The Arizona Equals Conversation

On today’s episode of the Arizona Equals Conversation, we talk with Dawn Shim and Hayden Nguyen, two leading members of Support Equality Arizona Schools, a student activist group based in Chandler. There’s a good chance you’ve heard about them in the news, for their protest at Chandler City Hall, the walkouts they led last Fall, or their recent demonstration at the state capitol.

Here’s a statement of their mission and vision (written by Hayden):

Our vision lies in the belief that we should all be treated equally, despite our race, gender, or sexuality. Our mission is to achieve this vision through a grassroots, student-led effort made up of people who are afflicted by discrimination and allies. By emphasizing student involvement, we hope to make our voices heard even as non-voters.

By meeting with local officials, we seek the best way to draw attention to the issues which we view as important to us. By protesting, we can show solidarity with those who have experienced discrimination and lend an audience to those who have been impacted in our community. Through our organizing, we hope to turn hate and apathy into action.

Full Episode Transcript

Jeanne Woodbury

From Equality Arizona, you're listening to the Arizona Equals Conversation, an ongoing interview series featuring the stories of queer people living in Arizona. I'm your host, Jeanne Woodbury. In this week's episode, I got to talk with Dawn and Hayden, two students from the East Valley who are leading members of a group called Support Equality Arizona Schools. Now, like I almost always do, I forgot to ask them to introduce themselves until we had our entire conversation. So to make it easier to keep track, I'm going to play a short clip right now of each of them introducing themselves.

Dawn Shim

Okay, cool. Hi, my name is Dawn. I'm 17. I use they/she pronouns and I'm with Support Equality Arizona Schools.

Hayden Nguyen

Hi, my name is Hayden. I'm also 17. I use he/him pronouns and I'm with Support Equality Arizona Schools.

Jeanne Woodbury

There's a good chance you've heard about their group in the news because they're doing really amazing work. But one of the problems for student organizers is that when you do great work, people want to turn you into a figurehead at best, and as they say later, a sock puppet at worst. So I was really excited for the opportunity to sit down with them and talk not just about the work they're doing, but how they got into the work and how they think about the work. This is one of the most fun conversations I've had, coming from my own personal experience, and just getting to listen to both of these amazing people talk. So I'm just going to roll the tape and I hope you enjoy the interview. Thanks for listening.

(beep) (typing)

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Jeanne Woodbury

Well, I really like the business cards. I think you must've given me one at the Christmas party.

Dawn Shim

Yeah, I think so.

Jeanne Woodbury

Yeah, but it's a fun design.

Hayden Nguyen

Thank you, I made them.

Dawn Shim

Yeah.

Jeanne Woodbury

Oh cool, so you do design work?

Hayden Nguyen

That's a, I would refrain from saying that just 'cause I'm solely on Canva.

Dawn Shim

Condemned to design.

Hayden Nguyen

I'm on Canva, I'm not on any real design software.

Jeanne Woodbury

Well, I mean, Canva's real design software, but I know what you mean.

Hayden Nguyen

Yeah.

Jeanne Woodbury

I like the idea of a design curse. It's like your curse to do design.

Hayden Nguyen

Yeah, that's exactly what activism is.

Dawn Shim

Like the design basement, like you're confined in a basement and you can only do design.

Jeanne Woodbury

Yeah. Yeah, online activism is just —

Hayden Nguyen

Instagram graphics.

Jeanne Woodbury

— being thrown into a basement and forced to make Canva designs.

Dawn Shim

And then sometimes it gets worse and you like, have to go into TikTok. It's like, everything just like keeps getting worse.

Jeanne Woodbury

Do you, are you on TikTok? Like, do you do Support Equals Arizona Schools stuff?

Dawn Shim

We should be. We were for a period of time.

Hayden Nguyen

We made five reels.

Jeanne Woodbury

Okay.

Hayden Nguyen

Five reels total.

Jeanne Woodbury

And did they perform well? 'Cause that's the thing I really — it feels like a lottery.

Hayden Nguyen

It is a lottery. It's okay, with the most recent one.

Dawn Shim

We posted a reel just yesterday and we got like, how much did we get?

Hayden Nguyen

We got a lot of engagement. We got about 1600 views, but like —

Dawn Shim

We did?

Hayden Nguyen

Yeah, but…

Dawn Shim

That's huge.

Hayden Nguyen

But that doesn't like translate to likes.

Dawn Shim

Oh yeah.

Jeanne Woodbury

Right.

Hayden Nguyen

It's like different.

Jeanne Woodbury

Do you feel like getting the views though connects to people at least?

Hayden Nguyen

Yeah, I think so. I think the way that the algorithm works, Reels are just like more advertised, so more people see it.

Jeanne Woodbury

Yeah.

Dawn Shim

They're trying to push it because of like TikTok’s commercial success and whatnot.

Jeanne Woodbury

Yeah, I think they definitely amplify Reels on Instagram for that reason.

Hayden Nguyen

Yeah, we always get more impression, not as much like shares, likes, all that, like as opposed to what…

Jeanne Woodbury

I found if you like have a multi-image video post and you have a mix of photos and videos, I think they amplify that more.

Dawn Shim

Oh do they?

Hayden Nguyen

I gotta write that down.

Jeanne Woodbury

But it's a whole thing. I don't know, chasing the social media algorithm…

Hayden Nguyen

It’s kind of like —

Jeanne Woodbury

…sucks.

Dawn Shim

Yeah.

Jeanne Woodbury

Like, I feel like I've been doing that in one way or another for like 10 years.

Dawn Shim

Oh my God.

Jeanne Woodbury

And it's just —

Hayden Nguyen

And I need to not be sucked into that.

Jeanne Woodbury

It's not really worth it.

Hayden Nguyen

I imagine, yeah.

Jeanne Woodbury

It's not really worth it. But I guess I kind of started doing that when I was like a student activist. And I don't know, like 2009, 2010, social media felt fun and new and exciting.

Dawn Shim

Oh yeah.

Jeanne Woodbury

And now social media is just like —

Dawn Shim

It's a curse.

Jeanne Woodbury

— You have to be there. It's the curse of the activism basement.

Hayden Nguyen

Right, the activism basement. Yeah, the walls, the project walls. And we're like, we're perpetually sitting there.

Jeanne Woodbury

Yeah.

Hayden Nguyen

That's the thing. I mean, that's like, I try to come out with a post every couple of days, but it's like, sometimes you just don't got anything to say.

Dawn Shim

Oh, and I feel so bad 'cause I'm like, very inept at Canva. Like I just cannot do it.

Hayden Nguyen

Yeah, I'm grinding it out.

Jeanne Woodbury

What do you post for? I think that's a big question I've been wondering. I think people mostly assume, and they assumed the same thing when I was a student, is that young people are tech savvy and they're making everything happen online. I don't think that was true for me and I don't know that that's true for you either.

Hayden Nguyen

I think what we post for is a few things. I feel like we post for events, stuff like that. I recently did an infographic for the first time, which was like kind of interesting. But other than that, we do just post photos of like, us at events, which I think is like, I don't know if that makes us more of like a personable…

Dawn Shim

I think older people like to see that. It's like, oh, look at the kids.

Hayden Nguyen

Look at the kids.

Dawn Shim

They're doing things. They're doing the work. And they love that. I think like the other way that that translates is like, you know, Twitter, where it's like kids are coming out with like fun, snappy responses to weird, creepy bigots.

Jeanne Woodbury

Oh right, yeah.

Dawn Shim

People love that.

Jeanne Woodbury

Like the Greta Thunberg thing with Andrew Tate.

Hayden Nguyen

That's awesome by the way.

Jeanne Woodbury

That was so fun. I've got to include a link for that in the show notes for people who have no idea the words we just said.

Dawn Shim

I think also like, it was like an Arizona thing. Like some Arizona Republican posted something and then one of the Maricopa Dems j…

We’re back from our winter break with a new episode of the Arizona Equals Conversation, featuring an interview with Bridget Sharpe, the Arizona State Director for the Human Rights Campaign. Arizona Equals is our home for the stories of queer people living in Arizona. If you’d like to share yours on a future episode of the podcast, let us know!

Full Episode Transcript

Jeanne From Equality Arizona, you're listening to the Arizona Equals Conversation. I'm Jeanne Woodbury. We're back with our first episode of 2023 featuring an interview with Bridget Sharpe, the Arizona State Director of the Human Rights Campaign. Bridget and I get to work pretty closely at the Capitol, and so it was fun to talk about how that world can feel when you spend a lot of time there, but also how it could be more accessible. Today is Wednesday, January 18th, and this afternoon there's a meeting of the Senate Education Committee where they'll be discussing and voting on a pair of anti-LGBTQ+ bills. We'll have more updates later on our social media feeds and in our newsletter. But if you're interested in following along live, you can join us at the Capitol, or you can watch a live stream on the Arizona Legislature's website. This was a great conversation, and so let's just get it started.

Bridget So hi, my name is Bridget Sharpe. I use she/her pronouns and I work for the Human Rights Campaign as the Arizona State Director.

Jeanne Very cool. We've gotten to know each other a little bit over the past year working at the Capitol, which has been fun and interesting and challenging. I think, you know, the first word I jump to is fun for some reason, which is wrong. It's really not, but for whatever reason, that's how I describe it. I get the impression that you've been working at the Capitol quite a bit longer than I have at HRC, right? or have you moved between different jobs?

Bridget Yeah, so I started with HRC in November of 2019. So that is kind of when I first started. Did some volunteer work for them before, but actually prior to that, oddly enough, I worked in Scottsdale. I was a lobbyist for a trade association.

Jeanne Oh, okay.

Bridget And the association covered small business salons and cosmetologists, barbers, nail techs, those kinds of things. So I was in charge of all 50 states, which was a lot at the time. But you just have to be strategic and pick and choose which states we wanted to work in. Were there harmful bills in certain states? Were there good bills we could support? So it was a lot of traveling, which I kind of miss, actually, because I got to go to a lot of cool places, a lot of different capitals.

Jeanne Well, did you get to go to basically every state?

Bridget I wish. But I got to visit a lot of state capitals. I spent a lot of time in Austin, Texas, which the Texas legislature is a completely different topic of conversation, but their Capitol building is really beautiful, so it was kind of nice to get to hang out there.

Jeanne It is really beautiful, actually. I just remembered I have been there. It's gorgeous.

Bridget Yeah, I love the dome. It's so pretty. You could just sit there and relax all day, but of course, things were crazy, so that never happened.

Jeanne The thing that immediately stood out to me is this idea of being based in Scottsdale and working across 50 different state legislatures, and now being based in this national organization and working in one state legislature. What's that adjustment like for you, I mean, even just from a strategy standpoint and from the relationship standpoint with lawmakers?

Bridget Yeah, I mean, I feel like I'm much more impactful in one state, because focusing all my energy into Arizona, which has been my home for a long time, And I love it here. I am loving seeing all the change that's happening in Arizona. But yeah, strategically, I have such better relationships with lawmakers because I can spend more time in person or just over email, providing trainings, those kinds of things. So the relationships are much stronger versus at my old job, it was more kind of flying in as needed. And that was tough because I am very much somebody who values folks doing the work on the ground. And so it was hard to kind of come in as this person from a national org saying

Jeanne Air drop in and say, this is what cosmetologists need.

Bridget Exactly, right. When there's already like existing, in-state trade associations. So it's a lot of trust to build, but then when you have to move on to the next state, you have to like refocus those energies and relationships completely. So I very much prefer working in one state and feeling like I know more about what's happening here and not feeling like I need to know what every single legislature is trying to do.

Jeanne It's a lot to keep up with just with one state. I feel like when I go into a meeting with anyone, but even lawmakers, if I'm going in and just asking them for something or just telling them facts, I can't tolerate that. It's like the worst feeling to just go to someone who you have no real preexisting relationship with and say, I need you to think about this this way. I don't really know who they are, I don't know what their priorities are. If I go into a meeting like that, it just sucks.

Bridget I agree, yeah.

Jeanne And I can't really imagine flying around between 50 states and I know we've got 90 people in our legislature and that's not big compared to Texas and some other states. So that's literally thousands of people that you might have to interact with.

Bridget We also did a little work in Rhode Island where there are like 400 members of the legislature.

Jeanne That's like half the population of Rhode Island.

Bridget Yeah, basically like every square mile is like a new legislator in Rhode Island. But yeah, I mean, it just-- it really speaks to this work and the importance of relationships, right? Like it speaks to-- it's much easier to pick up the phone and call a legislator's assistant when you know them and you have built that rapport. and you'll likely get in more likely to than somebody who is just kind of flying in and trying to do work. So I'm with you. -

Jeanne Yeah, that's right. I think part of that is why lobbyists get such a bad name and probably why a lot of people don't sit down and say, "I'm gonna be a lobbyist when I grow up." -

Bridget Right. (laughs)

Jeanne So how did you get into that earlier lobbying job before this?

Bridget Yeah, so I graduated college in 2008, which was, you know

Jeanne Not a great time to graduate.

Bridget Not a great time to graduate. Originally, well, I graduated with a public relations and advertising degree. And so, you know, bad time to graduate again. And I just sort of fell into working for the Arizona Democratic Party as a field organizer in East Mesa, of all places. The party had an existing organization called the GEMDEMS, the Greater Eastern Maricopa Democrats. And so there was a year-round office there. So I kind of just swooped in and made friends with the volunteers and ran the office and all that good stuff. So I was pretty much hooked after that. I mean, I loved knowing that we were making a change, making a difference, and even just talking to people in East Mesa, that is, they're usually assumed to be more conservative. It was great to meet folks who were like, it's great to see this office here and this work that you're doing because they feel at home, you know? And so that kind of really got me in. And then over the next couple of years, I worked for SEIU, which is a labor union. I worked for-- what was it? See, I'm forgetting already. Oh, Repower America, which was Al Gore's organization. Yeah, so they were trying to pass clean energy legislation with the hope of, at the time, Senator McCain supporting it.

Jeanne Was this during the Obama administration?

Bridget It was, yeah. So that was all 2009.

Jeanne Oh, OK. So from graduating to 2009, that's actually a lot of activity. -

Bridget Exactly, right.

Jeanne Yeah, I see.

Bridget And I'm sure you have experienced or heard this before, but people that work on campaigns, you work for six months and then it's off to the next thing. -

Jeanne Exactly.

Bridget Yeah, and so I really just wanted more stability and so ended up taking a job in DC, stayed there for a year, which is longer, but then ended up coming back to Arizona and then worked for Planned Parenthood for a bit and then moved to PBA, which was the job at Scottsdale.

Jeanne I see. And then that one was a longer, more stable--

Bridget Yeah, about 6 and 1/2 years, which is-- yeah. So it was nice to have stability. And the beauty industry people are so passionate about it, because it's their livelihood. It's all creative types who are just really cool and want to make a living doing--

Jeanne And mostly small businesses.

Bridget Yeah, mostly small businesses. So it was great to just meet people who are trying to support their families by running their salon or even just working in the salon. It was a good experience for me, I think, to just see this side that I haven't seen before.

Jeanne Right.

Bridget Yeah.

Jeanne Something, now that we're in this weird economic position of inflation but decent jobs numbers and people are wondering if there's a new recession coming.

Bridget Right.

Jeanne Something I hear people talk about a lot is how advertising spend is like a bellwether for recessions. It's like the first thing people cut is advertising spending. And so it seems like with the degree you had, that's probably the worst thing to graduate with right into the recession. Do you feel like you get to use the things that you studied and that you were excited about studying in college in this kind of work?

Bridget Yeah, I think that more the public relations side. I feel like in politics and in lobbying, like we mentioned, there's a lot of relationship building and making sure that people know who you are and that they can use you as a resource. That very much is part of it. But honestly, not really. Anything else? I mean, the writing portion, definitely. We wrote press releases all the time and did projects like that. And so I think that writing has really helped because with any job in a nonprofit, you wear several hats at once. And so you have to kind of pick up skills as you can. And I love writing. And so that's definitely a big part of my schooling that has just kind of stayed with me.

Jeanne That makes sense. You know, when I talk to people about their careers, and we don't always talk just about careers on the podcast, but I generally tend to think of like, I have this weird circuitous path I took. Most people I talk to don't just like pick a degree, work in that industry for the rest of their lives, but some people do. And so I'm always curious, especially for people who are maybe like younger and listening to this and going through college to really get that idea of like, what do you actually take away from college that sticks with you 10 years later, 15 years later?

Bridget Yeah. I mean, I would say, I mean, having the degree, you know, is just, I mean, it's a proud moment. It's something that, you know, you work for, you know, for four years or however long, and I just had my bachelor's. So that's, you know, a proud moment. And just the experience overall. I mean, I got to work for our radio station on campus, which was a blast. Yeah. I mean, we put together shows on campus, which is what I originally wanted to do. I thought I wanted to work at a record label and do-- or work at a music festival. That changed, obviously. But yeah, I think I take the experience. It was just a great time. Friends that I still have today and will be lifelong friends. Yeah, I just, I feel like the experience is the biggest part of it. And while you're there, experience as much as you can, but also try different things. Right? I mean, you may decide on day one, like I want to be a nurse. And then two years later you decide that's not the case. That's okay. Right. I mean, maybe a little more money, but depending. Um, so, so yeah, I think the experience was the biggest.

Jeanne It sounds like part of it is the different like connections you can get from a networking standpoint or just a community standpoint. When you made that transition out of college into the Democratic Party, was that because you were already involved in politics and you had connections or was it just a decision of the moment?

Bridget Yeah, so I was involved with the Northern Arizona University Young Dems for quite a while. My sister my oldest sister, or older sister got me involved because we went to school there at the same time. And then when you know, I was looking for a job. She was also working at the party doing research and those kinds of things and so she was like well, We have openings like what do you think? And so that's sort of how I fell into it and you know my sister and I do the same work. We were both in politics. So, you know, it was nice to have someone who was like, what do you think about this? And then that support also, you know down the line…

Jeanne And you both went to NAU?

Bridget We did, yes, yeah.

Jeanne Are you pretty close in age? Were you there at the same time?

Bridget Yeah, so she graduated a year before me. So we're 17 months apart. And so she now works for the DLCC. So that's the Democratic Legislative Campaign Committee. And she lives in New Orleans now. She just moved recently.

Jeanne Oh that's really cool

Bridget Yeah!

Jeanne I feel like that's not a very common thing for siblings to both end up working in politics —

Bridget Right, yeah.

Jeanne — or really for siblings to both end up working in the same field regardless.

Bridget Yes Yeah, it — well and in the same state too, right?

Jeanne And in the same state, yeah.

Bridget She helped, or worked for the party and did redistricting work while that was happening and taking place in Arizona. And so it was a lot of like, oh, you’re Franny’s sister or like, you’re Bridget’s sister and those kinds of things. Like people equate us all the time, so.

Jeanne Yeah. Is that like a family thing? Is that like a hereditary, you're all in politics kind of thing or just? -

Bridget I would say, so my dad who's no longer with us, he was really into politics all our lives. We grew up outside of Chicago. And so he was really involved in Chicago politics. He was actually on the radio for a long time. And so it was around news and interviewing folks. And so it was definitely a passion of his. So I would say it was kind of ingrained in us. But I think more for my sister, it was more like, this is definitely what she wanted to do. More as, with me it was like, well, I guess this works. And I found it to be a lot of fun.

Jeanne So more of just like a general family environment of interest and conversation and discussion.

Bridget Yeah, definitely.

Jeanne And then later on making the decision to make it your professional life.

BRidget Exactly, exactly. And sometimes you're like, man, I should have just stayed a volunteer or something because things are hard, right? Like things get hard during election season. Things get messy with primaries and stuff, and it can be rather exhausting. But I think it's been nice to see some of the shifts in Arizona the last couple years. And I think we can definitely shift our legislature to a more pro-equality legislature in the next two to four years. And so I think that that kind of keeps me going too. Like at the end of the day, I would love to see that happen. And I know a lot of folks in the state, in our community would love to see that happen too.

Jeanne Yeah, I think there's something like a little bit addicting about it when you can make it your whole life and you're able to find a job that pays you well enough to do that. Cause I also sometimes feel like, wouldn't it be nice to just have like a job that is outside of the fray, but I still get to be supportive in some way.

Bridget Right.

Jeanne And then I realized, I don't know that that's who I actually am.

Bridget Right. Yeah. And being honest about that, right. Like, I mean, I know for me and maybe for you too, like the fray is kind of fun.

Jeanne Right.

Bridget I mean, you know, it's exciting and it's, you know, I remember a particular time last year when you and I were sitting in a committee hearing and we were approached by a Republican legislator who had questions about his bill and actually wanted to change it. Like that was such a surprising moment.

Jeanne That was fantastic

Bridget It was so great and it was like so it shows you that like you can't necessarily say you know this legislator is this way or this legislator thinks this. You know, you have to be open to you know, other thoughts and other experiences.

Jeanne And if you're not there, you will miss those opportunities.

Bridget Exactly. Right.

Jeanne So it's really kind of like, uh, the more I push myself into this, I actually do get more results. So let me just keep trying.

Bridget Exactly. I'll keep moving forward then. Yeah. And you know, not to mention, you know, just seeing friends from other organizations at the Capitol and like running into folks, like there's a social component to it, I think, even just from the relationship building side. So that's kind of a fun part of it too. -

Jeanne Yeah, I think I've heard people describe it as, well, I can't think of the right word right now that I've heard people use, but it really becomes like a very, very small world once you're there.

Bridget Right, I agree.

Jeanne And I don't think, I don't know if that's totally fair to everyone else in the state, but it's definitely a situation where it's like, oh yeah, we all know these three reporters who are here all the time. We all know these 10 senators who are the most outspoken on things.

Bridget Right.

Jeanne And everyone kind of knows who everyone is. And it's, I don't know if it's insular, because I don't know that it's actually hard to get into it. But it's definitely a small world in a way that feels very much like a social thing.

Bridget Right, and I think sometimes it even gets smaller, when, like for our organizations, we obviously have goals that we want to achieve every year. So we know, we're almost hyper-focused on the LGBTQ issues while also playing a part in reproductive rights, in voting rights, and those kinds of things. So sometimes you miss what other organizations are doing because you're so hyper-focused on, okay, I just need to talk to these five senators and I'll be fine. So yeah, you get laser-focused on your things, And then it's like, oh, all these other crazy things are also happening at the legislature.

Jeanne Yeah. Well, and you've had the experience of having to have a much broader scope, even if it was with one trade group. Do you ever wish that that's the kind of work you got to do, is like a big picture policy role?

Bridget Yeah. You know, I think that there will be more hope for that in Arizona the next few years. Because at my old job, we never ran legislation. We just sort of reacted to it. So that was, yeah, something that I would have loved to do is be the person who's introducing the bill or with a coalition leading the bill. And that's been obviously hard for our groups the last couple of years. But already, we've seen interest from legislators who are just sort of on their own accord taking on pro-LGBTQ bills. And so I feel like our groups have a great opportunity to even if we know bills aren't gonna get committee hearings this year, we can at least educate these folks. And two years down the line, four years down the line, they have a solid understanding of why this is so important. So yeah, that's an exciting thing, I think, for sure.

Jeanne That time horizon is interesting in the context of what we talked about before, where it's like you get into a campaign job and six months later, you're off to a new thing. But then you still wanna think on these two, four year, or with something like redistricting, 10 year timelines. But you don't know actually where you're gonna be in one year. -

Bridget Exactly, right. -

Jeanne When you first got started in politics, was that the mindset you had, or was it a little bit more just, oh, this is new and exciting and I'm gonna figure it out as I go?

Bridget It was definitely new and exciting and figure it out as I go, which felt like a challenge. I mean, I feel like I've gotten to really love it and to find a niche that really works. And there's a certain kind of understanding that you pay your dues, you start from the bottom, so to speak, and then you work your way up. And so I feel like HRC, for me, has been kind of the perfect marriage of doing legislative work, which I love to do, also still working with HRC members and advocates, giving them a voice if they don't feel like they have a voice down at the legislature. And then there's also the elections piece of it where this last year we worked nine months of the year on the election, then it was like, okay, November's here. Well, December, because a lot wasn't figured out in Arizona until then. But, and then you get a little break and then it's just straight on into legislative session. And so it's a good kind of hectic, I think, where you know what to expect, and you can also do that long-term work and know, OK, so-and-so won their election. They're going to be a great ally or champion for us again this year. But there's so many new legislators this year. I haven't even, I feel like, started to get to know even all of them. And so I think it’s, yeah, there's so many factors that you plan for two years and you never know what's going to happen in two years. People get re-elected or not.

Jeanne I think I'm just still hung up on what I'm realizing now, having this conversation with you, is I'm constantly going around and having conversations that are like, oh, there's all these new legislators. And it's 90 people that we're trying to keep track of. People outside of our little bubble aren't aware that some years there aren't as many new legislators as other years. And so having that kind of conversation is like, OK, well, you started out working with the Democrats in 2008, and now you're at a point where you're having a conversation that's like, oh, here's this new person from this district, and here's this new person from this district. And I know there's a lot of people who are in that mindset, but there's also a lot of people who just don't think about politics that way at all. And I think even people who wanna get into politics aren't really necessarily aware that that's kind of how it starts to feel after a certain point. It's hard to come up with a great question for that, But I think I maybe wanna just roll the clock back a little bit.

Bridget Sure.

Jeanne You went to school in NAU, then you moved to Mesa for work. That's a big shift. Were you in Arizona before, and were you in Northern Arizona before that, or were you used to the metro area of Phoenix?

Bridget Yeah, so my family moved to Arizona in '97, I think, 1997, and so I did middle school and high school in North Phoenix. And so, yes, very familiar with it. And then, you know, just wanted to kind of get out of town and, you know, go to a smaller campus. So, you know, Flagstaff made the most sense. So yeah, but I love, I love Phoenix. It's amazing to see how it's grown, you know, even just from high school to now. And, you know, I knew I always wanted to live in like downtown or uptown Phoenix, and that's where I am right now. And it's just, you know, I feel like sometimes Phoenix gets a bad rap or, you know, people aren't excited about it, but I think it's such a vibrant community. And I think it's a great place to live.

Jeanne When you say Phoenix gets a bad rap, do you mean like Phoenix, Phoenix, or the metro area of Phoenix?

Bridget Well, I guess the metro area more. And there's tough parts about living in the metro area. You have to drive everywhere if you don't live on the light rail line, or the future light rail line, or bus lines. And so I think it gets a bad rap in that way. Phoenix is the fifth largest city, I think, in the country.

Jeanne Something like that. -

Bridget Yeah, and so, you know, it's, I just think people think, well, we should have more public transportation. I also think that that would be great. I think it's the sprawl that intimidates people a little bit. -

Jeanne Yeah, the sprawl, and I mean, you said you grew up in North Phoenix, well, not really grew up in North Phoenix, but you did middle school, high school in North Phoenix. You worked in East Mesa. That's very far apart. And North Phoenix, I think North Phoenix in the '90s versus what North Phoenix is now, for one, I think it just is farther north.

Bridget Yes.

Jeanne Have you seen that change? Like, how is that now that you're living in Phoenix again? Does it feel more sprawling or more manageable?

Bridget I would say — and actually, the first week that we moved here from Chicago, we were driving down Tatum Boulevard off the 101. I don't think the 101 was there yet. It was just a dirt road.

Jeanne Yeah, it wouldn't have been.

Bridget Right, my dad was just driving us in our van, like down this dirt road to like go see, you know, our house that was being built. And it was just like, where have you taken me? And what is happening? But now, you know, Desert Ridge is here. I used to work there in high school actually. And so, I mean, it just has grown so fast. And I think, you know, to say something good about the sprawl is people find neighborhoods that they really like and that they can live in and feel comfortable in. Yeah, there's a lot of, I think, diversity there and where specifically you wanna live, East Valley, West Valley. So I think that's provided folks with good communities.

Jeanne That's something I've seen is every now and then I'll learn about a really interesting community area in Glendale or North Phoenix or Gilbert or something that I've just never even been aware of —

Bridget Right.

Jeanne — as like, oh wow, that's a really vibrant walkable city area kind of thing. And I think part of the thing that happens with the sprawl is it's not necessarily impossible to have that, but you might not even be aware of what other communities exist —

Bridget Right, right.

Jeanne — unless you're really actively looking for it.

Bridget That's true. -

Jeanne Have you experienced that in terms of maybe trying to find community, but also maybe in terms of like organizing queer people. Cause I think it can be really hard to find like, what do I do in the East Valley if I'm queer? Or what if I'm in Glendale? What do I do? Where do I go?

Bridget That's so true. And I think my first like almost introduction into the community was just going to gay bars, to be honest, in my 20s. And hanging out with a couple of friends in particular that would frequent the bars off of 7th Avenue in Melrose. And that was my first introduction to drag queens and the drag queen community, and just how vibrant and wonderful it was. And so you end up meeting a lot of people, 'cause that's obviously downtown or uptown Phoenix. So you meet a lot of people who come in from Glendale to go to these bars or come from the West Valley to go to these bars and find community. But it is tough, I would say, outside of that, because where do you look? I mean, and also where do you look without infiltrating someone's safe space, too?

Jeanne Well, that's true, yeah. I mean, sometimes I talk to someone and I find out, oh, they just do have a really thriving and vibrant queer community in the pocket of the metro area that they live in. And no one would know. So that's the flip side of it.

Bridget Right, right. And even if, you know sometimes you'll tell people from different parts of the metro area, like, oh yeah, well Melrose is, I guess you could call it the gayborhood. You know, there's a lot of queer-owned businesses, you know, down there and they're surprised. They're like, I didn't even know that Phoenix had a gayborhood. And so, you know, everyone's learning, I think, but yeah, I mean, yeah, they're tough to find sometimes, but, but I feel like through my, you know, work with HRC, we have connected with a lot of families, either who are queer themselves or have queer children or trans children that will come from Scottsdale and they'll come from Tucson or even, you know, further south of Tucson and they just sort of find a post one day like an HRC post or an Equality Arizona post and then you get an email like what can I do about this? I think that's the most exciting part. You know, I wish that, you know, there were like five of me and five of my staffer in the in the state, Jacob, because you know you get to spend more time in those communities, you know, so yeah.

Jeanne Well so, that's something I think I wanna ask about is working with families, especially the past few years, maybe even just the past couple years. It seems like it's gotten scarier and scarier for families, even if some of the worst policies haven't actually come to pass. And for families who you work with, they're probably more likely to be really focused on that. And I think that can have a really big emotional toll. What are you seeing in terms of that? -

Bridget Yes, I completely agree with you. The emotional side of it has been both almost the most rewarding and the most scary, right? Because you connect with people on a very real level. Like you can't do this work without getting really invested in the families that you're doing the work for, right? I mean, because you know at the end of the day what you're trying to do each day is protect, help protect this person's child from harm, from getting bullied at school, from legislation that is ridiculous and unnecessary. So I think it's been both really hard, but also really rewarding, because I feel like we have — a lot of these moms, we have this kinship now where we sort of both know where we stand with each other. There's a big relationship part of that, a trust part of that, for sure, that I really value and take to heart. And I also think that I have some expertise where I can help and say, if someone wants to get involved, I can say, well, hey, let's set up a meeting with Senator so-and-so on this day, and let's start you off in that direction. But then they have the lived experience that they're open and willing to share. I mean, really, with the whole state, because if you get up and testify in front of a committee, that's going out live, and anyone can watch it.

Jeanne And it's public record. The videos are there forever.

Bridget Exactly. And so that's been a challenging part of it because you really want to make sure everybody feels comfortable. I try and stay away from us as an organization banking stories in some way because you want to make sure that if you have someone's story, you take really good care of it. And also don't just use it at your disposal.

Jeanne Can you explain what that means by banking stories?

Bridget Sure. let's say you have an advocate that really wants to get involved on a particular bill. Banking stories really means like, let's say you do a professional video shoot with them, where they talk about their story, they talk about their child, their faces on video. I mean, there's implications there. And so we try to, each year — we don't try to repurpose things, I guess, is what I'm trying to say. Because we want to make sure that families still feel comfortable. Maybe you get a great interview, and then the next year, it's going to be helpful for media. The first thing you do is go back to that family and say, would you be OK with us using this for this purpose? And so I guess it's — well, I guess it is kind of story banking, but it's making sure all along the way that everyone feels comfortable and protected.

Jeanne Well, and I would imagine, and it sounds like this is kind of what you're saying, part of the reality is that for families with kids, A year in a kid's life is actually a huge change. A year in the legislature can also be just a totally new reality. And so maybe that's a great story. Maybe they're comfortable with it being out there. But it's not genuine to the relationship you have with that family if you keep them kind of set in stone in that one moment in their life.

Bridget Exactly. And it's not fair to them either. You know, you may have, you know, a kid that, you know, one year is super happy with testifying at a committee hearing and feels comfortable to do it and wants to do it and then the next year they're like I'm burnt out and I don't want to do this anymore. That's totally fine You know, I mean, you know, they I hope at the end of the day you know while working with this families that they feel — the most important thing to me is that they feel seen and heard and protected and you know, not taking for granted this person's whole life that they're really putting out in front of a lot of people.

Jeanne I find that with a lot of parents who get involved, often the people I've worked with, they have adult children or young adult children and now they've decided to get involved. Maybe their kid came out in college or something and that's why, or maybe they just waited. Working with families who have young kids who are out and they're all involved, it's different because the kid is in a more precarious position, I think. If you're off in college and your parents decide to be advocates around your identity, you might have some feelings about it, but it's not really gonna be disruptive to your life, necessarily.

Bridget Sure, sure.

Jeanne And I think disruptive is like an unfair word, maybe. But I do imagine that working with families and feeling like everyone's voice is heard can be pretty challenging, even in a family where everyone's super on board and happy, do you have any experience navigating that balance of the kids and the parents?

Bridget Yeah, I mean, I would say, the biggest thing that I've seen, and I think a lot of times, and you've seen this in the media, we've all seen this, where it's assumed that the parent is forcing their kid into doing this. I mean, that is, if I could say anything, that's the one biggest misrepresentation out there. I mean, because along with the great relationship I have with the parents, the child becomes a part of this process as well. Because a lot of the times, it has to do with them. And so I think navigating it is always going back to those tenets of making sure they're protected and safe, but also making sure they feel heard too. I mean, I've more than once gotten testimony from a 14-year-old advocate who says, can you just look at this for me and let me know if this is OK and tweak things here and there. But their voice coming through, I think, is the most important part. And that's not even something that I feel like has to go through mom and dad, right, because that — or whoever, whoever the parent or guardian is — because that relationship also exists between me and them. And trust exists there too, so that folks know, oh, yeah, email Bridget, and she'll let you know what you should say or not say or really focus on. So I think I definitely see — I don't see it as a whole one relationship. It's very kind of separate almost.

Jeanne That makes sense. And I mean, I was involved in some activism as a teen. And so when I see people who were like the age I was, like 15-year-olds coming in to testify — one, I wasn't testifying as a 15 year old. So that's pretty impressive. But beyond that, I realized, yeah, my parents weren't part of that. And for some of those kids coming in, I think they are just going in on their own. But in some cases, it's a very different experience and it's something I try to wrap my head around, like what that must be like to include your parents in it. My parents are fortunately supportive, but also, just like, if you're a kid, it's kind of mortifying to have your parents around. Right, and that's, it's just a lot. There’s the whole thing of just, okay, you have these kids who are in this precarious position, so you're looking for support, you build this network, but maybe now it's a network that's based on parental support needs. And that's great and that's important, but then are the kids having an active voice too? Or are the kids finding the community they need?

Bridget Right, right, yeah, and I would say, I can't think of an example of any parent who hasn't allowed them to speak their piece, right? I mean, to be —

Jeanne No, I can't either.

Bridget Yeah, yeah. And so I think that that also speaks to the misconception of, oh, the parents are making their kids do this. Like, the best part of last session for me was there was a hearing in the Senate and we packed the room and just seeing everyone step back from the podium and getting a high five from a community member, a hug from a community member, seeing the whole back wall full of folks who are like, this is so important to me. I am here when I could be at work, I could be at school, and this is how important it is. And we had some tough battles last year, but that is what keeps me going, is just seeing that and knowing that we all have each other's backs. And ultimately, at the end of the day, we're doing the right thing and are on the right side of history.

Jeanne It's something community can really coalesce around. Here's the seed of this thing we're all focused on. And now here's all these relationships that form around it.

Bridget Right, right. And it's been interesting to see, so we're part of a coalition of organizations that have basically something to do with the LGBTQ community, policy focused and mostly legislative focus. But we have a group of high schoolers who have recently become a part of it. And we had a meeting right before the holidays and they spoke up so much and I was so happy. And just hearing all their ideas about things that we're used to, like Lobby Day. Like, you know, every year we're like, oh, we'll have Lobby Day, and you know, we do X, Y, and Z to do Lobby Day.

Jeanne Right, here's the checklist.

Bridget Exactly, but they, I feel like, input some really great ideas that all of us in the room, all the adults in the room were like, oh yeah, that makes total sense. And so, it's so cool to see this younger generation, you know, coming on their own accord, right? Like, I mean, their parents might have dropped them off, I don't know, but it was just them three that came to this meeting on a Saturday evening, when they could be out hanging out, doing literally anything else, and they care that much. So I'm excited to see how that relationship grows too.

Jeanne I feel like young LGBT people are, in general, just really activated around these issues, maybe for obvious reasons, but I think there's reasons for anyone to be really activated politically, and in general, people aren't. So it is really notable to see people in that demographic.

Bridget And how immediately proud they are to be who they are. -

Jeanne Yeah.

Bridget Right, whereas I think in maybe our generations or generations before us, you had to be careful, right? For safety reasons or you had to do things behind the scenes or you had your community, but it wasn't so public, you know, and so —

Jeanne What was your experience like around that?

Bridget Around like finding community or?

Jeanne Yeah, around finding community, and did it feel like there was the opportunity to do the kinds of things that these kids are doing?

Bridget Yeah, I mean, I would say, I mean, and I didn't, for me personally, didn't come out until a little bit later in life. And so I wasn't necessarily looking for that, but looking for communities in other ways, like doing young Democrat stuff. And so I think it kind of still stands in the same way, but I just think that it's just nice to see them doing this without fear and without — and bringing in these new ideas. Like, you know, we're used to, you know, sending out an action alert or, you know, to our members or, you know, sending a tweet and those things. And for a while that was like the new thing, like activating legislators on Twitter, you know? And now it's TikTok and people are getting involved that way. I mean, these kids are like communicating. They're not texting each other. They're like sending messages in Snapchat, on TikTok and all of that. And so I think it's a different world. and in some ways a safer world, 'cause you can see into, via your phone, into the worlds of other kids who feel the exact same way as you. Whereas I know my generation, it was a lot of LiveJournal and MySpace and those kinds of things, so it was harder to find your community.

Jeanne My high school experience was during the whole Arab Spring, Occupy Wall Street period. And so that was the moment for, oh, Facebook and Twitter are going to change the world for political organizing. And it lasted for like a year or like two years. And I don't even think that's really what's happening for these kids either, that it's like about social media. But on some level, they're able to see this bigger picture of how you can think about things and how you can talk about things.

‌Bridget Exactly. And be unapologetic about yourself and who you are. I just think that's so wonderful because I feel like kids, when they're supported and they have affirming homes, parents, friends, teachers, that all that happens is that you thrive, right? I mean, you find out who you are. Someone tells you it's OK to be who you are. And I think kids are finding that out earlier in their lives because they have that support from community. And so that's why it's hard to see these anti-trans bills, specifically like bathroom bills and the anti-trans sports bill, that just targets kids who want to be seen and heard and felt like they are a person and that it's okay to be who they are.

Jeanne Well, and that it's okay to be uncertain about who you are, right? That it's okay to like explore things and try things out.

Bridget Right, exactly.

Jeanne I feel like some of it just has to do with access to information. It's a lot easier to find nuanced conversations about being queer on the internet than it was 10 years ago.

Bridget That's true, that's very true.

Jeanne And 20 years ago, I don't know, it wasn't that easy to find. There were great online communities for trans people even specifically, but it was just less discoverable. And it was smaller and therefore more niche and it only represented some experiences and there'd be a lot of toxic arguments about whose experience was the one true valid experience. -

Bridget Right, yeah.

Jeanne And I think a lot of that is just always gonna exist, but there is space for people to go on TikTok and say, I actually just love the word genderqueer, and it's like a whole throwback all of a sudden.

Bridget Right.

Jeanne It's fantastic that people just have more viewpoints and more information and are able to just say, right, I don't have to fit into a mold, but here's all these different experiences I can know about.

Bridget Right, and our community is so layered, right? I mean, because I think when, you know — started talking about gay rights, marriage was the big issue and all of that. And you only sort of thought of lesbian couples or gay couples when you talk about marriage. You don't really think about the layers from there. And so I think it's been really nice to see those layers a little bit more and that you have people who find along the way that maybe they come out as gay, but then later in life are trans. Or they are actually bi.

Jeanne They find more words to express something that's truer to their experience.

Bridget Exactly, and so I just think that's so great to see. Is that it’s a journey, I mean all of us are gonna be on this journey for our whole lives. Things change all the time, people change all the time, and I think that the pillar is just staying true to yourself and having affirming people around you and taking care of those people. 'cause it would be hard to feel sad if you have all that support around you. So, yeah. -

Jeanne Yeah, that's true. Well, I think that'd be the best place to end, but I wanna ask one more question. -

Bridget Okay.

Jeanne Because you mentioned just transitioning past the marriage moment in gay politics and how so much of the conversation was around a gay couple or a lesbian couple and talking about the fact that the community is so much more diverse and has so many more experiences in it. I feel like that's the direction to go in terms of new organizing strategies, is, where are people who were left out of the conversation before? What are you seeing in terms of the shift from that era of politics to this era of politics?

Bridget Yeah, I mean, a lot more inclusion, a lot more awareness that intersectionality, if we're not doing this through an intersectional lens, like we will fail, right? I mean, we have, you know, going back to, you know, Marsha P. Johnson and, you know, going back to, you know, gay rights back then, you know, that was someone who just wanted to be seen for who she was, right? And even in that movement, a lot of folks were like, you'll have your turn. And that drives me crazy. -

Jeanne Well, she got booed off of a stage.

Bridget Exactly. And yes, exactly. Sylvia Rivera as well. And so it's just, you know, you feel cringy a little to know that that was the case. And you see it in movements all the time, the feminist movement and reproductive rights. And I think there's more of an accepting tone of we have to look through this through the lens of race, through the lens of class, community, everything, because of the layers, right? Because of the layers in our community. And so it has been really nice to have conversations, even with colleagues or with other organizations, where immediately the tone is set from the beginning that this is gonna be an intersectional conversation. And that if someone, if a group does feel left out, let's remedy this to make sure that seats are had at the table. And it can be tough sometimes when a lot of folks come together. Everyone has different priorities. We experience this all the time. And so being very careful with how we are working on things and just always coming back to, are we looking at this intersectionally? What communities are really struggling in this way and how can we bring light to that? If again, if that community is feeling comfortable with that because a lot of the shift I think is just more acceptance and more and showing these are our communities and they have lots of layers, but at the same time, like we're just trying to survive. like everybody else. And I think there's just been more public acceptance. But a part of that is more visibility into our worlds and into what it's like. Because none of these legislators who have introduced anti-drag bills have ever been to a drag show in their life, have never been to a drag story hour ever, and seen the positivity and the affirmation that happens there. And so that's the hardest part, is seeing folks who have no idea, no insight into who we are, or even attempting to, making these rules. And so I feel like it's sort of our responsibility to bring light and show that we're just like everybody else, and we just want to survive and thrive.

Jeanne And that connects perfectly to what we were talking about earlier with the fact that it's like 90 people. Like, they represent us because we voted for them but they're not actually representative 'cause they can't be, 'cause they're a tiny group of people. And all the people who work there all add up to such a tiny percentage of the population. And being able to connect with all of these other experiences and stories is so important because of course there's gonna be people who don't understand drag. And if it's one person who's in the legislature who doesn't understand drag, it feels like it's a much bigger thing. But it is just one person.

Bridget It really is.

Jeanne It is just a small group of people.

Bridget Right, a small group of people who saw one news story out of Texas, you know, where a child was at a drag show and then that is imprinted on them as something that is wrong. And they make policy decisions based off of that. I think that is, I think it's wrong. I think it's a little immoral to do things that way.

Jeanne But that context is really important.

Bridget Right, right. I mean, they may get two phone calls from constituents in their districts who saw the same piece in Texas, who said, do something about this. And if they feel inclined, they have the power to do something about it, even if two people in their district said, I think this is an issue.

Jeanne So good reason to get more voices —

Bridget Yes, exactly.

Jeanne — into the policy process.

Bridget Exactly.

Jeanne Well, thanks for talking with me today.

Bridget Of course.

Jeanne And all of the other times we talk.

Bridget Yes. Oh, my gosh. I love working with you. I'm excited for just the work we're gonna continue doing and —

Jeanne Yeah, me too.

Bridget Yeah, great.

Jeanne Some room for optimism.

Bridget Yeah, yeah. (laughing)

Today on the Arizona Equals Conversation, Jeanne interviews Lisa Malachowsky, a local entrepreneur and political organizer with a 20 year history in the computing industry. This episode covers a lot of ground, from technology history and workplace organizing to the struggle for marriage equality and the threat of rising antisemitism. We’ll be off next week enjoying the holidays, and will return with new stories in 2023.

If you have a story to share about being queer in Arizona, get in touch!

Links for Context

* Dive N Ride Adventures

* The History of IBM

* Dykes on Bikes

* Amdahl Corporation

* Gene Amdahl

* NCJW Arizona

* Arizona Prop 102

* Wolf Girls at Vassar: Lesbian and Gay Experiences

* Rising Rates of Antisemitism

Full Episode Transcript

[00:00:00]

Jeanne

From Equality, Arizona. You're listening to the Arizona Equals conversation. I'm Jeanne Woodbury. I'm the interim executive director of Equality Arizona and the host of this podcast. Today's episode is going to be our last for the year of 2022, but we'll be back next year with more stories about what it means to be queer in Arizona. Hosting this podcast has been one of the highlights of my year, and I'm excited to keep it going in 2023. But I need your help. If you have a story that you want to share or if you know someone and you think that their story needs to be heard, please get in touch. You can sign up through a form on our website, at equalityarizona.org/stories, or you can just email me. My address is [email protected]. We've got a lot of great plans for 2023, and with a new legislative session just around the corner, there's a lot of work to be done. If you're looking for a way to get involved, we have a few different volunteer teams that I'd love to invite you to join. You can find out more about those at equalityarizona.org/volunteer or in the most recent edition of our newsletter. And of course, the holidays are the traditional season forgiving so. If you want to support the work of Equality Arizona, please consider making a donation on our website, at equalityarizona.org/donate. Anything helps, and we're so grateful for all of your attention and support over the years. The conversation I got to have with Lisa Malachowsky for this episode was absolutely delightful, and I'm really glad she made the time to sit down with me. We take a lot of twist and turns, and I think it's worth just diving right into it. So let's roll the tape.

[00:02:10]

Lisa

Hi. My name is Lisa Malachowsky. My pronouns are she/her. I live in the Ahwatukee area of Phoenix, and I've lived in Arizona since 2010.

[00:02:20]

Jeanne

Cool, thanks for joining the podcast. Oh, I cut you off.

[00:02:22]

Lisa

No, it's all right. Thank you. Thank you for inviting me. I appreciate the opportunity.

[00:02:26]

Jeanne

Yeah, it's really fun. We've been doing this podcast for a little over half the year, and it's been a really cool project to see how things have developed. And the first person I spoke to is also kind of like a Chandler, Ahwatukee area person. And we talked about how if you're in Ahwatukee and then you cross over the road into Chandler and it's like, oh, this is a different world.

[00:02:47]

Lisa

It seems to be, yeah.

[00:02:48]

Jeanne

Do you have that experience?

[00:02:50]

Lisa

Sometimes, but since I've lived here from 2010, I'd say that was more the case back then. Now the vibes are totally different. Ahwatukee has changed. It's not as Republican as it used to be, and Chandler's really changed. It's not as raw, I think I would say, as it used to be in 2010. There's a lot more build up downtown. The downtown has a different vibe. I call it Little Scottsdale sometimes and I just hope it doesn't turn into Scottsdale. But, yeah, I really enjoy the restaurants and just the hanging out. I mean, my wife and I are hoping we have more time to spend there. We've just been crazy for the last year coming out of COVID, everything's been just wildly busy.

[00:03:30]

Jeanne

Yeah. Were you here in Arizona for the whole COVID situation?

[00:03:34]

Lisa

Actually, I wasn't. We were living in North Carolina outside of Raleigh at the time, and Bev my wife's job came to an end. I'm trying to think, it was probably like a year into COVID, and then we decided we were going to move back here because we kept our house here. We have a beautiful Santa Fe style house that I never wanted to give up. I always wanted it to be home base because it felt like home to me, which I haven't really felt since I was a kid.

[00:04:02]

Jeanne

So you kept those roots in Arizona, even when you were in North Carolina.

[00:04:04]

Lisa

Right. I was hedging bets. I always felt we were going to move back to Arizona because I knew I wasn't gonna like North Carolina, and I didn't. I had a lot of personal problems and I had a lot of physical problems while we were living there. So I got connected to the community that I wanted to be connected to, but without that, I probably would have really struggled.

[00:04:23]

Jeanne

What's that community like in North Carolina?

[00:04:27]

Lisa

The community that I was involved with was really the Democrats of Wake County, so much so that I became the president of the Democrats of Wake County, mostly by attrition. Everybody kept leaving to get involved in other campaigns, so I was the only one who wasn't involved in a campaign, so I said I would stay. But where I was living was this town named Apex, and Apex used to be, in 2012 it was considered by US. News and World Report the best place to live in the country. I would say it's not. It was overgrown with housing, and it didn't keep up with the services associated with what people need to live there. So there weren't enough restaurants, there weren't enough grocery stores, there weren't enough places to get your car fixed. It just felt like it was in the middle of really bad growing pains, and I felt pretty isolated. I mean, I was in an environment where most of my neighbors were heterosexual and white and — actually, no, there was one African American family. Those were the only folks we really got to be very friendly with — and everybody kind of lived in their house and kind of if you weren't in the norm, people stayed kind of away from you, and it didn't feel overt, but you could tell there was a difference. And then I found community through the Democratic Party there, and I have some really good friends there. In fact, I met this wonderful, wonderful, wonderful African American transgender woman who I wish I could talk to every day, but she doesn't stay in touch with me. She's quite busy. But, yeah, I felt some very strong ties to the people that I met there.

[00:06:04]

Jeanne

You mentioned in 2010, Chandler had like this raw feeling. Is that similar to what you're talking about with the kind of housing boom, but lack of services in North Carolina, or kind of different?

[00:06:16]

Lisa

It feels different to me. It feels like Chandler, housing-wise and services-wise, planned things better and really thought through, and I don't know if this is the case or not, but it seems like they thought through what people were going to need to live there. So we moved to Arizona in 2010. My wife was working for Intel, and in those days, Intel used to say that for every Intel job that was created, there were five or six jobs created in the community. And I think Chandler really understood that and created all the services. I mean, granted, back then, in the beginning of our time here, they were very… much more conservative I think. It felt much more conservative than it does now.

[00:06:58]

Jeanne

In Chandler?

Lisa

Yeah.

Jeanne

And Ahwatukee, definitely.

[00:07:00]

Lisa

Yeah. In fact, this is kind of the running joke I used to have. I used to say that it was easier in Arizona, at least what my experience was back in 2010, to be gay than to be a Democrat. And I basically set out to be a part of changing that. I wanted it to be equally as free and able to be whatever you wanted to be.

[00:07:20]

Jeanne

Do you think, you know, in Chandler back then… I mean, it was only recently that we got, like, nondiscrimination protections in Chandler…

Lisa

Right, right.

Jeanne

But you say it's easier to be gay than to be a Democrat maybe. Do you feel like even back in 2010, there was, like, a good gay community that you could find in that area?

[00:07:37]

Lisa

No, not in the Chandler area. And for us, living in Ahwatukee even, most of my friends lived in Phoenix. Most of my friends lived farther away from us. Really only had one other couple, two women that lived in the vicinity where we lived in Ahwatukee. And then it took a while. We found a lot of other couples. But now there's, like, in our general vicinity in Ahwatukee, we know of at least six other gay couples. It's really nice, within 200 houses, to know, 200 houses or so, to know six other couples.

[00:08:10]

Jeanne

What you were describing about… Apex, right?

[00:08:13]

Lisa

Yeah, Apex.

[00:08:13]

Jeanne

What you were describing about Apex in terms of, like, people just live in their houses and they don't come out and talk to you.

[00:08:17]

Lisa

Bedroom community.

[00:08:18]

Jeanne

I mean, I felt the same way in Chandler when I was growing up. But it sounds like you've got a situation in your neighborhood in Ahwatukee where you actually have broken out of that, and you do have neighbors you talk to.

[00:08:31]

Lisa

Yeah, for various reasons. Both my wife and I ride motorcycles, and we have two close friends that ride motorcycles near us. And then through the Democratic Party in LD 12 I've made a lot of friends, and so we've gotten a lot of friends within the Democratic community through that. So yeah, we've broken out of it. Not saying it's the best, but it's better than it was back when we first moved here.

[00:08:56]

Jeanne

Yeah, that's cool. I mean, if you're doing like, local legislative district political work, then I mean are you like, knocking doors and getting to meet your neighbors that way?

[00:09:05]

Lisa

I haven't. So for the past election, I took a different tack. They really wanted me to do that, but then I got involved with the DCCC and they saw that I was an intelligent person and I could speak well on the phone and they wanted me to do some other things. So I was doing phone banking for the DCCC and then I got engaged with the Democratic Party to actually help with the observation. So I was downtown — well I was at two different polling places, for early voting and for day of election, and then I was downtown. In fact, I'll be downtown again tomorrow watching and observing for the Democratic Party that the process of the counting and the tabulation all works the way it's supposed to.

[00:09:43]

Jeanne

Oh, yeah. Well, this year I think people didn't really know what to expect, but people were expecting potential, like harassment or intimidation.

[00:09:51]

Lisa

Yeah.

[00:09:52]

Jeanne

Was it worse than you expected or better than you expected?

[00:09:55]

Lisa

It was better than I expected. I mean, I lived in North Carolina when you saw the scenes of what was going on at downtown, on TV, on CNN, with people with crazy guns and shouting and everything outside the tabulation center, and there was none of that. There were a few people demonstrating, but the police were there in an appropriate amount of force. The sheriff's department, because it's right in the sheriff's department where the tabulation center is. And I felt completely safe. I felt protected. In fact, I wrote a letter to the editor of the AZ Republic basically saying this was the most bipartisan thing I've experienced since I've lived in Arizona because I was working side by side with registered Republicans and everybody was cordial. Everybody worked together, everybody knew we had a common goal. So all of the crap that the media talks about, I experienced the opposite.

[00:10:52]

Jeanne

I was really impressed seeing that bipartisanship and just everyone who's involved in the process on that level of, like, professionalism being really willing to work together.

[00:11:01]

Lisa

Yeah, it was. In fact, I met some people that were so nice. I mean, I wish I had… we kind of didn't share contact information or anything, but there were a couple of people that we were talking about recipes and different things. It would have been nice to follow up with them afterwards, but didn't have the time or the personal inclination I guess.

[00:11:18]

Jeanne

I want to circle back because you mentioned that with some of your neighbors, you're all motorcyclists.

[00:11:25]

Lisa

Yeah.

[00:11:25]

Jeanne And that's connected to your business, right?

[00:11:27]

Lisa

Yes.

[00:11:28]

Jeanne Can you tell me a little bit about how you got into that work?

[00:11:30]

Lisa

Sure. So I've been riding a motorcycle since I was twelve, so that's over almost 50 years, I hate to say, and I've always enjoyed it. I worked in the motorcycle industry when I lived in California. I ran a motorcycle dealership in the Bay Area. I worked at Ride Now here in Chandler, and I'm lucky in that I did that work after I came out of the computer industry. So our standard of living is pretty high, and I'm saying we're privileged in that way. So I understand that. So I was able to look at this situation and say, well, why don't I turn this into a business for myself? My wife and I are near retirement. I want to travel, she wants to travel. Both of us love going places and meeting different people of different cultures. And we both scuba dive too, so that's a part of it I'll talk about. But I have been on motorcycle trips with the general touring companies that are available. If you just Google motorcycle touring, you'll find six or seven of them. There aren't very many, but what I found was that nobody specifically caters to the LGBTQ community, and there is a huge number of people in our community who ride. And I thought, well, I want to make a safe environment for us to ride and for us to experience the world. Because I can tell you my experience has been as I go to different cultures and see different places, my eyes open wider and my, my — what do I want to say? My quality of life, my machiavellian view of life, it's very broad. And I'm exposed to different people in different cultures, and I see things that I wouldn't normally see here in Arizona, and I think that makes everyone a better person. So my goal is really to create an environment where anyone in our community and anyone who's an ally can feel comfortable coming on a trip with me, and they know they'll be safe, and that I'll take care of them and I'll stick up for them if something happens. I mean, sometimes you get an accident or anything will happen. I'll be that person who shepherds them through whatever process, and we'll have fun in the process. So I'm building this company that nobody's really done before, and like I said, it's going to be motorcycling and scuba diving. And I'm keeping my finger on the pulse of where it's safe for people in our community to go, because that's important. There are countries I wouldn't visit right now, and we'll stay away from those until the situations change, even if they're beautiful, for the reasons that we want to ride or scuba dive there. But I want to take people where it's safe and where they'll be embraced and have a good time.

[00:14:02]

Jeanne

And I think those are considerations other companies might not be making.

[00:14:04]

Lisa

They don't. And in fact, it's interesting because I'm a member of this travel consortium called the Gifted Travel Network, and they're recently getting into the idea of diversity and inclusion, and they asked me to help. They asked me to say, well, what are the basic things that our travel agents should be concerned about when they deal with LGBTQ clients? And I'm like, okay, I'll help you. And there are actually several companies who specialize in this. In fact, I can't remember the name of the one. I sat in on a webinar the other day, and I was listening to what they were saying, and it was so basic to me, but to somebody who's uninitiated in our community, it might open their eyes and say, oh, I never thought of that. It's like, oh, you might not have the bed configuration that works because they make assumptions, you know, really simple things that we don't think about but are not in the forefront of somebody who's heterosexual out there making a travel arrangement.

[00:14:57]

Jeanne

Yeah, I find that that's the case with a lot of DEI work. When you're doing it, you don't even necessarily think about, like, oh, they've never thought about this at all. And I think part of that comes down to cultural assumptions and…

Lisa

So many.

Jeanne

…microcultures and everything. Do you find that there's, like, a distinct microculture around LGBT motorcyclists?

[00:15:20]

Lisa

I don't know if I can say that yet. But I know that people like to think that there's… I mean, everybody thinks of Dykes on Bikes when they think of motorcyclists, but motorcyclists run the gamut of everybody. It's a broad spectrum of who rides. I mean, when you think about dykes on bikes, for example, you think about leather, you think about cruiser bikes. You think about the things that you see in the San Francisco Gay Parade. But I ride a European motorcycle. I don't even wear leather. The only leather I wear is boots. So it's like there are so many things that are different than what the common media will show, and we're just like other people. We do all the things the way we like to do them, and it runs a huge spectrum of possibilities.

[00:16:04]

Jeanne

So it's not monolithic at all.

[00:16:05]

Lisa

No, not at all. Not at all. But the piece of the motorcycle population that I'm looking for is people that want to travel and do motorcycling. That isn't everybody. Not everybody will want to get on their motorcycle and go to a foreign country or rent a motor— Really, what you're doing is renting a motorcycle in a foreign country and seeing that country. Not everybody who rides is going to want to do that, so… maybe they will. I mean, it would be my goal to get everybody to do that because it's such an eye opening experience, and I would want that for everybody. But there are people who just want to ride in the dirt in the desert in Arizona. Those people aren't going to necessarily want to go to France and go through the wine country and see all the hills. So, it's really a wide spectrum of people.

[00:16:52]

Jeanne

I'm curious then you mentioned like, San Fran Pride Parade, and you had a business in the Bay Area? Or…

[00:17:04]

Lisa

I ran a motorcycle dealership for someone else, for a family.

[00:17:10]

Jeanne

And were you in the Bay Area?

Lisa

San Jose.

Jeanne

Were you there for a long time before you came here?

[00:17:16]

Lisa

I lived in the Bay Area for 20 years; different places in the Bay Area. So I ran the dealership in San Jose after I got out of the computer industry. I worked in the computer industry since 1984, when I graduated college.

[00:17:31]

Jeanne

Oh, cool.

[00:17:32]

Jeanne

And did you have like, a specific kind of work? Because, I mean, I think that's a pretty exciting period in, like, computing and technology, starting in 1984.

[00:17:42]

Lisa

It was. My wife's still doing the the back end of what we used to do. In fact, I met her in the computer industry. But what I started doing was working on IBM Mainframes, which nobody knows about anymore, where I sat in a locked room with a computer that was the size of a football field and ran tests on it and then had to tell no one about what I was doing because it was super secret. But I forgot what your question exactly was.

[00:18:09]

Jeanne

How did that evolve over the time you were in the industry?

[00:18:10]

Lisa

Oh, how did that evolve? Well, the computers got smaller and smaller, and my involvement with the computer industry changed. I used to be a technician and a tester, so really an engineer. And when the people that I was working with in the Bay Area — so I worked at IBM in upstate New York, and then I moved to California — and when the people I was working with at the company I went to work at in California realized that I had half a brain and could talk, they wanted me to become a manager. So very quickly, I got out of being the most technical engineer I could possibly be to being a manager because I was good at talking to people. And I managed organizations that did engineering support. So things, I don't even know if there's a sense of this anymore, but used to be software release management, publications, testing, all that kind of stuff that supports a software engineering company or a hardware engineering group or whatever. So I did that for years and years and years.

[00:19:10]

Jeanne

I think that that moment of, like, IBM, upstate New York, that culture which goes back farther than a lot of, like, Silicon Valley stuff, making that move, did you feel like those are two different worlds?

[00:19:23]

Lisa

They were. So I was very closeted when I worked at IBM, and I wore the skirt and the suit and went to work and didn't talk about my partner that I lived with. And I hated that. I hated having two lives, and I didn't want to do it anymore. And I tried to get IBM to transfer me to California because I kept thinking, well, California is going to be more open minded and things will be different, and we'll be able to have our lives the way we want to. So I just forced the issue. IBM wouldn't transfer me. I put in for a transfer, and I guess I was so important to them, they said, no, you have to stay here in Poughkeepsie. And I said, no, I don't. And I found another job, you know, from Poughkeepsie, even back in the late 80s, when the Internet wasn't exactly what it is today, I found a job in California and I moved. So I said, you know, bye bye IBM. You don't want to do for me what I feel like I want to do for myself? Well, I'm going to find it. So I made the move, and the first thing we experienced was a little bit of discrimination, in that the company would relocate me. They paid for my relocation. But when I told them that we were selling a house in upstate New York to move, they only payed my part of the closing costs, not my partner's part of the closing costs. So I had a little bit of a challenge even in those days. And then when I started working at the first company I was working at in the Silicon Valley, I was very instrumental in getting a gay employees group started. So this would have been 1989, 1990, at a company named Amdahl, which is one of the… Gene Amdahl was one of the fathers of computing, and his company was a direct competitor of IBM, and it's now owned by Fujitsu, what's left of it, but the remnants of it still exist. But yeah, those are interesting days.

[00:21:16]

Jeanne

Did you find, like, that people were open enough when you were trying to organize that group that you could find people to join it?

[00:21:23]

Lisa

We had a small group, so Amdahl had, I think, maybe in Silicon Valley, maybe 10,000 employees. I don't remember exactly how many, but they were worldwide, so I don't know how many were in the Bay Area. We had a small group of about five of us who were working towards this, who felt strongly enough and who were not afraid to go to the CEO and say, hey, we got to do this. This is the time. And it was one of the first ERGs, so this was breaking the barriers at the time.

[00:21:54]

Jeanne

What were some of the fears people might have had?

[00:21:57]

Lisa

Well, everyone was afraid that if they spoke up and said they were gay, they were going to lose their job. There was no nondiscrimination clauses in those days. But I said screw it. This is too important. I'm tired of being in the closet. I want to be who I am, and I deserve to be who I am. So I was very strongly involved in making sure that we got that.

[00:22:20]

Jeanne

And then when you pushed through that barrier and you set that up, when you eventually… I mean, did you stay at that company, or did you find new work afterward?

[00:22:30]

Lisa

I stayed at Amdahl for seven years, but then I kept… in my mind, and actually, my college advisor told me that I would never survive at a big company. She knew me really well. She said, you don't fit in in big companies. You're not going to do it. And so I, I wasn't thinking about what she said to me, but I knew that I wanted to work at a smaller and smaller company. So I went to work at a company of 400 people after that. And then I went to a company of two people where I was employee number two. And then eventually, I gave up. I went to work for Delta dental for a while. I mean, I was all over the place. I made a bunch of moves in my 20 year career within the computing industry, and some of them were good and some of them weren't.

[00:23:11]

Jeanne

And did you find that, like, not just being out, but being like an organizer in your workplace, did that cause any problems trying to find work?

[00:23:20]

Lisa

No, not for me. I know it did for other people, but not for me.

[00:23:26]

Jeanne

I imagine that having that long of a time in California and the Bay Area — and it was such a shift from upstate New York, I imagine — then deciding, okay, we're going to pack up, we're going to move to Arizona. Did that feel like a sacrifice?

[00:23:44]

Lisa

Oh it was a huge… there was a lot of trepidation about it. So Intel did the right thing, and I will credit Intel till the cows come home. When Bev, my wife, said to them, look, we don't want to move to Arizona. We're afraid to move to Arizona. We've been not concerned for our safety and our lives and being who we want to be. How am I going to be sure that my family will be comfortable in Arizona? So what Intel did was hooked us up with another employee and her spouse at the time, and they hosted us here in Phoenix, and we spent two days with them, learning a little bit from them about what the environment was, and it made me feel a lot better about moving here. And I don't think we… the only homophobic thing we had happen to us was when we actually wanted to have a wedding here. We actually got married by — both my wife and I are Jewish, and you probably know that because we were at the event you were at yesterday

Jeanne

Yeah, we were at the NCJW…

Lisa

NCJW of Arizona.

Jeanne

Yeah.

Lisa

So we were looking for a venue. We were married by a rabbi in 2011, so we moved here in 2010, and we were married in 2011, and in 2011, we were looking for a venue to have our wedding, and I don't remember where it was, but there was a place in Mesa who would not marry us. And so, you know, we quickly said, this is, you know, that was the only experience we ever had. But every place else embraced us and said, yeah, we can do whatever you want. So there were some issues in those days even, and that was the time when everybody was working on, oh, gosh, what were the hot buttons here in Arizona? There was… I can't even remember.

[00:25:24]

Jeanne

So we had prop 102 right around that time.

[00:25:26]

Lisa

Prop 102, right. It was right after that. Yeah.

[00:25:29]

Jeanne

And so the culture I mean, there's a lot of hostility towards gay marriage at that point in Arizona. That's what I remember.

[00:25:35]

Lisa

Yeah.

[00:25:36]

Jeanne

And it wasn't state recognized at that point.

[00:25:40]

Lisa

Right, right.

[00:25:40]

Jeanne

Did that play into the experience of trying to find someone to perform the ceremony?

[00:25:45]

Lisa

No, no, what we did because… so we really had that wedding… We knew what was going on with the legal situation with marriage. Basically, we wanted that wedding in 2011 to show our families to that we were serious about our relationship and to really have a celebration before all of our parents passed away. Bev had already lost her mom earlier, but her dad was still around, and my parents were both still around and brothers and sisters of both of us and other friends, but we wanted a celebration for all of those folks more than anything. And my parents had never had one of their children married. My sister is also a lesbian, so they didn't get to celebrate for either of their children, so I wanted something for them before they passed away. And so we were able to… we had a huge wedding. Bev flew in her rabbi that she had used at another place. She lived in Minnesota at one point, and she flew in her friend Stacey, who's a rabbi, and she did the ceremony for us. We had been talking to her over Skype at the time, doing all the things you do before a wedding when you're talking to a rabbi. So Stacey came in and married us, and our parents and our friends and our family got to experience a big Jewish wedding for us in 2011. And then we went back to New York for my 30th… yeah, it would have been my 30th reunion. I went to Vassar College in Poughkeepsie, New York. We went to my reunion, and New York had passed marriage equality and they didn't have any residence requirement. So we went and got a State of New York marriage license in Poughkeepsie, New York, at my reunion, and the rabbi from Vassar married us there. So that was fun.

[00:27:32]

Jeanne

That's really cool. And it sounds like your family is really supportive, and it was exciting for them and important for them, too. Did you ever have problems with, like, familial acceptance?

[00:27:43]

Lisa

Oh for sure. So my situation you would think wouldn't be a problem. But my sister is five years older than me, and she came out before I did, and I knew my mother was going to have trouble with it, so I didn't tell her for the longest time. And my father even advised me not to tell her because it would just be devastating for her, because I remember, and I wrote about it. My coming out story's published in a book of, an anthology of coming out stories at Vassar called The Wolf Girls at Vassar. But I remember when I was 13, my mom had just found out that my sister was gay. And I remember we had an L-shaped cabinet set in the kitchen, and she denied this after I told her about it later in life. But I remember her leaning in the corner and saying to me, if I ever find out both my daughters are gay, I'll just kill myself.

[00:28:34]

Jeanne

Oh my God.

[00:28:35]

Lisa

So something like that. If your parent tells you, you don't forget that.

[00:28:38]

Jeanne No.

[00:28:39]

Lisa

So I didn't forget it. So it took me a long time to tell my mother, and in fact, my sister told her. So it was a little bit of a difficult time then, but after she… I had had two long term relationships before Bev, and so she got used to it. And then when I finally decided I was going to get married with Bev, she loved Bev. In fact, I think she loved Bev more than me.

[00:29:07]

Jeanne

That's really wonderful. I had the opposite experience where I came out before my older sister, and that was weird for me on a very different level, where I was like, gosh, I wish you had done this first so you could have cleared the way a little bit.

[00:29:21]

Lisa

Yeah, well, I was hoping that would be the case for me, but it wasn't.

[00:29:24]

Jeanne

It was almost the opposite actually.

[00:29:25]

Lisa

Yeah, it was weird. It was weird. And my sister was pretty notorious in our hometown because we grew up in a small town and everybody knew that she was gay.

[00:29:35]

Jeanne

Was this in New York? Did you grow up in New York?

[00:29:36]

Lisa

Yeah, in upstate New York. We grew up in the Catskills in a little town called Liberty, New York, which is in the heart of the what we called the Borscht Belt Catskills at that point, where all the people used to go from New York City to escape the city and hang out in the country.

[00:29:51]

Jeanne

And the Catskills, that's like actual upstate New York. I have a lot of family in western New York, like, by the Finger Lakes, and I love everything outside of the city in New York. It's so beautiful.

[00:30:00]

Lisa

It's beautiful. It's an interesting place to be from at the time because it was really a tourist area in the early 19th century for New York City. But the time when I was a kid, it had gone through its heyday and was coming down, and there wasn't a lot of industry there, so everybody said it was a good place to be from, but there weren't very many jobs there, so everybody left the area. In fact, I think I only have one friend from my high school class of 150 people who still lives there.

[00:30:29]

Jeanne

So when did you first get political? You mentioned, like, the workplace organizing. Did that precede political organizing?

[00:30:37]

Lisa Yeah.

[00:30:37]

Jeanne Or was it just part of the whole thing?

[00:30:38]

Lisa Yeah, so I got political when we moved to Arizona. So it goes along with, you know, saying that it was easier to be gay here than it was to be Democrat. And my first foray was to get involved with my legislative district locally, LD 18 at the time. And I met a bunch of really cool people, and I really liked hanging out with them and talking about democracy. My mom had always been involved in voting as a kid and used to complain about things when she didn't like the way the politics worked in the country. In fact, everybody knew in the 1968 election that she didn't vote for Nixon, that she was the only person in our hometown that voted for the Communist on the ballot. You know, we're supposed to have a secret ballot, but everybody knew that my mom voted for the Communist. I think his name was Gus Hall or something. Anyway, but I told myself that if I ever got to the point where I didn't like what was happening, I wasn't just going to complain, I was going to be part of the solution. So when we moved here and I saw how difficult it was to express my feelings about democracy, I decided that I was going to get involved. And in hindsight, I think, let's see, the very first election I got involved with was Greg Stanton running for mayor here in Phoenix. And I met him right away. I knew he was a good guy, and I just said, yeah, I'm going to knock doors and make phone calls for him. And so I started doing that stuff, and then I found out about this group called Emerge, which trained women, democratic women, to run for office. So I got involved in emerge. I took the Emerge program and graduated, I think I graduated in 2012. And then I enjoyed it so much I went on the board of Emerge.

[00:32:19]

Jeanne

Was your intention when you went through Emerge to potentially run for office or just to learn those skills?

[00:32:25]

Lisa

To learn and to support. I didn't think I wanted to run for office, and I'm still debating on whether or not I ever want to run for office, although I've made some statements lately that I might consider it now. But I went through the Emerge program. I really want to support people. I mean, you know, we had a house party for Katie Hobbs, who's also an Emerge graduate, and I just felt very strongly about making sure that she got into the governorship because we need people like her. We need more women and more people with good ideas to be able to express them and we need to get people like Andy Biggs and everybody else like him out of the way because they're preventing progress in our country, in my opinion.

[00:33:07]

Jeanne

Well, and it seems like you have a really local focus when it comes to organizing, but not necessarily like a specific level or area that you're interested in, but just the holistic picture.

[00:33:18]

Lisa

I kind of want to understand what goes on here in Arizona and be local because I think all politics is local and I think we've seen that. I saw it firsthand by how you look at the down ballot elections and how people… there's so much fall off. People vote for the top level and then if they don't know anything about the bottom level, they either go straight party based on their party affiliation or they don't vote at all. And that is a disservice to all of us because these positions — school board, water resources, county recorder, all of those kinds of positions — are so important to the day to day operations and things that we do, whether we're in a big company or we're entrepreneurs like myself, all of that affects us and our kids. So that to me is the most important thing that anybody can do in politics. And they say, actually, I can't remember who said it, but somebody said that being a PC, a precinct committee person, is really the most important thing. And I don't disagree with that statement. And I am a PC.

[00:34:23]

Jeanne

What is that like? What are the responsibilities of that? Can you explain the role of the precinct committee person?

[00:34:30]

Lisa

I don't think anybody can really explain it. It's more like networking. And for me it's getting to know a few of my neighbors and trying to maybe talk about the things that we believe and the things that we want to see happen in our neighborhoods. I think technically the precinct committee person is the lowest level and you are kind of an elected official. You have to be nominated and have ten votes in order to get the position in most precincts. But it's the person who reaches out to their neighbors and says, hey, do you know what's going on? Do you know what the issues are? Do you know who to vote for? Can I help you understand that? And of course, you either give your Democratic bent or you give your Republican bent because there's PCs on both sides. And I think this is the one position in the party that is like the backbone of each party. And so you vote on who gets to run the party in the county level and then if you're elected to the state, you get to help decide who is in the party positions at a state level. So it's really the person who kind of is behind the scenes making all the nuts and bolts fit together.

[00:35:43]

Jeanne

I'm curious. You're talking about the importance of voting down ballot, the importance of doing this like low level but really important political work. Is that something that you've just always been kind of zeroed in on because of the political tradition with your mom and everything? Or is it something you had to learn at some point?

[00:35:59]

Lisa

I learned it through Emerge. When I first got involved in just generally trying to understand what was going on in the elections, I think I worked on Obama's campaign at the low levels, making calls and stuff. When we were in North Carolina, I worked on Elizabeth Warren's campaign for the primary. So I did a lot of work at that level too, just trying to do what I could individually. But when we moved back here to Arizona in 2020, I started really focusing on making sure that everything in the state has… my voice is heard in the state and I don't want to shut up anymore. I want my voice heard. I don't want to be somebody who isn't part of the solution. And that's why I felt really strongly that Katie need to win. Katie Hobbs needed to win as governor and I felt really strongly all the down ballot positions. We had a little party at my house after the election to celebrate the election. And Mitsy Epstein, who's now our state senator, was at my house. And Patricia Contreras, who's our state representative for LD 12, they both were at my house. And also Bridget Bellavigna, I can never pronounce her name, last name, Bellavigna I think it is. She's our constable. I had some elected officials at my house and I just wanted to thank them for the work they're going to do and they have done on behalf of me and my neighbors. That's the hard work that needs to get done. And doing all of that is kind of an unthanked job. But it's really important. It's really important.

[00:37:34]

Jeanne

When I think about how the area you live in and Arizona as a whole has changed from the time you moved here to now, I think a lot of it comes down to political organizing and also the tech industry, like Intel and big companies like that bringing in different kinds of jobs. And you're kind of at the nexus of both of those things. Do you feel like there's more to the story than that?

[00:38:00]

Lisa

I think that Intel could have done a lot more than they did back in the beginnings of the first years that we were here. 2010, 2011, et cetera. I don't really know. I think the tech industry brought people here because it was a good place to live and it was cheap 10, 15 years ago and it brought a diverse set of people and so the state couldn't continue being as conservative as it was and I think it's still conservative. I mean, if you look at the numbers of who's registered in Maricopa County, it boggles my mind how the Democrats can win anyway, and I'm glad, but it boggles my mind because the Democrats are in the minority, there's more Republicans and there's more unaffiliated people in Maricopa County. So, Maricopa County really is kind of in a microcosm, although there's… what is this, the fifth largest county in the country or something\?

[00:38:52]

Jeanne

Something like that.

[00:38:53]

Lisa

Something like that. It is where politics is going, I think.

[00:38:58]

Jeanne

I mean, we're constantly in the news every time there's an election now.

[00:39:01]

Lisa

Right. But it's because things are so close, they can go either way. And then you have somebody like Kyrsten Sinema who decides to throw a monkey wrench in the whole thing and say, I'm independent now.

[00:39:10]

Jeanne

Well, I've seen in Arizona it's not just like a more blue shift. Conservatism in Arizona has also really changed within the Republican Party and between people who register as Republicans and register as Independents, and there's a lot of flux that I think…

[00:39:29]

Lisa

Yeah, well, I'm just hoping we can get some of the extremism out. And, you know, I don't necessarily believe that there needs to be extremism on either end of the political spectrum, but I do believe that that extremism is bad for democracy, especially people like Andy Biggs, who really don't want people like us to exist, right?

[00:39:47]

Jeanne

Yeah. I think it's really troubling to see people in elected office say the kinds of things and do the kinds of things that Andy Biggs has done, and honestly, there's a whole little group of them, who are like that.

[00:40:00]

Lisa

Sure, I'm just picking on him because his name comes to the top of my mind, but I hit the tick marks on a number of different levels. I'm a New Yorker by birth. I'm Jewish. I'm a lesbian. My wife and I feared for our safety here in the last year. If things didn't go the way they did, we might not be here. We might be moving to Israel.

[00:40:22]

Jeanne

And I feel like, I mean I didn't get a chance to ask you about this yet, but I really considered, okay, is it going to be safe for me as a queer person in Arizona? But in terms of actual hate crimes and hate speech, I think the biggest rise is probably directed towards Jewish people in America right now.

Lisa

I would agree.

Jeanne

Are you seeing that and are you feeling that?

[00:40:43]

Lisa

I don't see it personally, individually. I see it in the media. I feel it with people like Kanye West or whatever he calls himself now and Trump normalizing the idea of sitting down at the table with known antisemites, that scares the living bejeezus out of me. So I hope this movement goes in the opposite direction, and that we stop giving those kinds of ideas the light of day. I don't believe that hatred of a person is ever valid because they're a different religion or hatred of — hatred of any person is not valid, period. So forget about religious differences or color differences or thought differences. Hatred has to be obliterated in this world, and we're obviously a long way from that, but I need to do my part. And we basically drew our red line, my wife and I. We basically said, are we going to make a decision? Because both of us have families that perished in the Holocaust, right? Bev is directly a child of the Holocaust. Her mother was born in Berlin and her family escaped before the doors were shut and Hitler obliterated 6 million Jews. And they were lucky. In my family, some people were lost and some people came earlier. But we wondered, because we never got the chance to ask, why did they make the decisions they made? And we thought we stood on the precipice of the same thing here. Do we need to make this same decision? Luckily, we don't have any young kids, so what we decided was, no, this is our country, God damn it. We are staying, fighting, becoming revolutionaries if we need to, taking up arms if we need to, whatever is required. But I'm not leaving my country. This is my country.

[00:42:35]

Jeanne

Yeah. Well, I think that's a good place to wrap up. Thanks for doing this with me.

[00:42:41]

Lisa

Oh! You're welcome. Thank you. We went in a couple of different directions.

[00:42:45]

Jeanne

Well I love getting to talk about the tech industry, especially like, the path you have is one of the coolest ones.

[00:42:51]

Lisa

Well, maybe you should interview Bev. I mean, you should sit down with her. Her career is quite interesting to talk about if you want to focus on that.

[00:43:01]

Jeanne

I'm really grateful to Lisa for being my guest on the podcast this week. If you'd like to be a guest on a future episode of the podcast, you can sign up on our website. And if you're looking for information about any of the different things we talked about, you can find a lot of links in the show notes for this episode. If you haven't already subscribed to the podcast, just hit follow in the podcast player of your choice, whether that's Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or anything else. Personally, I like to use Overcast and we can really benefit from reviews, so if you leave a review, I'd be super grateful. Thanks so much for listening and enjoy your holidays. I'll talk to you again next year.

On this week’s episode of the Arizona Equals Conversation, Jeanne interviews her best friend Tate, a graphic designer and photographer working in Phoenix, Arizona. They talk about some of Tate’s fine art photography work, including their project The Labor of Being Transgender, and spend some time discussing the nuances and challenges of medical transition for non-binary people. Tate also shares their experience being arrested during a political protest and the way the system treated them for being a trans person.

Links for Context

* 1992 Ashes Action

* Tate Peak’s website

* WPAWS (White People Against White Supremacy)

* Mutual Aid Phoenix

* Doctor Who // Buffy the Vampire Slayer // Psych

* Lumen Prints

* Cyanotype

* Alt Process Photography

* Joshua Gutierrez

* The Labor of Being Transgender

Rough Transcript

Fully edited version to come.

00;00;00;16 - 00;00;32;26

Jeanne

From Equality Arizona. You're listening to The Arizona Equals Conversation. I'm Jeanne Woodbury. I'm the interim executive director of Equality Arizona and the host of this podcast. And today, I want to wish you all a very happy holiday season. Tonight, December 14th we’ll be hosting our holiday bash and celebrating 30 years advocating for LGBTQ+ rights in Arizona. This is my last chance to invite anyone to the party, and I'd really love to see as many of you there as possible.

00;00;33;12 - 00;01;06;21

Jeanne

For all of the specifics, you can find more information on our events calendar online equalityarizona.org/events. When this episode airs, I'll be on a plane flying home from Washington, D.C., where I was invited to attend the signing of the Respect for Marriage Act in a ceremony at the White House. It's a tremendous moment for civil rights, and it's taken a fight longer than I have been alive to get us here, going to the White House as a queer person, a place I'd only ever seen before through a fence.

00;01;07;14 - 00;01;34;09

Jeanne

I chose to keep in my mind the image of the Ashes action of 1992, the year our organization was founded. It's important to me to remember that debt that we owe to the past and the debt we owe to the community around us. I have like, so much love for the queer community, and it's difficult to imagine who or where I would be without that context.

00;01;35;07 - 00;02;11;21

Jeanne

And I think that's the perfect introduction for today's guest on the podcast, my dear friend Tate Peak. I know I've mentioned this before, but Tate and I met on the day I started hormones, and it's this magical moment of serendipity that almost fades away to meaninglessness, when you look at the whole history of our friendship. But I just can't really imagine what anything about my life would be if Tate hadn't been there for it.

00;02;11;29 - 00;02;44;26

Jeanne

Right. So you can imagine how complicated it was trying to figure out how to record a normal interview with them. And so we did, two. I talked to them and forgot to ask them questions. And then we did a second interview and I asked them more normal questions. And then I edited all that together into this. And I let us break the fourth wall a few times to show those edits.

00;02;44;26 - 00;03;18;12

Jeanne

But overall, I think it comes together pretty nicely and I don't think Tate will ever listen to it. But if they do, I hope they agree. All that being said, it's still a pretty long one. So let's roll the tape, I think.

00;03;18;18 - 00;03;41;19

Tate

What am I going to say? My name is Tate Peak. I use they/them pronouns, if that's important. I'm a graphic designer and photographer and I'm trans and I'm pretty cool. So should I redo that? [Jeanne 00:03:33:14] Yeah. [Tate 00:03:34:02] Okay. Should I say I'm pretty cool, though? [Jeanne 00:03:36:12] Yeah. [Tate 00:03:36:26] Okay, So my name is Tate Peak. I'm a trans graphic designer and photographer.

00;03;41;22 - 00;03;46;09

Tate

I use they them pronouns and I'm pretty cool.

00;03;47;02 - 00;03;48;02

Jeanne

Okay. Yeah.

00;03;48;23 - 00;03;49;06

Jeanne

Thank you.

00;03;49;12 - 00;03;51;26

Tate

Yeah.

00;03;51;26 - 00;04;09;10

Jeanne

So just actually, pretty recently, you've been able to set up a career as a freelance graphic designer and photographer. Mm hmm. Tell me a little bit about the kind of work you do. And tell me a little bit about how you got into the work that you're doing.

00;04;10;04 - 00;04;16;26

Tate

All right. So the kind of work I do right now, mostly work for Equality Arizona.

00;04;18;01 - 00;04;19;02

Jeanne

That's right. Yeah. Yeah.

00;04;19;05 - 00;04;19;21

Tate

I mean, you do.

00;04;19;21 - 00;04;22;00

Jeanne

All the photos for the show are on this.

00;04;22;01 - 00;04;35;14

Tate

For the show art on this, I take event photos. I help with lots of other things. It's a big list, and there's no point in me like listing every single thing. Right. But if anyone wants to see that work, it's in my portfolio.

00;04;35;23 - 00;04;39;12

Jeanne

Yeah. Oh, so your portfolio is you have a website.

00;04;39;13 - 00;04;53;26

Tate

I do, thisistatepeak.com. It exists. And it's also my handle on everything without the dot com. Obviously that wouldn’t -- actually it would be quite funny but Twitter doesn't allow periods.

00;04;53;26 - 00;04;57;26

Jeanne

You'd have to spell out the word dot. Yeah. And that would get confusing.

00;04;57;26 - 00;05;06;21

Tate

Yeah. And there's no point in doing that. So “thisistatepeak” or thisistatepeak.com or [email protected] for email.

00;05;07;10 - 00;05;17;25

Jeanne

We also did some comms related creative work together before Equality Arizona. Yes, with White PAWS. White People Against White Supremacy.

00;05;18;05 - 00;05;43;13

Tate

I made them a style guide that I have learned isn't as good. I've learned a lot of things since then, since doing the work I did there on and off. And then at Mutual Aid Phoenix and just generally throughout college and in high school, I started doing graphic design in high school as a small child. Around the same time I got into Doctor Who and started being a vegetarian.

00;05;43;18 - 00;06;01;01

Tate

There were a lot of things that happened all at once, and graphic design was one of them. I took a graphic design class. My teacher was, you know, at every high school there's like a weird teacher. There's like the weird guy, you know, they like - well you don't know but -

00;06;01;02 - 00;06;02;15

Jeanne

I mean, I don't know.

00;06;02;15 - 00;06;03;11

Tate

You can speculate.

00;06;03;14 - 00;06;11;04

Jeanne

But I've watched, like, movies and TV shows that include high schools. Yes. So like Giles in Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

00;06;11;24 - 00;06;21;06

Tate

Yes. So kind of like that. Except more like if if Shawn or Gus from Psych.

00;06;21;06 - 00;06;21;18

Jeanne

Like.

00;06;22;02 - 00;06;41;17

Tate

Was a teacher at a high school and pretty much everything else about them was the same, either of them. So, like Mr. Narducci was my my high school graphic design teacher and he wore - he would do something fun for his, like yearbook photo every year. So he wore like four polo shirts at the same time, all with

00;06;41;26 - 00;07;03;28

Tate

with the collars popped. Yeah. And these, like, ridiculous glasses. I think he takes his own photo and then sends it to the company that did the yearbooks and like, had them put it in. It was um - anyway, he was really fun and made graphic design class fun, though really different parts of graphic design than anything I do now, which is interesting.

00;07;03;28 - 00;07;09;28

Tate

So we made like I mean, he talked to us about movie posters and stuff, which is.

00;07;10;08 - 00;07;10;28

Jeanne

Oh yeah.

00;07;10;28 - 00;07;30;22

Tate

I don't do that level of like photo editing and retouching and stuff. It's not - it's a lot and it's not really where I am interested in design. Yeah, but then graduated high school. Didn't do any more art after that really, for a long time. And I went to ASU and.

00;07;30;22 - 00;07;30;29

Tate

I had like

00;07;31;10 - 00;07;32;22

Tate

12 majors.

00;07;32;23 - 00;07;36;21

Jeanne

Yeah. When you started at ASU, it wasn't graphic design, it wasn't photography. No, it.

00;07;36;21 - 00;07;57;18

Tate

No it was medicinal biochemistry. Yeah. And then I switched my major after that. Well, actually, that's not even true. I graduated a year early from high school, and so I was going to start college early. But then I broke my neck, and so I couldn't go to college right away. But when I first registered for ASU, I actually registered to major in industrial organizational psychology.

00;07;58;02 - 00;08;21;11

Tate

And then I switched to medicinal biochemistry before my actual orientation. And then I switched to psychology and then I switched to human systems engineering. And then I switched to graphic information technology. And then I was either going to do graphic design or photography, but graphic design would have taken longer and I was going to run out of my scholarship.

00;08;21;11 - 00;08;31;09

Tate

And so I decided to do photography instead, which I do love, but I do graphic design now, mostly because there isn't a lot of money in photography unless you're going to do like weddings, which.

00;08;31;22 - 00;08;39;29

Jeanne

That's not what you did when you were a photography major. You were doing something. Actually, when I think about like that, the biochemistry degree.

00;08;40;09 - 00;08;41;08

Tate

Yeah, the stuff that's.

00;08;41;09 - 00;08;43;24

Jeanne

Very chemistry focused photography.

00;08;43;29 - 00;08;51;20

Tate

I love film, I love alternative processes, I love putting chemicals on paper and seeing what they do.

00;08;51;24 - 00;08;58;16

Jeanne

Right. You did a lot of work that I think people wouldn't automatically think of when they think of You are an artist who takes photos.

00;08;58;16 - 00;09;28;09

Tate

Yeah, that almost no one actually thinks of when you say that to someone. Every time I tell someone I'm a photographer, they're like, Well, what kind of photography do you do? And I'm like, Uh, not the thing that you're going to say you do in about 5 minutes because you're going to say, Oh, well, you know, I'm a little into photography, and then someone's going to say something about like astro photography, and some of it's going to say something about - which are fine things, but just totally different than what I do. [Jeanne 00:09:27:25] Completely different.

00;09;28;09 - 00;09;31;10

Jeanne

And some of the stuff you do doesn't involve cameras.

00;09;31;20 - 00;10;06;09

Tate

Yeah, a lot of the stuff I didn’t, well my my one of my major projects didn’t. Yeah. And actually a few of them, I put cyanotypes on ceramics. That didn't require any cameras. Most alternative processes don't necessarily require a camera that you can use anyway. It's a lot of fun. I think that’s the kind of stuff I wish I could be doing still, but it's incredibly expensive to set up at your own home and then you have to like, market yourself in a whole different way and it's the pandemic and people are always short for cash.

00;10;06;09 - 00;10;20;06

Tate

They're not really buying art in the same way as ever. Yeah, and most people want to buy digital things. They don't actually like physical copies of things these days, you know? NFT’s. [Jeanne 00:10:19:00] Well, and.

00;10;20;06 - 00;10;24;10

Jeanne

You know, the stuff that you're making is really inherently physical.

00;10;24;23 - 00;10;26;07

Tate

Yeah, and and unique.

00;10;26;13 - 00;10;33;23

Jeanne

People could buy a print, but a lot of it is about the actual chemical reactions of, of the paper and the light and everything.

00;10;33;23 - 00;10;53;20

Tate

So yeah, and there's always a question of like, well, if I make this like one of a kind thing because most of these things are totally one of a kind that I - that I made, if I digitize it, and then I print it again because it's the only way to reproduce it, like, should I even? That's, that's a conversation I've had in my head a million times.

00;10;53;20 - 00;10;54;03

Jeanne

Oh, yeah.

00;10;54;08 - 00;11;08;28

Tate

Of like, does it ruin the specialness of this thing to digitize it and then reprint it on an inkjet printer? Yeah. Is that like sacrilegious or something to the medium?

00;11;09;06 - 00;11;27;17

Jeanne

Well, I'm thinking about the Labor of Being Transgender project that you did, and part of the actual creative process was scanning the lumen prints. That's true. And then turning those into print prints. Yeah, from a printer. Print prints from a printer? Mm hmm. Yeah.

00;11;28;02 - 00;11;29;10

Tate

That's proper terminology.

00;11;29;23 - 00;11;34;09

Jeanne

Yeah, for sure. I sat next to you in a lab sometimes, so its almost like I have a degree.

00;11;34;11 - 00;11;36;27

Tate

Yeah. Where I was making those print prints from a printer?

00;11;36;27 - 00;11;42;06

Jeanne

Yeah, Yeah, for sure. So I'm totally qualified to have a technical conversation about this.

00;11;42;06 - 00;11;42;22

Tate

Absolutely.

00;11;42;22 - 00;11;56;22

Jeanne

I think that was a really good project to bring up as an example of the kind of work that you do. Mm hmm. That's very far afield from what a lot of people would think of when they think of photography as like pointing the camera at something and taking a picture of it.

00;11;56;23 - 00;12;04;21

Tate

Yeah, they're lumen prints mostly, was that project, which is you take photographic paper. And then what I did is I put stuff on it.

00;12;05;05 - 00;12;06;18

Jeanne

And put stuff like.

00;12;06;27 - 00;12;37;22

Tate

Flowers and used injection needles from hormones and used injection vials from hormones and other sharp things and leaves and vegetables and fruit, grains, spices, eggs, my body parts, all of it. Anything you could think of. I tried to put it on top of there and it turns these like beautiful, like pink and yellow and purply colors that are just so gorgeous.

00;12;38;02 - 00;12;51;21

Tate

And it's like an inverse thing. So everything that isn't covered by an object or whatever is on top of the paper is turns those colors. And then there's like white spaces. So they look really delicate and, and special. And they were, they were a lot of fun to make.

00;12;52;15 - 00;12;55;07

Jeanne

And then you turned that into a project about.

00;12;55;27 - 00;12;57;27

Tate

The emotional labor of being transgender.

00;12;58;03 - 00;13;05;03

Jeanne

Yeah. Yeah. And I think that that's I mean, I got to write a few letters. [Tate 00:13:04:02] like ten.

00;13;05;13 - 00;13;06;09

Tate

You wrote like, ten.

00;13;06;09 - 00;13;26;27

Jeanne

I did write a lot of letters to submit to that anonymously. And you got other people to write in letters anonymously, even people you didn't know just from the Internet. And I think when it all came together it was a really, really moving project, this is something that I think you started pretty early in terms of really transitioning on some levels.

00;13;26;27 - 00;13;34;19

Tate

So yes, yeah, yeah. I pretty much started that project like the semester after I started transitioning.

00;13;34;27 - 00;13;35;13

Jeanne

Yeah.

00;13;35;22 - 00;13;47;01

Tate

Yes. Yeah. Because I didn't change my name until after that project was over. Pretty much. All right. And all of that. Yeah. So.

00;13;48;17 - 00;13;53;03

Jeanne

So I've been thinking about how to interview you. [Tate 00:013:51:02] Mm hmm. I'm aware. [Jeanne 00:13:52:06] I’m trying to have a real -

00;13;53;03 - 00;13;54;13

Tate

No, no, I'm aware. Yeah. Yeah.

00;13;55;00 - 00;14;03;12

Jeanne

I've been thinking about it, and I feel like since you just started testosterone again, you could use that as, like, an entry point.

00;14;04;28 - 00;14;07;06

Tate

It's been, like, three days.

00;14;07;20 - 00;14;11;16

Jeanne

Right? But there's a decision factor behind it. And, um.

00;14;11;28 - 00;14;26;03

Tate

I could talk about how weird gel is. Just. Rubbin’ weird gel all over my shoulders. It's strange. It smells like rubbing alcohol. So that's fun. It's a fun little. It's a little gritty.

00;14;26;29 - 00;14;27;27

Jeanne

A little gritty?

00;14;28;01 - 00;14;32;19

Tate

Yeah, I don't. I don't know why, but it is.

00;14;33;07 - 00;14;37;15

Jeanne

What was the decision behind gel? You don't like doing the injections?

00;14;37;15 - 00;14;53;22

Tate

I didn't mind the injections, but they were. It feels like. Like a build up to, like, a little thing. And then you have to, like, make sure you buy the needles and you got to, like, disinfect the vial and you got to disinfect your leg and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then I have to remember to do it one day a week.

00;14;54;11 - 00;15;00;28

Tate

And that was a lot of work. If I don't do something every day, it's harder for me to remember. And then I would just put it off well.

00;15;00;28 - 00;15;18;05

Jeanne

And there's a big cognitive load to starting the task and remembering to do the task, which I think probably. I mean. Well, do you think that the first time you were on testosterone, that that challenge of just the routine of it was part of why you stopped back then?

00;15;18;05 - 00;15;20;28

Tate

No, the biggest reason I stopped was because I was covered in acne.

00;15;21;22 - 00;15;22;13

Jeanne

Right. Okay.

00;15;22;20 - 00;15;48;21

Tate

It’s terrible. And it was painful and super uncomfortable. But I have come to the conclusion that estrogen apparently is the only thing that stops my acne, because now that I don't have hormonal birth control in my body, it's just it's just back and better than ever, apparently. So it doesn't matter anymore, well, the acne part of things. It's not like as big of a factor.

00;15;48;21 - 00;16;07;16

Tate

I'm just hoping it doesn't get really bad. But the testosterone as the gel is also nice because I just do it with my meds in the morning. So with all of the many other medications I take every day, yeah, I get to just put it as part of my routine and then I just try not to accidentally further masculinize

00;16;07;16 - 00;16;09;09

Tate

my my little boy cat.

00;16;10;18 - 00;16;14;15

Jeanne

That's going to sound really bad out of context.

00;16;15;08 - 00;16;26;07

Tate

Should I restate it as I get to do it in the morning when I take the rest of my medication? And the only thing I actually have to remember to do now is to wash my hands afterwards so I don't get testosterone on my cat.

00;16;26;07 - 00;16;28;22

Jeanne

I [laughs] it's it's important.

00;16;29;24 - 00;16;40;09

Tate

He's already like a little asshole every day. And I don't need him like, having weird hormonal fluctuations adding to the problems that would be - I can't even imagine how much worse it would be.

00;16;40;25 - 00;16;58;17

Jeanne

Well, so I was thinking about just the other day when I was taking my my hormones in the morning, along with all my other medications, I my little routine. Here's the three things I take in the morning. Here's the three things I take at night and thinking about the fact that I'm going to be doing that for the rest of my life.

00;16;58;28 - 00;17;21;16

Tate

Oh, yeah. Forever. [Jeanne 00:17:00:19] With all of them, really. I mean, there's a chance I could change some of my psych meds. There's a chance the kinds of hormones or dosage of hormones I take could change. But I legitimately have to take all of these and will have to take all of these forever. And I was thinking about how transition gets medicalized on some level.

00;17;21;29 - 00;17;47;11

Jeanne

Or being trans gets medicalized because obviously there's just medical transition, but then trans identity gets medicalized and thinking about, okay, well, I have my psych meds which make my brain function and I have my hormone medication, which I think some people might think of as something that's like treating the condition of being trans or treating gender dysphoria. I mean, like from like an insurance code standpoint

00;17;47;11 - 00;17;49;05

Jeanne

Yeah, that is what it is.

00;17;49;05 - 00;17;51;16

Tate

And that is what a lot of people view it as.

00;17;51;19 - 00;17;52;01

Jeanne

Right.

00;17;52;05 - 00;17;59;06

Tate

Especially people who are not trans. Um, more often, I know I have to have that conversation with my mom regularly.

00;17;59;15 - 00;18;10;11

Jeanne

Yeah. How how often do you have conversations with people about hormones? Like where do people come from with those questions or just that curiosity?

00;18;10;19 - 00;18;37;20

Tate

Uh, normally I would say it's just people who, like, say I start a new job or something. My coworkers, if they feel like we have gotten to a point where they can ask those questions, will just ask questions. So it doesn't happen very often now because I work from home and don't leave my house and don't interact with a lot of people outside of you.

00;18;37;28 - 00;18;43;23

Tate

But outside of that, when I was working at like The Opportunity Tree and stuff and.

00;18;43;27 - 00;18;45;10

Jeanne

What's The Opportunity Tree for context?

00;18;45;15 - 00;19;10;03

Tate

The Opportunity Tree is a local nonprofit that is dedicated to working with adults with intellectual and developmental disabilities. And so I worked there as a digital studio assistant doing graphic design stuff and teaching members with disabilities how to do graphic design. But they do a lot of other stuff, too. They have a lot of housing and day programs, and there's even a youth program as well.

00;19;10;03 - 00;19;37;28

Tate

So it's not just adults, it's yeah, scattered across the state. But when I was working there, my coworkers and those who don't know queer people already, who don't know trans people specifically, would have questions and the members had questions too. Well, a lot of them just didn't think about it. But then the people who who would actually like put thought into it and communicate verbally really well, um, they would they would ask me questions as well.

00;19;38;02 - 00;20;07;14

Tate

And it was mostly stuff like, uh, like why did you decide to transition? You know, they ask questions that like go along the lines with like the “whole wrong body narrative” that people love to perpetuate for some reason. And then I would just tell them “No, I just I didn't think I wanted to do this. And then and then someone I knew was doing it and I got jealous and decided to also do it with the encouragement of my friends.”

00;20;07;14 - 00;20;21;22

Tate

And then I figured out I actually really enjoy being the person I am now. And that was it. It’s whole thing. And those people are - half of those people that were encouraging me were - are Jeanne, for the listeners, by the way.

00;20;22;02 - 00;20;42;26

Jeanne

Right. I've got to be careful about that. I think, you know, there's the whole like social contagion idea and stuff like that and, you know, here I am, I'm like a public trans figure pushing hormones on people. But that's not the case. I mean, I think the way you talked about it is interesting because you were saying I knew someone who was getting started on testosterone.

00;20;43;12 - 00;21;02;12

Jeanne

I thought, hey, this is interesting. I had friends who said, yes, that's a perfectly normal thing to do. And then you tried it, I think with sort of a mentality of I'm going to try this not a mentality of like, oh, this is what I must do. Yeah, but just I'm going to try this. And then you found out that you liked it.

00;21;02;22 - 00;21;19;25

Jeanne

And I think that that's something that gets brushed over because, you know, on the one hand, when we have to defend our right to even get hormones, we don't want to always construe it as like, oh, it's a thing that I can do instead of the thing that I have to do or I'll die.

00;21;19;27 - 00;21;46;05

Tate

Yeah. And like, I would have been fine, probably, having not transitioned. I mean, I don't know about fine, but, you know, it would have been okay, I guess. But at the time especially and when I had tried to transition a couple of years before that and was told no because I didn't fit the narrative, I had to get all the letters and stuff and I was like, Well, that's never going to happen because I don't have the narrative that they want me to have.

00;21;46;15 - 00;22;00;04

Tate

It's just not a thing. And there wasn't any information out there on like or not a lot of information. It took a lot of searching to find anything about like gender euphoria versus gender dysphoria. Like, I don't experience a ton of gender dysphoria.

00;22;00;10 - 00;22;02;29

Jeanne

Around about when was this the first time?

00;22;03;05 - 00;22;09;21

Tate

So the first time was uhh 2016.

00;22;10;09 - 00;22;11;26

Jeanne

The first time was around 2016?

00;22;11;28 - 00;22;20;28

Tate

Around the same time I started photography a little bit before that. I think that was 20, 2015 or 2016, I don't know.

00;22;21;01 - 00;22;22;12

Jeanne

So but around that, around that time.

00;22;22;15 - 00;22;30;29

Tate

Actually yes, it was because Trump was elected that year and that was that was the year I was also looking into things. I do, yes. Okay. So 2016 and.

00;22;30;29 - 00;22;58;16

Jeanne

And that's the same for me. I remember back in around 2015 and then into 2016 was when I started looking for information about hormones and places to get on hormones. And I really did have trouble finding anything that would talk about it outside of like, well, here's the extremely medicalized and gate-kept way that you can get in. And none of these doctors are actually still providing services.

00;22;58;16 - 00;23;01;07

Jeanne

It was really difficult for me to find resources at the time.

00;23;01;12 - 00;23;23;16

Tate

Yeah, like impossible. There was just nothing out there. I remember helping friends also trying to find resources to transition. We just couldn't find anything. There is nothing out there. The closest Planned Parenthood that did HRT at the time was all the way in California. Yep. Right. And then finding any other doctor that would do informed consent was next to nonexistent.

00;23;23;27 - 00;23;26;07

Tate

And then even again, in what year was that?

00;23;26;08 - 00;23;27;06

Jeanne

2018?

00;23;27;07 - 00;23;29;24

Tate

2018. It was still pretty hard to find.

00;23;29;24 - 00;23;31;05

Jeanne

Or no, no. 2019.

00;23;31;11 - 00;23;52;00

Tate

Was it 2019? Yeah, that was the year I graduated. So yeah, yeah, yeah. It would have been 2019. So again in 2019, it was still actually kind of hard to find stuff. I had to go to to the Southwest Center and we made an appointment with a doctor and that doctor told me he wouldn't do it. And but then he was like, Well, I have a coworker.

00;23;52;00 - 00;23;55;06

Jeanne

Well, and to be clear, this doctor wasn't at the Southwest Center.

00;23;55;06 - 00;24;17;23

Tate

No, it was at Adelante Healthcare in Mesa because I my insurance didn't take the Southwest Center. And so at Adelante Healthcare. The first doctor I saw was like, No, we're not going to I can't I don't feel comfortable doing this without, like, letters and stuff. But then for some reason, he's like, you know, I have a coworker who would probably do this for you.

00;24;17;23 - 00;24;22;00

Tate

And I'm like, Why? Why would you just refer me when you.

00;24;22;12 - 00;24;44;27

Jeanne

But why can't you just do it yourselves? Yeah, there's like a weird hesitancy around doing trans care and then you end up with someone who actually is still also just figuring it out. I know that. So we see the same NP for hormones. And she works with a lot of trans clients now and I think at the time she had some other trans patients, but -

00;24;44;27 - 00;24;46;23

Tate

Yeah, a few maybe.

00;24;46;24 - 00;24;54;21

Jeanne

It's definitely something where it's not like we found someone who was an expert. An expert, right?

00;24;54;27 - 00;25;15;02

Tate

Like she absolutely was like, yes. So I have never prescribed hormones to anyone who's like, non-binary. Yeah. So we're just going to play this by ear and we're going to figure it out together. And I was like, All right, let's have fun, I guess. But she's so chill, so it actually works out perfect. And now she knows so much.

00;25;15;02 - 00;25;25;06

Tate

Like just between then and now. I saw her, you know, just a week or two ago and like her knowledge has grown an incredible amount. Right. Just from seeing trans people so often

00;25;25;06 - 00;25;42;16

Jeanne

Well, I mean, even at the very beginning, she was very clearly just deeply committed to learning. Um, but it's challenging as a non-binary person who really doesn't fit into any kind of established narrative, doesn't even come from a standpoint of extreme gender dysphoria.

00;25;42;16 - 00;25;56;26

Tate

Mhm. Or at least not the stereotypical gender dysphoria. Like I think I definitely had dysphoria absolute, but it didn't present itself in the ways that everyone talks about having dysphoria. Yeah, that was, that was an interesting thing.

00;25;56;27 - 00;26;15;28

Jeanne

Well I think it's probably good to parse out when you say like how everyone talks about dysphoria before maybe 2015, 2016, when you started to think about getting on hormones, where were you seeing people talk about hormone therapy and trans identities and dysphoria and all of those experiences.

00;26;15;28 - 00;26;17;29

Tate

In my friend circles?

00;26;17;29 - 00;26;19;15

Jeanne

So people you actually knew?

00;26;19;15 - 00;26;43;25

Tate

Yeah. So I was dating a trans woman at the time, and she had has probably or had, I don't know, really intense dysphoria that I never experienced. Like she was very fixated on like ways that her certain body, like certain parts of her body like, didn't look the way she wanted them to do. Honestly, it was also definitely body dysmorphia and dysphoria.

00;26;43;25 - 00;27;04;02

Tate

So there's is was a lot of things at the same time. But they were really intense feelings that she was having, and I didn't have anything like that and I didn't have any of the same feelings that other people I knew as well. Like I had a lot of queer friends at the time, a lot of trans friends and it was I was just didn't feel all the same ways.

00;27;04;10 - 00;27;25;06

Tate

And though I also didn't know that many transmasc people at the time and the couple of people I did know, I just actually never talked about it with because I was just like, Well, I'm obviously not trans, so clearly I don't need to ask about it. Duh.

00;27;25;17 - 00;27;43;03

Jeanne

Well, I think then that's pretty interesting. Looking ahead to when you did get started on hormones a few years later, you had someone who was having an experience that you could identify with a little bit more closely on some of those levels. And then that was a meaningful way to get over the hump.

00;27;43;14 - 00;28;02;25

Tate

Yeah, and it's not like I wasn't doing other things before hormones, like I was wearing a binder, I was doing other stuff. I had a more masculine haircut. Those were steps that I did take. Hormones were just kind of like, Is this a step that I, I feel better now than I did before, already, do I need to take hormones as well?

00;28;03;02 - 00;28;23;13

Tate

Do I want to like what is what is that going to change for me? Will that give me will that give me more satisfaction than what I already have? And it did. And so that was good. And I would like less acne. I would like to be less hairy, but otherwise great experience. Ten out of ten I would recommend it. Medical science just has to,

00;28;23;16 - 00;28;23;20

Jeanne

Well, you know.

00;28;23;20 - 00;28;25;27

Tate

you know, to like get a little further there.

00;28;26;00 - 00;28;50;15

Jeanne

I think, you know, that's a joke we like to make ten out of ten would recommend. But I think that's actually a thing that you do recommend on some level is that attitude of let me try this out and figure out if this is going to give me things I want or not. Yeah, as opposed to an all or nothing, am I trans and therefore can grant myself access to every single aspect of transition?

00;28;51;01 - 00;28;57;17

Jeanne

Or am I secretly not trans enough on some level and therefore unworthy of even cutting my hair?

00;28;57;27 - 00;29;12;09

Tate

Exactly. And knowing that like you can stop hormones. Like, I don't know if we actually said it at the beginning, like how long I haven't been on hormones, but I haven't been on hormones for about two years now. Right. Like I think it has been two years or something that.

00;29;12;09 - 00;29;13;24

Jeanne

It has, about two years. Yeah.

00;29;13;25 - 00;29;27;23

Tate

And I was fine with that for a while and I decided I wasn't fine with it anymore and I wanted to go back and here I am now. Will my voice change again? I don't know. It'd be kind of cool if it did, but I don't think that's going to happen.

00;29;28;15 - 00;29;30;28

Jeanne

I mean, it depends on how long you stay on it, but.

00;29;31;15 - 00;29;49;20

Tate

That's true, I guess. Like sometimes I watch TV shows with like old men and then if you watch something with them in it, when they were younger, you can tell that their voice has still masculinized further, like it's gotten deeper and more gravelly as they've gotten old. Yeah, and I think that's a that's a fun thing to think about.

00;29;49;20 - 00;29;51;03

Tate

Testosterone is wild.

00;29;51;03 - 00;30;16;15

Jeanne

You know, as the host of a podcast and interviewing, you know, talking about like voice change and everything like that, I think it's really fun to think about gendered voices because, you know, everyone listening to this, all they have is our voices right now. You take great photos of all the guests, but, you know, once you're listening to the podcast, you're washing dishes, you're driving your car.

00;30;17;11 - 00;30;19;18

Tate

I feel like we were both going to say something there.

00;30;20;13 - 00;30;21;00

Jeanne

Yeah.

00;30;21;09 - 00;30;33;26

Tate

But I think what you're saying is, like, people don't know necessarily what we look like, right? And so they only have our voices and they're just going to assume what they assume based on our voices. Yeah.

00;30;34;17 - 00;30;53;12

Jeanne

And those assumptions are something that both of us have to navigate in a lot of contexts, right? What are the different things people get to latch onto in the 2 seconds before they decide who we are? You know, if we're on a Zoom call and all they can see is us from the shoulders up, if we're on a podcast and all they can hear is our voice. [Tate 00:30:51:19] Or at a call center.

00;30;53;21 - 00;30;57;06

Jeanne

Yeah. And so that's an experience you had working at a call center.

00;30;57;18 - 00;31;16;23

Tate

Yes, it was. It was an adventure. It was. It was it was something not my favorite thing, but everyone thought I was a woman. Every like almost every customer that called in thought I was a woman. They all thought my name was Kate, which was fun because it sounds close enough. And so you just you just run with it.

00;31;16;23 - 00;31;24;02

Tate

That's what people do. And the interactions are so short, there's no time to correct anyone. There's no reason to correct anyone. And so you just live with it.

00;31;24;13 - 00;31;47;27

Jeanne

Well, as trans people with one syllable names I've found is some kind of a a trend. When I see my name, you know, ordering coffee, it's a one syllable name. It starts with a J. It'll become any name that someone has decided they've heard. Yeah. And I think that same thing plays out with our genders in general, right?

00;31;48;12 - 00;32;05;08

Jeanne

We're presenting a lot of information that other queer people can read and that a lot of people who are even trans just aren't going to pick up on and they fill in the blanks on some level, sometimes in really just complete non sequitur ways.

00;32;05;12 - 00;32;28;14

Tate

Yeah, it doesn't always make sense. I always want to know what people are thinking and I want to I want to I want to see the the little map they draw in their heads to, like get to the end point where they pick whatever they decide to gender one of us as I want to, I want to know what that route is because I, I cannot understand like, actually I get it with most people to some extent.

00;32;28;14 - 00;32;48;19

Tate

But then I'm like, why though? Why is that the route you picked? And it varies with each person or when people change their minds halfway through when they decided to gender you one way and then they look at you one more time and they're like, Wait a minute, I got that wrong. And it's I want to know what makes them change their mind.

00;32;48;21 - 00;32;51;11

Tate

Right? That's that's an interesting.

00;32;51;16 - 00;33;05;06

Jeanne

Also hard to know. Well, so for me, it's not just I don't want to say that this is just something that like Straight cis people are doing because I think it's kind of it well, it's just inaccurate to my experience to say that the world is divided into people who get it and people who don't get it.

00;33;05;07 - 00;33;06;13

Tate

You know, plenty of people don't get it.

00;33;06;14 - 00;33;16;07

Jeanne

Plenty of people don't get it. And that includes trans people. That includes queer people of all stripes. Mm hmm. What's your experience with that? What do you run into along those lines?

00;33;17;12 - 00;33;37;16

Tate

I mean, pretty much all the things like anything you can imagine, probably all of it. I it's hard to, like, put into words because it's really just like, well, most of the time now, everyone thinks I'm a woman. So that's that's just a thing. So I don't I don't get gendered in a variety of ways anymore. And so that's, that's part of it.

00;33;37;27 - 00;34;00;20

Tate

But mostly queer people can tell. But most of the time, so I use they them pronouns and that's, that's where it gets interesting because people never assume that to start for the most part. And so a lot of the time, if it's a queer person, they'll pick up on certain things and they'll assume he instead of they, and which I guess they're close, everyone's but everyone's close.

00;34;00;20 - 00;34;07;09

Tate

Like I'm non-binary, everyone's getting something a little bit right, but they're always getting it wrong. I don't Yeah, there's really no, no right way.

00;34;07;24 - 00;34;26;06

Jeanne

Do you feel like there's a way that people will they/them you that is also getting it a little bit wrong? Because I've waffled on this, I've said, you know, I really feel like they/them pronouns would be nice or no, only want to she/her pronouns. And sometimes it feels like if people use she, they’re gendering me wrong.

00;34;26;10 - 00;34;37;07

Jeanne

If people use they, they’re gendering me wrong. If people use he, that's not anything I ever want, right? The point is they can all feel wrong coming in certain contexts.

00;34;37;22 - 00;35;02;01

Tate

I don't get they’d very often from people I don't know and then people I do know don't have to they/them me because they just use my name or they're talking directly to me. So it's irrelevant. My pronouns don't tend to come up in a lot of conversations. And so I'm not sure if there's a situation where being called they has felt wrong.

00;35;02;09 - 00;35;16;22

Tate

I feel like maybe it would - it feels fine when I ask people to do it and they do it because it's like, Cool, you're respecting me. You're doing the thing I asked you to do. It almost never happens where someone will gender me as they without me asking?

00;35;17;14 - 00;35;18;11

Jeanne

I see. Yeah.

00;35;18;19 - 00;35;41;10

Tate

And then if they do, I don't actually notice. So I guess in that way it feels right because I can't - I don't actually pay attention. I'll only notice when they pick he or she, because I'm paying attention. I'm like watching for it. But otherwise I don't think I'd actually realize. And sometimes even when they use he or she, I wouldn't notice because I don't actually care if it's not going to be like a long term interaction.

00;35;41;10 - 00;35;47;14

Tate

It doesn't matter how someone gender is me in that moment. So I try not to think about it when I can.

00;35;47;25 - 00;35;56;00

Jeanne

It doesn't matter on what level, like what are the some of the choices that you're making when people are gendering you in terms of how you want to handle that?

00;35;57;09 - 00;36;19;06

Tate

Well, a lot of the time it's just a really short interaction. So it doesn't matter in terms of like this is ever going to affect my life again. It will never be relevant to my existence if I correct this person in this moment. And if anything it could be more dangerous for me to correct a person in a moment, especially in a public situation at the grocery store, at a job interview, right.

00;36;19;06 - 00;36;46;10

Tate

Those things can can be problematic for me. Or sometimes it's like a lot of the members at my old job would gender me incorrectly, but it would be a very long conversation to get that to stop. And then they would forget the next day and I'd have to do it again. Right. And like in those situations that also like how they gender me has - it's just words they're using.

00;36;46;10 - 00;36;54;05

Tate

They get pronouns mixed up all the time with everyone. And so it's not relevant for me to, to fix that.

00;36;54;10 - 00;37;07;15

Jeanne

And it seems like the choice you're making in those or the choices you were making in those situations or were about, for their sake, sharing things about you to help them understand, you know, not for your sake to get them to use the right pronouns.

00;37;07;16 - 00;37;28;18

Tate

Exactly. And that's how it that's how it would be with anyone. Like if I correct someone at the grocery store, it's not for me. I'm not going to talk to this person again. It would be to make it so that the next person who looks like me that goes through that person's line gets gendered correctly. So it's maybe not a traumatic experience for them because it is for a lot of people, right?

00;37;28;19 - 00;37;34;15

Tate

But for me, I don't care. I just it'd be nice. It'd be so nice.

00;37;34;26 - 00;37;40;25

Jeanne

But so you care on that level. Yeah, but on, on the level where.

00;37;41;03 - 00;37;56;19

Tate

Where I want to put in the labor to do it for myself because it's only worth it if it's someone I'm going to be talking to for a long time. Yeah. Or like someone who's an important part of my life. If it's a coworker. Yeah, they need to get it right. They work with me, especially if it's a boss.

00;37;56;23 - 00;38;11;21

Tate

They have to get it right. There's no other option there. If it's. I can't think of a lot of other people who I feel like it's really important that they get it right. My parents, they don't get it right. Right.

00;38;12;11 - 00;38;15;07

Jeanne

Have you talked with your parents about going back on testosterone?

00;38;16;00 - 00;38;19;26

Tate

I don't even think they know. I'm not on it. I can't even remember if they - I don’t tell them things.

00;38;19;26 - 00;38;24;18

Jeanne

Oh, it just hasn't been an ongoing conversation now one way or the other.

00;38;24;24 - 00;38;39;19

Tate

No. Like, I didn't even tell them that I was getting surgery when I got top surgery. Like, it wasn't until it came up, well because it was around the holidays. So I told them, but mostly to be like, I'm getting surgery and I can't see you. And we're in the middle of a pandemic. Sorry.

00;38;39;27 - 00;38;42;11

Jeanne

This was back in 2020, right?

00;38;43;01 - 00;38;45;09

Tate

Yeah, I think so. I think it would have been 2020.

00;38;45;09 - 00;38;52;09

Jeanne

I think it was the first year of the pandemic. Yeah. So still real restrictions. I couldn't go into the surgery center. No. To see you.

00;38;52;23 - 00;39;11;27

Tate

Now. No one could. I had to just sit there in the waiting room. I just got dropped off, and then I got picked up and that was it. It was fine, though. I mean, it would have been boring anyway. And no one needed to watch Turkeltaub draw on my boobs like that. That's not an experience everyone needs to see.

00;39;12;09 - 00;39;15;07

Jeanne

No, I'm going to cut that.

00;39;16;03 - 00;39;34;05

Tate

But it is what happened. Like I didn't know it was going to happen. And that was the wild part. No one told me, You think I would have figured it out because it's like a thing people like on TV shows when they do plastic surgery, they, like, draw on the face and stuff. And I didn't I didn't realize that was part of the surgery process.

00;39;35;10 - 00;40;00;18

Jeanne

So we've talked about decisions around accessing care and transitioning in different ways. And the three different times you've tried to start hormones two times successfully, and how even just between, you know, kind of two, three year gaps, how things have changed so much, the level of competency of medical professionals.

00;40;00;23 - 00;40;01;03

Tate

Mm hmm.

00;40;01;23 - 00;40;31;23

Jeanne

I think even just perceptions culturally around why people start hormones or what people might use hormones for as part of their transition. So I think I'm curious, with your experience, you didn't feel six years ago like people were writing about the kind of experience you had and that really held you back in some real ways. Yeah. Where do you see that conversation now around?

00;40;32;11 - 00;40;46;28

Jeanne

You mentioned gender euphoria, but all of the things that you had to work through to allow yourself to do the kinds of things you wanted to do. Where do you see that now in sort of the public discourse?

00;40;46;28 - 00;41;20;17

Tate

I think in like trans more trans spaces, it's way more common, like so much more common. I wasn't in a lot of like online trans spaces. Yeah. Before really. But they were hard to find in the first place. And then it was still full of a lot of that language and, and now I think things like my experience are far more common to, to read about even on like Reddit, on the trans subreddits and MTF and nonbinary and all of them.

00;41;20;17 - 00;41;27;07

Tate

There's so many there's, there's so many - trans. Trans is just a subreddit, right? I don't know. Or is transgender? I don't know.

00;41;28;07 - 00;41;28;27

Jeanne

I have no idea.

00;41;29;17 - 00;41;57;09

Tate

Yeah, but the point is those conversations are happening way more often on those platforms, in terms of the general public outside of queer space, I still think it's pretty uncommon, but it's comparable to like for a long time with as with any kind of marginalized identity and societal change, people trying to get, you know, more rights and more awareness and etc., etc..

00;41;57;09 - 00;42;19;04

Tate

Like even in the black community, a lot of things are still really focused on like this is all the trauma that black people go through. But now the conversation has shifted more and more often to be like, Hey, like, have you heard of Black Joy? And I think that's starting to happen in the trans community too. It's like it's not just like, look at all the hard things that trans people have to go through every day.

00;42;19;13 - 00;42;31;15

Tate

It's also like, look at how much fun trans people have being trans. Yeah. And how much fun gender is to play with instead of gender is sad to experience or whatever.

00;42;31;17 - 00;42;59;19

Jeanne

Yeah, I think that's actually a really big shift because a lot of the time I think that gets emphasized here is all the pain and suffering of the trans experience because that's what we have to use to justify our access to any medical care. Because for a lot of people, the way they think of trans care is, well, I don't know that I think that's a great thing, but it seems like you need it enough.

00;43;00;05 - 00;43;15;12

Jeanne

And so, okay, I guess I guess I'll tolerate it or I'll be fine with that or I'll even be very supportive of it in a really kind of pity driven way. Mhm. And that's shifted I think among allies significantly.

00;43;15;12 - 00;43;40;21

Tate

And then there's just more people that have these experiences because they are more accessible and they're able to, to write about them. So when I first, when I started hormones in 2019 I guess, Right. Mm hmm. I found like one blog and one blog and maybe like a couple of Reddit posts that were like, what about what if I, like, didn't do like, all the testosterone?

00;43;40;21 - 00;44;03;14

Tate

What if I did like a little bit of testosterone and I just kind of like kind of space it out over time, what if i I did low dose T? Yeah, and there were, there just was really minimal information on it and there wasn't a lot of conversation about like, well, what if I don't want to be a man and I don't want to do all of these like, man things that people think trans men are supposed to do.

00;44;03;20 - 00;44;27;20

Tate

And I want to, like, do something a little different than that. I don't it's different for everyone, but like, right, right. There was those conversations weren’t happening and now they're everywhere. Yeah, there's like a whole subreddits dedicated to it. There's like medium articles, there's yeah, Tumblr blogs, it's everywhere, all of it.

00;44;28;17 - 00;44;45;12

Jeanne

I sometimes think about the work trans people do, like creative work. I mean, or sometimes professional work early in transition compared to what Then we do even like two years.

00;44;45;26 - 00;44;47;03

Tate

Yeah, it's super different.

00;44;47;04 - 00;44;53;05

Jeanne

It's really different. Tell me about that. Like, talk to me about that. I think I don't want to speak for you.

00;44;53;08 - 00;45;23;10

Tate

Well it's it's a hard conver - because I don't I don't make stuff in the same way now that's true. Yeah I it's not that different because I'm not - it's super different cause I'm not doing it. And I don't think I think even if I was still making that kind of work, like working within fine art photography and an alternative processes and stuff, I think I would still make stuff around transness as a concept, but it would be a really different thing.

00;45;23;22 - 00;45;36;26

Tate

It would be focused on completely different parts of the trans experience that people don't talk about or neurodiversity is a thing I think I would I would probably make something about if I could figure out how to do that.

00;45;37;00 - 00;46;04;22

Jeanne

I was talking with guest on the podcast, Vanessa. She mentioned her own neurodiversity and then afterwards off mic, we were talking about how this is something the two of us, Vanessa and I talk about all the time with people is this overlap of people who are disabled and queer neurodiverse that is somehow completely unrecognized, like a broader cultural level.

00;46;04;22 - 00;46;11;11

Jeanne

It's not a real conversation that's happening except among the people who are in it, right? And then we talk about it all the time.

00;46;11;12 - 00;46;12;26

Tate

Oh, constantly, Constantly.

00;46;13;15 - 00;46;23;26

Jeanne

So if you were to make art about aspects of the trans experience that don't get talked about or neurodiversity, what are those things that aren't getting talked about?

00;46;25;00 - 00;46;51;11

Tate

Hmm, That is a large question. It's very broad in terms of there's just so many parts of like so much stuff that is the mainstream conversation with almost every with both things at this point is like, well, it's so hard to be one of those things isn’t it so hard? And I got to I just I can't even imagine what it would be like to live your life.

00;46;51;11 - 00;46;58;08

Tate

It must be so difficult. Like that's the conversation right now that’s happening in the world, right? Still. [Jeanne 00:46:57:13] One of the first.

00;46;58;08 - 00;47;17;09

Jeanne

People I talked to about being trans had this attitude of like, well, not an attitude, just a really explicitly stated thing of like, I could never understand what you're experiencing. Thank you for sharing with me. And I was like, I just want to actually talk to you about this.

00;47;17;18 - 00;47;45;23

Tate

Yeah, people love to call trans people brave. Yes, like the big thing. And even like at my show, like one of my my senior art show where, like, half the people that came up to me to talk about my trans project were like, Oh my God, I had no idea. This is incredible. Like, did you write all of like, they thought I wrote all of them, which is just there were like 50 something letters and they're.

00;47;45;23 - 00;47;49;07

Jeanne

Very disparate experiences. They couldn't all be from one person.

00;47;49;07 - 00;48;11;02

Tate

No, though. I mean, some people there was one in Spanish and people were like, did you did you do you speak Spanish? No, I don't. But I appreciate that you think I might. But no, these are all community submitted. And yeah, it but they just assumed that like because I'm the trans person in the room, I obviously did all the trans stuff, but aside from that, it was just all like, Oh my God, you're so brave.

00;48;11;02 - 00;48;34;06

Tate

This is incredible. Thank you so much for sharing your experience and for talking about this. And yeah, those aren't things people want to hear anymore now or really ever now. Like that's not fun. I'm not brave. I'm just a person and I'm just a person who decided to make art about this. I'm not brave if I decide to make art about other stuff.

00;48;34;06 - 00;48;45;04

Tate

Actually, you know what, though? That has been my experience. The entirety of of my photography career, though, is people just being like, Wow, it is so touching that you shared this. Because I used to make a lot of art about mental illness.

00;48;45;13 - 00;48;48;12

Jeanne

That's right. And you did some really good art about that.

00;48;48;26 - 00;49;13;05

Tate

And during one of my final critiques for a project I worked on, my whole classroom wouldn't critique my work because I think they were afraid of upsetting me because they thought I was too fragile. And I also think, like, it's hard to critique that kind of work when people don't have that experience because what are they going to say?

00;49;13;05 - 00;49;36;23

Tate

That it doesn't make any sense that your feelings aren't real or something like that. You're not accurately capturing your own feelings, right? Like it wouldn't. It's it's a weird place to have to critique from. But then also, like in my the notes for my professor, it was like, hey, by the way, here's uh, here's the talk line and all of that.

00;49;36;23 - 00;49;58;26

Tate

Just like, here's how you can contact the suicide helpline and all of those things. So that's always been an experience. Anytime you're talking about something taboo, people are going to call you brave, right? But that doesn't answer the question you asked me originally, which is what are those things that people don't talk about? Yeah, about transness and neurodiverse-ness and stuff.

00;49;59;10 - 00;50;07;27

Tate

And I think one of the first things is like trans joy doesn't get talked about very often, like how cool it is to be trans because it's so cool.

00;50;08;01 - 00;50;16;28

Jeanne

Yeah, I mentioned that before. Like when you were looking for resources about transition. There was nothing about gender euphoria.

00;50;17;01 - 00;50;17;23

Tate

Exactly.

00;50;18;03 - 00;50;19;00

Jeanne

For a long time.

00;50;19;06 - 00;50;47;05

Tate

And so stuff about that would be fun. I don't see any art about neurodivergence for the most part, like not on the mainstream really, unless it's like comics. It's definitely in comics, but it's not in like fine art that I've seen personally, at least in photography. Even like that, it's hard to capture. And so stuff about that would be almost anything would be new and interesting in some way.

00;50;47;05 - 00;50;48;18

Tate

But I don't know what I would do.

00;50;49;02 - 00;51;15;15

Jeanne

I well, I think it's illuminating the reaction people can have of like, here's 50 letters from a lot of people and they can imagine that one person wrote them because they're all about being trans and they're looking at one trans person, which is just baffling. Yeah, I think they see kind of just like if you're trans, then you have the one trans experience.

00;51;16;28 - 00;51;38;21

Jeanne

And in reality, not only do we have many, many experiences, but we're all talking to each other and we're in community. And that means a big part of the experience of being trans is interacting with trans people who are different from you, and that community aspect and relationship aspect would be a big thing. I think a lot of people just don't recognize.

00;51;38;21 - 00;51;39;28

Jeanne

Yeah, because they're not in it.

00;51;40;14 - 00;52;04;18

Tate

Yeah, I mean, think they can probably recognize that in other parts of their lives, but they just, they don't think of it that way because I don't, I think that is just the thing people do is like, forget that they're actually really similar to everyone else. Like nothing's that different. Like the trans community is the trans community. It's pretty special, but it's not different from most communities.

00;52;04;18 - 00;52;18;26

Tate

Like it's still a community, right? It's able to fit that definition because it meets some criteria. Yeah, that everyone else has that experience. Everyone's been part of a community, right? Like those things overlap.

00;52;18;26 - 00;52;31;03

Jeanne

People understand the concept of waking up and having breakfast and talking to your friends and having hopes and dreams and building things together. And that can be a very trans experience. It can just be anyone's experience.

00;52;31;03 - 00;52;45;17

Tate

Yeah, but people, I think, tend to default to like this person that's different from me. Like, is this one of these things or all of these things? And like the word monolith is coming to mind that just that is what happens.

00;52;45;18 - 00;52;46;10

Jeanne

Monolithic.

00;52;46;10 - 00;53;13;08

Tate

Yeah, they just get there. And well obviously this is the whole thing and I think that's just mostly from not being exposed to those experiences outside of that one person or whatever it is. You just, of course your - that's where your brain is going to go. If you only experience this person in this context every time, like, you know, yeah, like, yeah, those weren’t the right words.

00;53;13;08 - 00;53;30;01

Jeanne

But I remember when you were planning the Labor of Being Transgender project, you were trying to avoid kind of the obvious, Okay, I'm going to make a photo project about trans people. Yeah. Which is let me take a bunch of portraits.

00;53;30;08 - 00;53;31;00

Tate

Right.

00;53;31;07 - 00;53;32;18

Jeanne

Of people who look trans.

00;53;32;21 - 00;53;56;21

Tate

Yeah. And I also didn't know enough trans people, though some people have done that really well. Joshua Gutierrez, who we went to to his show, his senior thesis or his master's thesis, was was beautiful. And it was mostly portraits of gay people and trans people and that whole thing. But I couldn't even find the time in my schedule to take pictures of people.

00;53;56;21 - 00;54;09;07

Tate

So they were like a of things that were like, Yeah, maybe I shouldn't just take portraits of trans people. I don't think this would be effective and it doesn't. Everyone's done it - it's been done like a million times - well okay, not a million times.

00;54;09;07 - 00;54;11;09

Jeanne

No, but it's been done I think. Yes.

00;54;12;06 - 00;54;22;07

Tate

And and so like why do that? People know what trans people look like. That is a thing. It's if you want to see pictures of trans people, you can just find that on Instagram.

00;54;22;07 - 00;54;28;26

Jeanne

Well, and I bring it up because I think a lot of the time that thing people think about when they think about trans people is, Oh, you look different.

00;54;30;03 - 00;54;38;09

Tate

But that wasn't - that's already been covered. I didn’t want to talk about that. I wanted to talk about like and it's also for the class I was taking about labor.

00;54;39;13 - 00;54;43;01

Jeanne

Right. And that was just part of the prompt.

00;54;43;03 - 00;54;55;14

Tate

Yeah. But like emotionally we're like, we have a different emotional labor that we have to deal with every day. And we still do. And it's still actually a thing that we talk about all the time.

00;54;55;23 - 00;55;09;12

Jeanne

Well, and I think, you know, one of the definitions of emotional labor people like to point to is more of like customer service, like having to smile on the job, that kind of thing. Like as part of your labor, you have to do emotional labor.

00;55;09;12 - 00;55;10;01

Tate

Right.

00;55;10;16 - 00;55;13;24

Jeanne

And that was actually something that you could write about.

00;55;14;09 - 00;55;36;12

Tate

Yeah, that was that was my whole my whole thing. And I think even outside of being a customer service person, like a person who's worked in customer service or is working in customer service, yeah, that is what it's people have to do anyway. Being trans in public is like doing a customer service job. Let's be real. You have to, you're nice, you smile, you nod, you do all the things.

00;55;36;19 - 00;55;39;17

Tate

Because if you don't, you don't know what’s going to happen. Yeah.

00;55;40;00 - 00;55;42;29

Jeanne

Or you explain things you don't really want to explain.

00;55;43;27 - 00;56;02;22

Tate

But yeah, I was working at Sprouts at the time and so I was transitioning very early - on in my transition. So very obviously like going through some stuff while I was making that project and while I was working as a cashier at a grocery store.

00;56;03;14 - 00;56;10;05

Jeanne

Talking to for, you know, talking to a bunch of people in a row for a very short amount of time for each person.

00;56;10;11 - 00;56;31;07

Tate

Yeah. And most people wouldn't didn't say anything, but just having to go through the motions of like, how is this person going to gender me in this moment and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, over and over and over and over again. While, like I'm still getting used to things and figuring things out and so it was, it was an ordeal.

00;56;31;16 - 00;56;36;12

Tate

Um, but yeah that project was fun. That's the last, like, fine photography thing I did.

00;56;36;14 - 00;56;39;21

Jeanne

Yeah. And that was at the very end of your BFA.

00;56;39;22 - 00;57;03;05

Tate

Yeah, right before the pandemic. So I graduated December of 2019. Yeah. And then the world fell apart. And now I do graphic design, which I do really enjoy. I've always really enjoyed design, and now I have more skills, which is really fun, and I can always apply those to photography one day if I want to, or I can keep doing graphic design.

00;57;03;05 - 00;57;04;05

Tate

Also a lot of fun.

00;57;04;17 - 00;57;10;01

Jeanne

Now, in the pandemic, you didn't just go from being a student in college to working in graphic design.

00;57;10;14 - 00;57;12;28

Tate

No, I did customer service.

00;57;12;28 - 00;57;13;10

Jeanne

Right.

00;57;14;01 - 00;57;15;12

Tate

More customer service.

00;57;15;14 - 00;57;37;07

Jeanne

Early in the pandemic and into the mid-pandemic. That meant a lot of different things. You know, you also got really involved in, I guess one way to say it would be activism, and I think some of that really set you up to do graphic design work. Like I was saying and working together with mutual aid stuff and and.

00;57;38;03 - 00;57;39;17

Tate

White PAWS stuff and yeah.

00;57;40;03 - 00;57;43;07

Jeanne

But that's been a big part of your pandemic experience, I think.

00;57;43;07 - 00;57;44;10

Tate

Yeah.

00;57;45;02 - 00;58;00;14

Jeanne

And I'm not sure that everyone had that response righ? So you kind of got started around some of the racial justice uprisings in actually in 2020 right? That was in 2020?

00;58;00;16 - 00;58;06;22

Tate

Yeah. I didn't get to go to the earlier events and protests because I was mostly working.

00;58;07;01 - 00;58;07;13

Jeanne

Yeah.

00;58;07;13 - 00;58;40;25

Tate

And I couldn't because they all happened at the same time that, you know, like that's the night shift, oh no. But I was able to go to a lot of things and then I kept getting a little more involved here and there and doing mutual aid things and then just trying to help out wherever I was able to, which wasn't financially because I was a broke customer service agent slash cashier, depending on that, you know, month, whenever, whenever that happened or, you know, recovering from top surgery, all of that.

00;58;40;25 - 00;59;04;00

Tate

And so I could offer my services in other ways to, you know, like help further the movement. And so that was mostly like I can take pictures and I can put things on a digital page and send them out into the world. I can I can volunteer my time and my my expertise.

00;59;04;18 - 00;59;25;27

Jeanne

Is something you commented on, is that I mean, not not now, but something we've talked about is that those initial protests were huge. Oh, gigantic.

There was a lot of momentum. They fell off. Yeah, pretty quickly. But you actually got more and more involved in things over time.

00;59;26;09 - 00;59;36;02

Tate

Less so now. But that's, you know, mostly financial things still. Yeah. And also there's just not as much happening.

00;59;36;24 - 00;59;43;06

Jeanne

And you're involved in different work now. Yeah, but that was that was a really big thing for you.

00;59;43;22 - 01;00;08;07

Tate

It was interesting because it let me use a lot of different skills that I like to use, like not just graphic and art things, but also like I got to learn how to use Airtable and make forms and stuff. And that was also really exciting because I saw the intersection of industrial psychology.

01;00;08;07 - 01;00;11;00

Jeanne

Yeah, stuff you didn't really get to pursue as much.

01;00;11;00 - 01;00;33;06

Tate

I never got to pursue industrial psychology and never took a single class. Oh, really? Yeah. No, no, it was my major. And then I. And then I never - I didn't start college before I started college. Yeah, actually started in college. I changed my major. So I got to I got to use some of those things that I never actually officially learned but did have an interest in and did.

01;00;33;06 - 01;00;54;08

Tate

Yeah. Side research on in my youth. Oh, fun fact for listeners just because why not, in part one of this podcast I don't know if Jeanne's going to like put like a differentiating thing, but in part one, I was 24 and I'm now 25. I have grown a year older since.

01;00;54;29 - 01;00;55;21

Jeanne

We recorded these.

01;00;55;21 - 01;00;56;20

Tate

Interviews, two.

01;00;56;20 - 01;01;02;11

Jeanne

In whole or apart. So since then, you at the time you had just gotten back on T. Now it's a whole year.

01;01;02;21 - 01;01;03;11

Tate

Oh my God.

01;01;03;11 - 01;01;07;24

Jeanne

How is that been for-? Okay, I'm going to have to. You have to clean this up.

01;01;08;09 - 01;01;15;18

Tate

Oh, I hope you all enjoyed that fun fact.

01;01;15;18 - 01;01;22;12

Jeanne

Do you want to talk at all about the some of the things that went down with the protest and your arrest and everything? Or do you not want to talk about that?

01;01;23;03 - 01;01;53;01

Tate

I mean, it's I think it's already on Lefty's Instagram, so it's fine. Like it's it's really fine. I got arrested. It happened. It sucked as a trans person. Getting arrested is is an awful experience. It's different for everyone. Going into a protest there's always a risk of arrest. Right. And so a while beforehand, I had made a decision as if I were to be arrested as a trans person.

01;01;53;01 - 01;02;10;05

Tate

This is how would - I have to figure out how to handle it. How do I want them to treat me? This is before top surgery. So do I want them to put me with the women? Do I want them to put me with the men? Those are the only two options, but I have to pick one my ID said at the time and still says female.

01;02;10;16 - 01;02;16;23

Tate

But I was adamant when I was arrested that I wanted to be with the men.

01;02;16;23 - 01;02;17;29

Jeanne

But then they actually didn't.

01;02;17;29 - 01;02;38;18

Tate

They just didn't do that. No, they isolated me after the precinct. So the way it works is you get arrested. They don't do all the things that you see in movies and TV shows. That's total bullshit. It's fake, it's not real. And they never read me my my Miranda rights. Legally, they don't have to unless they plan to question me.

01;02;38;18 - 01;02;58;14

Tate

They asked me if I was going to answer questions. I said no. My arresting officer walked away. That was the entire interaction. And they take forever to fingerprint you. They do it like 12 times because they're terrible at it. Mm hmm. They’re really so bad. Well, they're better in jail. In the jail, they actually do - they're pretty quick.

01;02;58;20 - 01;03;16;26

Tate

But the cops in the precinct are just the worst. They're so bad. So you're sitting in the precinct. The precinct looks like the jails you see on TV. There's like, a bench, there's a couple holding cells, and then they take you to 4th Ave. Though that might be different now because they built like a new jail. I don't know.

01;03;18;04 - 01;03;38;18

Tate

And they make you like, well, if you're AFAB, they make you take a pregnancy test. And so they do some basic like, let's do some med stuff at the front to make sure, you know, we can just so we can say we checked you out and that, you know, if something happens in here, it's not our fault, blah, blah.

01;03;39;02 - 01;03;54;22

Tate

And then they send you off to a room to pee in a cup. Except they sent me off to a room to pee in a cup, and I never saw anyone else that I was arrested with for the rest of the night for about 8 hours at least. The minute I went in that room, I was separated from everyone else.

01;03;54;22 - 01;04;20;24

Tate

I got taken out very briefly to get my headshot or my headshot, my mug shot taken, and the second time they do everything more than once it's ridiculous. And then I went back into that room and I was alone entirely for the rest of my stay in jail. They said it was for my safety, obviously. Yeah, because it's right.

01;04;20;24 - 01;04;21;14

Jeanne

Yeah, because.

01;04;21;14 - 01;04;43;17

Tate

It's so safe. First of all, to be left alone with, like, a plastic bag. And, like, if it's for my safety, like, for myself, that's not safe. And if there's. Do they need to protect me from the other people that are in there or isn't that their job? Like, isn't why would they be able to fight me anyway?

01;04;43;19 - 01;04;50;07

Jeanne

Yeah, the only the only way to keep you safe is to punish you by isolating you. Yeah, but it doesn't hold water.

01;04;50;12 - 01;05;09;07

Tate

It's. Yeah, it's a ridiculous thing. And so you're just sitting there alone for a long time. They give you a bag of bread. Sometimes the bread is moldy, sometimes it's not. They give you a little thing, a jam that tastes like a grape popsicle. It's disgusting. And these little cookies that kind of tastes like coconut oil, really weird.

01;05;10;13 - 01;05;30;10

Tate

And the benches in there have bars on them, Like it's just like a concrete bench, but it's got a little metal bar in the middle so that you can't sleep on it because they don't want you to sleep. It's freezing inside. It's just terrible. You get a little bar soap to wash your hands with, but you can also draw with it like a soap stone.

01;05;30;19 - 01;05;51;25

Tate

So that's how I passed some of my time. When I wasn't sleeping, was I would, I was doing like lettering on the ground and the the people they got mad at me and they made me clean it up and it was a whole thing. And then you go to your IA [initial appearance], which might be in the morning at like 6 a.m. because that's when they do some of the IA’s or - they only do them twice a day.

01;05;51;25 - 01;06;20;17

Tate

That's the important thing. So if you don't go to the morning one, you have to wait many, many hours till the next one. And that's the end. Like it just they pat you down a million times. It's super uncomfortable. They never respect you and they say it's for your safety and it's not. It's a really broken system, but especially for people who are already considered other.

01;06;21;06 - 01;06;55;02

Jeanne

Yeah, I don't know if you remember, but at this point, a few years ago we were having a conversation about the word non-binary and comparing it to like genderqueer, queer and things like that and how you felt specifically in terms of like your gender. You've kind of shifted over time in terms of how you use those labels. I think maybe you have less strong feelings about it now, but I bring it up because I think there has been much more public awareness of the word non-binary.

01;06;55;15 - 01;06;55;28

Tate

Oh yeah.

01;06;56;12 - 01;07;18;20

Jeanne

And I think it really shapes the way a lot of people think about gender. Sometimes they think about non-binary people and trans and kind of divide those into separate categories, but it's really uneven. There's a lot of different understandings of that still, even though the word itself is much more common, there are celebrities who will decide to use they them pronouns and be very public about that.

01;07;18;21 - 01;07;28;12

Jeanne

Mm hmm. Has that changed things for you in terms of how people interact with you and people's, I think, more importantly, people's expectations of you.

01;07;28;12 - 01;07;55;19

Tate

I mean, I think it's helpful that people are using non-binary as a term more often. The - Okay. So back story. When I was in college, this would would have been like 2015 still before I started - before the first time I tried to do hormones and it was when I was still like figuring out like, oh, maybe I'm not a woman, blah blah, blah, blah, blah.

01;07;55;23 - 01;08;15;11

Tate

Right? The classic like, you know, I wouldn't mind if someone used all these pro- all of those things - all of the pronouns and just trying and trying different stuff out and bought my first binder and was like, well, I don't think like, I think gender's like, weird, but like, I don't, I don't know. I don't know, you know?

01;08;15;11 - 01;08;16;07

Jeanne

Yeah, it's.

01;08;16;08 - 01;08;16;15

Tate

The.

01;08;16;15 - 01;08;28;16

Jeanne

First stage of like, what if people did gender to me in a different way? Yeah. Like I'm not ready to do gender differently yet, but what about the idea of people just being different to me?

01;08;28;25 - 01;08;53;08

Tate

Yes. And also just like thinking about gender critically being critical of just like gender as a whole and like what that means. I had never thought about at all before, really. And so I started thinking about it, just like, how do I feel about gender and when gender, when people gender me and blah, blah, blah. And was like really femme at this time.

01;08;53;13 - 01;09;14;25

Tate

So it was a big deal because, oh boy, that not good for my brain is what I figured out long term. But after that, or around that same time I was using the word, I was obviously more specific with the language I was using to refer to myself because I thought I needed to be. And now I don't do that.

01;09;14;25 - 01;09;32;21

Tate

And that's kind of the point of what I'm talking about here is like at the time I was using like gender and stuff to describe myself. I actually prefer gender queer over non-binary. It took me a while to figure out that they were the same thing. I was like, Why are two words for the same thing? And it's not always the same thing.

01;09;32;21 - 01;09;43;04

Tate

Not everyone thinks of the same thing, but they describe a really similar experience. Yeah, and genderqueer is just like a has the word queer in it, and that's kind of that anyway. Well, I.

01;09;43;04 - 01;09;58;27

Jeanne

Saw a really good tweet the other day where someone was kind of speculating like the rise of non-binary as a preferred term over genderqueer is probably in some way connected to parents trying to accept their kids and not wanting to use a word that has the word queer.

01;09;59;15 - 01;10;24;07

Tate

Potentially. And also non-binary I think describes a little more directly that is outside the binary. Like it's really clear in that way of what it's describing in a way that genderqueer isn't. And so it took me a little while to understand that those two things were the same thing and. I was using genderqueer as a term to describe myself more often than but as non-binary as a term got more popular.

01;10;24;07 - 01;10;42;19

Tate

I just started saying non-binary instead. If I don't even feel like describing the word non-binary, I'll just say queer. And if I. If I say queer and people still don't get it, I'll just say gay and it's fine. Just realize I'm not like them. And that's as far as their brains actually end up going a lot of the time anyway.

01;10;42;19 - 01;11;02;15

Tate

They don't actually, they're not thinking critically about my gender. They just decide they see me and they're like, Wow, you're you look like this. But you're telling me you're not that. So I'm just going to remember you as a thing that is that but isn't. But I can't refer to it as that. And that's how that's just, you know, it's fine.

01;11;02;29 - 01;11;04;08

Tate

This is how gender works.

01;11;05;12 - 01;11;09;21

Jeanne

Gender is a set of rules of how you're supposed to view people.

01;11;09;27 - 01;11;12;14

Tate

That I think that is what it is for a lot of people.

01;11;12;22 - 01;11;13;14

Jeanne

Unfortunately.

01;11;13;14 - 01;11;48;11

Tate

Yeah. So in terms of the word non-binary becoming more popular, yeah, it's nice because it means there's a word I can say to someone and most well, not most people, but a lot of people are going to be like, Oh, I've heard that word before. Right? And that's really helpful though of course, sometimes there's still the situation, if I feel comfortable bringing it up, like if I'm, I don't know, somewhere and if I say I'm non-binary, there's like the couple people who, you know, would be like, Oh, you're one of those or something it doesn't happen almost never because I don't go outside.

01;11;48;11 - 01;11;48;26

Tate

But you've got to.

01;11;48;26 - 01;11;51;18

Jeanne

Elaborate on that a little bit is this people who are like -

01;11;51;23 - 01;12;01;15

Tate

Like if I'm at an event in public or when I was a cashier at a grocery store or any of these situations where I interact with the general public. Right?

01;12;02;10 - 01;12;14;09

Jeanne

So these are people who are not cool with queer people. Yeah. And then they hear you're non-binary and they're like, Oh, you're one of these purple haired freaks running America by ringing up my groceries.

01;12;14;09 - 01;12;34;00

Tate

Yeah, Yeah. And then they tell me to take more vitamin C and that I need to start eating brewer's yeast because it'll cure COVID. These things are not true. Don't Do them. But it's all that kind of stuff where people just. They hear a word and it immediately just like, incites anger in their brain. It just starts it.

01;12;34;00 - 01;12;40;05

Tate

They’re just like this is a word that I associate with all the bad things in the world and blah blah. And we do it too, like the other way around.

01;12;40;05 - 01;12;40;14

Jeanne

Yeah absolutely.

01;12;40;20 - 01;12;53;14

Tate

Neither thing is okay. Neither thing should happen. Though, mine is out of safety. My reaction is is a safety reaction. It's a fear based reaction. Their reaction is based in hate.

01;12;53;14 - 01;13;01;07

Jeanne

Give me some of the examples where that happens to you, like the kind of knee jerk reaction that you experience. What are some of those things?

01;13;01;07 - 01;13;24;28

Tate

Well, if someone says they, like, voted for Trump or whatever, obviously I feel less safe around that person because, well, they might not be cool with me. They they definitely are not a person that has used their political voice to do a thing that would benefit my life. And in fact, they actively do things that make my life harder and more dangerous.

01;13;25;19 - 01;13;31;03

Tate

Or it leads me to believe they would do those things based on that one piece of , because, stereotypes.

01;13;31;03 - 01;13;56;04

Jeanne

You're taking, the one piece of information that for real reasons is associated with a lot of really harmful things. And so then as soon as you hear that you're making a snap judgment. Yeah, and the same thing is happening to them where for whatever reason, a bunch of people have told them they need to associate being nonbinary with a bunch of things that they think are going wrong in society, hurting their lives on some level.

01;13;56;19 - 01;13;58;22

Jeanne

And so they have that knee jerk reaction about you.

01;13;58;27 - 01;14;07;21

Tate

And but their knee jerk reactions tend to be more combative and mine tend to be more of a flight response. And so that's also a really important difference.

01;14;07;21 - 01;14;09;02

Jeanne

That's really important difference.

01;14;09;18 - 01;14;30;24

Tate

Though, that's not always true with everyon, I know people who will see people who are more conservative or do certain professions and immediately get, not combative, but a little feistier. And that's fine because, yeah, trauma and anger and you want to express those emotions. And I get it.

01;14;31;07 - 01;14;53;14

Jeanne

Yeah. I mean, I get it too. But I think it's actually I think this gets into a really interesting area of transness as also a material thing we're talking about these things that we're wrapping up and having a reaction to out of some level of trauma. And for us, it makes sense because these are very material actions that are connected to material harm in our lives.

01;14;54;08 - 01;15;12;12

Jeanne

I'm not trying to do some weird both sides like thing about being non-binary or being trans, but we are doing a real thing. We're doing something that is material and changes how we move through society and therefore is something that alters society.

01;15;13;02 - 01;15;13;13

Tate

Yeah.

01;15;13;24 - 01;15;26;26

Jeanne

And I worry that by saying, well, we have our trauma fight response to then say, Well, this is fine, it's fine to just respond to trauma however we want it. It's not correct.

01;15;27;04 - 01;15;50;23

Tate

Yeah, no, no, we're not it's not fine to just respond trauma however we want necessarily. Yeah. We should always be working to - in whatever way it is like regardless of how you're like, better coping mechanisms are always better, right? It's always good to have real coping mechanisms for things instead of to like resort to your first emotional response in a situation.

01;15;50;23 - 01;15;59;25

Jeanne

And that's something I think you've been really good at. You do have real trauma and you have real trauma around these political things, but I think that you handle it really well.

01;15;59;25 - 01;16;03;20

Tate

Mostly, I just don't have to be in those situations very often anymore.

01;16;03;20 - 01;16;05;19

Jeanne

But that's a good point.

01;16;05;22 - 01;16;30;15

Tate

Yeah. That it helps to not be like to not have to come to terms with that. All the time. But I know that's not the case for people and for like other friends of mine, and they have different coping mechanisms or they're working on them at the very least. It's a long process. It doesn't just happen overnight. But the important thing is no one's just like, yeah, this is the this is how it needs to be forever.

01;16;31;01 - 01;16;39;14

Tate

I don't think that's helpful anyway. Like it prevents change and progress to just react emotionally every single time.

01;16;39;28 - 01;17;01;23

Jeanne

And I think that that applies to the way that you've been talking about transition too, instead of I have this trauma, I need to justify these actions all or nothing thinking breaking it down and saying I can try this, I can try that. If I don't like this, I can change it. Yeah. Also applies to how you can process and respond to trauma in other areas.

01;17;02;09 - 01;17;20;28

Tate

Nothing is black and white and it's cool to to live in the gray area. It also makes for better pictures. So you got to have all of the all of the tones. You can't just have black and white. This isn’t an Andy Warhol painting. We got to do more.

01;17;22;17 - 01;17;36;29

Jeanne

You can find more episodes of the Arizona Equals Conversation or sign up to be a guest on a future episode of the podcast at equalityarizona.org/stories. Thanks for listening and I'll talk to you again next week.

Thanks for listening to the Arizona Equals Conversation this year! As a reminder, we’d love to celebrate the holidays with you at our holiday bash next Wednesday, December 14th. RSVP on our website for more details!

Links for Context

* Disclosure on Netflix

* Lancaster LGBTQ+ Coalition

Full Transcript

00;00;00;12 - 00;00;22;00

Jeanne

From Equality Arizona, you're listening to the Arizona Equals Conversation. I'm Jeanne Woodbury. I'm the interim executive director at Equality Arizona and I'm the host of this podcast. It's one of my favorite things I get to do each week. Right now, we're looking for new guests to join the podcast, so if you're queer and you live in Arizona, I want to talk to you.

00;00;22;06 - 00;00;47;21

Jeanne

Let's set up a time to record an interview! If you want to send me an email, it's just my first name at EqualityArizona.org, or you can use the form on our website at EqualityArizona.org/Stories. While you're there, you can find the whole archive of past episodes of the show. Today's episode of the podcast is an interview with Aeron, a film student at ASU and a recent transplant to Arizona.

00;00;48;23 - 00;01;15;06

Jeanne

We ended up talking a lot about representation in a lot of different areas — education, social media, film, TV — and we also got into this idea of the utility of different labels: how we find them, how they help us, how we can add to the discourse around labels, by choosing them and by identifying with people and sharing our thoughts and our feelings.

00;01;15;17 - 00;01;48;12

Jeanne

It's a really cool conversation and I really appreciated their perspective about that, particularly as it comes to the word genderqueer. I think there's always more to be said about all of that, and I think that this is a great interview to hopefully jumpstart some more conversations about all of those topics. So let's just get started.

00;01;52;23 - 00;02;11;25

Aeron

So hi, I'm Aeron and I use any pronouns and I think I'm here just to really talk about the community and just expand people's minds and be able to start the conversation of LGBTQ.

00;02;12;07 - 00;02;12;18

Jeanne

Thank you.

00;02;12;24 - 00;02;13;02

Aeron

Yeah.

00;02;14;11 - 00;02;22;05

Jeanne

So I think when we were emailing, you mentioned you had just kind of recently moved to Arizona, right?

Aeron

Yeah.

Jeanne

And did you move here to go to ASU?

00;02;22;18 - 00;02;28;29

Aeron

I did. Everything shifted after college. So after high school, I was like, I'm going to come out here.

00;02;29;15 - 00;02;31;28

Jeanne

And how did you make that decision?

00;02;33;15 - 00;02;48;01

Aeron

Well, I was, like going into film and stuff, I was like: I need more of an environment that allows more film creators, something that had more like, what's the word… like connections.

00;02;48;12 - 00;02;50;18

Jeanne

Oh yeah. So like networking kind of?

00;02;51;15 - 00;03;03;00

Aeron

Yeah yeah yeah. And living in Pennsylvania, that was not a thing. I come from a small town in Lebanon. It's near Lancaster, so it's very hick-y. Do you know what hicks are?

00;03;03;11 - 00;03;05;25

Jeanne

Yeah. I mean, I know what that area of Pennsylvania is like.

00;03;05;27 - 00;03;12;21

Aeron

Yeah. So we have, like, some of the Amish, very conservative. And it was definitely not a place for film.

00;03;13;21 - 00;03;15;06

Jeanne

Right. That makes sense. Yeah.

00;03;15;07 - 00;03;22;08

Aeron

So I had to come somewhere different. And Arizona, I was expecting a little different because I was like, it's Phoenix, Arizona.

00;03;23;02 - 00;03;24;01

Jeanne

What were you expecting?

00;03;24;07 - 00;03;46;05

Aeron

I was like… I don't… It was this big city. It was like, it has to be like more liberal and just, way different environment. Which it was like I definitely experience less negative things here that I have at home. But it's still there's moments that I'm like still in kind of a red area, which can be negative, depending on who you are.

00;03;46;15 - 00;03;52;04

Jeanne

Yeah. What are some examples of like maybe what you were expecting and then what's actually been the case?

00;03;53;00 - 00;04;09;01

Aeron

So I think I was just kind of like, Oh, there's going to be more outlets and different like environment, it's going to be more of a positive, more of a liberal environment.

00;04;09;01 - 00;04;13;15

Jeanne

Yeah, like being able to find like here's the center for this and here's this, or all of that.

00;04;14;00 - 00;04;36;02

Aeron

Yeah, so I was kind of like, Oh, I'm going to go in this environment and it's going to be totally different than where I was because Lebanon was very conservative, which I mean, there's nothing wrong with being conservative. But some of the viewpoints that they had, some of the negative impacts that like the side of conservative they were, was negative.

00;04;36;06 - 00;04;40;22

Jeanne

It can be really difficult to be queer in a conservative environment.

00;04;40;22 - 00;04;41;06

Aeron

Yeah. Yeah.

00;04;41;09 - 00;04;45;01

Jeanne

Even if people aren't hateful to you, it can still be really difficult, I think.

00;04;45;04 - 00;05;10;28

Aeron

Yeah, our school, I mean, our school provided a lot of different outlets to support those people, but overall they didn't really like get down and kind of explore the negative parts of it, even talking to them. A friend and I were making a movement to change our caps and gowns because our caps and gowns are gendered, so the girls wear white and the boys wear blue.

00;05;11;09 - 00;05;38;00

Aeron

And it was just us trying to change that because there's no reason for it. It was just a tradition that they had years ago that serves no more purpose anymore. So we were trying to change that and trying to get rid of that. And still with the two years like we started our freshman year, just talking about it and then brought it to the attention of administration my junior year and still nothing has changed.

00;05;38;10 - 00;06;06;00

Aeron

I'm waiting to go back, so I'm going back in December and I'm hoping to go to like a board meeting and talk about it more and try to change that and get rid of it. Other than that, like, there's still other things. We have a gender neutral bathroom at my school, but it's kind of like you need to be careful going there because now kids use it to give an outlet for them to smoke cigarettes in our school…

00;06;06;06 - 00;06;34;09

Aeron

…and they're like, Oh, the gender neutral bathroom, just go in there and smoke. Like, It's okay. And that's making them like, Oh, we're going to shut down the gender neutral bathroom. And it's like these people who are cis are going in there to take advantage of it when there's a bunch of other students who need that and find support in that and it's being taken away from them because of these other students.

00;06;35;11 - 00;06;50;03

Jeanne

That's a really good insight. I never really would have expected that as the consequence of… like it's very… I don't think anyone would have thought, how is this going to get abused by just people who don't even need it?

00;06;50;18 - 00;06;50;29

Aeron

Mm hmm.

00;06;52;26 - 00;06;58;13

Jeanne

Do you know what people are trying to do to keep that open?

00;06;59;03 - 00;07;28;11

Aeron

Definitely a bunch of the students, queer students, just going to administration, like speaking out about it and saying how we can't shut it down like that there was so much built up to allow that to even be there, and having that taken away is insane. And I was a part of the broadcast program within my school, so we did the morning announcements every morning and we made it a point to like include anyone or speak on anything.

00;07;29;15 - 00;07;56;01

Aeron

So it was definitely like, make sure you're… we obviously couldn't pinpoint certain things or say certain things about it on the announcements, but we kind of like… be respectful and just be aware of what you're doing and how what you're doing, Could it be affecting other students in a negative way? And overall at the school, there's a lot of students who do negatively impact queer students.

00;07;56;01 - 00;08;33;26

Aeron

There's, I would say I would — most of students would be just yelled at slurs within our school, daily. I would say at least once or twice a day, I would hear it negatively used towards not only me, but other friends and other students in school. I just remember there was one morning especially that 7:00 in the morning, I'm getting out of my car to walk into school and there's just these kids in their car screaming at me and my friends like, Oh, you F-slurs, like No one likes your kind… and we're just walking into school.

00;08;33;26 - 00;08;54;25

Aeron

And I'm like, That's unbelievable. Like how people are able to do that. And we brought it to the attention of the administration. Nothing was done. We knew the exact place that they were and their car was, like their parking spot. Made it aware to the administration; nothing was done.

00;08;54;25 - 00;09;01;01

Jeanne

What do you think motivates people to behave that way. I mean, do you think it's just hate or do you think it's insecurity?

00;09;01;23 - 00;09;49;10

Aeron

I like a lot of the issues I see is done by education. There is barely any education within, especially Lebanon that has to do with queer or minorities in general. A lot of what we learn is completely whitewashed. People aren't learning. There's a teacher who recently went into our middle school who actually talked about these things. He brought up awareness and he got backlash from it, from administration, like he started this diversity club in middle school and it was on the verge of being shut down because it was "too radical," it was "putting things in the mind of students."

00;09;49;14 - 00;10;14;19

Aeron

So that was a big thing that he had to stop from happening. He was like, It's a diverse club. Anyone can join, anyone can be there. It has nothing to do with radical, like, ideations. Like it's just to keep students in a safe environment. So I definitely, like, growing up, I wasn't taught any of these things. I was only aware of what the word gay meant in like seventh grade.

00;10;14;25 - 00;10;38;26

Aeron

And at that point I grew up very conservative and it's a very, like very Christian conservative area. So I mean, majority of my friends and I did. So just hearing what that meant, I was like, What? Like, that's not okay. Like, I was praised for, um, like I was praised for saying it's Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.

00;10;39;16 - 00;10;40;21

Aeron

As funny as that is.

00;10;40;22 - 00;10;41;06

Jeanne

No, but it's.

00;10;41;07 - 00;10;45;24

Aeron

As a child. I'm saying these things and getting like, yeah, that's exactly what you should be saying.

00;10;45;24 - 00;10;51;11

Jeanne

You're absorbing political slogans that are like, older than you are at that point that you're saying them.

00;10;53;08 - 00;10;53;21

Aeron

Exactly, yeah.

00;10;54;17 - 00;11;15;04

Jeanne

And so I wonder, like, you know, you're having the same experience those kids are probably having who are yelling slurs at you, right? And not getting real exposure to things, having everything kind of suppressed. What do you think enabled you to get out of that mindset and why do you think they're still stuck in it?

00;11;16;10 - 00;11;50;04

Aeron

I would say I definitely… with how I grew up, I had more liberal side, to my mom. My mom's side was more liberal. So I still heard a lot of homophobic, racial things, but I think it started off with a little bit of that. And then social media, I got a hold of that and just the people I was in, in my environment, I was a big theater kid, so I was with a lot of kids who did know what that was and did identify within the community.

00;11;51;06 - 00;12;16;02

Aeron

So learning about that and just being surrounded by it really helped me. Like, This isn't bad, this is okay. These are people, like this happens. And then like obviously I grew to learn things about myself, like how I identify within the community and just being able to work through that. I definitely would say in eighth grade I struggled with that.

00;12;16;05 - 00;12;47;17

Aeron

I was like, Well, why am I feeling this way? I shouldn't be feeling this way. I should be, like, I should like guys, like I… So that was a lot to have to process and break down. But I think my outlet was definitely theater and broadcast and just who I surround myself with. And a lot of the students who don't have that or still acted in ways that were hateful towards not, not just the community, the LGBTQ community, but to black, black people within our school.

00;12;47;28 - 00;13;10;18

Aeron

Like they didn't have that. It was a lot of people. And you could tell like, Oh, well, they're in this club. Or like there's a lot of quote unquote segregation. Like, it was, it was subtle, but it was there like the broadcast crew, all the broadcast kids were very liberal. And then you would go over to the FFA, Future Farmers of America.

00;13;11;00 - 00;13;16;16

Aeron

That was Oh, well, those are the Conservatives. Like there was, it was very segregated through our school.

00;13;16;16 - 00;13;18;01

Jeanne

Like political segregation.

00;13;18;01 - 00;13;32;25

Aeron

Yeah, it was very politically segregated. And just within those clubs you could see that more students that were in the more conservative, created more negativity towards the kids in the other clubs.

00;13;33;00 - 00;13;58;13

Jeanne

And I imagine the segregation itself feeds a lot of that behavior. You mentioned being involved in theater and then also doing this kind of multi-year advocacy around access for queer people and like the gowns and everything. Was that a kind of contiguous thing of, Here's the theater, kids, we're all doing this or here's the broadcast kids, we're all doing this kind of advocacy?

00;13;58;20 - 00;14;37;29

Aeron

Yeah, definitely. So it started off with me and a friend of mine whose name is Grayson, and it was both of us taking initiative to try to change that. And then when we kind of grew that, it was, majority was students who participated in theater, in broadcast, who were included in the GSA club. So you could really tell like what students were in the conversation and who took a step back, maybe because they didn't want to express it just because the environment they were in and what the other kids would think about them trying to advocate for that.

00;14;38;15 - 00;14;44;11

Aeron

And then you could also see that they just, some of them just didn't. And some of them were that negative block within the school.

00;14;44;21 - 00;14;58;01

Jeanne

Right. Yeah. All of those experiences I think, as far as I can tell, lead directly into wanting to study film. But was there anything else that really motivated you to take that path?

00;14;59;11 - 00;15;28;07

Aeron

I would say the majority is just to make change and do different things, but also teachers, the teachers, some of them just were these great, amazing people who supported you. There was definitely ones who didn't, ones who said negative things. And I just remember being in a class with a teacher who would consistently talk about, Oh, well, you're going to get this Christian boyfriend and, is there a hickey on your neck?

00;15;28;07 - 00;15;42;08

Aeron

Is that from your boyfriend? I would consistently hear these things from the teacher and I'm like, first of all, that's inappropriate in a classroom setting. And second of all, who knows, maybe I do have a boyfriend. Maybe I don't. Why does that matter to you?

00;15;43;01 - 00;15;45;08

Jeanne

That's actually just very inappropriate. Yeah.

00;15;45;24 - 00;16;16;09

Aeron

Yeah, like it shouldn't be said in a classroom setting. So just having those things I got the negative part and I think that definitely drew me away a lot because that certain teacher was also the leader of our Students for Christ Club, which I was a part of. And then it just became so uncomfortable and so suffocating for me that I relied on the other teachers which were so supportive.

00;16;16;09 - 00;16;48;02

Aeron

A teacher of mine in broadcast — I had two — they were just amazing people. Not only did they help me through so many different things, but they also showed me how film can be that outlet of support to myself and other people. And I think that definitely impacted me to join film and just come out to a place, especially here. Another thing with Arizona State is that they are very involved with native reservations around here and including their voices in their students' programs.

00;16;48;11 - 00;17;02;06

Aeron

So I think coming out here was like, well, they teach those things. They kind of allow that outlet to open minds and open voices of minorities.

00;17;02;24 - 00;17;06;24

Jeanne

And that's really different than Amish country in Pennsylvania.

00;17;06;24 - 00;17;37;09

Aeron

Yeah. No 100%. Definitely different environment. I'm going from a big area where there's fields everywhere, like coming here it was like, Oh, there's… it's city. Like obviously not like New York, but it's 100% different than coming from a small town that's full of fields. So coming out here was different. And I've experienced totally different things with the people and who I am, and like who my environment is by.

00;17;37;26 - 00;17;59;14

Jeanne

Yeah. What's the environment like at ASU? I went to ASU, but I graduated a while ago, so I don't really know what it's like now for queer people, but it when I went there, it wasn't closed off, but it was also sometimes difficult to find out where the groups were. Where can I go to express myself?

00;17;59;14 - 00;18;27;20

Aeron

Yeah, no, definitely. Within the school there's a lot of different sides of things and I think being in the art program, I see a different side of ASU and I am surrounded by people who are accepting and who are advocating for those rights, for people of minorities. I have had one bad experience here, just — which, I was just saying like, just one — but like still it's like, having that experience.

00;18;27;28 - 00;18;43;02

Aeron

I was walking home and these kids driving by, I was with a friend, and they just yelled out their car slurs and I'm like…

Jeanne

This is in Tempe?

Aeron

Yeah, yeah. I just got out of this environment and now I was just reminded of it again.

00;18;43;15 - 00;18;57;27

Jeanne

I mean, even one experience like that is… I mean, you say Just One. It's like that, that's a really pretty traumatic experience, to be yelled at from a truck, right? There's like, kind of implicit violence in it.

00;18;58;04 - 00;19;23;29

Aeron

Definitely. Mm hmm. But I think there is resources and outlets. They definitely do a lot better job with any genderqueer students. They have the ability to, like, say, this is my preferred name, and right away that's used, right away that's put in the roster. Going around in like classes, I'm sitting there like, Oh no, what name are they going to say?

00;19;23;29 - 00;19;48;11

Aeron

What's going to happen? Because it's just a roster. Are they going to put the preferred name? Because sometimes it doesn't happen. But I've experienced complete relief going to classes and having the names called out because they put the preferred name there, which I think is very good and a very good step forward from previous years. And there's a lot of inclusion like going to the club days.

00;19;48;11 - 00;20;16;24

Aeron

There's multiple clubs that you can join that allow for voices to be heard and people to express how they feel and I think that's definitely really important to provide that outlet for students because a lot of the times where they're coming from, especially if they're coming from a different state or different environment, like, like myself, there aren't those resources or some of them grew up in worse situations where they're shocked by this.

00;20;16;24 - 00;20;36;22

Aeron

They're seeing a club in general that's representing them, and I think that's really important. I think ASU is doing a way more sufficient job than in prior years, like looking at the school. When I was in high school, coming here and realizing what they're doing, there's definitely always improvement, but…

00;20;36;28 - 00;20;37;14

Jeanne

For sure.

00;20;37;14 - 00;21;09;22

Aeron

There's always improvement in everything. But I think they've done a really good job. Within just the film program, there's teachers who express this and who I've already met who are genderqueer, and just the amount of respect that's put on them is just… like it shocks me, like it really does. You don't experience that a lot, especially coming from a small town, having a teacher be genderqueer blew my mind.

00;21;09;23 - 00;21;20;14

Aeron

It blew my mind. And I was just, like, shocked by it. But it was amazing to be able to see that because there are teachers like that, there are people like that. And seeing that was really eye opening.

00;21;20;23 - 00;21;44;03

Jeanne

Do you find that that improves the like… Well, I guess what I'm asking is, does that translate into being able to study the things you want to be studying more? Like if you have a teacher who's genderqueer and you're in an arts program or a film program, they can connect you to aesthetic styles and languages and things that are different than one another teacher might.

00;21;44;03 - 00;21;47;06

Jeanne

Has that been a really positive experience for you?

00;21;47;07 - 00;22;14;20

Aeron

Yeah, no, 100%. I'm currently enrolled in a woman gender and society class and just sitting in that class, like while the teacher is not genderqueer, but hearing the things and hearing what they're telling other students is like, wow. Like they're talking about these things. They're expressing these things. And we're not just sitting in a class where it's like, Oh yeah, there's queer people and there's people of color and then it moves on.

00;22;14;29 - 00;22;40;23

Aeron

No, we go in depth, we talk about it, and it was amazing. And then another teacher who will be my professor next semester is genderqueer. And I think it just makes me so much more happy to be in the class. I'm like, someone who can relate, someone who understands, like, and they talk about how they're going to be doing genderqueer studies and how to join the classes.

00;22;40;23 - 00;23;17;22

Aeron

Like they're telling you this, all these classes like how they love to be involved in queer studies and how when they went to college, they studied film, but they also studied psychology and queer studies. And it's like having those classes, you can type in when you type into the roster of classes, like there's so many different like there's not only queer studies, but there's just different topics, like just everything within the community and I think that's really important and having those because they're electives and anyone can take them.

00;23;18;07 - 00;23;29;09

Aeron

So I think that's really important and it's really like empowering to see that. It's very important to see that because you didn't see that before, so.

00;23;29;21 - 00;23;53;12

Jeanne

No, not really. I mean, I didn't see a lot of it when I was there. It was there. But I think it's grown as a program. You've used the term genderqueer a few times, which I really love, but I feel like has kind of fallen out of use to a certain extent. I had someone at a grocery store the other day ask me, Are you genderqueer?

00;23;53;12 - 00;24;20;11

Jeanne

And I was like, I never really use that term, but actually I do like that term quite a bit and they were so excited to talk to me about like figuring out their identity and using that word specifically as a tool to help them figure out their identity. So I think hearing you use that word reminded me like, oh yeah, this is something that hasn't been used as much, but I think is a really useful word.

00;24;20;11 - 00;24;26;04

Jeanne

And so I was curious, how did you find and connect with that term for yourself?

00;24;27;10 - 00;25;04;28

Aeron

I think growing up the word transgender was negatively used and I think that's why I just more… pulled towards genderqueer because it includes so many different things within it. And the word transgender… a lot of people, I, I think it's also just internally I learned for it to be it was like, oh, that's that transgender… or it was used negatively.

00;25;05;08 - 00;25;15;02

Aeron

And I think hearing that and like having people use that so much around me, like, oh, this is my friend, they're transgender. And I'm like… okay?

00;25;16;01 - 00;25;17;17

Jeanne

It was kind of othering?

00;25;17;17 - 00;25;42;15

Aeron

Yeah, like it made them othered and it's, I didn't see the point in that. And I think genderqueer, having a used a lot is kind of more like so much more broad it's so much more like connecting at least for myself and a lot of people like a lot of non-binary individuals don't use transgender, they do use gender queer.

00;25;43;12 - 00;26;05;05

Aeron

And I think that connects to them more. And I don't know if it's because growing up we were so used to hearing transgender in a negative light that we kind of strayed away from that. But I think genderqueer kind of just makes it more… like…

00;26;06;13 - 00;26;07;29

Jeanne

Do you feel like there's more potential in it?

00;26;08;09 - 00;26;09;15

Aeron

Yeah, yeah.

00;26;10;04 - 00;26;10;24

Jeanne

To like, carve your own path?

00;26;11;02 - 00;26;55;12

Aeron

Yeah, I think it allows because — Yes, yeah, because transgender was very use like, oh they're transgender, they're male to female or female to male. Like that's a trans man. That's a trans woman. And I think using genderqueer people are more like, oh, they're genderqueer, are they gender fluid, non-binary? Like there's so much, there's so much that people identify as and even using genderqueer like I'm genderqueer, I'm trans masc or I'm trans fem and I think it opened up so much more identities and so much more relation within people to maybe like connect and understand how they identify and why they identify this way.

00;26;55;22 - 00;27;19;17

Aeron

Because I think a lot of the thing is also taking gender and throwing it out, because of how much it was used and how negatively it impacted people. Gender is a concept and looking at how people react to it and using the word gender queer, it kind of just shows that there's no real point in gender.

00;27;19;17 - 00;27;43;25

Jeanne

You've used the word like, connecting, quite a bit with genderqueer, as like connecting to other people. I tend to think about gender as this really relational thing. Like for me it's hard to say, okay, I just have this really strong internal sense of what's going on. I really think, okay, how do I relate to other people? And then how does that kind of structure my gender as a relational thing?

00;27;43;25 - 00;28;07;18

Jeanne

So I like what you're saying in terms of that, and it really sounds like that's kind of what you're saying: genderqueer as this different way to relate to other people. I wonder with something like throwing gender out, I mean, we don't really totally have the power to do that. But what you're describing is, creating these spaces partly where you can do that, with the people who are there.

00;28;07;27 - 00;28;10;24

Jeanne

Is that, is that true or am I kind of misinterpreting what you're saying?

00;28;10;25 - 00;28;34;18

Aeron

No, I think I would totally agree with that. I think it also allows the people who don't totally feel like, oh, I was born into a female body, but I'm a man. Like some people don't identify with that. And I think using genderqueer people are like, I don't feel right in this body, or I don't feel right identifying as my assigned birth.

00;28;36;03 - 00;29;13;16

Aeron

But I'm not the opposite sex. I'm, I'm not, like I'm just a human. I'm a person who identifies as something different. And I think genderqueer is used a lot to help people pinpoint or identify like, I'm not cis, but I'm not the opposite gender. I'm non-binary or gender fluid. And I think using that and taking back the word queer, which has been done the past few, few years, like queer was used in very negative connotation.

00;29;13;16 - 00;29;41;06

Aeron

But now we're taking it back and kind of using it as an umbrella term. Not only with sexuality, but gender. So I think using the word genderqueer allowed certain individuals to be able to connect. And I think the connection is just, oh, well, I feel the same way. Or like I'm connecting with you because we have similar mindsets or we think the same or, maybe not everything.

00;29;41;06 - 00;30;08;16

Aeron

But you can pinpoint like, Oh, I, this, I feel this way and I feel this way. And a lot of people who identify within genderqueer, understand that and can allow for a better environment because of, I think, everything within the queer community. Queer youth is so much more… the rates for suicide is so much higher then…

00;30;08;16 - 00;30;10;14

Jeanne

Yeah, I mean it's, it's, it's terrible.

00;30;10;17 - 00;30;40;21

Aeron

Yeah. Being out of it and I think having that connection, having that, like I don't feel as though I am a trans man or trans woman. I feel genderqueer, I feel non-binary, gender fluid. And I think that opened up a whole new environment to allow queer students or queer youth to connect and to have that representation, that light, that feeling of inclusion.

00;30;41;05 - 00;30;59;12

Jeanne

Yeah. I'll speak from my own experience, which is, you know, I initially got to that point, of like, okay, I'm not cis. And then I spent maybe three years trying to figure out, okay, well, what can I actually do from here? Right? And I didn't feel like I was connected to other people in the way that you're describing.

00;31;00;04 - 00;31;22;19

Jeanne

And the people I really connected with who were able to — well, their experiences really showed me, okay, it's just about what am I going to go out and do? — were other trans women. And so that was something where I was like, this is an identity that's really helpful for me in terms of showing me a path for how I can exist in the world and who I can be connected to.

00;31;23;16 - 00;31;47;24

Jeanne

And I think that for many people, like you're saying, identities like trans woman or trans man can feel like the opposite of that: not a path that is easy to follow or fits with your experience. And I think probably now I wouldn't necessarily have that exact same experience, because it's a different moment in time and communities are different.

00;31;47;24 - 00;31;57;13

Jeanne

For me, I found those people on Twitter. That was kind of my thing. Where did you find the people that you could connect to?

00;31;57;19 - 00;32;27;14

Aeron

Um, TikTok.

Jeanne

Oh yeah?

Aeron

So many things were found on TikTok and a lot of social media is like that. I know Tumblr was a big thing that I was able to find these people or find more support through it and understanding with it. But I think a really big thing that has helped was TikTok. It provided so many different people, different individuals, different stories that…

00;32;27;14 - 00;32;51;07

Aeron

Scrolling, you'd find someone talking like, Well, I feel like this and I'm sitting there like, I don't feel that way, but I do feel what you're saying, like with this or that, and just connecting to those people, texting them like, hey, like what did you do about it? What do you feel? Like, I'm having similar feelings, but I don't know how to interpret it.

00;32;51;07 - 00;33;16;18

Aeron

So I think that opened up so much and just allowing people to hear other stories and other people's experience really opened up. And I think TikTok is used worldwide now. It's huge. It's, it's… so many people watch it, so many people listen. So I think that's definitely the big thing that allows for those platforms to express.

00;33;17;08 - 00;33;41;22

Jeanne

How do you find stories and experiences like that on TikTok? I think some people go on TikTok and they end up looking at videos of like ASMR type things, like I don't know how you… I don't actually really know how TikTok works in that sense of like, how do you connect to a community through it without already having that community to go out and find. What is that like?

00;33;41;22 - 00;34;02;27

Aeron

Um… Algorithm. Algorithm has so much to do with TikTok, so many… like there's this side or that side of TikTok and I think just scrolling through finding those certain ones that you like, liking them or watching them or looking at the comments, going on their page, it creates this algorithm to let you see different parts of TikTok and different people.

00;34;03;07 - 00;34;39;05

Aeron

I mean, even searching. I definitely did that myself in high school, like I feel like this. What does this mean? Like, why am I feeling this way? And hearing the words of genderqueer, or just anything within the community. You just, I'm searching it up. I'm looking like and I see all these these people who tag like hashtag genderqueer, and you're able to watch all these different experience or stories or just everything. And there's platforms on TikTok that's like, comment or like slide in our DMS and talk to us and tell us how you feel.

00;34;39;05 - 00;34;43;27

Aeron

Or there's a community, there's people who relate to it.

00;34;43;28 - 00;34;48;01

Jeanne

It's not just the videos; it's people actually talking to each other and listening.

00;34;48;01 - 00;35;17;21

Aeron

Yeah, I think it allows platforms to not only be on TikTok but have like a website that allows people to talk. And I know there's a lot of Discord, Discord that people will go on and you can text so many different people. There's… with my hometown there's the Lancaster Coalition. And they have a Discord that kids are talking on all the time.

00;35;17;27 - 00;35;43;14

Aeron

They're texting each other like, hey, you feel this way, you feel that way? And then they talk to themselves and maybe they hang out or maybe they just call and they talk about their experiences, which I think is important. And having that representation, especially in media, not only there but within myself, and film, I think it's important that I want to be able to show that representation because you don't normally see that on TV.

00;35;43;14 - 00;35;44;00

Jeanne

It's true.

00;35;44;27 - 00;35;58;11

Aeron

And a lot of that is on TV like especially in the 1900's, it was a lot of just male-identifying people dressing up as women to get a laugh out of people.

00;35;58;11 - 00;35;58;18

Jeanne

Yeah.

00;35;58;27 - 00;36;04;25

Aeron

I think that connection is really important, especially if they're on TikTok, and just media in general.

00;36;05;05 - 00;36;24;19

Jeanne

Yeah. So I mean, I'd love to hear about your goals for your film studies. Do you want to work in that kind of area of like creating mass media with representation? Or do you have a… I mean, I know some people in film studies programs are doing really kind of avant garde stuff. What's your goal with that?

00;36;25;15 - 00;36;51;29

Aeron

I think I have so many — like right now, I have so many different ideas in my head.

Jeanne

That's great.

Aeron

I'm a freshman in college. And I'm like, I could do this. I could do that. And I think my main point in things is I want to just… I want to make movies. I want to make actual movies like thrillers or just TV shows that have representation in such a natural way, like in our everyday life.

00;36;52;13 - 00;37;13;12

Aeron

I think a lot of the stories that we're seeing now in media is like Love, Simon. It's a good film, but it's… someone's coming out, and they have to deal with all of this and the internal, and I think that's definitely important. I'm glad we have that representation of different films in general, just having people within themselves coming out.

00;37;13;12 - 00;37;30;05

Aeron

But now we need to show people in everyday life, we need to show people interacting with others, like, yeah, they're queer and there's, there's no emphasis on it. There's no like, this whole story's about you coming out. Not that. Just showing people.

00;37;30;10 - 00;37;56;06

Jeanne

Yeah, I don't know if this rings true for you, but I think when a story and when the whole body of stories focuses on that internal coming out process, it's actually really isolating because it just kind of says being queer is about having difficult feelings and figuring out how to say them…

Aeron

Yeah.

Jeanne

…instead of, being queer is about being around other queer people and living your whole life as a queer person in public.

00;37;56;10 - 00;38;21;19

Aeron

No, definitely. I think a lot of them have a lot of isolation. And while it's true for some people, others, they grow up in a place where that's so much more accepted and they feel like they don't need to hide that or they don't need that internal like process of hatred, of isolation within themselves about it. And in some ways, I feel like it could harm some individuals watching that.

00;38;21;19 - 00;39;07;18

Aeron

They're like, well, they have — and there's so many that have this internal struggle, never come out, never say anything, and a lot of them end up committing suicide on these films. And it's like you're showing this one outlet, this one way out. That's not it. There's so many more opportunities for so many people. There's so many resources to be able to help not only yourself, but others like be okay and help you learn your identity. And a lot of films I'm seeing are about that internal struggle and then they come forward about it and it's conversion therapy and there's this big uproar in the family, religious family.

00;39;07;18 - 00;39;35;22

Aeron

A lot of them start off with the internal struggle, them saying something and their family's very religious. And there's this, Oh, I hate you, this hatred. And I think a good scene to show this like internal struggle, then this religious family is in Glee. Santana, she has a lot of internal struggle and then comes out to her Abuela…

00;39;35;24 - 00;40;00;20

Aeron

And her Abuela just completely just denies her. And I think it's important to have representations of that. But majority of them are like that. And I think we just need to show people not, not a queer coming out story, just people like, oh, this is my friend, they're dating a girl. It doesn't matter. No, you don't need to say anything like.

00;40;00;20 - 00;40;04;10

Jeanne

Right, and actually show like real people's lives.

00;40;04;19 - 00;40;44;14

Aeron

Yeah, no, definitely. And I think a lot of times they're just they they put them in this box, they isolate them within, not being isolated, coming out. They're like, Yeah, this is my friend, they're trans and it's like, okay, you didn't need to see that. Like, that wasn't important within the storyline. I think it's just… the creators need that, they need that, Oh well we're improving things because we have a trans person and it's like, no, you have, you have a person…

00;40;44;18 - 00;40;50;09

Aeron

And I don't think it's important to outline that if it's not needed within the storyline.

00;40;50;12 - 00;41;15;24

Jeanne

Yeah. And like if you're going to write a trans character, think about how would this actually work for a person in their life instead of just — here's a person, they slot into this character role or we give them a tragic story, whatever it is. And it's sort of like, here's a label for this character instead of like, I don't know… for me when I think about the parts of my life where I'm Being Trans.

00;41;16;05 - 00;41;33;28

Jeanne

It's like filling out forms and dealing with insurance and like, that's not always true. Sometimes it's about being around other trans people, but it's not just like everything I do is the trans version of doing something, right, which I think is kind of what a lot media portrayals end up creating.

00;41;34;18 - 00;41;41;29

Aeron

I would totally agree. There's this really good documentary that I watched. It's called Disclosure.

00;41;42;11 - 00;41;43;04

Jeanne

That's great. Yeah.

00;41;43;05 - 00;42;32;20

Aeron

And it provided so much education within media and the community. It showed like how it progressed through the years and what they did a lot of the times when they presented a movie that included a trans character, they would — So there's, I'm not sure the name of the film, but it was a trans woman and the actor was a male and they kind of made it more aggressive because they're showing this progression of a character who could be played by someone who's experienced that thing, not a man.

00;42;34;01 - 00;43;07;01

Aeron

And I think that was definitely something that helped me realize different like, it should be played by the people who represent it, who are able to know the story and show it accurately. And the first time we ever — a lot of, a lot of film in prior years was trans women. And the first kind of time you see any sort of trans man or transmasculine is in the L Word and there was a lot of negative impacts with that.

00;43;07;01 - 00;43;17;17

Aeron

They showed him being more aggressive when he started testosterone, and I think that shined a bad light on… anyone.

00;43;17;17 - 00;43;19;05

Jeanne

Yeah, they didn't handle that well at all.

00;43;19;05 - 00;43;53;14

Aeron

Yeah. I think it made it very negative and it made it made people be like, oh, that person started testosterone, better beware because they're going to get really angry. And it's not like that. Like it's not. I think they just shined a really bad light on it. And a lot of the lesbians in the movie were like saying, Oh, well, you're just denying that you're a lesbian to this trans man who still is in relationships with women.

00;43;53;27 - 00;44;18;16

Aeron

Like, no, he's not denying he's a lesbian, he is a man. And I think that just made so much more ability for people to hate, for people to gain this, well in the L Word they didn't like that trans man because he was just, he was just denying that he was a lesbian. And I'm like, no, no, he is a, he's a man.

00;44;18;28 - 00;44;23;14

Aeron

And they're just making it such a negative thing.

00;44;23;14 - 00;44;41;18

Jeanne

Yeah. And that's the whole butch flight concept. And it feeds into the a lot of like the TERF stuff in Britain where it's, oh, well, these are just people who are gender nonconforming, but they're not trans. They shouldn't transition or whatever. And it's, it just feeds into all of that.

00;44;41;19 - 00;45;08;27

Aeron

Everyone's story is different. Whoever you are, whether you are identifying as trans man, trans woman, gender non-binary, queer, genderqueer, like everyone has a different story. It's not the same whether someone… because you constantly get the people like, Oh, you're trans, did you get the surgery? Like, does it matter? Some people do, some people don't. Maybe because they're comfortable with it, maybe because they don't even want it.

00;45;09;09 - 00;45;37;13

Aeron

Some people don't. And I think that's something that's also need to be talked about, like, we don't need these things. You don't need to transition with bottom or top surgery to identify within these certain communities, within these certain identities. Like some people don't choose to do that. And that's their choice. And I think that a lot of the times when showing them through media, it's always the same.

00;45;37;27 - 00;46;11;21

Aeron

It's always the same representation, like, oh, well, I just got this surgery and I have to get this surgery to like fully transition. No, you don't, you don't. Everyone, everyone has different stories and I think it needs to be shown more. And going back to what I want to do in film like, I want to show that. I want to be able to have coming of age movies, stories, shows that just represent people. Not, not people like, not a story about someone who's trans and it's all about them because they're trans.

00;46;12;00 - 00;46;37;06

Aeron

No, I want to show people and like include… you're not like… a majority of the time when you're going out in public, there's probably someone who's trans and you just don't know it. There's probably people who are a lesbian or gay. You don't know. You can't, you won't know. And I think it's important to show that and that it's normal.

00;46;37;06 - 00;46;59;07

Aeron

It's not this crazy thing. Oh, you're part of the LGBTQ community, like explosive, like this crazy thing. Like, what about this? What about this? Like, yeah, I'm a person. I'm a human being. I don't think it's important in some senses to other them.

00;46;59;16 - 00;47;04;20

Jeanne

Well, thanks for talking with me. We've got to wrap up, but I really appreciate you taking the time to be on the podcast.

00;47;04;29 - 00;47;08;01

Aeron

No of course, it's awesome. I really thank you for the opportunity.

00;47;08;02 - 00;47;28;20

Jeanne

Yeah, totally. Thanks again to Aeron for sharing their time with me and for sharing their story on the podcast. If you're looking for ways to get involved with Equality Arizona or to join in the conversation, just visit our website EqualityArizona.org. Thanks for listening and I'll talk to you again next week.

On today’s episode of the Arizona Equals Conversation, our very first guest, Geoff Love, turns the microphone on Jeanne Woodbury to record her story.

Links & Context

* State-by-state name-change guide

* Map of informed consent clinics for HRT

* “Enragement equals engagement”

Full Transcript

00;00;00;13 - 00;00;28;14

Jeanne

From Equality Arizona, you're listening to the Arizona Equals Conversation. I'm Jeanne Woodbury. I'm the interim executive director of Equality Arizona, and normally I'm the host of this podcast. The idea for today's episode started with a text from Geoff Love, one of our wonderful volunteers and actually my very first guest on the podcast. He reached out and said, Let's turn the microphone around and record an episode about you.

00;00;29;18 - 00;00;55;25

Jeanne

That's about me! I thought this would be a really fun idea. And we sat down. We recorded it. I even left in a little bit of our conversation planning for the interview, because I just thought it was so fun. I'm recording this intro on day ten of a pretty terrible cold, so I'm going to keep it short, but towards the end, we talk a little bit about some of the events that Equality Arizona is putting on.

00;00;56;13 - 00;01;23;10

Jeanne

And we recorded this before the election. So a lot of it's out of date. But I want to extend a special invitation to everyone listening right now to come to our holiday bash on December 14th. You can find more information about that on our events calendar soon at EqualityArizona.org/Events. So thanks so much for listening and thanks to Geoff for being my first guest and for being the host of today's podcast.

00;01;23;24 - 00;01;38;24

Jeanne

Let's roll the tape.

00;01;43;22 - 00;01;59;15

Geoff

So I was thinking, especially with your new role, that would be something great to touch on, but also a little bit more about why you got into the role in the first place. When I look at your blurb online, it tells a little bit, but there's not really much. You don't really have an online presence that I could find.

00;02;00;09 - 00;02;19;10

Jeanne

Oh yeah.

Geoff

So there's not much research, so when people look you up. So, you know, this might be kind of a way to explain a little bit where you come from, you know, what you want to do, maybe in your current role, what you are doing in your current role, and then maybe how you want to take the organization forward. I don't know if you wanted to focus more on Equality Arizona or on yourself or a combination of both.

00;02;19;11 - 00;02;21;09

Geoff

What, what is your goal, I guess?

00;02;22;00 - 00;02;39;14

Jeanne

Well, when I was writing that blurb, there's a little section at the end where it's like, Wait, who is Jeanne Woodbury anyway? And originally in my draft, I just titled that, Wait, who the fuck is Jeanne Woodbury? Because I think, you know, people don't know who I am, right?

Geoff

Right.

Jeanne

So I think it'd be cool to talk a little bit about like the organization and what I'm doing there.

00;02;39;14 - 00;02;46;05

Jeanne

But I think it also would just be nice to do kind of the standard like, well, who am I as a person, storytelling thing.

00;02;46;05 - 00;03;00;07

Geoff

And then I figure at the end, you know, it would be a good kind of way to, you know, pivot to what you know, you're doing with your organization, maybe what your plans are, especially right now, I mean, the midterms are in like 12 days and you're a political organization. That's a huge —

00;03;00;07 - 00;03;00;17

Jeanne

Yeah. Yeah.

00;03;00;27 - 00;03;02;11

Geoff

You know, something to talk about, so.

00;03;02;11 - 00;03;03;18

Jeanne

Definitely something to talk about.

00;03;03;18 - 00;03;23;22

Geoff

But I would think, at least for me, when I listen to them, it's more interesting when I hear where people come from, you know, what are their background stories.

Jeanne

Yeah.

Geoff

It's like where, you know, maybe you grew up. I know you grew up over here, but, you know, also whatever you're comfortable with talking about, I didn't want to, you know, put you on the spot on the recording while we're going, you know, oh! And then you're like, Silence.

00;03;24;10 - 00;03;29;17

Jeanne

Yeah, no, I mean, I can always just edit it. I have the final edit power so I can just —

00;03;29;17 - 00;03;30;03

Geoff

Okay, alright.

00;03;30;03 - 00;03;50;12

Jeanne

If we get somewhere and I don't have a good answer, I could just kind of eliminate that. But, I mean, really, like, you can push it as an interviewer, like you can take the conversation wherever your curiosity leads. And if I don't have a good answer, that's kind of my fault. But I don't want to prejudice the conversation in terms of where we can go.

00;03;50;14 - 00;03;58;03

Geoff

Okay, alright. And I do want that more of a focus on you. I want to do as little talking as possible.

Jeanne

Okay.

Geoff

So that's my goal.

Jeanne

Cool.

Geoff

So are you ready to…? [clicks three times].

00;03;58;04 - 00;03;59;11

Jeanne

Yeah! Okay, let's get into it.

00;03;59;26 - 00;04;02;00

Geoff

All right. So I guess, are we, are we recording?

00;04;02;01 - 00;04;04;05

Jeanne

Oh, yeah. We've already been recording.

00;04;04;17 - 00;04;24;25

Geoff

Well, first I want to say, Jeanne, it might be a little strange for you to be on the other side of the mic today, but thank you for joining the Equality Arizona podcast. My name is Geoff Love. I am currently a volunteer with Equality Arizona. Jeanne, if you would just, I guess, I know you always tell us a little bit about yourself, but kind of well, maybe expand a little bit more.

00;04;24;26 - 00;04;28;15

Geoff

Tell us a little bit about yourself, what you're doing right now, and then we can go from there.

00;04;28;16 - 00;04;57;19

Jeanne

Yeah, for sure. So I'm Jeanne Woodbury. I guess something that I've been thinking about since you asked me to flip the microphone a little bit is that I actually kind of hate talking about myself. And it's funny because I bring people in and I'm like, you know, I'm going to ask you all these questions about who you are that actually just make me nervous a little bit because it's weird to talk about myself and now I'm going to do that.

00;04;57;19 - 00;05;32;23

Jeanne

So I think, you know, I like to talk about what I do instead of like, who I am. And right now what I'm doing is I am taking on this new role as interim executive director at Equality Arizona, which is just so exciting in a real way. Like I have always been so fascinated by corporate governance and management styles.

00;05;32;23 - 00;06;18;20

Jeanne

Just the idea of, how do you build an effective team? How do you distribute decision making in a way that is equitable and efficient and results in really good products? Right? And, you know, this is a nonprofit. So when I talk about product, it's not something we're selling, right? But I think all the same ways people talk about how to create a good, responsible, sustainable, for profit business do apply in the abstract to nonprofits, you know, and one of those things is that product, how do you make like a really good… how do you deliver good value to your, you know, quote, customers, which, that gets really complicated.

00;06;18;20 - 00;06;40;14

Jeanne

Who is your customer when you're a nonprofit organization? And that gets really away from me. You can see I'm already like not talking about myself, but it's fun to be in this role because I get to think about those things and direct them towards doing really interesting things that I care about in the community and in politics.

00;06;41;02 - 00;06;59;12

Geoff

Well, I know you don't really like to talk about yourself, but I find that so often that it's where we come from and who we are usually dictates what we're doing with our lives. So I guess just, you know, maybe start, you know, when you started, you know, kind of deciding that this is something you wanted to get into.

00;06;59;12 - 00;07;11;16

Geoff

I mean, it doesn't have to be the most recent, it could be you know, childhood experiences that, you know, you thought of or, you know, something that you saw and you're like, you know what? That's not quite right. And, you know, I want to kind of change the narrative maybe a little bit.

00;07;11;16 - 00;07;34;00

Jeanne

Yeah. And I mean, that's an interesting way to talk about it. Like, how can I change the narrative, or what problem am I identifying that I want to get involved in. I think on some level I just wanted to do this work. I remember, you know, the first kind of political work I got involved in; It was something my sister invited me to.

00;07;34;07 - 00;08;05;17

Jeanne

And one of my friends who I wasn’t super close with yet at the time, but one of my friends was organizing it and I thought, Yeah, I'll go to this. Maybe it'll be important. I don't know. And I went to it and I thought, okay, yeah, this is interesting and I like the way we're doing things. I like that it's very discussion based and collaborative, and I think there's really interesting stuff we could do here, but I actually wasn't super convinced by the issue.

00;08;05;20 - 00;08;23;12

Jeanne

Right? It was not an issue driven thing for me at the start, and it took a while for them to persuade me, Oh yeah, this actually is the thing we should be focusing on as compared to, you know, whatever other political issue. This was back in like 2009, Obama had just been elected.

00;08;23;17 - 00;08;24;18

Geoff

Oh, the golden years.

00;08;26;10 - 00;08;47;08

[Both laugh]

Jeanne

Golden years. Yeah, in a real way. And I think, you know, I was, what, 15 or something? And at that moment in politics in the country and that moment in my life, it was kind of like, what do I want to do? Which political area is interesting? I'm not sure yet, but I know I want to do this work and I want to work with these people.

00;08;47;22 - 00;08;50;22

Jeanne

And so that was kind of what pushed me into that.

00;08;51;00 - 00;08;54;20

Geoff

And at 15 you were already interested in politics or thinking about politics?

00;08;54;20 - 00;09;15;10

Jeanne

I guess, yeah, politics or just teamwork like, like having a cool team of people who are collaborating on something interesting — which was political, but. Politics is one of those areas where you're kind of constantly in a startup mode. And the idea of a startup is just massively compelling to me.

00;09;15;22 - 00;09;33;22

Geoff

Well, every cycle it changes, right? I mean, especially I'm sure you know that right now with Equality Arizona. You know, it's you know, every two years, you know, the landscape changes. And it's really changed rapidly right now. I guess, how have you kind of… I mean, you were so young, you know, when all of these changes really happened. I mean, Obama was eight years.

00;09;33;22 - 00;09;40;15

Geoff

And then, of course, the Trump years happened during your formative time, too. How did that kind of impact your work or did it impact your work?

00;09;41;04 - 00;10;08;03

Jeanne

Well, honestly, what impacted my work, what like kind of drove my course through things, wasn't the actual political landscape. I talk to a lot of people and they're really influenced to get into politics by some kind of specific moment in politics. Trump is really often that, that driving moment.

Geoff

Oh yeah.

Jeanne

2016 happens and they say, oh wait, where do I actually want to be?

00;10;08;09 - 00;10;29;17

Jeanne

This is a new kind of politics from what I'm used to, and I think I need to get involved.

Geoff

Angry politics.

Jeanne

Angry politics and just, you know, clearer battle lines. Right? And then some muddier battle lines that people didn't think of before, whether that's like inside the Republican Party or whatever. And I talk to people who have very different political opinions.

00;10;29;17 - 00;10;55;00

Jeanne

And for a lot of them, that's kind of the moment. But for me, that wasn't the case. There wasn't sort of a, Oh this thing happened and it made me change things, or influenced my decisions. I mean, when I got into politics, I was in the camp of all the people that I work against right now. And there was a moment where I came out and thought, okay I'm going to keep doing this.

00;10;55;12 - 00;11;05;19

Jeanne

It'll just be interesting to have this perspective of being a queer person doing this kind of political, social work. And they decided they didn't want that. That kind of…

00;11;05;20 - 00;11;06;23

Geoff

They as in your family?

00;11;06;27 - 00;11;34;01

Jeanne

No, no, no. They as in like, you know when I'm talking about, the people that I'm kind of working against now a lot of the time. I wasn't getting direct messages from them, but I remember the friend I mentioned earlier who was kind of leading that group of people really directly communicated to me like, hey, it's getting harder to work with this, you know, group of political power makers because you're out and you won't shut up about it.

00;11;34;21 - 00;11;36;21

Jeanne

So I need you to shut up about it a little.

00;11;36;21 - 00;11;39;26

Geoff

So you're getting pushback from your own, basically, peers?

00;11;39;26 - 00;11;40;07

Jeanne

Yeah.

00;11;40;21 - 00;11;41;06

Geoff

Okay.

00;11;41;19 - 00;11;43;27

Jeanne

And it was indirect, right? But it was…

00;11;44;04 - 00;11;44;20

Geoff

Still.

00;11;45;04 - 00;12;11;00

Jeanne

Yeah. And so I said, actually, you know what? I'm not going to shut up about it. So I'm out. So after that, I didn't immediately shift to like, okay, here's my new politics, but I just started to think about, well, why is it that people who have this kind of conservative opinion also have to be anti-gay? What links these ideas?

00;12;11;00 - 00;12;46;03

Jeanne

I couldn't see it for a long time. Like what was actually driving their political philosophy to be something that had to exclude me? And the more I thought about it, the more I realized where they were actually coming from. And it made me uncomfortable with how I was aligned with them politically. And I had to just spend a lot of time thinking through, what are my actual core values as a person, and then how does that affect how I want to engage with politics and what my, you know, policy positions are going to be and really separating all those things out from each other.

00;12;46;23 - 00;13;06;25

Jeanne

And it was really interesting and instructive. But during this whole period, I wasn't doing political work. I was just doing other things. I was going to college, I was traveling, I was going to grad school, I was doing other kind of work. And it was only recently that I got back into politics through Equality Arizona actually, in 2020.

00;13;07;07 - 00;13;14;12

Jeanne

So I had a real wilderness period, I guess, where I had to spend a lot of time reevaluating things.

00;13;14;26 - 00;13;32;17

Geoff

So I guess talk a little bit about that because something, you know, sometimes those, you know, journeys actually do, you know, kind of, they're going to impact what you're like right now. So what did you do in the wilderness times? You know, college, grad school. I mean, were there classes that you took or professors, mentors that you kind of met that shaped your views now?

00;13;33;21 - 00;13;58;01

Jeanne

Yeah, definitely. I mean, that moment I was describing where it was like, hey, this isn't going to be okay for you to be out in this way. I hadn't come out as trans. I had just come out as bisexual. I was still figuring things out for myself and this was during college. So I was in college at this point and trying to figure this stuff out.

00;13;58;01 - 00;14;29;28

Jeanne

I didn't feel like I had a real community around me that I could figure out my queer identities with. Most of my community was tied up in that conservative world. And so I remember just getting to that point in my life and then experiencing the sudden vacuum of community connection. And I didn't really reestablish that in a real way for maybe a couple of years.

00;14;29;28 - 00;14;53;28

Jeanne

I'm not sure. It was difficult going through the last couple of years of college for me, but I had a friend who I, you know, I'm still in touch with. She moved out of state, but I have gone and visited her. It was challenging because she moved pretty much right before the pandemic started, but we met through a scholarship program we were both in, and she actually went to the University of Arizona.

00;14;53;28 - 00;15;13;21

Jeanne

I went to ASU, but we started this article club thing together, which is like a book club, but for people who don't want to put all the time in to read a book every month, and it was actually really delightful. And occasionally we did pick books instead of articles, but it ended up being really like a political salon, right?

00;15;13;26 - 00;15;35;20

Jeanne

Come and discuss these political ideas with people who are actually, you know, coming from a lot of different places politically. And it was… well, there were a lot more queer people in that space than I had been around before. And that was fantastic for me.

Geoff

At ASU.

Jeanne

Well, at this article club, which was just… my friend hosted at her home in Tucson.

00;15;35;20 - 00;16;00;17

Jeanne

So I would… every month I would drive down to Tucson for this article club, and I'd come with my list of discussion questions and we'd have some fun with it. And we'd drink some wine and then after about an hour of talking about the actual article, we would just talk about politics in general. And that was just like this sourdough starter culture thing for me, to just like really digest the sugars into different molecules, right?

00;16;00;17 - 00;16;08;25

Jeanne

In a healthy and interesting way. And that that was where I was really able to find some community again at that point.

00;16;09;04 - 00;16;27;19

Geoff

It's just amazing that politics played such a role so early. I mean, for many young people, I don't think, you know, especially in my generation, I'm in my forties and that… politics never entered my mind when I was in my twenties. But now I find more of your, you know, those in your generation, you know, just to kind of give that dividing line, are really more involved.

00;16;27;19 - 00;16;45;09

Geoff

They're more attuned, I think, to what's happening in this country. Did you find that was something that you just kind of gravitated towards people that were more politically aligned? Or was it, you know, something that you always were interested in? Because politics, you know, I'd honestly say for the most part, it's not something that most twenty year olds are excited about.

00;16;46;06 - 00;17;11;01

Jeanne

Yeah, I guess that's a good point. I mean, you're right that maybe there's more people who are young now who are interested in politics than in previous decades. But at the same time, I think that ebbs and flows, you know? Right. I think it's pretty easy to go back to some other generations and see really young people really engaged in the political process.

00;17;11;08 - 00;17;12;05

Geoff

Like the civil rights era, the 70's.

00;17;12;12 - 00;17;17;29

Jeanne

During the civil rights era, the 70's, during the AIDS crisis, obviously, a lot of very young people.

00;17;17;29 - 00;17;19;11

Geoff

The 90's, when I grew up.

00;17;19;13 - 00;17;43;15

Jeanne

Yeah. So that's a, that's a thing that ebbs and flows, but it also is just really hyperlocal to different communities, right. Like who gets fired up about it and who doesn't? It's not really uniform, I think. At least in my experience, from what I'm able to see. And I think partly I mean, so I was homeschooled. I was homeschooled all the way from birth until I went to college.

00;17;43;28 - 00;18;12;11

Jeanne

And being homeschooled, a lot of people will think, okay, well, what about socialization? Who are you around? Are you ever seeing anyone outside of your family? And the answer is, yeah, you're around people all the time because there's networks of homeschooling families. But then of course, for some people, the experience is really different, because the quality of your education really depends on the choices your parents make and the resources they're able to provide and to connect you to as a kid.

00;18;13;08 - 00;19;05;26

Jeanne

And so when you're in that network of homeschooling families as a kid, the people you have access to make friends with are other homeschooled kids. And I think naturally you'll gravitate towards people who you can relate to. And so I think that, you know, homeschooling is this inherently politicized form of education. And if your parents include you in that part of your education, not just teaching you, but including you as an active participant and partner in the education process, you're going to be politicized from a really young age, like not politicized so much as a, as a figure, but activated politically because it's your life and the kids that you're going to find commonality with…

00;19;05;26 - 00;19;41;21

Jeanne

…are the other kids who are really activated politically through their homeschooling experience and activated intellectually and academically. And those are the people who get into politics at a young age. So I think it's just sort of a naturally occurring phenomenon for kids who are homeschooled, is that if you're in that potentially lucky, I don't know if that's always lucky for everyone, but if you're in that group of people who have that experience, you're going to find yourself in community with kids who have that same experience, and that can be really incredible, honestly.

00;19;42;15 - 00;19;56;02

Jeanne

But I don't think it's a universal experience for people my age or for people who were homeschooled when I was homeschooled, that they're all going to be fired up politically. I think it's just sort of a self-selecting process.

00;19;56;23 - 00;20;16;13

Geoff

So is it more the experience of homeschooling where you are more… and I've never been homeschooled, so I'm curious, is it more that you get to choose what you learn and you find those interests that really resonate with you? Or was it, did your parents decided homeschooling for a certain reason? I guess, what was the reason behind it? Usually it's a it's a tough thing for parents.

00;20;16;13 - 00;20;19;07

Geoff

I mean, I imagine it takes a huge toll to home school.

00;20;19;26 - 00;20;46;16

Jeanne

Well, it can be expensive. And I think that's something that's really important to note. Some families homeschool for very different reasons than other families do. And, you know, ultimately, I think my parents initially made the decision to homeschool with my oldest sister when she was maybe around four or five.

Geoff

That's very young.

Jeanne

And some of this is just sort of an accident of fate.

00;20;46;21 - 00;21;09;14

Jeanne

But she has a November birthday and she's also very, very, very bright and was very precocious when it came to things like reading. And so when she was very young, I think at least at the latest by the age of four, she was already reading very proficiently. And with the November birthday, she was going to be held back quite a bit to start kindergarten.

00;21;10;01 - 00;21;19;12

Jeanne

And my parents were like, but she already knows everything she's going to learn in kindergarten, and they won't even let her start yet. That doesn't work for us.

00;21;19;21 - 00;21;20;00

Geoff

Right.

00;21;20;14 - 00;21;40;13

Jeanne

They've told me that around this time — this was in Pennsylvania, I don't know if I mentioned that — but around that time, they they became aware of a group in Pennsylvania that provided resources for homeschooling families. And they said, oh, this is interesting, let's give it a try. And I guess they liked it, because they kept doing it for the next, I don't know, 20 years.

00;21;40;15 - 00;21;40;28

Geoff

Wow.

00;21;42;22 - 00;21;48;10

Geoff

So that's a lot, definitely, and I don't know, so, when did you, I guess, move from Pennsylvania to Arizona?

00;21;49;07 - 00;22;11;20

Jeanne

So it would have been just a couple years after that, when I was a baby, which means I don't have any of those Pennsylvania memories. But we did stay connected to that group in Pennsylvania, the homeschooling support group, because they have some great online resources and everything. But, you know, ultimately the legal reality of homeschooling in Pennsylvania is very different from the legal reality of homeschooling in Arizona.

00;22;12;16 - 00;22;38;02

Jeanne

And moving between those different worlds gets you thinking about the politics of your life in a really unique way, because it's not like you're being oppressed. I think there are people who will try to construe their experience as homeschoolers as some form of totalitarian state oppression. That's not what's happening. And so it's different than being someone who's oppressed by the state from an early age, and how that can influence a political journey.

00;22;38;10 - 00;22;52;10

Jeanne

It's just like, Oh, I have to think about the legal realities of my life in a unique way, and that's a different kind of political engagement. But it does happen pretty much right away if you're made aware of it.

00;22;52;10 - 00;23;09;23

Geoff

Right. So really it was I would say, you know, if I understand correctly, it shaped a lot of your childhood experiences, just the political I mean, not just political, but, you know, being able to learn on your own is much different than learning in a public school or even a charter school where you're around other students forced to learn the same thing at the same pace.

00;23;09;23 - 00;23;32;12

Jeanne

Yes, 100%. Absolutely different. I didn't learn things at the same pace as my sisters. I didn't learn the same things as my sisters, both of whom are older than me, because we're different people. And I think that was nice. It's not to say that it's the right path for everyone. I think far from it, but it's an experience that I think can be really interesting.

00;23;32;12 - 00;23;44;09

Jeanne

And obviously anyone's educational experience is going to really shape their life. And when you have a very nontraditional experience that's going to shape your life in a way that's unfamiliar to people who didn't have that experience.

00;23;44;25 - 00;23;51;07

Geoff

Now, are you still in touch with a lot of people that you homeschooled with? I know you had a group that you kind of worked with. Is that still part of your life now?

00;23;51;07 - 00;24;12;22

Jeanne

No, I'm not. I'm not in touch with any of those people, actually. Well, not really. There's, there's a couple of other people from that circle who have since come out and are also, you know, in a different place in their lives now. And I've been in touch with them a little bit, but it's not very frequent.

00;24;13;04 - 00;24;18;05

Jeanne

But yeah, every now and then I talk to people from that, from that world, I guess.

00;24;18;05 - 00;24;22;22

Geoff

Do you find that it's a different world. Or does your identity kind of change the…?

00;24;22;22 - 00;24;34;21

Jeanne

Oh it's a different world, yeah. From what I can tell, most people who are homeschooled experience dramatic changes in their lives when they stop being homeschooled. You know, if you're homeschooled all the way through high school and then you go off to college, or whatever.

00;24;35;02 - 00;24;35;18

Geoff

Like you did.

00;24;35;18 - 00;24;40;14

Jeanne

Like I did, that forces you to go through some really quick changes.

00;24;40;14 - 00;24;46;18

Geoff

Which it seems like you did well. I mean, you went to, I mean, you were driving to Tucson for people that you met from a different school.

00;24;46;18 - 00;25;09;22

Jeanne

Yeah for sure, and I mean, I did that because, you know, I didn't really have a lot of connections in town anymore. That was something that was exciting for me. But also it was like the thing I had, so of course I'm going to put a lot of energy into it. I don't think I handled the transition from pre-university to university very well at all.

00;25;09;22 - 00;25;32;04

Jeanne

And it's strange because I had been taking a lot of community college classes. I was basically a full time community college student in the last two years of high school. And then I went off to ASU and I figured, well, I'm fine academically. I know how college works. College is something that can feel similar to being homeschooled because it's sort of an a la carte education.

00;25;33;03 - 00;25;45;13

Jeanne

But then I got to ASU and it's 100 times bigger than the community college, and I wasn't prepared. It was the first time living away from home for me. I lived in the dorms my first year

00;25;45;13 - 00;25;47;29

Geoff

So you were in person?

00;25;48;06 - 00;25;56;07

Jeanne

Yeah, and it was just not something I think I could have been ready for. And it did not go super well.

00;25;57;10 - 00;26;04;22

Geoff

So now, were you out I suppose, say when you were in college, or was that something that you kind of progressed towards later on?

00;26;04;26 - 00;26;39;01

Jeanne

I came out in college. I didn't come out as trans until basically the very end of my time at ASU. So it wasn't a big thing about my experience in college. I wasn't connected to LGBT groups on campus. I didn't feel like I was connecting with other students as a queer person. I felt like actually very alienated from myself because I didn't know how to relate to people as the kind of person I was supposed to be at that time, right?

00;26;39;02 - 00;26;57;11

Jeanne

Theoretically straight and cis. I couldn't figure out how to relate to people on that level, and I hadn't figured things out yet for myself. And then when I did, it was just so late in my college experience that I didn't know how to get restarted. I didn't know how to reboot that for myself.

00;26;57;11 - 00;27;05;15

Geoff

Especially for the community there. You know, cause I imagine ASU has a large, I would assume, accepting community even for a red state.

00;27;05;15 - 00;27;32;20

Jeanne

Yeah, there were groups. I remember trying to look at like the club list and just feeling kind of overwhelmed. I didn't know what I would connect with. And honestly, I mean, this was right before the marriage equality decision. There were definitely groups there, but it's not the same kind of scene that it is now. You know, I think there's just more of a proliferation of different groups with different interests.

00;27;33;11 - 00;27;55;06

Jeanne

There's like an LGBT stem student group at ASU now. I went to the Rainbow Welcome the other day, and it was interesting because it was like, Oh, here's this alternate version of what I could have had. And it wasn't, it wasn't what I had. I could have! I could have just chosen that, but I didn't because I maybe wasn't ready yet.

00;27;55;06 - 00;27;55;20

Jeanne

I don't know.

00;27;56;08 - 00;28;08;28

Geoff

Well, I guess let me ask, what were you going to school for in college, you know, if that wasn't, you know, politics. That was at least part of your life. Was that something that you were interested in when you were going to school, or do you mind asking what, what did you actually go to school for?

00;28;09;18 - 00;28;33;15

Jeanne

Yeah, well, I was very interested in politics, and I think I took the stance that, I'm already doing communications, I'm already doing politics at a pseudo-professional level, not that I know everything, but I don't want to spend my time in college doing a communications degree or a poli-sci degree. I want to study something else. I thought I wanted to work in tech or as an engineer.

00;28;33;15 - 00;28;37;14

Geoff

As an engineer. So that's completely different from the advocacy work that you're doing right now.

00;28;37;14 - 00;29;10;04

Jeanne

Yeah. And so I started out pursuing an electrical engineering and computer science double major.

Geoff

Oh, wow.

Jeanne

I abandoned electrical engineering very quickly and was looking at computer science and math as a double major. And then I abandoned computer science and focused on math. And then I thought briefly, maybe I'll do a double major of math and economics, because that would appeal to the political side and the mathematics side in a really interesting way.

00;29;10;21 - 00;29;36;00

Jeanne

And looking back, that's the one thing I wish I had doubled down on, is the math and economics pairing. But the reality is I took my first macroeconomics course at ASU and I came out of that thinking like, This doesn't have any of the things I want from economics. It doesn't have a rigorous math foundation, and there's no actual examination of the political assumptions at the foundation of this.

00;29;36;10 - 00;30;06;16

Jeanne

So it just didn't have anything I wanted. It was just, memorize these formulas and apply them on a test. And so I looked at the major map for economics and said, it's going to take me two years to get to a class that sounds interesting? I don't want to do this. So then I was just a math major for a while, and then I added an English major and I added an anthropology major, and I had those three majors for a bit and I was going to be able to finish those…

00;30;06;16 - 00;30;33;06

Jeanne

…if I took like an extra semester. I had to take a semester off at one point. And then I just said, I'm tired, I'm not doing great as a person. I've just come through all of these different mental health traumas and identity traumas and community loss. And I don't want to spend more time in college. So I graduated with my math degree and just left.

00;30;33;26 - 00;30;45;28

Geoff

I see. Now, do you mind talking about kind of what you went through a little bit there? I know, maybe a lot of listeners or, you know, I mean, that's something a lot of people could probably relate to us, is you know, how did you go through that, or what help did you maybe find?

00;30;46;03 - 00;31;06;17

Jeanne

Well, and I was super open about it at the time. And I remember people saying, like, hey, this is cool that you're talking about it because a lot of people have this experience. So I'm always happy to talk about it, but I don't think I really fully understood it at the time. You know, some of it was me trying to figure out that I was queer and not wanting to figure it out initially.

00;31;06;27 - 00;31;08;13

Jeanne

Right? Because it's scary?

00;31;09;06 - 00;31;10;03

Geoff

Right. Arizona, too.

00;31;10;20 - 00;31;33;17

Jeanne

Yeah. And especially the part of Arizona that I was in socially, right. Not geographically, but just socially. And the other thing that I didn't realize until much, much more recently is that I think that was the beginning of well, I think that was the onset of bipolar symptoms for me, was right when I went to college, which is actually a really common age for that to happen.

00;31;33;23 - 00;32;02;01

Jeanne

And I didn't have all of the right diagnostic criteria to actually get a diagnosis of bipolar and get treatment for bipolar. And it wasn't until 2020 that I finally did get real treatment for bipolar. So that's about eight years where I was dealing with symptoms and not getting the right psychiatric care, before I actually finally did get the right treatment.

00;32;02;25 - 00;32;29;25

Jeanne

And during that time, you know, I was, I was diagnosed with a couple other things that are accurate. And I was able to get help for those. But the kind of underlying mood disorder that I had was mostly on unchecked for almost a decade, I guess, which is not great. That's very difficult to actually achieve all the things you want to achieve and engage with the things you want to engage with when that's the case.

00;32;30;17 - 00;32;53;25

Geoff

Especially you just left school, a homeschooling environment to a new environment with other students. You were also transitioning to what you actually are as a person, which is also a difficult time. Do you find that, I know I've heard the term before, masking. Was that what it was like, just a mental, you know, strain throughout that whole time.

00;32;53;25 - 00;33;01;17

Geoff

And how would you, you know, I guess what advice would you give maybe to your younger self? You know, during that time? Would you have changed anything?

00;33;02;10 - 00;33;29;10

Jeanne

Well, I would have changed things. But the problem is, I had the access to change things. I just wasn't ready for it. And so that's the problem is I, I did what I could do in the time I could do it. I made the decisions at the speed I could make the decisions. And so it's difficult. If I had gone back and told my younger self, this is what's going on, well, I think I kind of already knew.

00;33;30;03 - 00;34;09;20

Jeanne

And so being told it wouldn't have helped a whole lot for me to move through —

Jeanne and Geoff

[in unison] the process

Jeanne

— of actually accomplishing things. That being said, I think if I could have forced myself out of my shell a little bit to just be around other people more, that probably would have helped me on a lot of levels. I really only did that online, which was great for me and I learned a lot through that and I'm still connected to people that I found online, but it's not the same as like — knowing another trans person in person is a very different thing.

00;34;10;13 - 00;34;27;00

Jeanne

It's a very different thing. So I would have encouraged myself to get out more. At the same time, I was constantly telling myself I needed to do that anyway, and I wasn't doing that. So I don't think I, I don't think I'm any wiser now than I was then. And I don't think my advice would help me.

00;34;27;22 - 00;34;29;27

Geoff

But the journey still made you who you are today, which is…

00;34;29;27 - 00;34;30;11

Jeanne

Exactly

00;34;30;11 - 00;34;35;27

Geoff

I mean, if you wouldn't have went through it, you maybe you wouldn't be doing the same advocacy work that you're doing now either. So, I mean.

00;34;35;27 - 00;34;38;00

Jeanne

No, if I hadn't gone through that process, I mean.

00;34;38;07 - 00;34;40;18

Geoff

You'd be a triple major in economics and…

00;34;41;17 - 00;35;04;16

Jeanne

No, but I mean, that was the process. Like I, I wasn't going to get that triple major. I wasn't going to get any of it. I was going to probably just crash and burn. I don't think there was a good outcome besides the outcome I pursued, even though it wasn't everything I could have wanted. I don't think there was really another thing that was going to work other than what did work.

00;35;04;19 - 00;35;12;11

Geoff

Now do you have more community now in the trans community or LGBTQ, I mean, your whole, where you work is, you know.

00;35;12;11 - 00;35;13;10

Jeanne

Yeah, exactly, it's kind of my professional life

00;35;13;10 - 00;35;19;02

Geoff

You know, maybe they kind of combined to help both you and you're helping them too, or I guess, how do you see that work?

00;35;19;07 - 00;35;40;00

Jeanne

I mean, I'd like to think that's the case. Ultimately, a lot of people I know, I just know through work, and I enjoy that. I get to meet so many cool people through work and it's the best part of my job. But you know, even personally, I'm connected to more people than I ever have been, and I mean connected to more trans people and queer people than I ever have been.

00;35;40;20 - 00;35;53;06

Jeanne

I met my best friend, actually, the day I started hormones. They're also trans. And that's been just kind of my closest and best relationship for the past four and a half years.

00;35;53;06 - 00;35;54;09

Geoff

And that's when you started transitioning?

00;35;54;09 - 00;36;24;19

Jeanne

And that's when I started hormones, back in 2018.

Geoff

Wow.

Jeanne

And that's kind of a magical coincidence. But, you know, since I started hormones, I have been getting more and more connected to more and more trans people. And it's really probably the best thing about transition is to be able to be in community with the people you want to be in community with, not just the personal experience of being able to express yourself.

00;36;24;19 - 00;36;29;16

Jeanne

I think the relational aspect is really sometimes the most rewarding part.

00;36;29;27 - 00;36;47;10

Geoff

I think we all need those connections. I mean, people that are going to accept us for who we are, and that's usually what everybody's kind of looking for. You know, so I mean, you know, it's good that you're finding that. Are you, do you find that you are now, you know, seen more as maybe a mentor friend or are you a mentee from somebody else?

00;36;47;10 - 00;37;05;11

Geoff

I mean, how does that usually work? Because it's a huge step in anyone's life, you know, I mean, just going from a child to adult. But for you, you've taken a whole different approach to it, I guess. Do you have, you know, that kind of support or, you know, are you doing it on your own? How does that look?

00;37;07;09 - 00;37;08;29

Jeanne

Support for… for what?

00;37;09;06 - 00;37;16;06

Geoff

Just being a part of the community, the trans community. I mean, do you have trans people that you're kind of helping along the way or are there others that are helping you along the way?

00;37;16;15 - 00;37;46;28

Jeanne

That's definitely something that happens in like very rapid micro generations of trans people. As soon as you know how to get access to hormones, other trans people trying to figure out how to get access to hormones are going to turn to you to get help. The way a lot of the medical system has been set up around trans care means that there is just not a good diffusion of resources out into the general public.

00;37;47;15 - 00;38;16;15

Jeanne

And it becomes this like system of knowledge dispersal that's just kind of wild. If you really step back and think about it, where it's like, Ah, I found this provider, I found this doctor who's cool, I'm going to send you to that doctor. It's strange and there can be a lot of turnover in the field and really a lot of that's changing just just very recently, I think.

00;38;17;06 - 00;38;46;27

Jeanne

And as a consequence, maybe coming under a lot of political scrutiny. And so that's unfortunate. But it's definitely the case where very early on I had trans people who would help me with things like, Hey, here's the form you need to fill out with the county recorder to get your name change. And not just like, here's the form you need to fill out, but here's the sequence of events, because when you change your name, there's not like one place you go to.

00;38;47;20 - 00;39;18;12

Jeanne

You have to change your name separately with the Motor Vehicle Division. You have to change your name separately with Social Security, on your passport, with the county, and so it's a sequence of you need this one changed to change this one, to change this one. If you want to change your birth certificate, that might mean calling someone in a different state who's never talked to a trans person about changing their birth certificate before.

00;39;18;18 - 00;39;45;21

Jeanne

Most of the people in the system that I talked to are very helpful, but they don't always know their own policies because it's not that common to have to do. And so you have to call people and tell them, here's the form you need to get. And the only way I knew that was through other trans people who had already done it or could at least help me figure it out.

00;39;46;07 - 00;39;51;02

Geoff

Since there's not really a centralized location for everybody to go to and kind of access this information.

00;39;51;02 - 00;40;15;20

Jeanne

Yeah, there's not a real centralized location that can be all encompassing because it's so micro for a lot of things like especially health care. There's a couple of things that try to be centralized resources. So there's a good name change guide online that covers kind of state by state, Here's what you need to go through to change your name.

00;40;16;10 - 00;40;36;14

Jeanne

There's a map of informed consent clinics for HRT that's meant to be a national map that people can contribute to. But it's not comprehensive. I mean, I look at it sometimes and I can say, yeah, this doesn't actually cover everything, unfortunately, because you really can't make a comprehensive resource.

00;40;36;14 - 00;40;37;20

Geoff

For everybody's situation.

00;40;37;20 - 00;40;47;10

Jeanne

And it comes down to like sometimes being able to talk to someone who can say, oh, you have this insurance, here's a provider I can recommend.

00;40;47;10 - 00;41;05;28

Geoff

I see. Well, that also brings us up to what's coming up soon. And I know a lot of trans care is on the ballot basically right now. How is that impacting either you or even people you know? I mean, November 8th just feels stressful for me. And that's just as a gay, white, you know, I mean so.

00;41;06;02 - 00;41;21;09

Geoff

As anybody else, especially with the vilification of so many in our community, how do you see, you know, what you're doing now or the work you're doing now? You know, maybe progressing, especially after the eighth or beyond. Do you see any change or anything that you have planned or that you like to do?

00;41;22;03 - 00;41;45;02

Jeanne

Well, I think it's really challenging because there's really no status quo that's going be preserved no matter what the outcome of the election is. If we have exactly the same balance in the House and the Senate and a governor from the same party that we had the past two years, if we have that next year, it won't be the same as it's been the past two years because it's just literally different people.

00;41;45;02 - 00;42;02;26

Jeanne

Looking at like the party numbers or the party affiliation of the governor isn't enough. And that's really concerning because we've seen just every single year more and more legislation targeting queer people and especially trans kids.

00;42;03;02 - 00;42;12;09

Geoff

In medical care. That's when, you know, I was thinking about that when you brought medical care. I mean, you just navigate on your own is hard. They keep putting more roadblocks, you know, how do you.

00;42;12;27 - 00;42;42;15

Jeanne

Yeah, and that's a real concern. They tried to pass a few different laws this session that would have, you know, variously banned gender affirming care for people under 18, including therapy and puberty blockers, or even criminalized it or classified it as abuse. And one of those bills actually wasn't just about kids. It was also about people classified as vulnerable adults, which really just means adults with certain kinds of disabilities.

00;42;42;27 - 00;42;55;02

Jeanne

So not only limiting the autonomy of kids to make their own decisions, but adults with disabilities saying, Hey, oh, you've got a disability, well, we know better than you. You can't really be trans.

00;42;55;12 - 00;42;55;21

Geoff

Right.

00;42;56;16 - 00;43;23;18

Jeanne

And if anyone helps you to be trans, that's abuse and they're going to jail. So that's, I think, probably the start of what could be a trend. And we've seen nationally of people not just trying to ban transition care or gender affirming care for kids under the age of 18 — who aren't all kids, I mean — but people under the age of 18.

00;43;24;19 - 00;43;54;18

Jeanne

But actually quite a lot of people who are just adults. And I think it's a real thing we have to face that people might just try to ban gender affirming care in general for trans people. And that's terrifying. And it's a real thing that could happen next year in Arizona. You never know. And so it's really concerning looking ahead to see what we might be dealing with, but that might not be what we're dealing with.

00;43;55;23 - 00;44;29;07

Jeanne

If one of the chambers of the legislature shifts to have —

Geoff

This is national or…?

Jeanne

In Arizona, if one of them shifts in Arizona to have more of an LGBTQ supportive majority, even just one chamber of the legislature would change the entire reality of how LGBT policy works and really how most policy and lawmaking works in Arizona. If you have to pass things always on a bipartisan basis, that really changes the game in the state capitol.

00;44;30;08 - 00;44;54;28

Jeanne

If we have a governor who's an LGBT ally, that really changes the game because it doesn't matter what the legislature passes, they could just criminalize being gay in public, and if the governor isn't into that, it won't become a law. But we can have a really supportive legislature and a governor who decides to use the power of state agencies to make de facto laws.

00;44;56;10 - 00;45;30;03

Jeanne

If she can't get the…

Geoff

By executive…

Jeanne

Yeah. If she can't get the legislature to do it, because we've seen that happen with like Greg Abbott and Ron DeSantis where they just direct their state agencies to implement policies that aren't part of the law. There's a lot that could happen good and bad, next year and the year after that, leading up until 2024, which will be a very consequential election again. It's like the stakes just keep getting higher for politics.

00;45;30;28 - 00;46;01;28

Jeanne

And it's exhausting because there's actually just still very nuanced, small level political things that we have to engage with. And sometimes the, the noise of the conversation gets so loud that we can't even focus on the real things that are happening. It's just all, Here's this fake thing to be angry about. And then we're the people who suffer because of that and we have to try to find a way to push back on that, but also to bring down the temperature of the conversation.

00;46;02;18 - 00;46;08;04

Jeanne

And that's just a huge challenge, I think. And something that we always have to keep working on.

00;46;08;21 - 00;46;25;22

Geoff

Well, I know, especially in your role right now, you were, I mean, you are also a community director, but you're I mean, you're in charge of basically Equality Arizona's, you know what they say, you know, or, you know, you're trying to communicate your message out, you know, and things might especially change now that Twitter's changed owners, too.

00;46;25;22 - 00;46;44;27

Geoff

So that could also impact. So I guess, you know, I'm curious to see, how do you see your role moving forward, you know, trying to change that narrative, trying to, you know, communicate, you know, your message or the message you want to convey to Arizonans, you know, or even, you know, nationally. You know it's, you're in an important role, I guess.

00;46;44;27 - 00;46;46;27

Geoff

How do you see that, you know, taking shape?

00;46;47;08 - 00;46;54;23

Jeanne

Well, I don't want to talk too much about Twitter and Elon Musk. I mean, I do want to and I want to save time by not doing it.

00;46;54;23 - 00;46;55;16

Geoff

I don't blame you.

00;46;55;20 - 00;47;07;02

Jeanne

He said something really interesting about trying to prioritize enjoyment over engagement. And I think that one of the worst trends in social media has been the pursuit of engagement.

00;47;07;21 - 00;47;09;12

Geoff

That's the temperature you were talking about.

00;47;10;27 - 00;47;19;01

Jeanne

Yeah. There's a really fun quote. I think Kara Swisher maybe came up with, that's just enragement equals engagement.

00;47;19;23 - 00;47;20;10

Geoff

That is true.

00;47;20;10 - 00;47;52;08

Jeanne

And that's 100% what we've seen over the past decade on Facebook especially, but on Twitter certainly. And the reality is that moving past the really exciting political moment of Occupy Wall Street and the Arab Spring, moving even just maybe a year or two after that, social media stopped being a place where real communication was happening. It's a place where a lot of interesting ideas are put out into the world.

00;47;52;19 - 00;48;15;06

Jeanne

But it's not a place where I think real communication is happening in the same way because there isn't a real shared context anymore with the way the feeds work and the way certain activities are incentivized and all of that. So it's really discouraging. But when I think about communication, yeah, you have to put stuff on social media, you have to be there.

00;48;16;08 - 00;48;34;17

Jeanne

But that's not where communication is happening and communication happens I think at this point, mostly just in person with people, and that changes how you have to think about the strategy. It can't just be digital organizing. It can't just be sending texts to voters, that we all hate, right?

00;48;34;23 - 00;48;36;28

Geoff

So community. So you're looking to community.

00;48;36;28 - 00;49;00;10

Jeanne

Actual community building, actual basebuilding and organizing, actually finding real ways be around people, right. You have to think about it the same way you would when you're making a new friend. When do you choose to interact with them? On what level? Right? You don't just automatically start spamming them about things you want them to do. Hey, can you give me 20 bucks? I just met you.

00;49;00;10 - 00;49;19;14

Jeanne

Right, like that's not really how it works to interact with people in your social life. And it can't be how it works to interact with people politically either. So we have to create spaces for real conversation and real community in order to have that real communication and messaging succeed.

00;49;20;04 - 00;49;35;21

Geoff

Well and I know a lot of what you do through Equality Arizona is community; so there's you know events that you hold. You know people can be a part of a talk. Did you find those are more engaging? Do you find that is helping maybe with voter turnout or just a conversation as a whole? How do you view those events?

00;49;36;04 - 00;49;57;25

Jeanne

You know, I think that whenever we do something as an organization I want it to be valuable in and of itself. I don't want to create things that exist just to further something else, right. So when we create those community spaces and events, I want that to specifically be valuable for people and not something that can flip them…

00;49;57;25 - 00;49;58;07

Geoff

Not an alternate agenda.

00;49;58;21 - 00;50;26;23

Jeanne

…to the next level of the sales pipeline, right? And so it's challenging because I think you have to set expectations really well of, hey, here's what we're actually here for. We're here for you. And getting people to come to events post COVID is an interesting challenge because on the one hand, there's a lot of demand for it, but on the other hand, people are very selective, right?

00;50;27;08 - 00;50;54;16

Jeanne

Because they know that, you know, they have real options. And there's also the really compelling option of staying at home, because we've all learned how to do that really well. And yeah, it takes some real, I think, design thinking to figure out the right way to do that. I think sometimes maybe what we need to be doing is going to where people already are instead of trying to bring them to us.

00;50;55;23 - 00;51;17;20

Jeanne

And I think when we do try to bring people to us, we need to offer them ownership over the experience. We need to offer them something real. And we're definitely always trying to improve our programing and to make sure that if we're asking people to come to something, it's something that shouldn't be a hard sell, right? It should be pretty automatically compelling.

00;51;19;06 - 00;51;41;11

Geoff

And for you personally, I know you come to a lot of the events, but do you also, I guess, outside of Equality Arizona, what is your motivation? I mean, you know, maybe it's not always work. Maybe it is always work. How do you view that? You know, especially in the community, you're now a face of, you know, an organization that's been around for, you know, 30 plus years, you know, that's not always the easiest thing.

00;51;41;11 - 00;51;44;25

Geoff

You know, how do you view your role, I suppose, within the community at large?

00;51;45;11 - 00;51;58;24

Jeanne

Oh, yeah. I'm the face of an organization that's two years older than I am. And I don't have a real issue with being a face. I think that…

00;51;58;24 - 00;52;01;11

Geoff

Do you feel the pressure? I suppose, or I guess.

00;52;02;03 - 00;52;24;09

Jeanne

I feel the pressure. But honestly, I think the right way to respond to the pressure is to not buy into the pressure, that if I can be less worried about how I'm a face, right, if I can be less worried about how people perceive me, that means I'm actually going to do a better job at being the public face of the organization.

00;52;24;09 - 00;53;01;01

Jeanne

Right? If it's not about being me and, I need to keep up my appearances, but just, yeah, I'm here. I'm a real person that people can talk to and get coffee with. And if they have a problem with, hopefully they can just come to me and say, Oh, here's the problem, because it actually happens quite a bit. And what's been amazing recently is that when people reach out and they say, Hey, here's this thing where I think you're not giving out enough value, half those people are saying either, I get it that you can't do everything, or, can I help you do it?

00;53;01;02 - 00;53;26;24

Jeanne

We've had some really amazing people reach out and say, Hey, you don't have enough guidance on the judicial picks on the website. And then they'll say, I'm doing this research anyway, can we collaborate on it? And it's like, Oh, sweet. Yes, of course, it's amazing. And so being the face of the organization means hopefully that I can make the organization more personal and more accessible.

00;53;26;24 - 00;53;39;29

Geoff

And I do feel like you've really expanded the organization, you know, compared to what I mean, I personally had never heard of it and I've been in Arizona for 12 years, you know, so it really has, you know, I think changed a lot, you know, from what I can tell, you know, it's…

00;53;40;09 - 00;53;55;26

Jeanne

Yeah, we're an organization that's gone through a lot of change in its 30 years of life, definitely multiple fallow periods where we've just been kind of dormant. And I'm hoping that this new era can be our best yet.

00;53;55;26 - 00;54;13;06

Geoff

Let me ask before you know, we're running out of time, it's getting pretty close, you know, what would you like to impart, I suppose, you know, maybe not even to the community at large, but just to yourself, you how would you talk to yourself? You know, as you know, this is what I want to do going forward or this is what I'm doing now and I love it.

00;54;13;06 - 00;54;37;29

Jeanne

I mean, I do love this. I think the key thing is that for this to work, I need people to buy into it, right? And if people are going to buy into it, it needs to be worthy of their time or their money or whatever it is. And that, that's definitely a big burden of responsibility, I think. It's not easy.

00;54;37;29 - 00;54;53;11

Jeanne

I don't think you can take any engagement from anyone for granted, right? People who are giving you their time or their money or their insight are doing something they absolutely have no obligation to do.

00;54;53;19 - 00;54;53;29

Geoff

Right.

00;54;54;10 - 00;55;17;03

Jeanne

And if they're doing that, it's incredible. And I really have to think, well, why? Why — what am I doing that lives up to this? Right? Even just getting one email from someone who says, like, I want to help you out with this thing. It's like, oh, my God, what, what? What can I do to actually be worthy of this? Right?

00;55;17;03 - 00;55;49;03

Jeanne

And thinking about, you know, where I want to go, I want more people to feel like that is worth their time or their knowledge or their money to do. Because I think we can do really interesting things and it's sort of a virtuous cycle. If we're doing really interesting valuable things, people will buy in, and the more people buy in, the more we can do.

00;55;49;22 - 00;56;15;10

Jeanne

I think that being an LGBTQ+ rights organization that's focused on actually building the political power of LGBT people is a good business model, not in terms of making money, but in terms of building a sustainable organization that can be really effective. The more we build people up, the more they can build us up. And that's where I want to focus.

00;56;16;13 - 00;56;30;29

Geoff

Well Jeanne, I definitely want to thank you for taking the time to be on the other side of the mic. Equality Arizona, of course, can be found online. You have all the socials, right. And then upcoming events. Any upcoming event you want to speak about before we go?

00;56;31;12 - 00;56;54;25

Jeanne

Well, I don't know when I'm going to publish this yet. I'm probably going to bury it on like Christmas week or something. [both laugh] So, you know, assuming I don't publish this right away, what we're looking at coming up soon is that after the elections, there's a couple of months until the state legislative session starts

Geoff

In January.

Jeanne

In January, near the beginning of January.

00;56;54;25 - 00;57;18;23

Jeanne

And when that happens, it's going to be all hands on deck. And so we're going to have some events and planning sessions and stuff leading up to that to really make it clear what you can do and how you can be a part of that work and why it's interesting and exciting and engaging and important to be a part of that work.

00;57;18;23 - 00;57;51;03

Jeanne

We're starting kind of a new monthly thing that's just like a civic advocacy jam, like a games jam, where it's not just about us telling you what's important and how to talk about it. It's you coming in and then going through a process of interpreting the systems in terms of design choices, identifying where those decisions are being made, and then intervening in that decision making process with real solutions.

00;57;51;24 - 00;58;12;16

Jeanne

So that's something that we're going to be doing on kind of a regular basis that I'm really excited about. And that'll start in November, November 19th, maybe when this comes out, it's already been November 19th, so there'll be one in December also and then into January we might have to do those more often because of the the nature of the legislative session.

00;58;12;16 - 00;58;14;14

Geoff

Giving people the tools they need really.

00;58;14;14 - 00;58;44;21

Jeanne

Yeah, giving the people the tools they need and also helping people with whatever problems it is that they're experiencing in society, right. If they're running into some kind of friction or whatever trying to interact with the world. Well, the reality is none of that is default. All of that is because people made design decisions. And if you can interpret it that way and you can identify where those decisions are being made, then you can intervene with real solutions.

00;58;44;21 - 00;58;51;24

Jeanne

And I want to be the organization that can help people do all three of those alliterative steps that I've named.

00;58;52;25 - 00;59;07;04

Geoff

Alright, well Jeanne, you've been doing a great job so far. I know there's a lot on your plate and even more is coming up in the next couple of months. You can be found, of course, online, maybe at a coffee shop. I won't, I guess, say Brick Road usually?

00;59;07;04 - 00;59;18;13

Jeanne

Brick Road. I put it in my email thing that I sent out. Definitely, if you want to get coffee, Brick Road is a fun place to get coffee, but I'll also drive if you're in Tucson. We can get coffee in Tucson or something.

00;59;19;19 - 00;59;29;15

Geoff

Oh perfect. Well, Jeanne, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me today. We learned quite a lot about you. So I wish you the best luck and I cannot wait to volunteer more in the future.

00;59;30;06 - 00;59;30;19

Jeanne

Thank you.

00;59;30;24 - 00;59;37;09

Geoff

All right. Thanks.

On today’s episode of the Arizona Equals Conversation, Jeanne interviews Sonora Reyes, author of The Lesbiana’s Guide to Catholic School and finalist for the National Book Awards. They talk about the complex process of coming out, how writing fiction can be a way to process trauma, and whether the publishing industry is ready for the kind of characters Sonora wants to write.

Links & Context

* Sonora Reyes

* The Lesbiana’s Guide to Catholic School

* Preorder: The Luis Ortega Survival Club

* National Book Awards Finalists

* Brick Road Coffee

* Queerizona

* one•n•ten

* #actuallyautistic on Tumblr

Full Transcript

00;00;00;05 - 00;00;27;20

Jeanne

From Equality Arizona, you're listening to the Arizona Equals Conversation. I'm Jeanne Woodbury. I'm the interim executive director for Equality Arizona and the host of this podcast. Each week on the show, I interview a queer person about the map of their life and the paths they've taken through it. Today, I'm really excited to release this interview with National Book Award finalist Sonora Reyes, author of the Lesbiana's Guide to Catholic School.

00;00;28;19 - 00;00;49;21

Jeanne

I was actually introduced to Sonora through a previous guest on the podcast, Jesse, one of the co-owners of Brick Road Coffee in Tempe, and I love how that really captures the spirit of the show. You know, as we add more and more stories to the project, it's really rewarding to see how those stories connect to each other, and the picture that paints of Arizona.

00;00;50;25 - 00;01;14;01

Jeanne

I absolutely loved my time with Sonora and the conversation we got to have. We covered some really interesting topics, like online community, processing trauma through writing fiction, representations of autism, and I hope that you enjoy it as much as I did. But just like this conversation is mostly spoiler-free for Sonora's novel, I'm going to make this intro pretty much spoiler-free for the conversation.

00;01;14;18 - 00;01;29;16

Jeanne

So let's just jump into it.

00;01;33;21 - 00;01;44;03

Sonora

Okay, hi, I'm Sonora Reyes. I am an author, of the book The Lesbiana's Guide to Catholic School. I use they/them pronouns. Um, yeah!

00;01;45;02 - 00;01;54;12

Jeanne

Alright, thank you!

Sonora

Sorry that was a horrible introduction.

Jeanne

No, it's fantastic, it was fantastic.

Sonora

I'm so bad at intros. Like, what do I say?

00;01;55;11 - 00;02;00;02

Jeanne

Yeah, no, I always, um, I always struggle to know how to talk about myself.

00;02;00;03 - 00;02;01;15

Sonora

Yeah, it's hard.

00;02;02;12 - 00;02;08;27

Sonora

Which is silly because it's like, Oh, I have to do it all the time now. And I still haven't gotten the hang of it.

00;02;10;13 - 00;02;29;13

Jeanne

Well, so anyway, it's pretty informal, but thanks for sitting down with me and talking. I bought your book and I read your book and I really loved it.

Sonora

Aww.

Jeanne

It took me like 60 pages to really figure out where it was going. I was like, This is interesting. And then I got into it. I was like, Oh, this is actually really fascinating.

00;02;29;26 - 00;02;50;01

Jeanne

And one of the things that I wanted to ask you about is, you know, a lot of the book is about levels of being out and what it means to come out and what it's like to be outed. And kind of one of the central tensions, at least in the way I read the book, is between this character, Bo, who's out.

00;02;50;12 - 00;03;16;01

Jeanne

And then the main character, who is not out. And they go to the same school, and there's this tension of like, I'm only going to tell Bo that I'm gay. And I wondered, like, is this something that you have experience with? It's like, it's a really nuanced conversation about being out where it's like, Well, why wouldn't she just come out to this person and have this safe relationship?

00;03;16;07 - 00;03;22;23

Jeanne

And that's a big part of what the book is about.

Sonora

Yeah.

Jeanne

But I really found myself thinking, oh, this is this is unique. This is different.

00;03;23;01 - 00;03;53;06

Sonora

Yeah. And I think the reason why I chose to have Yami be so hesitant to come out is because I really wanted to tell a story where when she comes out, she's fully ready and she's fully, like, embraced herself by that point because the first time she came out, she wasn't. And, when she came out to Bianca and then Bianca outed her at her old school.

00;03;53;11 - 00;03;59;00

Sonora

So that's not really a spoiler; it's in like the first part of the book. The first page, I think.

00;03;59;08 - 00;04;00;19

Jeanne

I think so. Yeah.

00;04;01;28 - 00;04;32;26

Sonora

But so since she experienced that I wanted to give her kind of both, like, options. So she had her coming out experience taken from her. And then the next time she gets to take it into her own hands and do it the way she wants to do it in, even if she has this perfect situation where she, one of her best friends, is gay and out and, and her gay friends parents are very supportive of her friend.

00;04;33;11 - 00;05;06;02

Sonora

And so she knows that like her friend group would be supportive and she knows that like the same situation wouldn't happen again. But then, in my opinion, I don't think you need to have like a reason to not be ready, if that makes sense?

Jeanne

I agree, yeah.

Sonora

So, like, she just wasn't yet, and it just took a little bit for her to, like, she had to kind of dip her toes in a little bit and then find her groove and eventually figure out who she was and figure out when she was ready, so.

00;05;06;09 - 00;05;26;13

Jeanne

I remember at one point she's talking with another character — I don't want to spoil things, but there's another character who we find out is bisexual — and she's saying this thing where it's about, Look, I'm out to this person, I'm out to this person: just because I'm not, like, officially out to everyone. Does that mean I'm hiding?

00;05;26;28 - 00;05;45;24

Jeanne

And does it mean I'm not out unless I go to every single person and tell them one by one?

Sonora

Yeah. [laughs]

Jeanne

That, you know, I'm gay. And I feel like that's something I've heard a lot of people talk about in terms of being out. It's like, well you're constantly coming out. It's not like it becomes a, like a name tag that's stuck to you.

00;05;46;23 - 00;05;51;12

Jeanne

How do you think about that? Like in your own life, in terms of being out and —

00;05;51;18 - 00;05;58;16

Sonora

Yeah, so I think that I'm at the point where I'm very ready to be out like, you know, writing gay books and like —

00;05;58;16 - 00;06;01;16

Jeanne

Yeah.

00;06;01;16 - 00;06;31;06

Sonora

So I do whatever I can these days to like actually show people that I'm like, queer in some way. Like, you know, I cut my hair. I like, I don't know, I feel like I, I want to, like, wear clothes that make me feel comfortable. I want to, like, hang out in very queer spaces and just, like, be around people who I feel comfortable with and I kind of do —

00;06;31;07 - 00;06;52;11

Sonora

So there's conversation in the book where Bo is saying that like, she's like Schrodinger's gay, right? Where she like always has to scream about being gay and Chinese for anyone to like, actually see her. And I totally feel that, like, myself. Like I'm like, I feel like I just I, but I'm past the point of feeling like I have to,

00;06;52;11 - 00;06;54;06

Sonora

And I'm at the point now where I'm like, I want to.

00;06;54;17 - 00;06;55;02

Jeanne

Oh, yeah.

00;06;55;05 - 00;06;57;23

Sonora

You know, like, I'm just like, I'm just always shouting about it.

00;06;58;08 - 00;07;12;23

Sonora

Because I, like, feel ready to, but like, it took me a long time to get there and it took me like a really long time to feel like I was ready to, like, actually do it of my own volition instead of because I felt like I was supposed to, you know?

00;07;13;14 - 00;07;25;23

Jeanne

Right. And in the course of that journey, I mean, what was the thing, was it — you know, you mentioned spending time in really specifically queer spaces and around people. Is that what enabled that or was it just, time?

00;07;26;10 - 00;07;49;18

Sonora

I think just time because I was in kind of a unique situation where like I've talked about this before, where like I — so I wrote the Lesbiana's Guide to Catholic School. It's about a lesbian cis girl. I am not cis or a girl or a lesbian. And I used to wear that hat; like her experience is what I experienced in high school.

00;07;50;00 - 00;08;13;21

Sonora

So I still feel like that's my experience because I very much thought that that was me for a very long time. And so I have worn many hats in my life. And I think you're going to see like a lot of different books that like showcase those different experiences because I want to explore like all of who I am and who I was and who I have been.

00;08;14;15 - 00;08;17;22

Sonora

Just so you know, process some trauma.

00;08;19;09 - 00;08;30;14

Sonora

I feel like that's my brand now is just processing trauma through my books, but in a like hopeful way I hope — in a way that feels happy at the end.

00;08;30;27 - 00;08;50;13

Jeanne

Something I haven't gotten to talk about very much with other authors is — and you, you know, you bring up this idea of processing trauma through your books — there's a unique relationship, right, between like an author and a reader or the audience in general, where you can say these things and it's not like someone's looking at you while you're saying them.

00;08;51;00 - 00;09;10;20

Jeanne

But then at the same time, like, I bought your book on a shelf at Changing Hands and it had like a staff recommendation placard. So like a lot of people are reading these and if you put something like that in there, do you feel like it's communication and that's what's helpful in terms of processing or is it just, writing it down?

00;09;10;28 - 00;09;12;12

Jeanne

I guess maybe it could be both.

00;09;12;15 - 00;09;37;02

Sonora

I think both, but I think for me, like I can talk about it all day, but a lot of the time I don't fully process something until I put it in someone else's story so that I can process it without the fear of like anyone thinking, Oh, this is me or this is what I have to say. This is just like, somebody else.

00;09;38;05 - 00;10;02;20

Sonora

It's their story. And I can put as much of my own experience into it as I want and process it in ways that I don't even necessarily like — like I can make this character feel a way about it that I don't feel, and then I can change it and make them feel a different way, and make them feel a different way and process it through exploring like all the different outcomes that could have happened with a specific experience.

00;10;02;20 - 00;10;39;16

Sonora

So my next book comes out in May. It's called The Luis Ortega Survival Club, and it is about a girl named Ariana who — trigger warning for rape — she was taken advantage of at a party and she gets revenge on him with the help of an anonymous pen pal. And so that story is for me, it's, while I never was able to get revenge on anybody, but I processed my trauma through, like, a fantasy.

00;10;39;29 - 00;10;58;19

Sonora

You know what I mean? Where in this fantasy, the bad thing still happened, but it didn't stop her from winning in the end.

Jeanne

Yeah, that makes sense.

Sonora

So, like, I like to process my trauma in ways that feel hopeful in the end and that feel like the trauma still happens. The bad thing can still be there, and you can still experience it.

00;10;58;28 - 00;11;06;26

Sonora

But it doesn't stop you from like, having a fully happy ending, if that makes sense.

00;11;07;04 - 00;11;30;10

Jeanne

Well, and I think I see that in the book I read, you know, you start with this really difficult moment where she's lost her best friend and she's losing her whole community. She's going to somewhere where it's like this double edged sword of, while I can hide again, but also it's not going to be safe for me if I come out potentially.

00;11;30;10 - 00;11;49;29

Jeanne

So it's this, at the beginning it's this total point of trauma, I think. And then by the end, many, many things have been kind of transformed into something positive. And so I see what you're saying in terms of letting all those things actually exist in a real way, but then still giving that ending to the stories.

00;11;49;29 - 00;12;14;18

Sonora

Yeah. Because I feel like for some people, the fantasy is a life where the trauma never happened. But for me, that never felt plausible or anything like within my grasp. Like I could never picture myself, who, who I would be without any of that, because it affected me so deeply and I would love to picture that.

00;12;14;18 - 00;12;37;25

Sonora

And I feel like that is a fantasy that a lot of people need and it's great for it to exist. But I feel like my fantasy is for somebody who is traumatized to get to still win and to get to still have those hopeful, cheerful, joyful moments with their loved ones and themself and like still fully come into themself.

00;12;37;25 - 00;12;56;14

Jeanne

It reminds me of that hypothetical like thought thing of, you know, if you could go back into your life and change something, what would you change? And every time I try to think through that, I'm like, there's plenty of bad things that have happened. But, I don't know what it would mean to change those things. Is that kind of how you feel too?

00;12;56;25 - 00;13;28;03

Sonora

I have a lot of really mixed feelings about it, because I of course, like if I could take away a lot of my trauma, I would. But at the same time, I don't know what that would look like. I don't think I would be recognizable to myself. And that's not to say that like it should have happened, you know, because I don't think it's —

Jeanne

No, not at all.

Sonora

— it's, it's something that of course, I would I would hope for nothing like bad to happen to anyone ever. [laughs]

00;13;28;03 - 00;14;08;24

Sonora

I'm sorry if that was a really loud laugh.

Jeanne

No, it's okay.

Sonora

But I think sometimes it feels more productive for me personally to, instead of wishing that, because it's not something I can ever make happen. And yes, I can try and protect the people around me as much as I can, but I can't — like I can try to provide like a safe environment for everyone that's in my circle and I can be accepting of everyone but that I come into contact with and I can try to prevent like as much bad things from happening to the people around me as possible.

00;14;08;24 - 00;14;27;26

Sonora

But I can't take it away from anyone who's already experienced it. And I feel like it's nice to get to see people who've already experienced it also thriving in fiction, in my personal experience.

00;14;28;01 - 00;14;43;15

Jeanne

In fiction and in real life, too.

Sonora

Of course, yeah.

Jeanne

That's one of the great things about community, and queer community can be a great space for that. I was thinking, okay, going back, looking at our past, I wanted to ask, have you been in Arizona your whole life?

00;14;44;01 - 00;14;45;06

Sonora

Yeah, most of my life.

00;14;45;12 - 00;15;02;00

Jeanne

Okay, yeah. And this book is set in Arizona. And so whenever I, whenever I talk to someone who has grown up in Arizona and writes about like, school in Arizona, I'm always curious, like, what was that like for you? Did you go to a similar school?

Sonora

Yeah. [laughs]

Jeanne

Okay.

00;15;02;23 - 00;15;23;09

Sonora

I won't say the name of the school, but it's very thinly veiled. It's — if you know the school you — like, I'll, just to show you how much I didn't even try to hide what school I went to in this book, people came up to me at my book launch and were like, Did you go to like, blah-blah-blah-blah school?

00;15;24;18 - 00;15;29;06

Sonora

I was like [laughs nervously].

00;15;29;06 - 00;15;32;19

Sonora

That's kind of funny. So like, yeah, people knew.

00;15;33;09 - 00;15;33;19

Jeanne

Yeah.

00;15;34;05 - 00;15;38;02

Sonora

Like people who went to the school would recognize the school.

00;15;38;11 - 00;16;07;21

Jeanne

And I think, you know, in the, in the book, it's, it's pretty modern. It's a relatively contemporary setting. When you had to update that — I mean, there's there's a gay kid being very vocal in the classroom; I think, going back to when I was in high school, that would have been very different, I think — did you have to take some time to think through like, What was it like when I was a student, and what is it like for students now, and then factor that in?

00;16;08;14 - 00;16;25;10

Sonora

Um, so yeah I did. I do think that I — [laughs]. Okay so a lot of people think that I would have self-inserted myself into Yami's character? I kind of did it with Beau.

00;16;25;24 - 00;16;26;10

Jeanne

Oh yeah.

00;16;26;10 - 00;16;31;08

Sonora

So I was the kid that was like, Here's my presentation on abortion.

00;16;31;09 - 00;16;32;28

Jeanne

Oh so you really were doing that.

00;16;32;28 - 00;16;33;23

Sonora

Yeah, I was doing that.

00;16;33;23 - 00;16;34;18

Jeanne

Oh, I love that.

00;16;34;27 - 00;16;38;27

Sonora

Yeah. So I was very outspoken.

00;16;39;09 - 00;16;46;29

Sonora

Like I, I don't remember. [sighs] So I came out at some point when I went there, like I came out at church camp.

00;16;48;14 - 00;16;50;06

Sonora

I, I had to get it out of my —

Jeanne

Oh I gotta hear that story

00;16;50;07 - 00;16;50;27

Jeanne

Gotta hear that story.

00;16;50;27 - 00;16;54;17

Sonora

Do you want me to tell it like, here?

00;16;54;17 - 00;16;55;18

Jeanne

Yeah! Yeah.

00;16;56;12 - 00;17;26;26

Sonora

So yeah, it was at church camp and it was like, you know how they separate the girls and the boys and they give them their different lessons on gender and like how you're supposed to act. And so I was in the girl group and like, we had to learn about, you know, our role in a relationship with a man and like our role in society and all of that.

00;17;26;26 - 00;17;30;18

Sonora

And it was, you know, just toxic, toxic bullshit — oh, sorry, can I cuss?.

00;17;30;20 - 00;17;31;10

Jeanne

That's fine, yeah.

00;17;32;01 - 00;17;59;14

Sonora

It was super toxic, but because it was at church camp and because, you know, there is this feeling of camaraderie at like a camp like that when you're staying the night with these people and you're, like praying together and you're like experiencing this, oh, live music. It's so moving. And everyone's crying and and we're all, like, experiencing this together and like, all these emotions, like, it's a very emotional time.

00;17;59;24 - 00;18;22;22

Sonora

So I felt very close to these people, and we all went around in a circle and we were sharing our experience with — I don't remember what the prompt was, but it had to have been something like what's your experience with, you know, do you struggle with these gender roles, or something like that? And I was like — I like girls!

00;18;22;22 - 00;18;23;13

Jeanne

Like in a circle of people?

00;18;23;26 - 00;18;29;04

Sonora

Yeah, it was like all the girls in there. And it was just silence.

00;18;29;23 - 00;18;32;07

Sonora

Like, nobody said anything.

00;18;32;07 - 00;18;38;00

Sonora

Which was very awkward. But I did have a couple of people come out to me after that who were there, like

00;18;38;20 - 00;18;39;22

Jeanne

Oh yeah. Like at camp?

00;18;39;27 - 00;19;09;07

Sonora

Like secretly. Yeah, at camp. Like, so one of the counselors came up to me afterwards, like, called me aside, and was like, I'm also gay. And I was like, Oh! So yeah, that was an interesting experience. I would not recommend to ever come out during church camp, especially a church camp that is preaching the things that mine was. You know, if you have an accepting church, then that's a different story, sure. But mine was not.

00;19;09;07 - 00;19;35;03

Jeanne

I think those interactions are really interesting where you've come out and then all of a sudden people start to come out to you. Even people who are like authority figures and you're like, a kid. And those relationships sometimes end up being really interesting. Of like, we had whatever friendship we had before, and now I know this thing about you, but I have a very different relationship to it than you do because you've really only told me.

00;19;35;10 - 00;19;42;04

Jeanne

And I've just told everyone. How did that end up going? How did those things continue?

00;19;42;05 - 00;20;12;25

Sonora

We kept in touch for a while. I was probably 14 at the time and we kept in touch until like, we, I think we still have each other on Instagram. I felt grateful that she told me because I was feeling really alone. Like when it happened, cause I was feeling like, oh my gosh, like, why did I just do this?

00;20;14;03 - 00;20;35;02

Sonora

But I think it didn't surprise anyone because I also was like — it was before confession. I was like telling the priest, like, why should gay people have to confess being gay? And, you know, and I was like, it doesn't makes sense! I was like, Can you explain it to me? I think a lot of people were like, like looking at me, like, maybe?

00;20;35;02 - 00;20;37;25

Jeanne

There's something's going on here.

00;20;37;25 - 00;20;41;12

Sonora

Yeah, so I don't know that they were surprised, fully, but I don't think they were expecting me to say it out loud.

00;20;42;05 - 00;20;50;26

Jeanne

Yeah, no, that makes sense. I mean, even like confession in general, sometimes historically it's about confession to your peers instead of just —

00;20;50;27 - 00;20;51;09

Sonora

Yeah.

00;20;51;24 - 00;21;22;00

Jeanne

In confidence. So that's essentially what you're doing. But yeah, those relationships are so interesting. I also came out in a church setting.

Sonora

Oh, really?

Jeanne

Not like at church, but very publicly to people in my church and had those interactions of like, Oh, here's this person who is like a mentor, and now they're coming out to me and here's just like kind of a just a few, not a ton of people, but a few people coming out to me and then not actually being out afterward.

00;21;22;10 - 00;21;34;27

Sonora

Yeah.

Jeanne

And it really can be a special relationship, but it can also kind of hold you back in some ways because they're processing it in a really different way than than you are.

00;21;35;21 - 00;22;09;15

Sonora

For sure, yeah. And I think that what helped me then was I wasn't the only openly gay person at the school. There were — I was a freshman. There were two seniors who were together and I never met them. I never talked to them, but like they were my heroes. So like I had like kind of I don't know if I would call them role models, but like they were my like, I had them a little bit on a pedestal.

00;22;09;15 - 00;22;21;14

Sonora

Like, I was like, Oh, they're out there happy. Like, blah-blah-blah-blah, and then I had like other people who were like, so they were like ahead of me in my journey, right? Of coming out. And then there was people who were behind me like, who hadn't come out at church camp yet.

00;22;21;14 - 00;22;21;21

Jeanne

Yeah. [laughs]

00;22;23;09 - 00;22;43;11

Sonora

So yeah, I think it was important to me to be able to see that I wasn't the only one like in any time of that, even if it felt like I was, especially because there were none of my peers were. But. And I mean, I later found out some of them were like,

Jeanne

Of course.

Sonora

You know, of course.

00;22;43;12 - 00;22;50;04

Sonora

Like statistically speaking, it couldn't have just been me. Like it definitely is, um, there's going to be more.

00;22;50;13 - 00;22;50;19

Jeanne

Yeah.

00;22;50;28 - 00;22;51;25

Sonora

But yeah, so.

00;22;51;25 - 00;23;03;27

Jeanne

Did you find yourself turning into those role models for other people? Did you do that consciously? Like, I'm going to be very out as a way to kind of message to other people.

00;23;04;24 - 00;23;33;21

Sonora

So I don't think I, I — so I realized I kind of had like a bisexual awakening in high school, like, so I only went to Catholic school for my freshman year and then I, you know, had a lot of traumatic experiences and I begged my parents to send me to public school. They finally did. So then when I was in public school, I realized like, oh, I don't just like girls, like, you know.

00;23;33;21 - 00;23;52;22

Sonora

So I, then I kind of had like a little bit of a — it was, it was weird. I had like a big, like, I was very vocal about being queer. I didn't have the term queer at the time. I was just like, Oh, I'm gay or oh, I'm bi. And if I was dating a guy, I would say I was straight.

00;23;54;03 - 00;23;57;24

Sonora

But if I was dating a girl, I would say I was gay, which is not how it works

00;23;58;03 - 00;24;02;20

Jeanne

Not really.

Sonora

So I wish I could tell my past self like, don't do that.

00;24;03;03 - 00;24;08;04

Sonora

But like, I was just like, Oh, I am like, whoever I'm dating, that's my sexuality.

00;24;08;04 - 00;24;12;00

Jeanne\Sonora

Like, because I was very monogamous and like, very, like, you know, well I'm not anymore, but —

00;24;12;00 - 00;24;13;24

Jeanne

Oh right.

00;24;13;27 - 00;24;31;16

Sonora

So, like, I don't think I ever consciously tried to be a role model, but I know that I was to some people just because I would talk about it and I wasn't like shy about it and like people knew that I was queer. Like people who knew me knew. Like, if they didn't know me that well, they might not have known.

00;24;31;16 - 00;24;59;21

Sonora

But if they knew me, they probably knew. So, like, I think I had some people who like came out later in life or like who told me that like it was helpful, you know, to like, see somebody else, like, you know, talking about it even if, like, if I wasn't like out yet, it was like, oh, I'm just like a super enthusiastic ally.

00;24;59;29 - 00;25;05;13

Sonora

Like, yeah, you know, he ally-to-queer pipeline.

00;25;06;04 - 00;25;07;01

Jeanne

That's real.

00;25;07;01 - 00;25;09;06

Sonora

It is. [laughs] Yeah.

00;25;10;00 - 00;25;36;22

Jeanne

I really liked your reference earlier to the Schrodinger's gay thing that Bo says, and being really vocal because that's kind of the only way you have to potentially connect your experience to other people. I guess part of the experience for Bo is that she's adopted, so she doesn't have a real connection to other Chinese people. And I actually really loved the way you handled that whole thing with her parents.

00;25;36;22 - 00;26;04;00

Jeanne

But I feel like that can be a thing in general for people who aren't white the same way it can be for people who are queer, especially in a state like Arizona. I've talked to a couple Asian-American people on the podcast and they've spoken about like the way it can feel really alienating in Arizona just because of like the geography of Phoenix and the way things are separated.

00;26;04;00 - 00;26;16;22

Jeanne

And you can be isolated a lot of the time. Do you feel like you have those kinds of experiences too, of that kind of isolation? You did mention like you have these really queer specific spaces to hang out.

00;26;17;07 - 00;26;45;00

Sonora

Yeah, I feel like recently I have started to feel a lot less isolated just because I've started to really dive into like my heritage and my own like ancestral like practices and stuff like that. So I feel a lot less isolated, even if I'm the only one doing it that I know it's like [laughs]. So I had a psychic reading.

00;26;45;02 - 00;27;08;26

Sonora

It was like from a medium and they were like basically telling me that like my ancestors were there; they were like, Oh, they give you permission. Like you're allowed to — it's like you're not alone. You know what I mean? Like there's, they're there, like with you, experiencing this. And so that was very confirming for me to be told that like — and I know this is kind of off-topic.

00;27;09;09 - 00;27;25;12

Jeanne

Well no, I mean, it's amazing because I think a lot of the time when I think about, Okay am I alone, I think about, Am I around other people now? But that idea of, well, what you're saying, I think it's a really great way to feel not alone.

00;27;25;12 - 00;27;57;04

Sonora

Yeah, definitely. And I feel so much like healing through like my ancestors and through, like not even just ancestors, but the people that I know who have passed. Like, just, um, I recently got very into like, you know, I'm Mexican. So like we do celebrate Day of the Dead, but my family was never super into it because my grandma was very like, very Catholic and like very like traditional, like oh, demonic.

00;27;57;06 - 00;28;27;13

Sonora

You know, and so like I recently started like reconnecting with stuff like that. And I feel a lot more, I feel a lot closer to like my ancestors and the dead and like the people around me who are just there all the time that I can't see. I feel like they're there and I feel like they, you know, so at least culturally speaking, I feel very surrounded. At least now.

00;28;27;13 - 00;28;51;00

Sonora

I definitely felt very isolated growing up. And because like we're very like — I say, we're assimilated, like my family, like my parents speak Spanish, like my family all speak Spanish, my grandparents didn't speak any English — but at the same time, we were very assimilated in the sense of like, for example, if we're at a restaurant, and they get our order wrong.

00;28;51;00 - 00;29;04;00

Sonora

It's like, Oh, you cannot say anything. Like, You don't you don't make a scene. You don't, you don't cause trouble for people, you know. Like it's very much like, you have to stay in your lane kind of thing. Like.

00;29;04;21 - 00;29;07;23

Jeanne

So like hiding almost; not, not hiding, but.

00;29;07;23 - 00;29;21;25

Sonora

Almost, and it's like, oh, well, it was ingrained in me that like I think maybe I'm not supposed to be seen that much. And so I as a teenager, rebelled against that, like, Oh, everybody look at me! [laughs]

00;29;23;10 - 00;29;23;19

Sonora

But yeah so.

00;29;24;11 - 00;29;26;04

Jeanne

It's kind of the impulse of an author.

00;29;26;05 - 00;29;28;13

Sonora

Yeah, yeah.

00;29;30;00 - 00;29;33;04

Sonora

So I've definitely felt like both extremes of that.

00;29;33;17 - 00;29;50;02

Jeanne

That makes sense. What are some of the ways you have found queer community? I always will tell people like, it took me a while. I've lived here my whole life and I was still just like, okay, I'm out. Where is everyone? I don't know.

00;29;50;17 - 00;30;11;02

Sonora

Yeah, I think at first it was online. That was where I learned the words to describe myself. That was where I found other people like me who were like — the communities that I was in online, they were very, very queer. Like I would join spaces like that. Like in back then it was like Facebook groups, you know, like —

Jeanne

Oh, right.

00;30;11;03 - 00;30;35;19

Sonora

It was like queer feminists or like it was, it was like a lot of intersectional groups and like. So I knew a lot of queer people from that and a lot of activists. And so they gave me kind of the tools to figure out who I was and to say like — that was when I like figured out like, Oh, I am trans, I'm non-binary.

00;30;35;19 - 00;31;06;18

Sonora

Like, this makes sense. This fits more than like any other label that I've ever, like, found. I was like, Oh, there are words to describe this. Like, This is so cool. So online was definitely big. And then like, you know, Tumblr and Twitter, like, like I definitely found community there. And then like it wasn't until — I didn't really find, like I found like little, little communities of support in-person but not queer communities.

00;31;07;07 - 00;31;08;15

Jeanne

There's a distinction there, yeah.

00;31;08;17 - 00;31;26;06

Sonora

Yeah, yeah. Like I was in, you know, like I went to college town where like everyone there, like, got so close and really loved each other and stuff, you know? But it wasn't a queer community. It was like a community of people who were accepting, but it wasn't like the same as like being surrounded by other queer people.

00;31;26;06 - 00;31;46;01

Sonora

And like — so it wasn't until like in person, honestly, until very recently because I started going to Brick Road, which is a like queer owned coffee shop, for anyone who doesn't know. And like there's just like the flags everywhere. And like I started going like right before June, which was when they like put up all the flags.

00;31;46;01 - 00;31;47;02

Jeanne

That's when they really got into it.

00;31;47;02 - 00;32;06;08

Sonora

And then they had cookies with all the flags and everything. And I was like, Oh my God. Like, this is like the norm here. Like, this is really awesome. And so like, I found community there and then from there I found Queerizona, because they meet at Brick Road sometimes. And so I found that other group, and so.

00;32;06;22 - 00;32;11;08

Jeanne

I feel like that's all really East-Valley-centric.

00;32;11;08 - 00;32;11;22

Sonora

Yeah.

00;32;12;01 - 00;32;13;18

Jeanne

Have you been an East Valley person most of your life?

00;32;13;24 - 00;32;39;09

Sonora

I'm East Valley, yeah. So it's like where I am. So it's been really helpful to find that. And then I know one-n-ten is like for youth. So I kind of like started learning a little bit more about them and like, it's not my community but like I want to be like, you know, I used them as like my preorder incentive was like, you know, you buy a book, a dollar goes to one-n-ten, like that kind of thing.

00;32;39;09 - 00;32;47;18

Sonora

So it's just like there are things, there are communities out there and they're like everywhere, it's just hard to find if you don't already know where to look, which sucks.

00;32;48;15 - 00;32;48;25

Sonora

You know?

00;32;48;25 - 00;32;52;02

Jeanne

Yeah, it's true. It's not like the people don't exist.

00;32;52;03 - 00;32;52;15

Sonora

Yeah.

00;32;52;27 - 00;33;13;23

Jeanne

But it's, I think especially in the East Valley, it can be really hard to find. And for a lot of people I talk to, it's like, yeah, within the past year because of a group like Queerizona or because of just like a literal coffee shop, Brick Road. Like now there's this connection for people. And it's, it's really remarkable I think, that it can be that specific, but then really meaningful.

00;33;13;23 - 00;33;29;04

Jeanne

You know, before we wrap up, is there anything that you can share to like, promote your work? If people want to find your book, if people want to keep up to date with anything else coming out?

00;33;29;04 - 00;33;59;03

Sonora

Yeah. So I am, um, my website is sonorareyes.com. You can find pretty much everything on there. My book is sold — The Lesbiana's Guide to Catholic School is sold anywhere books are sold, so you can find it online anywhere or at Barnes & Noble and local bookstores, you can always request it there if it's not already there. And preorder my second book, which comes out in May.

00;33;59;03 - 00;34;22;13

Sonora

I'm super excited. I hope that you like it. And yeah, you can find me on: Twitter is SonoraReyes, Tumblr is Sonora-Reyes, Instagram is Sonora.Reyes, and so is TikTok. But I don't really use TikTok, so I don't know why I even mentioned that.

00;34;23;24 - 00;34;24;20

Sonora

I have like one video.

00;34;25;20 - 00;34;28;06

Jeanne

Oh my god, but you mentioned preorders for your book.

00;34;28;06 - 00;34;28;17

Sonora

Mm hmm.

00;34;29;11 - 00;34;37;21

Jeanne

I read the little description for your book. It sounds really fascinating. I mean, what you're telling me earlier — but it's about an autistic character.

00;34;37;21 - 00;34;38;05

Sonora

Mm hmm.

00;34;38;19 - 00;34;49;17

Jeanne

I'm autistic. And so I was like, ah this is interst—

Sonora

Me too!

Jeanne

Oh, cool. So is that why you decided to write an autistic character specifically? Also, it seems like the character is, um, nonverbal, is that —

00;34;49;26 - 00;35;13;19

Sonora

She has selective mutism, so she is semi-verbal. So at school she doesn't talk. And most people think she's completely nonverbal, but it's just, she just has selective mutism. She only talks when she feels fully comfortable and when she's not stressed out, which is like a — I don't want to say symptom — it is a trait of autism for some autistic people .

Jeanne

Yeah it can be.

00;35;14;09 - 00;35;42;06

Sonora

So like I wanted to write about that because I was selectively mute for a lot of my life until like middle-school, high-school-ish. But even in middle school it was like on and off and then in high school it was on and off, but yeah. So I wanted to write that experience. I wanted to like, I realized I was like, there are not a lot of books out there with like nonverbal or semi-verbal characters or even autistic characters in general.

00;35;42;20 - 00;36;11;02

Sonora

I did feel like I had to put myself into a little bit of a box with the Lesbiana's Guide just because I was like, I don't think people are ready for all of what I am. All my intersections in a character, and they're still not ready. And I one day would love to write a character who is, you know, autistic and Mexican and a quarter Chinese and walks with a cane and has schizoaffective disorder.

00;36;11;02 - 00;36;26;16

Sonora

So bipolar and schizophrenia and, did I already say autistic? And ADHD and everything that I have and everything that I am, I do not think publishing is ready for it. So I am slowly going to like trickle those things in one book at a time.

00;36;26;16 - 00;36;33;02

Jeanne

Well now I'm realizing you divided that up amongst

Sonora

Other characters

Jeanne

Most of the characters, yeah, in Lesbiana's Guide.

00;36;33;08 - 00;36;55;00

Sonora

Yeah, I do have other characters that I explore those things through. I just don't think publishing is going to accept a book with like all of that in one character, which is really sad because like people like that exist. Like I'm right here.

Jeanne

Exactly.

Sonora

But I am slowly trying to break that mold like one book at a time and see if they'll eventually just, they just won't even notice one day.

00;36;55;00 - 00;36;56;24

Sonora

They think it'll be all okay.

Jeanne

Eventually, yeah.

00;36;57;11 - 00;36;59;03

Sonora

Like, I'm ten books in and it's like, we're there.

00;36;59;06 - 00;37;08;11

Jeanne

And I think partly that's just escaping the trap of like Own Voices, like, it has to be representation. But you're just writing characters, it's not —

00;37;08;11 - 00;37;22;13

Sonora

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I would like to write a super, super, super intersectional character one day, but for now I have like characters where I explore like one or two things through each.

00;37;23;09 - 00;37;45;23

Jeanne

I'm really excited to read this. I mean, I record a podcast, I'm talking all the time. It's like my whole job basically, is to speak and communicate, but I do also have that experience sometimes, especially in really stressful situations where it's just gone, I don't have that anymore and I don't think people really understand what that's like at all.

00;37;45;23 - 00;37;55;05

Jeanne

I mean, I don't have a real full picture of it except from my own experience. But usually when it's discussed or when I try to Google things about it, it's parents —

00;37;55;05 - 00;37;56;28

Sonora

It usually is, yeah.

00;37;56;29 - 00;38;02;25

Jeanne

Talking about their kids, as you know, maybe not even really people. It just, here's this kid I have to take care of.

00;38;02;25 - 00;38;09;20

Sonora

Yeah, I found a lot of good stuff with the actually autistic hashtag on Tumblr specifically.

00;38;09;28 - 00;38;10;04

Jeanne

Yeah.

00;38;10;20 - 00;38;31;25

Sonora

Like I just, that's where I figured out I was autistic and it should have been so obvious, but it wasn't because my parents don't believe in or at least they didn't believe in like, you know, therapy or psychiatrists or anything like that when I was a kid. So I just never got diagnosed as a kid. Yeah. Sorry, I know we were trying to wrap up.

00;38;31;25 - 00;38;45;12

Jeanne

No no no. I mean, this is fascinating, but yeah, no, thanks for talking with me about that and talking about all these things with me

Sonora

Yeah, of course.

Jeanne

I think people just don't get to hear about the autistic experience from hashtag actually autistic people.

00;38;45;12 - 00;38;46;07

Sonora

Yeah. Yeah.

00;38;46;17 - 00;38;48;19

Jeanne

So I'm really glad we were able to talk about that.

00;38;49;28 - 00;38;57;25

Sonora

Yes! So hopefully, hopefully I can continue writing autistic characters. I do have other books that I plan to write with autistic characters too. So I'm like really excited.

00;38;58;02 - 00;39;02;12

Jeanne

Oh, that'll be great. Yeah, I'm excited. Well, thanks for talking with me and good luck with everything.

00;39;02;12 - 00;39;04;02

Sonora

Thank you so much.

00;39;04;02 - 00;39;26;00

Jeanne

Thanks again to Sonora for being my guest on the podcast. If you'd like to read their book, you can find it wherever books are sold. And if you'd like to listen to past episodes of the podcast, you can find the entire archive on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or our own website at EqualityArizona.org/Stories. And when you're there you can sign up to add your own story. I'd love to talk with you.

00;39;26;23 - 00;39;45;23

Jeanne

With the midterm elections behind us, it's time to start looking ahead to the 2023 legislative session. And if you want to get involved as an advocate, we have a meeting this Saturday at the Tempe Public Library. This is our first civic advocacy jam, which we're going to be doing monthly from now on.

00;39;46;15 - 00;39;58;28

Jeanne

This is a really important moment and we need you on our team, so I'd love to see you there. Thanks again for listening and I'll talk to you again next week.

As results continue to come in from yesterday’s election, we’ll have updates in this newsletter and on social media. While we wait to find out the future we can expect for our state, enjoy this interview with movement specialist MJ Jupitus about community care and the complex joy of gender affirming surgery.

Links & Context

* Queermvmt (MJ’s business)

* Movement Genius Top Surgery Recovery Support

* Brick Road Coffee

* Arizona Equals Jesse & Gabe

* Queer People Fit: South Mountain

Full Episode Transcript

00;00;00;15 - 00;00;30;02

Jeanne

From Equality Arizona, you're listening to the Arizona Equals Conversation. I'm Jeanne Woodbury. I'm the interim executive director at Equality Arizona and the host of this podcast. Each week on the show, I talk with a queer person living in Arizona about the map of their life. In this episode, talking with MJ, we actually ran into a literal mapping issue trying to meet up to record the conversation.

00;00;30;02 - 00;00;53;03

Jeanne

And I left a little bit of that in because it bridged nicely into the conversation. My guest today, MJ, is a fairly recent transplant to Arizona, but has been able to make some pretty great community ties in the year that they've lived here. You'll hear them mention their wife, Jess, a few times, who works at the Tempe Public Library.

00;00;53;17 - 00;01;16;29

Jeanne

We don't really include that context up front, so I felt like it'd be good to mention that here. MJ's own career as a queer movement specialist brought us to some really wonderful conversations about gender affirming surgery and the recovery process after that. This is an experience we were both able to talk about personally, and it was really meaningful for me to have that conversation.

00;01;18;02 - 00;01;47;17

Jeanne

I also felt like it was really interesting to talk with a British trans person to get their perspective on the political trajectory of their home country, which has unfortunately seen the rise of a pretty dangerous anti-trans movement. These people sometimes describe themselves as gender critical, but another term that's used frequently to describe them is TERF — T-E-R-F — which is short for transgender exclusionary radical feminist.

00;01;47;17 - 00;02;20;13

Jeanne

And we say that word without actually explaining it, so I'm including that explanation here, upfront. And for one final note before we start the episode, I ran into a few audio issues with this recording, and I've done my best to correct those, but it's not perfect. Also, this episode is being published the day after Election Day, but I'm recording this the Monday before, which means whenever you're listening to this, you definitely know more than I do right now.

00;02;21;17 - 00;02;54;29

Jeanne

You can find more up to date information from us on our website, social media, or through our newsletter: equalityarizona.substack.com, which is the same place we publish this podcast. And with that, let's get into the interview.

00;02;56;29 - 00;02;58;28

MJ

Hi, I'm MJ, my pronouns are they/them.

00;02;59;17 - 00;03;01;18

Jeanne

Thanks for meeting me. Thanks for being on the show today.

00;03;01;19 - 00;03;03;14

MJ

Of course Jeanne, I'm so sorry about the timing.

00;03;03;21 - 00;03;10;11

Jeanne

Oh, no worries at all. I think for whatever reason, the maps just don't work super well in this area.

00;03;10;12 - 00;03;19;16

MJ

Yeah, it sent me to, like I said, just past 22nd. Definitely, not here. [laughter] Not even on Camelback. I was on like Highland for a while as well.

00;03;19;20 - 00;03;21;04

Jeanne

Oh, my gosh. Wow.

00;03;21;04 - 00;03;23;03

MJ

And I was like, it definitely said Camelback. I’m not in the right place.

00;03;24;06 - 00;03;25;13

Jeanne

Do you live in this area?

00;03;25;18 - 00;03;41;28

MJ

Live in Tempe and have only lived in Tempe for a little while now. So I was explaining to them I don't even have the confidence to, like, drive around to try to figure it out. I’m just like, no, I'm just fully lost.

00;03;41;28 - 00;03;43;06

Jeanne

Yeah. So how long have you been in Tempe then?

00;03;43;06 - 00;03;46;23

MJ

Been in Tempe for I guess nearly a year now. But it still feels like months.

00;03;47;03 - 00;03;48;17

Jeanne

That's still really recent.

00;03;48;18 - 00;03;52;03

MJ

Yeah, yeah, but we moved here for Jess’s work with the library.

00;03;52;10 - 00;04;01;13

Jeanne

Okay, that makes sense. How did you feel about moving to Arizona? I think, you know, for a lot of people, unless they have a reason, maybe that's not their first inclination.

00;04;01;13 - 00;04;19;10

MJ

Yeah, definitely not my first choice. But like, so more than happy to, like, support Jess. This job has been phenomenal for her. She loves it. And Tempe itself as a city is lovely and nice and has its pros. But leaving California was hard.

00;04;19;22 - 00;04;29;22

Jeanne

Yeah, I think, you know, I love Tempe. I grew up in Tempe, but California has a lot more opportunity in a lot of cases depending on what you're trying to do.

00;04;29;23 - 00;04;30;10

MJ

Absolutely.

00;04;30;19 - 00;04;35;24

Jeanne

Leaving California for you, I imagine you had to leave some things behind. How long were you there for?

00;04;36;00 - 00;05;03;00

MJ

So I was in California, I think like 5 to 6 years. Like it kind of crossed that five-and-a-half-years line. So, yeah, I, so I originally got to California from England for school. To UC Davis for a year abroad. I was like, Oh, I very much want to live in California. I also met Jess, fell in love, had a great like long distance romance and agreed that I'd move to the States to live here. California here.

00;05;03;00 - 00;05;26;08

MJ

So, yeah, I was there for about five, six years. Yeah, I definitely left, you know, friends and community. In a way, I feel like I left also some resources as a queer trans person. But we have family here, Jess's family is here. And I'm starting to build community here with organizations like yours! So, it's working out.

00;05;26;19 - 00;05;31;17

Jeanne

What were some of those resources that you feel like you haven't been able to supplement here?

00;05;31;18 - 00;05;44;08

MJ

Absolutely. I feel like I guess I would call it like more convenient access to gender confirmation surgery. Like, I know it's available in Arizona, but it definitely felt like an easier process in California.

00;05;45;21 - 00;05;52;18

Jeanne

Can you walk me through what you're seeing as the difference between like, very easy in California, very obscure, maybe, in Arizona?

00;05;52;18 - 00;06;18;29

MJ

Absolutely. So I had surgery in California. That process was going to my doctor, explaining that that was the surgery that I needed, them referring me to a gender mental health specialist within that insurance. This is all within the insurance system of Kaiser. And then that therapist going, yes you have gender dysphoria, you need top surgery.

00;06;19;23 - 00;06;34;00

MJ

And then that was it. It was — there was only one surgeon in the area I was in; he then ended up moving.

Jeanne

Oh gosh.

MJ

And that was very unexpected. Well, pandemic happened. I should put that first.

00;06;34;03 - 00;06;37;05

Jeanne

So this is all during the pandemic or kind of overlapping the beginning?

00;06;37;05 - 00;06;42;00

MJ

The beginning of 2020, so January. My 2020 resolution was, I'm going to get top surgery.

00;06;42;01 - 00;06;42;25

Jeanne

Yeah.

00;06;42;25 - 00;07;13;27

MJ

And I started it in January. Got to meeting my surgeon I think in — it must have been before the lockdown but that also seems really quick. I do think it was before lockdown. And then the issue was that the waitlist got lengthened because everything locked down for that period of time. So I was supposed to have surgery in September of 2020, but because of everything, it got pushed back to more like November time.

00;07;14;05 - 00;07;14;17

Jeanne

Okay.

00;07;15;01 - 00;07;27;27

MJ

And my surgeon left the area in September. He did his last surgery and then was like, bye. I found out through a friend who, he had been their top surgeon. I never directly heard from the insurance.

00;07;27;27 - 00;07;28;29

Jeanne

You never got notified?

00;07;29;25 - 00;07;54;24

MJ

No. I will say that was not an ideal part of the insurance process but, everything else up until then — quick, efficient, great. And so then it was a waiting game. I'd call the insurance back regularly. Is there a surgeon? No? Okay. I'd call back like a couple weeks later. Is there a surgeon now? No? But I kept doing it until one day they called me and said there was a surgeon in Santa Rosa.

00;07;55;10 - 00;08;21;03

MJ

I got in contact with that department and they offered me a surgery in two weeks. So I went from like, I had about six months from from kind of early March to September plan, to nothing for the foreseeable future to, get it in two weeks. So I ended up having top surgery December of 2020. And then here I got a revision done here. Very common for top surgery.

Jeanne

Yeah, very common.

00;08;21;26 - 00;08;36;14

MJ

And so that process was not at all covered by insurance. So difference number one, they wouldn't cover it. Still a fairly quick process, but by no means accessible.

00;08;36;29 - 00;08;57;12

Jeanne

So I had surgery here in Arizona and what really resonated with me from your story is that very last minute the date fell through.

MJ

Yeah!

Jeanne

And, now what am I going to do? And what you're describing is that you were doing everything in network so they could refer you, they could connect you — still very unsettling and everything, but.

00;08;57;12 - 00;09;14;23

Jeanne

For me, it was like, Oh, I don't have all the letters I need. And most of the people who can do this aren't even, they don't even take insurance. I have to get a list from my surgeon of people who might be able to meet with me. And I have to do this in enough time so that it doesn't —

00;09;14;28 - 00;09;15;14

MJ

Expire.

00;09;15;17 - 00;09;19;07

Jeanne

Expire and everything.

MJ

It's ridiculous

Jeanne

Crazy situation.

00;09;19;07 - 00;09;21;09

MJ

Yeah. I'm sorry that happened. That's so stressful.

00;09;21;28 - 00;09;25;25

Jeanne

At least it wasn't during the pandemic!

00;09;25;25 - 00;09;44;19

MJ

Yeah, it worked out? No, it did work out. It was, actually they said, they were like, this ward was never used for any COVID situations. It was just shut down when it wasn't, when they weren't doing surgery. So they're like, it's strangely one of the safest wards we have for surgeries during the pandemic. And I was like, Great, fine,

Jeanne

Perfect.

MJ

Happy about it.

00;09;45;07 - 00;10;02;24

MJ

Yeah. Yep. No, it's — so it, I understand to a degree. I'm sure it's not people's fault, things fall through. I'm sure my surgeon left for a reason.

Jeanne

Sure.

MJ

But it, it feels personal. I don't know if yours felt personal, but I'm like this means everything to me and you've just taken it away.

00;10;02;25 - 00;10;23;07

Jeanne

It felt very, very personal. There was a unique situation in my case that made it feel even more personal. But, you know, something I wonder about is making a move like that during the pandemic. The pandemic changes how you relate to the place you're in, like so many people relocated because they realized, I can just do this job from a cheaper housing market.

00;10;23;07 - 00;10;26;08

Jeanne

Did you have any kind of similar experience to that?

00;10;27;16 - 00;10;56;10

MJ

Yeah, I think it was interesting because my wife, Jess, started looking for a new job pretty much like, then. Like, March 2020 a job had come up in San Diego that she was really interested in. She was like, How do you feel about Diego? And I was like, I feel like it's expensive. But through the entire — through all of 2020, until she got offered the job here in 2021.

00;10;57;06 - 00;11;21;01

MJ

Yeah, she was, she was looking for work. I think she felt she was done with that area of California and definitely looking for that next step in her career. And I don't by any means like resent her for that. She's brilliant what she does and deserves to be like top of it I think. But it was, it was strange to be, you know, shut at home.

00;11;21;01 - 00;11;30;28

MJ

A home that I was very happy and content in, on the verge of being ripped away from it. But during a time where everything was different anyway, so like.

00;11;31;17 - 00;11;32;08

Jeanne

Exactly.

00;11;32;08 - 00;11;39;19

MJ

It felt not as probably impactful if it had been without a pandemic. But then the pandemic stress on top of the potential move stress

00;11;40;02 - 00;11;40;18

Jeanne

Right.

00;11;41;18 - 00;11;52;13

MJ

I wouldn't want to put anyone else through that. But if anyone like decided to up and leave where they were for convenience, like, absolutely, like Arizona is so much cheaper than California.

00;11;54;04 - 00;12;06;27

Jeanne

It still is. Yeah. Despite — I think I read that Phoenix has had the most, the highest rate of inflation of any city in the country, which is still so much cheaper than California.

MJ

Still so much cheaper than California.

00;12;06;27 - 00;12;13;28

MJ

Yeah, it's challenging. You're like, That's not good. It's better than what I had before, so, it's a conflicting feeling there.

00;12;14;02 - 00;12;25;16

Jeanne

And so if you've been here for a little less than a year or about a year, I would assume that means probably a lot of the lockdown restrictions were mostly lifted when you first moved here.

00;12;25;19 - 00;12;27;05

MJ

Yeah.

00;12;27;05 - 00;12;31;20

Jeanne

What was that, what — I mean, was it different in California compared to Arizona around that time?

00;12;32;29 - 00;12;57;12

MJ

I think so. I also think I think a lot shifted in California, coincidentally, after we left as well. We came to Arizona — so, it was November of 2021 and no one was masking in stores. And that was weird for me because where we were at least inside, grocery shopping, majority of people were still wearing masks. So to come to this environment,

00;12;57;12 - 00;13;17;06

MJ

And like no one was, I was like, it's different. It's different, they have a different attitude to it. And I think only a couple of weeks, if not a month later, all mask mandates got dropped. So before it was people just not doing it. And then it was like, you have permission to not do it. And they were like, Great, we weren't doing it anyway.

00;13;17;07 - 00;13;18;06

Jeanne

Yeah, I was already doing that.

00;13;18;06 - 00;13;41;02

MJ

Yeah. Yeah. So it definitely like — it's challenging. I have a complicated relationship with California, in that I feel like: I loved it, I think I would move back if somebody gave a golden opportunity of like we've bought your house, your mortgage is covered, don't worry about the cost. I'd be like, great. I don't think it's as liberal haven as it is portrayed to be.

00;13;41;23 - 00;13;43;28

Jeanne

Yeah. I think that's probably true.

00;13;43;28 - 00;13;44;23

MJ

Right. So.

00;13;44;25 - 00;13;47;18

Jeanne

But of course, Arizona isn't very liberal.

00;13;47;23 - 00;13;47;29

MJ

No, no, very different

00;13;48;09 - 00;13;51;06

Jeanne

Although maybe it's the flip side. It's not as much of a conservative hellscape.

00;13;51;12 - 00;13;52;19

MJ

As people think.

00;13;52;19 - 00;13;52;28

Jeanne

As people think it is.

00;13;53;07 - 00;14;04;22

MJ

Yeah, absolutely. So, Tempe, come in to Phoenix and have been to Tucson. And at least those three areas I feel like have amazing resources that I didn't expect.

00;14;05;10 - 00;14;12;07

Jeanne

Yeah, well, Tucson is beautiful. And I think it also has one of the larger, more organized trans communities.

00;14;12;11 - 00;14;37;03

MJ

I've heard that, yeah, I have heard that. No, yeah, I really enjoyed Tucson. Yeah. Just in comparison. So we were in Sacramento, now in Tempe. Them as cities? Not that different politically — from my very, minuscule, not super involved perspectives, but you know Sacramento is the capital of California. You'd expect to be a bit more liberal than other parts.

00;14;37;03 - 00;14;44;17

MJ

But there were tons of non-liberal attitudes there as well.

00;14;44;17 - 00;14;51;24

Jeanne

And then coming here at that point in November of 2021, I guess the weather's nice, so that's not too much of a shock, right?

00;14;52;09 - 00;14;58;15

MJ

Yeah, the weather's lovely. But growing up in England, even having lived in California for five years, it's hot.

00;14;58;24 - 00;15;01;03

Jeanne

Yeah.

MJ

It's hot.

Jeanne

Oh, no no no, it's very bad.

00;15;01;09 - 00;15;13;26

MJ

So even the winter to me, like Arizona winter, at least this part of Arizona, winter is very much like gorgeous English summer.

00;15;13;26 - 00;15;14;29

Jeanne

Yes, that's what I've heard, yeah.

00;15;14;29 - 00;15;28;08

MJ

Yeah, so. So to me, everyone's like in coats and wrapped up and I'm like, I'm still quite hot. It's still, it's still very much shorts and t-shirt weather. But having just done summer here, that was a lot. That was the lot.

00;15;28;23 - 00;15;30;18

Jeanne

Was that a regret moment for you?

00;15;31;17 - 00;15;39;05

MJ

No, because we have air conditioning, thank Whoever is responsible for that. But yeah, god without that, like.

00;15;39;25 - 00;15;43;17

Jeanne

Oh, right. Yeah. It's really the only reason we can have a city here, is air conditioning.

00;15;44;05 - 00;15;56;06

MJ

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It, it is bafflingly hot to me. I mean, England had that heatwave for like two days this summer around these temperatures.

00;15;56;09 - 00;15;58;10

Jeanne

I remember seeing that in the news.

00;15;58;11 - 00;16;09;10

MJ

The country fell apart. We're not made for that kind of heat. So it's so interesting now to live where that heat is like the average, the norm. And then compare it to what I grew up in and just — so different.

00;16;09;25 - 00;16;28;27

Jeanne

Yeah. This is maybe a little far afield, but thinking about England, there's been a really kind of insurgent TERF movement there. Do you ever, does that enter into your life, in your experience? Is that something that you think about when you think about home?

00;16;29;22 - 00;16;49;21

MJ

Yeah, I definitely think the England I left is not the England of today, 100%. Jess and I have this conversation semi-regularly about — because I moved, I moved here officially like visa, green card, getting it all, very end of 2015. We all remember what happened in 2016.

00;16;49;23 - 00;16;50;10

Jeanne

Right, Brexit.

00;16;50;10 - 00;17;29;14

MJ

So — Brexit and Trump

Jeanne

And Trump.

MJ

So I think if Brexit hadn't happen, I think Jess and I would have had a serious conversation about moving to the UK instead.

Jeanne

That makes sense.

MJ

But Brexit did happen and England has tripled down on Brexit at every possible vote. I don't understand. I'm not — very against it, it's destroying the country. And so yeah, I have this really conflicting relationship now where I'm not patriotic in that way and especially not from an American standpoint, where it's a very big part of the American identity. It's not so much in, in at least my experience, I think.

00;17;29;29 - 00;18;03;20

MJ

But I'm definitely disappointed in my country as a whole. The politics that are like dominating the country and I definitely every now and again when I'm like, oh, would I move back? Would we move back? And I think in this current state, no, and I think there'd have to be a big political change for me to consider it again the way it maybe would again if Brexit and policies weren't happening

00;18;03;20 - 00;18;08;25

Jeanne

Yeah and it feels like those are related, the kind of isolationism and the transphobia and.

00;18;09;08 - 00;18;27;28

MJ

Yeah. 100%. It's similar: Brexit and Trump I feel gave voices like, yeah no you can say these things and hurt these people and do this. It's allowed. Here's a law to make it allowed. Aah! Ow! So yeah no absolutely I completely agree with you. I think that they're linked.

00;18;28;28 - 00;18;46;25

Jeanne

That's not an experience I really can relate to very much because I've been in Arizona my whole life. So there's no like, is Arizona? Cause there's nowhere to go back to. It's just here. And I've traveled a lot and I've thought, oh, could I live here? Could I live there? And maybe. But partly it's like, is it better anywhere else?

00;18;46;25 - 00;19;08;12

Jeanne

Like, what's going to make the difference for me as a trans person with the way things are headed, kind of just on a broad cultural level. I think, you know, another experience I had, despite the fact that I've lived here my whole life, is that when I started to figure out my gender stuff and that I was queer, I did not know where the community was.

00;19;08;27 - 00;19;24;19

Jeanne

I just did not know where to find that. I grew up in Tempe, not in like downtown Tempe. And I think partly just it wasn't actually around me. I had to seek it out. Did it take you time to find that here or were you able to find that faster?

00;19;25;01 - 00;20;12;27

MJ

I was able to find that faster for one reason, and one reason only. We know them, we love them: Brick Road Coffee. Without Brick Road — I tell Gabe and Jesse this so much — without Brick Road my experience would be completely and utterly different: so much more isolated, so much more alone, and I think way less okay. I'm lucky to have, moving here, having brick road, having Gabe and Jesse, their employees, the programs they put together, the LGBT book club run with the Tempe Library, the Dungeons & Dragons Nights, the open mic nights, and just such community focus that they have and frankly, giving me a reason to leave the house.

00;20;13;08 - 00;20;44;04

MJ

Going to get a great iced coffee, from a small business that I'm over 100% okay with supporting. I don't have to second guess, like what is my money going to? Which terrible billionaire am I actually putting money in the pocket of? I'm like, no, I'm just supporting two phenomenal community members and their business which is so like, community made, community focused and yeah so, I found community here but only because of Brick Road and that there was a place for the community, I think to, to start coming to.

00;20;44;07 - 00;20;47;19

Jeanne

And I think that they had just opened at that time.

00;20;47;25 - 00;21;08;11

MJ

Yeah so they, they did their like grand opening I believe in early January. They'd done a very soft opening I think from October, but I think they'd either just started their social media — like Jess sent me a screenshot of their Instagram or something like, the day it was posted and I was like, Oh, yeah I'll go get a coffee. I can, I can leave the house.

00;21;09;10 - 00;21;35;05

MJ

Sure! And I went and it was just Kayla, that was one of my favorite baristas there, got an iced oat milk latte, because I'm queer, what else am I going to get? And, and that was it. Like I thought it was a good place. And then we, I can't remember how, but I think Jess got involved with Gabe and Jesse via the library and met them, and it like just spiraled out.

00;21;35;05 - 00;21;51;07

MJ

Yeah, meeting actually, like you said, meeting community members. But I 100% agree with you, where if Brick Road hadn't been there, I think I would have had a very similar experience to you in that like, I wouldn't know where to go, how to find community, just what to do.

00;21;51;07 - 00;21;53;28

Jeanne

Google searches don't actually connect you to people, so it's —

00;21;53;28 - 00;22;07;00

MJ

No! You get those like pop up ads that it's like, Hot moms in your area, and I just want like, Friendly, anxious queers willing to hang out. And I would click that so quickly.

00;22;07;00 - 00;22;10;25

Jeanne

Yeah, That would be such a funny ad, oh my god.

00;22;11;17 - 00;22;16;10

MJ

Right? Like, totally anxious queer wants to talk about their special interest with you, and I'm like, Yes, I will.

00;22;16;18 - 00;22;19;26

Jeanne

That would also be a good podcast, I think.

00;22;19;26 - 00;22;23;07

MJ

Oh, absolutely. Yes.

Jeanne

Yeah absolutely.

00;22;23;07 - 00;22;27;23

Jeanne

You've mentioned a couple of times, oh, this gives me a reason to get out of the house. Do you work at home?

00;22;27;27 - 00;22;49;23

MJ

I do! I work for myself. Trying to be — no not trying to be an entrepreneur. Yeah, I've worked as, well, I also wouldn't say, like I've run my own business, but I have for yeah, five, six years now. Yeah. I call myself a movement specialist because I don't feel what I do is quite personal training, but I cannot call it physical therapy.

00;22;49;23 - 00;23;15;12

MJ

I didn't go to school for physical therapy. So I feel like I'm in this in-between space where my focus is much more pain management based than like fitness. Again, not really physical therapy. And so my main areas of work are preparing for and recovering from gender affirming surgery because it's a lot to do, to make that an easier process for yourself and your body and there aren't resources, so.

00;23;17;04 - 00;23;18;04

Jeanne

Yeah, that's true.

00;23;18;09 - 00;23;50;13

MJ

Yeah. I wanted to fill that gap, so to speak. So preparing for and recovering from gender affirming surgery, pain management. I work a lot with folks with chronic pain, chronic illnesses, chronic conditions, or like situational pain, injuries, things like that. And as well, an overall, building relationship with one's body. I think especially for queer folks, especially trans folks, that relationship can be challenging actually figuring out your body.

00;23;50;28 - 00;24;14;16

MJ

And I know I put my body through a lot. So yeah, just trying to help people be kinder, softer. I talk about on my Instagram a lot, soft trans bodies and from the attitude of both like physical softness — because I feel like so much trans representation is like incredibly built, muscled trans men — and again, there's nothing wrong with that.

00;24;14;17 - 00;24;35;24

Jeanne

Sure.

MJ

Great, but I think when that's the majority of the representation you see, and that's not your body, that's not your experience, like, that's not like mine, there's something wrong [inaudible]. So I put out soft trans bodies wanting to show like, bodies can be soft and it's great and also the implication of like: be softer to yourself. We're so hard on ourselves.

00;24;36;19 - 00;24;49;07

Jeanne

I think sometimes on a very physical level we throw ourselves under the wheel, right? Just this body has caused me nothing but grief and I'm going to just —

MJ

Punish it.

Jeanne

— punish it, essentially. Yeah.

00;24;49;18 - 00;24;49;26

MJ

100%.

00;24;50;23 - 00;25;15;20

Jeanne

And then, you know, going through surgery, preparing for surgery, I mean, just the the physical toll of preparing for surgery is something people don't really talk about very much. And then recovering is a whole pain situation for sure. You have limited mobility. I had like a three-night hospital stay and then came home and really just spent a lot of time in bed.

00;25;15;20 - 00;25;29;09

Jeanne

But then the thing was I couldn't really be comfortable in bed without a whole complicated pillow set up. And I didn't want to be on pain medicine, but I did for like the first week.

00;25;29;28 - 00;25;30;02

MJ

Yeah, same.

00;25;30;12 - 00;25;51;19

Jeanne

And it's just, it's so much. Like you can read about it and you can get the materials from your surgeon, and then you actually go through it. And I think I pushed myself like too fast and — to, to get through the recovery process. And I don't know that that was great for me, like just psychologically. I think physically it ended up being okay in the long run.

00;25;51;19 - 00;25;54;17

Jeanne

But overall, not, not the best decision.

00;25;55;01 - 00;26;00;28

MJ

Yeah, you're in this weird space where, mentally, maybe the happiest I've ever been.

00;26;01;21 - 00;26;02;00

Jeanne

Mm hmm. Yeah.

00;26;02;07 - 00;26;27;07

MJ

Even, even that first week where it's so uncomfortable, like you're still wearing a binder, because you've got to, like, keep everything together, and it's so uncomfortable. I want to be careful about using the word painful, but it is painful, but sometimes just unbearably uncomfortable, over like pain-pain. But mentally, just like, wow. Like, do not regret, would do however many times.

00;26;28;01 - 00;26;56;10

MJ

If I kept having to go back in time, I'd make this decision every time. But your body doesn't know that. Or you're like, again, a lot of my work really dials down to, like, looking at the brain, looking at hormone responses, nervous system responses especially I think the queer folks have a lot of trauma. And that impacts the nervous system and that impacts the body, the brain and all of it.

00;26;56;10 - 00;27;27;18

MJ

So as much as there's this emotional joy, all goodness, from a mental slash physical standpoint, your body has been harmed. And I know that that's kind of, that might sound like, bleak, but again, very kind of like medically: it is, it's been harmed. It's been impacted physically. And so your brain not only — I think it swaps. I think, for a lot of our lives — at least my perspective.

00;27;27;18 - 00;27;57;07

MJ

I shouldn't speak for the community, but I didn't feel emotionally safe in my body and I got top surgery and then for that — a longer period of time than again I think we're given to recover — my brain didn't feel physically safe in my body. It had been harmed, it's recovering from a significant (I'm doing air quotes) injury but you know again kind of very — stepping back, surgery is an injury, it is a harm to the body.

00;27;58;04 - 00;28;00;05

Jeanne

Yeah, in like a really literal way.

00;28;00;05 - 00;28;26;26

MJ

Yeah. Yes, yes, exactly. So from that very literal standpoint and again, just how the brain is reacting to what has happened to the body, I think recovery definitely needs to be much more guided through. So many more, so many more options and support in any surgery. Of course I'm biased to gender confirmation surgery because it it is lifesaving. I know. Isn't this the debate?

00;28;27;05 - 00;28;30;09

MJ

"It's not a life saving surgery." And I'm like, it is.

00;28;30;12 - 00;28;34;27

Jeanne

It is. But also I think it's important, even if it, even if it weren't. Yeah.

00;28;35;00 - 00;28;36;20

MJ

Even if it wasn't, yeah, I think that's a great point.

00;28;38;06 - 00;28;56;23

Jeanne

I think historically a lot of that care around surgery was just a community thing. People who would be there for each other before and after surgery. During the pandemic, that was not as much of an option. I have a good friend — well, you just met them, they took your photo, but —

00;28;57;01 - 00;28;57;08

MJ

It's great! Thank you again.

00;28;57;27 - 00;29;23;10

Jeanne

But my friend Tate got surgery during the pandemic and couldn't have anyone in the surgery center with them. Recovery was very strange because I got to be around a bit during recovery, but it was very much a choice to say, okay, well, I'm — this is going to be the the social risk I take, is to be here, and I'm not going to be in other places. I think this was right around the same time, like December 2020.

00;29;23;24 - 00;29;38;02

Jeanne

So it's something that I think really changes that. And being in a place like Arizona, where sometimes the community isn't as developed, you don't always have that community support to lean onto. So it sounds like the work you're doing is…

00;29;39;09 - 00;30;05;27

MJ

Yeah, yeah. Trying to provide that in my own way, definitely. Through like, again, the work that I do, the services I offer. Just trying to bridge that gap a little bit, especially for what I feel is a really uneducated part of it. I feel like at least in my experience, I wonder if yours will be similar like, okay, you have the surgery, recover for 4 to 6 weeks and then you're fine — from the like medical standpoint.

00;30;06;07 - 00;30;41;15

MJ

It's like, yeah, it's a 4 to 6 week recovery and then you can do everything you did before, like you're, you're medically recovered. And it's like, I've barely moved for a month. I've been restricting, you know, my arm use for this length of time. I've been even more hunched over because of the discomfort. I've not slept well. There's an impact on, like, digestion from the anesthesia and things like that that's going to mess with other other hormones in the body, like there is so much more than just waiting till the stitches aren't going to burst.

00;30;41;26 - 00;30;45;22

Jeanne

Right, some arbitrary deadline. It's not really the end of it.

00;30;45;27 - 00;30;46;21

MJ

100%.

00;30;46;22 - 00;30;49;00

Jeanne

And your nerves have to stitch back together.

00;30;49;09 - 00;31;13;18

MJ

Right? There's so much going on in the body and they really don't go into that with you. They don't talk to you about that. I'm lucky I had that knowledge just based on my job, my education, and I like learning about the body, which is why I wanted to late bridge that gap. So I offer like one on one training for folks to like work with them in preparation and recovering from surgery.

00;31;13;18 - 00;31;25;26

MJ

But one of the things I'm most passionate about is that kind of like, what I would deem the recovery period, which is that 4 to 6 weeks period of time that you're still kind of under medical recovery.

00;31;25;26 - 00;31;26;07

Jeanne

Yeah.

00;31;26;24 - 00;31;37;23

MJ

Because that is the most limited. I think that's the most uncomfortable period of time. Like you said, I think a lot of people push themselves through that period of time a little faster to get to where they want to be.

00;31;37;29 - 00;31;42;12

Jeanne

For a lot of that period of time you're just, or I was actively bleeding, right? So.

00;31;42;14 - 00;32;04;14

MJ

Right? Drains. It's not, it's not, you're not like, I'm not sure if well is the right word, but you are like very actively recovering. But I feel like it's, it's very much like, oh, just don't do much. Take your pain medication, you'll be fine. It's like, my back really hurts. Like, mm. And it's like, no. Where are the resources?

00;32;04;14 - 00;32;26;13

MJ

Where's the information? Like, where is that, that like you said, that community care of like, okay this mobilization doesn't require any arm use. It's going to target your lower back. It's going to help you like release a little bit of that aggravation. Doing square breathing's going to kick in your parasympathetic nervous system, help keep your body calm, relaxed, feel safer in this very threatened environment your brain is existing in.

00;32;26;25 - 00;32;49;00

MJ

And again, that's going to help with recovery; that is going to make it go faster without doing, you know. And just finding all that information, like here's a gentle shoulder mobilization that again, doesn't require any lifting, moving of the arms again is just going to relieve that upper back pain from being so hunched over from being crowded over yourself for that period of time.

00;32;49;28 - 00;33;16;21

MJ

And so an online, not sure what to call it, resource. Let's call it a resource. Movement Genius reached out to me and we created a series together for top surgery recovery specifically for those first four weeks, because once an individual is cleared for movement I'm happy to kind of again kind of work with them one-on-one, work on a program for them, like a map for them to build a little bit more personally into what their body needs to feel and move better.

00;33;17;06 - 00;33;42;20

MJ

Post-surgery. But I feel like that one to four weeks, I feel like you should be prioritizing, kind of like definitely resting. I don't think, I don't know if your brain fog was bad? Mine was terrible. I was, just yeah. Completely fogged up for that kind of, well because of the pain medication, because of the discomfort. So I don't think I don't think it's an ideal time to be like, let's do an hour Zoom session.

00;33;42;20 - 00;33;43;17

Jeanne

Right, no, not at all.

00;33;43;17 - 00;33;49;21

MJ

But, if you've got like a ten minute video you can play, follow along with, that's way more accessible. So that's why we decided to do that.

00;33;49;21 - 00;34;12;24

Jeanne

But my experience is, like you were saying earlier, like if I look back at like, selfies I have or pictures of me over the past five years or whatever, the first time I see like real smiles — it's such a cliche — but it really is like at that moment, like the day after my surgery. And it's ridiculous. But, you know, I can I can think about that.

00;34;12;24 - 00;34;35;13

Jeanne

And I think that the easy thing to project on to that is like, here's the moment where I felt great. I did not feel great. I felt awful. And it impacted my relationships. It was, none of it was easy for me. It was a very stressful time, even though I was so happy to get the surgery. And that's something that I think really can easily be overlooked.

00;34;35;13 - 00;35;05;29

Jeanne

Of like, you are going through a traumatic moment, even though it's something that's getting you past other trauma you have. Right? And that's I don't know. I've never really totally put it together that way. But I mean, if I had had better resources to prepare for that process, I think that probably would have helped me to just exist in myself and in community more peacefully.

00;35;06;14 - 00;35;36;29

MJ

I absolutely [inaudible] have Jess to be able to take the time off work that she did. And she had, she was like, she cared for me the whole first week. You know that very — well, not everyone has drains. I did have drains, but like, they're there. They're there, they're hanging around, it's uncomfortable. And so having a support system for that first week — I get people messaging me like, oh, I don't have anyone, what do I do?

00;35;37;00 - 00;35;59;25

MJ

I'm like, Find someone. And I don't say it that blatantly, but that's what I want to say. I want to be like, You really shouldn't go through this alone. And to think of the amount of people that have to go through that situation on their own is heartbreaking. And so I feel like the more resources we put out there, that's only going to help, I think.

00;36;00;06 - 00;36;14;21

Jeanne

And going through it alone sometimes doesn't mean actually alone, but I mean going through it if you have queer people, other queer people with you, or other trans people with you, is a very different experience than just having some kind of support network.

00;36;15;11 - 00;36;16;08

MJ

Absolutely. Yes. That's a great point.

00;36;17;20 - 00;36;35;28

Jeanne

I think before we wrap up, I'd really like to ask, now that you've been in Tempe for a year, you have this really amazing set of connections through Brick Road, through the movement work that you do. What do you see as kind of like your immediate community future in Arizona?

00;36;37;10 - 00;37;12;05

MJ

I'd love to put more… yeah, to put more movement resources out there. I see your organization does like, bike nights and runs, and I love that. And I've been trying to like, find the time to like join because I think that's such an incredible thing. Again I kind of harken back to what we talked about before, is queer people and trans people really don't get a chance to feel joy through our bodies a lot, especially via movement.

00;37;12;10 - 00;37;35;06

MJ

Again, I think there is a lot of like restriction, hiding, making ourselves small, don't draw attention. And also like in the relationships with our bodies on size and shape and all these things and the discomfort in body. Like I still don't like running, I'm never going to be a runner but going for a little jog after top surgery, I was like, Oh, it's because they were bouncing.

00;37;35;16 - 00;37;58;14

MJ

That's why I hated it. They don't do that anymore because they're not there. This is not nearly as bad. I still don't like it. Still not a runner. But just like, oh, piece connected. That's why it was so uncomfortable. And so I think, yeah, providing more resources, more movement opportunity for folks to be like, one, you're safe here.

00;37;58;22 - 00;38;25;13

MJ

As safe as one environment can be for queer folks. And two, like, you know, go through things safely. You can get just frankly like more education on the body and how it works and ways to, again, treat it softly. Treat it kindly, treat yourself kindly because again, so much not only — you nailed it earlier — do we punish our bodies for existing as trans folks,

00;38;25;22 - 00;38;49;17

MJ

But that's the narrative of the world, isn't it? Like push through the pain, grind, all these things. And I hate it. I hate it so much because it is, it's very aggressive and it is very negative. It's this idea that that's morally superior? To be able to, like, work so hard you hurt yourself, but you can then like keep going?

00;38;49;21 - 00;38;58;07

MJ

I personally don't. That's a —

Jeanne

No…

MJ

No. Right? It seems logical when we say it, but people still do it. It gets very sucked in.

00;38;58;07 - 00;39;00;16

Jeanne

It's very easy to buy into it.

00;39;00;16 - 00;39;24;02

MJ

100%. It's what we've been fed, at least my entire life. I'm a kid of the 90 like my whole life, just this narrative of like, push push push, go go go. And so, yeah, an opportunity to, like, slow down sounds maybe a bit cheesy, but like connect with your body rather than disconnect. Like be present via movement rather than using movement as an escape.

00;39;24;02 - 00;40;03;14

MJ

The amount of times growing up that I used movement to get out of my body? Too many. Led to bad things. But again, I think that's quite a common experience for a lot of folks, so yeah, I think that's that's true. I'd love to see myself and Arizona, Tempe wherever it is come together in that like, our great and accessible joyful spaces for queer folks. Like, only queer folks actually, that's actually safer for us.

00;40;03;17 - 00;40;42;04

Jeanne

Oh gosh that's that is a really beautiful idea I think.

MJ

One day.

Jeanne

Well, thanks for talking with me today. We should talk more about that actually.

MJ

Great!

Jeanne

I really enjoyed that conversation and MJ and I ended up talking for like another 20 minutes afterward about Queer People Fit and their own movement work. And I loved it; I got a lot of really great ideas, which is actually a great opportunity to plug our upcoming event on Tuesday, November 15th, where we'll be taking an evening walk around an accessible trail at South Mountain Park.

00;40;42;22 - 00;40;54;25

Jeanne

You can find out more about that at equalityarizona.org/events. I want to thank MJ again for being my guest this week and I want to thank all of you for listening.

On today’s episode of the Arizona Equals Conversation, listen to an interview with BLM Phoenix Metro co-founder Dr. Sarra Tekola about their research in sustainability and colonialism and their political history leading social change work in Seattle and Phoenix.

Links & Context

* Black Lives Matter Phoenix Metro

* Occupy / We are the 99%

* The human microphone / the people’s mic

* Arab Spring

* Standing Rock / Dakota Access Pipeline

* NIMBY’s

* Bayard Rustin

* Disability Justice

* WTO protests in Seattle

* Shell Arctic drilling protests in Seattle

* Non-indictment of Darren Wilson

* Seattle Autonomy Zone

* Truth and Reconciliation

Arizona Equals is a conversational interview podcast chronicling the lives and experiences of LGBTQ+ Arizonans. If you're a part of Arizona's LGBTQ+ community, we want to you to be a guest on our podcast. Sign up today on our website!

Full Transcript

00;00;00;03 - 00;00;22;11

Jeanne

From Equality Arizona. You're listening to the Arizona Equals Conversation. I'm Jeanne Woodbury. I'm the interim executive director of Equality Arizona, and I've been hosting this podcast for a few months now. As I step into this new leadership role, it's really rewarding to be able to talk to queer people from across the state who are already involved in community leadership.

00;00;22;27 - 00;00;50;22

Jeanne

My guest today, Sarra, is one of the first people I wanted to talk to when I actually started this podcast earlier this year, and fortunately we were able to schedule something just recently. So I'm really excited to release this interview. It was really fascinating to hear about their path through advocacy, from their initial activism in the Occupy movement all the way to what they're doing today with Black Lives Matter Phoenix Metro.

00;00;51;27 - 00;01;19;21

Jeanne

I didn't get involved with the Occupy Wall Street movement at the time, but I think it's clear that it's a really defining moment for not just a lot of people's political journeys, but the way politics works today and the potential that exists in progressive organizing even now. There's some really unique things about that moment in time, and I really appreciated getting to hear from someone who was there and was really involved in it.

00;01;20;08 - 00;01;40;26

Jeanne

That's certainly not the biggest part of their story, but it's something that really stood out to me, and I think that there's a good chance you'll find something like that in the interview that can really resonate for you in terms of how you've thought about politics, or that might open you up to maybe some new ways of thinking about politics and thinking about organizing.

00;01;41;08 - 00;02;07;01

Jeanne

So, really just a fascinating conversation. I don't want to spend too much time in the intro here, but that being said, today is the 2nd of November. If you're listening to this, when it comes out, it's the 2nd of November. And that means there's less than a week left at this point until the midterm elections. Early voting continues through Friday, and then the polls will be open for most of the day on Election Day.

00;02;07;01 - 00;02;40;18

Jeanne

So make sure to get out and vote when you're able and make sure to make a plan so that you will be able to vote. If you're looking for any more information about that or about what's on your ballot, just visit our Voter Guide online at EQAZ.vote. Yeah, that's a URL. All right. Let's start the interview.

00;02;45;00 - 00;02;57;06

Sarra

My name is Sarra. My pronouns are they/them. I am an organizer, co-director and co-founder of Black Lives Matter, Phoenix Metro. And, happy to talk to you all today.

00;02;57;16 - 00;03;18;14

Jeanne

Thanks for your time. I think it's always interesting to talk with someone who I don't know, I haven't met, but I'm familiar with your work. I've heard people talk about your work and so it's an interesting starting point I think, for me. I feel like you've gotten caught up in like a couple of controversies. People have feelings about you without actually knowing you.

00;03;18;28 - 00;03;20;24

Jeanne

What is that experience like?

00;03;21;28 - 00;03;49;22

Sarra

Um, yeah, it kind of sucks, but I guess it's been a lesson in just like, really, I think a lot of people are like, Oh, I don't care what people think. It's like, do you really? What about when they're dragging your name through the mud and you don't even know them? But, yeah it's been kind of just like, you know, an exercise in releasing expectation and just, like, really realizing, you know, like, I am who I am.

00;03;49;22 - 00;04;00;08

Sarra

And you can either, you know, like the people who need to be in your life, who understand where you're coming from and the people who don't, you shouldn't have to explain yourself to.

00;04;00;26 - 00;04;08;29

Jeanne

Yeah, I like that. What were some of the expectations you had before that you had to let go of?

00;04;08;29 - 00;04;46;18

Sarra

It's like wanting to be understood, wanting for my perspective to be heard. But then like also coming to an understanding. There's a quote, I'm not going remember who, who said it unfortunately but, that talks about like, you know, don't spend your time trying to be understood by people who perpetually seek to misunderstand you. And I feel that a lot.

00;04;46;18 - 00;05;16;12

Sarra

And so for me, it was like, okay, instead of like, feeling like, you know, as black, queer person, multiple like various identities, I feel like I've often times felt misunderstood and not heard. And so for me that — sometimes I'll feel like, oh, I want to, I want to make sure they understood like, where I'm coming from or see my perspective.

00;05;16;12 - 00;05;43;27

Sarra

But now I've kind of come to an understanding that, you know, like this world wasn't built for me and that there are people who are going to misunderstand me soon as they hear my pronouns or as soon as I see the color of my skin. And so instead of like being, trying to get everyone on your side or trying to speak to everyone, it's just like being confident in who you are and not like needing that validation from others.

00;05;43;28 - 00;05;45;08

Sarra

You know, it's a journey, but…

00;05;45;23 - 00;06;13;06

Jeanne

I think that can be kind of freeing. Like when you are trying to talk to people and get your message across, if you're not worrying about what they're thinking so much or how they're going to receive it, and you can just speak the message confidently. I feel like it can help a lot. I spend a lot of time talking to people who have very anti-trans opinions just as part of my work.

00;06;13;22 - 00;06;31;07

Jeanne

And there's that distinction between people who, like, have these opinions and will listen and people who just are intentionally going to always misunderstand you. Do you feel like it's a helpful tool in your work — like for the work itself — and not just for yourself as a person to take that approach?

00;06;31;12 - 00;07;01;23

Sarra

Yeah, I do, so because I think that, um, I mean, we see it with the Democrats and their, their spinelessness where like, you know, they perpetually try to, to work with the other side when you know the other side is not interested in working with them and, and then also in trying to, to be understood by someone who perpetually seeks to misunderstand you.

00;07;02;04 - 00;07;30;20

Sarra

What we've seen in politics, how it shapes up, is that, you know, we don't have a left and right. We have a far right and a central, because they want to make the other side hear you. But it's like, with certain groups or certain people like, it's a waste of your time because the only way you are going to connect to them is, is by compromising your values.

00;07;30;20 - 00;07;48;20

Sarra

And I'm not saying that about everyone. You know, it takes discernment and seeing like who is actually curious about hearing, who has already made up their mind and is only seeking to speak to you or work with you to prove their point about their, you know, already made up mind.

00;07;48;28 - 00;08;03;15

Jeanne

And I feel like, unfortunately, a lot of people are just drifting into that category of, they've already made up their mind. Do you conceive of your work as politics or is it just politics adjacent? How do you think about that?

00;08;04;02 - 00;08;41;24

Sarra

I mean, I think it depends on what we talk about, politics, right? Because on one hand, I intentionally don't engage in like electoral politics. I don't do work, you know, trying to get people elected because from my viewpoint, it's really about the collective. And so, you know, like while I do work on policy and policy can be written by a community and can be — while it may take, you know, you need your political allies, you need politicians on your side —

00;08;42;03 - 00;09;09;04

Sarra

It's not putting all your faith into one person, which I think is my issue with a lot of electoral politics. I mean, we can just look at even when we got Obama in office for the first time, it was like, oh, we can all go home now. He's going to fix America, you know? And in a lot of ways, I feel like that reduced his power because we thought we had won and we all went home.

00;09;09;04 - 00;09;37;18

Sarra

And I feel like we're seeing this again with Biden in office where, you know, people are like, okay, we won, Trump is gone. But like kids are still in cages. And so I think that for me, politics is a lot more than politicians and it's a lot more than policy. For me, being a black person and expressing joy is a political act.

00;09;37;18 - 00;10;04;14

Sarra

We talk about all the time how black joy is part of the resistance. Being a black, queer, African person is a political identity whether or not I want to be or not. And so I think that I think that my work is politics, but it's really the politics of cultural change and societal shift. And that's the work that I'm most interested in.

00;10;05;03 - 00;10;36;23

Sarra

And I think, you know, it's in the same way, you know, like trans people's identities are politicized. It's like, these are things that are thrust upon us and we can either attempt to ignore it, but we're always going to have that, that politicization in everything that we do. And for me, it's like, well, I'm going to take this politicization of my identity and use it to to change society.

00;10;36;23 - 00;11;09;20

Sarra

And, you know, I think societal change work, it's a lot harder to measure, whereas policy and politicians are like, did you get them in office or not? Did the bill pass or not? You know it's very — there's no nuance to it, right? But I feel like there's a lot more nuance to, to social change work. Like the first, the first activism I got involved in was actually the Occupy Wall Street movement.

00;11;09;28 - 00;11;12;23

Jeanne

Oh wonderful, like back in 2011?

Sarra

Yeah.

Jeanne

Yeah, okay.

00;11;14;01 - 00;11;51;08

Sarra

So both my sister and my mom were, you know, working class people in the unions. And because of their union involvement, it's kind of how I kind of began to develop my class analysis and where I learned about like, you know, we are the 99%, in that there's the 1% that's hoarding all this wealth, and started to really — where I guess I developed my anti-capitalist analysis, and a lot of people criticized the Occupy movement in a similar way to they criticized the Black Lives Matter movement.

00;11;51;08 - 00;12;13;21

Sarra

And there's a lot of overlap in the movements where we intentionally didn't choose to have a messiah or a singular leader, where it's leader-full, where we didn't have a singular demand, but we you know, we're really talking about these cultural shifts. You know, a lot of people looked at Occupy and was, like a lot of people sat in parks and nothing happened.

00;12;13;21 - 00;12;44;18

Sarra

And, you guys should have had one demand, and nothing changed. But for me, I felt like the Occupy movement was successful because it did have, uh, basically push forth the consciousness of capitalism and the late stage capitalism that we are in today. And I think even a lot of you know, what I see in Gen Z and a lot of young folks who have this analysis, a lot of the words that they're saying analysis that was developed during Occupy.

00;12;44;18 - 00;13;12;12

Sarra

Probably way before they were even. You know, aware or understanding and so for me that is the cultural shift. And, you know, we needed that Occupy movement then to be where we are today. And I think the Occupy movement inspired Arab Spring. I think it inspired the Black Lives Matter movement in the ways in which it was organized, very decentralized.

00;13;12;12 - 00;13;35;23

Sarra

There wasn't one group that spoke for the whole; there wasn't one policy demand. And I think that's a beautiful thing. And so when we look at cultural change work, I think that we also have to have more complexity about wins and losses — such binary thinking — and as a non-binary person, it's like, it's so much, it's more, you know, it's more like an X and Y scale.

00;13;36;02 - 00;13;38;22

Sarra

It's, you know, like this —

Jeanne

It's multidimensional.

Sarra

Yeah.

00;13;39;13 - 00;14;03;29

Jeanne

One thing I remember from Occupy was the, like, human microphone and the consensus decision making. And I think some things like that are also the legacy of Occupy, that those kinds of techniques for organizing have, have held on and hung around. Is that part of what you're talking about when you're talking about cultural change? Like techniques and…?

00;14;04;16 - 00;14;27;22

Sarra

Yeah, techniques, new ways of looking at things, and new ways of even doing things like, you know, like the people's mic is a great example where like there are so many times, you know, from BLM to Standing Rock where I remember the people's mic helped get people out, helped save people when, you know, police were coming to attack us or, or otherwise.

00;14;27;22 - 00;14;39;17

Sarra

So, you know, I think that, you know, when we look at, oh, whether or not a movement won or not, I think that if there is a shift in consciousness, that that is a win.

00;14;39;27 - 00;14;50;05

Jeanne

Yeah. So when you were involved in Occupy Wall Street, were you in one of the cities that was really active, or what was your engagement like?

00;14;50;06 - 00;15;25;03

Sarra

Yeah, I was in Seattle, so there was, at the community college there was a huge occupation. I wasn't very much involved in that piece, in the occupation, that I was in community college. I think I was like 18 and during that time I just remember the fact that we took the Occupy movement and we used it to call out the practice happening at our University of them hiring only adjunct professors and not paying them enough.

00;15;25;03 - 00;15;46;05

Sarra

We took the practice of Occupy and the 1% and we used that to push back. My first campaign was actually lobbying to reduce lunch prices in the cafeteria of our community college, and we won and it felt really good and I was like, this is, this is how change is made. And, you know, looking back, it was like a really like kind of small campaign.

00;15;46;05 - 00;16;16;25

Sarra

But at the same time I'm glad that it was my first campaign because we got to see like the power of social change, even if it was on the scale of, you know, a few thousand people.

Sarra

Jeanne

Hyper-local.

Sarra

Yeah. And so there was just like a lot that opened up because of the political moment that we were in that we were able to change things and, and so my involvement — a lot, I remember being out protesting on the day student debt hit $1 trillion and now it's like way more than that.

00;16;16;25 - 00;16;36;26

Sarra

But you know, all of that, I think shaped not just like who I am, but the way I organized. I mean, even the fact that I've never, I've never had a bank, I only bank with credit unions because, you know, coming in and seeing like the Wells Fargo and Chase, who, you know, "Banks got bailed out. People got sold out!"

00;16;36;26 - 00;17;10;01

Sarra

That was one of our chants. It was like I don't want to bank with the banks, like and even now that influences my politics and even the way in which like, you know, who, who we'll take money from or who we'll work with because yeah, we're fighting for black liberation, but because of, of what I've learned from, you know, the fight against capitalism and the 1% now we have to include that because if we don't, then, you know — Everything is intersectional.

00;17;10;01 - 00;17;41;25

Sarra

Like during the subprime mortgage loan crisis, black women lost the most amount of houses. And so, you know, it's important when you look at that, that you see like how all of these things are connected and why like a single analysis can't work. Like, you know, I, and why I critique things like black capitalism and yes, I do want black people to be successful, but liberation isn't going to be black capitalism because I have an understanding that capitalism is, it requires an exploitation.

00;17;41;25 - 00;18;02;05

Sarra

So if we don't want to be NIMBYs and just like push it, like, oh, we just want to, we just want to sit at the table like white people, you know, which is essentially, you know, the people like Kanye. Then we, we do have to include not just, you know, an anti-capitalist analysis, but also something else in our work.

00;18;02;10 - 00;18;30;24

Sarra

And BLM Phoenix is like we also have to make sure that we realize while we have oppression because we are Black, we have privilege because we're American. And for those of us who have American citizenship. And so what does that mean? And what for me — oftentimes when the conversation around privilege, especially white people, often is like, I have privilege, I have to feel guilty about it.

00;18;30;29 - 00;19;17;07

Sarra

And it's like, no, you feeling guilty is only going to make yourself feel worse and it's not, like it doesn't help anyone at all. Like what we need is you to look at privileges and responsibility. And so that's something that, you know, we're trying to do is like, how do we use this responsibility, having American citizenship privilege? How can we wield that in a way that supports our brothers and sisters in the Global South, in the motherland, you know, and why we center as an organization here in Phoenix, why we center queer and femme folks, you know, with an understanding of, since the Civil Rights, women and queer people have been getting erased from the movement.

00;19;17;08 - 00;19;54;29

Sarra

You know, Bayard Rustin, you know, is an architect of, you know, the huge Civil Rights Movement and, and erased from it. And so, because he was gay and so like, if we want to do differently, we can't continue to like try to basically get us out of our situation without — And then what I see so often is it's like cutting the ladder that we climbed up on. It's like, how do we ensure that not only are we building a better world for ourselves, but everyone else?

00;19;54;29 - 00;20;27;01

Sarra

And so like another thing we've been working on lately is a disability justice lens and like, okay, so if we're saying we're intersectional, how are we also holding like a disability justice lens and what are the things that we don't know and what are the things, you know, even now, I think being a Black queer femme, like a lot of — often times it's like, people are like, oh, you should, the people closest to the problem are the closest to the solution.

00;20;27;11 - 00;20;56;01

Sarra

But we also, even myself, I have to also look at, okay, just because I have these various marginalized identities doesn't mean that I can speak for or understand any sort of experiences other than my own, you know. And so still realizing and having the humility to be like, no, we need to go back and ask the community. And even now, like being, um, most of our org is millennials.

00;20;56;01 - 00;21;09;20

Sarra

And so it's like, okay, as the gap between us and the youth gets wider and we're like, okay, so now we have to realize now like the adult-ism and like how we're perpetuating that.

00;21;09;20 - 00;21;31;12

Jeanne

I think about that for myself as like an adult trans person; so much of the anti-trans policy just targets kids. And I don't have that experience and I, you know, even my own experience of being a kid is very different because it was, it was a while back. It wasn't the experience they're having now. It's something where I kind of have to recognize, like — I have to listen and I have to learn.

00;21;31;12 - 00;21;34;24

Jeanne

I can't just come in and say, Well, okay, I'm trans. I know all about this.

00;21;34;24 - 00;22;04;18

Sarra

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And so I think that's another important part in this work is just like having the humility to always be learning and always — and not like, you know, I've been doing this for over a decade now, being an organizer and activist and, um, and there's still a lot I don't know and there's still, um, there's always a moment for humility.

00;22;05;13 - 00;22;16;02

Jeanne

I'm curious about your path over that decade; you were in Seattle, you were organizing at community college. How did you get to Phoenix and get into organizing here?

00;22;16;16 - 00;22;58;02

Sarra

Yeah. So, um, I think my experiences and identities kind of pose me to, to be interested in and involved, but I think my trajectory, a lot of it came through school. So initially first getting involved was at community college; when I then transferred to University of Washington where I did my bachelor's in environmental science. And during that time I got involved in the fossil fuel divestment movement also.

00;22;58;16 - 00;23;31;00

Sarra

Shell made the the wrong move to dock their Arctic driller in Seattle. And, you know, Seattle's a very environmentally friendly city. So we organized at the scale that like, was at like the WTO protest, which also happened in Seattle. And we got to work with folks that were involved in that and learn from them on like how to do basically citywide mobilizations to like direct action to go against that.

00;23;31;17 - 00;24;02;19

Sarra

And I definitely have a love and a passion for direct action, especially climate direct action. Um, but it was, you know, for me, I think getting involved in the Black Lives Matter movement was, came like the night of Darren Wilson's non-indictment. Darren Wilson was a murderer of Mike Brown, and I was involved prior to that. But it was just like, Oh, this is just a terrible thing that happened like, what do we do.

00;24;02;19 - 00;24;32;24

Sarra

But the night of Darren Wilson's non-indictment kind of changed everything. I remember I was at the University of Washington studying, and we heard about it, and I went to — one of my study places was something that was also very formative for me, was at this multicultural center, the Elson office, and it was a bunch of other, lot of like other African folks in STEM in this program.

00;24;33;03 - 00;24;49;11

Sarra

And so I ran in there. We're supposed to be staying biology and I'm like, did you guys hear what happened? We have to go to the streets now! And they're like, What do you mean? I'm like, I'm sure other people are going to be there, but we just, we have to go outside now. And so I dragged them from their books and we ran outside.

00;24;49;12 - 00;25;14;09

Sarra

We got to the streets and Capitol Hill, and there are thousands of people there. And we marched like all night. It was, it was amazing. And then I think I marched every single day for like weeks after and that was kind of my, yeah it was, it was the kind of the the spirit of the age at the time.

00;25;14;09 - 00;25;35;13

Sarra

And I think I've learned so much since then. And, and it was interesting in the last, like the 2020 movement having been in a different position now because during then I was like, we got to go in the streets every single night. But years later I found out, you know, we increased the police budget because we were marching every night.

00;25;35;13 - 00;25;36;00

Jeanne

Oh, gosh.

00;25;37;16 - 00;26;14;23

Sarra

You know, more overtime for the police and, and learning about, you know, Frederick Douglass says "power concedes nothing without a demand" and really realizing like, okay, yes, we want justice for black lives. But that's not a tangible demand that can be implemented. Like what are, how can you articulate the actual things that you're asking for? You know, this came years later, but that was that was my my kind of yeah, just kind of jumped headfirst in and both organized on the community level in Seattle as well as on the campus led level.

00;26;15;05 - 00;26;52;17

Sarra

In 2015, I worked with black organizers on the campus to hold like the largest walkout at the University of Washington since the 1960s. And we did have demands on every college level throughout the university, and we were able to move millions of dollars into racial equity and make some tangible changes. And then from there, I guess another one of my actions that was one of my favorite was during that march we walked past Greek Row and we got called like, monkeys and n-words and stuff.

00;26;52;26 - 00;27;12;19

Sarra

And there was a moment because I was in the front of the march and there was I don't know how many, you know, hundreds, if not thousands behind me. And, uh, and I wanted to beat up that frat boy right there. And the point at the time was like, do you see a leader right now? And if you do that, you're gonna get charged with instigating a riot.

00;27;12;19 - 00;27;41;23

Sarra

And also, like, that's not good to, you know, like people are looking up to you. And right now we're headed to the president's office and we're going to drop this off and we'll come back for those frat boys later. And so we did we left. I was like, okay, you know, I'm just going to — because I knew if the way I reacted because so many people were following me that I would not only be held responsible, but people could get hurt.

00;27;42;02 - 00;28;09;13

Sarra

So we had to let it be, which was hard at the time. But we marched to the President's office and we finished the, what we intended to do that day. And I think for me, that was also a lesson in not reacting. And that's, that's something I'm still learning today. But you know, like responding versus reacting, you know, because this racist, homophobic, sexist system…

00;28;09;15 - 00;28;32;08

Sarra

…will have you reacting all the time. There's an abundance to react to. But it's like, you can't really strategically, when you react you're not being strategic. You're being emotional, you're being shortsighted, you're being guided by, you know, endorphins, basically, you know. And so it's like if we want to move strategically, if we really want to win, we have to be, we have to think it through.

00;28;32;08 - 00;29;16;27

Sarra

And so what I really appreciated about that action was that we did that. And then we tried to report them. They, I'll never forget, they had this huge poster of like all the frat boys: they're all in the same polo, they all had the same haircut. And they're like, which one did it? Like really? And so we actually, because you know like, as we can expect, institutions won't deliver justice, we decided to deliver justice ourselves and we connected with a lot of people who had been wronged there, you know, queer people who have been locked out, dark skinned people who were told they're too dark.

00;29;16;27 - 00;29;40;17

Sarra

But the light skinned one can come in. Girls who had been raped and date raped there. We brought them all together and we were like, okay, we need to like the Greek Row has become a cesspit at University of Washington. And so we were like, we're going to hold a check your privilege party. And so there's like kind of a strip of grass in between the roads on Greek Row.

00;29;40;17 - 00;30;05;26

Sarra

And so we went, and it was like one of the first actions I got a permit to because I know these people have too many lawyers to just take up their lawn without a permit. So we did that and there is so many like barriers that they tried to stop us. And that's when I learned how powerful and hegemonic and white supremacist patriarchal the fraternity and sorority systems were in so many different ways.

00;30;05;26 - 00;30;36;18

Sarra

Just like how like at least at the University of Washington the sororities, they had to have a house mom, otherwise it'd be considered a brothel. But meanwhile the fraternities, they don't have no men in there, like making sure they don't rape girls. So but then even like, I think it's like, don't quote me, but I think it's like around like 60% of people in government and 80% of Fortune 500 companies are alums of fraternities.

00;30;36;29 - 00;30;54;03

Sarra

And so when we started to even try to get the permit and stuff we had like Homeland Security call us up — which I'm like, I know you probably part of this fraternity — and telling us, we're not going to protect you, so you're on your own. And this is after we told them we were getting death threats and like, that's your response?

00;30;54;03 - 00;31;12;25

Sarra

Like, you're on your own? Oh, okay. I was like, well, you know what? You know, at the police, we don't we didn't want your support anyways. We never expected it. And then we created our own security, which is something, you know, from then on, I've realized we have to do, you know, like if you really are an abolitionist, like that means that you can't expect the state to ever protect you.

00;31;13;10 - 00;31;39;20

Sarra

But what was beautiful about the event, despite the hate and like mobs of trolls that tried to stop us, mostly virtually. And I should have taken the forewarning and seen all the trolls that came from Arizona taking that as, maybe I shouldn't have come here. But I didn't. But anyways, we held the events anyways and we even got like, the notification from Southern Poverty Law that the Klan from Idaho was coming and like,

00;31;39;20 - 00;32;04;11

Sarra

Just like they really tried to scare us away from this event in all sorts of ways, but we held the event anyways. We held really a party like we had a whole like sound system on stage and between like dope, like woke rappers and people coming and telling their stories of what happened, we did it differently than a protest, which I think also made people more receptive.

00;32;04;11 - 00;32;23;16

Sarra

And so you have fraternities and sororities coming here like they were unsure, like, are you guys coming to fight us, or what are you doing? And then they come and they sat and they listened and they listened the whole time. And we had, you know, a black student union and MECHA and a bunch of other like queer groups and the black sororities and fraternities.

00;32;23;22 - 00;32;53;00

Sarra

They all came together. And really, we kind of, um, for me that was like a beautiful moment of cultural change. And after that event, not only did I have so many of the people who had threatened to kill me apologize and said that their heart was changed after that, but also what came of that was like the fraternities, they started holding as part of their like welcome week, or like the initiation or whatever you call it.

00;32;53;23 - 00;33;22;06

Sarra

They now are teaching about rape culture and about whiteness and white privilege. And they created like a diversity council, which, you know, I have my thoughts about that. But, you know, they, they started it. And so for me, that was like a great example of like culture change, which happens, you know, if, if I had I just reacted, you know, cussed them out and kept pushing, like that really wouldn't have made it.

00;33;22;06 - 00;33;34;13

Sarra

But, but, that being said, that work, it takes time and it also takes the ability and, you know, like there's, there's a time and a place for it I guess I'd say.

00;33;34;19 - 00;33;59;23

Jeanne

Something I've seen in Seattle is that there's this, like you're talking about, there's a whole tradition of organizing that — Something I noticed in 2020 was like that Seattle Autonomous Zone that they formed felt very Occupy. I don't think Arizona really feels the same way.

Sarra

Not at all.

Jeanne

Did you, when you came to Arizona, did you notice a pretty big contrast right away?

00;33;59;29 - 00;34;27;01

Sarra

Yeah, definitely. So I came out here, to start my Ph.D. at ASU, and I knew like, I had heard about Joe Arpaio. I knew it was a red state, but I guess I didn't understand to the extent of? And for me, I have this running joke that Arizona is the Sunken Place because not only is it a conservative state, you also have a lot of people of color who have, you know, drunken the Kool-Aid who, you know, need to be woken up from the teacup.

00;34;27;27 - 00;34;55;22

Sarra

They're, they're really in the Sunken Place. And so I with three others co-founded BLM Phoenix Metro in 2017, a year after I had come here. And, you know, there's been a lot of lessons and, you know, I still go back and forth because when we first came out, you know, two of us coming from Seattle being the type of activists that we were, we were way too radical.

00;34;55;22 - 00;35;22;27

Sarra

And like the community was not messing with it. They're like, uh uh, they're trying to get us arrested, you know, yeah, they weren't feeling it. And so we had to adjust and reevaluate and learn like you know, there's a cultural context in every city and what works in Seattle is not going to work in Arizona. And so we had to you know, restrategize and change the way that we were going about it to meet people where they're at.

00;35;22;27 - 00;35;45;12

Sarra

Because at the end of the day, it's like if we want to be a community org, then we have to meet them where they're at and not be like, Oh, like, you know, this is what we should be doing. So that's, yeah, there's, there's a few rebranding and restructuring that we've had to do and we continue to do to continue to try to meet us where we're at in the time.

00;35;45;12 - 00;36;06;03

Sarra

And you know, there's been a lot of shifts even since I came in 2016 to now, I think there's been such in the last two years, such an influx of new people. So even now, like the Black community, I think there's just so many transplants that back then it was really a thing about like making it safe and like meeting people where they're at.

00;36;06;03 - 00;36;15;11

Sarra

And now for us it's like a lot about building community because there's so many transplants and like people looking for for political homes and stuff. So yeah.

00;36;16;02 - 00;36;24;29

Jeanne

You mentioned you came here for your Ph.D. Was that also environmental science?

Sarra

Sustainability.

Jeanne

Oh okay. What's your focus within that field?

00;36;25;19 - 00;36;28;19

Sarra

So my dissertation, I just finished in May —

00;36;28;28 - 00;36;29;19

Jeanne

Oh, congratulations!

00;36;30;19 - 00;37;02;24

Sarra

Thanks! So my dissertation was on decolonization and response to climate change and basically drawing the connections between climate change and colonialism. And while on one hand there's the material need, you know, like climate and colonial reparations to address, you know, the divide between the First World and the Third World was created through colonialism. And that really the only way to move forward with climate justice is to change that.

00;37;03;01 - 00;37;36;06

Sarra

But before we can even get there and what really drew me to how I got here in the first place was like looking at like, climate change is getting worse and no one's doing anything about it. So what's wrong with our society and what prevents us from addressing it? And that's where I got to colonialism and found out like how, you know, Western society and not just the United States, but the United States is the worst in terms of like the cognitive dissonance, you know, and even like talking about like, oh, we are a nation of immigrants.

00;37;36;06 - 00;37;59;17

Sarra

No, we're not. Like this is a stolen country, like, you know, and even now with like things like in Arizona, how they banned ethnic studies and now they're trying to basically ban history. There's just so much cognitive dissonance. And so it's like if we can't even look up where we came from, how can we go forward? The only way we can look forward if we can't look at where we come from, is the continuation of the colonial narrative.

00;37;59;27 - 00;38;30;19

Sarra

So what I focused on was really the, what I consider the societal illness that prevents us from addressing climate change. And I termed it the pathology of modernity. And it's really like modernity and like how modernity was created through colonialism and slavery and genocide. And so there are traits that was learned during there such as exploitation, consumerism, control, domination, cognitive dissonance.

00;38;30;28 - 00;38;53;29

Sarra

These and other traits make up the pathology of modernity. And not only do they prevent us from addressing climate change, they prevent us from caring about anyone other than ourselves. The pathology of modernity was very apparent during COVID and why the United States fared off the worst with COVID despite us being the richest was that we don't care about anyone but ourselves.

00;38;53;29 - 00;39;20;12

Sarra

And this was learned from colonialism. And until we really look at the embedded, like even people like to call about like, oh, the Constitution, our foundations — our foundations are rooted in genocide and colonialism and slavery. And so in order for us to go do anything differently, we need to have a reckoning. And so that's kind of where I come when we talk about like cultural change work.

00;39;20;20 - 00;39;46;14

Sarra

That's part of the work that I'm interested in doing. And I think that it does mean like we do need to have a reckoning and we're starting to see in some places like Canada's doing the Truth and Reconciliation. I think that's a good first step. I think one of my issues with when they did it in South Africa was truth and reconciliation is an important first step.

00;39;46;14 - 00;40;10;06

Sarra

And I think that it can help to heal the trauma and peel back the layers of cognitive dissonance that are able to continue because of the lies that we continue to tell. Like the story of Thanksgiving is a great example. And then we want to say, Oh, this is just about gratitude. Like what, if the foundation of your gratitude is on genocide, then like we're not really going to do anything differently.

00;40;10;06 - 00;40;28;25

Sarra

And so, but I also think the next step after truth and reconciliation is reparations. And if we don't have a material change to change the conditions of those of us who are still suffering from colonialism, then we're not going to get any different outcomes, like we've seen in South Africa.

00;40;30;04 - 00;40;53;13

Jeanne

What you were saying in terms of like, why aren't people taking action about climate change, is something I've wondered about a lot living in Phoenix, where there's so many like really simple climate change mitigation strategies that are basically just things that would make living in Phoenix nicer immediately. And it's difficult to look at that and think, But why aren't we just — why don't we have more solar in Arizona?

00;40;53;13 - 00;41;23;14

Jeanne

Right. Questions like that that occur to me, and your analysis of it makes a lot of sense: that people aren't taking action that would benefit them because of this cognitive dissonance that you're talking about. I know ASU has a lot of different programs around like urban development research in terms of climate change and all of that. Did you feel like ASU was a good institution to study the things you wanted to study?

00;41;23;14 - 00;41;51;01

Sarra

Not really. I mean, there's a lot of gaslighting and like just denial of reality for example. For example, I got my Ph.D. in the school of sustainability. School of sustainability, one of our main funders is the Walmart family. And, you know, like, it's crazy when you think about like, okay, it's one thing, you know, like, I get it. They're a huge funder, they're here in Arizona, okay, take their money, but okay, put their name on our school.

00;41;51;23 - 00;42;24;06

Sarra

But, you know, you can see the, the Walton Global Institute of Sustainability. But it changes what we're allowed to talk about. And they don't — And when you bring it up, you get gaslit. But we are talking about sustainability, but we're talking about recycling and composting and we're not talking about capitalism and the fact that the way that — and consumerism! — and the fact that the way that we consume as Americans would take four and a half Earths if everyone was to live like us.

00;42;24;06 - 00;42;47;07

Sarra

And so it is quite literally impossible for the Global South to develop like they like to say, because we're taking all the resources. And so, but we can't have that conversation because our funding is rooted in the consumerism that we're speaking out against. And so, and so that changed even what they're willing to talk about, that changed the possibility of what we're willing to look at.

00;42;47;29 - 00;43;16;24

Sarra

I came into this work, you know, my, my undergraduate was in the physical sciences and I switched to the social sciences because I realized we have all the research and technology we need to transition. We've had it since before — I remember in 2012, a paper came out in Scientific American that talked about the technology we would need that we currently had to go 100% renewable by 2030.

00;43;17;01 - 00;43;47;00

Sarra

What is missing is the political and social will, and that is because in order to change and to do differently, then we would need to really address capitalism, address consumerism, address colonialism and the global divide between, you know, the developing world and the developed world, which, you know, these are colonial terms. But the chasm between the global North and South was created through colonialism.

00;43;47;00 - 00;44;24;26

Sarra

And now we have stuff like sustainable development where they're like, how can we help Africa? But we're not even talking about how Africa got there in the first place, you know? And so I think that it's missing a lot. But, the kudos I'll give to ASU you know, is that while, you know, I didn't really get much at all out of the classes because we weren't having critical conversations in sustainability — they are very much like, I have this paternalistic view that I now think, you know, I used to have it too, but now I think is naive.

00;44;24;26 - 00;44;47;11

Sarra

This belief that you can save the world, when one that like individuals aren't going to save shit, but that also like the the reality is that, you know, it's going to take a change in collective consciousness and we're not having the deeper conversations about the system change that needs to happen because yes, your little solar panel you made out of pop cans is cute.

00;44;47;11 - 00;45;15;00

Sarra

But however, like when we're talking about the change that's needed, we are talking about a need to restructure society. And so it's like we can't expect a different outcome until we have this, uh, this change in societal consciousness and until we basically heal from the pathology of modernity, we're going to continue to exploit, extract, steal, you know, this like, the whole colonial paradigm.

00;45;15;12 - 00;45;28;07

Jeanne

Well, when you think about the collective change, you want to be involved in, now that you're done with your PhD program at ASU, are you interested in staying in Arizona to do that work, or would you go somewhere else?

00;45;28;07 - 00;46;05;27

Sarra

Um, I, there's a few things. I plan to stay here as long as it takes to really just stabilize my organization and have an appropriate transition. Because it's important to me that the organization continues to run without me because it was never about me. It's really about community and about system change. And so, like, it's important that the institution that we're building differently continues to exist so that we can continue to change the culture here.

00;46;06;10 - 00;46;40;27

Sarra

I will say that Arizona's been a terrible place and has, you know, broken my spirit in some ways. And I don't think that I can ever stay here forever. In addition to that, while I'm still continuing to fight against this, I had helped also co-founded the Phoenix Environmental Justice Coalition. And we're actually even giving a talk at the big Race Forward conference happening in November about this topic, about the water.

00;46;41;10 - 00;47;03;20

Sarra

I also struggle with the fact that, you know, as I've gotten older and also begin to like understand, you know, like it takes system change, not climate change; it takes a collective, it's not individuals who can stop things. We're in the middle of the water crisis. And if we don't do something differently in the next two years, we're not really going to have water here.

00;47;04;01 - 00;47;26;23

Sarra

And so it's you know, Phoenix is kind of like a hot potato, like the market right now, like the housing market's really hot. And I'm like, do people understand we don't have water? Like we don't even have till 2030 if we continue business as usual? And you know, you can look at Lake Mead and look at the water levels and I can't tell you the anxiety it gives me and we continue to build.

00;47;26;23 - 00;47;45;05

Sarra

Phoenix is one of the fastest growing cities, and so the arrogance there is deafening. And like I said, while I'm here, I'm going to try to change it. But I also know I have to leave soon because I don't think there's, I don't know how much longer there's going to be water, to be honest.

00;47;46;24 - 00;47;52;00

Jeanne

Well, yeah. Oh, my God. Now I'm just anxious.

00;47;52;00 - 00;47;53;13

Sarra

That's usually what people say after I talk about that

00;47;53;25 - 00;47;59;03

Jeanne

Oh, oh, well, thanks for being on this podcast with me.

00;48;00;09 - 00;48;02;13

Sarra

Wait — can we end on a positive note?

00;48;02;13 - 00;48;03;06

Jeanne

Yeah, let's do that.

00;48;03;16 - 00;48;42;16

Sarra

Don't want to leave everyone anxious. Okay, so I think that, yeah, these issues are heavy and I try to, you know, not get burdened by them. But I also think that it's important to recognize that there is a lot of cultural change happening here and I think that it's exciting to see. And I think that one of the things we see, you know, is the fact that even like when BLM first started, we were one of the only black queer femme led abolitionist organizations.

00;48;42;18 - 00;49;15;05

Sarra

To my knowledge, the only in Phoenix when we started in 2017. And now there's like four or five different ones. And so that's culture change right there. You know, and understanding like even if we survive or not survive, it's an understanding that like even our time here has made a difference to allow for, for another world. Like the Zapatistas said, another world is possible — like we are starting to create, you know, who would every think, in the red state of Arizona…

00;49;15;08 - 00;49;46;16

Sarra

…we're starting to build like havens for black queer abolitionists. Like, I wouldn't think that before I came here, you know, and so while I think that, you know, Arizona is a tough place to be, I sometimes I'm like, you know, we got like scorpions and rattlesnakes and even the vegetation, will hurt you? Like, the cactuses. But at the same time, I think there's a ,what I've learned in my time here is like there's a certain level of resilience here.

00;49;46;16 - 00;50;25;19

Sarra

And so while, you know, I don't know what's going to happen with water in the future, I believe that black, and indigenous and queer folks will continue to survive and thrive because of our resilience and because of the resilience of this land. And so I think that's something that, that keeps me going and realizing that with a lot of this work, you know, when you are doing culture change work, you usually are often, you know — think about Galileo and talking about like, you know, the Earth is round and it doesn't, you know, like not everything revolves around it, and you know, he was killed.

00;50;25;26 - 00;50;48;21

Sarra

But at the same time, like, you know, it can be isolating to be to be on the edge of culture change. But at the same time, what I think about is like, you know, we're planting trees that we might not ever get to sit under the shade of, but we can rest easy knowing that, you know, for the next generation it's going to be better.

00;50;49;05 - 00;51;21;18

Jeanne

That's a fantastic thing to end on. Thank you.

Sarra

Yeah.

Jeanne

Thanks so much to Sarra again for taking the time to talk with me on the Arizona Equals Conversation. We have new episodes with queer people telling their stories that come out every week, every Wednesday morning. I'd love to talk with you, so check out our archive online at EqualityArizona.org/stories and use the form at the bottom of that page to sign up to be a guest on a future episode of the podcast.

00;51;21;18 - 00;51;49;00

Jeanne

If you're not already subscribed to the show in a podcast player, I'd really encourage you to do that. You can find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or really any platform, and if you're enjoying the show, please consider leaving a rating or a review, especially on Apple Podcasts. Those really help us to get to a wider audience. Thanks so much for listening, and talk to you again next week.

On this week’s episode of the Arizona Equals Conversation, Chris Tompkins joins Jeanne to talk about his book, Raising LGBTQ Allies, and his journey to becoming an educator, public speaker, and advocate.

Links & Shownotes

* Raising LGBTQ Allies

* Chris’s TEDx Talk

* Toastmasters

* Social-emotional learning (SEL)

* Arizona’s “No Promo Homo” law repealed in 2019

* PFLAG

* HRC

Full Transcript

00;00;00;28 - 00;00;27;23

Jeanne

From Equality Arizona. You're listening to the Arizona Equals Conversation. I'm Jeanne Woodbury. Each week on the show, I interview an LGBTQ+ person living in Arizona about their lives and their community ties. But this week is a little bit of an exception. My guest today, Chris Tompkins, doesn't actually live in Arizona, but he grew up here and has done a lot of advocacy work in the state.

00;00;28;15 - 00;01;03;11

Jeanne

He has family here and he visits often. So it felt appropriate when he reached out and shared his book to sit down with him for the podcast. And I really enjoyed the conversation that we ended up having. He's the author of a book called Raising LGBTQ Allies: A Parent's Guide to Changing the Messages from the Playground. I've gotten to talk with a few authors on the podcast now, and it's always interesting for me not just to talk about the book and the ideas in their books, but how they ended up making the decision to write a book in the first place.

00;01;04;08 - 00;01;29;19

Jeanne

A lot of people will never do that in their lives, so it's super interesting to me. Chris's path to becoming an author is really moving and it also informs most of the ideas in the book — about the closet, but more than that, everything adults decide shouldn't be talked about and the shame it can make kids feel, especially LGBTQ+ kids.

00;01;30;23 - 00;01;55;21

Jeanne

It's a wonderful conversation, but before we can get to it, there's very little time left for you to mail your ballot. I'm recording this intro on Tuesday, October 25th. That's exactly two weeks before Election Day, but you really only have one week left to mail your ballot. If your ballot's been delivered and maybe it's still sitting on your kitchen table, now's the time to fill it in.

00;01;56;05 - 00;02;24;02

Jeanne

So pause the podcast and go to EqualityArizona.org/vote for our full voter guide. Are you back? Okay. Here's my interview with Chris to listen to on your drive to the mailbox.

00;02;24;02 - 00;02;37;13

Chris

Hi, I'm Chris Tompkins. My pronouns are he/him/his and I'm the author of the book Raising LGBTQ Allies.

00;02;38;03 - 00;02;38;15

Jeanne

Wonderful. Thanks so much.

00;02;38;15 - 00;02;40;26

Chris

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you. Thank you.

00;02;41;08 - 00;02;58;09

Jeanne

When we first got in touch, you were telling me about your book? You sent me a copy, which I thought was really nice. You sent me a really nice note with it, which I don't know, I loved it. I've been reading it and it covers a lot of ground. So I was wondering if you could share a little bit about how that book came to be and how you chose the topics of the book?

00;02;58;10 - 00;03;18;26

Chris

Sure. Yeah, yeah. Thank you. And thank you for having me. And thank you for allowing me to be here and talk, to talk about my book and its message and really, it's kind of interesting because I was reflecting on originally how it started is, is from a question that my six year old nephew at the time asked me back in 2015 and interestingly enough, I was here in Arizona, I live in Los Angeles.

00;03;18;26 - 00;03;37;22

Chris

I was born and raised in Tucson, Arizona. And so I was coming to Arizona for the Equality in Arizona, there was a conference that they had way back in 2015, and I was giving a workshop at that conference. And so I chose to do that workshop or chose to do that conference versus coming home for the holidays.

00;03;38;08 - 00;04;06;29

Chris

So after that conference was done here in Phoenix, I drove down to Tucson and that's when my family had the family function that my nephew asked me a question. And for the listeners who aren't familiar, my mom had a bunch of my family over to her house and a bunch of family friends. And there was a woman, a childhood friend, who was sitting next to me and my nephew, who most kids, you know, they, they think thoughts and they have a question.

00;04;06;29 - 00;04;26;24

Chris

And so they'll just ask it, you know, whether they're at the store or in public. And my nephew at the time, his version of whispering was talking out loud. He didn't really have an idea of how loud his voice was. So he ran over to me and whispered/talked out loud, Uncle Chris, is she your girlfriend?

00;04;27;10 - 00;04;54;03

Chris

And I had just come from, like I mentioned, this conference LGBTQ related. I was giving a workshop on the importance of self-care for advocacy and how that's a really important factor in doing advocacy work and taking care of ourselves. And, and so here I was and I just kind of was really caught off guard. And so that propelled me on a path of asking questions in my own family about, you know, conversations that they're having with their kids.

00;04;54;03 - 00;05;13;16

Chris

Because my nephew was six at the time. And so I just was really surprised by a lot of the parents' response. You know, they felt uncomfortable. There was some discomfort or, I've thought about it, I just don't know what to say or, I don't know what things are okay to say or, Oh, they're not old enough to understand.

00;05;13;16 - 00;05;31;01

Chris

And so this whole notion of kind of old enough to understand was curious. And so that really was the impetus of, of the book. And so I started to do a lot of research and just really wanting to encourage because the way that I thought about it, Jeanne, is that there are, I have a big family and there are a lot of kids in my family.

00;05;31;01 - 00;05;55;29

Chris

And so it wasn't so much about me. It was about right now in our family, there are LGBTQ kids. And if we're not considering that as a possibility, we're just kind of perpetuating the experiences of the closet, which is like, We don't talk about it or it's They're not old enough. Which underneath that I felt was a little bit of like maybe discomfort around what it means to be LGBTQ.

00;05;55;29 - 00;05;59;16

Jeanne

Right, that it's somehow only an adult experience.

00;05;59;16 - 00;06;18;21

Chris

Yeah. Yeah. And so I really, in my own experience of teaching and working and teaching social emotional learning, I just really realized like kids are really insightful and they know stuff. And I remember when I was a kid and you know, I was around six when I discovered that I was gay. And at the time I didn't necessarily know or have a word for it.

00;06;19;14 - 00;06;31;08

Chris

There was, though, an experience that I was having internally that wasn't being, I wasn't seeing it or hearing it reflected back to me from the outside world. And so I just kept it inside.

00;06;31;24 - 00;06;35;24

Jeanne

Is this the kind of book you would have wanted adults in your life to have?

00;06;35;25 - 00;07;04;16

Chris

Absolutely, yeah. Yeah. Because I feel like in my experience and really this is kind of the overarching message and my hope of having these conversations and and inspiring families to have conversations and communities is that, you know, kids are really great interpret— like they're really, really intuitive. They're not so great at interpretation. And so oftentimes when children are young, they're so intuitive and they're picking up on so much, they're like sponges.

00;07;04;26 - 00;07;30;12

Chris

And then sometimes they interpret things, maybe not as what the adult's intentions were, but that can still leave a lasting mark. And so my hope is to kind of build that bridge of being able to help parents and caregivers and families to think about what it would be like from a child— like really to center the children's experiences, get on their level and be curious.

00;07;30;21 - 00;07;51;01

Jeanne

Yeah, I love things that encourage curiosity. I think something that stood out to me when you were telling this story now, and I read it in the book too, but that experience of coming from this LGBT conference and then being asked this question; I feel like sometimes when I have a similar experience, I just think, well, don't you know?

00;07;51;01 - 00;08;00;21

Jeanne

And then for kids, that gets really nuanced in the way you're saying where kids do know things but they don't really know what that means.

00;08;01;01 - 00;08;01;21

Chris

Right, yeah.

00;08;01;21 - 00;08;12;01

Jeanne

Do you find that that's a common experience of just, kind of the switching between spaces and then having those realizations of, wait, why, why aren't you on the same page?

00;08;12;05 - 00;08;39;10

Chris

Yeah, it is. And I appreciate you bringing that up because I feel like, and this is one of my hopes with this conversation, these conversations is this, it's a very nuanced conversation. And there's so many nuances. And I think that sometimes when we talk about, you know, homophobia, transphobia, I feel like that can prevent us from going to the nuances, which I feel like is really the important places to go.

00;08;39;10 - 00;09;07;05

Chris

And so exploring things like heteronormativity and, you know, what was the curiosity, like, What was the curiosity behind my nephew's question that, you know, inspired him to ask that question? I, I share often, you know, because I am really close with my family and my nieces and nephews and I do stuff with them whenever I'm in town. And so I often hear how just going through the day kind of what their world is reflected back to them.

00;09;07;05 - 00;09;27;10

Chris

And you know, an example is just anecdotally, I remember going to the grocery store with my nephew and he has really long eyelashes and we were at the checkout stand and a really kind and sweet woman noticed his long eyelashes and just started to gush over them and she's like, Oh my gosh, you're going to be trouble for the ladies.

00;09;27;23 - 00;09;54;05

Chris

And he was, you know, young, this young, you know, little boy. And and she just started to kind of say, you know, you're going to be trouble for the ladies. I'm sure all the girls have a crush on you. And and that was just such a cute and I was with my mom and my mom was laughing and and I just started to think about, gosh, well, you know, I, when I was his age and I used to get those messages that was like I knew internally that what she was saying didn't match my experience.

00;09;54;05 - 00;10;18;16

Chris

And so then I felt like maybe something was wrong with me or I need to be a certain way. And, and so I feel like that's an example of heteronormativity. And our world is just bombarded with messages like that all the time. And so they inform children's experiences. And so my, my nephew's question was just based off of his own experience of growing up with a mom and a dad.

00;10;18;16 - 00;10;38;00

Chris

And most of the adults in his life have a mom and a dad. And so that's why I feel like when it comes to these nuances, we have to take a proactive approach to include the things that are going on internally with children that may not match the majority of the external world.

00;10;38;00 - 00;10;58;16

Jeanne

The way you talk about the closet is really connected to that idea, where it's not just, people are held there through shame and fear, but sometimes people just think, well, why do we need to talk about it? Why is this important? It becomes like this default assumption for people, and the way your book is written, Raising LGBT Allies.

00;10;58;16 - 00;11;26;24

Jeanne

It's interesting because it's a book that can be really well targeted towards people raising LGBT kids, but also towards people raising straight kids or towards LGBT parents of any kids, which is sort of a challenging tightrope walk, I think, to be kind of all things to all people. But in the way you talk about the closet, it's something that everyone is sort of co-creating or inhabiting on some level.

00;11;26;24 - 00;11;50;12

Chris

Yeah, yeah. That's a really good point and I appreciate that because I feel like what you're describing, I imagine this is kind of my intention with these conversation because you're right, there are kind of different people that I'm wanting to kind of speak to. The connection is not even so much the closet, but this kind of area that adults put things that we don't want to address.

00;11;50;12 - 00;11;50;27

Jeanne

Yeah.

00;11;51;06 - 00;12;10;22

Chris

And I write about in the book this notion of benign neglect and how let's just benign turn the other way. And oftentimes we do that with — I know in my own experience, you know, I've taught young people for six years and I know that sometimes there's a question that I just I don't know, like, where did that come from?

00;12;10;22 - 00;12;33;29

Chris

You know? And so sometimes when adults aren't prepared, they'll put that in this this box of Let's not talk about it, or Let's deflect. And that's kind of the closet. That's, that's where in that space, it's like what I refer to the metaphor in the book that I kind of describe is like underneath the bed.

00;12;34;02 - 00;12;56;22

Chris

And so, you know, oftentimes we can say our room is clean and we picked up our clothes and wiped down the dressers and dusted off the shelves. And then we look under the bed and there's all this stuff underneath there. I mean, I know my one of my nieces, she actually is like, I went under her bed and there was like plates from food that she, you know, snacks that she had taken in her room.

00;12;56;22 - 00;13;27;08

Chris

And and so that's kind of the analogy here is that there's this area that we often put conversations, whether it has to do with race, racism, addiction, family addiction, gender, sexuality, all of those things we kind of put because maybe we haven't done the work in our life that we're comfortable or we don't know. And so the idea here is that, you know, one of the things I talk about, and this is for the LGBTQ parents and people like myself who's a gay uncle, you know, what role do I play?

00;13;27;08 - 00;13;56;04

Chris

You know, and I can only take others as far as I've gone myself in my own life. And so the idea here is that if we can really center children's experiences because they have so much going on inside. And so just really giving them the permission to be able to ask the questions. And sometimes if we don't know, we don't know, but not to like put it in this bucket because then the interpretation is that, oh, that's bad, we don't talk about that.

00;13;56;24 - 00;14;12;19

Jeanne

Something I've seen on a policy level and on a personal level is that a lot of the harm that comes about towards LGBT people is really intimately connected to the way that people just don't take kids seriously.

00;14;12;19 - 00;14;13;10

Chris

Yes.

00;14;13;26 - 00;14;16;08

Jeanne

They don't really treat them as real people with their own thoughts.

00;14;16;08 - 00;14;16;17

Chris

Right.

00;14;16;27 - 00;14;30;11

Jeanne

And their own desire to learn and grow. For whatever reason, kids get treated as, just well, they're not quite there yet and we'll, we'll just deal with them later. And for now we just need to kind of manage them.

00;14;30;17 - 00;14;31;03

Chris

It's true.

00;14;31;13 - 00;14;38;13

Jeanne

Is that something that you saw as a kid or something that you've been more aware of now as an adult seeing how kids are treated?

00;14;38;13 - 00;14;58;14

Chris

Yeah, I think it's, I mean it's, that's such a such a good point and that's so important to be able to even talk about because, you know, one of the things I even remember, I wrote about this in one of my chapters in my book, is I remember going to this this training, sexual harassment training at the organization that I teach with.

00;14;58;14 - 00;15;23;20

Chris

And they were describing all these laws that are in place to protect people in the workplace, and everything they were saying, I'm thinking, well, that stuff happens with kids at homes, you know, and where are the laws about that, you know, and as far as like protecting kids and if they have, you know, if they come out of the closet or if their parents find out that they're LGBTQ.

00;15;23;20 - 00;15;47;23

Chris

And I remember approaching the lawyer and asking him, you know, how how can you have these laws that work here for adults? And then you apply the same situation in homes and there's nothing really that is, you know, protecting the children, really. And he talked about the difficulties with with children's rights and that children don't have rights in this country.

00;15;47;25 - 00;16;07;04

Chris

And, you know, a lot of places around the world. And you see that you know, with custody battles and, you know, things like that. It's really unfortunate. And I think that that's really my hope is to be able to give voice. I mean, really, this book came from also my own experience of what it was like not having that voice and not being able to express that voice.

00;16;07;26 - 00;16;22;20

Jeanne

Something that I've seen is that, you know, you're trying to figure out what role you should play, how to open up these conversations that people aren't having, and then not having a voice as a kid. Something that you do now. I mean, even just mentioning that conference you were here in town for, but I know you've spoken at TEDx events.

00;16;22;20 - 00;16;42;14

Jeanne

You do a lot of education. It seems like you're doing a lot of education to different audiences in different settings. That's really amazing work. I think it's really needed and I wanted to get an idea of how you got into that and how you got started with that approach, which you know, is a path, you know, a lot of people are just afraid of public speaking in the first place.

00;16;42;16 - 00;16;42;23

Chris

Yeah.

00;16;43;08 - 00;17;11;10

Chris

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, thank you. I appreciate that. I really, honestly it was inspired by that question my nephew asked me and the conversations that I started to have in my family. And, you know, just to give you an example, you know, my mom who loves and supports me, you know, when I asked her if my sister and brother had talked to their kids, her response was, they're not old enough to understand.

00;17;11;28 - 00;17;31;07

Chris

And I can't tell you how many movies I've seen, still see where there's, you know, little kid who shows, you know, six year old little kid with a six year old, a little six year old little girl and a six year old little boy who they have a childhood crush. And everyone gushes over like, oh, so, so cute.

00;17;31;20 - 00;18;14;05

Chris

And how that's just normalized. And so when it comes to considering that, oh, well, they my nieces and nephews have a gay uncle, what does that mean? Oh, they're not old enough to understand that, but it's perfectly okay for them to understand that, my nephew is curious of whether or not I have a girlfriend. And so that I share that because I think that that's really what I'm trying to encourage, is that we can love our family members and still contribute to this area, this benign neglect kind of sort of bucket that we don't want to put things in because we have our own discomfort around what it means.

00;18;14;14 - 00;18;38;22

Chris

And so how I got started was really I felt like I found this sort of antidote or something that could help families and I just wanted to share it. And so personally, I did. I had fear of public speaking. That was one of my biggest things. And so I started to go to this organization, maybe some of your listeners have heard called Toastmasters.

00;18;38;29 - 00;18;41;11

Jeanne

You're the second person on the podcast to mention Toastmasters.

00;18;41;11 - 00;19;03;02

Chris

Yeah. Wow. I mean, it's an incredible group. And so I literally started to go to Toastmasters every Tuesday morning at 6:30 a.m. Yeah, I was at the Denny's and I used to go there and we would meet in the back room and and it was really amazing because I signed up because I wanted to practice public speaking, but I didn't realize that you have to write a speech before you give one.

00;19;04;04 - 00;19;28;15

Chris

And so that's really where I discovered writing and I just felt like I just had something I wanted to share. And and that's really how I got started. Is that to be a Toastmaster you have to give ten speeches in order to become a Competent Communicator. That's like a button that you get. And each speech has its own kind of like, one's an introduction speech one is a sit more sales, like.

00;19;28;16 - 00;19;29;12

Jeanne

Just different functions.

00;19;29;20 - 00;19;39;28

Chris

Yes, serves like a different role. And so each of the speeches that I wrote was, I felt like it was a message or like a talk or something I wanted to give and help people.

00;19;40;18 - 00;19;52;20

Jeanne

And then, you know, taking that, you've got this body of work to some extent, you wanted to take those speeches out and actually give them. Where did you get started in terms of just finding an audience?

00;19;52;20 - 00;20;12;08

Chris

Yeah. Yeah, that that was the the TEDx talk was, you know, after I started to, a lot of my my speeches turned into articles that were published. And so then that started to come, you know, get around and then I just started giving workshops. I live in Los Angeles, and so I was doing a lot of work teaching social emotional learning.

00;20;12;19 - 00;20;36;18

Chris

And so kind of even what I was seeing with the youth that I was working with, the curriculum that I that I, was, is about, is about social emotional learning, about how kids can bring voice to their emotions. And so I was seeing that although it wasn't specific to LGBTQ, there are all of these things that kids were wanting to talk about and they just didn't feel like they could in their homes.

00;20;37;16 - 00;20;47;28

Chris

And so that's kind of where I started to merge the two and then give like workshops and presentations locally. And then came the TEDx Talk.

00;20;48;10 - 00;20;49;00

Jeanne

That's really cool.

00;20;49;00 - 00;20;49;11

Chris

Yeah.

00;20;49;26 - 00;21;12;17

Jeanne

You've mentioned teaching SEL, social emotional learning, a few times. That's something that's really cool under fire. As innocuous as it is, it's been thrown on the bandwagon with critical race theory as something that certain people have a real grudge against being taught in schools, which is remarkable. Have you seen any of that hostility at all?

00;21;12;17 - 00;21;31;01

Chris

Yeah, no, I haven't. And I don't know if that's maybe… I mentioned I live in Los Angeles, so that, it's more I mean, it's really widely accepted there. I think what I would hear with that, what I would be curious is, it's maybe not understood.

00;21;31;01 - 00;21;33;06

Jeanne

Yeah, yeah no. They have no idea what it is. They're just mad about it.

00;21;33;06 - 00;21;52;18

Chris

Yeah. Yeah. And I find that, I mean even when I say to people SEL, unless you know what SEL means, you're like, What is that? And I mean, I've been teaching it for six years and I, even some of the teachers who teach it are like, how do we explain? You know, it's kind of really it's incredible.

00;21;52;18 - 00;22;14;13

Chris

It's it's it's so, so helpful. One of the things that, and this is another thing that I started to do just to really bring my own message and like wanting to share my story is there's an organization called PFLAG and I'm sure your listeners probably have heard of it and they have speaker bureaus. And so they do.

00;22;14;19 - 00;22;35;12

Chris

They do a lot of, PFLAG serves a lot of different functions for families to support them. And one of them in the advocacy realm is they have speaker bureaus, some of the larger chapters. And so in Los Angeles they have a large speakers bureau. And so companies, organizations, schools, will invite PFLAG speakers to go in and speak and share their personal stories.

00;22;35;12 - 00;22;55;08

Chris

And it's amazing and I'm drawing the parallel of social emotional learning is because a lot of the schools that would go into a speaker's bureau for is the school would contact PFLAG because there was anti LGBTQ bullying that was happening at the school. And so they wanted to bring a group in to kind of help share stories.

00;22;55;20 - 00;23;19;00

Chris

And in my experience of doing that for almost eight years of the PFALG speakers bureau, there would be a classroom of kids. And there was the previous week a kid getting bullied for being LGBTQ. And then that week we're there and we, literally the whole panel, the structure of it is that each person on the panel, there's usually five speakers.

00;23;19;15 - 00;23;50;12

Chris

It can vary and you each share for 5 minutes your story, whether you're trans, whether you're nonbinary, lesbian, gay, and you just share 5 minutes of your personal story. And then at the end they open it up to questions. And I cannot tell you how many times you would just see the breakthroughs that would occur, because when kids can hear a person's experience, they may not relate to the details, but they know what it's like to have a crush.

00;23;50;12 - 00;24;08;18

Chris

They know what it's like to feel rejection. They know what it's like to be disappointed. So I just started to see these dialogs occur, and that's the same thing that happens with social emotional learning, is that oftentimes there's a school that's having a lot of challenges, and so then we'll go in and run a social emotional learning curriculum.

00;24;08;18 - 00;24;31;21

Chris

And our program is, there are three phases, and it's designed to compliment an academic school year. And so it's the same kind of thing, where the kids are being able to talk about things, that is helping them go out into their day to day lives and experience, you know, the drugs and alcohol and sex that, you know, the kids, you know, are having that —

00;24;31;21 - 00;24;35;21

Chris

Again, we don't want to look at or address and we just turn away from it.

00;24;36;21 - 00;24;55;24

Jeanne

It makes me think, you know, you've done a lot of speaking in Los Angeles. I realized when I brought up the hostility and backlash to social emotional learning that it's not really a thing there the way it is here. You've done some speeches and presentations and education here in Arizona too, at University of Arizona, I think. You grew up here.

00;24;55;24 - 00;25;05;11

Jeanne

You grew up in Tucson. What do you see when you're going back and forth in terms of the messages people need to hear and maybe their responses to that?

00;25;05;11 - 00;25;33;09

Chris

Yeah, yeah. That's a really good question. I think that in my experience, you know, one of the things that I'm really grateful to be able to even talk to you and share more specifically in Arizona is that, you know, we sometimes think that we've come a long way in certain areas. And, and, that kind of prevents us from really exploring kind of the underneath the bed stuff.

00;25;33;16 - 00;25;52;18

Chris

And so, you know, just to kind of, I guess anecdotally, you know, recently, just with everything that's going on in Florida and the anti LGBTQ legislation and don't say gay and people are, you know, you know and I live in L.A. and so the conversations I hear are, I can't believe that, you know, there's a don't say gay and that's still a thing.

00;25;52;18 - 00;26;06;13

Chris

And I'm like, I grew up in Arizona, and it wasn't until just 2019, a few years ago, that there was a similar bill on the legislation that prevented schools from having conversations around LGBTQ, specifically.

00;26;06;13 - 00;26;07;02

Jeanne

That's right. Yeah.

00;26;07;02 - 00;26;46;23

Chris

You know, and so that that makes an impact, you know, it's not, you know, when you take a law of the books, it doesn't just immediately, it doesn't just — those laws created like roots that go down and are in, you know, we can't see them. And so it's helpful, you know, just to kind of share, you know, some of the things that in my, the social emotional learning curriculum is, is it's all about uncovering like our negative thoughts or negative things that, you know, maybe contribute to low self esteem and lack of self-confidence and helping empower kids and give them their voice and help them to connect with, you know, their values.

00;26;46;25 - 00;27;15;26

Chris

And I can't tell you how many classes I've taught. And I'm hearing kids talk about, you know, because one of the first classes we help them uncover their negative beliefs about school, success, family, their bodies, and money, just basic kind of things. And we always, you know, I'll have a class discussion where I'll pick a word or a topic and then have a discussion.

00;27;15;26 - 00;27;42;02

Chris

These kids are like three generations different than myself, and yet I'm hearing the same things that they believe about money or what they've heard about money. And so I use that as an analogy to describe the things like, when we have these laws in schools that prevent administrators from including LGBTQ in conversations, I was a teenager at those schools.

00;27;42;02 - 00;27;51;21

Chris

I sat in the classrooms and didn't see myself or hear myself reflected back. And so then that contributes to that bucket of things that we don't want to talk about.

00;27;52;01 - 00;27;55;15

Jeanne

And it gets stuck there. Even when the laws are off the books.

00;27;55;15 - 00;28;19;03

Chris

Right, exactly. Because that's a, yes. That's part of our belief system. That's, you know, my book, the subtitle is called A Parent's Guide to Changing the Messages from the Playground. And that's the analogy that I use to describe the subconscious beliefs that we pick up from our families and our culture and society, and that contributes, that's all contributed by the influences that we have.

00;28;19;22 - 00;28;39;22

Jeanne

I really liked what you were saying about the way we can get held up by our own sort of false confidence in progress. We have had a lot of progress, but it's not everything. And I do see those people saying, wow, I can't believe this is happening. And, also someone who grew up in Arizona, I feel like, why can't you believe it?

00;28;39;22 - 00;29;02;29

Jeanne

It's all around us. So, you know, you've written this book; it has a lot of ideas about what it means to be gay, what it means to be trans. Even the language people use, you really at certain points get into the nuance of really specific words and how to think about better ways to say things. That's something that's always evolving.

00;29;03;02 - 00;29;13;22

Jeanne

So when you think about how not to get held up by, Okay, we've done it. We've gotten here. How do you keep learning and growing and changing your own perspectives?

00;29;13;22 - 00;29;36;17

Chris

Yeah. Yeah, that's such a good. That's such a good point, too, because on one hand, language is really important. And I have a whole section specifically about why language matters. And, if we're, if we get stuck, sometimes I know in my own experience that sometimes I don't want to offend someone or I don't want to say it wrong, so then I won't say anything.

00;29;36;17 - 00;29;57;19

Chris

And that just prevents the conversation. And so it's kind of trying to find, again, the nuances of really being able to. One of the messages that I hope that my book conveys is that we're going to make mistakes. Parenting? Oh, my goodness. It is not easy. Being an uncle. It's not easy. being a teacher, not easy. Being an advocate, not easy.

00;29;57;19 - 00;30;21;25

Chris

All of these things aren't easy because they're requiring us to step into realms of vulnerability, and so what I hope and even from this conversation is that we're going to make mistakes. And that's totally okay. That's part of the process. And we're going to make ruptures. And where there's a rupture, there's an opportunity for repair. And that creates more healing and even stronger relationships that we have.

00;30;22;03 - 00;30;37;07

Chris

You know, if we're able to make that repair. And so I want to encourage families not to have so much fear about trying to be perfect or get it right, that prevents them from doing anything or saying anything.

00;30;37;22 - 00;30;53;12

Jeanne

It sounds like what you're saying is sort of that, you know, language is a tool to get things out of that box. And if we're getting hung up too much on, Am I going to use the right words? then that can actually keep us from talking about it at all and perpetuate it that.

00;30;53;13 - 00;31;11;24

Chris

Yeah. And I think, you know, in my experience, similar to heteronormativity, you know, like what I, what I kind of try and describe heteronormativity for folks is that it's often not something that you can necessarily I mean, you could see it like in images and, you know, you can see it, but it's really something that's felt. It's like humidity, it's like the weather.

00;31;11;24 - 00;31;38;03

Chris

You feel it. And so that's kind of how language is. And so for instance, I can't tell you how many times I've read articles or I've seen articles like, you know, I'll pitch a story and they'll change the title, you know, that something more like clickable or you know, and words like gay lifestyle or homosexuality, you know, things like that.

00;31;38;03 - 00;32;02;06

Chris

And just for those of, you know, that are aware, there are certain words that are kind of problematic to use outside of like of like clinical educational context. And so I had a conversation with my uncle recently who's a mental health professional. And, you know, he mentioned, we were talking and he was, he was saying, preference, sexual preference.

00;32;02;06 - 00;32;19;14

Chris

And I'm, I wrote a book. I have conversations. You know, he's aware of my book and, you know, and so it's ongoing and it's kind of where we get to just continue to invite and also not get to get stuck.

00;32;19;23 - 00;32;35;27

Jeanne

Right. The context of the words that get used determines, you know, the meaning of them and the feeling of them, right. If you're using clinical words outside of a clinical context, you're implicitly communicating that being gay or being trans is a clinical phenomenon.

00;32;35;28 - 00;32;36;10

Chris

Right.

00;32;36;27 - 00;32;51;01

Jeanne

But also, you know, intracommunity and outside of the community, different words feel very different. If a straight person says some things, that sends a very different message than if a gay person says the same words.

00;32;51;01 - 00;32;51;13

Chris

Right.

00;32;51;26 - 00;33;10;17

Jeanne

Something you wrote about, though, is the mistakes we perpetuate between each other as LGBT people. That's something I think a lot of people ignore, because we're all traumatized in different ways, and trauma behavior plays out with that kind of internecine conflict.

00;33;10;17 - 00;33;11;03

Chris

Yeah.

00;33;11;03 - 00;33;20;12

Jeanne

What was it that really connected with you on on that idea that, you know, you were able to get into the analysis of it and include it in your book?

00;33;20;12 - 00;34;01;12

Chris

Yeah. Thank you for asking that. I think that's really also one of my big passions, too, is that I recently finished my Master's of Arts in Clinical Psychology with a specialization in LGBT affirmative psychology. And so I did my clinical training at an LGBTQ mental health community center. And, you know, one of the really important things that as a clinician I'm assessing for that we don't often talk about outside of a clinical context in the community, is the internalized shame that we experience as a result of those conversations that we didn't have, that our families or communities put into this bucket of like, we don't want to talk about.

00;34;01;26 - 00;34;34;24

Chris

And so then children internalize that as I did something wrong, I am wrong. It's, and it becomes shame that we carry inside and then that can cause clinically significant challenges as adults. And so, you know, there's this notion of, you know, the oppressed become the oppressor. And so then in our own communities we're tending to project out on to others our own internalized shame that we still carry unconsciously that's unresolved.

00;34;34;24 - 00;34;57;09

Chris

And so the idea kind of going full circle back to that, that workshop that I gave in the beginning of the importance of inner advocacy and really tending to our own hearts so that we can be effective specifically as it relates to the advocacy or the work that we do out in the world, or just even have friendships and relationships with other members of the LGBTQ community.

00;34;57;28 - 00;35;35;11

Jeanne

Self advocacy is something people don't talk a lot about. Yeah, I've mostly heard it in the context of like disability rights, but it really is so central to the experience of being a queer kid or a trans kid. Being able to express your needs and your feelings in a confident and honest way is one of the best skills you can ever have for anything, whether you have to take that into a committee meeting and tell that to lawmakers or just, trying to form friendships and trying to form relationships.

00;35;35;11 - 00;35;35;15

Chris

Yeah.

00;35;35;21 - 00;35;36;02

Chris

Yeah.

00;35;36;19 - 00;35;51;27

Jeanne

I think it's really cool that you're focusing on that. I know — I've been able to talk to some other psychologists who specialize in LGBT care and that's I think, a common theme, but it is not something that has as much awareness in the wider community.

00;35;51;27 - 00;36;10;21

Chris

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's I mean that's, so I'm glad you're saying that because I mean, it's so, it is so important and I think it's part and parcel of the work. And I, in my own experience, you know, I can just share is that, you know, when I came out of the closet, I immersed myself in LGBTQ advocacy work.

00;36;10;21 - 00;36;30;08

Chris

I was living in Tucson. I would drive up to Phoenix because Phoenix had a large HRC presence. And I just remember jumping right in. And in fact that was one of the reasons I moved out to Los Angeles, was to work for a large LGBTQ organization. And what I didn't do is tend to my heart and do the more inner advocacy work.

00;36;30;08 - 00;36;56;07

Chris

I was so focused on outward advocacy that I bypassed that part. And so what's made me more effective in my work and more empowered is that I've tended to my heart and I've done that inner work to help myself become more effective out in the world. And so because I feel like that's really where the change, not to say that change can't happen, you know, anywhere.

00;36;56;07 - 00;37;11;15

Chris

But I really do feel that, you know, one of the messages of my book is that I've said this I think I said this earlier, is that we can only take others as far as we've gone ourselves. And really that to me is like life changing from an advocacy perspective.

00;37;12;01 - 00;37;19;20

Jeanne

What does that inner work look like for you? I think this is something where a lot of people get into this work because it's so important to them and then they get burnt out.

00;37;19;20 - 00;37;20;07

Chris

Yes.

00;37;20;15 - 00;37;33;25

Jeanne

And, you know, it's important to them, but they put themselves last. And I think that's a lot of our listeners, to be honest. So I think if you have things you can share about the inner work you've done, I'd love to hear it.

00;37;34;06 - 00;38;20;29

Chris

Yeah, I for me, I just had a conversation recently with with someone who was talking about, we were talking about self-care, self-love and he was like, I don't, like what does that mean? Like going on a hike? I don't know. And I kind of laughed. And, you know, I think that for me, it began by just really tending to, tapping into my own personal needs and carving out time to connect with myself, whether that was through a spiritual practice like prayer, meditation, and really as if, like, I need to eat, I need to drink water on a daily basis.

00;38;20;29 - 00;38;39;18

Chris

I kind of need to do that on a daily basis as well. And so for me, that's kind of how it began. And then it's turned into this thing where I'm really, I think because of that work, I'm a much more effective advocate because I am able to contain my energy.

00;38;40;03 - 00;39;02;04

Jeanne

Your spirituality infuses a lot of the book, I think. You shared a really touching letter from your mom that I think is really connected to her spiritual experience. People can read the book. I think, you know, that's a great thing for people to do. But could you share a little bit about your relationship to spirituality?

00;39;02;04 - 00;39;16;06

Jeanne

You know, having religious parents is something that can really disrupt that sometimes. And it seems like it's come around and become this really healing thing, not only for you, but for your mom and therefore, you know, for your family in a lot of ways.

00;39;16;06 - 00;39;46;19

Chris

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you for asking. Yes, religion was definitely part of my experience. And so this journey has really been a journey of rediscovering a higher power and my relationship with the universe. Going from this kid who grew up with this persecutory God who, literally I was going to go to hell, I mean, that was an actual thing that I thought could happen if I didn't change or if I didn't become better.

00;39;46;19 - 00;40;11;21

Chris

And when I say better, I mean like the best little boy that I thought my parents wanted me to be. And so that was a long process. And through that process, my spirituality strengthened and my relationship with a higher power and my relationship with a God of my own understanding. And, you know, when I say God, whatever works for you.

00;40;11;21 - 00;40;35;14

Chris

And I think that that was part of my journey. And through that process, my mom also because she's a very, she comes from a very religious kind of background. Still to this day, is very religious. And she's been able to reestablish her relationship with a higher power and really explore the damage that can, that — not can be done —

00;40;35;14 - 00;40;44;04

Chris

But that is done on behalf of religion to the LGBTQ community and members of the LGBTQ community specifically.

00;40;44;26 - 00;41;06;09

Jeanne

I think that's a really great place to wrap up. Honestly, I love to talk to people about that aspect of their journey. I think for people in Arizona, it's really common. I'm sure for people around the country it's really common. So seeing people who've been able to come through it and heal, not just internally but in relation to family members, which is often where a lot of the harm.

00;41;06;09 - 00;41;14;20

Jeanne

Happens around religion and spirituality. I always love to hear those stories and hopefully for the listeners it's something that can be impactful.

00;41;14;22 - 00;41;33;28

Chris

Yeah. Yeah, I hope so as well because it's such an, I think just such an important part of the journey and it's where I see the most healing that can come. Because really it's, it's allowing ourselves to love ourselves more fully and more, I think empowered.

00;41;34;15 - 00;41;36;11

Jeanne

Yeah. Well, thanks for talking with me on the podcast.

00;41;36;19 - 00;41;39;27

Chris

Thank you for having me. Yeah, thank you.

00;41;39;27 - 00;42;11;22

Jeanne

Thanks again to Chris for being my guest on the podcast this week. And thanks to all of you for listening. We've got some great ways to get involved in the work coming up soon, including our Spectrum Academy event this Saturday. The focus of the event is a storytelling for advocacy exercise that I think is a blast. It can be a little challenging and it requires some real critical thinking, but it's great and it's really in line with the kind of storytelling we do on this podcast.

00;42;11;22 - 00;42;25;00

Jeanne

So definitely check it out. I'd love to see you there. That's Saturday, October 29. Thanks again for listening and I'll talk to you next week.