Phil Taylor interviews Clay Scroggins, former leader at North Point Community Church and author of How to Lead When You're Not in Charge. Clay shares his journey from engineering student to pastor, his experience serving in multi-site church leadership, and his transition into speaking and consulting.

The conversation centers on leadership without authority—particularly relevant for executive pastors and second-chair leaders. Clay unpacks the myth that leadership requires a title and emphasizes influence as the true currency of leadership. He shares practical examples from both church and corporate environments, highlighting the importance of relational influence, emotional intelligence, and patience.

They also discuss navigating organizational limitations, creating “pockets of greatness,” and leading oneself when broader change isn’t possible. Clay addresses the tension of ambition in ministry, distinguishing between selfish ambition and healthy, God-honoring drive.

The episode also explores challenges like leading change in resistant environments, working under well-known leaders like Andy Stanley, and discerning when it’s time to stay or leave a role. The conversation is both practical and deeply reflective, offering encouragement and wisdom for leaders serving behind the scenes.

Mentioned Event

The XP Summit. Phil Taylor will be presenting at this year’s XP Summit. You can get your tickets at: xpsummit.org

Guest Resources

• 🗣️Follow Clay 

• 📕How to Lead When You're Not in Charge by Clay Scroggins

• 💻clayscroggins.com

• 💻“Should I Stay or Should I Go?” (audio resource by Clay Scroggins)

From Our Partners

💻 ⁠The Church Hub⁠: The Church Hub serves pastors, ministry leaders, and their spouses through equipping and training resources. Learn more at https://thechurchhub.org  

Connect with Phil Taylor

✉️ ⁠Get Phil's Newsletter⁠

✉️ ⁠⁠[email protected]⁠⁠

🗣️ ⁠⁠@philtaylorxp⁠⁠ 

📚 ⁠Books by Phil⁠

💻 ⁠backstagepastors.org⁠

💻⁠plainjoestudios.com⁠ 

Connect with Tyler Drewitz

✉️ ⁠⁠[email protected]⁠⁠

🗣️ ⁠⁠@tylerdrewitz⁠⁠

💻 ⁠myxp.church⁠

💻⁠ridgelineprinting.com⁠

The best way to support this podcast is to like, subscribe and share it with a friend.

LIKE & SUBSCRIBE

📹 ⁠Youtube⁠

🍏 ⁠Apple⁠

🎤 ⁠Spotify

CHAPTERS

[04:00] – Clay’s Ministry Journey

[11:00] – The Myth of Leadership Titles

[17:20] – Authority vs. Influence

[25:18] – Creating a Pocket of Greatness

[29:00] – When to Stay or Leave a Role

[33:00] – Healthy vs. Unhealthy Ambition

[39:00] – Leading Change Without Authority

[43:00] – Working Under a High-Profile Leader

[47:00] – Final Encouragement & Resources

– –

Editing and Support by The Good Podcast Co. 

Backstage Pastors™️ is a Registered Trademark

In this episode, Kadi Cole joins the Backstage Pastors™️ to discuss her unexpected journey into ministry and her passion for developing female leaders in the church. She shares how her experience as often the only woman in leadership led to the creation of the Women Executive Pastor (WXP) Network, now supporting hundreds of women in executive roles.

Kadi explains the importance of mentorship, coaching, and especially sponsorship—highlighting how women are often overlooked in leadership development due to systemic habits rather than theology. She challenges male leaders to rethink how they view and support female leaders, emphasizing equal access to development resources and opportunities.

The conversation also explores the unique challenges women face in leadership, including isolation, lack of role models, and navigating expectations. Kadi encourages churches to intentionally create pathways for women to grow and remain in ministry long-term.

Resources Mentioned

• 🗣️Follow Kadi

• 📕Developing Female Leaders by Kadi Cole

• 💻wxpastors.com (Women Executive Pastor Network)

• 💻https://kadicole.com

• 💻https://femalechurchleaders.com

• 🎙️Female Church Leaders Podcast  

From Our Partners

💻 ⁠The Church Hub⁠: The Church Hub serves pastors, ministry leaders, and their spouses through equipping and training resources. Learn more at https://thechurchhub.org  

Connect with Phil Taylor

✉️ ⁠Get Phil's Newsletter⁠

✉️ ⁠⁠[email protected]⁠⁠

🗣️ ⁠⁠@philtaylorxp⁠⁠ 

📚 ⁠Books by Phil⁠

💻 ⁠backstagepastors.org⁠

💻⁠plainjoestudios.com⁠ 

Connect with Tyler Drewitz

✉️ ⁠⁠[email protected]⁠⁠

🗣️ ⁠⁠@tylerdrewitz⁠⁠

💻 ⁠myxp.church⁠

💻⁠ridgelineprinting.com⁠

The best way to support this podcast is to like, subscribe and share it with a friend.

LIKE & SUBSCRIBE

📹 ⁠Youtube⁠

🍏 ⁠Apple⁠

🎤 ⁠Spotify

CHAPTERS

[00:45] Introducing Kadi Cole[02:00] An Unlikely Ministry Journey[04:00] Birth of Women Executive Pastors Network[06:00] The Power of Female Community[09:20] Why Women Need Dedicated Spaces[12:40] Supporting Women in Leadership Growth[17:00] Mentorship, Coaching & Sponsorship[24:00] What Male Leaders Often Miss[31:20] Encouragement to Stay in the Calling

– –

Editing and Support by The Good Podcast Co. 

In this episode of Backstage Pastors™️ Phil and Tyler sit down with David Fletcher, founder of XPastor.org, one of the most comprehensive resource hubs for executive pastors. David shares the origin story of his work, which began out of a lack of available research and has grown into a platform with thousands of resources and hundreds of thousands of annual users.

The conversation explores practical tools available to executive pastors, including free courses, weekly webinars, and a robust salary database built from billions of dollars of church compensation data. David explains how churches can leverage this data for better, more objective compensation decisions and discusses the value of independent compensation studies.

David is a wealth of knowledge gleaned from years of serving executive pastors — and from being one.

Resources Mentioned

• 💻 ⁠⁠⁠XPastor.org⁠

• ⁠⁠⁠⁠💲⁠Salary Forecaster

From Our Partners

💻 ⁠The Church Hub⁠: The Church Hub serves pastors, ministry leaders, and their spouses through equipping and training resources. Learn more at ⁠⁠https://thechurchhub.org⁠⁠  

Connect with Phil Taylor

✉️⁠⁠ ⁠Get Phil's Newsletter⁠⁠⁠

✉️ ⁠⁠[email protected]⁠⁠

🗣️⁠⁠ ⁠⁠@philtaylorxp⁠⁠⁠⁠ 

📚⁠⁠ ⁠Books by Phil⁠⁠⁠

💻⁠⁠ ⁠backstagepastors.org⁠™️⁠⁠

💻⁠⁠⁠plainjoestudios.com⁠⁠⁠ 

Connect with Tyler Drewitz

✉️ ⁠⁠[email protected]⁠⁠

🗣️⁠⁠ ⁠⁠@tylerdrewitz⁠⁠⁠⁠

💻⁠⁠ ⁠myxp.church⁠⁠⁠

💻⁠⁠⁠ridgelineprinting.com⁠⁠⁠

The best way to support this podcast is to like, subscribe and share it with a friend.

LIKE & SUBSCRIBE

📹⁠⁠ ⁠Youtube⁠⁠⁠

🍏⁠⁠ ⁠Apple⁠⁠⁠

🎤⁠⁠ ⁠Spotify⁠⁠

CHAPTERS

01:34 Introducing David Fletcher & XPastor.org
07:29 The Origin Story of XPastor
10:00 Free Resources for Executive Pastors
12:00 Courses, Webinars & Getting Started
14:11 Compensation Data & Salary Forecaster17:00 Why Churches Need Compensation Studies
23:41 Benefits, Trends & Staffing Insights
27:39 The Retirement Crisis for Pastors
29:13 Innovation, AI & Leadership Mindset

– –

Editing and Support by ⁠⁠The Good Podcast Co.⁠⁠ 

In this episode of the Backstage Pastors Podcast™️ Phil and Tyler interview Jeremy Peterson, Executive Pastor at One Church in New Hampshire and a leader involved with the XP Summit. Jeremy shares his ministry journey from student ministry in Texas to leadership roles in multi-site churches and eventually serving in New England—one of the most unchurched regions in the United States. He explains the unique leadership and staffing challenges of ministry in that environment and how his church has responded by developing local leaders.

Jeremy discusses the creation of a residency program at One Church to raise up leaders internally, emphasizing hands-on ministry training and leadership development. He also explains the purpose and structure of the XP Summit, a gathering designed specifically for executive pastors to connect, learn, and support each other in ministry leadership.

Resources Mentioned

• 🗣️ ⁠XP Summit⁠
• ⛪️ ⁠One Church
• ⁠Unstuck Event: Church Building Masterclass⁠ with Phil Taylor

From Our Partners

💻 ⁠The Church Hub⁠: The Church Hub serves pastors, ministry leaders, and their spouses through equipping and training resources. Learn more at ⁠https://thechurchhub.org⁠  

Connect with Phil Taylor

✉️⁠ ⁠Get Phil's Newsletter⁠⁠

✉️ ⁠⁠[email protected]⁠⁠

🗣️⁠ ⁠⁠@philtaylorxp⁠⁠⁠ 

📚⁠ ⁠Books by Phil⁠⁠

💻⁠ ⁠backstagepastors.org⁠™️⁠

💻⁠⁠plainjoestudios.com⁠⁠ 

Connect with Tyler Drewitz

✉️ ⁠⁠[email protected]⁠⁠

🗣️⁠ ⁠⁠@tylerdrewitz⁠⁠⁠

💻⁠ ⁠myxp.church⁠⁠

💻⁠⁠ridgelineprinting.com⁠⁠

The best way to support this podcast is to like, subscribe and share it with a friend.

LIKE & SUBSCRIBE

📹⁠ ⁠Youtube⁠⁠

🍏⁠ ⁠Apple⁠⁠

🎤⁠ ⁠Spotify⁠

CHAPTERS

03:00 Why the podcast originally paused five years ago

07:00 Podcast swag and upcoming conferences

09:30 Introducing guest Jeremy Peterson10:00 Jeremy’s ministry journey from Texas to New England

13:00 Ministry challenges in unchurched regions

19:00 Building a residency program for leadership development

25:00 The story and purpose of the XP Summit

34:00 Final reflections and upcoming guests

– –

Editing and Support by ⁠The Good Podcast Co.⁠ 

In this episode, Phil and Tyler sit down with Kyle Nabors, a seasoned executive leader who has served in both large churches and global nonprofits. Kyle shares insights from decades of experience, including time at Kensington Church (a 10,000+ attendee church) and Mercy Ships, and reflects on leadership, culture, trust, and the nuanced role of the executive pastor.

One of the central themes is Kyle’s well-known metaphor: the church as a well-watered garden versus a well-oiled machine. While certain systems require precision and predictability (finances, child safety, compliance), much of ministry leadership requires organic flexibility, attentiveness, and faith. Structure must serve mission—not the other way around.

Throughout the conversation, you’ll be reminded that effective executive leadership isn’t about control—it’s about calibration. It’s about knowing the “blood type” of the organization, understanding the personality of the lead pastor, and helping clarify direction while cultivating culture.

Resources Mentioned

• 🗣️ Follow Kyle
• ⛪️ Ward Church
• Unstuck Event: Church Building Masterclass with Phil Taylor

From Our Partners

💻 ⁠The Church Hub⁠: The Church Hub serves pastors, ministry leaders, and their spouses through equipping and training resources. Learn more at https://thechurchhub.org  

Connect with Phil Taylor

✉️ ⁠Get Phil's Newsletter⁠

✉️ ⁠⁠[email protected]⁠⁠

🗣️ ⁠⁠@philtaylorxp⁠⁠ 

📚 ⁠Books by Phil⁠

💻 ⁠backstagepastors.org⁠™️

💻⁠plainjoestudios.com⁠ 

Connect with Tyler Drewitz

✉️ ⁠⁠[email protected]⁠⁠

🗣️ ⁠⁠@tylerdrewitz⁠⁠

💻 ⁠myxp.church⁠

💻⁠ridgelineprinting.com⁠

The best way to support this podcast is to like, subscribe and share it with a friend.

LIKE & SUBSCRIBE

📹 ⁠Youtube⁠

🍏 ⁠Apple⁠

🎤 ⁠Spotify

CHAPTERS

00:00 – Introduction to Kyle Nabors

04:00 – Kyle’s Leadership Journey: Military, Business, Nonprofit & Church

09:00 – The Lunch That Sparked a Book

11:53 – Structure Must Serve the Mission

15:00 – Trust: The Currency of the Executive Pastor

21:19 – Backstage Leadership at Kensington Church

25:00 – Diagnosing Before Prescribing

31:54 – Thriving, Authenticity & Spiritual Health

36:00 – Navigating Church vs. Nonprofit Culture

43:48 – Return on Investment, Direction & Stewardship

– –

Editing and Support by The Good Podcast Co. 

In this episode of The Backstage Pastors Podcast™️, Phil and Tyler sit down with longtime friend and ministry partner Ed Marcelle to explore the dynamics of the Lead Pastor (LP) and Executive Pastor (XP) relationship. Drawing from their shared history planting Terra Nova Church in upstate New York, the conversation traces Ed’s journey from solo church planter to national church planting leader. Along the way, they unpack lessons on burnout, vision, organizational leadership, team-based ministry, and the importance of mutual submission between LPs and XPs. The episode also highlights Ed’s transition into his current role serving church planters across the country and reflects on what it means to steward God’s investment in leaders for long-term, generational impact.

Note: This interview was recorded a few years ago, but we decided we liked it so much, we just had to keep it.

Resources Mentioned

• 🗣️Follow Ed 

• 💻Harbor Church Planting Network 

• Unstuck Event: Church Building Masterclass with Phil Taylor

From Our Partners

💻 ⁠The Church Hub⁠: The Church Hub serves pastors, ministry leaders, and their spouses through equipping and training resources. Learn more at https://thechurchhub.org  

Connect with Phil Taylor

✉️ ⁠Get Phil's Newsletter⁠

✉️ ⁠⁠[email protected]⁠⁠

🗣️ ⁠⁠@philtaylorxp⁠⁠ 

📚 ⁠Books by Phil⁠

💻 ⁠backstagepastors.org⁠

💻⁠plainjoestudios.com⁠ 

Connect with Tyler Drewitz

✉️ ⁠⁠[email protected]⁠⁠

🗣️ ⁠⁠@tylerdrewitz⁠⁠

💻 ⁠myxp.church⁠

💻⁠ridgelineprinting.com⁠

The best way to support this podcast is to like, subscribe and share it with a friend.

LIKE & SUBSCRIBE

📹 ⁠Youtube⁠

🍏 ⁠Apple⁠

🎤 ⁠Spotify

CHAPTERS

02:00 – Ed’s first church plant and lessons from solo pastoring

07:00 – Discovering the power of LP and XP partnership

12:00 – Vision, risk, and planting Terra Nova Church

22:40 – Impact on church planting in the Northeast

26:00 – Steps 1, 2, and 100: visionaries and implementers

29:33 – Behind the scenes of a healthy LP/XP relationship

34:22 – Ed’s transition to Harbor Network

40:14 – Influencing leaders and long-term ministry impact

43:01 – Advice for Lead Pastors and Executive Pastors

– –

Editing and Support by The Good Podcast Co. 

In this episode of the Backstage Pastors Podcast™️, hosts Phil and Tyler kick off the series by welcoming longtime executive pastor, author, and consultant Mike Bonem. The conversation centers on the origins and evolution of the executive pastor (XP) and second-chair leader role, drawing heavily from Mike’s seminal book Leading from the Second Chair and his more recent work Thriving in the Second Chair.

Mike shares the story behind writing one of the first books focused on second-chair leadership, reflects on how the XP role has changed over the past two decades, and offers practical wisdom for sustaining long-term effectiveness in backstage ministry. The discussion also explores challenges around change management in churches, delegation, metrics, and how second-chair leaders can find encouragement and visible impact even when their work often happens behind the scenes.

Resources Mentioned

• Unstuck Event: Church Building Masterclass with Phil Taylor

• Leading from the Second Chair by Mike Bonem

• Thriving in the Second Chair by Mike Bonem 

• Leading Congregational Change by Mike Bonem

• In Pursuit of Great and Godly Leadership by Mike Bonem

From Our Partners

💻 ⁠The Church Hub serves pastors, ministry leaders, and their spouses through equipping and training resources. Learn more at Thechurchhub.org

Connect with Phil Taylor

✉️ ⁠Get Phil's Newsletter⁠

✉️ ⁠⁠[email protected]⁠⁠

🗣️ ⁠⁠@philtaylorxp⁠⁠ 

📚 ⁠Books by Phil⁠

💻 ⁠backstagepastors.org⁠

💻⁠plainjoestudios.com⁠ 

Connect with Tyler Drewitz

✉️ ⁠⁠[email protected]⁠⁠

🗣️ ⁠⁠@tylerdrewitz⁠⁠

💻 ⁠myxp.church⁠

💻⁠ridgelineprinting.com⁠

LIKE & SUBSCRIBE

📹⁠ ⁠Youtube⁠⁠

🍏⁠ ⁠Apple⁠⁠

🎤⁠ ⁠Spotify

CHAPTERS

01:40 – Series Overview and Defining the Executive Pastor Role

03:17 – Announcement: Church Building Projects Masterclass

06:24 – Introducing Mike Bonem

08:38 – The Story Behind Leading from the Second Chair

12:38 – Why Thriving in the Second Chair Was Written

14:04 – Extending Your Shelf Life in Ministry

17:00 – Finding Encouragement in Backstage Ministry

24:50 – Why Change Is So Hard in Churches

33:09 – Preparing for the Executive Pastor Role

– –

Editing and Support by The Good Podcast Co. 

In this preview episode, hosts Phil Taylor and Tyler Drewitz introduce the Backstage Pastors™️ Podcast, a show created specifically for executive pastors and second-chair leaders in churches and nonprofits. They unpack why a niche podcast like this is needed, explain the “backstage pastors” concept, share their ministry journeys, and outline what listeners can expect when the show officially launches on January 21, 2026.

Phil and Tyler talk about their heart for under-the-radar leaders who bring vision into reality, their desire to platform both well-known and lesser-known practitioners, and their hope that the podcast will be a high-ROI investment for the Kingdom by resourcing those who rarely get the spotlight but carry enormous responsibility.

From Our Partners

💻 The Church Hub

Connect with Phil Taylor

✉️ Get Phil's Newsletter

✉️ ⁠[email protected]⁠

🗣️ ⁠@philtaylorxp⁠ 

📚 Books by Phil

💻 backstagepastors.org

💻plainjoestudios.com 

Connect with Tyler Drewitz

✉️ ⁠[email protected]⁠

🗣️ ⁠@tylerdrewitz⁠

💻 myxp.church

💻ridgelineprinting.com

LIKE & SUBSCRIBE

📹 Youtube

🍏 Apple

🎤 Spotify

Chapters

00:00:00 – Welcome to the Backstage Pastors Podcast

00:00:45 – Why Another Leadership Podcast?

00:02:28 – The Executive Pastor Niche and Phil’s Book Journey

00:04:29 – Meet Co-Host Tyler: Roles, Churches, and Businesses

00:05:59 – Meet Host Phil Taylor: Coaching, Cohorts, and Plain Joe Studios

00:09:39 – The “Backstage Pastors” Idea and Story Behind the Name

00:12:44 – Why This Podcast Matters for Second-Chair Leaders

00:19:04 – Launch Date, Release Schedule, and First Guest Preview

– –

Editing and Support by The Good Podcast Co.