The Christian Past That Wasn't: Formerly Telling Jefferson Lies

Send us Fan Mail

Often debates focus on Christian nationalism and the problems which come from blurring the line between church and state. In this episode, I end the Telling Jefferson Lies series with some thoughts and testimony from experts about what is good about separation.

Helping me close out the series are:

Randall Balmer, John Phillips Chair in Religion, Dartmouth College
Caleb Campbell, Pastor, Desert Springs Bible Church, Phoenix, AZ
Michael Coulter, Professor, Political Science and Humanities, Grove City College
Greg Forster, theologian, Trinity International University
Charles Haynes,  senior fellow for religious liberty at the Freedom Forum
Paul Kemeny, Dean of Arts and Letters, Grove City College
Joel McDurmon, Attorney, theologian
Glenn Sunshine, Colson Fellows

The closing song is Gemini by Robo Surgeon Fish. You can add it to your Spotify playlist here: https://open.spotify.com/track/6vqnUYyOrqLAWudh6Z5B5x?si=d76ccbb6edb94cfc

Theme Song: The World Awaits Us All, Roman Candle

Background Music: Jonathan Swaim, Robo Surgeon Fish, Warren Throckmorton

Telling Jefferson Lies was written, produced, and hosted by Warren Throckmorton

To see what's next, follow my blog/substack at warrenthrockmorton.substack.com

For more information about the book Getting Jefferson Right, go to gettingjeffersonright.com. 

Send us Fan Mail

In 2005, Justice Sandra Day O'Connor asked an important question for those who would erode separation of church and state: "Why would we trade a system that has served us so well for one that has served others so poorly? "

I spend much of this episode affirming that we should not trade. Much of this series has been raising alarm about Christian nationalism and supporting separation of church and state. This episode assembles an all-star cast of experts in favor of a strong separation position. Joining me are:

Randall Balmer: John Phillips Chair in Religion at Dartmouth College
Rob Boston: Editor, Church & State magazine
Charles Haynes: Senior fellow at the Freedom Forum 
Troy Jackson: Historian, civil rights activist, founder of Undivided
George Marsden: Professor of history, emeritus, Notre Dame University
Mark Noll: Professor of history, emeritus, Notre Dame University
Jemar Tisby: Historian, author, civil right activist

Show Notes:

The closing song is Twisting History by Jonus Fair and the theme song is The World Awaits Us All by Roman Candle. Background music is provided by Jonathan Swaim and yours truly. 

Thanks to Grove City College Social Work professor Jennifer Hollenberger for the opening affirmation!

Thanks to Rob Boston for the tip on the O'Connor Question. 

For more information about the book Getting Jefferson Right, go to gettingjeffersonright.com. 

Send us Fan Mail

In this segment, I argue that Christian nationalism is bad for religion in general and bad for Christianity in the specific case. This segment sets up the finale which argues that separation of church and state is a benefit to the United States and should be strengthened. 

If you like experts and multiple voices, this is the segment for you. Here is the lineup:

Randall Balmer, John Phillips Chair in Religion, Dartmouth College
Paul Kemeny, Dean of Arts and Letters, Grove City College
Bob Smietana, Journalist, Religion News Service
Caleb Campbell, Pastor, Desert Springs Bible Church, Phoenix, AZ
George Marsden, Professor of history, emeritus, Notre Dame University
Mark Noll, Professor of history, emeritus, Notre Dame University
Katherine Stewart, Author, journalist
John Fea, Professor of history, Messiah University
Greg Thornbury, Author “Why Should The Devil Have All The Good Music?
Charles Haynes,  senior fellow for religious liberty at the Freedom Forum
Jonathan Larsen, journalist
Greg Forster, theologian, Trinity International University

SHOW NOTES:

The closing song is Old Time Religion by the Tuskegee Institute Singers.

The Telling Jefferson Lies theme song is The World Awaits Us All by Roman Candle

Background music provided by Jonathan Swaim, Dustin Blatnik, Warren Throckmorton

For more information, go to gettingjeffersonright.com.

Send us Fan Mail

In this short bonus episode, Dartmouth College professor Randall Balmer provides an introduction to reasons why he doesn't see the U.S. as a Christian nation. 

Dr. Balmer is the John Phillips Chair in Religion at Dartmouth College. He has spoken at numerous colleges and universities, including where I met him, Grove City College. 

Balmer has published more than a dozen books, including Redeemer: The Life of Jimmy Carter, God in the White House: How Faith Shaped the Presidency from John F. Kennedy to George W. Bush, and Bad Faith: Race and the Rise of the Religious Right. His second book, Mine Eyes Have Seen the Glory: A Journey into the Evangelical Subculture in America, now in its fifth edition, was made into an award-winning, three-part documentary for PBS.

Two more regular segments are planned with the series concluding by the end of April.  I hope to post some additional bonus episodes after the final regular segment.

Closing song today is Ain't No Grave by LoFi Hymnal.
https://open.spotify.com/track/4Gi1aZgcQdXvBZECPyKXhG?si=b93eb41870914f66

Background music by Jonathan Swaim and Warren Throckmorton

Telling Jefferson Lies is hosted, written, and produced by Warren Throckmorton. For more information about the podcast or the book Getting Jefferson Right, go to gettingjeffersonright.com. 

Send us Fan Mail

In general terms, I believe Christian nationalism is bad history, bad politics, and bad religion. In prior episodes, I have concentrated on the bad history. In this segment and the next, I focus mainly on the bad politics. Around the world, religious nationalism is associated with state sponsored violence against citizens, use of force to take political control, erosion of the separation of church and state, degrading of democratic principles and attacks on minority rights. I believe Christian nationalism is also bad for Christianity which I will examine in the next episode.

Note: I did not mention that long time Fellowship leader Doug Coe passed away in 2017. I believe that explains some of the shifting within the Fellowship. Having said that, there always was an element within that group which didn't make a strong commitment to human rights.

Resources mentioned:

The Undertow: Scenes from a Slow Civil War by Jeff Sharlet.

The Family, Netflix documentary, by Jeff Sharlet.

Charismatic Revival Fury, podcast by Matthew Taylor, produced by Brad Onishi

Expert guests this segment: Dartmouth College historian and author Randall Balmer, Communications director at Americans United for the Separation of Church and State Rob Boston,  Louisville pastor and social worker Joel Bowman, Mount St Mary's University philosophy instructor Scott Coley, Grove City College social work associate professor Jennifer Hollenberger, historian Troy Jackson, journalist Jonathan Larsen, author and journalist Katherine Stewart, religion scholar with the Institute for Islamic, Christian and Jewish Studies Matthew Taylor, and historian and author Jemar Tisby. 

SHOW NOTES:

Telling Jefferson Lies is written, produced, and hosted by Warren Throckmorton. For more information about the podcast or the book Getting Jefferson Right, go to gettingjeffersonright.com. 

Today’s closing song is Debris by Roman Candle. Telling Jefferson Lies Theme song is The World Awaits Us All also by Roman Candle. See the show notes for more credits. Just two more episodes to go. Please like the podcast and spread the word on social media. Thanks for listening. 

Send us Fan Mail

As promised, here is the completion of my examination of David Barton's whitewashing of Thomas Jefferson. In our book Getting Jefferson Right: Fact-Checking Claims About Thomas Jefferson, Michael Coulter and I assume the position held by most scholars and the Thomas Jefferson Foundation when it comes to the paternity of Sally Hemings children, i.e., Thomas Jefferson was their father.

In The Jefferson Lies, David Barton deceives readers about what Madison Hemings said about his mother. Here is what Barton said Hemings told a Pike County (OH) newspaper in 1873.

"The other major oral tradition challenging Jefferson’s sexual morality came from Sally Hemings’ son Madison (the fourth Hemings child, born in 1805). In an article published in an Ohio newspaper in 1873, Madison Hemings claimed that in France “my mother became Mr. Jefferson’s concubine, and when he was called back home she was enceinte [pregnant] by him” with Thomas Woodson."

Here is what Madison Hemings actually had published in that newspaper:

"But during that time my mother became Mr. Jefferson’s concubine, and when he was called home she was enciente by him. He desired to bring my mother back to Virginia with him but she demurred. She was just beginning to understand the French language well, and in France she was free, while if she returned to Virginia she would be re-enslaved. So she refused to return with him. To induce her to do so he promised her extraordinary privileges, and made a solemn pledge that her children should be freed at the age of twenty-one years. In consequence of his promises, on which she implicitly relied, she returned with him to Virginia. Soon after their arrival, she gave birth to a child, of whom Thomas Jefferson was the father. It lived but a short time. She gave birth to four others, and Jefferson was the father of all of them. Their names were Beverly, Harriet, Madison (myself), and Eston—three sons and one daughter. We all became free agreeably to the treaty entered into by our parents before we were born. We all married and have raised families."

Hemings did not mention Woodson because he was irrelevant. Sally Hemings first child lived but "a short time." Barton didn't tell his readers that part of the story.

The Monticello website on Sally Hemings and Thomas Jefferson: https://www.monticello.org/thomas-jefferson/jefferson-slavery/thomas-jefferson-and-sally-hemings-a-brief-account/

Research Report: https://www.monticello.org/thomas-jefferson/jefferson-slavery/thomas-jefferson-and-sally-hemings-a-brief-account/research-report-on-jefferson-and-hemings/

SHOW NOTES:

For more information about Getting Jefferson Right, go to gettingjeffersonright.com.  

The closing song is Were You There by LoFi Hymnal. https://open.spotify.com/track/19oJxhr6efnpU7LVBzUQz2?si=c94873948db84fbd

Background music by Jonathan Swaim, Roman Candle, and Warren Throckmorton

The series will conclude during the final week of April with an episode on the virtues of the separation of church and state.  Watch for additional episodes between now and then.  If you like the pod, leave a positive review. 

Send us Fan Mail

This supplements episode 10, Still Searching for Christian America, Part Two. You can listen to this first, but I definitely encourage you to go back and catch up if you do.

Everybody in Christian nationalism is talking about the seven mountains message. The message is at the root of much violent rhetoric coming from Christian nationalists but according to one of the key players in the movement, the origin story is fake.

Helping me out in this bonus episode is Senior scholar at the Institute for Islamic, Christian and Jewish Studies Matthew Taylor; English prof at University of North Georgia Matthew Boedy, and attorney and theologian Joel McDurmon.

From the episode:

"Remember, all of this rhetoric has been directly inspired by a teaching that is based on a false story. Let’s keep it real, God did not show Loren Cunningham, Lance Wallnau, Mike Crotts, Johnny Enlow or anyone that the Christian’s mission in this world is to take the government by stealth or by force. 

He who has ears to hear, let him hear."

SHOW NOTES

Hosted, written and produced by Warren Throckmorton

Closing song is Endless Runner by the amazing Robo Surgeon Fish.
https://open.spotify.com/track/5IyxikZ3PJYyFWhdoLkbCf?si=c7409ab3f4be4c6c

Telling Jefferson Lies Playlist with many of the songs featured in the series:
https://open.spotify.com/playlist/2yMPnORBMXNa0JuJP2u5uo?si=3e6463d8fb554cac

Matthew Taylor's podcast Charismatic Revival Fury:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/charismatic-revival-fury-the-new-apostolic-reformation/id1738709631

Many of the clips for the series come from Right Wing Watch, especially those documenting the violent rhetoric of Christian nationalist leaders.  I encourage you to follow them on social media. 

Send us Fan Mail

Note: Earlier versions of this segment had a low quality version of a speech by Jerry Falwell. The audio problem has been corrected.

In this episode, I describe the National Prayer Breakfast movement, right-wing Christian nationalists, Reconstructionists, and non-denominational charismatic Christian nationalists. 

My guests for this episode are:

Julie Ingersoll, Professor of religion at the University of North Florida and author of Building God's Kingdom: Inside the World of Christian Reconstruction

Jonathan Larsen: Journalist, https://jonathanlarsen.substack.com/

Joel McDurmon: Attorney, theologian, and author of several books including The Problem of Slavery in Christian America.

Katherine Stewart: Journalist, author of Power Worshippers: Inside the Dangerous Rise of Religious Nationalism. The documentary God and Country, produced by Rob Reiner is based on this book.

Matthew Taylor: Senior scholar at the Institute for Islamic, Christian and Jewish Studies and author of the book due out on September 24, The Violent Take It by Force: The Christian Movement That Is Threatening Our Democracy.

Resources mentioned:

The Family by Jeff Sharlet - https://www.netflix.com/title/80063867 (full disclosure, I appear in three segments of this series)

Kevin Kruse, One Nation Under God: How Corporate America Invented Christian America.

SHOW NOTES

Closing Song - American Dream by Kate Thornbury
https://open.spotify.com/track/5Fq2zf9Z8jCFLN1EOeYun6?si=4d1ee70f65304625

Theme Song - The World Awaits Us All
https://open.spotify.com/track/1itsWJuQnnx5bPbNJpkx51?si=621fb898b60f4ccb

Background music: Dustin Blatnik, Warren Throckmorton, Jon Comden, the Columbia Band

Send us Fan Mail

In 1983, Mark Noll, Nathan Hatch, and George Marsden published a book titled The Search for Christian America. They concluded that there was nothing uniquely Christian in the founding of the United States and there is no Christian America to which to return.

In this episode, both Drs. Noll and Marsden join me to say they believe today they were right in 1983 and the same conclusions are correct today. In between comments from these illustrious historians, I interview experts regarding the various conceptions of Christian nationalism, including "secular" leaning nationalism, white nationalism, and Catholic varieties, including integralism. I also provide a brief look at the research approach to describing Christian nationalism. 

This is part one of two parts. Next week, I examine Reconstructionism, Seven Mountains dominionism, the old guard moral majority Christian nationalism, and the National Prayer Breakfast movement.   

Guests in today's episode: Joel Bowman, Scott Coley, Michael Coulter, Greg Forster, Goerge Marsden, Paul Matzko, Mark Noll, Matthew Taylor, Jemar Tisby.

SHOW NOTES;

Produced, written, and hosted by Warren Throckmorton
Closing Song - Every Time by Roman Candle
https://open.spotify.com/track/5N9QXoxHPTkQWy39PtQPNX?si=a095c40062e64e8e

Theme Song - The World Awaits Us All

Additional Christian Nationalism Resources:

Building God's Kingdom by Julie Ingersoll

The Flag and the Cross by Philip Gorski

Taking America Back for God by Samuel Perry and Andrew Whitehead

White Too Long by Robert Jones

The Color of Compromise by Jemar Tisby

The Power Worshippers by Katherine Stewart

The Religion of American Greatness by Paul Miller

American Idolatry by Andrew Whitehead

Jesus and John Wayne by Kristin Kobes Du Mez

Getting Jefferson Right: Fact-Checking Claims About Thomas Jefferson  by Warren Throckmorton & Michael Coulter.

Ministers of Propaganda by Scott Coley

Send us Fan Mail

Stephen Wolfe's book The Case for Christian Nationalism ignited a firestorm of controversy when it was released in 2022.  In the book, Wolfe calls for revolt against tyranny and for Christians to mobilize at the state and local level to enact self-conscious Christian governments. In principle, according to Wolfe, Christian state's could use violence to maintain a Christian social order.

With the help of Cato Institute historian Paul Matzko, podcast host Warren Throckmorton analyzes how Wolfe deals with Thomas Jefferson and highlights differences from other Christian nationalists such as David Barton. Also joining the program is Grove City College Dean of Arts and Letters and church historian Paul Kemeny.

The Apostle Paul is also quoted so if you like Pauls, this episode is for you.

SHOW NOTES:

Paul Matzko's review of The Case for Christian Nationalism at Reason Magazine.
https://reason.com/2023/05/13/beware-the-christian-prince/

Thanks to Charles Norman and the Larry Norman Estate for permission to play Larry Norman's song, "Six, Sixty, Six" as today's closing song. 

Telling Jefferson Lies' theme song is "The World Awaits Us All" by Roman Candle. Thanks to Skip Matheny and Roman Candle for permission to play their music.

Jonathan Swaim and I provide background music for today's episode.