THE CREATIVE SHIT SHOW

It’s just us hanging out and getting ready for the weekend. We explore the summer slowdown, the medicinal benefits of cannabis and CBD, including packaging design trends for this growing industry, using the LinkedIn channel to your advantage, and shoot the shit. Grab a cocktail (or a “sample”) and join us.

Show Notes

Idea Shop by Neenah: www.ideashop.com

LinkedIn Learning: https://www.linkedin.com/learning/

LinkedIn Premium: https://premium.linkedin.com

LinkedIn Newsletter: https://www.linkedin.com/help/linkedin/answer/a517925/create-a-newsletter-on-linkedin?lang=en

Creative Shit Show on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/CreativeShitshow

Advertising Federation: https://www.aaf.org

It’s a Magical Creative Shit Show with the incomparable Bill Gardner of Gardner Design and LogoLounge.com. Bill took co-hosts Jamie Saunders, Von Glitschka, Karen Larson, and Justin Ahrens on a captivating journey through design history offering up insanely good advice on refining your designs, a beautiful analogy of how fishing and design are similar, dealing with clients who think they’re designers, and hidden features on logolounge.com. Grab a cocktail, have a laugh, and learn from a design master.

Show Notes

Enneagram: https://www.enneagraminstitute.com

Enya: https://youtu.be/7wfYIMyS_dI

Bill Gardner/Gardner Design: https://gardnerdesign.com

International Brotherhood of Magicians: www.magician.org

Harry Potter: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Potter

HOW Design Live: www.howdesignlive.com

Imposter Syndrome: https://www.apa.org/gradpsych/2013/11/fraud

Michael Penda: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michael-penda-64399257/

Chad Michael: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chadmakersonmichael/

Wormwood: https://worldbranddesign.com/chad-michael-studio-mrswormwood/

Paul Rand: https://www.paulrand.design

(Photos Below)

• Paul Rand’s Home and Desk in Connecticut (note the t-square on the title white table)

• Bill Gardner with Paul Rand’s T-Square, oil painting is Paul Rand’s “Crossing of the Delaware”

• From Paul Rand’s Desk, tools now owned by Bill Gardner, the sheets in the middle are Rand’s notes and drawings for a logo he was developing

Westinghouse Logo: https://www.paulrand.design/work/Westinghouse.html

Wichita, KS: https://www.wichita.gov/Pages/default.aspx

Cessna: https://cessna.txtav.com

Learjet: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learjet

Boeing: https://www.boeing.com

Beechcraft Aviation: https://beechcraft.txtav.com

Wichita AIGA Chapter: https://wichita.AIGA.org

LogoLounge.com Trend Report: https://www.logolounge.com/trend-reports

Gordon Kaye: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gordon-kaye-0b97a91/

GDUSA: https://gdusa.com/

Felix Sockwell: https://www.linkedin.com/in/felix-sockwell-9358497/

Robin Raye/Modern Dog: https://www.linkedin.com/in/robynne-raye-4144911/

Communication Arts: https://www.linkedin.com/company/communication-arts/

Patrick Coyne: https://www.linkedin.com/in/pacoyne/

Join: LogoLounge.com: https://www.logolounge.com/join

Steven Heller Interview: https://www.printmag.com/daily-heller/the-daily-heller-what-loopers-rooters-whiplash-and-macaroni-have-in-common/

Very Rough Transcript:

Jamie Saunders

We are excited to bring in the wonderful Bill Gardner of gardner design case you're not familiar with Bill. He's produced, effective and award-winning results for clients ranging from fortune 500 companies to one-man shops he's the founder of logo lounge dot com the international searchable compendium of logos I love that ah Bill also authored the affiliated. best selling logo lounge book series. He's the author of the annual logo lounge trend report which we're going to talk about a little bit today. He's an AIGA fellow for his contributions to the local national and international creative community and he has a hundred other things on his wonderful resume. Ah but what I want to focus on is that he has completed a 6 year term as the territorial vice president of the international. Brotherhood of magicians congratulations Bill Gardner welcome to the shit show. You can talk now please talk now. It's why we invited you.

Vonster

Nice.

Bill Gardner

Hey we're here does that mean I can can I talk now. Ah.

Justin Ahrens

You can, but before before you start talking I have to understand how did did you just retire from that. Did they vote you out or is all your magic on like how did that work.

Vonster

It was a wizard coup.

Bill Gardner

Ah, yeah, well and and and he's not far off the the the name ah is actually the wizards of Wichita and that came about long before wizards kind of adopted an entirely different moniker. So yeah, no, they.

Bill Gardner

They they pick somebody to kind of ride over all the magicians and they thought that I was so full of it that I could probably do that. So I finally gave it up. Yeah, go figure.

Jamie Saunders

Oh. Um, it's amazing I pictured some sort of duel. Did you guys a little magical duel or with their hands. They're like shooting sparks and like like it's the whole thing.

Karen Larson

Yeah, kind of with ah with your wands.

Bill Gardner

Okay, okay, so we're we're we're we're gonna we're going to get this off track before we even get it on track which is that magicians So Magicians have.

Karen Larson

Right.

Vonster

Ah, an opera guide.

Jamie Saunders

That's how we do things you're familiar with shit show

Karen Larson 

Ah, welcome to the shit show.

Bill Gardner

Absolutely and I'm going to get so much crap about this but I'm talking to designers not magicians here. They have absolutely some of the worst psyches and issues and but of of all the people in the world and I sold magic to people forever. Think about what a Magician does a Magician is kind of meaner and inner boo I know something you don't know okay who wants to do that. Think about that individual that individual that needs to detract such attention to themselves that you could generally and in you and work.

Karen Larson

That sounds like a number 8 and enneagram.

Jamie Saunders

Super confident is what I'm hearing super confident. You need to be a magician.

Bill Gardner

About the enneagrams but you know and yeah, it's It's mostly a bunch of people that um, as as good as they are. They need the attention and they're they're on their way to a divorce.

Justin Ahrens

Hey Bill ignore Karen keep telling your story about magic I am I am locked in.

Bill Gardner

They're on their way to separation. They're on their way to medication and it's and and that's minus the 10 people that are in the magic fraternity. 

klarson

Um, ah, cool.

Jamie Saunders

Well, that was an amazing start. It's a magical shit show I Love it. Why didn't I think of that.

Bill Gardner

There we go. So so I decided to get into design where everybody is in order and they've all nobody has an ego. 

Vonster

Um, respect.

Karen Larson

So let's talk about that.

Jamie Saunders

Um, well that's a great lead in to kind of where we actually wanted to go with this and I I think that we and the design world could benefit greatly from hearing about how you actually got started in the design industry I don't think that.

Bill Gardner

Yeah, yeah, this is where Justin steps out because he's already heard all this and bon has it I think we've already had all this already. So I was originally supposed to go into the family business which was real estate appraisal. Okay.

Jamie Saunders

I don't know your story I'm not sure how the group feels but um I'd love to hear how you got started with design. 

Bill Gardner

Can you see me telling people what their houses are worth no neither and I actually studied for that end marketing and I've got to I've got a degree in business and that's where it started and I had to tell my dad dad I can't I I've got more talent than that in other areas. But I I can't add numbers up and I can't you know. I'm goingnna I'm going to go off and I'm going to go draw pictures and I I left. Um I wasn't tied down I had a roommate I'd been doing magic. My roommate was a magician he was up at Kansas State University and that school and he said hey I've got ah I've got an extra room. You want it you you want to kind of the caseate so it was going up there to do magic and maybe I'll look at maybe I'll do a little bit of design while I'm up there and I enjoy design and pretty soon I found out but they didn't have much of a design program came back to Wichita State after having met my wife up there.

Jamie Saunders

Aw.

Bill Gardner

Future wife and completed degree in design nobody would hire me so I started my own business and that was it 

Vonster

Did you ever saw your girlfriend in half?

Jamie Saunders

Um, metaphorically not physically don't.

Karen Larson

Um, that's a random um question.

Vonster

Like reflect.

Bill Gardner

Okay, let me let me put it this way I left more girls just kind of raggedly cut partway through but I never really made it in half. Yeah nobody was murdered in the process of learning magic. No.

Vonster

Okay.

Jamie Saunders

And no one was murdered in the creation of the shit show.

Karen Larson

So.

Jamie Saunders

Ah, that's awesome I I don't know I cannot imagine you selling real estate that would be so weird. What a waste of your talent.

Bill Gardner

Yeah, you know it it. It really was a great profession for the family and they they all did very well with it. But yeah and I you know and to to see something that was kind of I was thinking about this the other day.

Karen Larson

Yeah.

Bill Gardner

My dad who had been mayor of Wichita and was you know, very well- known and very well connected came to me when I told him I wanted to be a designer and he goes built I don't know anybody in design I'm not sure I can help you I'm going dead. It's okay I think I'll figure it out and you know he. He was one of the most honest, wonderful individuals that always wanted to help people but he felt so badly about the fact that he didn't know any other designers that he could really introduce me to or that he could help in some way. So yeah, yeah.

Jamie Saunders

Um, that's so sweet 

Karen Larson

That's so sweet.

Jamie Saunders

Jinx. Buy me a drink.

Justin Ahrens

Oh my God So really quick just one side question. So you said magicians were insecure and and they were creative so that they're like designers.

Bill Gardner

Okay, jinx.

Bill Gardner

Um, yeah, yeah there there are a lot of there is a lot of similarities in there. You know I mean we so we were all at how design life here a couple of months ago a month thick or so ago and it seems like god everybody was talking about imposter syndrome.

Bill Gardner

And I mean that that just you know again again I if I had to hear it one more time but it really rings true with Magicians and designers I think ah is that they've got these insecurities.

Karen Larson

But why why built because I need to ask. Why do you think that we hear about it all the time now but we didn't hear it all the time twenty years ago in the business I mean it just.

Jamie Saunders

I've been wondering that same thing.

Bill Gardner

Um, yeah, um, okay you you you want an honest answer which is that I believe so much of what consumes us now is relatively delivered to us on our mobile devices.

Karen Larson

It wasn't a thing then.

Bill Gardner

And because it is so quick and so easy for people I was just having this conversation with Michael Pindo who's one of our great designers Michael is deathly allergic to peanuts and we are going Michael you know hey you know thirty years ago nobody knew about peanut allergies.

Jamie Saunders

Until now.

Bill Gardner

Thirty years ago nobody knew that if you ate a piece of bread that it would you know make you feel bad thirty years ago we used to ride our bikes behind these bravey trucks that would be spraying from mosquitoes sucking down dt you know, but we all still live. You know and I you know, but.

Karen Larson

There you go. We used to hitch onto the back of cars and let them drag us in the snow time ever. Ah.

Bill Gardner

Exactly and we loved it man going up yo both ways but you know it was one of those things where if if I think you look at so many things today and we've we've become so damned introspective of ourself. You know it's it's.

Jamie Saunders

Um, the good old things.

Bill Gardner

You know why? Why am I this way. Why can't I figure out what my thing is in life. Why is it that I can't you know and we we're looking for something to attach it to honest to God and it's not what I disbelieve that people that have ah issues have issues I'm policy I know I've got issues I mean you know I've got issues.

Karen Larson

Um I agree.

Bill Gardner

But it's one of those things where you know I don't dwell on it and it's kind of like I feel really badly that I'm not empathetic about everything that everybody's got going on. Wow did I Just lose an entire audience.

Justin Ahrens

That's for sure.

Karen Larson

Right. Yeah, hear hear.

Jamie Saunders

Um, the world is um, no, you're good I think they're used to it by now. But oh I think that's amazing answer.

Karen Larson

But again, it's like it wasn't a thing thirty years ago and I think that I'm with I'm ah I'm in a little bit with Bill where I feel like everyone's diagnosed with something nowadays and.

Bill Gardner

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

14:11.83

klarson

Because of and yeah I believe yeah, every but you know so many people have ADD no question. But I think it's blown up and emphasized because of you know the it's almost like a bandwagon you jump on it.

Karen Larson

A DD whatever do some of these differences that people have that's what makes von so creative. That's what makes you know that's what makes people unique and how Justin you but you all have a d d.

Bill Gardner

So yeah. You know I've had I've had conversations with all of you independently we all have issues I know that perfect you know we we all had things that we dealt with growing up with we we all had issues every one of us. But man.

Karen Larson

Isn't that the truth. Yes.

Jamie Saunders

Yeah, yeah I think so.

Bill Gardner

I Think we all succeeded in some way didn't we

Karen Larson

Yep, whatever it all strengthens us I'm a firm believer in that.

Bill Gardner

Yeah, and by the way for those that don't know everybody on this podcast is drinking and they're drinking heavily. So now if you want to know how they got through it.

Jamie Saunders

Ah god we did not endorse.

Karen Larson

Ah, clanks glass.

Justin Ahrens

We do we We do not endorse excessive drinking but we do endorse drinking.

Jamie Saunders

Yes, yes.

Bill Gardner

Are yeah you you know if you can only see everybody is swigging ah bonds bond bun bohead liquid running down his neck through his beard and down. Yeah down his wife Peter.

Jamie Saunders

Um, he's just drinking tea. Yeah, what? yeah, he's got some peachy tea or something.

Karen Larson

He's drinking some fruity Starbucks drink.

Vonster

No ice cappuccino.

Karen Larson

Oh there we go see I was close.

Bill Gardner

Um, there you go I could reach up here and pull down a bottle of Chad Michaels wormwood I could crack it open and I get bun send me ah, send me a good label on it's got a whole show full of good labels up here.

Karen Larson

Ooh.

Karen Larson

Nice So tell us about so tell us about gardner design. Um, honestly I think so much of the audience knows you from logo lounge which we'll talk about that but we don't realize that you have this amazing firm.

Bill Gardner

Ah, yeah. Um, yeah, yeah.

Karen Larson

Um, so you know tell us a little bit about your firm. How many people you have what type of clients you have doesn't you know.

Bill Gardner

Yeah, So um, gardener design literally came out of the fact that nobody would hire me and we already covered the fact that I was doing magic when I got out of school and I would go into interview and people would say yeah your portfolio is great but show me a trick. Because they knew that I did magic and I realized I had to put the magic away and focus entirely on the the design and my dad had an extra office in his real estate office and I literally put a shingle out and opened the door and said great I'm gonna I'm gonna have my own design firm I'm gonna you? what.

Karen Larson

Perfect.

Jamie Saunders

I Love that I Love that.

Bill Gardner

Yeah I mean that was made and it was and it was a freelance kind of deal where I was kind of going until I find a job and probably about a year into it I had enough work that I had to hire somebody to help me with the work I was doing and I was still going out on interviews and guy's name was Steve Wheeler he says Bill. You know you know? yeah. I'm mean employers you're you're out looking for a job and I've got a wife and a child and we're dependent on on a so if you get a job I don't have a job so I at that point started to realize as I'm hiring people I'm going. Okay, we've actually got a firm. This is you know this is a real thing. And I've been very fortunate that you know when when I first got into this nobody really knew what logo design was nobody really knew I mean yeah so this was 1983. That's when the door opens and um I'd been out. Yeah yeah.

Jamie Saunders

Um I believe it when I was 10

Justin Ahrens

I was 11

Bill Gardner

When I mean you hell you weren't even a glimmer yet you you know that I I can remember my my my group.

Karen Larson

Oh just shut up. You guys.

Jamie Saunders

With my adhd riding my bike around in the summer burning off. Okay, good.

Justin Ahrens

Um, yeah Karen was Karen wasn't born yet Karen wasn't born yet.

Karen Larson

Ah, because I was in my last year of college though I was right with you bill.

Bill Gardner

Yeah, show show of hands. No, actually who who is more than None you guys were all see no hands came up. No hands came up nobody nobody ah you got.

Karen Larson

Oh who acts like they were more than ten in 1983

Jamie Saunders

I don't act my age now and I'm more than 10. Go on, sorry.

Karen Larson

Ah, no, but no, but 1983 that was a tough time that was a tough time because the economy was yeah yeah, yep.

Bill Gardner

Ah. Um, so Garden design. It was yeah no, the economy was for shit then and I mean you you had to work like hell to find somebody that was willing to pay you money for drawing a picture for him. And I mean and that's how they perceived you know and that was probably how I perceived it at the time was it was no more than just drawing a picture.

Vonster

Where were you doing were you doing everything like traditionally I mean because I know at that time the only Mac out was Apple to yeah okay, well good.

Bill Gardner

Oh yes, no there. There were no Mac then, come on, Von.

Karen Larson

There's key line key line list that doesn't count.

Jamie Saunders

I had a paper and pencil.

Vonster

Um, not Macs but there was Apple too like I didn't need this. No I know.

Bill Gardner

That.

Jamie Saunders

He had a rock the chisel like that's what we're talking about that hold you chisel Bill's showing us his antiquated design tools.

Karen Larson

Yeah, oh nice T Square I Love it.

Vonster

Um, and there you go. Nice.

Bill Gardner

And I'll tell you something.

Vonster

T square.

Bill Gardner

In anybody want to know where that T square came from this this is this is Paul Rand's T square and this is hi a poll. Yep.

Justin Ahrens

I Love that you said it that way it sounded so inappropriate.

Karen Larson

It's T square. Um, where did you, oH NO way. Wow.

Vonster

No.

Justin Ahrens

You're lying. You have Paul Ryan's T Square?

Vonster

But what was he on Paul Rand and who ah those.

Jamie Saunders

That's amazing.

Bill Gardner

Is Pi apo and his T square and I've also I've also got a bunch of.

Justin Ahrens

All right? Okay, stop stop stop. how did you get Paul Rand's how did you get Paul Rands stuff

Jamie Saunders

Um, it's all his. Yeah yeah, what's the story.

Bill Gardner

Yeah, um, so about three years ago paul ranza state went up for auction and um and it was an amazing auction. It was online and um I don't know maybe None different lots. Of things and I ended up buying a number of things some paintings that he had done I've got a whole set of his french curves that he used to to draw stow you know and all all of I bought basically all of his different you know, drawing tools and.

Vonster

Ah, fast more.

Jamie Saunders

Really.

Justin Ahrens

Um, so cool.

Jamie Saunders

That's incredible.

Bill Gardner

It's kind of like I I look at that and I'm going. Okay the UPS the Westinghouse logo he you know he ran his you know and this is so when Von is asking about tools I wasn't using that kind of T square that.

klarson

That is so amazing.

Bill Gardner

You know I mean it was one of those deals where yeah I mean I had a drafting board with a parallel bar on it. You know lots lots and lots of templates and you know circles and ellipses and stuff and that was how I was drawn them. How are you drawing them.

Vonster

Yeah. Yep, cool I didn't oh no no no no I learned everything traditionally and it wasn't until a couple years after I graduated that I even touched a computer. Yeah i.

Karen Larson

That was the best.

Bill Gardner

Did you did you start before the computer. Yeah, yeah.

Bill Gardner

Um, yeah, yeah.

Vonster

I'm kind of glad it worked that way because it developed analog skills that most people kind of ignore now.

Bill Gardner

Yeah, you you and I know how to use it in exact drive pretty well and probably everybody in here has cut off that portion of their index finger at one point with a number 11 blade. Um.

Vonster

I Um I I was and I was in we were in. We had a mechanical class in art school.

Karen Larson

Absolutely Yes, yep.

Justin Ahrens

Um, you know you know it's.

Jamie Saunders

This is why I use a pencil only pencil I don't lose sharp objects.

Vonster

And all the overlays and I'm trimming the edge of the overlays with the straight edge and Xacto and somebody said something I looked up as I'm pulling it down the the straight edge slice right in my hand ruined everything. Yeah that those were the days.

Jamie Saunders

Oh no, no oh.

Bill Gardner

Yeah, we but but but it's.

Justin Ahrens

Well hey this then I I so I so I swear to a guy that you last night my I was telling my kids about like how we started in the business I'll never forget my very first job I finally got asked to prepare the ads and if you remember we would put ads on.

Bill Gardner

Sure and you wax the type so it would stick.

Karen Larson 

I Rubber cemented.

Justin Ahrens

You know, boarded and flap them so you could carry them to the office and I remember this is yeah yeah, and this was like this was like the this was our biggest client at the time I Never forget I was cut in the board and you know you always got to change the blade but I was like just the last cut of the last board.

Jamie Saunders

Oh cool.

Justin Ahrens

And I sliced off the corner of my thumb and ah it got everywhere and my boss ran in looked at the boards and he's like you ruined the boards.

Bill Gardner

So.

Jamie Saunders

Um.

Karen Larson 

That's right, It's like as long as send us no blood on the boards were good.

Bill Gardner

Um, yeah.

Justin Ahrens

So like I remember I I picked up that little piece and put my hand in the bag ice went to the ER and I'm like he only cared about the boards.

Jamie Saunders

Um God let's go.

Vonster

Um.

Jamie Saunders

Um, but to this point bill I'm a bill and Vaughn. No, that's okay I i't mean to interrupt your your beautiful bloody story. Ah.

Bill Gardner

You know what? seriously everybody here has as at one point or another cut their finger up. Yeah, were you saying Jamie.

Karen Larson 

I can. Ah.

Bill Gardner

Ah.

Vonster

Okay I have the next question for you bill and that is gardner design has a distinct aesthetic, especially your firm's logo marks and I was just curious.

Bill Gardner

Yeah, yeah.

Jamie Saunders

Oh.

Vonster

How was that established and maintained with newer designers as you onboarded them.

Bill Gardner

Yeah, do you do you really think that it has a style and that's yeah, okay, it's interesting me hear you say that because um I one of my designers Brian Miller um a number of years ago made the comment that I think it is more.

Vonster

Oh yeah.

klarson

Yes.

Jamie Saunders

Yeah, definitely.

Bill Gardner

That our style is quality then it is a style and it you know? Ah so it's that it has reached that certain level and and one of the things you may or may not know is that when and and guys we have ah some tremendous. Logo and identity designers that work here and have worked here over the years that have gone off and started their own studios and and so on and so forth and I have made very little money designing logos in my life because we always spend more time working on an identity. Then we will ever be able to build and part of that is that we will present a logo with maybe None or 10 logos oftentimes the worst of which is 10 times better than the best that most people would offer up and when you.

Bill Gardner

You know and you just force yourself to keep going George Bakwa the designer made made a comment to me a number of years ago that I that I really loved and it was that so many designers design like they fish and not not knowing how many of them fish but it's that you set your hook. For a certain depth. You know that your fishing is six foot down and he says when you're fishing six foot down everybody is going to catch the same fish but when you end up setting the hook deeper and you dive deeper down in the water. It's going to get murky and dark and you're not going to see much. Until you get to the bottom and when you get to the bottom you're going to see some of the most amazing creatures that swim by that glow in the dark that have things that you've never thought about and he said those are the logos. Those are the ones that you want to bring up and share with the client and.

Karen Larson 

No pun intended but that's where the magic happens.

Jamie Saunders

Um, that's awesome. Um.

Vonster

So deep fix your designs I like that.

Bill Gardner

Yeah, yeah, and yes, you know it's guys you know take all the None stuff that you've drawn and throw it away because everybody else has drawn that too.

Vonster

Low head.

Karen Larson 

So how many how many designs do you do? Um, when you're designing a logo and a brand what how many designs does your team go through to pick those 10

Jamie Saunders

Um, oh I Love that.

Bill Gardner

Um, you know it's oh god um I think I think maybe Vaughn has seen some of our exploratory pages before that we've done. We've so I've got ah I've got a kind of a set rule. Um, whatever, whatever the platform is. You're designing in that you you work on a design and is you think? Okay I wonder what would happen if I did so and so you dupe it off and then you make that modification and then you dupe that off and you make that modification and you think of this other idea and you leave that and come down on the other page. And you build all that stuff on that page and we are undoubtedly going to cast off a lot of stuff that might be really good ideas. So it's important that the other designers in the shop look at that page and go wow I really like this did you you you skipped by that.

klarson

Who.

Bill Gardner

And we do that naturally because I think when we design you know we're on a track and you know we're we're trying to get to that next thing and sometimes we don't take time to look out the window of the train and see the beauty of what's going on. You know the things that you're kind of creating along the way and. Ah, by by doing that you can see the trail of where you went. We all know that there's that thing about yeah, you take something and you you start to reduce it to the point where you don't recognize it anymore and then you take a step back you know and and that can be kind of a rule. But I think that by creating that track in there that. It really gives you a chance to kind of go back and see where something has hit its magic point and it's not uncommon for us to Karen you were asking how many you know ah a page a designer does may have a None decent directions.

Bill Gardner

But it may have 50 that are worth really looking at and it may have 20 that you would show somebody and it may have 10 or 7 that really are the cream and that's the stuff that you pull out and and and you show and.

Karen Larson 

Right. Nice.

Bill Gardner

So if you ask me why there is that style. It's the style is quality and it is that you know we just refine stuff. The other thing is that everything that we create has to have at least 3 levels that it lives on it has to.

Bill Gardner

You You can look at it literally and go. That's a shoe and then you have to look at it again and go okay, that's Italy Oh the texture on that is the leather that they're known for. And the strap on that as it comes across helps form the initial of the company and it's it's all of these things where if a person that looks at it just sees the literal aspect of that logo and that's all that there is they are going to walk away from it.

Karen Larson 

This is.

Bill Gardner

And that's all that they will ever remember. But if they have an aha moment. It's like when you're listening to that song that you've heard a None times before and you hear a lyric but you're going god I never heard that lyric that way and you go god I own that now and it makes a person own a brand.

Jamie Saunders

Um, and yeah.

Karen Larson 

Right? That's wonderful.

Jamie Saunders

I Love that.

Vonster

That is That's awesome.

Bill Gardner

Okay, get off the soapbox now.

Jamie Saunders

Um, oh it's stay on the soapbox. That's why you're here.

Justin Ahrens

Not It's great Bill I Just you just I just wept a little bit that was so beautiful. Thank you.

Bill Gardner

I okay now I can actually see Justin right now and what's happening is he's wearing a pair of pins and he wasn't when he says he wept what I mean of what I think he meant.

Vonster

Right math.

Justin Ahrens

Um, well you know I do turn 50 this weekend. So ah, I'm yes yes yeah

Jamie Saunders

Oh my god.

klarson

Um, yeah.

Bill Gardner

You you may have heard wept but he said wet I wet a little bit there I would know. Okay, no, do you really turn fifty this week is this really your birthday weekend.

Karen Larson 

Um, yes, so let's not let's not make it about Justin right now. Um.

Jamie Saunders

Oh my gosh.

Justin Ahrens

I Do but let's not talk about as but let's not talk about that. Let's talk about you bill. Let's talk about you? Yeah yeah.

Jamie Saunders

Um, we already celebrated that it how it's over it happened already. We already celebrated that we blew out candles. You got your cake. Yeah, it's not about you justin we're back to Bill Karen and and Justin have already been celebrated.

Bill Gardner

Ah, okay.

klarson

Um, right like right? So so be happy. Yeah, so how do you clients find you? yeah and or you find them is.

Bill Gardner

Yeah, um, so if I've got a regret. It's that I have never spent more time out hustling clients looking for them because I have always we've we've been very fortunate that. There has been a good line of people that had courage coming to us saying Wow Would you do this for us and you know you can sometimes be fully stationed just by working with what comes through the front door and to some degree we do that You know that's Ah, a big chunk of it. 

Karen Larson

Now is that based on referrals is that based on. Um you know the knowledge. How do they know? how do they know you? How would how do how? how do they find you in the midst of everything else and I really don't know what the how much of it is.

Bill Gardner

Um, yeah, yeah, so um, we'll do a dive here then for those that don't know I'm in which do handsnsas which is dead in the middle of the us let let me let me rephrase that which is alive in the middle of the Us.

Karen Larson 

You know what's going on in Wichita and how much of it is national or international.

Bill Gardner

Um, and Wichita is a community of about None but the state of Kansas you drive a long ways between towns. They're not all right next to each other and when you start looking at the number of entrepreneurs.

Jamie Saunders

Um.

Bill Gardner

And really amazing companies started here. Wichita is an aviation center um Cessna and lear and boeing and beach all started here at Wichita um, and.

Bill Gardner

Continue to fabricate and build here and it is just a highly industrial community and a lot of business going on. So it's been a great place for me because it's small enough to know yourself. But it's also small enough for others to know yourself and.

Bill Gardner

Um, there's there's kind of an ethic in Kansas that you don't you don't brag about what you do, um, you know you're you're relatively humble. So I don't belong here. Um, no okay, they've they've hung on me anyway. But.

Justin Ahrens

Effective.

Bill Gardner

Ah, you know, um, when um, when a fortune 500 company from this area needs us they they' come to us but the cool thing is that through logo lounge and I I know we're going to get the logo lounge eventually that. There's a level of notoriety that came with starting that up twenty years ago and the writings and everything else that we've published that have really expanded as way outside of this market. Plus I started the Aig chapter here with some folks back? um in 87.

Karen Larson

Ah.

Bill Gardner

And we were there were only 16 Aig chapters in the in in the world at that point and came to know and spent a lot of time with a lot of name brand designers at the time that were way out of my league but that allowed me to become good friends with them.

Karen Larson

Right.

Bill Gardner

And they helped me along ah in the effort. So man it's it's all about connections guys people that you're connected to are the ones that hire you.

Karen Larson

Yeah I yeah, it's really actually pretty fascinating what what goes on in Kansas um, with all of the different industry and creatives and it's like it's the.

Jamie Saunders

Um, and we say that all the time.

Bill Gardner

Yeah. Um, you know what? you know it? Karen yeah.

Karen Larson

Weird little hub in the middle of nowhere I feel like yeah yep.

Justin Ahrens

Well bill I I want to really dig in here and um, ah I want you to think of you know, like the biggest you know shit show Client project Horror story.

Bill Gardner

Um.

Justin Ahrens

You know, let's let's let's really dig into the worst experience well because you know I don't think we talk about these things enough and and I think I would love to hear you know what happened for you? yeah.

Bill Gardner

Um, I've never had 1 of those ever. No I've never had 1 who what can? Yeah yeah.

Karen Larson

That's what we need.

Jamie Saunders

Stop it.

Karen Larson

You don't have to name names.

Jamie Saunders

Yeah, there's no names just stories.

Bill Gardner

You know this this this this is a kind of thing that I I had I had this conversation with somebody recently that I think thinking of those stories is kind of like um you know God God's ability to make. Ah women so that they can forget what childbirth felt like so that they would continue to Procreate. You know it's kind of like I I'm relatively sure that we all kind of as designers just kind of want to wipe those memories from our mind because the f and we're getting is worth the f and we're getting.

Vonster

Fast.

Jamie Saunders

Um, oh my god.

Bill Gardner

So you know ah you you just want to kind of put that out of your memory and.

Justin Ahrens

Are you giving me hold on Bill Bill Gardner are you giving me a non answer right now I'm I'm not going to accept that what are you running for for an office in Kansas.

Jamie Saunders

Um, what is happening in Kansas like.

Bill Gardner

Yeah, no, okay um I I may have I may have shared this story with somebody before but here's this This is one of my very very very favorite instances and I'm actually gonna name a name here. Um.

Jamie Saunders

And his dad was the mayor I mean you heard he learned from the best.

Jamie Saunders

Well spill the tea.

Bill Gardner

So there was a yeah, we'll we'll get the liability suits going there. There was a a veterinarian whose name was Dr Bogue in this area and he had clinics all over and this has probably been I don't yeah yeah and he's no, he's still around and ah.

Justin Ahrens

Rest in peace Dr. Bogue oh sorry

Jamie Saunders

Oh.

Bill Gardner

Probably and I don't know about 15 about fifteen years ago um we had just started publishing all of the yeah well we had started publishing all the local lounge books and you know getting great notoriety out of that and I get this call from Dr Bogue and he goes Bill Gardner yeah

Jamie Saunders

When you do.

Bill Gardner

And the way the way that this call leads in you're going? Yeah yeah, and he goes this is Dr Bogle oh well how are you? Dr well great is this I he says I picked up None of your books. Ah, well that's so kind of you and he's going ne says me. Logos in there I was mostly looking kind of the stuff by buying glitchka but there was some amazing but no okay, you didn't really say that but but he's going you. You're you are an amazing designer I well well thank you for anyway, she says I am getting ready to open a new clinic and I would like to reidentify um I'd I'd like a new logo.

Vonster

Yes.

Bill Gardner

And said what God you know? Thank you so much for calling. He says I've already drawn the logo I just need somebody that can put it into the computer.

Jamie Saunders

Oh.

Justin Ahrens

Perfect.

Karen Larson

Oh my god.

Bill Gardner

You know it? Yes, it's one ah and everybody here has had that experience where somebody has come to them you know? except yeah I got I got it or Nick care of and doctors are notorious for this doctors believe they can do everything so they always you know on it. Sorry.

Vonster

Ah, ah, ideal client.

Jamie Saunders

I Already know what I want.

Vonster

Oh yeah.

Karen Larson

Um, ah oh yes.

Jamie Saunders

I Don't even need you? yep.

Bill Gardner

Already drew the thing up. Well anyway, he says yes as I've already drawn it up and I says it looks great I'm good I'm sure it does he goes? ah but I just need somebody that can draw it electronically and and digitally and I swear what I stopped and said was Dr Bogue says

Jamie Saunders

Ah, let's see it.

Bill Gardner

Maybe maybe we can do a trade because this weekend I'm going to do some surgery on my dog but I need somebody that can close him up when I'm done.

Justin Ahrens

You didn't say that. Yeah.

Bill Gardner

I did and because I knew this was going nowhere and I was going you know I've always wanted to just these some of a bitch you set me up you know, but he just he kind of he did this. Ah I said no seriously.

Karen Larson

I Love it.

Jamie Saunders

I bet he did.

Vonster

Yeah, ask I lost them. But.

Jamie Saunders

You wait see you're not going to do it. Yeah.

Bill Gardner

He said dude I said I'm he says if you I said if you've drawn a logo just work with your logo. You'll you'll you'll be perfectly fine. You don't need me to come in and you know, kind of help you close that logo up. Do you and he goes I get it I get it.

Jamie Saunders

Scan it in.

Karen Larson

Ah, like.

Jamie Saunders

Oh he got it.

Justin Ahrens

Okay, well let me let me ask you? Ah, let me ask you this question because we just had this happen to us and I'll tell you at the end if you're interested how it how it worked out so have you? Yes I've already forwarded your name. Um.

Bill Gardner

And that was the end of the call. Yeah Boom Yeah are you gonna pass him on to me.

Karen Larson

Wow.

Jamie Saunders

Ah, you were the one person he thought of.

Justin Ahrens

Ah, we recently did ah ah ah, a couple logos. We thought there were wonderful sums of the client like it was one of those slam dunks where I actually couldn't figure out which of the 3 I liked better like and I was I was like oh worst case I'll have a hard time picking so what I get instead is.

Bill Gardner

And and Yeah, yeah.

Justin Ahrens

These are great Blah blah blah and then the wonderful but scroll down to the bottom of my email I sketched on a paper towel. Ah how like sort of an amalgam of the ideas. Um, and.

Bill Gardner

Boom.

Jamie Saunders

How it could be better. Yes.

Bill Gardner

Yep, um.

Justin Ahrens

Ah, this is never really happened was actually happened maybe twice in 20 Well here's the thing it's happened twice in 22 years and this one I looked at and I was like huh that's actually pretty good and ah.

Bill Gardner

Was it a good suggestion. Okay.

Justin Ahrens

We I'll tell you the ending you can share if you've had this happen to you and then we we took it and and you know, kind of re um, redrew it and and you know put our magic on it and me in the creative director and designer looking at and I'm just like this is the best logo of the 4 of them and they picked it and they loved it. Um, so.

Bill Gardner

No. Yeah, yeah.

Justin Ahrens

They they don't always turn out bad I know if it was would have started that way I never would have took the job but have you had that happen where a clients come to you with with a sketch or a tweak and and I don't mean like we we collaborate all the time. But I mean I'm talking about a totally redraw.

Bill Gardner

Um, no, they don't Um, yeah I think hell yeah. Yeah, not so much a redraw on it. But I mean it guys. You got to listen to the client I mean they're the ones that are paying you and you know you're not designing for yourself. You're designing for them Now. You can you can try and tell that aesthetic story and.

Karen Larson

Yep.

Jamie Saunders

Um, ah Karen always says that.

Bill Gardner

Yeah, you know it's you're trying to guide them. But man if you listen to him sometimes and I know it hurts our egos to believe this but sometimes they've got great input and you know more often than not and you know I've yeah.

Justin Ahrens

Yeah I would say I would agree I would take this so I would take this sometimes out and say you know most often you know one of the things I did earlier in the career if I was offended or whatever or annoyed by client feedback. Um finally I stopped and say why am I so annoyed about it.

Bill Gardner

I get it.

Jamie Saunders

Um.

Bill Gardner

Yeah.

Justin Ahrens

Right? And it ended up being because I wanted them to do what I wanted them to do right? But so I wasn't listening and then as that shifted you know that's why like when I got that napkin I was laughing because I'm like damn this is really good right? And ah, we're going to crush it and we did and they loved it and it's wonderful. We're and removing but um.

Bill Gardner

And yeah.

Jamie Saunders

Um, and.

Bill Gardner

Um, yeah. But I'll also bet you that when you looked at that napkin that you ended up bringing your own magic to it and creating What was really exceptional now they may they may have delivered a concept or an idea but you know you didn't just scan in what they gave you and say here it is.

Justin Ahrens

You know I think that.

Jamie Saunders

I will.

Justin Ahrens

Oh no for sure. Yeah, it looks It looks much. It looks much you know more refined and different and all this stuff. My point is like I really appreciated that feedback. You know I can't say most of our clients will be able to provide a sketch and it would turn out that way right? because we've had someone that they draw us the tick figure and say hey I want.

Bill Gardner

I Mean you brought your own aesthetic code. F. Um, felt like a bond piece. Yeah. Yet. Yeah, and.

Justin Ahrens

Basically this with some cool type right? um.

Jamie Saunders

Um, oh.

Karen Larson

But but don't you think clients are a lot savvier now than they used to be as far as.

Bill Gardner

Um, um, yeah, go on.

Jamie Saunders

I Would love to hear von's take on that.

Justin Ahrens

That's a tricky quick. That's a tricky question Von and Bill you can take that one.

Vonster

I I wouldn't say by default. No I It just it's hit or miss. It's like I've had clients who I didn't think would have any possibility going off the rails who.

Bill Gardner

Okay.

Vonster

Have enough experience to keep something on track and it's still blew up where I've worked with people who are small business owners have no clue about marketing or branding and the process has gone really smooth and they actually had some really good ideas this one.

Bill Gardner

Who.

Vonster

Ah, this one guy I've been work with 15 years he's not a creative. He's not a designer he does coding for artificial intelligence. He's smart but he comes up with the best brand names for stuff and yeah, yeah, right.

Bill Gardner

He's just artificially smart and he's just artificially intelligent and.

Karen Larson

Right? ah.

Vonster

His ideas for um, he's a Maverick entrepreneur so he starts all these businesses and he's successful with them. But he's just really good. Anybody can be creative. So I think it can come from anywhere.

Bill Gardner

Um, I think we've gotten to that point where and again through a lot of through social media that everybody has become some level of an expert and that everybody believes that their opinion is a value in every arena. And everybody's opinion is of value. Yes, everybody's opinion in every Arena is not necessarily of value I used to you know we we do a lot of nomenclature too here.

Bill Gardner

And my opening line did some to a client when we're starting to make that presentation to them after we've done over discovery and often aing likes is that you know when I present a logo to somebody I don't immediately have somebody go with a pencil. Did you think about drawing this and they draw me a picture. But inherently when we present names clients will oftentimes start writing down names before you know during a presentation before you've even shown them what you've come up with. They go did you think about someone's so because we all deal with words and it's important that they be involved in this process because it's from those words much like you were just saying Justin that you know somebody comes up with an idea that you're kind of on but that's genius. You know, but from a logo perspective which was a question you asked.

Karen Larson

Right.

Bill Gardner

Or from a design perspective I think that more and more clients are getting savvy. But I think that there are more and more clients that just believe that they are savvy that um are out there. Um, so.

Karen Larson

Okay, that's good. 

Vonster

That's a good big part.

Jamie Saunders

Well and I think like part of what you're touching on is really interesting because you know having sat on the corporate side of it and someone's bringing you know something to us those were those were my favorite parts of my day that's Karen and I always say we want you know. Creative infusion to be the most fun part of your day that we we don't want you to dread our meetings we want you to look forward to the meetings that we have and so I I sometimes take that stuff as a compliment when we present something and and the and the client gets jazzed and has a ton of ideas because you've. Sparked something in them. They might have been dead inside since their ten o'clock coffee you know that they're sitting there running reports and being told what to do and where to go and you know and that if you can be that person that sparks ideas in a corporate client or a client in general. That's I mean that's part of the fun to me.

Bill Gardner

Will say nothing. Always always remember. It's a dialogue not a monologue and I have to remind myself of that. Sometimes yep.

Jamie Saunders

You agree? Um, yeah, yeah, and you can't get married to things you know because you just don't know where it's going to go. So yeah I love that? Well so.

Vonster

Yep.

Karen Larson

Yep yep. Right? 

Bill Gardner

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jamie Saunders

I would be remiss if we spent all this great time with you and we didn't discuss logo lounge and and you know you've hinted at it and got us excited about it. 

Bill Gardner

Um, sure yeah, no, um so this is our twentieth year of doing the trend.

Jamie Saunders

Um, that's amazing. So.

Karen Larson

It's amazing.

Justin Ahrens

Congratulations.

Bill Gardner

Thank you and it's and it's not like you guys haven't been a big part of it because actually in fact, um I know Von's been in there several times I think that Justin you've been in there a time or two Karen you certainly had input over the use. This is one of those things where the trend report kind of came out of um. Gordon K one of my and Jamie I had this conversation a little while ago because she helped us a little bit this year on the report getting it out and getting the word out but Gordon with graphic and Usa he's a good guy. He really is we we always have the most cordial conversations and he's got the best voice.

Jamie Saunders

Oh I Love gordon.

Justin Ahrens

I Love gordon

Bill Gardner

Ah, but we had ah this conversation and he says you know I kind of just like feed or write whatever you feel comfortable with writing and um I said well that's all good. So. It just so happened. This was the very beginning of logo lounge and I was kind of going I'm kind of seeing some trends here with these logos and I thought this was going to be a None ne-time deal. So I picked out None different trends that I thought were happening and. Called around as a members like I think Bon may have even been helping at that time and I maybe called up felix sockwell and a few others and they all had ideas and kind of we pulled these things together and the next year von or the next year Gordon calls up and said Bill. You think we can do that report again.

Jamie Saunders

Um, you like this.

Bill Gardner

I was going God He is really suffering for something to put in that magazine and ah.

Jamie Saunders

Ah, no, they just know they're so loyal to I mean v to usa they run a great ship him and Ron over there. They're just a amazing and they and they recognize good material that resonates with their audience. So don't ever do that again to yourself. It's good.

Karen Larson

That's awesome.

Bill Gardner

Ah, yeah, they they do. They do.Yep, here's here's here's where here's what it ultimately where where this whole thing got on track was that people didn't understand I have always looked at Trends as being a trajectory as being a transition as being evolution.

And that's my best way of talking about it and it's not trendy because Trendy is something that is ephemeral and it's going to happen very quickly. It's going to. It's a fad and it's going to go away and there are so many people that just don't look at the damn title. It says it's a trend report reporting on Trends not on trendies and.

Karen Larson

Right.

Bill Gardner

They go? Well thank god I didn't make it in there because I'd hate to be thought of as being trendy and over the years now it has gained that level of credibility because people look back and they go oh crap. Yeah, he he said this and now all of a sudden There's all these mono line logos where now all of us. God I can remember the year we started talking about transparent logos and I could only find 3 transparent logos one of which was the Msnbc butterfly. You know it was like there. There was or the Msn butterfly there. There was no, you know other logo that was out there that would help us put that trend. Into the report but over the years we found that man these things either None they really were accurate or 2 everybody looked at it and said I guess that's what people are doing so they started doing it. You know, selfful fulfilled prophecy but twenty years later you know that's 15 per report that's None trends for per that's you know I don't know None different logos treat that I a lot of it. Yeah I love you know yeah.

Jamie Saunders

Design math.

Karen Larson

Wow.

Vonster

I remember back in 2007 bill you you said me that we live in an rgb world now and that was right around that same time with ah the the butterfly logo for yeah.

53:04.43

Bill Gardner

The Msn yep yep, and and it's true.

Jamie Saunders

Um, yeah I mean I I Just think like you're you're I bet those people are kicking themselves now is what I'd like to say the ones that are like oh thank God I wasn't featured. They're like damn it I wasn't good enough to be featured in that you know.

Bill Gardner

Um, you know here's here's one um, here's one of my favorite von was just talking on remembering the Msn logo and the transparencies and moving to ah rgb world from the cm y k world. But here's what happens and and we see this on a daily basis I know you guys do but we don't recognize it and that's that you guys remember Enron ah the oil the oil and energy future company that everybody was investing in that they were doing some funny shit and all of a sudden.

Justin Ahrens

Power Paul Rand Logo Paul Rand logo

Bill Gardner

Everything went to hell on him. Okay Paul Rand Logo for Enron dammit. But when you think about what was going on at the time all of the financial services at that point started listening to a word that was being used across that industry which was transparent.

Karen Larson

This is.

Bill Gardner

We need to be transparent if we're going to invest with people's funds. They need to know what's happening to them. We need to be transparent and it was at exactly that time that illustrator introduced the ability to move 1 item over another and see transparencies.

Karen Larson

Perfect.

Bill Gardner

In real time now up until that time it had been in photos shop and you if you wanted to see what something looked like on top of another thing you would move it over there and then you would go to lunch and you'd come back and see if it was done calculating you know and you go hey I'm I've still got time for a copy I'm gonna you know and that.

Karen Larson

That's awesome. It's so true.

Bill Gardner

But because it's happened in real time designers were infatuated with transparency collision financial industry saying we need to show transparrencies designers going I've got a tool that shows transparency and all of a sudden there was this explosion of logos.

Justin Ahrens

It may.

Bill Gardner

Were transparent and almost all of them originally were for the financial industry because that was their way of being able to put it out in front of people Merrill Lynch cafeteria program. All transparent images. You know you can take this and this and this and they but add them together but you can see where your money went and.

Karen Larson

Right.

Bill Gardner

This is what we pick up in the in in the trend report is not only identifying them but explaining why that trend is going on so twenty years later yeah this report that just came out. You can look at it for free on logolounge dot com um or just look up logo trend report you're going to find it that way. Ah, or you can go on to logo lounge and you can actually pay $100 and become a member of logo lounge and then you can upload as many of your logos as you want and potentially end up inside of one of the logo lounge books which.

Karen Larson

Oops.

Bill Gardner

Have turned into the largest selling series of identity design books ever. So anyway, yeah yeah, it yeah got it all in there. Yeah, go ahead.

Jamie Saunders

Oh incredible congratulations.

Karen Larson 

So did logo lounge start first or which one was first logo lounge or the trend report because I remember you know logo lounge was the books were something. You'd get every single year and you'd have them on your desk and you know and now now I just go and do $100 and

Bill Gardner

Logo Lounge. Um, yeah, yeah, yep, and people still do Yeah yeah.

Karen Larson

You know because anytime it's the most just like I talk about how design being something that has was a game changer for the industry I feel the same about logo lounge If you're a logo designer then you need to be part of.

Bill Gardner

Um, thank you.

Karen Larson

Or use logo lounge as a source of inspiration as a source. It's just.

Bill Gardner

You know I've got to throw some credit on 2 of you right now. Um, you've got to know that Vaughn was one of the very early adopters and bon came to me because I was talking to Felix Sockwell and said.

Bill Gardner

Who's out there that I'm missing who do I need to get involved in Loga lounge and Felix said there's this guy who's drawing baseball cards and football cards and his name is von glitchka and I said can you spell it and he said no.

Vonster

Black.

Jamie Saunders

Ah, at least they could say it.

Justin Ahrens

But the way you're not even saying it right? It's von it's von glichka.

Bill Gardner

And when when rule twenty nine and Justin got on board again early on early adopters in here you know and early into the books and it was a situation where I can remember Robin Ray from Modern dog coming to me and going bill. We actually had a client walk into our office with your logo lounge book going hey I saw your logo in here. Can you design something for me and I had more people I've had a designer bond when we were down at Creative South One of the designers came up to me and.

Jamie Saunders

I love Robin. Yes.

Bill Gardner

His logo had been on the cover of the logo lounge book on his None date with his soon to be wife. He walked her into a barnes and noble and said ah look there's one of my logos on the cover of that book I got marriages that came out of this thing.

Jamie Saunders

But.

Vonster

Um, nice.

Jamie Saunders

Um, ah ah.

Justin Ahrens

It's a solid move Solid move.

Karen Larson

That is if you if you're going to love me, you have to love logo lounge. Ah.

Bill Gardner

Yeah, so logo lounge started up because man it was I have every very logo book in the world seems like and our designers love going through and that's cool, but you could be post at noteum forever trying to find. All the examples of a Fox or all the examples of fish or a theater or whatever or or something that's you know serendipity. But I can go to logo Loudon. Yeah, yeah, and it's perfect for that and.

Karen Larson

Nope, That's what I love about being able to search on the website I Love that? Yeah, it is.

Jamie Saunders

Um, for a turtle.

Bill Gardner

So when it when it started out. The thing was is people didn't get the idea of paying money to be able to search for logos or paying money to they got the idea of a book and they got the idea of a competition and I can remember um I had just juried.

Bill Gardner

Ah, the ca design annual and Patrick Ko and I were sitting down to dinner afterwards and and I threw this idea at him about doing this and he goes you're crazy. No nobody is going to pay you money to stick their logos on the internet to you know to look at them there. Why would they do that when they've got a magazine like ca you know.

Bill Gardner

and and I said Patrick because when you look at CA you're looking at history when you look at logo lounge you can look at a logo that was uploaded today.

Vonster

So.

Bill Gardner

You can see something that a designer designed for a baker in Australia before the baker sells first look for bread and yeah, so there you go. That's how it out started.

Karen Larson

Yeah, well you can see the trend that before you call it now.

Jamie Saunders

She gets it.

Justin Ahrens

I mean I've been I've been searching logo on this whole show. Just you know, checking things out.

Bill Gardner

Yeah, yeah.

Karen Larson

Ah, yep.

Jamie Saunders

Not paying attention so and now. Ah.

Bill Gardner

You know what? it's easy. It's easy. It's easy to get um there. There's three hundred and eighty thousand some logos on there which one are you on right now.

Justin Ahrens

I Really thought that would land a lot better than it did but hey you know we can always cut it or keep it in. Ah.

Jamie Saunders

It sounded a little ADD but.

Justin Ahrens

I Just put in bananas.

Bill Gardner

And how many I've never seen how how many banana logos came up. There's a little counter that tells you.

Justin Ahrens

How many how many results came up for um, well the problem with the problem with my search is I spelled banana wrong, but no, um, there is a there is a None banana logos.

Karen Larson

How many bananas.

Jamie Saunders

And what are the results.

Vonster

But.

Bill Gardner

Shit. Go figure. How else are you going to find a None banana good banana logas.

Jamie Saunders

Wow.

Karen Larson

Um, I'm so right? So do you actually do you weed out on the local lounge or is if it's been posted it stays there. That's wonderful I assumed that but.

Justin Ahrens

Um, brothers.

Bill Gardner

Um, no, yes, yeah yeah, well there have been a few Nudy pictures that people have uploaded that I ended up pulling down. But yeah, you know everything that gets uploaded has somebody's name attached to it so you got to be able to. Yeah.

Karen Larson

Bright. Yeah.

Bill Gardner

Have the cohonas to stand behind anything that you put up there. So um, you know we didn't have to make that fear that no but something that a lot of people don't realize is there. There is the ability to um to sort based off the quality level of the logo in there.

Karen Larson

Um, right.

Bill Gardner

Yeah, so you will see these little targets. There's a large and then a less large than even smaller and then a tiny target and if you hit the tiny target. It's just going to pull up all the logos in whatever you're searching that have been in books if you hit the next size up.

Karen Larson

This is.

Bill Gardner

It's all the logos that judges that judge the Jury The book gave any point value to and if you go to the next one up, it's everything that everything that somebody. Yeah.

Karen Larson

Now.

Justin Ahrens

Well I'm doing this right now. This is awesome I can't believe I didn't know this.

Karen Larson

I didn't know that either now is that only part of the paid offering. Okay, that's what I thought.

Bill Gardner

Oh yeah, yeah I mean it guys you got it. You got to pay for the site because we've got to pay for the site there there. Yeah there you know there there is so much goes on.

Karen Larson

Absolutely absolutely.

Jamie Saunders

Don't cheap out Don don't cheap out.

Vonster

I need to upload our creative shit show logo because I just I just searched for shit and there's only 16 logos and I think we can make it in the book. But.

Jamie Saunders

So that's so

We could win Oh my God The shit show could win.

Bill Gardner

Ah, you invited him on because both Vaughn and Justin have been here have been book jurors and know what pain it is to go through the None of logos that are submitted but you know that did you really tell me about that.

Karen Larson

Ah.

Justin Ahrens

I Actually loved it. No I Really did I loved it it. In fact, it was it I found it really and inspiring. But what's interesting too. Um is I just looked up our firm and all the logos we've entered and looking at the ones that judges looked at.

Vonster

Yeah, those are always fun I like to in the.

Justin Ahrens

And that's nice to know like what they with some judges picked. It's very cool I'm very grateful you created the collection.

Bill Gardner

Yep. Yeah, yeah.

Jamie Saunders

You should tell your client to upload their paper towel there just saying.

Bill Gardner

It works. You know one of the things that people don't realize is how the judging goes down and I don't know how good vaughn or Jessin's memory is in here. But like this last book. There were 35000 logos that had been submitted since the previous book I think imagine any competition any competition that has 35000 injuries there. There are none you know I mean that's yeah I mean and it's it's just one of those things where there's a immense amount in there.

Karen Larson

Wow.

Bill Gardner

So we've expanded the judging field to 10 judges. Um, they are always named brand designers from around the world. We end up taking it so every logo is seen by 3 of the judges exactly 3 of the judges and they can rank them. They come up on this. Page and they're already marked as 0 and they can put a None a 2 or a 3 for them. So the highest score any logo could possibly get during a judging would be a None and typically out of None logos. There would be None or maybe 2 logos that make it to a None

Jamie Saunders

Wow.

Bill Gardner

Because all the judges have to be in agreement that that is just the most exquisite mark in there and then we start working our way down to the eights and the sevens and the six s and the fives and the fours and the threes and the cool thing is that if a judge marks you and says you know I like that logo.

Karen Larson

None

Bill Gardner

It may have been passed over by some of the other judges. There's always so many great marks that don't make it into the book and I feel really badly about that. But I also don't pick the marks that go into the books that judges do and they always do an incredible job. We always have such great content in the books.

Jamie Saunders

Um, well Bill I we have so like we could go on forever I mean this could be like the the how dinner we had you know where we could be together for all night and it's still not good enough of you but you know at some point in time we got to set your magic free. So.

Karen Larson

For what.

Bill Gardner

Um, yep, yep. I get it.

Jamie Saunders

We've we've just loved our time with you if you guys want to know more I think there was an excellent interview just done with Stephen Heller so go check that out. Um, and it was incredible. I am really proud of you bill and and we're happy that you decided to join us is this. You're fun like there's only.

Bill Gardner

Um, oh yeah.

Karen Larson

Congratulations there.

Bill Gardner

Um, that was fun.

Jamie Saunders

You know good things to be said about you. So thanks for coming on the shit show. You're excellent. Can't wait to share this with our audience.

Bill Gardner

Had a blast unit guys sweet.

Karen Larson

Yep, we love you.

Justin Ahrens

Thanks Bill.

Jamie Saunders

Um, thanks Bill. But.

Vonster

You're a Legend bill.

Bill Gardner

Um, listen listen listen with a thunderous crowd applauding.

Justin Ahrens

Don't don't worry but we'll we'll put some voice over of like one of people clapping and it being credible.

Bill Gardner

Oh can you ah just put some pop rock put some pop rocks in your mouth and get really close to microphone.

Jamie Saunders

See you later, Bill! BYE!

It’s a first for the Creative Shit Show! We invited the brilliant and funny Terry Marks, principal of tmarks creative firm in Seattle. We would say one and only, but we found out he’s not!

You may have seen Terry’s work featured in PhotoDisc, Print Magazine, Communication Arts, Critique Magazine, HOW, and more. A dynamic storyteller, branding master, and collaborator, and somehow he manages to remain humble through it all.

Join us for the laughs, stay for the stories, and leave feeling energized. You know what to do…grab a drink and enjoy the Creative Shit Show with our special guest, Terry Marks.

Show Notes

The OTHER Terry Marks CEO of Hooters Corp: https://www.hooters.com/about/news/hooters-names-new-ceo

HOW Design Conference: www.howdesignlive.com

AIGA: www.aiga.org

AIGA 1-Minute Talent Show: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5CyrJKx4zI

Terry Marks Design: tmarksdesign.com

Promo Photo for Russell Investments:

15 minutes (face of stock photography for Photodisk) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PROFePWQ42w

Communication Arts Magazine: commarts.com

Pantone: https://www.pantone.com

Terry’s Mom and Daughter, plus Terry and his wife, Laura:

Von with the kids in Africa:

Justin and Terry with bowl cuts:

3 Feasts: https://www.flickr.com/photos/rule29/albums/72157605528271667/with/2566356360/

3 Feasts Ceviche Recipe:

INGREDIENTS: Fish Fillets, such as flounder, sole, or cod Water Salt Limejuice 1 1⁄4 cup Salt Jalapeño small dice 1 tsp parsley chopped red onion, small dice 1⁄2 cup red pepper, small dice 1⁄2 cup mango or papaya small dice 1⁄2 cup black pepper to taste Lettuce leaves 6 each

Cut the fish into strips 1 1⁄2 inch long by 1⁄4 inch thick. Place in a bowl of lightly salted water with a 1⁄4 cup of lime juice.

Let it sit for 1 hour. Drain well. Combine the remaining ingredients and toss well after an hour. Adjust seasoning to taste with salt pepper lime juice and hot sauce. Serve in lettuce leaf cups with tortillas or rice crackers.

Terry’s Henitentiary™️:

Trip (Connor Trinneer) on Enterprise: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0872997/

Enneagram Type Indicator: https://www.enneagraminstitute.com

SmartLess Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/smartless/id1521578868

Archive Chicago 2010:

Being self-employed is a dream for some, but not everyone. As small business owners, our co-hosts open up about the benefits and pitfalls of working for themselves. It’s long hours and hard work, and you must want it. Before you leap, you must ask yourself one question. Are you thirsty? If so, grab a cocktail and have a listen.

SHOW NOTES:

Jessica Hische Tweet: 

Chris Do, The Futur: linkedin.com/in/thechrisdo

The Futur Pro Group: https://thefutur.com/pro-group 

Creative South Conference: https://www.creativesouth.com 

Donovan Beery, 36Point: https://eleven19.com/people/donovan-beery/ 

Hunch Punch: https://www.barnonedrinks.com/drinks/h/hunch-punch-2628.html 

Jamie’s Blueberry Lemonade Cocktail: 1 shot Deep Eddy’s Lemon Vodka, ½ can Blueberry Waterloo sparkling water, slice of lemon

Justin’s Vodka Cherry Soda: 1 shot Tito’s Vodka, ½ can Bubly Cherry seltzer

Von’s Fosters Oil Can: https://www.fostersbeer.com

Co-Hosts Jamie Saunders, Justin Ahrens, Von Glitschka, and Karen Larson have a rough start to an incredibly vulnerable episode about the impact our emotions (or lack of emotions) have on creativity. Learn to work around your feelings and use them as your superpower in handling clients, bosses, or tough projects. Grab a drink, and have a listen.

SHOW NOTES:

Sam Harrison, “Idea Selling” https://www.amazon.com/IdeaSelling-Successfully-Creative-Decision-2010-05-12/dp/B01K1438P8 

HOW Design Live: https://howdesignlive.com 

Strawberry Candy https://www.mashed.com/237964/the-truth-about-your-grandmas-favorite-strawberry-candy/ 

Chewels Gum http://www.liketotally80s.com/2016/06/candy-80s-happened-chewels/ 

Zotz https://zotzpower.com 

Fruit Stripe Gum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruit_Stripe 

Nerds Rope https://www.nerdscandy.com/nerds-rope/ 

Tootsie Roll https://www.tootsie.com/candy/tootsie-rolls/ 

Reese’s Peanut Butter Cup https://www.hersheyland.com/reeses 

Good N Plenty https://www.hersheyland.com/good-and-plenty

ROUGH TRANSCRIPT:

EPISODE 5: Why are Creatives so Fluffy?

Jamie:

Yeah, okay. Hey guys. We're back for another episode of the creative shit show and curious. How’s everybody doing this afternoon?

Karen: 

Doing great

Vonster: 

Same here doing fine.

Justin:

Oh, man I am doing so good.

Jamie:

Awesome! WOW. This is rough.

Karen:

That sucked.

Justin:

Oh man, you know I What's that what are you talking about that sucked.

Vonster:

Ah, fuck.

Karen:

Ah I can edit that just how slow it was. It was just like oh.

Justin:

Well hey you know I think what's funny about just that beginning is just how different we are you know? um I think that's one of the things that makes it show really interesting and ah I always get made fun of at my house that I'm super emotional.

Vonster:

Yes, my wife and daughters make fun of me when I get very clamped watching a movie.

Justin:

Von, Do You do you think you're super emotional?

Karen:

Do you guys cry?

Jamie:

Um, yeah, Publix gets me every time.

Justin:

Dude I cry at fricking Geico commercials I'm a mess.

Vonster:

Yeah.

Karen:

Oh my God.

Justin:

Well let's what's talk. Let's talk about this from a business standpoint so Karen you've been on your own you know for a long time and Jamie you've you know, kind of taken a couple different paths recently? What's it like for you guys like how does emotions play into your work relationship?

Karen:

You know, so it's it's interesting because I kind of feel like this cold-hearted beep person and sometimes and I just you know. I'm very business or business minded business oriented. It's kind of like the job is work. The job is not It's a job and I don't get too emotional about um about it where. And I think I can speak for Jamie and she'll speak for herself but Jamie she's been on her own for a couple years now and she really takes things to heart a little bit. You know a lot more than I do and you know I kind of have to talk her down a little bit and say it's only work you know. Don't worry about it just make the revisions and we'll move on or whatever the process is but um I do think that creatives as a whole we all have you know. Emotion we deal with emotion differently than I want to say quote unquote normal um, normal employees do and I think that a lot of managers don't know how to deal with creatives because of that.

Justin:

Yeah, but I have I have a question though because I'm going to call I'm going to try to call it BS on that. Do you mean to tell me Karen like when you work something work on something really hard. You dump all of your energy and soul into it again. I'm being a little overly dramatic and and the client doesn't like it. You're able to not take that personally?

Jamie:

No.

Vonster:

Um, but.

Justin:

Yeah, Jamie's calling it.

Karen:

Um I take it and you okay.

Jamie:

Uh, if if you're speaking for me hey maybe we should role play if you're speaking for me I'll speak for you.

Justin:

Um, oh yeah, that's roleplay.

Vonster:

I like that idea.

Karen:

I don't I really don't man Jamie can speak for me because I could be but as a whole I don't think I take it all that personally I do get offended when the client is wrong.

Justin:

Ah, there it is te good part.

Karen:

Ok, there's are there's a difference some clients are just wrong. But I'm not but it's like I get offended and then I'm over it I really don't I think I am anyway I don't let it. You know fester I don't think I don't know Jamie what do you think? do I let it faster.

Jamie:

I Think it just depends on the day and this scenario you know I think we can I mean there are days where I'm handling everything beautifully and you know you could be having your own issues over there and then you know vice Versa I think you know. Part of the beauty of having a partner is you pick each other up when you fall and and I think when I was working alone. Ah I had no one to share my emotional outbursts with that makes any sense you know so I felt like they just kind of went into like an..

Karen:

Um, right.

Jamie:

echo chamber you know and then I would get myself all worked up but now I feel like I'm managing it a lot better because Karen will just be like who cares, you know or whatever just go rewrite it and like I said a couple episodes ago I think when I when I get the feedback even if it offends me and I go back and I look at the work I'm like oh. You know, maybe there's a point there. Maybe they did see something that I didn't see and I fix it and it gets better. You know, but.

Karen:

Right? Yeah I would yeah I would say that I get more irritated about the not the work. But the fact that something wasn't communicated to me to save me time.

Jamie:

Right.

Karen:

I get more offended and irritated about that than I do the process. Yeah than the work itself. 

Vonster:

Yep.

Jamie:

Right? The process that makes sense I mean rather than you know I don't want this to turn into some sort of like oh let's all complain about you know.

Justin:

Yeah, but then you.

Jamie:

The way you know the way things go sometimes with clients because we've done that you know in the past. So to me, it's It's like the conversation is why? why do? why? do you think creatives are so fluffy. Why why you know why? do you think that that happens.

Karen:

Right.Well I think the question is why do creatives feel the need to please.

Jamie:

Right? That's fair.

Vonster:

So just just to clarify. That's what you mean by fluffy emotions. Basically yep yep, okay.

Justin:

Oh well I I.

Jamie:

Um, yep, and the need to have validation that you know.

Justin:

Yeah, well I think I think for me Vaughn I don't know what you think about this but we're in an emotional business and I know Karen you may disagree with me here a little bit but.

Karen:

Oceans but also that need to please.

Justin:

Think about what we do whether you're writing or you know doing any sort of you know, ideation or creative. You know that's coming from somewhere magical inside of us and you know one of the things I I try to share with students and even some of my younger designers that come work for us is.

Karen:

Their heart.

Justin:

You're going to do 3 directions for a client and think about it twothirds of what you're going to present is going to be not approved right? Sometimes all three won't and that I think there is a level of an emotional toll.

Vonster:

Yeah, yeah.

Justin:

You know and depending on where you are in your career or how much time you put into it or how much careing to your point you felt your decision was right I think there is a I think there is a um you know impact on you over time and I don't know that's kind of how I felt about it I don't what do you think

Vonster:

Well I like Karen said sometimes clients are just wrong other times on a project. There will be revisions and I don't necessarily think they're always needed but it's not that. They're doing anything wrong. So those I don't have so much problem with um, it's when like they tend to change the goal post. Um the the information they provided up front sent me in one direction and then all of a sudden they're kind of contradicting themselves. Ah, with new input they have and I'm going. Well why wasn't this in the brief that I had you fill out that type of thing and and then that's when things tend to go off the rails. 

So um I yeah I think your point about most of the work we create as designers um either is not going to be used or nobody is ever going to seen I always thought a great book would be ah designs never used or whatever and just showcased artwork that just was just happened not to align with what a client wanted to do.

Justin:

Um, by the way that title has just been copyrighted by the creative shit show. Please Continue Von.

Vonster:

But um, well when when I spoke down ah at ah the Adobe workshop last week um somebody asked me a question about. Ah. You know how many design directions I usually show on a logo project and I made the comment like you did that you know over the years I've created more design than ever got used and sometimes I like the ones that didn't get used more in the ones they chose.

And I've chosen to show that on my site instead of what they actually went with because I think it reflected better on the potential. What I can do not the limited vision of a client might choose and it's like I tend to call it. Um. Ah, creative renewable energy where you go back into your archives and you can grab ideas and I do this for ah for um, name exploration I save name explorations I've done in the past and I. If a client comes up and it might fit with them I'll go back and I'll kind of harvest from that. So I do that all the time. Um in different projects. So I think that's that's actually it's a good creative habit is what I call it.

Karen:

Um, I actually think that it's a lot harder on the writer side than it is on the creative side because from my experience clients seem to think that they can write. So has Jamie's laughing and they seem to think that they can you know they love the ideas that were given to them. But what about this tweak and I think that there's a lot more thought process and strategy. That goes into the writing or the overall concept development and I know I've said this before but I think that you know once you if you have that down to design. Can follow. But and that's what's so wonderful in working in a partnership with a writer but you know I think it's a lot easier for for clients to tear down writing. But for writers you know it's It's tough because those words sometimes are very few words and 1 little change can really screw it all up and I've I've seen it happen time and time and time and time again where with design most ah, most.

Vonster:

Yeah.

Karen:

Most clients can't do the design and they while they you know they might make I hate to say it but really stupid comments about design or ignorant comments about design. You can some hopefully you can walk them through it and that's what's so important for you know designers to build their communication skills if you have really great communication Skills. You can walk through it and explain to a client why you've done something. Like I Just recently have I am working on a website and this client's looking at he's like why are there so many different colors and font sizes and blah blah. But and I'm like you know want to blow my head off so and then I explained to and he's a very corporate type of a client. An older man and I explained to him. It's a visual hierarchy and blah blah blah Blah blah. But as soon as I explained it to him he he didn't have an issue with it anymore. So you know.

Justin:

Yeah, But what about what? What about the emotional side of that though you know, kind of getting back to that You know so let's say don't you feel that part of creatives. Um sort of maturing in their profession is to also figure out a way to have you know. In emotional you know for lack of better terms. Um, you know wall or ability to you know, sort of reflow their emotions so they don't let that get the better of themselves because I know when I started out with the young I'll be honest I when I get feedback I would say stuff like gosh. The client is. You know, absolute Idiot like do they not know what good design is um, right.

Karen: Yeah, but they don’t write and they don't and they don't know what good design is so I think right in most cases they don't know what good design is I truly believe that. So.

Jamie:

Well  they see things differently than you do. So you see things differently.

Karen:

I think that they have an opinion but they don't understand the big picture of a lot of times unless maybe a marketing person and stuff like that. But I think if you um I think you can manage your emotions from a situation by being able to control the situation by being able to defend in a effective way and and believe me I know that that is super. You know. For example, Justin I'm thinking of you know your your employees or. Employees of any kind junior designers that don't have a voice then? What do you do? ah.

Justin:

Yeah I think I think for for me over the years Karen I think you said something that really resonates with me I think over the years I've realized that part of my role as a creative is to educate my client on why we did what we did and how it solves the challenge that has been. Um, put in front of us and I will tell you that the vast majority of time I do not get emotional about that anymore. I can actually be presenting and see one of my creatives on the call and see their their sort of hearts slowly melting because they're so sad about what they're being said and I'm making a note to myself saying. Okay I need to make sure I'm follow up. You know with Xyz person I think the only time I really lose it and this doesn't happen a lot because I think we do a pretty good job picking the right clients but I would say once a year you'll have a client and I'm trying to go into this meeting with a good attitude you know or.

Karen:

Yeah, that makes all that makes a difference.

Justin:

This conversation that is just super rude, right? and or doesn't doesn't know how to give feedback and you know right away I'm sitting here defending my my team or we're not even talking about the solution and I can tell that I'm getting upset and I'm trying to calm myself down because it's business. But also it's. I believe that you know we should conduct business respectfully and so for me from an emotional kind of to use Jamie's term you know the fluffy side of things I think that's where I still will get flustered and it takes a lot to get me there but that is the. Point where I'm just like listen you're going to disrespect us because for whatever reason you're talking to us that way. How is that at all positive or getting us to a solution. You're just kind of being a jerk right? So those are my biggest areas of of emotional.

Vonster:

Yeah, um, what Karen said about ah responding to you know? Obviously it sound like a corporate suit type client and he was probably looking at the interface or the design aesthetic and like some clients. They just think oh they're just being artsy and they don't put any distinc rtationale for why you did something? Well what you did is you explained your rationale and why you made the decisions you made and as soon as they hear that I think it it makes them realize that that you're paying attention to. Not just doing something that looks pretty. You have a reason for why you're doing it and I think that's a big part of it. Um, what Justin said about going into a meeting. Um I had a client earlier this year who was that way they couldn't really define what they wanted.

And I was just shooting in the dark on a bunch of different directions and um and then he decided to basically it was nothing to help figure out. Okay, what will work or where should we go. It was more just to kind of ah take a shot at like. My creative work in in reference it as you know? Well this looks like clip art type stuff which kind of piss me off and um, yeah, it's a it's at that point that if a client's going to be willing to do that. Then. Ah, probably don't really want to work with them Anymore. So.

Karen:

Right.

Jamie:

But for workable clients you know I feel like I'm trying to get more introspective and and trying to like to your point Von you know manage the situation so that it turns out.

A little better than it might have in the past. Um you know getting feedback like I don't like this you know isn't very helpful. It's not going to help me what do you? So I'm learning now when I send something over I never send it without rationale here's where I was coming from here's why I did this.

Vonster:

Yeah, yeah.

Jamie:

I'll reference something that they said from a conversation hey I heard you when you said such and such and so I tried to incorporate that here. Um getting better also about not turning in finished drafts of things. So if I'm writing something and I start feeling insecure about it and it's not it.

Vonster:

That's smart.

Jamie:

If I'm having trouble formulating the thought it's probably because I didn't ask enough questions or there wasn't enough conversation. So I'll actually just send over what I have sometimes and I'll be like here's what I'm thinking is this what you were talking about you know and then that gives them before I waste all this time because it can take me you know. 5 hours to write you know a thousand word. You know, essay or blog post or something you know I just want to get ahead of it. So I'm trying to get ahead of it and Karen said something a couple of episodes ago about just not coming with a finished solution I think that's so. Important and I didn't realize how important it was until after she said it and I was like oh that is what I'm doing and the feedback is getting better right? because then it gives the client the chance to refute oh I didn't mean that when I said that here's the answer to your question and then we have a better dialogue. The work is better. They're happier.

Clients like collaborating so they enjoy giving feedback and input and when you come to them with a finished solution and I sat in that chair you guys know and they would bring me something and it's so off base and you're just like I don't know how to discuss this I don't know what to say and it's and it's like well here it is and you're like what is it because.

Karen

Right? Well and when client and when you're collaborating. There is a lot less chance that you are going to come to them with something that they're not going to be happy with right.

Vonster:

Woah what.

Jamie:

Exactly exactly and I used to think I had to bring them I would think oh I had to bring them something finished and now I realize that's not the way It's just so much better.

Vonster:

Um I like your the fact that you kind of affirm back to the client that something that they had mentioned or commented on was the genesis for why you moved in a certain direction I think is.

Justin:

Um, yeah.

Vonster:

That's really good I remember years ago Creative Director I work with told me that even if if he really wanted them to to buy into an idea and kind of buy the vision of where he had He would give all attribution to the client whether or not they they really did it or not. And I go well is that kind of manipulating he goes. Well yeah, but it works you know and he he yeah I was amazed at how many times he goes you know in a previous conversations. We had you said this. And they might have said that but they meant nothing about how he interpreted but they didn't want to correct him and say well you know if if you think it works good and you're giving me credit for it then they're more susceptible to to considering it.

Jamie:

So now I don't make up stuff but I do ah take copious notes Karen knows during meetings I write down very weird and specific things that people say during meetings because they trigger ideas.

Vonster:

Yeah, yeah, well I know.

Jamie:

Um, and we've gotten to the point where we record a lot of client calls because um, not because I want to throw it back in their face but because I want to go back and listen to it and and make sure that I understood the conversation because in real time you're listening. But then when you go back and you listen to it again. You're paying attention.

Karen: Right? And a lot of what we do is really technical but 1 of the things that I would like to talk about is you know because we all have direct communication with clients so we can avoid because of that.

Vonster:

Yeah, exactly yeah.

Jamie:

So yeah.

Karen:

We can control and avoid or manage is a better probably word our emotions based on how we can control the clients with conversation. But how do younger. Designers that don't have and creatives writers Sorry how can younger creator creatives communicate. Okay I'm going to back up. Edit it How can younger creatives. Manage this situation you know because they're just sitting at their desks being told what to do and getting crushed because somebody delivering the project to a client didn't defend it in a certain way or it wasn't you know how does that? How do we. Help younger creatives through that and.

Vonster:

I think the thing that helped me the most when I was younger um, was just thinking. Okay I can try to align with what I think might be the expectations of like my art director. Whatever my boss or I could just take the information they gave me and and create something I think would work and I also like. And I'd rather do that instead now if they come back and they want to change this or that you know I can't control that but I can control what I show them So I'm always even though a client has certain. You know I try to figure out in a general sense where they want to go what they want to do who their target audience is all all the standard stuff. But then um, if I think there's a slightly better way of communicating that and it might go a little out of field from what they so. They stated upfront I'll still at least show them a direction that that goes that way.

Karen:

But did you educate your um account person about how to present it or why you did what you did so that they could defend it.

Vonster:

Well my boss at a previous job I had here in Oregon he was the one that always presented it. We never really played a part in that but he is pretty good at at at doing that. Although at times I um he he wouldn't. Like I don't know pitch it the way I would have you know but nowadays like I'm I'm rebranding a ah radio network now and I have to talk to their board of directors for the last 2 conversations we've had and um, they've been really.

I mean as far as boards and committees go they've been really easy to work with but it's interesting because you know they they couldn't put their finger on why they didn't like this one design for one of the stations and um, but in the mix of just talking about I Go Well just explain to me like. Like what you're thinking like what? what? What do you think would work even if you have no idea visually just encapsulate it in words.

Karen:

But a lot of times the designers and we're going back to the younger designers or creative writers. They don't get that direct feedback from clients I mean Justin what do you think?

Vonster:

Yeah, that's that's the hard part.

Justin:

Well, and yeah, well I think I think it's really important then there's a great question I think it's important to maybe state some things that I think are true and you guys can share with me if you believe it or not you know going back to what we were talking about earlier. I Think it's really hard in my opinion to separate our creativity from emotions I feel like our emotions fuel our our creativity or dampen it right? They have an impact on it. So if that's true then I think it's really important also for designers to realize that.

Jamie:

Absolutely.

Justin:

I mean think about when even now today I still get super excited but think about like your first great piece you wrote or you designed is you know and maybe it was terrible right? because it your it was your first or your early work and so you're putting your you know your energy into it and your passion into it and then what happens right? You get feedback that it's not awesome. And it's it's crushing and so I think what's happening simultaneously. It's really unique in this industry is that you are needing to navigate your emotions on how to take this input and trying to try not to judge yourself on it because it's hard not to do right? because you're judged on your output. So if you're constantly not getting stuff approved I remember there is a streak here. 

1 of our creatives. He was. He was so good I think it's when we did I think's the logo was a book covers I can't remember but there was a streak where I think there was like 8 or 9 projects in a row. He was one of the 2 designers on it and his direction wasn't picked and. We kind of joked about it not because we thought it was funny but to try to lighten the mood and he finally came to me and said hey am I any good and this guy was one of our best creatives he just he just had a bad run in this particular type of work and what I loved about his work is.

Karen:

Yeah, that's tough.

Jamie:

It is.

Vonster:

Yeah.

Justin:

He was often the 1 pushing the look right? So you know when we do presentations we usually will do something that's probably in the space. The client is expecting hopefully pushing them beyond that and then it kind of goes out from there and oftentimes we hope for the middle one or the one that's.

Jamie:

Smart.

Justin:

Think he's even most creative to be chosen, but sometimes it's not and he ended to typically was on the outside of it and I was like listen just give it time your work is Phenomenal. We're going to get there and so I spent more time talking to him So if creatives don't have an art director or a mentor. Work to help them navigate that that would be really hard emotionally because in my opinion, What's happening is you're constantly getting what you feel and again this depends on how you're built. You know some people will look at that and say Wow This is really constructive Criticism Great I'll take this and I'll continue to evolve and I'll get better and that I think is the right approach as much as you can.

Vonster:

Into that cliff.

Justin:

Where others are just like Wow Why is everything I do not good. What does it say about me I don't think that's a conscious connection. They put together. But I think it's there and I still have it Sometimes you know when we'll do something and I'm just like gosh man that was really good. How did that not get chosen.

Now I'm at the age now where I realize it's not that's not validating me right as a person but it's taken years to get there. So I think for younger creatives I think it's really important to as much as possible to go into it and realize that von what you said earlier. Is kind of a depressing statement but it's true and and it's just part of the world is. We're going to create more things that are going to get denied or not used than those things that actually get used.

Vonster:

Yeah, yeah.

Karen:

Well, that's why it's so important to have those personal projects. Honestly.

Jamie:

So I have a little bit of a different comment about the situation just based on having been in the corporate office and you were asking. You know as a I don't know lower level employee is the right way to say it. But you know you're not maybe in that management position yet.

Vonster:

Both.

Jamie:

And so you're being you know told what to do or how to do things I think first of all everybody needs to go pick up. Ah Sam Harrison's book. It's called idea selling and um Sam is a very good friend of mine. He's amazing and I had the pleasure of sitting down with him and having coffee.

Vonster:

Good book.

Jamie:

Long time ago at the Howe conference and we were discussing just a situation I was having at work. Nothing Big. You know, but it was definitely I wanted more I wanted to get promoted I wanted to move forward and he said have you ever tried managing your bosses that I was like what. You know he said you have a lot of power actually sitting in your position to be able to manage your bosses the same way you might manage a client and they don't even know you're doing it right? So It's so Cool. It's stuck with me.

Jamie:

I use it all the time when I am doing my mentoring with scat and talking to my son you know here in real life. But oh gosh I Know you're going to ask the hard question. Um, well the same thing right? So if you're going to be turning in work.

Vonster:

Give us an example.

Jamie:

If you’re working on a presentation or you're putting something together that you know you're not going to be presenting for yourself. So you're giving it to your your manager comes to you and says okay I need you to fill out slide 3 7 and nine of this presentation and then we're going to take it and we're going to go do a customer presentation with it and so you. First of all, you got to read everybody else's notes and what everybody else has said and then you got to go in and do you know the work and write the slides and then you want to you want to go and edit everybody else's work because now your work doesn't match or you might feel. It's superior to some of the things that you find in that presentation. So you you know? but I think. When you turn in the presentation or you turn in the piece of work. Whatever it is design or writing or whatever put the justification behind it. You know I noticed everybody else was doing this and so I followed suit. However I feel like we could change direction here's an idea. You know here's something I thought of while I was reading through it or you know this this client really is focused on Xyz and we don't even mention that and the presentation is that on purpose you know and you're showing your value. In a really super subtle way you know and they're like wow she notices something every time and now it can be a negative because then you end up being the presentation editor or the you know the person who everybody goes oh Jamie will do it or you know just send it over to her. What do they say give it to the busiest person you know.

Vonster:

Ah. Yeah I can can I kind shared just 1 thing really quick. Um and pardon me I'm gonna use a baseball metaphor. But I think it applies really well is that every every creative person who creates design or maybe it's even illustration. Um, they have a design batting average meaning not everything they're going to work on. It might just be It might get the project done mount the door but they'll never show it to anybody. Um, or they might fail they they they can't ah you know their ideas aren't accepted like Justin was talking about. But yeah, you think of some of the players in baseball like ah. Like Mike Trout one of the best players in baseball but yet he has batting ah slumps where he's not batting very well and in baseball you only have to get 3 out of 10 at bat a hit 3 times out of 10 at bats to be considered an all-star. But in design. It's like you're kind of expected to play at that high level one ah hundred percent the time but that's not the reality. Yeah.

Jamie:

Execute execute execute. You know it does wear on you? yeah.

Karen:

That's great. Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah I think that's good. Yeah, one of the things I want to throw out to you. This is one of those challenges I've had over the years as a manager is when I encourage my team to be like hey sell me on this idea. You know we'll do sketches or whatever else and I'll say and I'll look at hey I like this one this one this one and I and then I I always ask what are the ones that you like and you know a lot of times they were similar but sometimes though they'll have a certain direction I was like okay. Don't see that working but sell me on it like tell me what you see help me see that and I love that process because I get to learn how they think and and a lot of times they talk me into it because it's a great idea and I'm just not seeing it but have you been in a situation where you've. You've fought hard for an idea and because you really believe in it and you know it just didn't happen and you're walking away like how do you process that I'm thinking you think about your younger self or even now I mean I think we all handle a little differently now because we've been around the block a few times but. You know what happens when you stand up for an a you. You really believe in and it still gets you know denied.

Jamie:

I Think when there's consensus that your idea doesn't catch on you know for me I just back away I mean it's just to me. It's like I used to get hot about it and fight for every you know. Idea Oh This would be the next hottest thing this is going to be what everybody's doing next you know and everybody's like I don't buy it. You know, but I think the more the more you begin to I don't want to say like stop having ideas because that's not what I'm trying to say but the more you begin to read the room. And see what other people are thinking and and know to pick your battles I think is probably the best way to say it I don't every idea isn't worth fighting for and a lot of times when you walk away from that meeting and you realize that maybe it wasn't all that you know when you see the finished product of what everybody else came up with together. I Don't know I think I've just learned to walk away peacefully and be okay with it. You know? yeah where you just don't feel like you have to keep like you know everyone in here so stupid but me you know I mean when I was young. That's thought you have you know why can't they see it. Why don't they get it. You know.

Vonster:

That's true.

Karen:

Rather than kicking and screaming.

Vonster:

Well I think when you're you're younger you like Savannah when she started working with me. She wasn't used dart direction. She just Drew whatever she wanted and and now it's like.

Vonster:

You know all art director at times I'll go no that just doesn't look right? she goes why it looks fine I Go no, it could look better and and I'll try to explain it to her and because she works on her ipad this other thing like. I'm trying to slap a piece of vellum on top for Ipad and draw on the vellum because I'm used to make an edits like in analog and then she gets irritated and I go yes. So now she makes a layer for me in her app. Yeah.

Jamie:

With an eraser right.

Karen:

That I I was just going to say that's what you need to do.

Vonster:

And that's what and I drawn red on top of it and show her but she she gets it now she she's she doesn't fight as much as she did early on and now she gives it right back. She'll art direct me on stuff and go now you don't want to do it that way and I go what What's wrong with that. You know and I'm doing the same thing she was doing and that that was yeah that I wasn't you know I had been working on my own for 15 years when she came on and I wasn't used to you know, having something somebody on this side art direct me other in myself.

Jamie:

You got a whole family dynamic too. Wow That's like you know, father daughter thing.

Vonster:

You know? so but she tends to be right? So I listen to it.

Justin:

Do you want us to keep that part in the show I mean now she's gonna hear that.

Vonster:

Sure why not? That's that's the reality. Yeah.

Jamie:

It's recorded so it's there forever.

Karen:

So I off the top of my head and I almost want to ask Justin what the question was again, but off the top of my head I can't. I can't think of a time when there was when I walked away or when I you know when something happened because of the work per se was usually a much bigger. Um, you know, just not I mean sometimes you just don't work well with people and it just doesn't click. Um, but I guess rather than so I can't really answer the question.

Vonster:

Yep.

Karen:

But I can say that I think you learn by your mistake I know you learn by your mistakes. Everything is a learning experience. So I'd much rather if I care about the person. That I'm working with I'd much rather go back to them and say hey what was it that wasn't working you know what? Why didn't this work or you know if I felt like it was a valuable enough conversation. But. In the long run I guess as we're closing out this conversation. It's really about finding mentors in your business. Um I have I've learned from even though I've been self-employed and on my own forever and I haven't had. Bosses quote unquote as mentors I've had older professionals as mentors I've had conference speakers that I have met and had relationships with for years and. You know, kind of learned and felt so it's just a constant learning of what you can bring to the table as a designer and and I know I've said this before but you know the design is just part of it and. It's the it's the all the strategy and thought process and understanding the client that is going to help you avoid those emotions I mean I guess for me, it's about avoiding those emotions so I do everything I can. To you know, avoid them because believe me in the past I had a couple clients and now as we're talking about it I guess I've blacked them out but I remember being called by this, you know, even as a so as a self-employed person being called and at Nine o'clock at night Karen but. And I'd get off the phone I'd be like oh my god blue and it's like and then I still worked with this woman for 10 years a long time ago man and I get I have walked it. Ah I have learned.

Justin:

Wait Did you just admit, did you need to admit to you having emotions. That's awesome.

Jamie:

Um I was about to say it.

Vonster:

Ah.

Karen:

Number one I have learned from my lessons and number two I have blocked them out and I know who to work with and who not to work with.

Jamie:

Yeah, but but Karen would like to have you believe that she's like cold or like she's get you know, but she has an ooey gooey center and I feel like it's my job to bring that out of her I care I get  like really happy when she's super happy and I get sad when she's sad but I I I don't know maybe I make Karen like feel things you know and there days when she's like don't text don't text me

Karen:

Um, that's a slippery slope. What is that? what is that vonster a new get something new. Get Andy I like it but with a 1 but with a rum.

Vonster:

Ah, her new nickname is new nuget. Yeah, that's your new nickname nuget.

Justin:

Um, new get you know I think guarantee. Ah.

Jamie:

She does She is.

Karen:

Ah, Rum Center Rum Nuget Center roo.

Vonster:

There you go. So yeah.

Jamie: 

She's like those strawberry candies that your grandma had you know that are like crunchy on the outside and they have some some kind of jelly something on the inside. That's everybody knows the candy I'm talking about too.

Karen:

Yeah, oh yeah, and it would like burst in your mouth. Um.

Justin:

I was thinking about the gum remember the Jewels the gum that you it was yeah yeah in a yeah, wonderful if we mean gross isn't wonderful. Then? yeah.

Jamie:

Oh bursting your? ah so gross.

Vonster:

Oh I forgot about those that tasted that always tasted like toothpaste on the inside. Yeah oh Zots were good I like those.

Jamie:

It. It's so gross and then  lasts like 5 seconds and you're like gross, you know it's enough. Oh.

Karen:

What about Zots are not ZOTs were good. They like exploded in your mouth right? I.

Justin:

Um, let's go. Let's go. Yeah.

Vonster:

Yeah, fruit striped gum was good for about 30 seconds and then the flavor went away. But.

Jamie:

Yes, so like it's.

Karen:

Okay, Justin what is what is your thought in closing.

Jamie:

What kind of candy are you Ah, it's another episode.

Justin:

Ah I'm no comment. Um, yeah I Think what this episode reminds me of is that what we do is in my opinion What we do is highly emotional and I think that there's ah, there's a. You know a good side to that and a challenging side to that the good side to that is that if you're able to realize that you're in a you're in a creative business right? and that creative and business is both separate and together and what I mean by that is you're gonna be doing creative solutions for business. You're going to put a lot of emotion and time and effort and passion into it. But you also have to understand that it's a business and that some of those things are not going to be liked or accepted or you know taken seriously or whatever you know the results are and that's okay. Does not define you. But what you the sooner you can learn how to navigate that and you know put the right information in the right spaces so you can continue to have that solution then I think you know you are well on your way to be able to have a ah healthy creative career and by the way I'm not advocating to let.

Jamie:

No.

Justin:

Assholes run all over you I'm not saying that I'm saying that in in a normal situation. Um, you know to von I've had you know tons of conversations with van where he showed me things that I think are amazing and the client didn't accept it and you know that still flummoxes me but this is part of our business.

Vonster:

Yep.

Justin:

And so the sooner we can understand that I think the better will be.

Karen:

Well, it's business.

Jamie:

I love this conversation.

Vonster:

It makes for great horror stories later on though. So I always look forward to that at least but that's actually a good title.

Jamie:

Concepts from the crypt. That's the name of your book like you I've been thinking about it for 45 minutes

Karen:

Yes I love that Jamie.

Justin:

Hold on. Let me say that again that title is copyrighted by the creative shit show I'll be the I'll be the I'll be the legal department for our show.

Jamie:

Concepts from the Crypt ™. I'll write your intro copy.

Karen:

I Love it. Okay, we're good.

Justin:

All right von any perfect thoughts there.

Vonster:

Oh no, that was my closing thought that's it Chow bella.

Justin:

Okay.

Jamie:

I'm out.

Justin:

Well hey this has been great team to talk about how we're all a little fluffy even Karen and.

Karen:

I'm more of a that I decided that is my that's my spirit candy and I'm good with that. Oh okay, what are you Jamie? 

Vonster:

Ah, your spirit candy.

Justin:

Okay, I'm a nerds I'm a nerd's rope I'm a nerds rope.

Jamie:

I'm a Tootsie roll

Karen:

I KNEW IT! Um, that's what I would have said um, okay von ah I love it. Ah.

Jamie:

Ah, totally.

Vonster:

Good and plenty.

Justin:

Von you have to you have to be a Reese's peanut butter kale what need that's so good.

Jamie:

Ah, you are good-n-plenty. Definitely. But in the comments. Ah what candy you are listeners. We want to hear what kind of candy you are.

Karen: 

That's a golden shit show moment. So thanks, everyone.

Justin:

There you go.

Jamie:

Thanks guys.

Vonster:

Bye.

Our first ever LIVE podcast was recorded in front of an audience at 2022 How Design Live in Boston, with Von joining us via Zoom from Oregon. Our co-hosts took Q&A from the crowd about scaling or partnering, staying open in your career path, in-house or outhouse, and the incredible value of networking. It’s never dull, so take a listen!

SHOW NOTES:

Steve Gordon: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rdqlus/

Keith Smith: https://www.linkedin.com/in/keithsmith2012/

Bill Gardner: https://www.linkedin.com/in/billgardner3/ and https://www.logolounge.com/

Sean Adams: https://adamsmorioka.com/about/about-seanadams/

Paula Scher: https://www.pentagram.com/about/paula-scher

Terri Trespicio: https://territrespicio.com/

Neenah Paper: https://www.neenahpaper.com/

Linkedin Learning: Karen Larson/Learning Procreate: https://www.linkedin.com/learning/instructors/karen-larson

Linkedin Learning: Von Glitchka: https://www.linkedin.com/learning/instructors/von-glitschka

Linkedin Learning: Justin Ahrens: https://www.linkedin.com/learning/instructors/justin-ahrens

Chris Do: https://www.linkedin.com/in/thechrisdo/

Stefan Mumaw: http://www.stefanmumaw.com/newbio

ROUGH TRANSCRIPT TO COME!

Co-Hosts Justin Ahrens, Karen Larson, Von Glitschka, and Jamie Saunders share ways to break through creative blocks and get your creative juices flowing. Some might surprise you, but all should get you thinking and moving forward. Grab a drink, and have a listen. 

SHOW NOTES (IN ORDER): 

“The Artist’s Way” by Julia Cameron

Karen Larson Art - INSTAGRAM - @karen.larson.art

Von’s koi pond

Keep on Trucking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keep_On_Truckin%27_(comics) 

Keep on Trucking’ Artist, Robert Crumb Documentary: https://www.criterion.com/films/2104-crumb 

Jamie’s Favorite Harry Potter Book: https://www.amazon.com/Harry-Potter-Order-Phoenix-Book/dp/043935806X

Audible Link https://www.audible.com

HOW Magzine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HOW_(magazine) 

PRINT Magazine www.printmag.com 

Dribble https://dribbble.com 

Pinterest www.pinterest.com 

Art Director’s Annual https://www.oneclub.org/adc/100th/

“Reading is equivalent to thinking with someone else's head instead of with one's own.” – Arthur Schopenhauer

Von’s Interpretation: “You get to experience what life is from their perspective. It’s theoretical knowledge of course but still a good way to learn new things.” 

“The Pioneers” by David McCullough - www.amazon.com

Robert Mirek Fine Artist (and Karen’s husband) - robertmirek.com

Justin’s trip to Yosemite:

ROUGH TRANSLATION

Justin: Okay, well, I think what we can do is we can go ahead and start the show and then slowly watch Von put together this microphone and make fun of him on occasion. 

Jamie: I'm down with that.

Justin: You all. It's been great these first few episodes, and I'm excited to continue to explore different ideas but 1 of the things I wanted to throw out there today that I think would be really interesting. Um, and this is one of the things that I was talking to some of my younger designers and some students about, and that is, you know, in the different work you do. 

Do you guys still get creative block like when you're working on something, and you just are not sure like what to do, or you kind of go into this routine because I have a routine um that I go into to kind of unlock when I'm stuck I know. Karen, do you have that problem? I mean, you are the, what's the correct term? Our elder stateswoman of the 4 of us.

Jamie: Wow, that was bold! That was bold.

Justin: So I'm sorry if you can see her face right now. She is telling me that I'm number one, and this is what I appreciate about her, and um, well, I mean that with respect, I'm just saying that you know you've probably been able to conquer this problem.

Vonster: Ah.

Jamie: You went for it.

Karen: Ah.

Karen: I find that the more I work, the less of the block I have. First of all, the creative juices are going crazy when I'm really busy, but um, just getting out. And getting some fresh air and going for a walk really helps that block. Years ago, I listened to or read the book the artists' way.

Justin: Um, awesome.

Karen: She gave you all sorts of different ideas in it. Julia Cameron gave you all sorts of different ideas in it about giving yourself an artist date doing creative morning pages. And people have been doing this for years and I find that if I even I start just going and making art or making marks on a sheet of paper that block kind of dissipates. So that's what I do.

Justin: Well let me ask 1 thing. One of the things I really really really admire about you is your fine art side. I just that's I find that so inspiring. Do you feel that there's an advantage that you you are in that space a lot as well outside of you know your work?

Karen: Thank you.

Vonster: It's great.

Justin: Design Strategy brain.

Karen: Oh there's no question I think that you know the best part about doing the fine art whether it's good or bad. First of all, it doesn't matter. You're just making art and you're not making it for anybody.

Justin: Um, yeah.

Karen: You're not making it for a client. You're just making it for yourself in the moment and I think that it gives your mind a chance to quiet and it's my form of meditation. You know people meditate. I can't just sit there and meditate quietly. But if I'm in flow working on a piece of art or even drawing on my iPad it is is a sense of flow for me and it relaxes me and then I can move on to other tasks. So absolutely.

Justin: I love that. Von, what about you, you're kind of in that space. You know, scribbler drawer extraordinaire.

Vonster: But yeah, um, one of the things Karen said. I mean since last August since I've been doing a lot of walking. Um I found that you know it frees my mind to just free-range thinking. Which I don't get a chance to do I used to do that when I commuted to work years ago but I kind of forgot how much I miss that because I can not just think through work stuff but just life in general think about stuff. So um. 

That tends to help kind of pull my mind out of you know the rut I'm stuck in. To focus on something else that doesn't even have to be related to to work. Um, it's as simple I work out of my home studios. So. At times I'll just walk into our backyard. We have a pond back there. Right now we have a cherry blossom tree that's just dumping a ton of petals in the pond. So I go back there. Sure.

Justin: Hold on. Yeah I have a very important question. Do you have a fish in your pond?Yeah, oh Wow we're gonna have to talk about that. Did you design your pond?

Vonster: Do I have fish? I have a lot of coy fish. Yeah, yep, kind of, but it's like I didn't know what I was doing at the time I'd do it differently now. Yeah.

Justin: Okay, and I've always wondered this, do you have names for your koi fish? 

Vonster: Yes, Savannah named them, not m,e but you know yeah. Camo, Darth there's ah ah, regals another one I forget what there's 1 more the one the big like we have some that are like. I don't know four feet long by about that fat like really big ones they're they're pretty cool. Um, so I'll focus on anything that's not creatively like anything job-related I try to focus on something different.

Karen: Wow.

Justin: You do not! That's, you could like ride that thing like a sea dragon.

Vonster: I might do a coffee run but sometimes the easiest way is just to and this is kind of a reason why I have side projects that I do for no other reason than just something I want to do I've noticed I noticed trends at times and the trend I've noticed for the past year or so. And I don't even know if there's a proper term for it, but they're the kind of designs I don't know if you remember back in the 70 s the keep on trucking type of artwork. You know there's a lot of motifs that people different artists are doing where it's like a character and he's like walking or

holding a flag or whatever and they have some saying with it I don't even know if there's a name for the trend that um I decided to start I wanted to create one of those myself, so I'm working on that on the side. 

So if I get stuck on something like in a client project where. Just feel like I'm hitting a dead end and I just can't figure it out or I'm burned out then I'll refocus on something that I want to do just because I want to do it and then usually if I come back later. Um. That'll give me fresh eyes to see it in a different way and hopefully help me break out of that.

Justin: I Love that hey just throwing this out there for the group and really for Von. How would you feel about doing a keep on trucking Koifish Icon for our show? You know, just throwing that out there.

Vonster: That'd be hard to draw legs for a fish.

Jamie: Oh my God, I can picture it. I can picture it.

Justin: Okay, I mean if if if you I mean if you if you just want to go ahead and limit yourself that's fine phone. Um.

Jamie: You can add it to your portfolio.

Vonster: This is where a client would ask for a ridiculous request and I would just kind of smile and say sure we can think about that. But.

Justin: I mean this could be the thing.

Jamie: That's what I'm saying last but I think in if in a former episode. You mentioned you didn't have a turtle on cue and now you can have a koi fish just in case, you don't know it's going to catch on.

Justin: Keep on trucking Koi fish I mean, don't get mad at me when you sell when you send sell millions of copies of that I'm just saying.

Vonster: Um, that's right. That's actually on and on my list of personal projects is to do a Koi fish illustration but I haven't gotten around to it yet.

Justin: So Jamie, what about you? Do you ever get in that space and how do you get yourself out of it.

Jamie: It's amazing. So we're 3 for 3 on walking. So I'll just skim past that and move on to the idea that you know I am a little different because I do a lot more writing you know than designing I don't do any designing Karen freaks out when I even mention it. But um. I do a lot of writing so when I get stuck writing I go read.  

Um, and I find that ah it's very soothing to me. It's very relaxing. It's very distracting and I notice this I don't know as I get older. Maybe I'm just more aware of it when I was a kid I probably didn't realize that it was teaching me new vocabulary as I was reading. So I'll come back from you know reading... I mean I'll read anything too. It doesn't have to be. You know it can be teenage romance novels it can be you know Harry Potter whatever it is I don't really care. But um i'll. Add new words to my vocabulary it it strengthens my creativity. It gives me just a way more fun way of looking at things than than I went into it. So yeah, when I get stuck writing, I go read.

Vonster: I agree I agree ah reading is another thing I'll do just to completely focus in a different way. It's like what if reading for me is like watching ah a movie in my head So that's why.

Justin: That's great.

Jamie: Me too.

Vonster: That's why I always love reading because I remember where I paused it and I wonder what's gonna happen next type of thing. So I remember Savannah when she is a little kid in grade school, and she is complaining about having to read and and I kind of use that analogy with her and I go just.

Vonster: Just try it. You know it's It's kind of like watching a movie in your head. You're creative and you'll be able to paint a pretty good picture in your head, and ever since then she's like reading as well.

Karen: Von and I have audible in common and I think Jamie does too. I'm not sure about you Justin, but if I'm working on a project that is like a photoshop retouching project or something that is I Want to say a mindless project I can sit and listen to a book and it turns off all the noise in my head except for what I'm doing on the screen and you know it's kind of like having that movie on.

Justin: Yeah, I definitely have an audio need. So for example I have to have music on when I'm creating and I can even.

Karen: So yeah, it's definitely a relaxing experience.

Justin: Maybe even shift my perspective based on the type of music. So that's one kind of trick that I've really incorporated into into my work, you know, and I think this these are all you know, um, sounds similar and. Probably simple. But I think those are the things that we forget about you know, still for me and this is something that's really interesting, especially with some you aren't creatives is I still need to I still would rather sketch out even if my thumbnails are you know 200 unidentifiable things to someone else, but they're the things that get me like how am I gonna do this a on this logo or how am I going to you know lay this thing out I just do it over and over and over again because I find if I get on the computer. 

Yeah, Karen's like got a sketchbook out if I get on the computer I even I try to do it on my iPad too. But there's just something about paper that.

Karen: Love it.

Justin: I don't know it's still magical to me and I've had people over the years where they push back on that and I just don't get that personally I don't know how you can iterate and fly through ideas faster than that and I and I used to i.

Karen: Ah.

Justin: I remember when I had my subscription to HOW and PRINT and COMMUNICATION ARTS I remember I used to go to the annuals and I would look at this great work and you know find a little piece of something there that you know is a seed of an idea and so you know today I I will often look at like Dribble or Pinterest or you know I'll look at um. Ah, some you know Instagram people that I follow, and it really isn't to do anything but unlock an idea you know I don't know if you guys relate this on the visual side especially if you know you can look at a bunch of work and then. You might find something that really attracts you by the time you're done. It's not even in the same galaxy of what you started with but it's whatever that key was to unlock that door. 

Jamie: This.

Karen: Absolutely I used to look at um you know since I've been doing this for 100 years plus um I used to we used to have the ART DIRECTOR'S annuals and like you know three-inch thick books filled with all of this unbelievable work and we'd have bookshelves of it and funny thing is I used to work for this studio. It was I worked there when I was still in college. And then five years later, I worked there for 5 years and I still do work with them once in a while just had coffee with the guy. Um last week and if I go into his office. You know I can't say a lot of those old old books are there. But.

Justin: Wow, That's awesome.

Karen: All you know he has all these great old books and he's not that much older than I am so it's you know I miss going through the books. It's fun looking online but it's not the same if you're going through the books you have a sketchbook next to you sort of and.

Justin: Yeah I remember like I yeah I remember putting post it's on there and going through those things and having a million million posts I read an article a couple years ago that really resonated with me now I wish I could remember who wrote it or or where I read it. But.

Karen: Yup.

Vonster: Yep.

Justin: It was really this concept of how are you living your life to fill your mind with things that really activate it right? So, for example, you guys all talk about walking and there's no doubt that movement you know, even before you start doing something. Really beneficial to us to you know, have just a clear mind. But I've also found for me. 

Um, you know Jamie of on to your point and even you know on the audible side like if I'm reading on a regular basis I'm traveling. You know it doesn't have to be anywhere extraordinary but you know I'm just getting out inside of my normal.

Karen: Okay.

Justin: And then for me man movies and story. Whatever way I can I can digest those when I'm doing the accommodation of those things it feels like my ideas just flow way easier and I never even get in that space and oftentimes when I've been stuck I look back and say man I haven't. Haven't moved in a while I haven't really read anything, or I haven't gone anywhere I haven't you know what? I mean I don't know does that land with you guys at all as far as you know, kind of what you're doing in the space around you to Help. You know you keep in that zone.

Jamie: Yeah I mean I'm getting into cooking right now Karen knows it's a big passion of vine I mean I was a terrible cook. I didn't grow up in a household where cooking was a priority and we would beg My mom to bake you know. So it started off for me with just learning some old recipes of my mom's and baking and now I'm like I Love cooking. I had no idea it. It makes me feel creative you know and then you feel like you imagine yourself, you know in some restaurant while you're cooking or being like so silly and you're like chopping things and you're like oh yeah, I mean and then you make something and everybody's like this is awesome. I don't know to me that's like the ultimate creating a meal from scratch with my hands is you know, incredibly creative feeling.

Justin: I Love it.

Karen: There's no question. It's a it's a form of artwork that and it's awesome because whenever we travel, Jamie cooks for me and I sit back. Awesome.

Justin: Well, I also love that the the thing about cooking. It's really beautiful. The thing about cooking. It's really beautiful too is then you you get to share it right? And I think that's a part of cooking that I think is really yeah yeah.

Vonster: Hot pockets don't count.

Karen: Yes, it's a part of community building.

Jamie: I do like that.

Vonster: There's ah a great quote that says reading is thinking with someone else's head and I've bought I've I've always liked that so you can you can pick up a topic doesn't matter what genre it is and you can read it.

Jamie: Oh totally. Yep.

Karen: Yeah.

Vonster: And it's like you get to at least theoretically experience the same what they experience if they're a good writer that is but that's what that's why I like it. It's like I've learned more about history by just reading on my own nonfiction historical novels there. There's a great one I read in 2001 or 2021 um, it was about like all the settlers from the original colonies and they started going to ohio territory to start moving west. 

Like it was just fascinating I mean there's all these rabbit trails that came out in it like ah these settlers were going out in this unsettled area of Ohio of Western Ohio and in the process of finding a place to put a homestead. They find all of these. Mound ruins and they didn't know what they were so they went to the local tribe who were they had befriended already and they asked the ah the chief you know, did you guys create all these ruins that are out here in the forest we found. He goes no. Those were here before we got here and and then there is a footnote, and I looked down and it had a footnote on on that part of the book and and come to find out. There is a whole culture called the Hopewell culture that preexisted all these native American tribes and. They don't really know where they all went. They just know they existed because all these mounds if you start in Ohio and you just follow the border under the Canadian border all the way over to Washington you'll find mound cultures and ruins.

Karen: Ah.

Vonster: It's just fascinating. It's like I never heard any of that until I read this book about you know the early settlers. It's just fun.

Karen: Well now you're going to have to let us know what it is. We can put it in the show notes. Yeah and I want to listen to it. You know I want to go back to.

Jamie: Karen and I love history.

Vonster: Um, yeah.

Justin: Um, and I love Von teaching us history. Thank you Von.

Karen: Absolutely, you know I want to go back to? Um, you know the fact that looking at books looking at inspiration online for design and things like that and 1 time I said something to Bob, my husband Robert Myrick, he's a fine artist. And I said to him is it weird that we that as a designer I go and look for inspiration online and things like that and or in books and he says no, it's your museum and you know as fine artists we go to museums and we.

Justin: And what a great perspective.

Karen: Um, for inspiration and for looking into the past as to what other people have done and you're doing the same thing by following other artists or designers online and in books and things like that and when he said that I mean it was probably twenty years ago but this conversation triggered that and I think it's just it's a you know something to think about It's not so it's not like we're copying. It's we're looking at inspiration. We're keeping up with trends. We're, you know, looking at colors and um and I think that's why all these different resources online that. Um, that we have to inspire us are really amazing.

Jamie: Well, and for people who aren't designers. You know like me you, you guys were talking about online inspiration in that way, you know for reading isn't just about books for me too. It means I can go out on Linkedin or other places and. Read blogs or read other people's thoughts so Von when you were talking about, you know, living inside someone else's head like I I I do enjoy going out and exploring what other people are talking about too. It's it's ah like you know, not just about looking at things but you know about. I enjoy looking at others I enjoy reading other people's thoughts even in the present day online. You know real-time.

Justin: Yeah, I think that doing that sort of exploration is you know as much of learning what you don't want to do write or read or draw whatever then you do. 

Hey, welcome back. Von. Did you take a little vacation there from our podcast?

Vonster: I Just realized something, I had to deal with it.

Justin: Karen, can you keep this In the podcast? Um, because.

Karen: Um.

Vonster: Ah sorry, I muted my mike. You guys didn't have to start cracking up.

Justin: Um, hey listen Von if you're gonna if you're gonna fart. We're adults here. It happens you can just let it go. We'll edit it out.

Jamie: Von, go look at the chat.

Vonster: Ah. That wasn't it, I was, I can't remember where I put my iPhone needs. 

Jamie: Super urgent that you find it in the middle of recording your podcast.

Vonster: No because I had something on it I wanted to bring up.

Jamie:  Also oh okay now I feel bad.

Justin: Ah.

Karen: Um, what it was.

Karen: Yeah, okay, but.

Justin: Ah, that's the best far use I've heard in a while but um Karen good luck editing this part because I think some of it. You should absolutely keep in but that's just one man's opinion.

Vonster: Wow rather.

Karen: I Know that is going to be too. That'll be interesting. Um.

Vonster: Ah.

Jamie: I couldn't even breathe for a second.

Justin: Ah, well I think we could probably talk about different ways to you know, kind of get out of creative block or you know find that inspiration I think we should talk more on another show about what inspires us but in closing here.

Karen: Ah.

Justin: If you were to give you know someone just one of your key. Ah, you know, kind of creative block go tos that that you know either to prepare you to you know, avoid that or to help you get through that moment. What's the one that really. Is most valuable to you.

Karen: Um, I would say just get up and walk away, get up and walk away and do something else for you know as long as it takes and I know that's hard for people that have jobs and things like that. But you know take a 15 minute breather and um, and just kind of restart your engine whether it's going for a walk or whatever.

Justin: I love that or yeah, as love to 1 of my first creative drers would tell me when I was working on something creative and it was stuck. He goes, you know, go work on touching up that photo used almost like a different part of your brain and.

Karen: It's that mindless thinking that sometimes helps you to move forward.

Justin: Yeah. Um, yeah Von what about you.

Vonster: Um I do I agree with Karen. I mean I know a lot of people have you know timelines and expectations they ought to hit so even if it's like setting something aside for fifteen-thirty minutes and just refocus on something completely different like you said it's it's a great way to kind of reset and then if you reapproach it whether it's a visual problem whether it's more of a conceptual. You know you're trying to come up with an idea. It

 helps to kind of I don't know kickstart your thinking again and usually you can figure it out after that point.

Justin: Awesome, Jamie what about you.

Jamie: 2 things, 1 is if you're writing something that requires a lot of energy. It's exhausting but some people will spend a lot of time on the introduction paragraph and won't move on. Ah, to the rest of the writing until they've like tightened that up or neatened up and I think over time I've learned to just stop writing that intro paragraph first. And I'll actually go through and try to write as much of the other copy and while I'm writing the other copy the intro presents itself. And it has saved me countless hours of being stuck trying to find the perfect way and you know for other writers out there. The story changes as you're writing, so you know even as the client's like this is with a direction I want you to go, most of my clients are really good about letting me be a little. Freer and a little less ah stringent. So you know I might change my mind about the direction of the ah story as I'm writing it, so it's just really hard to, you know, start with that first paragraph. 

So that's my first one and then the second one is just going do something easier. And know it sounds really stupid to say that. But if you're working on something and it's really taxing on your brain and you've got a whole to do list of other things. There are other easier things on that list I guarantee you to that you can go back and hit and check off and feel productive and by the time you're finished with that. Might be ready to come back and and try again.

Justin: Now I Love that.

Karen: I think that's great advice.

Vonster: Yeah, writing. For somebody, it seems like, to get really good writing. It's more about editing than it is writing and that used to hang me up too until and I don't know if this has to do with anything Dyslexia or whatever in my own head but like I found when I write stuff I always put what should be last before what I have last and I'm always copping and pasting it at the bottom. It's it's it's weird. It's like my mind always does that? Yeah yeah.

Jamie: I do the same thing.

Karen: Well, we need to talk about that at some point in another episode about writing because it's something that um, as designers I know a lot of us are challenged at it. So I know I am so I think that would be an excellent topic.

Justin: Yeah I love that topic I think yeah I think all of your suggestions are are great I I will say that I just got back from ah a trip a hiking trip to Yosemite and I can tell you that just being in nature and.

Karen: To talk about? yeah.

Jamie: What about you Justin I don't think we hit yours.

Vonster: Um, good idea.

Justin: You know going out and just you know travel and being just exposed to things that just really inspire me has just energized me Beyond. You know what I expected you know I haven't traveled as much the last couple years and so you know whatever you can do to to do that. I think that's a great, you know, sort of preemptive creative block therapy that we could use, and I think that you know to build off what you guys have said I I Really ah agree with them doing something different simple. You know, um. Is a really great way to just kind of shift your brain still feel productive if you need to write and and come back to something when you can. So I Love it? Well hey this is a great conversation. Um, so we talked about a lot of things that we can cover in the Future. Um.

Jamie: Hundred percent

Karen: Yep.

Justin: I'm most excited about Von's clay pond drawing that we'll have someday and share in a future episode. So thanks Von for that.

Karen: Um, now will we'll get that posted on the website a picture of it. That's what we're gonna do with von diving into it stupid that writing.

Justin: Oh my gosh Von.

Jamie: Scuba Steve

Vonster: Ah I've fallen into it once cleaning. Oh yeah I can't I can take it once I get all this stupid petals out I'll take a foot up. F.

Justin: You at least got to give us a picture for our show notes of your koi pond or that sea monster of a ko you have.

Jamie: But a little tour.

Justin: Well hey y'all you have a great day and I can't wait for the next episode.

Jamie: Thanks Justin thanks guys.

Karen: Sounds great. Thanks Justin!

Vonster: Bye.

In this episode, Co-Hosts Karen Larson, Von Glitschka, Justin Ahrens, and Jamie Saunders discuss the power of playing nice with others. We tackle tough subjects like client disappointment and toxic co-workers, and share our go-to tips for dealing with even the most impossible situations. Get your popcorn ready, it’s about to get juicy. 

SHOW NOTES:

Scott Hull, Art Rep: https://scotthull.com 

Carlos Segura Working Agreement: https://www.honeycopy.com/copywritingblog/working-agreement

Amazing article about Carlos Segura’s Working Agreement: https://www.honeycopy.com/copywritingblog/working-agreement 

Savannah Glitschka, Glitschka Studios: https://www.glitschkastudios.com/about  and https://www.instagram.com/savannahfaerie/   

Michael Janda on Client Red Flags: http://michaeljanda.com or https://www.booklets.io/b/client-red-flags-part-1-morejanda

Laura Hoskins: https://www.linkedin.com/in/laurahoskins/ 

ROUGH TRANSCRIPT:

The Creative Shit Show
Episode 3: Playing Nice With Others

Karen: Hi, I'm Karen Larson. And I'm here with Jamie Sanders, Von Glitschka, and Justin Ahrens. I know for me, collaboration has become everything after being self-employed for so long. About a year and a half ago, Jamie Saunders and I started collaborating regularly. For me, it's been a game-changer. So today, that's what we're going to talk about collaboration.

I hope everybody gets a lot out of it. So let's get started.

Justin, I know you own a firm of 18 people or so, and I'm wondering how you guys manage collaboration. How does it work externally and internally for your team?

Justin: Yeah, that's great; that's a great question. When I think of collaborations. I often don't think about the internal part of it, we have a process, and we have ways we do that and share ideas and all that sort of thing. But, so I'm going to take the sort of collaborating with people outside of your organization because I think for us, it's one of, what's one of our exciting moments of collaboration. 

Cause we often get to work with each other. Not that we don't enjoy it, but when you get to work, maybe with someone like Von, when I get, when we get to work, when we get to work with someone else. It's just fun because there's a different voice.

There are different talents, and you get to have this moment where you get them; I don't know, it just feels like you get to get out of your normal little bit and work with someone. And I think one of the key, one of the key parts of our collaborating with someone else if you're going to work with someone like Von, for example, then like really work with them.

Meaning that you have to go all-in and try. Right? Do what you would do with someone else, meaning, create a creative brief and outline that and do all those things, but then trust that person to bring. They're game for you. And that's one of the things the times when our collaboration hasn't gone well; we've either chosen someone that maybe wasn't a good match for the project.

So that's on us. 

Karen: Yeah. And I'd like to talk about that. I'd like to ultimately talk about how we find matches. 

Justin: Yeah, no, we absolutely should do that. And I think the second part is really is, where we micromanage someone? Cause a lot of times someone like checks up on, or a photographer or something, a videographer like you are choosing them based on past work.

And sometimes I think we get into this trap of saying, I want what you did for XYZ organization. And that's unfortunate. Because you might be missing out, or I think you are missing out on something that's just as magical but it's unique for that project. So I was always trying to make sure that if it's me leading it, or one of my other teammates be like, let's trust them, give them space to do their thing.

Karen: Yeah, that's great. I think that you made a point about being able to; you don't want to box them. You are hiring them for their entire vision. And that's so important. And I don't think, sometimes I think that people forget that. Jamie, what about you? How does collaboration fit into your world?

Jamie: I think what's always interesting to me is having the unique perspective of having sat on their side of the table and now sitting on the other side of the table. I didn't even know I missed it. So when I left corporate life, one of the things I started to miss was just the interaction, the hallway conversations, the break room conversations, the random ideas that can pop into your head as you're like interacting with people from all over the company, the country and internationally. It was just that I miss that like vibe, but then, that's the other part of my job that I found really hard to leave behind.

And honestly, it's probably what kept me there a long time was just the responsibility to the outside collaborators. I had the privilege of working with Von or with Justin professionally and Karen professionally at Neenah before I left there. 

So I feel like. I loved that. I loved being on projects with creative people and infusing your thoughts and energy into my day. And then we did posters together. Justin, there's a book together there was, Von. I don't even know if you remember this, but we used to sponsor your podcast a long time ago at Neenah.

And I love that because you would send me things and I could look at creative things. So even though I'm not a designer, I love being with designers. I and I figured out, like when I was at Neenah, that these are my people, that you get me. And I remember to Von we were at HOW Design Live in Chicago.

I don't know if you remember this or not, but we were hanging out late at night one night, there was a big crowd of us. We found a couch and everybody was just kinda like vibing. And I said, I just, I don't know why you guys hang out with me. I said, I'm not a creative. And you said, but you are in your own way you, you communicate, you create, you get us and we understand you and that's it. That's why we're all like together. So to me, it really cemented that, that feeling, that I was also collaborating, that it wasn't just like me getting excited about working with you guys.

Maybe there was like a mutual feeling. Of being allowed to do what you do and having a sponsor per se, to help you, do what you wanted or create what you wanted to create. 

Karen: that was the best, so good. 

Justin: But don't you think that's the magic when it's reciprocated on both sides? That's when collaboration really hits. 

Karen: It's rocket fuel. 

Jamie: Absolutely. It's so much fun. And then now it's here I am years later, decades later. Here we are doing the show together and having a great time together, but it feels good to collaborate with you guys and bounce things off of you.

And you miss that sometimes when you're alone in your office, having just those people who understand what you've been through in that history together, I don't know how you feel about that, Von?

Von: Yeah, I missed for the last two years. So I'm glad they're going to go back to a couple of the events I've normally gone to live or doing it again, then share. So I'm looking forward to that. The virtual thing was okay to try it, but it just, it was never the same. The part I enjoyed the most was just hanging out with people.

Talking about what we're doing here. So that's always the funniest part. 

Justin: Von, you've talked to many, learn what people can do, sorry, in person, like you learn, you just learn so much more, you connect so much harder, like in person, yeah. 

Von: I agree with that. That's why, I think it was you, Jamie, they're saying that you were originally thinking of teaching and then your son laughed at that fact.

And it's I taught for seven years here, locally in the college. And it was okay. But it's I like the way I'm able to teach now where. It's not live audience, obviously, but. It's I've engaged with a lot more people doing it that way then doing it, live in person.

Especially the last time I spoke or last time I taught was that George Fox University in his right before COVID broke out. And so I made the mistake of telling the students you don't have to log in if you don't want to. So guess how many showed up and I'm going okay. That was the wrong way to handle it.

Jamie: No collaboration. 

Justin: What about we've all collaborated with you at one time or another, what do you look for or hope or what's present when you have successful collaborations? 

Von: I think you touched on a big one is, there's been times where if it's. If it's a project that's coming through Scott Hull, let's say, and they're interested in having me work with their team on whatever the project is.

It's always frustrating for me where, like Scott says they want to see. Do you have any examples of have you illustrated a turtle before or whatever? And I just happened to have I've done every other animal. You could think of just no turtle, but yet it's like they can't see beyond.

I it's just weird. It's and most of them are creative directors, but that's only a title because they can't seem to see the potential sometimes. So I guess I like it when they can look at a body of work and they go, okay. He knows what he's doing. Just give me the right information and just trust me to deliver.

Some results that you might be expecting, but also unexpected results. And when there's a few clients that come to mind, when I think of that, who they're used to me doing that. So they're fun to work with because that's what they do. They trust me to have their best interest. Heart. I'm not just going to do whatever.

I think just looks cool. I'm smart enough to know they have a target audience that it has to, specifically apply to that. And that's the, so it's nice when they trust me. And my, and I think we might've talked about this a while back, not today, but I'm not that great. I can see earmarks. It could be potential problems, but I tend to, I don't know.

I don't want to immediately think somebody is going to be a pain in the butt to work with. So I give him the benefit of the doubt to that, that. Probably an error on my part and it's come back to bit me like two or three times or last few years. And I'm hyper sensitive to it now. So if somebody, I just had somebody contact me of their day this is what we want.

It's like some crappy little napkin drawn. I'm like going. Yeah here's a local. Here's a local screen printer, go to them, have them do it. I don't do this. It's you wouldn't want to pay me. And it's stupid anyway, so I don't want to work. I don't say that

 there's a really good work agreement. Carlos Sigora has it. And if you go to a site, you can download it and it's just no bullshit, really truncated. If you can agree to this, then we can work together. If not bye.

Jamie: I saw that on LinkedIn, I think that's been making the rounds lately. People have had it.

Karen: I think that part of collaboration  is all about built on trust. And without that trust between all of the different collaborators, it's just gonna fall apart. So I think that. I've been a, I've been super fortunate over the years to be able to work with corporations as an outside consultant.

And Justin, you were commenting on how, having that outside influence come in and really, Bring a different point of view and a different energy. And I think that type of collaboration for whether it's corporations or other studios and things like that is really wonderful. And there's a reason why corporations.

Go outside and hire external creative to maybe redesign their logo, even if they have a internal marketing department or redesign things. Because internally, first of all, they have all sorts of other things going on and they've got so much tunnel vision about what's going on internally.

The internal designers have a real hard time being able to work with leadership and work with the decision-makers to come up with those types of things. So bringing in and collaborating with external people is really super beneficial. But I think that internally, and I know I've mentioned this to you guys, maybe not on the podcast, but outside of the podcast, I have a  fascination with how teams work together. Internal collaboration fascinates me. It lifts people. It builds trust. And a lot of times what happens is things come out of that, that you don't realize these people were capable of doing that unless you give them the opportunity. So for example, if you do an a, if there's a video project that comes into the studio, And you put your team together, somebody saying, oh, I've been doing this type of stuff outside, and you don't even realize it unless you get, they get put on that team.

Justin: I agree. You know what, as you're talking here, I have a question for you as well about what particularly interests you about groups. Is it for you to help understand how to work with them?

That sort of thing. But before you answer that, I think just before I forget, I want to share, I think one, another part of collaboration that's really powerful is the energy it brings. Because I can't tell you how excited I am to see what ever our collaborative is going to be. To that project.

Like the first, I feel bad sometimes because the first presentation of the first draft or whatever that they're sharing, we're so excited. Like maybe we're almost too excited, we're setting it up to fail because and at the same time, It's a, such a huge bomber when, cause it's not a, it's not a guarantee, right?

No one bats a thousand. If I could tell you how many times Vaughn sent us something, I'm like, oh, this is my attitude.

Karen: My attitude about that is cause I do a lot of experience in creative departments and I am that outside collaborator and I always set it up. I'm not sure if I'm hitting the mark, let's talk about I don't like to go in with a hundred percent solution. I like to go in with, this is what I'm thinking. 

And I like to talk about, I like to collaborate as a, a discussion. I like to have that discussion drives what we're ultimately going to do. I don't feel like just like Jamie and I working together. I don't feel like it's my job to come up with the solution.

I feel like it's the team's job. That's what I love about collaborating. 

Jamie: One of the things that I liked when I was, sitting in that marcomm chair was when I would get included in the process. So it was like, not just I always liked when I felt heard, is what I'm getting at.

So someone would come in, we'd do this big pitch meeting. And I would gather, I would be responsible internally to gather, I don't know, four or five, other of my coworkers to come in and tell our story and tell who our customer is and tell what we're trying to accomplish.

Karen: You guys are the experts.

Jamie: Exactly. So we're telling our story to a creative that comes in, and then. We tell that we do it two or three times, right? Cause you gotta pitch it out to a couple of different agencies and then you could always tell the people who listened, and you could always tell the people who paid attention.

So that's what I tell my students, that I'm mentoring at SCAD is as you're putting together this pitch deck, and you're putting together this presentation deck, any tidbit that you got from that meeting should go into this deck. I heard you when you said, I, I listened about your client is, this right?

And let go. Subtle confirmations, but your presentation should be very engaging and not just one-sided. You're not just showing your work, so don't just do a pitch deck. That's just a bunch of your work because no one cares. Don't waste our time. Come in and tell me that you heard me, so rather than going on a rant. We would always pick the firm, and there's usually only one. It was so weird who would actually get it. And then the work would be better because you felt like they were taking ownership of it. 

And I love that now when Karen and I meet with clients, it's just part of the vernacular. We say all the time WE should think about it.

And we don't mean we, me and Karen, we mean we as a group, we as the company, because you're involved now  as part of the team and it's not, it's genuine. It's not even forced. We just do it. And it's like something that we never even talked about. 

Karen: We just say it. And Justin it's if you, if me as a freelance designer, which I don't consider myself a freelance designer, but I play the role of a freelance designer with a couple different design agencies that I've had relationships with her for a long time. It's never me. I'm going to bring you the solution. I don't get anything out of that. I honestly don't.

I if I was coming into Rule29, I would come in and say, I want to talk to you as a team, figure out what the best solution is. Maybe I'm not the right person to do this. Maybe you, I can just help your internal people get to where we need to be, because I true. I truly believe that again. It's back to that discussion and the brainstorming.

And I know on another episode, I talked about figuring out so many things before it gets into the design stage.

Justin: no, and I think that's one of the things I really admire about you. I think you're great at understanding, process and what's in front of you and how people are working together.

I think that's a gift that you have. Developed through your freelance years and now in your new chapter leading your organization with Jamie. I think that's pretty fantastic. I think that's also a really great way to. When it comes to collaborating is to understand your internal team and process how that works and making sure that I think if you're the project lead, another really important responsibility is to, for lack of a better term protect that collaborator, that you're working with to make sure that they are very aware of the process and how it works, but also making sure that you are an advocate. 

So for example, Karen if you sent or Jamie sent a copy of whatever it was to us. And we were to me and I was sharing with my team, it's really easy for people to pick and poke at something.

They don't know the parameters that we're given. And so I think it's another important part of collaboration is making sure that, you pick the right person for the job, you trust them and what they're doing. And then you also. Bring them through your internal process and culture to make sure that the project has the greatest chance.

Von: One thing that kind of popped into my head was Savannah has been working with me going on five years now. And when she first started working with me, I'm used to, I was used to work in on my own. So I knew on certain days, Okay. I'm not going to be doing a lot of design. I'm doing mostly just concept and trying to work out what we're going to do or how we're going to do it.

And I'm working through the thinking part of it basically. And so when Savannah, I knew she was going to be working on a project, I would give her the basic information. And she looked at me like deer in the headlights. What do I do? I go this is the part in art school. They don't teach you a whole lot out.

You have to struggle with it. Now you have to start working with these ideas and see what you come up with. And she'd always come back with one or two little things and I go, okay, you need to. Keep playing with it. And she kept pushing back saying, I think it'd be better if we both brainstorm on this.

And I was like going, and I'm thinking to myself for the last 15 years you just struggle with it. That's what she kept saying. She kept pushing back. And so finally I realized  she processes things a little differently, but it does work well when we collaborate like that and we start bouncing things off each other because we worked on last year.

Branded a dating website that's for hunters and fishermen. And we had to come up with ideas and it was in the process of talking. I'm going, we're just writing down different things. Okay. Cupid, falling in love. And then Savannah. Oh, what if we did a Deere Cupid and then I drew out a deer Cupid, and then she came up with an error part about it.

And that ultimately became part of the new identity we came up with or the identity we came up with. And, but yeah, I think it's good. Not to think. It's always going to work one way. It, so it always seems when it becomes ideation, You're always dealing with. Getting to what's called a gamma level of thinking where ideas are formed, but that is hard to do on your own.

But when you're collaborating with other people and you're both addressing it, somebody might say some that doesn't even make anything trigger on them, but it triggers on the other person. And then they say something and then that triggers on you. And then that's when you start popping into that level and you start.

Like hitting on all cylinders and that's when it becomes fun. 

Karen: Yep. 

Jamie: Totally agree. Yeah. That is fun. And I think too, when you're trying to decide. You get to a certain stage in your practice where you're like, maybe your business is really good and you'd better bring in another person.

And they're not trying to bring them in full time and you're, but you do need help. And then you, and we know a lot of people in the industry, so you've got to make sure that you can find somebody, where they're going to be happy. You're still going to be profitable.

And you realize that. Part of collaboration. Like we keep talking about is letting know, when you've been working for yourself for a long time, you're used to 

You do the work, you make the money, and it goes in your account, but then you start to wonder, am I limiting myself by not allowing other people to come in and help me out.

And maybe if I allow those people to come and help me out with the things that I'm not as interested in, but they really have passion for. It frees you up to start doing creative collaboration somewhere else. 

And it took me a while to figure this out, but, trusting somebody enough to bring them in, to collaborate as one thing, but also having them come in and help you do the work.

And then you're passing that work through to the client As part of your company, man that's 

Karen: like the ultimate

Jamie: Respect as a business owner. I just didn't know how that would make me feel. It's emotional to bring somebody else in and ask them to write something for you or do something for you and then turn it back over to the client.  

Karen: But that's what you've been doing for 20 years. So weird. 

Jamie: Yeah. Respect to you because it's been a journey for me to let go, but once I do, it's like great stuff is happening, 

Justin: and again, I think that's the that's a part of trusting that partner.

And having a process to pick the right person and to match all that. But I think that. Collaborating even internally, right? So to Von, to your point, you're a two-person army, you and your daughter, I'm doing all the work. I think in the point, my career is in right now, like one of my greatest joys collaborating is actually seeing all those classes.

On my team and they, have something in my mind and they'll come and show me their ideas. I'm blown away. And that's like super inspiring for me right there. Like they're literally. And that actually it's part of collaborative caring you're talking about earlier. Like it brings us energy, it brings us light.

It brings us excitement, especially when someone. Does something better than what you could imagine, often if you guys work, if you work together, it's going to be better than what you could do, in my opinion for doing it. So I think that's really one of those moments in our work that is just really just life-giving and joyful and cool.

And we shouldn't avoid the fact that sometimes it goes wrong. It could be life-sucking, but you still learn from it. 

Karen: But we know that we know we can't do it all. We, I know I don't, I'm not a writer, I'm not a programmer. I can program a little bit, I can't do everything and I don't want to do everything.

So you have to, and you really, you cannot scale without some collaboration, you cannot scale in your business and, You ha over all of the years that I've worked, I've always had collaborators. I've had writers, I've had programmers, I've had photographers. It creates, it takes a team to build and deliver.

But one thing we haven't talked about too much is the collaboration that we have with our clients. And it's a collaboration that we have with our clients. Drives everything.

I find the collaboration with clients, the most fascinating thing. Granted, there are pain in the ass clients. But if you build those relationships, you can trust the fact that they're going to pay you. You can trust. It's all about building relationships and trusting. In my opinion, 

Jamie: you have all had that client though. Like I started my business and I was like, okay, I'm ready.

I got this thing. And somebody was like, Hey. Yeah, I can't use you, but I've got this client of a client, kind of person. And I'm like, okay. And they're like I'm going to pass you off to them. And I had one conversation with them and I thought, okay, this is going to be so easy. I'm just going to write their, Google. It was like, literally about SEO, just writing some Google copy for them to be found on Google, updating some of their keywords, doing the blurb there about us, whatever. 

And it was just, it was so odd and I can never get them to respond to me. And it just got so bizarre to the point where I literally had to go back to the person who referred me to them and say, maybe it's me, like what's happening here.

I don't understand. And he said, oh, he's just busy. And I literally. I'm not going to tell you how much it was. It's shameful, but I ate that. Like I ate it, and I never ended up delivering to that person and they never ended up calling me back. And it has haunted me for five years now.

Like it's just out there it's just what did I do? Did you do it? Did I do it? Like, where did we go? And I realized the biggest thing was in the beginning of. We just didn't bond. We didn't connect and we didn't collaborate. And I feel like it was just like a side thing that he barely wanted to do.

And they brought me in to just do something. And then. They didn't have the courage to tell me why it wasn't working or I don't know. It was, 

Karen: I think they probably didn't even understand what they asked you to do. And then they were busy in it, obviously. We'll never know. We'll never know.

Jamie: Have you ever had that before? Have you guys ever done? It's so weird that one client that just kinda like stiffs you?

Justin: Yeah, we have a couple clients, believe it or not, that have prepaid us last year and now have not, it's been like four or five, six months and they have gotten back to us. And so I have this. Cash in the bank and we even started some of the job and I'm just like I feel like we should finish the job over there. They ghost me. 

Jamie: I guess 

Karen: I had a client that happened to me, a couple of years ago, it was an attorney, and he paid me 50% upfront, and it was a good chunk, a really good chunk. And he just would not communicate. And finally I just gave up. It's and it's not like I'm going to return as money.

I tried and tried for months. I think I tried for a year to communicate with them. 

Von: There's a great guy on Instagram. I follow he spoke at a conference right before COVID broke. That's where I first met him. His name's Michael John but he just, I think this was yesterday or no, this morning he posted nine  client red flags, and almost all of these are.

Hit the top 10 list for me, but his second one client doesn't respond to communication. As soon as the client goes cold, it's it never fails. It's always, something's going to go haywire. And it frustrates me because I don't purposely avoid I'll follow up after a couple of days and just say, Hey, I'm falling out.

But if they still don't respond, then. Then I know something's not meeting whatever expectation they have, but they're not telling me anything so 

Jamie: deep, dark feeling. 

Von: I know, it really depresses me because that is the number one sign. Now that I know something was going to just go off rails and I'm going to end up hating the whole thing.

Jamie: You have to have that experience though, right? It sets you up for the next so that you are like, I don't do that again. I won't be

Von: but I keep doing it. So that's the part that's my Achilles heel. 

Jamie: Yeah. And I love you Von. 

Karen: I think that it's all about how do we not take it personally, and that's, I feel like I closed with this last time.

I think that, these things happen and you're not going to connect and be able to collaborate with everybody. 

Jamie: I like everyone to like me, that I know 

Karen: Jamie does have that problem where I'm just. 

Jamie: Yeah. Karen's like screw it. And I'm like, no I don't. Why, like now, 

Justin: Have you guys ever collaborated with someone that may be you don't get along with? Because I have a collaborative to an illustrator that I didn't necessarily really like our interaction. Like I didn't jive with them like personally, but the job turned out great. Now we never use them again. Cause it wasn't, it just didn't feel like we connected, but the client was happy and all that sort of thing.

And we would have used them had we'd done more work in that style, but if you ever had one where you guys didn't really jive with them, but yet it turned out. 

Karen: Yeah. I've worked with writers over the years and  again. We have to remind ourselves we are in business. This is not some emotional fine artsy thing that we're doing, 

Jamie: and this is what I get every day. Just so we're all aware. Tough love environment at clever and strategy.  

Karen: It's not always going to be perfect, what ultimately  are we fulfilling what the client needs and are we getting a paycheck from it? 

Why do creatives have to feel fluffy and warm and fuzzy? I'm curious about that. 

Justin: Like, why do we need to feel that? Whoa, Is that an episode we're talking about? Are we answering? 

Karen: Yeah, I think, no, I think that's going to be our next episode. Why do we have to, that would be a good one. Yeah. Why do we, why as creatives do we think we need confirmation all the time. Don't get me wrong. we all need every employee , whether they're creative or not, but creatives tend to need more.

What's the word I'm looking for? 

Justin: We want affirmation. We want to have confirmation that the job we did that 

Karen: but there's a difference between the affirmation or if we fulfilled the job. You might not have loved the design they picked, but did it fill their needs?

Justin: Yeah. It's getting to this because I think there's a nuance to it. Yeah. 

Karen: Yeah. 

Jamie: Like one thing I figured out today is just, one, there's a million different types of collaboration, whether it's internal, external, Bringing in new partners, researching people, bringing in people that you've never worked with before, there's ongoing, partnerships and vendors that you trust.

Collaboration can just mean so many different things, in the business  space, it, when you know it, like you feel it when you feel it and something just clicks and you. And you make some cool stuff like there's no, I think that's why it hurts so bad when it doesn't work, because it feels so good when it does honestly you feel it's, it is, it's like a high, you get excited and then I want to do it again.

Von: This is the way I've thought about it over the years. And I agree that when I think. I'm clicking and things are, the ideas are coming out, but they don't like anything, but they can't really explain to me what they want or where they want to go or why it's not working. And I feel a disconnect there.

It's I, it always makes me bummed out for a few days after the fact when things come to an end. But as long as I know. I delivered ideas that could definitely work whether or not they liked them or not. I'm okay with that. What I'm not okay with is if I deliver something that I don't think is as strong as it could be, but for whatever reason, they love it and they're going to use it.

That's great. I still feel more of a failure in that regard. 

Karen: And why do you deliver it? 

Von: It's because that's what they wanted and they like it, but I don't think it's half as good as like another direction or whatever. 

Karen: My friend, Laura Hoskins, her philosophy about delivering design is, give them what they want and then give them what you think they need.

Von: I think that's a good approach. I tried to do that, but, 

Karen: but what they want might not be your favorite, 

Von: not necessarily a favorite, just they've provided me all the information you needed. I don't know. It's I'm okay. If I feel like I delivered to the level that I expect of myself.

And even if they don't like anything, I'm okay with that. But I don't like it when they decide to go in a direction or they change something that's really not needed. They changed it and now they like it and they're satisfied with it. And they think I provided what they wanted, but I still feel like a failure.

That's the part that it's head games. It's like an internal conversation I have with myself when it comes to design. And it's those are the things where I'm like, this could have been so much better, but it's like, they didn't.

Jamie: Let me dig around in that brain. Von's brain is fascinating to me. I would love to just crawl around in there. I know, I think there's so much 

Karen: I know, I think there's so much more we can talk about let's talk about, a lot of this in future episodes because we could, as we all know, go on for forever. Justin, what was your takeaway?

Justin: Oh man, there's some good stuff in here. I think what I was reminded of today, my, my takeaway was just how energizing and wonderfully positive collaborating with the right people are. It's just such a gift, a wonderful part of our business. So that inspired me to do more. 

Von, How about you?

Von: If it wasn't for collaboration, I wouldn't get half the work I do. Working with other people is why I enjoy my job.

Karen: Yeah, that's great. 

Jamie: Hey you guys are taking all the good answers. I promised myself. I wouldn't just be like what they said, but honestly,  it is, it's why we do what we do.

And I love people. I'm a people person and it's any chance I can have to try to bring in another idea or another creative. That gets me really excited. One, because I feel like it's not only helping me, but it helps them too, we can do stuff together and continue to help each other grow and change our business and help the clients. 

Karen: And for me,  it's about the fact that collaboration is a process and you want to find the right people, but you also have to learn to work together, respect each other, trust each other. And build ongoing relationships. So it's not just a one timer.

Jamie: So that's why I'm going to make some shit with you guys. Like I keep thinking about how do we make it? 

Justin: Yeah we're doing that right now. This is the podcast, but now we can make other stuff. 

Karen: I know I am loving this. You guys. Okay. Till next time, 

Justin: next time.

Jamie: Oh, Von. We love you. 

In this episode, Co-Hosts Jamie Saunders, Von Glitschka, Karen Larson, and Justin Ahrens chat through why we do what we do, weave through the stories of our friendships, and share how we got to where we are in our lives and careers. Friends for over ten years, we learned something new about each other including how to pronounce our last names. We also found a recipe for our signature Shit Show cocktail that you do not want to miss. Enjoy the show!

SHOW NOTES: 

Phil Cooke - https://cookemediagroup.com  or https://www.linkedin.com/in/philcookepage/ 

Stefan Mumaw, Creative Director at First Person Inc.: https://www.firstperson.is and http://www.stefanmumaw.com/

Pics from Africa: https://www.flickr.com/photos/rule29/4650437019/in/album-72157624037542359/

‘A Bug’s Life’ Movie Info: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Bug's_Life 

Wes Anderson: ‘Hotel Budapest’: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Grand_Budapest_Hotel and his latest is ‘The French Dispatch.’ 

Scott Hull, Art Rep: https://scotthull.com 

1883: https://tinyurl.com/1883Series 

J. Todd Anderson: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Todd_Anderson 

Cohen Brothers: https://collider.com/coen-brothers-best-movies/ 

Raising Arizona, Nic Cage: https://www.esquire.com/entertainment/movies/a36287882/why-raising-arizona-has-the-best-opening-scene-of-any-movie/ 

Big Lebowski Dude Sketch (Sketch is locked away) Use this image:

© Illustration by, Von Glitschka

Yellowstone Tornado Scene: https://youtu.be/oaqIe_n9rhI

Ruth from Ozark: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julia_Garner 

LinkedIn Learning: https://www.linkedin.com/learning/

All of Von’s content on LinkedIn Learning: https://www.drawingvectorgraphics.com

Von’s bi-weekly creative series: https://www.dvglab.com

Creative Shit Show Signature Cocktail: “The Muddy Water” 1 ½- 2 ounces bourbon · ½ lime, freshly squeezed · Topachico, to top of the glass (Karen and Justin prefer Bushmills)

ROUGH TRANSCRIPT:

Jamie: Hey guys, how's everybody doing today? I'm Jamie Saunders. I'm here with my awesome co-hosts. I've got Justin Ahrens, Karen Larson, and Von Glitschka on the podcast with us as always. And we're excited to be here. 

Justin: Can we start right away with the way you say Von's last name? Is it Gleeeska? 

Von: Yeah, that's what I was wondering.  

Justin: We’ve been friends for all these years and I think it's glitch SCA. 

Karen: Yes. It's just the southern pronunciation 

Jamie: So I'm off to a great start. I've known these guys for probably over a decade each and they don't know how to pronounce any of their names properly. It's going to be a good show. 

Just we've been noodling around.

I've been talking to other people and am very curious about some of the work that I've been doing. I've noticed a lot of people questioning their career choices and, obviously, we're talking a lot about the great reset in our world as it sits. And I think, I personally, lately I've been wondering a lot about why

 I'm doing what I'm doing. And then I'm starting to wonder why other people are doing what they're doing. 

And thought it would be a great conversation for us to have today. Just sharing our thoughts on, what we're doing and why we're doing it. And maybe we can help some people try to figure that out.

Karen: What do you guys think?

Justin: I don't know. I just think Gleeeeska, could you kick us off? 

Von: Why am I doing this? Cause I can't see myself doing anything else. That's why I'm doing it. But it's the definition of what I'm doing though. Seems to fundamentally change it. Three to five years. What I started off doing was trying to just have my own clients and do my own work.

And over the first five to seven years, the design business, it shifted to more or less being working with other places to help their clients. And I didn't mind that it's a little easier management-wise. I don't really get into that. I don't enjoy it. That is I guess what, why I'm doing what I'm doing is just because I like working with other people.

Karen: Makes sense 

Jamie: What about you, Karen? 

Karen: Like Von, I don't know what else I would be doing. I can think of lots of other things, that I would be doing, but I love to be a graphic designer. I love helping people grow their business. I love working with all the different people and 

learning about all the different businesses. And I know I use this phrase all the time, but getting my head around what somebody. Is doing and helping them break down all that detail and everything. I love that. And I love especially like working with engineers. They're great at stuff like that.

And they appreciate it. So I working with people that really appreciate graphic design and the power behind it, it's really super satisfying, but. Being self-employed for so many years, I love that. I don't have to go into an office. I love that. I don't have a boss, all those things, yeah, it's, there's it's a great life. 

Jamie: Jay dog? 

Justin: Yeah, I've thought about it. I thought about that before. Karen, one of the questions I was going to ask you right off the bat is, what would you be doing if you couldn't do what you're doing now? And. when we talk to students, sometimes they ask you that question.

And mine is I wish I would have either been an actor or a director. And I was saying that to my kids the other day. And they're like, why don't you do that? And I might. I dunno, I, we get to do that a little bit. When I went to school, there was no internet, right? The thought of a designer or creative doing a video on something that people could see around the world in seconds.

That was, there was even a possibility, it felt like star Trek. So I do what I do cause I was one of those kids. I just had this creative perspective, I drew on the margins of my paper until I'd had a teacher that really should've taught me that these are words I have now.

I didn't, we didn't have these words back then I was a visual learner. And then I saw things and pictures and concepts and colors, and, everyone here does and we'll have different, we all have different areas of specialty. And so for me, I think that my best answer to that question is I would have to be doing something in the creative field and I'm interested in doing maybe something different or more adding to what we do now, just because, I'm almost 50 and some of the things that used to really get me excited I like doing, but they don't bring this.

I dunno for lack of a better term soul food or enrichment or satisfaction or whatever the right term is. So what I really love doing now is I love working with my teammates who are younger in the profession and helping them, see things differently and also learn. It's great. It's sometimes there are so many lessons to be learned in working with someone who doesn't know what they don't know, and it reminds you of a couple of things.

Wow. I actually know a few things and two, wow. I still have so much to learn. And I'm just one of those people that, that invigorates me versus freaks me out. Oh, good. 

Jamie: I was going to say, I think that I had that same moment. It's a weird moment. Maybe you guys, maybe we can just divert for a minute, come right back to that.

But I feel like when I was managing the intern program at my old company, they put me in charge of the intern program and it, and all of a sudden I really realized. These college kids were dependent on me for information and for organization and for showing them, something. And all of a sudden I realized.

One, I'm not the kid anymore. So they're looking to me for a lot of information that I was just like, oh, I'm not sure. But then, like you said, I'll get asked the question and I'll just start talking about it and I'll be like, oh, I do know all of that. It's in there, somewhere, but that's a weird moment when you transitioned from being the mentee to the mentor it's a wild moment where you realize people are, looking to you for something.

Von: Yeah, what's interesting is Justin had no idea you had even thought about any of that kind of stuff. This goes back about five years ago, I was told, like Stefan, like I'm thinking of a complete shift and the shift was to try to get into art direction for the film industry. And there's one person inside Hollywood runs this company out of Burbank his name, he's a director, his name's Phil Cooke.

I follow him on Instagram and he let me call him and talk to him and pick his brain about doing that. And he gave me some good feedback in terms of he didn't think it was a good movie. And that's not really what I wanted to hear at the time, but it's what I needed to hear because he made some good points and I'm glad I didn't make them move, but you might want to check out his, he has a lot of good quotes.

He's a good thinker, but he also does a lot of films. I first met him years ago when they hired me to do a logotype for a production they were working on. 

Justin: I love that, Von, we actually did talk about this. We were doing a film. Yeah. We did a film together in Africa. You were there. 

Von: I remember doing that. We were talking about your thing, but we were just, I was just saying that really energized me and what I couldn't discern at the time was it was energized because I was in Africa is energized because we were doing work to benefit others. Or was it the film or was it all the above?

And to me now, I know it's all. But I remember. Stephan Luma, you and he and I were talking I think we're actually, we're at a Film Fest or whatever. And you were telling us about this great position of designers who designed products for shows like props for shows and stuff that, that this is the conversation, you, you had with. Yeah, and it was awesome. And I thought, wow. 

And funny ever since you've told me that, by the way, just as a side note, when I watch you see it a lot in Marvel, especially the MCU, but when you watch these shows even period pieces and. Yeah, I'm watching 1883 right now. And I'm thinking, wow, those labels in that store, like some designer, put just passion and love and for something that may never be seen.

And I don't know, there's something wonderfully romantic about that. So I, you inspired me when he told me that. I think that you would be amazing at that just as this.

Von: Years ago, I stopped doing it years ago, but every year I would go to the Pixar site and see if they add any positions. Then I applied for it.

A friend of mine, who I used to work with years ago here in Oregon, he worked for ILM for eight years. And so he knew, I forget the director, something green is his last name. He did the bug's life anyway. He connected me with him and the guy emailed me and said, Hey, go to a Pixar, apply for this job.

And I was like, okay, that's really not an endorsement or whatever, but I didn't really take it seriously. Then, two days later I got an email from him. I've been waiting for your application to come through and I'm like, oh shit. And so I spent like the whole day filling out. It's like this long thing. And then it went through and basically a dear John letter-type reply back.

But yeah, it's, I've always, I always thought, and it was a perfect job. It was for a production designer. That doesn't mean the same in film, that's Like Justin said, it's like helping sell the narrative of whatever the shot is they're doing in this case, the store he referred to. But there are a couple people.

I met a guy a few years back who does production design for film. And he was really fun to talk to. It, it is interesting and I'm always picking up on it in production. Especially if it's a cockpit. It irritates me when they found it. And it just like I've done captures of the screen and it just says coffee, like really get a little creative, 

Jamie: great job 

Karen: but you need to just do so many other pet projects, you should start creating graphics that will apply to all of that.

There's all the graphics that are done for a while. I'm like Hotel Budapest, and I'm not going to remember the name of the roster. And then the new, I don't know if you guys have seen, but the newest Wes Anderson. Oh my God. It is gorgeous. It is an art director, a designer's a dream., I think that if you show people what you can do.

Justin: Then they'll come. That's the additive on here it is. Here's your next social campaign. So snag those screenshots and then Photoshop and your idea that would, people would love that. That would be great. And then go ahead and send. The residual check to Jamie, Karen, and I for giving you that great idea.

Von: Justin, you're the one that I first met through Scott Hull, my art rep, and Scott is friends with J. Todd Anderson, who was the storyboard artist for the Cohen Brothers or his storyboard artists for pretty much all their productions going back to Raising Arizona.

Justin: And by the way, which I still think is one of the best films ever, keep going. 

Von: So when I was in Ohio, visiting Scott he coordinated a dinner where J. Todd showed up and he agreed to bring his storyboard book for The Big Lebowski. So I got to go through that and I traded him a poster for a page out of that book.

Karen: So one of the original like The Dude sketches, 

Justin: put that on screen, flex on us right now. 

Karen: We’re going to have to put that on The Creative Shit Show website. That would be great. Justin, I have a question for you. If you were, what type of actor and what, and or director, what type of work would you want to do?

Justin: That’s a great question. They're different. My daughter is, I have four kids as you guys know, but for those listeners, I know I have four kids and my youngest is a sophomore in high school, and she just started watching Yellowstone because my wife and I are really into it. And the cinematography on that show.

And even Wes Anderson films. Like it's just gorgeous, right? 

Karen: Tornado scene. 

Justin: Oh yeah. Yeah. It's visionary. It's so great. And. What's interesting to me is just the, right now that we just talked about it, that surge of adrenaline that I got, and just the excitement around that, I feel that's something that I want to.

Leaning more to we do some videos and stuff for Rule29. And, I enjoy that, the corporate videos, it's not like we're and I know we're telling narratives and we try to make them as cinematic as possible. We should. It's different. I want to experience that differences because I've only ever done documentaries and those are fun.

But so something that was either in nature And beautiful or something that you created in a world, like an environment, like a Wes Anderson type situation. I know those are really special and very specific. And then I don't know. I like all forms of film, but I really enjoy shows that are funny but also have, like dramadies right.

That, there's a story behind them. They're also funny. I don't know. That'd be fun to, to be a part of that in some way, but I just wonder, do they want a quick Jamie? Did we didn't get what year we didn't get to her, but yeah, we'd love to, 

Jamie: so for me it kinda goes back just a little bit because I was actually, you were saying you were talking to your kids about, your career or what you wanted to do.

And my son's 16 now, and he's getting more interested in learning more about my past life. What I did before he came around and I, and he said he was looking at colleges. So he said, what did you study in college? And I'd said I actually went into college thinking I was going to be a.

And he laughed like the loudest laugh ever. And it affirmed that I made the right choice, not becoming a teacher. Cause I, I said why are you laughing? He said you are not patient. There's just no way, and so I do love mentoring people that's not teaching, so I said, okay, I'm gonna switch my major. Once I realized I didn't want to be a teacher. And I ended up in marketing communications because my advisor told me you get to talk for a living. So I actually was like, this is made for me. Notes home from school since I was like five, since kindergarten talks too much to the point where my mom was like, I'm not coming in for a parent-teacher conference because she talks too much.

She's five, she said get over it, it still goes on today, and especially just, anyway, so learning that I can make it a living. Talking was like, the icing on the cake for me. And then I took, a reroute through retail, which I loved working as a a store manager and traveling in district manager for Bath and Body Works for years and years.

And then I started at Neenah Paper company. And just wanted to make a big change once I had my son, and they stuck me in a marcomm role that they didn't have. They created the position and it was just love at first sight. I loved it. I loved everything about it. And so that's my roundabout story. 

Karen: All of us because of that, you met everyone here.

Justin: I was today years old. When I found out about your job before. 

Jamie: Yeah. Yeah. I was a retail manager for a long time. I loved it. I sold bubble bath. How bad can that be? People come in having a bad day looking for some like bubble bath and you're like, I can help you with that. And I was so good at it. 

Justin: I’m going to share with you guys a fun fact. Do you know that Vaughn loves bubble baths Von, how often do you take a bubble? 

Jamie: Are you kidding? You're being serious? 

Von: Yeah. It's like I'd much rather take a shower.

Jamie: You know what it is? It's just, we call it in my house. Affectionately fart water. Cause you are literally sitting in filth.

Justin: Come on Vonnie, you like a good bath bomb. 

Von: I would love to replace our bathtub we have with a jacuzzi tub, then I'd be okay with it. 

Jamie: Then you're just stirring up. 

Justin: There it is. That's true. 

Karen: Oh, my God

Justin: don’t blame me. Jamie brought it up. 

Karen: Yeah. 

Jamie: No, bubble bath is good. There's a market for everything. Once I realized you could hone a pitch, like seriously, I got really good at it. And you're just like trying to help them out. And next thing you're talking about your life and then they buy like a hundred dollars worth of bubble bath and lotion and they leave and they're happy.

And then they come back and they want to see you. And I don't know, it's when I realized have you hone your pitch and you get that down? I didn't even know I was doing marketing. Do you know what I mean? At that time, I didn't even think about it. But I think back to that time, a lot. You know the difference between what we did, what I was doing there, and what I'm doing now is, that people were coming into the store.

So they were like a captive audience, right? So they come into the store, they're looking for something, they need something, they want something and then I get it to them. But now it's you got to go out and seek those people. So it's harder, but I think that my background, it helps me try to refine think through what I'm doing.

Karen: So as far as your why aside from the fact that you could talk, you took this job without knowing probably really what the industry was, how long did it take you to learn that you loved the industry, or did it take you awhile? 

Jamie: It was probably about six months in, Neenah is a special place. Honestly, it still holds a special place in my heart.

I still keep up with the people there. I love the culture there. I still talk to people there, but I was talking about. And so I talked to them, constantly, I love working with them. 

Von:  I didn't realize, that when your mom passed was when you made that transition to working for yourself.

Jamie: And I think it's just like those big life moments put everything in perspective for you. So I was there for a dozen years. I love my job. And then one day I didn't love it anymore and it wasn't them. It was me. It was totally me, and I think. I love marketing. I love doing this, but I don't want to do it like this.

And I'm not, I'm doing a disservice to the coworkers that I have, and the company that I love because I was, I just couldn't focus. I couldn't concentrate and I couldn't give my best, so I don't want to do anything. I, if I don't want to sign my name to it and I'm not going to do it like I need to be able to feel comfortable.

So I made that switch. 

Karen: Always personally, there's always those big life moments that make you want to make decisions. And it was obvious that your mom's illness and then ultimately her death really triggered that. 

Jamie: She was going to go, and she was going to leave, I felt like it needed to be bigger, I needed to go and do something bigger.

So I told Von, I went into Alzheimer's advocacy in her honor, and then it just became, they needed my help. I started doing marketing with them and then I thought I can actually maybe do this for myself. And I started working with SCAD and other people and it just became something.

I don't know it's been a journey. I just allowed myself now to be freer, to follow things than I ever had in my, I used to plan everything, and think things through. And now it's just one day at a time, I just want to do what I'm doing, but I love what I'm doing now.

I love it. I still get to do all the things I get to do before, but now I get to sit over here and look into Neenah from the outside and it's perfect. It works for everybody right now. And they've got somebody there that they can work with day in and day out. And then they've got me when they need me.

Karen: So Justin, you had asked me what else I would do if I wasn't doing what I was doing, 

Justin: I want to know. So when I was a kid, I always said I'm either going to be a commercial artist because they didn't have graphic designers. That wasn't a fun term back then really? Or I was going to be a stewardess. Because I wanted to travel and I got airsick, so that was not going to work.

But my grandmother on my dad's side, she knew a commercial artist and she would send me the stats all the time. And stats like photostats.

I don't mean like statistics. And she would send me the stats at these illustrators. And I'm like, this is cool. So that's where it was like, I just didn't, it was a given, I guess, but as I've gotten older, I have done some teaching, and I like that. I like teaching adults, and I plan on doing more of that probably through online stuff, but I've also nursing is it's not ever going to happen, but I think I would have been a good nurse.

I have played nurse, so I know. 

Jamie: And there are two new things. I just, I heard flight attendant and I just, my mind is blown and I have, I've played caregiver.

Karen: I’ve played the role of a caregiver to multiple people in my life over multiple years. And it's just a natural, if anything, it might not be a nurse, but, maybe an advocate, healthcare ads.

Jamie: And you're strong. That's what they need is somebody there to be strong, like you are, we've discussed that I'm really good at it and get it. 

Karen: And I actually, there's no weirdness about walking into a hospital for me. I’m very comfortable. And I could see myself doing that someday. But I don't know. We'll see. I, right now I have enough of that within the family. So I have a full-time job within the family for that. 

Justin: I think what's interesting about this conversation is that, we all get to see each other. Haven't been able to see each other, our conferences, primary, the how conference.

And I'd be willing to bet that almost every time we're around the table, breaking bread or having a drink, whatever else someone is talking about doing something else. Because I think one of the things that I was excited about the show is just to talk about some realities, that we all have.

And I think. In our business, at least speaking, from my perspective, we put so much of us into the work. And I don't know if you guys relate to this at all. And although we're older and don't take it as personal as we did when we were probably. It still takes a toll. At least it feels like that way to me.

And, depending on if you're on a good season of, with the great client space or not unfortunately at least right now that feels to really add to her. Is that my energy? Does this land with any of you guys at all? 

Karen: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Especially the fact that you said if you're on a high.

The highs are amazing, but if you're on a low with a client, which I have been and you can feel it going, it's a slow low usually, and you're not sure when, and if it's going to end and you have to usually make a decision as to how it's going to end, but it's never.  I can say for all four of us, put our heart and soul into our work and delivering for clients.

And when it's not going right, it's shit. I don't know how else you can feel it. It's a mind game. We play mind games with ourselves. We, we start playing the, am I not worthy? Do we hit syndrome? It's everything. Even, even though we've been doing this forever, we all experienced that.

Right now, I feel like I'm on a high on things. So I get more optimistic 

Justin: You just have a curiosity. 

Karen: I really cannot believe that I've been doing this for 40 years and I don't want to stop now, granted the fact that I'm doing different stuff.  We have to challenge ourselves daily, weekly, yearly, and like last year, as you all know, I did Procreate, for LinkedIn, which was huge for me. Didn't, it was a huge challenge and I did it, and now it's going great.

And I want to do more of that. So it's just reinventing constantly. We have a chance as self-employed people to reinvent, nobody is telling us what we can and can't do. 

Von: The reinvention part, I think a big thing. I have been creating content for start off with Lynda and now LinkedIn since 2011. And so I have a booth and I was just thinking at the end of last year, beginning of this year, I have a pretty good resource. I can access same time. I want, maybe I should use it for other things and just develop content for LinkedIn.

So I've set up an account with Amazon audio and I'm  Looking at people who need dictation and stuff done and figuring I have a recording set up, I might as well try that. And then just so I've actually submitted a few things so far. You download their script and then you have to read it and then.

They make a decision if you're somebody they'll consider for that. 

Jamie: Karen and I literally just did this for a client. It was through like Audio Jungle. I think it was. That's so crazy hearing some of the different ways that we need over one lady. She sounded like a complete, like AI, it sounded like a robot.

It was a real person, but there was like no way. 

Justin: Von, do you have a, do you have radio of voice? This is my radio podcast, Justin's voice.

Von: no, it depends. Like the thing, I read for was like, came from a fantasy novel of sorts. And it had a fake language. So I had to speak it. 

Jamie: You need to do it here. I'll do it. I'll pay you money. Just a little snippet.

Von: I don't even remember how I pulled it off. I just said it. 

Jamie: just send over the recording. 

Von: I can do that one cartoon character, 

Jamie: You would be the best cartoon character to me. Like you could read for animation. And it would be amazing. 

Von: Or star wars. 

Jamie: I bet you do. Let's hear.

Von: I’m not going to do any more than that. 

Justin: The internet, or by the way, I need to get that clip because that's going to be my ringtone. When you call me now, just over and over again, 

Von (in cartoon voice): Excuse me.

Jamie: I love it so much. It's exactly what I thought. This to me guys, this was such a good conversation because.

I know every time I get together, I learned something new about you. And that's like the true value of friendship to me is just, that you can always keep going back to the table, like you said, and finding out new things about each other, it's not boring. It's never boring with you guys. And I love that and appreciate you sharing your thoughts on careers and where we think we can go with it.

I think there's still so much more conversation to be had, but we get we're running out of time.

Justin: I love it. And I just say for me, I will walk away today feeling not alone in the fact that sometimes we feel great about our job, but sometimes like we don't and we start dreaming about the things that we wish we could do.

So Karen and I are going to go to flight attendant school and we'll go from there.

Jamie: Good takeaway. Von do you have a takeaway? 

Von: I learned something new about each of you that I didn't know before today, so that's pretty cool. 

Jamie: Yeah. Perfect. 

Justin: Thanks, guys. 

Co-Hosts Justin Ahrens, Karen Larson, Von Glitschka, and Jamie Saunders open the door for a peek inside the creative shit show that is our life. We love what we do, but it’s not always perfect. In our inaugural episode of the Creative Shit Show, we talk through everything from nightmare clients and entrepreneurial challenges to what we should name our signature Shit Show cocktail. Grab a drink and have a listen.

SHOW NOTES: 

Von’s ‘Just Peachy’ Cocktail: 6 oz. all-natural peach nectar, 2 shots of bourbon of your choice, pour over crushed ice, stir and enjoy. (He prefers Maker’s Mark)

Ivy Malik, Sales Coach for Creatives: Instagram account: @ivymalikofficial

Zootopia Sloth Scene: https://youtu.be/4aUC1VZQE1E

ROUGH TRANSCRIPT:

THE CREATIVE SHIT SHOW
EPISODE 1: WELCOME TO THE CREATIVE SHIT SHOW

Justin: Y'all we're here. This is our first episode. Now we've talked about this, how many months this has been us just joking around. It's been more than months, right? Is it about a year? 

Karen: More than a year? Yeah, we've been talking about it for a while 

Justin: And we're all different parts of the country. And through the magic of zoom we're here together. I'm excited to start this journey with you all. Yeah, Friday afternoon, pre cocktail hour. That's how disciplined we are or I don't know, Von. Oh, Karen's drinking. 

Von: This is a peach nectar with a little Maker's Mark in it.

Justin: I'm not the only one that's not drinking right? 

Jamie: No, I'm not. I got my energy. 

Justin: Yeah. And I have my water with supplements on it because I'm hydrating

Jamie: The next show we need to do a better job coordinating.

Justin: Yeah, that's great. I think this is pretty much, I don't know about you guys, but how my brain is on a Friday by the time I get to. Three o'clock is probably gracious by the time I get to noon or one I'm done. Ready to turn it in, especially the last two years. How do you guys feel on a Friday afternoon?

Jamie: Yeah, probably about the same, I think. I don't like to do meetings after you know about one o'clock on Fridays. I can't think anymore. I need time. Down time, administration time, wrap up. 

Karen: I'm usually a little wound-up because it's the weekend. I'm almost like an employee. I am so ready, but like today I had meetings back to back from eight o'clock this morning, but I think because the first one went so well and so smooth that it just kicked off the day.

Von: I'm just trying to get back to feeling normal. So I got COVID over the weekend

Justin: yeah. Oh dear. I was about ready to start making fun of you. And now you have to kick off the show that you have COVID. 

Von: No I’m at the end. But it only hit me pretty bad the first day. And then I was starting to feel normal the second day.

Justin: It's just for what it's worth you look, devilishly handsome. Just see. 

Karen: He does look good. 

Justin: By the way for everyone at home. I don't know if this Von found this on Tik TOK, if you want to reduce the effects of COVID have a Maker's Mark.

I forgot that one. Hey, before we get too much farther,  why don't we share with everyone who the heck we are right in we're all over the country and, in different stages of our careers. I'm Justin Ahrens. This is my 22nd year of owning rule 29, and we are a branding agency outside of Chicago.

We also have an office in Omaha and a couple of other teammates in California. And, we are in the brand space, a brand strategy and brand creation, management, et cetera. And I would say for the most part, I still very much. But I have to say I don't love it every day if I was to be honest.

And the last two years have absolutely been challenging from every level you can imagine personally, team-wise navigation. That's probably not anything new for anyone listening or for you guys, but yeah, I'm excited to be here with you. So who wants to jump. 

Jamie: I got it. I'm Jamie Saunders.

I'm the co-founder of clear brand strategy along with Karen Larson. Who is also on the show. I have just a little bit of a different story. I actually was in corporate marketing for almost 15 years, and I liked to say that I retired in 2017 from corporate life after my mom passed away at a really young age I always wanted to start my own business and start working for myself.

When you get that perspective, that life is short, it makes everything kind of accelerate. I went ahead and made that dream a reality. I love working independently. I think one of the most fun things about it is that my corporate background informed me. My current client relationships, because we tend to drift towards working with corporate clients.

Having sat in their chair, I really do love commiserating with them. And it does help me, I think, to understand what they're going through every day because corporate marketing is a shit show in and of itself. And every organization is the same. No matter who you talk to.

It's probably one of my most favorite things to do is just help corporate marketers. Cause I know what it feels like to sit in that chair and just feel stuck, 

Justin: so I love that. I love that. We get to hear that perspective, both being on the client-side. The creative partner side. So that's awesome.

Jamie: That's fun. It's not every day I have to work with Karen. 

Justin: at least none of us have to work with Von on a regular basis. Oh, I'm sorry. Von, were you going to say something? 

Von: Eh, I'll let Karen go.

Karen: I've been an independent designer for 30 years, but have been in the business for 40 years, can't even believe I'm saying that.  I've worked with corporate clients for years, so I've always been on the other side of the desk from Jamie 

so I love getting my head around nice big projects, really breaking it down and helping the client to create a real clear strategy and beautiful design, beautiful content. Yeah, that's what I do. And I also, I am passionate about making art and I love drawing, I love painting.

And so there's a whole mix of that. 

Von: My business turns 20 this month. For the last five years, my daughter, Savannah, my oldest daughter has been working with me, although she's on hiatus right now with tendonitis since October. So she's still struggling with that.

But most of the work we do is in a branding context. Usually, it's working with either our own clients or. Agencies will hire us. We're working with one agency right now branding their client. I liked that. I like being able to meet other creatives and develop solutions or explorations to solve their client's problems.

That's usually the context I'm working in. It's fun. Like Justin, there are some days that are better than other days. So I try to keep it positive. It's been hard this week, just because even though I was feeling somewhat normal, I didn't feel like working. I'd rather just go lay down and sleep, but 

Jamie: Yeah, I understand.

Justin: That's the worst Von. Let's also be honest. How many times, if you and I called each other or text each other, maybe in the last two years saying we want to do something different. Let's be honest. How many times? 

Von: How many times have we done that? More times than I can count. 

Justin: Can you guys, do you feel that way sometimes or what.

Karen: I want to chime in because I felt exactly the same way a couple of years ago. Even though I was self-employed for so long, I took a job with a client and it turned into a shit show. It was biggest mistake. I can honestly say I like in my career it was, I'm not an employee.

I'm a consultant. And then when you take a job as an employee, you turn into an employee. It doesn't work. So I was in a place where I was, it took me probably two years to figure it out. I knew I wanted to do what I was doing, because what else am I going to do this? I love what I do. But then I partnered with Jamie and that was the catalyst of oh my God, this is fun.

Again. It's probably the most fun I've had. In my career and I'm going to be 60 this year and that's saying something and I'm not going to go anywhere. So it's exciting. So I think there's, that's a big discussion I think we'll end up having is what are those catalysts to get us out of that shit show mode.

Because it's still a shit show working with Jamie sometimes, but it's more fun. 

Jamie: my texts are what she's talking about. Just let's be clear. But like Von, you were 

Karen: Von, you were just mentioning how much you enjoy working with the agency. It's probably because you're collaborating with somebody outside of your bubble.

Von: Yeah. They're having to manage the client. So if a client gets unreasonable deal with it, that's probably the area that I need to get better at is well sales and just managing expectations. I do as much as I can to give them a heads up on what to expect, but. I just have very little patience for people who.

Yeah I'm not going to get into anything here. I don't want to name names, but, it's probably frustrating at times.

Jamie: you can tell your clients to listen to our show. 

Justin: Yeah. Yeah. Vaughn will solve all your problems will get you fired from every single project and then you won't have to worry about it 

Jamie: and then you can rest.

Justin: I think Karen, to your point, There are degrees of shit, showing us right in our business and our careers. It's never going to go away, obviously, you know how you approach it, how you prepare yourself, your perspective on that, and everything. But I love your perspective on the fact that I think in a lot of ways, you.

I've already been exactly where Yvonne and I are. And make some shifts. And you're in this pardon me? This is a compliment. I know what this is to come off. I can only imagine…

You're in the, you're in the second phase of your career, right? Like you're in the next chapter of your career.

Karen: With my age, I'd most people would be in the final chapter of their career, thinking about retirement. 

Justin: So 

Karen: I guess you can use that. 

Justin: Yeah. I can kinda, I guess I could either use that term. I just feel like any shift or new beginning and that's what it is.

Whether it's, you don't know if it's fine. All right. You could be doing something else in a few years. You could be a famous podcast if you're in a few weeks, so that's right. That's right, so what are some of the, yeah, what are some of the current, I don't know, frustrations, challenges, successes that are surrounding, y'all right now.

Jamie: If we're talking about, shifts and trying to get out of like ruts a little bit, I think obviously everybody for the last couple of years has been going through a rut. It's been challenging being apart from everybody. And it's great to have technology like zoom.

I know other ways that you can communicate, but I think one of the things I'm really struggling with is just being away from people. I spent 15 years in an office being surrounded by people, being able to go down the hall and talk to people. And my husband would say, get my word quota out for the day.

But I find. I have to find ways to interact and get up and move around, or else I just find myself sitting at my desk for hours and hours on end. And I can't be good for you, so I think for me, the challenge now is integrating back in to society and planning meetings with clients just, and we just talked about this the other day, just getting back over to see clients and figuring out what everybody's comfort level is with.

Is going to be big for me going forward, but I miss being with people. I think I'm just, I really got to figure out a way to start integrating back into society. 

Justin: I totally can. I feel that Jamie, for sure. And I think I'm really grateful for zoom. The fact that I get to see you, lovely people, right? Otherwise. We wouldn't be seeing each other. We would be texting each other. And what do you, how do you feel about things?

Von: I never, I heard they ever did video conferencing before COVID. Broke out. I don't mind it at times it can be surprisingly productive and other times I'm like, it would have been faster just to put this in an email and get it over with, but what I've been struggling with for the last few months or so is just, on one client, the exact same process, I'll use two.

In this case explorations forum, is the same process as with another client I'm working on now. But the previous client like just nothing would be, he just hated everything and he didn't make any sense with his feedback. Derogatory in some sense. And so now moving with a different client, I'm working with I find I'm a little gun shy at times, like okay.

Or they going to hate everything now. So it's and then hearing back from him, he's going, wow, there's a lot of good choices here. It's like the exact same process. I didn't change anything. It's just it's I guess I just expected it. People should be able to recognize the same thing from one client to another.

And they don't. And that's part of my problem, is expecting that. But so I play a lot of head games with myself. If somebody doesn't like something, I take that personally, especially if I think I've provided them with some options. I thought her pretty good, so that's what. Usually, I've had the Savannah to bounce stuff off of now for five years, it's changed the way I work because she's able to look at stuff and give me feedback that otherwise I would have never really heard before. And at first, that was hard to get used to, but now I've depended on it.

Now she's been out of commission since October, so it's a little harder. I feel like I'm going back to the way I used to work, but it seems like I'm not having as much success as I used to. Cause I had quite a few recent clients who are just, I don't know, problem clients and I need to get better at vetting them.

Like I, this last one I'm thinking of, I knew he was going to be a problem client. I just convinced myself that I could get beyond that and it didn't really work out that way. So 

Karen: It's that shit show red flag

Jamie: Yeah. Where are the red flags? 

Karen: Yeah. So it's that it is that I think we all have to think about what that what's that red flag, those red flight clients we've been in the business long enough to.

To know that we probably shouldn't go there and it's okay to say no, but 

Jamie: sometimes, you don't know till you're like knee-deep in it. And then all of a sudden you're like, he thought everything was going along smoothly. And all of a sudden you turn in some work to the client, and it's just, it's to me it gets, a surprise, and all of a sudden you're like, oh no, I don't think we're vibing.

Karen: Yea, like I don't think this is gonna work. 

And then you're stuck. Justin what's been going on in your world? 

Justin: We're starting to have. People will come back a little bit to the office. We've been fully working from home since March 13th, however long ago. That was two years ago. Yeah. It's crazy to think of that. Isn't it? 

Jamie: Yeah. St. Patrick's day. 

Justin: Yeah. And I have a mixture of my team. Who's looking forward to it indifferent, I think, and then not super happy about it.

And. I feel it's worth us investing time. W will never be full-time back in the office, we'll be hybrid. I like being flexible like that for sure. And I wouldn't have realized how much I've enjoyed it until I was forced to do it. So that's one of the silver linings, I think, of the last two years.

But, just trying to understand from a leadership standpoint, how to do it and include everyone as much as possible, to be as respectful and clear in communication. And it's just, it's something that keeps me up at night to make sure that we do the right thing.

I don't want to lose a great employee because of something I've communicated poorly. I'm not saying I would, I think about that. So that's, there's that, and then, it just, things have been just a lot more competitive lately. It feels. We've lost some projects. I thought we'd win for sure.

And then we've won some that I thought we had no chance on. And yeah, so those are the kinds of things we're wrestling and maybe that's not much different than normal, but it just feels, I'm not gonna say everything. Certain things feel a lot heavier now than I think maybe they, they should or I want them to be.

But Karen, you said something earlier. I'd love to ask. What are some of the signs you talked about? We all know the red flags, but what are some of the ways that you process them, like when that red flag kind of pops up metaphorically? What are some of those things that you're like no way or yes way or what are some of those things for you?

Karen: I think a lot of the things it's such a gut feeling for me. It's do I want to work with this person is the first question. Is this somebody that I really want to work with personally? Do I get along with them? Do I, am I doing it for the money? These are all questions that I ask myself. Most of.

Most of the clients that Jamie and I are looking at are, or prospects or people that we want for the long haul, and they're not just a one-off, it's more of, we're going to be your corporate marketing department type of relationship. And when you do that, you have to make sure that. It's you get to know the person a little bit.

And for me, if I start feeling I don't know about this person, I can tell this is going to be a shit show, then it just is I start I that right there, I can. And I'm pretty good at reading people, there's also, are they complaining about money? Are they complaining about the budget early on?

And or are they not even complaining? Are they just I don't know how much money I really want to spend on this. Or, you just, I think after so much time, you just get the sense of maybe they're not the right people. But then I think that there's also is this the type of company that I want to work for.

Do I want to help them succeed? Do I want to help them make money? And if anything, I've walked away from clients famous for firing clients. If I have to because I decide. While the relationship was great to start for three or four years, then things have changed. People have changed within the work, the company that I'm working with.

And I'm like, and I don't know if I want to keep making, helping these people make money, and I'll walk away and I'll walk away. Because there's always going to be another client. Always, especially right now, there's this crazy amount of work, but Jamie and I've been talking a lot lately about, how much do we charge?

And this is a future discussion and hopefully, it's a discussion, maybe we do it on our next episode possibly the next couple, What are people charging? What are companies charging? Cause there are the big agencies and there's a small agency and it's really confusing. I know for being in the business for so long, you used to be able to charge a heck of a lot more than you can.

Now, at least that's how I feel. And I'd love to have a discussion about that. So if anything, going back to the original question. In the pre-question too, you asked me about red flags. I think, for me, the biggest question is it's the money question. I'm doing tons of work, but am I charging enough?

That's the question I have in my head, and I think I'm doing okay compared to, not enough people saying no. 

Justin: So how many times do you feel like you feel your guts pretty, tuned in these days? Do you know if you were to if four clients were to come to you, do you think one would slip past ya?

Karen: I'm pretty good. I think after all this time, I really out, I really. And I, in fact, the one thing about. This whole zoom thing is that you really can't build that type of relationship. And there's a current client that I have that at first, I thought, oh, he's a pain in the butt. And he wasn't really my client.

He's an extension of somebody else that brought me in, but I'm working more and more with him, and it's not Jamie's client. It's somebody else. And the more we get to know him, The better it's going. So it's we're having just that hard time. And I say, we, I think as everyone is having a hard time building that relationship quicker.

And so I think honestly, probably because of zoom, I will say it is a little bit harder. Like I can go into somebody's office and I can mean you guys have all known me for us. I can be a little bit of a smart ass if I have to, or, and I can tell, I know what, huh, but I can tell if somebody is going to laugh at that or it's going to work.

If they're going to be, if they're going to accept the way I am, it's going to work. And I'm extremely professional when it comes to working, but I'm also good. Call you out a little bit. If you're causing a shit show too. It's really interesting. What do you think Jamie? Cause you've been working with me now for a year.

Jamie: I think what's really interesting is, that Karen and I each have our own little side gigs, so we don't always work on every project together. Although we are doing, we've made a concerted effort now to say, we work better as a team. It's better when we're together, we can bounce things off each other to your point, Von.

Having the preview with somebody internal before you send it to the client is a game-changer. I feel a lot less anxious about work. Karen is very good at negotiating contracts and things. I think I'm getting better at it. But I think what's cool is we're different people. We really are.

We're completely different. Could be even like polar opposites, but then we do things like today where we thought a call was at two o'clock and we both signed on to zoom at one 30 for you. We're both like we're talking and then we're like our, meeting's not till two. Why are we both here? It was like the weirdest thing ever, but so like sometimes we're like, so in sync, but what's cool is. 

Karen might have red flags or reservations about a client. And I actually really liked them and we get along really well. And so we just make a decision or vice versa, I'll be like, I don't really think that person really is vibing with me. I might be too much for them. I can be too much.

I know I can. It's like good to own it. And so you just say, Hey, do you mind stepping in and doing the project management on this one, you should be the account lead. And I like having the flexibility cause we both trust each other enough to say, I don't want to work directly with this person.

I think they liked my work, but me and my personality is just not working, and we've done it a couple of times and it doesn't. Being just fine. 

Karen: It's so true. Like I'm super detail-oriented. I go in and I break down the concept and sometimes Jamie's just like I don't know what the hell he's talking about. I can't figure this out.

I'm like, let me just talk to them 

Jamie: And then spreadsheets...  

Karen: then there's oh my God, this person's driving me crazy. I'm saying it. And she's Oh, I can talk to them. No problem. 

Jamie: I love that I'll call her, and it's whatever. And we just, I dunno, it's nice to have that. I missed that about having direct reports, to be able to pass off work and work with other people.

And, I don't know how you feel about the Justin, but it's nice to have people that you can at your office that you can say, Hey, you know what? Do you mind taking this client? Talking to this client, because it might not be your favorite thing.

Karen: But I will say before you answer that, Justin, one of the nice things about being solo for so long and finding a partner is that we're equal partners in the level in our career.

We're not like, it's not like we're a junior or somebody is a junior. Does that make sense? Yeah okay. 

Justin: now really I really, yeah, I really admire, Karen and Von for I don't admire you yet, Jamie, but I really admire Karen and Von for being on their own for so long, because I think.

I have the opportunity on occasion to delegate or collaborate with some of my teammates. Obviously, there are things that are uniquely mine to own, and I need to own those and do that. And I seem to like those items more and more, but Von, I know specifically for you, we've talked about the fact that, If I was to describe you in some ways you're just a, you're just a craftsman out of the people I know in this world.

You're just, you're so dedicated to the perfection of drawing and how you apply that to illustrator. And again, for anybody not following Von Twitter do right now, especially when he rants on Adobe, it makes me so happy. When you get super, Eyore, Von is what I call you. It's let's I love that, but I know in the past you've just had.

Hard, clients' interactions or chasing money or whatever else. How does that impact you? Is that something that just totally zaps your energy and makes you be like, ah, or how do you like re you know, recalibrate after that?

Von: Puts me in a funk for three or four days where I just feel like

 what do they call that imposter syndrome? Now, hold on. I did a course on logo design, but here I can't handle a client who is it's like, why should anybody watch my course? It's that kind of thought.

Karen: I'm shocked. The audience that listens to this is going to be shocked at hearing you talk like that because, in the creative world, you are an illustrator designer.

God. And I can say I've known you forever, it's so to hear your openness and about, and being, so what's the word I'm looking for vulnerable. Thank you. I think it's wonderful because we all feel that, we all. And I questioned the same thing. How can you be in the business for this long and then question yourself and be, have that imposter syndrome?

It's crazy. 

Von: Yeah. I think it's pretty normal though. I was listening to, I can't remember. I can't remember her name. I follow her on Instagram. She's a sales expert and a business consultant, and she is making the comment that every single creative she's ever consulted with. And they talked about pricing.

Every single creative she's talked to is pricing themselves too well. And she, you know what she said in some of the examples she gave, it made me realize Pretty sure. Like I would fall into that same camp. I don't consider myself super great in terms of one just sales, just connecting with people and landing a project, let alone I always think about, okay, how much am I going to, am I going to charge for this?

And a lot of times what I do is. I try to understand how big the company is like on the project I'm working on. Now, I did some research on who the company is and who else is in the industry. And luckily on some of those things, you can find annual reports that show their finances.

And so that's what I did on one of these clients is I found. Through their own financial records, how much they make. And that made it easy for me to go this is, if they can't spend this much money on an identity, then they're not even worth working for, and they didn't even blink. That's so that's great.

You can't always do that. But, and then there's the problem client, I was referencing earlier. That was the opposite where I'm like I'll help them out. And I'll give him a price of what I normally would. That didn't help. He still didn't like anything, even though, so I would rather.

I knew I, I totally had the red flag, earmarks were apparent that, okay, this guy is going to be an issue to work with. I should've just said, you know what? I'm like thanks, but no, thanks. And just walk away and focus on a couple of clients I'm working with right now, they're the kind of clients I love working with them.

They're eager. They don't get annoyed when you start asking them all these questions, just to understand their client better. Like they gave me a creative brief. And so I figured, okay, an agency, I'll get all those questions I need. It wasn't super complete. So I followed it up with four questions and asked him, could you ask them these?

And they had no problem with that. And they're like, oh, that's actually a good, those are good questions. And so working with clients like that, who, they, they don't mind. Struggling through a few things, knowing that by doing it, it's going to make everything better. It's I just need to really get better at not trying to convince myself rather than just be honest that I don't think this is as much as I wouldn't mind having the project.

I just don't think it's a good fit. 

Justin: And I think you outlined that really the point of the show, right? So Karen, your point, like Von with your experience and roster of great work, to think that you would have some of those challenges to some may just seem that crazy, but in some ways, I feel. Refreshing right.

Because, and the reality, if we're all honest and I'm sure we'll get into this, I think a great episode would be about the mistakes we continually make. There are still things that, how many times, especially the last two years, I'm like, gosh, dang it. I did it again. And I'm in this shitty scenario because I did the same thing over again.

That's right. That's right. I, I hear you, man. I think the. One of the things that are really interesting to me, especially that we have a, we have an advisor team and I remember one of my advisors, I was given to him, our kind of financial outlook and all that sort of thing. And he's just He, I could tell you, you just wanted to say something.

He was like, move around in a seat. And he just was, just really agitated. And so he goes, here's, I'm going to solve all your problems. He started talking about, he, he owns a widget company, that makes widgets. And so I'm like, yeah, let's just make your local price this. And I'm like sometimes we can do a logo in an hour.

Sometimes it takes us three days and. Not one is better than the other. It's just the way the process works. The inspiration comes and we could go to a meeting and think that what we're showing them is the three greatest solutions in the world and they can hate them all. And we're in this weird, next phase process and, it's, we're in a unique.

If we show three directions, this is my, this is something I was telling this advisor the day too, is like, why are people sometimes bummed out about things at work is, do you have a bad culture? Do you have this? Do you have that? And then we're talking about a particular project. And I was like no.

Think about it. We just spent all this time into this project and we gave five examples, and four of those examples are. Some people's hearts are going to be broken or whoever works on that. And that's our business. Like every time we show directions, something is not going to be chosen and hopefully, something will be, it's just a weird business, I think.

Jamie: And that's the same with writing. Every, and I feel like you just, you put yourself out there and it's from your head is the way that I always think of it. I had those thoughts. It's very, I try not to make it personal that it is because I did the research. I had those thoughts. I put them into a concept that I thought would work and then you pass it over to the client and you feel really vulnerable.

It's you're just waiting. And then if they like it, it's like a reflection on you. And if they don't like it, it's a reflection on you. And then you're like, I used to get really upset. Karen knows, first on I would get really upset, but now I've started realizing, okay. It's good to take that feedback and just do better.

A lot of times the feedback does make the writing better. And then when I turned that next draft in there and you nail it, it makes the writing better. So I try to take my ego out of it. 

Karen: That's hard. Yeah. That's a conversation I'd love to have because we could go on for an hour.

Yeah. I'd love to talk that conversation as well, because, and I don't know if it's because I've been doing it for so long or what, but I want to please the client, but I don't get emotional anymore. If they don't like something at all, it's weird. It's very odd it, it's business. And maybe it's because I do the art and the art is personal and, and I don't, but I truly.

A focus on the design and the strategy. First of all, it's a process. I truly believe that if you work with the client and build up enough information before you get to that creative phase, you're going to deliver, you're going to be on point. If you're just designing. To design. There's a good chance.

You're not going to be on, you could be wherever. So as long as you go through the stage and do that, all the work you have to do before you do the design and the content, I always say like the content is the cake and the design is the icing on the cake while there's the strategy. That is the first layer.

90% of the time you're going to be on target. I would say if you do all that work because you're like getting in their head that this is a conversation I would love to have because I think that too much emphasis is put on. Justin. You said you had said about your designers getting their feelings hurt.

The one thing  I had somebody tell them. And I'm still working with this particular person 30 some years later, he was my first boss. And then I worked for him again when I was younger, but he told me you're not designing this for you. You're designing it for them.  It doesn't matter if you like it, it has to fit within their needs.

Justin: Yeah, I'm with you on that. And I think, it's I think sometimes we just make sure I correct that statement and especially if my team's listening, it's really more of disappointment, or frustrating. Versus, and sometimes I think they're hurt or offended based on maybe the client feedback.

Sometimes clients don't know how to give feedback and feedback is the feedback feels real, it feels really harsh or icky, or however, you want to express it. Yeah. Yeah. Like you're talking about direction and seed, they have no idea who did the direction. See, but they said. So that means I suck. So going back to Von's imposter syndrome, that just adds another brick on that statue.  

Karen: And I want to, and I have to say for employees, they're dealing with a little bit different situation than the four of us are dealing with because they're, don't ha they don't have the, they're dealing with layers of communication.

They might be thinking, and I hate to say it, Justin, while we got bad information. From Justin. Do you know what I'm saying? Or I know what you mean. Yeah. Yeah. 

Justin: So there's all kinds of, I, this would be a great episode as well, just talking about, communication and process and how to take, and it's not a wins or losses type thing.

It's how to manage. Our business, right? This is going to happen every day. We're going to do things. And very seldom is a hundred percent of everything we do check off. Yeah, it's great that I don't have any comments go for it. I'll pay a check and add a zero. That doesn't happen, it probably happens to Von, but it doesn't happen to any of us mere mortals. 

And so I think that you really do have COVID look at that reaction. It's so slow. Are you okay over there? 

Jamie: He's like ready for a nappy. 

Justin: We're going to do a whole episode after our first episode where it's just bond centric, where you're jacked up on caffeine, and you're just going to be, I'm going to have, we're going to throw out a rant about illustrator and we're just going to let you go.

Jamie: And then we'll all react 

Von: I’ve calmed down about Illustrator because they don't have an account now. Twitter. So it's not as fun anymore. 

Karen: They probably took it down because of you. 

Justin: Yeah. You just bombed them.

Von: Although I just got invited by one of their engineers to see something, he hasn't gotten back to me. So I get a sneak peek soon. That's cool. They still haven't fixed the snapping bug though. Assholes. Sorry. I forgot we were recording. 

Justin: Make sure when you speak to this gives us an opportunity to put a beep in. I think beeps for swearing are hilarious or we don't, it doesn't matter, but Vaughn, thank you for proving my point. That was so wonderfully easy. It wasn't it. You guys just throw up illustrator.

Jamie: We all have our triggers and eventually we'll figure them out. Next time I'm having a cocktail.

Justin: Yes. And maybe part of our show notes team is we'll share maybe what drinks we have. And if we get really professional, maybe we can start including the recipe or the makeup of thedrink.

Jamie: The shit show cocktail. Someone needs to come up with it. It's brown.

Justin: That works for reasons. I love bourbon, but the way when you said a brown and should show, that sounded just weird to me, 

Karen: muddy water. 

Jamie: That's going to be something good, right? 

Justin: Maybe that's the name of the drink? Muddy water.

Jamie: Hey, that's our homework for the next time. 

Justin: That's right. So I'm really excited about exploring a variety of different business things with you all. And for those listening, please give us comments, and ask us questions. We'd love to, dig into subjects that are, challenging for you right now, or share a story.

We'd love to. Share like stories. Cause I think it's really important for us as a community to realize that, to Von's point doesn't matter where Karen's point, doesn't matter how many years you're in the business, we all still do deal with some of the same stuff. And how can we collectively learn from each other and make a better?

Jamie: Great. Von's going to respond. He's slow. 

Justin: I was waiting. You know what you know, did you guys see that what's a Disney movie with the DMV and the Sloss of the DMV advance you right now. I'm waiting for you to like slowly respond to that.

That's it. Yes. Yeah.

I love it. 

Jamie: I'm looking forward to this. You guys, it's going to be so much fun.