The Acas Podcast

In his last week as Acas Chair, Sir Brendan Barber shares his insights from behind the scenes. We find out how he successfully helped resolve the junior doctors dispute, plus his tips on handling conflict, why listening matters and the key issues for working life after the coronavirus pandemic.

Plus: what it is really like to be a knight.

Episode resources:

Acas Policy Paper: Brendan Barber on Building Back: making working lives better after the Coronavirus pandemic.

Acas Policy Paper: Managing workplace conflict: the changing role of HR

Collective conciliation (resolving disputes between groups of employees and employers): https://www.acas.org.uk/collective-conciliation

Early conciliation (resolving disputes between individuals and employers): https://www.acas.org.uk/early-conciliation

Transcript

Sarah Guthrie 0:00 

Welcome to the Acas Podcast. I'm Sarah Guthrie , part of the communications team here at Acas and today I'm joined by Brendan Barber, who's been Chair of Acas for the last six years and steps down at the end of July. I'm also joined by Shumon Ali-Rahman, who heads up our media team, joining me today to grill Brandon on his time at Acas and everything he's learned. So Brendan, you've been Chair of Acas for six years and before that, you'll be most known for your role as General Secretary of the TUC. I was wondering, what's been your proudest achievement during your years as Acas Chair?

Brendan Barber 0:33 

I guessed you were going to ask me that. In terms of personal things, dispute resolution is something that you get a buzz if you have been able to help play a positive role in helping to resolve particular big disputes where the dynamics of the way you've handled something might have made a real difference and you can kind of sense that. So some of the particular disputes that I've kind of played a part in - the junior doctors, British Airways one relatively recently with the pilots, the universities dispute a while back - some of those I got personally involved in, if they do move forward in a positive way, then those are things that give particular satisfaction.

Shumon Ali-Rahman 1:24 

So, the junior doctors dispute, probably one of the most high profile disputes since I've been here at Acas anyway, it was top news story. I still, still record coverage at 1280 pieces of media covering back in 2016 in my head. You led the conciliation team for this dispute. It was considered unsolvable and yet you managed to get a deal. How did you do it?

Brendan 1:49 

I knew some of the leading figures in the BMA, the doctors union that was in dispute. As the dispute unfolded, I kind of made an approach initially to the BMA to try and get a feel for what the key issues were from their perspective. I did know some people on the government side, also talked to them about it and felt my way towards, you know, reaching a point where potentially both sides might be willing to talk and could see value in perhaps Acas holding the ring. There'd been a lot of distrust on both sides in some of the earlier exchanges in the earlier stages of the dispute. And sometimes that's what the third party can do - create a different kind of arena to try and work through what the issues are and what the differences are. Sometimes in disputes, the sides aren't very good at listening to each other. They're not very good at listening to actually understand what the real positions are with the people on the other side of the table. And again, sometimes a third party can help explain things in ways that the side then actually listens and understands better, perhaps what the other side's perspective isn't on.

Shumon 3:05 

Conciliation is obviously one of Acas' top services that we provide. But what would you say, what kind of personality attributes do you think it's almost like essential in that kind of role? And what would your tips be?

Brendan 3:19 

Well, you've got to try and leave your ego outside the room. Sometimes you're dealing with very strong personalities, with strongly held views about the issues. And sometimes you're dealing with delicate egos that feel their own status is at stake. You have to be able to engage in a way that helps build trust in you, but certainly leave your ego outside the room. So if one side asserts very strongly A, B or C, there are times when you have to say, well, that's rubbish. But certainly you need to earn the right to say that by being able to absorb people's feelings as well as, as well as what they're actually saying about the issue.

Shumon 4:00 

I was curious if we're talking about junior doctors, yeah, was there any kind of time within when you were dealing with because it went on for quite a while when you think, Oh my god, this is never going to be solved.

Brendan 4:12 

I never thought that. There were certainly times and other disputes where you find it very difficult. And you read some real impasse points. And what I've learned is you do have to be prepared to stick out it and take the knockbacks and keep working on things and keeping the relationships on both sides in a state of good repair so that even if immediately you're not able to resume the process, as and when there may be a thought about a different idea or a different approach, you've still got the credibility and goodwill on both sides to be able to bring them back together, perhaps at a later point.

Sarah 4:51 

So leaving your ego at the door, listening, absorbing the emotions. These aren't simple skills. And I'm wondering, were you always a natural at this or is it something that grew?

Brendan 5:01 

It's something that's definitely grown. I did a lot of dispute resolution work at the TUC. And as you kind of gather experience, you get a little bit more confidence obviously. And you realise that at the end of the world if an idea doesn't fly, that's fine. Again, that's where you leave your ego outside, you don't worry about being knocked back. If something's not gonna work, but other kinds of things I learned to both the TUC and Acas experience is writing skills very, very important in conciliation and dispute resolution. Because even if you think you've got an understanding of an issue, of a solution to a problem, unless you can write it down, so that it's clear, it's on the record, and you can confirm with both sides, this is what we're agreeing, then it's so easy for things to just dissipate once people leave the room and "That was, that wasn't exactly what I meant. That wasn't exactly what I said." So the ability to craft the words, find the language is an important kind of skill. And I learned through my time at the TUC, particularly actually, during my time as the kind of TUC press officer, I was given the opportunity to sit in on a lot of big dispute meetings and develop the craft of writing the press release. So what are we saying about this meeting at the end of it, if there's a, you know, at that time, a lot of disputes with a lot of journalistic media interest, and so on. People outside wanting the statement, what's happened, and so on. Through trial and error, I kind of developed some skills of actually trying to craft the conclusions, find the language - that's a very important skill in conciliation, not just about the dynamics in the meeting, you've got to be able to nail it down and find the language to nail it down.

Sarah 6:57 

And are those skills that you just mentioned relevant to everyday working life? Not many of us find ourselves in headline hitting disputes on a daily basis.

Brendan 7:06 

Yes, absolutely. I mean, conflict is a part of working life, isn't it? Whether it's about individuals falling out, working relationships, you know, deteriorating, and all these kind of issues about listening skills to really understand what somebody's saying is the cause of their grievance or concern through to trying to deal with issues empathetically, trying to build trust that you're not going to go out and rat on them. Building the trust is about demonstrating you can observe confidentiality, manage the communication in a thoughtful, intelligent, respectful way that's not going to drop somebody in it. You have to recognise as well the lead negotiators on whichever side are sometimes playing an extraordinarily difficult role trying to keep their side together. I've seen in many disputes to where there are big fractures on the management side or the trade union side, with hawks and doves on either side. On the union side, sometimes of sense of people who may not really want to get the solution they want, they want to pursue the battle further and others perhaps keen to get the solution. On the management side, doves who want to get a settlement and reach a compromise, rebuild relationship, and hawks who are saying, "Well, we want to beat the union up, you know, we need to teach them lesson." So you have to understand the dynamics and the difficult challenges facing lead negotiators either side of the dispute.

Sarah 8:50 

Hmm. So these complex skills of listening, empathy, building trust are all really important for all of us because conflict shows up in work and you can actually see also playing out within each party's workplace and grouping in a dispute. So panning out a bit, coronavirus is having a dramatic impact on the country and we're likely to head into a recession. Lots of people are talking about how it's likely to change the way that we work. What do you think are going to be the key issues going forward that we should pay attention to?

Brendan 9:21 

For me, there are lots of issues that arise but just to mention two or three, there's been a lot of commentary about in the crisis, who we see as important that perhaps ought to be valued in different ways. Now a lot of commentary about that amongst the lowest paid workers in the British economy are the people who are working the care sector. Is that the right value for all of those people working in that sector. So issues around equality and inequality have come to the fore that have been highlighted by the Black Lives Matter movement, have been highlighted by the metoo to movement. So there's been a lot of lip service paid over a long period to the issues around equality and inequality. But as we're thinking about a new economy, in the wake of the crisis, if we get a vaccine and so on, we don't want to just go back to the old normal, we want to create something new and something different, something more positive. I think about the issue of well being and mental health, again, perhaps a lot more attention just in the last year or two has been paid to that. We're going to see real increases in mental health problems, the number of young people who are potentially going to really struggle to get a decent start in the labour market, we know from history, they can be particularly vulnerable in the context of the deep recession. So they're issues in that space too that I think are going to need a lot of really serious thought and attention. And the other kind of issue I'd headline is, if there are going to be big changes, if a lot of firms are going to be thinking, we need to restructure, we need to change our business model, we need to rejig the whole way people work, how are they going to manage that change? Are they going to really work hard to engage with the workforce, to bring their people with them on that journey of change? Are they going to be genuinely open and transparent? Are they going to actually really listen to the priorities and concerns of that workforce? Or are they just gonna kind of pay lip service to that and bang through profound changes that might have a huge impact on the lives and living standards of their workforce without any genuine consultations? So equality, inequality, health, mental health in particular and wellbeing? Is there going to be a real process of engagement? These are going to be big, big challenges.

Shumon 12:03 

We've seen a lot of interest in the media about the challenges for businesses in this new climate. What do you think the challenges are for trade unions? What's going to happen in the future? I mean, there's talk of recession, there's talk about massive redundancies, etc. How do you think unions can effectively navigate in the new future?

Brendan 12:20 

Well, there's gonna be a tough period for many unions. They may see membership hit if unemployment rises to the kind of levels that commentators are speculating about. But the broader challenge, I guess, strategically for unions, is in this context, whether they can really secure the opportunities to be able to exert the influence that they arguably should have. And that's both at the level of individual company and organisations and employers and in terms of our national discourse. Can they be brought into the process in a constructive way, so that the views are genuinely taken into account? I mean, my impression was that in designing some of the emergency responses to the crisis, the TUC along with the CBI and others were listened to. That was very important. Well, we're going to need more specific interventions in the labour market over the next period, I suspect. How those measures are actually designed, both the TuC and the CBI really ought to be a big part of the discussion because they're the people who have to make it work in practice. We go way back to the 80s and so on. There were periods where the quality of some of the training interventions was just seen to be inadequate. And they, they lost credibility as opportunities for young people. Making sure that you design things in ways that have proper quality guarantees, and you safeguard against the possible negative consequences of interventions, those are things where the CPI, the TuC will have really important insights that I would hope that the Governmemt will want to bring, bring into the conversation.

Sarah 14:26 

And these are really big issues that we're talking about. If I were to give you a magic wand to get all workplaces to do one thing, what do you think would make the biggest difference?

Brendan 14:36 

I think it will be about listening and engaging. I mean, there are some places that do this very well and they get the benefits. Lots and lots don't fall into that category. Given that we're facing a period of probably big, big, big, big change in so many places, key to handling that well and positively will be the extent to which employers find the right mechanism for engaging, and genuinely listen to their workforce. I mean, we just all know this in our everyday life, don't we? When things are handled well, in your own workplace in your own personal life, people feel better about things and engage more positively with things, and so on. When things are really badly handled, they retreat, withdraw, they, they have lots of negative feelings. Listening, I can't overstate the importance. And sometimes you see people that have exceptionally good listening skills. And sometimes you just see people just wanting to move on to the next kind of thing coming out of their own mouth. I know which I think is rather more effective.

Sarah 15:44 

So moving on without listening to you [laughter]

Shumon 15:48 

I've got one final question. So you are Sir Brendan Barber and I have this vision of all the knights meeting up every single year around a round table? [laughter] But what is it like being a knight?

Brendan 16:03 

It's not the most important thing that I think about when I wake up in the morning. [laughter] When you become a knight, you get a letter from an organisation that is an organisation for Knights for which quite a reasonable fee was being asked for wanting to join this organisation? The only benefit I could see was that you could marry your daughter in the crypt of some notable chapel somewhere. [laughter] which I never thought was something Felicity had ever particularly ever wanted to take up.

So it's a form of recognition isn't it? And in the trade union world, I found that there were always different feelings about it, the whole kind of idea about honours, some people, always rather negative about the idea for anybody from my background. I was always more positive than that and thought, you know, if in British society we're giving recognition to people who contributed in all these other different ways, why should you say they don't want to be a part of that? Trade union representatives give a real huge commitment, many on a voluntary basis, to try and make their workplaces better, their communities better, and should be able to be recognised for that as people have a different kind of contribution. So that was always my, my view. But I totally respect some people take a different view.

Sarah 17:41 

Well, on that very respectful note, demonstrating your ability there to see two sides of an argument, Brendan, thank you so much for sharing your insight on how you handled these high profile disputes, on the challenges of workplaces rebuilding after COVID and how important listening is in all of that. Thank you. This has been the Acas Podcast. If you'd like to get the latest episodes, then do feel free to like and subscribe review on podcast apps. We're on Apple podcasts, Spotify, most major Android apps, and you can find more information on conciliation on our website. We'll put some useful links in the session notes for this episode too. Thanks for listening.

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With the furlough scheme beginning to end, Acas adviser Sue Raftery shares her insights into the main challenges for workplaces and how to navigate them. We look at ideas for minimising the practical and emotional impact of transition from furlough, plus the critical conversations employers, managers and staff need to be having.

Episode resources:

Acas advice on furlough: www.acas.org.uk/coronavirus/furlough-scheme-pay

Acas webinar on flexible furlough (free): www.acas.org.uk/webinars

Transcript

Robbie Hurley 0:00  

Hello and welcome to The Acas Podcast. I'm Robbie Hurley, part of the communications team here at Acas. In this episode we'll be focusing on furlough and returning to work. Today I'm very lucky to be joined by Susan Raftery, one of the senior advisors who has been particularly involved in aiding the Acas response to the Coronavirus emergency. Hi, Susan. Thanks very much for coming on. So we know that you've been speaking to many employers recently about these issues. Could you give us a quick overview of what you've been hearing?

Susan Raftery 0:26  

Yeah, I think employers have got quite a difficult time at the moment. It was almost easier in sometimes some ways whilst we were all completely locked down, because they didn't really have any choice. But the managing the return to work is is difficult. It's difficult for employers, it's difficult for employees and it's trying to reach that balance of helping everyone to get back to work in a safer way. It's possible. I think probably the biggest issue that I have been hearing from employers is around getting people back in safely and also for those employees who may be can't get back into work at the moment, particularly around things like shielding and childcare. I've spoken to actually a couple of employers this morning who were saying that they've got employees who are saying, "We can't come back to work because we have no childcare." That is a big concern for employers and understand to be for employees as well.

Robbie Hurley 1:30  

Absolutely, I mean, more than 9 million people in the UK were on furlough at the peak of it, and obviously a lot of people are starting to return to work. What do you think, are the are the challenges and what are the conversations that should be being had between the employers and the employees?

Susan Raftery 1:46  

Yeah, you're absolutely right. And it's one of those unusual things where every employee has a different set of circumstances. So the employer is having to be extremely flexible in each in each different set of circumstances. I think the most important thing is not making assumptions, whether you're an employer or an employee. So there's a risk that employers will assume that, for example, right, furlough is coming to an end employee can come back to work full time. And of course, that's not always the case. As we've said, if they're carrying responsibilities, they may still have health issues. Similarly, employees, I think, are assuming I can go straight back into work into my old job in exactly the same way. And again, that's not always going to be the case. So it's it's trying to find that balance. There will be some employers that want employees to come back, for example, part time or doing the flexible furloughs, so maybe doing a few hours a week and being furloughed for the rest, some employees who will want to carry on working from home. They've been doing it successfully in their mind for the last three months and "Don't see why I can't continue to do that." And there will be so employees who are actually too scared to go back to work because they're concerned about things like having to travel on public transport. And I think it's remembering that the message is still, if employees can work from home, then they should still be working from home. But obviously, that's not always appropriate or practical for the employers to be able to allow them to do that. There's a myth amongst employees, some employees that they can ask for flexible working, working from home changing their hours, and they have to be given it. That's not the case. It's a right to request it. It's not a right to be given it. The biggest piece of advice we're giving to everybody is talk to each other. Employees, ask your employer, employer speak to employees and not making assumptions.

Robbie Hurley 3:50  

We touched on a really, really interesting point about people sort of anxiety about returning to work, and I'm just wondering what you've found and what you'd recommend. To make that transition back to work comfortable for employees,

Susan Raftery 4:04  

I've actually spoken to some occupational health experts who've said that they are seeing what they're calling COVID anxiety. And it's not anxiety about COVID itself, but rather about the return. And it's a question of communicating, the employer has to do a risk assessment of to make sure that their workplace is as COVID safe as it can be. And the government's advice is that if you have more than 50 employees, you should be publishing that risk assessment onto your website. But actually, we'd be saying less than 50 employees publish it. In any event, employers should be sharing that risk assessment with the employee and explaining it and whether it's small things like more hand sanitizers around, whether it's large things like having automatic doors, for example, but sharing that information with employees and again speaking to employees and asking them what they think. Because the employees are the ones who know where, for example, the bottlenecks will be of people coming in and out of the workplace. So it's it's talking to the employees and reassuring them and making sure the employee understands actually their input is incredibly important. But you're right, the psychological anxiety is huge if people haven't been in the workplace for three months, and "I've only been working on the other side of the screen," how do they know what it's going to look like? I've spoken to some employers who've said they've actually been doing like a mini video, if that makes sense that they've sent out to their employees. So a tour of the workplace, saying you know, these are how the doors are gonna open. This is how we're going to reconfigure the the desks for example, and and almost doing in a mini induction for employees. So if it was a new starter, what would you be doing, and doing that for employees? I know other employers that have been buddying people up. So if we've got people who've been in the workplace throughout, then they are then speaking to colleagues who are coming back in, who've been on either furlough or working from home. Because of course, we're sometimes more reassured by our workmates than we are necessarily by our managers. So it's it's thinking about all of those things to say to help them to understand look, we have your safety is of paramount importance to us, and this is what we've done to help you.

Robbie Hurley 6:42  

And typically, on that point, how do you think that employers and line managers are going to cope with such a unique situation? There's so many furloughed workers who are going to be coming back, some to the same organisation sometimes at different times, and sometimes into different teams. Have you seen any examples of how they're already dealing with this?

Susan Raftery 7:01  

I think it is something that employers really do need to think about. I certainly spoke to an employer who said, they'd got a situation, which I don't think is unusual, where they had a group of people in work who've worked throughout. They've brought some people back from furlough already. And they've got other people who are going to be coming back at a later stage. And it's always the grass is always greener. So the non furloughed employees assume the furloughed employees have been sitting at home and getting the town. The furloughed employees are possibly on less pay, because they may only be an 80% of their pay and have been out of the workforce for maybe three months and are worried that they're not going to understand the new the new routines, the new rules, the new procedures. So for employers, it's thinking about how they do that do they have a gradual return to work? I know some employers who were putting their employees into teams. So Team A would come in for a few weeks, and then Team B would come in for a few weeks. It's having that conversation with them, making sure that there isn't conflict because there is potential for conflict. As I say, each side has their own concerns. And it's thinking, well, how can we move this forward? What conversations can we have with them? And as I say, a lot of it has been around things like reinterpreting the employees. And also thinking about things like well, what would we do if the employee had been off sick for three months, six months, for example, a lot of organisations have policies around return to work for people who've been ill, or for example, people who are on maternity leave, well, can we use some of those policies and procedures and help line managers to follow those sorts of procedures to get people back into the workplace. I do know some people who've done the equivalent of keeping in touch days for furloughed workers in the same way they do for people on maternity leave. So it's just being a bit more imaginative and maybe using the policies you've already got. And looking at those and saying, "Well, we've managed this before, how can we do this going forward?" 

Robbie Hurley 9:24  

So we've heard that there are a lot of people who have gone off on furlough, and possibly weren't quite sure about the circumstances on which they've gone on to furlough, and then henceforth aren't quite sure about how they're going to come back to work. How do you think that they should be communicating with their employers? And what do you think employers can do to help sort of manage this engagement and trust as they return to work? 

Susan Raftery 9:50  

It is something that we have heard about and I can see how it can have risen because of course employers think was so relieved when the furlough scheme came in And to be fair, we're having to make very quick decisions. So we're sending people home on furlough, perhaps without explaining that actually, they were doing this to try and protect people's jobs, and that people were valued. And that's why they were putting them on furlough. Now, that message may have been lost for some employees. And if there hasn't been good communication during furlough, which again, some employers have had haven't had too many other things to do. So it's really a question of trying to get the message across to employees when they come back to reassure them that they are valued. And if for example, you are bringing people back maybe part time, or keeping some people on furlough and bringing some people back earlier. Then again, explaining why so, "Why have I still got to stay at home for the next six weeks, whereas the person I work next to is being brought back in?" So if there are reasons for It then explaining it. What I've seen some employers do is almost using the equivalent of a selection criteria a little bit like redundancy, but this isn't redundancy. So saying, "At the moment we've brought these people back because they've got these skills, however, we will need you to come back because you've got these other skills." So it's the reassurance and just being really honest and explaining why so even if the employer forgot to tell the employee why they're being furloughed, or didn't get that message across, holding their hands up and saying, "I didn't explain this very clearly, but you are a really valued member of the team. And this is what we're going to do going forward and sharing the plans going forward."

Robbie Hurley 11:44  

And then with line managers, obviously lots of them will have been furloughed will be coming back as some part time and full time and their staff will be doing the same with the teams that they manage. Do you have any specific advice for them and how they can cope as they come back into the workplace?

Susan Raftery 12:01  

Yes, it can be very difficult for managers, we do a lot of training for line managers. And I always say to them that I think in some ways, it's the hardest job, they've got to put into place the instructions from their senior management. But they've also got to keep their teams, productive, engaged, as well. And again, using those skills that they probably already have, talking to people, understanding what's happening, and actually really looking at their policies and procedures, because quite often we find that line managers, they are so busy, quite rightly doing the day to day work, that of course they're not necessarily that familiar with some of their policies around parental leave maternity leave until it happens. But actually looking at what the processes are and saying, "Oh, actually, I could use that I could adapt that", talking to their colleagues if there are other line managers, some of them We'll have had different experiences and may be able to come up with different ways of doing things. And again, being prepared to flag up your concerns to senior managers think sometimes line managers are worried that they have to make decisions on their own, because they need to be seen to be reacting. But actually having that taking a step back, talking to senior management, talking to HR, and if there are trade unions in the workplace, speaking to the trade union representatives, because this is a situation everybody wants the same thing they want the business to do well, they all want to get back into work and for the business to be productive. So having those conversations.

Robbie Hurley 13:44  

And now, of course, line managers - you tend to sort of talk about them in bigger organisations, but there's also lots of small to medium businesses that are now opening up and returning to work. We're looking at things like pubs and hairdressers, these kind of things, where pressures are possibly slightly different on staff and on employers, because they've naturally got a smaller team and maybe don't have things like line managers and HRs. Do you have any advice specifically on how maybe smaller businesses might be dealing with their staff coming back from furlough?

Susan Raftery 14:16  

I think there are, I think it's in some ways that there is going to be slightly easier now we've got the flexible furlough scheme, because of course, one of the difficulties was that previously furloughed workers could do no work. And there were small businesses who needed their staff in for short periods of time, but couldn't have come in and I absolutely understand why the rules were put in the way they will put. But I think now it is a good opportunity for smaller businesses to say, "Well, actually, we can't take you off furlough completely. But if we could have you back in for a few hours a week to help us get the business up and running." You mentioned bars I've certainly seen it with things like breweries - makes me sound like I'm slightly drink obsessed - but things like hairdressers, as you've said, places where we maybe don't need you back in full time. But we need you back in to help out so that we can start to build the business back up and get some income, whilst we still have the benefits of the furlough scheme being much more flexible. So I think for smaller employers, that is going to be really helpful to them.

Robbie Hurley 15:30  

Thank you so much, Susan. It was really enlightening. And I think it's really going to help a lot of people who've been on furlough, or who are going back to work and helping employers who are bringing their furloughed employees back in so thank you very much.

Susan Raftery 15:43  

Okay. You're welcome. Thank you.

Robbie Hurley 15:45  

Thanks very much for listening to today's Acas Podcast. You can find more useful links in today's session notes and on acas.org.uk and if you enjoyed today's episode and would like to listen to more, please like and subscribe.

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Black lives matter: the workplace

The Black Lives Matter movement has brought ingrained racism to the foreground. In this episode, Rachel Rockson, Chair of the Acas Race Equality Network, and Julie Dennis, Head of Diversity and Inclusion at Acas, share their insights into what organisations and individuals can do to make our workplaces truly more equal, including what intersectionality is and why it matters. We look at how racism and inequality are experienced and persist, what white people need to do to be part of change, and what organisations and leaders need to do to be responsible for change. Plus: how investing and committing to equality benefits everyone.

Acas advice

Improving equality, diversity and inclusion in workplaces: www.acas.org.uk/improving-equality-diversity-and-inclusion

Discrimination, bullying and harassment: www.acas.org.uk/discrimination-bullying-and-harassment

Webinar - what to do if you think you are being discriminate against: www.gotostage.com/channel/7f6b8485dc154e0c959e32e845163caa/recording/1405751bc4684196b3fe9e08c0ad9642/watch?source=CHANNEL

Equality, Diversity and Inclusion policy template: www.acas.org.uk/equality-policy-template

Acas helpline: 0300 123 1100

Key UK organisations

The Equality, Advisory and Support Service offers advice for people facing discrimination: www.equalityadvisoryservice.com

Government Equalities Office: www.gov.uk/government/organisations/government-equalities-office

Equality and Human Rights Commission: www.equalityhumanrights.com

External resources

This is not an exhaustive list and we highly recommend carrying out your own research too, but we hope you find these links useful:

McKinsey evidence for the positive impact of diversity and barriers to inclusion: https://www.mckinsey.com/business-functions/organization/our-insights/understanding-organizational-barriers-to-a-more-inclusive-workplace

Everyday racism: what should we do? Akala (3m): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZUvjAJGFkM

3 ways to be a better ally in the workplace | Melinda Epler (9m): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k12j-E1LsUU

Deconstructing White Privilege with Dr. Robin DiAngelo (20m): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwIx3KQer54&fbclid=IwAR3NG6kOtWHfbxz21LeMYvY9wyGmWKP4c5AGQnsaMZhmlVIe2ycr-4Gyyu8

An anti-racist reading list: https://www.theguardian.com/books/booksblog/2020/jun/03/do-the-work-an-anti-racist-reading-list-layla-f-saad

Transcript

Transcript available at www.acas.org.uk/podcast

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Juggling childcare or looking after others alongside working from home, without burning out, is a real struggle. Mental health expert Abigail Hirshman unpacks what employers, managers and carers themselves can and should do to build and support carers' wellbeing during coronavirus. 

Plus: what happens if we ignore this, the common mistakes employers make and how to broach the topic when you think your manager might not listen to you.

Episode links:

Mental health resources: www.acas.org.uk/mental-health-resources

Coronavirus and mental health guidance: www.acas.org.uk/coronavirus-mental-health

Homeworking: www.acas.org.uk/working-from-home

Rights at work: www.acas.org.uk/rightsatwork

You can also ring our helpline on 0300 123 1100.

Transcript

Sarah Guthrie 0:00  

Welcome to the Acas Podcast. I'm Sarah Guthrie, part of the communications team here at Acas. And today I'm joined by Abigail Hirshman, who is Head of Workplace Wellbeing and Mental Health at Acas. Thanks for joining me today. 

Abigail Hirshman 0:13  

Pleasure always to speak to you Sarah.

Sarah Guthrie 0:15  

So today we're focusing on mental health, particularly how we can support the mental health of people who are juggling caring responsibilities, and work, so, looking after children or other relatives during this period of lockdown. We've learned recently that schools are not opening fully until September. So I wondered if you could start off by saying what are the main challenges in relation to well being for people who are juggling, childcare and other caring responsibilities while working?

Abigail Hirshman 0:47  

Yeah, yes, absolutely. So that is quite a big question, though, isn't it really because I think even just hearing that message a couple of weeks ago about the fact that schools aren't opening as parents had anticipated, will have had an impact on people, would have made them think, "Oh my lord!" you know, some that expected maybe a bit of relief for a period of time, there is now a longer stretch. So it's really about how workplaces can think about how can they continue to support the employees to work, knowing that they can be continually caring for children. So the wellbeing impacts of this is not static, it will have gone up and down over the period. And it may have been at the beginning that people may have thought, "Well, actually, this is quite nice. I'm getting to spend some more time at home with my children." But as I said, as this has gone on, I think there have been further challenges for people. And, but I suppose what I was thinking about when we decided we were going to talk about this was whether it's worth just rewinding a little bit. And so if we think say back to maybe February, okay, so February of this year, so think maybe your care of two small children, and they go to school or nursery, and then someone says to you, "For the next six months, we need you to do your job from home." And you may think great "No, no more commuting, no more business suits, no more high heels. That's fantastic." But then at the same time, your manager or your employer says to you, "Well, actually, all schools and nurseries are going to close as well. So you can have to look after your small children whilst you work." And that's essentially what happened to people that this information was given to them. It wasn't the employers fault or the managers fault. But this information was suddenly given to a whole group of people in the workplace, that very quickly, they had to suddenly understand that basically, the world of work and the world of parenting became entirely combined. So I think what people had to do was to adapt really, really quickly. And I think from a positive perspective, we can say that employers have really benefited from a workforce it's met that challenge, you know, and continue to adapt. But as I said, there are going to be lots of peaks and troughs to that challenge, and it's how the employer and the manager and the individual navigate those different rises and falls as we carry on through this period.

Sarah Guthrie 3:01  

Yeah, that's really interesting. I wondered if you could maybe unpack a bit more of the impact if we - employers, line managers or individuals - do nothing about this?

Abigail Hirshman 3:16  

Right. Okay. That is an interesting question. So, as I said, you're now, you put, I always like to put myself in the heads of people who are in this experience or having experience I have got, I've got children at home, but they're a bit older, they're teenagers. And I think the challenges for parents with teenagers is different for parents of small children. So I think we have to recognize as an employer, that we have people with different, you know, family setups, so the employer that does nothing that ignores essentially that this person is doing their job was managing teenagers, young children, whatever it is, it's it's going to have massive consequences, isn't it? It's about that person is basically going to feel not recognized, and not understood, for the challenges that that's arising and lack of recognition and lack of being understood by your employer does have a massive impact on wellbeing and has an impact on motivation. So let's hope that there aren't many employers out there who are doing nothing. But I think what employers are grappling with is "What is the thing that we can do?" because those employers, again, like the parents, and the, you know, the mothers and the fathers and the carers had to adapt very quickly, employers have had to adapt very quickly, they've had to think about, "What can we do to continue to meet the business demands, given the fact that my business has moved to a totally different location and distributed location," but equally, "How can we continue to adapt? What can we do as a business to adapt?" So it's understandable that employers may not have been thinking about you know, John, and his two small kids or you know, or Sarah and her two small children, they're thinking about the business. So how can they have those conversations and understand what the challenges are for the people who are looking after small children, those conversations have to happen.

Sarah Guthrie 5:01  

Following on from that, what do you think are the main mistakes that employers are making when they're having those conversations with their staff?

Abigail Hirshman 5:12  

Well, I think employers and this is why I sort of went back a bit, this is why I went to this thing. Well, what would we have done differently with hindsight, and I think it's about having those conversations about what's realistic, what is realistic for that person to be able to do, given they've also got these other priorities and demands? And how is the individual going to manage those different challenges. So it's not just all on the employer, to give them a whole host of, you know, sort of reductions or changes or adaptations, it's about them working with the employee to understand how that person continue to do their job whilst managing the children at home.

Sarah Guthrie 5:50  

And you just said it's not all on the employer, there. At Acas when we're talking about mental health, generally, we talk about how it's a shared responsibility between line managers, individuals and employees. On this issue specifically of supporting people when they're juggling, could you just outline what those different responsibilities look like for each of those players involved? 

Abigail Hirshman 6:12  

Yeah, absolutely. So essentially, the employer will have made a decision and this is this happened pre pandemic, this isn't something new, an employer makes a decision, say, to take on a new project or to, you know, do something different in the workplace that is going to have people impact. So the employer has to have responsibility for thinking, well, I've got five people in my team that are going to have to do this. So ordinarily, they'd have had five people in their team who they knew worked, you know, a collective amount of hours, they may still have those five people in their team, but those collective hours are going to be different. They're not going to be maybe in the same nine to five space. So it's about the manager, the employee thinking, "Well, okay, this is the end goal that I need to get to in order to reach you know, complete that project. These are the amount of hours I'm going to need to get to finish that project." I know I'm being quite simplistic, but it's really breaking it down and thinking, what are going to be the demands on those five people to complete that. And of those demands, I know the two of them have got additional home life demands. So this is what the employer needs to achieve. The employer then needs to make sure that the manager is entirely aware of what those projects outputs are, what does the manager need on a daily transactional basis to work with the employees, their employees, their staff, to fulfill those the demands of that project. And then the manager has to have those very honest and open conversations with people in the team. And it's about a team approach. And this is where it gets quite complicated because you will have a team where you'd have people who are managing children or managing children's if you can ever manage children but you know what I mean, who are looking after their children, and people who aren't. So how do the people who aren't looking after children don't feel that they're taking the load and how to people who have got the children don't feel too guilty? So these are complex situations. But the first point is about what do we need to achieve? Who are the people that I've got in my team to achieve that? And how are we going to do it? So it's a combination of quite compassionate leadership, understanding leadership, but also quite transactional management, thinking about one of the things I need to get done.

Sarah Guthrie 8:15  

So seeing how all of those different players fit together and as an employer thinking about what are the downstream effects of the decisions that you make, as a manager working out how to support your individuals that you're working with and as an individual, being able to give feedback and show what you are actually able to do at the moment. And we've been talking about children and I just wanted to acknowledge that for a lot of people, it's not necessarily children, it's adults with health conditions or older relatives. Is there anything that's particular to that group of people that would help them have the conversation with their employers

Abigail Hirshman 9:01  

I think what one of the things that we've sort of recommended we talk about is sometimes rehearsing that conversation or writing it down during the script. So people aren't necessarily confident about having these discussions because he's a new conversation they've had to have, they may have to, their employee may have to know about stuff that they didn't actually have any awareness or before or not. That's right. But actually, these these conversations have suddenly gone on fast forward. So I always think about, it's a bit like a time lapse video. That's how it feels like with a pandemic, so things are happening very quickly at speed that maybe in the past, you know, wouldn't have ever come up would have taken a long time. But all of these things are about, ""hat are the demands and challenges that people in my workplace have? And how does that affect their ability, that opportunity in their time to be able to do the job that I need them to do?" So regardless of the demand that they have, it's how that affects their role and how they can discuss it with their managers. And as I said, Sometimes we're hurting those conversations. Thinking about how the employer or the manager might respond to some of the things you're raising is worth doing. And also sometimes writing down what you plan to do as an individual, you recognize that this, this is your job and you recognize your employer is supportive, but sometimes being able to say, well, one at some of the things I might be able to do, so one employee I was talking to recently, they negotiated with some of their staff who had additional responsibilities, about thinking about the difference between their work that was quite heavy on the brain, you know, so they will thinking work that they needed to do, and the work that was a little bit more, you know, easy to do so sort of diary entries, or answering emails or those more sort of prosaic workplace tasks that we have to do. So working with the employees at which time maybe for them, they were able to do the more heavy thinking stuff, and when they could do the more light touch stuff, and then how that then impacted back on the work outputs and the work team.

Sarah Guthrie 10:56  

So actually taking the time to think through in detail not, just the task that needs to be done, but also how you're going to do them and how that will affect your own wellbeing and wellbeing of the other people and colleagues and teams around you.

Abigail Hirshman 11:10  

Yeah, I think that's come up time and time again, and this has been in our conversations, Sarah, and lots of conversations I've had with employers is about boundaries. And boundaries are sort of, you know, a thing that employers and managers and individuals can all really really benefit from using. And I don't think I'm seeing probably quite enough of that. So what I'm, what I'm seeing is I'm seeing you've got employers who are really flexible, who do the well being stuff, you know, they would win awards in well being because they're so fantastic at it. But actually, sometimes those employers and managers find it harder to put in some lines with employees. And that may be a line as if "I need you to switch off. I understand you're really dedicated, you really want to work, but I need you to switch off at this time. And I'm going to make sure that we have conversations that enable that," or you get the employer who so flexible and wanting to be so supportive, oh, it's fine. You know, just do what you can, you know, we trust you, we really value you. And that's all great. Please don't think that I'm not saying that's not a good thing. But the employee doesn't really know where they are. Because what's happened is they feel sort of so committed and so not grateful. That's probably not the right word. But so, you know, so engaged with the employer that they think, "Oh, well, I'll just do that extra because actually, they really are trusting me." And what the employer then does, because they haven't put in clear guidelines and boundaries, as in I won't contact you after three o'clock because I know that's when you're feeding the children or whatever it is. They then put in those extra things. "Oh, actually, can you just fill out that report for me? I know you don't work those extra hours, but would you just mind doing that?" and the employee feels responsible for then going, "Oh, okay, then" and then it all starts to go horribly wrong. So putting in boundaries and expectations about what you have in reviewing. These don't need to be static and one offs is really, really important. And then the other thing on boundaries, which I just want to highlight, and I understand that a lot of people who are going to be working at home with children are going to be in combined different family groups who have single parents, you know, blended families, you know, different, different relationships. But what some research has shown recently is that we have a default parent. So we have a parent who is one that the child is most likely to come and interrupt when that child that parents doing their work. So it's not that the other parent doesn't do lots of other domestic stuff. But it's about that interrupted work time. So what I'm finding with some discussions with family, friends and people is that some of the couples are really negotiating the boundaries between them and how one parent takes time. And that's, that's protected time. This is when I'm going to be working at my computer and you mustn't interrupt me in those situations you need to go to the other parent and understand there isn't always another parent to go to But it's just trying to make those boundaries at home as well as at work.

Sarah Guthrie 14:05  

Yeah. And actually, that brings out what you were saying earlier that although as we focus on the workplace, we know that we are whole people, we don't leave ourselves when we go to work. And that has particularly come out in this pandemic, when we can't leave our homes and so we have to be our home self under works up in the same place.

Abigail Hirshman 14:22  

Yes, absolutely. And I think, sorry, I'm gonna get excited here because I think there's a real, there's a real benefit to this situation. And it's really humanizing people. You know, we come into the workplace as sort of like a fully formed person. Nobody saw us that morning, sort of like spooning cereal into the kids mouths, you know, also like balancing and all the things that we have to do as a parent, you know, sort of like what are the challenges, packed lunches and all those different things and then we come into the office and we sort of got our game face on and we're ready to go. But what this has shown is actually, there are skills and qualities that we bring into the workplace actually really beneficial, and I was on the too, I was on a team call with my team that I work with and then my manager, and we were on the call and once we're having the call, there was like a little knock on the door. I don't even know there's a knock Actually, this little person walked into the room and a very, very adorable looking two year old and she came to bring her daddy some crisps. And she got on her lap and I got a little bit of broody as I do, because I do like young children and we will like an eyes and she's cute. Isn't she lovely? But what it did it did two things. It sort of showed us a window into our managers world that maybe we weren't aware of before. And it also made us think as team as individuals. Oh, actually. So when I'm contacting him at eight o'clock at night, because I don't have that additional responsibility, is he actually able to respond to me? So it it humanizes the people you work with and makes you understand in a very quick way, what they've got going on for them. So please don't, to employees, to managers, to individuals, please don't you know, keep your child locked in another room when you're on workplace calls. Maybe it's not always going to be appropriate, there are going to be some professions when actually, you know, it would not work well, but actually equally it does, as I said, humanize those relationships and help you understand things from the other person's perspective and see what they've got going on.

Sarah Guthrie 16:18  

Thanks, Abigail. That's a really valuable advice. For our listeners who might be listening to this thinking, "There's no way my manager would deal with a conversation like that well, or I just don't want to admit that I'm struggling, because I want to be competent, and my manager relies on my competence," what would you say to those people who are really actually dreading having conversation about this, and so avoid it entirely?

Abigail Hirshman 16:47  

I would, I think the first point I want is to recognize that this is a reality that this is a reality for people who are in a situation where maybe they don't feel their jobs to secure they may have seen colleagues furloughed, there may be an organization that may be facing redundancy. So in that climate, it is even harder for people who to admit or to acknowledge or to express that maybe they are finding the workload too challenging or too demanding, given their other responsibilities at home. I was, I was talking to a business yesterday and they are a company that has chargeable time because of the jobs that they do. And the expectation is still on all of the employees that they still do the same amount of chargeable time that they did prior to the pandemic. Some of these will have children at home, some of them won't. And even if you haven't got responsibilities at home, we all know that we know that people are challenged, you know, from a mental capacity at the moment. So I think that is a risky strategy for business to take. So that's my sort of first point is just think about the longer term impacts of these decisions you're making at the moment. You are possibly going to be a workplace that's going to have less people, as you go forward, because you may have to do cost cutting measures, we understand that. So the people that you have in your workplace it's about keeping them as healthy and as well now for the future. So that's sort of the bigger picture answer. But in terms of the individual who doesn't feel able to disclose or to talk about something with their employer, as I said, I completely understand that, but they also have a responsibility to look after themselves and to think about what is possible, what can I actually do, and what do I need to change? What do I need that's differently given to me differently so that I can keep my work responsibilities going, whilst absolutely not making myself on? Well, it's about rehearsing it's about writing down a list. It's about thinking, what do I need to get from this conversation? Do I want just somebody to listen to understand that actually, this is a struggle. Do I want some practical changes to my workload? Is it about taking my leave differently? Is it taking half days or working slightly different adjusted hours. So there are lots of different practical routes that an employee can do. And if you have a list of options in front of you and showing that you thought about it, even the most unresponsive manager would be able to work with that because it'd be something that would be practical and tangible for them to work with.

Sarah Guthrie 19:18  

Thank you, Abigail. That's really important advice. Just to finish off, what would be your one takeaway that you wish we could remember from this podcast?

Abigail Hirshman 19:29  

Oh gosh Sarah, one takeaway? [Abigail and Sarah laugh] I know that's very challenging for me. Know the challenges that your staff are facing, understand the demands they have on them, work with them to negotiate a different way that they may be able to meet those demands, help them understand what the challenges are for the business. So be as open and as authentic and as available as you can about the challenges within the business, the challenges for managers and work together collectively in order to meet those.

Sarah Guthrie 20:08  

Thank you Abigail. That is a brilliant note to end on. You've been listening to the Acas Podcast, we've put some useful links on mental health and homeworking in the session notes for this episode, or you can visit our website at acas.org.uk. Thanks for listening. 

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Acas workplace adviser Rich Jones shares his insights for employers, managers and returning workers on how we can return well. We explore: the major issues, the best way to raise concerns, why listening and taking action matters, what role employers, managers and workers can each play and what to do if your plans need to change.

Useful links:

Acas guidance: https://www.acas.org.uk/working-safely-coronavirus/returning-to-the-workplace

UK Government guidance: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/working-safely-during-coronavirus-covid-19

HSE guidance: https://www.hse.gov.uk/coronavirus/working-safely/index.htm

If you are concerned about a workplace, contact the Health and Safety Executive, or your local authority. You can report your concern anonymously to HSE: https://hsegov.microsoftcrmportals.com/workingsafelyenquiries/ or call 0300 790 6787 (Monday to Friday, 8:30am to 5pm)

Acas tailored support for your workplace: https://www.acas.org.uk/tailored-support-for-your-workplace

Transcript

Sarah Guthrie 0:00 

Welcome to the Acas Podcast. I'm Sarah Guthrie part of the communications team here at Acast. And today I'm joined by Rich Jones, who is one of our workplace advisors based in Leeds. Well, thanks for joining me today Rich. Today we're talking about returning to work, which is obviously a huge issue, and one that no one has really had to deal with in a pandemic in this country before at least in most people's living memories. So I wondered if you could start off by giving an insight into what you think the major concerns are for employers and employees.

Rich Jones 0:32 

Yeah, I mean, I think you've you've prefaced it nicely there. I don't think we can underestimate just what strange circumstances we're in at the moment. We really don't know how it's affecting other people because it seems to be massive impacts across the board but in very different ways. And, and I know this from because my role brings me into contact with lots of employers, lots of trade unions, and various other organisations and I've talked these things through and there's absolutely no one size fits all, in terms of what's going off here. I think the other thing is we've got to remember some people have been working throughout this. And so there are massive issues of equality, in terms of some people are working, not just working but working longer hours working harder working in harder environments, and others, for whatever reason found themselves either working from home and potentially the job has become slightly easier or maybe furloughed, in which case some people are are probably struggling financially as a result of that. Others may actually quite likely the break. So there's huge differences which themselves might cause some tension as people start to go back into what's being called the new normal and people start going back to work. The evidence suggests from talking to these different bodies that a lot of staff have shown a lot of goodwill to get us this far. Without that goodwill, we'd be in a far worse place. But the message coming through loud and clear from those staff and from the bodies that represent them, is that they don't want this to just go back to what it used to be like, you know, there's been lots of good things that have come out of this crisis, and the goodwill and the relationships that have been built and some of the new systems and processes that have been put in place, there may well be a role for those moving forwards. And we don't want a knee jerk reaction to just go back to how things used to be. But but at the same time, businesses have got it really difficult because they've got to balance the needs of individuals against their survival and the need to move forward. So that's going to be the sort of difficulty we face in trying to balance the needs of individuals and the needs of businesses to survive and prosper. And sometimes those two things are compatible. Sometimes they're not. And that's what's gonna lead to the tension.

Sarah Guthrie 3:09 

So, almost as you're talking, I'm thinking, imagining that I'm a, you know, a business that is thinking of opening up in the next couple of weeks couple of months. How do I do that that balancing well? How do I approach this issue of returning physically to the workplace well?

Rich Jones 3:28 

The big message is do not underestimate the concerns and the fear that some employees have about returning to work. I've seen various statistics, anything from 40% of the workforce, right up to 70% of the workforce, who are being asked to return have real concerns about what that's going to involve. So employers have got to first of all, bear that in mind and talk to and listen to all of the employees. If all they do is draw up a plan and say, "Right, we've spoken to some consultants, this is what's going to happen," I think that's a recipe for disaster. Because we all know in Acas that you need to take people with you. So being right isn't good enough. You've got to show you're right. And and showing your right is talking to people explaining the logic behind decisions that are being proposed, and listening to concerns and dealing with those so that it reduces that sort of tension that people have. And you take people with you that way. So I think that's the first thing I would say. And that's based on an understanding that the issues for individuals will be very different. One of the big problems that we come across is is managers and people judging others by the what, what it's meant for them, or how they've, they've dealt with a particular situation. But of course, just because I can deal with maybe working from home or wearing peopIe It doesn't mean that somebody else can do so we have to take This whole person approach, because you could be talking about somebody, for instance, who is worried about not going back to work, but about catching the virus and then going back to where they live, where maybe they're shielding a vulnerable person or something like that, and passing the virus on to them. It could be that people are concerned about how they're going to get to work and back. It could be that cleanliness is an issue. So people might want assurances that there's been a real deep clean to the premises. Others might be worried about things like social distancing. And another issue might be depending on the circumstances you're working in, you know, the provision of PPE, and is, is it adequate? Is there enough of it? Is Is there an alternative way of dealing with the return to work that doesn't involve BP at all? So it's a really complex picture. I'm sorry, that was a very long answer. But there's a lot of things that I've I've picked up on my travels and I'm just trying to relay as much as I can to get a feel for the The complex landscape we're in.

Sarah Guthrie 6:02 

Yeah, because it's complex on so many different levels. So given that complex picture, what's the best way of managers in an organisation dealing with say someone coming to them and asking for, say, a specific approach that suits their situation? How do you balance that with organisations needing to set overall policy?

Rich Jones 6:24 

Okay, well, again, there's not going to be a one size fits all here, but it's about listening with an open mind to any concerns that employees have, and listening to what sorts of suggestions they may have to try and get around those. So rather than the employer suggesting things, listen to anything that's coming from the employee themselves, because they probably know what's gonna work and what's not gonna work, whereas the employee or the employer, because they're not that person, they may not. It's not rocket science, but it's about listening. And then it's about trying to find strategies that will alleviate the concerns of those individuals, it could be as simple as explaining what's what's going to happen, because they may be under a false assumption. Or it could be that there are adjustments, which could be quite easily put in place, which the employer had never thought about, and which aren't going to be a big burden on the business. But equally, it could be that the employee doesn't really know what to suggest. And the employer is a bit of a loss because things have to happen and they can't find another way around it. And that's where you have to have a very difficult conversation with people about what the options are. It's going to depend on each individual business, it's going to depend on the amount of labour that they need and potentially how desperate it is that the business gets running again for its survival, but it could ultimately come to the point where employees have to say to people, "We've tried to deal with these as sensitively as we can your concerns. But ultimately, we have to, we have to move forward on this. And we can't just leave you sitting at home. And that's where potentially a long, long way down the line, employers might be looking at disciplinary action, but the last thing they should do is jump straight to that premise and start waving the stick that if you don't come back to work, I'll be sacking you. That's absolutely the wrong way to do it. And all that will happen is it will antagonise people will lead to complaints, wasted time tribunal complaints and you might well lose a very good employee and have to re recruit at difficult time. When by talking to the individual and spending a bit more time with them, you might have been able to find an accommodation to keep them. So I've been concentrating a lot there on individuals but of course employers also need to remember that if they're in an environment where there are recognised trade unions or there are staff associations or groups of workers who they traditionally consult, it would be good practice to do that first. So try and get some sort of agreement in place that's pooled the knowledge of those people, before you start presenting plans to individuals. Again, it's just about two heads are better than one. And if you consult with all relevant parties, you're likely to get an outcome that A is going to be more acceptable to everybody, and be is more likely to work.

Sarah Guthrie 9:26 

Yeah, thank you Rich, that's really interesting. It feels like we've been talking a lot from the employer level, what’s the role of managers in this, like, how can they play a part in helping an organisation return to work well?

Rich Jones 9:40 

The difficulty is that with a senior management team, you're talking about a small number of individuals in most organisations, but with middle managers and supervisors, you could have quite a large number of people. The wider spread of people you're talking about, the more risk there is that you get inconsistency both in the message that's conveyed, and in the approach that's taken to solving problems. So I think it's about trying to encapsulate in writing the agreement that I just talked about that hopefully you can reach with union staff, associations, groups of staff. And then making sure that when that's rolled out, everybody's clear about what the message is, so that you don't get those inconsistency is sure you're always going to get some managers who view things slightly differently. But if you can stop some of the beginning consistencies, then that's going to lead to a better implementation of the strategy and a happier workforce. And that might be involve some sort of training you know, you might have to sit people down and talk them through the why and and how this is going to work, take questions from them because of course, managers and supervisors may have concerns about the approach their employees as well. So similar sort of approach, but they have a key role. And we often find that it's the middle managers in organisations, that can often be an issue when an organisation is trying to embark on a big change like this, if they don't understand the message or if they're not signed up to it.

Sarah Guthrie 11:19 

So spending some time on those, like actually prepping everybody at all points of the organisation organisation to cascade the message.

Rich Jones 11:28 

Yeah, so recognising that they're their managers, but they're also individuals. So you need to have two conversations with them. One is about how are you? What are your concerns? What can I do to help? The other is, this is the approach we're thinking of taking. What do you think about it? Any concerns, any other suggestions on how we can improve it? Any problems with you going away and cascading that now? So you have the two conversations and hopefully, that deals with your concern.

Sarah Guthrie 11:54 

Yeah. Almost as as we mentioned at the beginning of the podcast, this is unpredented and I have pictured in my head, almost this grand plan that you kind of roll out and then you do it and it works. When in reality this is this is not something that we can control down to the nth degree. What would you say to an employee who perhaps has started to return to work? What happens if, if it's not working? Or if things change? How can they deal with this as an evolving situation?

Rich Jones 12:28 

Again, it's about talking. But your your question is actually very pertinent because one of the things that we find in Acast is that no matter how good an employer is, no matter how good a manager or senior manager is, they never quite get the full story from employees about what's concerning them. Partly because people are concerned sometimes to voice their concerns for fear of been seen as a troublemaker or something like that. And partly because sometimes supervisors and managers sift out what might seem unpalatable parts of staff concerns when they feed them the line. So what we say is senior managers never ever get the full picture of how staff are feeling. But it's this is about trying to get as accurate a picture as you can about what the staff concerns are so that you can take remedial action which addresses those concerns, rather than addresses perceived concerns. And and it's quite interesting because we actually do quite a lot of work in this area, which we don't tend to publicise because employers don't normally want to publicise it, understandably, but we actually use our badge of independence and impartiality, to talk, either individually or in groups, to staff about what their real concerns are. And because we are independent and we don't work for the organisation, they will actually tell us what the real concerns are, and what they would like to see done differently and we can then use them to shine a light back to the organisation and say, "This is what the real picture looks like. So now now you understand that you can go away and devise an appropriate action plan." So that's where we get that, that sort of understanding from because we do that sort of work.

Sarah Guthrie 14:16 

So thinking about it, actually, from the employees perspective, for a moment, imagine, say, I had a concern, what advice would you have for individuals who are concerned? How can they feedback their concerns in a way that really helps employers to hear and act on them?

Rich Jones 14:32 

Well, the first thing is to be diplomatic. What you have to remember when you're an employee, is that you, your only power is to influence people. So the best way to do that is to take a reasonable approach, and to make sure that the logic in your argument stands out because it is the logic of an argument that will win the day, rather than somebody threatening somebody shouting, somebody's making all sorts of accusations which we've all seen. might make people feel good, but actually, it doesn't lead to good employment relations moving forward, and he doesn't normally get what you want anyway. So it's about trying to be clear what it is that you concerned about how you're going to articulate. And also try and come up with an alternative. Rather than just being a blocker and saying, I don't want to do that. Offer a suggestion about what you might do instead that you think might be appropriate or might be the word I'm looking for, might be acceptable to the employer as well. So you, you're trying to find a win win, but it's not necessarily the win win that you set out to achieve, if that makes sense.

Sarah Guthrie 15:42 

Yeah, yeah. So diplomacy and logic to help you kind of move forward in a way that is a bit more watertight than throwing emotion around perhaps?

Rich Jones 15:55 

Yeah, diplomacy, logic and the positive spin on it. So trying to look to what you can do rather than what you can't?

Sarah Guthrie 16:03 

So imagine as an employee that you've done all of what we've been talking about, maybe your employer has consulted with you or they haven't, and you've raised your concerns, but you still don't think that they are being compliant to the guidance that the government set out. What can an employee do in that situation?

Rich Jones 16:24 

Well, hopefully, many employees will be in a position where they have a good enough relationship with their boss to be able to talk to them. That's the starting point. But I accept that sometimes these things are difficult and it's quite sensitive. So if employees don't feel able to do that, they may want to seek further advice. And obviously, there's the Acas helpline, there's the Acas website and there's a whole host of other organisations that can help. One of the things we would always suggest if if somebody comes to our helpline, for instance, with a concern, and we think it could help is, "Are you a member of a trade union? Because if you are and the trade unions have often got a lot of help that they can offer, both in terms of advice and in terms of representing individuals."

Sarah Guthrie 17:07 

Thank you Rich, that's really useful. And of course, people can also contact HSE if they have concerns, and we'll put links to that in the session notes for this episode. So thank you, Rich, it has been great talking to you today about returning to work and unpacking the complexities of that and how we do it in a way that smooth, that reduces anxiety that keeps communication up so that we can return to work. It's been great talking to you today. So thank you.

Rich Jones 17:33 

Thank you, Sarah. All the best.

Sarah Guthrie 17:34 

This has been the Acas Podcast. You can find useful links to our website and guidance on returning to work, plus links to the Health and Safety Executive, if you have a concern about a workplace you're returning to in the session notes for this episode. Thanks for listening.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

In our first episode, Acas Chief Executive Susan Clews shares her key insight into what organisations can do to navigate the challenges that coronavirus presents. We look at building trust, returning to work and communicating in a crisis.

Plus: Susan shares what she has personally learnt about leadership during coronavirus.

For coronavirus workplace advice: www.acas.org.uk/coronavirus

Full Transcript available at https://shows.acast.com/acaspodcast

Transcript

Sarah Guthrie 0:00 

Welcome to the Acas podcast. I'm Sarah Guthrie, part of the communications team at Acas and today I'm talking to Susan Clews, our Chief Executive, about what organizations can do to manage their people, their work, their plans in this difficult time. So Susan, I thought we'd kick off by actually just asking you what kind of issues employers and employees are coming to Acas with at the moment.

Susan Clews 0:25 

All sorts of customers are coming to Acas with a whole range of issues, and they go right from employees who are interested in knowing what their rights are, whether they can get paid, if they're self isolating, or whether they are, you know, kind of quick concerns about their mental health, for example. So we're getting lots of queries to our helpline on those sorts of issues. And we're also hearing from employers too, who are particularly interested about how they keep in touch with workers during the pandemic, and particularly if they've got lots of people working from home. And then increasingly now we've got employers looking at how they can get people back to work safely. And that's a really important issue, obviously, for employees and for employers alike. We're seeing employers, I think, looking at how they can change practices in the workplace. I think it's really, really important here that they work with their employees to look at what the challenges are going to be, and how they can adapt work practices to safely accommodate people back in the office or back in the factory or shop.

Sarah Guthrie 1:35 

Lots of challenging issues there through employers and employees. Thinking about Acas for a moment as an example, and the role of employers and managers as leaders of their organizations.What do you think has been the principle behind your leadership that has really helped in this situation?

Susan Clews 1:54 

I think there's, in all times, it's good if you're open and honest with your people. That's something that's important to me and something I try and live in Acas. But I think during in a time like Coronavirus pandemic, where there is masses of uncertainty, and individuals might be balancing all sorts of different challenges both at home and at work, it's even more important to create a secure and clear place in the workspace so that people know what's expected of them. They know they can trust their senior leaders, and they understand that leaders have their best interests at heart. And so we've been trying to focus very clearly on those people issues, and to tell our people that they really matter to us. And we're doing that more than we've ever done before. So I think the tone of our communication has been clearer and more personal than it has been in the past. And I think that's been a good thing, actually, to really change try and get a more personal relationship with our colleagues through communicating and creating that trust with our people.

Sarah Guthrie 3:09 

Really interesting. You mentioned trust there. This has been a really challenging time and I know from our helpline that trust has been a feature of this crisis - of any crisis. What advice would you give to employers or employees who feel that there's been perhaps a breakdown of trust during this time?

Susan Clews 3:35 

I suppose trust is a scarce commodity isn't it and it's easily lost and can take quite a long time to rebuild. But I'd put a more positive perspective on and say if you're if you're concerned that trust has been eroded during Coronavirus, and that's perfectly understandable if it has been with all of the the challenges and demands placed upon businesses, I think it's about maybe accepting that and being a bit more open about acknowledging that maybe the relationships in the organization aren't where you want them to be. And then to take some really practical steps to rebuild trust. And that looks, to me, that looks like things like being really clear and honest in communication. It's about encouraging two way communication as well, so seeking feedback from your employees and listening to their concerns. I think it's about looking at how you collaborate with people in the business, so how you involve them in maybe planning some of the solutions for the organization and being honest about the challenges that you're facing. And I think those sorts of activities gradually rebuild trust. I don't think there's any one magic wand you can use that's going to instantly get trust back again, but I guess if you're an employee in a business what you're looking for is a really clear statement from your employer about what's important to them. You're looking for that to be backed up by their actions and their ongoing statements. And then you want to know that you're valued as an individual. I think that really helps to rebuild trust as well. So acknowledging the massive commitments and flexibility that people have shown over the last few weeks, all of those things are steps towards rebuilding trust.

Sarah Guthrie 5:32 

And taking that to this issue you mentioned of how we open up workplaces and return to work. Could you perhaps give some advice on what practically that might look like for employers or managers who are thinking about the future months?

Susan Clews 5:50 

Of course, businesses are keen to get back to work, but they want to do that safely. And I think there's something really important about being very clear to your employees to explain that safety is absolutely at the heart of decision making. And then employees understand that your desire to get the business back up and running again, if it's had to limit production or limit its operation, that their safety is going to be at the center of considerations as well as meeting customer needs. So I think there are some really clear messages business can come take to demonstrate to employees that their safety matters, then I think there are some actions that businesses can take to work through carefully the guidance that's been provided. So there's some government guidance on returning to work and safe working that encourages employers to talk to their employees about the challenges and the concerns they have and to seek views of employees about how best to mitigate the risks in the workplace. So involving your employees or your reps if you've got a trade union, your, your reps, workplace representatives, in that risk assessment and being clear with your people what steps you're taking to mitigate the risks, I think will help. So they're the first two steps I would take: making a really clear commitment to health and safety and individuals safety, and then to involve your employees in that process. I think there's also steps employers can take that include things like being really clear how people raise concerns, because even with the best laid plans, things don't always quite go according to plan. And so if an employee has a concern, how do they raise those issues in the workplace, and with who, and being clear that there won't be retaliation to employees if they raise queries about health and safety is important too, because it's all about trying to create that environment of safety, security and trust for employees.

Sarah Guthrie 8:01 

That sounds really valuable advice, which perhaps is sometimes easier to talk about than to do. So as, could you perhaps give employers or managers who are listening to this, some maybe simple steps that they can take away today, they might be thinking, Oh, this is too much. I've got too much to think about, I can't handle this. What are the simple things that they can do that will help their organizations recover in the long run?

Susan Clews 8:32 

That's a great question, Sarah, because it is daunting, isn't it, when we've had such a massive shift to remote working or no working to then think how can we safely get back to work again, so I absolutely understand those concerns. And, and as an employee and myself, I'm thinking through these things for Acas as well. I think just take it a step at a time is probably the best advice and to have a look at the government guidance on safer working and see how that applies to your business, and how you would undertake a risk assessment for your business, and then set out some really clear steps about how you go back, you could go back to work safely. I'd also look at this in a series of steps. So you don't...it's probably impossible to get straight back to working in the way you did before. So in my organization, we're thinking about how we could reopen our offices, but only for a really small number of people and keep it very small to scale to start with so that we can test out the sort of practices we're putting in place and we're looking at things like how we'd sit, how we'd arrange seating in the office so that people are still socially distance to look at things like the entrances and exit points to make sure we can get people in and out of the building safely, how we'd use lifts in a safe way to maintain distancing and to really look at all those really practical things that happen on the on a day to day basis at work and how you can plan for safety in those areas, obviously some really important issues like PPE and what equipment is necessary for your business. But I think to keep it as simple as possible, look for the really priority actions. And then what we're going to do in our organization will be to think about how do we test some of those plans, maybe with a very small number of employees coming back to work, so that we can learn real time whether those plans were right or not. And then we can change them if they're not quite right as well and learn as we go. So baby steps I think is the best way of this and being open to views feedback from your employees about what's working, and what could be done even better to create a safe working environments as well.

Sarah Guthrie 10:53 

So baby steps and feedback.

Susan Clews 10:56 

Baby steps and feedback will really help with this. There's no one right answer to return to work. And I think they're, they're are two principles that will help organizations get back to work.

Sarah Guthrie 11:08 

Well, thank you very much, Susan, that's been fascinating for me. And for our listeners, I'm sure. Is there anything else you would like to say as a parting shot that you have learned through this crisis yourself that you would like to share?

Susan Clews 11:24 

I think probably the, the biggest learning point for me during the crisis has just been to see how adaptive people can be. And if you give some elements of empowerment to individuals, and you encourage people to work up solutions, just how powerful that can be. And that is something that I've been particularly heartened by in my own organization, seeing how people have applied their skills and enthusiasm to work in new ways to meet the new challenges, and I think that's something I want to build on for the future, so we continue to capture the enthusiasm, the goodwill, the creativity of our people for the long term, as well as the crisis of Coronavirus, because I think if we can do that, that means we're just going to be a stronger and more capable organization in the future. I think the other thing I've learned, Sarah, with all of this is that it often does seem difficult. And as a leader, you feel the kind of burden and responsibility to solve everything within your organization solve all these challenging problems. But of course, I've realized that you're never alone as the leader or as a manager, and there are people there to help either within your organization or outside of that. And I think that's where Acas can come in to support a whole range of businesses really, whether it's with particular questions about what the law says, whether it's a sounding board for how the company is adapting its working practices, or to talk about issues like trust working with employees, dealing with those practical challenges of home working, or something like helping support employees with mental health. We're there to help business of any shape and size. So do ask for help if we can support you in any way.

Sarah Guthrie 13:24 

Well, on that note, Susan, thank you so much for joining me today to share your advice and insight into how employees and managers can handle this really difficult time. You can find more information about Acas and the help and advice that we offer at acas.org.uk. If you have any comments or topics that you'd like us to cover next, then feel free to email [email protected]. All of those details plus more useful links will be in the session notes for this episode. Thank you for listening.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.