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Roger Finke is distinguished professor emeritus of sociology and international affairs at Penn State University. Roger is also the founder of the Association of Religion Data Archives, which is an online archive of the best religion data available, a standard research tool for social scientists. He is the author of several books including the subject of today's interview: The Price of Freedom Denied: Religious Persecution and Conflict in the 21st Century (2011) co-authored with Brian Grim. 

In this book, Grim and Finke found that as religious freedoms are denied in a society, both by government and by social groups within a society, religious persecution increases. Given the quasi-establishments of evangelical Christianity developing throughout the land, it is important to be aware of the potential consequences of these church-state alliances.  

The Association of Religion Data Archives (ARDA) - www.thearda.com. The co-directors are Andrew Whitehead and Christopher Bader. Regular listeners will recall my interview with Andrew in episode 5. 

Music provided by Earl's Taco Shack and Jonus Fair. 

Artwork provided by Sarah Eshelman

Produced and hosted by Warren Throckmorton

The series will be on hold throughout the remainder of August while I complete The Christian Past That Wasn't, due out next year. You can pre-order it anywhere books are sold. The Amazon link is https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0FCCCP71V

The next episode will post sometime in September. Thanks for listening! 

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Today's segment is the second part of my interview with Paul Matzko, historian and senior program manager at the Institute for Humane Studies at George Mason University. Paul is also an adjunct scholar at the Cato Institute. Our topic today is Paul's answer to the question: has Christian nationalism ever worked? 

Listen in to find out. 

As a part of addressing the question, Paul tells the story of Quaker martyr Mary Dyer. 

Music provided by Earl's Taco Shack, Jonathan Swaim, and Jonus Fair. 

Artwork by Sarah Eshelman.

Hosted and produced by Warren Throckmorton

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Paul Matzko is a historian and senior program manager for AI and emerging technology at the Institute for Humane Studies at George Mason University. He is also an adjunct scholar at the Cato Institute and host of the Unintended Consequences podcast. 

Today, he joins me to discuss how Christian nationalism differs from citizen engagement with politics. Often Christian nationalists complain that they are simply living out their faith in the public square. However, Paul teases out the differences between policies which benefit the common good and those which are designed to benefit mainly or only Christians affiliated with the regime in power. 

This is part one of a two-part interview. Next week, I will have the conclusion where Paul talks about the bitter consequences of Christian nationalism and addresses the question: Has Christian nationalism ever worked?

Topics today:

• What is Christian nationalism?
• Christian nationalism and the ideology of South African apartheid
• Christian nationalism and Geralf L. K. Smith
• Billy Sunday and the Klan
• MAGA as the modern America First movement
• Christian nationalism is a different faith than orthodox Christianity
• Christian nationalism and public schools
• and much more...

Music today is provided by Earl's Taco Shack, Jonus Fair, and Dustin Blatnik.

Hosted and produced by Warren Throckmorton

Artwork by Sarah Eshelman

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This segment includes a significant amount of a recent interview with historican and author Jemar Tisby. Although I interviewed Jemar in the spring, the content is incredibly timely and relevant now. In this discussion, we cover the Trump administration's war on due process, diversity programs, and foreign aid. 

A recurring theme is the grift, greed, and cruelty of the Trump administration's Christian nationalism. Jemar challenges listeners to speak the truth and act to preserve our freedoms.   

From the segment: "To put it in Christian terms, White Christian nationalism is wrong on a lot of levels, but if you want to talk about a very basic level, it's a violation of the third commandment: thou shalt not take the Lord's name in vain. Which of course doesn't refer to to cussing or using bad words. It's fundamentally about not doing things in God's name that God would never condone."

In response to the interview and recent events, I ask: Why is an administration which claims the US is a Christian nation known for its cruelty rather than compassion?"

SHOW NOTES:

Jemar Tisby's Substack: http://jemartisby.substack.com

Non-violence training with the King Center, July 19, Noon-3pm (et): https://jemartisby.substack.com/p/train-in-nonviolence-with-the-king

The Spirit of Justice: https://jemartisby.com/the-spirit-of-justice/

Music provided by Earl's Taco Shack, Dustin Blatnik, and Jonus Fair. 

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Today I feature an interview with Katherine Stewart, the author of the New York Time bestseller Money, Lies, and God: Inside the Movement to Destroy American Democracy.  The segment is timely in that we discuss income disparities accentuated by the passage of the recent Trump budget. The dominance of Christian nationalism in the current administration isn't helping many of the foot soldiers who helped bring Trump to power. 

Katherine discusses her new book and much more. Here is a sampling of topics:

• The uneasy coalitions in Christian nationalism and MAGA world
• The lifeblood of Christian nationalism: bad history
• Religious liberty means the freedom to do what Christian nationalists want to do
• Religion is a tool of autocratic leaders
• The threat of the New Right to American governance
• Power is what unites the religion of the New Right
• David Barton (Where's Waldo) is still active
• The rank and file are ultimately victims of the theology of power

CREDITS:

Music is provided by Earl's Taco Shack and Jonus Fair. Artwork is by Sarah Eshelman. 

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Why are Christian nationalists angry about the New York City Democratic mayoral primary victory of Zohran Mamdani? They surely are. Many are blaming "unchecked" immigration for his win. White Christians nationalist fear they are being replaced by too many non-Christians and too many black and brown people. In light of this event and the overall attacks on immigrants taking place in Trump's America, have I got a segment for you. We also hear from a founding father on why Muslims should not be discriminated against. 

In contrast to prior episodes, this one features one guest: Sociologist Andrew Whitehead. Andrew is associate professor of sociology at Indiana University-Purdue University Indianapolis, where he codirects the Association of Religion Data Archives at the Center for the Study of Religion and American Culture. He is also the author of American Idolatry: How Christian Nationalism Betrays the Gospel and Threatens the Church (2023) and co-author with Samuel Perry of Taking America Back for God: Christian Nationalism in the United States (2020). 

The focus of the episode is what Christian nationalists fear, which is almost everything. Andrew does a wonderful job of breaking down what Christian nationalists fear and how fear is related to Christian nationalism. We also discussed why the Christian aspect of Christian nationalism isn't enough for Christian nationalists. It is good and proper to discuss the deficits in Christian nationalist history, but it is also important to understand the psychology behind the Christians who seek comfort in nationalism. 

This isn't all about psychology; there is some history too. We hear from James Iredell, an early Supreme Court justice who has a good word for us today. 

Music provided by Earl's Taco Shack, Jonathan Swaim, and Dustin Blatnik. 

Hosted and produced by Warren Throckmorton

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Be it resolved: America's founders established a secular government with provision for a religious people. When the delegates met in Philadelphia in the summer of 1787, they deliberately prevented the government from favoring any religion. Then when the Bill of Rights were added, freedom of religious expression was guaranteed. 

Those who wanted a Christian government at the time were upset at what they called the religious defect in the Constitution. They were honest enough to admit what today's Christian nationalists often cover up: The Constitution is not a Christian document and the nation was not founded on the basis of Christianity. 

The Christian myths surrounding the Constitutional Convention and Constitution came out later. At the time, most people recognized that the founding was secular. 

This is a bonus episode with regular segments to return in July. 

Music provided by Earl's Taco Shack. Segment written by Warren Throckmorton

Artwork: Sarah Eshelman

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Recently, David Barton and Matt Krause testified in front of the Texas House of Representatives Public Education committee. Barton and Krause both said some historically questionable things to support the placement of the Ten Commandments in every Texas classroom. A premise of this podcast is that it takes faulty history to pursue Christian nationalist goals, one of which is to erode separation of church and state. 

Texas Representatives John Bryant and James Talarico scrutinized Barton's and Kruse's arguments and determined that placing a Christian version of the Ten Commandments in every Texas classroom was unfair and un-American. 

The episode begins with a passionate appeal by Bryant and Talarico for fairness and ends with an analysis of faulty history which is being used to oppose fairness. 

Music provided by Earl's Taco Shack (Gulf of Mexico Blues, Nebula); Jeremiah Lawson (Sonata for Guitar in A minor), and Jonus Fair (The Rest is History).

Written and produced by Warren Throckmorton

The podcast will be on break until June. Watch for new episodes with material from Andrew Whitehead, Katherine Stewart, Roger Finke, Jemar Tisby, Jeremie Beller, and much more in the second half of season two. 

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In this segment, I examine the notion that there was something remarkably Christian about America's founding era. Last week, I fact-checked Charlie Kirk's viral video defense of the belief that America was founded as a Christian nation in the legal sense. Most of what Kirk had to say was irrelevant or incorrect. 

Today, I consider an overview of moral and religious failings during the founding era. Along with guests Jemar Tisby, Mark Noll, George Marsden, Caleb Campbell, and Aaron Cowan, I contradict Charlie Kirk's call to return to America's Christian roots. In fact, those roots don't seem very Christian when one considers the injustice and atrocities throughout the historical record.

From the segment: "With slavery, treachery, mass murder, betrayal and theft embedded in the legacy of the nation, what does it matter how many times a Supreme Being is mentioned in the Declaration of Independence or if the Liberty Bell has Leviticus on it?"

Written and produced by Warren Throckmorton

Music provided by Earl's Taco Shack, Jonathan Swaim, and Jonus Fair  

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In 2024, Charlie Kirk distributed a five-minute video defense of the idea that America was founded as a Christian nation. It has been played at least 20 million times on various social media platforms and is full of faulty history. This segment serves to correct the false claims and defend the proposition that America's founders set out to found a secular government with provision for religious pluralism. Unfortunately, this only applied to white males at first. 

Kirk and his fellow Christian nationalists use a variety of false stories to prop up a vision of a Christian American founding. They want to go back to that mythical time. In this segment, historians Aaron Cowan, Randall Balmer, and George Marsden, English professor Matthew Boedy, and co-host Michael Coulter join me to debunk Kirk's false claims and advocate for good history and religious pluralism.

For primary sources referred to in this segment, see this link: https://warrenthrockmorton.substack.com/p/charlie-kirks-christian-america  

Written and produced by Warren Throckmorton. Music provided by Earl's Taco Shack and Jonus Fair.