oh, no.

Anonymous Guest

Got there and show up at his office, and he's like, "What are you doing here?" And he's like, "I'm not going back. I'm moving in with you." And that was not good. In the feeling one way I was felt let down because he didn't want me to be there. So, there was part of that, but at the same time, "You're supposed to be living with your mother. You need to be with your mother." And this was him. This was coming from him, and so my brother got involved. Off we went, back to my mom's house, get there, and they're just getting up at the crack of bedtime or noon or whatever. And my dad's wife, actually, she took me away from the conversation. The conversation happened, and I stayed. And things apparently were supposed to get better living with my mom and her husband, but they didn't. And I finished high school. I went to school with my car packed, got my report card when school was done. Walked over to my mom or drove over to where she was at at work, dropped the report card off on her desk and left to move to Edmonton and never looked back.

Dawn Taylor

Wow. You needed out, like so badly needed out.

Anonymous Guest

Yeah.

Dawn Taylor

So how did your relationship continue at that point with your mom?

Anonymous Guest

It, well, funny thing. When I moved to the city, I moved in with my dad, but I was an adult.

Dawn Taylor

I was going to say he probably wanted you to live with him that whole time, but he also knew the wrath of your mom.

Anonymous Guest

Exactly. There was a secondary thing going on there. So, I moved in with him, lived with him for a while, went to school. They had a business at Edmonton. So I worked with them for the summer. Their business. My job ended at the end of summer and it was like, "Well, what are you going to do?" And I'm like, "I don't know. I'm fresh off the hick town, Albert. I don't know what I'm supposed to do."

Dawn Taylor

Living in this city.

Anonymous Guest

Living in the city. I don't know anybody. I don't know what to do. So I looked back. I moved back home with my mom.

Dawn Taylor

Oh my goodness.

Anonymous Guest

Yeah, and then thought I lived there. That worked for about six months, I think, and then I met up with a friend that I went to school with and moved back to Edmonton and went back to school and went to college. And, I was like, "Okay, I got to be a big girl and stand on own two feet." But I still had a relationship with my mom, not so much with my dad. It was hard with my dad because his wife at that time, she was interesting during the time that I was living with them. My brother started going through his divorce at the same time, and he ended up actually living there as well. And, he didn't want us there. So some conflict happened. My brother and I both moved out and moved on, but all of that was a tipping point. And I boiled over. I was okay, but emotionally, I couldn't deal with it all. So I had ceased seeing my dad. And so I was, what, 20, 21? Something like that. And I didn't see my dad till line was 35. The reason now I singled him out. But I always looked to my mom for that maternal support, that hug, that emotional support that you needed. And with her always saying, "He's the bad guy." I couldn't deal with the conflict, but I needed the maternal support, so I stay with her. And it took me a long time to realize that I needed him as well.

Dawn Taylor

Totally. Interesting, though, looking back, the manipulation was that strong. Do you know what I mean? My mom often would say horrible things about my dad. She was very negative about my dad, and she wasn't a narcissist, but she forever put him down. And it's interesting right now as adults being like, wow, even when we were old enough to know better, even when, experience-wise, it wasn't proven, that was such a core, fundamental belief as to who he was, right. And I can't imagine ‘=on your side, right, having had that start at the age of four and the overt manipulation of it your entire life, right, at 20, 21, at that age, we are so immature, right? Like, we think we're adults, we think we know everything, and we are so naive and immature, and we see one very tiny perspective of everything, right? Like, one very tiny side of everything. But that was like, the 16, 17 years of hatred towards him probably are what stole those years from you in a way.

Anonymous Guest

It did. It honestly did. But at the same time, me. I had to do something for myself and I went to counseling. I talked to a counselor, and just, you know, what is it? That was the first time that I was able to talk to somebody about my perspective, and they wanted to know what I had to say and what my opinion was. So, that was kind of cool to be able to have that and then my last session with the lady, she was like, Cheryl, you know exactly what you want to do. Trust yourself. Just reassured me that my feelings were valid. And what I was thinking was as a child, you're sitting back and you're going, "Well, this is my mom. My mom says stuff. It should be true. Well, this is my dad. My dad says, it should be true." And my dad was never, he would be like, "Well, that's your mom talking. That's how she talks. We just have to deal with her. But as we got older, he would just call her a crazy biatch because how else do you describe it? But he was never the one to say, "Don't be with her." or he never tried to have us not see her, right? He always, I don't know, knew we had to be there or something. But she was the one who would just constantly talk about him. And it was like I said, the Sunday phone call every week. The month before we were going on summer holidays. Same thing. There was that torment that she would the lead up of us leaving to go on vacation with him. Always. 

Dawn Taylor

So as an adult. So you didn't see your dad for a really long time. Still had your mom in your life, except for she's busy with husband and everything else. What was it that finally triggered a relationship? Back with your dad? 

Anonymous Guest

It was my grandmother, my mother's mother 

Dawn Taylor

Wow. 

Anonymous Guest

Yeah, I was down there one day at her house, and we were chatting, and I don't know how it came up, but I found out afterwards that she was talking to my dad on the phone, that she talked to him every month. And probably, I talked to him every month since they got divorced. 

Dawn Taylor

Interesting. 

Anonymous Guest

But I never knew what they talked about or how often or anything like that. But she just looked at me and she said, you deserve a relationship with your dad. 

Dawn Taylor

That's an interesting word, deserve, when it's something that's been thrown in your face your whole life. And I don't know, there's something about the word deserve that just hit me right in the feels there when you said it, right? It's like no, it's not you should have a relationship, or you must have a relationship, or why don't you have a relationship? It's like, "No, you deserve to have a relationship with your dad. This is something that you

deserve." A powerful word.

Anonymous Guest

Why she chose those words, I don't know. But she was a very smart lady. 

Dawn Taylor

And she probably knew she knew

your mom. 

Anonymous Guest

Oh, absolutely. 

Dawn Taylor

She knew your mom. 

Anonymous Guest

We live down the street.

Dawn Taylor

Right? She would have seen, like, while she may have not wanted to admit what was all going on, she also would have experienced all of it. 

Anonymous Guest

Well, I'm sure there would have been a lot of conversations that happened, because, like, me going to my mom, I'm sure my mom went to hers. 

Dawn Taylor

Absolutely.

Anonymous Guest

To have the conversation of "This is how I feel." or "This is what's happened." that type of thing. And my grandma was very involved. Like, she lived down the street from us. She was at the other end of the block, so there was a lot of interaction there. But for grandma to come up and say, "You deserve this." It was a reassurance that it was okay for me to do it. 

Dawn Taylor

Yeah, well, that you could have it, and I guess that it was even more powerful because it was your mom's mom. Right? So it was like this connection to your mom, this person that you had wanted and craved this maternal relationship with your entire life, that I don't know if a lot of narcissists can have, right? There's so much of it is about a manipulation that it's not actually a real love, it's not actually a real thing. And I know that was one of the hardest things with my mom, is acknowledging the fact that my mom couldn't ever be who I needed her to be, right? Like, there was no way that my mom would ever be able to actually show up in the way I needed her to or love me in the way I needed her to, or comfort me in the way I needed her to. But to hear that from her mom, right, who is this other maternal figure in your life.

Anonymous Guest

In any family, you have team dad and team mom, right? So you have maternal and the fraternal, and they never seem to get along, and they never seem to come together as one. So it's like team one and team two, and who's going to win the game? So when my grandmother came to me, it was wisdom. It was power in those words.

Dawn Taylor

Absolutely.  But also so far out of what should have been said. Do you know what I mean? It needed to have be said. But team one and two don't mix. Get back in team two. You're on the wrong side of this game right now.

Anonymous Guest

Well, and this is it. It shouldn't be like that, right? At one time, they all lived in the same town, so they all knew each other. They all had dinner together, all went to the coffee shop together, and then they moved. But, my mother split everything apart where it had to be her or them, and she emotionally made it that way for me, where if I would have stayed dealing with both of them, if I would have had the vocabulary and the skill set to be able to have a conversation with my dad or my mom and say, "This is what I want, or this is what I need." it would have been different. But I didn't have that, because with my mom growing up, if I ever went to her and said, "Hey, mom, dad phoned." I don't know what to do. Whatever it would just be. And then you'd have the whole 20 years of history of what a rotten person he was. So then right away, my decision was, "Oh, I won't go do that with him. I won't go. I'll just stay here." Because it must be bad if she's saying all of this, and when you always have that influence, why do you ever want to go over there, right? And it was funny because most parents, when they tell you not to do something, you do it. But with this, it was constant. It was there from day one. And it was just beaten into my head that this is the way it was. 

Dawn Taylor

So, then you have this conversation with your dad and reignite this relationship. How did your mom take that? 

Anonymous Guest

Well, that was, she was, she was very "Oh." and there's, you know, that meme where that one just sits there and just goes, "Oh." and then just stops. I had gotten married, was pregnant, and I invited my mom out for dinner. So her and I went for dinner. She came, picked me up, we went out for dinner, did our thing, and then there was all these little snips the whole time we were having our meal about my father. And then we got back to the house, and I was like, "Okay, I'm in a safe spot. I can do this." I opened the car door. I stood outside the car and just said to her, "I will not let you do to this child what you did to me. This stops now, or you will never see this child." and closed the door and walked away. And I guess that was my warning call to her. It was big. It took her a couple to phone me, but then we also cooled her jets a little bit. She didn't stop, but she did slow down, and she decided not to talk to him. And it got me thinking, maybe somebody just needed to stand up to her all these years and stop this poor behavior that she was doing. Maybe that's all that needed to happen. Dad did. Every time he'd see her, he would not stand down from an argument from her, and nor would she. But, as kids, we were kids. We were the kids. We were the ones that she was somehow protecting. But, she didn't realize how badly I was wounded out of it and how she alienated me, because there's definitely a feeling now when I look at my dad and I feel very differently towards my dad than I do my mom, and my mom is she's starting to have some senior memory issues. Not sure if there's been a diagnosis there or not, but I look at my mom and I see this woman who's turning into this very sweet, kind, daughter-y memory loss kind of person and I look at her and I'm like, I have negative feelings. I am probably more angry with her now than I was as a kid. And my dad, we talk every week, sometimes twice, 

Dawn Taylor

Which is very understandable. I think it's very- you guys can't see this, but her puppy just jumped up on her lap. I think. He was like, "I need to just love on my mommy right now because she's feeling some feels." It's interesting now as her actions are changing and her behaviors are changing, right? It's almost like she gets to forget the past and she gets to forget the hurt and she gets to forget everything that went down and all of the anger and all of the pain and all of of things. Yet for her children, many of you are probably just starting to process it and actually be like, "Hey, wait a sec. That wasn't okay. Those weren't okay behaviors when we were kids and that wasn't okay to make us hate our dad like that." 

Anonymous Guest

Yeah. And it definitely and, for me, there's going to be no resolve with her. She is never going to say to me, "I was wrong or what I did didn't help you grow. I'm sorry." There's never ever going to be that. And for that, I resent her. But then I sit there and I look at it. I'm like, "Well, I guess karma is biting you. You're losing your memory. And if it's Alzheimer's or whatever, there's your karma." 

Dawn Taylor

I shouldn't laugh. Do you think that she even has the emotional intelligence or the ability to? Because especially if she is a narcissist, and if you've done any of the research on narcissism and what emotional capacity they actually have and how they actually like, their brains fundamentally are so different. I remember talking to a client one time, and I was like and I said, "You can't understand why your husband would act this horrible to you, because it's not even a comprehension for you in the back. The darkest parts of your brain can't even comprehend his actions and behaviors on a daily basis, because you don't actually even have those parts in your brain." So when we look at our parents and we look at the things that have gone wrong and what they've done and their actions and all those things, it is a thing. I see it every day in trauma work with clients, is the closure that they wish they could have on a relationship, the stories, all of these things that they wish they could have. But part of it is looking at it and being like, "I don't even know my parent has that." It's like going to your mom's house to cook lasagna and she doesn't have lasagna noodles, and then being really mad, you can't make lasagna, right? And then holding that against her forever. But it's like, "No, she's never actually owned a ground beef, cottage cheese, lasagna noodles, tomato sauce." Right? Do you think that that could be a piece of it and maybe something that's going to have to be a process for you at some point is that, that's not even something that she doesn't actually believe she did anything wrong, so why would she apologize? 

Anonymous Guest

Exactly. And in her mind, she didn't do anything wrong. No matter how vindictive her behavior was, she felt she was justified in doing it. She was driven by anger, by jealousy, by rage, all of those things. And her actions were not sound, but she was justified in doing it in her mind. And you can't argue with that because when you feel you're right, you're right, and you can't change anybody's mind. So, the fact that she feels that she was right, that's her story. That's how she sees it. But, the manipulation that she did with us children is now, we're smarter. In this day and age, we're smarter. My daughter has lots of friends who are in blended families. And one parent drops them off, the other parent picks them up. There's conversation that's happy. They exchange positive words, and then they go on their way, and I see this all the time, and I'm mesmerized by it. It's like I've stepped into the Twilight Zone that divorced people can actually have a conversation and, 

Dawn Taylor

Oh, not all of them There are some that can. And I wish more did. 

Anonymous Guest

But for my mother, she felt she was right but I think she was so vindictive. She wanted to do everything she could to somehow hurt him because he had hurt her. And her vindictiveness and revenge that came out of that went so deep into her soul that she needed to do whatever she could. And it didn't matter what happened around her.

Dawn Taylor

Can you imagine being her husband? Like, total side note, can you imagine a.) Life happened, but from your dad's perspective, being married to her, because if she was that way with anger towards him, was she that way with anger towards anybody who wronged her in her life

Anonymous Guest

And, well, right now, the story starts to evolve because I never sat back and analyzed what had happened, but she had alienated herself from my grandparents. And I wonder why? Because at some point in that time, they probably said, "This is wrong, or you're doing wrong." She alienated herself from them. She didn't take us to their house anymore. If we went to see my dad's parents, my dad took us. She was either not welcomed anymore, or she chose not to go and then throughout time in history, we see these other things that have happened where she was in a political position, and then shortly after her political position ended, she moved out of town. And us kids, we were laughing. Well, we just say she got ran out because she pissed off the wrong people. She got run out of town, or she chose to move because they wouldn't do what she wanted. 

Dawn Taylor

She had no control there.

Anonymous Guest

Yeah, and different relationships. So she had a brother, him and his wife, there was a rift. I can't even remember what happened. Not my business. Wasn't my problem. I was at a family funeral a month ago, and my aunt came up to me, and she goes, "Thank you for talking to us." And I was like, "What?" And she goes, "Well, thanks for talking to us. Whenever we get together, you always stop and you always say hi and see how we're doing and whatnot. Thank you. Thank you for talking to us. I'm glad that you still talk to us." And, I just kind of zoned in, and I just looked at her and I said, "Whatever's going on, that's not my fight, and I'm not going to fight that." And she just gave me a big hug and she said, "You're a good girl." and walked away. Right? She had to go talk to other people and left me flabbergasted. This many years after all of this stuff that happened, that it was her, it was my mother who did all this. She did it. I don't know if it was structured, but she thought out her plan of revenge and the fallout in our household, how it hurt us, and she continued to do it, not just with my father, but with other relationships. If she didn't get her way, she would cause strife and havoc and go on with it, and I think I know there was things with my grandmother with different siblings. There was always family dynamics and stuff there that happened, but my grandma was she was not a fighter. She fought. She fought, but she wasn't vindictive, right? And she was supportive, but yeah, the pattern continued. So now as a mature adult with children of my own, I sit back and I just think, how could that have happened? How could a parent do that and not realize what they're doing to their children and. 

Dawn Taylor 

When their child's a pawn in the game, they don't and I also think there's all these lines out there and these statements out there of like, "Oh, they're resilient, they'll figure it out, they'll be fine." I have seen the other side of it too, where they've actually they convinced themselves to the core of their being that the other person is actually that evil and they are actually that bad and they are actually that horrible, that they've created a story in their head that they are actually doing what's best for their child and they can't see beyond it. I've seen it. I've seen it way too many times in my life where they actually do think that and not in a positive, like, "I'm doing what's best, but no, I'm protecting, I am protecting my child from this horrible person, this awful relationship." I'm not saying that that's what your mom was doing.

Anonymous Guest

But her behavior and her actions was always vengeance on him. It was always vengeance on him and anything to do with him. She was always angry with him and always told everybody about how angry and then how bad he was. So did she plot against him? Absolutely. Did she do things to try and destroy him? Absolutely. But what she didn't realize is that us children were not resilient. We survived. Did we survive it well? No. Because with each one of us kids, we have our own issues, right? And even today, talking about this, I'm emotional. The hurt comes back. Pain. It all comes back. But, I know that it's not me. I know that I didn't cause it. I know when I talk to my daughter about her bad day at school or her running with her friend, I let her talk. I listen to her, and I say, "I don't know how to help you with this but I'm here for you. Let's talk about it." And I take that approach because I have no skills. Those skills because I was taught to be vengeful or wasn't taught but–

Dawn Taylor

That's what you witnessed. Yeah.

Anonymous Guest

My witness a witness being, you striked out against everybody all the time, and that's not me. That's not my personality. When my daughter and I talk, "How do you feel about this? How did that make you feel? What would you like to do next time?" We try and talk through the steps to try and help her prepare. So when conflict does come, she has some emotional shield. She has some verbal things that she can say, and then she can use her head to get herself out of the situation. But when my daughter says to me, "Mom, I don't know why you talk to Grandma. She's just a narcissist, and she goes off on her rant." and then I try and tune her in and just say, "Hey, we got to talk with respect about people." And we've talked about it, and yeah, it's just, it is what it is and you go on with it every day. 

Dawn Taylor

Would you have one word of advice for someone else that's listening to this going, "Hey, wait, I think I am the child that was in this situation." Do you have a word of advice for them or something you would like to say to be like, "Hey, this is it." Something to watch for, something to listen for, how to reach out different. 

Anonymous Guest

Trust your instincts, what you're feeling when that parent is talking to you and you're getting those feelings, realize what they are, investigate it, get counseling, whatever it is. Go talk to the other parent and say, this is what's happening. Let the other parent know what's going on. And then try and work through it together. If you can. If you can't, then seek help because it just continues, and you need to build your defenses. You need to build your own confidence in the situation so you can go with it and you can sit back and you can look at it one day and go, "Oh, parent is being manipulative to me. I'm just going to end it here. I'm not going to take this emotionally. It's not me." And you can put up your shield to protect yourself, but it also gives you coping skills to deal with it. 

Dawn Taylor

It's amazing. I think this is more common than you'd think. And I just want to thank you again as we finish, I just want to thank you again so much for being vulnerable and being open and being willing to talk about this. Even the term narcissism and narcissist hasn't come into play until this last little while. And I mean, it's being grossly overused these days. I will agree with that. But also think that within narcissistic tendencies, right? We all have a piece of us as narcissistic. Part of it's actually really healthy if you look into it, but it's the level that it's at that I don't think there's many people willing to talk about it that has lived it for such an extended period of time. But, there are a lot of kids right now coming out of it. I have clients in their 20s that were the not chosen child of a narcissist

that I'm working with, right, that I can't wait to send her this episode. To be like, "No, you need to like - this isn't going to end. Their behavior towards your other parent is not ever going to end. They're not going to magically be happy one day and healed one day and all these things." And you're going to have to deal with that and figure out how to have those shields, figure out how to have really healthy boundaries to protect yourself.

Anonymous Guest

Exactly. Because it doesn't end if you continue to have a relationship. Even if you don't have a relationship with a narcissistic parent, the emotion that is brought out in you from their behavior is there, and it's going to be there. It's going to be triggered by an episode in the future, whether it's you're walking your dog or petting your cat or you're talking to the neighbor, something's going to trigger that emotion, and it may not be there right now, but it will be there at some point because it always does. It always comes out.

Dawn Taylor

Yeah it totally will. Thank you. Thank you, my little floating head. I wish I was there to give you a hug right now. If anyone has any questions on this episode, they want to reach out. They want some advice on this, or they just even need the contact information of the floating head, reach out to me through my website, TheTaylorWay.ca, and I can ask permission for you because there was a - do we want this to be anonymous? Do we not want this to be anonymous? Where are we at? But, I also know the floating head personally outside of this, and I'm pretty sure if someone wanted to have a conversation about this that she would be more than willing. So my website is TheTaylorWay.ca. You guys should know that I say it every single week, but thank you for hanging out with us today. I hope that something you heard today hit home and even made you realize that someone in your life could use this episode or even that someone in your life is not behaving really well towards their own children. Join us again in two weeks for another amazing topic. Please tell your friends, the more people that feel misunderstood, the better. And check out their show notes located at TheTaylorWay.ca. We're also going to list some resources in there of some books. It may be some of the same ones as last time. If you haven't listened to our last episode, please go check out that one because it talks about the parent on the other side, right? The parent who's co parenting with a narcissist and the parental alienation. And she has some amazing resources on books and things you could read. So we'll link to that. Subscribe now on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. And if you love the show, it would mean the world to me. If you'd leave a rating or review.