The Creativity, Education, and Leadership Podcast with Ben Guest

Every single author is running a business, whether you like it or not.

Bryan Cohen runs Best Page Forward, a company that helps authors to learn, profit, sustain, and scale their author careers.

He’s helped over 30,000 authors through his Ad Challenges and his Sell More Books Show Podcast has run every week for over a decade. Bryan’s Author Ad Agency manages ads for authors selling millions of dollars in book sales per year.

In this conversation, Bryan and I discuss:

* Brian’s background: bestselling author, founder of Best Page Forward, deep focus on Amazon ads, positioning, and sustainable author income.

* How improv shaped his business and writing: faster decisions, “think on your feet,” scene/character/stakes instincts, and creativity as a daily tool.

* The core mindset shift: finishing the book is only part of the job; connecting it to an audience through marketing completes the circle.

* Self-publishing fundamentals: genre-true cover, strong description, credible reviews, and strategic back matter links.

* Book description “formula” + examples: hook/tagline logic, inciting incident + stakes for fiction, authority + transformation for nonfiction, plus cliffhanger/selling paragraph/call to action.

* Amazon ads: ads diagnose conversion issues. Focus on a few key metrics, ignore noisy stats, compare ad spend to royalties (“split screen method”), and watch settings that silently raise bids.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit benbo.substack.com

I’m not speaking from a place of privilege, I’m speaking from a place of survival.

Alex McNab has a BA in Cultural Anthropology from Columbia University and an MFA in Film Production from the University of Southern California, where we were classmates and friends.

In this conversation, Alex and I talk:

* Is film school worth it? The debate between knowledge, network, and cost…

* “Sloppy Saturdays” as a low-stakes practice to iterate fast and finish something weekly

* Why he sees AI as using available “scraps” to keep making work in a shifting landscape

* How he responds to “this is just AI” comments

* My short doc Homegirls in Outer Space and Alex’s animated documentary proof-of-concept Gullah Binyah: Aisha Been Watts, both playing at the Pan-African Film Festival in Culver City the week of February 16th

* Workflow and where AI tools are heading

* Keeping the human story so the tool doesn’t become the film

You can subscribe to Alex’s Substack here.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit benbo.substack.com

The key to pursuing happiness is living an intentional life. What do I want to achieve? What do I oppose?

Steve is an adjunct professor at Emory University and the Founding Director of the Alabama Civil Liberties Union. His new memoir, out today, is What’s In a Family Name: A Southern Family History Becomes a Gothic Mystery. Here’s the description:

When Steve Suitts undertakes a family research project he uncovers a real-life, true crime, southern Gothic mystery. Ambition, sex, lies, and betrayal. And it all takes place in the Free State of Winston in north Alabama.

And here is the book trailer I put together for Steve:

You can buy the book here at Bookshop.org and here on Amazon. Steve’s website is here.

In this conversation Steve and I talk:

* The moment Steve realized he had a book

* Giving a speech opposing the Ku Klux Klan as a high school student

* Reclaiming history

* The story of James Monroe Blackwell, Steve’s great-great-grandfather, who opposed the Confederacy during the Civil War

* His research and writing process

Here is an AI generated transcript. Don’t come for me.

Here is the cleaned and corrected transcript. I have fixed the formatting, corrected the phonetic misinterpretations (like “Free State” instead of “three state” and “progeny” instead of “GY”), and smoothed out the stuttering for readability.

Transcript: Interview with Steve Suitts

BEN: So Steve, your memoir, What’s in a Family Name? A Southern Family History Becomes a Gothic Mystery, comes out today, Tuesday, January 27th. How are you feeling?

STEVE: I’m feeling like someone who’s waiting to hear what their neighbor’s baby is gonna be called.

BEN: At what point did you realize this story would make a good book?

STEVE: I think the inkling of it was when I discovered that not only was my grandmother’s version of my family history on my father’s side a fiction, but that it didn’t even begin to tell the story. And that point was when I discovered that the person I thought was my grandfather could not biologically be my grandfather, since my father was born at least a year and a half after his death.

BEN: The evidence strongly suggests your biological grandfather was actually B.H. Drake, a prominent, wealthy merchant in Winston County. That’s right. Why do you think the Drake family and the community worked so hard to erase Anna, your grandmother, and her son, your father, from the official record after B.H. married Anna?

STEVE: This is all speculation, but I think there were probably two reasons. The first was simply a matter of embarrassment. Here was a man who was a representative of the local Baptist church at the State Baptist Convention. He gave the land on which the local Baptist church was built. His family was very deeply involved in the Baptist Church, and I think the evidence is that he probably began his affair with my grandmother before he was actually divorced from his first wife. So I think there was a real embarrassment about that in a small-town community.

The second is, of course, that he died, and as a wealthy man. By law, she should have been one of the heirs of his estate, because at the time of his death, all evidence points to the fact that they were still married—although they may have, by that time, returned to his first wife’s estate. So I think that there was this financial interest, that they would want to keep it quiet.

I don’t think there was a great deal of complicity on the part of the broader community, but it was just something that happened. And in the community, I think like most small towns, these things did happen and most small towns knew about it, but simply let it play out on its own terms.

BEN: You devote part of the book to your great-great-grandfather, James Monroe Blackwell, who was a “scalawag,” or Southerner loyal to the Union. You mentioned that he was threatened with hanging for supporting Lincoln. He named his son after President Lincoln, and this is during the time of the Civil War. Why does his story resonate so much with you?

STEVE: When I was in high school in Florence, Alabama, on the Tennessee River, I was a member of the student council, got elected, and I was asked at various times to give speeches at assemblies of the school. One of the speeches I gave was during 1964 or ‘65, and it was essentially an attack on the Klan—the Ku Klux Klan.

I don’t remember the entire speech, but I do remember saying that the Klan had to understand that Halloween came only once a year, and even then, when you wore a mask, you were not allowed to harm people anonymously. And that the Klan was a group who masqueraded without any courage of showing themselves to the public.

I also remember that my teachers on that day kept me late at school. For some reason I did not understand until later in life, one of them drove me home that day rather than letting me walk by myself.

So I came to those views for a variety of reasons. But when I discovered that I had an ancestor who not only supported the Union during the war over slavery, but who also supported the reconstruction of the South on the terms that the Congress established in the aftermath of the Civil War... I realized that I wasn’t the first in my family to believe in the kind of equal treatment under the law that I was espousing as a high school student.

And later, going on to work with the American Civil Liberties Union affiliate in Alabama—where we did more litigation relating to equal treatment under the law as we did the First Amendment—it was a moment in which I realized that whatever bloodlines do in this world for families, I wasn’t the first. And Lord have mercy, I hope I’m not the last.

BEN: When you were young, did you hear stories about James Monroe Blackwell, or did you only discover this history later?

STEVE: I discovered this history later. No one talked about it. My great uncle—my grandmother’s brother—Uncle Wesley, used to talk about why we were Republicans in the family, but he never talked about James Monroe Blackwell. No one did. Not even my grandmother, who I think probably had mixed up fact and fiction so much by the time she told me the story about our family history that she might have put him on the wrong side of the Civil War, after all.

BEN: At the end of the book, you write about the idea of reclaiming history—both with Blackwell and with your grandmother and the Drake family, your great-grandmother, and the decisions that she made to protect her family. Can you talk about that motivation of reclaiming history and what that means to you?

STEVE: Yeah. I think we all are trying to find our place in the world, but the Faulkner concept that the past is not really the past essentially means that, in finding our place in the world, we also have to know who we were in our past, where our family fit in, where we came from. It’s a very Southern notion, but I think it’s a universal one as well.

Reclaiming the history, I think, means that we’re trying to understand where we came from and, by that measure, where we’re going in our lives. One of the things the book jacket says is that this is a story that no family wanted to remember, and a family too proud of its history would always want to forget.

And I think for me, reclaiming history is a matter of not trying to reconstruct it or trying to hide it. It’s trying to simply say: this is where my family has been, this is who we have been. And it doesn’t predict who I’m going to be and what I’m going to be, but it gives me a way in which to frame who I am and how I’m gonna go forward.

And for those who read the book, you won’t be surprised to realize that I have tried very hard in my life to not be the person my father was. I’ve made a very deliberate and very conscientious effort. Whether I’ve succeeded or not, only my sons and descendants will be able to say, but that’s part of reclaiming your history. Look at the word: his-story. That’s what history is. And part of that history is you at that moment, and you can either continue that history or you can break with it.

BEN: But I’ll note... how much do you think people are shaped by their environment, by their family history? And I ask because I think you’re an example of someone who grew up in a conservative political environment. Like you said, one of the teachers had to drive you home after giving your Ku Klux Klan Halloween speech. Personally, as you write about in the introduction, your father was at best difficult—I think accurately described as abusive. And yet you... I don’t know if “rejected” is the right word, but you are a different person than those two different environments would most likely produce.

STEVE: I think the key to the pursuit of happiness—as our Declaration of Independence says—in my judgment, is enabled only by having an intentional life. A life in which you say: Why am I here? What do I want to achieve? What do I want to oppose? What do I want to support? Simply have a sense of intent about how you frame your life.

Now, obviously, everybody knows that we have to earn a living. Sometimes the jobs we get aren’t always the jobs we may have wanted earlier in life. It may be difficult, may have other problems. But generally, it is one where you have to simply live an intentional life, trying to have goals—whether the goals drive out of your reading of the Bible, or whether they’re from great philosophers, or simply out of the sense of what you think is right and wrong.

And I think the discussion about nurture and nature is one that will continue to be unresolved. In that competition between which is more important, your lineage or your environment, there is, I think, something which some religious teachings call free will. Perhaps it’s not as free as some might think, but you have choices to make.

When I was reading the first Harry Potter books with my family—the boys were small and they were devouring those books—I was reading along. And the school superintendent, Dumbledore, makes a statement to Harry Potter in which he says, essentially: “Harry, we are the choices we make.” And at that point I said out loud, “Yeah!” And of course, the boys thought I was talking about who had won the Quidditch match in the book.

But therein lies, I think, my sense of what it’s all about. You make choices. And while those choices may inhibit others and they may open up others, you are those choices, and you need to make them with an intent of what you want your life to be. So that’s my view.

BEN: What was the process of writing this book like?

STEVE: I did most of the research before I even began putting anything down on paper. That’s not usually the way I write books. I usually have a lot of research already done, but you still have to go back in and answer questions as the writing process occurs. In this case, all of the research was virtually done before I started writing. So it really was a more reflective process than a fact-finding process for me.

I have a friend, Jack Drake, who’s a great civil rights lawyer and now retired, who has a memoir coming out that’s gonna be a very important one about somebody who grew up as a white Southern boy dealing with the issues of race in the Deep South. Jack says he thinks the best way to figure something out is to write about it. And there’s a lot of truth in that, if you’re writing honestly.

And I think in this case, the writing process finally brought home both the sense of villainy that’s in the story I tell, and also some sense of pride in the honesty and the good character of people who are also members of my family, whose surname I carry and whose progeny I am.

BEN: So the book comes out today. Where can people buy it and where can people find more information about you?

STEVE: The book is available at any of the major online booksellers. You can go to Bookshop, which is an online store for independent bookstores, but Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Books-A-Million, or whatever online bookseller is out there.It hopefully is at a price that you can afford. It’s a book that I think everyone, hopefully, will be able to read and prompt their own interest in their own family history.

BEN: And if people want to keep up with you and learn more about you, where can they find you?

STEVE: I now have a website and it is aptly called SteveSuitts.com. That’s S-T-E-V-E-S-U-I-T-T-S dot com.

BEN: The book is What’s in a Family Name? A Southern Family History Becomes a Gothic Mystery. Comes out today, available everywhere. That’s a fantastic book. I encourage you to get it and urge you to visit Steve’s website and keep up with what he’s doing. Including... Steve, are you working on another book?

STEVE: I am. Actually, the next book is also going to be set in Winston County, Alabama—the Free State. And it’s going to be about the history of the county, race relations, and centered especially on a single Black school that operated for more than 40 years in Haleyville in a one-room church chapel. I look forward to finishing it and then moving on to the second volume of my trilogy of Justice Hugo Black of Alabama.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit benbo.substack.com

I saw the power of storytelling and the responsibility we have to share stories to educate and change lives.

Dr. Terésa Dowell-Vest is an Associate Professor of Communication at Prairie View A&M University and President of the University Film and Video Association (UFVA), an organization that supports film, television, and media studies in higher education.

In this conversation Terésa and I discuss:

* The music of Janet Jackson, Prince, and Jimmy Jam/Terry Lewis

* Teaching media in a post-truth world

* What UFVA is, why it matters, and how professional associations can sharpen teaching and creative practice

* What filmmaking trends she sees with her students at Prairie View A&M

* The short documentary her students did in collaboration with students from USC (link here)

* “The Death of Cliff Huxtable” and the process of separating art from a problematic artist

Thanks for reading The Creativity, Education, and Leadership Newsletter! Subscribe for free to receive new posts and support my work.

Here is an AI generated transcript. Don’t come for me.

BEN: Hi everyone—Ben Guest here. Welcome to The Creativity, Education, and Leadership Podcast. Today my guest is Professor Terésa Dowell-Vest, an associate professor of Communication and Media at Prairie View A&M University and the President of the University Film and Video Association (UFVA).In this conversation we talk Janet Jackson, the media landscape for young people interested in production, what UFVA does, and more. Enjoy.Professor, thanks so much for joining me today.

TERÉSA: Thank you. Thank you for having me. It’s my pleasure to be here.

BEN: I always like to start with a fun question. Senior year of high school—what music were you listening to?

TERÉSA: Senior year of high school—1989. 1990 was a great year to be a Janet Jackson fan. *Rhythm Nation* was probably worn out in my car’s tape deck. I was a huge fan.

BEN: Did you do the choreography?

TERÉSA: Oh yes. I can do the hands and all that—the “A‑5‑4.” I would do it, for real.And Janet Jackson was the big one, even though Prince’s *Purple Rain* came out a few years earlier. That album was still in regular rotation for me in high school.And then in 1988 New Edition put out *Heart Break*—produced by Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis. That was such a good time. So yeah: Janet, Prince, New Edition—Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis were the soundtrack.

BEN: ’88 was when Bobby Brown’s *Don’t Be Cruel* came out, right?

TERÉSA: Listen, lemme tell you, the eighties to be a teenager in the eighties, to be in your twenties in the nineties. What a time to be alive.

BEN: Yeah. I love it. Okay, second fun question. What’s your pick for best picture this year?

TERÉSA: I’d say *Sinners*. There are a few this year, but funny enough I actually focused more on television—I was obsessed with *Stranger Things* and *Severance* (and one other show I’m blanking on), so I didn’t get to the movies as much. But I did see *Sinners* and it really stuck with me. I should preface that by saying I’m not as familiar with the entire pool, but I’m almost confident it’ll be a strong contender.

BEN: So good. I saw that your MFA thesis was titled *The African American Producer Is the American Griot*. Can you talk about that—maybe even in relation to *Sinners*?

TERÉSA: I’ve always been fascinated by the power of storytelling. My bachelor’s degree and my MFA are both in theater because I love live engagement. That also shaped me as a professor—I love being in front of students and engaging in a transactional, interactive way, not just a linear one. Theater and education give me that kind of exchange with an audience.For my graduate thesis I came to know Dr. Maulana Karenga—best known for creating Kwanzaa. He was chair of the Black Studies program at California State University, Long Beach. During my years there (1994–1997), I was the only Black student in the program, and in 1997 I became the first Black person to graduate with my particular degree from that program. Even in the ’90s I was thinking: why are we still talking about “firsts” and “onlys”?I wanted to bridge storytelling with the legacy of slavery and survival—my own ancestors were from Virginia, where I was born and raised. Dr. Karenga taught me the concept of the *griot*—the storyteller—and the responsibility that comes with that. In the U.S., storytelling often gets treated as frivolous—an extracurricular, “nice to have.” A lot of Black parents, especially, don’t want their kids studying film, theater, or the liberal arts because it doesn’t seem like a stable livelihood. I started undergrad as an accounting major and didn’t tell my dad I’d switched to theater until graduation day—he found out when they called my name under the College of Arts instead of the College of Business. That’s the mindset I came from: my family wanted us to succeed, and the arts read as struggle, not a viable career.But there’s honor in being a storyteller. That idea changed how I saw theater.And it was the ’90s—*Rent* was happening, and I was in Los Angeles, flying back and forth to the East Coast to see Broadway shows that weren’t just entertaining; they were educating and changing lives. I remember *The Life*—not a massive hit, but it told the story of Black and Brown women working as call girls in New York City. You’d think, “Is that a Broadway story?” But the music was outstanding.And there were so many others—*Bring in ’da Noise, Bring in ’da Funk* with Savion Glover, looking at African American history through tap and music. During that period I really saw the power of storytelling—and the responsibility we have to tell stories that educate and change lives.

BEN: That’s so powerful. The responsibility of storytelling to educate and change lives.

TERÉSA: Yeah.

BEN: It’s one of the things I’ve often thought as a teacher: I’m a storyteller. How do you construct a lesson so students are receptive? It’s like you’re telling a story over a unit, a curriculum, or even a single lesson.

TERÉSA: When you engage with students and give them permission to share their stories, you’re not really “teaching” in the traditional sense anymore. It becomes more like peer engagement than “I’m the teacher, I know the things, and I’m telling you the things.”Students receive it differently when they feel you’re invested in who they are—not just their grade.

BEN: There’s a great quote, I think it’s Roger Ebert films, but really stories are empathy machines.

TERÉSA: Yeah.

BEN: It allows us to walk in someone else’s shoes for a moment. There was a reconciliation group in Mississippi whose motto was: “Enemies are people whose stories we haven’t heard.”

TERÉSA: Incredibly profound. When we think about fear, it’s often a lack of understanding—no connection to the thing you’re afraid of. Hearing stories can build that connection.

BEN: Can you talk about the importance of media education? I’m a documentary filmmaker, documentary filmmaking in today’s world where so much of where we are in a post-truth society.

TERÉSA: There are mechanics to telling the truth, and mechanics to telling a lie. In fiction you see this a lot—shows like *The Mentalist* or *Law & Order* where someone reads body language, eye movement, and so on to figure out whether someone is lying.What matters for media education is helping students understand the “tells” in information—how to challenge and debunk claims instead of assuming, “Someone told me a thing, so it must be true.”I didn’t fully appreciate how urgent that was until the pandemic, when early reporting was all over the place and a lot of it conflicted. Being able to sort honest, vetted information from dishonest or speculative claims mattered in a very concrete way—like realizing you probably shouldn’t drink bleach.Coming out of that period, teaching media studies has meant teaching reporting with integrity. You can’t just assume something is true—not because people are “bad,” but because people absorb information differently based on what they’ve experienced.I do a lecture with my senior capstone students on the difference between **knowledge** and **information**. Knowledge is shaped by culture, character, race, gender, where you grew up, what language you speak, what faith you practice—so it can carry bias. Information, on the other hand, is verifiable and can be vetted. 2 + 2 = 4 no matter who you are.Good storytelling—and good journalism—knows how to bridge knowledge and information with integrity. When I have journalism students who lean into opinion-driven news—whether it’s Fox, MSNBC, whatever—I tell them: that’s playing to an audience’s sensibilities. It can be entertaining, but it isn’t the same as straight reporting. Then there’s reporting that aims to be more information-based—“Here’s what happened today.” That also needs to be taught. We’re in a moment where students need tools to tell the truth, recognize lies, pick them apart, and trust their internal compass about what’s important to share.And Ben—my answers get long. You might have to cut me off.

BEN: I’m going to cut you off when what you’re saying stops being interesting—so I doubt I’m going to cut you off.You’re the President of the University Film and Video Association. For listeners: what is UFVA?

TERÉSA: UFVA is a nationally recognized organization of university and college educators and institutions focused on film, television, and media studies—both practice and theory. We’re a collective of makers and scholars. Our members hold a range of degrees—MAs, MFAs, MS degrees, PhDs, EdDs.As an organization, we examine how film and television are used—and we keep digging into how the field is evolving through innovation and emerging technology. Each year we host a conference (typically in July) where we share classroom best practices and research, and we analyze how film sparks conversation.You asked me earlier about a front-runner for Best Picture. I think about *Sinners* as a kind of textbook in a lot of ways. One of my students gave an informative speech last semester on the history of hoodoo, and she referenced *Sinners* heavily because it’s central to the film. In that moment she used a movie as a learning text.That’s what UFVA does: we create space to share those opportunities through research and scholarship, and we bring it back to our students and institutions.

BEN: You said “best practices,” and I want to come back to that because it’s a rabbit hole I love.But first: in an interview you did with the *Journal of Film and Video*, you said you were about to start your UFVA presidency and weren’t sure what to expect. Now that you’ve lived it—how was it?

TERÉSA: One of the biggest things I’ve learned—maybe I’ve only really realized it in the last couple of months—is that joining an association as an educator keeps the fire hot. It keeps you learning.As UFVA President, I’ve met so many people who’ve inspired me. It’s not that I want the presidency to end; it’s more like, “I need more time to implement everything I’m learning from colleagues.” It also pushed me to partner with other organizations and communities I knew about but hadn’t been deeply involved with.I joined UFVA because of the pandemic. Before that I’d never even heard of the University Film and Video Association. I was the kind of person who kept my head down and did my work in my silo, and I was fine with that. But when the pandemic hit, no one knew what to do with film production courses in quarantine.I reached out to colleagues—thinking maybe eight or ten of us would hop on Zoom and talk through hybrid and online teaching. That snowballed. People said, “Can I invite a colleague?” I said yes. I posted on Facebook: if you teach film production or media studies and want to talk about what we’re doing this fall, let’s meet.Jennifer Proctor replied and asked, “Have you heard of UFVA?” I hadn’t. She suggested sharing the call with UFVA, and we kept casting the net. By the time we met, there were 126 professors from around the world—about 100 universities represented, including USC, Ivy League schools, and institutions in Germany and Australia.I ran the meeting as breakout rooms—nine of them—named after Black women in film and television: Shonda Rhimes, Julie Dash, and others. So even in the mechanics of the meeting, people were saying these names and being reminded of who matters in media.Two things came out of that experience. First, UFVA invited me to join the board. I said, “Let me be a member first,” but within a few months I knew: yes, this is where I want to be.Second, I saw the gaps. There was very little representation from HBCUs, and very few Black people involved. Not because UFVA was “bad,” but because people simply didn’t know. So I understood my call: help bring people in, build bridges, and create collaboration without turning it into a slogan. I love that we get to do the work without making it a “thing.” That’s been the value of the presidency for me.

BEN: Love it. Can you talk about with your students at Prairie View, what are some trends you’re seeing with what the young people are doing?

TERÉSA: Oh, child. They want to be influencers.This is the social media age, and a lot of students see it as the primary industry of their generation—and I get it. If you have enough followers and a couple brands offer deals, it can be real money. I have students with tens of thousands of followers. I’m like, I can barely get my family to like a post. And they’re like, “Oh, I do nails,” or “I do lashes,” or “I show my sneaker collection,” and they’ll get 10,000 likes every time they post.My reaction is: we need to be teaching this. We need to teach students how to parlay that into careers. Even if I don’t personally understand every part of it, that doesn’t make it non-viable.It reminds me of when we were in school. The internet wasn’t even a thing when I was in college (1990–1994), and then suddenly we were on the edge of being connected to the world. Professors were saying, “This will create cheaters—you’ll never look things up in books again.” Sound familiar?Now students are figuring out VR, AR, AI. They’re building brands, protecting brands, learning to be CEOs of themselves. That’s exciting.

BEN: Yeah. I think about that all the time. It’s like when people first started writing letters—somebody must have said, “No one’s going to talk to each other anymore. They’re just going to send letters.”

TERÉSA: Exactly. Every generation has a thing—“Who’s using this calculator? You need to learn long division.”

BEN: I graduated high school in ’93, so when you’re talking about Janet, my “Janet album” is literally *janet.*—“Again,” “That’s the Way Love Goes,” all of that. It’s funny how, year by year, the soundtrack shifts just a bit.

BEN: Okay—teaching and best practices. What’s something you’ve done in your classroom that really leveled up your teaching?

TERÉSA: Oh, wow. Gosh, I think it’s less something I’ve done and more the intention of showing the students that their success is not coming from looking up. It’s from looking over. It’s the concept that. When you graduate from college, it isn’t some executive that’s going to give you an opportunity. It’s the people you’re in the trenches with right now that you’re gonna build with right now. So I think the thing that’s leveled up my teaching is less a thing that I can show them as much as relationships that I can help them forge and the power of networking. So our program has has a pipeline relationship with the Annenberg School of Communication at the university. The University of Southern California professor Mickey Turner, who’s a professor there at USC teaches the senior storytelling for Media course similar to the communication capstone course that I teach here. And so every semester, professor Turner and I collaborate. Those two classes together and we introduced those students to each other through pitches, research topic pitches for their final capstone project. And what they see is. Students at an HBCU or students at this PWI are not different at all. They just, they, live in different states. Perhaps they come from different backgrounds, but by and large, they have similar goals. And we teach them that this is who you need to forge a relationship with because when you are at the stage of making deals or going out and work, this is the person you’re gonna want to call. So I think the thing that’s leveled up my teaching is my understanding. And my teaching of that understanding of how the industry works and how it can best work for them. Since you no longer have to live in LA or New York to, to make movies people are making movies on their devices. You have to now find your tribe to tell your stories and it can be much more localized. And so I teach them to build their team where they are and not. Go after this aspirational. The only way I can make it if is if I put it in the hands of someone so far away from me. No, put it in the hands of the guy sitting next to you or the young lady that’s sitting on this other side and shoot your film, make your short tell the story. Do your podcast. I feel like that’s leveled up. The final piece to that USC story is that during the pandemic, five of our students from Prairie View and five students from USC collaborated on a short documentary about the pandemic and how it impacted students at HBCUs, at this HBCU versus how it impacted students at a private, pWI Prairie View is 45 minutes outside of the city of Houston. We’re a rural community. We’re in the middle of nowhere essentially, whereas USC is in the heart of Los Angeles and those students taught, told an amazing story. I’ll send you the link to the film. It’s on YouTube. Told an amazing story from two different vantage points. That is a great indication of how education can be collaborative. Just as film is.

BEN: Yeah. Before we started recording, we were talking about travel—and it just reminds me: travel is one of the best educations people can get. The more you interact with people from around the country and the world, the more you realize how similar we are and what we want: better lives for our kids and a better world to live in.That feels like a good place to end. For people interested in your work, where can they find you?

TERÉSA: A good starting point is **thedeathofcliffhuxtable.com**. That’s where you’ll find my fan-fiction series—and later scholarly series—about separating the art from the artist when the artist is problematic.Bill Cosby’s work touched every stage of my life: as a child I watched *Fat Albert and the Cosby Kids* on Saturday mornings; as a teenager in the ’80s I watched the Huxtables and wanted to be part of that world; and in college in the ’90s—at James Madison University, a PWI—every Thursday night at 8:30 we gathered to watch *A Different World*, and it made us feel connected in a way.When I think about the more than 60 women who came forward, my first thought is: that many people aren’t lying. Even if one person tells the truth, it changes everything.In 2015—around the time the New Yorker reporting was circulating and more women were speaking—I started writing fan fiction centered on the Huxtable family at the moment Cliff Huxtable dies. I “killed” Cliff Huxtable to push back on the idea that Bill Cosby was “America’s dad.” That moniker belonged to Cliff Huxtable—a fictional character written by an artist who created something meaningful and also did something horrific.We can’t see Cliff the same way because he wears Bill Cosby’s face, but they are not the same person—one of them isn’t even real. Writing the series helped me illustrate that tension, and it eventually became a scholarly project.During the pandemic we hosted a virtual series with 51 artists, scholars, and actors who read chapters and then joined post-show discussions on the themes. You can find all of that through the website, and it’s also the easiest way to contact me.

BEN: Wow. Professor, thank you for all the, for your time today, but also for all the good work you’re doing in so many different spaces.

TERÉSA: Thank you. Thank you. And I look forward to listening to the podcast even more. I’m sorry that I’m just now getting hip to your great work, but I tell you what, I am going to tune in and probably hit you up with some questions and excited remarks shortly thereafter.

BEN: I love it.That was my conversation with Professor Dowell-Vest. If you enjoyed it, share it with a friend. Have a great day.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit benbo.substack.com

A memoir is not what happened to you, but what you make of what happened, and why that matters now.

Ronit Plank is a writer, teacher, and editor whose work has appeared in The Atlantic, Poets & Writers, The Rumpus, Hippocampus, and The New York Times.

Kirkus Reviews calls her memoir WHEN SHE COMES BACK, “An intimate, intuitive, emotionally vivid family account that finds hope in reconciliation”. About the loss of her mother to the guru Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh and their eventual reconciliation, WHEN SHE COMES BACK earned Finalist in the Housatonic Awards and the National Indie Excellence Awards and was a Book Riot Best True Crime Book of 2021.

Ronit’s short story collection HOME IS A MADE-UP PLACE won Hidden River Arts’ Eludia Award and the 2023 Page Turner Awards for Short Stories.

Ronit teaches memoir writing for the University of Washington’s Continuum Program and independently, is Creative Nonfiction Editor at The Citron Review, and hosts the podcast and Substack Let’s Talk Memoir featuring interviews with memoirists about their writing process and creative life.

Find everything on her webpage here.

Things Ronit and I discuss in this conversation:

* Ronit began as an actor and improviser (Actors Gang, Groundlings, Ensemble Studio Theater), and how that early training deeply shaped her instinct for narrative arc, subtext, and meaning-making in writing and editing

* She resisted memoir for years because of common misconceptions: that memoir is boring, self-pitying, navel-gazing, or only justified if the writer is famous or uniquely traumatized

* A turning point for her memoir When She Comes Back was realizing that if she didn’t tell her own story—about her mother leaving to follow a guru—someone else would frame it for her

* Ronit articulated a core definition of memoir: it is not what happened to you, but what you make of what happened, and why it still has hooks in you now

* The distinction between situation and story, and that memoir requires selectivity, tension, and a narrative question

* Writers should ideally have emotional support while doing their work

* Common reasons less engaging memoirs fail: repetition without escalation, trauma without meaning-making, and scenes that don’t change the narrator or move the story forward

* The craft of scenes in memoir and why adverbs weaken prose

* An assessment of publishing in 2026: traditional, indie, hybrid, university press, and self-publishing are all valid paths, and writers must define success based on their goals

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit benbo.substack.com

 When it just touches on these really profound themes and it’s moving in a way that catches you off guard.

Matt Nothelfer is a Committee Member of the Borrego Springs Film Festival and working documentary filmmaker.

In this conversation, Matt talks:

* Why small, community-driven festivals like Borrego Springs offer some of the best experiences for indie filmmakers.

* How the festival creates a filmmaker-friendly environment: lounge, home-baked food, networking, and long Q&As.

* The “secret weapon” of Borrego Springs: a local audience that fills a 180-seat theater from morning to night.

* Why early-bird submissions matter—and when they don’t.

* How to spot scammy or low-value festivals on FilmFreeway through community presence, transparency, and online footprint.

* Why filmmakers should focus more on storytelling and theme than technical perfection.

* The blind-submission, five-category review process Borrego uses to evaluate films fairly.

* Why small festivals often have the highest acceptance chances—300 submissions, 70–80 selections.

* How writing a thoughtful, festival-specific cover letter can move a film from “maybe” to “yes.”

* Advice to emerging filmmakers: avoid chasing 100 meaningless laurels and instead pursue festivals aligned with your goals.

Thanks for reading The Creativity, Education, and Leadership Newsletter! Subscribe for free to receive new posts and support my work.

Here is an AI-generated transcript of our conversation. Don’t come for me.

BEN: Hi everyone. This is Ben Guest and this is The Creativity Education and Leadership Podcast. Today my guest is Matt Telfer, who is a committee member for the Borrego Springs Film Festival. In this interview, we talk all things film festival, how to run a filmmaker friendly festival, and tips and tricks for submitting to film festivals.

Enjoy.

Matt, thanks so much for joining the podcast today.

MATT: My pleasure. Happy to be here.

BEN: So, I always like to start with a fun question, senior year of high school, what music were you listening to

MATT: right off the bat with a curve ball? Alright, let’s lay it out. I got the Talking Heads,

BEN: the Cure,

MATT: Like, let’s see, what else?

BEN: New Wave.

MATT: Yeah, a little bit of the punk stuff. I mean, we got Pixies were, was I listening to the Pixies then? I can’t remember. Yeah, so, uh, the Dead Milkman, stuff like that. The pubs, um, yeah, I had some of their records. You know, it’s really frustrating ‘cause I had those records up until like five years ago and I left them at a colleague’s house and they scattered to the wind.

All that good stuff. Yeah. Anyway, I’m still a little bitter about that, but That’s okay. My colleagues, my colleague was a friend and he, he deserved them.

BEN: So you are a committee member at the Borrego Springs Film Festival. What? Yes, sir. And, and you’ve, you’ve held a variety of roles there and, and off air, you’re saying sort of lately you’ve been focused on.

You know, the pre-production of the festival, the website, getting the materials together. Correct? Correct. Reaching out to filmmakers, et cetera. Talk to me, talk to us about what are the fundamentals of running a good festival?

MATT: Well, our context is that we’re super small and modest. Uh, like we were saying before the interview, uh, officially started, we are literally a, a tiny little village in the middle of a giant state park.

Actually the biggest state park in the lower 48 states desert community. We’re actually just south of Palm Springs and, uh, there’s like 3000 full-time residents here and, uh. So running a film festival in a place where there’s literally. Not really a commercial market, it’s a different type of animal.

And um, so we kind of do everything on a very tight budget and we try to personalize stuff as much as we possibly can. We, since we can’t really throw a lot of money at stuff, we just do everything we can in other dimensions.

BEN: What’s an example of that?

MATT: Just trying to be considerate about stuff, uh, being friendly to filmmakers that are willing to submit and to get, and that also get accepted. So when they come here, it’s a personalized experience. We work pretty hard on creating a filmmaker’s lounge where folks can gather and network with each other throughout the entire uh.

Five days of our film festival and while they’re at the film festival and they’re talking to each other, we also have food available for ‘em. One of our great committee members, her name’s Pam, she literally will bake stuff in the evening and bring it in in the morning. So you have fresh pastries, cookies, coffee, like fruit vegetables, just everything laid out.

And you know, there’s really not a huge expense to do that, but you need like the right people to do that, so that’s the thing that kind of makes our festival a little bit. Different, I guess in a way is like there’s a personalized aspect to it and we spread that type of attitude across all our stuff.

So we’re gonna have like four parties during the entire festival, and all those parties have similar type of vibe.

BEN: The reviews that I read online, um, on film freeway filmmakers were saying that it is, it’s a film, it’s a filmmaker friendly. Festival.

MATT: Yeah. Because, you know, that’s what we can do. Mm-hmm. Like, you’re not gonna travel to a remote place in the desert and, you know, run into a bunch of industry folks.

Usually there are exceptions to that. And, uh, as our. Film festival has gotten a little more solid, and we occasionally have some industry people coming in. Most of the time it’s indie filmmakers. You know, we might have some elbow rubbing that this kind of neat. But for the most part, you know, these are just small independent filmmakers trying to do their thing and.

Wanting to share their films with an appreciative audience. And aside from, being very personable, uh, with the committee and with the staff that run the film festival, one of the great things about our particular film festival is that the community is a huge part of what we do. The event they show up, we have 180 seat theater and it’s full from 10:00 AM in the morning until eight o’clock at night.

Oh wow. Every block and wow. It’s been that way since the beginning, and it’s not because of anything that we do on the committee, it’s simply because the community wants to be a part of it. And so that’s kind of our secret weapon, is like you show up as a filmmaker and like, oh man, I got, I got scheduled for the 10:00 AM block.

They, and then they, they show up and like, what’s going on here? This is look back. And then at the end of it, you know, there’s an extended q and a. We don’t. Push our blocks back to back really tight and there’s plenty of time just to like relax and having interaction with folks and some q and as will go on for like a half an hour, if not more.

And it’s just, you know, so that’s a unique thing that just kind of emerged without effort. And we take credit for it and we’re excited that we can offer that. But you know, it wasn’t any, it wasn’t by design, it was just kind of like, cool. This is working.

BEN: As far as festivals go, it sounds like filmmaker heaven.

MATT: Well, you try to, we definitely try to be. And the dude that got this whole thing rolling, his name’s Fred G and he has lived in this little community for a really long time, and he’s a great guy and he’s one of the reasons why a lot of people show up because, you know, he’s just one of those kind of like community, uh, he’s, he’ll be really upset if I use this phrase, but he’s like a town elder. Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So just having that type of guidance and having that type of person that can kind of unify the entire event, I. Is really great. And again, like I said before, it’s kind of our secret weapon is that we have like this great community that’s willing to be a part of a filmmaker’s storytelling in so much as like they’ll sit there, they’ll react to it, they’ll ask questions about it afterwards.

So yeah, if you’re. A filmmaker that wants your film to be seen by actual eyeballs and actual people that are engaged. Mm-hmm. Then film festivals like ours, which there are many around, around the world. You gotta search ‘em out. As a filmmaker, you’ve gotta. Start getting discriminating. You’ve gotta really pay attention to what films are film festivals are offering and try to be a part of those kinds of environments, if that’s what you want.

BEN: So this is great because you’re, um, you are part of the Bgo Springs Film Festival, you’re also a working filmmaker. What are some other festivals that you’ve attended or know about that have a similar sort of filmmaker friendly vibe?

MATT: Full Bloom film festival in North Carolina for sure. The WYO Film Festival in Wyoming, we enjoyed that a lot.

My wife and I who are documentary filmmakers, we’ve taken our film films there. And again, you know, it’s the exact same recipe basically, you have a core group of citizens that are willing and able to show up and be a part of an event. So when you sh, when you arrive as a filmmaker and you sit in the audience, you’re not alone with, or if you’re in the audience and you’re only with other filmmakers there to screen their movie, you know?

Yeah. You know that, you know that feeling. We’ve been there, right? We’ve been, we’ve all been there and, and we don’t. Film festival is like what we’re talking about right now. They don’t wanna offer that. They want it to be something, even if they sometimes fall short, which has happened with us, we’ve had blocks where, maybe there’s only 50 people in the audience and, you know, half of the audience might be filmmakers.

But that is such a rare thing anymore. You just wanna be offering something to filmmakers. Make them feel appreciated because we know how hard it is to make these things and even and to be willing to share that in front of other people and, ask and answer questions it’s a special thing and we wanna nurture that as much as possible and sort of those other film festivals.

Love it. Yeah.

BEN: Yeah. So we, I, I first came across you on Reddit on the film festival subreddit, and you were offering good advice and thoughts on, for filmmakers applying to festivals, how to think through strategy. So I guess for all, yeah. I mean, did you hear Yeah, help us out.

MATT: Yeah. Did you, when you were reading that stuff, I mean, what kind of hit you as like the most relevant?

BEN: I think it’s two things and since I, I just have a documentary. I finished and am submitted a film festivals. I’ve read a bunch of stuff. Seen a bunch of stuff, so I may conflate some of the things that you said versus something I saw elsewhere. But two things. That’s all right. I’ll

MATT: take credit for it.

BEN: One is know what your goal is ahead of time, right? Oh, yeah, absolutely. To, be it the, be it a filmmaker friendly festival with good parties and events and networking. Is your goal to get exposure? Is your goal to meet people in the industry? Is your goal mm-hmm. To get laurels? Those are all different worthy goals, but they all will change your strategy and your approach for film festivals.

And the second is, you know, submit to, don’t submit to 50 festivals. Submit to 5, 6, 7, see what the results are and then adjust from there.

MATT: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. So yeah, when we’re talking strategy, that’s so important and, and we can speak about it from the perspective of the Borrego Springs Film Festival because, you know, knowing the context of the type of festival we are now, if you were a filmmaker that was searching out, let’s say.

A bunch of like publicity for, you know, some type of, media push. It’s like, would you necessarily want to come to Bgo Springs? Maybe yes, maybe no. It depends on how you played it, but. The main reason you would be coming to Borrego Springs, we feel is because you want that personal interaction and you want feel special as a filmmaker and you want to share your stuff with us, and we want you to share your stuff with us, right?

So you’re absolutely right when you’re initial initiating your kind of film festival search as a filmmaker, you really gotta narrow down what your expectations are. And figure that out. I can speak as a filmmaker as well. It’s like if you’re gonna go someplace and spend money to do so, I mean, at the very minimum you squeak by on a budget of 500 bucks, then that’s kind of like dirt cheap to go someplace and then return home.

You know? That’s still a lot of money. Mm-hmm. And that’s, that’s probably like. The least amount that you would ever be able to spend and you would need help, like getting lodging, which we try to offer to our filmmakers. Um, you know, how are you gonna, what are you gonna do? What are you going to eat when you get there, which we try to offer to our filmmakers.

And, you know, all those things become part of the calculus, right? Mm-hmm. Especially when you’re independent, mm-hmm. I would ask you is like when you’re trying to submit, what are you aiming for right now?

BEN: So great question. So I’m aiming for trying to get multiple laurels and I’m in, in a little bit of a different situation, I think, than most filmmakers.

So I, I have an academic background, I have a PhD, and ideally I’d like to I’ve worked at various universities. In the ideal world, I’d like to go back overseas and teach film at a university. And so in the world, in the world of academia, you know, there’s this phrase, publish or perish, right? You have to publish academic journal articles, publish.

Mm-hmm. In film, in the world of filmmaking, academia, a film festival run. A film festival. Acceptance is like a journal article, right? Um, maybe if you do a feature film that’s like publishing a book, this is sort of, uh, roughly equivalent to getting a, a journal article published. So I want to sort of garner a number of laurels so that I can indicate, you know, this, this short plate at these 10 different film festivals.

MATT: Okay, so the credentials matter, right? Correct. It’s kind of like that kind of that’s

BEN: exactly right. Little

MATT: trophy on the mantle, as it were. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, um, I’m gonna ask you another question if that’s okay.

BEN: Yes. I feel like I’m getting a All right. Free film festival, um, consulting.

MATT: Perhaps, I don’t know about that, but when you are pursuing the laurels and, you know, everything’s kind of like filtering through film freeway these days. Mm-hmm. So what’s your strategy as far as like finding those types of film festivals that you think are going to, allow you to get those laurels on your poster or whatever?

BEN: Yeah. Another great question. So couple things. One is it’s a doc. My latest is a documentary short, and it’s, it takes place in the world of improv comedy. And the two subjects are two black women. So looking at festivals that either are geared towards comedy, towards documentary shorts or towards black themes and African American themes. One of those three or, or, um. Themes of uh, women in, in general. Sure. Well, if I could

MATT: interrupt real quick, please. Yeah. So it seems like you’re trying to basically still maintain some integrity as far as that goes. It’s like, yeah, I’m not relevant

BEN: all like the fly by night, if you submit, we’ll give you the, you know, the UP award.

Yeah, exactly. Well, that, that’s why I’m

MATT: asking because. Okay. Because that’s why I’m asking because, there are plenty of, you know, weird little festivals that are floating around the mill fly by night, that,

BEN: that

MATT: come, that come and go. And if you want to get a hundred laurels on your poster, if that’s, you know, what makes you feel good, then you could definitely do that.

But at least what you’re saying is like, okay, let’s make sure that what’s happening with my film has integrity, has, has a shape, and has, something that means something after, you get accepted.

BEN: Yes. Oh, a hundred percent.

MATT: And the reason I bring that up is because, you know, as a small film festival we struggle with getting we just struggle competing with what’s out there on film Freeway, let’s put it that way.

BEN: You know, because Talk about that. Break it

MATT: down. Yeah. You know, it’s just, as anyone knows that’s trying to do this thing, it’s like you hit film freeway and they’re a great platform. I’m not, complaining about them at all, but there’s just a lot of stuff on there that is more or less as a filmmaker or relevant.

I mean, would you agree with that?

BEN: Oh, a hundred percent.

MATT: Unless all you’re wanting to do is just get one laurel to put on your, on your poster, so you know. Maybe they offer a little bit of something. But as a filmmaker, I’ve been to the ones that don’t offer much anything aside from a screening and even, and it’s like I’m lucky enough to even go to ones that have physical screenings.

A lot these days are just like, oh, we’ll slap it online and call it good. So, you know, uh, let’s be honest, there’s a lot that are just out there and they’re just trying to churn. Make some money. So as a small film festival, we’re competing with that stuff and we’ve seen our, uh, submission rate decline, not necessarily a bad thing for us.

Mm-hmm. But for other film festivals, I imagine they might be getting frustrated with it. We are actually perfectly comfortable with where we’ve kind of landed and the groove we’ve been in since the pandemic. Even a little few years before then, and we haven’t tried to kind of like change our recipe much.

So we’re just happy with the amount that we’re getting. We’re happy with the amount that we’re accepting and we’re pleased with how we’re screening stuff and the opportunities we’re giving people. But I do feel, from what I’ve seen, it’s becoming. Uh, it’s just, it’s a bit, it’s a bit difficult to navigate the slop.

Let’s just break it down like that. Yeah. And I don’t know if you’re feeling if you’re experiencing the same thing or not. I’d be curious to, to see what you, what you say.

BEN: For a hundred percent, so I, I made a few documentaries in the late 20, 2011, 2012, and that was right when Without a box, which was filmed free, right without

MATT: a box.

BEN: Started and it was great because instead of having to burn a bunch of DVDs and physically mail them, you could just upload your film and then submit it to a bunch of festivals. Research a bunch of festivals. Great. Coming back to it now in 2025, it’s Scam Central and I think unfortunately one of the things you, you have to spend a bunch of time doing is trying to figure out which of these festivals.

First of all, which of these festivals are just legit in that they’re not trying to just mm-hmm. Get money from you. They’re gonna do a virtual screening and that’s it. And then once you even get that breakdown, kinda like you said, which are festivals that are legit, that, that have good people working hard, good intentions, you’re proud to show your film there versus they’re just churning through submissions and fees.

And chart, have a bunch of deadlines and a bunch of different slots you can apply for. They’re not the exact opposite of how you describe Borrego Springs.

MATT: Yeah. And you have to, as a film festival, at least in our opinion over here, it’s like you have to bring that value to the table or else why?

Why are you really doing it? And if that answer is like, you’re just some guy sitting in an apartment somewhere trying to make a lot of money or a living, I don’t know if you can make a lot of money doing this.

BEN: Mm-hmm.

MATT: Um, but. If you’re just doing a film festival that is literally fly by night because you want to cash in, it’s like, that’s really unfortunate.

Now the other side of that coin is like we see a lot of very earnest filmmakers submitting and, uh, they might not be the most technically adept. And they’re fresh out of the gate as far as like trying to be a filmmaker. So they’re very eager and you know, they just want to tackle everything all at once, and they end up you know, they’re not really exercising any discrimination about where their films are going and they end up, you know mm-hmm.

Kind of wasting a lot of money in that regard. Submitting, the, submitting, submitting without much, kind of emotional reward from it. And I think,

BEN: yeah.

MATT: Having some type of like positive feedback about what you’re doing is great, even if it’s whatever.

But. It really helps to have a place to land where you feel like super special and cared for and considered and not just like, oh, I showed up and, it cost me $10 to get into my own movie and it’s costing me $20 to, buy a cocktail over here and, you know, those kinds of things.

If you’re even lucky enough to get that, honestly.

BEN: Right. What’s your advice on spotting scams when you’re applying to festivals?

MATT: How to be discriminating as far as like submitting?

BEN: Yeah,

MATT: I mean I can only approach that from our, my wife and i’s own experience trying to get our films into festivals. And with the insight like working on a film festival, I think that helps.

But trying to spot ‘em is really, you got to. Try to get a sense if there’s any type of community involvement going on mm-hmm. With the festival. And you can usually track that online if you’re, you know, if you’re a bit sleuthy, and you can find out if it’s being supported by the community in some sort of way.

Mm-hmm. And it shouldn’t take you too long to figure that out with a couple of decent, online searches and follow in a few threads of information. Another thing is, is like if they’re kind of nurturing their online presence, you know, it doesn’t have to be super sophisticated. You just have to get a vibe that they’re trying.

And if, if you get that kind of sense, then it’s worth the effort. Typically the other thing is you gotta really know what type of film festival that you’re submitting to, right? If you’re making documentaries, you’re not submitting to, you know, a feature film, festival Right. In every festival.

So yeah. Core effects. So I, yeah. You know, it’s just being, making those obvious decisions. But when you dig beneath that superficial stuff and you get past like the obvious. Really try to get a sense about what you want yourself as a filmmaker when you go to a film festival. And for us it’s like getting appreciative eyeballs on the film and giving us fun feedback and having a good time and interacting and, and doing some networking, uh, basically having a party and celebrating your film.

Mm-hmm. And I think that we

BEN: think about, yeah, sorry, go ahead.

MATT: I think that this, that’s important for us, so I imagine, and I, I would think that it’s important for other people that are making movies as well. Yeah. If we, about, especially independently.

BEN: Yeah. Yeah. You know, there’s you were alluding to very little money in it, but, um, there are, there are rewards.

Yes. One of the biggest of which is seeing your film in a packed house with an engaged audience. What from a screener perspective, from a film festival perspective, what are some tips you would give up and coming filmmakers, young filmmakers on their short films in particular mistakes that you see et cetera, et cetera.

MATT: I would say the biggest mistake, especially as a, a young filmmaker, is concentrating so much on the technicalities of the craft and ignoring the storytelling. Um, you know, we, you mentioned, and we mentioned before about like when we started, uh. Kind of submitting to film festivals. This was basically what, like 15 years ago for both of us now, right?

2010s, 2012, whatever. Mm-hmm. The technical back then could elevate you above everything else back then. Like today. You know, look, anyone that has a, has a mobile telephone, essentially has the skillset it takes, or not the skillset, but the technical wherewithal.

An

BEN: outstanding camera.

MATT: Yeah. Yeah. And the point being is like you can go out and you can create something compelling without the gate of the technical getting in the way. Uh, you can capture it. And it doesn’t have to look like a million bucks. It’s nice if it looks like, you did a big budget thing on a small budget.

I’m not knocking the craft of anything. I’m just saying don’t be so intent. Or maybe even don’t even worry if like, it falls short technically a little bit. ‘cause I will. Guarantee you that a film is gonna get into a film festival based on if it’s a compelling story with a good theme or not. And theme is another thing that a lot of folks don’t necessarily appreciate, I don’t believe.

Just to give you a little bit of insight, our film festival. Is the selection committee are not industry professionals. They are regular citizens. They’re just watching movies to help out our film festival. Now, try to imagine what that means. It’s like folks don’t focus on the technical unless it’s an absolute train wreck.

They will literally sit down and say, is this something I’m interested in and am, am I engaged with the story? Full stop. So that’s where, that’s the thing you have to focus on. And if you’re not doing that as a filmmaker, okay, maybe you’re just, you know, maybe your thing is gonna be, you’re just a cinematographer, you’re just a sound guy.

You know, you’re more crafty than you are. You know, a storytellers you gotta find that. You gotta find that place. That would be the main thing, because I know we, we. This, I think this is a good thing about our particular film festival is that we have taken in some films that probably weren’t like technically as good as they should have been, but because they are just so.

Compelling. We don’t ignore it like we do pay attention to the craft, but if a story elevates beyond the craft, we’re more than happy to bring those folks in. And when those folks come in, they’re like, oh my gosh. You know, it was like we’re having a hard time getting accepted to film festivals and we’re so grateful that you took our film and we can’t believe the response that we’re getting.

Um, they tend to be the best. Most enthusiastic filmmakers and attendance of anybody. Mm-hmm. They’re not cynical, you know, they’re not burnt out, they’re just like over the moon.

BEN: They’re happy to be there.

MATT: Yeah. And it, and they should be. And they’re gonna spread the word ‘cause they, they’ve created something.

Yeah. Wonderful. Now, you know, maybe it’s underexposed, maybe it’s overexposed. Maybe the audio’s not great here and maybe the audio’s okay there, whatever. It’s compelling. That’s the main thing. And you and you as a filmmaker really need to start analyzing. My wife and I do this all the time. It’s like, what the heck are we making here?

Are we making something that is compelling to us personally? Mm-hmm. Are we making something that’s compelling to other people? Mm-hmm. It’s two different things.

BEN: Mm-hmm.

MATT: I mean, that’s right. So storytelling is hard.

BEN: Yeah. That’s the craft. It’s storytelling.

MATT: Yeah.

BEN: Yeah, yeah. What does your, so you’ve got screeners, not industry folks, people just who appreciate films and filmmaking.

What does your judging sheet or criteria sheet look like with your screeners, and what’s the process that a film goes through?

MATT: Here’s another thing about our particular film festival. We’re completely blind. Submissions. You know, we do not solicit anything. It’s like early days we were kind of like poking around and asking for some folks to kind of consider us, but we’ve kind of let that fall by the wayside.

Maybe that’s one of the reasons our submissions have declined a little bit over the years. One of the factors, but regardless completely blind submission. So. Stuff comes in. We have a bunch of people that are at the ready and they start watching it, and we basically have a five step process.

It’s like, consider this, consider this, consider this, consider this. And they do that. And they mark it from scale of one to 10. And, uh, from that we kind of start our, fundamentally

BEN: what are, what are the different, consider this. Like what are the categories?

MATT: Let’s see. I gotta look it up, but it, it basically breaks down to, okay.

Are you sentimentally engaged with this? Meaning, is it, is it a subject matter? I love that question

BEN: that,

MATT: yeah, it is a subject matter that you. Like just offhand, like, okay. It’s a, it’s a nature movie. See, I love nature movies. Oh, I see. Are you, you see what I’m saying?

BEN: Predispose, I thought, I thought you meant was the film engagement.

MATT: No, no. It, no, it’s, it’s, it becomes both. It becomes both, right? Yeah. Because your sentimental attraction to something is going to create an engagement. So we kind of wanna know if, uh, our regular folks are like just locking into something because they just love the subject matter.

BEN: They make the topic.

Yeah.

MATT: Yeah. Um. Then from there we do actually talk about craft, even though I was saying before, like, uh, don’t worry so much filmmakers about the craft anymore, but we wanna make sure that you can hear it. Okay. It’s not a total disaster with the audio and you can see everything. Okay. So we ask them to rate it on that scale.

And then, um, other, you know, just more nuancey things is like, okay, is the pacing cool? In other words. Did you find it like it was dragging a lot or it was, too fast? How’s the editing style? Those kinds of metrics. And there’s actually a few other ones in there as well. So all that is just kind of thrown into the pile.

Mm-hmm. And then from there we start to weed that out as we come to after like all the submissions come in and from. Once all the submissions come in and our, our deadline has passed, then the committee jumps in and starts doing a more nuanced type of an analytical thing to the films that have been submitted.

But I will say that regardless of how we kind of shuffle things, once the deadline is closed, the people that watch our films and the committee members are usually. Copacetic. There’s hardly anything that that changes. And, um. The nice thing about our particular film festival too, is like if you’re a filmmaker submitting, you know, I’ll just, I’ll give you the numbers.

We essentially get like 300 submissions, so it’s not a lot. Mm-hmm. Um, and out of that 300 we are running a sub, we’re running a screening rate anywhere between like 70 to 80 movies a season. Mm-hmm. So that’s a really good. That’s a really good, uh, opportunity to get accepted at a film festival, and that’s why small film festivals might be the best bet for a lot of independent filmmakers, I think.

Mm-hmm. You know, because you have that opportunity to get noticed. So I think I might have tangent, I went off tangentially a little bit there, so if you wanna pull me back in.

BEN: Yeah. You went off tangentially, but in a great way. I mean that I want to appreciate the transparency with the numbers. I interviewed, um, the director of the Wyoming International Film Festival, a guy named Rudy Womack, and he was the same.

He was like, here’s our numbers, we publish ‘em. He’s like, most festivals don’t, but it just demystifies the process. So it’s very helpful.

MATT: Yeah. And I’ll give film pre credit because they allow film festivals like ours to put those numbers online. Mm-hmm. And, and we’ve done that. If you hit our page on film Freeway, you can start to figure out what we’re about without too much trouble.

BEN: What are the, what are the different blocks you run?

MATT: As far as like thematically?

BEN: Yeah. Yeah. Like at a festival. What are the different categories and blocks.

MATT: Aha. See now you touched on something that’s kind of unique to us. Okay. So, you know, you go to a film festival and it’s like, oh, this is the, this is our dog block.

Every movie’s about dogs.

BEN: Right, right.

MATT: Or something like that. We don’t do that. At all. So we kind of grab bag, the whole thing. It becomes a very eclectic mix of stuff. Mm-hmm. And one of the reasons we’ve ended up doing that is because our community has kind of demanded it. Whoa.

Interestingly enough. Yeah, so they drove the decision to kind of like stop doing thematic blocks and they wanted a better mix of things because they, again, our folks here, they show up for every single block place is packed.

BEN: I just, and sorry to interrupt before you finish, like everything you’re saying, it just sounds like there’s an iter iterative feedback loop.

Between the community in the festival, the film? Absolutely in the festival. The volunteers in the festival. So I just wanna highlight that ‘cause I’m loving everything you’re saying.

MATT: Well, again, like I said, it’s the secret sauce. It’s our, it’s our weapon that we have our secret weapon that allows us to kind of like elevate beyond our like humble budget.

Right.

BEN: The community is, but community is letting you know, we don’t want thematic blocks.

MATT: Yeah. The community came in and said, we, we want mix. So when we sit down and we’re sitting through movies, it’s like. If we’re watching something that we’re not in tune with thematically, then you know, you would have to sit there for like an hour and a half and just kind of tolerate it.

Whereas now, if like a movie comes on about dogs and for some reason you’re just a weirdo and you don’t like dogs, that movie will come and go and now you’re onto something else, right? Mm-hmm. So. Yeah like you just mentioned, it, it really becomes a cooperative effort between the community, the film festival itself and, and even the filmmakers.

And we’re kind of proud that it is a little bit ramshackle in that way ‘cause it creates a very organic vibe and weirdly enough. Like at the end of it all because it, it’s a little bit random. It is like how folks get scheduled.

BEN: Mm-hmm.

MATT: Themes are emergent anyway.

BEN: Mm-hmm. It’s, people

MATT: start creating patterns that didn’t exist and then it sometimes that becomes really profound.

It’s like, didn’t even think of that. It’s brilliant. However oh, the other thing about programming too, that we do specifically for our film festival is that we. We ask our filmmakers, say like, Hey, are you planning on coming here? And if they, if they are planning on coming here, we try our, our level hardest to make sure that we program their films to match their schedule, right?

So we don’t lay out our program and say, okay, you were scheduled for, you know, Wednesday at 2:00 PM. It’s like, well, I’m only free on the weekend. You know, and you wouldn’t, you would never be able to attend. We ask first to say, do you think you’re gonna be able to be here? And if they say yes, then we try to accommodate as best we can.

So again, it’s, it’s collaboration across the board from filmmakers down to the, to the citizens of our small town.

BEN: One of the things I read somewhere, or heard somewhere, is that it’s much more advantageous to apply for the early bird deadline. What’s your take on that?

MATT: For our film festival, not so much, but I, I definitely adhere to that strategy as a filmmaker.

If nothing else, it’s budget conscious, you know? Yeah, yeah. It’s cheaper usually under the initial deadlines you know, you have to take advantage of that. The other thing I guess is like, I will say from our experience, uh, with our particular film festival, if you get it in under the early bird deadline, at least it’s there.

And you know, you’ve basically got like four or five, six months for the submission. Crew for that particular film festival to kind of think about it. Whereas if it comes in a last minute, you’re not really gonna get as much consideration. It’s just gonna have to be more like, uh, an initial one-off type of decision.

So

BEN: are there other, and I mean the, the most important advice right, is always make a good movie outside of the movie. Yeah. Are there other ancillary things that. Can move the needle at all. Cover letters, director statement, press kit, stuff like that, or it’s not, uh, it’s negligible.

MATT: Hmm. It’s neg negligible to an extent in so much, it depends on how you frame it as the filmmaker.

Mm. And let me, I’ll try to explain. So every year as a film festival, you just basically get cover letters. It’s like, oh, take my film please. It’s about this, it’s about that. But it’s a cover lever, co cover letter. It’s, uh, copy and pasted. You can tell. You can just, you just know. It’s like, okay, they’re making an overture to us, but they’re also making an overture to like a hundred other film festivals.

It’s like if you’re gonna write to a film festival and say you want in, just make sure that you actually acknowledge who you are sending your film to. Don’t just say, Hey, Borrego Springs, I wanna be in your film. I like Borrego Springs, mm-hmm. My parents went there once and I’ve always been com I’ve always been interested in the desert and how awesome would it be?

See, that tells us that you’re paying attention. Right?

BEN: Mm-hmm.

MATT: That you’re trying. We’re trying. We just want the filmmakers to try as well, as far as like trying to make any requests to get preferential treatment, and it’s totally cool to ask for preferential treatment. By the way. You can say, I see that you’re a small community.

I just made a film that’s, that takes place in a small community. We might be a really good fit. That kind of thing matters, right? An email overture works. Yes. An email overture doesn’t work. No. It’s both things at once, depending on, it really depends on how you write that letter. So if you wanna invest the time and effort to try to impress a film festival, just make sure that.

You understand what that film festival is and really think about if what you’re offering, the film festival is something that they might want. And if you can, if you see a, a common thread there, write about it in a letter. And even if it’s just one sentence, it’s like, then we know on our side that this person’s paying attention and that that kind of matters.

It does matter. So at the end of the day, when you’re take, when you’re kind of like really trying to figure out your cutoff, if your little film happens to be on the bubble, guess what? It might get into film festival, right? Mm-hmm. Because you said that you have a connection to this place, and I think that’s fair.

I mean, what, does that make sense?

BEN: Yeah, for sure. So the festival is coming up in January, is that correct?

MATT: Yeah, we’re in the middle of gearing up for it right now, as a matter of fact. Nice. I gotta run out to the, to town here in like a, like 15 minutes actually to do some stuff for the film festival.

So yeah, it’s, it’s, well, today we’re shooting, um, a little promo, uh, thing that we’re gonna run, run during. At the beginning of the blocks, and I’ll be doing that with Fred G the chairman of the board. Yeah, that’s nice, fun stuff. We try to have fun with things, so. Yeah.

BEN: We do little

MATT: skits and whatnot during the award ceremony.

It’s, it’s goofy. I love it. Cheesy as hell, but we like doing it, so

BEN: I love it. Oh, that’s actually something that I sort of, in, in, in my cover letters, which I try to. You know, write tailored to the festival. Especially the ones in California say, well, the film’s about this improv duo and mm-hmm. We accepted, we’ll come and we would love to do a little improv performance for the festival attendees.

Um,

MATT: I will say this too, because we’re such what you just mentioned. I just want to piggyback on that for a second. So you said in my cover letter I’ll say, we’re willing to attend. It’s like if you say that in a cover letter and you mean it, you, and you’re willing to do that. Yeah. That’s good. Especially for a festival like ours.

We want filmmakers to come here. We wanna treat ‘em to a good time. We want them to be part of something that’s. Big in the community and the community wants that as well. So if you’re here and you’re willing to be here, then that matters.

BEN: I love it. Well, I mean, everything I’m hearing about Borrego, like literally I just reached out ‘cause I wanted to just talk film festival submissions, but now I’m like, Ooh, next year I’m definitely gonna submit to, uh, to Borrego.

MATT: Yeah, I know this was supposed to be like a strategy session and here I am bragging about the film festival. That’s

BEN: No, no. It’s exactly what I, what I want. It’s great. Last question. What’s a, what’s a. Documentary that blew you away recently?

MATT: So, okay, so last year at our film festival, there was this really cool documentary called Dale. Have you seen it?

BEN: No. Tell me about it.

MATT: So Dale is like this older woman and she’s the first basic Asian American that was in the, um, uh, Los Angeles orchestra, the Los Angeles Phil Harmonic. Okay. And essentially all it is is.

I say all it is like, it’s a very profound kind of retrospective of what she did to get to that point and you know, her views on things and it’s just, and the music that was involved, just very beautiful, very poignant and simple. And. So when, when you have like movies like this and it’s, it’s not even a 10 minute long movie, it’s under 10 minutes.

Mm-hmm. When it just touches on these really profound themes and it’s moving in a way that catches you off guard. Those are the things that you can’t ignore, right? Mm-hmm. And this is actually, Dale’s a good example because, you know, it’s not always shot pristinely, it doesn’t have to look, perfect. But the story reaches kind of a transcendent level that is really, really nice. So if I would throw in Dale and let me see, uh, the the director of that, his name was Justin Strike. So if anyone, I think it’s still on the film festival circuit, so you have that opportunity. Go check it out.

BEN: Love it. Love it. Love it. Matt, thank you so much for taking the time. For people who are interested in Borrego Springs Film Festival, either to attend, to submit, et cetera, what where should they go and where can they find you?

MATT: Oh, online search, just, you know, Borrego Springs Film Festival. It’ll lead you to all the places you need to be.

And, uh, yeah, just track us down that way. Pretty straightforward. Take a peek at what we’re offering. We keep mm-hmm uh, we keep an archive of the stuff we’ve done online so you can pull back the curtain and look and say, okay, is this kind of something I’d be interested in?

Um, you can get a vibe for it that way. And, uh, that’s, yeah, that’s kind of it. That’s kind of it. I think we’ve tried hard to make sure that what we offered is pretty transparent, and if you take a look at it and you think it’s a good fit, and by all means, send us your stuff. Including you, by the way, so, you know.

Yeah, no, you have to submit as well now would definitely

BEN: be submitting early bird deadline next year. Perfect. I wish I, if I was still in LA I’d come down, uh, next month and, and just go to this upcoming festival. It sounds wonderful.

MATT: Well, I know. Why don’t you just do it anyway?

BEN: Yeah, I’ll give you a

MATT: VIP pass.

I that,

BEN: listen, I might take you up on it. I still all, well, if you do, it’s

MATT: we’ll be waiting for you.

BEN: You, you know, we’re, we’re documentary filmmakers. We always have a couple irons in the fire. So I do have one kind of idea of, uh, another doc I’d like to shoot out on la maybe I’ll combine it. I’ll let you know.

MATT: Perfect excuse.

BEN: Hey, this was fantastic. Thank you so much for taking the time. I’m so glad um, we connected and uh, just listen. Our pleasure be fantastic.

MATT: Yeah, we’re, we’re happy as a film festival to be asked to do this kind of thing, so thank you. And um, best of luck to your film too. I’m gonna check it out, so be sure to submit it straight away.

BEN: I will. Thank you so much, Matt. Alright man. Thanks.

BEN: That was my interview with Matt of the Borrego Springs Film Festival. Hope you enjoyed, please forward to at least one person. Have a great week.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit benbo.substack.com

Trusting the process is a really important way to free yourself, and the film, to discover what it is.

Viridiana Lieberman is an award-winning documentary filmmaker. She recently edited the Netflix sensation The Perfect Neighbor.

In this interview we talk:

* Viri’s love of the film Contact

* Immersion as the core goal in her filmmaking

* Her editing tools and workflow

* Film school reflections

* The philosophy and process behind The Perfect Neighbor — crafting a fully immersive, evidence-only narrative and syncing all audio to its original image.

* Her thoughts on notes and collaboration

* Techniques for seeing a cut with fresh eyes

You can see all of Viri’s credits on her IMD page here.

Thanks for reading The Creativity, Education, and Leadership Newsletter! Subscribe for free to receive new posts and support my work.

Here is an AI-generated transcript of our conversation. Don’t come for me.

BEN: Viri, thank you so much for joining us today.

VIRI: Oh, thank you for having me. I’m excited to be here.

BEN: And I always like to start with a fun question. So senior year of high school, what music were you listening to?

VIRI: Oh my goodness. Well, I’m class of 2000, so I mean. I don’t even know how to answer this question because I listen to everything.

I’m like one of those people I was raving, so I had techno in my system. I have a lot of like, um. The, like, everything from Baby Ann to Tsta. Like, there was like, there was a lot, um, Oak and like Paul Oak and Full, there was like techno. Okay. Then there was folk music because I loved, so Ani DeFranco was the soundtrack of my life, you know, and I was listening to Tori Amos and all that.

Okay. And then there’s like weird things that slip in, like fuel, you know, like whatever. Who was staying? I don’t remember when they came out. But the point is there was like all these intersections, whether I was raving or I was at Warp Tour or I was like at Lili Fair, all of those things were happening in my music taste and whenever I get to hear those songs and like that, that back late nineties, um, rolling into the Ox.

Yeah.

BEN: I love the Venn diagram of techno and folk music.

VIRI: Yeah.

BEN: Yeah. What, are you a fan of the film inside Lou and Davis?

VIRI: Uh, yes. Yes. I need to watch it again. I watched it once and now you’re saying it, and I’m like writing it on my to-dos,

BEN: but yes, it, it, the first time I saw it. I saw in the East Village, actually in the theater, and I just, I’m a Cohen Brothers fan, but I didn’t love it.

Mm-hmm. But it, it stayed on my mind and yeah. Now I probably rewatch it once a year. It might, yeah. In my, in my, on my list, it might be their best film. It’s so good. Oh,

VIRI: now I’m gonna, I’m putting it on my, I’m literally writing it on my, um, post-it to watch it.

BEN: I’m

VIRI: always looking for things to watch in the evening.

BEN: What, what are some of the docs that kind of lit your flame, that really turned you on?

VIRI: Uh, this is one of those questions that I, full transparency, get very embarrassed about because I actually did not have a path of documentary set for me from my film Loving Passion. I mean, when I graduated film school, the one thing I knew I didn’t wanna do was documentary, which is hilarious now.

Hilarious. My parents laugh about it regularly. Um. Because I had not had a good documentary education. I mean, no one had shown me docs that felt immersive and cinematic. I mean, I had seen docs that were smart, you know, that, but, but they felt, for me, they didn’t feel as emotional. They felt sterile. Like there were just, I had seen the most cliched, basic, ignorant read of doc.

And so I, you know, I dreamed of making space epics and giant studio films. Contact was my favorite movie. I so like there was everything that about, you know, when I was in film school, you know, I was going to see those movies and I was just chasing that high, that sensory high, that cinematic experience.

And I didn’t realize that documentaries could be. So it’s not, you know, ever since then have I seen docs that I think are incredible. Sure. But when I think about my origin tale, I think I was always chasing a pretty. Not classic, but you know, familiar cinematic lens of the time that I was raised in. But it was fiction.

It was fiction movies. And I think when I found Docs, you know, when I was, the very long story short of that is I was looking for a job and had a friend who made docs and I was like, put me in coach, you know, as an editor. And she was like, you’ve never cut a documentary before. I love you. Uh, but not today.

But no, she hired me as an archival producer and then I worked my way up and I said, no, okay, blah, blah, blah. So that path showed me, like I started working on documentaries, seeing more documentaries, and then I was always chasing that cinema high, which by the way, documentaries do incredibly, you know, and have for many decades.

But I hadn’t met them yet. And I think that really informs. What I love to do in Docs, you know, I mean, I think like I, there’s a lot that I like to, but one thing that is very important to me is creating that journey, creating this, you know, following the emotion, creating big moments, you know, that can really consume us.

And it’s not just about, I mean, not that there are films that are important to me, just about arguments and unpacking and education. At the same time, we have the opportunity to do so much more as storytellers and docs and we are doing it anyway. So that’s, that’s, you know, when, it’s funny, when light my fire, I immediately think of all the fiction films I love and not docs, which I feel ashamed about.

‘cause now I know, you know, I know so many incredible documentary filmmakers that light my fire. Um, but my, my impulse is still in the fiction world.

BEN: Used a word that it’s such an important word, which is immersion. And I, I first saw you speak, um, a week or two ago at the doc NYC Pro panel for editors, documentary editors about the perfect neighbor, which I wanna talk about in a bit because talk about a completely immersive experience.

But thank you first, uh, contact, what, what is it about contact that you responded to?

VIRI: Oh my goodness. I, well, I watched it growing up. I mean, with my dad, we’re both sci-fi people. Like he got me into that. I mean, we’re both, I mean he, you know, I was raised by him so clearly it stuck around contact for me. I think even to this day is still my favorite movie.

And it, even though I’m kind of a style nut now, and it’s, and it feels classic in its approach, but. There’s something about all the layers at play in that film. Like there is this crazy big journey, but it’s also engaging in a really smart conversation, right? Between science and faith and some of the greatest lines from that film.

Are lines that you can say to yourself on the daily basis to remind yourself of like, where we are, what we’re doing, why we’re doing it, even down to the most basic, you know, funny, I thought the world was what we make it, you know, it’s like all of these lines from contact that stick with me when he says, you know, um, did you love your father?

Prove it. You know, it’s like, what? What is proof? You know? So there were so many. Moments in that film. And for me, you know, climbing into that vessel and traveling through space and when she’s floating and she sees the galaxy and she says they should have sent a poet, you know, and you’re thinking about like the layers of this experience and how the aliens spoilers, um, you know, show up and talk to her in that conversation herself.

Anyways, it’s one of those. For me, kind of love letters to the human race and earth and what makes us tick and the complexity of identity all in this incredible journey that feels so. Big yet is boiled down to Jody Foster’s very personal narrative, right? Like, it’s like all, it just checks so many boxes and still feels like a spectacle.

And so the balance, uh, you know, I, I do feel my instincts normally are to zoom in and feel incredibly personal. And I love kind of small stories that represent so much and that film in so many ways does that, and all the other things too. So I’m like, how did we get there? But I really, I can’t, I don’t know what it is.

I can’t shake that film. It’s not, you know, there’s a lot of films that have informed, you know, things I love and take me out to the fringe and take me to the mainstream and, you know, on my candy and, you know, all those things. And yet that, that film checks all the boxes for me.

BEN: I remember seeing it in the theaters and you know everything you said.

Plus you have a master filmmaker at the absolute top Oh god. Of his class. Oh my,

VIRI: yes,

BEN: yes. I mean, that mirror shot. Know, know, I mean, my jaw was on the ground because this is like, right, right. As CGI is started. Yes. So, I mean, I’m sure you’ve seen the behind the scenes of how they

VIRI: Yeah.

BEN: Incredible.

VIRI: Years.

Years. We would be sitting around talking about how no one could figure out how he did it for years. Anybody I met who saw contact would be like, but how did they do the mirror shot? Like I nobody had kind of, yeah. Anyways, it was incredible. And you know, it’s, and I,

BEN: I saw, I saw it just with some civilians, right?

Like the mirror shot. They’re like, what are you talking about? The what? Huh?

VIRI: Oh, it’s so funny you bring that up because right now, you know, I went a friend, I have a friend who’s a super fan of Wicked. We went for Wicked for Good, and there is a sequence in that film where they do the mirror jot over and over and over.

It’s like the, it’s like the. Special device of that. It feels that way. That it’s like the special scene with Glenda and her song. And someone next to me was sitting there and I heard him under his breath go,

wow.

Like he was really having a cinematic. And I wanted to lean over and be like, watch contact, like, like the first time.

I saw it was there and now it’s like people have, you know, unlocked it and are utilizing it. But it was, so, I mean, also, let’s talk about the opening sequence of contact for a second. Phenomenal. Because I, I don’t think I design, I’ve ever seen anything in cinema in my life like that. I if for anybody who’s listening to this, even if you don’t wanna watch the entire movie, which of course I’m obviously pitching you to do.

Watch the opening. Like it, it’s an incredible experience and it holds up and it’s like when, yeah. Talk about attention to detail and the love of sound design and the visuals, but the patience. You wanna talk about trusting an audience, sitting in a theater and that silence Ah, yeah. Heaven film heaven.

BEN: I mean, that’s.

That’s one of the beautiful things that cinema does in, in the theater. Right. It just, you’re in, you’re immersed in this case, you know, pulling away from earth through outer space at however many, you know, hundreds of millions of miles an hour. You can’t get that anywhere else. Yeah. That feeling,

VIRI: that film is like all the greatest hits reel of.

Storytelling gems. It’s like the adventure, the love, the, you know, the, the complicated kind of smart dialogue that we can all understand what it’s saying, but it’s, but it’s doing it through the experience of the story, you know, and then someone kind of knocks it outta the park without one quote where you gasp and it’s really a phenomenal.

Thing. Yeah. I, I’ve never, I haven’t talked about contact as much in ages. Thank you for this.

BEN: It’s a great movie. It’s there, and there were, there were two other moments in that movie, again when I saw it, where it’s just like, this is a, a master storyteller. One is, yeah. When they’re first like trying to decode the image.

Mm-hmm. And you see a swastika.

VIRI: Yeah. Oh yeah. And you’re like,

BEN: what the, what the f**k? That was like a total left turn. Right. But it’s, it’s, and I think it’s, it’s from the book, but it’s like the movie is, it’s, it’s, you know, it’s asking these questions and then you’re like totally locked in, not expecting.

You know, anything from World War II to be a part of this. And of course in the movie the, go ahead.

VIRI: Yeah, no, I was gonna say, but the seed of that

BEN: is in the first shot,

VIRI: scientifically educating. Oh yes. Well, the sensory experience, I mean, you’re like, your heart stops and you get full Bo chills and then you’re scared and you know, you’re thinking a lot of things.

And then when you realize the science of it, like the first thing that was broadcast, like that type of understanding the stakes of our history in a space narrative. And, you know, it, it just, there’s so much. You know, unfurling in your mind. Yeah. In that moment that is both baked in from your lived experiences and what you know about the world, and also unlocking, so what’s possible and what stakes have already been outside of this fiction, right?

Mm-hmm. Outside of the book, outside of the telling of this, the reality of what has already happened in the facts of it. Yeah. It’s really amazing.

BEN: And the other moment we’re just, and now, you know, being a filmmaker, you look back and I’m sure this is, it falls neatly and at the end of the second act. But when Tom scars, you know, getting ready to go up on the thing and then there’s that terrorist incident or whatever, and the whole thing just collapses, the whole, um, sphere collapses and you just like, wait, what?

Is that what’s gonna happen now?

VIRI: Yeah, like a hundred million dollars in it. It does too. It just like clink pun. Yeah. Everything.

BEN: Yeah.

VIRI: Think they’ll never build it again. I mean, you just can’t see what’s coming after that and how it went down, who it happened to. I mean, that’s the magic of that film, like in the best films.

Are the ones where every scene, every character, it has so much going into it. Like if somebody paused the film there and said, wait, what’s happening? And you had to explain it to them, it would take the entire movie to do it, you know, which you’re like, that’s, we’re in it. Yeah. Anyway, so that’s a great moment too, where I didn’t, and I remember when they reveal spoilers again, uh, that there’s another one, but when he is zooming in, you know, and you’re like, oh, you know, it just, it’s, yeah.

Love it. It’s wonderful. Now, I’m gonna watch that tonight too. I

BEN: know, I, I haven’t probably, I probably haven’t watched that movie in 10 years, but now I gotta watch it again.

VIRI: Yeah.

BEN: Um, okay, so let’s talk doc editing. Yes. What, um, I always like to, I heard a quote once that something about when, when critics get together, they talk meaning, and when artists get together, they talk paint.

So let’s talk paint for a second. What do you edit on?

VIRI: I cut mainly on Avid and Premier. I, I do think of myself as more of an avid lady, but there’s been a lot of probably the films that have done the most. I cut on Premier, and by that I mean like, it’s interesting that I always assume Avid is my standard yet that most of the things that I love most, I cut on Premiere right now.

I, I toggle between them both multiple projects on both, on both, um, programs and they’re great. I love them equal for different reasons. I’m a

BEN: big fan of Avid. I think it gets kind of a, a bad rap. Um, what, what are the benefits of AVID versus pr? I’ve never used Premier, but I was a big final cut seven person.

So everybody has said that. Premier kind of emulates Final cut. Seven.

VIRI: I never made a past seven. It’s funny, I recently heard people are cutting on Final Cut Pro again, which A adds off. But I really, because I thought that ship had sailed when they went away from seven. So with, I will say like the top line things for me, you know, AVID forces you to control every single thing you’re doing, which I actually think it can feel hindering and intimidating to some folks, but actually is highly liberating once you learn how to use it, which is great.

It’s also wonderful for. Networks. I mean, you can send a bin as a couple kilobyte. Like the idea that the shared workflow, when I’ve been on series or features with folks, it’s unbeatable. Uh, you know, it can be cumbersome in like getting everything in there and stuff like that and all, and, but, but it kind of forces you to set up yourself for success, for online, for getting everything out.

So, and there’s a lot of good things. So then on conversely Premier. It’s amazing ‘cause you can hit the ground running. You just drag everything in and you go. The challenge of course is like getting it out. Sometimes that’s when you kind of hit the snaps. But I am impressed when I’m working with multiple frame rates, frame sizes, archival for many decades that I can just bring it into Premier and go and just start cutting.

And you know, also it has a lot of intuitive nature with other Adobe Pro, you know, uh, applications and all of this, which is great. There’s a lot of shortcuts. I mean, they’re getting real. Slick with a lot of their new features, which I have barely met. I’m like an archival, I’m like a ancient picture editor lady from the past, like people always teach me things.

They’re just like, you know, you could just, and I’m like, what? But I, so I guess I, you know, I don’t have all the tech guru inside talk on that, but I think that when I’m doing short form, it does feel like it’s always premier long form. Always seems to avid. Team stuff feels avid, you know, feature, low budge features where they’re just trying to like make ends meet.

Feel Premier, and I think there’s an enormous accessibility with Premier in that regard. But I still feel like Avid is a studios, I mean, a, a studio, well, who knows? I’m cut in the studios. But an industry standard in a lot of ways it still feels that way.

BEN: Yeah, for sure. How did you get into editing?

VIRI: I went to film school and while I was there, I really like, we did everything.

You know, we learned how to shoot, we learned everything. Something about editing was really thrilling to me. I, I loved the puzzle of it, you know, I loved putting pieces together. We did these little funny exercises where we would take a movie and cut our own trailer and, you know, or they’d give us all the same footage and we cut our scene from it and.

It

was really incredible to see how different all those scenes were, and I loved finding ways to multipurpose footage, make an entire tone feel differently. You know, like if we’re cutting a scene about a bank robbery, like how do you all of a sudden make it feel, you know, like romantic, you know, or whatever.

It’s like how do we kind of play with genre and tone and how much you can reinvent stuff, but it was really structure and shifting things anyways, it really, I was drawn to it and I had fun editing my things and helping other people edit it. I did always dream of directing, which I am doing now and I’m excited about, but I realized that my way in with editing was like learning how to do a story in that way, and it will always be my language.

I think even as I direct or write or anything, I’m really imagining it as if I’m cutting it, and that could change every day, but like when I’m out shooting. I always feel like it’s my superpower because when I’m filming it’s like I know what I have and how I’ll use it and I can change that every hour.

But the idea of kind of knowing when you’ve got it or what it could be and having that reinvented is really incredible. So got into edit. So left film school. And then thought and loved editing, but wasn’t like, I’m gonna be an editor. I was still very much on a very over, you know what? I guess I would say like, oh, I was gonna say Overhead, broad bird’s eye.

I was like, no, I’m gonna go make movies and then I’ll direct ‘em and onward, but work, you know, worked in post houses, overnights, all that stuff and PA and try made my own crappy movies and you know, did a lot of that stuff and. It kept coming back to edit. I mean, I kept coming back to like assistant jobs and cutting, cutting, cutting, cutting, and it just felt like something that I had a skill for, but I didn’t know what my voice was in that.

Like I didn’t, it took me a long time to realize I could have a voice as an editor, which was so dumb, and I think I wasted so much time thinking that like I was only search, you know, like that. I didn’t have that to bring. That editing was just about. Taking someone else’s vision. You know, I’m not a set of hands like I’m an artist as well.

I think we all are as editors and I was very grateful that not, not too long into, you know, when I found the doc path and I went, okay, I think this is where I, I can rock this and I’m pretty excited about it. I ended up working with a small collection of directors who all. Respected that collaboration.

Like they were excited for what I do and what I bring to it and felt, it made me feel like we were peers working together, which was my fantasy with how film works. And I feel like isn’t always the constant, but I’ve been spoiled and now it’s what I expect and what I want to create for others. And you know, I hope there’s more of us out there.

So it’s interesting because my path to editing. Was like such a, a practical one and an emotional one, and an ego one, and a, you know, it’s like, it’s like all these things that have led me to where I am and the perfect neighbor is such a culmination of all of that. For sure.

BEN: Yeah. And, and I want to get into it, uh, first the eternal question.

Yeah. Film school worth it or not worth it?

VIRI: I mean, listen, I. We’ll share this. I think I’ve shared this before, but relevant to the fact I’ll share it because I think we can all learn from each other’s stories. I did not want to go to college. Okay? I wanted to go straight to la. I was like, I’m going to Hollywood.

I wanted to make movies ever since I was a kid. This is what I’m gonna do, period. I come from a family of teachers. All of my parents are teachers. My parents divorced. I have my stepparent is teacher, like everybody’s a teacher. And they were like, no. And not just a teacher. My mom and my dad are college professors, so they were like college, college, college.

I sabotaged my SATs. I did not take them. I did not want to go to college. I was like, I am going to Los Angeles. Anyways, uh, my parents applied for me. To an accredited arts college that, and they were like, it’s a three year try semester. You’ll shoot on film, you can do your, you know, and they submitted my work from high school when I was in TV production or whatever.

Anyways, they got me into this little college, and when I look back, I know that that experience was really incredible. I mean, while I was there, I was counting the days to leave, but I know that it gave me not only the foundation of. You know, learning, like, I mean, we were learning film at the time. I don’t know what it’s like now, but like we, you know, I learned all the different mediums, which was great on a vocational level, you know, but on top of that, they’re just throwing cans of film at us and we’re making all the mistakes we need to make to get where we need to get.

And the other thing that’s happening is there’s also like the liberal arts, this is really, sounds like a teacher’s kid, what I’m about to say. But like, there’s also just the level of education To be smarter and learn more about the world, to inform your work doesn’t mean that you can’t. You can’t skip college and just go out there and find your, and learn what you wanna learn in the stories that you journey out to tell.

So I feel really torn on this answer because half of me is like. No, you don’t need college. Like just go out and make stuff and learn what you wanna learn. And then the other half of me have to acknowledge that, like, I think there was a foundation built in that experience, in that transitional time of like semi-structure, semi independence, you know, like all the things that come with college.

It’s worth it, but it’s expensive as heck. And I certainly, by the time I graduated, film wasn’t even a thing and I had to learn digital out in the world. And. I think you can work on a film set and learn a hell of a lot more than you’ll ever learn in a classroom. And at the same time, I really love learning.

So, you know, my, I think I, my parents were right, they know it ‘cause I went back to grad school, so that was a shock for them. But I think, but yeah, so I, I get, what I would say is, it really is case, this is such a cop out of an answer, case by case basis. Ask yourself, you know, if you need that time and if you, if you aren’t gonna go.

You need to put in the work. You have to really like go out, go on those sets, work your tail off, seek out the books, read the stuff, you know, and no one’s gonna hand you anything. And my stories are a hell of a lot, I think smarter and eloquent because of the education I had. Yeah.

BEN: So you shuttle on, what was the school, by the way?

VIRI: Well, it was called the, it was called the International Fine Arts College. It no longer exists because Art Institute bought it. It’s now called the Miami International University of Art and Design, and they bought it the year I graduated. So I went to this tiny little arts college, uh, but graduated from this AI university, which my parents were like, okay.

Um, but we were, it was a tiny little college owned by this man who would invite all of us over to his mansion for brunch every year. I mean, it was very strange, but cool. And it was mainly known for, I think fashion design and interior design. So the film kids, we all kind of had, it was an urban campus in Miami and we were all like kind of in a wado building on the side, and it was just kind of a really funky, misfit feeling thing that I thought was, now when I look back, I think was like super cool.

I mean, they threw cans of film at us from the very first semester. There was no like, okay, be here for two years and earn your opportunity. We were making stuff right away and all of our teachers. All of our professors were people who were working in the field, like they were ones who were, you know, writing.

They had written films and fun fact of the day, my, my cinematography professor was Sam Beam from Iron and Wine. If anybody knows Iron and Wine, like there’s like, there’s like we, we had crazy teachers that we now realize were people who were just probably trying to pay their bills while they were on their journey, and then they broke out and did their thing after we were done.

BEN: Okay, so shooting on film. Yeah. What, um, was it 16 or 35? 16. And then how are you doing sound? No, not

VIRI: 35, 16. Yeah. I mean, we had sound on Dax, you know, like we were recording all the mm-hmm. Oh, when we did the film. Yeah, yeah. Separate. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We did the Yeah. Syncs sound

BEN: into a We did a,

VIRI: yeah, we did, we did one.

We shot on a Bolex, I think, if I remember it right. It did like a tiny, that probably was eight, you know? But the point is we did that on. The flatbed. After that, we would digitize and we would cut on media 100, which was like this. It was, I think it was called the, I’m pretty sure it was called Media 100.

It was like this before avid, you know. A more archaic editing digital program that, so we did the one, the one cut and splice version of our, our tiny little films. And then we weren’t on kind of beautiful steam backs or anything. It was like, you know, it was much, yeah, smaller. But we had, but you know, we raced in the changing tents and we did, you know, we did a lot of film, love and fun.

And I will tell you for your own amusement that we were on set once with somebody making their short. The girl at the AC just grabbed, grabbed the film, what’s, oh my God, I can’t even believe I’m forgetting the name of it. But, um, whatever the top of the camera grabbed it and thought she had unlocked it, like unhinged it and just pulled it out after all the film just come spooling out on set.

And we were like, everybody just froze and we were just standing there. It was like a bad sketch comedy, like we’re all just standing there in silence with like, just like rolling out of the camera. I, I’ll never forget it.

BEN: Nightmare. Nightmare. I, you know, you said something earlier about when you’re shooting your own stuff.

Being an editor is a little bit of a superpower because you know, oh, I’m gonna need this, I’m gonna need that. And, and for me it’s similar. It’s especially similar. Like, oh, we didn’t get this. I need to get an insert of this ‘cause I know I’m probably gonna want that. I also feel like, you know, I came up, um, to instill photography, 35 millimeter photography, and then when I got into filmmaking it was, um, digital, uh, mini DV tape.

So, but I feel like the, um, the structure of having this, you know, you only have 36 shots in a still camera, so you’ve gotta be sure that that carried over even to my shooting on digital, of being meticulous about setting up the shot, knowing what I need. Whereas, you know, younger people who have just been shooting digital their whole lives that just shoot everything and we’ll figure it out later.

Yeah. Do do you, do you feel you had that Advant an advantage? Yes. Or sitting on film gave you some advantages?

VIRI: I totally, yes. I also am a firm believer and lover of intention. Like I don’t this whole, like we could just snap a shot and then punch in and we’ll, whatever. Like it was my worst nightmare when people started talking about.

We’ll shoot scenes and something, it was like eight K, so we can navigate the frame. And I was like, wait, you’re not gonna move the camera again. Like, it just, it was terrifying. So, and we passed that, but now the AI stuff is getting dicey, but the, I think that you. I, I am pretty romantic about the hands-on, I like books with paper, you know, like, I like the can, the cinematographer to capture, even if it’s digital.

And those benefits of the digital for me is like, yes, letting it roll, but it’s not about cheating frames, you know, like it’s about, it’s about the accessibility of being able to capture things longer, or the technology to move smoother. These are good things. But it’s not about, you know, simplifying the frame in something that we need to, that is still an art form.

Like that’s a craft. That’s a craft. And you could argue that what we choose, you know, photographers, the choice they make in Photoshop is the new version of that is very different. Like my friends who are dps, you know, there’s always like glasses the game, right? The lenses are the game. It’s like, it’s not about filters In posts, that was always our nightmare, right?

The old fix it and post everybody’s got their version of their comic strip that says Fix it and post with everything exploding. It’s like, no, that’s not what this is about. And so, I mean, I, I think I’ll always be. Trying to, in my brain fight the good fight for the craftiness of it all because I’m so in love with everything.

I miss film. I’m sad. I miss that time. I mean, I think I, it still exists and hopefully someday I’ll have the opportunity that somebody will fund something that I’m a part of that is film. And at the same time there’s somewhere in between that still feels like it’s honoring that freshness. And, and then now there’s like the, yeah, the new generation.

It’s, you know, my kids don’t understand that I have like. Hand them a disposable camera. We’ll get them sometimes for fun and they will also like click away. I mean, the good thing you have to wind it so they can’t, they can’t ruin it right away, but they’ll kind of can’t fathom that idea. And um, and I love that, where you’re like, we only get 24 shots.

Yeah, it’s very

BEN: cool. So you said you felt the perfect neighbor, kind of, that was the culmination of all your different skills in the craft of editing. Can you talk a little bit about that?

VIRI: Yes. I think that I spent, I think all the films, it’s like every film that I’ve had the privilege of being a part of, I have taken something like, there’s like some tool that was added to the tool belt.

Maybe it had to do with like structure or style or a specific build to a quote or, or a device or a mechanism in the film, whatever it is. It was the why of why that felt right. That would kind of be the tool in the tool belt. It wouldn’t just be like, oh, I learned how to use this new toy. It was like, no, no.

There’s some kind of storytelling, experience, technique, emotion that I felt that Now I’m like, okay, how do I add that in to everything I do? And I want every film to feel specific and serve what it’s doing. But I think a lot of that sent me in a direction of really always approaching a project. Trying to meet it for like the, the work that only it can do.

You know, it’s like, it’s not about comps. It’s not about saying like, oh, we’re making a film that’s like, fill in the blank. I’m like, how do we plug and play the elements we have into that? It’s like, no, what are the elements we have and how do we work with them? And that’s something I fought for a lot on all the films I’ve been a part of.

Um, and by that I mean fight for it. I just mean reminding everybody always in the room that we can trust the audience, you know, that we can. That, that we should follow the materials what, and work with what we have first, and then figure out what could be missing and not kind of IME immediately project what we think it needs to be, or it should be.

It’s like, no, let’s discover what it is and then that way we will we’ll appreciate. Not only what we’re doing in the process, but ultimately we don’t even realize what it can do for what it is if we’ve never seen it before, which is thrilling. And a lot of those have been a part of, there have been pockets of being able to do that.

And then usually near the end there’s a little bit of math thing that happens. You know, folks come in the room and they’re trying to, you know, but what if, and then, but other people did. Okay, so all you get these notes and you kind of reel it in a little bit and you find a delicate balance with the perfect neighbor.

When Gita came to me and we realized, you know, we made that in a vacuum like that was we, we made that film independently. Very little money, like tiny, tiny little family of the crew. It was just me and her, you know, like when we were kind of cutting it together and then, and then there’s obviously producers to kind of help and build that platform and, and give great feedback along the way.

But it allowed us to take huge creative risks in a really exciting way. And I hate that I even have to use the word risks because it sounds like, but, but I do, because I think that the industry is pushing against, you know, sometimes the spec specificity of things, uh, in fear of. Not knowing how it will be received.

And I fantasize about all of us being able to just watch something and seeing how we feel about it and not kind of needing to know what it is before we see it. So, okay, here comes the perfect neighbor. GTA says to me early on, like, I think. I think it can be told through all these materials, and I was like, it will be told through like I was determined and I held us very strict to it.

I mean, as we kind of developed the story and hit some challenges, it was like, this is the fun. Let’s problem solve this. Let’s figure out what it means. But that also came within the container of all this to kind of trust the audience stuff that I’ve been trying to repeat to myself as a mantra so I don’t fall into the trappings that I’m watching so much work do.

With this one, we knew it was gonna be this raw approach and by composing it completely of the evidence, it would ideally be this kind of undeniable way to tell the story, which I realized was only possible because of the wealth of material we had for this tracked so much time that, you know, took the journey.

It did, but at the same time, honoring that that’s all we needed to make it happen. So all those tools, I think it was like. A mixed bag of things that I found that were effective, things that I’ve been frustrated by in my process. Things that I felt radical about with, you know, that I’ve been like trying to scream in, into the void and nobody’s listening.

You know, it’s like all of that because I, you know, I think I’ve said this many times. The perfect neighbor was not my full-time job. I was on another film that couldn’t have been more different. So I think in a, in a real deep seated, subconscious way, it was in conversation with that. Me trying to go as far away from that as possible and in understanding what could be possible, um, with this film.

So yeah, it’s, it’s interesting. It’s like all the tools from the films, but it was also like where I was in my life, what had happened to me, you know, and all of those. And by that I mean in a process level, you know, working in film, uh, and that and yes, and the values and ethics that I honor and wanna stick to and protect in the.

Personal lens and all of that. So I think, I think it, it, it was a culmination of many things, but in that approach that people feel that has resonated that I’m most proud of, you know, and what I brought to the film, I think that that is definitely, like, I don’t think I could have cut this film the way I did at any other time before, you know, I think I needed all of those experiences to get here.

BEN: Oh, there’s so much there and, and there’s something kind of the. The first part of what you were saying, I’ve had this experience, I’m curious if you’ve had this experience. I sort of try to prepare filmmakers to be open to this, that when you’re working with something, especially Doc, I think Yeah. More so Doc, at a certain point the project is gonna start telling you what it wants to be if you, if you’re open to it.

Yes. Um, but it’s such a. Sometimes I call it the spooky process. Like it’s such a ephemeral thing to say, right? Like, ‘cause you know, the other half of editing is just very technical. Um, but this is like, there’s, there’s this thing that’s gonna happen where it’s gonna start talking to you. Do you have that experience?

VIRI: Yes. Oh, yes. I’ve also been a part of films that, you know, they set it out to make it about one person. And once we watched all the footage, it is about somebody else. I mean, there’s, you know, those things where you kind of have to meet the spooky part, you know, in, in kind of honoring that concept that you’re bringing up is really that when a film is done, I can’t remember cutting it.

Like, I don’t, I mean, I remember it and I remember if you ask me why I did something, I’ll tell you. I mean, I’m very, I am super. Precious to a fault about an obsessive. So like you could pause any film I’ve been a part of and I’ll tell you exactly why I used that shot and what, you know, I can do that. But the instinct to like just grab and go when I’m just cutting and I’m flowing.

Yeah, that’s from something else. I don’t know what that is. I mean, I don’t. People tell me that I’m very fast, which is, I don’t know if that’s a good or a bad thing, but I think it really comes from knowing that the job is to make choices and you can always go back and try different things, but this choose your own adventure novel is like just going, and I kind of always laugh about when I look back and I’m like, whoa, have that happen.

Like, you know, like I don’t even. And I have my own versions of imposter syndrome where I refill mens and I’m like, oh, got away with that one. Um, or every time a new project begins, I’m like, do I have any magic left in the tank? Um, but, but trusting the process, you know, to what you’re socking about is a really important way to free yourself and the film to.

Discover what it is. I think nowadays because of the algorithm and the, you know, I mean, it’s changing right now, so we’ll see where, how it recalibrates. But for a, for a while, over these past years, the expectations have, it’s like shifted where they come before the film is like, it’s like you create your decks and your sizzles and you write out your movie and you, and there is no time for discovery.

And when it happens. It’s like undeniable that you needed to break it because it’s like you keep hitting the same impasse and you can’t solve it and then you’re like, oh, that’s because we have to step outta the map. But I fear that many works have suffered, you know, that they have like followed the map and missed an opportunity.

And so, you know, and for me as an editor, it’s always kinda a red flag when someone’s like, and here’s the written edit. I’m like, what? Now let’s watch the footage. I wanna know where There’s always intention when you set up, but as people always say, the edit is kind of the last. The last step of the storytelling process.

‘cause so much can change there. So there is, you know, there it will reveal itself. I do get nerdy about that. I think a film knows what it is. I remember when I was shooting my first film called Born to Play, that film, we were. At the championship, you know, the team was not, thought that they were gonna win the whole thing.

We’re at the championship and someone leaned over to me and they said, you know, it’s funny when a story knows it’s being filmed. And I was like, ah. I think about that all the time because now I think about that in the edit bay. I’m like, okay, you tell me, you know, what do you wanna do? And then you kind of like, you match frame back to something and all of a sudden you’ve opened a portal and you’re in like a whole new theme.

It’s very cool. You put, you know, you put down a different. A different music temp, music track, and all of a sudden you’re making a new movie. I mean, it’s incredible. It’s like, it really is real world magic. It’s so much fun. Yeah,

BEN: it is. It’s a blast. The, so, uh, I saw you at the panel at Doc NYC and then I went that night or the next night and watched Perfect Neighbor blew me away, and you said something on the panel that then blew me away again when I thought about it, which is.

I think, correct me if I’m wrong, all of the audio is synced

VIRI: Yeah. To the footage.

BEN: That, to me is the big, huge, courageous decision you made.

VIRI: I feel like I haven’t said that enough. I don’t know if folks understand, and it’s mainly for the edit of that night, like the, I mean, it’s all, it’s, it’s all that, but it was important.

That the, that the sound would be synced to the shock that you’re seeing. So when you’re hearing a cop, you know, a police officer say, medics, we need medics. If we’re in a dashboard cam, that’s when it was, you know, echoing from the dashboard. Like that’s what, so anything you’re hearing is synced. When you hear something coming off from the per when they’re walking by and you hear someone yelling something, you know, it’s like all of that.

I mean, that was me getting really strict about the idea that we were presenting this footage for what it was, you know, that it was the evidence that you are watching, as you know, for lack of a better term, unbiased, objectively as possible. You know, we’re presenting this for what it is. I, of course, I have to cut down these calls.

I am making choices like that. That is happening. We are, we are. Composing a narrative, you know, there, uh, that stuff is happening. But to create, but to know that what you’re hearing, I’m not applying a different value to the frame on, on a very practical syn sound way. You know, it’s like I’m not gonna reappropriate frames.

Of course, in the grand scheme of the narrative flow with the emotions, you know, the genre play of this horror type film, and there’s a lot happening, but anything you were hearing, you know, came from that frame. Yeah.

BEN: That’s amazing. How did you organize the footage and the files initially?

VIRI: Well, Gita always likes to laugh ‘cause she is, she calls herself my first ae, which is true.

I had no a, you know, I had, she was, she had gotten all that material, you know, she didn’t get that material to make a film. They had originally, this is a family friend who died and when this all happened, they went down and gathered this material to make a case, to make sure that Susan didn’t get out. To make sure this was not forgotten.

You know, to be able to utilize. Protect the family. And so there was, at first it was kind of just gathering that. And then once she got it, she realized that it spanned two years, you know, I mean, she, she popped, she was an editor for many, many years, an incredible editor. She popped it into a system, strung it all out, sunk up a lot of it to see what was there, and realized like, there’s something here.

And that’s when she called me. So she had organized it, you know, by date, you know, and that, that originally. Strung out a lot of it. And then, so when I came in, it was just kind of like this giant collection of stuff, like folders with the nine one calls. How long was the strung out? Well, I didn’t know this.

Well, I mean, we have about 30 hours of content. It wasn’t one string out, you know, it was like there were the call, all the calls, and then the 9 1 1 calls, the dash cams. The ring cams. Okay. Excuse me. The canvassing interviews, audio only content. So many, many. Was about 30 hours of content, which honestly, as most of us editors know, is not actually a lot I’ve cut.

You know, it’s usually, we have tons more than that. I mean, I, I’ve cut decades worth of material and thousands of hours, you know, but 30 hours of this type of material is very specific, you know, that’s a, that’s its own challenge. So, so yeah. So the first, so it was organized. It was just organized by call.

Interview, you know, some naming conventions in there. Some things we had to sync up. You know, the 9 1 1 calls would overlap. You could hear it in the nine one one call center. You would hear someone, one person who called in, and then you’d hear in the background, like the conversation of another call. It’s in the film.

There’s one moment where you can hear they’re going as fast as they can, like from over, from a different. So there was so much overlap. So there was some syncing that we kind of had to do by ear, by signals, by, you know, and there’s some time coding on the, on the cameras, but that would go off, which was strange.

They weren’t always perfect. So, but that, that challenge unto itself would help us kind of really screen the footage to a finite detail, right. To like, have, to really understand where everybody is and what they’re doing when,

BEN: yeah. You talked about kind of at the end, you know, different people come in, there’s, you know, maybe you need to reach a certain length or so on and so forth.

How do you, um, handle notes? What’s your advice to young filmmakers as far as navigating that process? Great question.

VIRI: I am someone who, when I was a kid, I had trouble with authority. I wasn’t like a total rebel. I think I was like a really goody goody too. She was borderline. I mean, I had my moments, but growing up in, in a journey, an artistic journey that requires you to kind of fall in love with getting critiques and honing things and working in teams.

And I had some growing pains for a long time with notes. I mean, my impulse was always, no. A note would come and I’d go, no, excuse me. Go to bed, wake up. And then I would find my way in and that would be great. That bed marinating time has now gone away, thank goodness. And I have realized that. Not all notes, but some notes have really changed the trajectory of a project in the most powerful waves.

And it doesn’t always the, to me, what I always like to tell folks is it’s, the notes aren’t really the issues. It’s what? It’s the solutions people offer. You know? It’s like you can bring up what you’re having an issue with. It’s when people kind of are like, you know what I would do? Or you know what you think you should do, or you could do this.

You’re like, you don’t have to listen to that stuff. I mean, you can. You can if you have the power to filter it. Some of us do, some of us don’t. I’ve worked with people who. Take all the notes. Notes and I have to, we have to, I kind of have to help filter and then I’ve worked with people who can very quickly go need that, don’t need that need, that, don’t need that.

Hear that, don’t know how to deal with that yet. You know, like if, like, we can kind of go through it. So one piece of advice I would say is number one, you don’t have to take all the notes and that’s, that’s, that’s an honoring my little veary. Wants to stand by the vision, you know, and and fight for instincts.

Okay. But the second thing is the old classic. It’s the note behind the note. It’s really trying to understand where that note’s coming from. Who gave it what they’re looking for? You know, like is that, is it a preference note or is it a fact? You know, like is it something that’s really structurally a problem?

Is it something that’s really about that moment in the film? Or is it because of all the events that led to that moment that it’s not doing the work you think it should? You know, the, the value is a complete piece. So what I really love about notes now is I get excited for the feedback and then I get really excited about trying to decipher.

What they mean, not just taking them as like my to-do list. That’s not, you know, that’s not the best way to approach it. It’s really to get excited about getting to actually hear feedback from an audience member. Now, don’t get me wrong, an audience member is usually. A producer in the beginning, and they have, they may have their own agenda, and that’s something to know too.

And maybe their agenda can influence the film in an important direction for the work that they and we all wanted to do. Or it can help at least discern where their notes are coming from. And then we can find our own emotional or higher level way to get into solving that note. But, you know, there’s still, I still get notes that make me mad.

I still get notes where I get sad that I don’t think anybody was really. Watching it or understanding it, you know, there’s always a thought, you know, that happens too. And to be able to read those notes and still find that like one kernel in there, or be able to read them and say, no kernels. But, but, but by doing that, you’re now creating the conviction of what you’re doing, right?

Like what to do and what not to do. Carrie, equal value, you know, so you can read all these notes and go, oh, okay, so I am doing this niche thing, but I believe in it and. And I’m gonna stand by it. Or like, this one person got it and these five didn’t. And I know that the rules should be like majority rules, but that one person, I wanna figure out why they got it so that I can try to get these, you know, you get what I’m saying?

So I, I’ve grown, it took a long time for me to get where I am and I still have moments where I’m bracing, you know, where I like to scroll to see how many notes there are before I even read them. You know, like dumb things that I feel like such a kid about. But we’re human. You know, we’re so vulnerable.

Doing this work is you’re so naked and you’re trying and you get so excited. And I fall in love with everything. I edit so furiously and at every stage of the process, like my first cut, I’m like, this is the movie. Like I love this so much. And then, you know, by the 10th root polling experience. I’m like, this is the movie.

I love it so much. You know, so it’s, it’s painful, but at the same time it’s like highly liberating and I’ve gotten a lot more flowy with it, which was needed. I would, I would encourage everybody to learn how to really enjoy being malleable with it, because that’s when you find the sweet spot. It’s actually not like knowing everything right away, exactly what it’s supposed to be.

It’s like being able to know what the heart of it is. And then get really excited about how collaborative what we do is. And, and then you do things you would’ve never imagined. You would’ve never imagined, um, or you couldn’t have done alone, you know, which is really cool. ‘cause then you get to learn a lot more about yourself.

BEN: Yeah. And I think what you said of sort of being able to separate the idea of, okay, something maybe isn’t clicking there, versus whatever solution this person’s offering. Nine times outta 10 is not gonna be helpful, but, but the first part is very helpful that maybe I’m missing something or maybe what I want to connect is not connecting.

VIRI: And don’t take it personally. Yeah. Don’t ever take it personally. I, I think that’s something that like, we’re all here to try to make the best movie we can.

BEN: Exactly.

VIRI: You know? Yeah. And I’m not gonna pretend there aren’t a couple sticklers out there, like there’s a couple little wrenches in the engine, but, but we will, we all know who they are when we’re on the project, and we will bind together to protect from that.

But at the same time, yeah, it’s, yeah. You get it, you get it. Yeah. But it’s really, it’s an important part of our process and I, it took me a while to learn that.

BEN: Last question. So you talked about kind of getting to this cut and this cut and this cut. One of the most important parts of editing, I think is especially when, when you’ve been working on a project for a long time, is being able to try and see it with fresh eyes.

And of course the, one of the ways to do that is to just leave it alone for three weeks or a month or however long and then come back to it. But sometimes we don’t have that luxury. I remember Walter Merch reading in his book that sometimes he would run the film upside down just to, mm-hmm. You know, re re redo it the way his brain is watching it.

Do you have any tips and tricks for seeing a cut with fresh eyes? Oh

VIRI: yeah. I mean, I mean, other than stepping away from it, of course we all, you know, with this film in particular, I was able to do that because I was doing other films too. But I, one good one I always love is take all the music out. Just watch the film without music.

It’s really a fascinating thing. I also really like quiet films, so like I tend to all of a sudden realize like, what is absolutely necessary with the music, but, but it, it really, people get reliant on it, um, to do the work. And you’d be pleasantly surprised that it can inform and reinvent a scene to kind of watch it without, and you can, it’s not about taking it out forever, it’s just the exercise of watching what the film is actually doing in its raw form, which is great.

Switching that out. I mean, I can, you know, there’s other, washing it upside down, I feel like. Yeah, I mean like there’s a lot of tricks we can trick our trick, our brain. You can do, you could also, I. I think, I mean, I’ve had times where I’ve watched things out of order, I guess. Like where I kind of like go and I watch the end and then I click to the middle and then I go back to the top, you know?

And I’m seeing, like, I’m trying to see if they’re all connecting, like, because I’m really obsessed with how things begin and how they end. I think the middle is highly important, but it really, s**t tells you, what are we doing here? Like what are we set up and where are we ending? And then like, what is the most effective.

Journey to get there. And so there is a way of also kind of trying to pinpoint the pillars of the film and just watching those moments and not kind, and then kind of reverse engineering the whole piece back out. Yeah, those are a couple of tricks, but more than anything, it’s sometimes just to go watch something else.

If you can’t step away from the project for a couple of weeks, maybe watch something, you could, I mean, you can watch something comparable in a way. That tonally or thematically feels in conversation with it to just kind of then come back and feel like there’s a conversation happening between your piece and that piece.

The other thing you could do is watch something so. Far different, right? Like, even if you like, don’t like, I don’t know what I’m suggesting, you’d have to, it would bend on the project, but there’s another world where like you’re like, all right, I’m gonna go off and watch some kind of crazy thrill ride and then come back to my slow burn portrait, you know, and, and just, just to fresh the pal a little bit, you know?

I was like that. It’s like fueling the tanks. We should be watching a lot of stuff anyways, but. That can happen too, so you don’t, you also get to click off for a second because I think we can get, sometimes it’s really good to stay in it at all times, but sometimes you can lose the force for the, you can’t see it anymore.

You’re in the weeds. You’re too close to it. So how do we kind of shake it loose? Feedback sessions, by the way, are a part, is a part of that because I think that when you sit in the back of the room and you watch other people watch the film, you’re forced to watch it as another person. It’s like the whole thing.

So, and I, I tend to watch people’s body language more than, I’m not watching the film. I’m like watching for when people shift. Yeah, yeah. I’m watching when people are like coughing or, you know, or when they, yeah. Whatever. You get it. Yeah. Yeah. That, that, so

BEN: that is the most helpful part for me is at a certain point I’ll bring in a couple friends and I’ll just say, just want you to watch this, and I’m gonna ask you a couple questions afterwards.

But 95% of what I need is just sitting there. Watching them and you said exactly. Watching their body language.

VIRI: Yeah. Oh man. I mean, this was shoulder, shoulder shooks. There’s, and you can tell the difference, you can tell the difference between someone’s in an uncomfortable chair and someone’s like, it’s like whenever you can sense it if you’re ever in a theater and you can start to sense, like when they, when they reset the day, like whenever we can all, we all kind of as a community are like, oh, this is my moment.

To like get comfortable and go get a bite of popcorn. It’s like there’s tells, so some of those are intentional and then some are not. Right? I mean, if this is, it goes deeper than the, will they laugh at this or will they be scared at this moment? It really is about captivating them and feeling like when you’ve, when you’ve lost it,

BEN: for sure.

Yeah. Very. This has been fantastic. Oh my God, how fun.

VIRI: I talked about things here with you that I’ve haven’t talked, I mean, contact so deeply, but even film school, I feel like I don’t know if that’s out there anywhere. So that was fun. Thank you.

BEN: Love it. Love it. That, that that’s, you know, that’s what I hope for these interviews that we get to things that, that haven’t been talked about in other places.

And I always love to just go in, you know, wherever the trail leads in this case. Yeah. With, uh, with Jody Foster and Math McConaughey and, uh, I mean, go see it. Everybody met this. Yeah. Uh, and for people who are interested in your work, where can they find you?

VIRI: I mean, I don’t update my website enough. I just go to IMDB.

Look me up on IMDB. All my work is there. I think, you know, in a list, I’ve worked on a lot of films that are on HBO and I’ve worked on a lot of films and now, you know, obviously the perfect neighbor’s on Netflix right now, it’s having an incredible moment where I think the world is engaging with it. In powerful ways beyond our dreams.

So if you watch it now, I bet everybody can kind of have really fascinating conversations, but my work is all out, you know, the sports stuff born to play. I think it’s on peacock right now. I mean, I feel like, yeah, I love the scope that I’ve had the privilege of working on, and I hope it keeps growing. Who knows.

Maybe I’ll make my space movie someday. We’ll see. But in the meantime, yeah, head over and see this, the list of credits and anything that anybody watches, I love to engage about. So they’re all, I feel that they’re all doing very

BEN: different work. I love it. Thank you so much.

VIRI: Thank you.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit benbo.substack.com

 They put in their cover letter, “Honestly, we’re just gonna go up to Yellowstone around that time and we would love to swing by and show the movie.”

Rudi Womack is the Director of the Wyoming International Film Festival and the creator of the YouTube channel The Film Festival Guide.

In this conversation, Rudi talks about:

* What watching thousands of film festival submissions has taught him about good storytelling

* The biggest mistake filmmakers make when they submit to festivals

* Why transparency matters and why he published all of the submission and acceptance stats for the Wyoming International Film Festival

* The importance of a compelling poster and thumbnail

* How to write a good description of your movie

* The most important questions filmmakers must ask

Here is a link to Hiike, the new film festival submission platform that Rudi mentioned.

If you enjoyed this episode please forward to a friend.

Here is an AI-generated transcript of my interview with Rudi. Don’t come for me.

79. Film Festival Director Rudi Womack

BEN: Hi everyone. This is Ben Guest and this is The Creativity Education and Leadership Podcast. My guest today is Rudy Womack, who is the director of the Wyoming International Film Festival, and also Rudy has a fantastic YouTube page called The Film Festival Guide. So for all my filmmakers out there who are interested in submitting to festivals in this interview and on Rudy’s YouTube page, he breaks it down. Enjoy.

Rudi, thank you so much for joining us.

RUDI: Hey, it’s my pleasure to be here. Thank you for having me.

BEN: So I always start off with a fun question, and we’re entering the holiday season, so very important holiday question. Is Die Hard a Christmas movie?

RUDI: Absolutely. A hundred percent. Come on.

BEN: I love it. So I, I told you this off Air, I found you through the Rate YouTube channel.

You have the Film Festival Guide. Is that the right name? I wanna make sure I get the name right. Yeah. The film

RUDI: festival guide. Yep.

BEN: On YouTube Film Festival Guide on YouTube. Please. Any filmmakers out there go and subscribe. The information is so helpful. What, why did you start the this YouTube page?

RUDI: I, as a filmmaker have gone through the festival circuit several times and I made a lot of amateur mistakes. I didn’t know what I was doing. Definitely fell on my face a couple of times, but I also had some successes. And as I did more film festivals, I started learning more about the circuit.

I got invited by a film festival to become a programmer, and so I started reviewing a lot of films and seeing a lot of the submissions. And I think instantly that made me a better filmmaker just because I saw what was working, what wasn’t working, and how other filmmakers really brought to, brought their stories to life on the screen.

And it, it was truly inspirational. Very long story short, the Wyoming International Film Festival was started by a gentleman named Alan Oi, and he’s a, he’s a documentarian out of Wyoming, which is where I’m from. I’m from Wyoming. So Alan had the film festival and he had run it for some years and it was going great and everything.

But then Alan retired and now he’s retiring. He wants to move outta Wyoming and he doesn’t wanna run a live event. ‘cause it is a lot of work in his words. And I quote, it’s a young man’s game. And at the same time, COVID hit and he didn’t wanna do the whole online thing and it was just a big mess.

So Alan was like, I’m done with the festival, it’s done. I’m just gonna let it die. And I was begging him, no, Alan, you can’t do it. It’s so important for indie filmmakers. And at the time I’m just finding my feet in the festival circuit as well as both a filmmaker and now I’m a programmer.

I’m begging him like don’t let it die. It’s important, maybe I can help out. And he was like, why don’t you run it? And I was like, absolutely not, man. What are you talking about? That’s crazy. No way. No way. And I was like, I’m going to be your director of programming. That’s what I’m going to do.

I’m gonna help you get films in so you don’t have to do that work. Very long story short, I ended up running it. I ended up taking over the festival from Alan. I did so reluctantly. But when I started working with the festival, working with the community, working with my hometown filmmakers and my home state filmmakers, and just seeing how important a film festival can be for a local community to uplift indie filmmakers to help them along the way I fell in love with it and here I am now, I run the film festival.

And your question was, how did I start the YouTube channel? Sorry, I’m getting there. But I got a lot of questions from filmmakers about festivals, like how to navigate ‘em. And there’s just so much mystery behind film festivals ‘cause it’s so opaque. There’s not a lot of transparency from film festivals.

Film festivals are sketchy about which films they do select and which they don’t. And frankly, there’s a lot of misinformation out there about festivals. So I started answering a lot of questions and I started repeatedly answering the same question again and again and again. And I had some friends who told me, you should write a book.

But I was like, yeah, but books, there are books, like people have already written books, bluntly, frankly, people far more experienced and knowledgeable than myself have written books. And so if you’re not reading those books, then you’re probably not gonna read my book. So that’s when I decided, you know what, the YouTube channel is a great way to just do very easy outreach.

Take one single topic, break it down for 10 minutes, and hopefully help filmmakers along on their film festival journey.

BEN: I love it. And you said something for all the filmmakers who are listening. I’m gonna come back to it. Don’t worry. You said something about once you started programming and watching so many films, you got a good sense of what works and what doesn’t.

So I definitely wanna come back to that. I know the filmmakers listening want to hear that. But before that you mentioned 10 minute videos. You strike me as somebody who, does research and takes time to Yes. Before they do something. What did you discover about running a YouTube page?

What things work, what things don’t work?

RUDI: I’m still very early on in my own YouTube development. I’m still trying to learn what does and doesn’t work. So I’m probably the worst person on earth to give advice. Definitely that first 32nd hook is so important on YouTube, just like it is on a film that, that intro, how we come into the story, whatever, on YouTube, you can see a massive drop off and apparently it’s that way on every channel.

Again, I’m not a YouTube guru, so I don’t give advice, but that first 32nd hook is a big deal, but also just my presence on camera. I come from the post world. I’m an editor, so I’m not just behind camera. I’m behind, behind the camera. So I’m very much not used to an on-camera presence, so I’m developing that and learning it as well.

What kind of energy I can bring. How to make it engaging. But also I don’t wanna be zany and too quirky or anything because I am trying to give good guidance to filmmakers, but I also don’t want to lecture them and bore them to death. So it’s finding that balance of information that’s valuable, but also entertaining enough that people don’t wanna click off.

And it’s actually quite a complex thing that I’m still unraveling one video at a time. But the best advice that I saw was some YouTube guru who is just focus on getting 1% better on every single video. So is that little bit better graphics or better delivery, or better audio, or better editing or whatever it is.

And after a hundred videos, you’re now a hundred percent better. So that’s what I’ve been focusing on. Just very small baby steps.

BEN: Yeah, that’s such a great way to break it down, right? It just makes it bite-sized, get 1% better.

RUDI: I think you can apply that to life in general. There’s a lot of things in life just today be 1% better.

That’s it,

BEN: so you mentioned once you start a programming scene, get enough feel for what works, what doesn’t, especially with short films, both narrative and docs. What are you seeing that works and doesn’t work?

RUDI: In the shorts world I’m seeing a couple of things. One, a self-contained story, and this is something that I had a problem with because oftentimes I would go for more of a quote unquote scene instead of a full beginning, middle and in, in a story.

So a self-contained story typically is gonna make your short film much more successful. This can be hard for some filmmakers because they’re trying to make a proof of concept short film that they’re gonna go and get financing for their future. So one of the things that they often do is they just take a scene outta their feature and then just shoot that, which has mixed results.

And the problem is the films that have gotten financed and been made from shorts that have done that are the ones that you see. So it’s actually a survivor bias, where it’s like it, it works for those particular films and therefore everybody thinks it’s gonna work for their film. But obviously the films that it doesn’t work for, you’re never going to see.

So you don’t understand, actually for the majority of films, it doesn’t work. So if you have a proof of concept, I actually say, don’t pull a scene outta your feature. I say write its own scene, or sorry, your own short film. That exists in the same world and universe with the same characters as what your feature film is.

And I think that’s gonna have much more success on the film festival circuit. And that will lean you or lead you to whatever your goal is, financing or distribution or whatever. So that’s a big thing with short films that makes ‘em successful is make sure it is actually a self-contained story and it doesn’t have any loose ends, so to speak.

What doesn’t work is something that I myself struggle with, ironically as an editor. And that’s things being too long and you need to parse them down. Now a lot of people will say, shorter, the better, which is true, but I actually think that’s a result of actually getting to the core of the problem.

And that’s make your film as concise as possible. Get the idea. The emotion, the story out as concise as you can. And what that does by happenstance is it makes your film shorter. So it’s not that shorter is better. I know there’s it almost sounds like I’m just splitting hairs here, but I’ve seen plenty of five minute films that didn’t work.

I’ve seen plenty of 10 minute films that board me to death. So shorter isn’t necessarily better. It’s more concise of your story is better. And sometimes that still manifests as a 20, 30, 40 minute film. But if it’s a very interesting 20, 30, 40 minutes, that’s not gonna matter.

BEN: It’s such a great point. And for me, when I get to a certain point in the edit, I like to just bring in a couple friends and have them watch it. And then I just sit there and watch them watch it and whatever feedback they’re gonna provide afterwards. 95% of what I need, I can just tell from Body Language as they’re watching the film.

RUDI: Yep.

BEN: You come from

RUDI: the

BEN: Go ahead.

RUDI: Oh I was just gonna piggyback off that and just say, audience feedback is worth its weight and goal.

BEN: Yeah.

RUDI: And every filmmaker when you hit that fine cut stage, like you said, get your friends and family together, buy everybody some burgers and fries or whatever.

Get ‘em all together. Gather ‘em up in a room, watch them, watch your film. That’s gonna tell you more than anything else. We’ll be able to about the success of your film and where it’s strong, where it’s weak, where you can still fix things. And I always suggest do it in your fine cut stage because nothing’s locked in and you can still move things around and adjust, or whatever it is you need.

BEN: Love it. And I think earlier what you are really getting at is telling a good story. Yes. And I’m amazed at, not amazed, but maybe a little disappointed, especially in today’s world, the technical side of filmmaking. Even for an amateur, even for an indie filmmaker that you can, things can be d done so well technically, but there’s no story.

RUDI: Yes. All the time. So when I get onto Reddit, ‘cause you mentioned Reddit earlier if I go onto our filmmakers, right? Yeah. I don’t have to look far to see people just geeking out over the newest Camerons. It’s, and it’s always cameras. Everybody always talks about. This camera is so fancy and it has so many stops above and this lens can do this and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

It has this big bit rate, whatever. Everybody gets so excited about cameras and I always say to myself, man, if they got this excited about audio, I wouldn’t have to reject half the films that we have to reject because the audio is just blah. So if we’re gonna talk tech, if we’re gonna talk about the quote unquote quality of the filmmaking, I think what filmmakers need to understand is there are so many films out there we’re that is just the foundation.

It is the base level, it is the bare minimum that the film looks good. It sounds good. It feels good. So for us, festival guys, we see so many of these films. You’re super gorgeous cinematography, you’re really fancy, VFX, whatever it is that you think really separates your film from the pack. I don’t wanna discourage you, I don’t wanna sound jaded or anything, but it’s not as impressive to us as you might believe it is, simply because we see hundreds and sometimes thousands of films like that.

So for us it constantly falls back to originality and the story. Is the story well done? Is it well told? Is it a new and interesting story that we’ve never seen before? Is it a story that we’ve seen before but told in a very unique way, from a specific point of view, that is what is going to move us as festival people.

‘cause when I put it into the theater and my audience walks in and they pay a ticket. My audience is used to going down to the theater and seeing a hundred million dollar movies. So for them, quality is just a given. It’s just assumed they’re not going to be thinking about it for them. They go and watch a movie ‘cause they’re interested in, and I think if more filmmakers really dialed in on their story, they’re going to find more success.

BEN: So many great points there and a hundred percent agree with what you were saying about people get excited about the camera. And so I did my MFA at USC and there were three different times where I was on a set that, that I felt was unsafe. Not that I felt it was unsafe, what they were doing. Geez. And I walked off and it was always to get the cool shot.

Like no one’s ever hanging off a balcony to get room tone. You know what I mean? It’s just, it’s always to get the cool shot that, again, if you’re not telling a good story, it doesn’t matter. And to your point, I’ve always felt good audio is more important than good video.

RUDI: Good image.

BEN: Yeah.

RUDI: Look at the documentary. Look at the nonfiction world. We see verite stuff all the time. We see stuff people recorded on their phone or, security camera footage or whatever, like at the end of the day in the nonfiction world is a great example of the quality of the shot doesn’t necessarily matter so much as the quality of the story and how it’s being told and how it’s being revealed to us.

And the audio is always gonna be very clean, very top notch, even if it’s quote unquote found footage or. Veritate footage or whatever, the audio is always peak. I saw that Netflix doc recently, it was super heartbreaking. The perfect neighbor. And most of it is police body cam footage, but the audio is clean so we’re able to follow the story so no one sits back and thinks of themselves this isn’t a good shot.

Of course it’s not, it’s police potty cam footage. Like it doesn’t look good and it’s not meant to,

BEN: but it sounds good. And so you can follow it.

RUDI: Yes.

BEN: What what are some tropes that you think you’ve gotten tired of seeing in, especially in short films?

RUDI: So every year it’s a little bit different.

You would be surprised what things pop up and what don’t. The one trope that kind of rubs me the wrong way, I, I don’t know how to describe it any other way than filmmaker self therapy. Like they, they’re definitely going through something at the moment and they’re not focused on creating a good story.

They’re more focused on using their art form to emotionally process whatever it is they’re going through, which fine, you are an artist that makes sense to do, but also I can’t sell my audience on that. So while I don’t wanna discourage someone from making a film that is very near and dear and personal to them, at the end of the day, it might not be a good fit for film festivals.

And so I, I would really think twice about whether or not that is a story that an audience, frankly, needs to see. Filmmaker cell therapy is one that when I get it, I’m always eh I don’t know what to do with it. I just, I don’t know what to do. Some other tropes that we see very commonly are like.

Obviously right now, tech and AI and stuff like that gives a lot of people anxiety. So there’s a lot of like evil robot takes over or the big reveal at the end of the movie, they were a robot the whole time, or the whole thing was a simulation or whatever. That’s being very well tread right now.

For me, I’m I am not a political person and anytime some big thing is in the news, we see tons of films on it. So I understand politics do affect people’s day to day and their lives, so I understand that manifest. But man, I probably have a hundred immigration films right now and that’s a lot. And I’m not gonna screen that many, so I’m only gonna pick like one, maybe two, so that’s a tough one to do.

Anything that’s like a hot button political issue. We always see a big wave of those come in. And then honestly, romance dramas get tough. It isn’t evergreen. We do have an audience for it. We usually do have some kind of a selection of them. Romance dramas have existed since the beginning of time.

It’s always been a thing. But filmmaker broke up with his girlfriend, so now he has a character who breaks up with his girlfriend. It gets it, it doesn’t get very original. I, it just it gets exhausted. So those are some of the kind of general tropes I would avoid. I have heard other festival directors talk about like cancer films and Alzheimer’s films and stuff like that.

This year I’m not seeing so much of those, but I have seen those in the past. So tho those are some other. Tread stories we’ll see.

BEN: One of the things that I appreciate about. Your series of videos is your transparency, and you have one video where you literally break down. Here are all the films the number of films, Wyoming International Film Festivals received. Here’s how it breaks down, here’s how many we, we accepted, et cetera, et cetera.

You have another one where you literally show the viewer, this is what we see as a programmer on our film freeway portal. Here’s the scoring sheet. I think it’s a little bit different from the one you guys use internally, but basically here’s what the scoring sheet on film freeway looks like. Why is transparency so important to you?

RUDI: Because I’m a filmmaker, because I’ve been to so many festivals where I have no idea what the hell’s going on. I’ve been to festivals where I think my film is gonna be a good fit. I think based on what I’ve been able to investigate on my own, digging through their website, digging through their archive.

Seen what they’ve programmed before. I think I’m a good fit, but I don’t actually know. And I’ve submitted to festivals where later on, I see what they programmed or I got rejected or even accepted and then gone to the festival itself and have been a little disappointed when was like I this festival didn’t fit my goals the way that I thought it would, or, this festival wasn’t going to do the things for me.

Or this festival, like really promoted themselves very heavily as this big event. And then you get there and then it’s not, and that’s a little bothersome. So when I stepped into my role at the Wyoming International Film Festival, I made a whole bunch of changes. But one of the changes that I made was, we are going to be transparent.

I don’t ever want a filmmaker to submit to our festival, get in, get accepted to the festival, drive all the way out to Wyoming and be disappointed. I don’t want them to do that. That’s not good for them. It’s not good for us. It’s not good for the community. It’s not good for indie film at large.

What’s better is if we just be what we are in Wyoming, we’re straight shooters. We just say it as it is. So I’m going to tell you exactly how many films were submitted, which films we accepted, what the percentage rates are, how many shorts versus features, how many docs versus narratives, how many music videos, all of this stuff.

And we’ve been releasing the data for the past couple of years. This year, like we went all out with the data it was much more thorough than what we’ve done in years past. And even me, the director of the festival, I sit back, I look at the data and I can see some weak spots in it. I can see where we need to improve as a festival, where we need to start, bringing in a certain type of film or where other films might be overrepresented or how we can give more of an experience to our filmmakers.

Just by boiling it down to numbers and looking at it. I can start seeing some of our weak spots and I want to improve on that ‘cause I want to have a good festival. And I think if more festivals were to do that, I think the filmmaking community at large would be much more appreciative. And I think film festivals need to understand.

That if you have fewer submissions, that’s not a bad thing because the submissions that you are going to get are filmmakers that really want to be in your festival and that’s good for the health of your festival, the community, the filmmakers, everything. So I, I think the only way we get there is by being transparent.

And thankfully there are other festivals that are publishing their data, which is great. And that makes me very happy to see. And I hope that trend continues and I hope even more festivals start publishing more of their data and showing how they review films, what their scorecards look like, what they’re looking for.

‘cause ultimately I genuinely believe that just serves the filmmakers better and ultimately makes everybody have a better experience on the film festival circuit, including the festivals themselves.

BEN: When you took over as director

What were the biggest challenges?

RUDI: So our biggest challenge to this day is our venue.

So there’s only one movie theater in Cheyenne, Wyoming. It is owned by a company outta Casper, Wyoming. They own pretty much a monopoly of movie theaters across the state, like most of them. And they don’t allow anybody into their theaters at all. They don’t allow her private screenings or corporate events or, in individuals who wanna screen their film or film festivals.

I’m not the only film festival in Wyoming. I talk with other festival directors. They can’t get in either. It’s funny, the film commissioner of the state can’t even get in. You would think the movie theater would at least want to partner with the state film Commission, but no. So for us, the challenge has been a venue and luckily our partners over at Laramie County Community College.

Have graciously allowed us to use their facilities for the last couple years. They have a beautiful auditorium that we do some of our screenings in, but we also have screening rooms in a black box theater that they have as well as a conference room. And when I say conference room, most filmmakers like their heart drops a little bit.

They’re like, oh man, I’m just, I’m going into a conference room. It’s not a proper movie theater. And that’s fine. We publish that data on our film freeway page on hike. We are transparent about that. So when you submit, you might be in the conference room. But ironically, I think it has some of the best audio and it has some of the best projection.

So even though it’s the quote unquote least movie theater, like I actually think it has some of the best projection, best color. But venue is probably one of our biggest challenges and we continue to develop that. We continue to. Trying to innovate. We’re trying to build our own screening room there on the campus.

Like we’re trying to use one of their big classrooms for it. And what we wanna do is we wanna turn it into a lounge. We wanna bring in like couches and sofas and comfy chairs where it’s like much more of a chill environment in there. And that’s the type of film we wanna screen in. There’s some you can literally sit back, settle in and relax.

So there’s things that we’re doing to create a better environment for our filmmakers and of course our audience, our guests at the festival.

BEN: I love it. What’s been the biggest reward?

RUDI: The, I get to meet you. That’s what the biggest reward is. I get to meet so many filmmakers. I get to hear their stories.

I get to be inspired. I get to learn stuff. I was talking with a festival director a couple of days ago. Who asked me about how we do our audience award scores and how we process that and what they do. And I just like I lit up, I’m like, oh my God. It’s such a better way, it’s more efficient, it’s easier on the staff.

It’s more representative of how the audience actually feels about the film, the way the scores are aggregated and counted. It’s so great. I get to meet so many people in this world of film and every single day it’s like a new, whole new world is opened up to me and I get to hear so many fantastic points of view.

I get to see so many awesome films, like just how many great movies are out there is a cinephile. It’s like the most rewarding thing in the world. I’m an addict. I’m totally addicted to it. It’s so great.

BEN: I love it. I remember I used to coach basketball in my first year as a head coach. I was like, yeah, everybody’s gonna be pretty competitive, other coaches and so forth.

And they were, and I was. But at the same time, when coaches would get together, it was just so supportive. And people are sharing, this is what I’m doing in practice. I’m looking at this offense, this defense. And I imagine it’s the same with other film festival directors and programmers. Oh, yeah. Just a supportive environment comparing notes.

RUDI: It is. And the more that I meet, the more I truly do understand. 99% of festival directors out there are programmers, people who work in it. They have some tie to cinema. Most of them are filmmakers. Those who aren’t, have a deep passion and love for cinema and for storytelling, and.

Everybody’s a volunteer. Everybody has a day job. Nobody makes money on this. They do it from the love of their heart. They truly do. And the way that they serve their communities, the way that they serve their filmmakers, some of the cool ideas they come up with there’s some really neat festivals out there with like very interesting hooks or events or whatever.

And I think it is such an incredible ecosystem and I think I’m truly privileged to be part of it.

BEN: What are some lesser known or maybe mid-tier festivals or local festivals that you love to attend?

RUDI: Okay, so one of my favorite festivals I guess you said lesser known. This one is not lesser known, but Film Quest over in Provo, Utah, damn man, pe like festival people talk about building community. They’re on a different level. They’ve built a family. Like everybody who goes to that festival is just so tight knit there. There’s no other festival like Provo or sorry, film Quest in Provo. It is just, it’s on another level. And how well they treat their filmmakers is fantastic.

Some years ago I was invited to be a jury member at the Fair Film Festival, which is in Ferazi Kosovo. So that is in southeastern Europe. It’s a landlocked country, just a little bit above Greece, a little bit north of Greece and north of Macedonia. And Fari is a small town. And I went to that festival and first off, wow.

What a great festival. I strongly suggest you submit your film to fair film. It’s so good. But the cool part of being in this European festival, and frankly a small European country, most of the films are international, obviously. And so there’s filmmakers coming in from like Jordan and Spain and Germany and Slovakia and Slovenia and like all over the place, Greece, Turkey, you name it.

And how interesting it is to have this incredible cross section of languages and cultures and peoples, but we’re all united by this one singular thing. And that’s our love for storytelling and our love for movies. It had to be one of the most incredible experiences of my life. And the next movie I make, taking it back to cos

BEN: Fantastic.

Just had a question. What was it? Oh okay. So with the huge caveat of besides making. A good film, a film that tells a story. Besides that, are there any tips or tricks, things on the margins that filmmakers can do when they’re applying to festivals to be aware of? Sometimes festivals. Ask for a cover letter or

RUDI: Yes.

BEN: Press kit, things like that. Okay.

RUDI: So with, sorry, my phone is loud. I should turn that down. So obviously with a huge caveat of make a good film or whatever, what’s the easiest way to get it? All of the stuff on film Freeway, and I do have a video on this, on my YouTube page if you wanna check it out, where I give you a tour of film, freeway from the festival side of things like what the festival can see and how we see it and how we navigate it.

On the festival end of things. We can see your cover letter, your screenings and awards your. Cast and crew information, your director’s bio, your director’s statement, your photographs, your EPK, that’s your electronic press kit your trailer, all of that. All of that. As much of that as you can possibly make, you should make it.

It’s very important. And you never know which piece is gonna be more important to a particular film festival. For instance, here’s something crazy. I was meeting with some of my programmers last night. They had a whole bunch of films that they wanted to recommend to go to the next level programming.

And we require films. Tell us where in the world or where in the United States the film was made. And every single one of ‘em was California. California. California. California. California. Which fine, whatever. California has a big film industry. That’s, it’s a very big state, population wise. Makes sense, right?

But I am sitting back thinking, okay. I don’t want it just to be a bunch of California movies. We have a big country here. I would like to see something else. And something caught my attention. One of the filmmakers, their address was in Birmingham, Alabama, but the film was shot in California, so I am suspicious.

I haven’t dug into it myself. I’m suspicious either that filmmaker’s from Alabama and they have moved to California, or that filmmaker lives in Alabama and they shot their film in California. So they’re answering where it was shot correctly. But for me, I’m like, there you go. When everybody’s from California.

I want that unique perspective. I wanna see someone’s from Alabama and what their perspective is now. I haven’t watched the film yet. I don’t know if it’s what we’re looking for. Obviously it’s a good film if my programming team has recommended it, there’s no doubt in my mind it’s good film. Now there’s other considerations we’re gonna have, but.

That alone was something, even my, like I myself did not know that I would be looking for. So filling out all of that data on film, freeway, all of your information that you possibly can, your cover letters your screenings, your awards, whatever it is, the more information you give us as a festival, the more we have to make our selections.

And it only benefits you. It only helps you out. So filmmakers don’t get lazy. Fill out all of that information. We need it. We use it. It’s important. Just do it.

BEN: You mentioned a meeting with your programmers last night. Take us inside that conversation. What does that look like? What do you discuss, et cetera.

RUDI: So there’s. There’s a big programming team and it’s divided up into two different groups. There’s our kind of first round screeners and then there’s our senior programmers and the senior programmers pretty much review the films that have gone through that first round of screening that are getting recommended to go onto the next one.

So typically when I’m talking with my screeners and everything, it’s a very different conversation on the bottom end of it where they’re just sorting through all of the submissions versus a different conversation I have with the senior programmers who are on the top end of it. We’re now trying to decide how to block films together, how we’re gonna organize it, what’s the schedule maybe look like, what’s the overall tone and vibe of the festival going to be, okay.

If we wanna have a sci-fi block, do we even have enough sci-fi films? If we don’t. Where else can we find homes for ‘em? Stuff like that. So those conversations are a little bit more high end, if you will. And it tends to be less about the story of the film itself and more about how that film is going to fit into the festival.

Whereas when I’m talking with the screeners, it’s much more on the story end. Like what about the story did you like or you didn’t like? Or what was the unique point of view? Or whatever. So depending on which group I’m talking to it, it’s gonna be different. And then of course that divides out further on features and shorts and documentaries and narratives and music videos.

So like obviously my conversation with the music video people are gonna be much different than my like short documentary people.

BEN: Shout out to short documentary people as a documentarian primarily makes shorts I’ll ask a question for us folks. In one of the videos, as I mentioned, you literally show here’s what the scoring sheet looks like.

Yes. And that was for narrative with, I think one of the categories was acting and so forth. So for a documentary or documentary shorts, what does that scoring sheet look like? What do those discussions entail?

RUDI: Film freeway does not allow us to have more than one scoring sheet.

So unfortunately, there’s just this one scoring sheet that’s for everything. What I tell my screening team, and we definitely double check everything, like there’s multiple people who look at something. So it’s not just one person’s opinion. You have at least two, oftentimes three, pretty often four.

So for something like documentary they skip over that. That’s what they do. So if there’s no acting in the film, they skip over that. They don’t rate acting if there is no acting. But you’d be surprised. There are documentaries that have acting in ‘em. There are like docudramas or documentaries with recreation In the recreation is like actual scenes and performances and stuff like that.

So in those cases, even though it’s a nonfiction and a documentary, yeah, we’ll still judge it for the acting ‘cause that’s what it has. I get the question. I’m gonna hijack your question for a second, but it is applicable. I get the question, do we accept AI in our film festival, we do not have any official policy for or against ai, which scares some filmmakers.

But we do rate AI on the same standards as we would anybody else. So when it comes to creativity and originality, guess what, you’re getting a nothing. ‘cause AI didn’t create it. AI is not original. AI just mashes together a bunch of information from other people. So that’s no creativity and originality.

Same thing for something like, I don’t know, art design. If you have a AI character walking through a scene or whatever you’re getting zero on your art design. Nobody built those sets. Nobody costumed that actor. Nobody was the makeup artist or the hair or whatever other art deck or, PD or anything on the set.

So we will accept ai. We have accepted one single AI film so far because despite all of its quote unquote handicaps, and it was a music video. It still was successful in other categories that had a good enough score. We as a team sat down, said Yes, that it still is a good film. The audience is still gonna enjoy it.

The filmmaker definitely had a vision with it. They wrote out a whole thing on like why they chose to use ai. ‘cause they’re also an experimental filmmaker, so it made sense for them and everything. So we were like, you know what? That’s legit. Let’s put it in. But other AI submissions, like I got an AI children’s animation the other day and I’m like they didn’t animate it themselves.

They didn’t voice act it themselves. It’s not getting good scores on any of these. So we’ll see. We’ll see. We’ll see if it gets through or not, but already you’re shooting yourself in the foot. So don’t do ai.

BEN: Okay. Couple little. I don’t know, around the edges or micro questions. One of the things that you talked about in one of your recent videos was having a good poster and you talked about designing your poster for your film prudence.

RUDI: Yeah.

BEN: Talk, talk to me about,

RUDI: I specifically gave my posters an example, not a great poster,

BEN: But talk to me about that.

For the no budget or low budget filmmaker that can’t afford to hire a a designer to make a poster. Talk to me about poster design and how that impacts the presentation of the film for festivals.

RUDI: So I strongly believe that a big part of filmmaking and marketing and packaging your film together, all of that is psychology.

And as much as we want to sit back and say, Hey, don’t judge a book by its, cover it, that literally goes against human psychology. People are not hardwired to do that. It, it is. In our DNA, it’s not just a bad habit, it is literally a survival mechanism. So if you want to stand out, you do need to have everything put together.

Your cover letter, your synopsis, your photographs, all of that, and of course all of your key art. That’s your poster. That’s any banners that you have, that’s how you’re going to be promoting the film. And you have to understand it’s not just about making your film look pretty to get filmmakers to go, or sorry your programmers go, Ooh, and ah, it’s a pretty film.

We are looking at that as a mechanism for us to advertise the festival. You gotta understand if I have 150 films in the festival, I have to get an audience for those films. And the easiest way for me to do that is through your marketing materials. We don’t have the capacity. To design marketing materials for 150 different films.

We are relying on the filmmakers to do that so we can go out and promote the festival. So people show up to your screening, which I would presume is what you want if you’re going to a film festival. So anything you’re trailer, any photographs that you can provide, which some filmmakers only provide BTS photographs, BTS is fine.

It’s great. Give me some good key art I can also use, please. That’s what newspapers, that’s what the local news that’s what podcasters, whatever, that’s what they want to see. So that’s what I can provide. And of course, your poster. Now, there are a lot of online tools to help in poster design, frankly, I don’t have an excuse for making a bad poster like I did, which is one of the reasons I use it as an example is I am shaming myself being like, this could be better and it should be. But there’s a lot of online resources that can help with poster design. And also for filmmakers who are a little bit strapped for cash, you would be surprised what people will do for in kind, service for service.

So if you have a friend or if there’s someone that you can find that’s Hey, they’ll design your poster if you can design whatever their website or whatever it is that your skills might be there, there’s a lot of exchange that you can do on that part. So yeah your marketing, your packaging, all of that together is actually quite important.

BEN: Such a great point. And I’ve written and published a memoir and through that, I’ve worked with other authors on, on. Both writing and marketing their books, editing and marketing their books. And I tell people the exact same thing. People judge a book by its cover all the time. And in this day and age, they judge it for listeners, I’m holding my thumb and forefinger part as a thumbnail on a computer screen.

Yeah, that’s the size. So even for a programmer or a festival director watching it on film freeway through their platform, they’re not gonna see the poster like we see it in the movie theater. They’re gonna see it as a thumbnail image. Yeah. So it has to work as a thumbnail image. And if you can’t read the title as a thumbnail or can’t make out what’s on the image, what’s on the poster as a thumbnail, then you’ve failed that part of the process.

RUDI: One, one of the things that like really clued me into how important a poster is, I went to a film festival, I believe it was Kansas City Film Festival. Some years ago, and they had a bunch of posters of films out, but there was one that was like bright pink. It was like super bright pink and had like very eye popping design and everything on it.

And it was like in a whole field of like dark drama posters that are all like gritty and everything. And I’m like that stands out. That really drew my eye to it. And I think that was like my big light bulb moment of like how important this stuff actually is. And one of the things that I’ve been saying for some years, I’ve said it on the channel, I think, I don’t know, some, sometimes I record things and edit out.

So I don’t know what I’ve said on the channel sometimes but one of the things that I say is making a film is half of film making. The other half is marketing, the other half is getting butts in the seats. The other half is getting eyeballs on your movie. The other half is selling your film to an audience or a film festival or a distributor or a programmer or whatever you’re trying to do with it.

It’s getting it out there. So making a film is half a filmmaking. The other half marketing, that’s what it is.

BEN: I’m just nodding along with everything you’re saying and I’ve always felt both with films and with books, with art in general, you’re trying to make an emotional connection from what’s in your head and your heart to the audience.

And if you don’t do your job, getting your film out there and helping an audience come and see your film. Then you’re not helping that connection. You’re missing sort of the point of making this, unless it’s just for yourself. It’s for, it’s to connect with other people and for other people to connect with your work.

And that is marketing.

RUDI: It’s valid. If you’re just making a film for yourself, that’s absolutely valid. It’s in art form. You can make a film for yourself, but if you’re sending it to me at a film festival, you’re not you’re literally trying to find an audience. So these are the things you need to consider.

BEN: I love it. I got two more just in the weeds detail questions.

RUDI: Alright, let’s do it.

BEN: Let’s talk description. And what I’ve seen ‘cause I’m in the middle of applying to festivals. And by the way just for. Listeners, this might interest you. So I discovered Rudi’s YouTube page and I was like, this is so helpful.

And then I went to the Wyoming International Film Festival page and all the transparency and statistics that, that Rudi puts out, that the festival puts out. And I realized, okay, so the short documentary I have is not a good fit for this festival. Exactly what Rudi’s saying. So just for anybody listening, thank you for doing research.

RUDI: Thank you. That’s good. That’s not a bad thing, right? That means it saves you time, it saves you money, it saves you heartbreak. It’s so good. Do research before you submit. I’m sorry, but I, it’s in, in almost every single one of my videos, I tell filmmakers, do your research before you submit. Find the festivals that gel with your film.

And if it, if they don’t screen the type of movie that you have, don’t submit to ‘em. You’re wasting your time, you’re wasting your money. And the festival, like the programmer behind the screen, might love your film. They truly might love your film, but they’re programming for a very specific audience and they know what that audience’s taste is.

So that’s why they’re driving specific films to that audience. So even if they love it, they might not include it, which is why you should always do your homework and do your research before you submit. I’m sorry to interrupt, but it’s so important

BEN: And yes. And the flip side of that coin is now I also know what the Wyoming International Film Festival looks for.

So in the future, if I have a doc or a film, I’m like, oh, this would be a great fit for this festival.

RUDI: Yes.

BEN: It helps both ways.

RUDI: It does. And it helps you dial in. Which festivals you should target, which festivals are gonna help you with your specific goals. Whatever your goals are with the film it’s gonna help you with your budgeting and your travel plans and your own personal calendar.

It’s gonna help with your mental health. It just, it helps on so many different aspects. And on the film festival side of things, I appreciate it when I hear from filmmakers say, Hey man, I looked into your festival looks good, but you don’t have the kind of film that I have. And I’m like, not a problem man.

Maybe I can point you in the right direction. Maybe I know some film festival programmers, I can make a recommendation, on your behalf too, that’s not a bad thing. We love movies and we want to see them successful, but not every single fest or film and story is going to be successful in every single market.

So it’s very important to find your audience. And believe me, we are going to be cheering you the whole way.

BEN: I want get back to my kind of in the weeds questions, but you’ve mentioned something that is big picture, that’s so important. I feel like I’ve buried the lead here. And you mentioned this you’ve mentioned this multiple times in your videos.

Is that a Phil, it’s key. Maybe the most important part of this process is of the film festival submission process is a filmmaker needs to understand what are their goals in applying to a festival. Yes. So can you just talk a little bit about that?

RUDI: So film festivals are a tool. And they can be a tool for many different things, but they are a tool.

And just every single tool is not right for every single job, every film festival is not gonna be right for every film and vice versa. So before you go out to film festivals, you just need to ask yourself why? Why am I going out to film festivals? Why am I spending the money, the time, the energy, the effort?

What do I want out of film festivals? And that’s where you need to identify your goal. And the more specific you can be with the goal, the better it’s going to be you going on your film festival journey. So for many filmmakers, a common reason they go out to film festivals is networking. So I’m gonna use that as an example.

So let’s say your goal is I want to network, I want to meet other. Filmmakers, I wanna meet, directors of photography and producers and other people that I can hire for my projects, or they’re gonna hire me for their projects, and I want to build that network and I want to meet more filmmakers.

Fantastic. Great. That’s your goal. So the first thing that you need to do is you need to be looking at festivals that have networking events. And in this particular instance, you need to ask yourself two things. One, does it have networking? Is there in-person networking parties or networking events?

And two, do the types of people that I want to meet actually attend those networking events. So us at the Wyoming International Film Festival, we have a pretty broad spectrum. We have filmmakers that are just beginning their journey. They’re totally new, wet behind the ears. They’re green they’re just starting their journey.

That’s great. All the way up to every year we have multi Emmy award-winning filmmakers. Like people who do this professionally they’re in unions or professional organizations, or they’re a member of the academy, motion picture Arts and sciences or the TV Academy or sometimes like the Grammys and stuff like that.

I, myself, I’m a professional editor, so there’s people like me who professionally work, but they’re like below the line. They’re cinematographers editors, gaffers, what have you. So if your goal is to meet some like high-end producer that’s gonna throw, a million dollars at your movie our festival is not the festival that’s gonna help you with your goal.

So you should skip over us because we don’t have that kind of person in attendance. But if your goal is to meet other filmmakers at your level that you can collaborate with or get hired by or whatever. We’re a great festival. We have tons of networking, and we bring in a ton of those filmmakers.

We’re a great event for you. So when you identify what your goal is and you’re very specific about it, it’s easier to identify which festivals you should start targeting. I take that one step further, and then once you’ve narrowed down which festivals are gonna help you with your goal, then you look into their history and see which of them have screened movies like yours in the past.

So if you have a, you know I use the example, if you have a seven minute comedy coming of the age film, now you know which festivals have good networking, which festivals have the kinds of people you want to network with. Now you look at which ones have screened short coming of age comedy films in the past, and have a history of doing that.

So that’s gonna help you filter it even further. And by doing that, you’re gonna really start to develop your film festival strategy. Now I do have some exciting news. There is something coming now, it’s called Hike, H-I-I-K-E. It’s hike with two I. And what Hy is doing, it’s a submission platform similar to film Freeway, but among many of the tools that they’re giving filmmakers, they’re giving filmmakers customized festival strategies and they’re scraping all of that data from film festivals, what they’ve programmed in the past.

And when you as a filmmaker, join Hike, you take a little quiz, you tell them what your goals are, what your film is, you know how long it is, what the genre is, tell them about yourself. And they literally have. Data scientist who’s built this like machine learning algorithm that pairs the data from the film festival to what the filmmaker provides.

That literally gives you a compatibility score. So it’s, it comes out and tells you, if you want to network with, professional filmmakers but not mega producers and you have a short comedy coming of age film Wyoming International Film Festival has that crowd screens those types of films and you would have a 90% compatibility.

So it actually helps you develop your festival strategy for you.

BEN: It’s so needed. And Rudi has a great video on how to spot scam film festivals. Yes. That’s something that is just prevalent these days. So for filmmakers who are getting ready to submit, I encourage you to watch that video. I’ll link to it in the show.

I’ll link to everything that we’re discussing in the show notes. The. So Rudi talked about one goal a filmmaker can have is to network other goals at various points in my, film festival my limited film festival career I’ve applied to festivals ‘cause I wanted to go to that city, new Orleans Fest, new Orleans Film Festival.

Traveling

RUDI: is totally legitimate reason to go.

BEN: People apply because they want distribute, they wanna meet distributors or financiers for the next film. Although, that’s what everybody wants. So

RUDI: you, you would be surprised. So in, in 2018, I had a feature film and my, my goal like most feature films was to land a distribution deal.

But I was like, that’s not specific enough. There are many steps to land a distribution deal. So what I need is I need good press on my film. So that was a goal. So I wanted to target festivals that had press. I wanted laurels. I wanted to win some awards with it, but I also knew my film was. Small and kind of small scale.

So it wasn’t gonna win laurels at big festivals. So I was like, okay, I need festivals with press. I need festivals that are legitimate and above board, but also small enough where I’m gonna be competitive. And then I wanted to actually meet distributors. And I know they only go to big festivals, so I actually had to target three different kinds of festivals.

‘cause I had three, let’s call ‘em conflicting goals with my own film. So that’s what I did. I did a split strategy. I targeted festivals where I was gonna be this tiny little fish in a very big pond. And no one’s really gonna notice me, but I’m just happy to be there. I targeted festivals where I know that I was going to get very good press and very good reviews on the film.

And I targeted festivals that were small, still legitimate, but I was gonna be competitive and maybe bring home some trophies. And so that was my strategy and it worked, and I landed a distribution deal.

BEN: That’s so great. I, I’d love to do a part two at some point we can talk distribution deals and all of the, yeah.

Things like that. But I think for people listening, the big takeaway is even with this multi-pronged goal, three different goals connected to each other. Once you identify what your goals are, then you work backwards and you create your strategy to Yes, to achieve those. Okay. Back to the two in the weeds.

Two more in the weeds questions. Yeah. So description, and as I’m looking at other film descriptions, and I saw this at USC all the time as well, and we talked about earlier, filmmakers wanting to sit in emotion or sit in something traumatic and have the audience experience that I notice a lot of times in descriptions of short films.

Can so and so come to terms with this? Can, and just as someone who has a little bit of experience marketing stories, where’s the action? What’s the active what’s this person actively trying to accomplish, rather than can they just come to terms with something? Can you talk a little bit about film description, just three or four lines.

What pops?

RUDI: So just like your poster, just like your marketing and everything, a film description is your way to reach through the screen, grab the audience, grab the programmer, and pull them into your movie. Keep in mind, your whole entire goal is to get people to watch your film, get them excited about your film.

And so if you just have a very drab, like description that’s just yeah, has to face consequences for a decision they made or come to terms with something when I, that’s a good V one, that’s a good place to start, but that’s not going to get an audience excited about your film.

I saw film, I don’t know if it was at my festival. It wasn’t at my festival. We didn’t screen it, but I’m saying, I don’t know if it was submitted to my festival or if I saw it at another festival, but I remember one of the descriptions it was great. It was whatever the two character names were, John and Jane, I forget what the characters are, but like John and Jane are on a date, there’s a bomb in the other room.

I I hope the date goes well, or something like that. Let’s hope the date goes well. And I’m like, what is this movie? That gets you really excited for it. You’re. It, it creates so much mystery. And also just the cavalier way that it was written immediately tells me this is gonna be a comedy, or it’s not taking itself too seriously.

It’s not some like gritty, dive into the underworld or whatever. Like just how blunt it was about the dis of the film and just that like small little description. I know I’m paraphrasing what it was, but it stuck with me for years at this point. ‘cause I’m like, that is how you write a description for a film.

That is how you get someone excited to see what is this movie about? Let’s jump in. Piggybacking off a description. Titles are another great way to do that. In, in my own repertoire of films I’ve had film called Prudence. Okay, fine, whatever. Prudence doesn’t really tell you much about that film.

I had a film that I’m very proud of. It’s artsy, it’s a little bit magical realism and it’s called in this gray place, and it has that artsy mystique around it in this gray place. And I love that title. I did it, I did a film back in film school. It’s terrible, but the title’s great.

It’s called Back to Fort Russell. It was a Western and I, to this day, it’s one of my favorite titles that I’ve ever had. But it tells you something. It clues you into what this film is going to be, what the journey of this movie is going to be. And some films do that better than others. And some films, yeah, it’s not necessary.

But I, I get more excited when I hear something like the Texas Chainsaw Massacre than I do something that’s just like love. Or mom or something.

BEN: I think this is the last question. So again, with all these little details, cover letter, talk to me about cover letters.

RUDI: It’s so interesting you asked me that question ‘cause hearing about four or five days, I’m posting a video on the YouTube channel about cover letters. It’s short, it’s only four or five minutes long, but cover letters are so important.

Should absolutely write a cover letter. And a couple of days ago I was talking with programmers at dances with films, and if you don’t know dances with films, look ‘em up. They are an incredible film festival. They are in the big leagues for sure. And I was talking with a couple of programmers and I asked them about covert letters and they said, it’s so important it.

How the filmmaker is going to put an audience in the theater is very important for their festival. How they’re going to get people to attend is very important for them and they’re like, a good indication in a cover letter is when they, the filmmaker indicates how they’re going to market their film and they use the example of football.

Let’s say it’s a movie about football. They’re like, if it’s a movie about football and you tell me in the cover letter that you’re part of several like football organizations, or you’re gonna be reaching out to sports organizations or youth organizations for sports or something like that, to attend the film.

That’s a very good indication for them in the cover letter. For me, I think a cover letter is very important in that it shows. You’re going the extra mile to show the festival you care. You’re not just submit and quit. We’re not just one festival on a list of 50 that you’re submitting to. There is a reason you want to screen with us, and that’s a specific reason.

Either you feel that your film is good fit for our audience, or there’s something that you want to connect with. In Wyoming, I had one cover letter and we did accept this film and it was really funny. They put in their cover letter like their film was a comedy, so their cover letter was also very comedic, but they’re like, honestly, we’re just gonna go up to Yellowstone around that time and we would love to swing by and show the movie.

And I laughed. I laughed so hard at that and I’m like. But that shows me they care. Like they want to be there. And the film was good and it was funny and we screamed it and they were there. So it’s a way to show a film festival enthusiasm and it’s way to inform the festival about yourself, about your film, and how that’s gonna gel with their particular event and their audience.

BEN: I love it. And that reminds me, I got one more, I got a bonus question. Yeah. Can you talk about applying early?

RUDI: Yes. Statistically, when I look at our own data, statistically, it does seem to be that the earlier you apply, the better chance that you have. And so I don’t want to give the impression that if you applied late.

You have no chance. I think in the video where I literally broke down the data and the statistics, I think at our festival we had a one in five chance of getting in on the late deadline, which is about a 20% acceptance rate. But it was much higher the earlier it came in. So just with the raw data taking out my opinions, my emotions on it, whatever, just the data itself shows earlier is better.

Now, here’s where my opinions and my feelings towards it come from. I think it’s a couple of things. One, when you get in early, you set the pace for the rest of the festival, you’re telling us, okay, it’s a drama. We’re gonna compare your film against others. Like you have now become the benchmark that we’re gonna compare other films to when it comes to like dramas or whatever.

What it also does. It’s something I’m going to discuss in my video and cover letters, but it also engages something, what’s called mere exposure effect in psychology, which is essentially the more that you are exposed to something, the more preference you have towards it. Which means if you get in early, you are exposing yourself, your film, and your story to the programmers more often and more readily than late submissions are.

So it’s more likely that the programmers form some attachment to your film, and that’s just human nature, that’s just psychology. There’s some practical reasons for it as well. Obviously, earlier submissions, earlier deadlines are cheaper, so it’s better to get in. It’s just gonna cost you less money to do and then lastly, there are many festivals that are developing their program as they go. So as films are coming in, they’re shaping. We got a ton of dramas. Maybe we need two drama blocks, or, we, we don’t have enough sci-fi for a sci-fi blocks, we gotta spread it out or whatever. So if you come in late, you’re now trying to elbow some other film out of the way in order to find your screening slot.

Which don’t get me wrong, there are plenty of programmers that are absolutely gonna go to bat for you. They’re gonna fight hard to get you in. Doesn’t matter if you come in early or late or whatever, but the chances are just better. And the data shows that if you get in early. All that said, a couple of years ago, the very last film that came in with only two hours left in our deadline, we ended up programming it.

So it, it is possible.

BEN: Rudi, I cannot thank you enough. I can’t tell you how helpful this has been. There’s so much great information for filmmakers. Filmmakers submitted to festivals, people just interested in going to festivals. So thank you so much for taking the time.

RUDI: Hey it’s always a pleasure.

I always love talking film festivals and for any filmmakers out there, head on over to YouTube hit up the Film Festival Guide. That’s my YouTube page. I’m coming out with videos every two or three weeks. That’s about what I put ‘em out there for. So if you need any guidance or any, I don’t know, insight for film festivals that’s where I am.

BEN: Film Festival Guide. I’m a subscriber. I can’t recommend it enough. Any other social media where people can find you?

RUDI: Oh no, I’m terrible on social media. YouTube’s enough for me right now.

BEN: So Film Fest.

RUDI: I will probably expand in the future and I’ll probably make some announcement on the YouTube channel.

Got it. But for right now, I’m just trying to get good information out there to as many filmmakers as possible.

BEN: Thank you so much for doing that. It’s such a huge benefit for film.

RUDI: Thank you very much for the support and thank you very much for having me on. I enjoyed this. This was a lot of fun.

BEN: Me too. This was great. Thank you. And that was my interview with Rudy Womack, director of the Wyoming International Film Festival and creator of the great YouTube page, the Film Festival Guide. Hope you enjoyed this episode. If you did, please forward it to one person. Thank you and have a great day.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit benbo.substack.com

We moved away from traditional staff meetings. Instead of everyone sharing updates, we play dodgeball or cook together or learn from each other’s departments. Building trust and connection is more important than sharing information.

Nelima Lassen is the Principal of The International People’s College in Helsingør, Denmark.

In this conversation Nelima and I talk:

* What a Danish Folk School is

* Tracy Chapman fandom

* Core leadership values

* Rethinking staff meetings

* Approach to AI in 2025

* The amount of empathy students show each other

* Bonus: Tracy Chapman performing Fast Car at Wembley Stadium.

If you enjoyed this conversation please forward it to a friend.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit benbo.substack.com

 I had friends of mine who have said, “This is an important archive. Get everybody.” So that's my mission. It's a big one and it's going to take years. - Matt Collins

Matt Collins is a graduate of Amherst College, Class of 1994. He is the creator and host of The Pre-Made Podcast where, every week, he interviews one member from his class.

In this conversation Matt and I talk:

* Significant pivot points in his life.

* How he started The Pre-Made Podcast.

* How he produces the podcast, including initial outreach to potential guests, the equipment he uses, and thoughts about editing.

* How podcasting is different from what he thought podcasting was going to be.

* Things he’s learned from doing the podcast.

* Tips for being a good editor.

If you enjoyed this interview please forward it to one friend.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit benbo.substack.com