The Dareful Project

Regarded as one of the strongest corporate leaders of our time, Alan Mulally's legacy is marked by his transformative impact at Boeing and Ford. Under his leadership, Boeing thrived, and Ford not only returned to profitability but also emerged stronger from the Great Recession. This success was no accident; it was the result of Mulally's lifelong commitment to his "Working Together" Leadership & Management System. But as you'll discover, this approach extends far beyond the boardroom—encompassing family, community, and friendships, while addressing the critical challenge of work-life balance and how we show up for those we love.

This is not just a lesson in leadership; it's a masterclass in living with purpose.

Here is the presentation Alan shares during his discussion: "Working Together"

Or ping me and I'll email the presentation to you: [email protected]

Thanks for listening.

Debra

The Dareful Project podcast

Transcript:

Debra Hotaling (00:00:08):

Hello and welcome to the Dareful Project. I'm Debra Hotaling. I'm joined today for a very special conversation with business leader Alan Mulally. Now Alan is considered one of our strongest corporate leaders, and he has spent his entire professional life developing an approach called "Working Together Leadership and Management System." And … I want to quote here, "and it's connected and collaborative culture of love by design to create value for all the stakeholders and the greater good." He's going to coach us through all of this today.

In addition to Alan, we're also joined by Sarah MacArthur. She's editor in chief of Leader-to-Leader Journal, and she's an advisory member of the Francis Hesselbein Leadership Forum. She's going to keep us organized today because we're running this like a working session so that Alan can coach us through our approach. Welcome, Sarah.

Sarah MacArthur (00:01:08):

Nice to be here.

Debra (00:01:09):

Can we go to the first slide? So throughout his career, Alan has developed and nurtured the Working Together leadership and management system, and he's going to share with us how he developed this approach and as a result, how we can be better parents, leaders, friends, partners and community members. We're going to be sharing slides today, and I'm going to make sure that in our show notes that we share those slides so that you can go back and refer to them again. Sarah, let's go to slide two.

Debra (00:01:52):

So before we dive in a word or two about Alan's professional journey. So he served as president and CEO of Ford Motor Company from 2006 to 2014. And under his leadership, Ford transformed itself into one of the finest automotive companies in the world. And I had the pleasure of working under Alan's leadership during that time. Prior to joining Ford, Alan served as executive vice president for Boeing Company President and CEO of Boeing Commercial Airplanes and president of Boeing Information Space and Defense Systems. From 1969 to 2006, he was named one of the world's most influential people by Time Magazine. He was named Chief and Executive of the Year by Chief Executive Magazine and he was named number three on Fortune's World's greatest leaders, number three. And he's going to explain to us why being number three is important. He currently serves on the board of directors of Google, carbon 3D and the Mayo Clinic, and he sits with global leaders like he's sitting with us today coaching them on how to embrace working together in their own lives. We're going to learn more about that right now. Alan, welcome.

Alan Mulally (00:03:11):

Well, Debra, thank you so much and a great introduction. I really liked the number three that you pointed out, and I like everybody to know that. I mean, a lot of people ask me, well, Alan, how do you feel about this being number three? And my answer to them always is, I'm really pleased and happy to be number three because number one was the Pope and the rest of us, I'm still trying to go to heaven, so I'm very happy for him.

Debra (00:03:44):

So we have something to aspire to there.

Alan (00:03:47):

We all do because God is really important. Your religion's really important because to serve is to live.

Debra (00:03:55):

So let's get into this. Let's go to slide three, Sarah. So these are the questions that we want to talk with you about today, Alan, hoping you can coach us through. So let's start at the beginning. Let's go with our number one question there. You've served your family, Boeing and Ford and our communities around the world in such a positive way over the years, and so many folks have noticed and have tried to be better leaders based on your example, share with us how you're working together, leadership formation, how it formed, how it developed, and your service journey.

Alan (00:04:37):

I'll be happy to do that, Debra. And also it was really fun to agree on these four questions. They really capture who a person is, their leadership, their principles of practices and their beliefs, their values, and especially their behaviors to create value and growth for everyone around the world. So Sarah, if we can go to the next slide, please. Okay. Now this might be the best answer to the number one question. And this is a book that Francis Hesselbein, Marshall Goldsmith and Sarah wrote. And as you described in the introduction, Sarah is a fantastic leader and she also was a best friend, dear friend Francis and a coeditor of the Leader-to-Leader Journal. And also both of them were implementing the Peter Drucker, a foundation, which between the two of them, they were the two most significant leaders moving from command and control with the industrial Revolution to working together leaders that are including all the stakeholders.

Alan (00:06:01):

And so you look at on the right hand side of the book, and you can see that it was a phenomenal book or is a phenomenal book because it had, I think Sarah maybe what, 35 different authors? That's right. And 35 different authors that were asked by the three of them to write their thoughts for everybody about how is the best way to find your purpose in life and live that way to accomplish that. And so they came, all three of 'em came to see me, Debra, and they said, okay, Alan, we would like you to write the forward to our new book. And they described the new book on the right. And I said, do you mind if I read it? And said, no, no. So that's fine. So I read it and then I met with them again and I said, all three of 'em, you guys, this is a phenomenal book and the authors have great points and I don't think you really need me to be doing the front end of the book. I said, and then Francis said to me, well, you need to know why we're asking you to do this. And I said, okay. And I said, she said, well, Alan, everyone knows who you are. They know what you have done, but they all want to know why you are who you are. Why do you smile all the time? Why do you love people? Why do you include them and respect 'em and align everybody on whatever the compelling vision is you're working on?

Alan (00:07:42):

And I said, well, Francis, I never talk about myself. I never have. That's just not who I am because I care about all of us working together and what we're going to do for service. And she said, exactly, Alan, we want you to describe why you are who you are. I said, well, how should we do that? And she said, well, we'd like you to tell a story that starts with and includes everything about how you were formed. I said, well, where do you want me to start on that? And she said, she got real close again. And she said, when you were born, okay, well I've never done that, Francis. And she said, okay, so we'd love you to do it. So I said, okay, I'll try. I sat down, I started writing it, Debra and I started having fun. I'd never said, it's kind of a neat thing for everybody that we're talking to today is it's just write down your whole life and how you became who you are with your beliefs, your values, and also your behaviors. So I did it and I thought, oh, I bet they're going to give me a lot of suggestions for improvement. It looks like it's written by an engineer. It's got bullets and stuff like that as you can see.

Alan (00:09:08):

And so they read it and they said, okay, Alan, we and Wiley do not want to change one word about what you said here. So this is the first page, Sarah, the next page. So it starts out with talking about Francis. Then it describes Alan story. This is my writing. And you can see the first one, it gets really, really specific, very clear. The purpose of life is to love and be loved in that order. Thanks mom. Thanks dad. Okay, next slide please. And then it goes on about the story and from my first work or service and all the things that I did and working our way up through high school and college and how I wanted to pair Levi jeans and we didn't have very many resources and maybe some loafers. And so next slide please. And then it moves into the principles and practices that I learned as I was growing up.

Alan (00:10:18):

And we're going to talk about those starting with people first. I'll be darn people first. And so next slide please. And then it describes the principles and practices and the elements of the working together leadership and management system that we actually then use to implement those principles and practices. Next slide please. And then I sign it at the top at the bottom. And Sarah has been a phenomenal business partner. She was a business partner with Francis for her whole life. She's a business partner with Marshall Goldsmith. And then I was very fortunate that she accepted my invitation to join me to help further develop the presentation of the working together leadership and management system and the content and to teach it to others as you mentioned in your introduction. And then Sarah suggested that I would add my signature onto each of the pages because that's how I used to sign all of the multi-billion dollar contracts when I was at Boeing and at Ford. And that's my airplane

Debra (00:11:32):

And at Ford it was a heart. And as we know, there are folks who have left Ford and they still have that heart that you would send back to them. It had so much meaning.

Alan (00:11:45):

That's true too. Also, I signed all my stuff at Ford with that airplane, and I could tell you since you brought that up, so when Bill Ford was recruiting me and I arrived, all the people started looking at all of the information they could find about me. I was the first CEO in the automobile industry that ever had come from outside of the automobile industry. So here I was coming from the aviation aerospace industry. And so that was my airplane. And so they all saw that and they said, okay, Alan, we'd like to get you off to a good start and we want to suggest a drawing for you that would be an automobile, maybe even the F-150, the number one vehicle for 50 years. And I said, okay. So they worked on it. They kept bringing me versions of it, but they're all so sophisticated that I couldn't do it in two nanoseconds.

Alan (00:12:43):

I could my airplane. So I said, no, that's okay. I'll just, I don't need to sign anything. And so they came back the next day. They said, okay, okay, Alan, they kept saying, Mr. Mulally, okay, so Mr. Mulally, we would like you to use that same signature for all your work at Ford. And I said, really? And they said Yes, because we are working on potentially a flying automobile in the future. So that looks just like a flying automobile. So this is you are both Boeing and Ford now. Okay, now Sarah, next slide please. Okay, now Debra, I summarized all of that in this one slide for all of us today. And this describes my formation as a human being and also as a leader. And on the left hand side are all of the things that I learned from my parents. And Reverend Dr. Turner who was the head of the congregational church that was right across the street from our home in Lawrence, Kansas, who was absolutely terrific.

Alan (00:13:57):

And this is the education and the service that I learned. And you look down the left hand and then on the right hand side as the rest of my life. To your question about how I started out with the learnings on the left, then I continually furthered my education and my service through all of the other aspects of my life. So this is my answer to your question. And what's interesting about this on the left is how I learned this because as I mentioned, we didn't have a lot of resources, but my mom and my dad absolutely loved us and they taught us all these principles and practices and the way they would do that there was unbelievable because I mean, it was fun, but it was held very accountable for learning them. So every morning on the way to school out the door, from the day that I can remember, my mom and my dad would ask me these questions on the lip. So my mom would say, so Alan, do you remember the purpose of life? It can be very important for you today. I said, oh mom, I sure remember what you told me about that the purpose of life is to love and be loved. And my mom would get close to me and say, and honey, remember in that order?

Alan (00:15:23):

Then the next day my dad would say, honey, remember to serve is to live. Oh, absolutely dad. And that was very interesting to me because without a lot of resources, and back to my comment about I just wanted a pair of Wenjun shoes and some Levi jeans that fit in with everybody, that going to work would be really important because I learned from my dad that you get compensated for that. And so that's how I loved doing that. And that became my service. I never thought about it as work. I was there serving because I was living and serving was enabling me to live in a great way. So then the next day, seek to understand before seeking to be understood, phenomenal by working together with others, whoa, we all knew what the word working together was. I'm putting these in quotes because they took working together to a whole other level is when you work together, others, you can make the most positive contribution to the most people, not just the people you're working with, but for all the other people that are benefiting from what you're doing with these people.

Alan (00:16:40):

Expect the unexpected and expect to deal with it really in a rapidly changing world. Holy cow, this is important. And do it in a positive way. Absolutely. Lifelong learning and continuous improvement, such a big deal because the data says that most people have to get past about 35 or 40, and they stop on their lifelong learning and their continuous improvement. They think they're there, they have it, but we want to be learning every day for the rest of our life and continuously improving respect. Everyone, such a powerful thing. We are all creatures of God and we're worthy to be loved. Develop one integrated life that is your life's work of service, which is a powerful, powerful concept. As we all know, most people think you have two lives, you have your work and life, and you have your rest of your life. Well, don't you just have one life?

Alan (00:17:44):

So what you're going to talk about that a little bit and work's just part of it, especially if that work is your service. And then I'll never forget this one, Debra, ever. It's nice to be important, honey, but it's more important to be nice all the time. Okay? Now you look over on the right hand side and every aspect of my life with that, with those mindsets there I was focused on continuing education, lifelong learning, continuous improvement and service, whatever I was doing by myself, but also everybody I was working with was all about service. What are we about to serve others all the way through all the different jobs I had from TV guide route and paper route and construction and farming and helping all of the professors. I didn't. I needed to make the money to pay for my education, which I did.

Alan (00:18:53):

So too, Massachusetts Institute of Technology, continuing education and service and wonderful appreciation. And then Nicki, I met Nicki at the University of Kansas, and we've been married for 54 years and we have five children and a rapidly growing set of grandchildren. And again, talk about education when you get married and you have children, a lot of education and really, really important. My thesis advisor when I was working on my advanced degrees was the previous leader of aerodynamics at the university, I mean at Boeing. And he had decided to come to University of Kansas because he wanted to teach everything about aerospace and aeronautical engineering and airplane design. And I was his first graduate student working on my master's and my doctorate. And he was just a phenomenal influence on me, again with education and service.

Alan (00:20:11):

And he actually, Debra, he was one of the first professors that we did programs where we included all the different disciplines in graduate school and in college to create airplanes for Cessna and Boeing and Learjet. And so, and on one of 'em, we always voted for a leader. And on the one that was the biggest airplane project that we did, everybody voted for me to be the leader. And so he kept saying me when he was telling me about Boeing, and he said this in an article when I was nominated to be the engineer of the year for the seven seven, he said, I told Alan in addition to his nautical and national engineering, that his working together leadership was going to make a big difference when he joined Boeing. And then I never thought I was going to leave Boeing. And then I got a call from Bill Ford, the great grandson of Henry Ford.

Alan (00:21:13):

And I mean, he was so neat and he was so authentic and he shared everything with me, and I just couldn't believe how serious the situation there was. I'll tell you a little bit more about that. And so I decided, I never thought I'd leave Boeing, but I decided that I was being asked to serve at a second American and global icon for the good of the world. And so I accepted his invitation and served. So I served Boeing for 37 years and I served forward for eight years. And now Debra, because of you, we are here sharing now our working together leadership and management system with others. And the bottom line of this is on the bottom of this slide. And between Sarah and Marshall and Francis, they had this conversation with me over and over again and they explained this to me with great detail.

Alan (00:22:16):

So Alan, we know you well. You've done a great job of sharing your formation all the way along, and this is the way we think that you live. This is who you are, it's what you do and it's how you do it. And now for the first time, we asked you this because you have now shared with everybody why you are who you are and who you are. And what you do is you believe so much in working together with others. That's why it has quotes on the word working together, because working together is pretty a pretty known expression, but it means including all of the stakeholders that you're working with and you're going to work with them to include all of their knowledge and all of their expertise and all their caring, but also you're going to create value and growth for all of them also. So you're going to be doing this leading and you're going to lead with the who you are, and that is you lead to live as a human being and to love and to serve with humility. So that is the answer to your wonderful first question, which is the first time that I've ever shown this much detail in my whole life when I did this, working together with Francis, Sarah, and Marshall.

Debra (00:23:47):

Alan, it seems that your parents are remarkable people. Tell us their names so that we can remember them.

Alan (00:23:55):

Oh my gosh, Richard and Lorraine.

Debra (00:23:58):

Richard and Lorraine, thank you. Thank you for your service. They seem like amazing people.

Alan (00:24:07):

Well, they were so pleased and so proud. They had pictures of me. My mom kept track of every article that was written about me throughout the years and I stopped by frequently to see both of 'em, just so you know. They would always mention a few things down the left hand side just to share with me, oh, they saw an example of me doing that. So they were always building on what I was doing, so that I really appreciate their appreciation for who I was and why I was that way. Okay, did you have a next question?

Debra (00:24:52):

Alright, so let's dig into working together. Let's talk about, tell us more about the principles, practices, and the connected culture of love by design. How do we get started?

Alan (00:25:05):

And next slide please. Now, one thing for all the participants today and all of the people that are listening to a podcast and they're not seeing the slides you're going to have, as Debra said, you're going to have these all available. And so I'm sharing everything that's exactly on the slides. So just know if you're listening and you're not a chance, not getting a chance to see the slides right now that you're hearing the very same points that I want to share with you. And then you can also see the slides later to make 'em come alive even more. Okay? So this slide, the title is Our Working Together Principles and Practices and our Connected and Collaborative Culture of Love by Design. And Debra, I have been told so many times, I mean originally not so much now that I was the first CEO that people ever heard use the word love.

Alan (00:26:05):

No, I'm not looking for a date. I'm thinking about humanity and doing the right thing for a humanity. And a lot more people, of course understand that now as they're adopting and working together and moving away from command and control from a leadership point of view. And so this culture includes the operating processes that we use and the expected behaviors of all the participants. And all the participants means all the stakeholders, all the people that are inside your organization, profit, nonprofit, but also all the people that you're working with to deliver the service together. And the most important thing about both of these things, that operating process that we follow day in and day out, expected behaviors is that we together are creating a skilled, healthy, and psychologically safe and motivated teams. A psychologically safe environment is so important because this is going to be about authenticity.

Alan (00:27:18):

Everybody's sharing what the situation is, sharing what the issues are, because we all know this is a creative process, so we're going to have lots of issues that we're going to want to deal with in a positive way. And so having an organization that people feel safe and excited, not just safe, but they're excited about sharing the greens, the yellows, and the reds is going to be very, very enabling for everybody to help move from the greens, the yellows, and the red items up to delivering the strategy and the vision. So the key elements that we have in both the operating process and the expected behaviors are the following. First, I'll be darn people first. Love 'em up. So I combine what my mom and dad said with what I learned along the way, love 'em up and big heart next to 'em. Second one, everyone's included, all the stakeholders.

Alan (00:28:26):

Next, what we're about is a compelling vision, a comprehensive strategy for achieving it and relentless positive implementation of that strategy to create that vision. You can see why it's both the operating process and the expected behaviors to create this value for all the stakeholders and the greater good a clear performance goals one plan. Most organizations have multiple plans and people are trying to figure out what the plan is. Another one that's key is we love what people think. We love their opinions, we love them sharing, but we also want to know the facts and data that they're looking at because if we do have an issue and we want to work it together with them, is knowing what they are looking at is going to help us all move forward together even faster to solve the yellows, turn to greens and the reds to turn 'em to yellows, to greens.

Alan (00:29:30):

Then on the right hand side, expect the unexpected and expect to deal with it. Thanks mom. Thanks dad. You can see how everything about me is in these and practices. Next one, everyone knows the plan, all the participants know the plan, the status, and the areas need special attention. This is very rare, Debra, as you know in companies because a lot of people feel like if they have issues and they have some reds and yellows that that's embarrassing to them. Everybody's going to be worried about their company and no. And just use an example, when I went to Ford, we had so many reds. The first thing that Bill Ford shared with me, we're going to lose 17 billion. That's a little red. I mean a lot of red. And so the important thing is to be able to share what the situations are with authenticity.

Alan (00:30:30):

And then you're sharing with everybody inside and outside the organization what you're doing to turn the reds, the yellows and greens. So they get really excited about that and their value goes up of who you are and what you're doing. Okay? Propose a plan, positive, find a way attitude. The positive is absolutely key. We don't operate on the negative side because our belief is that we know we're going to have issues because this is a creative process again. And so we are expecting them and we are expecting to deal with them in a positive way. And then use all of our talent that turn the reds, the yellows, the greens, very sophisticated words in these principles and practices. Look at that, respect each other, listen to each other, help each other and appreciate each other. And look how these are all behaviors. You can see everything about what people are doing and how they're doing it.

Alan (00:31:36):

And we're going to talk a lot about that later and how that aligns with your beliefs and your values. It makes a big difference on moving those in a very positive way. When you're successful at doing this and you realize that these kinds of behaviors are what allow you to become very authentic with your beliefs, your values and your behaviors, emotional resilience, a lot of people think about this and it is kind of tough stuff and it's all a hard thing. And working together, it's fun. All you do is believe in all of these principles and practices. So if you have an issue, trust the process, go right back up to the top, make sure you got everybody involved that needs to be involved. You're all working together and you're going to solve every issue that comes up. The last one, have fun. Enjoy the journey and each other, Debra, every day, every morning, every night, I say thank you.

Alan (00:32:41):

I have never enjoyed my life as much as I do every day by living and doing this, working together leadership and management system, the difference we've made for the outputs, the results, the performance, but also the difference in everybody's lives that they get a chance. We all get a chance to be and do this and appreciate how much that is in all people that we're working with. And there's one really important principle and practices that goes along with that psychological safety in a big way is never a joke ever at anybody else's expense. And we all know what that's like when we hear jokes or people are putting people down or they think they're being funny. That's never funny. And when you're creating a psychologically safe environment and you want everybody to share what's going on, if they think they're going to be made fun of, or they're worried that maybe they're going to lose a job because they actually have moved to a culture where it's expected to share what the situation is.

Alan (00:33:54):

And most cultures you're expected only share an issue if you have an answer already. So now you're managing a secret again. And so you don't know what the situation is and you can't work together on solving it, never a joke anyone else's expense. And I mean that takes the whole thing to another level. Now it's all positive. It's all dealing with the principles and the issues that you have and you're doing it in a positive way. And of course the bottom line of all of this for everybody is PGA now at the bottom with a big heart on it. Now, PGA here, Debra does not stand for Professional Golf Association. It stands for profitable growth for all. And if you're not growing your institution profit or nonprofit, if you're not growing it, then it's dying. And remember, I always use profit because it was so simple and so straightforward, and it's so meaningful to explain the purpose of a business because profits equals revenue times margins.

Alan (00:35:08):

And great companies make products and services that people want and they value 'em, and that makes the sales go up. And simultaneously, if you're profitably growing, then you're also working on the productivity, the margins, because revenue equals profit times. I mean, revenue times, margins and good companies, everybody on there is on both of those. And if you're growing, it's a lot of fun to work on productivity because if you're not growing, working on productivity usually results in having to lay people off. And so then you wonder why people aren't excited about working on productivity, the ones that are going to lose their job. No, if you're growing, then you are getting now all of the emotional and the cognitive intelligence of being applied to not only the products, but also how you do it. And when you're growing, that is really an opportunity to figure out how to do more with less time and less energy, and people are excited about that. So the PGA results in creating value at all the stakeholders and growth of all the stakeholders because growing the business, but they're also growing themselves and they're helping grow each other. It's incredible.

Debra (00:36:40):

So Alan, we talked, before we leave this slide, everyone knows the plan, the status, and what needs special attention, which sounds great, but it doesn't always end up being that smooth. And you have a great story I'd love you to tell of when you went to Ford and started leading there. And Ford was in a very bad way, and still everyone felt compelled to come in with green rosy solutions to everything. And what you did for the first brave person who came in with, "we have a problem."

Alan (00:37:13):

Oh yes, absolutely. Well, as you implement any new culture or an improvement to a culture, the most important thing that I'd always do is to share everything that we're talking about today. So these are exactly the same slides and information that I took with me from Boeing that I used on every Boeing airplane from the 7 0 7 all the way up through the 7 87, and especially the triple seven airplane family. And so I shared all of these principles and practices plus the leadership and management system. I'm going to show you next with everybody. And they asked lots of great questions. I mean, the talent at Ford is phenomenal, and they were coming from all around the world. I'm going to show you that the real strategy was to create a one Ford, because Ford was set up by Henry Ford all around the world. So I selected all the leaders, they were fantastic leaders, every one of their disciplines, engineering, manufacturing, procurement, communications, HR, everything.

Alan (00:38:24):

And so I explained it to 'em and I thought, gosh, they thought this is going to be fun. We're going to do this every week. And I'd start out the meeting. They wanted me to start out the meeting and explain our vision, which I'm going to show you and the strategy and the plan and the status. And then each member of the team would then we go around the room and everyone would share their strategy, their status, and the areas need special attention and they'd color code 'em because that's a way to get everybody's attention about what the real set situation is. So we started the BPRs and a lot of 'em didn't know each other because from all around the world. So we started working on the relationship and that got to be really good. And we ended up having about 300 charts as they developed their charts.

Alan (00:39:22):

But it turned out that they were all green, to your point. And so I remember the first time that I'd leaned, leaned forward a little bit, and I looked at 'em because they're all connected all around the world too as we're doing the BPR, the business plan review every week for about two hours. And I go through the whole thing with everybody, and I said to them, now we've shared some data here you've never seen before by the finance leader, and that is we're going to lose 17 billion [dollars]. So I said to them, is there anything in your area responsibility that might not be going well? I mean eye contact went down to the floor and under the table and because again, like we talked about, this culture was new and heaven, this culture that was going to be transparent and you're expecting to share everything, and you're also supposed to share whether their reds or yellows are greens, and you're responsible for it, it more than anybody else. So it's accurate. So the next week they were all green again, and now people are looking a little bit more down underneath the table.

Alan (00:40:38):

And then Mark came in, Mark Fields, who was leading North America and including Canada, and they had an issue in Oakville, Canada with one of the new SUVs. And so we had agreed that we were going to make world-class quality and performance on all the vehicles, which we were doing. And so if we had an issue, then we wouldn't deliver those vehicles. So he stopped production. So he's having his meeting, his business plan review the night before we're doing ours, and up comes this chart that's about the launches of the new vehicles, that new product development. And usually we had 35, 40 vehicles around the world that we were creating. So up comes this vehicle and the three columns are the technical status, the schedule status, and also what it means to financial impact. And for this vehicle, it goes green, green, and green. And he says to his team, this looks like one of those red things Alan's talking about.

Alan (00:41:55):

And the team kind of listens and they go, yeah. And he said, so I think we should tell her this one red. And one of the senior vice presidents actually said to him, Debra, when we did this before, people sometimes just lost their job because you weren't supposed to bring up a problem if you didn't have a solution. And he said, well, I see why Alan's saying this. We all do. He wants us all to know so we all can work on it together and solve it. If we need help on this case, I think we'll solve it, but I see why he's asking this, so let's do it. And then another senior vice president says, John, nice to know you, mark, good luck. And so the next day we start the business plan review, green, green, green, and then up comes this red chart. Whoa. I mean it got so quiet, the eye contact went down to the floor again, they're kind of looking out of the side at me, they're looking at Mark. And I started to clap.

Alan (00:43:12):

And later on everybody told me that when they heard me clap that we were in the world headquarters of the Ford Motor Company in Dearborn, Michigan on the 11th floor. And two large doors were behind me, and they thought that my clap was going to result in those two doors opening. Two large human beings were going to come in and extract Mark from the meeting. So I said, Mark, that is fabulous, and that's the kind of visibility that we need, and can you tell us a little bit more about it? And do you need any of our help? Do you want to put that on the special attention list or not? And he explained it and he said, we just have run into it. We have people working on it. I think we're going to be able to solve it, and I'll let you know next week.

Alan (00:44:17):

I'll give you a status and then if we think we need everybody's help, I'll mention that too. So I said, that's great. And I also said to everybody, any of the leaders have anything you want to say right away to get help to Mark? And three of 'em had a comment. This all lasted for about, gosh, 20 seconds. But one of 'em said, the head of engineering worldwide said, Mark, I've seen that issue before. I'll get you that data today. And the one that in the quality leader had the same kind of comment. And then the head of manufacturing worldwide said, okay, I know we're going to figure this out, and so you're going to need some manufacturing engineers up there to help do the transition from your new part, from your old part to your new part, and then get the vehicles flowing around the world.

Alan (00:45:09):

I'll get those to Canada right away. And then we went on and next week it was the only red. And everybody's looking at me, they're looking at Mark. And I had said to Mark during the week, he was sitting on the other side of the round table, and I said, Mark, I'd like you to sit next to me this next week, but I forgot to tell him why I said that. And so he thought that I was going to fire him in front of everybody because he didn't. He still had a red item. And so he shows a red again and still supportive of him. And then a couple weeks later, it turns to yellow, and then a couple of weeks later it turns to green. And the next week, Debra, the entire 300 charts looked like they looked like they were in front of a rainbow.

Alan (00:46:06):

And there are a number of reds, but there were still a lot of greens and just a few yellows and a few reds because you want to celebrate all of the greens at the same time. You're looking at the yellows and the reds because this is about the whole thing. And there's a lot of things that there's always so many things to feel good about, and it's inspirational so that you positively work together on the reds that require you together. And so once we did that, then from then on, I knew no matter what happened, including the economic crisis in 2007 and eight, which is the worst recession we've ever had since the depression in the twenties and the very same process, it had a huge impact on us. And we did our working together and we actually did not ask for money from the US government. We did not go through bankruptcy like GM and Chrysler because the working together enabled us to deal with all those issues in a positive way.

Debra (00:47:19):

And the butterfly effect of that, which you might not know because you weren't for those of us down in the trenches when that happened, that story was told among Ford around the world. That was our sort of cultural moment. Did you hear what happened at the meeting? And Mark Fields absolutely. And Alan applauded. And so we knew in our hearts that this was a different organization and then we could be brave and we could share with our leaders.

Alan (00:47:48):

That's such an important part of Working Together because that data, we actually share Debra all the way down to the organization like you said. And so because it goes to everybody, because they're the ones that are leading color, coding them the following week. So the data goes down through everybody along with the financial data. Baca comes up, and when you're looking at the charts, what you see is here was the color last week, here's the color this week. So I've missed maybe 10, 12 BPRs in my 47 years a servant. And no matter where I am, even with the kids and we're traveling and stuff, they all want to see it too. So we just call in because they want to see all of the colors changing and here comes some new reds. Woo. Wow, that's exciting. They want to know about that. Then boom, here's a red going to yellow and a yellow going to green. Well, everybody's so excited about this because we're just continually making progress to deliver this strategy and that compelling vision and Boeing's case that safe and efficient transportation for everybody around the world. In Ford's case, it's the open highways to all mankind around the world. And we're watching the yellows and the greens and the reds and the reds going to yellow and green and delivering on schedule our fabulous, compelling vision.

Alan (00:49:25):

Okay, your next slide, next question.

Debra (00:49:30):

We've been talking about working together and leadership. Share with us how we can adopt that, how we can get started ourselves.

Alan (00:49:40):

Okay, that's really important the way you asked that question because these are the principles and practices and the leadership and management system is the way we implement it. And everybody knows the principles and practices, and now they also know starting with the BPR, exactly what the management system is that we're going to implement this. Okay, next slide please. Sarah. Oh, I'm sorry. I have two. I said a summary of this, but I want to show you some data. It goes with it. I talked about Boeing and Florida, so I want to show you how exciting this is to have a compelling vision. So here's Boeing, and this is you look on the left hand side. Here's a handwritten agreement that we made with Boeing signed by the leaders of Boeing and the leaders of United Airlines. And you can see on the right hand side, this is what's on the handwritten one.

Alan (00:50:44):

In order to launch an on time and a truly great airplane, we have a responsibility to work together. As you can see, where we really adopted the working together because we knew with United Airlines, this is the only way we were going to make the finest airplane ever designed in the world with the 7, 7, 7 family to design, produce and introduce an airplane that exceeds the expectations of flight crews, cabin crews, maintenance and support teams, and ultimately our passengers and the shippers. And now look at these performance results from day one, the best dispatch reliability in the industry. That means it leaves on schedule within a few minutes of the schedule every day. Unbelievable quality, reliability, maintainability, the greatest customer appeal in the industry. Whoa mean it's preferred by all of the airlines over every choice they have and everything works. And that is on the day from first delivery, not later.

Alan (00:52:07):

Like most of the products, it takes a few years to work your way through all that. We've already done all that testing ahead of time. So on day one, it's going to fly halfway around the world safely and efficiently. No airplane ever, ever has accomplished these objectives. And we did it by quote, working together. Richard Albaugh was head of sales for Boeing. Phil Condit was the head of engineering product development, and I was his leader for engineering and the seven airplane. And so next slide please. And here it is. Here's the seven seven, and this is the rollout. And all the people down below are 110,000 people that came to the rollout. And when you look at the slide, you're going to see all the people holding up their children so they can touch the bottom of the airplane.

Alan (00:53:11):

Not that they necessarily made the wing or the bottom of the airplane, but they would say to their kids, we can listen to 'em. Okay, now if you go straight up, honey, you're going to see the seats. Are you going to see the cockpit? Are you going to see this? And so you also can see on the front of the airplane up by the cockpit windows have a red cursive there. You look over at the top of the slide, you can see working together. So that's written on the airplane. Whoa. Now that is very unique because on airplanes getting ready for first flight, you always put on the pilot's name. They are the only ones that are on the airplane. Okay, next slide, please. Here they are. And so here's John and Kenny. And so look at the airplane and you can see they're working together now.

Alan (00:54:07):

And so when we painted the airplane, we had their names underneath the windows and they came to see me and they said, Alan, this is the most phenomenal experiences that we have ever had. We've never been invited from day one to help with the creation of the airplane, and it's going to be the best airplane ever, ever designed, and we would like to celebrate everybody that contributed. And so we want to replace our names with working together for the first life. And I could tell by the way they're saying it that I had to agree. And so I had them for fun. I had them share this idea with the entire leadership team at the BPR. I mean, I've never seen so many tears. They're going to have their name on the airplane working together. They're part of the team. And you can see all of the launch airlines, all their symbols, their brands down the left hand side.

Alan (00:55:17):

And then we did this first flight. Usually they're like an hour, an hour and a half for our first flight. And so we've done everything, verification, validation, everything ahead of time. But it works so well that their flight was over four and a half hours long and they had a couple of just small issues. They actually started a flight test program to validate all the rest of the airplane. So it was the most fantastic first flight ever. Okay, and next slide please. Now moving to Ford. Here is Bill Ford, and I told you about how wonderful he is. He's just a phenomenal leader. He's the head of the Ford Family, great grandson of Henry Ford. His whole career, I loved working with him. Best partnership, one of the best partnerships I've ever had.

Alan (00:56:18):

He actually said to me, if you want to replace me as the chairman in addition to the CEO of Ford, I'll be happy to give you that responsibility too. And I said to him, Bill, I would only come if you stayed as a chairman because you represent the entire Ford family. You own the company, you have this wonderful history. And so I'll only come if you stay as the chairman and we have one of the best working together relationships ever. I shared everything about him with working together, and that's one of the reasons, one, the biggest reason he wanted me to come and my experience implementing it. So next slide, please. And I included this for everybody that's watching too.

Alan (00:57:19):

Here's a slide of opening the highways to all mankind, and this is Henry Ford's original vision, early 1920s. And you can see the factory in Dearborn right behind. And you can see all the vehicles and all the words down at the bottom of this slide are so fun to read because he described everything about their strategy to accomplish this vision. And that strategy is almost verbatim the same as our working together strategy and that we use at Boeing and at Ford, and especially the working together part. And then next slide please. I included this for you and all of the team, all of the people that are watching. And this slide is the one Ford plan. So here's our strategy, and this was on a card that everybody carried. It was also on the walls in every office around the world. And on the run, half of it was the one team, one plan, one goal. So it had the basic strategy and the plan and look at the backside, had the expected behaviors. And all of those behaviors include all the ones that I showed you earlier. But I did it with the 14 because I wanted them to be part of it, and I wanted to tap into all of their knowledge and expertise and experience and look at the way they organized it, "FORD."

Alan (00:58:51):

So I mean this was adopted by all 400,000 people immediately. Plus it all went to all of the stakeholders also. And then you can see down at the bottom that five or six elements of the plan. And we were going to support, we're going to support the markets all around the world, not just the us. And you can see the size of the airplanes, small, medium, and large, where the small ones are really a big deal, which is what we really did. And which Ford's doing again now. And also they're going to be best in class and small, medium and large. And also the last element was a leadership team globally that is using, working together and all these expected behaviors. And that resulted in us moving from that $17 billion loss to 8, 7, 8, 9, 10 billion profits. And we became the number one brand in the United States the fastest growing around the world.

Alan (01:00:00):

We paid back all of our 23 and a half billion loan that we took out to help with the financing. Also, we moved from near the bottom on the automobile companies that the suppliers like to work with where we were number two, almost equal to Toyota, which is number one in the world. And the neatest, no, also on the profitable growth, we are intraday low on the stock price was a dollar one, and when I left, it was $18 and 37 cents. So we had appreciated approximately 1837%, which is why I get an email or a note every day from all of the people around the world about the value that we created as well as the growth for everybody. And then of course, the data that I just we all loved was the employee survey. And as we all know, the employee survey usually has all of the questions.

Alan (01:01:21):

And then they have a summary question and what do you think about the company and what they're about and what they're doing and their plan, their vision, their strategy and plan, and how well do you know it and how well do they respect you and how well are you being included? So all the things they ask in a survey, they summarize that, and then you fill out whether you agree with it or you don't, and what percent of the people you could see that believed in that. And so they did that, and at the first it was around 35% were positive. And what's interesting is that most companies are somewhere between 35 and 45% just in general everywhere around the world, which means what an opportunity, because that's saying that most people are not there to help build a cathedral. They're just here to make some money to try to live on.

Alan (01:02:24):

And so at Ford, we started out at 35%, and when I left, the percent positive on the employee survey was the 95%, and it was the highest in the world with this large phenomenal company. So again, this creating value and growth for all the stakeholders is just a very, very, very powerful concept where everybody, all the stakeholders benefit. Okay, now that leads me to your third question and next slide, Sarah. And here it is. And for everybody, this is a little bit more sophisticated slide, but it's really simple. And these are the five elements on the slide that make up the leadership and management working together system that creates this connected and collaborative culture of love by design that delivers creating value and growth for all the stakeholders and the greater good. So we covered the principles and practices. The governance process is really key that you have members of the board of directors that absolutely believe in this versus command and control and things like that, and they support selecting the CEO that operates this way and believes this along with the senior management team and then the leadership team.

Alan (01:04:02):

You can see all of the characteristics that are important. I mean, all the people that you recruit for, all the different jobs need to be world class at it, engineering, manufacturing, procurement, but also you're also including all the stakeholders. So stakeholder-centered leadership, if leaders are coaching and facilitating, not command and control, telling everybody what to do because you have all these hundreds of thousands of people that are really, really, really intelligent now with a very positive working together attitude and behaviors. And of course, cohesive, diverse, inclusive with everybody. Humility, love, service. Thank you, mom and dad, courage, discipline, resilience, ability, authenticity, which we're going to talk about integrity, positive mindsets, starting with growth and psychological safety. And also you can see the biggest one, one of the most important that we've talked about is that this leadership team is responsible and accountable for the leadership and management system with zero tolerance.

Alan (01:05:13):

To your question, Debra, that zero tolerance for violating the operating process or the expected behaviors, or you have that conversation with somebody and it's okay. I mean, it's okay if it doesn't work like we were talking about. Then you tell 'em it's okay because what they're doing is they're deciding to move on because they can't make it here and you love 'em up. Principals still love 'em up, but most of the people then will accept your opportunity to have a coach. The team's going to coach you and help you. And then of course when they move from wherever they are on command control or wherever their behaviors are to move in this way, it changes their life, which we're going to talk about your next question. And then using stakeholders that are coaching and which was embedded by Marshall Goldsmith, which starts with the team helping each one of us, including me, identify a couple of things a year that we're going to work on that'll further improve our leadership.

Alan (01:06:25):

And then of course, lifelong learning and continuous improvement. And then you won't go over on the left hand side and there's the creating value roadmap. Oh, I got to tell you about that underlying under leadership. So when Sarah and I were working on this, Sarah's phenomenal, I mean editor in chief, leader to leader journal on the best journals in the world on leadership and management. And so she sent me an update of this chart and it had an underline under the word leadership, and I called her up and I said, Sarah, somehow you got a mistake on her error on here. It added a line under leader. And she said, no, no. I was, I'm making a suggestion to you. I said, what's the suggestion? Well, leadership is really important and it's the whole team, and that's really important, but it starts with the leader.

Alan (01:07:16):

I went, oh, now I'm back to the same thing I ran into before. I don't talk about myself. She said, you're not talking about yourself. You're talking about the leader of the working together leadership and management system, and the leader is really important. Then the next element is creating value roadmap, and so the product, the process, the people, what the performance is, and then go out five years and what do those measures look like because why you're doing the strategy and what is the strategy for every one of those product process people and what the performance looks like, and you want to have a growth performance and you keep working on the strategy until you and all the stakeholders can determine this, you think is going to result, then profitable growth for all. Then the last one is the business plan review that we've talked about.

Alan (01:08:13):

Interesting. Once a week, like we talked about. Two, each of us starting with me and every other leader will go through the business environment from their perspective. So what's going on in engineering around the world, what's going on in manufacturing, what's going on with the environment, with the economy? And so that's why we were never surprised. That's why we could expect the unexpected and expect to deal with it because we knew what was going on. We were studying it even though it wasn't applicable to us maybe right then. And then our business strategy and plan the status and the forecast. We talked about the special attention for the areas that are red. And then also all during the year, we work on the better plan. So when we deliver this year's plan, we go out five years, we add another bar on profits where increasing that by like 10 to 15% at least. And we usually improve all of the performance in the interim years too. So this whole philosophy about growth, about the business, and also results and growth about all the people that are participating too. So it's all integrated to creating value and growth for all the stakeholders and all the participants.

Alan (01:09:38):

And so that's the leadership and management system. And so when you look at it in person, and also we have some references, it'll become really clear because it's really relatively simple and it's led, it all comes together. You can see how it comes together on every week in the business plan review. That's why everybody gets so knowledgeable about everything about it, starting with the vision, the strategy, and the plan. Also the operating processes and the expected behaviors. So I think you have one last question, Debra.

Debra (01:10:19):

Well, this is great. We've been mostly talking about work, but you're also known for your work life balance. So how do you do this? How do you balance all of this?

Alan (01:10:31):

Well, this is a very interesting question because back to where we started on sharing my life in my formation, I remember the first time I heard somebody say Work-life balance. Now, I wasn't an engineer yet, but I was developing those kind of characteristics. I thought to myself, what does that mean? Aren't you just alive? Isn't that one life? And what does it mean to have two different lives? And you have a lot more aspects about your life than just your work. And remember, I was moving to service. So even that word was kind of interesting to me. So next slide please. And if you look on this slide here, we had authentic. So Sarah and I were trying to think of what's the best word we could use to really capture what happens when you operate this way and you have behaviors this way, and then they start to change Who you are as a person and who you are is established with your beliefs and your values, what determines what your behaviors are.

Alan (01:11:52):

That's why people would always ask me, well, how do you find the beliefs and values and the people that you require that are needed to be a working together person? And I said, I'm not a psychiatrist, I'm not a psychologist. I don't know about all their mindsets, their beliefs and their values, but boy, I could sure see their behaviors. So everything that we've been talking about are about the behaviors, and then we're holding everybody starting with me accountable for these behaviors. And if we violate 'em, we'll just say we're sorry because now we have a list up there. We all know it. And so it's okay. Plus it creates this phenomenal culture that creates these phenomenal results. So Sarah and I decided to use the word authentic, looking through all the dictionary for one word, and we capture this, and it's the most straightforward definition in the entire dictionary.

Alan (01:12:47):

I think that is, it's an alignment between your beliefs, your values, and your behaviors. Oh, really? Now you think about everybody. Everybody think about your beliefs and your values and how many times, how different your behaviors are or what aspect of your life you're participating in. You go to work, you might act one way, you go to home, you might act another way. You might be even different on the way you think you behave when you're talking about yourself or your religion, whatever, what you believe in. And what happens with the working together is that you move in a very positive direction with your beliefs and values no matter where you start it out because you're so successful at these behaviors and they're so neat and they work so well and they're so fun, and you feel so good that now you even include everything that you're learning on beliefs, values, and behaviors to not only be aligned in one, but also now you are into lifelong learning and continuous improvement for the rest of your life. So what does that result? Then look at this next slide, please.

Alan (01:14:04):

Whoa. And here's another dynamite engineering drawing for you. One life and life's work of service. I didn't walk away from work. I know a lot of people that like to use that word, but I know that more people are going to start the more that they are associated with the working out of leadership and management system. Boy, that work turns into service. That's what you're doing. So it's your life's work of service and lifelong learning, and to look inside. This is a great exercise for everybody to do. Fill out the inside any way you want, all the aspects of your life, and then jot down what you think about each of those. And how's it going? How's your occupational life going? How's your family life doing? How's your spiritual life? How's your community life? How's your personal life? How was your life listening to Debra and joining her today?

Alan (01:15:11):

So everything, just jot down what you think and then also and think about what you might want to change about that because this working together culture is going to help you do that because everything that you're going to do, you're going to need working together to do it not just by yourself, but you're going to need to working together. And so this is what enables you to have an authentic and an integrated and one life of life's work of service. And by the way, now, this is your love made visible because you're leading with service, with humility and love. And now it's not just inside your head with your beliefs and your values. You are sharing this with everybody because that's what you love is what you're doing. So you can imagine the impact that has on people. If you look over on the right hand side, you can see the different ways that you can do the business plan, review for any aspect that you want on your life, like we've talked about.

Alan (01:16:27):

It's the key to working together, the business plan review or the working together leadership management system. Also, you can do this with your family. You can also do this for yourself. You're going to sit there, write down what your vision is, your strategy is, and your plan, assess it regularly, actually talk to other people, especially other stakeholders, to make sure that you're aligned with the way other people think of you and the way you're thinking about it. But you can use this process. But personally, family, small business, big business, always moving in a very positive direction to create value and growth for yourself. Okay, now next slide please. I'll show you one more.

Alan (01:17:22):

Here's another exercise. So Sarah and I put two exercises in here for you. One thing that really helps you do that previous assignment is fill out this chart. And for those who can't see it yet, here's a slide that you answer four questions. Who are you? Who are you? What are your beliefs and your values and your behaviors? Why are you who you are? And you guys, thank you Francis and Marshall and Sarah for taking me through that and sharing it with you all. And then what do you do? And then how do you do it? And I just filled this out for myself, and we've covered all this today. It's relatively simple. I checked with Nicki, I've checked with our kids, I've checked with Sarah Marshall, Sarah, I mean Francis, everybody. Because what you want to make sure of is that your awareness, your self-awareness is aligned with what other people think because then you can, and it's fun. You ask 'em, do you guys think I'm authentic? Do you think I love participating with everybody and I'm in service? I'm honest, I'm disciplined, I'm positive. And we always all have opportunities to improve. And then you use all your stakeholders to focus on those, and then you make improvement really fast. Okay, one more thing. Next slide please.

Alan (01:18:57):

This is phenomenal. We have included, and what we're looking at for everybody who is listening to the podcast is we have four pages of references. And there's so many things written about the working Together leadership management system because of Boeing and Ford and the size and to the largest corporations in the world, the largest exporter in the United States. I mean, it's just a big deal. And so a lot of people have captured the essence of the working together. And so we've included those references. And the way Sarah did it, it's phenomenal is that when you see the blue there, all you got to do is click on that and it actually goes to the reference so you don't have to wind around trying to figure it out. Although as a member of Google, I'm always welcoming you to Google anything because phenomenal. So we have a set of references for you to choose from. So that's all of the slides that we have that Debra's going to make available for everybody that has participated today. I think you're going to find this very interesting and help you with whatever you want to do on implementing whatever part of the working together that you'd like to do.

Debra (01:20:21):

Alan, thank you. Now, we had asked folks to share questions, and I remember when we would do media interviews with you, you would do what you called lightning round, which were fast answers to questions. So I want to ask a couple of questions that folks had submitted. Are you ready?

Alan (01:20:44):

I'm ready.

Debra (01:20:45):

Okay. So someone asked, how did you decide what's next after you retired from Ford?

Alan (01:20:52):

Well, I can see why they're asking me that because you, Debra, are phenomenal leader on helping people for the develop their mindsets. They have one life and life's work of service and love with humility. And so I think it's a great question and I love studying your work about it. I think you've phenomenal, and I know going to know what I'm going to say because that working together has included every aspect of my life or my entire life. So everything that I've been doing, I've been thinking about all those aspects all the way along. So it wasn't really just about my occupation on my family, what I think about myself, what I did for exercise, what I've done for continuing education, what I think about serving the greater good others. So I am just continuing that. And all I've done is I just modify a little bit, all the different ones because some of them I want to spend a little bit more time with. These grandchildren are phenomenal. I mean, it's just so much fun. And matter of fact, I wish I would've had them all a long time ago. I learned a lot from 'em and I learned some more about myself. And then of course, your physical activity, your diet, being on the board of Mayo has been phenomenal.

Alan (01:22:31):

And I still love tennis. I love golf. And so all of the love traveling. So all the things you get to think about and what's really neat if you've been practicing this all the way along, and boy, you get good at that, what you call that transition, but it really isn't a transition. You've just modified it a little bit to put an emphasis on the things you want. And so you'll be somebody that people will continue to call because maybe they haven't done that as much, or maybe they want to do it more now that they start thinking about all of it. They might be calling you away before they retire to ask you about your wonderful activities.

Debra (01:23:10):

That makes sense. Another question, how do you work through difficult decisions?

Alan (01:23:17):

Great question. And you can see it in the leadership management system, especially the BPR, because now, first of all, you know what they are. See, most people don't know what the issues are that they have. So the minute that one of your members knows what the issue is, they're sharing it with you. So now you know it, they're going to work on it because the vast majority of the time they solve it, their area of responsibility. And then if they want some help, then they just announce it and then we all apply to it in our special attention meeting, we solve it right away. And if it can't be solved following the same detail, then we actually work on a different little plan for that to make it work. And that's why everybody is excited about doing it. They know they're going to figure it out.

Debra (01:24:09):

Has the working together system ever not worked?

Alan (01:24:14):

Ooh, very straightforward question. No, it has always worked. And back to the last two questions is the issues. You work 'em in a timely manner, and if that issue you can't solve with what you thought the solution was ahead of it, then you know that you're going to use all your talents and figure out a new little part of the bigger compelling vision and the strategy with a better solution. And the fact that you're doing that all the way along, you're getting smarter. Just think about the five years of doing an airplane. You're getting smarter and smarter and smarter. So any issue that comes up, you're even a more able to come up with a solution.

Debra (01:25:01):

Someone asked, how do you address people who are not on board with your vision on how to move forward, which you've touched on, but can you role play a little bit with this? What are the words that you use when someone's not on board with you?

Alan (01:25:14):

Well, it's just a little bit more than what I shared is that we have it up on the walls, we have it everywhere. It's part of everybody's performance management. And so if somebody chooses, and I'll just use an example, somebody a couple of times, they'll in the business plan review, they'll go after somebody, they'll share something and they'll go after 'em in kind of an aggressive way, might have an opinion about what the answer is. And so they want to do that in an aggressive way and tell them, so we all watch this, and in my case, I'll just use my case, but everybody does the same thing. So I follow 'em up to their office. These are senior people, and I asked 'em how they thought the meeting went and they share. And I, what'd you think about the way you said that to so-and-So, well, I know it was a little bit much, but it was an important thing that I had to contribute.

Alan (01:26:10):

And I said, what did you think about everybody's response? The whole team was sitting there and he said, well, I thought they looked interested. Well, I think they looked scared. And they all said, do you notice they got really quiet? Well, I guess they did. Well, how do you think that's going to contribute to working together? The most important thing is that you have psychological safety and you're safe and you can share, and you're expected to share what the issues are. And it's not about you. You're not red, you're really green, and you are doing something no one else can do it. Showing insights that no one else can share so you can work together to solve 'em.

Alan (01:26:55):

And this person said, this leader said to me, Alan, I, I've had a great career. I've been promoted over and over again. I'm the senior person in this discipline. I'm very valuable. I don't know whether I can change my behaviors. And I usually would say to them, I understand. And they would say to me, Debra, oh, that's great, Alan, that's great because I just think it's so neat that I could just be me. I don't have to do this, chang[ing] my behaviors with everybody and it's okay with you, okay? And I respect you for that. That's great. Thank you very much.

Alan (01:27:49):

Well, not quite what I mean, what I mean is that it's okay because you're deciding to move on because we can't have what happened today because that'll destroy our working together culture. And so here's what I want you to do. I want you to go home tonight. I want you to talk to the people that you love and they love you. Tell 'em about what happened today. Then I want you to come back and tell me tomorrow what you're going to do. And if you want to stay, if you want to coach, I'll coach you personally too. And I'll admit for the team, we think the world of you because you're a human being and you're very, very talented.

Alan (01:28:38):

And if it doesn't work for you and you don't want to do it, then we'll see if we can find you a position that you don't have to interact with everybody this way. And also probably you might want to just go ahead and leave and do something else where you can be the way you want to be. And the reason I want you to come back and tell me is I don't want to guess. We all don't want to. If you come back and tell me you want to stay, then the first thing you're going to do in the next VPR is you're going to apologize for what you did in front of everybody in a nice way. That's not a big deal. I apologize every once in a while, and then you can tell 'em what you're going to do. And I guarantee you, if you say, I'd like to stay and I'd like you all to help me on my behaviors, work on a couple of 'em every year, I know you're going to feel really great and if you want to move on, I know you feel great too.

Alan (01:29:32):

So that's kind of the essence of your question. Very few people moved on that way, and that's the person I'm talking to you about eight years later. On the day that I left, he came over to see me and he said, Alan, do you remember the conversation we had where I chose to leave? I said, I sure do. And I also had stayed close to him through the eight years. I respected him so much I'd bother him by calling him and asking his thoughts on things which he loved. We stayed his good friends and he said, well, the one thing I want to tell you is of all the decisions I've made in my life, there's one I wish I had made that was just staying with you and move from commanding control to working together. So you can imagine when everybody knows that you're expect to held accountable, they know that if they operate, if they violate the process, they violate behaviors, then we're just going to talk to 'em about it, and then they can decide. And if they want to stay, we'll help. And of course, they're watching the smiles on everybody else's faces because they're all enjoying it. So it's a big decision you got to make. And it's okay. It's okay, Debra.

Debra (01:30:50):

That sort of relieves folks from having to feel like they have to be the bad guy because you've been clear all along. So it's a choice that you're making, right?

Alan (01:31:00):

It's that exactly. It's not the bad guy. And what's the other thing I just said? Oh, Debra, still love you. Yeah, you're a human being and I wish you the best.

Debra (01:31:13):

Alright, well that leads us to…I'm skipping to another question…So you were a leader and we all learned from you because you walked the halls and you stepped into meetings and we were able to see you in action all day long. Now we have hybrid work cultures where folks are working remote. How can leaders be good examples if they're not physically being good examples in front of their employees every day?

Alan (01:31:42):

Do what we're doing here today. I love Zoom, I love it. You know what people have told me, but they've also been learning themselves. Remember when the Zooms first start and we're all going, who is that person? Or I didn't understand, remember it wasn't as clear as it is right now. Look at the way we look right now. I mean Sarah and Debra and Alan, I mean, I don't care where we are. I mean we working together here. I mean, I can't think of anything that we could do if we're in person or on a Zoom that we'd be on top of what we did working on this subject that we decided to work on. So the technology's getting great. You can do it all around the world. What you want to do is whatever your versions of or a business plan review is, make sure you build in a very disciplined process where you go through the vision, the strategy, the plan, what the status is, the performance.

Alan (01:32:48):

You have everybody included and remember, and everybody that is in the organization where all of this is flowing around, all of the data and stuff. They can all do the same thing. And there's a lot of decisions that are going to be made about how we all really are going to work together. Some things. It really is something to be together, almost like you're not together physically. You better be together all the time on Zoom because you're going to be talking about something that you iterate it very fast. And so you're talking a lot about it. So I think that the key is to use the technology, but really use the work together leadership management system, tell you exactly what you have to do about seeing each other, having each other together and using all the technology that's available because you got to use everything as possible to enable this working together. You've got to tap into everybody's talent, gosh, and their behaviors and how fun they are. That's why we decided to do in this format today so that we could practice that together.

Debra (01:33:54):

Alright, last question, Alan. So you've worked, you've used the working together business plan review with your own family, you mentioned. Tell me how it works in a marriage. Tell me how it works with kids. We don't have to share secrets, but just how does that all work?

Alan (01:34:23):

I'll look around and see if any of the kids are, think he's here. No, they're not. They think it's so fun when people learn about this or we share it. Okay. So Nicki and our plan, our vision strategy was to have five children. And so we started the plan and then we started talking about it around the first one and then the second one for sure, when I came up to Nicki one time, I said, Nicki, with these children and having more of 'em, we need to have a business plan review every week so we can go over the vision, the strategy, and the plan and how it's going. And she said, honey, this is not Boeing and we don't need a business plan review. I said, so I just said, okay. And so I waited for a week and I came back next week.

Alan (01:35:23):

I said, okay, Nicki, I suggest that we need a family meeting every week. And she said, really? What would we do in a family meeting? I said, well, we come home from church and then the first thing we do is all of us, all seven of us would go around the house, pick up all of our stuff, take 'em back to the storage places, to our room, whatever. Because when you have a lot of people like this in a week, it looks like a bomb's gone off. I mean, it suffers everywhere. And you and I are doing it just like all the rest of the kids. We got stuff everywhere too. And then we go back to our rooms and including you and me, and we get our laundry and we bring it down to the laundry. And I think over time we'll have at least two washers and dryers because we know that we want to get all this done once a week when we doing the laundry every day. And so we do all the laundry together and then we all bring the laundry down to the kitchen, put it on the table, and then all seven of us sort the laundry because our compelling vision didn't include sort by yourself, the laundry of seven people. Holy cow, we have no idea where the socks are going. And we have three boys and two girls.

Alan (01:36:58):

And then that took you about, gosh, three minutes when you have seven people sorting the stuff and they know all their stuff. And then take the laundry back to their room, put it away, then bring their calendar down to the kitchen table, and we all sit around the table and they have their loose leaf notebook. And then we go around the table and every person goes through their schedule for next week and shares what they're doing and also any areas that they need help. You need some taxi cab service, some cheerleading support, parent teacher conference. And then we all look for opportunities to sign up to help each other. Then I'll go back, I'd go to Boeing and I'd sit down with my assistant and she built it into the schedule.

Alan (01:37:53):

And everybody knew where I, I'd disappear for an hour or two or whatever, but they knew I was back then. The next item was that along with that you needed to share anything that you're doing next week that could result in a very positive thing that would become public and we'd learn about, because we need to know about that. It's about our family, but also anything that'll be negative that you're going to choose to do, it'll impact our family. If you're going to steal something or do drugs or whatever, I mean, let us know ahead of time that we can be prepared to deal with this. Now, this didn't solve every issue as they're going through teenagers, but it sure helped if you're going to be accountable and responsible for what you're going to do.

Alan (01:38:48):

And then the follow on to that, or maybe right before that was that whatever you were doing, we go around the table and if you had any suggestions for improvement or questions about the working together or suggestion how to improve it, you would share that. I'll give one example where one of the girls asked said they're going to do a dance recital. And so they needed the driver because they weren't a driver yet. And so our oldest son has just gotten a driver's license and said, okay, I'd like to take you. That'd be great. And so she goes out and waits and he forgot her. So in this meeting on Sunday, she said, and this is how they learned to talk to each other and give feedback when you do this every week. So she said, okay, Chris, I'd like to tell you that just I could share with you that I really missed you last week, and I was really sorry that I missed my recital.

Alan (01:39:48):

I was so ready to do it and practice. And also I wanted you to see it. I wanted you to come. I wanted to share it with you because you're a dear friend and you forgot me. You forgot to pick me up. I have never seen him so white I and I never, ever saw him let her down again throughout her rest of her life. And so again, this process of working together allows you to have these conversations in such a civil way, in such a neat way. And you're not going after somebody else. They're talking about yourself, about what it meant to you and how that impacted you as opposed to saying somebody's this, that, whatever.

Alan (01:40:36):

And so people are very thoughtful and very sensitive. And then just one funny thing about it. So we are together two weeks or two times a year, somewhere around the world because they're everywhere. And every time they were together, especially after they could have a drink, they would start telling stories about their working together. And one time it didn't sound like they enjoyed that one very much. And I said, so why did you come or, and why didn't you say something? And they said, dad, do you remember what the last item was on the working together leadership and management system, our family meeting version of that? And I said, no, I don't know what to remember what the last item was. And they said, you passed out the allowances to all of us. Of course we needed to come and be and do working together.

Debra (01:41:41):

It all works together, right, Alan?

Alan (01:41:43):

It all works together.

Debra (01:41:46):

And we have all been working together today to learn. I am so appreciative of your insights and your sharing. Any last thoughts for us before we say goodbye?

Alan (01:41:59):

Well, it was a pleasure to see you again. Clearly, I'll always appreciate your service at Ford. Communication was unbelievably important, and it was so good. You can imagine with working together, sharing with everybody what the strategy is, what the vision is, what the strategy was, what the detailed plan was, sharing the reds, the yellows, the greens, including all the stakeholders, loving 'em up, communicating. That was incredible. And it's the best experience I've ever had of doing that. And then going through what we went through where our competitors were going bankrupt, and we didn't do that, and we created the best product line in the world at the time, and it was pretty phenomenal. So I'll always appreciate you and also, and everybody, I also appreciate what you're focused on after retirement too. I just think that's really cool. So I want to thank you. I want to thank Sarah Best partner, one of the best partners I've ever had, and thanks. Thank her for today too. And we're going to continue to serve the greater good by our activities with the leaders and stuff, but also with the work in the leadership management system. So I wish everybody, I wish everybody the very good fortune to just keep moving in a direction of service with love and with humility, because it's so good for all of mankind and it's so, so satisfying. It's so special.

Debra (01:43:54):

Alan, thank you so much for your generosity and for this masterclass in working together. Thanks again.

Alan (01:44:01):

You are welcome, and I'll hope to talk to you sooner rather than later. Okay. Thank you. Thanks, Sarah.

Debra (01:44:06):

Thanks Sarah.

Alan (01:44:08):

Thank you.

Debra (01:44:10):

Thanks for listening to the Dareful Project. Please follow, like and leave a review. It really helps. We're on all your favorite platforms, Spotify, apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, iHeartRadio, audible, tune in Amazon Music, Stitcher, SoundCloud, and YouTube. And to connect, you can email me at [email protected]. That's Debra, D-E-B-R-A at Dareful One. That's with the number one.com. Thanks for listening.

We're a spicy group, says Grace Creative LA founder Susan Lee Colby, "teenagers with money." She says it with love—because she's one of us and, as the founder of Grace Creative LA, she sees our potential. Susan points out Americans age 50 and up contribute so much to the U.S. economy that if we were counted as our own country, we'd constitute the world's third-largest economy. Listen to this terrific conversation with Susan about how she and her team are shaking up marketing to the midlife+ consumer--otherwise known as middlescence--why Twiggy rocks and how fashion is making 45+ the New Hot Thing.

We're talking with filmmaker Melissa Davey whose documentaries focus on the adventures of women over 60 including Beyond Sixty and her newest film, Climbing into Life. But like the women she features in her films, Melissa is unexpected. Find out more in our The Dareful Project conversation. Transcript: Debra Hotaling (00:05): Hello and welcome to The Dareful Project, a podcast series where we explore how cultural disruptors are re-imagining the second arc of our lives. If you like this episode, a gentle reminder to please review and share with your Dareful tribe. Today we're talking with filmmaker Melissa Davey, whose documentaries focus on women over 60 having great adventures and the women she features, Melissa is also having a great adventure and is really unexpected in all sorts of ways. We're going to find out how. Melissa, welcome! Melissa Davey (00:42): Thank you. It's so good to be here. Debra (00:45): So ground us. You did not start out as a filmmaker. How did you get here? Melissa (00:52): Oh boy. It's a long circuitous route. I will tell you, because I'm almost 74. So look at all of those years. I started out in nonprofits and maybe for 12 to 15 years, and then moved into the for-profit world and was a corporate executive for more than two decades, building and running a division of a large national company. And it was not my dream to do all of that, but it was where my route took me and things came before me and I grabbed them and I tried them and I did them and I enjoyed them. But honestly, when I was in the corporate world, I almost felt like an actor. I never would've chosen that for myself. But I just walked into it one day and it was a wonderful experience. But what happened was turned 65 while I was there, and I will tell you I was lucky that I was not in an ageist company. Melissa (01:59): There was no reason for me to leave at all. I could still be there today. There are many people, especially women in the company that are well over 65. But I hit that magic number 65, and I was reviewing my life and looking at the work that I was doing, and a bunch of things came together all at the same time. That kind of hit me in the head and I sat there saying, geez, is this it? Am I just going to die at this desk or what else I done? Good lord, I'm 65. I ought to take a look at that. So at the same time that I was thinking about my age and what else I wanted to do, the company was fought out again by venture capital. And I had been that through that rodeo a few times, and I knew that, oh my gosh, as one of the executives, I'm going to be required to sign up for another five years with this new sale. Melissa (03:01): And the CEO who I reported to said, think about it. What do you want to do? And it didn't take me long. I went to a meeting that week in DC, a congressional meeting for testifying about Social Security disability, which was a part of my job. And I remember sitting there thinking, my God, this is like deja vu, like Groundhog Day. I've been coming here for 20 years. The meeting isn't changing. What am I doing? Am I really making a change here? And so that was happening and work was happening, and I was getting older, and I was like, oh. So I left that day and I left early from DC I did not go back to work. I went and hung out with a friend when I got back here and she said, you need to come with me to pick up my daughter from school and then we'll go have some fun. Melissa (03:52): So driving up to pick up her daughter and take her to her horse barn after school, my friend said, I come here every day and I think they're making a movie over there. And I looked and there were lights and screens, and I was like, yeah. Oh my God, I love film and I've always loved film, and I am just so curious about it, how people made films, what it was like and what would it take and could I do it? I thought about that many times from the time I was a child. So there we are sitting on the side of the road and I said, I bet I know who it is, and she's looking at me, how the hell this could possibly be? And I said, well, it's a spooky looking setup, and it's an old creepy farmhouse, and it's Pennsylvania. It must be M. Night Shyamalan, it's got to be him. Melissa (04:46): And so he lives here and he does as scary movies and it looked like something he might do. So I pulled out my iPhone and I looked up his name and his website came up and on his website was a picture of where we were sitting. It was weird. It was this long driveway leading to a scary looking old farmhouse with all these crackly trees down the drive. And I'm looking at it and looking at his website and it says, M Night Shyamalan is making a micro budget film in Chester County, Pennsylvania. So I said, well, definitely it's him. And so there was a button on his website that said Charity Buzz, and I had never heard of that. So I hit it and it said, win a day on the set with M. Night Shyamalan. No. And so my friend is, yeah. Melissa (05:41): So my friend is like, well, obviously you have do this. So all of the proceeds from the bidding would go to the Milan Education Foundation, which I was reading about while I was sitting on the side of the road by the crackly trees. And the foundation was phenomenal. It's worldwide and they do great work. So I said, okay, so I can justify betting money to try to win a day on the set with him. Short story, I won the bet, and after putting in a lot of money against a dentist in New Jersey, they picked me and I was sitting at work at my desk and I knew they were going to call it. So I had my iPhone up and I was doing my work and meetings and my iPhones up and Bing, it came through Melissa, Davey, you have won a day on the set with M. Night Shyamalan . Melissa (06:32): And from there, within the month, I was with him for an eight to 10 hour day when he was filming his film, The Visit. And it was an amazing experience. I went there with absolutely no idea of what would happen. I figured he'd sit me in a seat and I'd get to watch. Well, he had me behind the camera asking me questions, telling me what he was doing. I was communicating with the crew. It was the most exhilarating experience I'd had in decades. I mean, it was amazing, so at lunch, yeah, Night and I were sitting together at lunch night. And he said, what do you do for work? And here I am trying to explain risk management insurance, social security, disability, blah, blah, blah, to this young guy, probably young enough to be my son if I'd had him very early. Melissa (07:38): And he had only been in film his whole life. So he kind of glazed over when I told him what I did. And he said, immediately, what do you really want to do? And I said, oh, I want your job. And he said, well, you better hurry up. And it was a silly conversation that today he would never remember, but it was when he said that, do you ever get that feeling in the pit of your stomach? Somebody just threw a brick at you. And I sat there and I thought, this is very odd that all of these circumstances have happened in this month with me thinking about work with me, going to DC with me, taking that afternoon off and going up the dirt road, and then sitting with him and him saying, well, what do you really want to do? And I just knew at that moment, I want to try to make a film. Melissa (08:34): And I went home late that night and my husband knew I was excited, and he was like, well, how did it go? And I said, John, I'm going to quit my job and I'm going to be a filmmaker. And he is known me for a long time. So he kind of just looked at me curiously and said, oh, okay. And then the next day I went to the CEO and I said, look, I'm going to give you a very long notice, but I am going to leave the company and I'm going to make a film. So I did. I gave a year's notice because I needed to mentor somebody to take over something that I had created for the company. And during that time, I had the ability and the time to figure out how am I going to start this process of filmmaking that I've never had any connection to other than a love of film and a curiosity about how they're made. Debra (09:32): As you're describing this, I'm thinking that this is a romcom with your own life as the love interest. Melissa (09:40): Could be. I mean, it could be, I mean, is a pretty curious story. And it's funny how it all happened, but I also, I tell you all this because things like this happen to people every day. It does. People are thinking about what they want to do and something might stop them, or people meet somebody and they challenge them to think about something a little bit differently and they might ignore it. So to me, the signs are already there all the time, but are we really connecting to them and are we curious about them and do we see them and do we follow through? Yeah. Debra (10:21): Can we talk a little bit more about that? Because it makes sense when you tell the story. It's cinema, it's cinematic, and it's obvious that you had to do this thing. But I think in real life, many of us have those aha moments, but they're so tiny or there's so much noise, noise to info ratio going on in our lives that it's super easy to miss that or to be afraid of it or to go, I can't already, that weird roommate that's in our head all the time starts talking it down. Can you talk a little bit more? Did you feel any of that? How did you kind of work through it? Melissa (11:00): Yeah, I really didn't. It was almost like a gut reaction. And I think that because I was older, maybe if I had, honestly, if I was 50, I probably would've said, oh my God, I can't do that. I have all these responsibilities and I have this, and I have that and my job and making money and saving money for the future. I think that if I had been younger, I would've let those voices stop me. But because I was older and because I was already thinking about change, I was more open to it. So seeing the signs, I see signs all the time, and I've seen them my whole life and many I did ignore, and I think back and I wonder, well, what if I had gone down that path? What if I had taken that detour? Would I have been doing something else today? Would my life look different than it does today? Probably, probably. But for the most part, when you are stopped, I think from going forward with any curiosity you have about a subject or something that's placed in front of you for sure, and it's usually around fear like, well, I don't know how to do that. I'm not trained to do that, so I'll just forget about it. I think that happens most of the time, most. Debra (12:25): So you decide to go, and then here's the big leap. So you're like, okay, I'm going to do it. I'm going to be a filmmaker. And then you think, what's next? What do I do? What did you do? Melissa (12:39): Okay. I knew logically from building businesses and creating teams that I needed people to help me. I needed people smarter than me that knew the film industry that would be able to help me make this happen. So I immediately started reaching out to anybody that I knew that had a connection in the Philadelphia area with filmmakers, producers, and I was introduced to a group in Philly and thought, well, this will be my first meeting and I'll throw it out there, see what they think, and maybe they will suggest somebody that I could meet with. Well, they liked the idea of the project. I already had the project in my head the day after I decided I was going to try to become a filmmaker. So I gave it to them and they said, wow, we would really like to do this with you. And that was Expressway Productions. And they were mostly young men, mostly, and I mean younger than my kids. And I thought, well, this is going to be interesting. They're going to be working with me, and I'm going to be the learner. And I was always the top dog boss. They're now going to be the boss showing me how to do this so that I can create something that makes sense. And so for the next almost three years, we worked together on the Beyond 60 film, and it was an incredible, incredible experience. Debra (14:10): So give us the pitch. What was the first project? Melissa (14:15): The first project is Beyond Sixty, and it is a documentary film telling the stories of nine women. And these nine women are from all over the country with completely different stories. They range in the age between 63 and 87, and really were highlighting their resilience, their life stories, and their continued relevance. So my goal was to say, look, if I'm going to become a documentary filmmaker, which I thought was the safest thing to do, I wasn't ready to write a script and try to do it that way. I thought, well, I'll tell real stories because I am a storyteller. I did it in business, I've done it in life, and it's comfortable for me, and people are usually comfortable telling me their stories. So I thought, well, what better to talk about than somebody like me, an older woman who's made changes in their lives, who've had good times, bad times, but they're still relevant and they're still doing new things and here's what they're doing. Melissa (15:19): And to put them out there on the big screen and tell the world that we are still relevant, we should not be ignored, we should not be invisible. And just because our looks change doesn't mean that our curiosity changes or our ability to do work and to do it better than we did when we were younger. So that was my whole goal of putting that out there. And it was an amazing experience doing it, and it made me realize that this process was really fun. It was difficult to learn in spots, but most of it was logical, and I guess I should do it again. So I'm on my second film now. Debra (16:07): And tell us about the second film. Melissa (16:10): The second film is Climbing Into Life, and it's in final stages of post-production right now. It just got the okay clearance review from my lawyer, and we're locking everything down this week, and it should be out for sound and color correction in the next couple of weeks and be ready to submit to film festivals in March. And climbing into Life is a story of one woman, and this time it's a woman who, she's now 72 years old, and she is the oldest woman to have climbed El Capitan in Yosemite National Park. And she just happens to be the mother of Alex Honnold of Free Solo. So if anybody has watched Free Solo, this is his mother, and her story is remarkable. And filming her was a joy and so much fun. And once again, another story of an older woman saying, look, I never did this before, but I became curious about it. So I thought I would try. And by doing baby steps, I led myself to be able to do this. And it's an incredible story, incredible story. Debra (17:26): You and I were talking about this before we started recording. I had the privilege of interviewing her back in 2021 for The Dareful Project, and she is incredibly smart. I loved our interview in fact, because there were a couple of questions where she's like, that's not a very good question. Here's what you should be asking me. And I just loved that there was a real high bar for any discussion that I had with her. Melissa (17:49): That is Deirdre! Debra (17:52): I'm like, okay, I'm bringing my A game for our convo. But folks should also know that she wasn't always climbing with Alex. She didn't start until later on. Melissa (18:05): She was in her sixties when she was 66 when she did the climb. So she didn't run until she was in her very late fifties and running started, and her daughter got her started running, and then she was so curious about what Alex was doing from a fear standpoint. She was like, I don't understand what this kid is doing, but I'm curious, so maybe he'll show me. And he was just showing her the Rock gym, the climbing gym, and that give it a try, mom, see what you can do. And she fell in love with it, and she's a very inwardly challenging individual, and she kind of liked it, and she knew she was weak in spots, but she thought, I can do this. Well, this would be a cool thing to do. So that led to, Hey, Alex, how about taking me up that huge rock? Melissa (19:01): And he's like, sure, mom, we can do that. And so she trained for many, many, many weeks in order to be able to make that climb. And she talks about how difficult it was. It was not easy for her because she was never an athlete. She was only an academic in so many ways, an artist, a musician, speaking several languages, an amazing a writer. She's an amazing woman. But to be able to in your later years become an athlete of sorts is remarkable. And it just goes to show you when you watch her, and I was with her in Yosemite and I was watching her climb, and she doesn't do it the way young people do. It's a difficult process, and she makes it very clear that I'm not trying to compete with the kids. I'm competing with myself, and I want to get to this point. So here, what do I have to do logically to get there? So her way of climbing might be different than somebody who's 35 and fit and climbs all the time, but she is so determined to do what it is and that she wants to do it and to get to the place she wants to get to that she does. And it's a remarkable story. Debra (20:19): I love what you just said because I'm reflecting on, I rock climb also badly, but super fun. But I climb with a lot of folks who are in their twenties and thirties, and so you're there and they're like, oh my God, I got to make this 5.11, whatever it is. And I realized I have a completely different metric of what success looks like. It's getting up there, it's sort of sitting with my fear. It is so much more robust and more interesting than just clicking a box. I love doing things now more than ever because I don't care about what I was supposed to measure myself against. It's a crazy feeling. Melissa (21:04): And that comes with age and experience, and that you realize that each one of us on the planet are completely different. So to put ourselves in a box where we say, in order to be considered a successful climber, you must be able to do this in so many hours or whatever. It's ridiculous. It's everybody's going to do it at their own pace and with their own little whatever it is that they need to help them get to that point. And that's the success. Getting to that point. Doesn't matter how long it takes or what you used to get there, like Deirdre talks about Mars and you know what Mars are and laddering yourself up that mountain. A young climber might say, well, that's not climbing. Well, I would argue she got to the top of El Capitan. I stood at that bottom, looking up at that monolith. It's amazing. And she got to the top and she got there in 13 hours. And I still, to this day, when I look at her and I look at how she climbs in her body, I don't know how she did that. It's an amazing feat to me. But she did it. And it doesn't matter if it was 13 hours or 50 hours or whatever, she got to the top. That's the success point. Debra (22:35): Amen. And you're like Jimmy Chin here of Free Solo because you were there too, except you're behind the camera. So tell us a little bit about that adventure. Melissa (22:45): Yeah, that was now, we were not there when she climbed, so we filmed her later after the climb was completed, but she has continued to climb throughout the world. And I spent five days with her in Yosemite and watching her climb, and I had a videographer with me that was a climber. So the climber, I didn't go up on the rocks with the camera. I had a climber videographer do that, and I was down at the bottom and doing all of the interviews and whatnot with her when she was on the ground or not too far up on the rock. And it was an amazing experience to have to be able to, I had to walk, I think it's a good mile into the bottom of El Capitan where you would begin to climb. And I remember the young climbers and the videographer saying to me, oh, no, no, no, it's just over there. Melissa (23:47): It's not going to be anything. It's no big deal. We'll meet you over there. So we start walking and we're walking, and then it starts, you're climbing, you're going up, and I'm like, are we going to go up there? What's going on? And so I was tripping and climbing over boulders that were as big as my house to try to get up to this point where the climbers start to climb. And I remember being out of breath, and I remember stopping to sit on rocks to catch my breath and thinking, oh my gosh, this is incredible. You have to build a complete sweat before you even get to the point where you start to climb. So I was completely impressed that she was able to make that mild trek and then start climbing so that I could watch her. And it was just an amazing, amazing experience to be in the beauty of Yosemite, which I have before, but I had never seen it in this light. I had never been there with climbers or gotten the history of Al Capitan and really felt connected to the climbing community there. It was just a beautiful experience. Debra (25:04): Oh my God, I can't wait to see this. Your own journey, though. It's hard enough to be a filmmaker, a documentary filmmaker, and to be a woman filmmaker. Tell us a little bit about what has surprised you along this journey? Melissa (25:21): What surprised me along the journey? Well, I don't know if it was a surprise. I kind of anticipated that being an older woman in this field trying to launch a first film or a second film, was not going to be well received. Not with people with balloons and megaphones saying, yay, go, this is awesome. I knew that was going to be a bit of a struggle, and it proved to be true. And when you get to the distribution stage and you're trying to find people who will talk to you, an unknown older woman about a film, about older women, there is not a huge audience that's ready to greet you. So it is a struggle to not feel bad about that, just accept it as the way it is, and try to figure out the back doors into companies and introductions to people that you need to make. And it's harder, I think it's harder to make those connections. And there aren't that many distributors that are run by older women. So you're constantly up against contacting distributors that have very young men who seem to be at the helm. And when you tell them what your film is about, it's kind of like, oh, okay, well, we'll take a look at it and let you know. So it took a long time to get a distributor… Debra (26:57): …but you did… Melissa (26:58): But I did, and not, am I thrilled with how the distribution has gone or what the distribution strategy is? No, but it was a real eyeopener as to what independent filmmakers have to go through in order to market their film. Because most of the distributors today for independent film put you on streaming platforms. And I am very grateful that I have a distributor that did that for me, and I'm on most all of the platforms, and the film gets seen, but they don't market it for you. So they charge a lot, but they don't market it. So you're stuck with continuing to find ways to get your film out in front of audiences that you think might enjoy it or be inspired by it. So it's a continual, the film's been done for three years, but I still continue to market it and speak in front of women's groups and whoever it is that wants to see the film can also have me there as a q and a after the film is seen. So I do a lot of that as well. And I will continue to do that with climbing into life. With the second film, I won't go the same route. The first route of going with an agent and a distributor was a learning experience for me because I had never done it before. This time around, I'm producing on my own, directing on my own, and hopefully figuring out how to find a distribution channel on my own so that I can keep a little bit more of the money that I threw into this wonderful project. Debra (28:46): How has these two projects changed your perspective on women and aging? Melissa (28:54): I've had the fortunate opportunity to work around a lot of older, very successful, active women. So I've known all along that women are capable and even more capable as long as they have their health more capable as they age. Meaning that their experience bucket is so full that no matter what challenge you put in front of them, they're able to call on something from the past that they experienced that helps them resolve whatever it is in front of them today. Very different from the time when I was 35, and my experience bucket was much smaller then. So I would not have the confidence level I think that I have today in my mid-seventies that I would've had, that I had in my 35 to 40 range. And I am able, and all of the women that I speak to are able to do tremendous new things in their lives. Melissa (30:01): They're not just doing what they were trained to do or what they have done for the last 30 years. They're doing new things and they're doing them in a big way. So I think what I have learned is that there is no age limit, and we should be promoting that as much as possible. And that's what I'm hoping that the films do that when maybe an older woman is sitting in front of the films thinking, I'm done. I retired from my job that I had for 40 years, and I guess that's it. I'll volunteer or do something. But maybe by watching these films, some of the women will inspire them to say, well, gee, I never thought about that. I never thought about that dream that I had as being a real possibility. And that's hoping to encourage women to at least have those conversations, not just with themselves, but with other people to help them see that there is a path to making change or making something new and trying something new. Debra (31:13): And I think we have a lot of guys who tune intoTthe Dareful Project as well. So this isn't a woman only conversation. This is for all of us… Melissa (31:22): Right? All of the men that I know that are over the age of 60, the message is the same to you. And I know many who have watched my film and were inspired by it. And I know many older men who are doing really cool things in their sixties, seventies, eighties, they're not stopping. I just wanted to really get women's voices out there, not to exclude the men, but because I think the invisibility of women is honestly much greater than it is for older men. So that was my purpose for really just the spotlighting of older women. Debra (32:01): And what you're talking about really resonates with me because you see, or you don't see women doing amazing things because they're just quietly being badass. They just go and they do their things. And so you may see them in the wild and not think, oh my God, look at you and what you're doing right now. They don't kind of care if you notice them or not because they're out having their adventure. Melissa (32:24): Exactly. I mean, there really is an invisibility factor. I mean, it definitely is there. Women become a bit invisible from the male gaze specifically as they age. And because of that, nobody sees what it is that they're doing. And because we are women and we're brought up for the most part, thinking that we should be quiet, polite, nice, not brag, not say what great things we're doing, it does go unnoticed. And if you stop seriously walking down the street, if you walk past me or another older woman, you're not going to know what their story is. And you're not going to turn your head and turn back and look and say, gee, I wonder what their story is. Now, if they were 30, maybe you would turn your head and say, wow, she looks really interesting. Wonder what her story is. Well, I'll tell you, the richer story is with the older woman, and we have to start listening to some of those stories to help us understand who we are, the choices we make, and what our possibilities are for the future. Debra (33:38): And what if those possibilities includes being an artist? What advice would you give for someone who has that hunger? Melissa (33:48): For me, it was making a list. Whatever your magic age is where you start to go, oh, do I really want to do this anymore? Or gee, I need to make a change. Gee, it's near retirement time. Am I going to just sit down and relax and play golf? Or what am I going to do? I encourage people to make a list of all of the fantasies that they've had in their life. I want to be a horse trainer. Or for me it was, I want to play the saxophone. I want to be a filmmaker. I had all these crazy ideas of things that I could see myself doing, but that I had no training in. Saxophone went down to the bottom when I realized, well, I don't read music, so I would have to learn how to do that first. And I think that's going to take a while. Melissa (34:40): So I think I'll put that down here, and maybe I'll do that in my eighties, I don't know. But if filmmaking just kept coming to the top, write a book, play the sax, make a film, and the filmmaking kept coming up. So whatever comes to the top of your list, don't ignore it, don't write it off. Start talking to people about it. Talk to a coach, talk to a counselor, talk to friends, talk to colleagues and say, I've always wanted to do this. What do you think? And you'll be surprised at how many people say, well, I've known you for 20 years. You can do that. You could easily do that. You have the tools in your kit to figure out how to do that, and I know somebody I can put you in touch with that. You can talk with a little bit more about this thing that you're interested in to just keep you on track. And I really encourage people, make the list. Find the thing that you're really interested in, and what harm is it to sit down and talk to people about it and see if you can take that first baby step to get to understanding whether it's a realistic idea or not. And if you do come to the point where it's unrealistic, go to the next thing on your list. But talking with people is probably the most helpful thing in anything in life when you're trying to make a decision about something. Debra (36:11): And having the courage to ask, because that is kind of the other superpower I notice of men and women our age, which is we know people and we know things, and we don't have to elbow everybody out of the way to get the next promotion. So it's all about making, oh my God, you totally have to know this person or make sure that you do this or Look, it's much more generous I find, at this age. Melissa (36:36): Oh, absolutely, absolutely. And for the most part, people our age don't feel intimidated with the ask. I don't care if somebody says, go away. I'm not going to take your call. Or, okay, I'll just go on to the next person. Where when I was younger, number one, I'd be afraid to make certain calls because I thought that they were going to say, go away. So sometimes I was frozen in time and unable to make that business call, whatever it may have been, or just crushed when they said no. Now when somebody says no, I'm like, okay, that's cool. And you kind of go on to the next person until you find somebody that is interested in your story and listening and maybe giving you some advice or handing you off to that next person that's going to help you. Definitely older people, men and women want to help one another move forward. It's a beautiful thing. Debra (37:36): What is going to be your next project? I know you're still in post-production on the current project, but are you already eyeing the next subject? Melissa (37:45): I'm going through this thing again where I'm making lists of do I want to continue making films or was there something else besides the saxophone on the list that I might want to try? And the reason that I'm kind of in angst about that is because I'm approaching 74 and it's kind of like, okay, if I'm going to do another big thing, another big change, how long will that take? And how long do I have? So I am feeling that pressure of how long will I be healthy and able to make big changes? So should I try to fit a whole bunch of things into that time or just stick with this? And my curiosity is big enough to say that I interested in writing a book, so I may do that, but I'm also interested in doing a short film. I've never done a short film. I've done two features. Maybe I could wedge in a little short film while I start this idea that I have for a book. Debra (38:51): So before we leave each other, what is the one thing that we all could do today, the tiniest little step that would move us in the direction of that top of the list idea that we have? Melissa (39:11): I think the one thing that we can do is sit down in quiet in meditation with ourselves and really ask ourselves, are we happy with where we are today? Is there anything we've left undone or unsaid? And do we want to try to figure out what that is? And I think the only way we come to those conclusions or ideas is by sitting still and by allowing ourselves to understand that no matter what we've done up until today, it isn't the end. And that there's always opportunity to do something new. And if there's some detours out there that we could take to help us find that, we need to start doing that today. And I think that that can lead you at least to the comfortable notion that you do have ideas and desires inside of you, and that fear is probably the biggest thing that's holding you back at this point. Melissa (40:17): As long as you have your health, I always put that in there. You have to be healthy enough to move to that next step. But to get rid of any fears that hold you back from trying something that you've never tried before, you have to address that. And you can't always address that by yourself. So reaching out to a coach or a counselor or a friend or someone that you can talk about as to why you might be stuck is very, very helpful and very important, and the first step in making the decision to try and do something different. Debra (40:55): I love that. Okay, Melissa, where can everybody find your films and you and keep track of you? Melissa (41:05): Okay. You can go to beyond sixty.com and you will figure out who I am on that website and get a feel for the film, and it will direct you as to where you can watch the film. The film is currently streaming on Apple tv, prime Video, Vimeo Voodoo, Google tv. It's on most of them. It's on transatlantic flights, so you can find the film there. You just type in beyond 60 SITY into the search bar on any of those streaming platforms, and you'll find it climbing into life. Like I said, will probably be submitting to film festivals in March. And at the same time, I'll be doing my research on how to get it distributed, and you can come to my website on Beyond 60, and there will be information in there as to when the film will be dropped. Debra (42:00): Wonderful. Melissa, thank you so much. Melissa (42:03): Thank you. I loved being here. It's great to meet you. I look forward to seeing Debra (42:07): You. Thanks for listening to The Dareful Project. Please follow, like and leave a review. It really helps. We're on all your favorite platforms, Spotify, apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, iHeartRadio, audible. Tune in Amazon Music, Stitcher, SoundCloud, and YouTube. And to connect, you can email me at [email protected]. That's Debra, D-E-B-R-A at Dareful one. That's with the number one.com. Thanks for listening.

Is it ever too late to get healthy? It's always possible, says Susan Guidi, who went from soft bod to bodybuilder in her 60s. We talk about limiting beliefs that get in the way of reaching our health goals, why lifting weights is so important and what happens when we ask the question, "If I can do this, what else is possible?"

How to find Susan:

Instagram: @kikimousegetsfit

We all face moments where we feel stuck. Becky Vollmer sees you. Vollmer is a speaker, journalist, yoga teacher and author of You Are Not Stuck: How Soul-Guided Choices Transform Fear into Freedom. We talk about how we get stuck—in our job, relationships, health-related choices—and what we can do right now to move forward. She reminds us that intention without action is just wishful thinking.

How to find Becky:

You Are Not Stuck website

Facebook

Instagram

Threads

Transcript:

Debra Hotaling (00:04):

Hello and welcome to the Dareful Project, a podcast series where we explore with cultural disruptors, how to reimagine the second arc of our life. I'm your host, Debra Hotaling with a reminder: if you like this episode with please like, review and share with your Dareful tribe. Today's guest is Becky Vollmer. She's a speaker, writer, yoga teacher, and author of a wonderful new book called You Are Not Stuck, how Soul Guided Choices Transform Fear Into Freedom. Becky, welcome.

Becky Vollmer (00:41):

Oh my dear. Thank you so much for having me.

Debra (00:44):

So we got a lot to cover. So ground us here. What was going on with you that prompted you to write this terrific book?

Becky (00:54):

Oh, mercy, that I have to go back a little bit in history because the actual writing of the book was a, we'll call it a multi-year project, and I probably have to define multi as about seven. I think that was the time it took to live and feel and absorb and integrate everything that went into it until the actual writing part was months long. But the living that led up to it was years. I'll say the best way to describe it very succinctly was that in a period of about three years, there were some back to back to whammies. I left corporate America of my own volition after decades of dreaming and never doing. About a year later, I finally had a reckoning about my relationship with alcohol and decided it was time to give it up for good. And I'm proud to say that I, I'm now celebrating 10 years sober.

Becky (02:13):

And then the third thing that happened within that three year period was that my marriage of about 10 years absolutely imploded and disintegrated in a way that I did not see coming. And so it was one of those things that knock you flat and then take an awfully long time to kind of peel yourself back up off the ground and begin walking again. So the actual, the idea for the book and the beginnings of plotting and scheming and writing the book happened within the first six months of leaving the corporate world. And then as life intervened and life demanded to be lived, it got pushed a little farther away. But I will say, I think that not only is the book better for it, but I am better for it because I had more time to practice the tools that I knew had helped me and would help me again. And I think just the lived experience is richer and richer and richer because of it.

Debra (03:25):

Did you know the tools when you were writing the book or did writing the book present the tools?

Becky (03:31):

Absolutely, yes, both. The answer is both. I will say that the premise, one of the underlying premises of the book is based on finding freedom in what I would call with a yoga mindset. And that is something that I had been at the time, I had been practicing yoga for, oh my gosh, by then almost 10 years, more than 10 years teaching for almost 10 years. And so those philosophies, those underlying credos were already sort of baked into my consciousness. Things like impermanence and non-attachment, but nothing is a better teacher than lived experience. And so I'd had the ability to apply that to one area of my life, the professional area of my life, but hadn't yet been able to apply it in ending a marriage that was a decade old. And I think even more the bigger teacher than that was the choice to eliminate alcohol from my life because that's something that had plagued my family for generations. I feel like I'm kind of the first generation cycle breaker in that regard in my family. And that one choice has opened up so many others that I never could have seen around the corner. And so to get back to your question, I would say some of the tools were there. Some of them I was in process learning, and some of them, oh my gosh, Deborah, some of them are still being revealed.

Debra (05:32):

It's easy to talk about it and it sounds linear and you have these building blocks and not you, but we have these building blocks and we are just like, okay, I'm just going to turn this one on and that one on and I'm going to be better. But it's way messier than that. For whatever reason we're stuck, whether it's professionally in our personal life, an addiction, spiritual growth. Talk to us a little bit about how you get out of the messiness and figure it out.

Becky (06:07):

Oh boy. I could talk on that question alone for six days and fact, I just came off of leading a four day yoga based retreat. And really that's what we talk about. How do we recognize where we're stuck? How do we recognize how that makes us feel and what it makes us do? How do we, it's always very easy to recognize what's not working, but what is involved in taking stock of what we want instead. It's not as simple as, oh, when I was a kid, I wanted to be an astronaut, or if I could give it all up, I would be, I'd shave my head and become a monk in Nepal. Yes, NASA is an option, Nepal is an option, but for most of us more realistically, the question is how do we better become rooted in our emotional states and rooted in our values? And I guess a simpler way of saying that is how can we learn to answer the questions? How do I feel and what do I need? And then actually have the courage to bring those answers into reality. And I tell people a lot, people say, oh, I just have to be braver. I am so filled with fear. I just have to learn to be braver. And my perspective on that is it's just a little bit different. It's that the opposite of fear isn't just courage. The opposite of fear is choice.

Becky (08:00):

And so from that place, being able to recognize we do all have choices to make, we do all have choices to contemplate that present themselves. Where we have to get brave is in finding the courage to actually make them.

Debra (08:24):

Tell me more about that, because choice is fascinating to me. I once heard a TED talk about making difficult choices, and part of it is making the choice. And then the second part is just going, except having agency that you go, I made the choice, now I'm owning whatever this is. I don't know if it's bad or good yet, I'm just going to own it. What do you see folks, or what have you gone through? What have you seen folks that you've been coaching go through when they are going from I need to be brave to, I'm going to make a choice.

Becky (08:56):

To me, if taking the front end of your question, I think a lot of people are missing the agency piece. They're missing the permission piece, they're missing empowerment. So several years ago when I first left the PR world and people congratulated me, oh, you are so brave. You decided you left. You didn't have a net plan B, oh God, I wish I could do what you did. And I remember thinking, oh girl, I was not brave. I didn't feel brave at all. I felt, in fact, I felt a little bit like a failure. I felt like, oh, I didn't have the grit within me to have what it takes in a very stressful, chaotic world, which of course was, I mean, that's a mindset issue, right? Yes. There was part of me that took issue with the fact that the world was misted, right? Nobody's really able to function well and sustainably in that kind of an environment over time.

Becky (10:08):

But the issue was that I took it personally and I thought it was a personal deficiency, and so therefore I felt like I didn't have choices. I felt like I was just backed up against the wall and there was really no good way out. But once that really settled with me for a while, and I did begin to understand there was a lot of bravery that went into that choice because it was kind of, there's a little bit of thumbing my nose at status quo, why would you leave something that looks so good on paper?

Becky (10:51):

So that got me really curious, big picture, why we collectively tend to stay put in situations where we are miserable and we could ostensibly make another choice. And so I put some research out into the field, and of course, this isn't the kind of statistically valid peer reviewed appearing in a journal kind of research, but several hundred people over time, more than a thousand people have taken this survey. And some of the questions I was getting to revealed what I now call the empowerment gap. So just to put some numbers around that, about six out of 10 people felt like they were ready to make a change, but then the number of people who said they felt empowered to change, oh, Deborah, it broke my heart. It was about 14% of people. So you've got 60%, something's got to change. And then 14% saying, I feel empowered to do this. And so it's within that space where if we can close that gap, it becomes much more easy for us to claim the agency that is ours and make the choices that we need in order to have the lives we want. But it's in that sense of I don't feel like I have the permission to do what I want. I don't feel like I've got the agency to choose for myself. And that to me, that's where the big tension is.

Debra (12:33):

I wonder though that we'll never feel empowered until we actually do this thing. We're scared to death. And then looking back, we go, oh, I was empowered to do that. Not sure I would ever feel ready. I kind of do the thing. And then looking back, I'm like, oh, I did actually do that thing.

Becky (12:54):

Yeah, I think there's a lot of empowerment in momentum. There's a lot of empowerment in having proven to yourself that you can, what I find is a necessary precursor to that is always coming back to our why. And that's the piece that I believe a lot of us tend to skip over. We think it's an issue of just taking action for action's sake as opposed to taking the most aligned action we can. And notice I say aligned and not strategic. Nobody would have told me it's a strategic choice for you to walk away from a partner track job a month before they're about to announce the next round of partners. That was maybe not the most strategic choice I'd ever made, but it was the most aligned choice I could have made. And the reason I was able to do it, in addition to feeling backed up against the wall was because I sat with my values long enough to recognize that they had evolved while I wasn't paying attention.

Becky (14:13):

I write about this in the book, and I cannot tell you how important, I mean, this is such a light bulb moment when I talk about this in workshops and retreats, the idea that values really shift when we're not paying attention. And then all of a sudden we reach a point in our lives and we're like, wow, I've been living by one set of rules that I didn't write when really if I was writing my own set of rules, I'd be doing things much differently. And the way we can see how it's easy to get there is just to look back in time, you are a baby. You are born into your family of origin, the circumstances in which you grow up, and either in a spoken way or in an unspoken way, just by observing people, it becomes pretty clear, this is how we do things around here.

Becky (15:11):

This is what's important to us. And then you get a little older and you go off to school. Maybe you go to a religious school. Maybe you go to a private boarding school in Switzerland. Maybe you're shipped off to military school. Maybe you're at the public school around the corner, no matter where the environment is, again, you sort of begin to observe and you get to absorb, this is how we do things around here. And you can play that forward in all these other scenarios. You go to work and again, said or unsaid, that company has a set of values. Maybe later you partner up with somebody. That person has a set of values that date back all the way to their family of origin, their faith community, their activities, their school, their professional experience. And when you partner up, some of us will have an honest conversation about, okay, how do we meld our values? How do we make sure that nobody's gets lost in the shuffle? But I think what happens so much more often, especially for women, is that we will find ourselves in our forties, fifties, sixties, and it's like we get hit upside the head with this frying pan of realization that is, oh my gosh, I've been living by everybody else's values than my own.

Debra (16:55):

I wrote down the evolving while not paying attention. The not paying attention feels. That is really an important point. So you talk with a lot of folks in your retreats through your book. What are some of the tools that you find are most helpful as folks are just coming to that, the frying pans just hit upside the head? What happened? What's next?

Becky (17:29):

What's next is that we tend to get really honest about the fears that have been holding people back, whether consciously or subconsciously by fears. It's not like, oh, I'm afraid of spiders, so I can't make any big choices. But when we can identify this whole universe of fears that are really common to a lot of us, I have fear of failure. I have fear of being judged harshly. I have fear of being criticized. I have fear of being under-resourced, whether financially, emotionally, in the daily necessary work of my life, I have a fear that I'm going to be ostracized. I have a fear that somebody's going to call me crazy. I have a fear that I might sacrifice the wrong thing at the wrong time. I have a fear that I don't know what the heck I'm doing. I have a fear that I dunno how to do it. Or the one that I think underpins a lot of us is if I make the wrong choice, I will somehow end up alone.

Becky (18:54):

I will somehow understand this lifelong narrative in my mind that I'm not worthy of choosing for myself. And that's not something, that's not something that usually emerges to the top of consciousness, right? That a sense of unworthiness. But when we start to examine and poke holes at things and reveal what's a little deeper, it's almost like picking up a rock. And you look at what's under there and it's all these nasty creepy crawleys. Our first instinct is just to slam that rock back down. Meet my friend Sadie Jane. Hey, Sadie. I think Sadie's announcing the presence of the Amazon ferry. So we want to slam that rock down, but really, if we can sit with the creepy crawlies, the thing that we least want to look at, we will and view it with some compassion. We begin to understand that there are some deep reasons why we are afraid of change and that they are universal.

Becky (20:13):

It's so powerful to sit in a room full of people where we bring these issues up and you just see the heads nodding and the hands kind of going up and just all of these ways that we reinforce. Yeah, me too. I'm scared too. But then after we sort of marinate in the fears for a while, to me the only, oh, I shouldn't say the only. To me a very powerful antidote to being mired in our fears is to recognize that, and this is where the yoga philosophy comes in, but that we are more than this meat suit packaging that we're wearing, right? I come back to this epic quote, and I wish I could tell you it was from Rumi or Heis or someone. It's not best as I can tell. It was from a dude on Twitter who went by the handle pork beard. But pork beards, very wise words were you're a meat coated skeleton made of stardust. What do you have to be scared of?

Becky (21:28):

And that really is, I mean, that is yoga philosophy translated for the modern age. You are a meat coated skeleton made of stardust. What do you have to be scared of? And so when I find that when people realize, wait, you're telling me I'm stardust. You're telling me I'm stardust and by stardust, for me, that really is shorthand for whatever you want to call that big energy out there, around there, up there, wherever it may live for you. But that's shorthand for I'm the universe. I am infinite, I am God. And so in the retreats that I do, I love it when people absorb the idea of stardust as new language that they can take with them back into their lives. And I get messages from people all the time with this, just the new found empowerment that comes from this new found confidence that they are stardust. And boy, don't you look at your choices a little bit differently when you think you are made with the stuff of God or the universe instead of those creepy crawly fears that you don't want to look at.

Speaker 3 (23:05):

Yes, yes.

Becky (23:09):

It restructures the whole conversation. It makes the choices so much different. I'll give you, this is going to be a very silly example of what impermanence looks like in our day and age, but it's illustrative. As you look at me, you'll notice I have a number of tattoos that I didn't have 10 years ago, even though I had always wanted to have lots of tattoos. But the society that I was in said, that's not cool.

Debra (23:44):

You're not going to show at a client meeting with tattoos all over you…

Becky (23:47):

That's right. And even more than that, that I was afraid of what my mother would say. And so here I was, I 40 years old. I was a mother, I was a matriarch in my own hope. I counseled c-suite executives, and I was afraid of what my mother would say if I got a tattoo. And so for me to sit down in that chair and let an artist put some ink to adorn my vessel, to me, that was at the time, it felt like the ultimate rebellion because it was my nod to, it's all impermanent this, and by this I'm reflecting on my body. This all ends, right? This is going to end soon. Why not adorn it while I'm here? And so if you were to extrapolate the lesson from that and bump it up and bump it up to have a little bit bigger meaning, if I recognize that I made a stardust and this human experience that I'm having is a real reflection of our impermanence, it takes the pressure off and allows us to be a little more bold. Yes, we still have to pay taxes. Yes, we still have to pay the rent, right? It'd be great if we can put aside some money for retirement, but why not reframe the environment in which we're making choices?

Debra (25:20):

What happens to people when you work through that again, when you just got back from coaching some folks earlier this week?

Becky (25:30):

Yeah.

Debra (25:31):

What happens?

Becky (25:38):

Well, I'm smiling because I know in my email inbox right now, there's a group email and everybody I've just kind of been observing from the background is everybody is sharing their experiences. So we've now been three days since we were last together. And they're talking about the shift that they've had in their mindset, the courageous conversations they've gone home and had with their spouses, with their employers, with people in their lives with whom they have problematic relationships with substances in their lives and habits in their lives that have been holding them back. And it is so heartening to observe. People come to this place of, I am stardust. I have choices just because something hasn't, maybe it's worked up to now or up until a couple years, but if I recognize that I have not just the permission to make a different choice, but man, I have a mandate. I've got a mandate to make a different choice.

Becky (27:02):

It is incredible to watch this speed with which those choices get put into action. Because what I ask people to do is we're not going to Thelma and Louise this into existence. That's not always the healthiest way. Sometimes it's a necessity, but more often than not, I ask people to begin to think in their immediate choices, what they might do near term, what they might do a little bit longer term. And the question is not what do I want to do? The question that I've asked people to sit with is how do I want to feel? How do I want to feel when my head hits the pillow at night? How do I want to feel when I wake up in the morning? And if those things become the answer to that kind of becomes the why. What needs to change? That usually reveals itself pretty quickly. I want to feel a certain way based on my values that have evolved based on the person I am now based also on the idea that I am stardust. And so what needs to change? It kind of starts flashing. It's a little bit of a neon sign where people really get tripped up is the, okay, how am I going to do that? We spend a lot of time talking about three important things, trade-offs, consequences and boundaries.

Becky (28:45):

We can't just say, okay, I'm going to go do X, y, z. Well, here we do have to be strategic in thinking about, okay, well, I do this. If I step in this direction, that's likely going to have an impact over here. And then the question becomes, am I willing to live with that or not? And so it becomes, when we look at trade-offs, consequences, boundaries, it becomes that living, breathing exercise, trying to answer, what am I really willing to do to have this life that I've identified that I want? But it's also important to ask, what am I willing to not do? What am I willing to forego? What am I willing to defer? What am I willing to release? And so once we get the answers to those questions and folks have an understanding of, okay, here's why I want to feel differently. Here's how I want to feel. Here's what needs to change. And then I ask them just to identify what is, what's the one first thing you're going to do about it? And it's not usually I'm going to go home and blow shit up. It's not that. It is. I recognize that I need to do some work with my inner experience and my perceptions of my experience so that I can more comfortably go out and make the changes I want to make. I've got to remove some of these blocks and some of these obstacles. And they recognize it's not about the blowing up of the shit. It's about doing more inner work to open the path.

Debra (30:31):

And what's funny about it is that you feel the work and you feel completely different inside. Like, oh, if I don't come to this conversation with this preconceived notion of how it's going to go, it changes the way that that person reacts to me. And yet, on the outside, you look like exactly the same person that you were five seconds ago before you started behaving that way.

Becky (30:54):

But the light in your eyes is different.

Debra (30:56):

Yeah.

Becky (30:57):

Yeah. The peace in your heart is different. Meat suit might look exactly the same, but you can see that the stardust just dial up the brightness.

Debra (31:09):

I want to follow up though. You talked about trade-offs, consequences, and then boundaries. I get trade-offs in consequences. Tell me more about boundaries.

Becky (31:19):

Well, let's just take an example and sort of play it through. I want to focus on myself, and let's just say a person wants to go get some help releasing some long held trauma that's going to require some work that's going to require some time, some energy, some attention. And so where the boundaries may come into play is in what does that person need? What kind of framework and structure do they need to establish in order to prioritize this thing that they want to heal within themselves? And so that may mean, honey, I'm sorry. I am not going to be able to take you to soccer practice on Tuesday night because I have a therapy appointment. Can you please arrange for a friend to take you? And then an hour before practice, mom, I forgot to ask my friend to take me. And now they're not answering their texts. Can you just take me to practice? Oh, babe, I'm sorry. I've told you 10 times. Tuesday night is my therapy night and I can't miss it at this point, which is a really hard thing for a mom to do, right? Yeah.

Debra (33:01):

My heart is seizing up right now just as you're saying that. Yes.

Becky (33:05):

Right, right. And that's just one example of creating a boundary. It's not a brick wall that somebody can't, that somebody can't knock through. But it is this gentle but powerful. One of my mentors, a woman named Heather Plett, she talks of boundaries as like this membrane that stands between you and a thing that threatens to undo you. Right now, the membrane, again, it's not a brick wall, but it's also not so porous that it's ineffective. It's still a gentle, it's got some fluidity to it. You're not going to bounce. You're not going to just completely crash and crumble into ash when you run into it, you might bounce off. But so ways to protect your own energy, your own sense of how you have planned to spend the currency of your life, right? Your energy, your attention, your time, your money, and to be able to place some gentle boundaries around those that you can be spending that currency. You can be prioritizing your activities in a way that supports your values.

Debra (34:37):

Becky, what do you do when you lapse on attention or you get unfocused? How do you get yourself back on the path?

Becky (34:51):

The shortest answer to that is that I come back to my breath because that moment of recognition, I am out of alignment. There sometimes needs to be a pretty significant step back onto the path. But we don't even get to that. If we can't first come to our breath, remember our why. Remember our stardust calm, the nervous system. We can't make those confident, purposeful strides back on track until we feel it in the deeper place within us. So

Debra (35:45):

We've covered a lot today. Tell us the one thing. It could be micro, it could be start us size. What is the one thing we could do today to begin?

Becky (36:01):

I think it's to pay attention. I think in many ways it's learning to pay attention to your nervous system. In yoga, the progression from being standing here in our meat suit all the way to finding bliss with the divine, the work that happens in between there is we learn to control our body so that we can control the breath, and we learn to control the breath so that we can control the mind. And so if we start with body sensations, what is my nervous system feeling right now? What's my heart rate like? Is my head hurting?

Becky (36:50):

I, how's my digestion and elimination systems working? Do I feel short of breath? Am I sweating? Do I have a lump in my throat? And so to be able to translate that body awareness into a sense of what does that mean for my emotional state? How am I feeling? Am I feeling nervous? Am I feeling afraid? Am I feeling anger? Am I feeling resentment, hopelessness, confusion, you name it. All of those emotions have a corresponding body sensation that if we can learn to speak that language, we become so much more intelligent about ourselves and our experience. And so if we could learn to begin that process, and then from there, learn what we need to do to regulate the nervous system. So we start with the self-awareness, and then we move into this place of self-regulation because we can't make any smart, strategic, thoughtful choices when we are in a state of fight or flight or freeze or desperation or shutdown. We just can't. So we've got to, if we can begin with the body and learn how to just sort of bring everything to center. You see the way you took a breath when I said that, it's like your body inherently knows how to calm itself. Your body told you to take that breath and didn't it feel good?

Debra (38:35):

Great.

Becky (38:36):

Yeah. We come back to the breath

Debra (38:39):

And paying attention. Well, Becky, this has been so lovely and I want to make sure everybody knows to buy your book. We'll make sure that there are links. They can find you on LinkedIn and where else can folks find you? Becky?

Becky (38:57):

Everything is around the name. You are not stuck. So the website, you are not stuck.com. Facebook, Instagram threads. It's all the handle at you are not stuck.

Debra (39:07):

Wonderful. Becky, thank you so much.

Becky (39:11):

Thank you for having me. I appreciate it so much.

Debra (39:15):

Thanks for listening to the Dareful Project. Please follow, like and leave a review. It really helps. We're on all your favorite platforms, Spotify, apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, iHeartRadio, audible. Tune in Amazon Music, Stitcher, SoundCloud, and YouTube. And to connect, you can email me at [email protected]. That's Debra, D-E-B-R-A at Dareful one. That's what the number one.com. Thanks for listening.

Carl Honoré is a journalist, author and TED speaker. He's also the voice of the global Slow Movement. He has written a series of books on the topic of slowness, slow parenting, slow living and ageing, and he travels the world as a speaker, sharing how to thrive in a fast world. His TED Talks have millions of views.

Carl also has a new book coming out in the U.S., Slow Adventures: 40 real life journeys by boat, bike, foot and train. In this episode, we talk about why slow matters, his ah-ha moment reading a bedtime story to his son and practical steps we can all take today to live tempo giusto, the right speed.

Transcript:

Debra Hotaling (00:04):

Hello and welcome to the Dareful Project. I'm Debra Hotaling. Carl Honore is a renowned journalist, author and TED speaker. He's also the voice for the global slow movement. He's written several books on the topic of slowness, slow parenting, slow living and aging, and he travels the world as a speaker. In fact, his TED Talks have millions of views and he has a new book out. It's called Slow Adventures, 40 Real Life Journeys by Boat, bike, foot and Train.

Carl, welcome.

Carl Honore (00:39):

Thank you very much. It's great to be with you.

Debra (00:41):

So I first have to make a confession, real deal here, Carl. I super, super struggle with slow. I'm the person who's over caffeinated. I've actually had job reviews at the end of the year where they're like, you got to slow it down on those business phone calls. This is something that I really struggle with. Ground me on the basics.

Carl (01:10):

Well, you'll be relieved to hear as a fellow type A, that the slow revolution and the slow philosophy is not about doing everything slowly, which would just be an absolute nightmare for you, me and many other people in between. No, it's about doing things at the right speed. So musicians have a lovely term. They talk about the tempo giusto, the correct tempo for each piece of music, and that kind of gets at with the slow culture quake, the slow movement is all about, it's about choosing the right tempo for the moment. So sometimes yes, fast, sometimes you want to be in turbo mode, but other times it pays to slow down into tortoise mode, right? So really if you dig a little deeper into slow, it's a mindset, it's a mentality. It's quality over quantity, it's being present and in the moment, it's doing one thing at a time.

Carl (02:02):

Ultimately, slow with a capital S is about doing everything not as fast as possible, but as well as possible, which let's face it, it's a very simple idea. It's core, but it's also at the same time, an immensely powerful one because it has the capacity to revolutionize in a good way, everything you do. So that's why in every field of human endeavor now, you will find a slow movement, people coming to the party saying, how can I do this thing better and enjoy it more by slowing down to the right speed? So you mentioned in the intro there are slow travel, slow parenting, there are slow food, slow management, slow art, slow fashion, slow medicine, you name it. People can do it better by finding the right pace. And very often that means these days in our fast forward world, it means taking it down at notch or two and slowing down to find that correct tempo.

Debra (02:52):

Now, you've been an advocate for this for a time, right? I believe your TED Talk on the slow movement was 2005?

Carl (03:03):

Yeah, my first book, the book in Praise of Slow or in Praise of Slowness in the US is 2004. So we're actually a couple of weeks away from the 20th anniversary. So I've been on this track for some time.

Debra (03:14):

Congratulations. And tell us, what have you seen over the course of since 2004 when you started talking about this?

Carl (03:24):

Well, it's a mixed bag. On one side, the keynote of modern society remains acceleration, and in some ways we have got faster. So when I first floated the idea of a slow movement back in 2004, we didn't even have the iPhone then. We didn't have social media. And since then we've added artificial intelligence. I mean, there's been a real cranking up of pace and speed in many ways. But the good news is that in parallel, the countercurrent for slow has also grown fast as it happens. So when I first began talking about this idea, could we talk about slow as a creed, a philosophy that could reshape everything we do? You looked around the world at that point there was slow foods, slow cities, there wasn't much more. Now, like I said a moment ago, they were slow. Everything, and people at all stages of life are waking up to the folly of doing everything faster.

Carl (04:21):

So yes, on one hand the hallmark of modern society remains speed, but the countercurrent is stronger and stronger all the time. And I think actually the pandemic gave a real boost to the slow movement because what was the pandemic for many of us, if not a global workshop in slowness, right? It basically just stopped the world. And I didn't like, it was funny actually, when the pandemic hit, so many people wrote to me and said, you must be so happy, right? Everybody's been forced to slow down. I was like, no, I'm not happy at all. The pandemic is a total nightmare for all of us in so many ways, but like many nightmares, I think it brought a little silver lining, and it was the fact that we got a taste. Many of us got a taste of what it would be like to live without FOMO, to live without overstuffed schedules, to live with more time for baking, for playing with our children, for going for a walk with our partner, for doing all the slow stuff that gives life texture, meaning color, transcendence.

Carl (05:20):

And so that's why you see now the pandemic, well hopefully is receding into the past. People are coming out of that moment, that extraordinary moment in human history and making deep tectonic changes in their lives. So they're coming out and saying, you know what? I am leaving that bad relationship, or I'm changing careers, or I'm moving from the city to the country, the country to the city, or I'm learning a new, I'm making a big change. Because they had time finally, for the first time ever to slow down, pause, reflect, and grapple with big questions like, who am I? What's my purpose here? Am I living the right life for me? Because when you get stuck and fast forward, very often you find yourself living in autopilot. You're just following someone else's script. And for many people, the pandemic was a wake up call. It was a moment to say, okay, I'm slowing down here. I'm looking at the terrain. I'm joining the dots. I'm contemplating the horizon of the big picture. And I realized that I was just racing through my life instead of living it. So I've seen since the pandemic hit a real ratchet up of the slow movement.

Debra (06:18):

Well, that totally makes sense because it's hard to do this. Just wake up one morning and go, okay, I'm going to be slow today. It really is going to take maybe a job loss or losing a partner or loved one or an illness scare, right? Something's going to really shake your world.

Carl (06:36):

Absolutely. And for me, my wake up call came all those years ago when I started reading bedtime stories to my son. And honestly, back in those days, I just couldn't slow down. So I'd go into his bedroom at the end of the day, sit on his bed with one foot on the floor and speed read Snow White. So they're skipping paragraphs lines. I became an expert of what I called multiple page turn technique, which was you'd try to see three more pages, but it never works, right? I mean, our kids know these stories inside out. So my son would always catch me. He'd say, daddy, why Snow White? Why are there only three dwarves in the story that I knew what happened to Grumpy? And I realized that this was just almost an obscene approach to story reading. But I couldn't stop. I was so fast.

Carl (07:22):

I had to get through it as fast as possible. I couldn't. And then my wake up call came when I caught myself flirting with a book I heard about called The One Minute Bedtime Story. I remember that. I was, hallelujah, man, Amazon Drone delivery. I need that book right now. But then it was the light bulb over the head, second thought, and I just thought, no, what? No, this can't be true. Am I really prepared to fob off my son with a soundbite instead of a story at the end? And that was the moment of genuine searing epiphany. It was like an out-of-body experience. I suddenly saw myself there in sharp Relief, and what I saw was, oh, it was ugly, it was unedifying, it was just wrong. And I thought, nah, I cannot carry on at this pace because something has to give. Something is already giving. And that for me was hitting rock bottom, and that was my wake up call.

Debra (08:18):

You talk a lot about parenting, and I want to talk about grandparenting too, because our kids are really overscheduled. They feel our stress and their own stress in their lives. And you have a terrific book that is out in the UK and Europe and other parts of the world and will be available in the US next May, and it's called Slow Adventures, 40 Real Life Journeys by Boat, bike, foot and Train. And this feels like a super cool opportunity to do what you're just talking about here. It makes you, the transportation makes you slow down. If you're sitting in a train, you're going to have a conversation with your little human instead of sort of, we got to be here. We got to be there. What prompted you to write that book?

Carl (09:10):

Well, I know from my own personal experience that travel has often been, especially with my own family growing up as a child and now my family with my own children, that the moments I found it easiest and maybe even some ways most rewarding to slow down were when we traveled. So when we would go somewhere as a family, whether it would be to another city or to the countries, wherever we went, there was something about the pace and the rhythm and the tempo that just shifted. We just sort of shifted into a lower gear. And so I always had on my radar the idea to write something about, specifically about slow travel. If you look at the broader slow movement, the slow travel movement is one of the most vigorous strands of that movement, and it's one that I find personally the most appealing. And then along came the pandemic, which I travel for work all the time, and I love doing that.

Carl (10:01):

But that was one thing that went out the window. Suddenly I couldn't travel anywhere, and I felt the loss of that. So those two things collided my desire to write something about slow travel families and children with my own itch to get back out of my home and into the world again. And I thought, well, the best way to do that would be through a children's book. I'd never written one before. I've read obviously many of them, some of 'em I sped read, but then I got better and started reading them properly. I ditched the multiple page turn technique, and I don't recommend that to any parent. I hate to do add here. And so I thought, well, I'll write a children's book. And it was such a joy as well, because it meant that every day when I couldn't leave my home, I could travel the world in my imagination, reading, revisiting my own journals, watching other people's video blogs.

Carl (10:52):

And so just getting a sense of what was going on before rewriting about it and revisiting places. So it's like I could travel the world on a magic carpet of words, and it was such a joy to write, and it's a thrill to have it out in the world now and hear from parents and families all over the world. And the way they often talk about it, they pull the book out and they say, now where are we going to go tonight? And will we go by bike or will we go on foot? Or maybe tonight's a boat night or it's a train and are we going to go to South America or maybe Asia and stuff. And I just feel like it opens up the world, and when you open up the world, you open up people's hearts and their minds and their imagination, and that's the greatest gift we can give to our children, isn't it?

Debra (11:34):

Okay. Take us on an adventure. Where could we go? What's your favorite?

Carl (11:40):

Oh gosh. Like the old, well, who's your favorite child question, isn't it? One of my favorite ones, and I've redone it recently, is walking the Appian Way outside Rome, the ancient walkway that goes back 2000 years, that goes out of Rome all the way to the coast. I think it goes to NDIA on the coast, and it's still paved with the ancient Roman paving stones, and it's lined by old mausoleums and arenas where gladiators once fought in palaces and so on. And it's just, I mean, talk about a trip down memory lane. You wouldn't want to rush that, and you just walk, you soak up the landscape. And I went most recently with my wife who'd never been on the Appian way before, and it was a joy, and I've not done that one with my children. My children now are grown. They're adults themselves.

Carl (12:39):

They can do the Appian Way on their own. But it did make me think, wouldn't it be nice to do an Appian way walk with a family even now? But I would've loved to have done that with my children when they were smaller because they loved Romans like so many kids. I remember loving Romans, Roman Empire and all that stuff, whether it's asterisk or stuff that's a bit more historically accurate, but to be able to go and walk along Appian way and imagine yourself into the following, in the footsteps of sandal clad Roman centurions or traitors coming to Rome to hawk their wares. And so it just makes the heart sing.

Debra (13:19):

I love that. And as I'm thinking of you and maybe your children when they were tinier, if you did that traveling with children or grandchildren, it makes you be slow because they have their tiny little legs and their intense curiosity, and you find that you have a completely different adventure now you're looking at the cats that are there instead of going and checking out all the history, there's something lovely about children that makes us slow down if we pay attention to it, right?

Carl (13:50):

Utterly, utterly. And this is one of the greatest gifts that children offer us is slowness. Because let's face it, no child is born in a hurry. That just doesn't happen. They don't even understand how time works. You say to a three-year-old, you have four minutes and they'll look at you like you've just stepped in for another dimension. It's just meaningless to them, right? Children are artists of the moment, they're masters of now, and we've all been that in that moment, walking down the street with your seven-year-old, and she spots a lady bug and a Rose Bush, and she could stop there for 20 minutes, right? She'd give the ladybug a name, she'll weave a narrative of Icelandic saga proportions. If the ladybug flips off to another bush, she'll go chasing after it, doing cartwheels, getting exercise. And we actually know that in that moment of unhurried, tactile play and exploration in the world, your daughter's brain in that moment is on fire.

Carl (14:44):

She's building her brain and wastes a thousand hours of tutoring and a million educational DVDs are never going to touch. The trouble is that we are also pumped up and professionalized as parents that we see that ladybug moment and think that kind of looks like a waste of time. You pull her away from the ladybug and say, hurry up, we're late for ballet. And there was something about the magic of the ladybug moment that children are so good at, right? And if we would just pause, take a deep breath and slow down to their rhythm as parents or grandparents, we could tap into that magic and that majesty that children are so all children are so good at, right? And I think travel is a really good time to do that because as you say, they've got the little legs. They don't have the energy to keep going all day long, full tilt.

Carl (15:28):

If we kind of just rather than trying to drive them faster, if we went down a notch or a gear or two to their rhythm, then everything opens up. And when you slow down when you're traveling, any journey can become a bomb for the soul and a banquet for the senses. You can do that walking the Appian way, but you can get the same payoff, the same delightful kaleidoscopic experience of the world in all its richness, just walking to the end of your street or walking to the playground in your park. It's about turning on all five senses and having them fully illuminated and giving them the time and attention they deserve. And that's there for everyone. It doesn't cost anything. Sure, you can spend a lot of money and go to Rome. You can slow travel in your backyard, especially if you've got a child to take you along as a guide.

Debra (16:21):

It's true. I remember my parents are going to laugh, but one of the nicest travel moments was our car broke down and we were staying at a cabin in the desert, and so we had to stay for a few more days while the car got fixed. And I'm sure the grownups were just beside themselves trying to figure out the car getting fixed. But I had the best time because there was nothing to do. It was so fun.

Carl (16:46):

Oh, that's so telling, isn't it? That the fact that there was nothing to do, no. FOMO is such a relief and such a joy. That's such an indictment of the way we live our lives now, isn't it? And you heard that as well. Whenever there's a big power cut in a city, people look back fondly. I remember I live in London here in England, and a few years back, it actually snowed. I mean really properly snowed and London's totally not set up for it. So the city just round to a halt, no planes, no nothing, three days of, and people still talk about it 12 years later they were, you remember that snowstorm? And we all stayed home and we walked up to the park and we threw snow. Their faces light up. And you think that didn't cost anyone anything. It was just that people slowed down. They only slowed down. But why wait for that? Why not just do it ourselves? It's right there for everybody. It's true for the taking.

Debra (17:45):

It's true. And the reason I invited you, and I'm so glad that we're talking today, is your book really sparked something in me. I'm going to be a grandparent next year. And I hadn't really thought hard about what that meant, but I realized there is a profound opportunity as a grandparent to give the gift of slow. And I think of the relationship with my grandparents, and the thing I remember most about them and that I love deeply, is that they were the people who would just get on the ground and color with me or chalk, and they didn't have to worry about work or that they had something else to do. They would just hang out with me and go do, I don't know. It was just magical.

Carl (18:35):

It is. It's a kind of superpower. And interestingly, I mean, my most recent workup and looking a lot at aging and how aging affects us and how we feel about aging and how we can age better, and one thing they found when they do studies on people moving through the long arc of life is that we tend generally to get better at being in the moment. We get better in that second half of our lives at shutting out the sound and fury of this swirling around us in the modern world and just being there, right, being present, just what you've described there, the grandparent getting down in their hands and knees and playing Lego for an hour and not getting bored. I've seen that in my own life. I don't have grandchildren yet. I hope to. Not too soon. I'm quite enjoying the empty nest stage at the moment, but hopefully there's some grandchildren in my near-ish future. I remember with my own father. My own father was quite fast and busy and always working and so on. And then when he became a grandparent, he just seemed like it was a total 180 degree transformation. My son particularly was really given to delivering very long stories that I thought, oh, this is great. A lot, great creativity. But sometimes I'd be thinking, oh man, how much longer is this going? Whereas my father would sit there in the front room in the living room, he'd be there for an hour and a half just listening to all it, and there's no way my father would've done that as a father, but as a grandfather, he brought that to the party, and I thought that's a real testament to what grandparents can do. And there's a funny, I sort of feel like it's like an arc where grandparents and grandchildren kind of meet around in a circle. If you go all the way around the circle, I still feel like there's something, there's a natural complicity between grandparents and grandchildren that is eternal and glorious.

Debra (20:27):

Oh, complicity. That is the word. It is. I also love how you were surprised by your father's behavior. I mean, it really affects not just the direct relationship that kind of infused your relationship as well.

Carl (20:46):

Yeah, it did actually, because that was all happening around the time that I was beginning to think, oh no, I'm just too fast, but what do I do? I am fast naturally. How do I stop? And then certainly seeing my own father adopting that grandfatherly slowness shook me in a good way. It made me think, oh, there are different ways of being in the world and people can change. So yeah, that was part of my own journey away from road runner Dom and Speedo. Holism you like.

Debra (21:20):

What has surprised you about your journey?

Carl (21:27):

I think the thing that surprised me most, and this I hope will be heartening for anyone listening who's worried about slowing down, is that my biggest fear was that I would guess it's FOMO. I thought if I slow down, a big part of slowing down is just by did to the math, right? You only have so many minutes a day that I was going to have to drop things and let them go, and I was going to miss those because I'm somebody who's got a real hugger for life, for taking a big bite out of the world and just enjoying what I'm doing, where I am, the people I'm with, and the prospect of, yes, okay, I knew I was going to gain a lot by slowing down and the things that I would do, I would really enjoy them more. I'd have more energy.

Carl (22:06):

I wouldn't be burned out from so many, such a long laundry list of upside. I kept thinking, oh no, but I'm going to have to swallow a lot of pain here because I'm, I'm giving up X, Y, and Z in order to. But I never felt that. It was amazing to me that right away, for me, one concrete example here, I love sports. I play a lot of sports and always have done. And I realized that I couldn't carry on playing all the sports I was playing. So I let tennis go, and I've loved tennis, but tennis takes a long time. It's not like squash say or something where you can play it in 50 minutes. Tennis is a good, and I thought, I'm really going to miss tennis. I never once missed it. I know I'll go back to it later on. I've actually thought about starting this next year, next summer.

Carl (22:54):

Now I've got more time as an empty nester to return to it. But it's funny. I thought, oh, I'm going to be in distress here. Having given stuff up, I wasn't. Why? Because at some point you realize that having it all is just a recipe for hurrying it all. And you're much better off doing a triage and just sitting back, taking the time and saying, what really lights me up here? What can I let go of? And once you let the stuff go, it's remarkably easy. The question was, what surprised me was the ease with which I let stuff go, and it didn't hurt. It caught me.

Debra (23:30):

Well, then maybe you've answered my question. What happens when you get overwhelmed? When you get unfocused, what do you do to get yourself on the right track?

Carl (23:54):

I've got a few little, I guess they're kind of fast tips for slow quick hacks, right?

Debra (24:01):

I see what you did there…

Carl (24:02)

The first one I do is this is something that's really straightforward: breathing. Because once you get into that kind of headless chicken, oh no, everything's moving, you're breathing very shallowly, and that becomes a self-fulfilling. You're in a loop then. So just to pause and take a few deep breaths, you're changing the physiological temperature of your body. You're recalibrating. You're finding a slower place to stand. And so just take a few deep breaths. If you're finding yourself getting whooped up into the kind of crazy hurly burly that can just infect all of us, that virus of hurry is coursing through people all around us. We can catch it. So breath, that's number one. Number two is, and this goes to a lot of very interesting research they've done showing that being in nature is also very calming, soothing and physically tranquil.

Carl (24:57):

It slows us down. So just spend time in nature. I don't mean you don't have to go do a nine hour hike in the Rockies. You can just walk across the street or go to the park or go into your back garden or even sit near a plant if that's all you've got. Just something about being near green spaces does make a difference. It does slow us down. People call it forest bathing or ecotherapy or green paws, whatever it is. But just try and build something of that into your day. Or if you're really feeling kind of uptight and wound too tightly, just get yourself into some green space for a little bit. So breathing green space. And then I think it also helps to have to hand an easy, I think if it's a kind of slow ritual that you can carry with you everywhere.

Carl (25:42):

So that could be, for some people it's craft. So it might be knitting, it could be reading. You have a little book, you read poetry or reading a novel, no screen, like a real book with pages and stuff. For me, often it's, and I'm really bad at this, is drawing or sketching, but I have a little sketchbook that I stop and look at things. This is something we never do nowadays, is stop and stare and really stare at something and then look again and look and then render the object or the person or whatever it is, in lines on a page. And that has an incredibly soothing effect on anyone and definitely on me. I mean, I feel I just get right into deep work, full focus, slow mode through drawing. And that could just be simply piece of paper and a pencil, right? Again, no cost. You can carry it around in your bag or your back pocket. It's always there. So those are three things. One little slow ritual, bit of green time, some breathing. Those are three things we can all carry around with us as ways to reconnect with our inner tortoise.

Debra (26:44):

Staring, I don't think we've talked enough about staring. That's a big idea.

Carl (26:52):

It is, isn't it? Because we don't really look at things these days. We glance, right, we scroll, we don't read, we scroll, we don't look, we glance, this is the fast forward culture that we're in. We're just skimming the surface of things. And there's so much to be gained from stopping and staring for actually looking, really looking at something. I've been doing some work with a new organization. It started in Spain called Empo. So time of art or art time. It's the slow art movement basically, is another way of thinking of it. And it's all about encouraging people to use art as a way to reconnect with themselves and the world and other people. But through slowness. Because if you look at studies at how much time people spend looking at the average work of art in a museum or a gallery, it's about 11 seconds, which isn't that much time if you're standing in front of a Picasso or a Rembrandt.

Carl (27:50):

And yet that's sort of the world we live in. But there's so much to be earned and gained by taking time to look, because not only do you come to understand and appreciate the thing you're looking at more, but you come to understand and appreciate yourself more. It becomes a self-fulfilling loop. There's something about the process of stopping, pausing, contemplating, trying to make sense of looking away, looking back, that it's like it generates and provokes and stimulates an internal monologue, which is also very important as well for finding out and pinpointing where we stand in the world, what's going wrong with our lives, what we can do next, and so on. So there's just so much to be gained from looking deeply. Looking slowly.

Debra (28:38):

Yeah, looking slowly. That makes sense. And you're reminding me, a few weeks ago I went up to, I live in Los Angeles, and the Getty has this terrific special exhibit about William Blake from the Tate Gallery. And so it's beautiful and it's complete, but William Blake will not let you just glance through it because it's tiny. And he has tiny, tiny text. And so you are forced. You just can't run through and go, oh, okay, saw that. You have to get there with the magnifying glass and you're going to be there for a time. And what you described was exactly the feeling. Plus there was this wonderful community of staring together as we were trying to figure out what was going on inside these incredibly intricate illustrations. And everyone had this sort of shared awe together as we were walking through. It was really remarkable.

Carl (29:42):

That's beautiful. And I love the word awe that you used there, because I think that is something else that slowness gives us access to is awe, awe and wonder. Those things don't happen if you're juggling five things at the same time with your eye on your phone. They just don't. They only happen when you show up fully and give yourself completely to the moment. And ideally, I think in many cases you do that with other people. There's a wonderful old quote or refrain saying that goes, if you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together. And I think that's another reminder of what Slow is all about. It's people often first encounter the slow movement and think, okay, I'm going to slow down here. I'm going to get in touch with my inner tortoise. I'm going to do things at the Tempo Juto, the correct speed, and it's going to make me more productive, more creative, more happy, more healthy, all that good stuff.

Carl (30:38):

But that's not enough. You've got to take slow the next step, because really slow is about reconnecting us not only with ourselves, but with other people. And we'll only ever really genuinely slow down if we all do it together. Create a world where the pressure is not on to road runner your way through every moment, where only a few people can only sometimes slow down. No, that's just a bandaid on a deep whoop. I'm talking about something much more seismic here in the long run. And I think that we get there by doing it together. And that's one of the main benefits I think of slow, is it's deeper bonds and connection with other people. Because let's face it, you cannot accelerate human relations. You just can't. These things have a natural arc. You can't make someone fall in love with you faster because you want to get married in June. Yes. You can't forge a deep friendship because you need someone to backpack around Asia with you next week. You can't download team Spirit from Amazon. These things take time. And not just time, they take presence that people need to show up with full attention and listen and to look at the world in the way you described there, looking at Blake together and share their reactions. And that's how we create a society worthy of the name. That's how we come together to build a world that works for everyone.

Debra (32:04):

Amen. Alright, we have, I'm ready. Okay. This is going to be my day to day. I really appreciate the time that you took to walk us through Slow to wander through Slow. And I'm going to make sure that everyone has all of the links on our site, on our notes. And you can already go folks to Target and other bookstores. And you can pre-order Slow Adventures. It'll be out May of 20, 24, or if you're traveling to UK and other parts of the world, it's already out there. And what is the title in the UK?

Carl (32:43):

The title is, it's The Journey, not The Destination. It's exactly the same book, but just a different title.

Debra (32:51):

Cool. And we can use that and we can use that as a guide and we can check things off as we either do them or imagine them together.

Carl (33:00):

There you go. I know. It's so sweet when families write and say, well, we're using this as a sort of family planning trip guide, right? So next year we'll do this and maybe we'll do that and stuff. So yeah, it's been very, very lovely, that whole experience.

Debra (33:15):

Well, thank you. Thank you so much.

Carl (33:17):

Thank you. It's been a pleasure chatting.

Debra (33:19):

Thanks for listening to The Dareful Project. Please follow, like and leave a review. It really helps. We're on all your favorite platforms, Spotify, apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, iHeartRadio, audible. Tune in Amazon Music, Stitcher, SoundCloud, and YouTube. And to connect, you can email me at [email protected]. That's Debra, D-E-B-R-A at Dareful one. That's with the number one.com. Thanks for listening.

Jess Grippo is a force of nature: author, a TEDx speaker and founder of Dance Again, a New York City dance studio that offers a welcoming space for rusty dancers and newbies alike. One of her most popular offerings is Rusty Ballet where, she says, "creaky joints and cranky people are welcome." We talk about how she came up with the idea of Rusty Ballet, why rekindling creativity saves us and the one thing we can all do now to start (or start again) dancing.

Here's how you find Jess Grippo:

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Transcript:

Debra Hotaling (00:04):

Hello and welcome to the Dareful Project. I'm Debra Hotaling. Jess Grippo is a lot of things. She's an entrepreneur, a TEDx speaker, a dancer and founder of Dance Again, a New York City and online dance space that offers dance classes for rusty dancers and newbies. In fact, she offers classes called Rusty Ballet, where "creaky joints and cranky people are welcome." Jess, welcome!

Jess Grippo (00:38):

Thank you so much, Debra. Thanks for having me on.

Debra (00:41):

So ground us on Dance Again. Where did that start?

Jess (00:47):

Sure. Well, it started with my own personal journey back into dance after having quit when I was about 19 years old. I was very serious about ballet when I was younger, but decided to go to regular college and study and do other things through my twenties. And I found myself in my late twenties with that inner dancer calling to me being like, don't forget about me. But yet I personally was way too intimidated to just step foot into a random dance class. I lived in New York City. A lot of the classes, even if they're labeled as a beginner class, they just seem fast and advanced and just, I was not in practice at the time. And so for me at the time, I just was like, well, I'm going to figure out my own way to do this. And it started out with dancing alone in my room a lot and kind of making quirky dance videos. This was way before TikTok existed, and I just started to find my own expression and my own movement through dance. And as time went on, I was like, all right, well, I think I've nailed the alone part of dancing, so let me see if other people want to join.

Jess (02:02):

And I started to kind of put word out there, and that was the origins of Dance Again. And the intention was that while it's really easy to find at least New York, LA, the major cities, you can probably find a professional-ish adult dance class in other places. Maybe you can't even find that. You can probably find a Zumba class or something, dance cardio based. But it seems like the cardio workout focused dance classes are the more accessible things. But I was really, I didn't want to just go in and work out and sweat. I wanted to feel like a dancer again. I wanted to learn choreography and express myself and all those things. And so that was really the intention of filling in that gap of let's create a class and a studio eventually that was that middle ground. That was something where could feel like a dancer again, have a class that wasn't so technical or fast paced that they felt like, ah, I don't know how to keep up, but also not just a cardio class. And that was the birth of Dance Again. And here we are many years later.

Debra (03:21):

Love that so much. You were speaking to me because I took dance, like parks and rec dance when I was little and just loved love, loved it. And then in college I took ballet and jazz, and I loved it. Super passionate, but not great. I was a grownup person, but it was still, you were learning choreography, you were learning the correct technique. And so one year my wonderful husband gave me ballet slippers. I'm like, I'm going to go back and take a ballet class. So I called this local ballet studio, and they're like, oh yes, did you ever take classes? You should come. Okay, Jess. I got there and everyone was in the biz and just keeping in shape before their next dance video. I was so out of everybody's league that I just was like that five-year-old kid just twirling around in the corner when everybody else was doing stuff. It was so awful that it was actually really fun and hilarious. But I wish I would've known you then.

Jess (04:30):

Yeah, I wish you did too. And so wait, did you ever go back or did you take that class and you were like, I don't know.

Debra (04:36):

No, that was it. That was it. So now I sort of satisfy myself with taking Zuma classes at the gym and stuff like that. So it feels like there's a big need. So tell me who shows up for your classes?

Jess (04:52):

We have a range of people I put on the website for rusty dancers and newbies who are maybe always had the dream to dance or lightly dance in the past, but are wanting to really start as an adult. And rusty dancers, meaning those who did dance actively, not necessarily professionally, but just took classes all through high school or maybe even into college. But then when adulting gets the best of us and we have a lot of other responsibilities and we kind of phase that part of our lives out. Yeah, and I mean it's a pretty wide age range. My oldest student is 72 years old. I think the youngest probably in their twenties. I think there's still even people in their twenties who are freshly out of college but are still missing it, are still craving that space that they can belong in a dance environment and not feel like an outsider.

Debra (05:57):

I want to talk about, you talk about your Aunt Maryanne and what you learned from her about creativity, which comes into what we're talking about here of even if you have an older body or you've been away from an art that it can always welcome you back. Can you talk a little bit more about creativity and what you learned from her?

Jess (06:23):

Yeah. Well, my great aunt Marianne, she was incredible. And she was a visual artist, a painter, which she only started in her forties in her life. The big takeaway that I learned from her was self-preservation. Life is tough. Let's face it. Art can be the thing that grounds you, that saves you, that keeps you connected to something rather than getting swept up and all the things that can happen. And she was an influence on me when I was a teenager, I started to get introduced to her and she was my grandfather's sister and my grandfather was an incredible man as well. He was, after he retired, he worked for Nabisco for a long time in their New Jersey Patterson factory.

Jess (07:34):

And he decided to take up a hobby of taking railroad spikes and turning them into these statues. And the artistic spark was there in our family, but it would come out later. And my aunt was, at this point, she was actively painting and making art. And I met her at a couple of times when she came down to New Jersey from Vermont, and we became pen pals throughout my high school experience and would write each other. And I still have these letters from her that were just as someone young who was pursuing a career in dance at the time. And it was really cool to hear from someone who was like, yeah, wow, your dance is your art and that's valid and that's something that you should and can pursue. Whereas I don't think at least I didn't have a lot of that influence, even though my grandfather, like I said, was making things and doing his thing there. I don't think many people are overtly become an artist, go to college and make a lot of money doing something. So, so her influence was pretty profound on me. And as I got older, me and my mom, my mom's cousin and her daughter, we would take these trips up to Vermont to visit her, and it always just left this mark on my soul and inspired me to keep following whatever weird and wonderful path that I was on.

Debra (09:09):

But your story also brings up how we can have an effect on someone and not even realize it. Her living that way, continuing to be curious about her art that I can tell really affected the way that you now live your life. And I wonder, I'm sure she did it for her own love and because she loved you, but also art can extend beyond our immediate perimeters, right?

Jess (09:36):

Yes, exactly. And I think even talking about self-preservation, and I think there's a stigma around artists in general that it is a selfish, you have to be selfish, you need to dedicate all this time to the art. And it's like while yes, that can be true, it's like you said, the impact that your self-expression is making on other people or the world, that can be huge and it can actually really help other people.

Debra (10:07):

So those of us who sort of dance in the kitchen or we're in the car, going back to a dance class can still be super intimidating. You got to have the right look the right way, at least you feel like you do, and you got to walk in, you got to have a little attitude, and it could be scary. How can someone get started?

Jess (10:35):

Well, what I recommend is what I did way back in the day, which is start alone in your room. Don't put that pressure on yourself right away, especially if you're not familiar yet with what kind of environment you're stepping into. Because with your experience, Debra, you step into the class and you're like, oh my God, I feel like such an outsider here. And then you didn't go back. It's like, that's what we want to avoid. It's like scarring ourselves, but sometimes we can't help it. But I would say depending on your comfort level, and that's why at Dance Again, we offer Dance Alone Together. It's a series that you can do at home where every day there's a different theme. The themes are lined up with my book, and it takes you on a journey of both and getting back in your body and moving.

Jess (11:35):

You can also take classes on Zoom with us, you can access the class library. It's nice to have that option and to be like, okay, yeah, let me get comfortable. Let me start to really feel out what my body is right now, how these movements are fitting in, and what style might I like and what do I want to try and how do I feel as a dancer Now to have time to explore that and then step into a classroom, I think you can feel a lot more confident and it can make it easier. And of course, having a buddy with you is always a good thing if you can rally someone else to join you to take that dance class.

Debra (12:33):

Is there stuff that you need to do if you have an older body and you're coming back just in preparation for that movement?

Jess (12:41):

Yeah, that's a great question. I think you strengthening having practices, and I'm not an expert. I actually brought in other experts on injury prevention who have taught classes with us at dance. Again, in particular Wendy Reinert and Dana De Francesco, and working in a way where you're feeling comfortable. With us, you're not doing triple pirouettes and high kicks and splits on the floor. There's no extra fancy technical moves on purpose because, and all of our teachers know that we're making everything adaptable. If you can't stretch down this far, you're going to do this instead. There's always modifications. Every dancer should be responsible for themselves and their own body. And so things like Pilates strength training are helpful. I had a pretty intense hip injury last year and went to physical therapy and worked with Wendy and did all this stuff to try to rehabilitate myself.

Jess (14:02):

And what I learned was like, okay, before I take a ballet class, which requires turn out in your feet, that's going to affect my hip. So I need to actually do some parallel squats and leg lifts before I take or teach ballet. And it actually really helps me because it repositions my hip, it activates other muscles. So I learned that for myself, unfortunately, based on an injury. But I think that taking it easy is always good. And then in doubt, if you're feeling any aches and pains to consult with someone or to take our injury prevention class and to just learn some techniques that are going to help you ease into it and warm up before class, what has

Debra (14:47):

What's been the reception of Rusty Ballet?

Jess (15:00):

I would love to expand to LA for sure. I'm working on ways to do that. Our classes are filling up. Whatever we're doing seems to be working. I started a teacher training. So the idea is that I am working on people who feel called to this mission and would love to not only dance again, but teach Dance Again and create these kinds of spaces. You can work with me in a training and offer your own classes, similar to how Zumba works. So part of what I do too, outside of teaching and running the studio is guiding other people into their own teaching and then also the business and creative side of how to get that up and running in different places.

Debra (15:55):

That is super, super cool. You talked about your great aunt Maryanne, and I take from you that your family is really important to you. You have another video that you shared in your TEDx about your dad. Can you talk with us about that video?

Jess (16:30):

Yeah, sure. At the time, my dad suffered a stroke at a very young age. He was 55. It caused him to be disabled, physically, mentally, and there was a time where he was just in and out of nursing homes. He broke his hip twice. It was a very intense, condensed time of a lot of just hospital nursing homes, that kind of thing. I'm the only child. I was there a lot helping my mom out with my dad. And we were at this nursing home and it was a rough patch where something emotionally was going on where he was like, get me out. He was screaming, he wanted to get out of this nursing home. He was just not having it. And I was the only one there with him. And I was like, all right, let's go for a walk.

Jess (17:21):

And he was in the wheelchair and I was just wheeling around this nursing home trying to find something to do, and we found an art room first and did a little bit of art. And then I found this, the big dining room had a CD player, and I was like, let's play a song here, dad, take my camera. And I was like, I'm going to make a dance video. That was back when I was pretty actively making dance videos wherever I could. They had a Swan Lake cd, we put it in. Swan Lake was the first dance that I did when I was 11 years old at my studio in New Jersey. It was very sentimental.

Jess (17:59):

So yeah, part of what I show in the video is the video that we made together with him taking my phone and filming the dance that I was doing with his, I love that video, his commentary of like, you go girl. And he became a director, a videographer. He was involved in the process in the ways that he could and it shifted his mood and it made the whole evening so much easier.

Debra (18:40):

No, it is an amazing moment in so many ways that it's first of all, visually raw. It's clearly in a nursing home you can see that it's the dining room and you're dancing around the empty tables. But what I love and what's lovely and heartbreaking is your dad talking behind the camera because it's like he finds his voice watching you and having that moment of creating this video with you. And it is absolutely extraordinary. And you talk about the power of art, what that meant for him to make something again, to have some control, to be able to create.

Jess (19:22):

Yeah. Yeah. It's huge. Something so small can be so profound,

Debra (19:30):

And I think that that's probably what you find every day in small ways with your own studio.

Jess (19:36):

Yeah, absolutely. I think there's like every day when you're, that's the thing too with bigger dance classes is you don't even know who is stepping into your class and what they're going through in their life. But you can feel the energy shift and you can feel the joy that comes through in the expression and all that. And there's this one story that stands out to me. I had a student, this was many years ago, and she was part of this longer program I did at the time, and she didn't really talk much in class. She kind of kept to herself, but she was there every week and seemed to enjoy it. And when I did the feedback forms at the end, one of the things she wrote was that she was like, my husband's been very ill. It's been really hard as a caretaker being so young. She was probably in her early thirties and she was like, this dance class has been so healing to me, just having a space to come and move my body. And I would've never known. I really would've never known. But yeah, I think that's the power of dance and of creating, of expressing, of being able to do that wherever you are.

Debra (21:04):

And it's easy to forget about our bodies. Maybe not you because you're a dancer, but if you've got your job that you go do every day and you got the brain going and doing all that stuff, and it's easy to forget that you need to be moving and you can feel that way too.

Jess (21:21):

Yeah, it's easy to forget, even as a trained dancer, I think sometimes even more so because with dance training comes this very disciplined way of controlling what your body's doing. So it's like, yes, there's more of a desire to move, but there's also more of an ability to tame my body in a way. All those ballet training years where it's almost like with that kind of dance when I was so serious and so technical, I was a robot at the time, being so in my head, it's easy to carry that over and get stuck in my head too. So I have to constantly remind myself and create spaces and structures where I'm regularly getting in my body in different ways.

Debra (22:18):

So what is the one step that we could take on today? And I mean lazy, tiny, small step that wouldn't feel like turning our life upside down where we could start nudging ourselves into dance or to a creative adventure.

Jess (22:39):

Okay, so I have this, I don't know what to call it, a technique or a step or a thing. You could do a thingy. I got a thingy, I call it the Dance Shuffle or the Dance Shuffle solution. And all you do is you take whatever music source you have, don't overthink it, iTunes, Spotify, whatever. Open up your full library. You're going to hit shuffle and you're going to commit to dancing to whatever song comes on first. Maybe if you have more time, the first three songs, that'll be maybe 10 minutes. But if it's the smallest step you could take, and it's one song, let the song come on and be surprised by what song it is. And maybe there's even something in the lyrics that speaks to you, but give yourself that song to commit to. I'm going to move my body to the song. Don't even have to call it dancing, but see what it evokes in you. And it can start to open up your body and your movement, but also that mystery of like, oh, what song is it going to be? Right? Which I think the mystery and the magic is so much a part of the creative process too.

Debra (23:47):

I love that. As you were saying that, I was thinking, we don't get enough surprise in our life. Not good surprise, not surprise, surprise. But that's what you're describing: I have no idea what's going to happen next, but I'm in.

Jess (24:00):

Yeah.

Debra (24:02):

So if we're in the New York area, we will find you because you have your studio and we will make sure that all of the links are there and folks can sign up for classes, not just ballet either, right? You have other kinds of classes?

Jess (24:19):

Yes, we have other classes. We have have an amazing hip hop teacher doing some hip hop. We have contemporary-ish, I call it contemporary-ish because contemporary is very, I don't know, open to interpret interpretation as is modern, but we do our own flair of a learning choreography in that style. More styles might be added, but those are the three right now that we focus on.

Debra (24:48):

And if we're not in the New York area, you have online classes. Describe what we might see there.

Jess (24:54):

So as of now, we we're streaming most if not all of our live classes, so you can sign up on Zoom and take class with us live. And then we also have the Dance Again digital studio, which you can join. And we have an archive of class recordings, so you can, on your own time, take any class that's in there. And not only classes, there's things like injury prevention, like I mentioned. There's more creativity focused courses that guide you on more of a getting in touch with your own creative self, not just dance moves. And there's the 13 Day Dance Alone together series that you can just kind of go through daily on your own time.

Debra (25:48):

I love this. And you have a book, right?

Jess (25:51):

I do.

Debra (25:54):

What's that about?

Jess (25:56):

It's called Dance With this Book, and the subtitle is Start a Revolution with Your Body Alone in Your Room. And really it tracks some personal stories just for inspiration around how I got back into it, starting alone in my room, but it turns it back to you. The reader with every chapter ends with a prompt to get you moving in your own way. And again, you can bring that to life with that 13 day digital series as well. That's all kind of in theme with the book. So yeah, get us moving.

Debra (26:35):

That is a lot. And okay, we're ready to do this. I think so everybody, we're going to have links for all of her stuff. Please take one of her classes and report back. It sounds amazing and I want to hear about everything that goes on. And Jess best wishes, please expand. I'm ready for you out here.

Jess (26:56):

Okay, definitely. I would love that.

Debra (26:58):

Thanks again.

Jess (27:00):

Yeah, thank you for having me. This is great.

Debra (27:02):

Thanks for listening to the Dareful Project. Please follow, like and leave a review. It really helps. We're on all your favorite platforms, Spotify, apple Podcasts, Google Podcast, iHeartRadio, Audible. Tune in Amazon Music, Stitcher, SoundCloud, and YouTube. And to connect, you can email me at [email protected]. That's Debra, D-E-B-R-A at Dareful one. That's with the number one.com. Thanks for listening.

Kim Alexis is one of the most recognized faces in the modeling industry. She's been on the cover of over 500 magazines, appeared in six Sports Illustrated swimsuit issues and has walked the runway for top designers around the world. She's written 11 books, both fiction and nonfiction, but is mainly known for her clean-living eBooks. Now in her 60s, Kim is a passionate advocate for the importance of making healthy choices in all stages of our lives--what we eat, how we take care of our bodies, what we put on our skin. In short, how we care for ourselves, mentally and physically. Look for Kim's clean-living column in Men's Journal.

How to find Kim and more on her clean-living research:

Her website

Instagram

Facebook

LinkedIn

YouTube

A few helpful sites for figuring out what products are made of:

Think Dirty

EWG

Yuka

Transcript:

Debra Hotaling (00:04):

Hello and welcome to the Dareful Project. I'm Debra Hotaling. Our guest today, Kim Alexis, has appeared on the cover of over 500 magazines. She's one of the most recognized faces in the modeling industry. You've seen her on Mademoiselle, Vogue, Glamour… you name it, she's been on it. And as a teenager I was obsessed with all of those magazines. She's a passionate advocate now of being mindful about making healthy choices in how we exercise, what we're eating, the product that we're putting on our faces, how we're thinking about ourselves mentally and physically. And it isn't just for folks in our stage of life, it spans our lifetime. She's a passionate advocate for this, and she's going to tell us more about creating a lifestyle around clean living. Kim, welcome.

Kim Alexis (01:01):

Yes, thank you for having me.

Debra (01:03):

So you are a passionate advocate for healthy living and this came from your own journey. Tell us how you got to this place.

Kim (01:13):

It probably started when I was young because I thought I wanted to be a pharmacist. So I had that whole thing of cause and effect that everything affects something else. I was fascinated with how that worked. Probably in pharmacy school, if I'd gone that way instead of into the modeling business, I would've switched to the natural and naturopathic way of being. But that passion stayed with me, especially as my business was looking your best at all times. And it's hard to do that when you're constantly inundating yourself with bad choices, whether it's what you eat, what you wear, what you think about, who you hang out with, how late you stay up, all that had in effect. So I learned that it was important that I had to take care of the outer in order to also feel good on the inside.

Debra (02:06):

Well, I imagine being a model is like being like any other elite athlete, you really have to keep everything fine-tuned, right?

Kim (02:14):

Yes. And a preparation is very big. So the day of a shooting, you've already done it. If you're not ready the day of the shoot, it's too late.

Debra (02:23):

But clean living, that word gets bantered about so much. I don't even know what it means anymore. Can you ground us on what that means to you?

Kim (02:33):

To me it means making healthier alternatives in all aspects. Whether it's what you choose to use as an air freshener in your car, or do you even need one? And it's because I've been in the marketing business, I know what products do for you. We are in this society where we want things quicker, more comfortable, faster, better, softer, stronger, harder, whatever it is, but at what cost. So sometimes products that give you that quicker or better or softer, whatever it is, thing also could come with some extra toxins that we don't need anymore. Clean living is choosing healthier options. We have a lot of different options. We have a lot of different products that do numerous things for us and to us. So sometimes certain products might be beneficial because it's quicker, faster, stronger, softer, whatever, but it may be at the detriment to our health. So my theory is that I try and stay as simple and as clean and as close to nature as possible.

Debra (03:46):

So it's easy to get down a rabbit hole. One, because everybody labels everything as being clean. And two, once you start doing the research, I think it's easy for us to get paralyzed. There are so many choices and decisions that have to be made. Is there an easy way to get started?

Kim (04:09):

There are a couple of options. One that I enjoy because this is all a learning process and you can't just say in one day, I'm cleaning up everything and it's a slow peel away the onion. So there are apps that you can put on your phone. I know of three. Yuka is one that's good for foods, Y-U-K-A. And then there are two that are good for cleaning products, makeup, sunblock, skincare. One is called Think Dirty. The other one is EWG, environmental Working Group. So when you are at a grocery store, any product you're getting, you could use their scanning option and see where that product ranks.

Debra (05:01):

We're in the grocery store together. Do you have your phone out and you're going through and checking product before you purchase?

Kim (05:09):

Yes, because I'm always learning. Everyone has their basics of what they always use. Start slowly and do some research. Let's say you're thinking of a shampoo. There are certain companies that are completely proven. Every product that they have is fine. So if you pick it by the company, you can trust the company. Others are different depending on what the ingredients are. And it's not defined across all boards. But there are some products that you can get that you can be very, no reliability wise, that they will never put anything in there. So that's one of their big selling flames.

Debra (05:55):

But really you have to do the research yourself, not just rely on a slogan on a piece of packaging, right?

Kim (06:02):

Yes. And it's sad because the word natural or natural fragrance or whatever it is, fragrance is a term that can hold thousands and thousands of different things. And another sad thing is that our FDA does not identify very many or ban very many ingredients and allows them in, whereas in Europe, they are much more particular about what they allow in products.

Debra (06:26):

I wanted to ask you about that. So when I travel to Europe, I take an extra bag and I'm going to the drug stores and picking up all the goodies there. Maybe it's just because I love all of those things and they smell nice, but I also feel like I'm getting more natural, fewer ingredients in those products. What do you think about that?

Kim (06:48):

Well, let's keep in the states for right now. I was using this hand soap forever, and I just love the smell. I did the scan on that and I'm like, oh my gosh, it's a six now. A zero is good, 10 is awful. And it was like a six. And so I'm like, oh no. I thought I was doing a good thing. I thought it smelled good and natural, but it was not. So you may have to get your little scanner out and see, but products we buy again for that emotional thing or it brings back a memory of being in Europe and you had such good time. And so at what cost do you change your lifestyle? If you really love the smell and it's that important to you, go for it. Just stay healthier somewhere else in another area.

Debra (07:37):

How do you do it for recipes? Let's talk about food now for a little bit. How do you do this without it costing a million dollars, without having to throw everything out that you have already in your kitchen and starting over again? Are there steps that people can take?

Kim (07:55):

Probably with what you feel is most important or what you use most. If you're baking, flour is probably your basic ingredient. And there are many alternatives to flour. Some are very, very expensive. Others are just a matter of tweaking one small thing. But again, what's at what cost? Do you want to spend more money down the road in the hospital or are you going to feel better and live longer and have a better quality of life now? And I do believe that our food does make a difference.

Debra (08:29):

Do you have a garden?

Kim (08:32):

I have a garden, but it doesn't do very well. It's too far away from the house. I forget that it's there. So the poor thing struggles along.

Debra (08:43):

I like to think about gardens, but I bet you I spend a gazillion dollars on a garden that I could just go to a nice grocery store and get just as nice of things.

Kim (08:54):

Yes, yes. So again, where do you want to spend your time? Where do you want to spend your money? I buy beautiful tomato plants and then the tomato plant, let's say is $15. I get three tomatoes off of it, the ones that I catch before they get eaten. And I'm like, okay, those are pretty expensive tomatoes here to go to the store.

Debra (09:15):

Exactly. But tomatoes, that's sort of a pastime. I sort of regard them like pets rather than things you eat because they take such care in feeding.

Before we got on air today, you and I were talking about hair. We were talking about gray hair because coloring is something that many of us do and you just have to decide. So tell me more.

Kim (09:43):

Let me preface: back when I worked--now we're talking 45 years--I don't mean to date you, but I started working 45 years ago. We didn't color our hair. I don't believe there were very many salons. All of the girls, we all were kind of just natural. So that was my hair back in the day. And as I've gotten older, when covid hit, I stopped coloring and I used Sun In

Debra (10:10):

Sun In!

Kim (10:12):

So that's what this part is now. This new stuff coming in is gray. And so one woman on Instagram was like, honey, I can't even listen and focus on you because all I'm doing is stare at your roots. And I sent back this video and I'm like, listen here. If that's all you can focus on, go follow someone else. I want to stay natural. The coloring gives me a massive headache for like 24 hours. It won't go away. It's not worth it to me. So I am going gray. That's part of the reason I cut my hair off. My hair was 17 inches longer. I had it braided at my salon and my girl cut it off and we're giving it to children with hair loss.

Debra (10:56):

I love that. Besides the cranky person who came after you, what has surprised you about going gray? Did you know that it was going to be kind of this flaming … I don't know … It's just such a hot potato.

Kim (11:12):

It's a really touchy subject in a way. And some women are like, girlfriend, I love you, but I'm never, I'm going to fight it until the day I die. That's fine. And I'm not pointing my finger at anyone else. Anyone can do whatever they want to do. I'm just telling you what I'm doing. So to me, gray hair is not a big deal, but some of the young girls are dying their hair gray.

Debra (11:38):

It's true, right?

Kim (11:41):

The hard part for me is the transition. So that's why I cut a lot of it off. Number one, to give to the children, they want the longer hair. So I wanted them to have as much of my hair as possible. But the other part was just I want to hack off all the old stuff because the news growing in and for some reason lately it's getting much grayer.

Debra (12:03):

Okay, we're looking at you. How far along can we, you have about a year before you're going to be full in, right?

Kim (12:10):

Probably, yeah, probably. If I keep this length, which I probably will. I'm going to have to, maybe I'll shave it. Oh my god.

Debra (12:19):

Alright, well keep us posted on that woman, whoever she was. She just went pale right now. She doesn't even know why.

Kim (12:27):

No, she stopped following me a long time ago, so she's not listening to me. I mean basically what my feedback was from women all over the country was, God bless you. Thank you that you are giving me permission to age gracefully myself. And I didn't realize it was that big of a deal, but it is. And women want to feel good about themselves and what's wrong with having beautiful gray hair?

Debra (12:56):

Amen. I was surprised how many people had really strong opinions about Dolly Parton being gorgeous and being up there in that Dallas cheerleaders costume…

Kim (13:09):

Exactly. And I think women who are secure in their own hearts and minds or who have wonderful mates and partners are fine supporting other women. Sometimes it's the ones who've been beaten down or whatever feel like they need to lash back. I think so I feel bad when I see somebody ripping me apart or trying to rip me apart. Number one, I let it roll off my back for the most part. But our business was one that was critical all the time, and we were always either justifying or it was an opinion one day and then someone else would have a different opinion the next and Oh, Darlene, this is the only way to do your eyebrows, or this is the only way to put your mascara on. Then the next day someone would tell you something totally different. So we got almost confused in a way, and then almost callous where it's like, yeah, right, just do your own thing.

Debra (14:05):

What's the worst advice, either in your career or as you've gone down the journey of clean living? What's the worst advice or the biggest misconception?

Kim (14:16):

I would say it is that you can't have any fun anymore. You're so busy with identifying everything and that you've got to stay so pure. But to me, I like the word simple and it's simplifying my life. My recipes are simple and I try to just stay as close to how God made things as possible because he also designed our bodies. So if he gave us and designed the food and he designed our bodies, our bodies recognize what it's being put in it. I think that we have a better chance down the road of living longer and better lives.

Debra (14:59):

You have a series of books that talk about a lot of these topics. You have one on cooking, you have on beauty. Talk to us a little bit about what motivated you to write those and what we should look for as we're looking at these books.

Kim (15:16):

So I think as I got older, I started looking around and trying to see how am I relevant? Because truly at 25 I was kind of looking for a new career. I had finished my Revlon contract and I had been paid to not work by being exclusive to Revlon. I wasn't working in other areas. So I came to a screeching halt and had to look around and decide what I wanted to do. And that's how I got into broadcasting. Then I got into speaking and I realized that I liked having a voice and that I had something to say. And so when I wrote my Amazon books, I started writing them as a term paper and I would quote at the bottom where I sourced all my information from an Amazon's like, Nope, that's a copyright infringement and I just want to hear your personal story. And so I kept getting denied, denied, denied. So I learned on the Amazon eBooks, I feel this is what I've been through, this is how I've learned. Now I'm writing for Men's Journal and I can go back to citing sources. And so when I make a statement on something, I source it and put a link in the article itself.

Debra (16:43):

Tell us about your work with Men's Journal. What kind of topics do you cover? What are you passionate about?

Kim (16:48):

What we've been talking about it. Anything to do with clean living. I've got 15 articles up already, but they go from using new fabrics made out of bamboo, which is a type of rayon, believe it or not. And so just describing a little bit of the history of that. I just try to identify a cleaner way or a cleaner version or a healthier alternative in how we live.

Debra (17:23):

Are people surprised what changes in their life when they decide to live healthy this way?

Kim (17:31):

I don't have feedback yet from people, and I think because it's a slow process of going towards disease, it's also a slow process of healing. But we do every single moment of our lives, we are either going towards or away from health, every choice we make

Debra (17:52):

Truly, and our whole medical system is based on you already being sick and people trying to fix you rather than coming from a point of wellness.

Kim (18:03):

Yes. The medical business treats symptoms and it's better to treat the underlying causes. So I don't feel great today so I've been slamming vitamin C and zinc and a bunch of different things. Herbs. I'm taking care of strengthening my immune system versus just treating the symptoms.

Debra (18:30):

What's your feeling about supplements and vitamins?

Kim (18:36):

You should see my cupboard! I'm always trying something new. I'm always researching, and that's what some of my men's journal is. I just wrote one on Indian gooseberry, which people don't know about. So there's just so much in my mind to learn, and that's where my happy place is just going online and finding out new things about a product or why I should try something new. I mean, I'm like squirrel, squirrel. I mean, if I'm in the health food store, don't talk to me. I'm busy.

Debra (19:09):

So tell me about Indian Gooseberry. We don't know about it. What should we know?

Kim (19:12):

[added: Indian gooseberry, also know as Amla extract, is a nutritional supplement/superfood that contains essential vitamins like C and A. Studies have shown that this powerhouse extract can potentially improve digestion, reduce cholesterol levels and support healthy heart function.]

Kim (19:36):

I've also been writing about honey, which in addition to being a food is also antibacterial, antiviral, you can put it on cuts. I've written about Manuka honey, why do you spend so much more on Manuka honey and what do those ratings mean? So there's a UML or UMF rating, and so all that stuff is fun for me.

Debra (20:01):

My mother-in-Law was born on the small island of Iria Icarus, which is one of the blue zones, and they're very serious about their honey. It goes through the seasons. They have spring, winter, fall, they have honeys that go through the whole seasons and they're used as medicine very seriously as medicine, not just for all the other great things that you eat on the island.

Kim (20:27):

Right, interesting. I know honey's very good and it doesn't spoil.

Debra (20:36):

I'm excited to see what the feedback is on your Men's Journal journey because I think that that's reaching a whole new audience.

Kim (20:47):

So I think it's about 70% men. They've got 40 million viewers, and they also own a couple other publications including Sports Illustrated and Parade Magazine. It's a good group of people, and I'm still learning. I mean, there's just so much to learn when you start a new business. So I'm a little overwhelmed.

Debra (21:12):

Have you changed your eating habits or the way that you approach clean as you've gotten older? Are there things that you do differently now?

Kim (21:25):

When I was working, I was pretty aware of things that I thought were good, but I know one choice that I made, I used to buy cold pressed oils and I would use them to cook. And I thought because it was cold pressed, it was better. But then as I got older and researched and learned more, I realized cold pressed oil should just be used raw in salads and dressings or things like that and not heat it up. And so I was like, oh, I used to be so proud of myself, like use it and put it in my stir fry and heat it up and it doesn't have as high of a smoke point. So I want to get into that with Men's Journal too. And the barbecuing, there's certain ways to barbecue. They're healthier than others. You don't want that black on the outside, the acrylamides. So there's just so much to learn and I try to make it easy and give you the history of why and then some healthier alternatives to see if you want to make that change. If you don't, then you don't.

Debra (22:26):

So how do we begin? What's one very small step we could do today that would put us towards this path?

Kim (22:35):

For me, it's looking at what you do the most. What product do you utilize the most? For some people it might be skincare or sunblock for others. Well, for all of us, what we wear every day, our clothing, what we wash, our clothes and sleep in with our sheets is something pretty much touching our skin 24 hours a day, unless you're taking a shower. So if you have too many toxins that are sitting on your skin from your laundry detergent, that may cause a problem. Some people feel like they have to throw those beads in to make your laundry smell fresh. That's not normal. What is that doing to your system? Or they don't want static cling, so they're using dryer sheets that could disrupt your hormones. So I use those little wool balls.

Kim (23:31):

So there's just little things you can tweak. Cleaning products. Air fresheners, they put those little things on the vents. Those are not natural either. And you are breathing that in every day. So there are small things to become aware of. You start looking at products and you're like, ah, what's in that? As I said, it's peeling away an onion. You can't do it all at once. And as I'm still learning and I'm not perfect, but I find that I feel better if I do as well as I can and stay as clean as possible for my household.

Debra (24:13):

I love that. And in addition to your work with Men's Journal, that folks can start following and they can check out all of your eBooks on Amazon. Are there other places that folks can go to learn more?

Kim (24:28):

Well, my website's got a lot of the history. You'd go down reminiscing lane there with a lot of the photos and covers that we uploaded, all the ads, all the stuff that I used to do, write for two other magazines also. So I'm just trying to expand. I'm also developing a jail ministry, working with Dress for Success, and also St. Vincent de Paul, which handles homeless people and trying to help empower these women who are coming out of the jail system that want to learn and want to get a job, and what new things do they need to do and what mindset and adjustments do they need to make in their lifestyle and how they think about themselves and others to get ahead and be successful.

Debra (25:18):

I love that. We will make sure that all of this is listed in the notes. Kim, you have been really generous with your knowledge and information. I so appreciate you.

Kim (25:28):

Oh, well thank you. Thanks for asking.

Debra (25:30):

Thanks for listening to The Dareful Project. Please follow, like and leave a review. It really helps. We're on all your favorite platforms, Spotify, apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, iHeartRadio, audible, tune in Amazon Music, Stitcher, SoundCloud, and YouTube. And to connect, you can email me at [email protected]. That's Debra, D-E-B-R-A at Dareful one. That's with the number one.com. Thanks for listening.

Poet Mary Oliver writes, "tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" It's a question Diana Dunbar Place is obsessed with. She's the founder of Third Act Quest which helps guide folks as they're figuring out this second arc of life—how we live, work, play and serve. We talk about leaps of faith, rising strong from lightning strike moments (looking at you, cancer) and connecting the dots to live a true and beautiful life.

QUEST 2024 - 1st Annual Third Act Summit - Click for info. and to get your ticket - limited to 100 women

333 Collective

Third Act Quest website

Diana Place/LinkedIn

Transcript:

Debra Hotaling (00:04):

Hello and welcome to the Dareful Project. I'm Debra Hotaling. The American poet, Mary Oliver has this terrific line. I'm going to read it to you. "Tell me what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" And it's a question our guest Diana Place is absolutely obsessed with. She's the founder of Third Act Quest, which helps guide folks as they're figuring out the second arc of their life, how we live, how we work, how we play, and how we serve. Diana, welcome.

Diana Place (00:40):

Well, thank you Debra. I'm glad to be here with you.

Debra (00:43):

And before we talk about what we're doing, let's talk a little bit about how we got here, how you got here, what were the circumstances that got you started with Third Act Quest?

Diana (00:57):

Okay, so it was pretty clear to me. I'd spent a long career, as I call it, dancing on the edges of my passion. And I was in the process of building a business I'd been working on for about four years, and I was, that productivity junkie was alive in me and then all of a sudden, I call it the most what started as what I saw as three coinciding life disruptions. I later called lightning strike moments, right as I was about to turn 60, I got a cancer diagnosis, a pretty bad one. At the same time, I had to shut down that business. I was preparing to empty nest as my daughter headed off to college and I was turning 60. So I got through it and it's in the rear view mirror for me now. But what was the day? I will remember the day I decided to start Third Act Quest.

Diana (02:15):

These lightning strikes just like if lightning hits a beach, it turns into crystals. These lightning strikes completely cleared my deck and I sat thinking about life. And when you've almost lost it, you realize it's preciousness. So I started saying to myself, this is my third act. Okay, what am I going to do? I Googled it, saw this really cool talk by Jane Fonda talking about her third act, and I decided in that moment that I was going to share the stories of women who were living really beautiful, meaningful, joyful third acts into their late fifties, sixties, seventies, and in some case, eighties. So I started a series of annual storytelling events. But along the way I decided too that there was so much need for support and inspiration. I also did a number of other things, workshops and retreats like that. But it really started in that moment. And I like to say that when I look back on it, I see it as one of the greatest gifts of my life to have these three coinciding things that really literally stopped me in my tracks. And there was a great aha coming out of it as opposed to what I guess could have been a feeling of fear and complete remorse and victimhood. So I really feel grateful now for that moment. But thanks for asking. It is as clear as today is to me, that moment.

Debra (04:08):

It's interesting to think about such difficult challenges as being something that you're grateful for. I mean, that's a tough one because a lot of folks would've just sort of curled up in a ball and just sort of let it happen. But you had some tenacity. But going from that inspiration, that knowledge, two sides of questions. One, the work that you're doing and also just being an entrepreneur, how did you move from going, I've got to do something to actually inventing this work that you're doing? How did you actually start?

Diana (04:48):

Well, I will say, I'm going to go backwards a little bit. I'm not going to retrace my career. I'm 64 now, so that would take the whole of our time together. But basically I spent that time looking back and tracing that, what I like to call a thread that came through my life and what has happened a lot during my life. I had a long corporate career, but I danced in and out of sort of more corporate traditional what I think I was supposed to do and succeed. I was at America Online when it was happening, and I was senior vice president. I basically saw the thread was I enjoy that. I'd learn a lot, I'd get a lot out of it, but then I ditch it. And I did several times in my late twenties, early thirties, I started my own thing, which is cause marketing firm.

Diana (05:53):

Then I did a couple of other little startups along the way, but I went back and forth between corporate and entrepreneurial across my life. And then finally as many women past 50, well, I was a late in life mom, so I left the corporate world and decided to focus on her. So I did. I had several businesses. I started sort of all over the map, everything from a photography business to what was the business that I closed as after I got sick. So every time I tried on what I wanted to do, I realized that I like to be the one that decided to follow my heart and the way I wanted to create a business or be in business I didn't want to be a part of. And I'm sure many people listening to can relate. I didn't want to be a corporate drone, but I also didn't want to be under the demands and control of an organization I didn't believe in. So what better way to do it and start my own. So that's where it was all logical. And plus, I'll have to admit this, if I tried, and this is not a story of ageism, but if I tried at that age 60 years old, I really would have a hard time finding a role back in the corporate world. So there you go.

Debra (07:27):

And the people who join you for Third Act Quest, who are they and what you've discovered from their stories?

Diana (07:37):

You asked what I discovered about the people or about what I'm seeing in general.

Debra (07:43):

Talk about trends. What are you seeing in general? What has surprised you?

Diana (07:48):

I began the storytelling events with women and men, and I refined it lately to and have created a community that's women over 50. The trends I'm seeing relate predominantly to women, but also crossover to men's experiences at this time. I see a lot of women that even if they come to me saying, man, I got to figure out what's next. I've had it with my job, or I've just been pushed out of my job. I'm no longer needed, or I'm just ready to retire. And I said, so I see a lot of people who are really holding on. So that's one category. They hold onto an old fashioned storyline. They retire, they maybe jump on a board. And none of this is, I'm not maligning it, but it is the standard way that people have approached retirement over this generation and before. But there are a lot of people I feel holding on and feeling like they're almost preparing for a steady decline of their productivity, of their engagement, of their impact.

Diana (09:21):

I see a lot of uncertainty. They've worked their whole lives and they've dedicated it all to the job or the company or the initiative. And even the most amazingly talented can feel paralyzed when they try to figure out what's next. They haven't gone in, they haven't really dug down in their hearts just to feel what they would enjoy. So another category that goes along with this, a lot of self-judgment. I've talked to a lot of people about the internalized perfectionism, but also internalized ageism. I'm too old to start that. I could never do that. I see a lot of fear. I mean, fear is a big one.

Diana (10:10):

I feel that fear keeps us stuck and stuck to the storyline. And one of the things that I see counter to that, which is beautiful, sort of like a revolution of way people are thinking more and more is they're getting excited and they're understanding the gifts of this time of life, the resilience they've proven as they've encountered so many difficulties. And also, and this is what I love, and they learn to manage fear, fear's, real fear's in all of us. It keeps us from falling off a cliff, or it keeps us from sadly on the negative side, doing the things that really would bring us the most joy and meaning. So I'm seeing more and more people in this time of life saying, hello, this is my, to quote Mary Oliver, my one wild and precious life. So I am going to take some leaps of faith and I am going to embrace possibility instead of decline. I see a lot of curiosity and this positive revolution, I guess we could call it. I see a lot of curiosity. I see a lot of courage, and I see a lot of creativity in the ways people choose to live and the way they choose to love how they wear and what they do. I see a lot of emerging great creativity. So I'm seeing more and more of that. And I think that's the foundation of your podcast and your organization. So I know you can relate there too,

Debra (12:03):

But the holding onto that old story that is, man, it's deep within us. I always, I've thought about Barbie dolls, and when I was a kid, I had Barbie dolls and Barbie dolls helped me understand what it was like to be a teenager. And it felt like there were always models to figure out what I was going to be next. But I got to tell you, I feel like I need a Barbie doll for over 60 because I don't feel like there's any model how my parents and grandparents aged into, I think of them at 65, and it feels completely different than what I am. And it feels a little scary that you kind of don't have that.

Diana (12:48):

Well, it's interesting. So that works two ways, right? Yep. Oh my God, what should I be? But there's this other thing around possibility, and I mean, you've hit on something that I think is so important. I really agree with you, and that's why the storytelling events, I've probably, over the course of the several years I did it, we've interviewed about 50 women about just inventive ways to reinvent their lives. One of my favorites, I mean, I have so many favorites. One of my favorites is a woman, Melissa Davey, who you should actually speak with as well.

Diana (13:31):

I love the story. I'll tell it quickly. So she's 65. She has this fabulous career. She's very successful. She's advocating in DC, she's in something in the insurance industry. And she said they would've employed me until I was 75. They love me, I love them. But she said, one day I decided I don't want to die at my desk. And she won this opportunity to be on the set with a director of a film in her area. And then literally the next day after being on set, went in, quit her job and said, I'm making a film. So she created this really cool film called Beyond 60, which I think there are like 10 women profiled. And then she's about to release one called Climbing Into Life about Alex Honnold, the guy that did free solo, his mom who over 60 climbed El Capitan. So there's this interesting thing that, so yeah, what am I going to be, there's no role model for me necessarily, but I look at it as like, okay, open season.

Diana (14:45):

I mean, look at Diana Nyad. She was 64 when she, I mean her body was able at 28, but everything else, mostly her grit was there. And I think that's what comes with aging. So anyway, I want to mention one thing that's so important to me, and my mother just passed, so I feel like I can say this without her being hurt by this, but part of my personal inspiration was my grandmother. And I think you'll hear a lot about that from a lot of people. And my grandmother was not at all traditional in her sixties and beyond. She did wild ass stuff. She never said, never. She traveled to China, she went to Spain and decided to learn Spanish. Right before she went, she wrote a couple of books she painted. She was, no one told her no. And then my mother was the opposite, completely shut down from possibility. And I said, I want more women to feel like my grandmother and nobody to feel like my mother. That's part of my emotional driving force for what I'm doing.

Debra (16:06):

Love the idea of looking to our grandmothers. As you're saying that, I'm thinking I had very close relationships with both my grandparents and they were awesome. They were badass. And you think of all those women turn of the century, you look at pioneer women and other folks, and they did incredible things because no one told them no. They had to figure it out, right?

Diana (16:32):

Well, women's rights weren't there necessarily when our grandmother's around. But there's something about, I mean, I was born in 59, and there's something about I think that's a tough generation. A lot of women were really pigeonholed and told they had to be the Leave It to Beaver mom. And I am not saying it was perfect before them, but there's another film I'm going to mention by a woman, Sky Bergman called Lives Well Lived, which is all about these beautiful stories. Most of her people are in their seventies and eighties and even beyond, but they are still inspirational. So yeah, I think we need more role models, and I think we're getting them. That's what I'm excited about because I think younger women need to know that it doesn't, with so much talk about wrinkle cream and Botox and all this stuff, your face is going to get wrinkled. Yeah, your body's not going to work as well, but there's so much you can do. And happiness actually is proven to peak after 60. So I honestly think that this emergence of things like your Dareful project, my Third at Quest and other dozens and dozens of initiatives are going to help so much.

Debra (18:18):

What's the one thing that we all could do that you've learned from listening to stories and convening people together to figure out their third act? Is there one thing, the smallest thing that we could do this very day that would change us?

Diana (18:43):

So the one thing I'm going to mention is sort of foundational to opening up to possibility. That's really the key. And I would say that one thing is to choose to let go. Let go of beliefs and expectations. Let go of regrets and negative emotions and let go of fear. None of this is easy, but I like to say you and only you get to decide. You get to choose to embrace curiosity and unearth your passions, but you really have to let go first of a lot of stuff. And I was reading a beautiful book actually called Letting Go, and one of the things that the author who was just, I resonated with every word in his book, but he said, once you neutralize lies, the painful moments, the regrets that are embedded deep in you, they're the ones that trigger feelings. And he said, if you are aware of this, then you can release the actual feelings and then all those thoughts will also go away. So letting go is my one thing, and it isn't an easy one thing, but it's I think powerful to even think about.

Debra (20:28):

But as you're saying that, it reminds me being in corporate life, there were so many, God, the daily battles, they were so fierce, they were do or die. It felt like everything hinged on them, the alliances, the budget, there was all that stuff, and it just took up so much time and created so much anxiety. And now when you get out of that environment, you realize I have a lot of energy to go do some really interesting things that I was totally devoted to these sort of tribal warfare moments.

Diana (21:09):

Well, even if you work for a company that had a brilliant purpose, you were usually trapped in the battles that didn't allow you to attach to that. I mean, isn't that for you? I mean, I'm going to turn the question back to you, but I mean, isn't it our life, you see the end zone, you're going to leave this life, but oh my God, before you leave, isn't there just this craving, at least I've seen so much of this in people as we age, even more craving to have our life be meaningful, and even if it's only one person that benefits from our presence to have that sense of a purpose for what we do, whether we're an artist or whether we're a writer or musician or a philanthropist. There's so many ways. And yeah, the corporate world makes it hard for us to do that. Some of these visionary companies have pushed that mission down and really internalized it, but not all of them. I think there's a lot of room.

Debra (22:18):

But even the ones that have terrific missions, we're still human beings. And so we still get together in a room and still do all of that stuff. My husband reminds me, he has this great reminder that we talk about what is going to be our obit? What is someone going to say about us at the end? And then you work your way back from there. What do you got to do today to make sure that you leave that legacy?

Diana (22:43):

That's brilliant. That's a beautiful way of putting it. For many of us, our legacy, and it can be as simple as being the way we parent. So even if we're not discovering a cure for cancer or creating the best American novel, even if we just parent beautifully and we know that we're leaving our children who are doing good in the world, I mean, those kinds of legacy should uplift us to possibility. And it all starts with, as I said, letting go of crap, letting go of I should do this, I shouldn't do that. I should be this way. And just saying, who am I? Who really am I? And how can I have a joyful life, but also spread joy?

Debra (23:39):

And you don't know doing what you might think is a small thing everyone is watching. And so you do not know where you may have influence by being a good parent. Someone notices you who you may never meet again. It just may be just sitting on the other side of a restaurant and noticing. And so there's no small act when it's of what you're describing. I think it has tremendous impact.

Diana (24:08):

That's wonderful. So you're so right.

Debra (24:21):

And what you talk about with younger folks feeling uncertain. I think that that is impact that we have just by showing up every day and releasing that fear that you're talking about because they're really scared and they're like, you know what? I'm in my thirties and if it just keeps getting weirder and weirder, I don't know what I'm going to think about being in my sixties. And we know it's way better, right?

Diana (24:47):

Yes. Well, the thing that is more and more fascinating to me, and I'm going to try to figure out how to be more intergenerational in my gatherings and programs, my last storytelling event, most of the people were women over 50, but this one woman joined in her mid thirties and she emailed me afterward and she said, this is going to sound weird, but I'm actually looking forward to getting older now. Thank you so much. I was so afraid. Now I'm excited. So it's like that gave me goosebumps. And so figuring out the intergenerational connections that we can have, not just to teach them our wisdom, but to have them teach us their wisdom, that sort of mutual meet in the middle and share with each other is something I want to explore a lot more.

Debra (25:48):

I love that so much. So Diana, tell us more about Third Act Quest. What do you offer? We'll make sure that we put everything in the notes. Everyone's going to be able to find Diana and her terrific organization, but what do you love? What do you recommend? If someone wanted to sample it, how would you guide them?

Diana (26:09):

Okay, so Third Act Quest is all about inspiring in reframing the way we look at aging. I'm not an activist working out in the world to try to change it in the corporate or the media or anything like that, though I care about that and align with a lot of people that are doing that. Third Aquest is more about women over 50 and potentially in the future, younger women to really embrace this time of life. They're one wild and precious life. Thank you Mary Oliver. We do a number of things. I have a newsletter like a lot of us, I send out emails. I have a really nice list of people who engage with me there, and that's all they do. And then I've got also a couple of other really exciting things happening. As I mentioned, the annual storytelling event has shifted into what I'm now calling the first annual third Act summit next May. It's called Quest 2024. As you can tell, I love the word quest and the whole concept of a quest.

Diana (27:21):

So I'm excited for that. I've got about 25 women that are going to come speak some really cool topics around creative living, creating your life. And then at the core, and this has really been where I've put a lot of my energy, is I started a couple of years ago a community called the 333 Collective. And that is basically stemming from the craving that I witnessed in my own community and the women I was encountering for really meaningful, deep connection with other women at this time of life, but not just at this time of life, but women who share their passion and excitement about it.

Diana (28:13):

They may not know exactly how they're going to map out their third act, but they are excited to meet with other women who want to do that and not just coast along, as you say, stick to the story. And I'm thrilled at the impact we're starting to have just within that community. It's a membership or a private kind of a community, but it's growing and it's really fun. We also do Third Act Quest also does at least one trip or retreat a year. I'm ideally having three each year. And last year we went to the Camino de Santiago and took a beautiful journey there together. And next fall I'm planning a trip to Guatemala to a place called Casa Paloma, which is a magical place on Lake Lan. And so that'll be a blend of some introspection, but also exploration, which I think travel does for us. So I will admit that's just fun being an entrepreneur because I started off with a vision and have meandered and expanded, and in some cases Covid had me contract and create online workshops and things like that. But now I'm really focused in on this community and these in-person gatherings.

Debra (29:49):

Oh, that sounds amazing. In Guatemala, man, that sounds super exciting.

Diana (29:54):

You need to look up Casa Paloma. Actually, Joyce Maynard, who is the keynote speaker at Quest 2024 next May, created that part of her beautiful creation of life, and it's magical there. So I can't wait. In fact, I'm going tomorrow.

Debra (30:15):

Okay, you're going to have to report back.

Diana (30:17):

I have to do a site visit.

Debra (30:18):

Of course you do. Yes, you do. We're all about site visits now for next year's summit. Is there still space available if folks are interested in joining you?

Diana (30:29):

Yes, there is. I just opened up the registration about a week ago. I am limiting it to a hundred women and then the 25 speakers on top of that. So it'll be 125 of us. So I have an early registration offer that's good through January 15th. So that's quite a bit of a savings. And part of my desire is to really show people what the three collective is. Most of our speakers are members, so it'll give people an idea of the kind of things that we do and the kind of women that are in it. And it's going to be on the coast of Rhode Island in this magical little town called Bristol, which is about half hour from Newport, Rhode Island.

Debra (31:20):

That all sounds lovely. And you can also find Diana, and can you find Third Act Quest also on LinkedIn?

Diana (31:28):

Well, yes, but I spend most time under my own name, my personal LinkedIn, because I've had LinkedIn for so many over 20 years, so that's much more of my place.

Debra (31:41):

So listeners and viewers, if you're interested and who would not want to go do all of this with the fabulous Diana, please make sure that you check out her site. Please check out Third Act Quest and maybe we will all see each other in Guatemala next year.

Diana (31:57):

Please come join us. I'd love it. Such a pleasure, Debra, and I love what you do and it's been such a joy to speak with you.

Debra (32:08):

Well, thank you, Diana. Thank you for all the work that you're doing with Third Act Quest, and we're going to loop back because we're going to want to hear how everything is going.

Diana (32:18):

Wonderful.

Debra (32:19):

Thanks again.

Diana (32:20):

Have a great day.

Debra (32:21):

Thanks for listening to the Dareful Project. Please follow, like and leave a review. It really helps. We're on all your favorite platforms, Spotify, apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, iHeartRadio, audible, tune in Amazon Music, Stitcher, SoundCloud, and YouTube. And to connect, you can email me at [email protected]. That's Debra, D-E-B-R-A at Dareful one. That's with the number one.com. Thanks for listening.

Like many of us, Chris Preuss spent much of his adult life working up the corporate ladder—the nights, the weekends, the career moves—and he rose up the ranks to become a senior exec with a number of companies you would recognize. And then, he made a decision that dramatically changed his life: he left it all behind to lead a Christian ministry. We talk about what led him to rethink his life, what the pivot process feels like and how we change when we embrace a new adventure.

Here's where you can find Chris:

Maranatha Bible and Missionary Conference

Transcript:

Debra Hotaling (00:04):

Hello and welcome to the Dareful Project. I'm Debra Hotaling. My friend Chris Preuss spent much of his adult life the way most of us have, that's climbing up the corporate ladder. He's really good at what he does, and so he climbed up pretty fast and pretty high. He ended up as a senior exec with one of the world's largest PR marketing advertising firms, and then he made a decision that changed his entire life. I'm going to let Chris take the story from here. Welcome, Chris.

Chris Preuss (00:38):

Debra, that's so good to be with you. It's so good to see you and just all that you're getting done with this wonderful podcast. I'm honored to be here.

Debra (00:46):

Thank you. So give us the groundwork. Where were you at? You were high level, you were cool, you were doing all sorts of important work, and then what happened?

Chris (00:57):

Well, in terms of the transitioning into a different phase of life, I had an amazing 34 year career in PR and at that most in the auto industry as you and I had worked together in that capacity in the past and got to be on the top of some pretty big mountains during that time as head of communication to GM during the bankruptcy, which was quite the thrill and had a good stint as the chief marketing Communications officer for one of the big suppliers. And then ended up, as you mentioned back with Ford and actually evolved into running their agency business on the PR side through one of the big PR advertising conglomerates, WP group. But to be honest, over were probably the last, I would say maybe five to six years, things just started to change the equations of what gave you satisfaction and what professionally you had done. I wouldn't call it an existential crisis per se, but maybe just a slow evolution to wanting to do something different with far fewer years in front of me than I have now behind me, which I think in that period you had that wake up call. And so with that, I decided to drop out of corporate life early and completely repurpose myself. And I'm now heading a nonprofit ministry in Western Michigan, a big conference and retreat center or faith-based entities,

Debra (02:30):

Making the decision sounds lovely and clean, but having been in the middle, it's really messy. Can you share a little bit more about the process?

Chris (02:45):

Yeah. Was like I said, it was more of an evolution than something you woke up with, but if I'm honest, getting into more senior positions, particularly in the corporate set, you have to want that. I mean, you're kind of all in and certainly your skills and your abilities get you to a certain level, but then sometimes it's the intangibles and maybe even odd circumstances that might get you into that most senior role. And for most of my young life, I was just singularly focused on that. I mean, God blessed me with a wonderful wife and two wonderful children, and we got to live all over the world. We lived in Washington DC twice. We lived in Switzerland for a while. I worked at Chrysler, Ford and GM at different times, so it was really wonderful. But I think you get to a point where once you maybe apex, there's not a whole lot of other mountains to climb.

(03:46):

And I had actually, the signals for me were getting strong because I've been sort of looking to get out of the industry for maybe the last little section of my career. And I was connected with some great headhunters. It was just, and I am not exaggerating, I ended up in the number two position for three major global chief communication officer jobs at different Fortune 50 companies. And so you're like, okay, and those processes take forever. They're like five, six months sometimes to get through. And you came up short three times. I'm like, all right, well, there's writing on the wall. And then similarly, I'd been in the auto industry. I had just been and done everything, and I was working with Ford and I grew up a Ford kid. My dad was Ford pr. And so it was coming home for me a little bit, but to be honest, they weren't getting my best.

(04:42):

I think I was just running out of that enthusiasm. You need to be the advocate that you need to be when you're in the communications realm. And so then Covid hit, and I think for a lot of people there was just a mass recalculation that Covid did because I mean, you were completely extracted from the environment that you were so used to in terms of how you worked. And then losing all the social contacts that our profession affords both with journalists and with your colleagues, and particularly in an agency role, when you're dealing with tens of millions of dollars of revenue to manage and you have no contact with people, you person it. That soul draining part just accelerated in that time. So that was sort of got me, I think to the point where I started thinking about maybe there might be something else out there to do, because if all it's going to be for the next, if I wanted to work in the next seven to 10 years, it just didn't feel like this. This was going to be a place to spend that time.

Debra (05:49):

I admire your self-reflection on that because I feel it in myself also that you want to gin up that same sort of obsessive corporate energy and go, I can do this again. I can do this again, but it doesn't feel as hungry or as, I don't know, it doesn't have the same mojo.

Chris (06:15):

Yeah, I think that's a great point, particularly in communications. Whenever I go to speak at a university to students or I still get to show up at U of M and some other universities to be a guest speaker every now and then, I make the point that if you're going to spend 80% of your waking hours is doing something, you need to really be passionate about it. And when that passion goes, then all of a sudden it becomes drudgery or it becomes obligation. And to be a hundred percent clear, I mean, I was in a very blessed and fortunate position that I could afford to take this change early, which not everybody can do, and certainly decided to forego a fair amount of earning potential for the next several years to go into nonprofit work. But honestly, once the kids are growing out, we've got grandkids now.

(07:11):

We were just almost laughing about how little we needed to live a life compared to how we lived it. And so my faith has really guided my life. Most of my adult life, I became a Christian as an adult and just after college, and that was sort of a subtract in my life, but it didn't take the predominance of my life that it should have during that corporate ascent. And in that, that was probably one of the more painful realizations several years ago, was just the toll my career had taken on my wife, on my kids, the things missed. And I'm not exaggerating. I can't listen to the Cats in the cradle song. It's just like to this day still, it would be too hard to listen to because I think there was also some of that reflection was, boy, a lot of the life went by when you were on conference calls or sitting in hotel rooms trying to sleep with jet lag in China overnight. So yeah, moving away from that was definitely not hard in that sense.

Debra (08:21):

You're reminding me of a aha moment I had in my career. My kids were little and my daughter was playing, I'm Mommy at work. And so she's on her pretend computer and she's on her pretend phone. And then I try to say something to her and she lifts up her finger and goes, no on the phone. I'm like, oh man. Oh man. Is this our relationship? Oh man, this is bad.

Chris (08:46):

Yeah, yeah. I and your kids pick up on that and in your own mind, you're convinced you're the greatest at everything you do and certainly all the intentionality of showing up for things or the meetings that you think you didn't go to, but the reality was you're not nearly as glorious as you think you are in that respect. And that the kids did have a lot of, I would say times that they felt distant or the dad was a bit of an enigma to them and just he did his thing, but they had life with mom at home. And so yeah, those are things you don't get back. And on reflection, you always wonder, would you do it differently? I'd like to say that I would. I don't know. I'm very happy that it came out the way it has. But yeah, there's a cost to everything. And I think for me, looking forward with what years I had left to work, that cost calculation changed pretty dramatically for me to what was going to make a difference for time and eternity versus just for our standard of living or my own desire to be recognized professionally.

Debra (10:06):

I wanted to ask you if you could have done this younger in your life, but hearing you talk right now, it sounds like it's important that you went through that because you're bringing some wisdom to what you're doing now by having that corporate life.

Chris (10:21):

Yeah, I think those are hard contemplations. Like could you have Yes, probably could have. Would you have, if I'm going to be intellectually honest, no, probably not. Because you were focused on what you thought you wanted. And again, I would never want to pretend that there weren't great benefits and things that I loved my career. I mean, I said sometimes I look back on all the things I got to do in places and people that you got to meet, and it's staggering. How is that me? But the other thing I would say really affected me, and again, you'll appreciate this as a communicator, but one of your key roles is to be an advisor to senior executives. So I've been very close to some very high performing executives, CEOs or chairmans or near CEOs. And one of the more interesting things that I did take note of through my career was how hard it was for so many of them when it came time to hang up, it wasn't their choice.

(11:34):

In other words, they kind of ran the game until time ran out, and they were just going to have to move on. And their inability one to dislodge from that world, and then two, they had no identity when they did, or the identity they had was somewhat misplaced or dislodged, broken marriages, fractured relationships. And I definitely did not want that to be me. And I knew that at an earlier age. I would say that I wanted to be able to decide when I wanted to stop working, not get that call that we've been waiting for you to figure this out on your own, but now it's time to go.

Debra (12:21):

Well, I think about that a lot because you and I both know executives who you move a lot, you work really hard, it's 24/7, and at some point your family goes, we're moving again for the third time in three years? We actually like it here in Florida. So you go do your thing and you come back and hang out with us when you can.

Chris (12:43):

Yeah, yeah. And I mean, what again, just do you count the cost, right? And I don't think when you're kind of blinded with that corporate aspiration or you've sort of got that single-mindedness willing to forego anything. Now, I was fortunate in that my wife and kids would pick up and go, and we did, I think at one point, Stacey, and when we were married for 11 years, we had been in 10 different homes, and some of that was circumstantial with just moving between Chrysler to Ford, they moved us within the Detroit metro area, and then we took some transfers that ended up, we ended up getting called back quickly, but they're moves nonetheless. You're just up and down. And I do remember one discussion we had kind of towards the end of my deciding to pull out, and I kind of made the comment,

(13:45):

…"look at all the great places we got to live, all the great things we got to do." And it's like, well, it was great for you Chris, but I don't know if you bothered to know us that we, it wasn't always our choice to get to go. We always made the best of it, but that you were, there was never an option that you weren't going to take that role to get the next level to be the guy willing to go take the sacrifice to move the family. Yeah. So again, those are just contemplations that come up after the fact. So when you reflect on that question of would you done it when you're younger, I've often thought, what if I hadn't taken some of those moves? What would be different now? Would we be regretting some of those things or we wouldn't be able to do? I don't know, hard to know. We'll know it the next life, not this one I guess.

Debra (14:35):

So when you were making the decision to jump off the corporate bandwagon and to go nonprofit and to go faith-based, was it a long journey of loss and then sort of redemption I guess, in your own career and making that decision? Or what was the process?

Chris (14:55):

No, I think that I was ready to go because again, one was, like I said, the cost side of things personally came with certain financial rewards that made it possible. So that wasn't a hard part of it, and I think most people would've the hardest decision about would this affect our lifestyle? It was funny when I said I was going to do this. So many people like, oh, that's so amazing. That's so great, but it is not the sacrifice. It sounds like I'm getting the better part of this deal going. But the thought process was probably harder for my wife because her identity and her, we had been stable in one place for almost 12 years in southeast Michigan. The kids had grown up. We had my work life even we called it the Covid blessing to some degree because we were together constantly. So part of the equation was as Covid started releasing its grip, I started, I'm back to London, I'm back to, and I remember getting on that first flight and January of 21, January 22, January 22, going back to London for meetings, the agency and stuff, and just feeling getting on the airplane, just the smell of the airplane knowing I'm going to wake up jet lagged and have to push through meetings the next day.

(16:19):

And I got on the phone, I called Stacy, I just can't do this. I just can't do that. Being home for the two, we were constantly together, even doing everything, I just can't flip that switch and go back. So the thinking process from that standpoint was really easy. The harder part was going into this nonprofit world because there's, the place that we're at is called Maranatha, and it's wonderful, it's an 88 acre conference retreat center that's on Lake Michigan. It's one of the most beautiful parts of the state, and it's been a place that people have gone to vacation with their families for like 88 years. Billy Graham was an intern there in the 1940s, Billy Ruth Graham, before he was Billy Graham. I mean, that's kind of the roots of this place. And we used to vacation with our kids there because when we were in Switzerland or DC or other places, and our family was in Michigan, we didn't really have a place to base.

(17:16):

So we would come and stay at this place, and eventually we bought a cottage there. So it was always our kind of safe place. That's where we just went. We had a place there for 10, 11 years. It was seasonal. Well, now you're there full time. Now you're the guy that's in charge and Christian or not, you put a bunch of people together who own property and have certain stakes and things, human nature shows up. So the fear was if we go there is our sweet safe spot going to become, we're kind of pushing all the chips in. If this doesn't work out, we're not just losing, Hey, you made a bold change of your career and walked away from a big job. Well, now we've lost the place that we used to love to go and was. So that was tough. And to be honest, it took almost a year, I think before I think my wife really had sort of really absorbed all of it.

(18:09):

And we had found our place and replanted, and it's just weird. We had replanted so many times early in my career, and then we were stable for 12, 13 years, and then we replanted again. You'd think it would come back to you, but it was a big deal doing that. But the other upside for us is our daughter is on this side of the state. She had met her husband at Maranatha during one of summer several years ago, and we've just had our first grandchild and she lives close by. So that kind of made the transition a little more logical for us as well. But yeah, it's just such the weird thing. It's just such a radically different world than being in the corporate world. And the amount of change I've needed to make and just how I lead, how I see things has been quite an evolution.

(18:57):

You don't think you're going to learn new things at this late part of your career, but I've had to repackage a whole lot of my approach dealing in a nonprofit world versus the corporate world. And probably another growing tension for me personally, particularly over the last five to seven years was that, and we're very much a conservative evangelical big tent. I mean, it's very kind of a big tent –Protestant -- but very much on more of the conservative evangelical sphere of things in that community. And that's where my faith has been raised. But for most of my career, my Christian faith has been never a challenge for me in my corporate roles. I would like to think I'm a better person and leader and person to be near and around because my faith would dictate. But then some of the things that has been coming up more on the social agendas and some of the things that are becoming very predominant in particularly the DE and I space, and I'm not alone in this, but you're getting to a point now where there are some real strong clashes.

(20:07):

And it used to be that you could fade back and not participate in certain things because you might find them to be in conflict with your faith. And everybody was okay with that. But that equation for senior people changed over the last four or five years. So it's like, why aren't you more proactively using your social media to talk about this issue? Or we should be more, why aren't you out there showing up at certain types of events and things? And that became much tougher for me to manage. And again, I started I think feeling more conviction or conflict over some things that as a matter of conscience, I was having a more challenging time embracing or at least endorsing with my own platform or credibility. And so that part of it, being in the faith world where you can openly be express who you are and that your faith is very much central to what you do, that's been quite wonderful.

(21:10):

And I don't mean that you were a different guy there than you are here, but in terms of being able to maybe more freely speak on and be, I couldn't as an officer in the company go to somebody who might be struggling and share Christ with them and not have fear that that might come back in a certain way that would be a problem for the company or a problem if somebody took offense at that. And those are compromises that come with life in the world versus life in the faith. But those were certainly more pronounced for me I think in these last five or six years than they had been in the past. So that part of it for me in this new environment's been quite liberating and enjoyable.

Debra (21:53):

Did your friendships change when you went from being corporate Chris to your new role?

Chris (22:02):

That's a great question. There are certain people that I have stayed close to in my professional world, but the busyness of life and things going kind of do that. But I would say we, I would say just as good relationships. I do think in, again, some of those relationships that you've had coming up are more bent on the fact that your colleagues and that's what is your common ground. And so when that common ground is gone, you lose some of that connectivity. I certainly have people that I've grown up with through automotive who I would consider to be great friends, journalists or other enthusiasts or people that you stay in contact with.

(22:51):

But I think, and to be honest, my bent in corporate life, I was very careful not to cross too many personal lines for a lot of reasons that I just think are important just in terms of what your role is for the company and that you're not making decisions or doing things that are unintentionally unfair because you've got a depth of relationship with somebody and you might be treating them differently. So I always try to keep a fairly collegial, professional sort of friendships with people versus what I would say more closer friendships. But there certainly are some people that I've stayed in touch with and definitely would want to as we go forward. Yeah.

Debra (23:46):

What has surprised you about this process?

Chris (23:52):

One is just how much I'm enjoying it because it's always the fear of the unknown. You might make this bold decision, get over the fence and figure out, oh my goodness, what have I done? What was I thinking? Now I've walked. And that was, I think also part of my wife's fear was that, that you've talked yourself into this and things are crazy because of covid and you're bored and you didn't get the other jobs that you thought you wanted, so you're just looking to take an off ramp. But it wasn't that at all. I mean, I think that's been just the opposite. I'm immensely challenged in this job intellectually, and it's just so many different circumstances and so many things to learn and do differently. I've never managed a conference retreat, banquet, hotel operation before. I've had to learn that we've got a 20 million capital campaign going on right now.

(24:51):

I've got to build five buildings. I've never done buildings before. We're doing, I'm the guy who's having to shepherd the community relative to just community together and spiritual issues. The other sidelight that my wife and I have is I'm just finishing my seminary degree. She just finished her master's degree and we do counseling. So we counsel together, we do marital counseling in the church, we do individual counseling with people. So that sidetrack has been developing also for me, which was drawing me away from professional life, more towards ministry life. And so that's now another part of our time that we spend doing things that has just been really fulfilling. It can be very draining being in that environment when you're always admired in other people's issues, trying to help them through it. But it's been wonderfully satisfying and enjoyable for us. So I think that I've liked it that much has been a surprise, I would say.

Debra (25:50):

Although what you're describing is what you and I did every single day. And you in particular, right?

Chris (25:57):

That's true. To a degree. It's true. Yeah. You're a counselor. Yeah. Everybody runs to the communications team when they're not sure what to do and how you're advising people to respond. Yeah, that's very true. For

Debra (26:10):

Folks who may not be called to a faith-based next chapter, but are looking to pivot, what are your recommendations? What are your learnings?

Chris (26:19):

Well, I think one is, I think the caution against knee jerk reactions. A lot of folks, I'll just use the ministry experience. I know just as many people that thought that were corporate people that thought, oh, wouldn't it be great to be in ministry and take, and they get over and they're just, they hate it. I'll use an analogy that we would see in our, which is we've seen it where we've had people go from journalism into pr, they were journalists, and they go into PR and they just find out they absolutely hate it. So I think if you're contemplating moving from one spear to another, let's call it more from a professional corporate existence into something that would be more expressive, hobby based, maybe you're going to go into small business, make sure you understand that cost counting, because everything's fraught with difficulties. Nobody's grass is necessarily greener.

(27:19):

And the commitments in those worlds when you make those changes, if you don't understand them, could overwhelm you quickly. And I've seen that when people have moved out of corporate life into buying a business. For instance, they bought a dealership or they became a franchisee of a business or something and they found out there's a level of risk and commitment was completely different than what they had experienced before and overwhelm. I think the other thing you have to really think through too is if you're married and the affected relationships around you in making those choices, if you're doing this, are you together? And like I say, I couldn't be happier right now where we are in our marriage, we're just in this amazingly sweet period where things have come together and it's worked out beautifully that way. But I shudder to think, had we stayed in one context, would that be the case if I was still slugging it out or if I had taken one of those new jobs and was happened to go 150% again.

(28:26):

And then another one I would just say is, do you have the financial stability side of things sorted out? Because again, that's probably the biggest unknown. You could sit down with your financial advisor and look at cashflow analysis and what you're going to need. But I mean, literally the minute I walked out of my job and alright, well we know what we're going to get at a much lower pace rate over here and what we're going to have to take out of the nest egg. I mean the markets went down 15% in June of 22. The housing market slowed way down interest rate and went to 7% on mortgages. And I'm like, did I think this through? And so yeah, that side of it I think needs to really be calculated.

Debra (29:25):

I would like to double click on the decision being in line with the people around you on this. I'm going to be talking with another guest here in a couple of weeks, but we go down a road and we have to take the job because we are raising kids and we have a mortgage. And so there's things that you do, you got to step up and you got to do 'em. And if we're very lucky at this point in our life, we put a little money away, we have some experience, we're healthy enough that we've got years in front of us. And so this could be the point where we do that thing that we must do. And so that could be a reckoning in relationships.

Chris (30:08):

You really got to work through that. Because it's not just you taking the ride and everybody else gets to readjust. And even again, I don't know that if Covid hadn't happened, I don't know that I'd be in this role because I think that gave us the confidence of being together. I think we used to joke, what's it going to be when a third of my life wasn't on the road getting tired of hearing me talk? Well, at least you're going off on a trip or something and you have a different change of perspective and absence makes the heart growth fonder or whatever. How would you be if you're together all the time when you've had this other way of living for most of your married life? So yeah, what's the environment? Are you moving? What's the time demands? Are you doing it together? I mean, I just can't explain how I would like to be able to put into words more eloquently what the drivers were in my heart, why I felt so passionate about being in one context for so long and then just literally kind of flipped over.

(31:12):

This isn't where I'm supposed to be. I would say that to me that's more God's leading in my life and just where he took us as a matter of conviction and my appetites and my desires changed in concert with this change of venue. But I think making sure that your spouse or your significant others and that same mindset and is willing to take that journey is really important. But yeah, the sense of aging, you're just kind of shocked that you look in the mirror one day and you're like, wait a minute, my brain still says 30 and I definitely don't look 30 anymore. And you spend your whole career being the up and comer and always on the ascent and then all of a sudden you're not. And that again, that affects every relationship you have and how you relate. So yeah, I think you have to think it through and talk it through with whoever's taken the journey with you for sure.

Debra (32:17):

But you have a choice in that. Either you can try to grab back that past glory and just kind of muscle your way through as best you can, or you can decide this is going to be a whole new chapter.

Chris (32:30):

Exactly. Right. And it's a different equation too about what's really what counts, what does getting that glory back mean? And so I think again, for the corporate ascent, you kind of got there and then you're like, this is it. And that's not uncommon. I've worked with guys out of private equity in my journey, guys that are worth nine figures and they feel like they're, they've just, boy, I just didn't get to the billionaire mark. You're just like, what in the world? What kind of a perverse mindset is that? But that would just tell you that money's not going to be the ultimate arbiter of whether you're successful or not.

(33:20):

We're here for a breath and then you're not. And what's going to have mattered and what's it going to be? And I believe we give an accountant when we're done. And for me it was just, yeah, I want to be in service to my Lord as much as I could be before departing. And I think that's true even in a professional life, if that's where God's called you, I think we need godly leaders in corporate life and others, but for us, this was being part of this community, being in this place, we felt led. And so that was the kind of all clicked together. But yeah, you're not going to get that lightning back. And I think that's where it gets sad and pursuing it, you're going to find it can become quite a sad thing to watch. And like I said, I've seen that movie before with others, I've been around.

Debra (34:14):

What would you recommend for folks how to begin the smallest step, not the giant one, but just what is that one thing that someone could do right now as they're contemplating something like this?

Chris (34:29):

I think you really need to ask yourself, the hard question is if this is all the time I have left, what is it that's going to matter? And what would be holding me back from pursuing that? Because doing nothing or staying status quo is absolutely valid, but is that nothing happens until somebody acts. And so no, and I believe this is true in every phase of life, nothing comes for free. So there's a certain amount of equity you've got to push onto the table to say, I'm going to make a change, and am I willing to do that? And is my spouse or other willing to do that? But man, I think once you get over that hump of making that decision, you take that first next step. And you don't have to solve it overnight. But I think you have to ask yourself the real tough questions. Is this where I really want to be? Is this how I want to finish? And what do I want it to look like when I look back and do my kids know me? Does my family know me? Can I look in the mirror and say, yeah, this, and again, coming more from the face, am I going to look in the face my Lord and say, here, well done, good and faithful servant, or am I going to hear I never knew you?

(35:47):

And so that's where I just think you got to ask yourself that tough question and not be afraid to ask that question.

Debra (35:57):

Chris, can anybody come and visit you?

Chris (36:02):

Sure, absolutely.

Debra (36:03):

Anyone can come and have a lovely time, anyone can come.

Chris (36:07):

Anyone wide open.

Debra (36:10):

Alright, well we're going to make sure that we have all the information on our site so that folks who want to, and you're open all year round, even in the chilly winter months.

Chris (36:20):

Yeah. So let me explain that real quick. So we function for 10 weeks of the summer. So basically from Memorial Day through Labor Day on a set program. So for three weeks in June, we host a special needs camp called Johnny and Friends, which are families with disabled children and disabled adults. And we give respite to the caregivers. And so we have people that come together and take care of the needs person and then we pamper and have fun for the families to be kind of released from their responsibilities. So that's most of June. And then every week through the summer, we have a different set of speakers that come in each week, preachers speakers, and we have free concerts. And so families come every different week. So most families, if they've come week five for years, their families probably grew up coming to week five. And that's the summer. And then for the rest of the year, we run, basically we're open for retreats and conferences and we have groups as small as three people. And we have groups as big as 300 people that come in and use a facility. And it's, like I said, it's a very big tent, Christian. We're not denominational, we're not tied to any one church or anything. So it's a pretty big tent for people to come in.

Debra (37:31):

I love it. Alright Chris. We'll make sure that everything is on the site. Great. Thank you so much.

Chris (37:37):

Thank you Debra. So good to talk to you. And I just wish you all the best in this wonderful new endeavor and

Debra (37:42):

To you,

Speaker 3 (37:44):

Take care.

Debra (37:45):

Thanks for listening to the Dareful Project. Please follow, like and leave a review. It really helps. We're on all your favorite platforms, Spotify, apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, iHeartRadio, audible, tune in Amazon Music, Stitcher, SoundCloud, and YouTube and Connect. You can email me at [email protected]. That's Debra, D-E-B-R-A at Dareful one. That's with the number one.com. Thanks for listening.