The Christian Past That Wasn't: Formerly Telling Jefferson Lies

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In my book The Christian Past That Wasn't (Broadleaf Books), I spend two chapters on the factors that make Christian nationalism attractive. In this segment, I interview Dean of Oklahoma Christian University's College of Bible, Jeremie Beller on the subject of terror management. This theory provides a powerful, research-based account of what makes nationalism attractive to people. Jeremie's theological expertise provides a novel perspective on the application of terror management to Christian nationalism. 

I go into this topic in depth in chapter one of the new book. Chapter two discusses the role of deception by Christian organizations and how ingroup bias keeps people loyal to the overall group goals despite the deception. 

To order the book go to www.christianpast.com.

Written, produced, and hosted by Warren Throckmorton

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Why did I write The Christian Past That Wasn't? Answering that question requires me to revisit season one of the podcast and reflect on the rise of Christian nationalism in the African nation of Uganda in 2009. More recently, my work in fact-checking started with a pundit named Bryan Fischer who once broadcast on the American Family Association radio network. As I contended with Fischer, I found out that most of his material came from David Barton. Ultimately, my views changed from an inconsistent combination of Baptist distinctives and American civil religion to where I am today -- a strong supporter of separation of church and state. I wrote the new book to shed light on the heritage of religious tolerance and pluralism in the United States. 

You can now order the book at Amazon or Barnes and Noble. Other options can be found at http://www.christianpast.com.

Music by Roman Candle and Earl's Taco Shack

Written, produced, and hosted by Warren Throckmorton

Journalist Jonathan Larson makes an appearance via the replay of season 1, episode 11.

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Today I interview Todd Allen, Founder of the Common Ground Project and administrator at Messiah University (PA). Todd and I talk about his work in civil rights education and history. We also discuss my forthcoming book, The Christian Past That Wasn't. Todd is an enthusiastic endorser of the book and makes a good case for why it is needed as the administration is manipulating history of the founding era. 

Written, produced, and hosted by Warren Throckmorton

For more information about The Christian Past That Wasn't, go to www.christianpast.com. 

To contact Todd about the Common Ground Project, go to the christianpast.com and use the contact function to send me an email. I will make sure he gets it. 

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On April 28, the first episode of the podcast series The Christian Past That Wasn't is scheduled for posting. This is a continuation of the podcast formerly known as Telling Jefferson Lies. TJL gets a new name in recognition of the publication of my new bookThe Christian Past That Wasn't: Debunking the Christian Nationalist Myths That Hijack History. On May 19, Broadleaf Books will release this book and I plan to post a segment of the series that day as well. 

This brief segment is a trailer for the 2026 series. I am glad to have Todd Allen, Jeremie Beller, and Jemar Tisby with me on the trailer today. 

Keep up with new developments at www.christianpast.com and warrenthrockmorton.substack.com. 

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Roger Finke is distinguished professor emeritus of sociology and international affairs at Penn State University. Roger is also the founder of the Association of Religion Data Archives, which is an online archive of the best religion data available, a standard research tool for social scientists. He is the author of several books including the subject of today's interview: The Price of Freedom Denied: Religious Persecution and Conflict in the 21st Century (2011) co-authored with Brian Grim. 

In this book, Grim and Finke found that as religious freedoms are denied in a society, both by government and by social groups within a society, religious persecution increases. Given the quasi-establishments of evangelical Christianity developing throughout the land, it is important to be aware of the potential consequences of these church-state alliances.  

The Association of Religion Data Archives (ARDA) - www.thearda.com. The co-directors are Andrew Whitehead and Christopher Bader. Regular listeners will recall my interview with Andrew in episode 5. 

Music provided by Earl's Taco Shack and Jonus Fair. 

Artwork provided by Sarah Eshelman

Produced and hosted by Warren Throckmorton

The series will be on hold throughout the remainder of August while I complete The Christian Past That Wasn't, due out next year. You can pre-order it anywhere books are sold. The Amazon link is https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0FCCCP71V

The next episode will post sometime in September. Thanks for listening! 

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Today's segment is the second part of my interview with Paul Matzko, historian and senior program manager at the Institute for Humane Studies at George Mason University. Paul is also an adjunct scholar at the Cato Institute. Our topic today is Paul's answer to the question: has Christian nationalism ever worked? 

Listen in to find out. 

As a part of addressing the question, Paul tells the story of Quaker martyr Mary Dyer. 

Music provided by Earl's Taco Shack, Jonathan Swaim, and Jonus Fair. 

Artwork by Sarah Eshelman.

Hosted and produced by Warren Throckmorton

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Paul Matzko is a historian and senior program manager for AI and emerging technology at the Institute for Humane Studies at George Mason University. He is also an adjunct scholar at the Cato Institute and host of the Unintended Consequences podcast. 

Today, he joins me to discuss how Christian nationalism differs from citizen engagement with politics. Often Christian nationalists complain that they are simply living out their faith in the public square. However, Paul teases out the differences between policies which benefit the common good and those which are designed to benefit mainly or only Christians affiliated with the regime in power. 

This is part one of a two-part interview. Next week, I will have the conclusion where Paul talks about the bitter consequences of Christian nationalism and addresses the question: Has Christian nationalism ever worked?

Topics today:

• What is Christian nationalism?
• Christian nationalism and the ideology of South African apartheid
• Christian nationalism and Geralf L. K. Smith
• Billy Sunday and the Klan
• MAGA as the modern America First movement
• Christian nationalism is a different faith than orthodox Christianity
• Christian nationalism and public schools
• and much more...

Music today is provided by Earl's Taco Shack, Jonus Fair, and Dustin Blatnik.

Hosted and produced by Warren Throckmorton

Artwork by Sarah Eshelman

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This segment includes a significant amount of a recent interview with historican and author Jemar Tisby. Although I interviewed Jemar in the spring, the content is incredibly timely and relevant now. In this discussion, we cover the Trump administration's war on due process, diversity programs, and foreign aid. 

A recurring theme is the grift, greed, and cruelty of the Trump administration's Christian nationalism. Jemar challenges listeners to speak the truth and act to preserve our freedoms.   

From the segment: "To put it in Christian terms, White Christian nationalism is wrong on a lot of levels, but if you want to talk about a very basic level, it's a violation of the third commandment: thou shalt not take the Lord's name in vain. Which of course doesn't refer to to cussing or using bad words. It's fundamentally about not doing things in God's name that God would never condone."

In response to the interview and recent events, I ask: Why is an administration which claims the US is a Christian nation known for its cruelty rather than compassion?"

SHOW NOTES:

Jemar Tisby's Substack: http://jemartisby.substack.com

Non-violence training with the King Center, July 19, Noon-3pm (et): https://jemartisby.substack.com/p/train-in-nonviolence-with-the-king

The Spirit of Justice: https://jemartisby.com/the-spirit-of-justice/

Music provided by Earl's Taco Shack, Dustin Blatnik, and Jonus Fair. 

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Today I feature an interview with Katherine Stewart, the author of the New York Time bestseller Money, Lies, and God: Inside the Movement to Destroy American Democracy.  The segment is timely in that we discuss income disparities accentuated by the passage of the recent Trump budget. The dominance of Christian nationalism in the current administration isn't helping many of the foot soldiers who helped bring Trump to power. 

Katherine discusses her new book and much more. Here is a sampling of topics:

• The uneasy coalitions in Christian nationalism and MAGA world
• The lifeblood of Christian nationalism: bad history
• Religious liberty means the freedom to do what Christian nationalists want to do
• Religion is a tool of autocratic leaders
• The threat of the New Right to American governance
• Power is what unites the religion of the New Right
• David Barton (Where's Waldo) is still active
• The rank and file are ultimately victims of the theology of power

CREDITS:

Music is provided by Earl's Taco Shack and Jonus Fair. Artwork is by Sarah Eshelman. 

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Why are Christian nationalists angry about the New York City Democratic mayoral primary victory of Zohran Mamdani? They surely are. Many are blaming "unchecked" immigration for his win. White Christians nationalist fear they are being replaced by too many non-Christians and too many black and brown people. In light of this event and the overall attacks on immigrants taking place in Trump's America, have I got a segment for you. We also hear from a founding father on why Muslims should not be discriminated against. 

In contrast to prior episodes, this one features one guest: Sociologist Andrew Whitehead. Andrew is associate professor of sociology at Indiana University-Purdue University Indianapolis, where he codirects the Association of Religion Data Archives at the Center for the Study of Religion and American Culture. He is also the author of American Idolatry: How Christian Nationalism Betrays the Gospel and Threatens the Church (2023) and co-author with Samuel Perry of Taking America Back for God: Christian Nationalism in the United States (2020). 

The focus of the episode is what Christian nationalists fear, which is almost everything. Andrew does a wonderful job of breaking down what Christian nationalists fear and how fear is related to Christian nationalism. We also discussed why the Christian aspect of Christian nationalism isn't enough for Christian nationalists. It is good and proper to discuss the deficits in Christian nationalist history, but it is also important to understand the psychology behind the Christians who seek comfort in nationalism. 

This isn't all about psychology; there is some history too. We hear from James Iredell, an early Supreme Court justice who has a good word for us today. 

Music provided by Earl's Taco Shack, Jonathan Swaim, and Dustin Blatnik. 

Hosted and produced by Warren Throckmorton