Show Notes: Why Church Size Matters — The Hidden Link Between Church Culture and Church Hurt

Episode Title: Why Church Size Matters: The Hidden Link Between Church Culture and Church Hurt

Episode Summary In this episode of The Church We Dream Of, Kia Gutiérrez unpacks a truth many believers feel but rarely know how to name: church size creates its own culture, and when we don’t understand that culture, we’re far more likely to experience hurt that could have been avoided.

Drawing from Timothy Keller’s insightful work on church size and culture, Kia offers a clear framework to help you understand how different sizes of churches function, why they feel the way they feel, and how unmet expectations can quietly turn into disappointment, misunderstanding, or wounds.

If you’ve ever asked, “Why does my church operate this way?” — or struggled with frustration, burnout, or hurt in church spaces — this episode gives you language, clarity, and hope.

Kia breaks down why every church size — from living-room gatherings to multi-hundred-member congregations — forms its own relational rhythm, leadership style, and expectations. When we misread the culture, we misread people, and that can set the stage for hurt.

Most church hurt isn’t caused by malice. It’s caused by mismatched expectations. Kia explains how knowing your church’s size helps you hold realistic hopes for relationships, communication, access to leadership, and spiritual formation.

• Anyone who has felt unseen or overwhelmed in church spaces
  

• People healing from church hurt and looking for clarity
  

• Leaders managing growth, decline, or cultural shifts
  

• Believers trying to discern what type of church fits their needs in this season
  

• Church members who want emotionally healthy expectations and better relationships
  

church size, church culture, church hurt, Timothy Keller church size, why church size matters, emotionally healthy church, church relationships, unmet expectations in church, church conflict, church leadership culture, healthy church dynamics, Kia Gutierrez, The Church We Dream Of podcast

What You’ll Learn in This Episode

-:How church size naturally shapes culture

-The surprising connection between expectations and church hurt

-How to lead your church intentionally based on it's size

-How to choose a church

Who This Episode Is For

Understanding the link between church size, culture, and hurt doesn’t just protect your heart — it strengthens your community. This episode will help you name what you’ve felt, make sense of your church experience, and walk into the next season with clarity and confidence.

Episode Overview

In honor of their 13th wedding anniversary, enjoy this behind the scenes sermon draft from host Kia Gutierrez and her husband Alejandro. This sermon was presented in their local church, exploring marriage through Genesis 2-3 and professional counseling wisdom. They combine biblical teaching with therapeutic tools for healthy relationships.

The Dog Miscommunication After a miscarriage, both separately adopted a dog to make the other happy—neither actually wanted it. Lesson: Well-intentioned assumptions create problems.

The Bank Account Year 5: Kaia revealed she kept a separate account as a "backup plan" if Alejandro left. Closing it became a marriage turning point, choosing biblical vulnerability over worldly wisdom.

The Original Design

• "Naked and not ashamed" = vulnerability and trust with God at center

• The serpent's strategy: questioning and distorting God's word

• Eve adds to God's command ("don't even touch it")

• Fear and shame enter through miscommunication

Application Without God at center, we can't fully trust each other. The enemy uses the same tactics today: doubt, distortion, fear, and shame.

Happy couples don't fight less—they fight better. 69% of problems are perpetual (never solved).

Surface Issues vs. Reality:

• Dishes → feeling invisible

• Phone usage → feeling rejected

• Schedules → fear of abandonment

"Conflict isn't failure—it's a distortion ready to be removed."

1. Take Strategic Breaks

• 20 minutes to regulate

• Always say when you're coming back

2. Curiosity Questions

• "What does this mean to you?"

• "What are you afraid of right now?"

• "When you said X, the story I told myself was Y. Is that what you meant?"

3. The Most Powerful Tool "I know I'm missing something. Help me see what you see."

Approaches conflict with curiosity, not certainty—returning to God's ideal.

1. Communication protects marriages (overcommunicate!)

2. God must be at the center for trust

3. You're both hurting—not at war

4. Separate intention from impact

5. The enemy's strategy hasn't changed

6. Conflict invites vulnerability, not defense

• Bema Podcast

• Bible Project classes

• Gottman Research

Closing Vision: "Our hope is that the church becomes a lighthouse for healthy marriages—that people are drawn to church by the joy and life they see in our marriages."

Note: This recording is a sermon draft presented to their local church body.

Key StoriesBiblical Teaching: Genesis 2-3What Conflict Is Really AboutPractical ToolsKey TakeawaysResources Mentioned

Jesus Remembers - Developmental Trauma and the Childhood of Christ

Episode Summary

In this powerful conversation, host Kia Gutiérrez speaks with Christeen Luxem about her upcoming children's book "Jesus Remembers," which explores the possibility that Jesus experienced developmental trauma during his childhood. Drawing on historical context, neuroscience, and theology, Christeen offers a compassionate framework for understanding how God truly knows our suffering—even the suffering we experienced as children.

Christeen Luxem has spent over 25 years as a military spouse, traveling the world alongside her husband Tony. Together they've been in ministry for nearly 33 years, leading retreats and serving military families. As a foster and adoptive mom who homeschooled her children for 25 years, she's advocated for children and women who've experienced abuse and neglect. She holds a Master of Arts in Counseling and Psychology from the Seattle School of Theology and Psychology and is the founder of Stego Play Therapy in Lacey, Washington.

• Developmental trauma: What it is and how stress, terror, abuse, neglect, and systemic oppression impact brain development and our ability to connect safely with others

• Jesus's childhood trauma: Exploring the historical context of Jesus's birth and early years, including forced migration, the massacre of infants, refugee status, and cultural oppression

• The power of children's books: How story, art, and play create pathways for difficult conversations between parents and children

• Attachment vs. authenticity: Why children sacrifice authenticity for attachment, and how adults often bring this pattern into their relationship with God

• Neuroplasticity and healing: How repeated safe, playful experiences reshape neural pathways in both children and adults

• Cultural rhythms of remembering: How Jesus's Jewish community used rhythm, music, food, and communal storytelling to integrate trauma and build resilience

"When I think of the ways that Jesus has suffered, then I feel like I have a God who is with me in my suffering... God has experienced that and so really can be with them."

"Children will always choose attachment over authenticity... We don't have to sacrifice authenticity to have attachment with God."

"God is not afraid of our pain and God is gentle with us too."

"Jesus lived the suffering of our children as a child, in a child's body... He had to live the power dynamic of being a child and a refugee."

Resources Mentioned:

• Jesus Remembers (forthcoming children's book by Christeen Luxem, illustrated by Joshua Luxem)
• Gabor Maté's work on attachment and authenticity
• The Seattle School of Theology and Psychology

Currently in draft form with illustrations by Christeen's son Joshua (a tattoo artist), "Jesus Remembers" imagines Jesus's childhood based on historical and biblical context. The book is designed for children who have experienced:

• Forced migration or refugee experiences
• Foster care and family separation
• Abuse and neglect
• Preverbal trauma
• Annihilation anxiety

The book ends with Jesus welcoming children, reframing the familiar scripture: "Let the children come to me"

For more episodes of The Church We Dream Of, visit Spotify or Youtube. To learn more about Stego Play Therapy, visit Christeen's at : https://stegochildtherapy.com/

In this episode of The Church We Dream Of, Kia Gutierrez explores how the American church has lost the ancient practice of reading scripture as interconnected whole texts—and why reclaiming this art is essential for our faith. Through an examination of Jesus' last words on the cross, Kia reveals what happens when we read the Bible in fragments instead of as the complete, layered masterpiece it was designed to be.

• Jewish tradition: Celebrating passages you don't understand as "gifts" to unwrap through study
• The original practice of memorizing entire passages and connecting texts through opening lines
• How scripture was preserved orally and through scrolls before becoming a book
• Why reading isolated verses strips away the essential context and meaning

• Western approach: Emphasis on certainty, correct interpretation, and verse-by-verse study
• How American church culture shifted from holistic understanding to fragmented reading
• The cost of treating scripture as isolated sentences with beginnings and endings
• Why we've become uncomfortable with mystery and incomplete understanding

• Traditional Western interpretation: "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" as a single statement of abandonment
• The complete picture: Jesus invoking ALL of Psalm 22 through its opening line
• How scrolls worked and why opening lines served as "titles" that invoked entire texts
• What the original audience would have immediately understood—and what we've missed

• The complete context of what Jesus was actually communicating from the cross
• The full arc from suffering to victory that Jesus wanted people to remember
• Prophetic details matching the crucifixion, written centuries earlier by David
• The message of hope, not defeat: God has NOT turned His face away
• The promise to "a people yet unborn"—us

• Challenges the idea that sin separates us so completely that God must turn away
• Reframes the crucifixion as declaration of victory, not defeat
• Questions power dynamics: Can humans create something (sin) that's untouchable by God?

• How well-intentioned simplification has led to generational loss of biblical literacy
• The difference between teaching scripture directly vs. teaching interpretations of scripture
• The "recipe" analogy: how churches have drifted from the original ingredients
• Why adding to the recipe means subtracting from its original intention

• Modern technology and resources make ancient reading practices accessible to everyone
• It's no longer a luxury—it's a responsibility
• The joy of discovering that everything in scripture is connected
• Why incomplete understanding is a gift, not a failure

Key Quotes:

"When Jewish scholars would come across these presents, these places of a lack of understanding in their text, they saw it as a present from God to them that they would now get to go on a journey to unwrap together."

"Jesus is not saying, 'I want you to notice a scripture.' He's saying, 'Remember the book. Remember all of Psalm 22.'"

"Because the sin is so great and so heavy, we cry out and that doesn't make him turn away. It makes him turn towards."

"Whenever we step away from reading scripture and teaching scripture directly... we are now offering an interpretation of scripture and not scripture itself."

"Everything is connected. And if we don't see the connection, it's just because we haven't found it yet. It's not because it's not there."

"We are the people yet unborn. We are the generation that gets the New Testament."

"The Bible is the ultimate Easter egg. Everything is so deliberate and precise. It's such an exquisite gift."

What does whole Bible reading actually look like in practice?

• A table
• Some food
• A Bible
• Community
• A lifetime commitment

Coming Up

The next three episodes will feature conversations on marriage, parenting, and church systems through the lens of relationship, followed by a synthesis episode tying it all together.

Host: Kia Gutierrez, Marriage and Family Therapist and Church Leader
Podcast: The Church We Dream Of

Host: Kia Gutierrez
Guest: Christopher Barnard, Sr.

In this episode, Kia welcomes back Chris Barnard for a hands-on walkthrough of how to study Scripture through an Eastern lens—specifically, how to do a word study that actually deepens your relationship with God and strengthens your understanding of Scripture.

Chris breaks down the exact three-step method he uses, shares the tools that make it accessible for anyone, and shows how this kind of study can transform the way we understand relationships and power dynamics—especially in marriage.

If you’re longing for Scripture to feel alive again, or you’re trying to grow in emotional and spiritual maturity, this episode will give you practical tools you can start using today.

Notes From Chris

Key Topics Covered

• Study is meant to enhance, not gatekeep, your relationship with God.

• You don’t need hours a day—just consistency.

• Context protects Scripture from being misused or “cherry-picked.”

Chris shares:

• Why he begins every day with a 5-minute devotional

• His go-to titles: Streams in the Desert, Morning and Evening (Spurgeon), and YouVersion devotionals

• How keeping notes tied to devotion readings helps you track spiritual history and God’s faithfulness

A method designed for real people with real lives:

• Understand who the passage was written to and why

• Avoid cherry-picking—look at the whole story

• Use tools like study Bibles, commentaries, and BibleGateway

• Compare translations side by side (NASB, NIV, KJV, etc.)

• Look for differences—they’re not red flags, they’re fun flags

• Translation differences signal that the original word carries layered meaning worth exploring

• Writing (or typing) the passage slows the mind

• Active voice helps you hear the text differently

• This creates space for noticing patterns, hyperlinks, and repeated words

Chris walks through the resources he uses:

• Blue Letter Bible (free, powerful for Hebrew and Greek)

• Concordances for root meanings

• Bible Project, Tim Mackie, BEMA Podcast (Marty Solomon & Brent Billings) as learning companions

Chris highlights the signals that something deserves a closer look:

• Repeated words or phrases

• Patterns

• Hyperlinks between verses or stories

• Cultural clues you might miss in a Western reading

• The very first time a word appears in Scripture

• Translation inconsistencies

These are the kinds of moments where Scripture opens up in surprising ways.

Chris reminds us:

• The goal of study is to grow closer to God

• A deeper understanding of Scripture leads to healthier relationships

• Jesus’s lens—love God, love your neighbor—should always frame interpretation

• When we study this way, Scripture becomes more than information; it becomes transformation

Chris applies his method to Genesis 2:18–24, exploring:

• The Hebrew meaning behind key words

• What those meanings reveal about partnership in marriage

• How Scripture addresses power, mutuality, and unity

• Why this matters for couples seeking emotionally healthy, Jesus-centered relationships today

• Blue Letter Bible (online + app)

• BibleGateway.com

• Streams in the Desert

• Morning and Evening — Charles Spurgeon

• Bible Project

• BEMA Discipleship Podcast

• NASB, NIV, KJV translations

• Christians hungry for deeper Scripture understanding

• Couples wanting to grow together spiritually

• Leaders longing to teach the Bible with integrity

• Anyone tired of surface-level readings who wants Scripture to come alive again

Follow Kia Gutierrez and @thechurchwedreamof to keep growing in emotional intelligence, spiritual depth, and church health.

Episode Title: Eastern vs. Western Bible Reading: What American Christians Miss About Scripture— with Fire Chief & Ministry Leader Chris Barnard

In this episode of The Church We Dream Of, Kia sits down with Chris Barnard—husband, father, fire chief, children’s ministry leader, and deeply committed student of Scripture whose walk with Jesus has been marked by humility, hunger for truth, and a willingness to follow God into the unknown.

Chris shares his journey from growing up in a faith-filled home, to rediscovering Scripture as an adult, to developing a profound passion for understanding the Bible in its original cultural context. His story is a powerful reminder that spiritual growth doesn’t come from rushing to conclusions—it comes from engaging Scripture slowly, relationally, and with curiosity.

Together, we explore:

• Why so many Christians haven’t read the Bible cover to cover—and why that’s more common than you think.

• How Eastern vs. Western thinking impacts Bible interpretation, faith formation, and the way we understand Jesus’ teachings.

• The problem with “product-driven” American Bible reading and how it leads to misinterpretation.

• Why Jesus’ culture matters when reading the Sermon on the Mount.

• How Chris’ study of the Tanakh (Old Testament) reshaped his understanding of what Jesus meant by “fulfilling the Scriptures.”

• The surprising grace-pattern woven through Genesis, from the first pages of Scripture to the ministry of Jesus.

• How to shift from reading the Bible for answers to reading it for relationship.

• Baptized as a teen in the Puget Sound, where his personal walk with Jesus truly began.

• Married 22 years to his high school sweetheart with two young adult children.

• Acts as Fire Chief at Joint Base Lewis-McChord.

• Serves faithfully in children’s ministry, men’s ministry, and hospitality.

• Experiencing what he calls a “season of waiting” in his calling—but with a growing hunger for Scripture that is undeniably Spirit-led.

If you've ever felt unsure how to approach the Bible, wondered why different Christians interpret Scripture so differently, or sensed that something about the Western approach to faith feels incomplete—this episode will encourage you.

Chris brings depth and honesty without pretense. His reflections will help you see the Bible through a more ancient, relational, grace-filled lens, and remind you that Jesus invites us into formation, not performance.

Bible interpretation podcast, Eastern vs Western Bible reading, Sermon on the Mount context, how to read the Bible better, Christian spiritual formation podcast, understanding the Old Testament, Jesus and the Hebrew Scriptures, Bible Project discussion, BEMA podcast influence, modern church Bible literacy, Christian testimony interview, faith and calling stories.

This conversation will stretch your thinking and deepen your faith. Tune in, take a breath, and rediscover the beauty of Scripture through a lens that’s older, wiser, and far more relational than anything Western culture has handed us.

Episode Summary:
In this episode, Kia continues the conversation from last week’s discussion about the pulpit—where it came from, its power, and its limitations—and moves into what happens after we step down from it. Drawing from the ancient concept of the Bema, a raised platform used both for teaching and for communal dialogue, Kia explores what it means to engage in meaningful conversation once the preaching stops—and discussion begins.

Through the story of the disciples on the road to Emmaus (Luke 24), Kia unpacks how Jesus models listening not as passive silence, but as a deeply relational act marked by curiosity, presence, and compassion. She explores how our ability to listen to understand, rather than to fix or judge, can transform relationships, churches, and entire communities.

Key Themes & Takeaways:

🔹 Listening Beyond the Platform
When we step off the stage or pulpit, the rules change. Speaking is goal focused—but listening is relational. In conversation, we must learn to share space, take turns, and cultivate presence.

🔹 The Epidemic of Not Being Heard
Kia reflects on her experience as a therapist, where countless people come to counseling simply because no one in their lives knows how to listen. Being heard isn’t about being fixed or judged—it’s about being understood.

🔹 How Jesus Listened
In Luke 24, Jesus listens to the disciples’ confusion and grief without correcting them immediately. Though He is the only one with all the answers, He withholds explanation until they are ready to hear. His listening becomes a form of healing, allowing grief to breathe before truth can take root.

🔹 Listening as Validation, Not Agreement
Validation doesn’t mean saying “you’re right”—it means saying “I see where you’re coming from.” Jesus meets His disciples on the road, walks with them, and reminds them of where they’ve been which leads to their ability to see who He is.

🔹 From Marriage to the Church
Kia parallels this with couples therapy—how many conflicts resolve the moment one partner truly sees the other. Listening removes distortion and allows hearts to reconnect. The same principle applies to the church: listening well to one another—and to those who’ve been hurt by the church—is a form of evangelism reimagined.

🔹 A Surprising Insight
Kia shares that when she offered therapy from a “Christian worldview upon request,” she expected Christians to seek her out—but instead, it was people hurt by the church who came. The ones hungry not for answers, but for a safe space to be heard.

Scripture Reference:

• Luke 24:1–35 — The road to Emmaus and Jesus’ model of compassionate, curious listening

Reflection Questions:

1. When was the last time you felt truly listened to—without being fixed or judged?

2. What prevents you from listening to understand rather than to respond?

3. How might your church community change if listening was treated as sacred as preaching?

Quote from Kia:

“Listening isn’t about gaining information—it’s a gift we give so that relationship can grow. Listening is evangelism reimagined.”

• • Instagram: @healdeeplovewide

  • Substack: https://kiagutierrez.substack.com/

  • Website: www.kiagutierrez.com

Podcast: The Church We Dream Of
Host: Kia Gutierrez
Theme: Rethinking Authority, Presence, and Power in the Church

In this episode, Kia Gutierrez unpacks one of the most central — and complicated — symbols of modern Christianity: the pulpit.

The pulpit is powerful, but it also carries inherent pitfalls. It elevates — literally and symbolically — one voice above many. In doing so, it often creates unrealistic expectations for both the preacher and the listener. Kia explores where this model came from historically, how it evolved from the Greek “bema” to the modern church stage, and what we lose when faith becomes a one-way performance instead of a communal dialogue.

You’ll hear Kia discuss how Jesus’ teaching models — from one-on-one encounters to large crowds — reveal the strengths and limits of public preaching, and how the true power of revelation lies not in amplification, but in intimacy with the Holy Spirit.

This episode invites us to reimagine the pulpit, not as the center of the church, but as one of many spaces where God’s voice can be heard and shared in community.

• The historical evolution of the pulpit from the Greek bema

• How church architecture shapes authority and attention

• The unintended pressures and expectations placed on preachers

• Why the pulpit can’t (and shouldn’t) facilitate your personal faith journey

• Jesus’ model of communication: solitude, one-on-one, small group, and public sermon

• Why the pulpit is not a power amplifier — it’s an audience filter

“The pulpit is powerful, but it’s also limited. It was never designed to carry the weight of everyone’s personal faith.”

“Our churches are built like theaters — the lights, the platform, the seating — all of it tells us who we should be looking at.”

“The bema in ancient times wasn’t about a preacher’s interpretation; it was about reading scripture aloud and then discussing it together as a community.”

“We can’t expect one person on a stage to speak perfectly into every individual’s experience. That’s an unrealistic amount of authority to give anyone.”

“If we believe in Spirit-led preaching, we must also become Spirit-led listeners.”

“The pulpit doesn’t make your words more powerful — it clarifies who you’re speaking to.”

1. When you walk into a church, where does your attention go first — and what does that tell you about what (or who) you’re centering?

2. How might your relationship with God deepen if you approached sermons as one voice among many, instead of the voice?

3. What would it look like for your church to reimagine the pulpit as one expression of community, not the center of it?

• • Instagram: @healdeeplovewide

  • Substack: https://kiagutierrez.substack.com/

  • Website: www.kiagutierrez.com

In this episode of The Church We Dream Of, Kia unpacks the language of trauma—what it means, how it shapes our faith communities, and why understanding it is essential for building the kind of church Jesus dreamed of.

Through a powerful story from her time serving at a recovery center for survivors of human trafficking, Kia explores how trauma doesn’t just live in individual bodies—it lives in the collective body of Christ. What happens when the way we communicate, lead, and worship carries the echo of pain we don’t yet have words for?

“If I do not have trauma and you do not have trauma and I say to you, you can trust me, you hear me say, I can trust her. She’s got my back.
But if you’ve experienced trauma—if someone once said you can trust me and then harmed you in an incredibly significant way—
the next time someone says those same words, your body doesn’t hear trust, it hears danger.”

This episode bridges theology and neuroscience, offering a crash course on:

• The neuroscience of trauma — how our brains and bodies react to hard things.

• Developmental trauma — what happens when safety and connection are disrupted early in life.

• The cultural shift — why trauma is no longer an “us or them” issue, but a shared human story.

• Neuroplasticity as proof of redemption — the brain’s ability to heal as a reflection of God’s restoring power.

• Trauma and church culture — how unhealed pain can distort community, leadership, and mission.

• The call to action — partnering with the Holy Spirit to build trauma-informed, spiritually grounded churches that cultivate safety, healing, and transformation.

Kia invites listeners to imagine what it could look like if the Church became the safest place on earth to heal — a place where redemption isn’t just preached, it’s practiced.

💭 Reflection question:
Where have you seen trauma shape your community’s story—and how might the Spirit be inviting you into restoration?

🎧 Listen now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you stream.

In this heartfelt conversation, Kia Gutierrez sits down with her husband, Alejandro Gutierrez—a first-generation immigrant, educator, and ministry leader—to explore what God taught him through an unexpected lesson on comfort. After leading a ministry trip to Mexico City, Alejandro returned with a powerful revelation: that sometimes the greatest danger to our faith isn’t hardship, but comfort itself.

Together, they unpack what it means to live as citizens of heaven rather than citizens of comfort. Alejandro shares candidly about going back to his hometown expecting revival, only to be confronted by exhaustion, disappointment, and the humbling reminder that transformation doesn’t come through us—it comes through Jesus.

Kia and Alejandro discuss how comfort can quietly erode our hunger for God, how success in ministry can be confused with ease, and how discomfort—spiritual, emotional, or cultural—can become sacred ground where dependence on God grows deeper.

Whether you’re leading a church, raising a family, or simply navigating your own “Mexico City”—the place where your expectations collide with reality—this episode invites you to reflect on where comfort may have replaced calling, and how to return to a posture of trust and surrender.

• The hidden danger of comfort in Western Christianity

• Everyone has a “Mexico City”—a place where expectations meet reality

• Relearning dependence on God instead of personal strength or strategy

• The difference between success and obedience

• Discomfort as a tool for spiritual growth

• Remembering the value of faith when life is easy

“Everyone has a Mexico City—a place where you think you’ll bring change, but instead, God changes you.” — Alejandro Gutierrez

“Sometimes we treat our Christianity like tap water. It’s so easy to access that we forget its value.” — Alejandro Gutierrez

“It’s not your job to save people. Your job is to point them to the One who can.” — Alejandro Gutierrez

Alejandro Gutierrez is a multi-language learner teacher with a master’s degree in education, a speaker, and ministry leader passionate about cross-cultural connection. A first-generation immigrant from Mexico City, Alejandro is committed to bridging cultures through language, education, and faith. He serves alongside his wife, Kia Gutierrez, as part of their local church community in Washington State.

Join Kia and Alejandro for a vulnerable, hope-filled conversation about rediscovering dependence on God when life becomes too comfortable.

👉 Available wherever you listen to podcasts.
Episode: The Danger of Comfort — The Church We Dream Of