The Adventures of a Real Estate Investor

The Adventures of a Real Estate Investor

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The Adventures of a Real Estate Investor episodes

  • AREI 111: Important Steps for Buying Land with Brent Bowers

    Investing in real estate can be a lucrative way to build wealth and secure your financial future. One of the most popular ways to invest in real estate is by buying land. However, buying land can be more complicated than buying a house or a commercial property. 

    In this episode, we welcome Brent Bowers, as he discuss the key factors to consider when buying land for real estate investing, as well as the benefits and risks of this type of investment. Whether you are a seasoned real estate investor or just getting started, this post will provide valuable insights into the world of land investing.

    Come join us and listen in!

     As an Army Officer with over 8 years of service, Brent Bowers was spending a great deal of time away from his family, and he knew he needed to make some changes in order to be more present with his wife and children. In a short amount of time, Brent was able to expand his business, hire a team and, most importantly, spend quality time with his family while still working hard and helping others. 

     [00:00 - 12:15]
    • We welcome Brent Bowers to the show.
    • Brent Bowers background on how he started in property management.
    • Why did Brent choose investing in land?
    • How he sold his first land and the process he had to go through?
    • Asking questions can bring you greatness.
      
    [12:18 -18:40]
    • Does he buy only from Colorado or from all over?
    • His mailing strategy and how it help him get better deals?
    • How he landed a parcel of land for 1.2 million dollars with a postcard?
    •  The common thing between real estate investors and Rhinos?

    [18:44 - 30:54]
    • The concept of seller financing and how it impacts your cashflow and transactions?
    • If you were the one thinking "I don’t have the money to go out and buy these parcels of land" You NEED to hear This.
    • The first steps to take to start in Land Flipping?
    • Brent on "Done is Good Enough".
    • Asking Brent Bowers the Adventurous Four 

    Tweetable Quotes:

      "  You got to be ready for the torpedoes. That's why the Rhinos have three-inch thick skin. They're always charging and we get to do that as real estate investors, always charging. Whether it be charging the American Express or charging towards that next deal. " -  Brent Bowers

    Connect with  Brent Bowers
    https://www.linkedin.com/in/brent1/https://www.facebook.com/brentlbowers1/ https://www.instagram.com/brentlbowers/  https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCX4sxJwiz7ET7AKTXD9SA8A  https://www.tiktok.com/@brentlbowers1https://www.thelandsharks.com/

      Explore more. Adventure awaits.  Please subscribe and leave an honest review  - how do you want to create an impact in your world?  Check out Adventurous REI and our social media channels: Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn. Michael on LinkedIn Suzy on LinkedIn   Invest with us! Start here. GRAB A  FREE copy of The Complete Guide to Generating Passive Income for Avid Travelers & Adventure Seekers     

    36 min
  • AREI 110: From Renters to Home Owners: Exploring the Rise of Build to Rent Developments with Flint Jamison

    Many of us strive to reach financial freedom, but it can feel out of reach at times. Fortunately, commercial real estate offers an excellent opportunity for building long term wealth creation and financial independence. In this episode, we welcome Flint Jamison as he shares different ways one can use commercial real estate to achieve financial freedom, including both the advantages and risks associated with this type of asset class. 
     
    Flint Jamison spent 20 years in aerospace as an engineer and program manager. The most recognizable part of his career is designing the wing structure on the Boeing 787. He finished out his career managing a $120 million program modifying aircraft for the military. 

    As a former engineering leader who endured a great deal of burnout. Flint started building a new financial future for his family by purchasing cash-flowing real estate in 2018. After his first duplex, he quickly pivoted to commercial real estate, where he found the most efficient path to financial freedom. 

    Flint founded Vestus Capital to help educate other engineering leaders on how they can grow and protect their wealth by passively investing in commercial real estate.

    Fun Fact: Flint made a deal with his wife to visit all seven continents before they had kids. - mission accomplished. 

    Come join us and listen in!

    [00:00- 11:15]
    • We welcome Flint Jamison to the show.
    • Flint Jamison's background on how he started in Build to Rent Development.
    • Flint's shocking story on his first BRRRR property.
    • Dealing with the initial fear as the investor and getting over it.
      
    [11:25 -18:37]
    • From passive investor to going active and now a capital raiser.
    • How he recovered on his first failed syndication?
    • Learning doesn't necessarily have to take much time.
    • Basics of what "Build to Rent" is?

     
    [18:40 - 30:54]
    • Exit strategies and why its not viewed as a commercial property?
    • The costing on how much it takes to start a Build to Rent project.
    • How build to rent projects are getting the loan from the banks?
    • Asking Flint Jamison the Adventurous Four 


    Tweetable Quotes:
      "  The whole reason I got into this is I just wanted time freedom and that's my number one bucket list. Once I'm there, everything else flows, like travel. I can travel, teach my kids cultures around the world. It's just enables so much.. " - Flint Jamison
     
    Connect with Flint Jamison

    Website: https://vestuscapital.com/ https://investwithflint.com
    LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/flintjamison/
    Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/vestuscapital
    IG: https://www.instagram.com/vestuscapital/
     
    Explore more. Adventure awaits. 

     

    Please subscribe and leave an honest review  - how do you want to create an impact in your world?

     
    Check out Adventurous REI and our social media channels: Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn. Michael on LinkedIn Suzy on LinkedIn   Invest with us! Start here. GRAB A

    FREE copy of The Complete Guide to Generating Passive Income for Avid Travelers & Adventure Seekers     

    31 min
  • AREI 109 : The Importance of Building Strong Foundations in Real Estate investing with Charles Dobens

    Real estate investing can be an incredibly lucrative venture, but success in this field doesn't come without careful planning and execution. One of the most critical aspects of successful real estate investing is building a strong foundation. Whether you're a seasoned investor or just starting out, taking the time to establish a solid base can make all the difference in your long-term success. 

    In this episode we welcome  Charles Dobens, as we'll explore the reasons why building strong foundations in real estate investing is crucial, and provide you with practical tips to help you get started. So, if you're ready to take your real estate investments to the next level and make a bigger impact.
      
    Charles works with students in his coaching programs to train them in the correct way to acquire, operate and own multifamily property. His legal and consulting practice has one specialty - helping new investors overcome any lack of confidence in moving toward their financial objective of owning and operating apartments. 

    He is uniquely qualified to walk investors confidently through the entire process: analyzing property, negotiating contracts, organizing funding as well as transitioning to ownership.  

    Come join us and listen in!

    [00:00- 10:27 ]• We welcome Charles Dobens to the show.
    • Charles Dobens and his background on how he started in real estate investing?
    • How 2008 impacted his real estate investing?
    • Why long term debt is the way to go
    • Real estate investors buy value.
    • The beauty of termed debt, and how it changes the market? 

     [11:30-21:41]
    • Why real estate investing is the greatest business in the world?
    • The situation on the market today makes asset managers truly shine.
    • Staying with the plan and Staying with the strategy.
    • The reason Charles got into teaching multifamily real estate investing?
    • Building trust with your investors is a must. Building relationship with the bankers.
    • What the last market crash thought him? And answering your phone matters. 

     [21:42 - 43:24]
    • Is it a market crash or a market turn?
    • Does investors have to get a certain cash and cash return? 
    • Going for the markets that are slow and steady.
    • Asking Charles Dobens the Adventurous Four.
    • Bonus story with Charles Dobens!

    Tweetable Quotes:
      " Real Estate Investing is the greatest business in the world and don't think that this is a “get-rich-quick scheme.” 

    - Charles Dobens
     
    Connect with Charles Dobens
     [email protected]

    https://www.multifamilyinvestingacademy.com/
    https://www.linkedin.com/in/charlesdobens/
    https://www.multifamilyinvestingacademy.com/youtube-feed https://multifamilyos.com   

    Explore more. Adventure awaits. 

     

    Please subscribe and leave an honest review  - how do you want to create an impact in your world?

     

    Check out Adventurous REI and our social media channels: Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn. Michael on LinkedIn Suzy on LinkedIn   Invest with us! Start here. GRAB A

     

    FREE copy of The Complete Guide to Generating Passive Income for Avid Travelers & Adventure Seekers     

    44 min
  • AREI 108: Building Small to Live Large: An Interview with an ADU Builder with Whitney Hill

    Are you looking for a way to increase the value of your property, generate additional rental income, or create a private space for your family or guests? If so, an Accessory Dwelling Unit (ADU) may be just what you need! ADUs, also known as granny flats, or backyard cottages, are self-contained living spaces that are located on the same lot as a primary residence.

    Designing and building an ADU can be a complex process, but with the right knowledge and guidance, it can also be a rewarding one. In this episode, we are joined by the amazing Whitney Hill, as we explore the world of ADUs, from their benefits and types to the key considerations in designing and building them. Join us and listen in!


    Whitney is the co-founder and Head of Business Development & Innovation at Snap ADU, the leading accessory dwelling unit design build general contractor in San Diego. Previously, she spent several years as a developer of high-end homes on the east coast. Before turning to real estate, Whitney built a decade of strategic and tactical experience working as a management consultant at Bain & Company and as an operations manager for industrial supply distributor McMaster-Carr. She has a BA from Yale University and received her MBA from NYU Stern. Whitney is a mom of a 10 and 8-year-old and she's currently on a quest to visit all national parks within an 8-hour drive.

    [00:00- 08:59]
    • We welcome Whitney Hill to the show.
    • Whitney Hill's background on how she started in property management.
    • Getting more involved with the flips and learning the general contracting process.
    • What are detached new construction ADU's?
    • Different state regulations and zoning issues with properties that has ADU's. 
     
    [09:04 -17:37]
    • Stick-built vs. modular options for building ADU's.
    • How long does it take to build the systems and processes it take during that?
    • Building nationwide or focusing where they currently are?
    • What could you do with the extra land you have on your multifamily property?

     
    [17:38 -  30:01]
    • Whitney on what she's most excited for SnapADU?
    • How to get loans to start an ADU build?
    • SnapADU on dealing with the housing crisis?
    • Asking Whitney Hill about the Adventurous Four 

     

    Tweetable Quotes:

      " Sometimes having that vision is more important than even having  the five year numbers plan. " - Whitney Hill
     
    Connect with Whitney Hill

    https://snapadu.com/
    https://www.instagram.com/snap.adu/
    https://www.facebook.com/snapadu
     
    Explore more. Adventure awaits. 

    Please subscribe and leave an honest review  - how do you want to create an impact in your world?


    Check out Adventurous REI and our social media channels: Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn. Michael on LinkedIn Suzy on LinkedIn   Invest with us! Start here. GRAB A


    FREE copy of The Complete Guide to Generating Passive Income for Avid Travelers & Adventure Seekers    

    32 min
  • AREI 107: "Inside the World of Property Management: A Conversation with a Seasoned Property Manager" with Kristin Cleary

    To someone who is passionate about real estate and dedicated to providing exceptional service to clients property management might be for you. It requires a unique combination of skill, knowledge, and experience. With a keen eye for detail and a commitment to staying ahead of the curve, Property managers pride them selves on delivering results that exceed expectations and help owners and residents achieve their goals.

    In this episode we welcome Kristin Cleary, as she shares her insights, tips, and tricks for successful property management, as well as exploring some of the latest trends and developments in the industry. Whether you're a seasoned real estate professional or investor that is just starting out, this episode will surely provide you valuable insights and inspiration for navigating the world of property management with confidence and success. 

    Come join us and listen in!


    [00:00- 07:53]
    • We welcome Kristin Cleary to the show.
    • Kristin Cleary's background on how she started in property management.
    • How she transferred from mobile home parks to apartments and their differences.
    • The fine line between owners and residents, handling it as a property manager.
    • Establishing respect from the very beginning with the residents. 
      

     [08:04 -18:29]
    • The funniest and most craziest experience Kristin had as a property manager.
    • What made her decide to go for property management?
    • Finding the location of her  BURRRR properties.
    • Kristin on involving  her kids.
    • Growing her investing portfolio.

    [18:29 - 27:29]
    • Flipping a camper how and what is the difference?
    • Why educating and taking action is a must. 
    • Asking Kristin Cleary the Adventurous Four 

     

    Tweetable Quotes:

      " You can sit there forever just waiting for the right time, and it's never going to happen if you don't just jump into something.  " - Kristin Cleary
      

    Connect with Kristin Cleary
    [email protected]
    https://www.winfieldliving.com/


    Explore more. Adventure awaits. 

     

    Please subscribe and leave an honest review  - how do you want to create an impact in your world?

    Check out Adventurous REI and our social media channels: Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn. Michael on LinkedIn Suzy on LinkedIn   Invest with us! Start here. GRAB A

     

    FREE copy of The Complete Guide to Generating Passive Income for Avid Travelers & Adventure Seekers    

    30 min
  • AREI 106 : Harnessing the Power of Virtual Assistants with Anna Li

    In this episode we welcome Anna Li as she shares her story of success through making the most of every opportunity that came her way from hiring to managing virtual assistants and then living the corporate life to become a full time investor. Come join us and listen in!

    Anna Li is a successful entrepreneur who spent 17 years climbing the corporate ladder and reaching a senior leadership role, including spending four years on an assignment in Switzerland. However, two years ago, Anna made a significant change in her career by starting her own business and retiring from her corporate job. Anna's life has always been busy, juggling corporate work, running multiple businesses, and raising three children. Her ability to manage all these responsibilities effectively has led her friends and family to frequently ask her how she does it all. Anna's secret lies in outsourcing most of her "busy work" to Virtual Assistants, allowing her to free up precious time for herself. She has since turned this superpower into a business by running a global staffing company, Outsource Your Tasks. She is helping busy business operators become strategic business owners and freeing up their time with the help of professional Virtual Assistants.

    [00:00- 10:10]
    • We welcome Anna Li to the show.
    • Anna Li's  background on how she started in real estate investing.
    • How they started out with flipping then moved into wholesaling from overseas.
    • Having the combination of passive and active investing.
    • Getting help from virtual assistants and then how it progress. 
      

     [10:12 -20:18]
    • Utilizing outsourcing to try different real estate strategies.
    • When you learn from your VA's and then outgrow them, to then giving it back and let them execute.
    • Letting your VA's to shine but still guide and set the path for them.
    • "Lead them and not manage" mentality on your team.
    • Anna on the most unexpected task she tasked a VA to do for her.

      [20:20 - 33:26]
    • The most common task that Anna's clients hire VA's for?
    • Why clients are hiring VA's to achieve consistency? 
    • Her recommendations for hiring a VA?
    • Asking Anna Li the Adventurous Four 

     

    Tweetable Quotes:

      " As long as you set up the leadership for the people that work for you, they will show up every day and want to do more and want to learn more. I've learned a lot about treating my employees as part of my team, even though they're very far away from me. " - Anna Li

     

    Connect with Anna Li
    https://outsourceyourtasks.com/contact-us/
    https://www.tiktok.com/@outsourceyourtasks?lang=en  
    [email protected]
     
    Explore more. Adventure awaits. 

    Please subscribe and leave an honest review  - how do you want to create an impact in your world?

    Check out Adventurous REI and our social media channels: Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn. Michael on LinkedIn Suzy on LinkedIn   Invest with us! Start here. GRAB A

     

    FREE copy of The Complete Guide to Generating Passive Income for Avid Travelers & Adventure Seekers    

     

    36 min
  • AREI 105: Taking the Time to Build Trust as a Wholesaler with Tarah Fernandes

    In this episode, we welcome Tarah Fernandes as she tells us about how she was to build trust as a wholesaler and effectively used mail marketing for her investments. Come join us and listen in!

    Tarah specializes in finding off-market properties. She and her husband, Billy, run a seven-figure wholesale business and invest in SFR, self-storage, and land. They live in DFW with their two dogs, Winston and Henley.
     
    [00:00- 12:41]
    • We welcome Tarah Fernandes to the show.
    • Tarah Fernandes - background on how she started in real estate investing.
    • What is wholesaling, and how is it done?
    • Bad reputation with wholesalers and the impact that Tarah has brought to her buyers makes a huge difference.
     • Land that there looking for and her typical land buyer?

     [13:21 -20:18]
    • Tarah on her mailing list and how it worked so well?
    • Why some people who do mail marketing don’t get deals?
    • The reason and the process behind their company name.

    [20:20 - 33:26]
    • After getting all that active income, how do they manage it?
    • Why the end goal is passive income?
    • Asking Tarah Fernandes the Adventurous Four 

    Tweetable Quotes:
      "Being in the trenches day to day adds us as an extra resource for our buyers. " 
    - Tarah Fernandes 

    Connect with Tarah Fernandes

    https://www.instagram.com/tarah_ferns/

    https://linktr.ee/tarahferns

    https://www.selltobumblebee.com/

     
     Explore more. Adventure awaits. 

    Please subscribe and leave an honest review  - how do you want to create an impact in your world?

    Check out Adventurous REI and our social media channels: Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn. Michael on LinkedIn Suzy on LinkedIn   Invest with us! Start here. GRAB A

    FREE copy of The Complete Guide to Generating Passive Income for Avid Travelers & Adventure Seekers    

    29 min
  • AREI 104 : How To Find the Right Realtor For Your Needs with Lindsey Iskierka

    Lindsey Iskierka is an active real estate investor and the lead real estate agent for The David Greene Team SoCal; led by David Greene, Host of The Bigger Pockets Podcast. Lindsey has been investing since 2015 and owns both short term rentals and long term rentals as well as house hacked in her first triplex where she used a $0 down VA loan. Lindsey is married to her husband, Ryan who was able to resign from law enforcement thanks to real estate. They have two young children, Isabelle (5) and Grayson (3). Lindsey loves helping new and seasoned investors meet their real estate goals and sharing what she’s learned along her journey.
     |  In this episode we welcome Lindsey Iskierka as she talks about how you can find the right realtor for your real estate investing needs. Come join us and listen in!
     
     [00:01 - 09:29]• We welcome Lindsey Iskierka to the show.
     • Lindsey Iskierka  background on how she started in real estate investing.
     • How you can start your journey with free resources?
    • Avoiding fluff in this industry and get a step closer in doing things the right direction.
    • Talking about money and finances is important in a relationship.
    • How did  Lindsay and her husband achieve the goal of having him retire in 5yrs instead of 10?

    [10:18 - 15:35] • Investing in. Southern California how did they do it and how they are helping people to do it as well?
    • Why short-term rentals, mid-term rentals and house hacking are  go-to strategies for Lindsey in Southern California? 
    • Educating yourself enough to be able to pivot out of different strategies and help investors. 

    [15:42 - 30:10]
     • How to approach different realtors? Or should you be going to a realtor if your trying to buy investment properties?
    • Realtor is critical partner in your investing journey.
    • Finding the community that is aligned with your ideas and goals is important.
    • Asking Lindsey Iskierka the Adventurous Four

     Tweetable Quotes:
      " There's a lot of bumps along the way, but the successful person finds the blessing and the lesson in those bumps."  - Lindsey Iskierka

     Connect with Lindsey Iskierka
     https://www.instagram.com/lindseyiskierkarealtor https://www.facebook.com/LindseyDrumhellerrealtor https://www.davidgreene24.com/


    Explore more. Adventure awaits. 

    Please subscribe and leave an honest review  - how do you want to create an impact in your world? Check out Adventurous REI and our social media channels: Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn. Michael on LinkedIn Suzy on LinkedIn   Invest with us! Start here.

    GRAB A FREE copy of The Complete Guide to Generating Passive Income for Avid Travelers & Adventure Seekers    

    31 min
  • AREI 103: What To Think About Before Jumping Into Short Terms Rentals with Leslie Anne Morris |

    Leslie Anne Morris is a successful real estate investor who began her journey while earning her MBA and working as a commercial banker. She applies her underwriting strategy to build her real estate portfolio, which has rapidly scaled to double digits and a value of $7 million in less than three years. 

    She fell in love with Tennessee and founded two sister companies, Invest in the Smoky Mountains and Josh’s Cabins Management, to offer a one-stop shop for out-of-state investors to create passive income in short-term rentals. She is a motivational speaker, focused on empowering women to begin real estate investing, and aims to help 1,000 women become millionaires through short-term rentals. Leslie has been featured on major news networks and is a popular guest on real estate podcasts..

    In this episode we welcome Leslie Anne Morris as she shares her techniques on what to think about before jumping into short terms rentals. 

    Come join us and listen in!  


     [00:00- 07:35]

    • We welcome Leslie Anne Morris to the show. 
     • Leslie Anne Morris her background on how she started in real estate investing. 
     • Realizing that there wasn't going to be progression.
    • Telling people that they could pull some of their money out of the stock market and putting it into real estate.

    [07:41 - 15:49]
     • What strategy did she choose to go with her 401K?
     • Why did it took her 3 years to leave her W2?
     • How she used her signing bonus to buy another property?    
     • Being empowered knowing which market you buy in any type of deal will allow you to get it done.
     
     [17:32 - 31:06]
    • Knowing what you really care about.
    • Why you should not manipulate underwriting?  
    • Investing in the smoky mountains, why did she to invest there? 
    • Asking  Leslie Anne Morris the Adventurous Four


    Tweetable Quotes:

     "You have to create the plan and take the action."  - Leslie Anne Morris


    Connect with Leslie Anne Morris
    https://linktr.ee/leslieannemorris
    https://www.investinthesmokymountains.com/ 
     
    Explore more. Adventure awaits.

    Please subscribe and leave an honest review  - how do you want to create an impact in your world?

    • Check out Adventurous REI and our social media channels: Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn.
    • Michael on LinkedIn
    • Suzy on LinkedIn   
    • Invest with us! Start here. 
    • GRAB A FREE copy of The Complete Guide to Generating Passive Income for Avid Travelers & Adventure Seekers
    33 min
  • AREI 102 : Short Term Rental Secrets Patricia Baker & Lori Lusk

     Trish and Lori are two real estate investors who decided to make a change into real estate investing and make an impact on short term rentals.  Trish loves the idea of having a place for large groups of family and friends to gather together and enjoy their vacation time, while Lori is an avid traveler and loves staying in other people's homes.
    Lori is married with two young children, considers herself a huge systems and spreadsheet nerd and lives in the Pacific Northwest, where she loves anything outdoorsy. Trish married with two young boys, lives in the suburbs of Philadelphia where they wander elsewhere whenever they get the chance.  In this episode we welcome Patricia Baker & Lori Lusk as they share why they both  believe that short term rentals are the perfect way to travel where everyone can be comfortable and enjoy themselves. Come join us and listen in!
     
     [00:01 - 16:15]
    • We welcome Patricia Baker & Lori Lusk to the show.
    • Patricia Baker & Lori Lusk background on how she started in real estate investing.
    • What motivated Trish to purchase a short-term rental after for losing a job?
    • Why Lori exited on a townhouse property back then? 
    • Where are they both at their short term rental portfolios?
    • How did Trish decide to go after a certain type of property?
    • Vetting the person who represents the groups to avoid property damage?
    • Having larger properties short term rentals means lower occupancy and if the amount per night covers for low occupancy?
     
    [16:19 - 33:26]
    • How Lori decides who to partner with?
    • Co-hosting similar properties in similar areas or totally different ones?
    • Partnerships and creating the "Remote host hub handbook"
    • Asking Patricia Baker & Lori Lusk the Adventurous Four 

    Tweetable Quotes:
     "Invest in your education, invest in your systems all of those things really make a huge difference Before you start. Learn what other people have done. "  - Patricia Baker
     
    "If you just tell everyone that you know, anyone that you run into what you're doing or what you're interested in, there's so many people that you'll run into that have a similar interest. "  -Lori Lusk   

    Connect with Patricia Baker & Lori Lusk 
    https://www.instagram.com/remotehosthub                               https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100086287430468
    www.remotehosthub.com           

    📢Grab a copy of Remote Host Handbook using the code Adventure10 and get 10% off of your purchase. Available for a  limited time⏱ only! Hurry and get one today! Click here👉👉👉 https://remote-host-handbook.myshopify.com/collections/all

    Explore more. Adventure awaits.
    Please subscribe and leave an honest review  - how do you want to create an impact in your world? Check out Adventurous REI and our social media channels: Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn. Michael on LinkedIn Suzy on LinkedIn   Invest with us! Start here. GRAB A FREE copy of The Complete Guide to Generating Passive Income for Avid Travelers & Adventure Seekers    

    35 min

About The Adventures of a Real Estate Investor

From the publisher's feed

Welcome to The Adventures of a Real Estate Investor podcast. Your hosts, Suzy Sevier and Michael Barnhart, interview industry experts and chat with them about their passions and how they are…