The 8020 Drummer Podcast

It’s fitting that two weeks after hearing from Chris Turner, a man with one of the most whimsical, intuitive approaches to drums I’ve ever encountered, we encounter one Stan Bicknell, who’s built a brand around a mindful, deliberate, disciplined approach to the drums, and to architecting a life around it.

Stan wowed audiences with his appearance on Drumeo 5 years ago. Around this time, his touring career was taking off. But after the birth of his child, Stan made the decision to put his life front-and-center, move back to his native New Zealand, and design a role for drums, drum practice, drum teaching, and drum performance, that served his life goals.

Stan’s story resonated with me, because I made a similar decision around a decade ago, when I decided to start the 8020 channel. (I should say, I wasn’t turning down touring opportunities.) Speaking to Stan was a great “meeting of the minds”, because we’ve read many of the same books, and thought along the same lines.

It’s just that he’s doing practically all of it better than I am.

Which inspires an adage - “find the person who’s doing what you want to do better than you are, and draw inspiration from them.”

Stan is like the Qui-Gon Jinn of the drums, with his disciplined practice routines, mindfulness, goal-setting, and integration between drums and life. And it shows in his playing. Stan is almost 100% self-taught, which is to say he emulated his drum heroes like Weckl and Vinnie largely without teachers as intermediaries, and while he wouldn’t recommend that for everybody, all that extra work left him with some revised first-principles.

He also coaches drummers in not-only the instrument, but in life-satisfaction, and, as the episode title says, building a life around the drums.

I hope you’ll find this discussion as fascinating as I did.

Chapters

0:00 - setting a goal without assuming you're entitled to the results 6:44 - finding humility by removing gatekeepers 12:05 - the paradox of putting in the time without feeling locked in 17:15 - small world - Richie Martinez shout-outs 20:54 - why routines are necessary for improvement 24:44 - does it ever get any easier? 29:58 - inside Stan's system for improvisation 38:10 - spending a lot of time practicing something abstract 43:49 - identity diversity and being a "whole drummer"

Chris Turner is kind of the undisputed modern “double kick king”. Which, if that was all he was, might be of less interest to my audience. Luckily he’s also one of the most musical and creative drummers, and one of the most interesting and inspiring humans I’ve met recently.

One of the underrated benefits of getting to speak to great drummers is seeing the variety of different ways they’ve achieved, well, greatness. And you learn there are really very different archetypes, from the “acerbic everyman”, to the “systems and discipline person”, to the “rocket-fueled motivation machine”. (The last might describe Isac Jamba and Richie Martinez, among others.)

Chris Turner has the seemingly-bottomless-pit-of-motivation that some of the other guests have, but it’s combined with an easy-going, “come-what-may” kind of whimsy. He literally says he structures his life to avoid doing anything he doesn’t want to do in a given day. If you’re wondering about the obvious paradox between that approach and the discipline and longevity required to reach his level on drums, I was wondering the same thing, and his answer mildly floored me.

Chris says for his entire life, he’s strung together a series of independent days of falling deeply in love with the drums. When I asked him if he’s seen 50 First Dates, the Adam Sandler/Drew Barrymore rom com, he agreed “it’s like that.”

I was rather pleased that in this hour-long conversation with the world’s foremost double-kick player, we only broached double kick twice: once as an aside as Chris described his relationship with teaching, and a second time when I say I’m “not going to ask him about that.”

Instead we talk about motivation, psychology, finding a relationship with what you love, and his newest object-of-focus, YouTube.

Chris has an energy I think you’ll find infectious, and I know you’ll enjoy this convo regardless of the genre you’re interested in.

Chapters

0:16 - Chris' unique approach to motivation 6:42 - the "50 First Dates" approach to drums/Chris following his talent 10:42 - finding motivation from adversity 15:30 - Alex Honnold 20:09 - ok, but how does he motivate students? 25:14 - the definition of a "career"? 28:31 - what's the creative direction that's firing up Chris the most 33:33 - how did he come out of the gate with such high quality on YouTube 36:55 - Chris' favorite YouTube inspirations

Throughout the years, I’ve had a running mental catalogue on the go-to videos for certain subjects. Jazz swing, building a solo on the drums, tuning, timing, etc. And when I look back, in a surprising number of categories, the “best resource” comes from Rob “Beatdown” Brown.

Rob was among the “OGs” on Drumeo, with a great video about Stewart Copeland, and consistently drops authentic takes on his channel. That’s why I’ve been meaning to have a conversation with Rob for some time.

I finally caught up with him in early August, and opened the conversation with a question that’s been on my mind a bunch: What does he make of this situation where everybody practices chops, but nobody’s “allowed” to use them? And has that created a situation in which they’re not taught very well. Rob didn’t hold back on that subject, and was equally candid in speaking about the importance of real-world playing experience for the “internet generation”.

We veered a bit into the nature/nurture debate as well, speaking about whether “feel” can be taught - my hobby horse is the crowd that seems to think that, even for people with the capacity for good feel, there’s no recourse except to “feel it”. Rob was a bit more open minded to the idea that some people have a better innate capacity.

Finally, we spoke about YouTube as a mature medium, and the future of careers in drumming.

If you want some unfiltered wisdom from one of the OGs, I know you’ll enjoy this interview!

Chapters

0:00 - how does Rob feel about groove vs chops 10:61 - who are "hot" drummers who play clean but not "showoffy" 16:41 - did it take Rob a lot of effort to learn to "flow"? 23:31 - how important is real-world experience for drummers? 27:00 - does Rob have take-aways from his gig experience? 31:29 - what has Rob learned about his audience that's surprised him? 36:15 - is "just feel it" inadequate advice? 41:07 - is feel teachable, or are some people just born with it? 49:10 - what career advice would Rob give to a young graduate?

Ofri Nehemaya is barely in his ‘30s, but has already played and toured with Shai Maestro, Aaron Goldberg, Avishai (Bass) Cohen (the same drum chair where Mark Guiliana got his first big break), and Gilad Hekselman. He’s also no stranger to bandleading, releasing a viral, self-produced, straight-to-YouTube single called Just Sayin at age…I think it was 19;)

Ofri has been on my radar since then, and I was excited to ask him about how he practices, how he channels flow, how he approaches moving to a new scene and “fitting in”, and more.

You’ll see in the opening minutes I’m trying to pull some practice details out of him, and he just wants to talk about flow state and making music, so we go in that direction.

(I still suspect he has some juicy shed secrets. Perhaps we’ll explore those in a Part Two.)

Chapters

0:00 - what has Ofri been practicing lately? 4:10 - applying practice to music 10:15 - how he practiced playing in flow 15:33 - why we get nervous to perform 19:15 - lessons Ofri has learned from musical greats 27:05 - Ofri's advice on plugging into a scene 33:15 - approaching people with authenticity 36:51 - the story behind Ofri's most famous song

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Two years ago, I did a virtual drum shed with former podcast guest Raghav Mehrotra, the always-entertaining David Cola, and this week’s guest, Josh Crawford.

Josh, who rose to fame doing reaction videos to jaw-dropping drummers, is himself an elite player, and in this conversation I wanted to hear his opinions on both sides: becoming the player he is, and also influencer lyfe.

Josh is one of the most efficient players I’ve seen - he plays the most intricate stuff while expending a level of energy that looks more like he’s reading a newspaper. We get into some detail as I try to pick his brain about sticking and his approach to playing around the drums in general.

We also discuss the ever-present cold war of chops vs pocket, a subject on which Josh has dropped many-a-humorous-instagram voiceover - whether it’s Nick Canon footage from Drumline or Russell Croww and Denzel Washington - of famous movie characters “arguing” about pocket vs chops. When I pressed him on the subject, Josh had an unexpected take.

And of course we discuss the genesis of his internet fame, whether it was planned or serendipitous, and what he reckons he’d be doing if he hadn’t blown up on YouTube.

Joshua is both funny and insightful, which is why I have no double you’ll enjoy this little chat.

Chapters

0:00 - how does josh think of pocket vs chops? 5:00 - the best way to work on subdivision/placement 6:38 - how is josh so efficient? 10:54 - the Matrix/early influences 15:10 - what are the things josh has *passed* on learning for now 18:55 - estepario 21:33 - shed stories and the utility of sheds 27:58 - red light training 29:50 - how josh got started on youtube 33:55 - josh's non-drum youtube influences

When Gordy Knudtson was gigging in the late 70s, he was using almost exclusively traditional grip, and suffered an injury he says caused doctors to doubt he’d be able to continue playing.

Desperate to “work around” his tension, Gordy switched to matched and did one of the great deep-dives on hand technique. You could say he “John Dahaner’ed” drumstick mechanics, but it’s more accurate to say John “Gordy’d” jiujitsu.

One of the points I bring up with Gordy is that just as before and after Danaher, plenty of practitioners embodied solid mechanics, if you watch the hands of any of myriad great drummers, from Joe Morello to Philly Joe, to Tony Williams, to maybe Tony’s most famous fan, Vinnie Colaiuta, to modern technicians like Dana Hawkins, it’s clear there’s no shortage of drummers putting mechanical principles into practice.

But it’s probably also true that Gordy has extended the understanding of what’s actually happening when these greats play more than anyone at least since Murray Spivack, and, just like Danaher, made it more efficient for beginners to learn.

As you’ll see, Gordy also gives me something of a “free lesson”, showing how I could extend on my technique. Video of my thoughts and experiments on this in the pipeline for sure. There’s been much chat around this on calls with my coaching students.

Chapters

0:10 - unintended back story 1:49 - my background with Gordy 3:10 - does Gordy think the big dynamic variation in his gigs contributed to his technique 5:57 - is there a value to playing gigs that stretch your dynamic range? 11:21 - weird gigs in our pasts 13:42 - Gordy continues outlining the origins of his approach 22:11 - why every double stroke is by definition open-close 33:56 - the paradox of many great practitioners but few codifiers 45:05 - Gordy's assessment of *my* interpretation of his technique

I had a suspicion Benny Greb would be an interesting and thought-provoking conversation partner, and I wasn’t wrong.

I was interested to compare notes with the master-clinician on a number of things that have been top-of-mind, like nature/nurture, the paradox of the subjectivity of - but requirement for skill in - art, gap-click, and overrated drum advice.

Benny surprised me at turns, and confirmed my suspicions at others.

One of his most-interesting insights, in my opinion, was that he wants to be an entertainer/craftsperson, not just an “artist”.

We also managed to touch on Pablo Picaso, Neitzsche, Vinnie’s Attack of The 20lb Pizza (it’s 20 pounds, I know - I misspoke and under-weighted the pizza during the interview), and why Benny maybe disagrees with me on independence as a concept.

Chapters

0:00 - how can you tell if you're meant to play the drums 2:33 - did the drums feel natural to Benny when he first started? 5:35 - on being an entertainer 9:53 - if art is subjective what are we getting better at when we practice? 13:57 - was there a "goodness threshold" for Benny? 16:10 - biggest progress blockers Benny sees in drummers? 20:10 - are there any sacred cows in drum education that Benny disagrees with? 23:17 - "applying rudiments to the kit" 25:17 - Benny's recipe for learning improv 31:13 - JP's story, and why Benny loves teaching 35:45 - is there a place for competition in music? 41:02 - Vinnie, and filling other drummers' shoes

TaRon Lockett, who was Prince’ last drummer, who cut his teeth with Erykah Badu, and who was a key member of a scene that spawned Robert “Sput” Searight, Cleon Edwards and Mike Mitchell among others…

…showed up to our interview in character as his own life coach.

And from that point I knew this wasn’t going to be an “average” podcast episode.

It’s perfectly in-keeping with TaRon’s entire approach to music and creativity, though. There’s the dedication to “the bit”, evidenced by TaRon’s philosophy to dedicate himself 100% to assuming the character necessary to perform at his best for any gig he’s agreed to.

There’s the fearlessness that helped TaRon “not look back” when he left a college degree program to pursue music full-time after getting some high-profile gigs.

There’s the respect for age-old wisdom and the hard-won lessons of playing in church and learning by “respectful hard knocks”, and the dead seriousness of one’s dedication to their art.

Then there’s the duality itself, between irreverence, rebelliousness, and independence on one hand, and respect for the tradition and the aforementioned willingness to conform to perform his best on the gig.

In any case, if you’re patient, there are lessons, both humorous and serious to be gleaned both from TaRon-as-his-life-coach, and Taron-as-himself.

I hope you enjoy this fascinating the surprising conversation with one of the most underrated drummers around.

(And if you want to check out TaRon more, I recommend his instagram, starting with this clip.)

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Chapters

0:45 - how did TaRon develop his unique voice  2:30 - early teachers and musical influences  4:51 - how much was talent and how much was hard work 7:09 - memorable hard knocks lessons  9:59 - how much time should drummers allot to technique vs music  16:07 - being a musical chameleon  17:33 - the limits of hard knocks  24:09 - advice for someone who wonders if they have what it takes  28:15 - what drew TaRon to LA 33:54 - how has his practice changed over the years 36:18 - the origins of the "floor tom thingy" 40:41 - his relationship with the practice pad 42:50 - biggest takeaway from playing with Erykah Badu 45:08 - biggest takeaway from playing with Prince

Today we have an interview I’m very excited about.

One of the forefathers of jazz drum instruction - though as you’ll hear he doesn’t like the taxonomy, preferring to say he’s an “improvisation teacher”.

The biggest surprise for me upon speaking to Ed is that he’s an iconoclast. His energy is pure punk-rock, and he has no time for the idea of “handedness” on the drums, nor the “walling off” of jazz from other forms of improvisation.

Ed and I chat about hierarchies in music, how Denton, TX became a music powerhouse away from either of the coasts, teaching psychology, the value of honesty in music, and more.

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Chapters

0:00 - how did the University of North Texas become such a music powerhouse 5:30 - how Ed balances "going deep into the roots" with giving a fast overview 9:00 - why does Ed like Warren "Baby" Dodds so much 15:00 - the origin of Ed's brush approach 19:31 - why Ed doesn't believe in "handedness" 20:59 - how to help a student find their voice 28:17 - how to tell if you don't have it yet or you'll never have it 34:00 - why Ed finds it important to incept students with a work ethic 41:10 - gentle ways to teach touch lessons 51:40 - why Ed doesn't like the label "jazz teacher"

Today’s podcast guest first caught my attention with his clean, slamming Instagram clips. Picture closing your eyes and hearing a mix of Clyde Stubblefield, Bonham, and Nate Smith, then opening them and seeing a skinny teenager with a big mop of black hair and an infectious smile, and thinking “this guy is playing this”?

To the degree we use the word “prodigy”, Raghav Mehrotra is that. Someone who exhibits a degree of artistic maturity we usually don’t expect until many years later, even though he’s barely in college. (Studying economics at Harvard, btw.)

Raghav played drums and contributed vocals in the Broadway musical School of Rock at age 15.

He’s sat in with Seth Meyers’ Late Night band several times.

And now he’s behind the drum chair for Jordan Rakei’s latest album, The Loop.

Naturally, I was curious about how he developed such maturity at such a young age. In this conversation we touch early teachers, practice routines, figuring out Instagram, what it’s like to sit in with the Late Night Band, advice he’d give to up-and-coming drummers, and more.

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Chapters

0:00 - what were Raghav's biggest influences 3:50 - why does he think he got so mature at so early an age 9:00 - who was his earliest teacher? 13:25 - how did he get on Instagram? 15:04 - should drummers be less afraid to put themselves out there? 18:33 - how did he internalize the key details so early 23:18 - how to decide when to "move on" 26:50 - Raghav's zoom-lecture practice strategy/how has his practice routine changed 31:00 - what advice would he give his younger self 34:54 - biggest advice he'd give to the median instagram drummer 37:04 - biggest surprise sitting in with the Late Night band