The Arizona Equals Conversation

On this week’s episode of the Arizona Equals Conversation, Jeanne talks with Stephan Kingsley about their shared experiences with neurodiversity, transition, and homeschooling, and how each of these informs his work as an educator. Curiosity is a skill! Exercise yours today.

Links & Show Notes

* Against Algebra, by Temple Grandin

* The curb cut effect

* Project-based learning

* Victory Institute

* Section 504 Accommodation Plan

Full Episode Transcript

00;00;00;24 - 00;01;44;06

Jeanne

From Equality Arizona, you're listening to the Arizona Equals Conversation. I'm Jeanne Woodbury, and each week on the show I talk with one of the quarter million queer people living in Arizona. It's my goal to represent as many of those experiences as possible, and if you're interested in being a guest, I want to talk to you. You can fill out a form on our website at EqualityArizona.org/Stories, or just email me. I'm [email protected]. Today on the show, I sit down with Stephan Kingsley. He's running for school board in Tempe, but this isn't a conversation with him as a political candidate. He's a neurodiverse trans man, and I found that we really had a lot in common. I'm autistic; I'm trans; I'm in politics. But beyond that, I think we think about a lot of things in pretty similar ways. And part of that comes from our shared experience of being homeschooled. It was really fascinating to talk with him about education from those shared perspectives that we both have. I loved our conversation that we got into about curiosity and taking risks, and I really don't want to spend too much time in the intro getting ahead of that because it's really just worth listening to the actual conversation. So with that in mind, I'll let Stephan introduce himself and get the episode started.

00;01;49;03 - 00;02;02;14

Stephan

Hi, I'm Stephan Kingsley. I am a neurodiverse person and educator, and who knows what else, because I'm interested in so many different things.

00;02;02;14 - 00;02;03;12

Jeanne

Wonderful. Thanks.

00;02;03;12 - 00;02;22;09

Stephan

Yeah.

Jeanne

Well, thanks for being on the podcast. I think it's really fun to talk to people who are in politics. We get a range of people on the show. I know that you're running for school board. That's something a lot of people don't pay attention to. How long have you been involved in education in general?

00;02;22;09 - 00;02;52;23

Stephan

For over 15 years. Most of my experience and special training is working with English language learners. So I've had the privilege of being able to teach so many students from different countries, which I absolutely love. English teacher by trade. And then yeah, I've — Teaching is something that has always made me really happy, and just working with students and building those relationships.

00;02;52;23 - 00;02;57;15

Jeanne

Is teaching something that's in your family? How did you kind of discover that?

00;02;57;15 - 00;03;04;14

Stephan

Yeah, there's kind of a fun story behind that. My dad has been a teacher for, I want to say, 41 years now.

00;03;04;14 - 00;03;04;28

Jeanne

Oh, wow.

00;03;05;01 - 00;03;29;17

Stephan

And you know, that conversation you have when you're growing up like, hey, what should I do with my life? You know. My dad noticed how I like to help my younger brothers and sisters or some of the other younger people that I would go to church with. And he would say, You make a great teacher. And I looked at him and I'm like, Dad, you're a teacher. Like, I don't want to, you know, do what you do. Cause it's not cool when you're younger, you know?

00;03;29;17 - 00;03;30;09

Jeanne

Yeah.

00;03;30;09 - 00;04;34;19

Stephan

But when some circumstances changed in a job and they had outsourced my department and I was looking for a job, there was a position in an English language classroom available in Mesa, which was the school district my dad taught in. And so I took that position and I was in charge of giving the initial testing for placement for English language learners. So, this student is proficient; you know, where should they be placed. And the teacher I was working with was awesome. And she found out that I was thinking about possibly going into teaching. She said, really? Well, tomorrow, this is the vocabulary that we're doing so, knock it out. Go ahead and teach.

Jeanne

It's your lesson.

Stephan

Yeah. I was like, really? Like, tomorrow. And I, when I got up and I started working with the kids, like, every cell in my body came alive, and I just felt like, wow, this is my calling in one form or another, so. I love educating people.

00;04;34;19 - 00;04;37;24

Jeanne

What industry were you in before?

00;04;37;24 - 00;04;43;10

Stephan

Well, quite a few. I was homeschooled through high school.

00;04;43;10 - 00;04;44;16

Jeanne

Oh okay. Me too.

00;04;44;16 - 00;05;10;21

Stephan

Oh, cool. Yeah, not a lot of people have that experience. So I ended up taking the state GED at 16, and I've worked two or three jobs ever since. I do live with autism and that was diagnosed when I was a bit older, which I'm thankful for because it really confirmed a lot of things. But then that also meant that I struggled a lot until that diagnosis

00;05;10;21 - 00;05;14;14

Jeanne

Because you didn't have the tools at your disposal?

00;05;14;14 - 00;05;54;02

Stephan

Correct. Because I wasn't identified and I wasn't able to work with any therapists or anything like that, I really had to kind of depend on my own coping styles — some that were healthy, some that were not as healthy. Because there's so much pressure to — the term is to mask — and really kind of blend in. And I started taking college classes part time because of that. And I tested into the lowest math and reading comprehension classes offered at a community college.

00;05;54;02 - 00;05;55;23

Jeanne

Here in the Maricopa County System?.

00;05;55;23 - 00;05;59;14

Stephan

Mmhm. Yeah, it was Mesa Community College.

00;05;59;14 - 00;06;00;15

Jeanne

Okay, yeah I love MCC.

00;06;00;15 - 00;06;28;12

Stephan

Yeah. And I wanted to start there because I knew that I may not be where I was supposed to be. And that was because of working full time. So I started in the food industry, I worked in the health industry. I went to technical school to become a medical assistant. I thought originally when I was going to go to college, like, okay, I'll do nursing or I'll do, you know, be a doctor. And then I started taking chemistry and I was just bored. I'm sure I probably could have done it if I had applied myself.

00;06;28;16 - 00;06;30;25

Jeanne

Right, it just wasn't as interesting as you wanted it to be.

00;06;30;25 - 00;07;22;11

Stephan

Not at all. So just decided to go part time and kind of focus still on working so that I could pay for school and oh my gosh, when I was at ASU, I worked for parking enforcement, worked for dispatch in the police department there. I've just done a lot of different things. My students always used to joke like, Mr. Kingsley, what have you not done? And I'm like, That list is probably shorter. So yeah, I graduated with my bachelor's at 29 and I was just happy to have that done before 30. I was constantly berating myself, you know, about the fact that I even got it done so late, because I come from a family of eight kids and a lot of my siblings had completed college earlier.

00;07;22;11 - 00;07;24;06

Jeanne

Where are you in the eight?

00;07;24;06 - 00;07;28;26

Stephan

I am right smack dab in the middle; and I actually have a twin as well

00;07;28;26 - 00;07;35;16

Jeanne

Oh, wow. So I'm curious, when did you get your diagnosis?

00;07;35;16 - 00;07;36;14

Stephan

For autism?

00;07;36;14 - 00;07;37;02

Jeanne

For autism, yeah

00;07;37;02 - 00;07;39;20

Stephan

At 40.

00;07;39;20 - 00;07;47;19

Jeanne

That's a long time to wait, especially going through that whole process and potentially, like you're saying, kind of kicking yourself for not being faster.

00;07;48;09 - 00;08;04;20

Jeanne

I think that most people with autism — or whatever the language I think that people choose to use, I often just say I'm autistic, and I know some people like different things — but for any of us on the spectrum, the pace of our lives is just different in a lot of ways,

00;08;04;20 - 00;09;10;28

Stephan

It is. And I'm thankful for the fact that, I mean, when I was reflecting, I did have a lot of tension in my body though. I'm very, I was trying to describe it to one of the school counselors at the last high school that I worked at and with sensory things, it's like everything visually and audible, as well as smells, like all of those are really heightened and everything in your environment comes rushing at you at one time. And it's like, how do you process that? How do you deal with that? When it comes to processing conversation, the psychologist that I was working with that diagnosed me said I have about a 20 second delay, like, and it's hard sometimes for people to to catch that, but I do. And then, well, I scored probably the lowest on like the social skills, you know, because I can't, it's very hard for me to read body language, facial expressions, anything.

00;09;10;28 - 00;09;27;02

Jeanne

Yeah. I remember when I had a whole assessment, I had scores that surprised me in terms of just being like, Oh, I didn't realize I was, I had that much of a deficit in that area. I think a lot of that comes down to masking like, like you were talking about.

00;09;27;02 - 00;13;54;17

Stephan

I think it kind of revealed also that we don't really have a good way to assess adults. They used a lot of the things that they will use for children. Thankfully, my mom is still living and she is, she has a great memory about things. But then they also interviewed and had my other siblings do tests as well. And it isn't necessarily uncommon for someone on the spectrum to also have ADHD, which I also have, and then to be diagnosed with a mental illness, I guess, if you want to call it. So I do live with bipolar as well. And one of my neuropsychologists kind of explained part of the reason why sometimes that was exacerbated was because of the fact that I didn't have the services that I needed. So in other words, my coping skills, it's you know, there's a lot of education that still needs to be done on bipolar and mental illness and how that all works. But, neurologically just the way my brain is wired, understanding that I'm autistic and whatnot, I wish that it could have been identified earlier so that I could have started the healthier patterns that someone has to do when they have bipolar. But I'm grateful now I'm starting to do those and, you know, with medication and, you know, but it's also given me a lot of insight for when I work with students. So autistic empathy is a whole 'nother subject, too, which is fascinating, right? Because someone who's autistic portrays empathy in a very different way. And for me, with my students, I would — just one look at them. I would usually greet every single student, every single day. I would shake their hands and just one look in their eyes, and I would get a feeling and a sense of exactly where they were and what it was that they needed. And sometimes eye contact for me is hard because of what I feel when I look into someone's eyes.

Jeanne

Because it's overwhelming on some level?

Stephan

Yes. And that's mostly because I have a feeling of what they're feeling. But the words for when I describe it and/or reach out, you know, to help, sometimes it's not as obvious to others that that's what I'm trying to do. Students would always get it, though, and I think the way that I also tried to cope in school specifically helps me be a better teacher. I think I kind of realized like I needed to break things down into very concrete steps. I needed to figure out where I was more confident and what I was good at as opposed to where I struggled. So for example, in math, I already knew that I sucked at algebra. In fact I was listening to a — I can't remember if it's a TED Talk or a podcast — of Temple Grandin. And she mentioned that she's horrible at algebra and I started crying. It was like all this energy was really releasing out of my body, just being like, It's okay that you're horrible at algebra and that you have strengths in other areas. Because it took me four times to pass my intermediate algebra class, and this would be an algebra class that students would take in high school, you know. Because again, this is at the community college, just entry level. And sometimes my students, when they would be frustrated with algebra, I can really relate to that. So I could share my story about that or, some of my kids, I would just see, you know, their brains worked a little bit differently. I could work with their strengths and it works so much better because it's often typical and especially in my experience to beat myself up for all the stuff that I don't know how to do or that I don't do well, or that I can't possibly blend in, you know, because of my autism. So I think it's just given me a lot of insight in how to work with students and quite honestly, what is good for students who are on the spectrum in the classroom is good for every single student, so.

00;13;54;17 - 00;14;00;23

Jeanne

Yeah, it's kind of like the curb-cut idea of, accessible design is better for everyone.

00;14;00;23 - 00;14;01;24

Stephan

Absolutely.

00;14;01;24 - 00;14;24;03

Jeanne

I think what I've found is that because I have to be more conscious of the way I process and categorize information, it's something that helps me to be a better communicator or educator. Not that I'm an educator now. I've taught a little bit in the past, but it helps me to convey that to other people, and it's just because I have to be more conscious of it on my own time, for my own sake.

00;14;24;03 - 00;14;40;27

Stephan

Yeah, well, I would argue that you are an educator, maybe not formally, but to go through that reflective process, to be able to sit with yourself, then put it into words where you can at least give someone some insight. Yeah, you're definitely an educator.

00;14;40;27 - 00;14;48;27

Jeanne

Well, I'm curious to hear a little bit about your experience being homeschooled — being homeschooled by a teacher, I assume your dad was pretty involved?

00;14;48;27 - 00;14;58;23

Stephan

He was somewhat. So my mom was, he really kind of let her be the one to make the decisions about the curriculum. You know, he would check in for sure.

00;14;58;23 - 00;15;32;11

Stephan

My dad was a music teacher, though, so his expertise was a little bit different than, you know, like your core subjects. My parents are also very religious, so they were very concerned about the curriculum in particular that was being given out in the public schools. So between that, as well as the fact that I was, started around fifth grade showing that I was really having difficulty with learning and would often be more depressed, understanding and aware of the fact that I didn't fit in with a lot of people.

00;15;33;05 - 00;16;01;11

Stephan

So my mom told me that the combination between the two, that's why she chose to homeschool me. And some days were more like school and other days were pretty free. My twin and my brother who's 16 months younger than I am, which we're really close. We always have been. We would write plays, we would, you know, build sets for our plays.

00;16;01;28 - 00;16;11;06

Stephan

And my brother and I, we built a suit of armor. We would choreograph fights all the time, you know, stuff like that, which I guess is a different type of learning.

00;16;11;06 - 00;16;17;19

Jeanne

Absolutely. Do you get to bring any of that, like less structured learning into your work as an educator now?

00;16;17;19 - 00;16;31;24

Stephan

Yes, I would. A project based learning is something that I'm a huge advocate for because you really can allow the student to take ownership of their learning and you can really work with their interests.

00;16;32;19 - 00;17;01;17

Stephan

So that's essentially what I did when I would pursue those projects, even though it was sort of more free form, there wasn't that strict structure to it. There was no rubric like you have to do this and that, you know, we kind of created it. But the students are more engaged, they're more motivated, they're more interested and curious to ask like, Hey, how did you think about, how did you think of that?

00;17;01;17 - 00;17;15;03

Stephan

You know, what was your process?

Jeanne

I think when people can get involved in the process, they motivate themselves to learn more. And that's a whole virtuous cycle in a real way.

00;17;15;03 - 00;17;20;26

Jeanne

You mentioned your parents were religious. You've come out. Is there tension around that?

00;17;20;26 - 00;17;39;18

Stephan

Yes, very definitely. I grew up in a very sheltered home, so, but I always knew that sexually I was attracted to women since I was really young. And I'm always someone who values authenticity.

00;17;39;28 - 00;17;51;09

Stephan

I would talk to my parents about that since I was really little. And I have an aunt who's been with her partner longer than my parents have been married, I want to say like 54 years.

00;17;51;09 - 00;17;52;14

Jeanne

That's incredible.

00;17;52;14 - 00;18;01;10

Stephan

Yeah, it really is. And she's, she took one look at me and she's like, Yep, she's probably a lesbian, you know?

00;18;01;10 - 00;18;43;16

Stephan

And so my mom really there was there was kind of a shift then I would say, towards pushing me into more of the, what they perceived as the feminine role in the way women should dress and speak. And, but I still knew who it was, you know, that I felt, which wasn't even that, but scared stiff to say anything more when I finally had the courage to tell my parents as well as my, one of the church leaders, who my parents really listened to, that I don't believe they're acting the way God would act.

00;18;43;16 - 00;19;14;27

Stephan

They use a lot of fear and manipulation and control and took away choice completely. And ironically, me making those statements — they said we've, we've had enough. So I was excommunicated from the church that I was attending. My parents didn't allow me to talk to them for almost ten years. I couldn't talk to or relate to my younger brothers and sisters.

00;19;14;27 - 00;19;42;06

Stephan

Like it was very intense. I was allowed to email my parents, but I would say in 2015 or so my parents did reach out. They had started attending another church. I think they started becoming more aware like, that wasn't healthy, that's not where it should be. And expressed really deep sorrow and asked for forgiveness. Let's, can we build a relationship?

00;19;43;04 - 00;20;11;09

Stephan

But there was a lot of trauma there and then understanding that I'm autistic, it made complete sense why my entire world was just different. Because everybody that I would communicate with, interact with, felt comfortable with, was connected to the church in some way. And I would spend time with them two or three times a week. Everything revolved around that.

00;20;11;18 - 00;20;41;04

Stephan

And then all of a sudden it was gone all at once. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I but I would say in 2018, 2019 is when I met the first transgender man I've ever met and sat down with him because like, my heart inside was like, really happy. I was like, Oh my gosh, there's someone who feels like me because I never really felt like I fit in as a lesbian or whatnot.

00;20;41;04 - 00;21;07;12

Stephan

I just knew that I was attracted to women. So, you know, and we had a good conversation. He was more private about his journey, which I completely respect, but that's when I really started saying, Wow, I should probably look at that because it coincided with some really intensive therapy that I was having, which just brought all these things up, so, yeah.

00;21;07;12 - 00;21;35;15

Jeanne

I've noticed that, I think, autism diagnoses are often delayed for people who are like, assigned female at birth, and that can lead to a lot of problems, obviously. All of these things get gendered in an interesting way. It can be difficult. Like for me, I didn't get my diagnosis until I was in my early twenties, which, you know, I was someone who easily could have been diagnosed at a younger age.

00;21;35;15 - 00;22;08;18

Jeanne

I was like the classic target for: Let's get this kid into get diagnosed. It didn't happen, which was fine, but after that I started to process some of my other mental health issues. I started to figure out all of these gender feelings I was having. I transitioned and now it's like, well, I actually just kind of am in a weird place in terms of how all of these different things mesh together, because I untangled them all in some kind of weird sequence, and now I'm just out here being myself.

00;22;09;23 - 00;22;16;19

Jeanne

It's really interesting to hear your experience with actually a lot of the same things in a very different way.

00;22;16;19 - 00;22;27;10

Stephan

Yeah, I think there's a lot of complexity, is how I like to say it because they do interact and they are hard to separate.

00;22;27;10 - 00;22;27;19

Jeanne

Right.

00;22;27;19 - 00;22;40;03

Stephan

Which is why, and I think that's something that I understand. And maybe you also, in that sense of like trying to put something in a box. When you think differently and you're autistic.

00;22;40;03 - 00;23;01;09

Stephan

First off, you're like, think of putting, I think of putting someone in an actual box. And I'm like, oh, that's like a coffin. Like, that's pretty dark, you know? But there isn't one that fits or that can describe everyone. And so I think one of the — dangers might be too harsh of a word, but I'm going to use it.

00;23;01;09 - 00;23;29;17

Stephan

One of the dangers of using individual labels, whether it's for gender, whether it's for mental health, or… in a way where you hold on to that label and try to put one mass description on it, you know, it's, you can't generalize any of them.

Jeanne

No, I don't think so.

Stephan

And a lot of people who don't identify that way and/or are not autistic, it's hard for them to understand and they get overwhelmed.

00;23;30;20 - 00;23;57;14

Stephan

Well,I have to remember all these different ways, pronouns and like referring to people? and, you know, like just being very and you're like, no, just ask the person, you know. But I think that really comes from that — I kind of blame psychology — like labeling, you know, that this is this is this, you know, which the behaviors that come out of it are, you know, such, and everybody just assumes, you know, that bipolar or anything else looks the same when,

00;23;57;14 - 00;23;59;08

Jeanne

Which is not remotely true.

00;23;59;13 - 00;24;00;27

Stephan

Not at all.

00;24;00;27 - 00;24;24;08

Jeanne

People with experience like the ones we have, we get over medicalized. We are in people's offices all the time and I think what I've thought about in the past is that sometimes the only way we can get care is by really committing to the label. Like, This is my diagnosis, I've got it on a piece of paper, I can show it to you, I can get the things I need, I can get the tools I need.

00;24;24;21 - 00;24;38;10

Jeanne

And sometimes being challenged on like, That's not who you are, is really scary because it's like, Well, but I need it to be because I need all of these things that are a consequence of that.

00;24;38;10 - 00;24;56;02

Stephan

That's a fascinating way to put it. I like that. When I received the diagnosis, even though it was at 40, my entire body relaxed though, like it was just this, I always knew, you know.

00;24;56;04 - 00;25;22;02

Stephan

And then when I would reflect, all of these markers, so to speak, of oh, well, this is — struggling in math. And, you know, just my frustration of like, oh, my gosh, like, why can't I get this? Why is everybody else getting this? Or my moments of being completely distracted, you know, being, cause what we were learning was not interesting.

00;25;22;02 - 00;25;48;24

Stephan

So I'm going to think about what I want to think about right now. Also being all over the place, spelling or sequential order, things like that, that were really difficult. All of a sudden these moments, especially of really hard struggle, started just aligning and I was like, Wow, okay, that explains it. So there was some relief in the label.

00;25;49;07 - 00;26;01;01

Stephan

But then, what do I do now? You know, which is what anybody I think who gets a diagnosis of any kind, is like, Well, what do I do now?

00;26;01;01 - 00;26;04;29

Jeanne

Yeah, and where did you start?

00;26;04;29 - 00;26;16;03

Jeanne

So that was in, let's see, I'm 42 now. I want to say, I'm almost 43, so I feel like that was in 2020 when I got that diagnosis.

00;26;16;03 - 00;27;04;26

Stephan

And then I actually started transitioning in October of 2020. So there were so many different things going on.

Jeanne

Early pandemic.

Stephan

Yeah, yeah. For sure. I did a lot of reading, I did a lot of research, I did a lot of sitting with myself and saying, you know, does this resonate? And I relied a lot on talking with my twin or people that knew me really well and some of them were very relieved to hear as well, because I have a tendency to just start a sentence halfway through or not complete a thought or just, you know, misinterpret text messages.

00;27;04;26 - 00;27;31;21

Stephan

Oh, my gosh, I hate text messages because even though I'm horrible at social cues and I can't see, you know, in someone's expressions to read them, at least from what I've tried to pick up growing up, I have a little bit more of a sense. But things like that became more clear. So then they didn't take it as personally, you know, so.

Jeanne

It gave them a framework in a similar way to the way it can give you a framework.

00;27;31;21 - 00;27;41;15

Stephan

Yes. But then you have those people that question like, well, are you really though, because you've done seemingly quite well for yourself, you know,

00;27;41;15 - 00;27;44;07

Jeanne

"you can't actually be autistic."

00;27;44;07 - 00;27;56;12

Stephan

Right. And a lot of times even at work — So I'm currently not teaching because I can't work in the school district where I'm running for school board.

00;27;56;24 - 00;28;00;02

Jeanne

Oh, right. That's just a conflict of interest policy?

00;28;00;02 - 00;28;00;17

Stephan

It is.

00;28;00;17 - 00;28;00;25

Jeanne

Okay.

00;28;00;25 - 00;28;28;17

Stephan

Yeah. And, and that's okay because I'm working on my dissertation right now and I want to start my own consulting company and I'll probably be working with either school districts or business institutions. My focus is going to be diversity and inclusion and really sort of helping school districts or businesses on a policy level or just their structure, interview structure, whatever it is.

00;28;28;17 - 00;28;57;13

Stephan

So I felt like it was a good transition to kind of, you know, start going into some of that work, and — I lost my train of thought —

Jeanne

— well, I think it's —

Stephan

Oh, someone at work. Yeah, I found it. So I'm working just sort of as a temporary job at a car dealership. And one of the guys though, you know, I forget if I was slower to respond to something or — but he kind of looked at me funny and I said, well, I'm autistic,

00;28;57;13 - 00;29;25;27

Stephan

So maybe, you know, I just confused something. And he looked at me and he's like, You're autistic. I couldn't tell. I was like, Well, thank you. And he's like, So you're good at math? And I was like, I'm not. He's like, Oh, but autistic people are good at math. And so there's all these preconceived ideas or maybe bias or whatever you want to call it, you know, there that come with the diagnosis.

00;29;25;27 - 00;29;49;13

Stephan

And I think that's been interesting to navigate, you know, but I've tried to be pretty open about it because then, like I said, I'm an educator. So, it's an opportunity to kind of tell them.

Jeanne

Yeah, I think, I like that perspective. It's, it's always an opportunity to educate, which I think goes also into pursuing, you know, running for office and leadership like that.

00;29;49;13 - 00;30;24;11

Jeanne

It's also about educating in a lot of cases.

Stephan

Yeah. And I value that visibility when, you know, meeting my first transgender man and really kind of exploring myself and masculinity that I had really repressed. And it just reminded me of how important it is to be. Just that visibility is. And I appreciated that while he still stayed somewhat guarded about pieces and aspects of his story, that he was still open to share.

00;30;24;11 - 00;30;54;15

Stephan

Because while there are plenty of moments to educate, it also sort of becomes a burden, or it can become a burden to start them every single time. You know, this is how autism works or how being transgender is, you know, fill in the blank or bipolar or whatever it is, ADHD. And I don't know about you, but I'm someone who as soon as I'm interested in something, I like Google the crap out of it, right?

00;30;54;15 - 00;31;14;16

Stephan

So that, you know, pretty much I'm like, yeah. And then I'll go down rabbit holes and then kind of come back to the original thing I was researching. But I've always wanted to be really frustrated and be like, Why don't you Google this? Or Why don't you look this up? Instead of putting that on me, you know, which —

00;31;14;16 - 00;31;29;08

Stephan

And then I say that understanding that as a white man, I still have a certain level of privilege because I think my, my students of color also feel that burden.

Jeanne

Yeah, I've heard that perspective from a lot of people.

00;31;29;08 - 00;31;38;19

Jeanne

I don't know if you're familiar with it, but there's a website called Let me Google that for you, and it just redirects to the Google search result for whatever the thing is you're talking about.

00;31;38;19 - 00;31;39;26

Stephan

Oh, my gosh. That's amazing.

00;31;39;26 - 00;31;40;23

Jeanne

Yeah, it's pretty great.

00;31;40;23 - 00;31;44;05

Stephan

I should have come up with that.

00;31;44;05 - 00;32;07;26

Jeanne

It seems like not a lot of people who are autistic and trans and have to do all that constant like, "here's how you can think of me as an actual person" work all the time are going to want to run for office, because it really puts you in that position of scrutiny. Did you feel that pressure going into it?

00;32;07;26 - 00;32;24;04

Stephan

School board is a little bit different. It's nonpartisan. Although it's so interesting because one of the first questions people ask is, are you a Democrat or a Republican? You know, because they really want to understand, well, maybe that's not true. I would like to tell myself that they really understand —

00;32;24;04 - 00;32;57;02

Stephan

— want to understand where you are on the issues. But maybe it's just a matter of, I want to be okay with my assumptions about that party. You know, I wrote an opinion article, though, in for the Ahwatukee Foothills where I talked about autism in politics. So I, and I'll return to the transgender scrutiny. But I've already noticed the propensity to be loyal to a party without necessarily questioning or seeing,

00;32;57;02 - 00;33;19;11

Stephan

Is this how I really feel? I've noticed the sort of good boy club, you know, that I was like, Is it just me? Because I've never been able to get in that club, let alone have an invite, you know? But there are a lot of outside things that, I feel is a waste of time, you know, like, why am I going to say something that I don't believe?

00;33;19;27 - 00;33;41;26

Stephan

Why am I going to tiptoe around something when it's just like, No, this is what it is. And kind of the idea of that authenticity and that integrity being present. So, I mean, there are probably a few moments where even myself I was like, oof, should I say that? Because how is that going to be perceived?

00;33;41;26 - 00;34;03;25

Stephan

And then I was like, No, why do I care about that? I'm going to let people know how I feel about education, how I'm going to be an advocate for students, that I value visibility, both being autistic and transgender, and it will fall where it falls. I am thankful for Victory, though, Victory Institute.

00;34;03;25 - 00;34;05;01

Jeanne

Yeah, yeah. I'm familiar.

00;34;05;16 - 00;34;39;08

Stephan

And they train candidates specifically in the LGBTQ community for political roles. And while school board isn't necessarily like governor, some of the other, you know, positions where you might have more scrutiny, with the way legislation is now in Arizona, specifically, even seemingly targeting LGBTQ and especially transgender. I did have to wrestle with that for a minute, but I'm like, I'm going to. I am who I am.

00;34;39;08 - 00;34;48;07

Stephan

I worked really hard to now even be perceived as the person that I've always known that I am, so.

00;34;48;07 - 00;35;16;01

Jeanne

Well and a lot of that stuff at the state level is bubbling up from from school districts. So you are kind of throwing yourself into the lion's den in a real way. But I think it's great. And I think, you know, there's a lot to be said about trans kids being able to see a trans person running for school board, but also being very open about your autism and how that affects the way you communicate about policy.

00;35;16;16 - 00;35;33;27

Jeanne

That's something that I think is really just as important, too, because, frankly, people are vicious and awful to neurodivergent kids, even when they're trying to be helpful. And I think it's really cool to see, you know, here's an adult who's open about it

00;35;33;27 - 00;35;42;02

Stephan

And to take that lens to policy for — you know, the school board's main responsibilities are policy,

00;35;42;18 - 00;36;11;23

Stephan

So, creating policy for the district; the budget; and then hiring and firing your superintendent. So essentially the five people — we have five at least in our, in Tempe Union — want to act as much as one body as possible, which I'm thankful there's five, you know, because then you can disagree with someone on the board, but then the majority, you know, but it's their job to hold the superintendent accountable.

00;36;13;01 - 00;36;48;11

Stephan

You know, the school systems are still in a hierarchical system and of course, it really does come back to the superintendent. And how well they do. Autism I think can be a strength in that. I love words. I will read every single one of them. I will sit and read — I've read every single piece of legislation, especially that affects the LGBTQ community or students in school, or even legislation where they're trying to mandate how a teacher teaches history, what it is that they say.

00;36;48;11 - 00;37;29;24

Stephan

So anything education-wise like, I will be that person who sits down and will read, you know, the HB-whatever-it-is, you know, and I'm very detail oriented. So I feel like that lens is going to be helpful for those pieces. But then also, thank you for verbalizing that, that understanding that teachers, even though they're well-meaning, can sometimes not understand how to best serve someone who is autistic, especially if they're high functioning and in general education classes. And that's what I would love to help with.

00;37;29;24 - 00;38;03;28

Jeanne

I mean, I know high functioning is maybe somewhat of an obsolete term, but for people who get categorized that way, people will just throw anything at you like, Oh you can handle it, you can handle it, and you're like collapsing inside, but you don't even really know how to show it because you haven't been given room for it. And it's just, if there isn't a good system for it, and for me I think that's why being homeschooled ended up being very useful is, I had less of a, of a box around me as a kid.

00;38;03;28 - 00;38;16;09

Stephan

And I think, so I understand too right now there's a lot, you know, in public school versus charter school going on right now, but a lot of the charter schools or private schools —

00;38;17;00 - 00;38;45;02

Stephan

One of their main functions was to serve people who lived with a disability and/or were autistic. So because they can just provide a different structure and/or homeschooling. And I completely agree in a lot of ways it's so helpful and there isn't anything necessarily wrong with that. But I also feel that public schools can do better, you know, and they should do better so that they can be inclusive.

00;38;45;26 - 00;39;02;24

Stephan

If you have a family who can't afford private school or a charter school, they need to be confident that their, you know, the school is going to be inclusive. It's going to be a safe environment. They're going to still have a teacher that meets their needs. You know,

00;39;02;24 - 00;39;10;24

Jeanne

and I think you said it really well earlier, that things that make the classroom better for autistic kids make the classroom better for all of the kids.

00;39;11;22 - 00;40;15;14

Stephan

But teachers still sometimes struggle with that, especially my age or older, because the idea of the 504, you know, which is kind of your less restrictive, individualized education plan, like an IEP, there are certain things that teachers have to do that are written down, right? So a lot of teachers feel, well I've got all 37 kids in my classroom and I've got, you know, five who have a 504, one that has an IEP, which is when the co-teacher comes in. And it's just a lot to do. And I have to still teach my subject, you know, and it's, I think it's really kind of looked at as, it's kind of compartmentalized as it's well, it's just more work, which is why in teacher trainings or professional developments that I've done, I've taught in a way that would work really well for someone with autism, and they love it because I'm like, No, it's actually less work if you teach it this way.

00;40;15;14 - 00;40;19;15

Jeanne

Yeah,

Stephan

Because all of your kids are getting served.

00;40;19;15 - 00;40;22;22

Jeanne

And you don't have to do five different things at the same time.

00;40;22;22 - 00;40;24;19

Jeanne

Corrrect, correct. Yeah.

00;40;24;19 - 00;40;53;11

Jeanne

Do you feel like that kind of thinking about education isn't in the discourse, the political discourse as much as it should be? Because I see people getting upset about these really hot button issues and I don't see a lot of policy conversation around, you know, there's conversations about resources and underfunding and teacher shortages, but I rarely see it get into the details of like, here's what it's like to be in the classroom.

00;40;54;04 - 00;40;57;26

Jeanne

It's often just very fear driven.

00;40;57;26 - 00;40;58;12

Stephan

Mm hmm.

00;40;58;12 - 00;40;59;27

Jeanne

I don't know.

00;40;59;27 - 00;41;28;06

Stephan

And I feel with being autistic, with being transgender, with being a teacher, my lived experience, when someone takes the time to get to know me, is a very powerful way to probably the most effective way for humanity to connect with humanity. You know, I, in the political world, especially driven by fear, you're exactly right.

00;41;28;24 - 00;41;50;05

Stephan

If someone comes up with an answer, I really feel like it kills curiosity and it kills that discourse. It's like, well, we can't teach about race inappropriately in school, well that must be critical race theory, well yeah, we can't have that. But that's not the answer, it's not even what's being done, you know, like, What, how did you even get there? You know,

00;41;50;05 - 00;42;28;13

Jeanne

But then people are stuck in that idea

Stephan

And/or they just accept it as the answer. So that's what I mean by killing curiosity, because if they actually sat down and talked to their kid and were like, So how does your teacher address students, students who might be non-binary, you know, do they ask about pronouns? Do you observe them using pronouns; and really having their child answer like, this is how it is, And then them kind of having a conversation with the teacher about it, rather than just relying on media or other outlets, that just, you know.

00;42;28;13 - 00;42;31;17

Jeanne

Right. But the actual real people and what they're actually doing.

00;42;31;17 - 00;42;45;08

Stephan

Right, right. So I'm not sure why that doesn't happen. But one of my goals in being more visible is hoping that those conversations can happen and it becomes less scary.

00;42;45;08 - 00;42;56;28

Jeanne

And I think curiosity is a risk. If you have an answer, that's an answer. If you're open and you keep things open and something goes wrong, it's hard to back that up.

00;42;56;28 - 00;43;05;01

Stephan

Well, I think that the idea that something might go wrong is exactly why people will stay away from the risk.

00;43;05;11 - 00;43;28;22

Stephan

But whenever I've — and maybe you've experienced this too — like, I'll give you the simplest example. I went out with my very best friend. We went somewhere for breakfast and they didn't make my eggs the way that I ordered them. So I usually, you know, don't like the yolk runny or whatever. And she said, Well, do you want to send it back or do you want to try it?

00;43;28;22 - 00;43;54;14

Stephan

And I'm like, mm, I want to send it back. Cause that's what I, this is the way I like it, the texture thing or whatever. And she said or you could try it and if you don't like it then you can send it back because we'd have to send it back anyways. So I was like, okay, you know, hesitantly putting salt on there, you know, and I tried it and it wasn't terrible and I tried another couple of bites and I was like, okay, this is not my preference.

00;43;54;20 - 00;44;27;24

Stephan

But I felt really glad that I tried it because there wasn't any, you know, there wasn't any harm that came of it. There was a moment of discomfort where I'm like, you know, yeah, no, that's kind of gross. I don't prefer that. But there wasn't anything horrible that came of trying. And if you're autistic, you know how much that was, how hard that might have been, because, you know, we really have those ways of just, you know — but I think it's the same when someone tries something new or takes a risk or, you know, to have that conversation.

00;44;28;18 - 00;44;56;18

Stephan

What could go wrong? I'm not really sure if there's an answer to that. You know, if someone shares a different perspective and then you say, okay, thank you for sharing that. I disagree with you. And this is why, you know, but that ability to listen, the ability to take a risk, stay curious and have that conversation. I think all of those are skills and I wish more people would learn them or more people would teach them.

00;44;57;10 - 00;45;04;16

Jeanne

I agree. I think we need to wrap up. But, what an incredible way to wrap up. Really. Thanks for being on the podcast with me.

00;45;04;16 - 00;45;08;04

Stephan

Thank you so much for the invite. I enjoyed it a lot.

00;45;08;04 - 00;45;43;19

Jeanne

Thanks so much to Stephan for being my guest on the podcast and to all of you for listening to the show week after week. If you're enjoying it, make sure that you're following the podcast in something like Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or my podcast player of choice, Overcast. We've got some great episodes lined up and a good archive on our website, but we're always looking for new guests to interview. So if you're queer and you live in Arizona, please reach out. Thanks again for listening, and I'll talk to you next week.

On this week’s episode of the Arizona Equals Conversation, Jeanne talks with Samual Kahrs, a trans teenager who leads his school’s GSA club and who has distinguished himself as a voice for his community at the state capitol, standing up against an onslaught of anti-LGBTQ+ legislation.

Full Transcript

00;00;01;18 - 00;02;29;16

Jeanne

From Equality Arizona, you're listening to the Arizona Equals Conversation. I'm Jeanne Woodbury, and each week on the show, I sit down and talk with an LGBTQ+ person living in Arizona about their path in life through a network of relationships to communities, places and people. Today I'm publishing an interview I did with Samual Kahrs a trans teenager living in the East East Valley. He's a student athlete and advocate who's been involved in a lot of our Queer People Fit programing and is very active as the leader of his school's GSA club and an advocacy at the state capitol, which is where I first met him. I'll always say that the bestSamual thing about my job is getting to listen to and learn from really smart people. I've had the opportunity to interview politicians, business owners, and something I always try to ask is how they think about making the difficult decisions they have to make, which of course they have to make all the time. And I asked Samual about this, too. As the leader of his school's GSA club, he's had to make some surprisingly difficult decisions. And I really appreciated getting to talk with him about that process for privacy reasons and considering the political climate that we're in. I've censored the name of his school. This won't affect really anything about the interview, but that's why they're some static in a couple of places. With that out of the way, I think it's important to mention that if you're listening to this episode on the date that it's published, it's October 12th. Today is the day that early voting begins in Arizona, and your ballot could be in your mailbox right now. So don't forget to vote. If you're curious about anything on your ballot at all, just visit EqualityArizona.org/vote for our full comprehensive voter guide. And while you're on our website, you can also check out EqualityArizona.org/stories for the full archive of Arizona Equals interviews. And if you want to add your story to the archive, you can sign up to be a guest on a future episode of the podcast. For now, I'll let Samual introduce himself and get this conversation started.

00;02;34;00 - 00;02;38;21

Samual

Hi, my name is Samual Kahrs and I am a youth advocate here in Arizona.

00;02;39;10 - 00;02;40;27

Jeanne

Awesome. Thanks for being on the show with me today.

00;02;40;28 - 00;02;41;18

Samual

No problem.

00;02;42;00 - 00;02;44;29

Jeanne

So we were talking about San Tan Valley. Do you live in San Tan Valley?

00;02;45;00 - 00;02;45;13

Samual

Yeah.

00;02;45;19 - 00;02;46;20

Jeanne

How long have you been there?

00;02;46;21 - 00;02;48;27

Samual

I've been there my entire life, technically.

00;02;48;27 - 00;02;50;16

Jeanne

Okay.

00;02;50;16 - 00;02;57;17

Samual

Well, we were in Gilbert until I was two and we bought our house out there on my second birthday, actually.

00;02;57;25 - 00;02;58;05

Jeanne

Okay.

00;02;58;07 - 00;03;01;12

Samual

So. Yeah. So I've been out there basically my entire life.

00;03;02;02 - 00;03;24;14

Jeanne

And all of that time. I mean, Gilbert. San Tan Valley, East Valley, and then even farther east. What has that been like, I think the general impression I have of the East Valley, I didn't really grow up in the East Valley, but I did grow up in Chandler and Tempe. I think the general impression is it's not the most accessible environment and sometimes it's not the safest environment.

00;03;24;15 - 00;03;34;14

Samual

Yeah. Especially some very rural. Like it's very rural where I'm at. Like literally I can walk in my front door and I can see horses.

00;03;34;14 - 00;03;35;10

Jeanne

It's very rural.

00;03;35;10 - 00;04;45;26

Samual

Yeah, that kind of deal. And so, I mean, I'm not allowed to use the men's restroom at school because they're worried about my safety going into the men's restroom, and they’re worried about me getting hate crime and stuff because it is that rural and a lot of kids, a lot of kids, have problems with me, especially being president of the GSA club and stuff. So a lot of kids know and I'm very open and proud about like being trans and being bisexual and stuff. And so a lot of kids aren't educated on like what it actually means to be trans and like just LGBTQ in general. And so a lot of kids still have problems with me without even meeting me. And then they get to know me and then they realize like, oh, this is like I was just brought up wrong and like the education that they were given by their parents and stuff was not accurate to like the information we have now. Like one of my best friends. Super country. Super Mormon. And he was like extremely against it until he met me.

00;04;46;10 - 00;04;46;27

Jeanne

Oh, yeah.

00;04;46;28 - 00;05;28;10

Samual

And now if I'm see, like, if I say that I'm like dysphoric or something, he'll go on 30 minute rant on why I look masculine that day, or something like that. Yeah. So he's a really cool dude. And so a lot of the time it just takes like educating people. And that's a big thing that like my school’s GSA would do this year is like we're putting up posters and like each month we're putting up a different poster about like different identities within the LGBTQ community and stuff and sort of putting them up around school because we have a lot of LGBTQ kids, a lot who are not out because of their safety.

00;05;29;05 - 00;05;38;17

Jeanne

Well, so that's something I want to ask about, that safety question. You mentioned not being allowed to use the men's restroom because of a safety consideration.

00;05;38;17 - 00;05;38;28

Samual

Yeah.

00;05;39;11 - 00;05;50;27

Jeanne

But it's not a safety consideration that you're making. It's yeah, the school is still excluding you under the banner of safety. And so I wondered, how do you feel about that policy?

00;05;51;18 - 00;06;09;20

Samual

Honestly, I. I appreciate the fact that they give me a restroom so they don't make me go to girls or they let me use the nurse's restroom. And I appreciate the fact that they do that, because I have been deliberately told by guys that if they saw me in the men's restroom, they would beat me up.

00;06;09;27 - 00;06;11;23

Jeanne

Okay, so it's not an abstract.

00;06;11;24 - 00;06;42;05

Samual

Yeah. So it's like so there's a lot of kids who don't feel safe going into either the restrooms and so they also use the nurse’s restroom but I knew when I was at ASU Prep that was not an option, at my old school that was not an option. And so they basically were like, no, you have to use the girls restroom. And so I definitely appreciate able to like actually have like my own restroom, and have somewhere where like, I can feel safe to just use the restroom. So, it's definitely nice.

00;06;42;29 - 00;06;45;25

Jeanne

And it's a big change from not being given that option.

00;06;45;25 - 00;06;46;08

Samual

Yeah.

00;06;46;22 - 00;06;49;12

Jeanne

Is that the main reason you left ASU Prep?

00;06;49;29 - 00;07;04;09

Samual

That played a big portion into it and a lot of kids, a lot of kids had known me for a decade at that point. We’d grown up together. And it wasn't those kids that had problems with name and pronouns. It was the new kids.

00;07;04;26 - 00;07;05;21

Jeanne

Oh, interesting.

00;07;05;23 - 00;07;35;16

Which didn't really make sense to me because I came out like the second week of eighth grade year. So like most of these kids barely even knew me and my eighth grade year, they let in a whole slew of new kids like I had grown up with the same like 60 kids for most of my life, and then they let in like a hundred brand new kids. Like, I hadn't even seen a fight before my eighth grade year. Like, my eighth grade year was the first there was like an actual legit fight at school.

00;07;36;12 - 00;07;41;03

Jeanne

So that's a huge change from a relatively small and longstanding group.

00;07;41;10 - 00;07;41;26

Samual

Yeah.

00;07;42;19 - 00;07;45;12

Jeanne

That big of a culture changes is — pretty hard to —

00;07;45;12 - 00;07;56;18

Samual

Yeah. Especially being in like a prep school and stuff and like, I think as of now we have a total of six kids left.

00;07;57;05 - 00;07;58;10

Jeanne

From that original class?

00;07;58;10 - 00;08;04;28

Samual

From the original 60 kids of my kindergarten class, there’s six kids left, three of which are triplets. So

00;08;04;28 - 00;08;06;07

Jeanne

Oh wow.

00;08;06;07 - 00;08;17;19

Samual

Yeah, so there are not a lot of kids left. And it was the same with my brother's class. He had three kids with a total of 30 students from his original one and only three graduated.

00;08;17;26 - 00;08;21;07

Jeanne

That 10% rate is pretty dismal.

00;08;21;07 - 00;08;21;15

Samual

Yeah.

00;08;21;15 - 00;08;24;17

Jeanne

I think. So is this just a lot of people leaving for other schools?

00;08;24;17 - 00;09;03;17

Samual

Yeah, it's a lot of kids leaving for public school and I think a large portion is like a lot of us realize now that we have a lot of like genius kid burnout. Growing up like in a prep school where we were always two years ahead in every single class, to going to a public school where stuff just wasn't as difficult. I feel like it played into a part of like why I don't do as well in school now and stuff is like I just kind of have that like childhood burn out of like always have to be like on top of everything and then not having to, sort of with COVID and stuff like that.

00;09;03;17 - 00;09;09;04

Jeanne

I imagine COVID has to be a huge disruption, dealing with the kind of threats of violence from being trans.

00;09;09;19 - 00;09;25;25

Samual

It was. Yeah, it was definitely a crazy time because I left at Christmas break and I went to [redacted] middle school and I got third quarter and that was it because it was that spring break that COVID happened.

00;09;25;25 - 00;09;26;18

Jeanne

Oh, wow.

00;09;26;18 - 00;09;32;11

Samual

So I literally got a quarter of public school before I was going into public high school.

00;09;32;11 - 00;09;32;26

Jeanne

Wow.

00;09;32;26 - 00;09;37;12

Samual

Yeah, and it was pretty crazy, it was definitely a culture shock.

00;09;37;19 - 00;09;38;00

Jeanne

I bet.

00;09;38;00 - 00;09;41;00

Samual

Like massive culture shock for sure.

00;09;41;18 - 00;09;51;11

Jeanne

And I imagine, I mean, that's coming after sort of a reverse culture shock at your other school. And is this around the same time that you were coming out as trans?

00;09;51;13 - 00;10;21;05

Samual

Yeah. So basically so I came out originally to my parents and stuff when I was 11. And then when I was 13. So beginning of eighth grade year was when I came out as trans publicly to everyone and started going by Samual, and all that. And that's when I left ASU Prep at the end of first semester and went to [redacted] middle school because I knew I wanted to go to [redacted] high school and [redacted] middle school is the main middle school that feeds into [redacted] high school.

00;10;21;06 - 00;10;22;01

Jeanne

Oh, I see.

00;10;22;01 - 00;10;26;11

Samual

Because it's like the only high school out by us unless you go to like [redacted].

00;10;27;09 - 00;10;28;29

Jeanne

And then that's kind of a father drive.

00;10;29;07 - 00;10;29;25

Samual

Yeah.

00;10;30;06 - 00;10;38;00

Jeanne

So I know now that you're you were saying you're the president of your GSA. Were you involved in school leadership like that before?

00;10;38;15 - 00;10;41;05

Samual

So ASU Prep didn't have like anything.

00;10;41;12 - 00;10;42;02

Jeanne

Oh, really?

00;10;42;02 - 00;11;39;19

Samual

There was nothing. And it was just a large fact was we were still kind of in middle school at the time, but like we had transferred to the high school, eighth grade was at the high school with the high schoolers because most of us took high school classes at that point. But the high school, they still don't have any type of LGBTQ group there. And it's just it's such a small school. I think, at the high school campus, which it's all on ASU Prep Polytechnic campus. And then we have like our own building. So there's two different buildings, you have pre-K through sixth grade and then you have seventh through 12th on like one part of the campus and in seventh and eighth graders have their own building and nine through 12th has their own building.

00;11;39;20 - 00;11;40;17

Jeanne

Okay. Yeah that makes sense.

00;11;41;01 - 00;11;44;28

Samual

But at the time it was just eight through 12th. When I left,

00;11;44;28 - 00;11;46;13

Jeanne

I see.

00;11;46;13 - 00;11;47;16

Samual

But, I —

00;11;47;16 - 00;11;50;10

Jeanne

So it was small enough there weren't really clubs and things like that.

00;11;50;28 - 00;12;00;24

Samual

You had, like NHS, key club or whatever. But it was mostly just like sports. I think we had like a fencing club and that was’nt bad —

00;12;00;24 - 00;12;01;15

Jeanne

That’s kind of fun.

00;12;01;15 - 00;12;01;27

Samual

Yeah.

00;12;02;14 - 00;12;04;05

Jeanne

Were you involved in any sports?

00;12;04;05 - 00;12;40;17

Samual

Yeah, so I did Winter Guard from first through seventh grade, so I didn't I didn't perform my eighth grade year because I was leaving and then we won State in my seventh grade year. I was on the high school level team at that point. So and that was the year that I got my first concussion as well. I was at Arizona regionals during the finals because we made it past the city finals. We made it to the finals and I did a toss and I got hit in the head with my flag and then I had to hang upside down on the tree. So that was fun with a concussion.

00;12;40;28 - 00;12;44;26

Jeanne

I imagine that's not something that's a gendered activity.

00;12;45;01 - 00;12;59;16

Samual

Not really, no. It tends to be at a younger age, more like female dominated. But when you get to the college level teams and high school level teams, there's a lot more guys.

00;12;59;21 - 00;12;59;28

Jeanne

I see.

00;12;59;28 - 00;13;06;07

Samual

Still mostly like a feminine sport, but guys are getting into it a lot more these days.

00;13;06;08 - 00;13;09;10

Jeanne

Not something that would be affected by the new laws again.

00;13;09;11 - 00;13;10;13

Samual

Yeah. No —

00;13;10;13 - 00;13;11;00

Jeanne

trans participation

00;13;11;00 - 00;13;28;13

Samual

Yeah. So it's definitely not one that's going to be affected, because it's a gender neutral, doesn’t matter, which is a good thing because I plan on continuing, I'm not doing it this year, but I plan on continuing on a college level team next year, so

00;13;29;05 - 00;13;35;18

Jeanne

And with the GSA club that you’ve been president of, did you get into that right away? How has that been going?

00;13;36;07 - 00;14;16;06

Samual

Yeah. So basically my, so I’m a junior this year. My freshman year, I reached out to the advisor towards the end of the year because I didn't know we actually had one. Being such a rural school, I didn't think we would have one. It was his last year there, so we were getting a new advisor. So I took over as acting president for one whole meeting before the end of the school year with our new advisor. And if I’m not mistaken she actually lost her prep hour, so she doesn’t have a prep hour this year. So she teaches all six periods.

00;14;16;06 - 00;14;16;27

Jeanne

Oh wow.

00;14;16;27 - 00;14;24;11

Samual

Yeah. So she doesn't get a prep hour like most teachers. So she's extremely busy. So we got a new advisor this year as well.

00;14;25;24 - 00;14;26;27

Jeanne

That's a lot of turnover.

00;14;26;27 - 00;14;42;28

Samual

Yeah. The guy who originally had it, he had it for like, I want to say, like five or six years. So it's just been recently there's been a lot of turnover just because he retired and then the teacher got busy.

00;14;43;11 - 00;14;45;09

Jeanne

Do you think the pandemic is a factor?

00;14;45;24 - 00;14;59;21

Samual

I think the pandemic definitely played a part in like — I think the pandemic played a part in the original advisor leaving, as well as the last advisor not having a prep hour this year. I think —

00;14;59;21 - 00;15;01;06

Jeanne

because of the staffing issues,

00;15;01;06 - 00;15;19;26

Samual

Yeah, we had staffing issues, definitely played a part into it. Luckily this year we were able to find someone and she's also LGBTQ. Which is pretty awesome. And and she is, if I'm not mistaken, the last LGBTQ teacher lasting now. So.

00;15;19;26 - 00;15;20;08

Jeanne

Oh, wow.

00;15;20;08 - 00;15;28;13

Samual

My freshman year we had four on campus and now we're down to one. They all left last year. So for —

00;15;28;25 - 00;15;30;06

Jeanne

Do you know what's going on with that?

00;15;30;17 - 00;15;39;11

Samual

I think they mostly, like a lot of teachers, left, like we lost our entire science department other than one teacher and two of them were in the science department.

00;15;39;11 - 00;15;41;27

Jeanne

So it's not necessarily a LGBT specific thing.

00;15;41;27 - 00;15;48;04

Samual

Yeah, two of them were in the science department and the other one is actually married to the advisor.

00;15;48;04 - 00;15;48;29

Jeanne

Oh okay.

00;15;48;29 - 00;15;58;07

Samual

Yeah. It's definitely pretty awesome. She lets us mostly, it's mostly me who like runs the club and stuff. She just kind of gives us a space to do it in.

00;15;58;23 - 00;16;01;10

Jeanne

I think technically they're supposed to be students led, right?

00;16;01;11 - 00;16;25;21

Samual

Yeah. And some kids had problems with it, like last year with our other advisor her like not really doing anything, but she always sent out like reminders. She always like did everything in the Google classroom, but it was mostly just meant to be like, we lead it and then she just did any like legal paperwork and stuff like that was for her to do so.

00;16;25;26 - 00;16;34;25

Jeanne

And I think that's a good balance. You get to practice some leadership skills. What do you see as some of the challenges of leadership? What are some of the big decisions you've had to make?

00;16;34;28 - 00;16;47;02

Samual

Um, I would say some of the biggest decisions that I've had to make as a leader was advising people to leave the club.

00;16;47;02 - 00;16;47;27

Jeanne

Oh, interesting.

00;16;48;01 - 00;17;36;03

Samual

Because of a new law that got signed in just recently, it gives parents the right to have like written and electronic access to club participation, psychological records, counseling records, stuff like that. And at this point, we don't know how deep into detail those things go. And for some students safety, I had to advise them to leave the club this year. So that they could physically, like stay safe at home and stuff like that, because the last thing they needed was for it to be like they were part of the club. And then their parents were asking and then they got outed and something happened to them. So I think that was a big thing this year that was really sucked, was having to advise people to leave.

00;17;37;04 - 00;17;50;29

Jeanne

Making a decision like that I think is challenging because when you're communicating that to those kids, you have to convey a lot of information, all at once, and you have to explain your reasoning and you have to see how they respond to it.

00;17;51;00 - 00;17;51;14

Samual

Yeah.

00;17;52;04 - 00;17;56;04

Jeanne

What did you do to prepare for those conversations?

00;17;56;10 - 00;19;37;20

Samual

I talked a lot with my vice president as well as with my advisor. We knew that it was something that we may have to worry about coming into the future, but at this time, administration can't give us a clear answer on like what exactly what policies are going to go into place. And so it was just really hard to have to end up making a separate time to just speak with them and let them know like, hey, for like your safety, the best option for you as of right now is to leave the club until we know what policies are going to be going into place. So you definitely sucked having to like [inaudible] because they were new to the club. And it’s their senior year and stuff. And so it really sucked. But a big thing that we're going to push for this year is names, preferred names. So the name that shows up when attendance is printed, for a sub, we want it to be the preferred name, not the legal name as well as the name that is called at graduation and the name that is on the diploma. And that's the big thing that we were originally that was supposed to be my senior plan. So I had to find a new senior plan now, because we always do like a big thing every year, like a big policy change is the goal. But originally it was going to be wearing the same colored gowns for graduation, because originally it was split between girls and boys. Boys wore black girls wore red but it ended up being that administration did it over the summer.

00;19;38;04 - 00;19;42;09

Jeanne

Oh okay. So now you're embarking on this project.

00;19;42;11 - 00;19;45;05

Samual

Yes. And then we have the name changes as what we’re focusing on this year.

00;19;45;07 - 00;19;49;11

Jeanne

How does that kind of policy advocacy work inside of your school?

00;19;49;23 - 00;19;56;11

Samual

Um, a lot of emails, a lot of emails. We have a brand new administration this year.

00;19;56;26 - 00;19;59;25

Jeanne

Oh, wow. Like top to bottom of your administrative staff?

00;19;59;25 - 00;20;17;21

Samual

Basically, except for, I think like three people, but like our — we have a new principal, new V.P. and so they're much more supportive. And it’s not necessarily that the last principals weren't supportive. They just didn't care.

00;20;18;12 - 00;20;19;12

Jeanne

That's a good distinction.

00;20;19;12 - 00;20;49;10

Samual

Yeah. They just they never contacted me but like the new principal she's like “Hey, I really want to come in and sit on a meeting like one of your guys meetings”. And so it's definitely nice to have an administration who is actually like trying to like actually be a part of the change, versus just kind of avoiding it, which is what it felt like a lot last year. So it's definitely nice to have the new administration for sure.

00;20;49;10 - 00;20;53;03

Jeanne

And I'm sure that changes your approach to advocacy.

00;20;53;03 - 00;20;53;19

Samual

Yeah.

00;20;53;29 - 00;20;57;11

Jeanne

You know, you have at least on some level, a partner in the administration.

00;20;57;12 - 00;21;21;21

Samual

Yeah. Especially having a partner at such high level administration. It's kind of nice and it's not necessarily even [redacted] high school in general. It's district that's the problem that we run into. My freshman year, before I legally changed my name, we had in parentheses the name that I wanted to go by.

00;21;21;21 - 00;21;22;08

Jeanne

Oh, right.

00;21;22;29 - 00;21;32;03

Samual

And I had it all the first semester and second semester district was like, “No, you can't do that”.

00;21;33;09 - 00;21;36;14

Jeanne

So the school district overrode the policy at the school.

00;21;36;23 - 00;21;57;13

Samual

Yeah. And it's really weird because like there's a section in like our thing that's like a preferred name, but you can't put anything in. It is not accessible to anyone. So it says preferred name, but there's no way for anyone in administration of any kind to edit it.

00;21;58;16 - 00;21;59;01

Jeanne

Wow.

00;21;59;14 - 00;22;15;27

Samual

So just it's just an option that's not an option. And so a big thing is even if we can't get to where that's the main name that shows up, I want to get to the point where we at least have the option to enter that into the system.

00;22;16;05 - 00;22;16;17

Jeanne

Right.

00;22;16;19 - 00;22;17;14

Samual

Because we don’t even have that option.

00;22;17;14 - 00;22;28;10

Jeanne

At least make the system functional. Yeah. How do you go about then advocating with the school district? Do you have to go to the governing board or are there administrative people?

00;22;28;19 - 00;22;37;11

Samual

So right now I've been mostly in contact with the administration. Administration is getting in contact with district for me.

00;22;37;11 - 00;22;37;23

Jeanne

I see, okay.

00;22;38;06 - 00;22;51;00

Samual

Because if I'm not mistaken, I can't make any formal things. It's administration that has to make formal things. But I've been in contact with administration and they've been in contact with districts, so yeah.

00;22;51;00 - 00;23;02;18

Jeanne

That's interesting. And I imagine that was less helpful. People that could just slow it down. Where you could graduate and then it would have to get handed off to some other student leader.

00;23;02;18 - 00;23;37;18

Samual

Yeah. And it's nice this year I have my vice president who's been my vice president since last year and they will be taking over for me. So next year I will — I will still technically have like the title of president. However, I will be stepping back from my president's — like what I need to do. They will be taking over as like basically acting president and they will be training a new vice president.

00;23;37;20 - 00;23;38;15

Jeanne

That's excellent.

00;23;38;15 - 00;23;50;03

Samual

Yeah. So basically, I'm training them right now to be president. They will then next year, over my supervision, train the next vice president, to be the president when they graduate, so.

00;23;50;03 - 00;24;04;19

Jeanne

I think every organization needs to have that kind of succession planning. But in a high school GSA club, someone might not be president for more than two years. So you're constantly in that kind of succession mode.

00;24;05;09 - 00;24;21;29

Samual

Yeah so especially with next year being my senior year, and then the next year will be their senior years. So we kind of just have to get it to where we have that continuous movement. But I think there oh, they’re, they’re a sophomore so next year is their junior year. So yeah.

00;24;22;00 - 00;24;23;05

Jeanne

So they'll be around.

00;24;23;05 - 00;24;47;24

Samual

Yeah. So they'll be around and stuff. So I think next year we're going to make it that to be part of like the leadership part as the secretary, treasurer, stuff like that. You have to be a junior. So I think we're going to make that so. President will be a senior and VP will be a junior, is basically the goal. So, yeah.

00;24;47;24 - 00;24;57;10

Jeanne

That makes sense. You mentioned how your relationship to these policies changed before and after you updated your legal name.

00;24;57;10 - 00;24;57;22

Samual

Yeah.

00;24;58;05 - 00;25;01;29

Jeanne

I don't think a lot of people really know how that works for minors.

00;25;01;29 - 00;25;02;12

Samual

Yeah.

00;25;02;21 - 00;25;11;16

Jeanne

I could tell people how it works for me. I did it as an adult. But it's not the same. Can you tell me about your experience dealing with all of that?

00;25;11;28 - 00;25;57;29

Samual

Um, it was a lot of work and a lot of money. I want to say just just getting the name legally changed was, I believe, $450 as a minor. You do have to get parental consent. Obviously, parents have to write off on if you're above the age of 13, I believe you have to actually show up for the hearing as well or you have to like sign a paper saying if you consent to the name change. I went to my hearing, my first hearing, we didn't have my Social Security number anywhere, surprisingly enough. So we ended up they were able to fit us in later that day, thankfully.

00;25;58;01 - 00;25;58;17

Jeanne

Oh, that's good.

00;25;59;29 - 00;26;21;21

Samual

But it was a process getting. My parents are separated, so we had to get two new birth certificates. I had to get a new Social Security card, had to get a new passport. And I needed my passport like fast as well, because I was supposed to be going on a trip to Berlin, Prague, Krakow and Budapest.

00;26;21;29 - 00;26;22;26

Jeanne

So you really needed a passport.

00;26;22;27 - 00;26;29;03

Samual

Yes, I really needed a passport by a certain date. I had like 180 days before the trip. I need my passport.

00;26;29;13 - 00;26;31;10

Jeanne

Yeah, that's a very compressed timeline.

00;26;31;10 - 00;26;44;01

Samual

Yeah. So we were rushing and passports were so hard to get because it was like right when COVID started being less worse. And so it was like starting to fly and needing new passports.

00;26;44;16 - 00;26;46;18

Jeanne

So there's a whole administrative backlog and everything.

00;26;47;05 - 00;26;59;11

Samual

Yeah. So it took, you know, normally passports take like, I think the longest we've ever had a passport take was like a month. It took me it took two and a half months for me to get my passport.

00;27;00;05 - 00;27;08;11

Jeanne

And all through this process, you're not just dealing with, like, one administrative body. It's actually a whole bunch. So what was the hearing with, that's with the county?

00;27;08;25 - 00;27;43;23

Samual

Yeah, that was with the county. And so basically he was just like my judge was like, why you want to change your name? And I was like, well, “I'm trans about to be getting my license soon. I've been living this way for three years at this point. I'm going to be starting testosterone soon. I'm pretty sure I like who I am at this point”. And so that was a big reason that like, I got my name changed, and just going in, it's like my sophomore year I did not want to deal with like the whole figuring out the name thing with district.

00;27;43;23 - 00;27;44;16

Jeanne

Such a pain.

00;27;44;16 - 00;27;53;10

Samual

Yeah. So that was a main reason, especially with me getting my license and stuff like that. It was just easier to get it all done.

00;27;54;00 - 00;27;59;29

Jeanne

And once you go through the county process, then you have to go to the Social Security Administration, the MVD.

00;27;59;29 - 00;28;11;00

Samual

The clerk, the county clerk or whatever to get my immuniz — immunization place, to get new birth certificates and stuff like that.

00;28;11;06 - 00;28;13;29

Jeanne

How is the birth certificate process? You were born here in Arizona?

00;28;13;29 - 00;28;19;17

Samual

Yeah, so I was born here in Arizona. So it's pretty easy, I just had to get a new Arizona birth certificate.

00;28;19;17 - 00;28;22;06

Jeanne

And you could update the gender marker and your name and everything?

00;28;22;06 - 00;28;23;15

Samual

Could not update gender markers,

00;28;23;15 - 00;28;24;08

Jeanne

Just your name.

00;28;24;08 - 00;28;46;29

Samual

So, gender marker in the state of Arizona. You have to be two years medically transitioned or have had a gender affirming surgery to get it changed. So I'll be able to change it, if I do get top surgery this summer, I'll be able to change it then. If not, I will change it when I turn eighteen, because I'll be two years on testosterone at that point.

00;28;47;05 - 00;28;54;24

Jeanne

And that's something that the legal struggle around gender affirming care will affect for a lot of people.

00;28;54;24 - 00;29;09;23

Samual

Yeah. And so it's definitely it's weird because like my birth certificate has an F, my license has an X , and then my passport has an M.

00;29;11;14 - 00;29;12;05

Jeanne

So you’re just all across the spectrum.

00;29;12;05 - 00;29;29;09

Samual

Yeah, so I’m just all across the spectrum, and so it was really funny because we had to bring in like a second piece of like identification, and so we brought my license and my passport, and my birth certificate when we had to go get my Social Security card.

00;29;29;10 - 00;29;29;20

Jeanne

Oh yeah.

00;29;30;17 - 00;29;48;13

Samual

And none of the genders matched up. And so then we had to have, we had to have my brother send me a photo of my old birth certificate. And that was the only way that they would let me get my new Social Security card was to prove with my old birth certificate and stuff. So.

00;29;49;13 - 00;29;52;25

Jeanne

Yeah, it becomes just a convoluted mess.

00;29;52;25 - 00;29;54;29

Samual

Yeah, yeah.

00;29;54;29 - 00;30;06;01

Jeanne

I'd love to get your take on everything that's going on with this gender affirming care battle. I think the first time I was aware of you is when you went to testify at a committee meeting about that bill.

00;30;06;07 - 00;30;06;22

Samual

Yeah.

00;30;07;09 - 00;30;21;02

Jeanne

I know that one of the things that's good about the bill that passed is that it mostly doesn't ban a lot of care. Yeah, but one of the things that does change is some gender affirming surgeries for transmasculine people.

00;30;21;02 - 00;31;28;23

Samual

Yeah. So a big thing that right now we are kind of like in contact with lawyers and stuff and we're just trying to understand if these only abide by Arizona. So does it mean like, can I go out of state to get surgery done? And so that's a big thing that we're trying to figure out right now is can I go out of state to get surgery under the age of 18? It wasn't a huge deal at the time, like the surgery part, because my dad and my mom were very set in stone like no surgeries before you’re 18. And then, it was mostly my mom didn't really do any research on it because my dad was a firm no, and he had 50% legal decision making, but he doesn't anymore. My mom has final say, so now she's looking into it more and her work will actually fly me out of state to get gender affirming care.

00;31;28;26 - 00;31;30;03

Jeanne

Is that a policy that the company created —

00;31;30;03 - 00;31;42;26

Samual

Yeah, that was they created it right after Roe v Wade got overturned. So they will fly people out of state for abortions as well as gender affirming care, which is pretty awesome.

00;31;42;26 - 00;31;44;00

Jeanne

Yeah, that's a really good policy.

00;31;44;00 - 00;32;11;11

Samual

Yeah. And they've been super good, especially with like updating their policies. They just started, they started covering testosterone, so I pay like ten bucks a month for like four vials of testosterone. Which, I have an abundance of testosterone now because my doctor has it set up where I get four vials every like 28 days, but I go through like one vial every 28 days.

00;32;11;29 - 00;32;13;03

Jeanne

Oh, interesting.

00;32;13;03 - 00;32;22;02

Samual

So I have like nine unopened, like testosterone vials that I'm just like, “So are we upping my dosage soon?”, we're like, What's going on?

00;32;22;03 - 00;32;25;28

Jeanne

Yeah, I think sometimes there's a ramp up and they just prescribe the whole amount from the start.

00;32;25;28 - 00;32;53;00

Samual

Yeah. So, but yeah. So it's definitely cool that they do that. And there's been a lot of talks about covering gender affirming surgeries starting next year, because a lot of insurance companies are starting to realize that it isn't cosmetic and that it is a medically necessary surgery. And so that's a big reason that like insurance companies haven't covered it in the past is because they saw it as cosmetic.

00;32;53;23 - 00;32;58;02

Jeanne

Are you worried about a version of that bill coming back next year?

00;32;58;10 - 00;33;13;13

Samual

I am actually worried that that is something that will happen. I know there's a few that I'm worried will revamp, one being like — I think it had something to do with like names and pronouns like, um.

00;33;15;24 - 00;33;23;14

Jeanne

There was a bill that said schools couldn't set a disciplinary policy for teachers who wanted to misgender students.

00;33;23;14 - 00;33;32;08

Samual

Yeah, so that was like one that kind of worries me about like coming back and stuff because it didn't move super far this past year.

00;33;32;08 - 00;33;32;29

Jeanne

It really didn't.

00;33;33;25 - 00;33;50;28

Samual

I think it got read like once and then that was it. But I am worried that with these like two new laws that came into place that more laws like that are going to get further into. Yeah, discussions.

00;33;51;00 - 00;34;03;02

Jeanne

It seems like people are emboldened whether it's students in your school or lawmakers, they're emboldened to make more aggressive statements. It's a concerning time, I think.

00;34;03;12 - 00;34;20;10

Samual

Yeah, but I'm really glad that I got into like activism and all that stuff, because it’s always been something that interests me and it's kind of sad that like it was because like legislators were attacking my rights and stuff, but I'm definitely glad that I like got into it.

00;34;20;10 - 00;34;23;11

Jeanne

So yeah. And you're doing it at a lot of different levels.

00;34;23;11 - 00;34;24;02

Samual

Yeah.

00;34;24;02 - 00;34;27;17

Jeanne

Whether it's government or just your own school policy.

00;34;27;17 - 00;34;29;09

Samual

Yeah. Yeah.

00;34;30;23 - 00;34;33;04

Jeanne

I think that's great. Yeah. Thanks for being on the podcast.

00;34;33;04 - 00;34;35;18

Samual

No problem.

00;34;35;18 - 00;35;32;16

Jeanne

Thanks again to Samual for taking the time out of his day to be my guest on the podcast. It's not an easy world out there right now for trans kids or trans teenagers, and it's not like it's easy for trans adults either. But we're adults. It's really something special to see Samual carry himself the way he carries himself and conduct himself as a leader in the circumstances that we all have to live under right now. So I hope that doesn't go underappreciated. If you've listened all the way to the end of this episode, we could really use your support. So please consider visiting EqualityArizona.org/events today to get signed up for some of our volunteer opportunities in the month of October. And if you want to help promote the podcast, you could leave a rating or review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Thanks so much for listening and talk to you again next week.

On today’s episode of the Arizona Equals Conversation, Jeanne talks with Brother Lee Hughes about classics degrees, working in tech, and living life under a rule. For Jeanne, that’s a series of notebooks and sticky notes; for Brother Lee, a married gay man in a religious order, there’s a little bit more to it. The conversation also explores the long history of the church and the healing that is still only beginning to begin.

Links & Show Notes

* Bear (gay culture)

* Bishop Gene Robinson

* Feast of the Nativity of Mary

* Anglican Order of Preachers

* The Doctrine of Discovery

* Bartolomé de las Casas

Full Episode Transcript

00;00;00;28 - 00;00;31;14

Jeanne

From Equality Arizona, you’re listening to the Arizona Equals Conversation. I'm Jeanne Woodbury. Each week on the show, I talk with an LGBTQ+ person living in Arizona about their path through a network of relationships. Sometimes I worry that that's kind of a heady concept. I mostly worry about that when I'm describing the show to potential guests. And as an aside, anyone listening to this who's an LGBTQ person in Arizona is a potential guest.

00;00;31;15 - 00;01;09;03

Jeanne

You can sign up at EqualityArizona.org/Stories. But more to the point, I really believe that what defines us as people and what really grounds our stories isn't our internal journey, but how we connect to all the people around us. Today on the show, I talk with Brother Lee Hughes. And I think his story and the approach to life that he takes, which is really rooted in community responsibility, is something that exemplifies the whole purpose of this podcast.

00;01;10;03 - 00;01;34;12

Jeanne

He's also the first person I've gotten to talk to on the show about studying Latin, which — fair warning going in. But I was excited. Before we get started, it's important to note that today is October 5th. That's just one week before early voting begins in Arizona. If you're not registered to vote yet, make sure to register to vote today.

00;01;34;27 - 00;02;02;17

Jeanne

Just visit EQAZ.vote to get registered. And since it's the beginning of the month, we also have a lot of great events that I want to invite you to. You can check all of those out at EqualityArizona.org/events. One in particular that I'd like to highlight is our very first Queer People Fit Yoga event. That's scheduled for October 11th at Upward Light Yoga in Mesa.

00;02;02;24 - 00;02;19;10

Jeanne

I hope to see you there. And now let's get into the interview.

00;02;24;14 - 00;02;49;25

Brother Lee

I'm Brother Lee Hughes with the Anglican Order of Preachers, also known as the Dominicans. We are an order in the Episcopal Church, much like the Roman Catholic Dominicans. I am a married man, and my husband and I have been together for 28 years. And I am also a retired I.T. professional specializing in telecommunications.

00;02;50;09 - 00;02;52;16

Jeanne

Wonderful. Thanks for being on the podcast today.

00;02;52;27 - 00;02;54;12

Brother Lee

Thank you. Good to be here.

00;02;55;02 - 00;03;06;24

Jeanne

Well, actually, I'm curious. You were saying you went to get a booster the other day. Is this with the new — this is just for my own curiosity — Is that with the new reformulated vaccine?

00;03;06;24 - 00;03;11;09

Brother Lee

No, it was still the regular BioNTech Pfizer shot.

00;03;11;10 - 00;03;11;20

Jeanne

Okay.

00;03;12;00 - 00;03;29;25

Brother Lee

So I've now got four of those. I was supposed to get my fourth booster in April, but we had a very small, we thought controlled gathering at Easter at our house. And come to find out, one of the people actually had been exposed at a previous gathering.

00;03;29;26 - 00;03;30;17

Jeanne

Oh, gosh.

00;03;30;18 - 00;03;38;24

Brother Lee

At a Passover dinner a few days before. And so she communicated it to my partner and then he communicated it a week later to me.

00;03;39;17 - 00;03;40;15

Jeanne

Ah, gosh.

00;03;40;26 - 00;03;42;24

Brother Lee

So we had to put off the boosters for awhile.

00;03;43;05 - 00;03;43;21

Jeanne

Yeah.

00;03;44;13 - 00;03;56;17

Brother Lee

Although it was really it does say a lot for the vaccines. He's in a very high risk group. Mm hmm. And so he was laid out for a bit, but nothing horrible.

00;03;56;23 - 00;03;57;11

Jeanne

Oh, good, good.

00;03;57;27 - 00;04;05;18

Brother Lee

He did the anti-viral therapy as well. And for me, it was like a mild cold. It was more annoyance than anything.

00;04;05;21 - 00;04;17;23

Jeanne

Ah, yeah. I didn't get COVID until after my third shot, and it was super mild, just lethargy and headaches and all of that.

00;04;17;23 - 00;04;22;22

Brother Lee

If I had lethargy, it was matched by the lethargy I usually have from overwork. So.

00;04;23;15 - 00;04;31;24

Jeanne

Yeah. Well, now I'm curious. You mentioned having a small gathering on Easter and a different gathering that was on Passover.

00;04;32;02 - 00;04;47;25

Brother Lee

Well, it wasn't my gathering. The family we had over is a multi-faith family, and so they're Episcopalian, but his relations are also Jewish.

00;04;48;07 - 00;04;49;04

Jeanne

Oh, okay. Wonderful.

00;04;49;05 - 00;05;05;21

Brother Lee

So they went over for Passover, was fairly close to Easter this year. And so they went over and apparently, even though they were careful because the lady of the family had just finished a round of chemo, and so they were being very careful.

00;05;06;00 - 00;05;06;24

Jeanne

Oh gosh.

00;05;07;01 - 00;05;32;06

Brother Lee

But apparently a few of the relatives had not been careful and being in a very precarious position, she picked it up and she was asymptomatic when she came over to our house. And then we got a call from their daughter, who was very good friends of ours. And she said, by the way, Mom's got COVID. She tested positive this morning and this was like on Monday, so the day after.

00;05;32;06 - 00;05;54;26

Brother Lee

And it's like, wow, she didn't look like she had a single symptom yesterday. Okay, so Tuesday, Hugh fell victim to it. And then a week later I did because I was taking care of them. I was observing precautions. But, you know, after a while, somebody slips up somewhere.

00;05;54;27 - 00;06;03;03

Jeanne

It's almost inevitable at that level. How did the pandemic affect your work?

00;06;04;01 - 00;06;28;13

Brother Lee

Well, um, really interesting. I retired from my job on May the 31st this year. Okay. So prior to that, I had been going I've been doing a hybridized work for a few years before the pandemic hit. I would work from home two days and work in the office three. And so when the lockdowns happened, I moved to working at home four or five days a week.

00;06;28;13 - 00;06;51;08

Brother Lee

And this was for CVS Health. And they were a little bit more sensitive to the, to COVID 19 contagion than a lot of other companies are. So we had an extended work at home, period, for those of us who had to. Store personnel, unfortunately, could not get around that; warehouse personnel, they couldn't do that because they were part of the supply chain.

00;06;51;09 - 00;07;15;00

Brother Lee

But for those of us who dealt mostly with the software and the services, like I was in, I was in telecommunications, we were able to work from home. The only, I only had to come into the office a few times and that was basically to dropkick a couple of pieces of equipment that no longer would respond remotely.

00;07;15;01 - 00;07;15;14

Jeanne

Yeah.

00;07;15;27 - 00;07;36;05

Jeanne

Oh, yeah. I think that's a nice thing — I know some other people who already were in that kind of hybrid work situation where they could work from home a lot. And so it was a really easy transition. And I think for people who have family that are in higher risk categories, that was a really fortuitous circumstance.

00;07;36;05 - 00;08;10;28

Brother Lee

Yeah. My husband's 12 years older than I am. Okay. I'm 55 now. He's 67. So he was 64, going on 65 when the pandemic broke out. And of course, we're bears. We're not exactly svelte people. And so that puts us in a risk category all our own. Both have high blood pressure. He has type two diabetes and a couple of immune issues with psoriasis and severe allergies and stuff like that.

00;08;11;06 - 00;08;20;08

Brother Lee

So he was already like, for the first part of the lockdown, I wouldn't even let him out of the house. I wouldn't let him go near the door. I wouldn't let him take the grocery delivery.

00;08;21;00 - 00;08;28;08

Jeanne

It was a very, very, very serious risk at that point in time, especially since we didn't even know the right ways to protect ourselves.

00;08;29;13 - 00;08;40;13

Brother Lee

Exactly. So I made sure that everything came in went on to a cart. It got wheeled to the kitchen. Everything got washed, including cardboard boxes.

00;08;41;17 - 00;08;47;20

Jeanne

Yeah, that was such an interesting moment. Just thought we had to sanitize everything.

00;08;47;23 - 00;09;03;17

Brother Lee

Everything. And of course, we didn't get COVID until we let our guard down. Like, two years later. And fortunately, by that time, therapies were available to make sure that it didn't carry us off.

00;09;04;01 - 00;09;06;24

Jeanne

Yeah, I'm glad. How did you two meet?

00;09;07;24 - 00;09;13;16

Brother Lee

Hugh and I met in Cincinnati many years ago. In 1994.

00;09;13;17 - 00;09;14;00

Jeanne

Oh, cool.

00;09;14;13 - 00;09;16;08

Brother Lee

We met at a bear potluck.

00;09;16;25 - 00;09;17;22

Jeanne

Oh, that's so fun.

00;09;17;23 - 00;09;31;08

Brother Lee

And he had been a founding member of the bear group in Cincinnati. And I had just stumbled on the bear community because I had just come out of the closet six weeks previously.

00;09;31;09 - 00;09;32;05

Jeanne

Oh, wow.

00;09;33;10 - 00;09;52;04

Brother Lee

So I really didn't have the chance to form any serious relationships or anything like that. And I went to this person's house and back then everything was done by voice mail and phone chains and everything else.

00;09;52;08 - 00;09;52;16

Jeanne

Right!

00;09;52;22 - 00;09;58;24

Brother Lee

Because, whoever thought of a smartphone? And cell phones were about the size of that mixer board.

00;09;59;08 - 00;10;08;15

Jeanne

Well, and I know in 1994, people were using like bulletin board systems and the early web and stuff. But I think that was pretty niche still.

00;10;08;29 - 00;10;34;21

Brother Lee

It was. But it was a life saver for somebody who was just, who had been in the closet for 27 years of his life. I was 27, not only when I came out, but when I lost my virginity. So we're talking really green around the edges. And very nervous. And we had, I, again, I had just, I knew what I was attracted to.

00;10;35;00 - 00;11;02;02

Brother Lee

Just had found out what the community was called, found, just by happenstance, a community bulletin board for that community. And they had a Thanksgiving potluck going on. So I went. And not knowing anything, I dressed in a sports jacket, khakis and a turtleneck, which was way over dressed for — I mean, I could have gotten away with my usual flannel and jeans and fit right in.

00;11;02;12 - 00;11;14;03

Brother Lee

Yeah. So I was sitting there nibbling on food and making small talk. Mm hmm. Being that new meat in the group. Needless to say, everybody was, Who is this kid?

00;11;14;11 - 00;11;15;15

Jeanne

Why is he so dressed up?

00;11;15;17 - 00;11;39;01

Brother Lee

Yeah. And Hugh bounced into the potluck? And I do say bounced, because Hugh has always had a bit of a caffeine problem. And I've learned to develop the caffeine problem too. Marriage will do that. But he bounced in and I looked at him and he was a little hyper. And the immediate thought I went is, who is this druggie?

00;11;39;17 - 00;11;51;07

Brother Lee

I thought he was on something a little harder than caffeine. And he had surveyed the room like he usually did, just picking out friends. And he looked over and he thought to himself, Why is there a narc here?

00;11;52;10 - 00;11;54;21

Jeanne

Oh, right.

00;11;55;16 - 00;12;21;06

Brother Lee

So I thought he was a druggie. He thought I was a narc. And he really it took a few meetings to well, it took a few meetings for us to actually break the ice and get to know each other. And then January, then the immediate following January following, we ran into each other on the street and we both had a rather bad day.

00;12;21;06 - 00;12;25;20

Brother Lee

And we just started to talk on the on the sidewalk. For two hours.

00;12;25;29 - 00;12;28;03

Jeanne

Oh, that's so nice.

00;12;28;27 - 00;13;01;28

Brother Lee

We really clicked, and I went home with him and we started dating very seriously. And I had moved in by April the first of that year. And the next year we were ready to make a commitment. Back then you couldn't get married. So we sort of staged a commitment ceremony in '96, which was August the third, '96, and then it's basically history from there.

00;13;01;29 - 00;13;37;05

Brother Lee

We had, we — I'm a dual citizen. I was born and raised in Canada. So when Canada made marriage legal coast to coast, in 2004, we did a quick trip up to Toronto to officially tie the knot and drag the marriage certificate back with us. And then when it became legal in 2015 here in the United States, the same time the church that we were going to changed their canon laws to make it possible for us to get married in this diocese in Arizona.

00;13;37;18 - 00;13;44;27

Brother Lee

And so we did all the planning and we had an actual church wedding in September of 2015.

00;13;45;06 - 00;13;54;10

Jeanne

Oh, that's beautiful. Um, how long did you stay in Cincinnati after that point in time? After '95, '96?

00;13;54;10 - 00;14;16;02

Brother Lee

Well, I had moved there in 1989 for graduate school, and we didn't leave Cincinnati until 2007 when CVS closed our facility in Fairfield, Ohio. And I was relocated to Pittsburgh for three years. And then they closed the diocese — not diocese, sorry — the data center.

00;14;16;26 - 00;14;17;21

Jeanne

Same difference.

00;14;18;20 - 00;14;37;00

Brother Lee

Yeah. A whole lot of protocols that makes zero sense. [Laughs] They made sense to somebody. So we stayed there until they closed the data center because they were amalgamating all sorts of I.T. processes. And so I moved out here where we have a data, where CVS has a data center in Scottsdale.

00;14;37;23 - 00;14;39;15

Jeanne

Oh cool, I didn't realize that.

00;14;40;12 - 00;14;50;10

Brother Lee

Yeah, out around Shea Boulevard. And we moved out here in 2010. No, 2011. It's been a while.

00;14;50;14 - 00;14;50;23

Jeanne

Yeah.

00;14;52;04 - 00;14;54;06

Brother Lee

And we haven't regretted the move.

00;14;54;24 - 00;15;08;12

Jeanne

Well, now I want to dig in to that diocese, data center thing. I don't think that's a mix up a lot of people would make. So what is your experience then on that side, of the diocese side instead of the data center side?

00;15;08;13 - 00;15;32;20

Brother Lee

So the diocese in ancient churches is basically the major division in churches, in a like a national church. For instance, a very famous diocese is the Diocese of Rome, which is basically the city of Rome, the port of Ostia and the surrounding countryside. And it's bishop happens to be His Holiness Pope Francis the First.

00;15;32;21 - 00;15;33;03

Jeanne

Right.

00;15;33;09 - 00;15;39;28

Brother Lee

Okay. And it's been a diocese pretty much for a long, long, long, long time.

00;15;40;05 - 00;15;40;13

Jeanne

Yeah.

00;15;41;01 - 00;16;11;16

Brother Lee

The way things have gone is most ancient churches, like the Eastern Orthodox Church or whatever variety it happens to be that you're passing by, or the Roman Catholic Church, or any number of the Anglican Churches, like the Church of England or the Episcopal Church, or that — they are governed in units called geographical units called the diocese. And the diocese is headed up by a bishop who is considered the successor to the apostles.

00;16;11;29 - 00;16;37;25

Brother Lee

It's a rank of clergy from whom all the other ranks of clergy depend, basically. And since I'm Episcopalian, I belong to one of those ancient churches that have that structure and so a lot of the stuff that we do at the parish level has to be validated by the diocese. All of our, all of our programs and stuff like that comes from the diocese.

00;16;39;00 - 00;17;01;00

Brother Lee

A lot of parishes like to think they're independent, but they're dependent on the diocese. Sort of like when you're in a company and you're in an I.T. department, everything's dependent on your data center because that's where all the big hardware is, that's where all the major circuits coming in, carrying data are. And that's where companies spend a lot of money.

00;17;01;25 - 00;17;18;22

Jeanne

Yeah. So then for you, waiting until 2015 for that moment where there was the decision that you actually could have a church wedding. What was that like? You know, were there discussions about it? Was it sudden policy change? Were you involved in any of that?

00;17;20;04 - 00;17;46;06

Brother Lee

No, I wasn't really involved in that. I had a period of time where I had sort of like, cooled in my relationship with the church, and that didn't really come alive again until 2014. But the Episcopal Church had been sort of fighting that fight in the background for many years back in the last century. Gosh, we can say the last century and still mean the 1980s.

00;17;47;01 - 00;18;24;10

Brother Lee

But they, the Episcopal Church was starting to reevaluate its position on LGBTQ issues and they really were the denomination that — the mainline denomination — that was basically on the front lines of it. Other denominations have been taking blows internally on that, but it was the first major one with an ancient pedigree that really was starting to wrestle with that.

00;18;25;05 - 00;19;02;20

Brother Lee

And they had people entering the diaconate, which is a service ministry within the the church or the priesthood. And then, of course, there was the consecration of Gene Robinson as bishop of New Hampshire, which really blew the lid off the discussion. And the church is still putting out fires to this very day. There were, there were some splits within the church over the issue, much like we're starting to see with the United Methodists in recent history.

00;19;02;24 - 00;19;38;13

Brother Lee

But they, they sort of like paved the way for implosions and explosions and basically a really lively debate. And by around, by about 2014, 2015, after having faithful LGBTQ Christians in all ranks of the ministry, the Episcopal Church was ready to say, Well, now that it's legal in all the land, we can go ahead and not worry about legal reprisal by opening our canon law either.

00;19;39;06 - 00;19;39;18

Jeanne

Ah right.

00;19;39;19 - 00;19;54;24

Brother Lee

Yeah. Now that that hasn't been smooth sailing either. There are still some dioceses that have problems with that. And some parishes have peeled off, and it's been a bit of a mess. But when we're talking about a massive cultural change like that.

00;19;54;24 - 00;19;56;24

Jeanne

And an institution that's ancient.

00;19;57;03 - 00;20;14;29

Brother Lee

That measures things — whose speed is usually glacial. I mean, we're talking — people feel that the Episcopal Church moves kind of quickly. And for an ancient church, it does move kind of quickly, but it's still glacial.

00;20;15;01 - 00;20;38;17

Jeanne

Yeah. But I would imagine that, you know, as a gay man in that church, even before all the policies were put in place and decisions were made, it sounds like because there was an active process of change, that it was maybe a more natural home than potentially another denomination.

00;20;38;17 - 00;21;09;04

Brother Lee

Yeah, that is correct. My background's a bit checkered religiously. I was brought up in a mixed religious household as far as Christianity was concerned. My dad's family were an odd variety of Baptists who were Calvinists. Most Baptists are on a different wavelength all together. But my, the Baptists that my dad's family were, were more akin to Presbyterians.

00;21;09;14 - 00;21;35;25

Brother Lee

The only thing they did differently is they didn't baptize their young children. So, then my mother's family was a mix; on her father's side they were Congregationalist, which, ok they're kind of Calvinist as well. Her mother's side was Anglican. At that time in Canada, which is where her mother was from and where my dad is from — it's a really long story there — but they were still known as the Church of England in Canada.

00;21;36;12 - 00;21;47;11

Brother Lee

And my, my dad's mother put it this way, my grandmother Hughes, the only difference between the Roman Catholic Church and the Church of England is a piece of paper so thin you can sneeze through it.

00;21;48;29 - 00;21;52;19

Jeanne

That is accurate.

00;21;52;19 - 00;21;54;27

Brother Lee

Pretty much. Some Anglicans will dispute that, but.

00;21;55;02 - 00;21;55;15

Jeanne

Oh I'm sure.

00;21;57;02 - 00;22;23;18

Brother Lee

From the outside looking in it, they could argue all they want and it really didn't matter. But I, when I was still in the closet and struggling with my sexuality, I had affiliated with the Anglican Church for a while. And then when the whole thing with the whole LGBTQ issue coming up and being discussed, it was hitting too close to home for me.

00;22;24;05 - 00;22;53;18

Brother Lee

So I defected for a while to the Eastern Orthodox Church. For who I, for a church that I have a lot of theological attitudes in common with, not necessarily on sexuality, but definitely on some really heavy theological debates that would put most people to sleep really quickly.

00;22;54;24 - 00;23;01;02

Jeanne

I think I would be fascinated, but I'm not sure if —

Brother Lee

Your listenership might have a problem.

00;23;01;02 - 00;23;01;11

Jeanne

— my listeners, I don't know.

00;23;02;11 - 00;23;06;05

Jeanne

Some of them right now I'm sure are just going like, no, no, no. Talk about it! Talk about it!

00;23;06;05 - 00;23;10;20

Brother Lee

Oh, yeah, no; if there's if there's a cry for it, maybe we can do a followup.

00;23;10;20 - 00;23;11;14

Jeanne

Yeah, we'll do a follow up.

00;23;11;14 - 00;23;15;14

Brother Lee

It's like, for those who are not interested, we'll spare them that agony.

00;23;15;19 - 00;23;18;05

Jeanne

Yeah. Let's go back to the fourth century.

00;23;18;27 - 00;23;29;13

Brother Lee

Yeah. And which we would have to do. And then a lot of people would be like, okay, you hear that sound? That's them falling off their chairs in a stupor.

00;23;29;13 - 00;23;33;01

Jeanne

But you moved over to the Eastern Orthodox Church at that point.

00;23;33;02 - 00;24;02;01

Brother Lee

I did. And I don't regret doing that. I did learn a lot there about a relationship with God and piety and of incorporating your whole self in worship rather than just your mind. I'm — Orthodox and Catholic worship, for the most part is an all five senses, involve your whole body sort of worship. Especially after the fifth time you've gotten up from the kneelers.

00;24;03;25 - 00;24;04;16

Jeanne

Yeah, that's true.

00;24;04;29 - 00;24;33;05

Brother Lee

So. But when I finally came out, I found that I — It wasn't that safe at church to be with. And there for a while, Hugh and I were sort of content to, like, surf along for a while. Faithful but unchurched, sort of, so to speak. And then a good friend of ours finally convinced us to try out the Episcopal Church.

00;24;33;05 - 00;24;58;02

Brother Lee

The parish she was going to was very LGBTQ affirming. And so we went and we, that, throughout our entire time in Cincinnati, we were members of that parish. And then when we moved, finally moved to Phoenix, we had a bit of a dry period and then we found another LGBTQ affirming parish, St Mary's on 39th Avenue in Maryland.

00;24;58;10 - 00;25;08;08

Brother Lee

That not only was affirming, it was also a very Catholic expression of Anglican spirituality.

00;25;08;08 - 00;25;11;01

Jeanne

And it sounds like for you that's kind of the best of all worlds.

00;25;11;02 - 00;25;26;17

Brother Lee

Yeah, it is the best of all worlds. It again, is the style of worship, the theology that I appreciate, the fact that there is a devotion to Mary, the mother of God, whose nativity it is today. This, this is the feast day of the nativity of the mother of God.

00;25;26;27 - 00;25;31;07

Jeanne

Oh, I didn't even know that, coming into this today. Oh, that's. Yeah, that's really special.

00;25;31;15 - 00;25;42;04

Brother Lee

Yes, it is. It not officially on the Episcopal calendar, but that doesn't mean anything to Episcopalians who have a devotion to the Blessed Mother.

00;25;43;09 - 00;25;48;28

Jeanne

Around about what time was that that you got into that space?

00;25;49;01 - 00;26;11;12

Brother Lee

We decided to really get back into church in 2014 after being here in Phoenix for about three years, we visited a couple of parishes, didn't really feel that welcome in them. It — not so much that, Oh, you're LGBTQ you're, we don't know what to do with you. It's like, Oh, you're new, we don't know what to do with you.

00;26;11;13 - 00;26;12;24

Jeanne

Oh, right. Yeah. Just on that level.

00;26;12;24 - 00;26;23;04

Brother Lee

Yeah, just on that level. It's like, Oh, yeah, no, you're gay. That's cool. It's like, Well, we don't know you and it's really tacky to ask how much you're pledging.

00;26;23;19 - 00;26;32;22

Jeanne

Yeah, right. So was that a problem in general when you moved to Arizona that you found people were not comfortable with new people, or just in that context.

00;26;32;22 - 00;27;00;17

Brother Lee

In certain contexts? Yes, some Arizonans were like, oh, hi, we don't know you. Now, the bear community was completely different, but the bear community does tend to be a little open, almost to a fault. [Both laughing] But yeah, work was a little standoffish. A few other, the neigh— it took us a while to get to know the neighbors.

00;27;01;20 - 00;27;20;06

Jeanne

Yeah, I've found that to be, especially depending on just kind of like the physical geography of a neighborhood, you know, whether there's parking, you know, whether there's street parking or individual garages or whatever the situation is, sometimes it can be almost impossible to connect with your neighbors.

00;27;20;16 - 00;27;55;08

Brother Lee

Yeah. And of course, being on the West, in the West Valley, our neighbors weren't exactly all that welcoming to a gay couple. We didn't have anything untoward happen. It's just that things were maybe just a little chillier. One set of neighbors was openly hostile until they realized just how big I am. I mean, being at like 6'4" and 300 pounds, it can like — when somebody's being obnoxious and then you stand up, they realize, oh, that was a mistake.

00;27;56;25 - 00;28;00;08

Brother Lee

He's really big.

00;28;00;08 - 00;28;08;17

Jeanne

Yeah, well, I think also you do just have kind of a calming presence. So I imagine the combination of those factors will cool people down if they're.

00;28;08;17 - 00;28;08;29

Brother Lee

I think I was scowling at the time

00;28;08;29 - 00;28;09;22

Jeanne

So maybe a little less calming.

00;28;09;22 - 00;28;10;20

Jeanne

I don't know.

00;28;10;20 - 00;28;29;09

Jeanne

I think, you know, you're mentioning that Hugh was involved in leading a bear group in Cincinnati when you came here, did you also try to get involved in organizing community spaces or did you find there was already just enough happening.

00;28;29;09 - 00;28;30;02

Brother Lee

Oh there was enough happening

00;28;30;02 - 00;28;31;04

Jeanne

Oh that's great.

00;28;32;10 - 00;28;50;22

Brother Lee

Early on we got involved with the bear community here. It is a very party centric group and Hugh and I are starting to get a little older and found that it's a little more difficult to keep up. Plus, I have a history of liver disease in my family and I was just pushing it.

00;28;52;20 - 00;29;15;12

Jeanne

Oh, right. I think the bear community isn't something I've been able to get to know very well. But on one of the neighborhood streets I like to drive on a lot, one of the most beautiful houses has a bear pride flag hanging, and it's delightful. And I always just feel like, there's not even that many people around that will fly a generic pride flag in my neighborhood.

00;29;15;21 - 00;29;38;27

Jeanne

And this this person has this specific community pride flag, which I think is wonderful. And for me, that's been like my main perception of the bear community in Phoenix. It's just like, these people must be amazing because look at this display of pride. But that's kind of the whole knowledge I have. It sounds like there's actually just a really active and positive community.

00;29;39;05 - 00;29;42;21

Brother Lee

Yeah, I mean, Hugh and I have been out of that scene for a while.

00;29;42;21 - 00;29;42;29

Jeanne

Yeah.

00;29;43;20 - 00;30;02;27

Brother Lee

Mainly because we, the bear community is very open. And Hugh and I had decided to close our relationship a few years ago, especially when I decided to take a religious vow. So, yeah, open relationships and religious vows tend not to go hand-in-hand.

00;30;02;27 - 00;30;12;13

Jeanne

There's not a lot of support for that, but there's not a lot of support for LGBT people taking religious vows in general.

00;30;12;13 - 00;30;37;15

Brother Lee

Well, it's really interesting. The order I belong to is very supportive. I mean, they're very traditional. Their theology is very traditional. Their adherence to scripture is very traditional, but they are very accepting of the LGBTQ. There's okay, I don't want to like out anybody or mention things without their permission, but they're out online on social media as well.

00;30;37;26 - 00;30;51;21

Brother Lee

And it happens to be the Anglican Dominican order, like the Roman Catholic Dominicans, we, we have, we resurrected the Dominican Order after about 400 years in 1999.

00;30;52;06 - 00;30;53;00

Jeanne

That's so cool.

00;30;53;13 - 00;31;21;25

Brother Lee

It is. And so being more along the lines of it's not a celibate men's order or a celibate women's order, the Roman Catholic Dominicans have those branches of the Dominican order, the celibate men and celibate women, but they also have a third order of men and women who are Dominican, but they, they have a different set of vows for the fact that they can be married.

00;31;22;08 - 00;31;30;20

Brother Lee

And we have that same structure where we allow married and unmarried brothers and sisters.

00;31;30;20 - 00;31;34;07

Jeanne

What led you to the decision to pursue that path?

00;31;34;28 - 00;31;37;14

Brother Lee

Oh, gee, how much time have we got?

00;31;38;10 - 00;31;40;05

Jeanne

We've got some time.

00;31;40;05 - 00;32;13;06

Brother Lee

It's a, I've always had a feeling that there, that God had wanted me to do more with my life than just sit back in a pew and be there on a Sunday. And I have — our parish did an exercise called Spiritual Gifts where we sit down, we take a very lengthy questionnaire, confidentially, that you get to grade yourself when you're done.

00;32;13;06 - 00;32;44;15

Brother Lee

On what your spiritual gifts are based on the questions you answered in the points that you tally up. And mine leaned toward study, teaching and preaching, and it's like, Oh no, no, no, no, no, no. So three weeks later, I took it again and got the same results and I thought, Oh no. So I waited a couple of years more, not years, but a few months more, took it again, same results.

00;32;44;15 - 00;33;13;23

Brother Lee

And so I thought and we already had some religious, um, in our community and they were Benedictines. And the idea of periods of silence really didn't sit well with me. When I was in the Orthodox Church I did join a monastery for a short period of time and my smart mouth got me into trouble so many times that that monastery had the most immaculate, clean, sparkling toilets ever.

00;33;14;29 - 00;33;18;10

Brother Lee

And you can guess what my penance was.

00;33;18;10 - 00;33;20;02

Jeanne

Yeah This was in your in your twenties?

00;33;20;03 - 00;33;50;16

Brother Lee

This was in my twenties. Yeah, when I had an even more smart mouth than I do now. But the whole idea of being able to, like, not just sit and study, which I like to do, but also proclaim and teach and all that, which is what I like to do. I thought, well, does the Episcopal Church have an order that is dedicated to that, whether it's an actual habited order or whether it's an actual association or group like that?

00;33;50;16 - 00;34;15;02

Brother Lee

And I started looking and I immediately — the Benedictines were like prodding me, saying, We think you have a call to religious life. You think you have a call to religious life. And I said, Well, you know what? It would have to be a Dominican or a Jesuit. And because the Jesuits were originally founded to put an end to the Anglican Church, we don't have them.

00;34;15;02 - 00;34;38;17

Brother Lee

So, and I didn't think any more. But then I found looking in the resources for the Episcopal Church of the United States, their national website, there was an actual Dominican order and I thought, okay, this is odd. So I set out an inquiry thinking that I might get a response. I might not. Sometimes they can be really slow.

00;34;38;24 - 00;35;06;01

Brother Lee

Remember what I said about glacial? But they got back in touch with me really quickly and I said, Well, here's the thing. I'm gay and I'm a, I'm married to my husband. And they said, we follow the canons of the Episcopal Church. That won't be a problem. Little did I know that there were already several other LGBTQ — married LGBTQ — within the order at the time.

00;35;06;01 - 00;35;21;15

Brother Lee

So I did a short three month inquiry process then was a postulant for a year, then went through a two year novitiate, and in August of 2021 I took my solemn vows as a married brother, so.

00;35;21;23 - 00;35;31;04

Jeanne

Oh wow. Back in your twenties when you first kind of pursued a similar path, what was it about monastic life that attracted you?

00;35;31;28 - 00;36;02;03

Brother Lee

Life in a rule — I, I like organization, but if I don't have a rule to follow, I'm all over the place. I need, in order to keep my life well-ordered and just so I can, like, do something simple, like, find my keys, I have to have a place for them. Otherwise, if I don't want put my keys in my place, or if I don't have a set time for my prayers, I misplace both of them.

00;36;03;00 - 00;36;28;28

Brother Lee

It's just who I am. And the idea of an order that caters, that is built on the expression of the spiritual gifts I happen to share with that order, that also gives me a rule of life to adhere to, to bring order to my otherwise, I don't think I'm A.D.D., but sometimes I act as if I were.

00;36;29;14 - 00;36;38;15

Brother Lee

If I didn't have, like, my planner and my smartphone and that dedicated hook to put my keys I'd be, I'd be one hot mess.

00;36;38;15 - 00;36;44;22

Jeanne

I'm exactly the same. I have to have my pens and my notebooks and my, here's where my glasses go at night and all of that.

00;36;44;25 - 00;37;01;05

Brother Lee

Yeah, and if I misplace it, Hugh can tell you, I will like go around the house for 15 minutes howling, Where are my keys? Where did I put my pen? And it also doesn't help that we have three cats and sometimes they walk away with stuff.

00;37;01;21 - 00;37;08;10

Jeanne

Yeah, that's fair. Well, I'd be curious to know, you mentioned you moved to Ohio for grad school.

00;37;08;11 - 00;37;09;02

Brother Lee

That's correct.

00;37;09;02 - 00;37;09;27

Jeanne

What did you study?

00;37;10;23 - 00;37;21;02

Brother Lee

Well, it was classical civilization. I had —

Jeanne

Oh, wow.

Brother Lee

Oh, yeah. I had a fairly, I had a fairly arcane education.

00;37;21;12 - 00;37;25;04

Jeanne

That's exciting to me personally, and maybe again, like two listeners. We'll see.

00;37;25;22 - 00;37;48;22

Brother Lee

Yeah. Two listeners. Yes. Both of them at opposite ends of the valley. Yeah. No, I, I started out on a fairly conventional path when I went to university, I did the college prep thing in high school, went to university. You can tell, I'm from Canada, I call it university. And I started out in the sciences and I was thinking I was going to major in physics.

00;37;48;22 - 00;37;51;26

Brother Lee

I really liked physics in college. Or, in school.

00;37;51;26 - 00;37;52;29

Jeanne

Well, physics is beautiful.

00;37;53;01 - 00;38;32;18

Brother Lee

Physics is beautiful. But the problem is physics also involves mathematics.

Jeanne

It's true.

Brother Lee

And I thought I was good at mathematics until I took calculus. And then I realized I barely squeaked by with a B-minus in calculus, and I think it was because the professor took pity on me, that I realized that physics probably wouldn't be a good move. However, I took Latin as my humanity requirement and got an A in the class and the head of the classics department said, Would you consider changing majors?

00;38;32;18 - 00;39;00;16

Brother Lee

We've got this scholarship here for you if you do. That's like, Well, this was fun. I seem to have a talent for it and there's no calculus involved.

Jeanne

That's true.

Brother Lee

And so I switched my majors and ended up bringing up my GPA. And so I graduated with a major in Latin and I technically didn't minor because it was like sort of a double major in Latin.

00;39;00;16 - 00;39;20;24

Brother Lee

But I also did the ancient history and classical civilization in ancient Greek classes, and then I went at the end of a degree like that, Well, what do you do? You either go for a Bachelors of Education or you go to graduate school, or you work flipping burgers.

00;39;20;24 - 00;39;39;20

Jeanne

It's, it's frustrating to me because I looked at similar options. I ended up getting a math degree, but I looked at all of those like — I loved Latin when I was a kid and I got to study Latin for a bit — and I looked at those kinds of things and I just thought, But what am I going to do with my life if I actually study something like that?

00;39;39;20 - 00;40;09;22

Brother Lee

The thing with something like in classical civilization or something like that, usually it's an applied history or something like that. But the competition for positions in that field is fierce because there's not a lot of positions. Yeah. And so if you want to like, there's still a use for it's not a huge use, but people do eventually have to go back and say, well, what did this ancient text say?

00;40;09;22 - 00;40;25;07

Brother Lee

Or was there a clue here as to what happened in history back then? Or did they really mean to say that? And then you have to go back and dig in the ancient texts and try to figure out what that word was or if it was on a burned-off edge of a manuscript, try to figure out what that word would have been.

00;40;25;08 - 00;40;51;03

Brother Lee

And those positions in in academia and in the world are, they're valuable, but they're few and far between because you don't need a lot of them to fulfill that need. You just need a few experts here and there throughout the United States in the world, and that fulfills the need. And so generally the school system produces more than there are to fill that need.

00;40;51;03 - 00;40;54;02

Brother Lee

And so the competition gets to be a little cutthroat.

00;40;54;21 - 00;40;55;19

Jeanne

Yeah, definitely.

00;40;55;22 - 00;41;16;23

Brother Lee

Oh, yeah, definitely. It's, if you got a, if you got a Bachelor of Science in Business Administration. Oh, gosh, yeah. The world is your oyster because everybody is like putting on their job descriptions. We'd like you to have a business admin degree, or we'd like you to have a Bachelor of Science and computer programing degree or something.

00;41;16;23 - 00;41;20;25

Jeanne

Like, everyone needs middle managers, but they don't need experts in classical history.

00;41;20;25 - 00;41;32;20

Brother Lee

Yeah, they don't need experts. Or it's like — what really cracks me up are the entry level positions which don't require a lot of expertise who say, you need a bachelor's degree.

00;41;33;09 - 00;41;33;21

Jeanne

Yeah.

00;41;33;21 - 00;41;36;09

Brother Lee

What for? For data entry? Really?

00;41;36;09 - 00;42;01;01

Jeanne

Yeah, I, I think the way you were talking about being able to look for meaning someone might miss just from like, well I know this word means this and this word means this. Having a real sense of the culture of speech. Do you personally find meaning in being able to see how people lived and spoke and thought 2000 years ago?

00;42;02;00 - 00;42;33;26

Brother Lee

I do. Those things — the human response is pretty much universal to stressors of whatever source. And so if it's a case of okay, so the stressors might be a little different; here, you might be dealing with like wage slavery where you're being paid less than a living wage for a boss that doesn't like to give you the PTO that you are actually due according to the employee manual and stuff like that.

00;42;34;11 - 00;43;08;12

Brother Lee

And then you have, you can like look back and see, well, they had that similar situation, okay, it wasn't called wage slavery, it was called outright slavery. And plus it also is very valuable in comparing social ills of that time with social ills of this time, such as how did like the difference between various nationalities in Rome play out against like the very involuted caste-like structure of racial identity in the United States.

00;43;08;16 - 00;43;10;07

Brother Lee

Which Rome did not have.

00;43;10;29 - 00;43;11;11

Jeanne

Right.

00;43;11;23 - 00;43;20;14

Brother Lee

So that helps illustrate the point that some of the problems that we have in America today are of America's own making.

00;43;20;25 - 00;43;31;28

Jeanne

Yes. Yeah. I think a lot of that traces back more to 15th century Spanish history than, than Rome.

00;43;32;08 - 00;44;09;21

Brother Lee

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, all Western European history in general. A lot of the attitudes that we see Spain having toward people in the Americas very definitely were reflected by the French and the English as well, and the Germans in Africa and the Dutch in Africa, because they lost their North American holdings really early on in the process. But no, I mean, being a Dominican, some of the things that we've been looking at is the Dominicans role in studying the doctrine of discovery.

00;44;09;29 - 00;44;10;04

Jeanne

Right.

00;44;10;08 - 00;44;21;17

Brother Lee

And its impact and there — a very influential Dominican from that period. Bartolomé de las Casas.

00;44;22;08 - 00;44;23;17

Jeanne

Yes, yes. Oh yeah, I know him.

00;44;23;25 - 00;44;53;11

Brother Lee

Oh, yeah. Bartolomé did a couple of missteps, trying to ameliorate the lot of the Native American in the Spanish Empire and made a couple of suggestions that went horribly back, horribly backfired on him, and realized that he'd spent the rest of his career just trying to undo everything and then try to make things better for African, people of African descent and people of American descent.

00;44;53;22 - 00;45;18;25

Brother Lee

But it was an uphill battle and there were a lot of people like Sepulveda who were very much against him. And of course, the economic interests of the Holy Roman emperor, who at the time was also the Spanish king and sort of like sort of put him on Sepulveda side. It's sort of like, well, you know, I sort of understand where you're coming from, Reverend Father.

00;45;19;22 - 00;45;26;17

Brother Lee

It's yeah, really interesting. But wow, look at all that gold coming in.

00;45;26;17 - 00;45;26;28

Jeanne

Right.

00;45;27;03 - 00;46;01;23

Brother Lee

And the same thing happened in England. Wow, look at all that gold coming in. And they were, Western Europe was just coming out of the institution of serfdom, which was in itself an institutionalized slavery, but wasn't race based. That was a purely, that was basically like a class system that they tried to pass down as a caste system, but then when they went over to the new world, all of a sudden there were all these non-Christian peoples that they were exposed to.

00;46;02;06 - 00;46;25;02

Brother Lee

And Western Europe took a very non-Christian approach to these non-Christian peoples. It's a major blot on the face of the church and we are like just doing all sorts of backpedaling. Some of us, some of us. Some Christian churches are still very much embroiled in the sin of racism and the sin of colonialism.

00;46;25;19 - 00;46;49;11

Jeanne

Yes. But it seems like for you on some level, being able to connect to things that people might associate with that like more traditional Christianity, being able to connect to that and being able to look back beyond some of that really blemished history is something that, as far as I can tell, helps you, to connect to it more in a way that's healing and positive.

00;46;50;04 - 00;47;24;24

Brother Lee

You cannot heal if you don't know what has caused the problem to begin with and just glossing over the sins of our past that we're all complicit in because we're still participating in the systems that grew out of this. I mean, none of us are free of its taint, really. And the big thing is, is to be cognizant of that and realize that, yeah, I've got some attitudes that I was brought up in that I didn't think anything about.

00;47;24;24 - 00;47;34;10

Brother Lee

And they, they're like automatic and it's like, oh, well, this is a problem. Really just how Christlike is this? Not very.

00;47;34;10 - 00;47;34;22

Jeanne

Yeah.

00;47;34;22 - 00;47;59;18

Brother Lee

And to think that the churches were so complicit in it, we still have a major problem. Even in our most liberal churches, because of course, here in the United States, we're still American. We still have people who have been brought up and steeped in this system. I mean, when they talk about systemic racism, they're not talking about — or critical race theory.

00;47;59;26 - 00;48;25;12

Brother Lee

What they're, just talking about is like what is actually happening, what has happened? How are things like programing us to move forward? It's the same thing is if you grew up in an alcoholic family, you've got programing that happens there. Granted. So your mom and dad didn't beat you or call you names or verbally abuse you or anything like that.

00;48;25;12 - 00;48;43;14

Brother Lee

But they still drank and they still had an impaired functionality with society and with your family. There was still dysfunction there. I mean, granted, that's more the exception than the rule. I mean, usually alcoholism ushers in a whole lot of other, big massive problems.

00;48;43;14 - 00;48;45;22

Jeanne

But sometimes it can be just that.

00;48;45;23 - 00;49;09;01

Brother Lee

It, it may be, it may look fairly benign, but there's still issues that go with that. And the children of alcoholics or addicts grow up with certain problems with society and with their own interpersonal relationships that if they don't turn and address them, will still continue to program their own responses and perpetuate the cycle.

00;49;09;10 - 00;49;14;20

Jeanne

You can never just say, well, I'm making a fresh start. It's not enough to just say it. This work you have to do.

00;49;14;20 - 00;49;40;21

Brother Lee

Right. There's work you have to do. And it's work that you have to do until the day you die. For me, the message that I took away from the church is, it's not a case of, like, some some churches say, hey, just say a little prayer and then everything's hunky dory and it's like, no it's not. It's a whole process of, like, turning away from the negative toward God and the positive.

00;49;40;21 - 00;50;19;21

Brother Lee

It's all about, what we call sin is negativity, death, corruption, all of those things that basically denigrate people, bring people into, create problems for people, or even cause their illness or damage or death. And there's plenty of that in this world, and we all have to turn away from that. And I have always said that there's a lot more grace for a moral atheist than there is for an immoral Christian.

00;50;19;21 - 00;50;31;04

Brother Lee

There's, in the final judgment, the moral atheist is probably going to get a better shake from God than the immoral Christians.

00;50;31;04 - 00;50;57;22

Jeanne

I'm really grateful to Brother Lee for giving me the opportunity to record this conversation. And thanks to all of you for listening! I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. If you'd like to catch up on past episodes of the podcast, you can find the Arizona Equals Conversation on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or any podcast player, and you can visit our archive at EqualityArizona.org/Stories.

00;50;58;25 - 00;51;04;01

Jeanne

Thanks again for listening, and don't forget to tune in next week.

This week on the podcast, we’re excited to feature an interview with Jesse Shank and Gabe Hagen, co-owners of Brick Road Coffee. We’ve pretty much fallen in love with the coffee shop and the incredible community forming around it, so it was a real joy to have Gabe and Jesse on the podcast. [Note: this episode is best enjoyed on headphones, while drinking coffee at a certain coffee shop in Tempe.]

Links & Shownotes

* Brick Road Coffee

* Brick Road Events

* Equality Arizona Events Calendar

* one•n•ten

* GLSEN Arizona

* Southwest Center

* Greater Phoenix Equality Chamber of Commerce

* Free Mom Hugs

* Queerizona

* Lee Call / Arizona Equals Lee

* Changing Hands Tempe

Full Transcript

00;00;01;01 - 00;00;28;17

Jeanne

From Equality Arizona, I'm Jeanne Woodbury. On today's episode of The Arizona Equals Conversation, I talked with Jesse and Gabe, co-owners of Brick Road Coffee. Over the past year, Brick Road has become something of a destination and a beloved community hub for LGBTQ+ people living in the East Valley. Located on Rural Road, just south of the 60, the coffee shop is nestled into the heart of the city of Tempe.

00;00;29;20 - 00;00;55;18

Jeanne

My first experience at Brick Road was on the recommendation of a previous guest on the podcast, the author Lee Call, who held the launch event for their most recent novel, The Angel Room, at the Coffee Shop. If you'd like to listen to that conversation, you can visit our archive at EqualityArizona.org/stories, or you can follow the show in Spotify, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get podcasts.

00;00;56;20 - 00;01;17;00

Jeanne

Today's episode features the first joint interview I've done for the show, and I was a little intimidated, but really excited. Now, I have to clarify that because this is a podcast and you only have our voices, it's not going to be immediately clear who's who. So I had Gabe and Jesse record a little intro just to establish their voices.

00;01;18;05 - 00;01;24;12

Jesse

I'm Jesse Shank, and I'm the older one.

[All laughing]

00;01;24;12 - 00;01;26;15

Gabe

Gabe Hagen, the younger one.

[All laughing]

00;01;27;19 - 00;01;54;15

Jeanne

Perfect. All right. Thank you. Now, before I get the full interview started, I want to tease a couple of events we have coming up at Brick Road in the month of October, on October 9th and October 17th. One of those is a book club. Now, we don't have any information online yet, but if you visit EqualityArizona.org/events soon, you'll be able to find out more and to register. And that out of the way,

00;01;54;28 - 00;02;11;16

Jeanne

Let's get into the interview. Thanks for listening!

00;02;16;13 - 00;02;32;00

Jeanne

I really wanted to get a chance to talk about how Brick Road came to be, and I think on some level that has to start with how you two me each other. And so maybe we can start by talking a little bit about your history.

00;02;33;18 - 00;03;00;12

Jesse

Well, I'll keep it to: We met in San Diego. And you're right. There's a lot of elements of our past that kind of lead to Brick Road as individuals and as a couple. And so I, at the time when we met, was a bartender and a bar manager for a small business in San Diego. They owned a couple of nightclubs, and I'd worked for them for 11 years at the time, I believe.

00;03;00;12 - 00;03;22;25

Jesse

So, you know, I kind of had a background in an LGBTQ queer small business community space in San Diego. And yes, I was lucky enough to meet Gabe at the club. I don't know if Gabe was 21 yet, but I did meet him.

00;03;22;25 - 00;03;25;25

Gabe

For legal reasons, I'll say yes.

00;03;25;25 - 00;03;42;12

Jesse

And he was a bank teller at the bank that that business patronized. So I would see him there. I would see him around town. And he eventually agreed to go on a date with me.

00;03;42;13 - 00;03;46;16

Jeanne

That's really nice. Had you been in San Diego for your whole life up to that point?

00;03;46;16 - 00;04;09;21

Jesse

I went to, I moved to San Diego in 1994 to go to college at UCSD, and I moved to Hillcrest, which was the gayborhood, yeah in about '98 and promptly put my biology and animal behavior degree to use bartending at a gay bar, and did that for a long time.

00;04;10;02 - 00;04;13;11

Jeanne

There's some similarities, just tracking behavior.

Jesse

Sure. Yeah.

00;04;13;24 - 00;04;16;18

Jesse

A lot of a lot of animal behavior out there.

00;04;17;11 - 00;04;23;12

Gabe

And I moved to San Diego in 2007, and that's when we met, pretty quickly after I moved.

00;04;23;12 - 00;04;32;26

Jesse

So, yeah, Gabe was brave and moved to San Diego by himself and and got a roommate on Craigslist before they were Craigslist murders.

00;04;32;26 - 00;04;37;00

Gabe

Before the Dateline specials about Craigslist, I found a roommate on Craigslist and moved in with them.

00;04;37;02 - 00;04;48;11

Jeanne

I think a lot of people have found pretty great things on Craigslist. I mean, they've changed it now without the personals section and everything. But, what took you to San Diego at that point? I mean, that's a pretty big move to make.

00;04;48;17 - 00;05;08;00

Gabe

Yeah, I grew up in Iowa, so, you know, really accepting and loving Iowa. [Laughs.] So I turned 18 and I flew across the country. So I just wanted to go somewhere, somewhere different. Originally I was thinking San Francisco, but my best friend moved to San Diego to go to school, so I decided to just follow him and go that way.

00;05;08;00 - 00;05;10;16

Jeanne

Oh, so you knew someone in San Diego already?

00;05;10;17 - 00;05;24;20

Gabe

I knew one person, yeah. So we were, we still are friends, but like, we lived different lifestyles. I found the gayborhood and—

Jeanne

Yeah.

Gabe

— yeah, that was, that was like, oh, there's a world of people like me. That's amazing.

00;05;24;21 - 00;05;39;03

Jeanne

Yeah. I feel like moving to Arizona from San Diego, where there's, it seems like a community you were pretty embedded in over a long period of time, isn't necessarily an intuitive choice that that everyone would make.

00;05;39;19 - 00;06;04;17

Jesse

Sure it took some convincing and it took the Great Recession honestly to kind of jar me out of my, I'll call it a rut because I you know, I was a bartender for probably way too long after college before, you know, going into a more traditional career. But you know it, Gabe made good arguments. He was a good motivation, a good reason to make some changes.

00;06;05;20 - 00;06;31;17

Jesse

And like I said, the Great Recession kind of changed the financial landscape for me. And we were looking to find a home, which San Diego didn't present many options for homeownership at the time. My parents were living in Arizona at that time, so we came to visit and found some cheap real estate and kind of said, you know, let's just do it.

00;06;31;29 - 00;06;58;04

Jesse

I'll say, you know, we missed San Diego for a while. And that shift from a very gay neighborhood, very queer space, you know, where rainbow flags on every window, and, you know, you did, you walked down the street holding hands at three in the morning. It didn't matter, right. You weren't, you weren't afraid there. And Arizona was a big change in that respect.

00;06;58;23 - 00;07;01;05

Jesse

We did move to Laveen, to be fair, right after that.

00;07;01;07 - 00;07;01;27

Jeanne

Oh, yeah.

00;07;02;02 - 00;07;08;12

Jesse

So probably as different as you can get within the valley from San Diego.

00;07;08;19 - 00;07;13;15

Jeanne

That's a big change. What were your arguments, your pro-Arizona arguments?

00;07;14;01 - 00;07;38;16

Gabe

Real estate. And at the time, you know, I had this idealized version of like being closer to family again, because his family just moved out here from the Bay Area. And it was that, you know, white picket fence, the let's get some dogs and let's get a house and let's see — that idealized version of what I thought I wanted. And then we moved to Arizona and it was great.

00;07;38;16 - 00;07;47;25

Gabe

We're, we still miss San Diego, but it definitely came with a lot of unintended consequences, I guess.

00;07;47;25 - 00;08;23;20

Jesse

I suspect that to some extent Gabe also didn't mind removing me from the bar scene, the bar and club scene in San Diego that I was a little bit too embedded in for too long. And it's not the healthiest of, of scenes all the time. And it's one of the, one of the things that kind of led to Brick Road being what it is, is finding a way to have that type of space and that type of community that doesn't have alcohol component or a partying component and was a little bit more inclusive, so.

00;08;23;20 - 00;08;42;11

Jeanne

I see a lot of people on the Internet talk about that kind of idea of like, where's the space for me to go where I don't have to worry about people drinking or having to buy a drink. So I think maybe it's a good time to talk about how Brick Road came to be. You moved to Laveen initially.

00;08;43;01 - 00;08;47;20

Jeanne

How long did you stay in Laveen? Are you still in Laveen?

Jesse

No.

Jeanne

Oh, okay.

00;08;47;20 - 00;09;12;09

Jesse

Well, we were there long enough. You know, Laveen was kind of a midway point between the two jobs that we found in Arizona to facilitate the move. And then we both ended up working in Tempe for financial institutions, and it made sense to move to Tempe for that reason if none other, right. And then we kind of fell in love with Tempe pretty quickly, and

00;09;13;10 - 00;09;27;07

Gabe

But we noticed that Tempe was lacking. It didn't have a gay bar and it doesn't have a lot of those queer spaces. The East Valley in general was pretty dry in queer spaces.

00;09;27;07 - 00;09;28;10

Jeanne

And it always has been.

00;09;28;10 - 00;09;47;24

Gabe

Yeah. And so that's one thing that really frustrated me is like, Tempe is such an inclusive city to not have those spaces. So when we originally opened Brick Road, I don't know if we intended to be… We definitely didn't intend to be as queer of a space as it is now. And a lot of it was out of fear.

00;09;48;18 - 00;10;15;16

Gabe

Just not not sure if leaning into that queer identity would be beneficial to business. So we did it in subtle ways to stay true to ourselves. And then once we opened our doors, we found out that the community really needed that. The community was reminding us that, yes, we have a desert out here in the East Valley. And so we just kept leaning in more and more and more and letting the space kind of evolve into what it's become, which has been really fun,

00;10;15;16 - 00;10;44;14

Jesse

I think, you know, it may be important to note that coming from the gayborhood in San Diego to Arizona, we became homebodies pretty quickly and didn't venture out. And, you know, we're aware that there's a scene in downtown Phoenix, the central Phoenix area, but we we kind of removed ourselves from all of that and just focused on career. And that was probably to our detriment as well.

00;10;44;14 - 00;11;10;05

Jesse

Right, and one of the real impetus — I'm not even going to be able to say it, but impetus for opening Brick Road was escaping some of the pressures of that career. So, so it is that when we did make the move we weren't sure how far we could go and really how brave we wanted to be and and what was out there, really, what was the community like?

00;11;10;05 - 00;11;12;10

Jesse

Because we'd removed ourselves from it for a bit.

00;11;12;19 - 00;11;21;00

Jeanne

How fast was that evolution then? From the sort of uncertain kind of hedging your bets start to how things are now?

00;11;21;12 - 00;11;50;19

Gabe

Pretty quick.

Jesse

Yeah very quick. We're risk averse in business and, you know, and in life in general to the point that when we opened the cafe, we did it without employees for a month. You know, we stepped in so that we weren't risking a lot of the bucket that we had right away. And in the same way we hinted at things and we put little Easter eggs around and we did things that we thought were really important, like set up the lending library.

00;11;51;15 - 00;12;09;22

Jesse

But it was very, very rapidly the community that the people that were coming in made it clear that this is going to be good, this is going to be you know, something that they wanted. And, you know, we just kind of threw it in at that point. We're going for it.

00;12;09;28 - 00;12;28;10

Gabe

I think pretty quickly we started getting some regulars that were driving from like Queen Creek on like, two or three times a week to come use our space. And they were part of our community. And it's just, we were like, wow, this is this is how much it's needed. And so then we just kept leaning in more. We kept doing more things.

00;12;28;10 - 00;12;45;17

Gabe

And then Pride Month rolled around and the flags went up and they just haven't come down. And I don't know if they ever will.

Jeanne

Nice.

Jesse

Cleaning.

Gabe

Yeah, I think well, I think one of the biggest things that helped too was that rainbow Christmas tree. We did lean in for Christmas, and we bought a Christmas tree that was Rainbow.

00;12;46;05 - 00;12;57;15

Gabe

And that like, I think was the first real flag that we planted of like, this is a queer space. This is a visual identity, it was a Queer-mas tree. We collected gifts for one-n-ten.

00;12;57;27 - 00;12;58;22

Jeanne

Oh, that's wonderful.

00;12;58;22 - 00;12;59;16

Gabe

And it was just.

00;12;59;24 - 00;13;13;10

Jesse

You could see people's eyes light up when they when they walked in the door and there was this rainbow Christmas tree in like direct line of sight, you know? And the joy is just like, yeah, we got to keep going with this stuff, so.

00;13;13;10 - 00;13;41;02

Jeanne

I think it's kind of the nature of the metro area that, you know, even knowing like, yeah, I could drive to Melrose from Tempe or from Chandler, it's not something that you're gonna do that often, or it's not a natural choice to make necessarily. And so being able to just walk into a coffee shop in Tempe as opposed to having to make like a dedicated, you know, potentially half hour, 45 minute drive, it's a big deal.

00;13;41;02 - 00;14;06;18

Jeanne

And when I spoke to Lee Call, the author, they were telling me that it was just kind of an accidental discovery for them after going to Jerry's Artarama and just finding out, oh, wait, this is, this is super gay. And then another big moment for them was seeing that lending library. It sounds like that was kind of one of the earliest things you really leaned into.

00;14;06;19 - 00;14;28;04

Gabe

That was important for me from day one. I wanted to have that. Growing up in Iowa, it was a very small town. Our bookstore was Barnes & Noble. It wasn't like we had an independent bookstore. And I mean, I grew up my graduating class was 126 people. So like super small town, everybody knew everybody; you knew whose parents were whose.

00;14;28;04 - 00;14;50;03

Gabe

And I didn't always know who was related to somebody in my class. So like going to Barnes & Noble, they had a gay and lesbian section. And I remember I was trying to buy the book Middlesex and like, just because somebody had told me that that was a little bit queer and I was like, what? So like I was trying to see myself in a book and I was terrified to stand in front of that section because I felt like that was outing myself.

00;14;50;14 - 00;14;59;05

Gabe

Buying the book, I'd have to go up to somebody and actually give them the book and pay for it and didn't know if I would know them or if they would know me in some way or know my family in some way.

00;14;59;06 - 00;15;01;09

Jeanne

That's a good point, because it's such a small town.

00;15;01;09 - 00;15;19;23

Gabe

Such a small town. So like all of those little, like micro traumas of like outing yourself was just so detrimental. So I wanted to create a bookshelf that was just queer representation in some form, either a queer author, queer story and just have it so people can walk up to it, look at it, grab a book, put it in your bag and walk away.

00;15;20;11 - 00;15;33;25

Gabe

Like there's no check out process. There's no nothing. It's just, here's a space where you can go if you don't. It's a coffee shop like, so kind of remove some of those boundaries or barriers as my goal.

00;15;34;18 - 00;16;05;22

Jesse

I think that, you know, when we first started talking about opening a coffee shop, we were looking at, you know, different companies that already existed, franchises; we were talking about different ways to do it. But we did have things that we wanted our coffee shop to have, right, nd things that we wanted to do. And we we, we wanted to support charities that were important to us and social causes and have things like the lending library.

00;16;05;22 - 00;16;31;04

Jesse

And that's one of the things that really led us away from the franchise idea, which may have been a little bit less risky, would have cost a lot more money up front to get started. But, you know, in general, it's a proven concept, but would we have the control to be able to do those things? And we talked to some of those companies and we really wouldn't, you know, we had to get permission —

Gabe

— to donate.

00;16;31;04 - 00;16;41;11

Jesse

Yeah. To engage with other organizations in the community and things like that. And so, you know, it was kind of clear like we, we've got to go independent.

00;16;41;11 - 00;16;57;09

Gabe

Yeah, we did some research on a couple of them that we were really interested in. And you start looking at who owns the company, that owns the company, that owns the company, and you start seeing all these like Mar-A-Lago pictures like that and you're like — probably won't get the approval. So maybe not the best people to be in business with.

00;16;57;10 - 00;17;26;06

Jeanne

Well, and they're protecting their brand on some level. Right. And now you've established your own brand, which means you can make whatever decisions you want.

Gabe

Yep.

Jeanne

You were mentioning those micro traumas; in like a more generic business sense, people talk about friction and often the way to create like a niche in the market is to find a way to remove friction for people in some kind of experience that they want, but for some reason aren't actually engaging in.

00;17;26;06 - 00;17;51;05

Jeanne

And I think that that's something that's really happening in terms of everything you're talking about: being in the East Valley, creating the space where people don't have to out themselves in an uncomfortable way or extend their limits too much. I think that anyone starting a business, and especially something as risky as any kind of brick and mortar can be, especially I think, there's a million coffee shops right, all around.

00;17;52;01 - 00;17;55;21

Jeanne

What gave you the confidence to actually jump into that?

00;17;55;21 - 00;18;24;28

Jesse

You know, I think, you know, again, there were, there were certain things we wanted to accomplish with this, with the space ahead of time before we decided to go in, all in queer. And I think we were confident that those things would encourage community members to patronize us. So I, I didn't mention earlier, but it was very important to us to provide a living wage to our baristas, and pay good money.

00;18;24;28 - 00;18;44;23

Jesse

And, you know, that's another thing you can't necessarily control with the franchise, you know, but you know, yeah, we just assumed that if we supported the community and supported our employees, that we would get enough traction to survive, right.

00;18;44;29 - 00;19;14;15

Gabe

And there's definitely a lot of people that want to support people that do good business. And that's one area where we, we have that privilege. Like we both had corporate careers. I was able to step away from mine entirely to focus on Brick Road and that investment of my time, without requiring any type of compensation from the business, allowed us to enter paying our employees above minimum wage plus tips.

00;19;14;16 - 00;19;34;10

Gabe

We're not taking advantage of all the legislative loopholes that they give you when it comes to tipped employees where you can pay them less money and, you know, just really leaning into those values that allowed me to find better talent, allowed me to find talent that was really going to connect with our mission and help show that because that was the scariest part.

00;19;34;10 - 00;19;59;03

Gabe

When I started, it was just the two of us. There was no employees. So living out the values and the mission was super easy because we're setting it up and it's the only people that people engage with are going to be Jesse or myself. Once you add employees into that, now you're creating a safe space that's relying on other people to nurture our own community, to take care of our community.

00;19;59;03 - 00;20;21;11

Gabe

And so that's where I think treating the employees with a certain level of respect. Being transparent with them, they know where we're at as far as financials. They know how well the business is doing. They know why we're making certain decisions, because I don't hide that, because they deserve to know that information and it gives them more of a reason to buy into the business.

00;20;22;00 - 00;20;26;04

Gabe

And that just, that creates an ecosystem that really does support our community so much.

00;20;27;12 - 00;20;48;15

Jeanne

I think something I really wanted to learn coming into this conversation is how you approach building community. Because you're a space that's not just a community space, it's a space that has an actual community that's grown around it. And it seems like what you're saying is that that began at a very small and intentional level with your staff.

00;20;49;27 - 00;21;10;12

Jeanne

What else have you done to really be intentional about that? You mentioned that a lot of it was just listening to what people wanted and what people would respond to. But I've seen in general that it's actually really difficult to nurture that kind of community without being really intentional about it.

00;21;10;25 - 00;21;37;00

Gabe

I would agree it's been one of our — it's becoming one of our primary things that we have to spend our time focusing on, is nurturing that community. We started going into it very well-aware of the privileges that we carried, we're two cisgendered white men, like we, we just have to acknowledge that and realize where we're at, so we can only speak to our experiences.

00;21;37;00 - 00;21;58;17

Gabe

So we intentionally went in trying to seek out people that have different life experiences, that have different viewpoints, and ask, what do you, what does that community need? Because the one thing we were privileged to be able to have is a space that we could offer up if they knew something that their community needed, whether it be access to HIV testing or something like that.

00;21;58;17 - 00;22;30;28

Gabe

We had a space that we could try to go out and make that available. One thing that, one example is somebody mentioned that the trans community is further impacted by the stigma of access to menstrual products or the hygiene products. And so we made it part of our thing where now we have access to pads and tampons that are just free, because if you forget one, it's hard enough to ask if you're a cisgender individual, let alone part of the trans community.

00;22;30;28 - 00;22;45;21

Gabe

So that type of listening and being able to take our space to remove those barriers or set up some form of a group get together, or allowing people to use our space in a certain way.

00;22;46;07 - 00;23;01;27

Jesse

A lot of it is just staying out of the way and letting community do what community wants to do. And part of that is saying yes a lot, right. If somebody is saying, hey, can we do this here, can we have some space, can we have some time? You know, yes. I don't, I don't know how I'm going to do that, but yes, we'll do it.

00;23;01;27 - 00;23;30;00

Jesse

I don't know what will happen, but the owners of one of my favorite coffee shops in San Diego said to me a long time ago, if you're not building community, you don't have a coffee shop. Right, and I took that to heart. But what does that mean? How do you intentionally build community? And I think to some extent we got lucky that there was a real need for this space and the community was there, ready to use it.

00;23;31;04 - 00;24;07;01

Jesse

We are next to a nonprofit that hosts recovery meetings, which is a ready made community that has a lot of intersection to the queer community. So to some extent, there was already a community there, next door, ready to use the space and encourage others. Because when you come in as a customer for the first time, even if you're alone, you're going to see those interactions going on around you and that people are open to talk to strangers and you know that there's this kind of family festive atmosphere there and partake in it.

00;24;07;15 - 00;24;16;29

Jesse

So having that starter point, that sourdough starter community there, was a great benefit and I'm very grateful for that community.

00;24;17;24 - 00;24;47;24

Gabe

And I'm also just grateful for the other, the other people that have already formed so much community that allowed us to tap into their networks, like partners like one-n-ten, partners like GLSEN, partners like South West Center for HIV and AIDS, all of them, nd even Equality Arizona. I mean, there's another one! Like all these people that we just, they have their expertise, they know what they're doing, and they provide fantastic resources for different parts of our community.

00;24;48;09 - 00;25;03;09

Gabe

We just want to be a central hub. Like we look at ourselves as — I want to be that kind of info-dump of like where people can go to get access to a myriad of things. Like, I'm not going to be the expert, but I'm going to hopefully know somebody that knows somebody. That's my goal, so.

00;25;04;05 - 00;25;28;25

Jeanne

The last time I went to your coffee shop, I ended up sitting next to Mayor Corey Woods for a couple hours. Something I love about Tempe is, just by geographic happenstance it's completely landlocked, and a lot of things are really centralized in a way that isn't true for other cities. There's the Tempe Public Library. There aren't branches, there's just one library, and it's right down the street from you.

00;25;29;09 - 00;25;41;06

Jeanne

I think you mentioned there's a book club that you do in partnership with the Tempe Library. But in general, what has your experience been integrating into some of the existing Tempe institutions?

00;25;42;09 - 00;26;15;20

Jesse

Well, I'll just say the city of Tempe has been amazing to work with from the inception of the business to today. So, you know, as someone trying to start a business in the city of Tempe, all of their departments have, they're very responsive and helpful and they want to see us succeed. As far as the leadership, like the city council, the charities, the large businesses, the business community in Tempe, all of them.

00;26;15;20 - 00;26;23;07

Jesse

I just I don't, I don't know what to say about it. Gabe do you have anybody you want to shout out to, or?

00;26;23;17 - 00;27;02;28

Gabe

There's so many I mean, we've done — the city has just embraced us so quickly, whether that be the city officials, the actual city of Tempe, or just groups like Tempe Tourism is an example. They came in early on and did a like TikTok of us. And that got us so much traction within Tempe and it's so many ways in which the city has just helped us along the way, helped us get off off the ground, get out, get on our feet, start running, has been really, really instrumental in getting us to where we're at.

00;27;02;28 - 00;27;22;02

Gabe

But I will say, like there's other businesses that I know of that like are starting out and they aren't finding that same connection. And what I find the difference is, is I'm not quiet. So like, I'm sitting here like, oh, Tempe Tourism, I'm DMing them like, hey, we're a new coffee shop, you have a coffee shop page on your website.

00;27;22;02 - 00;27;40;07

Gabe

Can we be on it? Like I'm not afraid to ask because worse the can do is say no. And it's that type of "put yourself out there" that I think has really helped us take off and mixed with a little bit, I mean, I have a corporate career, so I'm used to corporate politics. I know how to play the corporate games.

00;27;40;17 - 00;28;04;03

Gabe

So I think being able to combine a new business, a small business, with some of the infrastructure that I'm used to at a corporation, has allowed me to be able to put together presentations that are like, Hey, this is why you should care about us. And that gets us more traction that people take us a little bit more seriously when we, you know, just kind of show them that we aren't just a fly by night coffee shop.

00;28;04;16 - 00;28;26;18

Jesse

Yeah, I agree. I think the network is there and the support is there. And yes, you have to ask for the help. Tempe Chamber has been great. The Greater Equality Chamber has been amazing. We've gotten so many of our business partners from chamber connections, you know, accountants and lawyers and people that you need when you're in business.

00;28;27;23 - 00;28;34;27

Jesse

And yeah, they all, everybody's rooting for you if you just make the connection, if just reach out and say hello.

00;28;35;10 - 00;28;56;02

Gabe

And you just have to tell your story. That's one thing that we found very quickly was solidifying what our story was: how did Brick Road come to be? What do we, what's our mission? What's our purpose? And once we found that sweet spot of the queer community needing that space, like, it became very easy to tell our story because we so passionately believe in what we're doing.

00;28;57;09 - 00;29;16;28

Gabe

It's easy to kind of go out and say, This is why you should care about us and this is why you should care about the issues that matter to our community. And hey, did you ever think about how this impacts our community? And even though I'm not necessarily doing a ton of stuff, I've gotten other businesses to implement some things that make it a little bit easier for a community outside of brick road's walls.

00;29;16;28 - 00;29;41;15

Gabe

And so that's a mission that I've been trying to do, partnering with the Tempe Chamber, trying to get them more well integrated with the Greater Phoenix Equality Chamber, which is an affinity chamber that definitely champions our community, and then also partnering them with One Community Arizona, with Angela Hughey's organization. And just like getting those partnerships is a big thing on my bucket list to do.

00;29;41;15 - 00;30;09;04

Gabe

And that includes the Tempe Chamber, that includes the city of Tempe, the government officials. So beyond just selling coffee, I'm trying to really have the communities that we're a part of become leaders in the queer community. And in showing that that all doors are open to us, I really want that more than anything. Like I want, I want, I want there to be a strong community that stands behind us now more than ever.

00;30;09;04 - 00;30;11;20

Gabe

Like I feel like that's needed.

00;30;11;20 - 00;30;38;11

Jeanne

You say "now more than ever." I think you were saying it's just a lot of it's about saying yes when you're building community. But there are some really concerning things happening around the country right now at community spaces that host LGBT events. Even if it's something like a book club, sometimes that's something that gets targeted. Are there difficult decisions you've had to make?

00;30;38;11 - 00;30;41;07

Jeanne

Are there things you've had to say no to?

00;30;41;07 - 00;31;11;28

Jesse

I think we've so far have said yes with some trepidation in some instances and taking some additional steps to make sure that we're as safe as we can be. So I don't know that we've been asked to host anything that was so controversial or concerning that we've said no, but it is something we're aware of. I mean, you do have to think about those things.

00;31;12;07 - 00;31;34;17

Jesse

Who's going to show up? What kind of chatter is out there? Who's talking about us? For sure. I think that, you know, we're transparent with our employees. If we, if we have a concern and, you know, maybe we lose a little sleep. Occasionally. But yeah, no, nothing stopping us yet.

00;31;34;29 - 00;31;35;14

Jeanne

That's great.

00;31;35;24 - 00;32;02;02

Gabe

I think that's the biggest thing is we've we had one instance in Pride Month when a lot of things were being targeted and luckily the event went off without hesitation. But it was a lot on like us actually dealing with that situation and making sure everything went off well and having to deal with the whole situation that like the next month when that same event came around, it was very like, do we still do this?

00;32;02;18 - 00;32;27;08

Gabe

Do we still want to be targets on Telegram or wherever the right wing chatter is at the moment? And so we, that was the hardest one was to continue with that second month, and we did it. There were no issues. And it reminded me that, yes. That's letting them win. If we shut that down, if we stop doing drag story hours or stop doing different events because they targeted us and they won.

00;32;27;28 - 00;32;53;08

Gabe

And so it's some sleepless nights for sure, but it's just forcing us to kind of think of different ways to approach the event, make sure that there's the right partners involved. Free Mom Hugs has been fantastic, like it's just, the community rallies to help support to make sure that we can create these spaces.

00;32;53;08 - 00;33;07;02

Jeanne

I also just wanted to ask about some of the things that you have said yes to. You've got a lot of different programing happening at Brick Road and I was hoping just for the podcast listeners, that maybe you could share some of the stuff you have coming up.

00;33;08;01 - 00;33;39;06

Jesse

Well, we have several recurring events that pretty much happen every month. The biggest and most consistent one is Queerizona or Queer in Arizona, which is a kind of a social nonprofit that was started by two individuals. I think one was in Queen Creek and one was in Surprise or Peoria or something. And really their mission was to make sure that there were more social events for queer people happening outside of central Phoenix.

00;33;39;21 - 00;34;00;20

Jesse

And we were very lucky to connect with them early on in their journey. It was early on in our journey and so we have a Wednesday, a weekly Wednesday queer meet up that is usually 20 to 30 people strong. It kind of takes over. Some of the ASU students give us the stink eye when they're trying to get their finals done.

00;34;00;20 - 00;34;23;29

Jesse

But that's a great one, and one of my favorites always different people, but, you know, some familiar faces at the same time. Tempe Library reached out to us wanting to do a LGBTQ BIPOC book club and the deputy director — do I have the title right?

00;34;24;03 - 00;34;25;01

Gabe

I think so, yeah.

00;34;25;14 - 00;34;37;06

Jesse

Jessica Jupitus — just so amazing at running a book club. I've, I don't know if I've ever heard of a book club that has the attendance that ours does, but that happens once a month.

00;34;37;12 - 00;34;39;21

Gabe

The second Tuesday of every month.

00;34;40;01 - 00;34;43;27

Jeanne

Jessica is wonderful. I've gotten to meet with her a little bit.

00;34;44;06 - 00;34;48;15

Jesse

Yeah, a breath of fresh air. I mean, really. Yeah. I'm so glad they're here.

00;34;48;16 - 00;35;01;05

Gabe

I mean, our book club last night, we had 21 people, and most, if not all, I think at some point participated. It was just a fantastic discussion and it was so much fun. So those are really fun events to join.

00;35;01;08 - 00;35;33;21

Jesse

For sure. And so a quick shout out to Changing Hands in Tempe, which is, you know, a great business. You know, they host a lot of author events and book launches and we've had the pleasure of going to a couple of those. And we're also lucky to have a good writing community building in Brick Road that, you know, writers that meet regularly and you know, there's a lot of really powerful queer authors that are local to Tempe, which is really cool.

00;35;33;21 - 00;35;54;26

Gabe

There's a huge, a huge queer — I mean. Well, Lee Call was in here. So I mean, there's an incredible queer writing community here in Arizona that we had no idea existed. But we've kind of tapped into that network between the authors that write there, the events we've gone to at Changing Hands. Changing hands has even donated several times to that lending library just to keep it stocked and full.

00;35;54;26 - 00;36;00;07

Gabe

And so it's such a beautiful, like ecosystem around books and literature.

00;36;00;14 - 00;36;25;17

Jesse

And so the book club has kind of spawned into, you know, occasionally we'll do a Behind the Curtains local author spotlight. We've had a couple of book launches actually at Brick Road, David Boyles and Lee Call so far and then other events: Dungeons & Dragons. So we have four groups going right now on —

00;36;26;05 - 00;36;27;01

Gabe

Various days.

00;36;27;06 - 00;36;32;24

Jesse

Thursdays, Tuesdays there's a waitlist. Trying to get some more dungeon masters.

00;36;33;16 - 00;36;39;06

Jeanne

Wow! Do either of you play we to play?

Gabe

We do.

Jesse

We both play.

Jeanne

Oh, that's great.

00;36;39;06 - 00;36;44;29

Gabe

Selfishly, a lot of these events that we set up are just things that we want to do, so.

00;36;45;20 - 00;37;00;27

Jesse

But you know, a lot of, a lot of gaymers out there G-A-Y-M-E-R-S, right, it's another great local nonprofit is the Phoenix Gaymers. And so we hope to see them sometimes we've got some chess groups coming.

00;37;02;00 - 00;37;09;29

Gabe

And then we try to do once a month drag story hour. So actually the 24th, Saturday the 24th. Do you remember the time?

00;37;10;09 - 00;37;10;28

Jesse

I don't have it yet.

00;37;11;01 - 00;37;30;23

Gabe

I don't have the time yet, but I think it's in the morning. We're doing another drag story hour event, so we try to do that once a month where we'll have like either a kids or a young adult drag story hour. Sometimes we make some trivia with it. We just want to create those events for the community. And then in October.

00;37;31;02 - 00;37;32;07

Jesse

Yeah we can tease.

00;37;32;07 - 00;37;44;25

Gabe

And then in October, we are currently planning I think for the 29th a potential trunk-or-treat event, trying to create an inclusive, safe space.

Jesse

We've got some special partners.

00;37;44;26 - 00;37;47;11

Jeanne

That's a good tease.

00;37;47;11 - 00;37;54;19

Jesse

Also, at the end of October, we plan on hosting a lot of NaNoWriMo events again with the writing community.

00;37;54;19 - 00;37;55;04

Jeanne

Oh, yeah.

00;37;55;20 - 00;38;16;18

Jesse

National Novel Writing Month. So end of October, going into the first day of November, we plant to have kind of a a launch party, if you would, you know, or get started on your novel. Not really a party, but sit down and write, get to work kind of thing. What else. I think we have we have some really cool partnerships with —

00;38;16;18 - 00;38;20;11

Jesse

Gabe, you mentioned Southwest Center for HIV and AIDS and.

00;38;20;16 - 00;38;21;01

Gabe

Spectrum.

00;38;21;01 - 00;38;22;00

Jesse

Spectrum Medical.

00;38;22;21 - 00;38;42;14

Gabe

Both of them come and do pretty regular onsite HIV testing for free, just getting people access to that type of testing. We're also working with them to try to build out some more spaces, to do additional access. But that's still in development because there's, you know, medical, there's requirements. So a lot.

00;38;42;14 - 00;38;43;07

Jeanne

There's a lot of extra steps there.

00;38;43;20 - 00;38;52;01

Gabe

Like we have to make sure we have the right space. But right now we can do the testing and we can get connected to those resources. So we try to have that on a pretty regular basis.

00;38;53;26 - 00;39;05;06

Jeanne

I know that Southwest Center has been really involved in some of the MPV response work. Is that something that there's been any demand for around your location?

00;39;05;06 - 00;39;26;06

Gabe

Not yet. I talked with them last time they were there and they were just getting the ability to host at their site to do that. So I know, I've been, I've been meaning to connect with them again to see about doing an annex out on the east valley. So, yeah, something I've been mindful of trying to create another access point.

00;39;26;13 - 00;39;26;25

Jesse

Yeah. Yeah.

00;39;26;27 - 00;39;55;22

Jesse

So we're, we're always trying to gather resources and information and keep them. You know, we have, we have the traditional community board kind of place where you can put your violin lessons or tutoring or whatever. But most of the stuff back there is, is really resource driven, you know, all sorts of things from, you know, drug and alcohol rehabilitation, sexual health, that sort of thing, so.

00;39;55;22 - 00;40;13;07

Gabe

Yeah, the events we, we were doing a lot more during the summer. We had like a movie night, and we'll plan to bring some of those back over the summer. With ASU back in session our nights get filled back up with students.

Jeanne

Oh, right

Gabe

We dial some of those events back or at least pause them until breaks and stuff like that.

00;40;13;07 - 00;40;32;18

Jesse

We are still a fairly small space, right? So, we have so many tables. And when Queerizona pops in, and I said, you know, 30 people, most of the tables disappear and, but you know, I think people develop habits. They, they get used to the —

Gabe

The routine.

Jesse

To the routine. Yeah.

00;40;32;18 - 00;40;39;09

Jeanne

I think students are good at learning what the best coffee shop is for them on any given night.

Jesse

Right.

00;40;39;24 - 00;40;46;19

Gabe

Yeah. And that's, that's very important for us to have those spaces for our community to gather and be safe and have fun.

00;40;47;07 - 00;41;00;24

Jesse

So it's a good time to plug on our website there is a form where you can submit an event request or you know, suggest an event. So if there's anybody out there looking for a space to do something, then you can just submit that.

00;41;01;14 - 00;41;04;12

Jeanne

That's great. I'll add a link to that to the show notes.

00;41;04;12 - 00;41;06;27

Jesse

Or you can usually find Gabe or I at the coffee shop.

00;41;07;12 - 00;41;12;04

Gabe

Yeah, or email Brick Road at Gmail. [email protected].

00;41;12;04 - 00;41;34;25

Jeanne

Perfect. Well, when you mentioned the whole community of authors in Tempe, it's not something I had been really familiar with before either. And it seemed like a real moment of discovery for you. You moved initially to Laveen. Now you're in Tempe, I think. Not just at Brick Road, but in your time in Arizona. what are some of the great discoveries that you've made?

00;41;35;21 - 00;42;00;16

Jesse

There's plenty of culture in Arizona. I think we're both big fans of the theater. And, you know, there are a lot of theaters in the Phoenix area and a lot of talent. I don't know, you know, I maybe I'm surprised that the discovery is that I actually love Arizona, I love the Phoenix area. You know, spent a year or two saying when are we going to.

00;42;00;16 - 00;42;09;10

Jesse

Move back to San Diego, but that was a long time ago. And now I really — we might visit, but I have no desire to move anywhere.

00;42;09;25 - 00;42;36;16

Gabe

I think I just love all of the outdoor spaces that we have here and like what we're able to do, whether it be Tempe Town, Lake, Papago Park, Kiwanis, there's just always something to do and see. And there seems to be a pretty good mix of events that are put on that provide different access to culture and that's always really fun to see and really exciting to participate in, so.

00;42;36;16 - 00;42;42;01

Jeanne

That's great. Well, thanks for talking with me today for the podcast.

00;42;42;22 - 00;42;43;07

Gabe

Thank you.

00;42;44;21 - 00;43;05;01

Jeanne

Thanks again to Jesse and Gabe for being my guests on the podcast this week. I'm sure I'll see them again soon at Brick Road. And if I'm ever in Tempe, well, that's where you'll find me. All right. I had to make at least one Wizard of Oz reference. If you haven't given up listening yet, maybe consider leaving a rating or a review on Apple Podcasts.

00;43;05;05 - 00;43;21;04

Jeanne

It really helps out the show. And if you'd like to be a guest on a future episode of the podcast, just visit EqualityArizona.org/Stories to sign up. Thanks for listening and don't forget to tune in again next week.

The Arizona Equals Conversation is a storytelling project featuring interviews with LGBTQ+ people living in Arizona. On today’s episode, listen to a conversation with Ralph Roberts about his experiences coming out during the AIDS crisis, being among the first gay couples to be married in Massachusetts, and working in ministry as an openly gay man.

Additional context for the conversation

* Ralph’s Marriage Equality Story in the New York Times

* Gay & Lesbian Switchboard

* The Hetrick-Martin Institute

* AZT (HIV/AIDS treatment)

* Project 10

* Westside Community Board of Education v. Mergens

* Dykes to Watch Out For

* Paris is Burning

* Leslie Feinberg (Stone Butch Blues)

* Leslie Feinberg (Beyond Pink or Blue)

* Allen Ginsberg

* Day-care sex-abuse hysteria

* Section 28 (British Law)

Full Transcript

00;00;00;04 - 00;00;25;06

Ralph

I'm Ralph Roberts. I was in ministry with young people and as a Unitarian Universalist minister and for years and am a happy would be artist out here in Arizona who really, really cares about gay rights and queer rights and queer young people, and there's so much I want to say.

00;00;26;04 - 00;00;28;18

Jeanne

Thank you so much.

00;00;31;13 - 00;01;01;03

Jeanne

Thanks for listening to this week's episode of The Arizona Equals Conversation. I'm Jeanne Woodbury. I'm the policy and communications director for Equality Arizona, and the host of this podcast. Arizona Equals is a storytelling podcast featuring weekly conversational interviews with LGBTQ+ people living in Arizona. If you'd like to listen to past episodes, or sign up to be a guest on a future episode of the show, you can visit equalityarizona.org/stories.

00;01;02;08 - 00;01;33;09

Jeanne

Today's guest, Ralph, signed up to be a guest on the podcast through the form on that page, and I'm really glad that he did. Ralph was present for some really important moments in queer history and is probably the first person I've ever talked to who could share a personal story about Allen Ginsberg. Ralph also has decades of experience working in church ministries, and I felt that the combination of those experiences gave him a really unique and valuable perspective on the history of the gay rights movement and some of the ways he feels that it's failed.

00;01;34;12 - 00;01;58;03

Jeanne

We get into some pretty contentious topics, but everything's said here is grounded in real experience and real emotion and real empathy. I think it'll be best just to let the conversation speak for itself. So let's get the episode started.

00;01;58;03 - 00;02;21;26

Ralph

And I was, I got teary cause, you know, I hadn't realized that he was out to some people while he was in high school, too, and I was just like, Bryan, it's like, don't you feel like it's wasted? It's like, wasted? He's like, we were surviving, he said. And I said, I know, but I could have just come out. And he was like, you were my lifeline.

00;02;22;04 - 00;02;34;22

Ralph

You came out right after college. I was thrown out of my house. You found me, like friends. It was this really heart healing moment.

00;02;34;23 - 00;02;40;01

Jeanne

Yeah, absolutely. I — that's such a a moment.

00;02;40;06 - 00;03;04;18

Ralph

Yeah, there were, there was a group of us in high school and we never kind of knew it. We never acknowledged it. And, you know, I look at us now; Bryan, the one I mentioned, he and I both adopted. He adopted three kids. We both did it through the state. And he's done community theater. I've been, I've done ministry and education, work with kids and stuff.

00;03;04;18 - 00;03;13;24

Ralph

And then we have another friend who is the, well, a doctor's spouse. He went to school to be a doctor, but came out a doctor's spouse.

00;03;13;28 - 00;03;14;08

Jeanne

Oh, yeah.

00;03;15;14 - 00;03;31;26

Ralph

But he is, you know, they adopted the kid. And then there's our friend Chris, who was always a little scary. He was on the debate club and stuff, but Chris got liberal-ed up and he's done all this stuff on environmental stuff and.

00;03;32;07 - 00;03;34;18

Jeanne

Oh wow, like professionally? Oh, that's cool.

00;03;34;19 - 00;03;49;07

Ralph

Yeah. And did a lot of advocacy work on that. He had a rough time of it. His parents were not too cool with things. And he he went to I don't know, he just, you know, he had a harder time in some ways.

00;03;50;04 - 00;03;53;11

Jeanne

But you're all still able to be in touch after all these years?.

00;03;53;20 - 00;03;58;16

Ralph

Yeah, yeah. Not a lot. But we could easily at any point, you know.

00;03;58;18 - 00;03;59;25

Jeanne

That's really nice.

00;04;01;12 - 00;04;06;24

Ralph

And then there was female friends in our group who, you know, we're still in touch with too.

00;04;07;02 - 00;04;07;24

Jeanne

Oh, that's really cool.

00;04;09;14 - 00;04;10;27

Ralph

Yeah, it was, it was really neat.

00;04;11;10 - 00;04;23;29

Jeanne

I think it's interesting to look back on some of those moments where it's like, Yeah, we had these things in common that we didn't even necessarily know or acknowledge to each other or to ourselves. And then years later, it's like, Oh, well, of course.

00;04;24;16 - 00;04;50;14

Ralph

I, I have I hate to — I wanted to be out. I wanted something I would — when I was growing up, I called the Gay and Lesbian switchboard like weekly for, like, do you have a youth group yet? Do you have something? My parents even were considering like, do we send them to Hetrick-Martin? Like, you know, we didn't know much about it, but they were like, you know. The same thing when I was diagnosed with dyslexia.

00;04;50;14 - 00;04;53;24

Ralph

But I wasn't up to boarding school. That wasn't going to work for me.

00;04;53;27 - 00;04;55;00

Jeanne

That would be a big change.

00;04;55;19 - 00;05;22;12

Ralph

But, um, but it finally got to the point, because I came out to my parents at 14, And this is like mid-AIDS crisis, pre-AZT. And so not a lot of folks were doing that at my age. And, um, but there was just nothing. There was nothing. We lived two blocks from a metropolitan community church, who knew. And I went in and I thought, Well, this will be something.

00;05;23;10 - 00;05;43;29

Ralph

She was terrified. The minister looked like I was like, a disease or something when I came in. She was just so terrified that — well, as it eventually came out, they had been firebombed. There had been a lesbian bookstore that was firebombed in our city.

Jeanne

Oh, God.

Ralph

Just before that. And they'd gotten lots of death threats and, cause I mean, I kept saying, you know, I could come.

00;05;43;29 - 00;06;02;06

Ralph

And she's like, no, your parents wouldn't want you to do that. And said, Oh, no, they can come with me maybe. And she was like, Well, you know, there's people who are dying of AIDS and they look at and there's, you know, transvestites, the language of the day.

Jeanne

Yeah.

Ralph

And, you know, I really don't think, you know, that you're gonna want that.

00;06;02;06 - 00;06;22;23

Ralph

And then she was finally like, look, we can't have a 14 year old kid coming in here. The wrong person hears about that. And those firebombs are going to turn from threats to reality.

Jeanne

Yeah.

Ralph

And my church had a gay group, so I went to — the conference, not my church, but the denomination.

00;06;23;01 - 00;06;23;13

Jeanne

Right.

00;06;24;01 - 00;06;44;22

Ralph

And so I was excited. I thought, well, maybe this. I got to the door of the meeting after following the labyrinth-like directions for how to get there, cause it was so hidden.

Jeanne

Yeah.

Ralph

And then I go down this dark hallway and somebody rushes out before I could even see who's in the room to, you know, walk me back to the youth programing.

00;06;44;22 - 00;06;48;10

Ralph

And I'm like, my minister knows, could I come, you know.

00;06;48;29 - 00;06;49;12

Jeanne

Oh, gosh.

00;06;50;00 - 00;07;17;06

Ralph

No. So it wasn't till when I was in college though. They had just started a, in 93. So it was my second half of my first year and they'd started a gay, lesbian, bisexual group for youth and young adults, the first of its kind in the area. And so finally, there was something, you know. I did college at a religious school, actually.

00;07;17;20 - 00;07;38;13

Ralph

When you have open minded parents you have to rebel somehow. And also when you can't find any outlet to be yourself and then you have the Young People for Christ and stuff ready to show you all this affection and touch you and hug you and, you know, so. But I, it just took a week at the Christian College to make me,

00;07;39;10 - 00;07;58;07

Ralph

Okay, I'm back. I'm, I'm on board now. Much to my parent's relief, but um. Yeah, I went to Harvard Divinity School.

Jeanne

Okay.

Ralph

That's what took me to Massachusetts though, when I first was encouraged to apply I was like, Oh, I can't go to England. I thought Harvard was in England. I didn't know.

00;07;58;07 - 00;08;21;05

Jeanne

So, listening to these different places, you've looked to find like support groups and things like that. A lot of them are churches or religious colleges. And I'm curious like, I think, you know, my perception thinking about churches during the AIDS crisis is not that they would be a place to find support groups, but it seems like they did exist and were actually one of the safe places to look.

00;08;21;08 - 00;08;49;18

Ralph

Yeah, a lot of times they were. I think it's, it's like. For me, I got the learning that I needed to be gay from those groups. Like I learned to be on the unpopular side of things and stand with it.

Jeanne

Yeah.

Ralph

I learned to make my values something different from what everybody else's values were, and feel affirmed in the fact that it's not what everybody wants.

00;08;50;28 - 00;09;06;27

Ralph

So I learned so much psychic survival, I think from, that those groups. And faith was always important to me. So that's part of it. But part of it is that churches were where groups would meet. I mean, it may not have been a religious group, but you were going to meet the basement of a church.

00;09;06;28 - 00;09;07;10

Jeanne

Oh, right yeah.

00;09;08;18 - 00;09;33;17

Ralph

So yeah, in college when we would go to that, we had the youth group meeting that met at Planned Parenthood. But the other thing was Sundays because the Harrisburg church was there and they would do — the UU church — they would have something for, where they'd show a gay movie. So something to do, you know. And you, these little old ladies who were just so excited they got like an actual homosexual to their meeting. And, or you'd go into — the cool church was my church in Lancaster.

00;09;33;28 - 00;10;05;07

Ralph

And there we could actually take classes and stuff or, you know, I picked up a couple of dates, you know, sometimes. Or the other one was Dickinson College. They were involved in a lot in that area and they, they like sponsored dances and stuff. Which, having been involved in gay youth programing now over the years and seen like multiple generations and stuff, it's one of the things that gets so missed is we've, we just missed the boat on — they're looking for, for opportunities to date.

00;10;05;07 - 00;10;35;27

Ralph

They're looking for opportunities to connect socially and for those sorts of things. The political activism is great. The, you know, all of this is great. And having some of the groups do a lot as far as, you know, dire situations like homelessness and stuff. But if we're going to master or conquer or just get it; crack open, some sense of how do we provide something, develop mentally equivalent, developmentally equal?

00;10;36;07 - 00;10;36;19

Jeanne

Yeah.

00;10;37;18 - 00;10;40;01

Ralph

We've got to figure out stuff better.

00;10;40;20 - 00;10;50;27

Jeanne

Right, like just how are we as queer people able to get that same kind of socialization and community?

00;10;50;27 - 00;11;10;05

Ralph

Yeah it's um. When I went to Massachusetts though, one of the first things, I worked at a preschool one summer. But then when I was a student I got an internship and it was the assistant to the director of Project 10 East, which is, I don't know if you're familiar with Project 10.

00;11;10;06 - 00;11;10;21

Jeanne

I'm not.

00;11;11;02 - 00;12;01;06

Ralph

Project 10 West in L.A., that was the original, was one of the first gay youth anythings. And then not long after that Frank started Project 10 East. In that time, Gay-Straight Alliances had started in Massachusetts and so on. But, so it was one of the first Gay-Straight Alliances. But more than that, it followed this Project 10 model which was markedly different in that he was staff with the school and he ran the group, whereas the Gay-Straight Alliances, I like to joke that my first experience with gay youth work was as the founder and president of my high school's Bible Club, because it's the Supreme Court case that allowed for the Bible clubs

00;12;01;06 - 00;12;32;28

Ralph

That provides your legal framework for what justifies the Gay-Straight Alliances, and that includes: it's got to be youth led. It's got to be youth led. It's got to be youth led. So over the years, they've done different things to get around that, too, you know? So you go over in the summer and the queer studies and women's studies faculty and students and stuff, they're going to, you know, give you all this training and basically, you know, give you a script book for what to follow and stuff and then send you back and hope that it goes well.

00;12;33;03 - 00;12;33;13

Jeanne

Right.

00;12;33;24 - 00;12;49;14

Ralph

And then you're going to be working with an advisor who's terrified to do anything or say anything because that could end it and that could end their career too, you know. So it's like if you've got a gay advisor, you're screwed because they're terrified. If you've got a straight advisor, they don't know what they're doing.

00;12;50;18 - 00;12;51;17

Jeanne

So they're also terrified.

00;12;51;17 - 00;13;19;11

Ralph

So they're also terrified. And so, whereas with Project 10, we had the ability to set out a curriculum and think about a curriculum. Like what, what does somebody new in the group need to go through to participate in the group? Because we had to do fundraising stuff. We also had things that bridged in with the communities like one of my jobs was just to like help the adult volunteers who come in to work and make sure the numbers or anything or no touching happens with the kids.

00;13;20;01 - 00;13;43;03

Ralph

You know, and that was my job. So, like, it was usually — there was this one kid, it was like, you make sure he goes home on his own. Um, but similarly with the youth group that I was in, the one that started up in Harrisburg, they had a staff person from the state offices and stuff, and it was paid for by the Gay and Lesbian Switchboard, but also by the Department of Health.

00;13;43;17 - 00;13;55;04

Ralph

So we did things like, you know, there was youth empowerment, but we helped set up the curriculum. You know, we helped set up and think about at what point to expand to younger people. What was that going to look like?

00;13;55;04 - 00;14;01;16

Jeanne

When was this that you were first getting into that

Ralph

'93.

Jeanne

Okay. So while you were in college.

00;14;01;22 - 00;14;05;24

Ralph

Yeah, I started in 92.

00;14;06;12 - 00;14;08;23

Jeanne

Okay. Yeah. And then which state is this in?

00;14;09;03 - 00;14;09;29

Ralph

That's in Pennsylvania.

00;14;09;29 - 00;14;14;28

Jeanne

In Pennsylvania. Okay. Yeah. I was like, I know all these city names. My family's from Pennsylvania.

00;14;15;12 - 00;14;50;17

Ralph

Okay, all right. Yeah, I'm from Lancaster originally. And I had also at that time experienced some of the other kinds of groups, which were probably more like, our, one-n-ten here. Which was like D.C. had a group that had just started and we went down there one time. They were very angular. They, they were very harsh and angular, their clothing, their hairdos, their studs on their jackets. It was my first encounter with Doc Martins.

00;14;50;27 - 00;15;17;17

Ralph

Um, they just seemed very angular. But they were dealing with being on the street and things like that, that we weren't. We went down there because Eastern Mennonite College, another, had a, an out lesbian who was in charge of their satellite program in D.C. And so we stayed at this one dorm that she was in charge of. And there were some other gay kids who would come down on the weekend from Eastern Mennonite.

00;15;17;17 - 00;15;45;05

Ralph

It was like the thing for religious schools. And so we went to the meeting and we went to a dance and all this stuff and came home that first night and my friend was like, all happy and stuff and said, Ralph you weren't really happy. But I didn't know the music. I didn't know what to say. The kids were all very snarky, I didn't use that language then, but they kept saying things that I didn't understand what they meant.

00;15;45;20 - 00;15;52;02

Ralph

And she said, I got something for you. And then she comes back and she has a stack of Dykes to Watch out For comics.

00;15;52;07 - 00;15;54;00

Jeanne

Oh, my God. I love those now.

00;15;54;11 - 00;16;22;27

Ralph

And a cassette tape. And it's a pirated copy of Paris is Burning. And she's like, you have a quiz tomorrow morning and then tomorrow evening I'm sending you someplace on your own. And so I got quizzed on like, what's shade mean? What's, what's, what's tea, you know. Yeah. And then she sent me to Lambda Rising Bookstore on my own where Leslie Feinberg was reading from, I think it was.

00;16;22;27 - 00;16;27;21

Ralph

She was supposed to be there for Transgender Warriors, but she read from Stone Butch Blues.

00;16;28;00 - 00;16;28;11

Jeanne

Also amazing.

00;16;28;11 - 00;16;42;15

Ralph

Yeah. And I got to go over to Pop Stop for coffee afterwards with her, of course all I cared about was the boys, which is what she noticed. She was just like, Oh, look at him, look at him. He's just so happy. And I touched Allen Ginsberg once.

00;16;43;05 - 00;16;43;28

Jeanne

Oh, that's fun.

00;16;44;10 - 00;16;44;25

Ralph

I just I.

00;16;44;28 - 00;16;45;23

Jeanne

How did that happen?

00;16;46;10 - 00;17;03;20

Ralph

He was talking, and he was reading Howl, and it was in Philly when I was in school there. And afterwards I'm going up and I wanted to say something to him, and I had no idea what to say, so I just like put my hand on him and he's talking to all these people and he finally like looks at me and it was like, I didn't know what to ask.

00;17;03;20 - 00;17;13;10

Ralph

And I thought, well, I can at least say I touched Allen Ginsberg. He's like, Oh, honey, if I were younger, you coulda done more than that.

00;17;13;10 - 00;17;17;20

Jeanne

Oh that's a perfect story. There's nothing you could have said that would have been better.

00;17;17;20 - 00;17;20;17

Ralph

Oh, I know. So it's like, it was a great.

00;17;21;01 - 00;17;22;01

Jeanne

That's fantastic.

00;17;22;13 - 00;17;48;10

Ralph

I should, I should also mention with that whole part of life. So we had this campus in Philly like the eastern Mennonites had the — my school, Messiah, had a campus in Philly and we all lived there sort of communally and we had our own chaplain. So there was a queer theology conference at University of Pennsylvania, and I got a bus of students and we went to the Queer Theology Conference.

00;17;49;02 - 00;18;40;11

Ralph

The chaplain went and we ran into somebody, D who Corinthia who was our our chaplain knew and had actually dated as a young person before D was D. And so it was, I think, a first, you know, trans experience for a lot of the folks. D ended up coming and sharing worship service with us and leading a giving a testimony, not about trans experience, but but still, I mean, it was just this really amazing thing. That chaplain went on to become a… go on the board of Eastern Mennonite and Eastern College, both in Pennsylvania, which are the two schools within the Christian College Consortium that went full board,

00;18;40;11 - 00;18;59;14

Ralph

We're going to give benefits to same sex partners, including religious studies faculty. They're going to be included in the affirmative-action-esque policies. In terms of preferencing marginalized and historically oppressed communities. And she was part of those votes.

00;18;59;14 - 00;19;15;12

Jeanne

I imagine that going from that kind of communal Pennsylvania experience, Mennonites, even though that's not your college and then going to Harvard, it's got to be a pretty big shift in a lot of ways. What changed?

00;19;17;11 - 00;19;44;14

Ralph

Yeah, it was a big shift. Though, I focused on the UU stuff a lot. Though I think I, I think I brought a lot of my sensibilities into it. Like I introduced a lot of communion services and things like that that they weren't doing before then. And it was, it's just bigger. It's just a lot bigger.

Jeanne

Right.

Ralph

So there's, it almost became sort of un-noteworthy at times, the being gay thing — at times.

00;19;44;14 - 00;20;10;05

Ralph

But, you know, it it's still a big deal. But you know, my experience when I moved out here versus there, as far as being in a congregation and feeling at home in my skin and feeling able to relax and not be monitoring myself as far as my sexual identity?

Jeanne

Right.

Ralph

It was worlds better when I came out here.

00;20;11;00 - 00;20;14;07

Jeanne

Oh, really? That's not something I would have expected about Arizona.

00;20;14;08 - 00;20;43;07

Ralph

I wouldn't have either. I was called. I was the first out gay minister called to serve one of the United Church of Christ Churches. I'm UU by training and all, but I grew up UCC and so, so I was called to church there. And so for the Southwest conference; well, they've had out ministers here. Yeah. I was the first one who was out and known to be out when he was called, which is, might be why I didn't last two years but.

00;20;44;06 - 00;21;09;19

Ralph

Or part of it. No, but really, I mean the congregation, they just they knew how to handle that in a matter of fact, but not hyper aware way. If that makes sense.

Jeanne

Oh I see.

Ralph

They could joke about it in ways that, it was nine years in, in my last church before they were up to making a little joke. Like they made

00;21;09;20 - 00;21;09;29

Ralph

the little

00;21;10;13 - 00;21;27;15

Ralph

Universal bathroom sign and. Cause right by, in a remodel it was like the men's room was this way and it was also my office. And so they put a little symbol of a guy in a pink robe because my Harvard's robe is pink and, and it was like men's room and the associate ministers, and that was their little funny.

00;21;27;21 - 00;21;28;00

Ralph

Yeah.

00;21;28;26 - 00;21;30;18

Jeanne

And this was nine years in.

00;21;30;18 - 00;21;41;15

Ralph

Yeah. Nine years in. Whereas you know, they're, you know, I have the old ladies who are like, when I got separated and they're like, you're going to go out and do well, you know.

00;21;41;15 - 00;22;00;05

Ralph

Stuff like that.

Jeanne

I love that. I think there is like a real difference between people who are totally great about it, but then also like maybe a little too cautious. And then people who maybe aren't actually 100% up to date with everything but accept you in a way that's more genuine.

00;22;00;06 - 00;22;42;17

Ralph

Yeah. Yeah. And, and I think we forget how many parts of this country had some version of that for the time. I mean, things were awful, awful for — we underestimate how awful things have been for you just because you're gay or lesbian or, you know, I mean, we vastly underestimate that so often. And within the queer community, we do a lot of evil, cruel treatment of one another that ignores our own trauma history in ways that we wouldn't ever tolerate if it was not somebody on the inside.

00;22;42;21 - 00;22;43;19

Jeanne

Yeah.

Ralph

you know.

00;22;43;19 - 00;22;45;25

Jeanne

And a lot of that is trauma behavior. Yeah.

00;22;46;07 - 00;23;06;02

Ralph

Yeah, yeah. Exactly. No, you're right. Well, we adopted a kid through the state system. And, you know, one of the things they often talk about is don't assume that siblings want to be together or are going to thrive together all the time. Yeah, because if you've been through that trauma and what do you do with that? You know, what do you do with that betrayal of

00;23;06;02 - 00;23;33;04

Ralph

You let this happen to me. And for for queer people that's built into our relationships. That's that's one of the sick, the sickest things. I think that the one of the cruelest things in the world is, you know, you hear from couples, it's like if they were involved in a violent, horrible, you know, home invasion and rape and stuff where it introduces something that the relationship can't heal from because it's that you didn't do.

00;23;33;15 - 00;23;41;23

Ralph

And that's baked into our relationships, especially from when we were young. You know, you learn to not like the other queer acting kids.

00;23;41;23 - 00;23;42;09

Jeanne

That's right, you know, as a self preservation thing

00;23;42;20 - 00;24;06;27

Ralph

Yeah. And treat them badly and and, um, which is, you know, part of the beauty of it is that, you know, the solution to that, the solution to some of that hate is when you first fall in love, you know, if it works out that way for you and, and all of a sudden all you can think about is this person and then start to realize that this person likes a lot of the things you do and acts a lot of the ways you do.

00;24;07;03 - 00;24;31;06

Ralph

And you love it and you love you and you know, and and so when it works, right, that's that's when it works. But so yeah, much more comfortable out here just in general in a lot of a lot of ways. It wasn't like Massachusetts. I had I spoke to a group, this is in 95. By that point UU's were supposed to have our shit together.

00;24;32;18 - 00;24;34;29

Jeanne

Right? That's kind of a known fact about UU's.

00;24;34;29 - 00;24;54;05

Ralph

Right, we did it well. We had gay ministers, thought nothing of it. I saw that in the search process. UU's were way more comfortable in the search process about gay ministers. UCC were like, we have to talk about this, scared. But you do need to talk about it. You know, it's like, well, what seemed like a good thing was they didn't want to talk about it because they were so with it.

00;24;54;24 - 00;25;16;23

Ralph

And I was speaking to this group or I was asked to share my coming out story because it's this tear-jerker coming out story and somebody who was at that church had heard it and she wanted me to do it, but they were planning on, they wanted to talk to parents about if they became a welcoming congregation officially, what might that look like as far as what we do differently in religious education?

00;25;16;23 - 00;25;36;06

Ralph

And so when I actually was talking on that, after doing my coming out story, and saying that as great as my parents were still it was horrible because I was alone and I was isolated. And and what we need to do is we need to not assume kids are straight. We need to assume that our kids might be not straight, not, you know,

00;25;36;18 - 00;25;59;28

Ralph

Whatever. And you would have thought I had just gone and said I was going to go rape their kids or something.

Jeanne

Oh, God.

Ralph

I mean, the vitriol and stuff that came back on me from that, the moderator had to step in and that's where I was like [sighs] now I know, I know that now and I will not forget that.

00;25;59;28 - 00;26;19;06

Ralph

And and it's lasted. I, I have so many things about the direction we've gone just because I think we've ignored so much for the past several years and, and haven't taken a chance to focus on it.

00;26;20;24 - 00;26;24;14

Jeanne

What do you think's been overlooked?

00;26;24;14 - 00;26;57;20

Ralph

I think we, I think we went over, we overextended ourselves on our comfort with gender identity, I think. Not in a way that's, not really comfortable with gender identity, but in the sense of, yeah we''ll include that in the curriculum. Yeah we'll do stories about that, yeah we''ll start to introduce things that, now the way that we're introducing them is metaphysically really quite questionable and not something any trans person I've ever met has articulated as their sense of self.

00;26;57;20 - 00;27;22;19

Jeanne

Well, so I think it's an interesting thing to say because it's like, well, we're not actually that great about it. And then, but we're also rushing headlong into, here's like the most boiled down, 101 version of how gender identity works, that doesn't match up like you're saying with like my experience as a trans person or really anyone that I've talked to, when they really talk about what's happened to me personally.

00;27;22;19 - 00;27;35;12

Ralph

Yeah, it's so rare that I've encountered somebody who's like, I think I was a girl in a boys body, you know?

Jeanne

Right.

Ralph

That's just not something I've, in my experience, happens very much.

00;27;35;12 - 00;27;44;12

Jeanne

You know, I think there are people who say that for sure, but it's also something that someone decided is the story that's going to be acceptable.

00;27;44;12 - 00;27;46;20

Ralph

And it sounds like it works for kids, right?

00;27;46;22 - 00;27;54;09

Jeanne

Yeah. But it's, I don't actually know people who, that's their journey. That's their experience.

00;27;54;09 - 00;27;55;20

Ralph

So now we have people freaking out.

00;27;55;20 - 00;27;56;08

Jeanne

Right.

00;27;56;26 - 00;28;14;28

Ralph

And rightly so, if that's the message you're teaching and if you're, and if you're teaching kids that gender stereotypes mean you're really a girl or you're really a boy, if that, if that's the message and that, because that's, that's what you've heard or that's how you interpret it.

00;28;14;28 - 00;28;26;15

Jeanne

And that's not helpful to trans kids either, because so many trans kids don't conform to any gender stereotypes and it can hold you back from moving into the world the way you need to.

00;28;27;17 - 00;29;01;06

Ralph

And and because it doesn't say the word sex and I, I, I never quite believe how relevant that is, but it's so relevant it doesn't say the word sex and so it slips in and it gets tolerated. And it means that we, we've dealt with an aspect of the experience of queer kids that gives them a path to some sort of relief.

00;29;01;06 - 00;29;16;11

Ralph

Here's a way that I can get relief. Here's a way I can assert myself and not assert myself. You know, like I'm going to — here's me, here's the real me, and it is the real me for like, stitch it, you know, down here Venn diagram. But, you know, most of the arrows I think are going to go right out here.

00;29;16;11 - 00;29;41;26

Ralph

The part, it's not quite me, so it's not going to hurt quite as much as if it hit me right here, if I like, really like, you know, just out there honest. And meanwhile, there are no, like not no but, gay and lesbian people and bisexual people, at least of a certain generation in this conversation at all, because we made a truce.

00;29;42;15 - 00;29;58;06

Ralph

We made a truce early on. We're like, we won't say anything about the kids until 18. If it's in our family, if it's in the workplace, you come and you ask me, do you think my kid might be gay? I'm going to say no. I wouldn't think that. Yeah, of course. Of course. I think your kid might be gay.

00;29;58;13 - 00;30;20;24

Jeanne

So that's that's a question then. You had that experience being a kid and going to places and being told, I don't know that we can really deal with this because of the fear and the very real situation of violence. And I wonder if maybe at least for a moment, people have been able to ease up.

Ralph

Oh, yeah.

00;30;20;24 - 00;30;26;18

Jeanne

And now there's this terrible backlash again, people going into libraries with guns and things like that.

00;30;26;18 - 00;30;46;00

Ralph

Well, it was kind of an easing up and kind of not. Because I think the kids, I think they've had it worse than I had it.

Jeanne

Yeah.

Ralph

Because I had anonymity.

Jeanne

Right.

Ralph

And I had certain kind of polite expectations about you don't you know, if somebody is nice person, you don't say you think they're going to be homosexual, you just don't do that.

00;30;46;00 - 00;31;02;19

Ralph

You know, you don't think you don't say I think you're going to grow up and be a cross-dresser. You know, you just because you like to wear girls' clothing, you wouldn't do that. You know, you focus on, that's going to make him a better father because he was going to be more in touch with his nurturing side or he's going to be more empathetic with his wife

00;31;02;22 - 00;31;29;23

Ralph

That's how you, you know. 1970s were hip with things, That's the way you do it. And there's ways in which, if we're not okay with this stuff. It's a better way. It's a better way, because it at least gives these kids something. If you're not going to give them actual people like themselves that they can talk to or guarantees that you do not have to suffer through certain kinds of treatment and degradation.

00;31;30;03 - 00;31;33;28

Ralph

And we're going to make sure you know what that looks like and where you can go.

00;31;34;12 - 00;31;52;06

Jeanne

I think it's really hard to look at that, you know, from our own perspective, here's the different things we had to suffer and what would we want?

Ralph

Yeah,

Jeanne

What's the best thing a kid can have? Is it this kind of partial life or this kind of partial life? I don't even know what the perfect situation would be

00;31;52;06 - 00;32;21;09

Ralph

Yeah. I wouldn't want to contrive a situation where we keep them in the dark. Certainly.

Jeanne

Right.

Ralph

But I do know that the gay rights movement in general let our kids down because we, we pursued the things that we could for adults. We told the press not to take pictures of the kids at the parades, but we were, we were afraid to support them until they were eighteen.

00;32;21;11 - 00;32;52;08

Ralph

You know, the it gets better thing embodies it. It's because it's, just wait, just wait. The threshold right here. And at this point, I can talk to you and I will not have violated — because that's what's keeping the evangelicals from calling me a pedophile and that's what's keeping me from going to jail and, you know, all sorts of things, is that I haven't talked to you until you're 18 years old, so I just need you to get over that line.

00;32;52;17 - 00;33;10;00

Ralph

Just get over that line, and we are here and waiting. Horrible. Because meanwhile, Will and Grace is on and kids are like, I know how to spot a homosexual now, you know? And yeah, you can, you're like ducks in water, in a barrel there. And I saw it with these kids when, when I would work with them.

00;33;10;00 - 00;33;38;27

Ralph

And for me, that's where a lot of the novel taxonomies came out. I mean, there were, there were trans kids. And that was a broad sort of broad category that had to do with gender expression and things like that. And, and, but then you would have yeah, we had pansexual, omnisexual was one of the things. I remember running into asexual.

00;33;38;27 - 00;33;57;26

Ralph

They didn't, I don't remember the demi- and alloromantic. But I remember these things and then I also remember, and bisexual of course. And then the kids would you know, "I really I really only like guys, but, you know, I, that's what I see in the group," you know, and it's like, you know, they could they could just as well be trying to do the same thing with me that they're saying that they're doing with them.

00;33;57;29 - 00;33;58;21

Jeanne

Exactly.

00;33;58;21 - 00;34;20;12

Ralph

And that's that's a whole. But regardless of what directions it's happening, these kids are scrambling, you know, scrambling in this environment where people know, like, I could go to an evangelical group and nobody's going to say about me being gay, like I'm in charge of my identity. And now people think they can can say something.

00;34;20;24 - 00;34;41;23

Jeanne

I think that's the real key of what you've been saying, is, who's in charge of our identities and who feels like they can say something, you know, whether they're saying the thing that's technically correct or not. If they feel like they can say it because they have some kind of ownership over your identity, there's a problem in that, I think.

00;34;41;23 - 00;34;56;03

Ralph

Yeah.

Jeanne

But I'm really curious; you were saying that you think the gay rights movement has failed us in some big way, and you've been at some really pivotal moments. I think you mentioned meeting with Lesley Feinberg.

00;34;56;22 - 00;35;09;27

Ralph

And I know hir cousin who's a UU minister. And then, of course. Oh, who's the other? Oh, my God. Pink and blue. Beyond pink and blue. What is her name?

00;35;09;28 - 00;35;11;10

Jeanne

Oh, yeah, I know what you're talking about.

00;35;11;28 - 00;35;13;01

Ralph

She's a hoot and a half.

00;35;13;15 - 00;35;14;08

Jeanne

Yeah, just.

00;35;14;08 - 00;35;16;22

Ralph

Just marvelous to be around.

00;35;16;22 - 00;35;18;23

Jeanne

I'll put the. I'll look it up and put it in the show notes.

00;35;18;26 - 00;35;19;06

Ralph

Yeah.

00;35;19;13 - 00;35;29;04

Jeanne

But you mentioned being at that moment and before we were recording, you told me that you were in the New York Times when —

Ralph

Right.

Jeanne

Yeah. So tell me a little bit about that story.

00;35;29;08 - 00;35;51;26

Ralph

Well, when Massachusetts made it legal, I mean, the Supreme Court set a date and then that was the date at which the legislature had so much time to come up with a bill to make it illegal or to get it into the Constitution that it was illegal and they didn't do it. So we got to that, that moment.

00;35;51;26 - 00;36;18;22

Ralph

And that's when at midnight, it was just three places in the state. They opened it up. It was Cambridge City Hall and somewhere middle of the state. And then Provincetown. And so we were number 200 something, my partner and I at the time. It was amazing energy. Our son was already placed with us at that point and we had already had a commitment ceremony and done the domestic partner thing.

00;36;18;28 - 00;36;35;24

Ralph

But now we were, so three days after that then we could get legally married. So we were, we were number 200 of all the marriages, you know, so something like that. And they did an interview on us because soon after that I made the decision to accept the call to the church here.

00;36;37;05 - 00;36;39;28

Jeanne

So very shortly after that, you came here to Arizona?

00;36;39;28 - 00;37;00;08

Ralph

Right, and so they were they did a piece in the paper about what's, what's it going to be like going out to, you know, for these people who are going to be married but in another state and what is but it ended up being like is it was crazy negotiating things with schools and stuff. Arizona, I think it's also particular to Arizona.

00;37;00;08 - 00;37;19;12

Ralph

I think other couples face this too, not just gay couples, but they have a way of dealing with either a mom and dad or one parent. Those are the two things they can deal with. Anything else like step, you know, like two moms one dad. They don't know what to do with that as far as release of information or anything like that.

00;37;19;20 - 00;37;34;02

Ralph

And so it was a constant nightmare, especially since we're gay. Loosey-goosey sort of, you know, very fluid, rotating job expectations in the family, you know, so.

00;37;35;10 - 00;37;57;19

Jeanne

So just looking at that trajectory, like coming out before AZT even, meeting and knowing people in that orbit around people kind of creating new language of like transgender as this big umbrella and then hitting this moment of marriage equality in Massachusetts, moving to Arizona, where we didn't get marriage equality until Obergefell.

00;37;57;19 - 00;37;58;00

Ralph

Yeah.

00;37;58;03 - 00;38;03;23

Jeanne

What do you see as the the breakdown along that line of the gay rights movement?

00;38;03;23 - 00;38;42;19

Ralph

Well, I think for one, the final tipping point for the marriage equality — I guess I don't think of it as us having done it. I think of it as society sort of catching up. It's like they, they needed to, like the rest of the people needed to do it really bad. And we needed it. We needed it. And I, one of my pet peeves is the number of talks that begin with, of course I support marriage equality, however, for disenfranchised— Bullshit. Bullshit. People who are poor? Marriage matters.

00;38;42;19 - 00;39;03;16

Ralph

Whether or not you can get married. It matters as a kid to know that you can get married. And, so you can take polls all you want, and those little boys want a husband and a baby. And you may not like that. You may think, I want you to expand your ideas of what you can. That's fine. Go and expand the ideas of the heterosexual kids first.

00;39;04;14 - 00;39;12;18

Ralph

They get to like have a, they get to have something to rebel against, you know, something to break away from first. They haven't had that yet. Let them have it.

00;39;13;04 - 00;39;38;26

Jeanne

It's really interesting to think about that. The way that you're saying it is this idea of, society needed to do something about us. And now there's these ideas that — they're not wrong and they're not inaccurate — but they're not something that we're just going out and doing for ourselves necessarily. And that that's something that boxes us in, even though it's supposed to be giving us more options.

00;39;38;29 - 00;39;48;15

Ralph

Right. So you're saying like the marriage, in the way that I'm saying that does that present gender identity and in the way we present marriage? Yeah. Oh, definitely, yeah.

00;39;48;28 - 00;39;52;14

Jeanne

So are you still involved in ministry now?

00;39;52;23 - 00;40;01;06

Ralph

I haven't been for a while. I, I had a tough leaving. It was, there was a, a bully, you know, and.

00;40;01;19 - 00;40;03;17

Jeanne

At what level? like institutional or?

00;40;03;27 - 00;40;18;11

Ralph

Well it started out in the congregation and it grew to institutional. It sort of mobbed and somebody who was like a bully would be was very clear with me that they did not want me there and they intended to have me gone.

00;40;18;26 - 00;40;21;00

Jeanne

Oh, wow. Very direct about that.

00;40;21;12 - 00;40;41;09

Ralph

Oh, yeah, yeah. It took a couple of weeks before, but yeah, I knew that from early on. And the other tension was we were gearing up towards the recession at that point and I don't think anybody had the the insight that that's what was going on. But the anxiety was always, it's becaus,e it's because of him. Because of him.

00;40;42;14 - 00;40;44;14

Ralph

People aren't coming. People aren't giving.

00;40;44;15 - 00;40;49;01

Jeanne

People look for something, someone to blame.

00;40;49;01 - 00;41;14;12

Ralph

The congregation? If anybody thought that, their attitude was always, who cares? You know, we'll deal. But for some of the other staff, for the senior staff, certainly, he would waffle between wanting to be supportive and knowing how to do that and not, and I had a son who had very special needs and I had a violent assault that happened.

00;41;14;12 - 00;41;20;13

Ralph

And all of this just cascaded and I imploded. I just couldn't, I couldn't keep it up.

00;41;22;07 - 00;41;28;07

Jeanne

I think it's a specific kind of homophobia to be told, like it's not because you're gay,

00;41;28;13 - 00;41;29;16

Jeanne

But because of

00;41;29;23 - 00;41;34;07

Jeanne

What ther people think of you because you're gay, I need you to leave.

00;41;34;25 - 00;41;59;11

Ralph

Yeah, it is. It is. It's because, it makes it so hard to to know where to wage the war because you're waging it against windmills. Yeah, it's just we think this is probably a problem. Now, one of the first tactics done was we went to, we went on a trip and this person scheduled, or set up the rooms so that I was, I would be expected to sleep in a bed with one of the teens.

00;42;00;07 - 00;42;29;05

Jeanne

What?

Ralph

And so I had to, I got a cot in the bedroom and I like did a rotation system and like, I'm not even showering with you guys in the room. No, no way. I've done this long enough. I know. I know about everything. My old office was glass windows on, like, four sides, you know, it was like. I remember in high school hearing about those people, the preschool workers, and they were in jail for like 25 years before they got out.

00;42;29;05 - 00;42;48;18

Ralph

And then the one died like a year after he got out. I followed that. That was like my Section 28 or whatever the law is over in, in England. That meant the teachers couldn't, their no promo homo thing. And they've done studies about how these teachers, you know, even years after they still showed the signs of the trauma of that.

00;42;48;22 - 00;43;04;04

Ralph

Yeah. And that, that was it for me, those, those nursery worker cases. Because I wanted to work with young people and oh, oh that was. And even then, you know, nobody was saying that these people were gay. But I knew, I knew that was what was going on.

00;43;04;12 - 00;43;08;05

Jeanne

There's a real fear to work with kids on any level.

00;43;08;05 - 00;43;19;24

Ralph

Yeah, it's sad because my whole, my whole ministry, as passionate as I am, I always kept the kids at a distance, and especially, sad to say, if it was a kid who seemed likely to be gay.

00;43;20;06 - 00;43;22;16

Jeanne

Yeah.

00;43;22;16 - 00;43;48;02

Ralph

And so I'm hoping to find opportunities to overcome some of that.

Jeanne

Yeah.

Ralph

I have a nephew who's out. We haven't talked about it more than a sentence yet, and he's been out for years, I mean, years and years. But I'm, I'm determined to at some point, you know, be able to have a conversation about what that — I talk to his partner on online.

00;43;48;18 - 00;43;54;14

Ralph

I message him.

00;43;54;18 - 00;44;02;25

Ralph

It's sad!

Jeanne

It's sad and it's challenging.

Ralph

Yeah.

Jeanne

Are you still able to be active in a faith community at this point? After that experience?

00;44;02;27 - 00;44;31;19

Ralph

Yeah, oh yeah. It took me a while. But the, my current hopefully soon to be husband, we just can't get down to the, we've been together for 15 years now and he's Mennonite. He happens to be Mennonite and I found him out here. So it's like, it goes in a circle. And he had a similar sort of growing up his parents were — I didn't tell you my coming out story!

00;44;32;03 - 00;44;35;09

Jeanne

Oh let's close with that, we have a little bit of time left.

00;44;35;19 - 00;44;59;06

Ralph

Okay. First my parents. My mom was my dad's secretary. She's ten years older than my oldest daughter. This is a later in life marriage of love. Their love was celebrated like their their headboard was this snakes writhing. My mom had multiple arms or something like that. Stark naked. I did not go into my parent's bedroom when I was scared at night

00;44;59;06 - 00;45;23;21

Ralph

So, like, I knew that I my, dad had a hard time, you know, going down on the ship. If it's you or your mom, I'm going to pick your mom. You know, like, just something you need to know. But at the same time, like, they had, my dad had wanted to be very proactively open minded and broad minded and stuff like that. Not that his other kids weren't.

00;45;23;21 - 00;45;43;12

Ralph

But there was something that he was wanting to do differently. And so with me, like our first trip to New York, we went to Washington Square Park and he identified for me, see those two guys holding hands, they're homosexuals, and this is what that means. And, and he contrasted it with what we saw in Times Square at the time, which was peep shows and pornography.

00;45;43;15 - 00;46;07;23

Ralph

And and he's like, so which of those two is dirty, you know? And I never heard anything anti-gay from my parents, ever. So when I realized I was gay, I wanted to tell them and I was terribly nervous, but I never, I knew I wouldn't be thrown out. I knew that they would, like, treat it like they would anybody else.

00;46;07;23 - 00;46;26;16

Ralph

And I've thought lots of times, you know, what was so scary then, which I have some ideas. But anyway, I wrote them a letter. They picked me up. I was at my grandmother's when they got the letter and picked me up and we're talking about it. Mom's crying. She had a harder time dealing with it, but my dad was just so relieved because he had known and expected and tried to think of things.

00;46;26;16 - 00;46;46;00

Ralph

But he was like, he tried to explain to me, he's like, there's, it just doesn't exist. Like saying I think my son might be gay. Everything that we know is, how can you avoid that? How can you make it not happen? And he's like, I didn't want to do that, but there was no idea about, What do I do?

00;46;46;00 - 00;47;12;08

Ralph

And so he's like, I tried, but, you know, he — our relationship improved exponentially after that. Mom, still a little weepy, and all this. So, a couple of weeks after I had come out to them, I come home from school and she tells me to come in. She's sitting in the dining room and she's got these shopping bags. And so I'm thinking about this more and I was thinking, you know,

00;47;12;08 - 00;47;36;27

Ralph

What if you meet some guy and his parents aren't okay with it, you know, they don't even want to come to the wedding. My mom was sometimes a little clueless. She didn't really think about the fact that it's not legal at that point, you know? And she's like, and you're so comfortable with yourself just being yourself. And what if you're with somebody who's really, you know, anxious about being seen as the woman. Who's going to get the china?

00;47;37;05 - 00;48;04;04

Ralph

So I thought, I'm just taking that off the table right now. And she pulls out an eight place setting of bone china. Gravy boat, serving dish, and all this stuff. Somehow for this daughter of a coal miner, where she got these high sensibilities, somehow my having bone china on hand ready to go, resolved the major anxieties she's had about what will be different in life now for us because he's gay.

00;48;04;11 - 00;48;13;18

Jeanne

I love that so much. That's such a Pennsylvania story. It's, I love that so much. Thanks for recording with me today.

00;48;13;23 - 00;48;18;22

Ralph

You're welcome. Thank you for having me. This was amazingly affirming.

00;48;19;01 - 00;48;37;02

Jeanne

Oh, I'm so glad. Thanks again to Ralph for joining me on this week's episode of The Arizona Equals Conversation. If you'd like to hear each new episode as it's released, you can follow the show on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or on the podcast player of your choice.

Vanessa Marie is an Arizona-based, queer writer and publisher. In this interview, we talk about her career as a substance abuse counselor, her decision to leave Christianity, and her path to accepting her bisexuality.

Links for Additional Context

* Vanessa’s website

* The Spectrum Academy

* ACLU x Equality Arizona Town Hall

* Recovering from Religion

* Aristotle and Dante Discover the Secrets of the Universe

* Disability: A Writer's Guide to Creating Diverse Characters

Arizona Equals is a conversational interview podcast rooted in the idea that stories have power. Each episode, we sit down with an LGBTQ+ person living in Arizona to talk about their community ties and experiences in the state. Visit our website to listen to the full archive or to sign up to be a guest on a future episode of the podcast.

Full Episode Transcript

00;00;00;13 - 00;00;27;09

Jeanne

Hey, thanks for listening to the Arizona Equals Conversation. I'm Jeanne Woodbury. I'm the policy and communications director at Equality Arizona and the host of this podcast. Each week on the show, I sit down and talk with an LGBTQ+ person living in Arizona. With each interview, I try to capture a picture of my guest as a person at the center of a network of relationships.

00;00;27;27 - 00;00;55;13

Jeanne

For today's guest, Vanessa, part of her network is Equality Arizona. She's one of our most active volunteers, and it's really been a joy to work with her. She's a person who's always searching, who questions the conclusions that are presented to her and who has a deep motivation to make a difference and to help others. If you'd like to join our team of volunteers, just visit EqualityArizona.org/volunteer.

00;00;56;06 - 00;01;35;06

Jeanne

If you're listening to this episode on the date of its release, it's September 14th, which means there's just under a month until early voting begins in Arizona and a little bit less than two months until Election Day. At Equality Arizona, this is one of our busiest times of the year, and we could really use your support. But for now, I'll let Vanessa introduce herself and get the conversation started.

00;01;39;24 - 00;02;07;09

Vanessa

So I'm Vanessa. I go by Vanessa Marie on many online spaces. I am a YA fantasy writer, fantasy, paranormal, and horror writer and book publisher. And my pronouns are she/her, and I'm excited for this interview today.

00;02;07;18 - 00;02;31;26

Jeanne

Thanks. Well, thanks for being on the show with me today. We met, I think, the first time at one of the Spectrum Academy events, which was a blast. I think that was actually maybe the first Spectrum Academy event we did. And so I wanted to get a sense of, you know, how did you find out about that event and what's your, kind of, experience finding community spaces in Arizona?

00;02;33;00 - 00;03;41;15

Vanessa

I think I was just, at the time, looking for different things to get involved with, with the whole Roe v Wade being overturned and everything, and wanting to get more into learning about politics, and kind of getting involved in different organizations I've never been much of a political person before, but as the years have been going by and things just seem to get worse and worse and worse I'm like, okay, I should probably try to, you know, do something to like, try to get my voice heard or, you know, do something to work on making a change.

00;03;41;28 - 00;04;14;26

Vanessa

And so so I was looking for, I think I was looking for events about the whole Roe v Wade situation. And I think that's how I found out about Equality Arizona was through that event with ACLU, because ACLU I know had different things going on that I was looking through and I signed up for a few different things that were doing.

00;04;15;18 - 00;04;23;20

Vanessa

And I showed up for the town hall and heard about Equality Arizona and the Spectrum Academy. And I think that's how.

00;04;24;00 - 00;04;49;21

Jeanne

Oh, that's great. Yeah. I remember just after the Dobbs decision came out, there was an explosion of people looking for a way to make a difference. Right. There were a lot of rallies. There were a lot of people volunteering for the citizen initiative for a period of time. And I think for a lot of people, that was the moment where they were like, oh, yeah, this is this is bad and I have to do something about it.

00;04;50;04 - 00;04;59;28

Jeanne

You were saying that for you, it's been kind of like a multi-year process of just like, oh, yeah, I have to make my own change in the world, right?

00;05;00;20 - 00;05;34;27

Vanessa

Yeah. Oh, yeah. And I'm still, I've still been trying to figure out how exactly I want to go about doing that. That's something I've still been working on and talking about with, um, with my therapist. Cause I'm, I also have ADHD, so I tend to jump around into different things depending on my interests at the moment and my passions at the moment.

00;05;36;23 - 00;06;14;21

Vanessa

And so I, I've always been a writer. I've always loved to write, and I've always loved to tell stories and write stories. And so I have my own book publishing company that I self-publish through. And I knew that was going to be one of the ways I wanted to kind of make a difference would be through books and stories and writing my stories.

00;06;15;09 - 00;06;51;18

Vanessa

But as things kept progressing, I would be telling my therapist, but I feel like I need to do something more or something like, bigger. But I wasn't sure what. Because if you know, if you know writers and stories, it can take a long time just to get one story, one book completed, and done and out. And I was like, I want something that I can you know, see that progress faster.

00;06;51;24 - 00;06;53;27

Jeanne

Oh, yeah. No, that makes a lot of sense to me.

00;06;54;04 - 00;07;18;08

Vanessa

Yeah. And so that was something I was telling her. I'm like, I don't know how to get involved. Other, you know, besides writing books and stuff, I'm not sure where to start. So just, you know, kind of got online and started doing some research and trying to find organizations.

00;07;18;08 - 00;07;25;25

Jeanne

That's great. With your writing and publishing, how did you get into that work, and how long have you been doing that?

00;07;27;19 - 00;07;58;20

Vanessa

With the writing? I've always loved writing since I was a kid, so I've been writing stories since I was a kid. But as far as actually doing as seriously as work and publishing that started a couple years ago, actually. So I started my publishing company in 2020, summer of 2020, in the middle of the pandemic.

00;08;00;07 - 00;08;06;29

Jeanne

Yeah. Was that connected? Like, here's the pandemic, here's what I'm going to do, or just a coincidence?

00;08;07;09 - 00;08;59;04

Vanessa

No, it was, I think, more just, you know, I have, at this moment in time trying to figure out what I want to do next. Like, where do I want to focus next? And so, you know, because I was — before, I was a counselor, substance abuse counselor, um, for a few years and then I left that field in 2018, partly due to health reasons, and then also just wanting a change.

00;08;59;05 - 00;09;11;00

Vanessa

That's the ADHD part, which I didn't realize until I got my diagnosis, but yeah, that, wanting the newness and change.

00;09;11;07 - 00;09;22;00

Jeanne

Well, and I can imagine working in substance abuse counseling that, over a long period of time there could be, you know, an effect, like a kind of taxing effect of that work.

00;09;22;15 - 00;09;56;13

Vanessa

Yeah. Yeah. And so I was also getting more sick, quite a bit, mainly because I don't tend to listen to my body when it says to take a break and rest. And so I tend to end up doing more than I should. Um, so yeah, that's why I — it was partly for health reasons as well. But after I left, that was in 2018.

00;09;56;13 - 00;10;31;28

Vanessa

And then I tried to do some different freelance work for a while doing like some copywriting and website copy, and then I had a mentor at that time that asked, you know, you're so passionate about the publishing and the books, why don't you just do that? And it took me a little bit of time, but I, that was kind of the push that made me go, okay, I'm just going to go for it.

00;10;31;28 - 00;10;48;12

Vanessa

I'm going to do it. And that's when I started the publishing in 2020. I started the publishing company officially; did the LLC and everything.

00;10;49;00 - 00;11;08;04

Jeanne

That's so cool. I think independent publishing can look like a lot of different things, right? Because like you were saying before, like, making your voice heard is really important to you in terms of making a difference in the world. And I think a lot of people approach independent publishing that way. Right. They're marginalized from the publishing industry, the mainstream publishing industry in one way or another.

00;11;08;14 - 00;11;29;05

Jeanne

And they want to create their own way of doing it, not just their own publishing house, but they have an idea of how to do the work that's different because of the experience they've had. And so I wanted to learn a little bit about, well, first of all, what's the name of your publishing company? And then for you running it, you know, what's the day to day?

00;11;29;06 - 00;11;31;12

Jeanne

How do you make things happen?

00;11;33;12 - 00;12;13;05

Vanessa

Um, kind of want the name of it right now is Hananiah Publishing, but it will, I am going to be rebranding and changing the name once I figure out a new name that I want, because the name that I came up with, Hananiah Publishing, that was back when I was still a Christian. And so, um, Hananiah means "God will provide" and I have since left Christianity.

00;12;13;14 - 00;13;15;18

Vanessa

So yeah, I want to rebrand it eventually. So in terms of the day to day, like right now my publishing company is just, I just publish my books. So I haven't published other authors yet so there's not too much in terms of the day to day, what needs to be done. However, I am working on a project which I don't want to say too much because it is still in the initial beginning stages, but I am working on a project to do an anthology book with other authors as well.

00;13;16;16 - 00;13;58;26

Vanessa

Other queer authors and queer voices,

Jeanne

Oh, that's really cool.

Vanessa,

Yeah, I'm trying to figure out the planning for that and how to go about putting that together. I do have a couple other writer friends that are interested in helping me with this, so that's what I'm going to be working on and hopefully I'd like to have that anthology come out not next year, but probably the year after, during Pride Month.

00;13;59;09 - 00;14;24;11

Jeanne

Oh, that's great. That's, I mean, that's a fast turnaround. So that's really cool. When you approach a big project like an anthology or rebranding, which I imagine also has probably in both cases a really personal element. Where do you start from like a creativity standpoint, I'm going to do this really big creative project? How do you plan that out or what's your approach with that kind of thing?

00;14;25;14 - 00;15;02;24

Vanessa

Yeah, um, so with that, I usually what I do, um, especially for like something like this anthology project, something new I haven't done before. So the first thing for me is always research. Getting as much research as possible. Talking to others. I actually have a friend online who has a publishing company herself, independent publishing company, and she's done anthologies with other authors.

00;15;02;24 - 00;15;26;09

Vanessa

So I kind of picked her brain and chatted with her on like, you know what to expect, like what kind of turnaround, how to go about doing certain things. And so first step for me is always just gathering information and learning what needs to be done to actually get it done.

00;15;26;18 - 00;15;45;27

Jeanne

Yeah. And you mentioned with the anthology working with a couple other writers and that it's going to be, I think you said maybe like a queer anthology. So it sounds like for you having people that you can reach out to and work with and learn from is a big part of it, and that in a lot of cases that's other queer people.

00;15;46;07 - 00;15;52;10

Vanessa

Mm hmm.

Jeanne

How have you built those networks over time?

00;15;54;01 - 00;16;45;07

Vanessa

Right now, they have been mostly built online, in the online space because the — so a little bit about my story, my journey. I did not come to terms or accept my queerness until after I left Christianity. So I left Christianity towards the end of 2020, beginning of 2021, and didn't come to terms with the fact that I'm bisexual until about spring, early summer that year, 2021.

00;16;45;24 - 00;17;20;01

Vanessa

So just last year. Um, and so, you know, that was still during the pandemic when most things were not open yet. So a lot of the networks and connections that I had to make way through the online space so I'm hoping to start making more connections in person and locally. I would love to do that, but so far most of them, yeah, are online.

00;17;20;01 - 00;17;25;29

Jeanne

What are some of the venues online? Was it like Zoom events or Discord or?

00;17;26;24 - 00;18;29;21

Vanessa

Different, uh, different groups, like Facebook groups, Discord. When I had started having doubts and was deconstructing from my Christian faith, I found an organization called Recovering from Religion. And they're an amazing organization that helped a lot. And so, you know, they have an online community as well and, you know, weekly hangout groups and support groups every month. So I was attending those groups and chatting with others online and then started on getting into Facebook groups for LGBTQ in Arizona.

00;18;30;05 - 00;18;34;02

Vanessa

So kind of just through those things.

00;18;34;20 - 00;19;03;02

Jeanne

I imagine that a group like Recovering from Religion can be transformative. When — I think for a lot of people, when they leave a faith tradition behind, they go through this sudden vacuum of community. They have no one to talk to anymore in a lot of cases. And having a support group like that, that can connect you to other organizations and groups and friends can make a huge difference.

00;19;03;02 - 00;19;15;29

Jeanne

So. I want to go back a little bit. You've used the phrase leaving Christianity. What does that mean for you? What did that mean in practical terms?

00;19;15;29 - 00;20;08;09

Vanessa

Yeah, that was a huge transition for me. That's what made me go back into counseling. Back to see a therapist, to kind of work through some of that transition. So pretty much I just — when I started having doubts was due to the whole topic of slavery in the Bible and you know, the way I had learned about it, the way I had always thought about it was, you know, oh, it's, it wasn't actually slavery.

00;20;08;09 - 00;20;52;28

Vanessa

It was indentured servitude. They were like an employee, worked, had to work, oh, so many years, and then they were released from their debt. Well, that's one type of slavery in the Bible. But there is another type, the one not meant for the Israelites, for the Hebrews. And that type of slavery is more similar to what we saw in American history, where you can get slaves from the different nations around you, you can pass them on to your children as an inheritance.

00;20;53;23 - 00;21;41;02

Vanessa

They were considered your property. They weren't you know, they weren't their own person. And so my whole, when I started learning about that, my whole thing was, I've always been told we're all God's children he loves all of us, right? And he cares about every single one of us and wants a relationship with every single one us. So I started thinking, well, if that's true, how could he ever tell some of his children to treat the others as property and allow them to beat them and do all these things?

00;21;41;26 - 00;22;23;27

Vanessa

And it just wasn't adding up for me. And so that's when I started trying to dive deep into the Bible and Christianity and learning more and started learning more about how the Bible was actually put together and how different books of the Bible ended up being put in and some left out and all of that, and just ended up coming to the conclusion that there is no way that this is the perfect, infallible, inspired Word of God.

00;22;24;11 - 00;23;07;15

Vanessa

And so when that kind of when that building block foundation crumbled apart, so did everything else at that point. So it was kind of like, you know, I don't believe the Bible's the word of God. So where does that leave me? What do I believe? And eventually, a couple months later, you know, after still trying to do some more research and read different books and things, I came to realize, you know what, I don't believe a God exists at all.

00;23;07;15 - 00;23;27;29

Vanessa

So I pretty much consider myself an atheist, at that point. And that has been interesting coming from a family that is still very religious.

00;23;27;29 - 00;23;42;28

Jeanne

So did you grow up in Christianity? And then when you started to research and question things, did you have people that you could talk to about it who would listen?

00;23;42;28 - 00;24;17;22

Vanessa

Kind of? I tried. So when I first started having doubts and couldn't add up, you know, why God would, you know, allow this to happen in the Bible. I had tried to reach out to some church leaders and had talked to someone who, you know, had studied theology and the history and everything with the Bible, and aske all my questions and stuff.

00;24;18;18 - 00;25;06;04

Vanessa

And I did that. But it always comes down to the answer of, you know, it's just personal faith, right? And she was sharing with me that, you know, she's had doubts before. And, you know, she's wondered the same, some of the same things I've been wondering and asking questions about. But, you know, due to certain things that happened in her life, she has the belief that there is a God, you know, that's looking out for her.

00;25;06;04 - 00;25;58;18

Vanessa

And so, you know, that's great. But it's one person's experience where so many people have completely different or even horrible experiences. And so I was just like, I can't really put faith or belief in something just based on someone's experience and even my experience either because, you know, just because something happens that we don't necessarily understand doesn't mean we can attribute it to a god or a deity.

00;25;59;12 - 00;26;04;19

Jeanne

It sounds like it wasn't filling the needs you had in life.

00;26;04;19 - 00;26;05;01

Vanessa

Yeah.

00;26;05;15 - 00;26;28;18

Jeanne

And then after you left, on the flip side, it sounds like you were able to really self-actualize in a lot of important ways with publishing and coming to terms with your own queer identity. Was that something you had thought about and not had room for, or was that just part of one continual process of reevaluating things in your life?

00;26;30;13 - 00;27;09;29

Vanessa

Yeah. With that it was — there were always signs that I just kind of ignored and played off or tried to justify. Like, it's normal that girls find girls hot. Like, girls are hot! That's a normal thing, right? Like everyone thinks that. And just kind of like finding excuses and justification for why, you know, I like, guys too, so can't be gay, no.

00;27;09;29 - 00;27;26;28

Vanessa

Yeah. So, you know, pretty much suppressed that side and just focused on the straight hetero side of it.

00;27;27;21 - 00;27;33;22

Jeanne

Did you have any role models of like, queer people in your life at the time?

00;27;34;28 - 00;28;11;08

Vanessa

No, not, no one in my personal life that I knew, at least not no one that is out or anything. Because I remember when my when I first came out to my mom, she was very surprised and shocked. And she kind of made this comment of like, no one else in the family is queer. I'm the only one.

00;28;11;17 - 00;28;40;13

Vanessa

And I'm like, I'm pretty sure with our family being as big as it is. You're one of eight. You have seven brothers and sisters. They all have kids. I'm sure someone is queer. Even if they didn't, they don't say it. She's like, no, there's no one. So. So, yeah, I haven't had any anyone in my personal life as a influence or a role model.

00;28;40;22 - 00;28;55;20

Vanessa

It's mainly been from what I've seen in books and movies and shows, which is why I think representation is so important.

00;28;56;20 - 00;29;08;24

Jeanne

Yeah. Well, it makes it really hard if you can't see anyone like yourself, right? And people are maybe sending signals that, it's not okay to have these feelings, right? You're going to do whatever you can to suppress them or hide them.

00;29;09;01 - 00;29;09;14

Vanessa

Yeah.

00;29;10;20 - 00;29;15;09

Jeanne

I'm curious, have you been in Arizona your whole life?

00;29;16;24 - 00;29;27;02

Vanessa

No, most of my life. We moved to Arizona when I was in seventh grade.

00;29;27;07 - 00;29;27;16

Jeanne

Okay.

00;29;27;26 - 00;29;37;05

Vanessa

So I've been here since seventh grade. And before that we lived in New York and in Florida for a bit as well.

00;29;37;05 - 00;30;04;02

Jeanne

Okay. And, you know, moving between different school systems. Did you feel like, I mean, I think Arizona schools and Arizona as a culture sometimes doesn't have a room for people to talk about being queer. I don't know if that's an experience you had, but it seems like it was, that you didn't have other queer people around you. What was your experience back then?

00;30;04;02 - 00;30;59;26

Vanessa

Back then in school and everything?

Jeanne

Yeah.

Vanessa

I, I don't think I really had that experience of, you know, knowing many people who are queer. Um, I do remember in high school my choir teacher was a gay man and I think that was one of the first times where I, I think I realized I knew someone or, or had these interactions with someone on a weekly basis that, that is queer.

00;31;00;22 - 00;31;01;17

Jeanne

That's a big deal.

00;31;01;25 - 00;31;31;00

Vanessa

Yeah. And I'm sure, you know, looking back now, I'm sure there had to be students I knew that are queer, but it didn't, um, it's not something that was out or, you know, not something anyone really talked about.

00;31;31;28 - 00;31;36;11

Jeanne

Yeah. It sounds like this teacher was, like, a positive figure for you.

00;31;36;27 - 00;32;11;28

Vanessa

Yeah. And I think, you know, the more I saw queer people, like, with my teacher, but then also with books and movies and stuff, like I said, the more I started seeing that, the more I had this internal struggle. Um, which I guess is why I kinda tried to push down and ignore some of the signs. Yeah. Um, because I remember —

00;32;12;19 - 00;32;58;08

Vanessa

Uh, okay, so I'll give you a perfect example of this. When I was in college, um, I think sophomore year or something in college, I had tried to start a book club with some friends right. And most of these were, most of my friends were girls I knew from the church I was attending at that time. And so we started a book club and the first book that we picked, me not knowing the, the subjects in this book, but we picked Aristotle and Dante Discover the Secrets of the Universe, which I love that book.

00;32;58;08 - 00;33;55;23

Vanessa

I absolutely love it. But as I was reading it and seeing, you know, this queer character and what he was going through and then finishing the book, I remember having this like, a little bit of a nervous panic moment where I was like, What are the other girls gonna think? Like, Is this going to be okay? What are they going to say about this book because of the, the content. I was worried how they might react, which, you know, I didn't have much to worry about cause they all loved the book like I did.

00;33;56;10 - 00;34;29;29

Vanessa

And actually one of my friends that was in the club with me at that time, we're still friends today. And when I came out to her, she actually told me she was bisexual.

Jeanne

Oh, wow.

Vanessa

So I was like, oh, cool. But yeah, it's it was something that I was just worried about what the reaction was because of, you know, all the churches I grew up going to, it was always a sin to be gay.

00;34;30;19 - 00;34;51;15

Vanessa

And then later on, some of the churches I've been to were more like, you know, it's a lifestyle, so even if you have same sex attraction, you shouldn't act on it. And you know, basically live a life of celibacy.

00;34;51;27 - 00;34;53;04

Jeanne

I've heard that message too.

00;34;53;15 - 00;35;20;14

Vanessa

Yeah. And so just getting all those types of messages the whole time growing up made me worried about what would happen. But there was also that part of me inside that was like, But why is it so wrong? And I remember thinking, You know what? This is one of the things I need to ask God when I get to heaven.

00;35;20;24 - 00;35;49;14

Vanessa

Like, why can't people just love each other if, you know why does it matter if they're the same sex? If they're both consenting, why can't they be in a relationship? Especially because as I started reading more and more queer books, I was like, ugh this couple so cute! I shouldn't root for them. I know it's wrong to root for them to be together, but they're so dang cute.

00;35;50;11 - 00;35;51;24

Vanessa

Like, how do you not?

00;35;52;08 - 00;36;01;11

Jeanne

Yeah, I like that feeling of just like, But this is a beautiful thing. Why should I feel bad about it? Or why should I judge it?

00;36;01;25 - 00;36;02;09

Vanessa

Yeah.

00;36;03;14 - 00;36;09;16

Jeanne

So you mentioned college. Did you go to college here or, well, did you go to ASU?

00;36;09;16 - 00;36;20;03

Vanessa

Yes, I went to ASU from 2008 to… I graduated 2011.

00;36;21;06 - 00;36;24;07

Jeanne

So right after the financial crisis.

00;36;24;18 - 00;36;24;29

Vanessa

Yeah.

00;36;25;10 - 00;36;27;20

Jeanne

How was that and what did you study?

00;36;28;20 - 00;36;30;28

Vanessa

I actually studied psychology.

00;36;31;02 - 00;36;32;06

Jeanne

Oh, wow. Okay.

00;36;32;12 - 00;36;45;21

Vanessa

Yeah. Which is why, you know, right after that, I went into my master's for counseling and then I did counseling for a bit. Substance abuse.

00;36;45;21 - 00;36;58;07

Jeanne

So that was actually a really long period in your life then: studying psychology, doing your master's degree, going into counseling. Had that been a long term goal?

00;36;59;04 - 00;37;30;23

Vanessa

Yes. Um, I always knew I, I loved psychology from when I was younger as a kid. I actually had a friend in middle school who described me as like the female Dr. Phil, which knowing more about Dr. Phil now, I'm —

00;37;30;23 - 00;37;31;13

Jeanne

Less of a compliment.

00;37;31;13 - 00;38;18;23

Vanessa

Less of a compliment, but it was that friend that actually got me thinking about psychology and wondering, like, this could be fun to to go into and learn about. And I took an intro to psych class in high school and I absolutely loved it, and I was like, yes, I want to do this. And so I knew going into college, into ASU, I wanted to study psychology and go into counseling. Did not know that it would only be a few years before

00;38;18;23 - 00;38;39;08

Vanessa

I wanted to completely change trajectory. But apparently, you know, my therapist told me, yeah, folks with ADHD tend to make career changes and moves about every five years or so, and I'm like, it was about five years after I decided to leave, so.

00;38;39;08 - 00;38;47;11

Jeanne

I think that can be a really positive way to approach a career, though. Moving between different things, you get to experience a lot and learn a lot.

00;38;47;21 - 00;38;48;01

Vanessa

Yeah.

00;38;48;14 - 00;38;55;23

Jeanne

Substance abuse counseling, I feel like, is a really specific thing to pursue. Was there something about that that drew you to the work?

00;38;57;13 - 00;39;27;09

Vanessa

Not really. Interestingly enough, I wanted to go into counseling because I wanted to work with kids who have been abused, and I never really thought about substance counseling. But when it came time for me to do my internship, the only places I could find were the ones for substance abuse treatment. And so I was like, okay, I guess I'll do that.

00;39;28;28 - 00;39;40;14

Vanessa

And ended up doing my internship at Salvation Army and ended up really liking it. And so just continued on after that.

00;39;41;18 - 00;39;47;07

Jeanne

Is that something you still have a connection to now that you've moved on professionally?

00;39;48;04 - 00;40;38;04

Vanessa

Yeah, it is something that I'm still passionate about and think about from time to time. One thing that I've wanted to do in the past and I still would like to do this sometime in the future if I get a chance. It's just, again, bouncing back and forth, depending on my interests at the moment. But I did want to have like a sober living house, kind of start a sober living house, just to help those that are, maybe have gone through treatment and are coming out,

00;40;38;04 - 00;41;02;01

Vanessa

but they don't have many resources, don't know where to go next, don't know what to do, kind of have a place where they can go and like figure out those next steps and help them learn to build new skills and how to find the resources they need and kind of do all that.

00;41;02;12 - 00;41;04;28

Jeanne

Yeah, I'm sure people would really benefit from that.

00;41;05;04 - 00;41;05;15

Vanessa

Yeah.

00;41;06;27 - 00;41;25;27

Jeanne

I think before we wrap up, I wanted to ask a little bit about your writing because I don't think we got to talk too much about like the actual stories and how all of that goes. You mentioned that you've always been interested and you've always loved writing. What were some of the stories when you were a kid that got you excited about writing.

00;41;28;02 - 00;41;44;18

Vanessa

You know what? Interesting enough, as a kid, it was the stories that I didn't see that got me into writing because I actually hated reading when I was a kid.

00;41;44;18 - 00;41;45;23

Jeanne

Oh, okay.

00;41;46;18 - 00;42;26;08

Vanessa

I didn't like reading. And so my sophomore year, or actually junior year of high school when, you know, we had an English teacher that like would have us read but we weren't forced to read any certain books, you can pick whatever. And so that's when I realized, oh, books are actually great. It's just teachers pick the sucky books. I don't know why, But yeah, so I never liked reading as a kid, but I liked writing because I wanted to —

00;42;26;15 - 00;42;40;15

Vanessa

I like creating different worlds and like, I wanted to go on these adventures and, you know, see the stories I didn't really get to see as a kid

00;42;41;04 - 00;42;46;28

Jeanne

I love that. Like, story writing as searching for something.

00;42;47;03 - 00;42;48;21

Vanessa

Yeah.

00;42;48;21 - 00;42;56;04

Jeanne

Is that still how you approach writing today and what kind of stories do you write now?

00;42;56;04 - 00;43;48;22

Vanessa

A little bit, it's — so the stories I write now have kind of been a little bit of what what my favorite stories are that I've read since finally enjoying reading. And then also what I still would like to see. And so, you know, I think in high school and college, when I got back into, when I was writing again and I started reading more and got into the Twilight books, which, now it's like, Hmm how did I like these?

00;43;48;22 - 00;44;04;02

Vanessa

But I was obsessed with the books at one point. And, and I always wanted, I was like, I want a Twilight meets Harry Potter mash up.

00;44;05;04 - 00;44;06;15

Jeanne

That is very fun, yeah.

00;44;06;15 - 00;44;39;28

Vanessa

I want witches and wizards and I want vampires and I want the whole world together. And so that was a story that I started working on at that time and never continued, put it on the back burner for a while. But actually since, came back to it and I'm currently working on it now, which, it's morphed and become completely different from what it started off as.

00;44;40;11 - 00;44;57;21

Vanessa

But it and the world has gotten bigger. So there's all types of supernatural creatures in this one. We've got demons and vampires and witches and ghosts, the whole supernatural gambit.

00;44;58;05 - 00;45;05;19

Jeanne

So if people are interested in reading your work, is there a place they can go to find it?

00;45;05;19 - 00;45;26;05

Vanessa

Yeah, yes and no. So. Okay, so currently I don't have my any of my fiction books published. I have one nonfiction book published right now about representation, disability representation specifically.

00;45;27;00 - 00;45;30;23

Jeanne

Can you tell me a little bit? I know I'm interrupting you, but can you tell me a little bit about that book?

00;45;31;20 - 00;46;09;11

Vanessa

Yeah, it's it's called Writer's Guide to Creating Diverse Characters: Disability. And it's all about, you know, some stereotypes to watch out for, don't fall into. And you know what I think writers should know and consider when writing a disabled character. And then there's some resources in that book for other places to look if they want to do more research.

00;46;09;22 - 00;46;25;10

Jeanne

Oh, that's great. That's great. I think that's something a lot of writers don't actually know where to start with. Right?

Vanessa

Right.

Jeanne

Or they make mistakes because they are sometimes just too afraid to to do their research. Right?

00;46;25;18 - 00;46;26;02

Vanessa

Yeah.

00;46;26;04 - 00;46;27;15

Jeanne

Or they just leave stories out.

00;46;28;10 - 00;46;55;10

Vanessa

That's true. That's true. And you know, I kind of wanted to avoid having — try to help writers avoid certain things. I give different examples in the book, but specifically the show Arrow. If you've seen that show.

00;46;55;11 - 00;46;56;28

Jeanne

That's the DC comics show?

00;46;57;05 - 00;47;15;02

Vanessa

Yes. Yeah. So in that show, one of the characters has something happen to her in a later season and the way the writers handled that situation I just thought was not great.

00;47;15;19 - 00;47;16;08

Jeanne

That's unfortunate.

00;47;16;12 - 00;47;40;03

Vanessa

So it became an example in my book of what not to do. So yeah, that's kind of what I share in that book. I do plan on making more books like that. So a writer's guide to writing diverse characters is kind of the series name.

00;47;40;08 - 00;47;40;24

Jeanne

Oh, that's great.

00;47;40;24 - 00;48;02;23

Vanessa

So the first one is disability, and then, still figuring out which one to do, I'm thinking I'm going to do a one on atheists next because there's a lot of misconception and stereotypes that I see.

00;48;02;23 - 00;48;03;21

Jeanne

Yeah, I think that's true.

00;48;04;09 - 00;48;05;19

Vanessa

Regarding that, so.

00;48;05;20 - 00;48;09;25

Jeanne

So if people are interested in finding that book or some of your other work, where can they go.

00;48;10;12 - 00;48;33;02

Vanessa

That one is on Amazon and it's on other retailers as well. It's only in e-book format right now. Eventually, when I get more in the series, I think I'll do a bind up and have a print version.

00;48;33;07 - 00;48;33;29

Jeanne

Oh, that'd be cool.

00;48;35;09 - 00;48;49;17

Vanessa

But right now it's just an e-book which you can get Barnes and Noble, Amazon, Google Play, all those places. Or if you have a Scribd subscription, it's on Scribd as well.

00;48;49;25 - 00;48;53;00

Jeanne

Oh, okay, cool. I'll put links to all of that in the show notes.

00;48;53;01 - 00;49;26;11

Vanessa

Yeah. And then for my fiction books, those are not out yet, but I do have, if you go on my website and sign for my newsletter, you'll get the access code for my, for the members only section of my website. And the members only section has a section for readers to read sneak peeks and short stories and different things.

00;49;26;13 - 00;49;39;02

Jeanne

Oh, that's really fun. I'll make sure to put a link to that. Well, thanks so much for being on the podcast today. I know we're pretty much out of time, but I really appreciate you coming down here today and talking with me.

00;49;39;09 - 00;49;41;03

Vanessa

Yeah. Thank you for having me on.

00;49;41;09 - 00;50;05;28

Jeanne

Absolutely. Thanks again to Vanessa for joining me on this week's episode of The Arizona Equals Conversation. And thanks to all of you for listening to the show. If you'd like to catch up on past episodes of the show, just visit EqualityArizona.org/stories, where you can find the full archive. While you're there, you can also sign up to be a guest on a future episode of the podcast.

00;50;06;19 - 00;50;34;09

Jeanne

I'd love to talk with you. As an important reminder before we close, October 11th is the last day to register if you want to vote in the midterm elections. If you need to update your voter registration, or if you have family and friends who aren't registered to vote, just use the short URL, EQAZ.vote and thanks again for listening to the Arizona Equals Conversation.

Tin Subsin is an ASU student, a political activist and a podcast producer. In this episode, we talk about balancing her queer and Asian-American identities, and the way they motivate her to build safer community spaces.

Additional context for the conversation

* Arizona AANHPI For Equity

* 18by Vote

* Chasing Cherry Blossoms on Apple Podcasts

* Arizona Equals May

* Berry’s Model of Acculturation

* one•n•ten

Arizona Equals is a conversational interview podcast rooted in the idea that stories have power. Each episode, we sit down with an LGBTQ+ person living in Arizona to talk about their community ties and experiences in the state. Visit our website to listen to the full archive or to sign up to be a guest on a future episode of the podcast.

Full Transcript

00;00;00;01 - 00;00;26;21

Jeanne

Hi. Thanks for listening to the Arizona Equals Conversation. I'm Jeanne Woodbury. I'm the policy and communications director for Equality Arizona and the host of this podcast. Each week on the show, I sit down with an LGBTQ+ person living in Arizona to talk with them about their life. When we created the show, it was born out of a frustration with storytelling projects that focus on an individual and interior journey.

00;00;27;24 - 00;00;53;05

Jeanne

I try to understand my guests as people at the nexus of a whole network of relationships, and that could be a relationship to a person or to a community, to your neighborhood, to your city, or to your state. These are the things that really define us as individuals. And with the Arizona Equals Conversation, that's exactly what I want to highlight about the queer individuals I interview on the podcast.

00;00;53;05 - 00;01;21;07

Jeanne

Today on the show, I speak with Tin Subsin. I first met Tin at an LGBTQ+ event hosted by May Tiwamangkala of Arizona AANHPI for Equity, who I spoke with last week on the podcast. You can find that interview and our entire archive at EqualityArizona.org/Stories, or you can follow the show on Spotify, Apple Podcasts or the podcast player of your choice.

00;01;22;04 - 00;01;54;11

Jeanne

Today's guest on the podcast, Tin is a student, a political activist and a producer on her own podcast through ASU titled Chasing Cherry Blossoms. With many of my guests, discussing the pandemic, I found it to be a particularly transformative time in their lives, not just because of the societal upheaval, but often for coincidental or almost coincidental reasons like moving, graduating, coming out, finding a job and more.

00;01;54;11 - 00;02;21;04

Jeanne

Listening to Tin, I felt that her experience trying to balance both her Asian-American and queer identities reached something of a breaking point during the pandemic. But I think that you should hear about it in her own words. So I'll let her introduce herself and get the podcast started.

00;02;26;17 - 00;02;40;08

Tin

Hello everyone. My name is Tin Subsin. I am a youth engagement fellow at the Arizona AANHPI for Equity, and I'm also a civic leader for 18byVote.

00;02;40;08 - 00;02;49;13

Jeanne

So you were telling me actually that you were running a podcast affiliated with ASU just earlier this year. Right? Can you tell me a little bit about that?

00;02;49;18 - 00;03;18;07

Tin

Yeah. So it's an ASU affiliated podcast that I helped create. So I was a junior producer with my advisor, Professor Reina Higashitani. And basically what we did was we talked to various Japanese-American community leaders and people who were really involved with the community as a whole. So that was in downtown L.A. and that was also in Arizona, kind of like local, too.

00;03;18;25 - 00;03;26;25

Tin

And we highlighted Japanese-American women specifically and told their stories and talked about like the Asian-American journey. So that was really fun.

00;03;26;26 - 00;03;35;04

Jeanne

Oh, yeah, that's amazing. And what was your process for reaching out to guests, especially locally? When you say, kind of, local, what do you mean by local?

00;03;35;17 - 00;03;58;11

Tin

Yeah, so we talked to just a few people. Well, specifically, my professor was the one that did a lot of the outreach. So that was like really helpful. And, but I want to kind of be that bridge between like the Japanese-American community and like people who are outside the Japanese-American community, because I'm not Japanese-American myself, so I'm like half white, half Thai.

00;03;58;11 - 00;04;25;00

Tin

But that would, I think one of the most memorable guests that I had was Cindi Kishiyama-Harbottle from the, she's the vice president of the JACL, the Japanese-American Citizens League, the Arizona chapter. Yeah. So it was really fun talking to her and talking about, because we had very similar kind of like — being Asian-American in Arizona is like a very unique experience, but we kind of had similar kind of journeys and stories.

00;04;25;11 - 00;04;36;15

Tin

So that's what I was kind of, with the local. And then we also talked to, you know, various people like we talked to some professors at ASU. And we also, I just there's such a long list. I can't remember everything.

00;04;36;15 - 00;04;37;15

Jeanne

That's exciting.

00;04;37;15 - 00;04;40;11

Tin

But every guest was important. I'm just going to put that out there.

00;04;40;11 - 00;04;42;07

Jeanne

How long did the podcast run for?

00;04;42;14 - 00;05;01;15

Tin

Right. So I was hired in February and it ran up until May, and right now it's still a work in progress, so it's kind of going through the editing process and everything like that. But I was, a lot of people think it was like a project, like a school project, but I was actually like hired on and specifically —

00;05;01;23 - 00;05;18;03

Tin

And then I also had like a co-junior producer who, we are both not like film students or anything like that, or podcast students, I guess. So we weren't part of that department. So we both have very different like, I guess career aspects, but we still wanted to do this podcast.

00;05;18;07 - 00;05;24;20

Jeanne

What is your focus then, if it's not that kind of media production? What are you working on?

00;05;24;26 - 00;05;46;24

Tin

Right, so, that's actually a very interesting question because I feel like most, like most college students, I'm still kind of up in the air. But what I specifically want to do, because my major is medical microbiology, believe it or not.

Jeanne

Oh, wow, that's great.

Tin

Yeah, I know when I tell people that, because we even talked to a few film students in LA and they're like, Oh, so what are you, like audio engineering majors?

00;05;46;24 - 00;05;57;10

Tin

No, medical microbiology. But I basically want to hopefully go into the genetic counseling field. I don't know if you know too much about that.

00;05;57;17 - 00;05;58;25

Jeanne

Can you tell me a little bit about it?

00;05;58;25 - 00;06;08;29

Tin

Yeah. So genetic counseling is basically it could be a variety of things. It's kind of like med school in a way, because, you know, you can be in different areas or fields.

00;06;08;29 - 00;06;09;15

Jeanne

Oh, I see.

00;06;09;15 - 00;06;20;24

Tin

Yeah. So basically you would look at people's like family history and then also you would look for markers and well, it depends on what you're looking for, but genetic markers you will get like their DNA sequence.

00;06;21;11 - 00;06;28;24

Jeanne

So they might give like a blood sample. And then you analyze their DNA and you look at maybe like a family tree.

Tin

Yeah.

Jeanne

And then where do you go from there?

00;06;28;24 - 00;06;47;18

Tin

Yeah. So it depends on like like you said what you want to do. But specifically what I want to do is work with like rare genetic diseases. So you would test maybe if you have someone in your family that has a rare genetic disease or just a genetic disease in general, you would see how probable it is for you to have that.

00;06;48;01 - 00;06;59;03

Tin

And also, there's other areas where there's like cancer genetics. So you can see how probable it is to have cancer. And so it's very, a taxing job as well, just like emotionally.

00;06;59;15 - 00;07;05;12

Jeanne

I can imagine. And I can imagine sometimes people might not want to know.

00;07;05;12 - 00;07;23;09

Tin

Exactly, so that is — I'm glad you brought that up because that's like one of the biggest debates. Right. So would you tell someone that they have a genetic disease or genetic disorder that's going to alter their life if even if there's a good probability of it, because then they have to change their lifestyle completely, right? Or would you just, like, let them know and then if it happens, it happens, right?

00;07;23;09 - 00;07;36;21

Tin

So it's just very, very it's kind of like a new field too. So there's a lot of debate on like bioethics. I just took a bioethics class that was just kind of like talking about genetic counseling. I was like, Oh my gosh, yeah, that's what I want to do.

00;07;36;21 - 00;07;41;04

Jeanne

Oh, that's that's a great entry point through ethics. Into the field.

00;07;41;04 - 00;07;59;05

Tin

Exactly. So it was just very you know, it's something that — because I originally was pre-med, so that was kind of the kind of the route for a long time. But then I realized I wanted to I still want that patient contact because before that I wanted to get my Ph.D. so it just keeps changing.

00;07;59;05 - 00;08;02;01

Jeanne

So that's the classic college experience. I think.

00;08;02;01 - 00;08;19;28

Tin

Yeah, honestly, I'm a junior right now, so it's like, okay, I kind of need to figure out what I'm doing, but I still have a little bit of time.But that's like, kind of like, an in-between, in between like medicine and just kind of like the more analytical side of like research and stuff like that.

00;08;19;28 - 00;08;34;08

Jeanne

Yeah, and I like that. It's actually still very personal and relational, um, which is similar to that podcast. I want to back up for a second. Is that podcast something people can listen to now, or is it something that's going to come out in the future? The one that you did at ASU?

00;08;34;08 - 00;08;51;24

Tin

Yeah. So it is. We have two sample episodes because I had a like presentation kind of showcase for it in March, I believe, and we had these like ten minute sample episodes. So you can listen to those, which is, mine's on there, you know, really pluging everything.

00;08;51;27 - 00;08;52;08

Jeanne

Oh, nice.

00;08;53;23 - 00;09;02;14

Tin

We can also, it should be out sometime I guess like in this semester, this fall semester, just because it's like editing and everything, because we have a lot of content.

00;09;02;14 - 00;09;05;28

Jeanne

Yeah it sounds like it. what's the name of the project?

00;09;06;06 - 00;09;07;26

Tin

It's Chasing Cherry Blossoms.

00;09;07;27 - 00;09;13;26

Jeanne

Wonderful. I'll make sure to put the information in the show notes for people to find that.

00;09;13;27 - 00;09;14;19

Tin

I would love that.

00;09;14;25 - 00;09;29;15

Jeanne

You mentioned that you were able to connect with the guests around what you described as a really unique experience of being Asian-American in Arizona. Can you tell me a little bit more about what that unique experience is?

00;09;29;15 - 00;09;54;25

Tin

Right. So to my, because I even just talk to different people of like Asian-American descent or just like around the country. And it seems like Arizona has like probably one the smallest Asian-American populations compared to like how big the city is, because there's not a lot of — just there was kind of like a big community going around the Chinese Cultural Center.

00;09;54;25 - 00;10;13;14

Tin

I don't know if, you know, it's like somewhere, it was like near like I think 32nd Street or something like that. But that was kind of like a meeting place for almost all, like the Asian-Americans in Phoenix. But then they like, closed it down because they wanted to build apartments. So yeah, apartments slash condos.

00;10;13;15 - 00;10;14;15

Jeanne

So that was a real loss at that point in time.

00;10;14;25 - 00;10;51;11

Tin

Exactly. So that was when I started feeling, I was already feeling isolated with being in the Asian-American community because I am biracial and I'm also Southeast Asian. So, you know, it's a minority of a minority of a minority, right? And then to add on to that with the podcast, I'm also queer, so it's like even more a minority. So then not having that place that we can gather or we can just like feel at home and no one can like make fun of us for like the food we're eating or like, you know, you can see people that maybe have like similar experiences as you that was like kind of what pushed me into advocacy because I was like,

00;10;51;11 - 00;11;05;20

Tin

okay, my area, especially the area that I live in, is getting gentrified and we're getting rid of all these like places that are so culturally significant. Like, why is this happening and why do they not care that, you know, they're displacing us basically?

00;11;05;20 - 00;11;37;11

Jeanne

Right. There's all these layers of marginalization. You're losing your community center. You're marginalized through the specific cultures that you're connected to. And then you're also queer. And you know, in the theme of this podcast, I'd really like to ask how that kind of works. Do you feel marginalized in your community spaces because of your queer identity? Do you feel marginalized in queer community spaces because of your racial identity?

00;11;37;11 - 00;11;38;14

Jeanne

How does that play out for you?

00;11;38;24 - 00;12;03;13

Tin

Yeah, I talked a little bit about this just previously at The Healing Circle. I know, but I'll just reiterate it. Basically, I feel like I have to hide my identity sometimes. So in queer spaces I have to kind of let go of my Asian-American identity because I, my, the issues that I face as an Asian-American is not put in place there because there's a lacking intersectionality.

00;12;03;26 - 00;12;23;27

Tin

And then within the Asian-American community, I have to kind of hide my queerness because I've had people go up to me or like they'll be like, oh, you know, we're very accepting of the LGBTQIA+ community and then when I, just like even just joking around, being like, Oh, I think that girl is really pretty. They're like, That's kind of weird of you to say.

00;12;24;07 - 00;12;33;04

Tin

So it's just like, where do I belong, right? Because if I can't be truly myself in any of those communities, like, where's my community? Right.

00;12;33;06 - 00;12;54;16

Jeanne

Yeah. Well, and for listener context, you mentioned the healing circle. This was an event through Arizona AANHPI for Equity. I was fortunate enough to go to that and meet you there and that seems like a space where you do get to have all of that. Is that pretty rare? And then how did you find and get connected to that group?

00;12;55;02 - 00;12;59;15

Tin

Yeah, I, I would kind of say that the only time that I felt accepted.

00;12;59;15 - 00;13;00;04

Jeanne

The only time.

00;13;00;04 - 00;13;19;25

Tin

Yes. Because I've been — you know, like I said, I've had past experiences with both the Asian-American community and also the queer community of just being outcasted. You know whether one way or another, and I bet a lot of people can relate to that, right, especially queer people of color, because you're just like, like I said, you don't know where you belong.

00;13;20;02 - 00;13;42;14

Tin

So having queer people of color, specifically queer like Asian-Americans, it's like, oh, I'd even know that we existed, you know, at that point, because it's just very strange to, I mean not strange, but it was very like comforting to see that there's people who struggles with their Asian identity and struggle with their queerness and they don't have to choose either one.

00;13;42;14 - 00;14;05;28

Tin

They can be both, right? So I've never had a space like that before because I've been to like my Pride Coalition in high school and they would just like disregard anything that I would bring up, even like, you know, we talked about in the healing circle, kind of the coming out story and just like all these things that a lot of people don't factor into the Asian-American identity as well.

00;14;06;11 - 00;14;21;26

Jeanne

Well, tell me a little bit more about that. I know we've talked about it before, but that coming out experience, I think sometimes people have one impression of what coming out is going to be like. And you had a really different perspective that I really appreciated. Could you tell me a little bit about that?

00;14;21;29 - 00;14;42;22

Tin

Yeah. So that's kind of funny too, that I'm doing a podcast and I'm not out to my family yet. So, and it's very like, you know, it's not that I'm worried that they, like specifically my, like really only my close family to me is my dad. So I'm not worried that he's not going to like accept me or anything like that.

00;14;43;00 - 00;15;07;03

Tin

It's just I feel like the he's from an older generation. So understanding, you know, the different identities within the LGBTQ+IA community. So it's not just like lesbian and gay, there's the whole spectrum, right? And it's very hard for him to grasp sometimes. But I think it's, he's a very accepting person. So I know that he would love me no matter what.

00;15;07;04 - 00;15;18;12

Tin

I just feel like it's not important for me to bring it up, which is kind of when I say that, when I keep on saying that out loud, I'm like, Oh, maybe it is because I identify with it so much I'm on this podcast, so obviously,

Jeanne

Right

Tin

Right

00;15;18;23 - 00;15;42;10

Jeanne

It is important to you. But then it's a question of, well, how does this enter into my relationships, like this really close relationship with your dad? There's other important things in that relationship, right, like in any relationship. So it makes sense to try to balance that. And I'm curious, I think you're clearly still working through this, but how do you approach that balance?

00;15;42;10 - 00;15;50;10

Jeanne

What are some of the other important things about those family and cultural relationships that you have to weigh against this really important part of yourself?

00;15;50;16 - 00;16;10;18

Tin

Yeah, I think we, specifically because I'm not very connected to my Asian-American culture, which I think a lot of people can relate to, especially, like I said, in Arizona, because there's no resources. So there's like not a lot of, there's really not a Thai community at all really in Arizona. If there is, I don't really know about them.

00;16;11;23 - 00;16;36;28

Tin

So I think the aspects of just like, change is kind of hard, and it's like not specifically for my family, but maybe like my, like, you know, the older people in my family, it's hard to kind of grasp something that's like not in the norm. So I think that's a lot of Asian-Americans can relate to that. So it's like we don't we don't want to cause any conflicts because, you know, family is usually all we have.

00;16;37;06 - 00;16;51;20

Tin

And we have such a big emphasis in family and there's like that's kind of like how we feel at home, right? Because we can't feel at home in other spaces, like I said, they just kind of feel marginalization. So family is always something that you can come back to, right?

00;16;52;08 - 00;17;08;23

Jeanne

And I think that's something that maybe white queer people, it might be part of their experience, but it might not be in the same way that it's, it's sometimes the only refuge or the only community space. You said something I thought was really interesting where you said, I didn't know people like this existed and you're one of those people.

00;17;08;23 - 00;17;09;07

Tin

Right?

00;17;09;13 - 00;17;21;07

Jeanne

But it makes sense when you don't have these resources and you don't have these community centers. Your family is the one place that maybe you can have the food that you want to have and not be judged for it, things like that.

00;17;21;11 - 00;17;44;20

Tin

Yeah. And I think to being like half white myself, I've seen the dynamics be different between like you know, the white community and the Asian-American community because we have like emphasis in the Asian-American here we have an emphasis on food and that's like how we bond with people. But, you know, maybe and that's like I said, if you don't get invited to like those food dinners anymore.

00;17;44;20 - 00;18;13;07

Tin

And that's like kind of an insult to you now, right? So just kind of having that connection with family and just knowing that, like you said, you have something to go back to and everything like that. And I'm really, actually I'm a big advocate on chosen family as well, which is kind of rare in the Asian-American community just because, like I said, I have that experience with the white side of my family and I'm like, okay, you know, family is family too.

00;18;13;15 - 00;18;31;26

Tin

But also we have to set boundaries. So I talk to like my friends who are Asian-Americans and they don't really understand setting boundaries or trying to kind of, you know, make sure that they're being fully themselves, which I think I said I'm kind of a hypocrite a little bit, right?

00;18;31;26 - 00;18;44;01

Jeanne

Well, that's a process, right?

Tin

Yeah

Jeanne

I'm curious when you're going out and you're creating chosen family, do you use that template of your own family? Are you able to bring that into that process?

00;18;44;19 - 00;19;01;24

Tin

Yeah, that's a good question, actually, because I think with my chosen family, we all are people of color or most of us are people of color, or we have a big emphasis in like just identifying with our culture, kind of.

00;19;01;24 - 00;19;02;02

Jeanne

Okay, yeah.

00;19;02;02 - 00;19;24;11

Tin

But we've all been kind of ostracized one way or another from our culture. A lot of my friends are part of the POC, like community. So we need to know, like, like I said, we, we need to know where we're safe and we need to know like how to kind of, I guess, balance, like you said, queerness and like being part of the POC community.

00;19;24;21 - 00;19;25;13

Tin

So.

00;19;25;21 - 00;19;52;17

Jeanne

Yeah. When you've mentioned these experiences, you have interviewing people for the podcast, finding community has pushed you into advocacy and it seems like part of that advocacy is just saying we're losing our community spaces and part of it is just finding ways to create community. So how long has that been going on for you and what are some of the challenges or maybe really wonderful things you found through that?

00;19;53;08 - 00;20;25;09

Tin

Yeah, so it's been a long journey. I think I've always had the mindset of like, something's wrong, I need to do it, I need to, I need to change something. And I don't, I just never knew what I could do. But then I think around the podcast, that's where it kind of pushed me because I actually kind of removed myself from the Asian-American community for like around two years because there was just like a really bad incident where I try to find community within like at least the ASU sphere.

00;20;25;09 - 00;20;31;23

Tin

And it did not work out for me. It was just like maybe just the wrong people or the wrong time and it was like during quarantine too. So it was kind of like.

00;20;31;28 - 00;20;35;00

Jeanne

Was this sort of at the beginning of your time at ASU?

00;20;35;00 - 00;20;55;03

Tin

Right. So it was before I even got into ASU. So I kind of connected with a few people and it was just very, it, I was trying to be someone that I wasn't. So I was just trying to kind of be like, Oh, more, I guess, Asian than I should, like I really am because I'm like, Oh, I have to be this certain way.

00;20;55;09 - 00;21;14;10

Tin

So that people can accept me for who I am. So that's, I just like, didn't want anything to do with it. I was like, okay, I'm just going to, you know, keep my head down and work through it. And then I actually took an Asian-American psychology class, and I realized that not every Asian-American person feels the way I am with, like, the marginalization.

00;21;14;23 - 00;21;15;22

Tin

So, like.

00;21;15;22 - 00;21;16;09

Jeanne

Oh okay, fascinating.

00;21;16;09 - 00;21;20;01

Tin

Yeah. And there's like this like Berry's Acculturation Model, which.

00;21;20;17 - 00;21;21;21

Jeanne

Tell me a little bit about that.

00;21;21;21 - 00;21;24;15

Tin

Yeah, I definitely can because it's my favorite thing to talk about.

00;21;24;16 - 00;21;25;02

Jeanne

Oh, amazing.

00;21;25;02 - 00;21;54;19

Tin

Yeah. So it's basically there's like four quadrants and it's like, how close are you to your host country and how close are you to like your indigenous or native country? And there's like assimilation, so you completely accept your host country and then you leave any like native cultures behind. And then there is like integration, I believe, where it's like you can have the best of both worlds and I know there's one other one, but I'm not sure, and it is.

00;21;54;19 - 00;21;58;13

Tin

Basically, I have to think about it, but I'll definitely.

00;21;58;13 - 00;21;59;19

Jeanne

I think I can picture it.

00;21;59;19 - 00;22;00;04

Tin

Yeah.

00;22;00;09 - 00;22;02;15

Jeanne

Two axes and then four quadrants.

00;22;02;15 - 00;22;30;06

Tin

Exactly. And there was the one that stuck out to me the most was the marginalization. So that means that you don't feel any connection to your native country and you don't feel any connection to your host country. And I was like, Oh, that's me. Yeah. And then we started talking about how those people have in the marginalization section have more, I guess there's more cases of like depression and they're more likely to have depression and isolation.

00;22;30;06 - 00;22;37;29

Tin

And just like all these mental illnesses because of their feeling marginalization. And I was like, Oh, maybe that is me.

00;22;38;11 - 00;22;39;26

Jeanne

I mean, it's alienating.

00;22;39;27 - 00;22;40;17

Tin

Exactly.

00;22;41;04 - 00;22;45;06

Jeanne

Where do you see a lot of the people that you're able to meet on that quadrant?

00;22;45;09 - 00;23;05;19

Tin

Yeah, and it's like, that's a good question too, because I've met so many different people now. I would say in my high school, I would think that they were either in the assimilation one or the marginalization one, because there was not a very, I think there's probably ten Asian-Americans in my high school, and it was a pretty big high school.

00;23;05;19 - 00;23;30;24

Tin

I think our graduating class was like 500 people or something like that. So, you know, but it's just it makes me really sad to see that we have to choose that side, right? Ideally, I would want everyone to be integration, right? And they would be like, you know, connected to their host culture and native culture. But that's unfortunately, I see a lot of people in the marginalization category in Arizona.

00;23;30;24 - 00;23;43;15

Jeanne

And it seems like partly it's through a lack of resources and opportunity, not because people wouldn't choose that, but because sometimes they just don't have the opportunity to choose that.

00;23;43;18 - 00;24;09;11

Tin

Yeah. And going back to your question, I never answered with AZ AANHPI for Equity, I feel like they are like exactly what I was looking for when I was like in high school. I was like, I need, I have to have a community that understands my struggles and they don't dismiss just kind of like intersect— like because I know a lot of people don't have an emphasis on intersectionality and they just dismiss concerns or anything else.

00;24;09;11 - 00;24;17;16

Tin

Or if you feel, you tell someone you feel alienated, they're like, Oh, but you're, you're in this space, like, it's a safe space. But it wasn't truly a safe space.

00;24;17;24 - 00;24;18;03

Jeanne

Yeah.

00;24;18;08 - 00;24;37;00

Tin

So I, actually it's a funny story. I found them through like Instagram and I saw like their fellowship and I was like, Oh, okay. And then I met them at the ASU Culture Night, which was like for the Asian. I think [inaudible] was running it. I think the Asian-American Pacific, uh, culture, it's a long acronym.

00;24;37;00 - 00;24;38;13

Jeanne

Yeah, it's a lot of acronyms.

00;24;38;13 - 00;24;54;20

Tin

Yeah. So and then I got to meet Nile and May, who I didn't even know were Nile and May at the time and I was just like, oh, like, this is something. I saw them immediately and it was like, the vibes are great. So I was like, Oh, I actually want to apply to this now. So I'm really glad I got the opportunity to do so.

00;24;54;20 - 00;25;15;23

Jeanne

Yeah, Nile and May are really incredible and I think the work they're doing at that organization is really incredible and kind of unique in a lot of ways. There aren't spaces like that for a lot of communities where you get to bring different aspects of your identity in and actually see all of those things in a real way.

00;25;16;17 - 00;25;48;13

Tin

Yeah, and it's just like I've never had, like I said, a space that was like, you're not just talking to a wall when you're talking about these issues. They actually are listening to you and they're absorbing it and they're like offering comfort and not even comfort too, like solutions too. They're like, you know, how can we make this, or at least Arizona, a safer space for, you know, any community, just like, any marginalized community, including like Asian-Americans, including the LGBTQIA+ community.

00;25;48;13 - 00;26;16;22

Jeanne

So yeah. So you talked about not finding that until really recently, having some trouble early on in college and even before college and then in high school, having a really marginalized experience. What was your high school experience like in terms of navigating queer identity and Asian-American identity? Is it something that your school had room for and opportunity around or was it all just marginalization?

00;26;16;22 - 00;26;36;11

Tin

Well, so we did have the Pride Coalition, which I think in the later years because I know the people who took over it, it was very they're out there doing things. They're very involved with the community because I think they even were involved with one -n-ten, which is like an organization in that I think AANHPI might be involved in as well because we had a speaker from there.

00;26;36;23 - 00;26;39;16

Jeanne

So one-n-ten is amazing. They do a lot of work with queer youth.

00;26;39;24 - 00;27;01;20

Tin

Yeah, that's how I kind of got introduced to them and I've been kind of like, they've been on my radar. I really love what they're doing and I, you know, I really want to support them in some way. Well, I'm trying to go to some of the events that they're hosting and everything like that. But they were, it was kind of sad because there was no support within the high school.

00;27;01;28 - 00;27;29;03

Tin

So there was an incident where it was Pride Week and I'm gonna be really candid with you. So there is an instance where there is Pride Week and the Pride flags were taken down and, basically by students, there was a group of students and they put Trump flags up and it was just I, I just didn't understand why they were so hateful because it wasn't, no one was hurting anyone.

00;27;29;03 - 00;27;53;20

Tin

No one was doing anything. It was just having the celebration of a community that was different than maybe what your people are normally used to, which I think people should be pretty used to the LGBTQIA+ community by now because, you know, we're trying to get more accepted into society in general.

Jeanne

Yeah.

Tin

So just to have that mindset was like, Oh, we're not as progressive as I thought we were.

00;27;53;20 - 00;27;54;01

Jeanne

Yeah.

00;27;54;07 - 00;27;55;28

Tin

So it's very kind of heartbreaking.

00;27;56;09 - 00;27;58;03

Jeanne

Well, and that's scary, I think.

00;27;58;03 - 00;27;58;16

Tin

Oh, yeah. 100%.

00;27;59;03 - 00;28;10;26

Jeanne

Um, what was the Pride Coalition focused on? Maybe outside of a Pride event? What were some of the activities or projects that it would work on?

00;28;11;04 - 00;28;38;05

Tin

Yeah. So I was just kind of like I obviously I said I'm not out to my family, but I'm out to like my friends and anybody like, because we just met too. So obviously I'm out to you, but I was not out to anybody in high school, so I was just kind of like I went to like one or two meetings or anything and that was kind of, you know. In the beginning when I was like my freshman year, it was just kind of like a standoffish club.

00;28;38;11 - 00;28;58;07

Tin

Like I said then I know some people who took over do it and it was like a very safe space. So that was like a safe space, but also it wasn't. I still didn't feel comfortable enough to even like share my identity with people. It was just, like I said, maybe it was just my own journey that I was going on or anything.

00;28;58;07 - 00;29;15;26

Tin

But it was, they did like a lot of events that I wish I attended, but I was just kind of scared to, honestly. So they did like Movie Night and they did a, like I said, the Pride Week event and they worked with other organizations that I was kind of aware of just because they were like kind of like my friends running it.

00;29;15;26 - 00;29;22;09

Jeanne

Oh, yeah.

Tin

So but it was just something that I was not ready yet to be involved with.

00;29;22;17 - 00;29;53;20

Jeanne

And I think that fear can be a really real experience. You've talked about sometimes maybe overplaying aspects of your identity or underplaying aspects of your identity, trying to find your way just through society. And it seems like partly because these spaces are being taken away or threatened, you have to lean so much on your individual understanding of yourself instead of, well, "here's people like me."

00;29;53;21 - 00;30;08;03

Jeanne

Like when you said "I didn't know people like this existed" and you exist, right? But that is different. Knowing that you exist doesn't immediately tell you, Well, here's how I can go out and be in society.

00;30;08;24 - 00;30;31;13

Tin

Yeah. I mean, I definitely too think that the factor was that I didn't really feel safe as a person of color in my high school. So if I'm like, I don't want to add on to that, I don't want to add another target on my back. Yeah. You know, so because it's like, okay, I'm already a person of color, I can't change that. With queerness in a way,

00;30;31;27 - 00;30;42;11

Tin

You can hide that a little bit and it's not good to do that, but if my safety is at risk, I will have to do that just because I can't hide that I'm a person of color.

00;30;42;18 - 00;31;09;23

Jeanne

Right. And that's an important distinction. You're able to hide your queer identity, whereas you're not able to hide that. You mentioned getting into ASU and a little bit before that, having some trouble connecting to community there. I think it sounds like some of this was really early on in the pandemic, and I know that unfortunately there's been a real, like statistically significant rise in anti-Asian hate crimes.

00;31;10;05 - 00;31;15;05

Jeanne

Did that add to that level of fear that you were already experiencing?

00;31;15;14 - 00;31;41;19

Tin

Oh, definitely. Like definitely. There was this time where, so I'm like a little bit racially ambiguous. Like a lot of people don't know I'm Asian until I tell them I'm Asian, so I was just like, you know, I, I feared that something would happen, but I was like, okay, if something happens, like, will people attack me? Do I kind of look Asian or do I, or can I hide this too?

00;31;41;19 - 00;32;04;04

Tin

So that was just like the amount, I think kind of the thing that I think about was like, how do I kind of make myself look neutral as possible and just kind of protecting myself. So there's a point in time where I was, like, scared for my dad to even, like, go out to work during that time because I was like, what if someone, you know, just decides that they want to do something like attack him?

00;32;04;10 - 00;32;27;22

Tin

So it did definitely. And it's kind of ironic because I feel like a lot of queer youth, especially, you know, kind of people close to me or just in general, I see on like TikTok and stuff, we kind of found our identities through the pandemic. So that's something very interesting because I also was like comfortable enough to say that I was queer during the pandemic but before that, I would have never said that.

00;32;28;04 - 00;32;46;02

Jeanne

Why do you think that is? I'm really curious, because I've seen the same thing. I mean, obviously there's always people coming out. So it's going to happen during the pandemic, too. But it does seem like there's something about the pandemic experience for a lot of people that helps them actually to open up and and explore their identity.

00;32;46;28 - 00;33;08;28

Tin

I think personally for me it was a lot of reflection, right? So it was like, do I want to kind of keep hiding who I am to, you know, the general public, even though, like I said, not out to the family yet, but that's fine. But do I want to, or do I want to live the life that I want to live?

00;33;08;28 - 00;33;30;12

Tin

Right. And kind of I feel like everyone kind of went down that spiral and like during, you know, the early weeks of, like, the pandemic, and we're just like, oh, okay, you know, we don't know what's happening and the future's so unseen. So I just thought to myself, you know, I'm not going to stop myself from fully being who I want to be.

00;33;30;20 - 00;33;53;01

Tin

And if I, like, fall in love with someone and they're not, you know, the opposite gender, that's going to be fine. Because I always thought about that. And I know that a lot of people have similar experiences, like, oh, I have to, you know, even though, because I do identify most closely to bisexual, but I like the term queer best, but I say bisexual because people are like, queer, what is that?

00;33;53;09 - 00;34;16;16

Tin

So that's another thing with like the Asian-American community, we just kind of have to like pick a label because maybe your parents will understand that. So with that, I just knew that, you know, okay, I am queer, but then in the end I will probably be with a man just because it's easier and it'll be easier to explain to everybody, explain to like my family and everything like that.

00;34;16;26 - 00;34;26;12

Tin

But then I was like, Well, what if I'm unhappy with that? So I just kind of, you know, I guess let myself be who I want to be during that time.

00;34;27;04 - 00;34;38;15

Jeanne

And I think it's interesting in the context of everything we've talked about. Early in the pandemic, is this moment where almost all community opportunities are just fully taken away.

00;34;38;15 - 00;34;38;27

Tin

Right.

00;34;39;06 - 00;35;19;20

Jeanne

And it sounds like every time that happens, you kind of double down on saying, no, I'm going to go out and make this work somehow. And I think that's, one, just really an amazing thing. But two, I think, kind of instructive about how we process identity and community as like a conversation. Moving forward, now that you've made these big steps of getting involved in advocacy and community organizations, what are some of your hopes for queer community and Asian-American community in Arizona?

00;35;20;25 - 00;35;43;11

Tin

Yeah, I mean, I, I dream big. I really do. So I really want to focus on just making sure that, you know, like this is a big goal, but I don't want anyone to feel the way I felt in high school. Like they have to hide themselves, you know, maybe even for, you know, a day they could have a place where they can truly be who they are.

00;35;43;16 - 00;36;02;29

Tin

And it doesn't matter, like any of their background or anything, they can just be themselves. And I think that's kind of my goal with everything that I'm doing, cause like moving forward with, you know, AZ AANHPI for Equity. But I'm also working with this organization called 18byVote, right? And it's like.

00;36;02;29 - 00;36;03;23

Jeanne

Tell me a little bit about that.

00;36;03;23 - 00;36;30;29

Tin

Yeah. So basically we encourage 16, 17, 18 year olds to vote and we do it through education, but we kind of have kind of, I guess, hotspots in like six different locations where we have like different civic leaders, which I am and I want to kind of emphasize more on like grassroot movements and education workshops and stuff like that because people don't realize that marginalized communities are affected when trying to vote.

00;36;31;10 - 00;36;57;01

Tin

So, you know, and I that, you definitely have experience in that.

Jeanne

Yeah.

Tin

And because even with like the anti-trans laws that were just passed, and I really want to highlight on like why is this happening now and even from like a health care aspect, I know like monkeypox is kind of being marketed against like the queer community, especially specifically gay men, or identify people who identify as men.

00;36;57;11 - 00;37;14;21

Tin

So it's just very… I don't know, it's just like I feel like I want to kind of move forward from all this discrimination and everything like that, but I feel like I keep being pushed back. So my goals with that, sorry kind of tangent.

00;37;14;23 - 00;37;15;15

Jeanne

No I love it.

00;37;15;19 - 00;37;35;28

Tin

Yeah. I want to specifically with 18byVote, I want to host like education workshops for marginalized communities because like you said, our obstacles are very unique and a lot of people won't understand that. And they would just be like, Oh, just vote. But there's so many obstacles when it comes to voting that are put in place by people in power to keep our voices silent.

00;37;36;05 - 00;37;56;14

Tin

And that's not right. We have just as much right as any other American citizen or quote unquote, what they perceive as normal. But you know, what is normal, right? So it just, that's what kind of I would like to have is just, acknowledging the issue, because even acknowledging the issue is such a huge step for a lot of people.

00;37;56;14 - 00;37;58;21

Tin

It would be be like, your feelings are valid.

00;37;58;28 - 00;38;29;21

Jeanne

Yes. With the trans community, there's a real problem around photo ID laws for, you know, voter ID laws. And then if you have something that's really restrictive in terms of, you have to bring in a photo ID and maybe it doesn't match your current presentation or maybe not everything is updated and, you can run into real discrimination. What are some of the obstacles to voting that maybe you've experienced or you've seen people experience or that you are aware of for the Asian-American community?

00;38;30;00 - 00;39;00;21

Tin

Yeah. So I think the biggest thing within my family and other people's families, like Asian-American families that I've talked to, is that a lot of people don't think their vote matters because they just are taught to keep your head down, don't cause any waves or anything and kind of enforcing that model minority myth, right?

Jeanne

Ah I see, yeah.

Tin

So a lot of people, there's a stigma against like advocacy and activism because then you're kind of creating waves and you're not supposed to do that.

00;39;00;27 - 00;39;24;14

Tin

You're just supposed to be like a good citizen. But being, having, standing up for other people is being a good citizen.

Jeanne

Yes.

Tin

Exactly. So it's just like they, but just that perception of, because it's been years and years and years of suppression. Right. So there's like the Chinese Exclusion Act and then there's just so many like voter acts or just like. A lot of Asian-American, they're…

00;39;24;24 - 00;39;44;03

Tin

They have distrust in the government, I believe, too, just because of the incarceration camps of Japanese-Americans. So there's just, why should we even have faith in the government when they've treated us like this for years and years and years and years? So they also maybe just don't know where to start or they're just so used to this like suppression.

00;39;44;06 - 00;39;46;06

Tin

Yeah. So that's what I've seen personally.

00;39;46;12 - 00;40;12;23

Jeanne

And the concept of marginalization that you brought up in terms of not having that connection to the country where you live as opposed to just sometimes when we talk about marginalization, we mean a lack of opportunity or we mean not being able to express our full selves. But that experience of, I do not have an actual cultural connection on any level to the country where I live.

00;40;13;05 - 00;40;29;22

Jeanne

It's going to really change in the ways that you're talking about, the degree to which you can even be involved on a civic level. And so I really appreciate that perspective and all the time and everything you've shared. Thanks so much for being on the podcast with me today.

00;40;29;22 - 00;40;32;04

Tin

Yeah, thank you for having me. This was a blast.

00;40;32;17 - 00;41;01;17

Jeanne

Thanks again to Tin Subsin for being a guest on this week's episode of The Arizona Equals Conversation. If you'd like to be a guest on a future episode of the podcast, just visit EqualityArizona.org/stories to sign up. While you're there, head on over to our events calendar: EqualityArizona.org/events. September is voter registration month for Equality Arizona and we've got a lot of great opportunities to register new voters before the October 11th deadline.

00;41;02;00 - 00;41;19;13

Jeanne

If you've been enjoying the show, please consider leaving a rating or a review on Apple Podcasts. It really helps with our rankings and that helps to share these stories with a wider audience. Thanks for listening. And don't forget to tune in next week.

In today’s episode of the Arizona Equals Conversation, we talk with May Tiwamangkala, Democracy Defender Director​ at Arizona AANHPI For Equity. Topics include climate anxiety, online community, and progressive organizing in Arizona. May also shares how their experiences as a formerly incarcerated person and the child of immigrant parents informs and motivates their work.

Additional context for the conversation

* AZ AANHPI For Equity

* AZ AANHPI Youth Leadership Civic Engagement Fellowship

* April 2021 | The Unity March Rescheduled

* Toastmasters

* A/S/L Internet Slang

* Facebook’s Real-Name Policy

* Third World Liberation Front

* September 24, 2022 | Phochella Music Festival

* Fuerte Arts Movement

Arizona Equals is a conversational interview podcast rooted in the idea that stories have power. Each episode, we sit down with an LGBTQ+ person living in Arizona to talk about their community ties and experiences in the state. Visit our website to listen to the full archive or to sign up to be a guest on a future episode of the podcast.

Full Transcript

00;00;00;05 - 00;00;26;08

Jeanne

Hi. Thanks for listening to the Arizona Equals Conversation. I'm Jeanne Woodbury. I'm the policy and communications director for Equality Arizona and the host of this podcast. Arizona Equals is a conversational interview podcast rooted in the idea that stories have power. Each episode, we sit down with an LGBTQ+ person living in Arizona to talk about their community ties and their experiences in the state.

00;00;27;24 - 00;00;59;13

Jeanne

Today on the show, I got to interview May Tiwamangkala. They're a personal friend of mine and the democracy defender director for Arizona AANHPI for Equity. We first met a little over a year ago when we were working together at a migrant rights and criminal justice nonprofit called Puente. Since then, we've been able to share knowledge and to collaborate a bit, including with a recent LGBTQ+ Healing Circle event hosted by Arizona AANHPI for Equity at their offices in Tempe.

00;01;00;23 - 00;01;24;06

Jeanne

I've always been really impressed by the quality and originality of May's work and the dedication they bring to the work. And so I was really interested to find out what some of the motivations are that drives them to do the work. And over the course of this conversation, I was able to uncover some of those layers from their time in Arizona's criminal justice system to their experience as the child of immigrant parents.

00;01;24;28 - 00;01;45;24

Jeanne

At every turn in May's story, they're always finding ways to use their skills and their interests to help others and to build community. I was so happy to be able to record this kind of conversation with them, and I really hope that you enjoy the interview, too. But before we get started, if you're listening to this episode on the date of its release, it's August 31st.

00;01;46;06 - 00;02;12;02

Jeanne

In just a little bit over a month, we'll hit the registration deadline for voters who want to participate in the 2022 elections. With that in mind, we're dedicating most of the month of September to voter registration events, and we need your help as a volunteer. To help us register voters in the month of September, visit EqualityArizona.org/Events today to sign up for some of our volunteer opportunities.

00;02;12;23 - 00;02;28;28

Jeanne

And now let's get the conversation started.

00;02;32;27 - 00;02;46;27

May

Hi. I'm May Tiwamangkala. I am the democracy defender director at AZ AANHPI for Equity. That's Arizona Asian-Americans, Native Hawaiians and Pacific Islanders for Equity.

00;02;47;05 - 00;03;02;26

Jeanne

Thanks for having me here today at your office. Last time I came here was for the LGBT Healing Circle event that you put on, which I was really honored to be invited to. I think that was a great experience and it was the first time I had seen your office, and I'm just really impressed with all the work you're doing.

00;03;02;27 - 00;03;27;12

Jeanne

When I got here today, you had like a dozen people coming in and out. And it seems like the scale of your work is really taking off. You're doing work that I don't think really any other organization is doing the way you're doing it. You know, you have your focus areas, but then you find focus areas that are corollary and associated, and you use that to expand the whole scope of your work.

00;03;27;13 - 00;03;37;27

Jeanne

Like with the LGBT healing circle or with the criminal justice work that you do. So can you tell me a little bit about how you got involved in this organization and what your approach is to that work?

00;03;38;10 - 00;04;07;02

May

Yeah, well, what really got me into organizing and advocacy was me being incarcerated. Back in 2016 I was locked up. I spent, you know, a good couple of months in county jail. And I saw how many people were freaking out about possibly spending, you know, so many years in prison. And they had no idea how to navigate the system.

00;04;07;25 - 00;04;37;17

May

And I do have, you know, some college in my background, and I was like the only one who really knew how to write, really knew how to read the legal paperwork. So I would volunteer my time to kind of like discuss things with people who were, like fighting their charges. And then, you know, when I was in prison, that's when I really wanted to help others.

00;04;37;17 - 00;05;05;14

May

And I did. We hosted Toastmasters. You know, we trained for public speaking, just, you know, to help people out with their interviews, how to advocate for themselves and just be comfortable with their story and not feel like, you know, they are the bad guy. Like, there's a reason why, you know, this has happened in their life and there are people out there who are empathetic and compassionate and believe in second chances and all of that.

00;05;05;14 - 00;05;10;16

Jeanne

Yeah. And that there are ways for the system to work that could be healthier for them.

00;05;10;24 - 00;05;11;23

May

Right.

00;05;12;05 - 00;05;37;07

Jeanne

I think it's really interesting when you talked about your very first experience in the county jail where it wasn't just what was happening to you that motivated you to get into advocacy, but you said, here's a way to apply my abilities. And that's what got you motivated, is you saw people struggling with a system that didn't really care about them, didn't care about working right for them.

00;05;37;07 - 00;05;38;17

Jeanne

And you said, oh, I can help.

00;05;39;02 - 00;06;07;08

May

Yeah, they were just a number. And I think just me having a little more education than majority of them really helped my case. You know, I was facing up to 12 years and they wanted me to do four and a half years I ended up, you know, pleading for leniency. And I ended up getting two and a half, little under three years.

00;06;08;15 - 00;06;28;10

Jeanne

What is that process like being confronted with a with a plea bargain or being given that, you know, that that kind of terrible message of here's the potential sentence you could be facing, and then going forward from there to find a way to improve the situation. What is that like?

00;06;29;14 - 00;06;50;28

May

It's really intimidating. I mean, I know like over 90% of people who are charged, they just take the plea bargain because they say, like, if you lose the trial, you lose a case, there is a good possibility that you'll get the maximum. And most of the time the maximum is at least 12 years. And no one wants to risk that.

00;06;51;12 - 00;07;05;15

May

They'd rather just do the four years or the five years. So then, you know, they bargain or they take the plea. And then they also don't have resources to get an attorney to go through the trials and stuff.

00;07;05;20 - 00;07;38;07

Jeanne

From the moment someone gets put into the system, it's not like it's something they've ever been prepared for by anyone. And it's not like they are given the best resources by the system. And I think that there's like a psychological experience to that that is difficult to comprehend that I've only really been aware of because of some of my friends, including you, who have gone through that.

00;07;38;26 - 00;07;51;06

Jeanne

Um, I know for trans people often the policy is to isolate them, which then only makes it worse because you don't even have anyone else to talk to about how it might work.

00;07;52;13 - 00;08;01;10

May

No, I mean all trans people who are in county, they are in solitary confinement.

Jeanne

Yeah.

May

Because yeah.

00;08;01;21 - 00;08;08;02

Jeanne

It — I don't even know how to ask a question about that because it's just —

00;08;08;14 - 00;08;19;01

May

It's sad. Yeah. It really, it's torture. It's very traumatizing. Right? I mean, even if they have a minor offense, they're still having to go through solitary confinement.

00;08;19;09 - 00;08;44;06

Jeanne

Yeah. And then moving forward from that point, over the multiple years that you were in the system, was your experience inflected by your queer identity? Was that something that changed the time that you served compared to maybe some of the other people that you were incarcerated with?

00;08;45;07 - 00;09;16;05

May

Definitely. I mean, when I — so everyone goes through an intake process where they have to be in prison as if they were in maximum custody. So you're locked up for 23 hours for up to a month in solitary confinement because they need to categorize you and figure out which yard you're going in. And part of that intake, they do talk about PREA, which is the Prison Rape Elimination Act.

00;09;16;18 - 00;09;16;28

Jeanne

Okay.

00;09;17;18 - 00;09;20;10

May

And then they ask you if you are gay or not.

00;09;21;15 - 00;09;23;18

Jeanne

That's a thing that they ask every person?

00;09;23;19 - 00;09;37;09

May

Yeah.

Jeanne

Wow.

May

They do. I think I lied and said I wasn't gay. Cause I was like, I don't want to be targeted.

Jeanne

Right.

May

But because I was masculine-presenting during that time, you know, I had short hair.

00;09;37;14 - 00;09;38;04

Jeanne

Yeah.

00;09;38;04 - 00;10;07;15

May

Pretty much of a tomboy. I was targeted by correction officers, and they would threaten me with disciplinary tickets because, one, I got a haircut that was considered radical, but it was just like a short haircut for a woman.

Jeanne

Wow.

May

So that would have been a ticket. And that would have made me serve 100% of my time where, you know, if you get off on good behavior, you serve 85% of your time.

00;10;07;16 - 00;10;07;25

Jeanne

Yeah.

00;10;08;08 - 00;10;18;12

May

And then also, some people who were queer got tickets for sitting too closely to other people who were incarcerated.

00;10;19;27 - 00;10;31;18

Jeanne

So it's not even about, because you didn't check the box on the form, you didn't answer their question. And that doesn't even matter. They still decide that that's the box you're in and that they're going to treat you differently because of it.

00;10;31;26 - 00;10;34;24

May

Yeah. Just because I how I presented myself.

00;10;35;15 - 00;10;48;15

Jeanne

How did that affect how other people associated with you? Were people more or less likely to interact with you based on the discrimination you faced from from the guards?

00;10;50;06 - 00;11;18;11

May

To be honest, more people talked to me and I was you know, a lot of people liked me on the yard. I mean, first of all, I was friendly, you know, always positive. I try to keep a good attitude, but no one has been in a world where everyone is the same, I don't want to say gender, but like everyone who is born female.

00;11;19;08 - 00;11;24;23

May

You know, and then you see the gender dynamics because not everyone identifies as feminine.

00;11;25;16 - 00;11;50;16

Jeanne

Right. That's fascinating. I'd love to hear more about that. It's like an alternate microcosm of gender. And I think that's not an experience that everyone really understands. People don't always really get how gender can change contextually and how it's how it's an exchange and a conversation. So can you can you tell me a little bit more about that?

00;11;51;04 - 00;12;17;19

May

Yeah. I mean, everyone, you know, was born female, but the gender dynamics were really obvious in there, like, you know, from the way people dressed or, you know, there were relationships in prison. A lot of times when people are locked up and going through a traumatic experience, they want to be with a partner just to cope with all of that.

00;12;17;20 - 00;12;32;15

May

Right. You know, so you see a lot of women start, you know, taking on masculine traits to be that support for, say, like more feminine women. And it happened a lot, like this is really common.

00;12;34;05 - 00;12;48;26

May

You know, If they were to have a relationship and the correction officers found out about it, usually the masculine presenting person would get sent to solitary confinement.

00;12;49;12 - 00;13;19;24

Jeanne

Wow. So it's, it's a specifically gendered violence that's happening in a place that's already a form of gendered violence. It's those layers. You mentioned that partly because of that, you earned more trust from people. I think, it sounds like. You also mentioned, you know, at every step in this process, you were finding ways to help people.

May

Mm hmm.

00;13;20;22 - 00;13;27;15

Jeanne

And one of those things was the Toastmasters program. What was your involvement in that? And what does that look like?

00;13;29;00 - 00;13;58;15

May

So I was the one running around the yard. We made a banner that said, like, you know, "Toastmasters in the cafeteria. Everyone show up." And I would promote it. I would help facilitate it. And I would always, you know, give my speech and really get people engaged with the program because, you know, some people, they just want to leave from their bed or a cubicle and go somewhere.

00;13;58;15 - 00;14;07;09

May

But like I, I think I like, you know, really empowered the people who showed up.

00;14;07;24 - 00;14;28;19

Jeanne

You made it more than just a place to be.

May

Right.

Jeanne

And then when we were working together at a migrant rights criminal justice organization, you hosted what I'll always remember as just like a really excellent public speaking workshop. Do you get a lot of opportunities to use those skills in your current work?

00;14;29;04 - 00;14;30;14

May

Oh, gosh, yes.

00;14;30;15 - 00;14;31;00

Jeanne

Nice.

00;14;31;22 - 00;15;06;09

May

That's all I do is speak. I mean, it really is the most powerful weapon, is our voice. And me being able to just like, share my stories about my incarceration experience, even like my Asian-American identity, you know, just talking about that, that has been such a tool for me to advance in my career. And I wouldn't have been able to do that if I didn't focus on that during being incarcerated, because I was doing so much self reflection.

00;15;06;09 - 00;15;07;19

May

And just like growing.

00;15;09;01 - 00;15;32;08

Jeanne

You work in an organization that's specific to an identity that you have. I work in an organization that specific to an identity I have, and sometimes I feel like, okay, this is work that I care about. This is work that I like, but it's not necessarily the work I have to do just because it's my identity and it's the kind of work I like to do.

00;15;32;09 - 00;15;44;03

Jeanne

I could potentially work for another organization that I care about, but sometimes we end up in these, in these organizations that are about us on some level, right? So how does that work for you?

00;15;45;23 - 00;16;16;28

May

I think, you know, I could, like you mentioned before, I was a criminal justice organizer in a Latino based organization. But I felt like I really needed to bring the criminal justice movement into my identity, which is, you know, Asian-American Pacific Islanders and bring in the work to us. Because I feel like there hasn't been enough organizing with the AAPI community, especially in Arizona.

00;16;17;07 - 00;16;24;18

May

You know, we're like the first one that's promoting civic engagement and building political power. And it's 2020 — I mean

00;16;25;05 - 00;16;33;22

Jeanne

Or 2022. Yeah. Why do you think that is? What do you see that explains that gap?

00;16;34;07 - 00;16;57;10

May

I think I think it's just just recently, you know, the population is growing and people are migrating to Arizona and they are Asian-Americans. So now we're having more, you know, power in numbers so we can do something like this and organize Asian-Americans and Pacific Islanders.

00;16;57;15 - 00;17;22;22

Jeanne

So it's about those population trends, people coming to Arizona. I know that you're not originally from Arizona. You moved from where?

May

Chicago

Jeanne

Which I think actually, I was looking at some numbers, in terms of like net migration Chicago is one of the biggest sources of population growth in Arizona. What was it for you that brought you from Chicago to Arizona?

00;17;23;19 - 00;17;45;06

May

Well, I moved here when I was 20 and I was still in the closet. So I was, you know, really depressed. I had no vision for my future. And I felt like I had to just move somewhere to truly discover who I am and to be open with my, you know, queer identity.

00;17;46;12 - 00;17;59;15

Jeanne

And what was it about where you were, maybe not the location, but where you were in your life, that that seemed like the way to be able to open up, to just relocate?

00;18;00;28 - 00;18;25;22

May

Well, I think in Chicago, a lot of the areas are pretty segregated and everyone stays in their own little bubble. It's hard to get out of the city. And I grew up in the suburbs. I mean I went from, I was born and raised like they would say, like "it's the hood." And then my parents ended up saving enough money to move into the suburbs so I can get a good education.

00;18;26;11 - 00;18;48;06

May

And then when I moved to the suburbs, I saw like, you know, this is like a perfect life. We have all the resources. But I had, like a resentment because, you know, my friends that I left, they were struggling. And then we would go visit my cousins that still lived in the poorer neighborhoods. And, you know, they didn't have the type of opportunity.

00;18;48;14 - 00;19;03;05

May

So I was able to see two perspectives. But the thing about the suburbs is that they're very conservative. No one is open about being queer. So I felt like I really had to leave Chicago.

00;19;03;22 - 00;19;13;02

Jeanne

I see. And then coming to Arizona. Was that something that you were able to find right away, in terms of community that you could open up with?

00;19;13;17 - 00;19;34;06

May

Oh, yes. So I think it was like 2009 and I was like really into computers. So I would, there was this website called Downelink and it was a queer BIPOC, like dating app or website. It was like AOL chats.

00;19;34;10 - 00;19;34;22

Jeanne

Yeah.

00;19;34;28 - 00;19;47;12

May

And I actually met someone that lived in Arizona. And from there, I was able to network and throw, like, huge parties that had, like, over 30 lesbians just hanging out.

00;19;47;16 - 00;19;55;12

Jeanne

Wow. And this is through person to person connections through online things and then building that community around that.

00;19;55;13 - 00;20;03;00

May

Yeah. It all started from the online community. And then I was able to branch out and just meet more and more queer people.

00;20;03;15 - 00;20;34;14

Jeanne

Oh, that's amazing. So you said that you were really into computers, which is a line of conversation I can't skip because I'm a total tech nerd, too. I think 2009 sometimes I look back on as like one of the most exciting times for that in terms of changing trends and online communities. What were some of your early Internet community experiences and what do you see now in terms of the possibility of finding community like that online?

00;20;35;01 - 00;20;38;03

May

Oh, I miss the old online communities.

00;20;38;04 - 00;20;38;21

Jeanne

Yeah.

00;20;38;27 - 00;21;04;28

May

For me, it started when I was, you know, ten, 12 years old in AOL chat rooms. And I remember, you know, staying in those chat rooms and pretending to be like a 15 year old male. And that was like the highlight of my days. But that's when I really, you know, played around with gender and really lived how I felt like I was.

00;21;05;10 - 00;21;30;17

Jeanne

Yeah, I think that's a common experience. Like when people could just message A/S/L and you could decide. Right. And now I think, you know, Facebook created a lot of like real identity kind of policies and that shifted how the Internet works in some ways. Now, I feel like if you go into one of the major social networks, you're really unlikely to make new friends or new connections.

00;21;31;18 - 00;21;46;01

Jeanne

As an organizer, I think a lot of your job, you know, and as someone who runs teams of organizers now, is about making connections. Do you feel like social media and the Internet are a place where that can happen?

00;21;47;09 - 00;22;21;27

May

It is, but the way it's going is, you know, there's data on everyone and it's all about data and where you target your ads.

Jeanne

Okay.

May

Right. With me, you know, I was able to organize the AAPI Vigil, the Unity March through direct messaging. Like because we were all quarantined, you know, I was messaging all my friends or people who have commented on my post or liked my posts, and I was able to meet, or to make real connections that way.

00;22;22;14 - 00;22;34;26

May

But some organizations, they're not doing that, like actually messaging and building these real relationships. They just want to like make the impression on your screen and then that's it.

00;22;36;00 - 00;23;00;06

Jeanne

Yeah, that's a really good point. I think using actual messaging and making actual requests of people is different than just figuring out or can I get the right metrics, or can I get the right ads stats? You mentioned the Unity March. I think I'd like to talk a little bit more about that. This was earlier in the pandemic, right? And what was the process of putting that together like?

00;23;01;14 - 00;23;03;24

May

Oh, it was really stressful.

00;23;04;05 - 00;23;04;15

Jeanne

Yeah.

00;23;04;26 - 00;23;13;03

May

So the date that we decided on doing the Unity March was the same date that the neo-Nazis were rallying in Phoenix.

00;23;13;08 - 00;23;15;00

Jeanne

Okay. And when was this?

00;23;15;07 - 00;23;44;03

May

This was April of 2021.

Jeanne

Okay.

May

So they were coming. We didn't really know how large of a crowd they were bringing. We just knew that people were flying from different states. And we were concerned for the safety of our community, but we also didn't want them to think that, you know, we were scared of them and that, you know, the hate that they're displaying is effective.

00;23;44;12 - 00;23;54;17

May

You know, it's keeping us inside. So up until, like two days before we decided to reschedule the Unity March.

00;23;54;23 - 00;24;04;26

Jeanne

Okay. In response to some of the threats of violence or what was the, what was the deciding factor there?

00;24;05;09 - 00;24;29;22

May

Well, there was a lot of factors. We were scared that there were going to be other groups coming in to antagonize the crowds, whether they were neo-Nazis, I don't want to say Antifa, but we were scared of Antifa at that time, even though, you know, they mean well. But we didn't want any violence to happen and to have, you know.

00;24;29;22 - 00;24;39;14

Jeanne

Right, you didn't want things to escalate.

May

Right. Yeah.

Jeanne

Are those concerns that you're still dealing with in your work of escalation and violence?

00;24;39;14 - 00;25;12;29

May

Yes. I mean, I think just, us trying to protect the elections. You know, there is that fear that, you know, if the election deniers don't like the results, they're going to start something. You know, they carry around guns. The past two rallies that I was that, you know, there was a gun scare and I ended up running from the crowd because someone had shouted like "he's got a gun" or there was a confrontation.

00;25;13;16 - 00;25;19;01

May

So, I mean, the work is definitely getting hard, or harder.

00;25;20;07 - 00;25;59;13

Jeanne

When I talk to people, a lot of these shifts are centered on the pandemic in some way, whether it's additional hate or additional violence or in some cases, really good things. People move, people start new careers. People find ways to come out that they didn't feel like they could before. Do you think that some of the violence that you experience or have to take precautions around is something that's gotten worse during the pandemic and because of the pandemic?

00;25;59;13 - 00;26;03;00

Jeanne

Or do you see that as sort of just a just a parallel thing?

00;26;04;19 - 00;26;34;07

May

The pandemic does have something to do with it. But I think the overall is the climate crisis, which is causing, you know, the economy to not be stable and resources are limited now. So people are going to want to blame, you know, certain people for that. And it always results to people blaming immigrants coming in or, you know, communities of color.

00;26;34;15 - 00;26;36;07

May

And there's just more attention now.

00;26;37;09 - 00;27;20;07

Jeanne

That's something that I think is troubling. You know, you talked about how population growth is allowing for new kinds of organizing and community power building. And you mentioned moving here back around 2009. It's just gotten hotter every year since. Arizona could potentially be a pretty unlivable place if we don't take real climate action. So are you concerned from that perspective about how long you can stay in the state and what it could mean for the kinds of work that you're doing if Arizona turns into more of a climate disaster?

00;27;22;02 - 00;27;52;00

May

Oh, yeah, that is a battle I deal with every day is, you know, what is the future of Arizona? And because we do have a water crisis and just like, you know, it being, getting hotter every day, tensions are going to grow and people are going to start pointing fingers at, you know, the opposite group. And there's just there's just more fight to do here.

00;27;52;07 - 00;28;04;09

May

And I think, you know, I'm going to be here for a while because they're still lives that are affected right now. You know, I'm scared for the future, but right now, there's always going to be a fight.

00;28;04;24 - 00;28;24;06

Jeanne

So for you, a lot of the reason to stay in Arizona is because you want to make things better in Arizona. It's not like you're looking at it and saying this is going to get unlivable, do I need to leave? It's this might get unlivable, shat can I do to continue to live here? Is that an accurate assessment?

00;28;24;22 - 00;28;46;20

May

Yeah, no, I definitely have hope still. I think especially with Gen-Z'ers, like they just get it. And the youth, they understand a lot of people have climate anxiety. They want everyone to work together and come up with solutions. And that's not going to happen if people who organize the community start leaving.

00;28;47;14 - 00;29;06;07

Jeanne

What are some of the things that give you hope when you work with younger people? I know that you have like a fellowship program. What do you see in terms of their perspective and what is it like to work with people in that position and that point in their life?

00;29;07;04 - 00;29;37;20

May

Oh, I think they're just so, they're more empathetic. You know, they can see themselves in other people's shoes and really look into the issues. They also are tech savvy. So, you know, if I just bring up an issue, they're able to research, research it and really follow the science. Where, you know, the older generations, they don't know how to navigate the Internet.

00;29;38;01 - 00;29;39;21

May

Oh, I don't want to say all of them.

00;29;40;15 - 00;30;01;15

Jeanne

I mean, that's fair. Yeah, but I think that's that's true of the experience. Right. There's there's some old people who have been using computers for their entire lives, too. But it's different when you're 20 and the iPod existed when you were born. Right. That that's a different experience.

00;30;01;15 - 00;30;17;26

May

Yeah. And so, yeah, I guess with older people, it is a little harder to get them to even want to research more on an issue because they may be too busy or they're already set in stone with their beliefs.

00;30;18;08 - 00;30;26;15

Jeanne

So is that something that you run into in your work? Do you have those moments of trying to connect to older generations?

00;30;27;22 - 00;30;33;10

May

Our approach is speaking to the youth and having them speak to their family members.

00;30;33;11 - 00;30;33;28

Jeanne

Oh, okay.

00;30;34;05 - 00;30;36;01

May

I think that is the most effective.

00;30;36;07 - 00;30;58;26

Jeanne

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. What do you see as the role of family in a lot of these issues? Because I think, you know, with queer identities, sometimes the family can be a source of a lot of trauma or at least trouble. But there's also a lot of power, I think, in terms of how culture is carried through families.

00;31;00;03 - 00;31;08;03

Jeanne

So in the work that you do, what do you see as the place of the family and how does it how does that play into things?

00;31;08;08 - 00;31;38;07

May

Yeah. So family is the driving factor of why I do this work. I mean, just seeing what my parents went through, working for a manufacturing company and seeing them being exploited for their labor and then realizing, you know, it's part of the bigger picture of how America use immigrants for labor jobs. And that's why, you know, they were allowing so many to come in.

00;31;38;07 - 00;31;49;09

Jeanne

Right.

May

And just through my family's experience, I'm able to really understand what's going on with the whole country.

00;31;50;06 - 00;31;52;27

Jeanne

Are both of your parents immigrants?

00;31;52;29 - 00;31;53;13

May

Yes.

00;31;53;20 - 00;32;10;09

Jeanne

And so as a as a kid of immigrant parents, what was your perception of the people around you like the city that you were in, the schools that you were in? What were some of those experiences like, in kind of a firsthand way?

00;32;11;20 - 00;32;46;13

May

Well, I mean, them being in the labor industry, they were away from the home, you know, often. And that led to like mental health issues because I was the only child. And being an organizer and speaking to the community, I was realizing that a lot of Asian American people had the same experience as me.

Jeanne

I see.

May

And, you know, it's not by coincidence, like, oh, how come all these Asian Americans have these jobs that are like back breakers?

00;32;46;23 - 00;33;10;20

May

Well, they did it on purpose. They allowed people to come from different countries and then put them into these jobs and really didn't give them a good exit plan. You know, right now my parents are working under the table because they were laid off because, you know, physically they can't do the work anymore and they have to figure out what they're going to do for their retirement.

00;33;11;18 - 00;33;16;14

May

And that story is very common within the AAPI community.

00;33;17;16 - 00;33;28;06

Jeanne

And it doesn't seem like there's the resources that that community that your parents are in needs. Those resources, aren't there?

00;33;28;07 - 00;33;30;04

May

No, they don't even speak English, so

00;33;30;06 - 00;33;31;14

Jeanne

Ah yeah.

00;33;32;07 - 00;33;44;12

May

I mean, they're little better off in Chicago because they have more translation services. But in Arizona, it's, it's worse here. And that's why I think the work that we do is really important.

00;33;45;11 - 00;34;08;22

Jeanne

Yeah, it is really important. I think I've spoken with other people about how in the Asian-American community in in Arizona, it can be really difficult to find resources or community centers and that actually the work you're doing is sometimes the first thing people can find where they can actually be around people who are like minded and have similar experiences.

00;34;09;08 - 00;34;36;18

May

Yeah, and that was the whole point of the healing circle, the LGBTQ edition.

Jeanne

Yeah.

May

Like, I felt like I had no support within the AAPI community for being queer. You know, I feel the most judged by Asian-Americans because of what I dealt with with my family. So I wanted to make sure that people had a place to go to talk about the Asian-American identity and also being queer.

00;34;37;08 - 00;34;50;29

Jeanne

Yeah. So that series, you've been doing a series of different healing events, right? And you're bringing in issues like LGBTQ identities. What are some of the other experiences that you're bringing into those spaces?

00;34;51;17 - 00;34;56;00

May

The one we did before was bridging the generational gap.

00;34;56;06 - 00;34;56;17

Jeanne

Okay.

00;34;56;21 - 00;35;14;22

May

So just talking about the family experience and being so different. And then the next one we're doing is coping with climate anxiety.

Jeanne

Okay.

May

And then we also want to do one that focuses on mental health with AANHPI people and, who knows what more we'll do.

00;35;14;23 - 00;35;49;06

Jeanne

Yeah, I love that though. I think everything we've talked about, we've already touched on those things. We've touched on generational relationships and climate change and mental health and LGBT identities, and I think that's how life works. Things aren't silos, right? But a lot of people don't approach the work of organizing outside of a silo. It seems like just the experiences you've had as a person who exists in multiple overlapping spaces is what informs that work.

00;35;49;12 - 00;35;59;27

Jeanne

But I'd be curious to know what your sense is of why maybe things don't gel as well as they potentially could.

00;36;01;01 - 00;36;26;18

May

I mean, the whole point of me putting out the unity march was for cross-cultural collaboration.

Jeanne

Yeah.

May

And I think we have so many organizations that are, you know, indigenous, Latino or Latinx, Black, LGBTQ, but we're not speaking to each other, even though we have the same enemy.

00;36;27;03 - 00;36;27;14

Jeanne

Right.

00;36;28;06 - 00;36;53;18

May

You know, and if we all were to come together, we would be we would be able to move mountains. But, you know, back in the sixties, they had the Third World Liberation Front, and that was destroyed because they came up with the model minority myth and basically pitted Asians and black people against each other. And we're constantly, I mean, I'm not saying we're —

00;36;54;11 - 00;37;12;29

Jeanne

It's okay. I don't think it's like dire. I don't think it's like people can't talk to each other. From my perspective, the Unity March was a big success. Do you think that that's something that's going to keep getting better? Is that something that you're seeing moving forward? Is that ability to collaborate and talk to each other?

00;37;13;11 - 00;37;38;15

May

Yeah, I would love to do more unity marches. I think maybe what I'm saying with the other organizations is the way that the system is, it ends up being white people who are in charge with the funding. So we are always tiptoeing around, like the real issues. And when we do speak up, they tend to kind of like put it on the backburner.

00;37;39;03 - 00;38;02;03

Jeanne

Yeah, there's a way things get prioritized based on funding decisions and sometimes just a fear of conflict that I think does end up with worse outcomes, like you're talking about. I know that we've talked in the past about the fact that the work you're doing is unique and that attracts funders who wouldn't previously be engaging that work.

00;38;02;03 - 00;38;18;00

Jeanne

So it seems like maybe that is a trend that is going to happen where some of the systems of control and dependency can maybe break down and make room for more of the kind of work that you're promoting.

00;38;19;19 - 00;38;31;25

May

Yeah, I think it is going in that direction. More funders are looking for work that is promoting, you know, marginalized communities and communities of color. So that's a good thing.

00;38;32;27 - 00;38;59;13

Jeanne

You know, it's a really specific choice to say, I'm going to go into nonprofit work and advocacy work where things maybe aren't always stable, the funding isn't stable, sometimes the organizations aren't stable. And yet I know basically everyone that works in this field goes through some kind of crisis like that, maybe every couple of years, and then says, okay, let me start over again.

00;38;59;17 - 00;39;18;09

Jeanne

Let me keep doing this. I think I have a really good sense after talking to you and just knowing you, what keeps you going. But just from like a psychological standpoint, that cycle of chaos, I don't get why it doesn't push us out of the work. What is it that.

00;39;18;09 - 00;39;19;00

May

We love it!

00;39;19;23 - 00;39;20;02

Jeanne

Yeah.

00;39;20;07 - 00;39;21;11

May

We're chaos fiends!

00;39;23;08 - 00;39;40;27

Jeanne

What is it then that makes it worth it for you to push through some of those difficult things about funding and prioritization and then just say, yeah, okay, dust myself off, pick myself up, get back at it.

00;39;42;00 - 00;40;07;00

May

I mean, I did go to college to study philosophy and I was always interested in like governance and just like how society should be, you know? And I feel like with community organizing, that's a way of philosophers to share their wisdom and knowledge and to kind of share that vision of a society that they would want to be a part of.

00;40;07;22 - 00;40;30;13

Jeanne

For you, is there something that grounds you? Because that's not something that can just happen. Right? Like you're dealing with the constraints of society and the constraints of the nonprofit model and saying, here's the better vision, let's make it work. I think that that's a way to have a more sustainable and healthy organization and eventually a more sustainable and healthy society.

00;40;30;25 - 00;40;37;09

Jeanne

But it's a long process and it's kind of a painful process. So what keeps you grounded through that?

00;40;38;18 - 00;41;03;10

May

It is definitely a long process, but we do see, you know, improvements in society. I think if you look at more progressive states, they're doing some amazing things like what, Pennsylvania with criminal justice reform, you know, just like people who are running for attorney general or county attorney.

00;41;03;13 - 00;41;03;26

Jeanne

Yeah.

00;41;04;05 - 00;41;10;12

May

Those people share the vision and they're almost in the seat of power to change things.

00;41;10;18 - 00;41;25;19

Jeanne

Yeah. So you're able to see, here's the victory that can happen this year and see how that lines up with victories that can happen the year after and ten years from now. And that's what keeps you going?

00;41;25;25 - 00;41;48;18

May

Yeah. And I mean, I'm not going to lie, like, Bernie Sanders, he really energized me. And I think a lot of people, he you know, really started this workers movement and it really took one person and one campaign to, you know, rock the boat for corporations.

00;41;48;19 - 00;42;05;15

Jeanne

Yeah, seriously. And I think, you know, what I've seen is, is that campaign hasn't been successful in itself, but more and more campaigns are now using the tactics and the messages from the Sanders campaign.

00;42;05;24 - 00;42;15;10

May

Yeah, yeah. As long as you put it out there, someone might get inspired and end up using your stuff as their own. Which is good!

00;42;15;17 - 00;42;27;14

Jeanne

It is. Do you see that that's happening with your work? You're putting a lot of cool ideas out there. You're putting a lot of cool projects and programs and events out. Are you seeing that kind of uptake?

00;42;28;21 - 00;42;56;29

May

I think with us, I mean, it's mutual. I mean, I get inspired by a lot. Like, I mean, just being a part of Puente for that amount of time, I was able to see how the Latino community organized to stop SB 1070 and we're using their tools or their like template and kind of like putting it into our new AAPI organization.

00;42;57;11 - 00;43;12;19

May

So and then same with like, you know a lot of people, they were inspired by the civil rights movement and learning how, you know, the tactics and strategies they did. We're still doing that in 2022. I mean, not much has changed.

00;43;13;28 - 00;43;40;08

Jeanne

Right. I really like that historical approach to the work. You were talking about movements that fell apart and looking at why they fell apart and how to repair that and rebuild. You have a really thoughtful and forward thinking approach to the work that I really appreciate. I think maybe this is a good place to close, but do you have anything coming up with your organization that you want to promote?

00;43;40;28 - 00;43;49;10

May

Well, on September 24th, we are organizing a music festival called Phochella.

00;43;50;07 - 00;43;50;22

Jeanne

Nice.

00;43;51;11 - 00;44;03;23

May

The flier hasn't come out yet, but we're working with Fuerte Arts Movement and then a couple other organizations. But more information to be announced.

00;44;04;10 - 00;44;04;24

Jeanne

Nice, okay.

00;44;04;24 - 00;44;05;07

May

To be determined.

00;44;05;20 - 00;44;08;13

Jeanne

Well, maybe when I publish this I'll be able to put a link in. That sounds really exciting.

00;44;08;13 - 00;44;10;11

May

Yeah, it'll be cool.

00;44;10;29 - 00;44;12;27

Jeanne

All right. Well, thanks for recording with me today.

00;44;12;29 - 00;44;44;21

May

Yeah, well, one last thing. I mean, what I truly believe, what really drives me in doing this work is, I think if we, if we liberate marginalized communities in America, then that will domino into liberating the whole world. And that, that's going to, it needs to be done with the climate crisis, and we need to start fighting it as a whole planet rather than, you know, fighting for resources and all that.

00;44;44;24 - 00;44;44;29

Jeanne

Yes.

00;44;46;01 - 00;45;15;14

Jeanne

I love that. I love that. Thank you. And thanks again to May Tiwamangkala for joining me on this episode of The Arizona Equals Conversation. If you'd like to be a guest on a future episode of the podcast, or if you want to dove into the archives of past episodes, just visit EqualityArizona.org/stories. Thanks for listening. And don't forget to tune in next Wednesday.

In today’s episode, we talk with K.M. Bell, a staff attorney for the ACLU of Arizona and a long-time civil rights advocate. Topics include the importance and challenges of networking, the realities of a career as an attorney, the value of travel, and some of the daily choices queer professionals face.

Additional context for the conversation

* The ACLU of Arizona

* The Bridge Improv Theater

* The Marijuana Policy Project

* Alan Dershowitz

* Wizards of the Coast: Dungeons & Dragons

* Grover Norquist: My first Burning Man

* The National LGBTQ+ Bar Association

Arizona Equals is a conversational interview podcast rooted in the idea that stories have power. Each episode, we sit down with an LGBTQ+ person living in Arizona to talk about their community ties and experiences in the state. Visit our website to listen to the full archive or to sign up to be a guest on a future episode of the podcast.

Full Transcript

00;00;00;21 - 00;00;09;19

Jeanne

Hi. Thanks for listening to the Arizona Equals Conversation. My name is Jeanne Woodbury and I'm the policy and communications director for Equality Arizona.

00;00;11;03 - 00;00;37;21

Jeanne

Arizona Equals is an interview podcast rooted in the idea that stories have power. Each week I sit down with an LGBTQ+ person living in Arizona and talk with them about their communities and the experiences they've had in the state. Today on the show, I talk with K.M. Bell a staff attorney for the ACLU of Arizona. Just recently, we hosted a town hall with K.M. about the Maricopa County attorney election.

00;00;38;04 - 00;01;01;11

Jeanne

Like all of K.M.'s work, I found it thoughtful, thorough and informative, and I'd encourage everyone to check out the recording of the Town Hall, which you can find on our website at equalityarizona.org/events-archive. If you're looking for other ways to get involved with Equality Arizona, our monthly Spectrum Academy event is this Saturday, August 27th.

00;01;02;05 - 00;01;27;00

Jeanne

You can sign up today at equalityarizona.org/events. In our conversation, K.M. and I get pretty into the weeds and we also cover a lot of ground. From Alan Dershowitz to Burning Man. So I've provided a lot of links for additional context in the shownotes. One of my favorite parts of the conversation was our discussion about code switching and about picking our battles as queer professionals.

00;01;27;10 - 00;01;47;24

Jeanne

But I don't want to get ahead of myself. So for now, I'll let K.M. introduce themselves and get the conversation started.

00;01;52;10 - 00;02;22;11

K.M.

I am K.M. Bell. I use they/them pronouns. I'm a staff attorney at the ACLU of Arizona. Although I should say at the outset that any opinions expressed in this podcast are mine alone and do not represent the views of the ACLU or any other organization I'm affiliated with. Outside of work, I perform occasionally as an improv comedian and a theater in Tempe called The Bridge, and also enjoy yoga and playing with my cat.

00;02;23;01 - 00;02;24;22

Jeanne

Wonderful. Thanks for being on the show.

00;02;25;06 - 00;02;25;29

K.M.

Thanks for having me.

00;02;26;10 - 00;02;48;08

Jeanne

I saw that you changed your title recently in your job, so I wanted to congratulate you on that and also ask. We had worked together at the Capitol. That's not always a fun time going to those committee meetings and listening to what can feel like nonsense for hours. Are you transitioning away from that kind of work and what are you going to be doing now?

00;02;48;29 - 00;03;13;14

K.M.

I am. Yeah. I started my career as a judicial clerk and then as a civil and criminal defense litigator on the East Coast in Maryland. And then I started doing policy work because I wanted to keep people out of my office in the first place. So for several years, I worked to reform our country's marijuana or more properly, cannabis laws.

00;03;14;02 - 00;03;35;27

K.M.

And that was a great experience it is such a common way that people get caught up in the criminal justice system. And the criminal justice system is quite biased against black people. LGBT people are also very overrepresented in the criminal justice system. And as you mentioned, I was doing lobbying here in the state of Arizona and I focused on criminal justice reform.

00;03;36;14 - 00;03;53;08

K.M.

I really wanted to get back to litigation and the sort of highest and best use of my legal training. So I'm very excited to have the opportunity to do that with the ACLU and hopefully be able to challenge some unconstitutional laws.

00;03;54;03 - 00;04;04;22

Jeanne

When you got started in that kind of policy work around cannabis laws, was that something you were doing while you were still on the East Coast in Maryland, or did you come here to start that work?

00;04;06;00 - 00;04;30;27

K.M.

Well, I was working for a national organization called the Marijuana Policy Project. So that organization works across all of the states. At one point I was covering a dozen different states, and with registered lobbyists in four of those, most actively in Maryland and New Jersey, which as you can imagine, the political scene there is a bit different than what we have here in Arizona.

00;04;30;27 - 00;04;31;19

Jeanne

It's a little.

00;04;31;19 - 00;04;48;24

K.M.

Just a little. So I was doing state level lobbying, but on a narrow band of issues across a bunch of states. Whereas of course, the ACLU works on a lot of different issues and at the state affiliate in one state. So it's sort of the inverse of what I had been doing before.

00;04;48;29 - 00;05;09;28

Jeanne

Right. I think I feel a little ill equipped to ask questions about like, what's the career path of someone who gets a law degree and does a clerkship? I think I would really appreciate it. And probably listeners like me might appreciate, like what is that path look like and kind of like a general way and what did it look like for you?

00;05;10;21 - 00;05;35;14

K.M.

I actually spoke to a master's in social work class here in Arizona, specifically about the career track to working in policy. And I have talked to a number of people out of going to law school who don't actually want to practice law, as you know, because I believe you are also not an attorney. You can be a lobbyist without being a lawyer.

00;05;35;20 - 00;06;09;22

K.M.

You can't be a litigator without being a lawyer. So there's that consideration. I had the misfortune of finishing my law school and my clerkship in 2008 when the economy tanked. And so finding any job was quite challenging at that point. I always tell people to really give some thought to exactly what it is they want to do and reach out to folks who are in that field.

00;06;10;18 - 00;06;43;17

K.M.

They want to lobby on LGBT issues, and so they reach out to you, you know, and have a conversation with people who are working in the field, because the reality of what it's like is not necessarily what you imagine. And it's really good and important to develop a network early on, which I did not do because I graduated from law school when I was only 23, having only ever worked like summers waiting tables in a restaurant.

00;06;44;02 - 00;07;00;05

K.M.

So I don't advise coming out of law school with that little idea of how their professional working world works. So if anything, I would tell them to learn from my perhaps errors.

00;07;01;06 - 00;07;23;25

Jeanne

So what was the decision then? I mean, that's I think people I've met who have gone into law school, usually it's later, at least by a few years in their lives. And it can be kind of a long process of preparing for that. It seems like you were able to get into that really quickly. So what was your kind of thought process or intention behind that?

00;07;24;06 - 00;07;27;05

K.M.

I knew I wanted to work at the ACLU when I was 13 years old.

00;07;27;15 - 00;07;29;26

Jeanne

Oh, that's amazing. It was like a childhood dream.

00;07;30;14 - 00;07;53;23

K.M.

Yeah, I am pretty sure that I was seven. I — very small when somebody asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up and I thought I was going to say like ballerina or something. And I said, Supreme Court Justice. So even my parents were like, What? I think part of it honestly was when I was in middle school was when the O.J. trial was happening.

00;07;54;15 - 00;08;41;29

K.M.

And so there was a tremendous amount of national interest and attention to the criminal justice system and to jury trials that captured a lot of people's imaginations. And I was also watching a television show about defense attorneys called The Practice. It used to be a little more balanced than just law and order, which is, of course, about prosecutors and the police and is not terribly realistic, as I'm sure will not be shocking to your listeners to hear, not just unrealistic in terms of of some of its portrayals of what the lawyers do substantively, but also just procedurally.

00;08;41;29 - 00;09;08;20

K.M.

Like I can tell you, I've never in my life walked down a hallway and dramatically handed the prosecutor a blue piece of paper. That is not how that happens. What happens is you stand in line at the clerk's office and a bored looking person stares at you while you put some paperwork into a stamping machine that stamps it and then put it into like a little mail basket, which is much less exciting for TV viewers to watch.

00;09;08;21 - 00;09;27;12

Jeanne

Oh, absolutely. So you had that dream as like a seven year old and then you had a much more specific plan as a 13 year old to work for the ACLU. Where do you get those ideas? And then like before you even go to college, what's the way that you're able to kind of actualize on those ideas?

00;09;28;06 - 00;09;52;21

K.M.

So Harvard Law School put out a recommended pre-law reading list, which I started on when I was in middle school. I read probably half a dozen books by Alan Dershowitz, who was on O.J. Simpson's dream team and was also at one time associated with the ACLU. This was long before he was arguably an apologist for torture for the Bush administration.

00;09;53;15 - 00;10;18;08

K.M.

And part of why I don't look up to people anymore, but I was a big fan. I was a big fan of him when I was in middle school. The only thing you have to do to get into law school is to get good grades in college. And actually, it doesn't matter what your major is, unlike medical school, where obviously you need to like know some biology and chemistry and things like that before you get there.

00;10;18;25 - 00;10;42;13

K.M.

So I majored in art history because I liked art history and I already knew I was going to law school and I got pretty decent grades. Not as good of grades as I got in high school or in law school because I had a lot of fun in college, but sufficient to get me into law school. I went to the University of North Carolina and my parents lived there.

00;10;42;13 - 00;10;53;18

K.M.

And so as a result of that, I got in-state tuition, which is a great deal. Then you don't have to rely on fulfilling the requirements of public interest loan repayment programs.

00;10;53;29 - 00;11;01;02

Jeanne

Right. I'm a little familiar with that. That's just the idea of some amount of service.

00;11;01;02 - 00;11;17;17

K.M.

Yeah. If you work for I think it's like ten years for a certain government or public interest jobs, you can get your your loans forgiven, but there are certain requirements and you have to work at a nonprofit that meets those requirements.

00;11;17;25 - 00;11;18;07

Jeanne

Right.

00;11;18;07 - 00;11;25;27

K.M.

So I was able to actually just pay off my loans because I went to a state school rather than a private school where I would have had three times as much debt.

00;11;26;02 - 00;11;26;13

Jeanne

Yeah.

00;11;26;25 - 00;12;00;12

K.M.

Law schools are cash cows for a lot of universities. Unlike other graduate programs, we don't have T.A. positions. So you can't work to earn anything off your tuition. You just pay it all. And there are like something like 150 law schools in the country of, in my opinion, wildly varying degrees of quality. They don't fail people at out like they used to because I think they they want the tuition money, frankly.

00;12;00;17 - 00;12;10;23

Jeanne

It sounds like maybe there was like a little bit of a process of disillusionment then going through the actual machine and not delivering the wonderful blue paper in a dramatic way.

00;12;11;07 - 00;12;42;04

K.M.

Oh, yeah. Well, I believed that if I worked hard and I was smart, that I would get a good job following law school. And that is at least post 2008 recession. Not true universally. So there was certainly some disillusionment with job hunting during what they're now calling the Great Recession and then again during COVID. Yeah, so absolutely. I think that's true.

00;12;42;05 - 00;12;56;19

K.M.

The the employment statistics that they give you when you apply for law school are not entirely accurate. And in fact, a lot of lawyers don't make a lot of money during the recession. There were folks working at Starbucks to get health insurance.

00;12;57;17 - 00;13;12;21

Jeanne

Well, I know a lot of trans people who have specifically said, I have this advanced degree, I'm going to go work at Starbucks to get benefits because I can't get trans inclusive care from other jobs. So sadly, kind of a common reality.

00;13;13;23 - 00;13;25;02

K.M.

Yeah. The ACLU of Arizona has a case right now about whether or not the university health plan is required to cover gender affirming care.

00;13;25;03 - 00;13;26;27

Jeanne

So this is in Arizona?

00;13;26;29 - 00;13;27;10

K.M.

Yes.

00;13;27;20 - 00;13;40;19

Jeanne

Okay. Oh, that's fascinating. How does that how does something like that come about? And then I don't know. It doesn't sound like you're involved in that one. But now that you're litigating again, how does that kind of process unfold?

00;13;41;24 - 00;14;12;05

K.M.

The ACLU in a very general level, gets cases from a few different methods. We have an intake form on our website of sometimes just the general public reaching out to us to let us know of a legal issue that they're facing. Sometimes the legislature does something that we decide we want to challenge right away. So there's a there's a number of different ways things come to our attention.

00;14;12;06 - 00;14;30;29

K.M.

Also, other organizations that we work with that are out in the community working with impacted individuals like Equality Arizona or HRC or Saga, those different or partner organizations that might bring something to us and say, Hey, somebody that we work with is having this issue.

00;14;32;10 - 00;14;52;13

Jeanne

I've asked for your insight on things in the past, and what you've given me has always been amazing, super thorough. And I've I've told people about this and I said, I've said to them, you know, like K.M. is like the biggest law nerd I have ever met. And that's that saying something in my line of work and the people I'm around.

00;14;52;13 - 00;15;04;05

Jeanne

But I know that you're also just a nerd. I'm not trying to be cruel, but you mentioned that you do improv. How did you get into that? As a as a hobby.

00;15;04;25 - 00;15;08;20

K.M.

So I thought you were going to ask me about Dungeons and Dragons. And we can go there too.

00;15;08;21 - 00;15;09;24

Jeanne

We can go there, too.

00;15;10;20 - 00;15;40;02

K.M.

I started doing improv when I was 16 years old at the local comedy Sports, which is a short form improv franchise. They have them in cities all across the country. I went to a show, I really enjoyed it. I started taking classes there and then started performing. I was the youngest person in the group and one of the only quote unquote girls that was there.

00;15;41;20 - 00;16;11;11

K.M.

This was before women were funny. This was before Tina Fey and Amy Poehler. And a lot of the not that women in comedy still don't have a difficult time, but things have gotten much better than they were over 20 years ago when I was 16. So. So that has been great progress to see. I did improv for a few years and then it's been off and on over, over many years.

00;16;11;11 - 00;16;32;10

K.M.

So it had been a long time before I decided to get back into it again. I will say it is great training if you want to be a trial lawyer or a lobbyist. People ask me sometimes I like, Aren't you nervous to get on stage in front of all those people? And I'm like, Look, if I bleep this up. No one's going to prison. This is easy.

00;16;33;12 - 00;16;48;13

Jeanne

How was that then? You know, I think youth as well as gender can also be a thing that disadvantages you in a situation like that where you're trying to get people to take you seriously. I mean, even if you're trying to get them to laugh at you on some of what you're trying to get them to take you seriously.

00;16;48;16 - 00;16;54;22

Jeanne

How did you deal with that? Or did you run into a lot of problems as a young and then female person?

00;16;55;00 - 00;17;32;12

K.M.

I mean, thankfully, I was never sexually harassed, at least so there's that. I will say I was relegated to the matinee shows at the theater that I started at, and there was another theater and it owned by the same person in a different town, like an hour away that was run by a husband wife team. So there was a woman involved in running and she would put me in mainstage shows, so I would drive an hour each way to go over to that theater. So I had the chance to perform at a higher level, and I do think that there was some, you know, gender at play there.

00;17;33;07 - 00;17;37;26

Jeanne

And then getting back into it. How recently did you get back into improv?

00;17;38;06 - 00;17;46;06

K.M.

Well, since I moved to Arizona, which was during the pandemic, so not a terribly long time actually.

00;17;46;17 - 00;18;08;03

Jeanne

Yeah, that's I think, a really interesting thing that I when I've talked to people, those kind of two moments that you've mentioned, the recession and then the pandemic always highlight in terms of, you know, major life moments. I've talked to people who have graduated right at the beginning of the recession and come out during the pandemic or move during the pandemic.

00;18;08;22 - 00;18;17;05

Jeanne

I think moving during the pandemic is something that happened to a lot of people, but it's a really interesting decision. What was behind your move?

00;18;17;27 - 00;18;59;29

K.M.

So I was in a, suffice to say, non-career track job overseas when the pandemic hit, which wouldn't have been a big deal. Except then I had a job during the pandemic, so I came back from the excursion a little early and was back in the D.C. area, which is where I'm from, living with some friends riding out the waves of COVID and looking for a job online. It was very odd because you can't do traditional networking right when everyone's stuck at home. So.

00;19;01;03 - 00;19;03;16

Jeanne

So just through an online job search you found.

00;19;03;20 - 00;19;47;29

K.M.

I found the previous role that I had at the ACLU of Arizona. And I had been out here before when I was doing the van life thing. And traveling around the country. At some point I realized I'd been to Japan but never been to New Mexico, which was kind of silly. So I decided to move into a truck and travel around and stay with different friends and go to some national parks and go camping and check out more of the United States. And so I came to Arizona, loved the Sonoran Desert, gets absolutely beautiful here. So I had already in fact, I was actually in the state when I got the job.

00;19;48;15 - 00;19;54;00

Jeanne

Oh, fascinating. Was this during the pandemic that you were traveling around or. That was that was previous.

00;19;54;01 - 00;19;55;07

K.M.

This was the before time.

00;19;55;07 - 00;19;58;22

Jeanne

Okay. How long did you do that?

00;19;59;22 - 00;20;11;25

K.M.

A little over a year altogether. Was broken up by some other things. I went to South Africa for a few months, so I've been really lucky to be able to do as much traveling as I as I have.

00;20;12;06 - 00;20;18;29

Jeanne

Sounds like you've actually traveled quite a bit internationally also. Is that through work or just your own interest?

00;20;19;00 - 00;20;49;28

K.M.

Oh, no. So I got quasi-laid off of a job and took what was supposed to be the down payment on a house in Baltimore and backpacked around the world for a year and a half. So essentially I took like a belated gap year when I was like 29, which is amazing. So I went to Australia, Southeast Asia, Central and South America on that trip, and I've done some other travel as well.

00;20;49;28 - 00;21;19;19

K.M.

I did a semester abroad in law school. So for folks that are able to do that, oftentimes the flight is the most expensive part of the journey. And then if you're able to go to a more affordable place, particularly somewhere where there's a good exchange rate, can really explore a different culture. And it opens up a lot of insights. I think, to interact with a culture that's so different from your own.

00;21;20;26 - 00;21;30;05

Jeanne

Do you feel like that's one of the biggest things you get out of travel is connecting to different communities or cultures in the places you go?

00;21;30;05 - 00;21;34;03

K.M.

I also am an avid scuba diver.

00;21;34;23 - 00;21;35;14

Jeanne

Oh, fascinating.

00;21;36;01 - 00;21;39;26

K.M.

So not a culture, but definitely another world down there.

00;21;39;26 - 00;21;40;25

Jeanne

Yeah.

00;21;40;25 - 00;21;53;26

K.M.

And it's fascinating how strange some of the creatures that live under the ocean are and how little we know about them compared to even the they say we know more about the surface of the moon than the bottom of the ocean, right?

00;21;54;04 - 00;22;18;13

Jeanne

Yeah, I've heard about that. I feel like this is just a never ending series of things to learn about your life. It's kind of amazing. And now you're here in Arizona. You did travel here. It does sound like it was an interesting part of your travels, but on some level, this doesn't really fit with a lot of the rest of the things. How has that been for you being here for kind of now an extended period of time?

00;22;18;13 - 00;22;36;28

K.M.

It has been quite the culture shock, particularly given that D.C., according to a chart I saw in The Economist once, is the second most liberal city in the United States after San Francisco. So it was a big change.

00;22;37;07 - 00;22;37;16

Jeanne

Yeah.

00;22;38;01 - 00;22;48;07

K.M.

Coming here, I like to joke that there was a paperwork snafu and somehow I didn't get my gun when I crossed the border. So somebody should file a complaint.

00;22;48;07 - 00;22;49;14

Jeanne

Somebody's got to look into that.

00;22;49;25 - 00;23;01;23

K.M.

Yeah. And moving during the pandemic, I'm sure, has been a challenge for anybody doing that, particularly as a single adult.

00;23;02;13 - 00;23;02;22

Jeanne

Yeah.

00;23;03;12 - 00;23;17;23

K.M.

With folks being, you know, in their bubbles or whatever you want to, however you want to describe that. So it's certainly been interesting. In fact, you know, it was months of work before I even met all of my colleagues.

00;23;18;15 - 00;23;41;09

Jeanne

That is an experience I've had to I started working at Equality Arizona during the pandemic, and I think it was six months before I met anyone in person, like you were saying. Also moving as a single adult, everyone's kind of cloistered away, especially earlier in the pandemic. Were you able to find community right away or is that something that took a lot of time?

00;23;41;09 - 00;23;53;05

Jeanne

I know now you have, like you said, D&D that you do. You've got the improv that you've been doing. Were those the main ways you found kind of outside of work community to connect to or.

00;23;53;28 - 00;24;34;04

K.M.

Most of the Dungeons and Dragons and I'm playing is actually online. So people from different parts of the country actually and that was something that I got interested in during the pandemic and it certainly was a huge benefit to me to have that escapism during the pandemic into this silly fantasy world, but also to be able to connect with people in different places through something and make the online zoom, socializing more fun than just sitting, you know, being ahead in a box yet again.

00;24;34;04 - 00;25;11;06

Jeanne

Right. It's something that's actually collaborative and creative. I've talked to a lot of people about their like online experience. The pandemic is a big part of that. It's also something I've talked about with people who are neurodivergent and they find community online more easily and then queer people where I think, you know, like me for example, I probably met most of the first trans people I ever met through Twitter and then now D&D, which I think is great as just like an online phenomenon, which I hadn't even thought of, I kind of picture like you go over to someone's house and you get the table and you fill out the sheets and everything.

00;25;11;18 - 00;25;39;06

K.M.

That is the traditional way I will say that since Wizards of the Coast bought the rights to the game and especially since more recently, they've been trying very hard to address some of the historical issues with Dungeons and Dragons and concerns about misogyny and racism and things like that. Shocking, I know, in a in a fantasy.

00;25;39;12 - 00;25;40;07

Jeanne

Unfortunately.

00;25;41;17 - 00;26;13;09

K.M.

So that has been evolving. And the D&D community as a whole has been evolving a lot. And there has been a lot of new interest recently, I think with the pandemic and everything, you know, finding community is, is certainly a challenge. Um, I can't say that I've completely solved that riddle. If I had, I'd probably be a millionaire consultant or something.

00;26;13;09 - 00;26;34;23

Jeanne

Right. There's no real answer, I think. But it does seem like with D&D it's gotten a lot more diverse. With comedy, clearly, it's gotten a lot more diverse. I think you were talking about that a little bit. Um, both of those things. I think historically people would have the impression of like, okay, well, this is just like a bunch of white guys.

00;26;34;23 - 00;26;51;15

K.M.

All of my hobbies are hilariously, hilariously white. We haven't gotten to Burning Man yet, but that could go on that list too, of things that are actively trying to diversify their community.

00;26;51;27 - 00;26;58;22

Jeanne

I'd love to hear about that. Um, Burning Man, it's not something I've ever gotten to talk about with anyone who's actually been. So I — What was your experience?

00;26;58;22 - 00;27;27;21

K.M.

So I guess I have to give the disclaimer again that I don't in any way represent their views either. So I started going to I started going to burner events in 2009 and really loved the local DC community. The first time I went to Burning Man, it was disaster. I tried to like go to a local event telling you what to expect and read the packing lists and all that stuff.

00;27;27;21 - 00;27;58;05

K.M.

But I still didn't pack the right things or and it was really challenging for me to put myself out there trying to meet new people to that extent for that extended of a period of time, because it's a week long event and I am a naturally shy person who has fought tooth and nail very hard for many years against that. So I've come a long way, even since since 2010 was the first time that I went. But it was rough. By Thursday I was like in tears.

00;27;58;05 - 00;27;58;20

Jeanne

Oh no.

00;27;58;27 - 00;28;16;06

K.M.

So it was really the local DC community that kept me engaged. And I got very involved in that. At one point I was on the board for a nonprofit that throws a couple of the regional East Coast mini versions of the event. I actually helped found one of those.

00;28;16;06 - 00;28;16;26

Jeanne

Oh wow.

00;28;16;26 - 00;28;24;03

K.M.

So yeah, I will be I will be going this year. I now work the event.

00;28;24;18 - 00;28;25;00

Jeanne

Okay.

00;28;25;00 - 00;28;34;21

K.M.

So I work harder on my vacation or maybe I shouldn't say that on a podcast. I work as hard on my vacation as I do in real life.

00;28;34;21 - 00;28;43;06

Jeanne

So I am just mathematically trying to figure out how all of your life fits into all of your lives.

00;28;43;17 - 00;29;31;29

K.M.

Well, it's funny because Burning Man used to have something of a reputation. I think it's way more mainstream now, particularly since there was an Art of Burning Man exhibit in Washington, DC that took over an entire museum at the Smithsonian, the Renwick Gallery. And that was the tipping point, I think, for, okay, this is a mainstream thing now, Grover Norquist wrote probably the best article I've ever seen in mainstream press about Burning Man, which I have said to his face. And for your listeners who don't know Grover Norquist as a very right wing political person, yeah, you can Google it for more information.

00;29;31;29 - 00;29;33;29

Jeanne

I'll put a link in the podcast show notes.

00;29;34;26 - 00;29;42;14

K.M.

So I guess what I'm getting at is I used to think of myself as as more of a superman Clark Kent person.

00;29;42;29 - 00;29;43;07

Jeanne

Yeah.

00;29;43;23 - 00;29;53;12

K.M.

Than I do now where I think that those things have come together a bit more. I'm just myself.

00;29;53;12 - 00;30;07;25

Jeanne

Yeah, I think that's, you know, not something I'm trying to push on, but I just love the whole picture of that and I get kind of that impulse of there's this side of me and there's this side of me, and I go into the phone booth and emerge. But.

00;30;08;09 - 00;30;37;24

K.M.

I think we all have that right. Like everybody is a little bit of a different person at work than they are with their spouse or they are with their friends that they've known since they were in high school or whatever the case may be. Everybody code switches to some extent. Yeah, some of us more so than others, particularly when you have a job like going into a courtroom.

00;30;38;10 - 00;31;03;28

Jeanne

Right. Do you find that your code switching between all of these things on on different levels like moving between, you know, you mentioned like the difference between getting up on stage and getting up in front of a judge or getting up in front of a committee of legislators. Those are all completely different modes of of speech and presentation. Do you feel that that's like a skill you have to work on?

00;31;03;28 - 00;31;32;17

K.M.

I think arguing to a court is definitely a skill that you have to work on. It is the pinnacle of being an attorney. I think to do oral appellate argument in front of what we call a hot bench, which means they're firing questions at you. If you've ever listened to a Supreme Court argument. And it's a tremendous rush and it's a lot of fun, but it is a very intense and very specific mode of communication.

00;31;32;17 - 00;31;32;27

Jeanne

Yeah.

00;31;33;26 - 00;32;02;08

K.M.

I think when talking to clients, I try, I try to treat people like people as opposed to being is some folks are going to be just very stiff and formal and that's how they present and that's fine. But I think I find I personally find it more effective to be as real as I can.

00;32;02;08 - 00;32;24;11

Jeanne

I think something I'm trying to understand is as a person who's in a lot of different spaces, do you feel that you get to bring everything you want to bring to those spaces or that kind of on the inverse of that, that some of those things lets you have the things that you want.

00;32;24;11 - 00;33;33;01

K.M.

I certainly have to pick my battles as a professional, particularly as a professional queer person. Perfect example. When I showed up to get sworn in, the judge was very confused and referred to me, I believe, as he. And then she and then he again clearly not sure what the appropriate pronouns were. And I could have stopped the swearing in with multiple attorneys and explained they them pronouns to the federal judge I chose not to in that moment. Yeah, there are certainly other times in dealing with attorneys in my career where it's come up, where I've said something at a meeting or something else, and then a man has said the exact same thing and then suddenly it's been a good idea. Right? It is exceptionally frustrating.

00;33;33;01 - 00;33;45;28

K.M.

There are times when it's worth pointing that out and then there are times when, quite frankly, if the group of opponents now thinks that your idea is a good one, you just shut up and move forward.

00;33;45;28 - 00;34;46;16

Jeanne

Oh yeah, right. I think it's difficult with pronouns. I deal with this. I don't use they them pronouns, but I don't have a presentation that leads people to think, Oh, here's an easy gender choice, right? When it comes to pronouns. And most of the time I don't like to introduce myself with my pronouns either, because I know that a lot of the time it's not going to be the conversation I want to have in that moment. I don't want to focus on, Well, you're not getting my pronouns right. But at the same time, if that's your entire professional life of people getting your pronouns wrong, and especially if you use they them pronouns, that's just going to be a daily reality of you kind of have to pick if it's going to be useful and how often you're going to see that person. And frankly, I think it can be kind of tiring, but it's the you know, the easy choice can just be to say, how am I going to deal with it? And then that feels kind of like a defeat, or at least to me. How do you see that?

00;34;48;00 - 00;35;48;05

K.M.

Yeah, it's funny, I got correctly gendered once the entire legislative session at the last Senate Judiciary hearing, and it was because I had never made a scene because. Also, you only get a minute and a half to speak, as you know, and I'm not going to spend that minute explaining my pronouns. To, quite frankly, a lot of people who don't care. I had had a longer conversation with one of the senators on the committee and had expressed that what my gender identity actually was. And as a result of that, Senator, kids are use the correct pronoun to refer to me once in a hearing, which I greatly appreciated. It's a hard line. I think this is something that I had already dealt with as a young female attorney.

00;35;48;21 - 00;36;25;20

K.M.

When you're dealing with sexual harassment or, you know, inappropriate comments, whether they rise to the official level of legal sexual harassment or not, but inappropriate comments ignoring you, what you have to say, as I already alluded to and in those situations as well, to a certain extent, you feel like you have to pick your battles. At the same time, you have an obligation to the folks coming after you to try to leave the profession and society better than you found it. So it's a hard balance.

00;36;25;20 - 00;36;43;23

Jeanne

True. I hadn't even thought of it that way in terms of, you know, who am I preparing the room for? Maybe I don't want to deal with correcting them on my pronouns, but then the person who comes after me has to make the same kind of bad choice I have to make. Right?

00;36;44;05 - 00;37;11;03

K.M.

Exactly. It gets easier as you get older and further along in your career because you're more established and therefore have a little more power and authority in those rooms. And it also is easier when you work at a place like the ACLU, which is obviously affirming and supportive, whereas somebody working at a certain law firm might not be. But it's exhausting.

00;37;12;07 - 00;37;19;28

Jeanne

And if you're going in and seeing different people every time, then it doesn't even necessarily stick. Right?

00;37;21;16 - 00;37;44;23

K.M.

We actually generated a document that is a pronouns 101 for legislators, which I am happy to share with you. Unfortunately, we didn't get it done in time for this session, but after watching lawmakers, I can handle it. But watching lawmakers misgender young people, teenagers.

00;37;45;02 - 00;37;46;24

Jeanne

Kids. I mean, really young people.

00;37;46;24 - 00;38;08;02

K.M.

Yeah, that to me is much more concerning. And so we wanted to make something that was very, very basic, 101. There's a lot of materials like that out there, but a lot of them assume, I think, more background knowledge than it's realistic to expect every legislator to have.

00;38;08;02 - 00;39;12;00

Jeanne

There's a lot of assumptions built into almost any kind of gender, 101 pronoun, 101 material. I've seen. And I think a lot of them kind of miss out on like our side of the equation of, you know, I think it'd be nice to see a guide of how to correct people and when that's a safe decision to make. Um, that's something that, you know, a kid going in there, maybe we can give to the legislators to make sure they don't ruin that kid's day, but some of them are going to ignore it. Some of them are going to not be able to learn from it at the pace we'd like them to. And, um, for those kids, I'd like to think there's some way to prepare them. Even if we can't prepare the room, how can we prepare them? Um, when you were at the beginning of that for you, what do you think would have helped, like the first time that you were dealing with a situation like that?

00;39;13;00 - 00;39;54;07

K.M.

I had a colleague at a previous job who started using they them pronouns long before I did so myself. So I had practice correcting my colleagues for them so that they didn't have to do it every single time. Yeah. And actually when I started using they them pronouns, it was initially I offered myself as a practice round for people that weren't used to using they them pronouns even before I fully switched. So I would correct people so that they could practice. So for people for whom it was extremely important, they would be less likely to mess up.

00;39;54;13 - 00;39;55;24

Jeanne

Oh, that's fantastic.

00;39;56;15 - 00;40;10;21

K.M.

I came out relatively late after law school to a resounding chorus of Duh. So a little bit late to the realization, I guess.

00;40;11;00 - 00;40;16;05

Jeanne

Yeah. So just fully into your career at that point that you came out?

00;40;16;22 - 00;40;51;02

K.M.

Yeah. So I came out as bi when I was already done with my clerkships and working at a law firm and actually got involved in the LGBT Bar Association. In Maryland, and actually I just got back from the National LGBT Bar Association Conference. Um, which was a great experience to be around other professionals from all across the country and, and learning about new developments in the law, but also just the social aspect, of course.

00;40;51;02 - 00;40;59;15

Jeanne

Yeah. Do you see that that's something that's similar to your experience that other people are having that same kind of problem across the country?

00;41;00;11 - 00;41;21;04

K.M.

Yeah, well, particularly at the, the National Trans Bar Association, um, which I just happily joined, just being around other people was just a tremendous benefit and like sense of community, I think. Yeah.

00;41;22;22 - 00;41;46;04

Jeanne

I think we're going to have to wrap up there because it's five, but I guess I just want to thank you for being on the podcast. I liked what we were able to talk about. I know that probably I could have gone down any of the paths and we would have had a really interesting conversation. So I wish we had been able to talk more about D&D, to be honest.

00;41;46;04 - 00;41;51;17

K.M.

Well, we can still do that. It just won't be recorded.

00;41;51;17 - 00;42;12;00

Jeanne

Okay. We definitely did talk a little bit more about D&D after the episode. I hope that you enjoyed listening to this conversation as much as I did. If you'd like to catch up on past episodes of the podcast, you can find the entire archive at equalityarizona.org/stories, or you can also sign up to be a guest on a future episode of the show.

00;42;12;00 - 00;42;35;00

Jeanne

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In today’s episode of the Arizona Equals Conversation, we sit down with local artist Lee Call, author of the novel The Angel Room. Arizona Equals is predicated on the power that stories can hold, and this conversation in particular is a deep dive into that very idea. Talking with Lee about their process of writing and publishing The Angel Room took us through conversations about childhood in Arizona from the 90’s to today, reflections on coming to terms with queer identity, and discussions of how to manage the challenges neurodivergence can pose for creative work.

Additional context for the conversation

* The Angel Room, by Lee Call

* Brick Road Coffee

* Neurodivergent Cleaning Crew

* Lee’s Patreon

Arizona Equals is a conversational interview podcast chronicling the lives and experiences of LGBTQ+ Arizonans. Visit our website to explore the archive or to sign up to be a guest on a future episode of the podcast!

Programming note: starting next week, we’ll be publishing new episodes of the Arizona Equals Conversation on Wednesdays.