The Blue Planet Show

The interview documents an in-depth conversation between Rob Stehlik and Paul Martin, the CEO and Co-founder of Foil Drive, at the AWSI show in Hood River 2024.

The discussion starts with observations of Foil Drive at the hatchery, covering downwinders and the challenges of riding into the wind. Paul explains techniques for easier foiling by keeping the board flat and utilizing the wind and waves effectively. He elaborates on achieving the primary goal of Foil Drive: to assist riders in getting on foil quickly, then allowing them to enjoy pure foiling without motor assistance.

Paul then discusses equipment innovations in the Gen 2 system, including a high gain antenna for better connectivity even when submerged. He highlights collaborations with brands to integrate the motor system into boards and masts more aerodynamically. He explains the design of carbon and aluminum masts, emphasizing their benefits in terms of stiffness and drag reduction. He also notes that while integrated systems create dedicated foil setups, they offer unparalleled hydrodynamic performance.

The conversation covers Foil Drive's user-friendly features like easy battery replacement, tool-less assembly, and flexibility in mounting on various boards. Paul details improvements in travel compatibility with new split-design travel batteries adhering to airline regulations. He discusses the battery life variability dependent on usage and weight and mentions enhancements in handling and control through the handheld remote and the upcoming hands-free remote system.

On technique tips, Paul advises beginners on maintaining board flatness and gradually increasing speed for smooth lift-off. He highlights the significance of position and subtle movements. He also explains how to transition from motor power to pure foiling seamlessly.

Finally, Paul talks about the pricing of Foil Drive systems, emphasizing the popularity and recommendation of the Max Power system due to its runtime, range, and power benefits. He describes additional accessories like the propeller guard for safety and the various equipment improvements aimed at reducing drag and increasing performance.

In a special episode of the Blue Planet Show, guest host Tyler Landon interviews Rob Stehlik, the founder of Blue Planet.

The discussion focuses on Rob’s extensive experience in the watersports industry, his journey from windsurfing to paddleboarding to foiling, and the release of his new book, 'Stand Up Paddleboarding for Dummies.'

Rob reflects on his 30-year journey, starting with his passion for windsurfing in Germany and moving to Maui. He shares insights into his role as an early adopter and promoter of standup paddleboarding and discusses the challenges he faced in writing his first book.

The conversation delves into the operational and logistical challenges of running Blue Planet, including early struggles with suppliers, the expansion of product lines, and the importance of branding and consistent quality.

Rob also talks about his YouTube channel, which has become a vital marketing tool for the brand. Highlights from his global travels, engagements in competitive standup paddling, and his thoughts on balancing business with personal passions add depth to the narrative.

Additionally, Rob discusses the diversification of Blue Planet into rental services and commercial real estate, showcasing the brand's growth and adaptation over the years.

Tyler, who has a history of working with Rob, adds personal anecdotes about their business relationship and the impact Rob’s mentorship has had on his own career.

Aidan Nicholas was at the Armstrong booth at the 2024 AWSI show in Hood River and I had the opportunity to interview him.  We talk about the 2024 M2O race he won by a big margin,  the Armstrong equipment he uses for racing and freestyle, wings, boards, foils, and riding in the Gorge the days before the show.  

In an interview at the AWSI 2024 show, Aidan Nicholas, fresh off his victory in the Molokai to Oahu race, discussed his race strategy, equipment choices, and lessons learned from competing. He described how tricky the race was due to variable wind conditions, requiring tactical decisions to maintain speed. Aidan highlighted his use of a 580 foil for improved glide and the importance of multiple jibes to gain ground during the race. He also emphasized the role of his 7-meter wing in maintaining power during lighter winds, allowing him to bear off and keep momentum.

Aidan talked about his setup, including using a small 48-liter board during the race, though he mentioned a larger 65-liter board would have been more suitable in light wind sections. He also discussed the critical role of foils, noting his preference for the MA625 foil in everyday conditions and the 580 foil for races. The interview covered various technical aspects of wing design, board volume, and foil dynamics, with Aidan stressing the importance of a balanced setup for maximizing performance in racing and downwind conditions.

He also gave insight into Armstrong's new alloy rig, designed for a more affordable entry into high-performance setups without sacrificing durability, thanks to features like titanium fittings. This new alloy rig is a more budget-friendly option compared to traditional carbon setups, but with slightly lower performance.

Transcript of the interview:

Aloha, it's Robert with Blue Planet. We're here at the AWSI show 2024. I'm here with Aidan Nicholas. You just won the Molokai to Oahu race. And then we got a bunch of footage of you at the hatchery the last few days, like right before the show started. We had some really fun conditions. Yeah, we did.

The gorge turned on and It does what it does best and we're in some fun conditions close to the, close to Hood, which was nice. Yeah, so  let's talk a little bit about the race first. So the Molokai to Oahu race, you were like, I think you finished like miles ahead of everybody else, right? Like a couple miles probably, something like that?

Yeah, I hit it. It was a tricky race, that's for sure. Yeah, it got really light in the middle, right? Very light. It was what do we have in the middle there? It was probably 6 to 10 knots. And it was a tactical, the cloud came through in the middle. The start was nuking. Middle was super light and the end started to pick back up again.

But, it was a few tactical decisions in the middle to decide whether I hit, go to Oahu or just keep playing down the bumps that I was in the middle. Which, a big improvement. So you can make downwind ground faster, but when I couldn't, when I didn't have the wind strength, it was hard to do that. So I was like, okay, I'm going to race out from this cloud cover. 

I crossed to closer to Oahu, got out from the clouds and the wind started to pick up a little bit more and then played all the way down and had a pretty good race all the way through. So you actually stayed a little bit northerly of the run line. I definitely did. Yeah. Okay. There was a lot of jibes and I looked at my track this year in comparison to last year and last year.

I could probably count on that.  Maybe six or seven jibes. That's when I think was in the vicinity of 80 to 90. So it's like really playing swell lines and in the middle there, when you get your speed, if you can jive on it, jive back again and gain another a hundred meters downwind, it makes a big difference.

So you use the jibes to actually make.  When you didn't have those gusts and the swells lined up you could really soak on some fast rollers and just soak down there. And that's why I changed last year I rode the 65 MA, and this year I was on the 580, and it was just for the fact that I could actually glide on the waves when needed.

If it did die off, I could just cruise down and make sure that I could stay on the faces. It says pump over a little bit and connect some, so  yeah. I found a lot of times the hardest part where, like if you came off a bump and then you in the trough and there's no wind or whatever, and you're just like, Oh,  and then you just don't want to come off well.

Cause you know, you can't get back up on foot. It is super tricky out there. It was a tricky race for sure. I rode a pretty small board which I think going forward again I'd probably ride a little bit more volume. Something in the, I I'm 82kg so 175,  180, 180 pounds. And I ride,  I rode a 48 litre but a 75 would have been a much better, safer option in that middle there if you did come down like a little bit.

You could actually get back up again. So you were able to go all the way without coming off foil though, or? I had one fall in the early section. I made a mishap and switching my feet in a jibe. Had a crash, came down there and then I had one other time with a wing clipped a wave top and got ripped down my hands.

But, and by the time I got it back in, I was on the water, but I still managed to get straight back up again. Now they're both pretty quick recoveries. Cool. And so let's talk about these wings. You used that, the seven meter, right? I did, yeah.  So let's talk a little bit about that. I think last year you only had the smaller sizes in these wings, right?

We did. 6. 1 was the biggest and there's something I chatted to the guys about that we discussed and we're going, Okay, what wing size do we need for this race? What's the best sort of size? And VMG is the massive ball player in this whole thing. Downwind racing is you can have the fastest gear, but if you can't soak and 10 degrees difference makes a massive  Speed difference you've got to be going for that 10 degrees is huge, right?

So  The seven meter just allowed me it was a definitely overpowered at the top But I could get a lot of depth off the start line and then as it lightened off in the middle, I got back to my normal angles I run but I just had a bit more power in the hands and Over that course of that race, a lot of people tend to get pretty tired as it gets near the end.

So to have a wing that's got a little bit more power, it just allows you to, instead of going Oh, it's a bit lighter. I'll just come up. It's I've still got power. I can just bear away and actually soak more than coming up on it. And that's always a better option in a downwind race. Definitely.

I was using a seven meter as well, which at the start you were, it was Oh, it's really windy. Maybe I don't need a big wing, but then yeah, I'm glad.  I'm glad they did use it. It's cool how you have this is to keep the center straight a little bit shorter. You have that square end here.

It's also to keep the wingtips a little bit shorter proportionally. So we can add a bit more area without going as wide. So if you look at our 6 1, a small difference there between actual wingspan. And allowing that there allows the working section, which is the section closest to the frame to be a little bit wider and actually gain some power through there.

So  these have been super efficient and they just get you up in those super light conditions and get you racing. Okay. Yeah, so I guess just more power in the middle by making it exactly. So if you think about it, like that's your, on average, your longest part of a wing. So if you can expand that a little bit wider,  and you can get the power through this section, and here you can get more square area.

In that main section of the wings, you don't have to push out the tips and you don't have to add another strut out here to give the  extra support because you've got it in the middle there.  And then we're using it with these handles, these same handles. I guess that's standard. That's our standard handles.

Yeah, so cool. So and then what would you say, in terms of what's the most important, I, in my opinion, it's For the foil is the most important because that's what determines your top speed you're like What's a comfortable speed you can ride but then obviously the wing  provides the power so You need a power good powerful wing, but I would say that's probably come second to the foiler What would you say and then the board is probably third Yeah, it's I think they all play a part together Like it's a combination of things put together if you have the wrong board and you can't get up you're not right yeah there's a whole lot of strategical decisions and things Yeah, different.

Different setup feel feels nicer in the geometry and the difference between the foil and the trap and the deck Angle makes a massive difference. So having those and all combined together  Can make a big difference on your riding experience foil and mask  I was up to a 103. 5 mast is what I raced across my channel on.

And it was just so that gave me that extra, when you're coming down those cranking swells, you've just got that little bit extra to play. Yeah. Height. Gives you a little bit of reaction time to keep you from breaching it. A hundred percent. Yeah. And then, so would you  like, and that's another question I have the closer you are to the surface of the water with the foil, the more efficient it is.

Yeah. But then with a longer mass. Just like a lot of times when I'm out there, even though I have a pretty long mask, I'm still pretty low to the surfaces for the safety, like safety surfing it a lot of times, especially when you're going fast. Is that kind of what you do, or do you always try to be as high as you can on the mask kind of thing?

I try to get as high as I can.  I get to a certain point, there's a risk versus reward. It's like anything, any foil you ride, any mast you ride, it's always that risk versus reward of like how high top speed versus how comfortable am I at that speed. If you can ride a faster speed, but you're losing control every couple of minutes, like a crash is a minute of your time.

If you think about it your speed can drop off a few if you can actually have a setup that you can ride and it can make you a cross in that, in a cleaner run. Yeah. We didn't have a nuking one, but if it is nuking out there, you do get faces that are completely vertical. Coming out the back of them, it's like coming through a surf break.

You come through and you can completely breach out the front of them as they're crashing or as they're cresting at the top. Yeah, I find that if you're overtaking a bump, it's like you have to almost push your nose down and stay really low and not cause, yeah. 

And that's where good boards are important because as you touch down, if that board touches down and just hits the lip and keeps riding off, you're fine. But if it sticks or if it grabs, when you're just trying to stay low coming through that bump, it makes a big difference. The wing for sure. Especially in downwind races, these bigger wings is you've always got that power.

Like you want that power. It's one of those things any down window, you're going for a down window from Vito down to here, or even doing a down window on Maui. If the wind dies or the wind ladens off, you wanna be able to get home. So going that one size, extra bigger than you would for a regular back and forth session for a down window is.

Yeah, another reason is to that once you bear off the wind you have less effective wind in your wing, right? So you actually need more power to have that angle, so yeah makes sense So yeah, let's talk a little bit about the board like what board we're using in the Molokai race I was using my 48 liter wing board  You have one of those here?

Oh wow, so yeah, that's a pretty small board for for racing, eh? Exactly. Would you say, yeah? That was much smaller than I probably should have been using. It was what I had and what I was traveling with. I definitely, looking at it, it's probably now, from what I know, I'd probably be on a 65 Midland.

This guy here. And this is what I probably should have ridden just a little bit extra a few like a few more litres It's gonna get me up a little bit easier middle of the channel. It's got a little bit more length in it So it's gonna glide and get up a little bit quicker. So this would have been my board of choice  For the crossing.

Yeah, you just didn't have it on the day of the race. Exactly. Yeah, that's one of those things It's what you travel with and I travel with this and I ride this all the time. So I am quite dialed in Yeah, and then you can use it in anything, like waves racing. And that's what I was doing, I did some wave stuff.

Even if you really have to, you can prone it too, as a board. If you've gone, if you've come there and you're like, Oh sweet, okay, I've got this board, at least I can still get out on the water. Yeah. No matter what.  And then, when you were riding at the hatchery last before the show, were you using this board or you had to using that board.

This board, yeah. So that's your go to, huh? Yep.  And that one's 48 liters. How many liters is that one? 65. Okay, so we've got about 17 liters difference So yeah, and that makes a big difference if the wind is light and you don't have to get to the surface first Exactly.  Especially those sort of wings, like once you get them moving with this sort of board You can go down pretty light and still be able to get up.

Pretty crucial And also just less drag and yeah, and I made that big real, I made that big realization when I was You know  I had a GoPro on my board and I came down and it knocked the GoPro and I fix the GoPro and I was just outside the harbour in Maui and what happens is I fix the GoPro,  went sweet, went to go back up again but didn't realise I was running fully on apparent and there was no wind to get back up again so I swam from the outside of the harbour.

Oh. All the way into the inside there and it was like a 40 minute paddle and that was when I was like,  This is where that mid length would be really nice right now. This is where I could have got up in this light of breeze. Yeah, was that like the day before the Molokai race? The Maui to Molokai race?

Yeah. Yeah, that same thing happened to me. I fell like right outside the harbor and then I couldn't get going again for a while. It was really light right there, huh? Yeah. And that's what makes it a bit light. Yeah, that's where it's nice to have a bigger board. Yeah. Let's talk about the foils, like the foils you were using, and the, Yeah, so I was using a Wanna go up to the, check out the different foils? 

Okay, so we're gonna talk a little bit about the foils I guess your, what you're usually using in the, in at the hatchery, what you would use on a race, and so on. Yeah, sounds good. That's my normal mast length, an 8. 65.  And I was riding a 103. 5 for the race. Yeah. A big difference in height.

It doesn't look like that much but it makes a huge difference. Exactly. The feel is totally different, yeah. It's amazing that sort of, you from here down, that's your real height because you're almost running at maximum at that height all the time. And especially when you've got some extra waves that just makes a big difference.

It also makes a big difference in recovery. Because you drop, you get enough time to bring it back up again. When it's a real short mast, unless it's super short under 60 centimeters, sort of 50, in the 50s, then you can recover. Because the board, the nose never drops far enough, but anything where the pitch angle can be big enough, like what you get on these 865s and even the 103.

5, it's nice to have that extra height to just, out of it and compensate, yeah.  Yeah, that's my truth. It's, a lot of times when you crash, it's not from, like you, sometimes you, it's like when you come back up again, like you hit the water, and then as you come back up, you can't recover back and the longer matches give you that much play.

A hundred percent. So I always ride a TC60 Fuse with this  here's our fuses here I run a 60 Fuse, the guys behind the boat run a 50 Fuse, and and there's sometimes for Some of the disciplines or learning you get into a 70 fuse, but it's more 70 fuse Just gives you a little bit more pitch stability and front to back And sometimes you can run smaller tails, which allows you to carve a little quicker But still have that like forward to back pitch control But I rode the 60 fuse and that's pretty much the standard for Everything I do is on this thing.

Yeah. That's that. 60 fuselage, okay. And then, when we come to foils, we come over this to the side.  MA625. Is the,  Is what I ride on a daily basis. When I was at the hatch the other day, That was what I was on. Yeah. And that's the one that Cash was using at J Bay to ride these huge waves to. Which is So the potential and what it can do in the different days, And,  Yeah, it's interesting too because it's Actually a fairly simple design.

There's nothing super fancy about it. Not super high aspect Not yeah, it's just a but it just does everything we want to do It allows us to rip it allows us to go fast. It keeps control You've got you got a nice roll. So there's a lot of potential that it has So yeah, and then this here is so last year I raced m2o on this.

Okay, so I did that and then this year You  I did this, so I got a slightly wider span. And this. , which is gonna gimme a bit more, glide a little bit more there. And it's a five 80 and that's a 6 2 5 . So just more high aspect, just a bit more high aspect. These are like, the top end isn't as incredible on these, like you can't push them as fast.

But  the glide and the potential for this downwind racing is what I needed and that's why running, I've even down winded this in the gorge, so I sub paddled it up and Oh wow. Had a, on a good day out here where it's real fun to rip the turns on. It's super playful.  So you think this one actually has a higher top end speed, but this one is the kind of more comfortable at high speeds?

This one is more comfortable at high speed. This one can be pushed at high speed, but isn't as comfortable at pushed. But it gives me glide when that wind dies. And that's what I was like last year. A big lesson of like how I can glide the angle I can take and I got Rolled pretty hard from behind just down to leward by fin in the second half of the race and I was Like I really need something that I can actually just glide on my swells and actually capitalize on that so this is the kind of style we're in for there.

Cool  All right  So and then what are the other foils in the range you want to go over? Yes, sweet different foils, I just A speed 180 tail. That's my pretty standard option for any winging discipline in a sense. Unless I'm really cranking in the surf just because of the turning ability.

But, I put this with a red shim and I get my maximum speed potential. And it's super quick to ride. So the red shim is one degree. And that basically, it flattens out the angle. Exactly. You lose a little bit of pump, but you get a little bit more speed. So basically the angle between the front wing and the back wing is a little bit less, so it has less drag.

Yeah, it's even not between that, but even on this, the section flattens out. So then you can get more speed off that 180 tail. It just adds a little bit, it does, you do get a little bit less stability in a sense, on a small degree. And you lose a little bit of pumping when you shim it.

Okay. But, you get that extra speed potential, and that's what I love to ride when I wing and do freestyle and Wave ride. It's this. If I'm purely wave riding, and it's solid swell, or I'm towing or anything like that, it's the 180. Or the 140, sorry. It's still the speed one, yeah? Oh, the dart. The dart. The dart, and I put a blue shim on this one for me.

That's my preference. Just cause I like a little bit more speed potential, but it's already a fast enough tail. I want the control and I don't want to lose all my pump out of the tail. And then sometimes having, a little bit more angle also makes it easier to turn, right? Yeah.  Okay.

So we go, the surf is still what the guys are all using behind the boat  glides really good for flat water paddle ups.  Pump 202 gives you that stability when you're jumping off the dock. So it gives you a little bit extra time to get onto the foil, get over the top of it and get pumping. And it's amazing.

It might only give you a small fraction of a second, but it's enough to make a big difference. Then we've got the 300, which is just super stable getting into it, going to provide that stability through learning new tacks, learning new jibes. Or your progression, and then a flow 2 3 5 as you're transitioning down from the S1 300 into your next other tail options.

Yeah. Yeah, and for those, the kind of beginner guys out there, don't start on one of these. There's more tails, yeah. There's definitely more advanced stuff, yeah. Okay. L. O. Rig.  So ARMY  came up with this and when I first heard about it I was like,  Alloy, we've done carbon all this time, what are we doing?

And it wasn't until I saw the product and had a conversation with ARMY that I was like, Wow, this, he didn't come to corners. Like making alloy rigs with titanium fittings. Corrosion exactly and giving like everything that it comes with when you arrive in a box It's got all the washers that you could need for if you take this apart and replace it You can put a new washer on each time  And it just allows you to get into the system into the Armstrong system at a better price point Yeah, much less expensive.

Exactly carbon mass and fuselage exactly and it's gonna have its difficulties because it's not your carbon setup It's not as the section is a Your 17 mil in thickness here in comparison to a performance mask where you are 14. So there's a big difference there. It's lower. But and you have your corrosion there.

I could sit my  carbon mask together for years and it's still boom, take it off. This over time Army's done an incredible job with  all the fittings, everything like that. How you can take it apart you can keep this whole setup together. It is. Advised to take off the front wing. I wanted to ask you about the wings too, because you were on a three meter wing when a lot of guys were on like two fives or two tiny wings, yeah?

Yes, we can chat about that, so yeah, so at the hatchery I was filming you and I think most of the Armstrong team was on the three meter wing when it was blowing super hard and a lot of the, a lot of the locals were on like two meter or two and a half meter wings, really tiny wings.

So I just was wondering like, what's and you do have a 2. 6. So what's the difference and why were you using the three meters? I like a little bit more power on average. I love the hang time it gives me here and coming down a little bit softer. The smaller wings, I love to switch with those guys when we're out there and actually freestyle becomes a lot easier when we go to smaller wings.

But, I love a little bit extra power. It's gotta be, when I jump, I'm not gonna come down a lot. It's a weight difference, when those guys come down with their weight, it's a lot lighter, so they can just come down softly. Whereas this here, is they've got so much power in their hands that they can just  I have to go up and then coming down.

If I come down to smaller wing, I just dropped too fast.

Okay. Thanks, Aiden. Thanks so much. Appreciate your time and your knowledge, sharing the knowledge. So good luck and probably see you again next year at the Molokai race. Yeah, no, it'd be great. I'm looking forward to another year and see what happens. All right. Thanks for watching.

Robert Stehlik introduces Dave Kalama as a pioneer in various water sports, including windsurfing, surfing, towing, and foiling. Dave’s innovations have significantly influenced these sports, making them more accessible to the masses. He is currently at the forefront of designing advanced foiling boards widely used by athletes worldwide.

The Essence of Design and Innovation

Dave shares his perspective on designing foiling boards. For him, the goal has always been to create the best boards possible, focusing on the challenge of innovation rather than mass adoption. He reflects on the joy of seeing people use his designs but emphasizes that his primary motivation has been to refine and improve the boards in the shaping room.

Evolution of Stand-Up Foiling

Dave discusses the rapid growth of stand-up foiling, particularly in downwind racing, and his role in designing the long, narrow boards that have become standard. He recounts the initial challenges and iterative process of developing these boards, initially aimed at prone foilers but eventually proving successful for stand-up paddling. This evolution has made the sport more accessible and enjoyable for a broader audience.

Challenges and Learning Curves

The development of these boards wasn’t straightforward. Dave describes the numerous iterations and frustrations along the way. It took years to perfect the design, with moments of doubt and pauses in the project. However, the persistence paid off as he eventually found the right combination of length and width to make the boards efficient and stable.

Importance of Paddle Technique

Dave highlights the importance of paddle technique in stand-up foiling. He explains that as boards became narrower, the paddle became the primary source of stability. This shift in mindset allowed paddlers to handle narrower boards effectively. He advises those new to the sport to focus on learning proper paddle techniques, possibly by taking classes like those offered by Jeremy Riggs.

The Future of Foiling and Equipment Evolution

Dave reflects on how the foiling sport has evolved, particularly with the introduction of high-aspect wings that prioritize speed over ease of use. He notes that while these wings have made the sport more competitive, they have also reduced the number of prone foilers due to the physical demands required to use them effectively.

Personal Connection to Traditional Stand-Up Paddling

Despite his focus on foiling, Dave still enjoys traditional stand-up paddling and longboarding. He talks about the simplicity and fun of these activities, which provide a contrast to the intensity of foiling. He also reminisces about the early days of stand-up paddling, appreciating how much easier and more fun foiling has made these activities.

Competition and the Changing Landscape

Dave acknowledges the competitive nature of foiling races today, noting how the level of competition has increased dramatically. While he still enjoys racing, his work commitments have made it difficult to train adequately. He discusses the challenges of competing against younger, fitter athletes who are using increasingly advanced equipment.

Balancing Work and Passion

Dave’s current focus is on his work, which often requires travel and limits his ability to compete. He mentions how he still finds ways to support others in the sport, sharing his knowledge and experience. While he would like to race again, he recognizes the importance of balancing work and personal passions.

Legacy and Family Influence

Dave shares his family background, explaining how his Hawaiian heritage and his father’s surfing accomplishments influenced his path. Growing up in Southern California, he developed a love for the ocean and water sports, eventually leading him to Maui, where his passion for windsurfing and later foiling flourished.

The Early Days of Windsurfing

Dave recounts his early days in windsurfing, describing how his parents’ gift of a windsurfer for his high school graduation sparked his interest. Moving to Maui at 20, he was initially a beginner but quickly advanced by surrounding himself with skilled windsurfers. This environment allowed him to excel in the sport and eventually turn professional.

Conclusion

Dave Kalama’s journey is one of relentless innovation, passion, and dedication to water sports. From his early days in California to becoming a leading figure in foiling design, his contributions have significantly shaped the sports he loves. While his focus may have shifted towards work and family in recent years, his influence on the sport continues through his designs and the athletes who use them.

This summary captures the essence of Dave Kalama’s insights, experiences, and contributions to water sports, particularly in the field of foiling.

Welcome to the Blue Planet Show, where we’re recapping the 25th edition of the Molokai to Oahu race. This episode features Robert Stehlik, who recently won the 14-foot stock stand-up paddleboard (SUP) division. Robert is excited about his accomplishment, sharing insights into his experience during the challenging race.

Robert starts by discussing his back-to-back participation in the Molokai crossing, having raced on wingfoil boards the previous weekend. He highlights the challenging conditions, emphasizing the grind to get into the wind line and catch bumps to start moving forward. This year’s race had all divisions starting together, making it more interesting and competitive.

Robert reflects on the evolution of the sport, noting the fluctuating popularity of stand-up paddling and prone foiling. He mentions the international competitors, especially from New Zealand and Australia, who take the sport seriously from a young age. The start was at 8 a.m., earlier than the previous weekend’s foil start. Despite being the last paddler off the beach, Robert managed to catch up and enjoy the race.

Throughout the interview, Robert details his strategic approach to the race. He talks about the advantage of starting together with other divisions, making it more engaging to have competitors around. He recounts the early part of the race, where a Brazilian paddler on an unlimited board took an early lead, but Robert maintained his pace.

The conditions were tough, with minimal waves and challenging winds. Robert chose to stay in the wind shadow, which, despite being a longer route, proved advantageous against the headwinds. He mentions his training partners, Jimmy Marshdale and Roland, who also opted for the wind shadow and performed well.

Robert discusses his equipment, highlighting his 14-foot bump rider board and Kaizen V3 paddle. The board’s stability and the paddle’s design contributed to his success. He also shares his nutrition strategy, emphasizing the importance of hydration and calorie intake during the race. He used a combination of Tailwind (a nutrition mix) and regular water, supplemented with pickle juice shots to prevent cramping.

Reflecting on past races, Robert notes his previous experiences with cramping and how pickle juice has become a reliable remedy. For nutrition, he found that baby food squeeze packs worked well, providing easy-to-digest calories. This year, he skipped his usual Poi mix due to availability issues and found the baby food to be an excellent alternative.

Robert expresses surprise at being the only participant to compete in both the foil and stand-up paddle divisions. He expected more competitors to take on both challenges but acknowledges the significant time and financial commitment involved. He mentions notable athletes like James Casey and Kai Lenny, who might have been strong contenders in both categories.

Concluding the interview, Robert reflects on the demanding nature of stand-up paddling training compared to wing foiling. He appreciates the conditioning benefits from his long paddles, which also helped improve his wing foiling performance. Despite the sport’s fluctuating popularity, Robert remains passionate about stand-up paddling and its unique challenges.

Congratulations to Robert Stehlik for his impressive achievements in both divisions of the Molokai to Oahu race. Stay tuned for more exciting interviews and race recaps on the Blue Planet Show. Aloha!

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Most of the video footage featured in the YouTube video was shot by Derek Hama while he was wing foil racing. We talk about the experience of foil racing from Maui to Molokai and the Molokai Molokai race the following day. The previous weekend we competed in the Paddle Imua race, which was the first race of the Koa Kai triple crown race series. The M2M race had a big turnout with 120 SUP foil racers and over 40 wing foilers. The conditions were beautiful and unlike last year, the wind was blowing all the way to the finish, with the exception of a wind shadow behind the pier. Derek, Kevin, Matt and I discuss the race, the equipment we used, the conditions, and things we learned for next year. We hope you enjoy it, we will cover the Molokai to Oahu Foil race in next weeks video, so stay tuned for the M2O foil edition video! Find complete M2M race results here: https://www.pseresults.com/post/molokai-holokai-m2m-2024

Here is a recap of this video written by Chat GPT, not bad! :)

Epic Maui to Molokai Wing Foiling Adventure!

In this exciting episode from Blue Planet, Robert Stehlik and his friends from the O’ahu wing foiling crew share their incredible journey from Maui to Molokai and the subsequent Molokai Holokai race. The video captures stunning footage and provides insights into the experiences of the participants, making it a must-watch for foiling enthusiasts. The adventure begins with Derek, Kevin, and Matt, who join Robert for a long weekend in Maui. They kick off the trip with a Maliko run on Thursday, amidst light winds that soon pick up, setting a promising tone for the upcoming races. Derek captures captivating footage, while Kevin and Matt share their first-time experiences and the camaraderie that binds the group. Race day arrives with excitement and anticipation. The team dons pink shirts, fuels up, and heads to the starting line. The video showcases the impressive turnout, with 120 standup paddle foilers ready to race. Despite expecting lighter winds, the conditions turn out to be perfect, adding to the thrill of the race. Matt recounts his navigational challenges and the beauty of the surroundings, highlighting the unique aspects of the race. Derek, ever the team player, stops to help a fellow racer in distress, showcasing the spirit of sportsmanship that defines the event. This act of kindness, however, doesn’t deter his performance as he continues to capture amazing footage and finishes the race strong. The video transitions to the next day, featuring the Kamalo run along the Molokai coast. The smaller race allows the crew to enjoy a fast, exhilarating sprint. Robert and Matt discuss their equipment choices and strategies, emphasizing the importance of having the right gear for varying conditions. The camaraderie and shared experiences create a sense of unity and joy among the participants. One standout moment is Eli’s perseverance as he completes the race with a ripped center strut on his wing, demonstrating resilience and determination. The crew reflects on the challenges and learnings, with Matt humorously earning the nickname “Matt Hotfoot Tarini” for his barefoot escapades on Molokai’s hot asphalt. The video captures not just the competitive spirit but also the fun and enjoyment of the sport. Kevin’s reflections on the breathtaking views and the overall experience underline the essence of wing foiling – it’s not just about winning but also about the joy of being on the water and sharing moments with friends.

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 What an honor to have Robby Naish on the show!  He really needs no introduction: 27 times windsurfing world champion and a pioneer in kite surfing, Stand Up Paddle boarding, foiling and wing foiling. The first time he became a windsurfing world champion was at only 13 years old, traveling by himself to the Bahamas. This interview gives you insight of how Robbie Naish grew up and how he lives his life today.

Show transcript:

Aloha friends! It's Robert Stehlik. Welcome to another episode of the Blue Planet Show. Today's show is extra special. I know it's been a while since the last episode, but I ran into Robbie Naish a few weeks ago at a race in Kailua and he agreed to come onto the show. So I'm super stoked to have him as a guest.

Really interesting stories. Robby Naish really needs no introduction. 27 times windsurfing world champion,  pioneer. First time he became a windsurfing world champion was when he was 13 years old, traveling by himself to the Bahamas. Great stories. I found a few new things about him. For example, He was going to study art at UC Santa Cruz if he hadn't become a professional wind surfer.

And he also designed the first Naish logo when his dad started making boards under the Naish label. So I think this interview gives you a really nice insight of how Robbie Naish He lives his life today and hope to get some more time with him soon. As I always like to ask a lot of questions.

So he had to go to a photo shoot. I didn't get to ask all the questions I wanted. So hopefully I can get Robbie back again. But for now without further ado, please enjoy this interview with Robbie Naish. All right, Robbie Naish. So good to have you on the Blue Planet show. Welcome.  Right on. Thanks, Robert.

Good to be here. Yeah. So a couple of weeks ago I just ran into you and Kailua. They had the  race over there and that was super fun. And then I saw you were on a wing foil board with a seven meter wing, even though it was like a really windy day. So just let's talk a little bit about that.

How was that experience?  It was fun. I was over there anyway and Dez and the crew were like, Oh, you should join this fun race they're doing. I didn't want to actually enter,  but figured I'd go over and, chase people around. So I did the course sorta. And, I'm not  really into racing, so to speak, but obviously, I'm old school, like I'm not doing loops and fricking spins and everything on the foil.

My body's not as forgiving as it used to be. And I know I'll hurt myself. An injury at this point is something I'm really trying to avoid. So I'm blasting around. I'm trying to go as fast as I can. I'm jumping high, but just not doing rotations, really enjoying winging  and pushing the envelope of what I would call free ride gear.

So You know, not full on speed or race gear, but taking gear that I can use for anything and trying to make it go as fast as it can go.  And in terms of wing size  is that pretty much always means like windsurfing. If you're really going fast,  you're going to use as big.  a wing as possible even to the point where most guys are out on fours and you'll be on a seven.

It's just the way that, aerodynamics work in power and efficiency of foils. So  you ride pretty lit when you're trying, especially upwind, you can handle a really big wing. Feathering upwind at a real high angle of attack. There's a point at which you just can't keep the thing in the water anymore reaching, and you've got to scale down the size of your foil at least.

But I tend to ride pretty big wings here.  Yeah, even back in the days of wing wind surfing I remember you were always more on a bigger sail than most of the other guys, right?  Yeah  Wave sailing is different even here. It's the same like most guys would be out at he'll keep on like a 4.0 or 3.0. And I'll be  historically on a five, Oh, four, seven, that's changed.

I've scaled down to where I'm writing smaller sales than I used to. Like my average sale now over here is a four or five. I'll hardly ever even go on a four, seven, just cause the way the equipment has evolved, it's changed. The boards are shorter, they're easily overpowered. You ride a bigger sale. 

And you'll tend to stuff the nose a lot. They just balance better with a smaller sail.  But it's more the difference between, say, wave sailing and slalom racing or course racing, where even today on the really short, really wide slalom boards,  The guys are using  seven meters when you'd be on a five, a wave sail,  four or five way.

They're carrying giant rigs and then most of the guys are a hundred kilos as well to hold them down. So it's really different when you're trying to go fast, you'll use a. A flatter, bigger  sail and then just get up on the fin or as it may be up on the foil.  All right. Cool. Yeah, like my interviews can tend to go pretty long, but you just told me that you have a photo shoot today.

I guess this week you're doing some photo shoots for Naish. I'll try to respect. I'll try to respect that. Keep it to an hour or so.  But, I always like to start at the very beginning. Talk a little bit, and for me, I grew up in Germany and I'm, I guess about five years younger than you.

And and you were like my idol, so cool for me to be able to just have a conversation with you and all that. But in, and it's a big reason why I got, came to Maui to windsurf and ended up living here too. So thanks for that. But yeah, so talk a little bit about growing up in Kailua and, like you had, you won your first world title at 13 years old.

And talk a little bit about that time, like growing up and how you got into windsurfing and or you actually your very first earliest memories of just like enjoying water sports or getting into the ocean and that you remember.  Yeah it was about a five hour story. I'll try to give you the consultative version.

I got plenty of time.  My whole life has been a series of right place, right time.  I've just been blessed and lucky. Very lucky many times over. So my dad, both my parents are from California. My dad grew up in La Jolla  and he was a surfer lifeguard at wind and sea. Started coming to Hawaii in the fifties to surf, was one of the first guys to surf Waimea, Makaha, places like that.

He's actually in the first surfer magazine ever published dropping in at Waimea. And so he was an ocean guy  and  moved to Hawaii,  three kids already. My brother, Randy, who's a year and a half older than I am, myself and my sister when they moved to Hawaii,  when I was, I think almost four years old,  fortunately. 

Basically, he took a teaching job at Roosevelt High School.  And was a science teacher  and packed up the family, moved to Hawaii so he could surf.  So I don't really remember, much as a kid in California, my whole childhood memories. I've got a strange mind too, like my parents remember everything from their whole life.

My brother remembers everything. And I've got this strange selective memory where, there's all periods. I don't remember anything at all. But I certainly remember growing up in Kailua. Which was  the world's best place for a kid to grow up. My dad surfed, so we grew up at the beach.

He got one of the first Hobie cats in Hawaii when Hobies were launched. So he had a Hobie 14 and was racing Hobies for years and years. He was.  He's a state champion in the Hobie 14 like five times. And when they launched the Hobie 16, started racing 16s. And I don't know how many times on that he was national champion on the Hobie 16 in 1972. 

And  it was really a good Hobie sailor.  And so we were pretty much at the beach all the time. We lived up right up from Lani Kai boat ramp in Kailua next to Lani Kai elementary school. My parents still live there  and so I could walk to the beach and surf Kailua shore break.  My dad let us surf Flat Island.

Once we, Could show that we could swim from the boat ramp to flat and back. Then we were allowed to surf the flat. And that was when I was in, I don't know, third grade, fourth grade.  And it was the only time flat was ever really good was when it was super windy trade. So then you paddle out and back then it was before leashes.

You lose your board. And by the time you swimming in your board, it's halfway to the boat ramp. But just love growing up in Kailua. I didn't even own a pair of slippers until I was in like the third grade. It was barefoot, everything, barefoot, flag football,  barefoot basketball, barefoot track, barefoot to school.

 Didn't have a lot of money. My dad had. Three kids pretty quickly after four kids, on a high school public school teacher's job. But you would never know it, as a kid and in Hawaii, at least at that point,  you didn't need a lot of money to have an amazing life. A lot of high water pants, that kind of thing where you have to wear your pants and you're still wearing them to school and you got all your ankles showing.

But growing up in Kailua at that point was amazing best place in the world that I think the best time in the world.  So really lucky. And then got into windsurfing. Fortunately,  when I was in the sixth grade, 1974, discovered it, my brother and I had a little Hobie 12, that little semi catamaran monohull.

thing that Hobie made.  We had it down at Kailua one day and there were a few windsurfers in Hawaii at the time. Mike Corgan, Larry Stanley, Ken Clyde, a few other guys and they set some buoys and they were doing little triangle races and asked if  Randy, my brother, and I wanted to race with them on our Hobie.

And that's how we met.  And so I was 11 years old at the time  and we became friends.  I asked if I could try the windsurfer. I couldn't even pull the sail out of the water. It wasn't tall enough. There's a whole leverage thing in the beginning. Cause at that point there was only one wind surfer.

There was the 12 foot plastic board, one size sail, one boom, one dagger board. It wasn't an industry yet. Yeah. It was hard to pull that sail out of the water, right? Yeah. 72 pounds or whatever. But I just loved it. I went with Thor and Stan, they'd sail with me inside of them and let go and I could, ride along for a bit.

Got that, that feel of gliding on the water. And I was absolutely hooked, it's everything I loved. It was surfing, skimboarding, sailing, just that first feeling of being able to grab the wind and go and make it all work was  just absolutely addicting. And from that point forward.  I was just on a mission.

I'd go down to the beach after school. I go down on weekends and those guys were like teaching windsurfing.  And so guys would of course drift down the beach  and then I'd spend my day walking down and so they didn't have to drag their gear back up the beach upwind. I'd go down and say, Hey, I'm going to sail your board back up for you.

And so I'd take their board, I'd sail it back up, wait for the next guy, sail it back out, go, Hey, can I borrow your windsurfer for a bit? So I was that pestery little kid who was just. At the beach all the time, honing my skills and trying to get as much time on the water as I could. And then, of course, still surfing a lot  at the same time and shore break and whatnot. 

Paddling canoe, paddled from Lonnie Kipe Canoe Club to Steersman in the, I don't know what the youngest bracket was, 10, 11, 12 years old.  And Started saving my money. I made paper shell necklaces. I airbrushed t shirts. I babysat whatever to make money to buy my own board. And in late 74 bought my own windsurfer for 340, which was a lot of money back then, but for a complete rig. 

And that was the beginning won the Hawai'i regional championships in 76 that  got me an air ticket from windsurfer international to the national championships in Berkeley, California.  And a group of guys from Hawai'i went to that.  I think Thor, Larry Stanley, Dennis Davidson, Pat Love, some of the local Kailua guys. 

And so I traveled with them  and I got second in Berkeley to Mike Waltz  and he already had a ticket to the world somehow from the year before, and I ended up getting his ticket, so that's what got me to the Bahamas in 1976  to the world championship.  And, as conditions was that would have it, I was really fast when the wind was light because I was small and light  had a real advantage over the heavy guys.  And I won in the Bahamas  and  that got me an airfare to the next year's world championship  in Sardinia in 77 went to Sardinia, I won there, which gave me a ticket to Cancun in 78. I won there and it gave me a ticket to the next year. And so I went from free airfare to free airfare. 

Until I graduated from Punahou, I was public school, went to Lanikai Elementary, Kailua Intermediate, Kalaheo in freshman year, and then luckily I somehow got into Punahou for my last three years. So 10, 11, 12th grade, I went to Punahou, graduated in 81. Okay.  Sorry to interrupt you, but let's go. I just want to go back to you going to, to the Bahamas when you're 13 year old.

I guess your parents didn't come with you. You were just on, on your own as a 13 year old. Just talk a little bit about that experience. That just seems. So far removed from what most 13 year olds get to experience. Yeah. In hindsight, I don't know how my parents let me do that. I think the world was a different place, man,  cell phones, no internet. It was like, you're fricking gone  the world, but they let me go. I Wilkings, who was a local photographer from Honolulu, who was a surf photographer, windsurf photographer in the early days. And he went to be the staff photographer for Windsurfer International in the Bahamas. 

And so I flew with him  and slept on his floor. You got a free hotel room there.  So I slept on his floor and did the event and yeah, I just can't believe my parents let me go there. I was a pretty responsible kid,  but yeah, I was still 13. And everyone else is older than you and you just showed up and got to the start and just took off where, what happened, how was it?

How was the racing? It was, it was a regatta, sailing regatta. So triangle races, you usually did. Three,  three to four races a day,  right? You do a morning race and then you'd go and do a back to back race after that Olympic triangle racing. So upwind reach upward, downwind upwind finish. 

And in those days they had weight classes and an overall, so they'd race the different weight race weight classes against each other. And I was a lightweight, obviously.  And Conditions were pretty light in the Bahamas, fortunately. And I was really fast and technically pretty good. My dad taught me, a lot of tactics, how to start, different rules and back then that was a big part of it was quite tactical, especially light wind course racing. 

And so yeah, I won after that, they stopped doing weight classes cause the heavy guys were like, forget it. I don't want to race against the light guys like that anymore. And then from then on, it was just divisional weight class titles.  Yeah, it was an amazing experience cruising around. I hung out with Mike Waltz and Matt Schweitzer and guys like that.

There were, a few years older than me, but at the time, if you're 13 and you're hanging out with a 16 year old, it's like, Oh, the guy's so old, guys in their twenties are like ancient when you're a little kid.  So it was quite an experience. Really enjoyed it. And again, just incredibly lucky to have even had the opportunity, one, to have got the free air ticket there because I couldn't have gone otherwise.

And the fact that my parents somehow let me go as well.  Yeah, so that's awesome. And then you were able to just parlay that into more and more tickets to more and more events and just kept going from there. But what would you say did you have a secret to your success?

Like, How did you just keep winning and stay on top of the game? Like what was your special sauce that you, is there something you can share? At that point as an amateur racing windsurfer glass, I think luck was a big part of it that I often had conditions that just perfectly suited My weight, cause I was really light compared to most guys, even in the classes,  but I also had a pretty unfair advantage of  training in Hawaii, where we've got, a pretty short period of time between 74 and 76.

I probably had  twice as much water time as almost everybody else in the event who came from places where it's seasonal, or cold and, not very much wind, in Hawaii, you've got that trade wind.  At least enough for a,  an old Winster where you could sell every day. And so then the hours that I had under my belt, even as a little kid. 

I think really helped and then  I'm just pretty focused as well. I wasn't there for the fun. I wasn't there for the social aspect. I was there to  do the best I could do. And I hated losing even as a little kid. And so I was pretty driven to try to succeed, to avoid that feeling of losing. It wasn't the thrill of winning.

It was really that the fear of losing that was a big driver for me. But again just lucky good conditions. I was really good at picking up boards. Like you show up at the event and there's this huge pile of boards cause it's a one design, right? Everybody's racing with, here's a sail, here's a dagger board, here's a mast, a boom.

Base and go pick up a board out of the pile.  And it wasn't really super technological. Then they had a plastic shell. They'd stick a big metal rod in the back of the board and pump it full of expanding foam, pull the rod out and the board blows up into the mold. And so  some boards would weigh 40 pounds.

Some boards would weigh like 45 pounds. The rockers were different. And most people didn't even have a clue. And I'd spend a half an hour in the board area, picking it up, every board, looking at the rockers and trying to find the lightest board that I could. Usually the lightest boards were underblown and also then had the flattest rails and flatter rocker as they're overblown, they'd get round. 

And I was just amazed that, all these adults running around hadn't a clue. No idea that was the case, but I'd go around and look for that magic board. And go, Oh, this is the one. And then  I refoiled my dagger boards. The dagger boards were made out of wood and they were just like super Mickey mouse.

And so I'd refoil my dagger board. I'd travel with a rasp and a file and sandpaper and make my dagger board, like a really nice foil.  So yeah, just, I don't know, maybe took it more seriously than a lot of the guys that were there to just have fun.

I just listened to another podcast of and you talked about. That you actually learned German at Punahou school when you're at school. I always assumed that you learned it from your parents or something like that. Growing up, but you actually learned in school. And I guess that's because you could speak German that like Germans always loved you and you're like a big sports star in Germany.

When I was growing up, like everybody knew Robbie Naish, yeah, again, it was lucky to be, to have those three years at Punahou. And then  I was saying earlier, windsurfing turned pro through all those years on winds class I was in amateur. And in those days,  amateur professional was this absolute  black line.

If you earned $1 as an athlete, you were a pro and you couldn't go to the Olympics. And the wind went in the Olympics in 1984, so I graduated in 81.  And it happened to be the year that the sport turned professional. There are all these manufacturers now there was money, there were pro events, and I had to make that decision.

Do I stay an amateur, go to college  and then try to get to the Olympics in 84  on the wind glider, which was a piece of crap. Different brand at Windsor, or do I turn pro and see where that takes me? So I deferred admissions to college for a year and went pro,  but yeah, again, it was luck I went to Punahou and it's you had Japanese, Chinese, Spanish, German, French, and all these options for foreign language.

And I'm like I knew some Germans, through windsurfing, I had some like pen pals some German friends that started writing me early on. But the 1770s were all taking German  and everyone was like, oh you're crazy German's so hard. I don't know. It made sense and again it was luck. I had this teacher, Frau Nehler at Puno Frau Nehler's so hard.

She's so mean and I thought she was just awesome and I actually learned, from her, I, or  so much. And so I use that, through the eighties,  windsurfing just boomed in Europe, as Germany was,  and then still is always the world's biggest market for these sports. And so it really gave me an advantage, promotionally connecting with fans and going to the German events, going to ISPO, going to Dusseldorf Messe. 

And And I had fun with it as well, like I'd sit around and listen and people didn't, in the beginning, know, even realize that I knew what they were saying. And then slowly started speaking, get to go on German TV shows and slowly, speak more and more. And now I'm, I wouldn't say I'm fluent, but I'm pretty much conversationally at least  fluent.

And it's helped my career again, just right place, right time, lucky decision.  And yeah.  Yeah, I guess it's funny because my our kid goes to Puno, they're going to graduate this year and Puno always brags about how high their percentage of kids are that go to go on to college. So you're probably one of those failures that didn't make it to college. 

Never made it, fortunately.  But yeah, I wouldn't say that you're a failure though in life. So I can't see that. Yeah, sometimes going to college is not necessarily the best thing for everybody, right? Yeah, I certainly wouldn't be where I am today if I had gone to college. Okay.

So let's talk a little bit about starting your professional career. So I guess you were torn between becoming professional, going to the Olympics and then what, when did you start making money with windsurfing? Like when did that become your job?  Yeah, pretty much before I graduated from high school, even we had our first pro prize money events.

So I wasn't taking any sponsor money, but we had two events,  the Maui speed crossing, which Arnaud Derozenay put together, which was a race from Fleming Beach on Maui over to Molokai around that little, rock island on the east coast. Yeah. Coast of Molokai, a little bit like I don't know, a little Mokomanu, and then back to Maui. 

It was a full on open channel race and he thought he was going to smoke everybody. A bunch of us flew over from Oahu  and I won that and it was a thousand dollars prize money.  And so I'm like, Oh, I didn't know what to do. So I donated  half of it to the U. S. Olympic Committee and half of it to the U. S.

Olympic I can't remember, but I donated all the prize money so that I could retain my amateur status because I was still trying to figure out what to do. And then it,  almost immediately there were announcements of other pro windsurfing events with prize money around the world.  And I had at that point, again, luckily at the same time sponsors offering me contracts.

My first paid sponsor was O'Neill Wetsuits.  And  then Mistral  and then Gastrin had just, everything started to fall into place where I said, okay, forget it. I was going to go to University of Santa Cruz, UC Santa Cruz.  And deferred. Said, okay, I'll give it a year, see where this takes me.  And fortunately, I'm still giving it a year.

Every year and seeing where it takes me. Did you did you have an idea of what you wanted to study if you went to UC Santa Cruz?  Yeah, I was really into art and did a lot of art through school, sculpture, glassblowing. I've been airbrush painting since I was a little kid,  but I knew I couldn't major in art.

So I was going to major in child psychology. I really like little kids. I like to babysit. I was like that weird boy that did the babysitting in the neighborhood because the girls were all irresponsible and I was responsible. That's  I was going to, at least the idea was I was going to major in child psychology and minor in art. 

Wow. Okay.  Yeah, that's cool. Okay. So then you got sponsored and then I guess then also Quicksilver  became a big sponsor, right? Like how did that come about? , same thing. I  got connected with Quicksilver because some of the first big events in the sport were in Australia. We had the Rip Curl Quicksilver Classic in Torquay.

And that started in about 82, 83, 84. We ran for several years. In Torquay, Australia, which was this tiny little surf town. If you go there now, you don't even recognize it compared to what it was in the early eighties, it's just giant, like everything else in the world. But Rip Curl and Quicksilver were right next to each other.

Rip Curl only did wetsuits. Quicksilver only did board shorts and t shirts. I met the guys and at that point, obviously you could be. O'Neill and Quicksilver because O'Neill only made wetsuits. That was it. No t shirts, no clothing, no nothing. And Quicksilver only made clothing. So I was O'Neill Quicksilver for many years until they both grew and both started, Quicksilver started doing wetsuits, O'Neill started doing clothing.

And after, several years of being sponsored by both, I had to make a decision  to go with one or the other and yeah. Was really good friends with the O'Neill family, Jack O'Neill, Pat O'Neill. It was tough to leave those guys, but made sense economically because at that point I had become an initial investment partner in the license for Quicksilver Europe.

Four friends. And myself brought Quicksilver to Europe and formed a company in France called Napoli.  And we had the license for Quicksilver Europe.  And so I was one of the founding partners in that. And that grew and grew. We were the first Quicksilver in the world to really start doing non surf clothing.

There was a short summer, so we started doing jackets and we started doing ski stuff. And I remember the neon clothing and all that. Yeah, the war paint overalls and all that stuff. That was a fun time. And we grew that company, to a pretty big company before we finally sold it to Quicksilver Inc, Quicksilver USA in 1981. 

And Yeah,  again, nice.  Yeah. Okay. We don't really have time to talk about everything, but let's go into I guess the sponsorship thing, and actually when did your parents start that actual Naish brand? Because I know you didn't actually start Naish, the Naish brand, but like, how did that come about?

Get started. Like, how did your parents get into making boards and all that? Yeah my, my dad started making boards in the garage, not even a garage, carport,  at our house in Kailua,  almost right away. He started windsurfing maybe,  I don't know,  eight or nine months after I did.  He he took sabbatical from teaching,  which is where, a teacher takes the year off and goes and gets further education and does stuff. 

And so he took my windsurfer every day that I was at school and was down at Kailua learning how,  and he got really into it. And at that point there was a lot of room for improvement, especially in Hawaiian conditions on that big plastic windsurfer. So he started making boards in the garage.  In 77 already  and experimenting and playing around.

And it was  not long thereafter 79.  He started, shaping more, doing more boards. And he did the Minstrel Naish board and the Minstrel Kailua which were put into production by Minstrel in Switzerland. It was a Swiss company at that point.  And then in 1980, quit teaching and started working for them full time. 

And it was, I think they moved out of the garage and into the little warehouse on Hikili street in Kailua  in 79, and that's when Naish forwarded it. Was formerly started doing custom boards for other people and the custom board market grew and grew and grew and  ended up making a factory on Hikili street, full on custom board, every single one by hand, really different than today.

But at one point where they were doing a thousand boards a year out of that little factory in Kailua and shipping them all over the world was, an amazing period in windsurfing during that boom through the  late 80s early 90s and everyone hand airbrushed and  It's a cool period.

So they definitely started the brand and I was lucky to have, through my entire  pro career, the days of the Pan Am cup days into the world cup days.  Always the best boards in the world from Harold Leakey, who started working with my dad and my dad as a team.  And it wasn't until  the winter of  95, 96, that I started Naish sales Hawaii and started doing my own windsurfing sales.

And the logo that you're still using today is basically the original logo. I mean that from the very beginning, right? That kind of that Naish. No, the script, the scripty Naish with the sail. I did for my parents. Oh, that was your artwork.  And then  the new one is different. It's not a script. But yeah, that was actually a little complicated because we had the awesome local, custom board business.

And then I started that international sale business and called it the same thing. And there were trademark issues and whatnot in the beginning, but it eventually all worked itself out and became. One, one entity, one brand.  Yeah, I've got a sticker drawer right here. Let me grab one. So these are some of the current, currently used logos, but Robbie's gonna pull out an old sticker of his original logo.  That's awesome. So yeah, these are the  Remember the rice papers?  Yeah. 

Oh, it's backwards for you guys, no? No, I can see it. Yeah. That's so cool.  So you actually drew this when you were probably an art student at Punahou school.  Yeah. Yeah, good  days.  Yeah. Really lucky. Okay, so you were a professional windsurfer traveling around the world and,  Sponsored by you got plenty sponsorship money coming in.

So what made you decide, okay, I'm going to just start making my own sales or start my own business. Like how did that happen?  I was certainly not because  I ever want to do.  It was more of a necessity. The sales sponsor that I had been with my entire pro career, Gastra, at that time had been bought and sold and bought and sold several times. 

And. It got to the point where it got sold again and the new owners were just taking it in a direction that I  wasn't comfortable with  and  we had a team of guys, myself, Pete Cabrini, Don Montague Pat Correll, an administrative guy. And we were all doing the work for gastro based here on Maui  and these new owners were going to just dismantle it and move everything to Hong Kong  and do all the development there, basically, get rid of the team guys.

And I just was like, wow, this is,  it sounds super lame. I don't want to do that.  And  I didn't, it would have been weird to go to Neil pride, for example. After, years and years of one sponsor to switch. I wasn't that kind of guy. I never switched sponsors.  And  so I just said, fuck it.

Let's do our own thing.  And I'll  just  bite the bullet, keep the team together, continue making stuff the way we want to do it.  And sorry to interrupt, but so Pete Cabrinha was part of that team and then he started his own brand later or like how?  Yeah several years later, once we started doing kites,  So Pete was marketing, it was obviously still involved with R and D and whatnot.

So Don Montague was the main sale designer. Pete did marketing, graphics. He was always really I would say a gifted artist. He still is, now he's pretty much out of the industry and just pursuing his art and doing really well, but he's always been really creative.  And yeah, for the first several years, we, we started Naish Sales Hawaii  basically in, in 96  and it wasn't until 99 that we started doing kites and that's where everything really exploded for the 2000 season. 

And it was just after that, that Pete got approached by Neil Pride to start doing Cabrini cause they wanted to do kiting, but they didn't want to do it with the Neil Pride brand. Because it was like this at that point between windsurfers and, oh, kiting's bad. And  like in the first couple of years, we were the only ones in the industry, and  of course they all came in after the fact, but for a while they were all pissed at me for doing kites because they thought it was bad for the windsurfing industry.

So yeah. And Pete Cabrino was basically grew up with you in Kailua. Like you guys were always winging and working together in Kailua and stuff, right? Yeah. Yeah, he's a  couple of years older than me. You're like my brother's age, which when you're little is a lot, but of course, as we grew up, grew older, we became partners in crime,  did the tour together.

He did the it was not the PWA tour. It started out as WSMA tour. And then  the WBA tour had a lot of name changes over the years. But in the first several years of professional windsurfing, Pete was, you The  Mistral gastro team with me, we traveled around and had lots of fun together. And then I guess most of your boards in the beginning were shaped by your dad, right?

And then I think, when did Harold Iggy start making Naish boards? And I think Jerry Lopez made some boards too, right? Yeah Jerry was later on when we were doing stand up. And so  2000, after 2008, once we got into stand up, we worked together for several years. Still really good for friends,  but you have Harold that you started working with my dad quite early on.

Early eighties  and, they were an unbelievable team, they kind of shape and come up with concepts and whatnot together. And then Harold would do the shapes and Rick would do everything after that, all the sandwich and laminations and  sanding and whatnot, and then they were literally  amazing, the two of them worked so well together, personality wise, craftsmanship wise, it was It was amazing. 

And then Harold, unfortunately passed in 2012.  Yeah.  So who who does the board design now? Do you, are you directly involved or like how closely are you involved with design and so on? Yeah. Since I sold the operating companies a little over a year ago,  I'm less hands on every single thing that happens as there was before,  but Mickey Schweiger and I have been doing pretty much all the board designs for anything directional.

Like I was doing all the directional kite boards and then Mickey and I were doing all the standups and all the windsurf boards the last several years. Different guys do the twin tips, Des Walsh and some of the engineers do the twin tip stuff.  And, Mickey's gotten to the point where he's  really good and doesn't really need me overseeing what he does.

We've got such an incredible template of stuff, a legacy of shapes that we're building from.  And the way everything is digital now, there's no more hand shaping foam. There hasn't been, for really a long time, well over a decade. Yeah. So when you say that you designed the directional boards, like you actually sit in front of the computer and design the shapes and everything.

Yeah. Cause yeah, really your design. I did every directional kite board for years. And, after Harold passed, we've pretty much been doing the boards.  Digitally ever since. And even a little bit before that, there was a transition from hand shape as technology improved. And we were able to duplicate things a lot more accurately doing it.

On a shaping machine and sending digital files rather than sending plugs to the factory, having to digitize the plugs and then hope that the molds afterwards come out something like the plug that you had sent. And so it's much more precise now. And add a little bit of rocker or change the rocker line slightly or being able to do stuff like that.

You can't really do that. Hand shaping it, obviously. Yeah. You can,  especially on bigger boards, it's a bit harder, when you're doing a five, one kite board, things are compact enough that you can make micro changes pretty easily without affecting other stuff, but we were doing it now.

You can make incremental changes. You can make three prototypes. They're exactly the same except for one specific change on each one.  And know that you're not throwing in a bunch of other variables where you're like was it that was different or that was different? Then that kind of accuracy is. 

Yeah, it is amazing to have  and,  yeah, so Mickey's handling the majority of the designs now and he just sends them to me and I check them over and we'll tweak them. But he's the one that's sitting, in front of the computer the vast majority of the time and I'm just giving him some checks going, yeah, you should have bought that tail or I think we should, carry that rocker a little further. 

Whatever. And I still really enjoy that aspect of it. The design aspect has always been fun. As long as it doesn't become work.  Yeah. So let's talk a little bit about business. You were obviously very hands on and the running the business. You're basically the CEO. And then you said you sold a lot of it a year ago.

So what's your involvement now? And are you still a part owner? Do you like, yeah. So what is your role in the business now? Yeah it's complicated. I just, I got to the point, cause we grew and grew over the years and it was always fun. It was never my priority. I was always in my head, a pro athlete, and I also had this business.

And I wasn't living and dying from the business. I was living and dying from my pro athlete income.  And  I don't know if it was age or just time. You start to look at things differently as you get older, risk starts to become different, stress you handle differently.  We were always successful.

We always made money, but I was just getting really worn down with the pressure of the business side of the business. I'm the only shareholder. I was self financed. I had no bank LC. I had no investment partners. So I was floating millions of dollars. Of risk capital in an industry where your margins are pretty fine.

You're living and dying by a couple of percent. We're always successful and it didn't matter, but life changed. I got divorced. It changed my whole outlook on life and my financial situation as well getting older and looking at how much risk you're willing to take, and I just said, God, I've worked my whole life to get here.

Liability risks becomes a factor that you worry about where you don't really worry about that when you're younger.  And the stress became unhealthy and, importers owing you money and dealing with factories and, just having that much money in  limbo all the time. The employees I love, but at some point you start to worry about your employees too and their livelihood.

And if you make a mistake, it affects them and their whole families. And it just became this vicious circle of stress. And I became I think too conservative in my approach, my outlook, I became really protectionary, operating through fear rather than through through enjoyment on the financial side and on the risk assessment side  and just decided it was time to pull the plug on that aspect of it.

I love design. I love working with the guys. I love the sports. I love riding. I love testing,  but It started to become real work and real stress. And  so I found a way out where I basically sold the operating companies. I sold Nalukai Incorporated, Pacific Border Sports. So I sold my US distribution company and I sold the  main international business.

I still own the Naish trademarks I still own the brand  and can do, clothing and whatnot. And I'm looking at doing some different things there that seem fun. And working with the new owners under license. Kubis Sports out of the Netherlands, out of Holland, now runs the operating companies.

And they work under license and I work with them, just helping them in any way that I can, trying to guide them,  especially in these first few years to keep what I hope is the right trajectory and keep the team stoked. And obviously they're changing a lot of things administratively and whatnot, but I think we'll be good in the end. 

So yeah, it left all the fun stuff. I get to work with Mickey and Des and Noah and the crew. I get to, enjoy all the fun stuff. Testing and writing and doing photo shoots. But somebody else has the headache of financing the business and dealing with the importers and dealing with the deadlines and dealing with all the  tech sheets and all that stuff that was dragging me down.

That sounds like a great great solution. And you probably still get the percentage for the licensing fee, right? So like you said, the real profit margin is only like a few percent anyway. So if you can make that same percentage without doing, having all the risk and the work, then that sounds great.

Yeah. Good, good for you. So you enjoying life a little bit more. I just watched a YouTube video yesterday where you were super charging your engine on your VW bus and took a couple of days. It looked like of tinkering in your garage. To be able to have time to do stuff like that, that stuff you enjoy and you're passionate about, that's super important too.

Yeah. Yeah, the quality of life for me personally,  it just, it was literally like popping the cork.  On a bottle that was about to explode.  And so I'm really enjoying riding again, everything. I'm kiting a lot, windsurfing a lot. I'm still, I'm doing standup a lot. I'm the only guy out there on standup sometimes, winging, winging all the time, foiling so really enjoying the sporting side.

I'm way healthier. I'm more fit. I'm certainly mentally more fit. by not having to carry around the stress 24 hours a day that I was carrying around.  Spending, a lot of time with the family, flying to Kailua a lot, spending time with my parents who are both still around and doing great.

My daughter Nani and my granddaughters live in Kailua, my brothers are still in Kailua. So going back and forth to Oahu a lot again.  So yeah, in general, knock on wood, again, it was the right decision at the right time. Really lucky to have been able to do it.  While I'm still young enough and healthy enough to do it.

To be able to continue to love what I do and have the passion for the sports that are driving me through my whole life and so yeah, i'm Super blessed super stoked  and having a lot of fun at the moment. Yeah, that's awesome And it's so cool to when I look at your facebook page. You just still Actively involved in everything, windsurfing, kiting, stand up paddling, foiling, it's like you do it all and still doing it really well.

So it's just a good, you're a good role model for a lot of older guys like, like myself too, but just like to be able to do all of that. And I think also, obviously a lot of the people that, the older windsurfers that kind of.  Participating a lot now are getting into wing foiling.

And and this is supposed to be a wing full podcast, so we haven't really talked about wing foiling at all yet, but let's talk a little bit about that. How did you get into it? And then where do you think it's going? I was just thinking, the, that whole progression of wind surfing from the wind surfer to like foot straps and going shorter and riding waves.

And that, and then doing the first four loop or something like that, it took like decades. And now in wing foiling, it's not even one season, they're going from like single rotation to now they're doing like triple rotation jumps and stuff like that. It's The progression is like so much faster.

It's like on steroids. Yeah, so And then I guess wind surfing a lot of people said that it became too high performance for the average person, you know Where early on it was just like people just enjoyed cruising on a lake back going back and forth and light wind or whatever now That's not really cool anymore and so it that whole side of the sport died off and there's no easy entry into the sport Do you see the same thing happening in wing foiling or like how?

Yeah. So where do you see when wing fulling going?  Yeah. It's doing energy yesterday and it was the same thing where, you know, windsurfing grew up  in  the time of magazines and trade shows and  development was nice and methodical and slow. You'd start working on something and you'd finish it, implement it into production and six months.

It would be. At a trade show a few months later, it'd be in the magazines. The first time someone would see it when they'd get the magazine and, open it up and check it out.  Kiting was a transition from that into the beginnings of the internet. Stand up pretty much same thing. Most of the people in the beginning got their news and their information from magazines and. 

Wing foiling is the only one that's from start to finish.  Sorry. Photo shoot guys. Does that mean we're running into our deadline here,  ? I know, I was just calling wing foiling  from the very beginning like that, that first shot of me riding up wind at Kaha on our first four six original wing surfer. 

went  around the entire world that night, right? And that's what started it all. And every single progression is instant now. It's like you test something new, it's on the internet that night, the guys around the world are already, trying to do it the next day, both in terms of the gear and in terms of the writing.

So the progression is so fast and we've got an entire information packet from a construction standpoint, from a development standpoint of all the other sports behind us, technically that are helping to advance the wing foiling equipment too. So the  experimentation is starting with a really high knowledge base.

And I was hoping it would say simple, stupid for a long time because the longer a support stays like basic one model, slow changes, the healthier it grows, right?  But man, within I used to be the only guy at Kanawha. I'd be Mickey and I down there testing and trying stuff.

There was nobody winging. It was like just us.  And within a year, there were like  20 guys. And now you go down there, there's a hundred guys. It's everybody's wing foiling. It's amazing how fast it's grown. And if you look at the progression, like you said, of the moves, what the kids are doing.  You see a kid who started winging five months ago and he's already doing back loops and trying all the rotations and  it's super awesome. 

But it is unfortunately with 60 brands already worldwide, everyone's stand up in the beginning where it was like, Oh yeah, here, I'm going to get into this business. It's already so flooded and so crazy.  That, it is what it is, and it's helping to grow it even faster. 

It's a shit show at the moment in this race to advance and make it higher tech and higher performance and more expensive and more complicated and more technical.  And I'm like, Oh, slow it down. But you can't, once that genie's out of the bottle, it's gone. And the stuff is getting higher and higher tech, more and more complicated, more and more expensive, higher and higher performance. 

But of course, there's still the basic, most people are going to get on a board. They're going to get a simple wing and they're. They're going to mow the lawn back and forth and that essence of just gliding on the water using the wind and especially how accessible winging is that you can do it with almost no wind.

You can have really good fun in dead flat water. You don't need any waves at all. Like kiting in the beginning, but even more accessible, I think, because you don't need. 30 meters of area. You don't have this, arc of death with your kite. You don't have trees and buildings and power lines that are an issue.

Winging is just so easy and accessible that aspect of it, I freaking love the fact that it's getting people on the water, like you said, older guys, it's the only sport at the moment where you see 70 year old guys getting into it and seven year old kids getting into it and everything in between and all of them stoked  and.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, unlike standup paddling, that was like never really a cool thing with young kids or whatever, but it's like wing foiling, like surfers are getting into foiling and then that gets them into wing foiling and just like the, yeah, wing foiling just seems to have a much broader appeal to everybody.

Yeah. Yeah. And it's just so much more. I think also just having the wing not attached to the board. It's just so much more freedom to do things and do new moves that you can't even think about doing on a windsurfer, right? Yeah, it's really opened up the playing field. Racing is unbelievable.

So high performance. It's the most accessible foil. Sailboat  in the world by far, and even in racing stuff is cheap compared to if you're going to go, look at the price of a moth or something like that, and the complexity of most foil sailing craft,  so super fast, super high performance, easy to learn, quick to learn.

And then just what you can do with it, from racing and speed to the wave stuff is absolutely insane. When you see what Cash and these guys are doing on actual breaking waves I want to stay the fuck away from white water. It scared the hell out of me on a foil, foil surfing.

I want to be out on the shoulder on a nice flowing bump,  but I don't think foil should be in the surf with surfers. I think that's freaking crazy. And even on a wing, I want to stay as far away from surfers as I can because even the good guys are going to eventually make a mistake and surfing with Ginsu knives is a bit scary.

But just that realm of options that you have with this sport of just going out on a lake and. I love just going out on a big wing of 556070 and almost no wind at all. And just cruising around and exploring. That's still super fun. And you can do that anywhere, any little lake, Bay, whatever. 

So yeah it's an awesome sport. Yeah. Yeah, no. And it's interesting to how stand up paddling blew up during the financial crisis, like 2008, 2009 and stuff. And then wing foiling blew up during the pandemic and became super big, really fast, probably faster than any other sport.

The growth rate, but it seems like also this the whole cycle is accelerating. Like you said now It's like kind of everybody has like piles of inventory and the in the market has Seemed like it plateaued really quickly. And and now it's like it's a it just changed so much in the last two years that how is that I guess you, you don't have to worry about it too much business wise, but but we've seen it, at our shop we went from having 50 percent of our sales being foil equipment.

Now it's maybe 10 percent and we're doing more standup again, which is interesting, like it seems like that's making a comeback. Is that the same for you guys or?  Yeah, ours has been pretty balanced and, we're, we were the first in  winging, so we were doing a lot of wings from the very beginning and  I anticipated the glut  that was coming after COVID, you could tell that everybody was bumping up production at the factories. 

And you could see that there was going to be way too much inventory. Because when everybody was home  with free time and free money from the government, not just in America, but all over the world, they're sitting around. They weren't allowed to travel. They weren't allowed to spend money on other things.

They had to do something close to home. Getting, Like here's some free time and some free money. So everybody bought, new tires for their truck and a lift kit and, wing stuff and foil stuff. And of course that had to end at some point, people have to work again. They don't have the free time anymore.

So a lot of people that wanted to buy those toys had already bought them. But how many, you're not going to buy a new oil every single year.  And yet all these companies were just pumping as much as they could to, you get it on the ground.  I think there was, by about, eight, nine months ago, there was like a three year supply of wings on the ground around the world, right?

All the major brands, three for nine 99, like  crazy, close out stuff, cause they just needed to turn up the inventory into cash. Naish wasn't so bad because there was an anticipation that it was coming. It was still not great. There was still, of course, when everybody else goes on closeout, You're expecting to go on and close out as well, regardless of how much stock you have.

And that's already healing itself. Some of the bigger brands are having real hard times now because they thought that trajectory was going to continue. And of course it doesn't. I was always really pessimistic in business. I'd always  plan for the worst and hope for the best. And a lot of other people just go, yeah, we're all in.

And  that's not a healthy way to run things, so there's some unhealthy brands out there at the moment even some pretty big ones. So  it's not going to be this way forever. It's like snowboarding and being everybody gets in, stand up at the beginning, everybody gets in and they do a couple of containers of stuff and then they realize, wow, business isn't as easy as I thought it was going to be.

And it settles back down.  But yeah, stand up, like I love stand up, I don't understand how all these guys that used to go stand up aren't doing it anymore. It's just as much fun now as it was in 2010.  It's just less crowded. All good. And like you were saying how accessible wing foiling is, but in comparison to that, stand up is 10 times easier.

Like any, but any overweight old American  tourist on the stand of paddleboard and paddle in flat water. If the board's wide enough and big enough. So it's not like foiling is definitely a little bit more take some skills and some water.  knowledge or you have to be a little bit into it,  terms of accessibility, I think stand up is still probably the most accessible sport for almost anybody, right?

Yeah. It's a recreational activity more than a sport at this point. So about 90 percent of the boards being sold in the world are inflatable. If you go to Europe, it's all inflatable. I was in Austria last Last summer  there were like a thousand standups out on this one tiny lake that I was doing a thing on and it's awesome It's getting people on the water and a certain percentage of those people stay with it end up buying a composite board or you know they're  Associated then with board riding water sports and they get into other things whether it be kiting or winging or whatever So whatever is getting people out on the water is a good thing  It's a good thing.

But I also, I hate  having people associate an inflatable water toy with standup paddling to me. It's just not the same thing, but yeah, I guess I just get people out on the water and just putz it around on the lake. Yeah. You might as well, there's no reason for it to have a 3, 000. Carbon race boards might as well take an inflatable.

It's going to do 90 percent the same thing out in the waves, like what we have, totally different story. Yeah. And then it sits in the garage for the rest of the year. After, I use it one or two weekends in the summer. So yeah, for that, I guess it does make sense. Can see that.  Yeah. Do you feel like when wing foiling has already plateaued or what where's it going?

Is it growing?  It's still growing. It's not growing at the pace. There's always that explosion in the beginning where you get that people coming in from other sports. That the crossover guys like, like me that are coming from kiting or windsurfing or whatever, and they're always the first in.

And then you get that boom of the next guys and  we've had that. And now it's slowed down to what's I think a more constant flow. But the fact that the demographic is so proud is it's going to continue. The fact that kids want to do it.  Middle aged people want to do it, older guys want to do it,  girls want to do it, women want to do it.

I mean it's absolutely appealing to the broadest group of people that any of the sports that I've ever done has.  And that  lends itself  to a pretty healthy future. You're not going to tap out your demographic quickly. It's not all 60 year old guys with money. It's not all  the fact that so many young people want to do it shows really good promise for a healthy future.

Yeah, and it's such a great way to get into foiling too. People that are curious about foiling, I always tell 'em like, obviously maybe going toying behind a boat or jet ski and maybe e foiling is a little bit easier for total beginners, but then wing foiling is really the next natural choice to, to figure out how to use a foil, right?

Yes, I, to me, it's the easiest way to learn. I've gotten people up on a foil in  half an hour, a few times back and forth on a stand up paddle board, telling them the right things, getting them on the foil board and they're up and riding, in that first day. But yeah, we have some recommendations. 

Prone or stand up is so much harder than winging. Yeah. Yeah. So what are some recommendations like for total beginners in terms of equipment and some tips that you give people when, like you said, first, learn the wing handling on a standup  and with a dagger board ideally.

Yeah. You even not just, most people just  want to jump on the water and jump on the board too quick.  You spend a lot of time with the wing on the beach until you really understand the dynamic in both directions. When the tip starts coming down, how do you get it back up? Just learning that feel of the wing and the wind.

And then getting on a board and combining it without the foil. So you're doing two things at once, not three. And then once you've got it where you can go in and out, both directions comfortably, and you're not fumbling with the wing all the time, then you move on to the foil. And then remember to keep, keeping that pressure straight down on the foil.

I was trying to tell people, you're not trying to take off like an airplane. You're trying to pressurize the foil. And that's really different about getting that, that wing loaded under your feet. So any lateral pressure, like windsurfing is bad. You don't want to pull to the side, you want all your pressure straight up and you're just trying to load the foil and not power it up and take off like that.

That's where people just, crash and you'll see him doing the same mistakes for days and days. Or if you just. Dial them into what the feeling is that you're looking for.  It can come really quick. And so just the main mistakes people are making is trying to go too small, too quick. Don't learn the wing yet and try and get on the board.

And then using too small a board, too small a foil too quickly, let it, come to you and  you'll outgrow your stuff  relatively quickly, but there's always a friend that wants to learn. That'll take your bigger, older stuff. Especially having a big stable board that you can stand on comfortably without having to like water start underwater or whatever.

That's You've been on this prone foil board or something like that. It's yeah, a lot of guys say, Oh, I gotta be on a little board. It's way more cool. I'm still writing a floater. Most of the time, obviously I can write a 30 or 40, a 50, a 60. I've got whatever I want. And the vast majority of the time I'm on a 72 liter.

Cause I want to get up. If I fall between waves, I want to get up before the next wave. I don't want to be up to my chest, bouncing my wing off the reef, trying to get going. And so there's,  yeah, I mean to each their own, but there's definitely that, that oh yeah, smaller is better, which isn't necessarily the case unless you're doing rotations.

And of course you want as little board as possible. And then, yeah I watched that video where you're riding the South Shore I think La Perouse Bay, and you said, look, you like to have the foil really far forward using actually a fairly bigger size foil, so you can pump back out and and then you, and your back foot's way behind the mast and stuff like that.

So talk a little bit about how you like to set up your gear that's different from how other people use it, yeah, it's really hard to generalize because with so many brands of foils back there in the market there's really a difference in lift. I can say, oh yeah, I ride an 840 most of the time, but my 840 and that 840 might be really different.

Where the wing lines up on the fuselage, where the lift point is in comparison to the mast is really different from brand to brand. Yeah.  But in general, I like to have I want to have my feet. and my weight on that pendulum point, like a teeter totter,  right? You can put a sandbag way over here on the teeter totter and stand here  and balance it,  right?

But you're not gonna be able to do it too quickly. You're putting your weight here to balance that weight out that's here. And you can do it. And that's how most people are falling. Or you can put it here.  And have really quick  control of your fore and aft movement to follow the chop to catch things, when you're, and it's not just Whoa, leaning back and then it's going to come up.

And then  I just like to be behind the mask with my foot so I can really quickly make those lift adjustments. I've noticed that a lot of beginners ride with too much, like where they have to put too much pressure on their back foot. Where as you get better, you realize you want to have just equal pressure on both feet.

You don't want to have to lean on your back foot all the time. You get to get tired and you're not balanced, right? Exactly. It's just trim, just having that comfortable between the feet balance so you can carve. You're not using the rail, but, so to speak, you can. you can control that pitch fore and aft side to side really easily when you find that balance point like standing on a ball and if you can stand right on the middle of the ball and have quick  access control in every direction for me at least it makes it way more fun than being back here And having it fast in one direction, but slow in the other.

And then foils, I still ride a pretty big foil. Most of the time, my guys will be out on five 50, 600. And I'm most of the time on an eight 49, 14, even lighter winds, a 10 40. If I'm going on a lake and cruising around, I'm not trying to race anyone, it's flat water, there's little bumps, I'm going to catch that little bump and have more fun on it with a 10 40 than I am on a 700. 

Yeah, again it's not that race to be as small as possible, but bragging range. Oh, I'm on a 450 and a 30 liter board. All right. You're just going back and forth the same as I am. It depends on your weight, depending on your conditions, depends on the wind, depends on what you're trying to accomplish. 

The good thing is it's all good. It all works, so another thing I wanted to ask you is right now it seems like the hottest thing in foiling is down, downwind foiling, like everyone's getting into that, buying the long boards and bigger foils, that kind of stuff. And what's your take on that?

What, how do you feel about downwind foiling? Do you do it at all? Or  not really? I'd rather.  poke myself in the eye with this, but that's just me. I never understood the appeal. Obviously, I could do it. I'll go and I'll go with Mickey. I'll test,  but I've never been a downwind guy, even in the days of stand up.

I'd go, I'd test boards, I'd write a 14, I'd get on an unlimited and just not understand the appeal. I've just never been.  And even now with foiling, you're flying. Guys are coming down the coast. It looks like they're  getting pulled by a spaceship. They're going so fast. Then when you go and do it, to me, you're still just trying to keep up with the ocean  and the ocean's like trying to pass me.

It just doesn't feel fast. It looks fast watching other guys do it, but then I'll go and do it and we'll do a full on downwinder on a 40 knot day. And it still just doesn't feel. I don't know. I'm too spoiled of being powered by the wind, I think. And  it's too much work, not enough reward. The whole drop the car there, drop the car there thing.

It's too much time. I get it. I understand the appeal. It's awesome. That's so many people are doing it. Maui is just a constant flow of guys. I know when I went to Oahu, Diamondhead all day long, guys are coming down from Black Point around to Tongs. It's fricking cool. But I personally, yeah, maybe I'm just not old enough yet when I get older, I'll get into downwinding another, when I'm 70 I'll embrace it.

But right now I'm having too much fun just blasting around.  Yeah. And I think a lot of people don't realize how difficult it is. They're like all gung ho about it. And then they end up buying the longer board and the bigger foil because they can't do it on the. The equipment they got first and then they realize, Oh, and then, it's, it can be so frustrating if you can't get up on foil and you're just like paddling this tippy foil board all the way down when it's like, Oh yeah, talk about a heart attack.

Yeah. So it's not as easy as it looks, I would say to people that  wing foiling is definitely the The easier way to have fun more, more quickly.  A lot less work. And then you can do downwinders winging, and then at least if you come off the foil, you're right back up.  Yeah, it's still cool.

Thanks so much. I know you have to go, but I guess just give let's talk a little bit about your time management. Like we talked earlier, like you make time to fix your car for two days and, do things like that. So how do you Yeah. How do you make time to, to have a conversation like this and with your busy schedule and and how do you prioritize things and right now, just, trying to put as little  on the calendar  in the future as possible, I used to have just commitments all year long, like I, okay.

September, I'm there in October, I'm there in November, I'm there. And I'm being a lot more selective to what I commit to so that I can be flexible.  I love being able to wake up in the morning and  not even look at the forecast. I'm not fucking hunting wind grew and looking for this. Going back to how it was before.

See what the day brings. And then make the most of it to a certain degree. Be on the computer as little as possible. And everyone's Oh, you see that swell coming Monday? No, I haven't looked.  So how's it look? Awesome. Just trying to be more stoked and fluid and be flexible. Which I'm really enjoying, okay, let's go to a while.

Oh, my daughter's doing a volleyball game there. I'm going to go to that.  Yeah just try to be organic, flexible, make time for not just bringing relentless testing, testing all the time. But no, I'm not going to work on my car today. Like I've got one of my cars semi taken apart right now.

And that's be my next project. A lot of work in the yard, enjoying working around here. Got a little orchard, watching the fruit grow. Watch our first harvest of avocados on the way. Just, yeah, trying to enjoy life. Try and be a good friend. Good boyfriend, good dad, good son,  good grandpa.

All those things that you can lose track of. And, knock on wood, I'm in the luxurious position where I can do that. A lot of people can't, they're, they have to just fucking work  two jobs all day, every day and have a hard time getting their head above water. And I appreciate that.

And I know how lucky I am to be in the position that I'm in that I can enjoy those other aspects of life.  And in my head, like I said, I'm still a pro athlete. I'm 61 years old. I  do a lot for Red Bull. I love working with them. It's like a family at this point. I've been with them for so long. 

And I love I, I heard in another interview that you actually got into Red Bull because it benefited like the vitamin D or something like that. And then I just wanted some free products to start with. Yeah. So that's that's where it started. I drink it every single day. I've drank more Red Bull in the last 30 years.

And it's I absolutely love it. But I love everything the company is all about as well. And so I do a lot of sharing it like internally speaking to athletes around the world, doing athlete summits and whatnot, sharing about the functionality of the product and how to use it to your benefit.  And just the legacy and the history and where we came from.

Yeah, it's an amazing story with an amazing founder. Yeah. Enjoying being an athlete and still being able to do what I love. My mind and body are allowing me to keep basically playing and having fun. So I'm sharing it with other people. Sharing with Stoke is important to me now too. Sending positive messages.

I don't drink, I don't smoke, don't do drugs,  try and live clean. Live life honorably. And that, that seems to be difficult for a lot of people these days, I know it sounds like you have a really good balance between, your professional life, your work life, and then also personal  family and enjoying, enjoying things.

So when you go out in the water, is it more for fun or you feel like you're also, like you say, pro athlete and marketing and all that kind of stuff? A lot of fun because I don't really put pressure on myself. I don't have to do anything. I don't have to post on youtube. I don't have to so like you'll see periods of time where I don't do anything at all And i'll get into it and post a bunch of stuff and it's fun Okay, I don't want to do that anymore.

I don't want I don't want to be part of that whole  Freaking me, it can Become unhealthy. I don't think it's a positive thing personality wise. Going, Oh, how many legs do I have? And I just, it brings out the worst in us. Arrogance is not a positive trait. Self promotion is not a positive trait.

Humility is a positive trait. Humility doesn't get you very far in the world of social media. So if you want to sponsor it, like that's the thing that a lot of sponsors want to see how many followers do you have and whatever. That's what athletes today have to be on social media and stuff like that.

Yeah. And I heard you talking about that too, like how you dislike social media and so one of the kind of sometimes disconnect from your cell phone and stuff like that. And I think that's such a big thing now for the young people, especially during the pandemic, everybody got hooked on their devices and it's a huge social issue, I think.

But yeah. And back in the day when you first went. As a 13 year old went to Bahamas, there's like I remember those days when you traveling, you can't be like, Oh yeah, just text me or call me when you get there. It's you don't know, like you have to have a place and a time to meet. And if the person's not there, then you're like, okay, maybe I can send a letter or call, call someone somewhere else. 

Yeah. It was really different. Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of benefits to it, but there's some disadvantages to it as well. It's certainly in many ways, not healthy. The amount of communication and yeah, but it is what it is. Got to deal with it. Make the best, navigate that path in as healthy a way as possible.

Yeah, so I know we're going over time already. So what's your plan today? What are you  doing? I'm heading down right now to cool out and go shoot. Wing foiling actually we're doing some video over The last week into this next week for next year's stuff and it's it's sunny and windy and flat because here on Oahu, it seems like there's no wind at all right now.

So I guess, yeah,  it's always windy here. Yeah. Maui always gets windy. So cool. Yeah. Thanks so much for your time and really enjoy the conversation. And maybe we can do it again one day.  A lot more questions.  Maybe when I come over to Oahu, we can do some of the beach. This is. You sitting in your office? 

In my office?  Yeah. I started the podcast during the pandemic, so Zoom was like, great way to talk to people, but don't really have to do that anymore. So yeah. Let's do it in person next time. Yeah I was even gonna say in, I'll just come over to M and  come along in the photo shoot and check it out and take some pictures or whatever, but yeah.

There you go. Yeah.  Next time.  Right on. Okay. Have a great rest of your day. Thanks so much.  I appreciate it. All right. Any, any last met last minute message to the weight and folders out there or the water sports world you want to say to everyone?  No every day on the water is a good day. So Yeah, get out there.

Don't be a wave hog,  but yeah, have fun and hopefully we'll see you out there  Yeah, share and enjoy Right on. Thank you, Robbie. Yeah, stoked. I gotta go get it. Right on.  Alright, so as always, I really appreciate everyone that watches the show all the way to the end on YouTube, or listens to it as a podcast.

I really appreciate you guys and girls out there, all the wing foilers and water sports enthusiasts. I hope I'm keeping the stoke alive for you and I'm hoping to do more in person interviews as well in the future. I've been super busy doing stuff so not as much time for the shows but I do have some people I still want to interview.

Some of the big names in the sport,  so I'm not done with this show yet. I'm going to keep it coming. I was super stoked to get Robbie Naish on the show. I'm going to try to meet up with him again, hopefully in person next time. So yeah, just keeping the information flowing and the stoke going.

And this summer is going to be super exciting for me. I'm doing the I'm going to do Maui to Molokai to Oahu races on a wing foil board. And then the following week, I'm also going to do the Molokai to Oahu on a regular stand up paddle stock race board. Stay tuned. Busy training right now.

Also working on a book, stand up paddling for dummies. So that's going to come out in the future. And I have a little bit less time for the show, but just trying to do everything and live life to the fullest and get out on the water as much as I can. Hope you stay stoked out there.

Thanks so much again for watching. See you on the water. Aloha. 

Aloha friends, it's Robert Stehlik. Thanks so much for tuning in to the Blue Planet Show. Today's show is extra special. I got to meet with Jimmy Lewis. Derek and Lucas and I visited his workshop in Haiku in Maui,  where We, he showed us his whole workshop, gave us a full tour, showed us his house as well. He even gave us t shirts and signed them.

This is the t shirt he gave me.  So that was a super fun trip and I highly recommend watching this one on YouTube.  I'll post it as a podcast as well if you're doing other things. But the visuals are great. He shows us the full tour of his factory, his dust collection system, how to shape a board from basically hot cutting it with a hot wire cutting the blanks installing inserts foil tracks his philosophy on shaping and how he was inspired by sea planes when he developed some of the early foil boards.

and showed us a hydrodynamic plate mount that he developed for the air chair and then how to get sharp edges when you're glassing, how to shape a twisted V tail. So he's not holding back, sharing whatever he knows. So cool  of Jimmy to give us all the details.  And at the end of the interview, I'll also make some special announcements about the Molokai race, a couple other things.

Stay tuned to the very end. Thanks so much for watching, and without further ado, here is Jimmy Lewis.  Tell me again about the design and how you came up with that kind of, the, this guy, Vitor Marcal, he's a lifeguard captain on the North Shore now, right? And he's been a lifeguard for as long as I've known him.

I've known him for a little over 20 years. And he was one of the first guys foiling  when Laird first started foiling and using the boots, to bolt themselves onto the board and those air chair foils. They had like snowboard bindings, right? Yeah. So they just And so Vitor was pretty progressive on it, to know  that he needed to adjust his foot straps sometimes or his bindings.

So he had me put these tracks on. And, Vitor was really good. He could do jumps and backflips on a wave with that air chair, and he'd said, Yeah, when I jump up, jump, and I come down for a landing, my board would always stick. And he asked me what kind of  shape could I do so it wouldn't stick so much.  And the first thing I thought of was a seaplane, because they're made to  land on water.

 Aloha friends. It's Robert Stehlik. Welcome to another episode of the Blue Planet Show where I interview foil athletes, designers, and thought leaders. I talk not just about the equipment technique and so on. but also try to find out a little bit more about their background, what inspires them and their plans for the future and so on.You can watch this show right here on YouTube or listen to it on your favorite podcast app. Just search for the Blue Planet Show.

I've been trying for a long time to get the Spencer brothers to come on the show and I finally met up with them after the Molokai To Oahu race and I got them both on the show today.

So really stoked about that. Finn recently won the Maui to Molokai race and the Molokai to Oahu race, even though he had a major infection on his foot. So congrats on that. And they are both amazing athletes, not just in wing foiling, but also downwind foiling, prone foiling, surfing. They do everything.

Really great guys to talk to. Hope you enjoy the show. So without further ado, here are Finn and Jeffrey Spencer. Alright, Finn and Jeffrey, welcome to the Blue Planet show. It's great to have you here. I've been trying to get you for quite a while. And then I finally ran into your dad at the finish of the Molokai Toahu race.

And then Jeffrey gave me your text your cell phone number. So finally getting you guys on the show. Stoked. Yeah. Thank you for having us. Yeah. So you're on Maui. I'm on Oahu. And on Maui, just, since the Molokai race and not too long ago, I was in Lahaina like right before the Maui to Molokai race and everything was fine and now it's all gone.

So can you talk a little bit about the fires on Maui and what, and. If you know anyone that got affected by it totally, yeah, we we had this storm that was passing to the south of the islands and it was like, usually it's not too concerning because it didn't look like it was actually going to hit us.

But what happened was it ended up generating extremely crazy strong winds, like through the whole thing, but there was no rain or anything. So it's just. Like the most windy it's ever been, especially over on the West side in Lahaina. And they're just not used to having, that crazy amount of wind.

So tons of stuff was getting knocked down. And I think just in the chaos, like the fire started, it was, there was ones on both sides of the island. There was some up country up in Kula and then also in Lahaina. So it was probably pretty difficult to be able to actually like. Control everything, especially in that amount of wind.

It spread extremely quickly. And yeah, it's pretty devastating, but yeah, most the entire town of Lahaina pretty much burnt. Quite a few places up country as well, but look, it wasn't as bad up there. Yeah, it's not as densely populated now, at least but yeah, I was just reading in the paper this morning that there was some like live video of the power lines getting knocked over and then just falling into the grass and just like a line of fire starting instantly.

Stuff like that. And then yeah, the wind was so strong that day that it just spread super fast and I guess people didn't even have time to. To get away, it's pretty, pretty tragic. It's like probably the big, the worst fire in, in recent history. Yeah. And then, so do you know anybody that got affected by it or lost their home or?

Yeah. A bunch of our friends on the West side that we know and grew up with Santa paddling and foiling and surfing and just lost everything like lost their homes and pretty much everything. Yeah.

Anyway, yeah, so if yeah, and then I guess I talked to Zane yesterday who lives over on that side too and Zane Schweitzer, he, and he said like they don't need more clothes and stuff like that. Everybody's been sending clothes, but they just need like certain things like VHF radios and containers and things like that.

They need it quickly. So because shipping stuff there, it takes a while, so anyway. Probably the best way to support Maui's is by making a donation. Absolutely. Yeah. The best way is like supporting the families directly. If I know personally, like the Clayton's and the flex from paddling, they're good family friends and there's tons of others.

We're able to find them on there, especially social media has been a really good way for people to communicate through all this and the Maui strong foundation as well as a really good resource that they're able to take the funds and use them wherever's most needed at the current moment. That's another really good one to donate to.

All right. Yeah. Best wishes for everyone on Maui. That's just a tough situation to be in for sure. But anyways, let's talk a little bit about you guys. How, where did you, have you always lived on Maui or how did you grow up? And, what, how did you get into water sports and all that kind of stuff?

Yeah, since we were, We've lived here since we were babies. We were born in Canada, but basically our entire lives was here. We weren't even a couple of years old when we moved here. So yeah, it's just been my way. But interestingly, it took us a while to get super into water sports. We did a bunch of, the average like school sports growing up team ones, like basketball, volleyball, stuff like that.

And then we started stand up paddling around. Probably 10 years ago, actually, at this point, but then just from there, like we always had fun bodyboarding and surfing and Santa paddling and then got into it from there. Yeah, right on. Who's older or what are your ages? I'm older and 19, 22 and 19.

All right. So I guess when you started, you were. Like around, I was probably 13. We'd always play in like the shore break with boogie boards and, when we were really young, but we didn't really start like getting into it more. Until, yeah, until I was 13 and you were probably like 10, 11.

Yeah. Yeah. And that was that your dad taking you down, down to the beach and putting you on a board or did you just show interest in it or like, how did that work out? We would actually, we'd go over to the west side near Lahaina, we'd go to Laniopoko and the waves there are super fleet friendly, the best place for any, anyone to learn.

We just take long boards and stand up paddle boards and spend the days over there in the summer. Nice. Nice. Okay. And then how did you start getting into foiling? What was how did you first start foiling? I think it was a while ago now. I think before it all started, we talked to Alex Aguero about just trying some surf foils.

Cause he was making kite foils at the time. And then it was funny, he said he had just started working with Kai Lenny on the same thing. So then we started doing that with them, just went to Sugar Co. and had the first GoFoil prototype that we tried and then just started going to the west side a bit and just getting into it and then Kai put out that video of him downwinding and that just exploded it.

Yeah.

Then everyone was like, Oh, I want to try this. But you were basically tried some of the very first prototypes that Alex was making him. Totally. Yeah. We just be like us in the beach down here, just going with Kai and on this old sub board with a tunnel box drilled into it and Yeah, just testing stuff.

It was fun. Yeah. And then where are you mostly trying to do downwinders or more in the surf or both or what were you guys doing? Most part, it was in the surf. For the first couple of months. And then we started to try a couple of downwinders and realize that it was super fun. So then we started doing that a lot more too.

Yeah. The foils quickly evolved to be good enough for downwinding. Yeah. And then in the beginning you were using GoFoils and then I guess at some point you got sponsored by Slingshot or or how did that evolve? We'd run GoFoils as well and it was great. And then we had an opportunity to.

To try the slingshot stuff as well and it worked really well for us. So yeah, we, we met with Tony Ligo. She's a awesome designer and Yeah wrote with them for a while, which was amazing. Okay. And then did you have like influence in the design and things like that? Developing products or not so much.

They just would send you stuff and you'd play with it. We'd help them test stuff, but we're a lot of new stuff and the wings and then all the coils and boards. And so it was super fun. Learned a lot from that for sure. We're definitely still very early on in like our experience though.

So it's not like we were saying like, oh, this is. What you should do to make it good, it's like more just Feeling it out and helping as much as we could. Yeah. And then probably the equipment you were using on Maui was like smaller and you guys are lightweight too, right? It's probably like smaller than what they could sell to the average consumer, right?

So yeah, and then you were some of the, I think, were you the first to do a back loop on a wing foil board or yeah. That's awesome. I remember seeing that video and I was wow, that's insane. Yeah, I just remember we were doing them surf foiling off of waves. You could come back out and hit the ramp.

And I'm just thinking oh, I think this would probably work with the wing after I just had a wave session. And then right after that, I'm like, in my mind, I could see how it would work. And then after that, I went straight back out that night and tried it for a few hours. And then. The next didn't get it, but I got like close.

I like fully saw the potential. And then the next day I yeah, went out and tried again and somehow made it work, which was honestly really strange. Like usually if you're trying a new trick, it takes a lot longer to learn. Like even for me, it I usually take weeks to figure some stuff out. But I think the backflip is just so it's such a natural movement on the wing of the foil with that, that it it worked out pretty well.

So what are, after people say, are you doing it? Then a lot of people figure it out how to do it, but, I'm still doing it, being the first to do it is always you don't have someone else's videos you can watch to figure out how to do it. So what are the biggest challenges of doing a back flip with a wing?

I think a lot of it's very mental because it's it's difficult to, see yourself actually going upside down with the foil, especially. And I think the most important thing safety wise is just to keep your feet like in the straps with the foil facing away from you. Cause as long as that's good, it's not, you're not going to connect with the foil, which is pretty much the main way to hurt yourself if you're trying it.

And after, after time of doing it to the biggest. Things that I've learned to help is if you're able to do one surf foiling or even start with a backflip on a trampoline and then transition to do one surf one, so you get the feel of how you move through the air with the foil on your feet.

And then, after all that, if you can transition to doing it with the wing, make sure you have enough speed, really stay strong, it's easy to get disconnected with your legs and your upper body when you're going through it. Yeah, if you're able to work on all those things, it makes it a.

Much, much more possible. Nice. Okay. Those are some good pointers. What about the wing handling? It seems if you don't get the wing right on the landing, you end up getting backwinded and falling into the wing. Like, how do you deal with that? Totally, yeah. A lot of it's for a lot of wing tricks, so much of it's in the takeoff which, or how much speed you have and what direction you jump when you get in the air.

So for that one, it's really about Making sure you get enough height and angling off the window a little bit, because if you turn up too much, you'll come around and that's when it'll backwind. So if you're a little more angled down away from it, when you get that height and then suck your knees in and pull it around, it'll really focus on just pulling that top hand up.

It'll not catch as easily when you're coming out of it. Yeah. You guys have amazing Instagram accounts. I'm just looking through it. I'm going to actually screen share this a little bit and maybe you can tell me how far back I need to go to find that when you first started doing backflips, it's pretty close a little further, I'd say.

What is this? You're wearing a plastic bag. That was a ghost costume for Halloween. But yeah, a lot of it was not easy to breathe in if you ended up in the water. I think right there. I think, yeah, with the red board on the left and this one. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So let's watch this. Oh yeah. I remember what, Watching this and being blown away, and you have a really small wing too, I guess that, that helps too, right?

Absolutely, if especially if you're learning, the smaller the wing, the easier it is just to maneuver. I'd fully recommend if you're beginning, if you can get a good bump or ramp of a wave to go off of, and then a small wing, it's by far the easiest way to learn. That one right there is a three meter wing.

Yeah. Just having less wingspan makes it easier. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. That compact style definitely helps as well. Not like you getting a huge amount of air, but that probably helps to getting high, the higher you get, the more time you have to rotate. But then I guess there's also more risk of injury, right?

Probably, yeah. It's tough because sometimes you think so, but giving yourself more time to rotate in the air, actually, it just makes it easier. That's one of the things now I always work on with, especially the backflip, is I just try and get as high as possible. And you don't actually, unless you're going off a massive ramp, you don't end up going that high, just because you have to consider up.

But then also as soon as you start pulling the wing back, you, you stop going up, it you just want to give yourselves as much time as possible to come around. Okay. Is there like a, another video you would, that one, your mouth is on right now is a pretty light. This one. Yeah. I'd say this is when I've got it consistent. I'm still using a bit of ramps, still not that much height. It's still pretty early on, but this was, I was feeling more comfortable with the double. Yeah. Nice. Yeah. And then you're doing it, on the way into the beach, just cause that's your natural your natural regular foot or why is it that you're doing it on this tack?

We're both regular footed. So we pretty much all our tricks going in, which is a bit of a bar for here. Cause. If we were goofy footed, we'd have way better ramps, but yeah, we try and make it work going in. It's good for surfing here since you're with the window a lot of the time, but yeah, for the wind sports, it's not as not as easy to find a good ramp.

And then what about you, Finn? I guess you probably picked up the backflip pretty soon after your brother, or how long did it take you to figure it out? A while, actually. I started trying them pretty soon after, but I had never really done a backflip doing anything before. So I was doing them very weird and not going over backwards, like doing them sideways a bit.

And then I went to a trampoline park and learned and then felt comfortable doing them and then went surf foiling and learned them going out off of waves. And then the next time I went, I was getting them down a lot more. Yeah. Finn was funny. His first attempts were so sketchy, which is why I say it's so important to keep the foil away from you and learn all the backflip stuff because he would get straight upside down and then just fold in half and land on top of the wing.

But as soon as as soon as he figured it out on the surf foil, it was like night and day compared, for his technique compared to what it was before. I think it was later. It's so important to do this. All your backflip flips? Yeah. Yeah. I've seen, I've had friends who are trying it and it just yeah, like the board coming off their feet in the middle of the jump and there's like the foil landing on their wing and getting, trashing many wings and all that kind of stuff.

And plus, yeah, it looked dangerous. What is this move? That looks nuts. But a backflip without the, without using the wing basically. Yeah, just going out and then you drift the wing and then do a flip off the wave. Wow. Yeah. So you guys are definitely on the forefront of all these tricks, but let's talk a little bit about the races.

There was a lot of races over the last month. And and you guys both of you guys did really well in in these races. So let's talk first, I guess about the Maui to Molokai race. I, I was there and experienced it and just saw, I saw you, Finn like I was wing foiling too, and I saw you just disappearing on the horizon, just going it seemed like you were just going in a straight line as fast as you could locked into like a real steady, fast downwind angle.

Yeah, the wind angle was pretty good. We were able to pretty much shoot straight from the start to, the Kanakakai buoy or the Kamalabouyam, the Kamalabouyam, yeah, and it was just weaving a bit downwind from there. But yeah, that first leg was pretty straight and just. Going super fast the whole time.

So then, yeah, and I talked to Bobo Gallagher. He said that he didn't really see you until clo until you guys got close to Molokai. So did you see Bobo at all or after maybe 10, 15 minutes into the start? I think I did a turn and he kept going, and then I just lost sight of him for the, until around the buoy.

But that whole race, I couldn't, or that whole section of the race, I couldn't really see anybody, so I had no idea where I was. And then . When I got to the booty I saw him a fair bit ahead of me and I was like, oh, shoot I gotta speed up. So then I just worked super hard and was going as fast as I can to catch up.

And then we're, that gap was staying pretty similar to him ahead of me. And then I think once the wind got a bit lighter, I had a bit bigger wing and was able to pull up to him and then pull ahead to the, towards the finish. . So what size wing were you on? I was on a six meter. Yeah. And then Bobo was on like a 5'5 or something.

Yeah. Yeah. And then, and you were both on the same foil. Like he showed me the duotone foil. He was using like a kite surfing, kite foil. Yeah, we were both on the Daytona race foil they have. Yeah. Daytona race. Yeah. That thing was, I think probably the foil is the most important thing for going fast.

And, but of course also the wing is important for, because that's what powers you along basically. All pretty fast foil and then just a big, powerful wind. You can go as downward as possible. Yeah, and then when and you finished in 114 or something like that. Is that right? Yeah Which is amazingly fast for whatever it was 28 miles or something like that, right?

Do you know what your average speed was on that run? I don't I think until the wind got lighter is probably around 28 to 30 miles an hour and then once you got lighter, it really slowed down a lot So at the end when I came towards the end, like everyone that was in my kind of around me just came to completely came off the focus, it wouldn't just completely died for a while.

And then after a bit, then there was another gust and I was able to get back up on foil and fly over the line. But how was it for you guys? Did you have the wind completely die and you have to like just pump or how was it at the end? It got pretty light. I think even on the six, I was pretty underpowered and probably for Bobo on the five, five too.

But we were both able to pump our way into the finish. Yeah. Yeah. So then, and you ended up finishing all I guess it was pretty close to like he was a minute or two behind you only or something like that. Yeah. So yeah. And from what I could tell is it seemed like you had more of a straight line and Bobo was trying to go more downwind on the way to Molokai.

Yeah. So what's I know, like when, cause when the more downwind angle you have, the less power you have in your wing, basically. So how did you figure out your ideal angle to the wind and to the waves? And did you just go on a straight line or did you try to use the energy of the ocean or like how do you maximize your speed?

It was mostly just using the winds and just trying to go as downwind as I could. And then just, Yeah. To keep enough power in the wing that I was able to go pretty fast. And then when it got lighter, I had to bear, go a bit slightly more upwind. And then, yeah, just trying to have as much power as possible.

So yeah, you have to do that to keep some pressure in your wing. But do you try to weave a little bit to use the bumps or do you just go straight? Do you make any adjustments? When I, when the wind gets lighter. Then you can use the bumps a bit more, but when it's really windy, you're going a lot faster than them.

So you're just cutting straight through. Okay. Or like it, you have to stay super focused when you're doing that. Cause you have to go up and down and try not to over foil or hit your board on a bump. And then. Yeah, especially when you're overtaking a bump, then it's easy to overfoil behind it, right?

As you're coming down the face. What size mask were you using? I was on a 105. Okay, so pretty long mask, too. And then that, that foil, the Daytona, what's the how many square inches, do you know, like the the surface area? It's around a five. 60 square centimeters. Yeah. And it's not like a super high aspect shape, right?

It's almost more like a little bit. Yeah. Like you can control and really just really locked in at high speeds. Yeah. So what do you think makes that foil so fast? I don't know. What is it that, is it a thinner profile or just like the overall, I think it's just. The mast is really slim and fast and then all the connect.

It's a full one piece lower, so it's super. Sleep like the fuselage really thin and the wing connections and then the wings are really good shape and good profiles. So Just a lot of that makes it just super fast and low drag all right, and then jeffrey you did the maui to mulukai on a standard foil board, right?

So yeah, so talk a little bit about how that went and and the whole experience Yeah, that was good. I same type of thing with Finn. After the start you get going for a bit and then you, it's, the bumps are, even though, it was a good day, there's just so much swell and water in the channel that you don't really see.

Anyone else, like even if they have boats and everything, it's actually hard to tell where you are in relation to to everyone. So I was just coming and I had no idea where I was basically, but the run was really good. I think at the start, I had a pretty good line, but then definitely, Were you able to get up on full right away, right from the start or?

Yeah, I was able to get going right away, which definitely is important in the races. You can lose quite a bit of time If you're off oil, which I figured out at the end, but about halfway, I think I went too close to the island and I would, the bumps just weren't as fast as they would have been further out.

And I was worried about the wind angle being tough to fight against at the end, but it turned out to just get light. It wasn't actually hard to come in. So I think if I was, yeah, to do it again, I would have. Taking a much wider line especially through the finish where near the end, I accidentally, or I actually went too far over the reef and my wingtip came out on just a little accident as I was pumping in.

And it was right before the finish where the wind was the lightest and the bumps were super, super small and I did my best to get back up on foil and got up for a second. But it was, if I had stayed further out, I would have had the energy to keep it going to stay in. But. On the inside, it was not the move.

I lost tons of time there. Did you, and I was shallow. So you hit the reef or did you go around the reef? It wasn't too bad. I wasn't like all the way inside. I think the tide was pretty high when we were coming in. So I. I luckily didn't hit it. I hit it I was paddling on my stomach coming in, but it was just, once you get over that shelf, the, even the little bumps that you would have just outside of it, just aren't even there.

so I just flattened out the bumps basically. Yeah. Yeah. And then you ended up finishing like in 14th place or something like that. Huh? You said 14, but and then what kind of what kind of foil were you on and board and foil? I'm just curious. Yeah, I was on a, just some prototype, a foil board we're working on.

And a same thing with the front wing. It's about an 800 square centimeter size, but all the rest of the stuff is production stuff. I was using the mast and fuselage and all that. Like how long of a mass we're using on a standard flow board. I've been actually liking the shorter stuff. I've been using a 75 centimeter mast.

Maybe when the conditions get really crazy, it can be nice to ride. A bit longer, so you have a bit more forgiveness just in that trimming and that height. But otherwise, yeah, the 75 is really nice. It feels like you have really good control and that's honestly one of my favorite parts about the whole duotone setup is how stiff it is.

So you really feel like you have really good control the entire time when you're riding. Yeah. And then for stand up foiling, it seems like with the shorter mass, it's a little bit easier to pump up on foil too, right? And then you also have less drag from the mass, right? The shorter it is, the less drag is in the water.

Cause when you're getting going, that whole mass is just sitting down in the water. So any length you're adding on is just. Pure drag when you're getting going. So that's probably a big reason. But it just helps with being a little bit more comfortable and having more control and more margin of error when you're, especially on wing foiling, I like to, I have a one or three mass and it just gives you that a little bit of extra time to react to, to like getting too high or whatever yeah, but cause when you're on a shorter mass, you really have to follow the contours of the water.

Like you always have to go up and down. over every little bump versus the longer mass. Sometimes you can fly over the smaller chop without making too many adjustments, yeah, exactly. Interesting though. I like how, I think it is a little bit different in wing foiling than in standup foiling, like the, or downwind foiling, what size mast you're using.

Totally. With the wing, it's nice to have that length. So you can just like, because you don't want to have to worry about going up and down. You just want to cut straight through everything. And then for downwind. Like that control you get from the shorter mass is definitely worth it. So even if you have to change your angle a bit, it's, I think it's nice.

Yeah. So when you, when Jeffrey, when you wingfo, do you use the same size mass or do you use a different, or do you wingfo race at all? Or yeah, absolutely. I would use the same setup and was on, if I was doing. Yeah, interesting. Right on. And then the next day was the Molokai Holokai, and I guess only you stayed stuck around on Molokai Jeffrey.

And then, yeah, so how did that next day go, the race, just on the Molokai coast? Yeah, it was great. Our our friends had a place for me to stay. So it was really easy for me over there. And it was great. There was tons of the people that live over there that were into doing the canoe race and everything.

And the conditions I think were actually, yeah, it was a little lighter. And I think the the whole race was super interesting. Like we paddled way out to the Camelot buoy and which is just offshore near the the start of the run down the coast. And then we, yeah, basically started pumped up the bumps were really slow, which was, it was like kind of work to keep it going, but it was very like, they're just lined up and even it was hard to really gain a bunch of grounds.

And when I started the race, the two other people who were really fast and that was Oscar Johansson and Aiden Nichols. And we all took super different lines like. Me from the day before I was thinking, okay, no matter what, I don't want to be too far in. So I went really wide into the middle of the channel and Oscar went in the middle and then Aiden went really close.

And I think just the style of the bumps kept us all like really close. We were like super spread out the whole race and then we were coming into the finish and it was crazy after the whole, I forget how long it was exactly. But after that whole time, after the 10 miles or whatever it was, we were all basically in a line next to each other, like almost on the same bump.

Basically. Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. So it became like a super hard pumping race and both goes, both those guys are super, strong and super good at pumping, especially like. Oscars of machine when it comes to that stuff. So it's very much for me. I knew I really have to focus on the technical part of it and really make sure I'm like taking the best line to each bump, making sure I save as much energy as possible.

But I was still pumping as hard as I could some of the times. And just before the end, luckily, I think Oscar said he made a couple. Like bump mistakes. And then I was able to just pull ahead of them by 10 seconds before the finish. And then Oscar and Aiden were, I think it was 0. 4 seconds apart across the finish, which is extremely close for a race, right?

Over 10 miles. Yeah. Yeah. It's unheard of. I think it was just because the conditions out there and the type of bumps were. They were so lined up. It was so hard to actually make distance on anyone, even though like we all took completely different lines. So it really doesn't make sense that we were right next to each other at the finish.

Yeah. Yeah. That's just how it went, which it was pretty fun. It was like, I, it was the hardest I worked. I think in most of the races, just because they were right next to me, I just had something to really push for and really like really focus on to that was the most I focused in, or the most I had to focus in any of the race scenarios.

From the past couple of weeks. Yeah. And then that, that just, that length of that race, it's almost, yeah, it's more like you can really go all out the whole way. It's not like you have to conserve for the last part, like on the mobile or whatever. It's really tough on the longer ones to know how much energy you should use at the start.

Especially for M2O, that's the scariest part, is that basically, flat water pop up at the start and just thinking okay, if I use this much energy here, how much am I going to have for the end? And so for the Molokai Holokai race, it was like much more of a sprint the whole way. So yeah, it was a full grind.

But yeah, it was really fun. Yeah. So yeah, so the Molokai or Maui to Molokai race and the Molokai Holokai, that was like two weeks before the M2O race. And then I think the following weekend there was the gorge challenge in Hood River and also the paddling mua on Maui, right? Finn, which one did you do again?

I went to the gorge and then Jeffrey stayed here for Paddleamua. Okay, so how did the gorge, how was the gorge challenge? It was super fun. It was decently windy, a lot lighter than it usually is in the gorge, and then they ran both the wing downwind race and the sub downwind race on the same day, but they were, luckily this year they spaced it out by three or four hours, so we had time to do that one and then go back up to the second.

So which ones did you compete in? Which races? I did the wing foiling downwind and course race, and then the sub downwind race. Sub foiling, right? Okay. So how, and then, yeah. So tell us a little bit about how those races went. So the first day they did all the downwinders, so at, in around 10 in the morning, they started the wing one and it was pretty light.

We were all, everybody was just on their biggest wings, pretty much. I had a 6'5 and the, everyone started super close. And then these two guys, Johnny Heineken and Joey Pasquale, who are really good kite racers or kite foil racers, and now wing foil racers, they pulled a bit ahead. And then. I was trying, I was keeping with them a lot and then just slowly falling back and then just stayed like that the whole way down and just came in third in that one, maybe 15, 20 seconds behind Johnny and first and then 10 seconds.

Wow. So that was a super close race too. Then how, what distance is that? Like how long is it? I think that one's not eight or nine miles. And what was the time on that one? 24. And you're going against the river current too, right? So that, that makes it a little bit slower then. Yeah. If you, yeah.

Yeah. When it was super light. Yeah. Yeah, so I guess obviously if the wind was stronger, the how it is a lot of times, then you guys would have had faster times, right? And then in terms of the foils, we're using the same one that used in the M2M or? For the wing race, I was using that same Daytona foil. Yeah, so I guess depending on the wind conditions, you just use a bigger hand wing, but not necessarily a bigger foil.

Yeah, usually. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. There's also a 6'5 unit D Lab for that one. Do you know what what kind of wing Johnny Heineken was on foil? I think both him and Joey were on the Mike's Lab foils. Do you know what size by any chance? No. I think the, either the 540 or the 600. Yeah, and those are super fast foils as well.

But interesting. Okay. And then how did the Paddle in Mura go? You stayed on Maui, Jeffrey, right? And then how was that? Paddle in Mura was awesome. That event is a fundraiser to support kids with special was. I think 300 people registered to do the race and they had to close registration because it was so full, which was just, yeah, it was so incredible to see the race launches from legal gulch.

So having everyone down in there, like the whole. Canoe paddling community. And then all the oil community as well was like, just so incredible to see, and yeah, the race itself was really fun. The conditions were good. We had all had a nice, good start out in the wind line and went down to Kanawha and it was, yeah, pretty good race.

I was feeling good. The other guys, there's some other really fast guys. I think James. Casey Andrew, I was where they got a bit ahead of me through the middle of the race. And then I was coming in next to Kai. And then I did the same thing that I did in a M2M where my wingtip came out and I fell and I had to grind back up to get up.

And then Oscar came in and passed me just before the finish. And then I was able to like, run past him on the beach to the end. Cause it was like this crazy beach run finish, but it was a super fun race. And also I will mention Edo ended up like just coming out just to be part of it. He wasn't even able to get in just because it was so full, but he was faster than anyone, which was pretty cool to see.

Oh, so Edo actually won the race, but he wasn't officially registered kind of thing. Interesting. That was pretty cool. And then, those guys are the ones who've finished in the front on the M2O race as well. Yeah. So that's interesting. But yeah, so let's talk about that. The big one, the paddle board world championships, the Molokai Toahu race that one you guys both did.

And so how did that go for you guys? That was good. I think it went very well for me. Yeah, it was super fun. Except for one thing. Yeah, we had good wind and then pretty good bumps the whole way, but it was a bummer for me. A couple days before I started getting this weird pain in my heel and was having a hard time walking.

And then the day or two before the race, it just, this weird spot started coming in. And then up until the morning of the race, it just kept growing until a big blister on my heel. And I still just couldn't really put any weight on it. And then did the race. Luckily I had footstraps on my board, so I was able to.

Kind of not put much pressure on it and use my toes on my foot a bit more. And then when I got to the finish, I just had to go to the doctor and they like drained it all out and then had to cut all the skin away. And yeah, I saw you briefly at the finish and you were limping and I was like, what's going on?

And you showed me, and it's it was almost like a tennis ball size blister on your heel. It was huge, ugly looking too. It's yeah, the night before we were looking at it, wondering should we try and drain it and bandage up now or we ended up just yeah, I talked to Scott Trudeau, and who's Kai's, Scott Sanchez, sorry, who's Kai Lenny's trainer and he just said that I should probably wait to drain it because I don't want getting infected, which was good advice because I think if we had tried to pop it, it might not have been able to race.

And then, but luckily made it and then just had to go to the doctor right after. Yeah. And then they basically just cut off all the skin and just cleaned up the infection kind of thing, or did they, do they know what kind of infection or what would happen? No, not really. I think it just, I got like a weird bruise inside and then it was bleeding a little maybe, and then got infected.

So are you still healing up from that? Or is that all done now? Yeah, still healing, I think. Still on crutches right now trying not to put much weight on it. And then I think it's maybe another couple weeks before I can do stuff again. And you're taking like some, you probably had to go through some heavy antibiotics and stuff?

I had to go through a week after. Yeah. And yeah, wow. But yeah, it was the first time they had the wing flow division at the at the Molokai Molokai Tuawa race. So I always get those mixed up, but anyway so it's cool that you were able to win that one. And it was a really good battle with Bobo and then Aiden Nicholas.

Yeah. Most of the whole way, I think. Did you see them? Did you see them going across? Or I know that you guys were all pretty close, but yeah how was that? Yeah, we all started really close and we're pretty much on the same line, all in a pretty tight pack going towards Molokai. And then once the wind got a bit lighter, I think I had a bit more power in my wing and I was able to just drop a bit below them further downwind and pull ahead.

And then. Once we got a lot closer to Oahu and further up the coast and we had to start weaving downwind, then I think I really pulled ahead a lot just because I had more power and was able to ride the bumps a bit more when it got really light. And then I think. But before that we were all super close.

Yeah, and that's something to mention too that I mean I guess at the start the wind was actually pretty decent but then in the middle of the channel it got really light in some spots and then and it didn't really get seemed like it maybe got a little bit windier again towards the end towards Oahu, but And then once you got around the corner, then it was light again, right?

Did you get any lulls coming in towards the finish or? I think I came about as close to coming down as I could have, and then just got another puff of wind, as I was about to come down and kept going, but it was, yeah, it was close coming around the point where there's this big dead zone of wind before you got the wind coming from Hawaii.

And then I guess Bobo is a natural goofy footer, which is helps in the Molokai race because you're going in that stance most of the way. So for you, do you feel like you can go faster in your regular stance than in your in when you switch feet in the goofy foot stance or how do you, it's pretty similar right now.

And then I will, I need to spend more time going goofy though, cause I think it would be faster, but. With my foot to that race I, it was like, he was my back foot. So I didn't have to put as much weight on it. I had to use that as my front foot. It would have felt a lot worse, but yeah, both, both Bobo and Aiden were goofy footed.

So on the. The kind of first reach over to a Wahoo, I think it was a lot more comfortable for them. And then Aiden is from New Zealand, right? And he's on a, he was on the Armstrong foil, right? Yeah. What kind of foil he was on or what size and I think he just had a prototype one. He said it was around 470.

Oh, so even smaller than yours, huh? A fair bit smaller than ours, which I think it helped him when it was windier. And then when the wind got lighter, he was just having a hard time going as downwind. So that's another thing to to mention too, like basically on a really small foil. Yeah. Like sometimes you can't get the same downwind angle because yeah, it starts dropping off foil.

So you need a little bit more pressure in your wing. Yeah. So it's always like a gamble a little bit. If you are too small. It helps going faster, but then you're also taking a risk at when the wind gets lighter. So yeah, for sure. Cause that's what happened was at the start he was super fast and actually pulling ahead a bit when it was windier.

And then once he got lighter, I caught up a lot to him and then was just able to go more downwind and the same speed towards the finish, just put a big gap on him because it was really light. And I was able to go more downwind. And then what handling were you on? It was the duotone. I was on the duotone unit D lab six meter, which I think I would've preferred to have a six five, but it's so hard to tell what the wind is doing.

Apart from, do you mind sharing what your weight, your body weight? I think like one 40 to one 45. Okay. So yeah, so six meters, pretty big for you, for your body weight. And what about your board size? What's, what were the dimensions of the board you were using? Four, four, 35 liter sky free board or sky.

It's a pretty small board, like basically a sink sinker, right? So it's nice for the weighing down one to just use something that. Cause you're using such a big wing. You don't really need a ton of board to get you going. And then you want something that once you're up is just really out of the way, so you're not catching it on other bumps. And there's a lot of moments there. I feel like they make it a lot easier to control the foil at high speeds. And then, yeah, you're not really too worried about it catching. And you didn't fall at all during the whole way across or did you have any, right at the start, maybe a minute or two in, I was.

I think I just hit a weird warble and then the nose started going down and I tried to put weight on my back foot and put it right on my heel where it really hurt and then just. Stuff that knows I've been flying and then luckily God pretty fast, like 10, 15 seconds and was going again. Oh, good.

Yeah. That's I always like to use a little bit longer and board higher volume board for racing, because yeah if you do fall or come off and it's light, then it just makes it so much easier to get back on foil for like course racing and then if the wind's lighter, that's definitely the way to go.

Cause then it's the worst when you're just stuck down in the water and everyone's passing you and. Yeah, I can't get going again now. All right. Jeffrey, talk about your experience at the Mali to Molokaris. I heard from A lot of stand up foilers that the start was tough.

And then all the wing full escort boats went across or, made wakes and chop and world up the water and stuff like that. So yeah, talk a little bit about how the start was and then, yeah, how the whole channel crossing went for you. Totally. Yeah. The start of the race is always difficult since you start just below the island.

Time to. Generate as big as they'll be in the middle of the channel yet. And the wind at your back definitely helps. It's, it makes it like much easier than a completely flat water pop up. But the hardest part is you're able to grind up and get going. And that's something I practice a lot, especially like in flat water stuff, but just staying up for that time until you actually get into the bumps that you're able to relax and regain some energy is definitely the difficult part.

So my focus on the start was just getting up, getting going and then keeping my heart rate as low as possible and trying to ride as efficiently as possible to not. Burn so much energy. So about how long did it take the pumping in the beginning where you just couldn't even rest at all, like until you reach some bumps where you could just take a little breather, you can take like tiny rest.

Cause there was like a little bit of motion, especially like with all the boats going around. Some of it was bad. Some of it, you had to pump through, but then some of it, you could use to, to ride a little bit, I ended up. On the south side of the line at the start. So the boats actually cut across me really quickly, which was bad because it was right at the start and I hadn't gotten on a glide yet.

But then I got to the other side of this boat wake and got a tiny bit of rest, which actually might've helped me a little bit. It didn't last very long. It was probably a few minutes before any good rest and then several more until you were like. You could actually ride a bump for a bit. Yeah.

Yeah. But my friend Eli was saying he had a couple times where boats went like right in front of him and I think that's something that they need to educate the escort captains on that when we just can't go through a boat wake when it's all turned up. It's not, we just, the foil doesn't work in that, yeah, it makes it super difficult to divide when those currents are moving in the water off the prop. Yeah, it's definitely tough. I'm sure next year we'll have it all figured out, because... It's tough starting the wing and the sub at the exact same time as well. Yeah, there's... Yeah. I guess there's talk of doing the foiling on a different day than the paddling.

What do you think of that? Do you think that would be a good way to do it? Yeah, I think that could be awesome. And I'm sure even if they do that, there'll be separate starts for the wing and foil, or maybe the boats will start further out for the wing since they have to like... If they let, if the wingboats let the going to catch up with how fast the wings are going, especially like this year was pretty light winds and which is easier for the boats to drive in and makes the rider slower.

But if it's strong, it's going to be even more difficult. So I think I think a separate day in general could be awesome. It would. I think give them more customizability for the race course and just start further on the wind. And then there's maybe talk of finishing down at like Waikiki area.

So you have bumps all the way to the finish. And then it's still a cool, like finishing the run that all the guys do over there. And I think it could be nice for like their Just managing everyone in the water. It won't be so many people on one day which is always good for safety as well.

Yeah. And then, we were talking about do we really, does every foiler really need an escort boat? Cause it's not like you have to switch out hydration packs or whatever. It's, usually. You don't have that much interaction with your boat. It's for safety, but everyone also had the satellite tracker and whatever.

So if they had enough safety boats, maybe not every foiler needs to have their own escort boat. I feel like that's overkill. What do you think about that? I don't think any of the foilers or especially the ones that were going fast had any interaction at all with their boats unless something went wrong, like you said.

And I heard that a couple of spoilers, the boats didn't even find them, like they basically went across the whole channel without their escort boat. Oh man. Yeah, I think there were a couple of guys that they didn't find them until they were coming in at the finish. That's crazy. It's tough with so many people out there.

Yeah. Yeah. And then you said you... Yeah, pretty good positioning at the end, like you were like around fifth place or something like that coming towards the China walls, Portlock, and then what happened like that. That last part is always so challenging. So how did that go for you? Yeah, I was coming in and I was like, I'd saved enough energy coming into the end that I'm like, okay, I want to save a good amount for the finish here because you always know how tough it is, especially when the swell is small, you're just going to have to pump quite a bit.

And I tried coming in. I ended up just on the back of a swell along the wall where the wave breaks. I'm like, okay, I'm not going to make it over this thing. I should just try and pull off, catch another wave. And then when I tried to pull off on the one behind me, it just wasn't breaking. So I ended up going over to the other boil next to it and did catch a wave.

And then, but it was too big and I fell on it. And just, yeah, just messed around, wasted tons of time doing it. Was it, sorry, this was at China Walls or further down? China Walls, okay. Yeah, right after I finished, me and my mom and dad went back out on our boat and then was just watching him come in. And, oh, it was such a bummer because he was doing so well and like up with, like up ahead of Kai and Mateo, I think.

Mateo was like next to me coming in. Yeah, I think he was running like fourth or fifth. Was just in between two waves coming around, like right at China wall and then came down and then there, there just weren't many ways to catch. So it was, yeah, it was a moment. Yeah. There wasn't that much energy.

There wasn't many waves coming through that day. And then and then where did you just paddle straight towards the finish from there? Or what was your strategy after that? Were you trying to catch another bump or were you prone paddling the whole way? Or what, how did it go after that?

I decided to wait and catch a bump just because I, there was enough swell that I figured something would come and I did get, I got one first one and then just couldn't hold on to it when I first caught it. And that would have been like good. I wouldn't have lost that much time if I got on that one, but then I had to wait for another one, got on that.

And I think it might have actually been faster if I just paddled in, but. I guess I saved a little bit of energy and then I ended up catching another wave at the next reef inside and pumping as far as I could on that. And then, yeah, just paddling all the way in. Yeah. And then just prone paddling or did you paddle on standing up or both?

I prone paddled most of the way. I know a bunch of people were actually like doing the knee paddle thing which might've been faster, but I don't know if it was. For me personally, I felt like I could grind pretty well laying down. And then once I got close to the finish where it wasn't as windy, I stood up and paddled in.

Yeah, because standing up or kneeling also has more you have more surface area and it's a really strong offshore wind there. So yeah, it's but yeah, it's funny how that the last part is a little bit anticlimactic where it turns into a paddle race, right? But yeah, it's definitely challenging.

A lot. Yeah, a lot can change in that last, not even a mile, really, I think even for first place, I think Oscar was actually the first one to the point. And then James was a little behind and even came down, but luckily got back up on a wave just at China wall and then was able to pump like the connection was really good.

And he was he's really good at pumping as well. So he's able to like pump further in. Yeah. Yeah. Actually, I think he caught a wave further in. He like, he pumped out to like pillars. Yeah, and then caught a wave there and then was able to connect it all the way over the reef and into the channel. So that's how you want it.

So yeah. Cool. Yeah. So that so that was a bunch of exciting races and in a couple of weeks. Yeah. And what's next? Are did you guys know we're doing a wing full race here on Oahu on August 26th? That's like the, we're calling it the Hawaii wing full state championship. So I don't know if you guys can come to that, but that would be.

Another somewhere else plan, but if not, yeah, we're certainly considering it because that could be super fun. You should come over for that Yeah, that'd be cool to have you guys But any do you have any other races planned or doing other competition stuff currently? I think you were considering going.

Yeah, there's a kind of wing wave event in Morocco that I think I'm gonna go do and then Yeah, after that, not much. Yeah, otherwise we're considering other downwind races if they happen, but yeah, we'll see what comes. Yeah, right on. When is that race in, or the wave event in Morocco, when is that?

I think it's end of September. Okay. So if you could design your own competition what would you include? Would it be like racing and freestyle or wave riding or yeah. What would, or does it, would it combine different? Like standup foiling and wing foiling, or what would you like what would be like your ideal race?

If you could pick and choose. Everything would be pretty fun. Definitely a downwind subfoil section and then maybe downwind wing and then maybe some surf foiling and wing freestyle wing and waves. Just everything would be super cool. So like almost like four different division four different competitions and then have a combined score for every, everything.

That would be cool. Yeah. Thanks. I'd be crazy. Yeah, that'd be super fun. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. We're thinking about maybe trying to put something like that together for Oahu. Yeah. So let's talk a little bit more about, about your equipment. So after you, after your sponsorship with Slingshot Energy you're both writing for Duotone Fanatic now, or yeah.

So how did that come about and how's that going? We were just talking to those guys and it. It ended up working out really well because their design team is based on MAUI, which makes it really easy for us to work with them for testing and designing and everything like that. It's really nice to be able to like, meet with people and actually go and ride together sky Solbeck, who's done a lot of the wing boards, and then Ken Winter, who does all the wings, pretty much. They live super close to us, so it makes it really easy. And yeah, it's been awesome working with them on everything. Yeah. And I interviewed Ken and Alan Cadiz and I guess they, they go together on like upwind and downwind to test the wings and see which wing is faster going upwind, which wing is faster going downwind and things like that.

Do you guys go out with them too, or do you, are you part of that kind of the testing crew for the wings? Absolutely. We do a bit of that with them. And then I think a lot of reason why we came in was to test the wings for kind of freestyle and jumping too. Because I guess they don't do that a lot.

Yeah. Yeah, they don't like I know I don't get this doesn't jump at all that's and I think that's pretty smart because yeah for me too like I like to jump but it seems like I always get hurt when I jump that's how I end up getting hurt so I try to avoid it too lately but Yeah.

So what have you guys had any serious injuries? I would, I guess that the infection doesn't really count as a foiling injury, but like what kind of injuries have you had from foiling or water sports? I've had a couple pretty bad, like knee injuries. One a couple of years ago, we were towing and then.

I like fell with one of my feet in the straps and got a little rolled and just twisted my knee super weird. I think I'm, I think I strained my MCL. So that was, I was out of the water for two or three months. And then another time, I think it was the first time I was trying front flips winging. I just landed one super weird and tweaked my knee again.

And then was out the water for another couple months after that. So actually the front flip the forward loop. If we can't, let's is there like a good video that you can maybe talk about that a little bit? Jeffrey will have a lot more video. I think you posted the one where you hurt yourself.

Oh, yeah, I think yeah, it shouldn't be too far down. Maybe Pass this a little further Did you post it? Yeah. Okay. I think yeah the one in the center at the bottom. No, yeah this one Oh, yeah, that's the one I heard myself on. Okay first time trying. Oh, that was your first attempt Yeah. Oh, yeah. It looks like a kind of a rough landing.

So what happened, your knees got discontinued, got tweaked forward or something like that? My front knee, I think I just jammed it super hard into the board and then just tweaked it weird. Okay. So that's what, that's, yeah, I guess for somebody trying it, they don't want to visualize it where you hurt yourself, right?

So let's I. Okay. So do you have a one that you can, is this a forward loop? I think you should go to Jeffrey's page. He's got a lot. Yeah, tell us which one was a good video that you, where you can talk about the doing. Probably. Yeah. A little up. Oh, wait. Yeah. Back a little. The one at the bottom of the center.

That one's actually, yeah, that one's good. This one? Yep. I think the one before might be the first one I posted. Okay. And it was, I don't think like when I was doing this one, I don't think anyone was doing it this style. Like a lot of guys we're doing very like forward loop style ones which were good, but that's when you get like those super hard landings, which can be really tough on the knees and on it.

Like when I was first trying this, I didn't actually like. The rotation is much harder for landing than the backflip, because when you come around the backflip, the board's moving forward, so it's very easy to plane out and get right back on foil. But with the forward, you really have to like, slow yourself down in the air so you have a soft landing.

So I was pretty happy when this kind of all worked and it all made sense. I actually to learn this one, I wasn't completely blind. Wyatt Miller, who's this really good wind surfer was doing basically forwards on a wing. And I like watched his videos and saw his body movement and saw what like I could adjust a little bit.

And yeah, then it all worked out, which was nice. Did you guys ever windsurf? Or before, before starting wing foiling? I can, but I Not a single Not like a single jump windsurfing Is that like how you tuck in on this one it looks A lot like windsurfing like a forward forward loop and wing foiling Like that tucked in Yeah, totally.

I'd say the biggest difference is I'm looking like under my right shoulder instead of back up and over it. But they're very similar for sure. Yeah. So yeah. So give us some pointers on or is there another video we can play here? Yeah, near the top there should be some good ones. Okay. Let's look further up.

At the very top, I've been posting lots of downward stuff. That one on the right, right there. Yeah. Perfect. Okay. So there's, oh yeah, that's a high one. Oh, over rotated. Yeah. So talk, give us some pointers on how to do this move. Totally. Yeah. So the biggest thing I look for is a decent gust.

And that's like for the day you want to make sure when you're in the air, you're not going to hit a hole in the wind and lose power. Cause that's The sketchiest thing and the sketchiest thing is like committing to that forward rotation, right? So as long as you get up and have the power I find it's very consistent to get around.

And yeah, once you get over, it's not it doesn't feel dangerous anymore. Like you can land on your stomach or back even, but the foil under you or to the side of you and it's fine. So yeah, I go, I focus on finding a decent gust. Try and get a good amount of height.

It's the same as the backflip, where if you give yourself a little more time to come around, you're generally going to have it's generally going to be easier to actually make it. And then the biggest thing is I, so I jumped, get in the air, like a, just a big straighter. But then as I'm coming up, I tuck my legs up under me and keep the board pretty like flat.

And then I wouldn't say flat, but like foil facing down. And then once you're at the apex, it's really all about pointing the nose of the wing, just straight down and holding your whole body, like compact and together and strong and then obviously coming out of it, once you feel like you're halfway through the rotation, then you start to extend your legs, trying to reach out and feel for the water on your landing because with front flips you're blind when you're coming in.

Like you don't have the, when you're doing a back flip, you can. Look up and you actually get to see how far you are from the water when you're coming into touch. But on front flips, it's like mostly all about feel. So the more you can reach your legs out and feel that water, the like easier time you're going to have.

Absorbing the impact of the landing.

So I guess, yeah, like for tricks in general it's always good to use like the smallest wing possible handling possible, right? It seems having a smaller wing but at the, it's obviously you don't want to be overpowered and stuff, but you're saying like, yeah, use it basically use a small wing, wait for a good gust.

And then. But yeah, I guess this is saying it's you don't want to be like probably overpowered with a wing that's going to be too big or whatever. And yeah, yeah, the bigger wings just make it more like you more technical, I'd say, like your technique has to be a little more on point because otherwise it'll pull you or throw you in a weird direction that you weren't expecting.

And with the smaller wings, you just get a bit more of that control which definitely makes it easier to learn. Okay. Cool. Yeah, and then I guess, and also you don't really have that issue where you get back winded, like in the back loop, like if you get the wing in the wrong position, it's not like you're going to get back winded or whatever, but what are some of the potential mistakes or things to avoid when you're doing it?

Yeah. It's a funny thing. Cause a lot of. A lot of people that do front flips are they do end up shutting the power off and going much more like over the front and then you can have points where it can potentially backwing but I like to try and keep the power in it just so I don't have that problem.

But yeah, the definite, what are the things that I'd say people struggle with the most? I think a big thing is just keeping your legs really connected to your upper body because a lot of times, especially when I was learning them, I would go with the wing and then just leave my legs and the board a bit behind and then just get stretched out during the rotation.

Yeah, it's really easy to leave the board and foil behind because there's quite a bit of even though the stuff is super high performance and super lightweight, there still is like volume and weight with everything that's on your feet there. So being like focusing on, you get that jump and you're focusing on the height, really just sucking your feet into your or just your knees up and your knees to your chest basically.

And it's not even that much. It's just enough so that you have a good connection. Finn was saying and accusing it all tucked in a little bit, keeping your legs close to your body. The other thing I do is same with backflips. I make sure to not turn too much up into the wind when I'm doing it.

And I think that very, like that allows me to keep the power in the wing a lot easier. And it really makes it so that when you're up in the air and you go to point the wing down, that it really like. throws you around and gives you that rotation because it's easy to come up and Force yourself over, but it doesn't throw you around the same way that it does when you're able to turn off the wind a little bit and really open up that wing to the wind and have it throw you around.

Yeah, but it seems like also like you always pop up and try to get some height before you throw yourself forward, right? Like you don't want to just instantly throw yourself forward as soon as you come off the water, right? Totally. Especially for front flips, it's a lot easier to get a high jump than for back flips.

Because of the way you're holding the wing and the rotation of it. So I always like focus, I jump and then pause for a second and think okay, I want to keep going up here. And then when I feel that I'm high enough for the rotation, then I'll commit to the point in the window and talking and going for it.

Yeah. So how about some tips for landing? Not just and when you're doing flips, but just in general, what's, what are some tips for make sticking a landing and making the landing. Totally. Yeah. And in general, foiling is actually really nice for landing because you get.

Yeah, the front wing and tail wing extended off that mass. So you get like a nice kind of cushion when you're coming in, as opposed to just straight windsurfing, you land so much harder without the foil. Breaking your fall on the water for basically any foil trick. The most important thing is to reach out as you're coming in and you don't want to reach out to the point where you're overextending your knees because then you could hurt them in another way, but you want to reach out enough just so you get elongated when you're coming in. And then as soon as you feel that water coming up, then you want to start compressing and compress as much as you can coming in, using the wing to support your weight as much as possible. That's especially with the front flips. That's one thing I try and work on is.

Making sure I have power as I'm coming down to because it's really easy to jump and do a trick and then not have the wing like supporting you as you're coming down. So you just, you land really hard. So having like doing the rotation, then catching the wind again, as once you're right side up makes the landing so much softer.

Yeah, that makes sense. And then do you like on this jump, you're coming in usually tail first, right? With the foil. Is that, do you feel like that makes the landing softer if you coming in with your tail first? Absolutely. Touching the tail wing first and then the front wing gives it a nice transition when you're landing.

Yeah. I've seen other, some guys sometimes like pointing the nose down, doing like a nose down landing, but yeah, I don't know, it seems like breaking the surface tension with the tail, it's a little bit easier than with the, you definitely don't want to land flat, cause then that can be hard impact, right? Oh, yeah. Given it a bit of angle really yeah. Breaks the surface tension. Like you said, it makes it much more comfortable. Yeah, cool. So talk a little bit about what you guys do when you're when you're not on the water, like what, what are some, do you do any other things like cross training or what do you do for fun and what are your plans and yeah, talk a little bit.

We do quite a bit of training, especially for the races that were coming up. Like. All of that is, it's so much endurance and strength, for connecting the bumps. So we do a lot of, gym workouts, running, all stuff like that. And spend a lot of time surfing, but that's also in the water. Yeah.

Yeah. Regular surfing without a foil or both? Yeah, mostly regular. Both. Totally, yeah. It's tough it's, we're really lucky, here just, you have so many options of stuff to do in the water that you're pretty much there's always something to do. If you're trying, is it a little surf surfing way of getting barreled?

Yeah, it's funny on Maui. Like it's rare to have conditions like that, but we'll add that spot per se. But yeah, we We had a pretty fun winner. It was nice. Yeah, so cool. And here's, A little bit, Finn won the There was trials to get, qualify for the Pan Am Games for 2023. So the picture's just a little lower of Finn in the red jersey.

That's a subsurfing competition. Oh, yeah. We both made the final in and then he won. Which is pretty crazy. Awesome. Surf surfing as well as one of your disciplines, huh? Oh, and then you started. I hadn't really done it in a couple years and then just decided to go to that event. But I think because we've been surfing a fair bit, it came back pretty quick.

Yeah, the surfing helps a lot. Like even surfing helps foiling technique a lot. I feel like it makes it much easier to, know how to transition your weight for certain turns and certain moves. And everything helps everything. I think the foiling strength helps. You're surfing and the surfing helps your foiling and yeah, it's all good.

Yeah. So do you have a favorite sport that you like to do or is it just depending on the conditions, like you just choose your weapon and depending on the conditions or how does that work? I think that's my favorite thing is just there's so many things to choose from. So whenever, whatever the conditions are, you can do something and have fun.

I think especially being on Maui, you need to like, you need to have those options because it's not like the. You're not going to get glassy surfing conditions all the time, and you're definitely not going to get you get strong wind all the time, but there's so many times where it's not as well.

So being able to have the option and go from surf oiling to to winging or anything like that is, is great. So do you think being like being brothers, does that help you like competitively, like where you egg each other on and like watch. Watch the other, your brother and they're doing something.

So you're going to do this, try to copy them or try to keep up with each other. Is that helped you be more competitive? You think? I think it's definitely an advantage. Like always having someone to go with, it was really nice. And then also, like you were saying, you want to, if you want to practice as much as you can.

So having two people out there figuring stuff out and trying, it makes it like, makes it really easy and nice. Yeah, and then when you both compete in the same competition, is it like on purpose that you're trying to do different divisions so you're not competing against each other or do you like competing against each other or yeah, how does that work?

Yeah, I like competing against each other, but I think for all these races, it was just fun to. Do the separate divisions and try to do well in each of them. And then if we could have done both of both, if I could have winged in to him and also done the stuff, like we, we both would have been in both divisions and would have been like totally fine competing against each other.

Vin also is super fast in the SUP oil. He finished second in the gorge race when he was there with, half the community was there and they're all super fast. Yeah. And so he is like as fast as me and I'm as fast as him winging I'd say so. , it'd be like, yeah, it'd be, honestly, we just wish we could do everything.

It'd be fun. Just work out. That's pretty cool. Yeah. So do you have any kind of coaching? Do you have somebody who coaches you or gives you like some. pointers or tips you were mentioning earlier. Kylenny has his personal coach and looking at your infection and stuff. But do you have any, anything that you do like with more like kind of professional sports coach or something like that?

Yeah, it's tough because for foiling, it's also new, and with everything growing, it's not like there's tons of people out there that have. Tons of experience, like specifically in the foil stuff. So for that we don't really have a coach at all. We just work together to figure stuff out, maybe coaches would be like for wing racing, there's mentors from because they win surf race and everything like that. Like I know Alan and Ken have tons of knowledge and that we definitely talk to him about stuff like that. And surfing we get to when we're doing Canadian surf team stuff.

This guy, Shannon Brown, who's amazing to work with. But yeah, in terms of and then we do some gym stuff. There's a, the place deep relief up here, but that's more it's less coaching and more just like workout coaching. How to do the moves correctly without hurting yourself and stuff like that.

So do you focus more on strength training or cardio or both, or what do you do at the gym? Just everything really a lot of, and then working on a lot of kind of small, the smaller muscle groups that you really use a lot kind of surfing and foiling. Yeah, they're really good up there, like focusing on yeah, just working on all the muscles that you don't think you use that much.

But when it comes to all these water sports, there's so many weird situations that you get in that those supporting muscles actually play a huge role for everything like that. Yeah. Yeah, and then also your shoulder, like things like your shoulder rotator cuff muscles and things like that, where that can prevent injury too, if you strengthen those certain muscles and yeah, I guess your knees too and everything, it's important.

And also it's to stay limber and stretch and all that kind of stuff. What about do you watch your nutrition and try to get enough sleep or are you just like. Teenagers that party all night and then go show up the next morning to do a race. Yeah, we definitely just trying to eat healthy, good food and then sleep and sleep a lot.

Yeah we're not like super specific on, specific foods or stuff like that, but we make sure to, that it's at least just healthy that we're eating. And yeah. Definitely not careless with it. Yeah. We're very much thoughtful about it. Yeah. And then what about like you guys, what are your plans for the future?

Are you just going to be professional athletes or do you have any other interests or are you doing any studies or interested in going to college? Or what's your plans? We just started doing all the board designs for fanatic and now we did. We were working with Sky on the new Downwinder boards, and then now this year we're working on all the new wing boards, and then which are going to come out for the next ones.

Yeah, we're basically just seeing how this goes so far and seeing how far we can how far we can go with it and it's been good so far. And yeah, I'm open to stuff, but yeah, we'll see what happens. Yeah, I was really impressed by came to wild. He does a lot of computer, computer work and designing foils and boards and all that kind of stuff.

So do you work with Sky on the design or do you actually work the shaping software yourself? Or have you learned how to work with Sky a bunch? And then now we're doing more of the design stuff on our own. Yeah. And you, what do you use shape 3d or what do you program to use?

It's shape 3d and then a little bit of Rhino, but most people use shape 3d. So that's what we've been mostly. . Yeah. And then have you done any wing designing too? Or just work with Ken on the wings or that seems to be even more complex than designing a board. Yeah. Yeah. The boards are definitely easier compared to the foils and the and the wings.

And we've learned a bit about it, but we're not at the point where we're actually doing any of the design stuff. , yeah. Yeah. Yeah, obviously Ken's pretty pretty into that and making all these different prototypes to test. And yeah, it's it's interesting on a wing.

Like you change one little thing and it makes it work or not work. And you don't even really know until you try it. And so if you change like four things, you don't really know which thing made the difference. So it's you have to be very deliberate and test it. Yeah, it's a super specific process and especially working with the wings is a soft materials when it comes out. So it's sometimes, you try and put one thing in, but it doesn't come out exactly how you thought or how even the file said to how it comes. So it's very, it's a lot of yeah, just working, to like that experience that Ken has means so much when it comes to stuff like that, because he can, you can figure out why exactly stuff's happening, even if, it's not exactly what was.

Supposed to be built or anything like that. So it looks like, I think windsurfing is going to be an Olympic sport, windsurf racing if wing foil racing becomes a sport, would you be interested in trying to be in the Olympics? Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. It'd be cool to have that in the Olympics. I think that might happen actually soon from what I hear from the the racing stuff be amazing.

I think, yeah, it's such a fun type of racing and it it's pretty accessible winging especially So many people that I know when it comes to getting into learning one of the water sports, for them, winging is actually the easiest out of, windsurfing or kiting or anything like that. Even compared to surf foiling, like a lot of people have their first foil experience with the wing, which is pretty, pretty crazy that it's able to teach people so well.

And it's nice that it's so intuitive, which hopefully, yeah, will make it popular and so we can get into those events. Yeah. It's pretty amazing how fast the wing foiling has grown from not existing to now it seems like it's already made a lot of progress. Is there like a dark side to being addicted to foiling and yeah, like just, is there.

I guess for you guys, that's how you make a living too. But is there like a downside to like, where you miss things because you're out on the water or forget something because you're like, is there any thing that you would say is a downside of being much, much less formatted than a lot of other stuff.

Cause you're very dependent on conditions and stuff like that. Especially if you're like doing a competition or something, it's not all there's so many factors that aren't in your control. I was like with other sports, where it's the same gymnastics set up every time or the same skate ramp every time.

So the ocean always is like that, but I think that's why a lot of people love it too. It's like always unique and interesting. So like every session, yeah, every session is its own and it's fun. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. No, no downsides. Yeah, no downsides. Okay. And then I was gonna ask you like Basically when you they always say if you make your passion into your livelihood, then you never have to work.

But is there is there like an aspect to it that, be working basically as a professional athlete and doing it to make a living too, does that take away from the fun part of it? Does it make it more like work or do you guys just always love it? Sometimes you can take it a bit too seriously, but.

You're always you want to work hard and but also keep it fun and just Have a good balance there. Yeah, I think it totally can if you end up having to work super hard on one point and it maybe it gets a Monotonous, but I think the nice thing about foiling especially is like there's all the different parts of it, which keep it very interesting there's circling and downwind and actually even with for downwind foiling specifically i'd say I was You know, not as motivated, maybe six months ago before all these races came through as I had been before, just because I had done it a lot, but after so many, like more fast people came in, the races were super competitive.

I found myself getting like much, much more passionate about it than I used to be like, it was yeah, reignited and wanted to do really well after that. So it like, it can happen, but I think. Just with how healthy the sport is right now and how many people are into it. It's it's going to take a while for it to get like that.

Okay good. So is there, are there any people that you want to thank for getting you to, to where you are today? Yeah, like who, who supported you over the years? We can think of our parents, first of all. Done everything for us pretty much and yeah, we wouldn't be able to be doing any of this without them So yeah, they've been super supportive.

Especially our dad. He's so into winging out himself, which is pretty funny he absolutely loves it. I think he's gone right now. Yeah to thank all our sponsors that we had before all the people we worked with even from alex aguerra to so like Peter Letter and then Tony , Slingshot and all the people there.

Keith Debo a lot. Keith. He a lot the boards. Keith. Yeah. Yeah. And then now with with Duotone, with Ken and Sky and then, yeah. Yeah. We've been very lucky. Like everyone that we've worked with has, is just amazing, , those are all Yeah. People that are still making stuff and still doing really well and, who do you think would be a good good one to interview next on my show here about foiling and wing foiling? That's a good question. I know some of the new kids coming up in Downwind are really cool. Like we just had Mala'e and Brady Hurley over here. They spent a lot of time on the North Shore on Oahu and they're two super passionate, like super fun kids that yeah, that are into it.

They're, yeah, they're great. They'd be super fun to have on. Yeah. And then I'm not too sure everyone you've had in the past, but maybe Keith or something. And yeah, I think. Oh yeah. Cool. Yeah. And you've had Penn on the show. Yeah, I did. It took me a long time to get him. He's hard to get out of his shell, but yeah, it's finally got him on the show and he was great actually.

It's super fun to talk to. Cool. All right. So any, anything else any message you want to send out there to the foil world, like anything else you want to say or mention or talk about? I think just to keep it fun and always to try new things, whether it's. If you haven't downwinded before to go try downwinding or if you don't, if you think you wouldn't like winging, but just to try everything and keep an open mind.

Yeah, I'll say too especially with the the races going on in Hawaii the past few months, the community that has, even before that, the community that's evolved around even each specific aspect of foiling, like there's a super strong wing community. There's a super strong surf foil community.

I'm sure that over on Oahu. And there's a super strong downwind community here and just seeing everyone's, passion for it is incredible. Everyone's super friendly. If you get into the sport, it's really hard not to make friends, when you're out there doing it. And I'm sure it's the same thing all over the world with every FOIL.

community that's out there. So yeah, maybe another good guy to have on the show would be Andrew Gibbons. If you haven't had him on, he just, he like just came up this year doing all the downwinders and he was so fast and he's been here for a couple of months, like all summer and working really hard too.

It's been cool to see. Cool. All right. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's really cool that you you guys are involved in all the different disciplines. Sometimes I think people get too narrow minded about just one doing one discipline and then everything else is crap or whatever.

That's their attitude. And yeah, it's good to keep an open mind and yeah try all the different ways of enjoying it, plus you have more days you can go out, right? You can do something else. So yeah, that's a good point. And yeah, I think just because everyone's having so much fun that it's easy to share that stoke with others.

And just keeping it friendly. And also, I guess foiling is not Yeah, it's not as like sometimes when you're surfing, it gets pretty competitive or it's almost like playing chess to be at the right spot and to catch the wave and get the right, get, be at the point or whatever.

So boiling is a lot more Oh yeah, there's room for another guy. Or, it's not as it's not as people don't get as aggro about it. Yeah. That's the best part downwinding is everyone's just happy to see everyone else out there. Yeah, the more the better really. Yeah, if you pull up the surf and there's 50 people out, you're going to be pretty bummed.

But if you're, if it's that scenario for a downwind or you're stoked. Yeah. You're like, Oh, if there's 300 people at Malico Gulch and it's yeah, let's go. Yeah. No, that's cool. It definitely makes it easier. Thanks so much for your time, guys. I really appreciate you coming on the show and then maybe we can catch up again in a year or two and see what you guys are up to then.

Absolutely. Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah. All right. Good luck. I'm definitely going to keep following you guys, but see what you guys are up to. Oh, by the way I guess the best way to follow you guys is on Instagram probably or So just tell us how can people find you? What's your Instagram handle?

I'm at fin underscore spencer and i'm jeffrey underscore spencer. That's not very original. I'm, just kidding Yeah. It's funny how sometimes people are like, Oh, you're so and so the Instagram handle, right? You're full of fever right now. It's like kind of funny. But yeah, you guys are just your names with underscores in between.

Very easy to remember. Okay. Nobody was, it was taken. So what was taken? Sorry. Oh, the username with no underscore. Oh, I see. Okay. All right. Yeah. Thanks again so much. Have a great rest of your day. You're going to get in the water today. You think probably. I think, yeah, with the fires. Oh, not Finn, because you're still healing up, right?

Yeah, sorry. Yeah, I've been trying to get over it. I might have a friend that I might go help with setting up a shelter for for the fire stuff, or people, displaced from the fire. Might do that as well. Oh, good. Yeah, good. Yeah, definitely. I was actually even thinking about heading over there myself, but then I don't know how.

There's probably no, no transportation and all that kind of stuff. How would it help out? But anyway, but so actually, Finn, I was going to ask you since you can't get on the water what do you do to You. Stay occupied or keep your, yeah what do you do to stay happy? But been working on a lot of boards recently to just new prototype ones, so that's been keeping me busy, luckily, and trying to keep, stay sane, and then, yeah.

What kind of these board designers, like your biggest challenge is like downwind foiling standup foiling or wing foiling, or what kind of boards are you working on? Working on all of those pretty much the biggest challenge ones were the downwind boards when we started working on them last year.

And then there's just so much to learn when, cause it was all pretty new with Dave coming out with those longer Barracuda boards. And then he'd come up with those and we still went through the whole process of we thought we. Cause we tried so much stuff and yeah, it just ended up like, yeah, I don't know, learning a lot through all that.

Yeah. So that was definitely a challenge, but also a really cool learning process and just to get to the point where we got to and learn. Yeah. I learned a lot. So what's something that's surprising, like on, on board shape that surprised you or something you learned from making a mistake or something like that?

Is there any, anything you can share like that design wise? Yeah. I think there's a lot just. Just how many aspects of it there are that like just the outline and then the bottom shape and the rails and there, yeah, it's like everything's, yeah, everything's super important you can make, yeah, like you're saying a few changes and it's a completely different board, definitely still not as complicated as the foils or wings.

Yeah, most of it's at this point, it's very subtle stuff, like you change the rocker a little bit and it just completely stalls the nose or it makes it ride super well. So A lot of stuff like that. Things like that. So in terms of volume, like what what kind of, like on a downwind board, what do you ride?

Like how many liters, like compared to your body weight? Like how do you gauge the volume of your boards? We're riding around like 80 or 85 liters. And I think I weigh like 140, 145 and Jeffrey's around 150 maybe. So you're quite a bit, have extra volume basically in the boards more than you need to float, right?

Yeah, we, I could probably float like on a 70 liter. Yeah, I think my subsurf board, which I it's at the top of the water for me is around 63 liters. So it's nice. It's nice to have that bit that a fair bit extra volume. Just for getting going. That's about like maybe 30% more volume than you need to float.

Basically, something like that, maybe. Probably, yeah. Honestly, it comes around the small side for our weight still compared to what everyone else is riding. And then what about length and width? What do you like to use? I think we're like, we have a couple of different boards. We have some we're in like a 6'4 to 6'10 range just for what we're riding.

And the around 19 wide 19 to 20 wide. And what about the Molokai race? What length board were you on? Basically that it was actually I wrote a longer one for that race. I wrote a seven. Six. Six? Yeah. Yeah. That's what I think most guys wear on seven, six or even longer, right? It's because of the start and the finish.

Once you're up, the shorter stuff's nice, but getting going, that length helps so much. And then obviously paddling all the way in, it's a little easier on the longer one. Sure. Yeah, that makes sense. All right. Good. That's good. Good feedback. Good information. All right. I'll let you go.

Have a great rest of your day guys. And yeah, take care. Talk to you later. Yeah. All right. Thanks so much for watching another episode of the blue planet show. All the way to the end. You're one of the 5% of the people who start the video and finish it all the way to the end. I know some of you also listened to it as a podcast and probably more than 5% listened to the whole thing.

So I do appreciate everyone that listens or watches the show. Hope to see you again soon. Stay stoked. Maybe I'll see you at the, Hawaii wing full championship race on August 26. We're still planning to hold that. So hopefully we'll get some wind and so on. And we'll make it a fun party afterwards as well.

So hopefully we'll get a good turnout and make that into an annual event. So thanks again, everyone for watching. See you on the water. Aloha.