Gary concludes his interview with Jay Rudolph on the Plumb Line radio program. History is full of examples of both kings and religious leaders overstepping jurisdictional boundaries. The Bible is clear that government and politics are not the same. There are several broad categories of governments—family, church, civil—but each one is dependent upon self-governed individuals. As Robert Winthrop succinctly put it: "Men will be governed by either the Bible or the bayonet."