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Most network engineers know BGP, OSPF, and maybe EIGRP, but far fewer have hands-on experience with ISIS. In this episode of The Art of Network Engineering, Andy Lapteff sits down with Russ White and Mike Bushong for a deep, opinionated, and refreshingly honest discussion about routing protocol design in modern data centers.

We explore why BGP has become the default hammer for every networking nail, what we lose when we blend underlay and overlay into a single protocol, and why some of the largest networks in the world still rely on IS-IS for simplicity, scale, and resilience.

This isn’t a “which protocol is best” argument, it’s a design conversation. One about failure domains, operational reality, education gaps, and why many engineers never learn the protocols that quietly power hyperscale networks.

In this episode:

Why BGP is policy-rich but intentionally slow
The architectural value of separating underlay and overlay
How ISIS works and why it’s simpler than you think
TLVs, scalability, and protocol evolution
Why familiarity often beats good design (for better or worse)
Where RIFT fits and where it doesn’t
The cost of losing deep protocol knowledge as engineers retire

If you’ve ever wondered why networks are designed the way they are, or if you’ve felt uneasy about “just using BGP everywhere,” this conversation is for you.

Subscribe for more conversations where technology meets the human side of IT.

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In this special on-location episode of The Art of Network Engineering, Andy Lapteff sits down in person with Kevin Myers for a conversation that pulls no punches.

Kevin brings decades of service provider and whitebox experience to the table as the two dive deep into one of networking’s most complex decisions: how to choose the right vendor to build your network.

From Cisco to whitebox, from enterprise carpeted IT to hyperscale data centers, this episode is all about designing networks that align with business needs, not just personal bias or legacy choices.

Topics include:
Why vendor selection should come after requirements gathering.
How multi-vendor environments can create both resilience and complexity.
When whitebox networking makes sense—and what kind of teams can support it.
The hidden "operational tax" of expanding your vendor portfolio.
Why understanding the business is the most critical skill for modern engineers.

Whether you're a design engineer, network architect, or just trying to future-proof your ops, this episode is packed with insights that will change how you think about gear, vendors, and the networks we build.

This episode has been sponsored by Meter. 

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Andy sits down with longtime friend William Collins to unpack three big themes shaping modern NetOps. 

First: the AWS US-East-1 outage and the myth that “cloud = resiliency by default.” They explore blast radius, hidden regional dependencies, cost trade-offs (active/active vs. DR), and why resiliency is engineered, not purchased. 

Next: how public speaking accelerates a technical career (without live-demo heartbreak). William shares practical tactics to craft a memorable talk, lean on story, and handle Q&A. 

Finally: a plain-English walkthrough of Model Context Protocol (MCP), why it exists, how it standardizes tool access for LLMs, and what that means for real NetOps workflows. 

If you design for failure, want to level up your communication skills, or keep hearing “MCP” and wonder what it actually does, this one’s for you.

This episode has been sponsored by Meter. 

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Network engineers don’t tune into corporate all-hands because they’re “lazy,” they tune out because the message often isn’t for them. In this episode of The Art of Network Engineering, Andy Lapteff sits down with longtime industry leaders Scott Robohn and Mike Bushong to unpack the disconnect between engineering teams and executive communications, and how to fix it.

They talk about:

• Why engineers roll their eyes at town halls, earnings calls, and “four pillars of excellence”
• How leadership actually thinks about growth, stock price, cost centers, and enablement
• The two jobs every company really has: build stuff or sell stuff, and where networking fits
• How to pitch your ideas in business terms so they get funded
• Why AI networking and data center infrastructure are the next durable growth areas for network pros
• The difference between being part of the product vs. enabling the product,  and why it matters for your career

If you’ve ever thought, “Just let me do my job,” this one’s for you. You’ll walk away knowing how to connect your automation, operations, or data center work to the outcomes your company actually cares about: revenue, speed, customer experience, and risk.

Listen in, take notes, and then go advocate for your work like it matters, because it does.

This episode has been sponsored by Meter. 

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Blue Origin’s Lexie Cooper is back! We riff on New Glenn’s first launch and what “vehicle #2” means for launch cadence, where to watch from Florida without getting arrested, and why streaming your learning, even when it’s awkward, is a cheat code for growth. 

Andy shares his live Python study saga (and a friendly dust-up with Jeff about “just code it”), while Lexie takes us down to Layer 1: PHYs, link pulses, why “turning off auto-negotiation” isn’t always what you think, and why messy home labs beat pretty cable porn. 

We also get real about authenticity at vendors, the pressure to be “polished,” and whether networking is still a great career in an automation-heavy market.

If you need a nudge to build, break, and learn in public, this one’s it.

In this episode:
New Glenn’s growing fleet & why multiple boosters matter
How/where to catch a Florida launch (scrubs happen)
Learning in public: textbooks on stream, tension on mic, real takeaways
PHY vs. ASIC, MAC sublayers, and auto-neg gotchas (with an oscilloscope!)
Home labs: why “spaghetti” > showroom racks for actual learning
Careers: automation pressure, Git for config history, staying authentic
Streaming nuts & bolts: TikTok vs. Twitch vs. YouTube, OBS scenes 101
Women in networking and inviting more people into the field

This episode has been sponsored by Meter. 

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Learning Python as a network engineer can feel confusing, frustrating, and let’s be honest, pretty dry at times. But Andy and Jeff are diving in together to make it real, relatable, and (hopefully) a little more fun.

In this episode, they pick up where the last Python Party left off: exploring variables, strings, methods like .title() and .strip(), and why whitespace can break your scripts. Along the way, they share honest struggles, “aha!” moments, and practical applications for automation in the networking world.

If you’ve ever looked at Python code and thought, “this isn’t for me,” this episode will make you feel seen. Join Andy and Jeff as they lab, laugh, and learn the building blocks that every network engineer needs to stay relevant in an automated future.

This episode has been sponsored by Meter. 

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We’re kicking off a brand-new “Python Study Sessions” series—learn right alongside host Andy Lapteff as he starts from absolute basics and builds momentum one concept at a time. In this first session, Andy walks through the installation of Python, setting up VS Code, running “Hello, world,” and getting comfortable with the Python REPL. Then we dive into fundamentals you’ll use everywhere: variables, print(), syntax highlighting, saving/running files, common traceback errors, and simple debugging in VS Code. This series is inspired by learning in public—join the community, ask questions, and study together as we work through Python Crash Course (3rd ed.). If you liked our recent, more technical BGP episode, you’ll love where this is headed.

What you’ll learn

• Installing Python 3 and launching the interpreter
• Writing and running your first script in VS Code
• Variables 101: assignment, reassignment, and printing values
• Reading tracebacks and fixing name/syntax errors
• Beginner mindset tips for sticking with code

We’ll stream future sessions and continue to publish the audio here. Want to follow along live, ask questions, or share your wins? Watch for stream announcements on our socials: @ArtOfNetEng.

If this format helps you, tell us—rate the show, leave a comment, or share with a friend who’s been meaning to learn Python. Your feedback decides if we keep this series going.

Subscribe to our YouTube channel and click the notification icon to get notified of our free Python Party Livestreams, where we learn Python fundamentals together: https://www.youtube.com/@artofneteng

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FREE Learn to Code for network engineers course:
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLvfm4aNXLC8wiJs-YGVQXUwukv06z5NJS&si=EqTVV_57fkfHCpP_

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Study Streams:
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLj0DbZdkhZoc8t3X98tjB4lfKMRgq03LI&si=bJ9t1tM_3cmJwesR

Support the show:
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BGP isn’t just “the internet’s protocol”—it’s the most flexible policy engine in networking. In this episode of The Art of Network Engineering, Andy Lapteff and Jeff Clark sit down with Kevin Myers (aka StubArea51) to unpack Border Gateway Protocol from the ground up: why BGP replaced EGP, how policy differs from IGP topology, and where iBGP shines inside modern enterprises.

You’ll hear practical patterns for BGP communities (standard, extended, and large), how to tag and filter at scale, and why this beats sprawling prefix lists and brittle ACLs. Kevin walks through real merger scenarios—solving overlapping RFC1918 space with communities, when to NAT vs. renumber, and why IPv6 is a secret weapon for management domains. We also cover iBGP loop prevention, route reflectors vs. full-mesh, the attributes that actually matter (local-pref > weight/MED in most shops), and how SD-WAN leans on BGP under the hood.

If you’ve ever wondered why BGP ended up everywhere—WAN, SD-WAN, and even data centers—this conversation connects the dots with clear, battle-tested examples.

This episode has been sponsored by Meter. 

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What happens when a farm kid with a knack for taking things apart discovers computers? Meet Tom Lawrence, the tech polymath behind Lawrence Systems and a YouTube channel with over 375,000 subscribers. In this engaging conversation, Tom reveals how his curiosity-driven journey from 1990s Linux enthusiast to MSP owner and content creator was fueled by a simple philosophy: lead with value.

Tom's approach stands in refreshing contrast to typical marketing strategies. "People remember people who helped them, not people who threw them in a sales funnel," he explains, detailing how his comprehensive, no-holds-barred tutorials naturally generate business leads without ever feeling like advertisements. This generosity extends to his forums, where he freely shares configurations, news sources, and technical solutions with a community of over 80,000 weekly visitors.

The discussion takes fascinating turns through cybersecurity landscapes, self-hosted AI, and the privacy culture within hacker communities. Tom breaks down complex topics with remarkable clarity – from the security implications of passkeys to the advantages of running language models locally rather than relying on cloud services. His practical advice is grounded in real-world experience: "I only do freebies for immediate family," he laughs, offering wisdom on setting boundaries as a tech professional.

Whether you're considering a career in cybersecurity, looking to understand the business side of technology, or simply fascinated by the evolution of computing, Tom's story demonstrates how technical expertise combined with genuine helpfulness creates a formula for success in the digital age. Discover why this self-described "generalist" has become one of the most trusted voices in technical education and what his journey reveals about the future of IT.

This episode has been sponsored by Meter. 

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From refinancing a car to attend Novell School to founding one of networking's most influential podcasts, Ethan Banks shares his remarkable journey through the evolution of network engineering with raw honesty and deep insight.

In this captivating conversation, Ethan takes us back to the mid-90s when networks ran on a patchwork of protocols like IPX, DeckNet, and AppleTalk, before the industry consolidated around IP. His career trajectory mirrors the transformation of networking itself—constantly adapting, expanding in scope, and requiring an ever-broader skill set.

The story behind Packet Pushers reveals the grind of content creation that many never see. Starting in 2010 when podcasting was still emerging, Ethan and co-founder Greg Farrow recorded remotely (Ethan in the US, Greg in England) while working full-time jobs. Their philosophy of "just hit publish" and focus on consistent, quality content built a community when network engineers often felt isolated in their roles. Five years of this double workload culminated in taking the leap to full-time podcasting in 2015.

What makes this episode especially valuable is Ethan's perspective on where networking is heading. Today's engineers need to understand not just routing and switching, but cloud architecture, cybersecurity, automation, and software development principles. While certifications like CCNA still provide foundational knowledge, Ethan emphasizes understanding the "why" behind networking decisions rather than just memorizing commands.

For aspiring content creators, Ethan offers encouraging wisdom: don't be intimidated by existing content. Your unique perspective and communication style will connect with people in ways others can't. Creating technical content also forces deeper understanding, revealing knowledge gaps you might not have recognized otherwise.

Join our community at linktree.com/artofneteng and visit our Discord "It’s All About the Journey" to continue the conversation about career development, content creation, and navigating the future of networking.

This episode has been sponsored by Meter. 

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