The Dareful Project

"Don't ever not be curious." That's Kris Evans' advice for tapping into our creative superpowers. Evans is an awarding winning makeup artist with experience in feature films, television, commercials, music videos, fashion editorial and advertising. She started her career in New York City working with Barbara Walters, Saturday Night Live, feature films and episodic television. Her film career spans more than 35 features and includes working with Bob Costas for every Olympics from 2002-2016.

Transcript:

Hey Dareful tribe—you're listening to one of your favorite episodes as an encore with artist Kris Evans. It originally posted in 2021 so a few updates: I talked with Kris this week and she says she's back to work now that the actor's strike is over. Look for her work in the TV show Big Sky for Disney and Francis Ford Coppola's new film Megalopolis. She also just finished a book, Naked Shadows…hopefully more on that in a future episode. And now, Kris Evans:

Debra Hotaling (00:04):

Hello and welcome to the Dareful Project. I'm Debra Hotaling and I'm joined today by Kris Evans. Kris has built a thriving career in Hollywood for more than 40 years in every aspect of the arts that you can imagine. Kris, you've done makeup design for film, for tv, for Broadway. You've done it all.

Kris Evans (00:25):

Yeah, I guess so. Yeah. Gosh, I lived in Paris. I did fashion. It's opera. I mean, I think I love it all. So anything that gave me the opportunity to do whatever, that would be challenging and interesting I took. So I never really said no to anything. I said yes to everything. And then once I said yes, I thought, oh my God. And then I figured it out.

Debra (00:52):

And it sounds like we were talking about the creative process and how really your superpower now is the history that you have not only in the industry, but in the arts in general, and just being a really curious woman for your whole life. And while everyone else is looking at TikTok and trying to come up with something new, you are looking at vogue from the 1960s or things that we all know. Tell me more about your creative process.

Kris (01:22):

Well, I just find that because the internet is so easy to get to by everyone, that everyone goes to the internet. So when you're thinking creatively, everyone goes to Instagram or everyone goes to TikTok or everyone goes to Facebook. I mean, let's not say everyone, but a lot of people do. And I noticed that when I am on a project or something, it's the first thing that people go to is the internet. And so for me, in order to seem fresh and not like I'm copying or not grabbing something from someone else per se, recently, I like to go back in time or in different areas where I don't think people will go. So that what I see will maybe inspire me to think of something I wouldn't have thought of had I been influenced by other people, if that makes sense.

Debra (02:16):

It totally makes sense. And I was thinking about this this morning, getting ready to chat with you that I still have in one of my little girlhood boxes where you keep all your rocks and special shells. I have pages that I tore out of Vogue and Women's Day and Better Homes and Gardens from the 1960s that someone would leave in a spare bedroom. They were so glamorous. They were so lovely. And I still go back and enjoy looking at those images.

Kris (02:47):

Well, it's so funny you say sixties and seventies because now for me, the eighties is period, and then is period for me. So when they say, oh, the eighties, I say, aha. And then I bring in a picture of me in the eighties, blonde, bleached blonde, living in Paris, and they go, wow, who's that? Yeah, that would be me.

Kris (03:13):

And they go, my God, that's amazing. That's so creative. And I'm wearing a dress from the sixties, so it's kind of funny how everything look, what people say is that fashion repeats itself every seven years or history, receipt repeats itself every seven years. So everything has always been done. It's just what we decide to grab for us to think of. I just finished a show recently that's on HBO called Generations, and these are people in high school now, and it's present day, and they're very creative and they want to really be individuals. And so to look to see, to get that influence, they didn't want a lot of makeup. They didn't want that to be, but they wanted each person to have their own personality. So in order to see where the character is, you go back and you think how they would think if they were shopping. And so it helps to kind of have a history of pulling from things that they may know. They may shop at thrift stores and they may buy a sweater or something that's from the seventies or the eighties, that's design or whatever, but it's from a thrift store. So knowing that in the back of your head, because that's what I did, brings I think a freshness. A freshness to things that wouldn't necessarily have been there if I just would've gone to say Instagram.

Debra (04:36):

Where else do you go for inspiration?

Kris (04:39):

You know what? I hate to sound so glib, but just really everywhere. I mean, I'm always looking at artists. I'm always going to collections. I'm always, there's an artist at the LACMA right now that's kind of like a Hello Kitty, Ms. Kitty, that kind of Japan-y kind of bright colors. And so I'm looking at that. I look at, I loved Hemingway. I mean, believe it or not, there's a thing on Hemmingway now. I watched that and I watched the fashions of when it was in Cuba in the twenties and the thirties and the forties, and looking at him and how he dressed and just that period and the feel of it. And just anywhere I go outside flowers, colors, birds, I really love. I have a hummingbird feeder outside and I love to see the hummingbirds come and I look at the colors on their wings. I mean, I know this sounds crazy, but anywhere and everywhere I see things or different, I'm hooked on this one painter. I just discovered from an article in the Sunday New York Times. I go to the Wall Street Journal on Saturdays. They have an incredible fashion, a magazine, I think one of the best in the business. And so I'm flipping through that with what's current now. But then they're doing a thing on Halston, which is now going to be, I think on Netflix or Amazon. I did his makeup in the eighties. Oh,

Debra (06:12):

Okay. Because Ian McGregor is playing Halston.

Kris (06:17):

Yes. So to read about him and Liza Minnelli in Studio 54, hello. I was not there with Liza and Halston, but I was at Studio 54. I was there when they opened Limelight Grace Jones. I mean, these are things that I think personally, someone my age brings to the table where if you're working on Halston, and I did his JCPenney ads on the Intrepid back in the eighties in New York City. So that's history.

Debra (06:47):

Wait, we need to talk more about this. I mean, first of all, Halston, I love the documentary. If folks haven't seen that, it's great. That's great. When we used to do airplane rides, remember back in the day where you'd be able to watch movies. That was my favorite and his attention to detail of women's bodies, how he loved how everything just kind of hung and how beautiful he could make everyone. Tell us more about working.

Kris (07:14):

Well, I mean, listen, I only did his makeup for a press junket for photos. So I never did his shows. I did other shows. I did Calvin Klein and I did Perry Ellis, and I did, I never got to do Halston, unfortunately. But I worked with the models that he worked with Pat Cleveland and those guys. He was just so elegant. His office was incredible. I mean a showroom, it was next to the St. Patrick's Cathedral in New York City and on a high floor, and it was all white and just huge. And he was so elegant, and I remember was dressed all in white or he'd be dressed all in black, and he always had these beautiful long fingers and smoking cigarettes and just so elegant. And it was so lovely. It was so nice. And so then when I did the JC Pennies, that was a thing that everybody thought, oh my God, how dare he do this?

Kris (08:08):

Meanwhile, he was one of the first ones to kind of sell his name to go. And then everybody else started jumping on the bandwagon to where they started then selling eyeglasses and Tom Ford and all these guys started doing all this other, Holston was one of the first, but he was kind criticized for unquote selling himself to JC Penney's, but it was a whole commercial with the stuff that he had designed on the Intrepid. So it was this wild shoot, and he was there, not a lot, but he was there. There was an advertising agency and so forth and so on. But I just remember him being really kind and very elegant. And of course, his clothes. I mean, look at Diane Von Furstenberg. Her dresses are coming back in style now. The rap dresses that made her so fat, so famous. Look at Norma Kamali. I did some stuff for her in New York City when she did all the sweatshirt dresses, and now that's all coming back. So they're all doing these interviews with Diane von Furstenberg or Norma Kamali. They're the new fashion icons now, and they were big in the eighties.

Debra (09:14):

No, and it's lovely to see these things coming back. First of all, to have these women entrepreneurs being properly recognized for the trailblazers that they are, right. And they're just so beautiful, the weight of their dresses, I can still feel how they felt on and how wonderful you felt in those clothes.

Kris (09:42):

And I will say really quickly, I remember walking down, it never made it to the New York Times, but there was a very famous photographer named Bill Cunningham, and he always rode around the streets of New York on his bike in his little jacket, his little Chinese jacket that he was, and his beret. It was always kind of an outfit. And he lived a very frugal life in Carnegie Hall. They had apartments there, and he lived among his file cabinets and a mattress on top of one of the file cabinets. Anyway, I had a Norma Kamala dress on with a sweater, and the Norma Kamala dress had horses on it, and it was flannel, and this was in the eighties, and I had a sweater on that had horses and jewelry, and I was walking down Madison Avenue, and this guy jumped off his bike and ran up to me and said, can I take your picture? I had no idea who he was. Sure. So he took my picture and he says, okay, bye.

Kris (10:25):

And realized later that it was Bill Cunningham, and he would go and take just pictures of the streets of New York, which to me is kind of a lost art. Now, there's a wonderful book of Bill Cunningham that, again, sometimes I flip through when I want to be creative and I want to see his photographs. Masterclass has this amazing thing on tv. Now, Annie Liebowitz, a whole thing that I worked with her for Vanity Fair. We did a shooting together to watch her work to page through her books. I mean, listen, I could spend weeks talking about Sarah Al talking about just talking about so many artists, makeup artists and painters and sculptors. I mean, rod and the colors that Van Gogh does and the impressionist. I mean, I could just go on and on and on, and that's where I get my creative ideas for what I want to do if I'm doing a show or a movie. It also depends on the director and who's with you and the creative things that you do together. Even commercials, I mean, anything you pull from anything,

Debra (11:38):

What you're saying. Now, also, the back and forth of that creative process reminds me of a story I heard about Ian McGregor and the Halston movie that he did for Netflix. And the person who, and I'm not remembering her name, who did all the clothing design, was also coaching him on how you would hold scissors, how you would pin garments, how you would drape. And he took it so to heart that during the early days of the pandemic, I hope I'm getting this story, he sewed a pair of trousers, which we know is really hard to do, first of all. And he just took her. I loved how he took her artistic spirit, her creativity, and he took it to heart and learned that task and that the work that's behind being creative that way and created this thing himself. And so I imagine as you're describing your creative life, that there's a lot of back and forth about the work ethic and learning from others as well.

Kris (12:45):

Oh, let me tell you, it is so important to be aware and to have a relationship with the costume designer. When you're working or when you're working, you're doing a photo shoot or something. The art director, I will tell you a really quick story. I did Once Upon A Time, the TV show. I did three seasons on that, and we did a whole thing of carnies, which were really bizarre. And Eduardo Castro was a costume designer for the first six seasons. His work is ridiculous. It's so beautiful. And we were talking one time and I said, carnies, they're so bizarre. I said, I don't want to do 'em like clowns. I want to do them. I want to have an idea. So he started showing me some of his designs, and we both looked at each other and I said, the film The Clowns Fellini.

Kris (13:35):

He goes, oh my God, yes. Oh my God, how great is that? Let's look at that. And the whole thing started from Fellini, the clowns. So we did all the hair and the makeup and the clothes to that, and I can't even tell you, they kept opening up on this one particular guy who had such an incredible face with a makeup I did that was this really surreal clown. And the wardrobe that Eduardo did that would've never, I think even don't even think of would've happened had we not gone Wait, what about that? Let's look at this. My point is, is that the experience that you bring with you, that you're constantly watching and constantly observing in certain things, that when you start your work, something sparks that in you and you mention it, and someone like Eduardo, who is also experienced and also understands it, jumps at it and goes, oh my gosh, that would be amazing.

Kris (14:33):

And then it's a team, and then you're excited. And so that every single project is new and different. I was doing the American cast for Phantom of the Opera, and they had of course done it in England, but when they came to the United States, they had the American cast. And so they had three originals there. But the whole cast, I went in and helped design for the makeup and so forth. And I was sitting at the preview and well, a gentleman came over and said, Kris, can I sit with you? We were kind of, they had us cut to the side and I looked over. It was one of the students I had had at the University of Cincinnati when I taught fashion design. And this guy had no idea how to sew. He couldn't even thread a needle cut to he's there, he comes and sits with me. He is now working for one of the top shops in New York City, and he has sewn two of the costumes for the opening of masquerade.

Debra (15:31):

Oh my gosh.

Kris (15:32):

And he sat with me, this was my student, and said, I can't even tell you how much I thank you for what you inspired in me to do this. I, and I don't say this to say, oh, we have no idea how we influence people's lives, because sometimes you never know. But that moment for me was one of the biggest highlights of my career, one of the biggest highlights of my career.

Debra (15:59):

That's amazing.

Kris (16:01):

Isn't that incredible? I mean, of all the things, and I still to this day, gosh, it's been 30 something years and we still are in contact. I'm still in contact with my students. I taught in 1978 and now they're designers. And one woman is this incredible costumer, and she does all the crazy wacko stuff for Conan. I mean, these are people I've known for years that are also so incredibly creative. I mean, she did all the crazy costumes of the Flintstones.

Kris (16:33):

I mean, this is the life that for me as an artist, my sister is an incredible artist. I come from a background where three out of the four kids were artists. My brother's a painter. My father's a graphic designer. My sister's an artist. She had a full scholarship. She had a master's degree in film. And so we are really lucky that I was surrounded by it. But we've always done that. I mean, as kids, my mom sent us to the art museum, do drawing and painting, and I think it's so important. I think we're losing it in our schools and we really need to keep it because I think especially in the Pandemic, if you think about how popular all this was, the arts were and the things that we were ordering and looking at and seeing where the arts were music and were paintings and were things that kept us going and kept us alive. So that's the creative part, I think is vital in life, regardless of what age you are.

Debra (17:37):

And I think as you say that I have, it feels like hunger to go to the LA County Museum of Art or the Getty, and not only look at Art Live, but would be with other people. I did not know how much I would miss just standing in a gallery with other people, whether or not we talked, but just being there physically.

Kris (18:01):

Well, LACMA just opened, and I'm a member of LACMA. I just opened. So I ordered tickets and we went there, and of course you have to do all the stuff in order to get there, but going in and they're renovating. So the old part of the museum is gone, but next to it is the, because I'm a member of the academy. The academy, so that museum is going to be opening September 30th, 2021. So that is going to be mind blowing what they're doing in that museum. And I agree with you. I mean, it is so important for us to keep connected. And so yes, those museums, to feel that energy to go and to see other people enjoying it is vital. But it's also the internet. Thank God we have that. But we also have books and we can't forget about books. The actual people laugh at me. I get the Wall Street Journal newspaper edition

Kris (19:03):

Still delivered to my house, and I cut out articles. I know that sounds crazy, but you forget about them on the internet. They go into some cyberspace or something. But I have files that I like to keep, and everybody laughs at me, but these magazines and these books that I get, I love them. Coffee table books. When Rosalie has a sale, it's deadly for me because these are the books, the Michelangelo and the Bill Cunningham, the one I got and stuff that I get. I just love the smell of them. I love, I don't know, that's just maybe me.

Debra (19:42):

No, no, I'm totally with you. And the Wall Street Journal, I am in solidarity with you. I also get the paper edition because I love wandering and as much as it's sort of laid out, and I read on my phone all the time too, I love cracking open the paper on Saturday and suddenly getting sucked into a book review that I had no idea I would want to read.

Kris (20:06):

Well, and the Sunday New York Times, I also get, and the thing is, what's really interesting is that when you get the style section, they don't online, you don't see the ads. But when I'm paging through the style section of the Sunday New York Times, and I see the ads for Prada or whatever, yes, you see them at other things, but when you see that in print or you see it in a magazine, I can't tell you how many tear sheets I've pulled. When I was first doing a TV show that I did, I went in and I took three characters that I thought of, and I pulled tear sheets for each one of those characters. And they were actual tear sheet tear sheets. And I came in and I talked to each one of the actresses. One of them opened it up and she looked at the tear sheet.

Kris (20:52):

She goes, yep, love that. Yeah, love that. Yeah, that's good. Now, these are physical tear sheets, right? Tear sheets from the magazine into the actual paper. Yeah, that's good. That's good. Can I take this over to this person and show this person right now? So they take over the file. Yep. Love that. Love that. So I would take these photographs that I pulled and we'd do these feel, and these looks for this, and I put it up on the mirror. So what they come in, that photograph was up on the mirror for them to look at, to get a feel of what they saw. It's not the same as with a computer.

Kris (21:26):

And so it inspired them as well to put themselves, I'm always, in fact, sometimes I'll text one of the characters that I worked with, one of the actors I worked on generation, he's great. And I'll say to him, oh, the Wall Street Journal men's section is out this Saturday. And he'll go, oh, great. I'll go get it. He's in his, I think late twenties, but I've got him hooked on this magazine of, and he's a total techie. So I just think that the younger and the quote unquote, I call them, the more mature generation, have so much to learn from each other that we really need to embrace what each other knows they teach me, but I teach them. And that's what I love about it, is the communication between the two of us. And I think sometimes now what happens is the more mature ideas are dismissed as old fashioned. But I think what we're finding, especially in this past year, that sometimes we can embrace that and that can make us feel more secure.

Debra (22:34):

I think also, I think that we take ourselves for granted a little bit our history. Sometimes I'll think, oh my God, you didn't live in 1983 when everyone was wearing funny little headbands or just whatever that thing is. I always assume that everyone has lived my life and remembers everything. And when you go back and talk about, well, here's what we used to do, or this is what we wore, or my gosh, look at this thing. I'm always sort of surprised that I have this knowledge.

Kris (23:07):

And here's the thing too is with the knowledge, my master's degree is in costume design. So everyone said to me, why didn't you go into costume design? You know what I felt like I wanted to have more hands on. I mean, costume designers are amazing, and they sketch and they do, but you hand it off to someone else. And I really love the kind of, because a painter, and I'm a sculptor, so I love the actual physical thing of doing the face and painting the face and doing the hair and styling. It was a hands-on thing. But I will tell you, and I taught costume history and costume design for eight years in universities design. And so in that knowledge of then going on, and for instance, like my friend Eduardo or Julian Markowski who does all the Marvel movies now, she's a friend of mine.

Kris (23:54):

I've done two or three movies with her. She's another one. Fantastic. Because of my knowledge in the history of costume, when they see a period of clothing to me, I know exactly what they're talking about. So we cut. It's like the Cliff Notes, if anybody remembers what Cliff Notes are, we cut to all the other stuff and we're on the same page very quickly. And they feel that you understand. And so immediately there's a relationship that you may not have if you didn't know that. They also know that they feel that you're in their corner and that you're working with them as a collaboration, that it's not a we'll do hair or we'll do makeup or we'll do wardrobe or costumes. But it is truly a combination, which as you well know in a movie is vital. I mean, look at Halston. If you didn't have the hair, you didn't have the makeup, you didn't have the wardrobe, you had one but not the other. That's not Halston. I mean, we could go on and on with all the different styles. And there's a TV show called Euphoria, which is the latest hottest thing now where the makeup is incredible and all that. But if you took that away, would it be the same show? No. And so that's how people relate to it. So all of this is a really visual thing.

Kris (25:17):

I can't wait to go into the movie theaters again and see the films on the big screen. I mean, to judge, because I judge for the Oscars, obviously, because in the academy, so to try to see these films on, I try to get as big a computer screen as I can, but it's still a computer. It's not the movie theater with the sound. I mean things like Mulan, which was a beautiful film. I mean even Nomad Land. To see that scope, even as simple as it was to see it Minne, just to see the lovely scope of it. Pinocchio, which is one of the most spectacular films in years, that Italian film, that it is actually live action. And the man who did all of the effects, makeup effects, which are out of this world, very little, CGI, which is the computer generated, most of it was prosthetic work, which is just mind blowing. And he talked about what they did and the artists that they saw and how they talked to each other and how they talked to director and the collaboration. And it's so vital. And what's exciting about it is that teamwork that where you feel like you're kind of a part of it, it's kind of nice to watch a movie that you're part of.

Debra (26:36):

Do you think that theaters are going to survive? Please say yes.

Kris (26:40):

Yeah, I think they will. And I'll tell you why. I think people are longing to get back together again, regardless of whether they're eating popcorn or you think, oh God, please, all the stuff that we used to make us crazy when you go to movie theaters, right? I was lucky I would go to the academy where there's no popcorn allowed and the beautiful movie screen in the gorgeous Academy theater where everybody just watched the movie. But I think, I mean, I jokingly say that, but I think everyone going to the movies, I think the laughter that you hear when people laugh or when you hear the collective brings more of a visceral feel to what you're watching when you're watching it with other people than when you're watching it in your house. If you pause it or you don't get the same kind of flow, it's not the same kind of experience, I think. But then again, I've been in that business for 40 years, so I'm such a theater geek and such a film geek. I mean, listen, I bought tickets to Hamilton three times and they were canceled three times because of the pandemic.

Debra (27:48):

Oh my gosh.

Kris (27:49):

And I'm still determined to see Hamilton on stage because there's nothing like it. There's nothing like live theater. There's nothing like

Debra (27:58):

Music Man, Hugh Jackman. It's got to happen.

Kris (28:01):

God. It's Sutton Foster,

Debra (28:03):

Right?

Kris (28:04):

Oh my God. In fact, I did a pilot called God Hollywood that was so great about the 1970s Hollywood, and it was written and produced Ted Griffith by Sutton Foster's husband. I said to him, I'm such a groupie about your wife. And he just looked at me because a lot of people that are in film that don't do Broadway, don't really know the kind of Broadway people, but I'm such a Broadway person. I mean, I also did Miss Saigon on Broadway.

Debra (28:30):

Oh my gosh.

Kris (28:31):

And Leah Solano, what a voice. And then 30 years later worked with Jonathan Price who won the Tony for Ms. Saigon, who played the engineer. And so talking to him about it again, I brought in programs from it, and he's paging through. He's very funny. He's a very funny guy. And so I don't know if everyone knows Jonathan Price was nominated, I think last year with Anthony Hopkins for the Pope. He was one of the popes. He's an incredible actor stage as well as screen. And he was paging through the booklet I was bringing. Oh yes, I went to college with him and oh, yes I did. It's just that kind of connection when you work with them and the stories that you have, it's just a beautiful creatively collection to bring to the table when you're doing your work. So I mean, it was such a lovely experience for me to work with him again.

Debra (29:27):

Well, building out on what we're talking about, what you're talking about here, you've had enormous success. And there was something you said to me that really resonated. And I've been thinking a lot about, you said, success isn't what you've done in the past. It's what you're doing now. And you get to a certain point in your life and in your career, and you know what success feels like and it feels good, and it's sometimes hard to try again, something new or be a beginner because we don't want the bad feelings. We only want the good feelings. And so there's a way that we can hibernate in our past success and not try something new and fail because we just love to wrap ourselves in that fluffy blanket of past success. And you're not allowing yourself to do that. Talk a little, teach me about courage and creativity.

Kris (30:20):

Well, I think the number one, for me personally in getting older, a thing that I always have to be aware of is fear, afraid of failing. Because especially now, everything is so upfront. It's instantaneous on the computer, it's instantaneous on the web. So if you mess up, it's fast. It's a Facebook, it's an Instagram people there. So everyone's afraid to push forward for fear of failing and then being talked about and then your career. And so I think for me personally, I always want to be challenged. And there's certain things that I can do and I'm very comfortable with because I've done them for a long time. I will say I'm lucky in what I do is because every job I do is different. It may be the same, for instance, if I'm doing a film or TV show or something, yes, in running the show is kind of the same if you department head, there's certain things that you do.

Kris (31:30):

However, because of the pandemic, everything has changed. And let me tell you, technically just doing the paperwork is now all online where it used to be paper. So if you're not savvy in that, the fear of coming in and not knowing that, where then they will view you as being a dinosaur because you don't know technically how to go online and do your paperwork and go online and do your timecard. All these little things that you don't think about is challenging, and you don't want to appear to look like you are not up to stuff snuff for right now. So that, but also creatively, you don't want them to think of you as being in the past. So you have to be careful that when you use your creativity of the past, you're bringing it to the present and possibly the future that it may look like this.

Kris (32:21):

Which brings me back to I am an information junkie. It keeps my mind fresh. I'm constantly reading. I get subscriptions to a lot of things. And I'm lucky because then I get the Hollywood reporter and I get the variety and I get all of those things which page through, and I can read all of that within the film business. But I also get, like I said, the Wall Street Journal, and I get the New York Sunday Times and I read them, and I find a lot of things going on in the world which keeps me fresh and current so that when a writer talks to me about something or there is a present day of what's happening now, the TikTok and you kind of know the background of TikTok and it's a Chinese company. And when Trump did he, it's all that kind of silly stuff that is conversation that you're part of the conversation in the present with everyone you're working with.

Kris (33:19):

So they don't think of you as the past. They think of you as right now, regardless of what you look like or how old you are. Now, I will also say it is very important to keep yourself healthy. I've done yoga 40 years, 40 years, and I am in good shape. And there's certain things that happen. They just happen. It's how it is. But as far as where I am and how I keep myself and how I dress coming to work, because on a film set, you can be kind of comfortable. I come to work every day. I'm going to work. I am the department head, and I come to work knowing that I'm the head. So I don't come in sweatpants and I don't come in schleppy clothes. I come dressed to work. That's a mindset. And I think that it's important regardless of what age you are or where you are in your life or your business, that your mindset has to be there and that you have to constantly aware, be aware of moment to moment to moment. And I think the moment we lose that is when we start unquote getting older, if that makes sense.

Debra (34:39):

It does make sense. It feels so soft and cozy to go back into the things that we're good at.

Kris (34:45):

Sure.

Debra (34:46):

We really have to decide that we're going to do something hard and we're going to fail and that, and we're just going to be present even in those feelings of inadequacy and painful learning.

Kris (34:58):

Well, and also what happens is, is that because let's really be blunt here, there are a lot of people losing their jobs who are older, fifties, sixties, where they thought this was going to be their life, and now it's not that they're being hired, they're being retired to bring in the younger set who for whatever reason, either they didn't keep up with technology or they did, but now the younger is less expensive because it's a business, let's face it, that we really even more so have to be aware and we have to keep up with what is current. And it's not easy to learn all that stuff technically. And to be honest with you, as an artist, I'm not interested in learning all that computerized stuff, but I have to because that's part of the job now. And if you want to stay current in where you are in the job, you have to embrace what's happening now, whether you like it or not. And again, the fear you have to embrace. Now, I'm not saying this is easy, and I'm not saying it gets easier as you get older it, it gets more challenging, but it also to me is more, I find more exciting when I know that I'm still able to step up to the plate and pull it off.

Debra (36:30):

That's right.

Kris (36:32):

And I'll say very proudly, I am 66 years old, and I was working with actors and actresses that were in their twenties and their thirties. They were amazing. And I learned from them and they learned from me, and I kept up with them every moment. And I made sure that I was on the same page all the time because it was important to me. And I adored them. They were so wonderful and so smart and funny, and they gave me that feeling of youth, and I gave them the feeling of experience. And there was one of the actors that I work with come in and go, what about this? And I go, okay, yeah, we can do that, but I'm just telling you from experience, blah, blah, blah. And they would stop and go, oh yeah, you're right. I didn't think about that. Okay, let's try this. So we can embrace each other. We don't need to think that each person is either too young or over the hill. I think we have to be really careful on that because we're losing so much if we don't listen.

Debra (37:40):

And I wonder also if a lot of that's inside our own heads.

Kris (37:44):

Absolutely. With out the monkey mind, which is why meditation now, again, I am not a great meditator. I meditate, but I'm not good because my mind never stops. I have one of those monkey minds that just continues and continues. I have a hard time sleeping. I do okay. In the film business, the hours are always crazy. So you're always going to work at five in the morning on a Monday and wrapping at 6:00 AM on a Saturday. I mean, it's just so your body kind of is all over the place. That's the way it is now. So that can be challenging, but I also know that it's very important for me to keep my mind sharp. And it becomes more and more difficult sometimes. And it's easy, like you say, to kind of settle back to what's comfortable. But right now, what's comfortable, it's not happening right now.

Kris (38:47):

The world is changing and it is changing at a very rapid pace. And so I'm not saying all of this is easy, but the payoff is pretty great because you are still aware, and I love these, I love Grandma Moses who started painting at 77. I think that's pretty incredible. And we could go on with the artists, we can go on with the artists who are older or whatever, and they started, or actresses or actors who became famous or designers or whatever, and they brought stuff to the page that we didn't think about that we thought were old fashioned, that are now in style that feels so fresh. So again,

Debra (39:36):

So before we leave each other, this is a two part question, which is what advice would you give your past self and what advice will your future self give you today?

Kris (39:50):

Well, it's really easy to give advice to your past self because it's past. Someone once said to me, be careful to constantly look in the rear view mirror of life because it's behind you, and if you're going to get anywhere, you really do have to look forward. So my past self, I just wish I would've believed in myself more. I wish I wouldn't have listened to so many people tell me how it should be, that I would've really listened to the voice inside me and to my gut every time I didn't listen to my gut. Now, there were times in my past life that were out of my control, but I lingered too long in it being out of my control, and I should have realized, okay, for whatever reason, you need to move on. And so that may have helped me. I have to say though, I feel really lucky because I am from Ohio, so what I've seen and what I did, I'm pretty proud of myself.

Kris (41:00):

I really have to say, and I don't say that in any kind of dismissive way or egotistical way. I worked really hard and I've been around the world, so I've been really lucky. My future self is to just keep moving and to constantly learn and to not stop. Sometimes I'll take the break and I'll take a breath and some things will slow me down, but I don't want to ever not be curious. I don't want to ever stop learning and enjoying, and if I see something beautiful, it makes me cry. Just thinking about it now, I never want to lose that vulnerability because to me, that's life. That's what keeps you creative, and that's what keeps you alive. The moment you don't have that is the moment. Yeah, it's time. I think that's just me,

Debra (41:53):

And I think I would love to share in the show notes, I have this reading list now from just our discussion. I want everyone of our tribe here to be looking at Bill Cunningham, if you don't already know his beautiful work and his life, and we'll put our heads together on some other things that we'd like to share.

Kris (42:14):

I could give you a list that would, I mean, forget about it years. You could. I mean, I am such a book junkie. I have so many great, beautiful books that I could recommend. Definitely.

Debra (42:23):

Perfect. Well, we will do that. Well, Kris, thank you so much for joining today. We're going to have to come back and do 2.0 of this because it seems like we have a lot more to cover, and in the show notes, we'll get it started and maybe we can have a bigger conversation about, we'll start a reading assignments.

Kris (42:42):

You know what, I would love that just because look at all these book clubs that people get together and they discuss things and just, I did a webinar really quickly and they said, read 20 pages a day, just 20 pages a day. You'll learn, you'll read 30 books a year, 20 pages a day, even to just browse through them. So there you go. Okay. Thanks so much. Such a pleasure and such an honor. Thank you so much for asking

Debra (43:11):

Me. Thank you so much. So much fun today.

Kris (43:15):

Okay. Thank you. Take care.

Debra (43:18):

Thank you for listening to the Dareful Project. It really helps us grow our tribe. When you like and share and subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or Audible or wherever you enjoy podcasts, that really helps us to be able to grow what we're doing here. You can also visit us at the dareful website, the dareful project.com. There you can sign up for our weekly newsletter, and that's another way where we can keep you posted on upcoming podcasts and adventures that we're going to be curating over the coming months. And always, I would love it if you would talk to me. I'm Debra Hotaling, and you can reach me at Debra at Dareful one. That's D-E-B-R-A at dareful. Then the number one.com. Thanks for listening.

Remember that scene in Pretty Woman where Julia Roberts tries to buy a new dress and no one will take her money? That's how it feels to be a 50+ consumer.

Then there's Caddis. CEO and Founder Tim Parr says it's a mission disguised as an eyewear company: "Get Older. Own It. See Stuff." And we totally believe it. Who else would have the cajónes to quote Miss Piggy, describe one of their eyeglass styles as a "dab of Harvey Wallbanger" (when was the last time you ordered one of those?) and embrace cranky online reviews in their advertising?

Listen to how Parr and his team are breaking all the rules in a completely awesome way.

Here's Caddis

And here's the nonprofit it helps support: Caddis donates a portion of gross revenue to music education programs via Music Farming. Learn more here.

Transcript:

Debra Hotaling: Hello and welcome to the Dareful Project. I'm Debra Hotaling. So you know that scene in Pretty Woman where Julia Roberts has this handful of money and no one will take it so that she can buy a dress. That's how I feel as a consumer being over 50. Either I am completely invisible or they somehow think that the only thing I want to do is walk down a beach and wear a little soft knitted sweater. But then there's Caddis. Caddis says it's a mission disguised as an eyewear company, and that feels completely true to me. And joining us today is the CEO and Founder Tim Parr, who's going to talk to us about how they are breaking stuff and having way too much fun for a brand and how they got there. Tim, welcome.

Tim Parr: Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Debra: So if you don't mind, I would like to start by reading the language that's on the back of the box. Amazing. So this is what it says, folks. It says this is for people who are not in the long process of giving up. It has everything to do with age, but nothing to do with your job, your gender, or whether you live in Orange County or Hazard County. It has to do with being who you are and owning it. Tim, where did that come from?

Tim: That was just a late night. The bottom of this box is all white, and I hate that and I want to put something on the bottom of that.

Debra: Come on. It's more than that though.

Tim: I know. That actually came before we were even on a mission. So prior to that being written, we were just, and we're just an eyewear company looking for money and we hadn't even shipped anything yet because we had no investors. We didn't have anything. So yeah, someone was talking just the night before about how fifties and new forties, sixties and new fifties I, I don't get it. And if this is going to be a lifestyle brand, you have to be authentic in order to be a lifestyle brand. And I don't understand this whole position on age and reading glasses. There's no better product about it to have a conversation about age than reading glasses. But at the time that I wrote that, it was a subconscious thing. And then I had someone read that to me who didn't like it, a potential investor, and she said, you can't do that.

Debra: Wait, talk to me more about that because that feels exactly true how those conversations would go.

Tim: And I asked her, well, why can't I do that? And they said, no one wants to believe that they're the age that they actually are. And everyone wants to think that they're 15 years younger. And that was the end of the meeting. And I had to pack up my things and walk down three, five flights of stairs to the sidewalk. And when I hit the sidewalk, that's when it hit me. Oh my God, we're actually in the age business. We're not in the eyewear business. We're in the age business. And that's when everything shifted.

Debra: And what was the thinking beyond that? Because I know from other entrepreneur friends, when you go back and you tell the origin story, it sounds like, of course that was obvious, but at the time you're like, I am all by myself here and every force is telling me that this is a ridiculous idea.

Tim: Well, we didn't have our why prior to that moment, and every brand needs a why. If you don't have a why, then you're just making stuff. And if you're just making stuff, I don't care. It's not enough to get me out of bed. So it was at that moment that it was, oh my God, now we have a why and it's David and Goliath. It's all these things that we need in order to have to be propelled forward.

Debra: And then what happened after that?

Tim: I was running down the street and I called up, I had at the time probably four co-founders and I was calling 'em each up. And I told them, this is a pivot almost of sorts. This whole idea that people are afraid of their age is exactly what this whole brand is going to be about. And I got a mixed bag of results of I don't know about that and two sounds good to me. Let's go. So it was quite the thing. It was like six years ago before the age conversation had entered somewhat a pop culture of where it is today. So it was really new and different and it felt right because it was such a taboo subject. It's less taboo today, but back then it felt really, I guess taboo is the best way to put it.

Debra: Yeah. I remember in a past life sitting with marketing colleagues after sitting through a terrible marketing pitch where the over 50 folks, we were told that they were sad and the whole marketing pitch was going to be, we're going to make 'em happy again. I'm like, I just went surfing to Costa Rica. I am not sad at all. I've got money, I've got some time, and I got to get some stuff done here. And so I went back to my marketing colleague and I said, where's the data on this? What is it? Where are you getting the fact that I really want a 20 year old face telling me how I should feel? And he's like, oh, everybody knows that. Plus I would get killed in my own career if I decided that I was going to start representing over 50 folks. It just felt like this giant wall and even talking about it, to your point, that it was an absolute taboo.

Tim: Yep, yep. It's so ingrained in American culture, which makes it great. And having been born and raised on eighties punk rock and the rest of it, it felt in board sport culture, it was so familiar. Everyone's going this way, thinks this way, alright, we're going to go that way and stir the pot that way.

Debra: Was it easier to find money once you pivoted that way and found your why?

Tim: Yes.

Debra: That's interesting.

Tim: Yes, because at that point people understood the market originally before that, everyone brought up Warby Parker. They would say, well, Warby Parker does this. I go, no, they don't. Our original position was reading glasses and Warby does reading glasses, but it's an afterthought and it's a millennial brand and this is for people over 45 or 40 and you can't be all things to all people. So give them that younger demographic and we'll take everyone over 40.

Debra: And you guys are so true to that. I want to read the entire thing I have here, but here's an example, folks, these terrific aviators and the description on the aviators is these classic wire frame aviators or throwing it back to the days of doing fun stuff without helmets, seat belts or sunscreen. And I cannot believe that you got a lawyer to sign off on that.

Tim: There's a few things that my cell phone would ring off the hook with attorneys that I probably shouldn't get into. But yeah, I got some great attorneys.

Debra: And once you got out into the wild with this, was it a hit right away or did you have to feel your way through to your voice and find the audience?

Tim: So there's two ways to answer that. One way with the product, I feel it was a direct hit, right? People at the right time with the right stuff at the right price. So I feel in that regard, it was a direct hit and then started to pick up on the brand position. And I think all brands always are feeling their way through culture. So we may have started off a certain way, but even next week we'll be doing things a little bit differently than we did last month. And that's because brands are organic and we have to change with them and whatever our audiences are doing.

Debra: Your motto is get older, own it, see stuff. What has surprised you about the journey of that?

Tim: Oh man, so much has surprised me. I'm surprised at how clear people understand what we're doing. That actually surprises me because as brand people, marketers, however you want to put it, product manufacturer or product designers, all we can do is send messages out and once we send them out, we have no control over them. So it's perceptions and what they're going to do with it is really we're at the mercy at, and that's the way it always works and always has worked. So when the messages started to come back to us exactly how we wanted them to be, I was really surprised about that. People got it.

Debra: That must've been thrilling.

Tim: It was.

Debra: Because until that moment you're like, am I shouting out into the universe and is anything going to come back?

Tim: Right? That's right. And there's a part of me that's like, well, I don't care because it's the right thing to do regardless. I just knew it's the right thing to do and I don't mean right thing to do in order to make money. It's just the right thing to do. And so in some ways I protect myself against is this bad? Is it good, is it right, is it wrong? Because that can be a dark hole to go down. So having said that, the first week we were getting people taking selfies, and I'll never forget this woman in the Midwest somewhere bought a pair of Got 'em. And this was probably the first month of shipping product and being online, she just had the simple statement of, I guess being old is now cool. And honestly that's like, okay, I'm done. Month one, mission accomplished. And that was probably my biggest surprise. And then we've had really good, amazing people who have joined our mission, whether they be actors or activist or artist or fashion or music, asking how they can help. And they do help in a bunch of different ways. So that's always surprising and it's just a nice surprise. I guess I'll just leave it at that.

Debra: And it feels real in that way. There are so many brands you can see that they've plugged in. Here's our token person over a certain age and it just feels tired and condescending. But you guys, I can tell that you get juice from this. You are excited to have faces that are really badass, are beautiful, and are not just like, here's our token old person. I mean you guys are really, juiced is just the right word. I can tell that you guys are in the flow of something really exciting when you do this and it feels true with your partnerships. Who do you have? Bobby Brown, right?

Tim: Yeah, she's great.

Debra: And everything that you do feels true to that brand. I mean, how does that work on a day-to-day basis? I dunno. Tell me your day. How does that work?

Tim: I So how does it work? How does it You mean the authenticity C

Debra: Component? Yeah. Yeah.

Tim: It helps that we are the target demographic. I am not good enough. I mean I've done this my entire life, these types of things, but I am not good enough to sit in a room and lead teams on communicating or creating products for 18 to 25 year olds. I can't. So this is one of those rare opportunities where we can use 30 years of experience in brand and marketing and positioning to the same people. We were doing that 30 years ago in some of the similar ways and be authentic because we are the market, we are the industry that we're trying to talk to. So for us it's just conversations.

Debra: And your own journey on this, you were Patagonia, what were the experiences that sort of have culminated over your own career that you suddenly went, oh my God, I've got all of this, I now can do this other amazing thing. What have been those experiences that you've tapped in on?

Tim: Yeah, so I've had a bike company, clothing company consultancy. I worked at Patagonia. They're all in the same vein of action sports. And I mean you just learn along the way. And now it's challenging because now we're in a, I don't know if we're still in it, but we're coming in and out of e-commerce as being such a driving force and businesses. So it's been interesting to marry those old school tactics and communication strategies with new school marketing techniques. So I mean wired for brands, I intrinsically understand them or certain ones, I say them, not all of 'em. So in order to take those tenants that drives those feelings and emotions and thoughts that are embedded in things and then take that and try and weave it into online marketing has been new and different. Yeah, I mean I learned something new every day, to be honest still. And that's exciting.

Debra: What do you think brands, not Caddis, but other brands, what do they not get about our demographic?

Tim: They don't understand the three dimension characteristics of let's just call it our demographic because they don't think that we matter or they think that they already got us or that there's no point in investing in this demographic because you're going to Peter out in five years. So we might as well take that money and put it into someone 30 years old because then we'll have them for the next 20 instead of the next five. All that's being challenged at the moment. I remember sitting in big meetings and you'll have very distinct architecture of 18 to 25 year olds, 26 to 35 year olds, 35 to 44, and we'll do psychographics, we'll do demographics. We'll architect these people to the NS degree in order to understand behavior in, and then that drives product design, it drives marketing. And then I always remember 55 plus and in that group was always just defined by average household income.

Debra: It's like those old maps where it just, the ocean just kind of goes off the plane there, right?

Tim: It's a great analogy. Yeah's

Debra: 30 years though, but it would be the same as going baby and a 30 year old, kind of all the same thing.

Tim: And then the fact that a 45 year old or a 50 year old has different purchasing behaviors than a 60 year old, which is different than a 70 year old. And these people are relevant and they want to be talked to, they want to be communicated to because that helps them make purchasing choices that they're used to instead of everything stopping. And you're kind of left on your own because I mean, we're social animals, so we want brands to group people so we can talk to one another so we can make decisions together so we don't have to do all the work independently.

Debra: And you're the perfect brand that way. I got to admit I'm loyal to you and when I see somebody else wearing Caddis, I'm like, we're part of the same tribe. But you guys have done that. I get that right?

Tim: Yeah. And some of it is, it's subconscious for us, it's just how we know how to do it. And it worked. Everything lined up. So again, these are all things that we've known for 30 plus years and how Ashton Sports was created. Thrasher magazine, the birthplace of a lot was in that publication. So we just come from a time and a place that things were done a certain way and we just want that to continue as we age.

Debra: Well, you talking about skater culture, now this makes way more sense to me that I can't believe you guys did this. Alright folks. So in this brochure, they not only have all of the good reviews, they put the bad reviews in too. And there's a woman named Diane who only gave you two stars, man. It says just like mullets, these glasses were never cool. Why bring back ugly?

Debra: You put that in your brochure. I love that so much.

Tim: Yeah, that was fun.

Debra: I can't believe you did that either. But now I get it though, the skater culture, that totally makes sense to me now.

Tim: And yes, that's exactly correct. I had to fight a bit to get those in there and some people just wanted, let's just put two or three in there. I'm like, no, we're going to put as many good ones as we can find and we're not going to make 'em smaller and the good one's bigger. No, this is all just putting it on the table and it's a position of strength and it's defining who we are. And if we had a bunch of positive five star reviews, my mom can sit there and write those reviews and then we can put 'em in a catalog and we're good to go. That I never understood that. But if you put the collective and then people can make a choice.

Debra: Well, not only that, they want to believe, but I want to read them now. I don't want to read the five star reviews for sure you're going to do that, but I'm sort of remembering that you guys even did a little online ad campaign around this is our ugliest glasses, says Diane, one star. And you turned it around and you made it into, as you said, a strength. And I'm like, that's kind of how I feel right now in my life that I may not be pretty in the conventional way of what I was at 20, but there's still some strength to that sassiness. And so I don't think I've loved you more than what I saw those terrible reviews.

Tim: Well, what's funny is that when this idea started online on Instagram and I would pull all the terrible Instagram reviews and comments because the internet's an ugly place and these trolls just will show up anywhere. You could be Mother Teresa and I'm sure she's got trolls as well. I mean it's unbelievable. So I would put 'em up there and then like clockwork, you could set your watch and within minutes our people would come calling and just call them out about how wrong they are. And we get hundreds of comments of like, no, no, no, that's not right. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It was a cattle call and everyone would come and put a comment, like a positive comment, and it created a community for a brief moment.

Debra: Well you're reminding me of Tesla. Tesla fired their PR firm because they had the Tesla boys. You can't go into that community without and disrespect Tesla without somebody showing up and talking back to you online. It's a very tight community.

Tim: So people care, which is nice.

Debra: Yeah. So have there been other brands that have come to you going, how did you find these people that you call over 50? Look, they have money, they want to buy things. Are other brands coming and trying to understand more?

Tim: Yes, I think it's a short answer on that one. I think people are starting to realize that 45 to 65 is a great or whatever, 45 to 70, 45 to 75. It's a great customer.

Debra: In what way?

Tim: So the space is somewhat quiet, so it's not like the majority of consumer products are targeting them. So we can have an actual conversation with them without tons of noise. They are intelligent, they have seen a lot and they know a lot and we can just assume certain things with them and we can move forward with that understanding. So we're not lasting marketing messages to the general population, which is that doesn't do anyone any good, but we're not crafting a message for 18 to 25. We're not crafting a message for 30 to 40. We're crafting one message for a very focused group of people, which is not a small group of people

Debra: And keep me honest here, but I imagine that you actually pull a good number of that younger demographic.

Tim: We do, but we don't acknowledge it. So we will get Shopify data all the time. And I'm always amazed at how many people, let's call it like 25 to 40 are buying glasses. But we do nothing to promote that business. But if they wanted to buy glasses, that's great. And this is something that I learned from Yvonne Chenard who I got to work directly with at Patagonia. He knew damn well that the person that pays the bills was the guy going from Connecticut to Wall Street. Those people were buying a lot of clothing every day, and the person that was actually living out of their sleeping bag in Yosemite Valley was the benefactor of that. So you can sell things to a wide range of people, but the message and the focus is on a very distinct group.

Debra: Does it get any more complicated now that you're super successful?

Tim: I'll never consider myself super successful. So that solves that problem. Okay. Does it get more complicated? Yes, it does.

Debra: In what way?

Tim: In what way? I would just pin it on growth. Growth is an interesting concept and how you approach it and how you feel about it and the strategies that you put in place. I mean, it's fun, but it's harder. Yeah, it's harder. I mean you can just think when we had six styles and two or three clicks and you're done shopping kind of experience, it's a lot different than now. We have prescription, we do sunglasses. Everything just gets more complex the bigger you get.

Debra: You don't need to tell tales out of school on this, but would you consider expanding the brand to be other things outside of glasses?

Tim: Yeah. Yeah. So I'm a big fan of having the community drive what we do next. And one of the strongest things that I'm hearing back is how can Caddis be a platform for this community to move the model from products to platform? I'm pretty excited about platforms. What that means is that you have this for a gross word, let's call it a brand platform. We can do reading glasses, we can do prescription glasses, we can do sunglasses. How about if we do retreats, if we do media events and it kind of, what should we do? And I really listen to the masses and our customer base and we're hearing a lot of, we want in real life events and we want community and we have it. We just need to be a catalyst for people to gel together.

Debra: I love this. Could it be like Coachella for us? Could it be music?

Tim: Yeah, yeah. Actually our brand's big in the music. We actually have been, this is something that a lot of people don't know, but we've been giving a percentage of each product sale to music education. So yes, it could be all those things.

Debra: Or maybe surf camp.

Tim: Could be that too.

Debra: I love what you're saying here because that absolutely makes sense. And I think after Covid, I don't know about you, but I just don't want to do another, here we are talking on Zoom. I wish that we were in the room together because I'm really over zoom, I'm over online. I don't want to do another yoga class remote. I just want to sit with people. I will go see anybody speak because I just want to sit in a room with other humans and have an experience together. That's right. And finding other folks who are interesting to talk to.

Tim: So as we look at growth, that's what's going to drive the growth beyond the products that today

Debra: That feels true to the brand and also surprising. So that is super exciting. When should we start looking for some interesting things to drop?

Tim: Oh, that's a good question. Some form of it. Next year.

Debra: Okay, well next year's almost here. So

Tim: I know.

Debra: No stress.

Tim: No stress.

Debra: So for other folks who are thinking that they want to start something new again, part of your mantra here is that start the thing that you've been overtalking about. What's your advice for stopping, overthinking and starting to do the thing? How do you begin?

Tim: You begin. So the other side of the coin to action is fear. So most people when you talk to 'em about starting something new, they're really excited about it. But the thing that prevents that first step, all roads lead back to fear. And I think as soon as you know that and you can address it and you can say to yourself, okay, what am I so scared? So then you're not just blind to why you're not moving forward. You can jump straightforward to what am I scared of and how can I mitigate that? Or what do I need to do in order to manage that better? Because it's crippling me

Debra: And just saying it out loud SAPs it of some of its power. Right?

Tim: Totally. Totally. Because it sounds silly. And then when you get it out in the open, you realize that it starts to lose power over you. So that's always good.

Debra: Alright, well we're going to get started thinking about our fear and moving forward and owning it. So glad that you're in the world and I can't wait to find out what happens next.

Tim: Oh, thank you. Thank you. Appreciate that,

Debra: Tim. Thanks again. It's a fun one. Thanks again. Appreciate you.

Tim: Okay, thank you. Bye Debra.

Debra: Thanks for listening to the Dareful Project. Please follow like and leave a review. It really helps. We're on all your favorite platforms, Spotify, apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, iHeartRadio, audible. Tune in Amazon Music, Stitcher, SoundCloud, and YouTube and Connect. You can email me at [email protected]. That's Debra, D-E-B-R-A at Dareful one. That's with the number one.com. Thanks for listening.

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Ageist Founder David Stewart thought he was moving temporarily to Park City, Utah from Los Angeles. Four years later, he's still there. And he has done a lot of reflecting about what we gain and lose when we move somewhere new. Whether you're thinking about downsizing, starting new in an Italian village or chucking it all and RV'ing around the country, David has thoughts.

We also talk about Ageist's SuperAge quiz. Here's more on what it means to be a Dolphin, Fox or Owl. (See who you are by taking the quiz.)

Dolphin: Dolphins are playful and curious, enjoying life in moderation. They value health and wellness without being fanatical. Their SuperAge strength is their ability to relax, but they might overlook simple actions that could enhance their SuperAging journey.

Fox: Foxes are clever and adaptable, taking an active role in their wellness. They collaborate with practitioners to reach health goals. Their SuperAge strength lies in their curiosity and thoughtful investigation. However, they can be tripped up by contradictory information.

Owl: Owls are high achievers, gathering information to create a personal program. They are independent and mindful, striving to be the best version of themselves. Their SuperAge strength is their insight and drive to understand and improve. However, with all that info, they sometimes lose the plot.

And here's David's recent essay. Sign up for Ageist's weekly newsletter here.

My current situation is one of accidental transience. We left Los Angeles in early COVID for a smallish mountain town in Utah. Out of architectural obsession, we bought a 1982 townhouse in a ski resort with the idea we would renovate it and then rent it seasonally. This meant it could not be our "home" in the normal sense, as we couldn't have our personal stuff out if we were vacation renting it. This temporary solution has now been almost 4 years, much of which has been spent pondering exactly where we should live more permanently. Although I miss all the art and books and memories that are boxed in a storage unit, I miss them less and less every day. Not having them here means we have tremendous flexibility about where we can be: either here in the vacation rental or in New York, Los Angeles, or some other place. But it is also lonely, if that is the word for missing my things.

This is all a lot of heavy thinking around how we define ourselves, what gives us comfort, and where we find meaning. My friend Carlo has a rule: never live in the same place more than 3 years — it keeps the flow of new place-energy going. The downside is: it is very hard to plug in to a new community every 3 years then abandon it. Steven Meisel, the great Vogue photographer, once said he is not interested in having a retrospective of his considerable accomplishments, as it would force him to focus on the past and he is only interested in the future. My good friend Rob, about 5 years ago, sold his big house and moved to an apartment in Santa Monica. At this point, he still had a nice car, home furnishings, exercise gear, and the like. Since then, he has become basically nomadic, staying in various apartments around the world for a few months here and there. The car and the stuff are all gone. As he told me yesterday, he has never felt better or freer in his life. Rob is a very future facing guy. On the other end of the spectrum are a couple I know who bought a giant old house on a big property and have stocked it with all their lifetimes' accumulation of stuff. It feels homey, but the maintenance of it is a way of life.

I have chosen a life filled with variety: I love big cities and my big city friends while, at the same time, I love the mountains and my outdoorsy friends. What I really don't like is being bored. I once had a proper house, filled with my stuff. Each weekend was about Home Depot, the Garden Center, and other chores. Now I have an HOA, some of whom are at this very moment painting the outside of our unit, which allows me the mental space to be able to write this. When I was younger, I identified more with what I did and the stuff I had. Certain stuff still warms my heart, like some of the baby artifacts that my mom managed to hold onto from my very early toddler days. There is something warming about feeling the continuum of history. As we get a bit older, some people become the Marie Kondo editors of their lives, others become collectors. I feel somewhere in the middle: missing some things, but not wanting to become an indentured caretaker of them. Maybe home is where our things are?

Transcript:

Debra Hotaling (00:04):

Hello and welcome to the Dareful Project. I'm Debra Hotaling. We are talking today with Ageist Founder David Stewart, about a subject that I have had with all of my friends, and that is where do we live? Do we stay in our home? Do we downsize? Do we move to Europe or closer to the kids or chuck it all and get an RV and live off the grid and go explore the country? I don't know, every day it's a different solution and we're all talking about it. And then I read David's lovely essay in Ageist's weekly newsletter, which if you don't already, please sign up for it. It's brilliant. And the essay starts, my current situation is one of accidental transience. That's brilliant. And the whole essay is lovely, and David is going to tell us more. David, welcome.

David Stewart (00:57):

Thank you. It's great to be here, Debra.

Debra (00:59):

So how did you get where you are physically and spiritually? I guess there's so many layers to this.

David (01:09):

And they changed daily. So my accidental transient happened in March of Covid. So what happened was we were living, we had a loft in downtown Los Angeles in the Arts district. It was on the 10th floor. So we required taking an elevator, and I think it was about the middle of February. We have a good friend who works in high level medical community here for Intermountain Health. And she called us and she said, listen, this Covid thing, this is a real issue and you're going to have to think about leaving soon. And I said, oh, alright. She says, you've probably got about a month. Well, I think it was maybe two weeks later, she called me on a Wednesday and she says, you've got till the end of the week you need to leave. And I said, okay. And at this point, we were sort of living life in a hazmat suit because nobody knew what was going.

(02:09):

It was super scary. You had this potentially fatal, unknown airborne pathogen. You got an elevator, which putting those two things together, that doesn't sound like a good idea. And then we were going to the grocery store and masks and gloves and taking our Clorox and our vegetables. Nobody knew what was going on other than a lot of people were dying. And so my friend said, listen, they're going to shut things down. You need to leave. So I said, okay. And she lived here and she's married to my best friend who also lives here. And they had shut essentially the entire town of Park City down. There was no one here. And so we were able to rent a really lovely condo on the mountain for basically the utilities because there was no one here. And so when we arrived here, it was super freaky Debra.

(03:04):

It was like something out of a Stephen King plague movie. There were just no humans. There may be 10,000 units of housing in the area that I live. And once a week we'd see a light, we'd go, oh, there's a human over there where you'd see a car. It was just bizarre. And we stayed here, and then a few people sort of came back. And then what happened was we thought, well, this is actually really nice. Maybe we should think about this. And we became architecturally obsessed with a particular development of condos that were built in 1982. And we just thought, oh, these are so cool. And we sold our loft after the race riots. Remember that downtown la after that calmed down, we sold our loft and we were like, well, we're just going to wait for one of these to come out of the market.

(03:58):

And one did. And what happened was the poor people who sold it hired a dumb, dumb realtor who didn't put it on the park city MLS. They put it on the Salt Lake City, MLS. Nobody knew about it. And our realtor did. And he came in the market, he was like, full price here, now buy it. And he was like, well, I think you're overpaying by about $3,000 and we don't care. Just buy it. And so it's worth more than double that today. So it was like the deal of a lifetime. We spent a year rehabbing it. And so we were here, but it wasn't really an intentional thing. We just sort of were here. And then during Covid it was okay because nobody was traveling anywhere and everything was Zoom and it was super weird. But that's sort of changing. So last year, I think I skied 110 days last year, which is crazy.

(05:02):

But my current state of mind on this has changed. And I think I just want a lot, Debra. I just want a lot and I want living in the mountains and I want to be able to ski and I want to be around the animals. And it's so beautiful here. But on the other hand, this is, I'm going to sound like a bad mean person, but this is essentially a large retirement village. And people come here, they've made some money, they've come here and they sort of check out. They're not interested in building, creating, collaborating, making impact in the world. They've either already done that or they're never interested in that, or they just sort of want to be here and enjoy all the amazing outdoor stuff. And I realized, I was just in Los Angeles last week and I was around some really switched on people and I'm thinking, these are my people. I need to be around more of this. And I read you a quote that a friend of mine told me said, wow, I feel like Park City is a retirement village. This is like, I just made this discovery. And he was like, he says it's a retirement village. For those who made money in a professional sinkhole for those who fell for the idea they could continue to grow here. That's correct.

Debra (06:26):

Yikes.

David (06:27):

Yikes. So yeah, I know. Harsh, but correct. And I think that this, when thinking about where to live, you sort of want to think about what do you want? And when I lived in Manhattan for about 25 years and every weekend I was just fantasizing about how can I get out of here? Where can I go? I'm going to go to Hawaii this weekend. I'm going to go wherever because you can't, at least I couldn't do that. I was living on Canal Street. It was mental. And you just can't take that kind of intensity all the time when you get away. But then it's sort of this balance of if you want to have impact in the world, if you want to create something, you want to help people, you want to build something, you need people around you to be bouncing off ideas with, to inspire you, to inspire them to get new ideas. That's hard in place like this.

Debra (07:28):

And that's been the biggest argument I've heard for why Silicon Valley works. It's not tech big "T", it's just that they're really interesting people and you meet them in coffee houses or you overhear conversations or whatever that spark happens, right?

David (07:45):

That's right. That's real. And as much as I would like to poo p that just being in Manhattan and just walking around, just riding a subway, you can't help but not have that impact you, that things are different. I mean, so what's going on in the Middle East right now? I live in what is live in Utah, which is essentially a democratic socialist theocracy. It's run by the Mormon church and they're for the most part benevolent and it's fine. But that whole sort of thing that's being played out in the Middle East is also being played out in not combat way, but in places like New York or Los Angeles, other big cities, that stuff is going to be like front and center. It does not exist here. Zero. There's no, the only way I even know about it is I read about it or I talk to my friends in cities and they're like, wow, this is getting really weird here. I don't feel good here. But you don't get that here. So that's sort of the upside of being here. But there's also the flip of that, right? So I think you mentioned this idea of living in an rv.

(09:14):

The people I know who've done that, it's like, okay, after about month three they're like, can we sell this thing? What can we get for it?

Debra (09:27):

Exactly. But I find that with everybody. I had a friend who needed to go to Hawaii, loved it, whole life, saving up for it, and then actually moved to Maui. And after about a year went, I can't do this anymore. It's whatever. It's too far away, it's whatever. So I wonder at some point, is it just our brains just, we always want the thing we can't have? How do we figure out comfort and freedom and having things but not being tied down to things? Help me out, David, what do we do?

David (10:02):

Well, I don't think you figure it out. I think that your friend who went to Maui, who leaves Maui, will probably be grateful for the rest of their lives. They spent a year in Maui, they did this thing and it was like an awesome thing. But then it's done, right? It's like you have an itch, you scratch it. It doesn't itch anymore. Okay, great. I spent a year living in Paris. Would I do that again? No. Am I grateful that I did it? Yeah. Do I want to live full-time in another country again? No way. It's too hard. I have too many other things that I would rather do than that. And I think that one of the revelations I had this year, Debra, is that home is where your stuff is. Home is not where your family is. Home is not like all that stuff. No, no. It's where your stuff is. And stuff is important. And I think that we're in a time where people are experiences, not things count. Things are expressions of ourselves. Things give us comfort. People give us comfort. But it's also really nice to, I have my books, my art and everything. They've been packed up for four years because we've got this nutty vacation rental lifestyle that we live.

Debra (11:16):

Yeah, that's why I'm surprised that I'm hearing you say that because you've been living without, those things have been in storage.

David (11:22):

It sucks. What can I say? It's not the way I would choose to be, it's just for financial reasons. We rent this place in the winter because we live steps from a ski lift. So that just makes sense. But I have to read a lot, and this is a lot of people send me, I'm in a position where people send me stuff all the time to tests and see if it works. And it's nice to have a place for that. It's nice to look at a wall and have all these books and be like, oh yeah, that book, oh, I remember what that guy said. Oh yeah, that was really interesting. If I don't have that physical thing, I've been trying to use a Kindle and Kindle's really nice because you can, there's a lot of information in it and I think it has a place. But I think the physical things, there's value to this. And I think that I don't want the purpose of my life to be the custodian of my things either. I don't want. But on the other hand, seeing these things, having them around, there's value in that. It's not nothing.

Debra (12:44):

This is fascinating. I did not know our conversation was going to go this way. I thought you were going to totally Marie Kondo on me here. I thought that we were just going to be living light with our little backpack and lighting out.

David (12:55):

I mean, that works for some people. I think that editing is a good idea. Absolutely. I have in my closet now, I've got maybe four pairs of jeans and I've got maybe a dozen and three or four workout outfits and probably a lot more sneakers than I need. That's down. It's about, I dunno, a quarter of what I used to have. I don't really need the other things. What I find is certain things become a distraction. I find having too many clothes is a distraction for me that I look in there and it's like, now it's like, well, what do I need to wear today? Oh, I've got to hunt through these five things to find this other thing. So that becomes a time to bring on misconduct, get rid of the crap that's a distraction and irritation and annoyance that's in your way, that's sort of cluttering things up. Get rid of that stuff. But the other stuff, I like to wear nice things. I like to have to have my art. I like to have my books.

(14:14):

I don't want to get rid of all these things. They bring value to my life. But here I'm going to tell you another story. You can give me some advice on this because I'm trying to figure this out. 15 years ago, I opened, rented a storage container in Oxnard, California. Why Oxnard? Because I was living in Los Angeles and Oxnard is cooler because it's closer to the ocean. So you don't need a climate controlled thing. It doesn't get super hot there. And it was cheaper and we were sort of moving some stuff and I was transitioning out of being a photographer. So I have in there basically 35 years worth of negatives and prints and stuff that I originally was paying $80 a month for and is now 15 years later, $180 a month. And I was just there last weekend. It's one of the reasons I was in Los Angeles to sort of see what's in there, what am I going to do with it? And I thought, should I, I don't feel like I could throw it out.

Debra (15:12):

No, no, you can't do that.

David (15:14):

But I don't know what to do with it. So I just was just sort of paralyzed and I was like, well, okay, nice to know it's here. I'm going to leave now as far as I got, I couldn't figure out what the next course of action. I have nothing useful to do with any of it. But on the other hand, I just couldn't bring myself to just call it the dumpster. That just also didn't seem right. So I did nothing.

Debra (15:44):

You did. And how did you feel when you left? Was it okay to do nothing?

David (15:49):

Well, I felt a certain sort of satisfaction knowing what was in there and understanding if I want to move it out, okay, this is the volume of vehicle, I need to do this. But then I thought if I move it out, where does it go? I know place to put it, so I guess I'll just leave it here. I can't think of anything else to do with it. So I know that's a case of stuff owning me, but I have to just sort of make peace with that unless I'm willing to just get rid of it.

Debra (16:23):

Just sort of hurts my heart though. Could you give it though, to a university or someone or the Getty or something? Photography.

David (16:32):

I'm not that famous.

Debra (16:36):

But you bring up a good point of what we own and what owns us. And I think mean that feels right, what you described. I have similar, I have notes for a lot of stories. When I used to write for the LA Times, I kept my notes because even though they're just handwritten on yellow legal pads, those are the voices of some people who are no longer even on the earth and it feels wrong to throw away their words. And I know that that sounds, I don't know how, it doesn't seem logical, but I can't throw it away. And so they sit in legal boxes in my garage and they always will, sorry, kids, you're going to have to go through it.

David (17:18):

Right? That's sort of the next thing. So it's like, okay, at some point I'm probably, chances are I'm going to die. Survey says we die at some point. And so then there's this thing there. Is anyone going to be interested in what's in there? Maybe for a second. But then it's like they're going to be like, well, what are we going to do with this stuff? We have to, it's not in perpetuity. This mausoleum of David's photos and negatives lives on that doesn't make any sense.

Debra (17:53):

But as long as you're not doing DRE figurines or something, I think you could have someone, right?

David (18:01):

It's very well organized too. It's not like some crazy hoarder thing. And there's just boxes with labels and they're very nicely stacked. And if I wanted to find something in there and bring in a box cutter, I could find it. But

Debra (18:15):

Are you surprised that you're feeling this way now? If you could have interviewed four year back self, would you have known how you sort of netted out on where you're living and things?

David (18:30):

No, I wouldn't have the living thing. I thought when we came out here, I thought, oh my God, this is amazing. I can live out here and I can do my work. And there's Zoom and there's what we're doing right now. This is fantastic. But that's where I was then. And now that I've done this and I don't see myself ever never wanting to engage with nature the way that I do, but it's not, I've come to the realization that you need these other people around and these other people are not here. They're in other places. And so I need to spend more time in these other places so that I can be around these other people.

Debra (19:27):

And you bring up a good point that makes this even more interesting and complex is that we have to, when we're making decisions, at least when I'm making decisions about this, I'm thinking here I am now 65, healthy, got a lot of interesting stuff going on, but there's going to be a point where I might be differently abled. There might be other stuff going on. And so do I plan for that future as well? Or do I just bail on where I live and move somewhere else? It feels like a three-dimensional chess board.

David (20:03):

It's dynamic. So I think that I read this interesting article in the Wall Street Journal a couple of years ago about another one of my favorite delusions. The Forever Home.

Debra (20:15):

Yeah, yeah, let's talk about that.

David (20:18):

What people do is they'll come to a place like this and they get a piece of land and they're like, okay, we're going to build our forever home. And this becomes an all-encompassing activity for 2, 3, 4 years. And they build their thing and they're in it for a year. They sell it that we often think that we can project a place where we want to be. And I think some people can do that. I think some people do do that. I think some people live in the same house town their entire lives. But for a lot of us that doesn't work. And we come at it from the experience that we have from where we're at right now and trying to project that into the future. And we do the best we can. But where we are five or six years down the road or 10 years down the road, we're in a very different place and the world is in a different place. And so thankfully we have brains. And the nice thing about a brain is we can change our minds and we say, oh, well that was good. I did that. Okay, so now I need to do something else.

(21:38):

I think we as humans, I was listening to a guy who joined me on a talk last week talking about, it's like a financial thing. So how people are really bad at predicting their own lifespan and people who are not very healthy predict a shorter lifespan and they actually live much longer than they think they will be. And people who are very healthy over index on that. So they think they're going to live much longer than they actually do because we make these decisions based on where we're at now, and we're thinking like, okay, here I am and my trajectory sort of looks like this. But we very often get it wrong. And I think that's okay. I don't think we just adjust. And I think that's fine.

Debra (22:28):

Well, we need to talk about thinking about that. I took Ageist super age quiz and I project that I'm going to live to 95 to 105. David, am I overshooting?

David (22:43):

I have no idea. I'm not the oracle of mortality. I wish I was. I'd be incredibly rich, but I'm not. But thank you for taking the quiz. So I'm just going to plug the quiz. Go to ageist.com/quiz. It's the super age quiz, and you'll find out what kind of super age you are. And the point of the quiz is that what we found at ais where we were sort of delivering everybody the same kind of information, and I too am an owl and we, owls are very sort of science data. We love gadgets and we're very deep into that sort of stuff. We tend to be fairly, I guess more disciplined in how we go about things. Nothing, no good points and bad points to that. And the reason we make the quiz is because we realize everyone is different. And so people have different ambitions and different interests, and I spend time science reports. Most people, their eyes would glaze over and they're like, why are you doing that? So what we're doing is by doing this quiz and sort of doing these different animal types, we're able to then send people information that matches up with their interest in their ambitions.

Debra (24:04):

That's brilliant. Now how many animals can you be?

David (24:08):

Well, we try to keep it really simple because I don't, I think the quiz, I think we timed it out. It's a little under three minutes. It's like 10 questions. So we just did it into three animals. So dolphins, foxes, and owls. And we can maybe further in the future we'll add more animals or sub animals or stuff like that, or combinations of animals. But just at the moment, we just wanted to keep it really simple for people and just say like, Hey, if you are this kind of person, we're going to deliver information to you that fits your view of the world about what you're interested in. And so I think it's just sort of a better way to go.

Debra (24:51):

It's brilliant. And we'll make sure that we have all the information in our episode notes and any early learnings. David, from what you've seen so far on the data, because an owl, I have to know,

David (25:03):

Of course we thought most people would be dolphins, but all the people who've taken the initial quiz, the majority of people are foxes. And then I think the loo is probably the smallest group. So the Fox is the biggest group. The Dolphin is the next biggest group, and the owl is the smallest group. I think it's a very specific subgroup of people who've taken the quiz so far. So it's only been like a few thousand people I think out in the general population. My guess is there'll be more dolphins, but who knows? Wherever you are, we're happy to have you

Debra (25:46):

Just pods of ageist dolphins. It's going to be awesome. So we all want to know what you guys are. So please make sure that you check out ageist, make sure you take the quiz and interested to see what other findings you all have. And also make sure that you sign up for David's absolutely terrific weekly newsletter and all the other goodness that comes with Ageist.

David (26:11):

Thank you. Yeah, that'd be great.

Debra (26:13):

Thank you so much for talking with me today, David.

David (26:16):

Absolutely. It's my pleasure, Debra. You're an inspiration and I'm really glad we know each other and

Debra (26:22):

You too. We'll see you in Park City.

David (26:24):

Okay, take care.

Debra (26:26):

Thanks for listening to the Dareful Project. Please follow, like and leave a review. It really helps. We're on all your favorite platforms, Spotify, apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, iHeartRadio, audible. Tune in Amazon, Stitcher, SoundCloud, and YouTube. And to connect, you can email me at [email protected]. That's Debra, D-E-B-R-A at Dareful one. That's with the number one.com. Thanks for listening.

Change surrounds us, says Michael Clinton, author of ROAR into the second half of life (before its too late). And he should know. As one of the longest-serving top executives in the magazine publishing world leading Hearst Magazines, he's witnessed the seismic shifts in that industry. We talk about how he moved from exec to entrepreneur, how to answer the question "what is your favorite future?" and what we can do now to realize our new adventurous life.

Sign up for Michael's newsletter: ROAR Forward

Transcription:

Debra Hotaling (00:04):

Hello and welcome to the Dareful Project. I'm Debra Hotaling. I'm really excited about our guest today. He is one of the longest serving top execs in the magazine publishing world, and I promise you that you have read and loved so many of the magazines that he's been responsible for. I mean, the list is long. Here are a few, the Oprah magazine, GQ Cosmopolitan, Esquire, Men's Health, Runner's World, and the list goes on and on. And now our guest, Michael Clinton, has lit out onto new territories. He's here with us today to talk about the trailblazing work he's doing, thinking about humans over 50. And he has a great new book. Great new book. Here it is. It's called Roar Into the Second Half of Your Life Before It's Too Late.

Michael, welcome.

Michael Clinton (00:55):

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I'm really looking forward to the conversation.

Debra (00:59):

So help us understand what you saw in the cultural conversation that propelled you into doing the research that you're doing, launching your new businesses, writing a book. Tell us where you came from on this.

Michael (01:15):

Well, no thank you. It's an observation that we're in the middle of what is a pretty meaningful social movement in the country. The number of people in the United States that are 50 or older is now 35% of the population. The first millennials turn 50 in seven years, which is quite astounding. If you're 50 and healthy, you have a really good chance of living to be 90 or older. And so the whole construct that we've been given, the cultural construct that was handed to us was that you're supposed to be winding down as you start moving into your fifties and sixties. And that script was written a hundred years ago when life expectancy was 62. So you basically did work till 62 and then you sort of retired for a couple of years, then you were gone. Well, today it is a radically different environment because if you are 60, pick a number and you live another 30 years, that's a lot of living that can have meaning and purpose and so forth. So how do you rethink what this is all going to mean for you individually? And it has huge implications globally because many countries are like Japan and Korea and UK and Germany, the US have very big, fast growing population is over 50. That was the aha.

Debra (02:42):

And you personally, where did you come from in all of this? Did you have a personal aha as you were moving through your career?

Michael (02:50):

Yeah, no, for sure. As you mentioned, I had a spectacular publishing career with a lot of amazing people, brands launching many magazines, buying companies, being the president and publishing director of Hearst Magazines, being the chairman of the magazine, publishers of America. I was really full. I had a really full exciting career and I was in my early sixties and I was kind of, okay, I'm kind of ready to go do my next thing and you can close out one career and move into another career or other activities. And that's what was my thought. But when I started looking around and reading things, watching things and talking to people, it was all of the old fashioned script, which was about the wind down, like quote, retire, which we hate that word. We call it refire in the book, move to a sunny state. I live in New York City, I'm very happy in New York City play golf. I don't play golf. So I was like, I'm really, I don't fit this archetype. And so I said, I need to go find my people. So I found a lot of people who thought like me and think like me. And in the book, as you know, I ended up interviewing 40 individuals who we call the imagineers, the people who are really at the forefront of this whole movement. So I had a personal aha in addition to an observational one.

Debra (04:21):

I love that. And I love the people. You did so much research and I want to make sure we will make sure that in our notes, that people have lots of ways that they can find you and find your book because it is amazing. He covers a lot of ground on this, but one of the things I want to double click on is the R word retirement. I love that you hate that word. I super hate it too. But no one else has been able to get to a good word. You did refire instead of retire. Could you talk about that?

Michael (04:49):

Yeah, I mean, retirement is a false construct. Yeah, it was created a hundred years ago by the government. So social security was established in the 1930s, and it was to move older people out because younger people were moving up. And this notion of social security was, at the time there were about seven, 8 million people who were 65 or over. So the government was like, yeah, we can afford this. Well, today it's over 58 million people and the crisis around the social security issue. But what happened is prior to that, for all of millennia, you basically worked until you died. You may have worked in different things, but you were engaged, you were involved, you were making a contribution, you were earning an income, all of that. And so this notion of retirement is what sends people into depression and loneliness and feeling worthless and not having connections in community. And so we like to say rewire into something else because you don't have to do your same first career, go do an entirely second new kind of career that doesn't have to have the same motivations or the same kinds of things you had in your first career. Do something that you really love. It may not include a lot of money, or it may include more volunteer time, or it may include social impact, but rewire into something else that is giving you meaning and fulfillment. And so that's why we banish that word retire.

Debra (06:29):

I love that. And we can all have plans, and you talk a lot about planning, but one of the things that has surprised me is even with all the plans, you can't imagine what life is going to be like until you're sort of living it day to day. And what I realized first after I left a big corporate job is that I was subconsciously sort of building a smaller box, but the same construct. I was just going to do the same thing I did in corporate, but just kind of in a different way. And I've come to realize that that may not be my future and that I have to actually totally reimagine what I'm doing, which is daunting. And again, why I love your book so much because you give some really concrete details of how you kind of start parting out that conversation. Was it a surprise to you when you started launching this?

Michael (07:18):

One of the things that I learned along the way from all these amazing people who I met is you can't replicate many people, as you said, try to replicate what they had in a different form. And what we all have to know is that we have a run in a specific industry or business or career, and sometimes that run ends and then you have to completely reimagine and reinvent. But think about the skills that you've acquired during that long run and how do you repurpose those skills. So as you know in the book, we have a lot of tools and a lot of great fun quizzes and ways for you to get to the bottom of your own re-imagination process. And I think that for me it was completely, I was not interested in being engaged one way or the other in the magazine industry anymore.

(08:12):

It was a great run. What I did is I went back to school and got a master's degree in my sixties in nonprofit philanthropy. I obviously wrote this book. I did a lot of, I'm a marathon runner, I continued to, I ran my seventh marathon on seven continents when I turned 60. So I was like, let's go. And there's a whole chapter about life layering, which is the way you build it from a practical standpoint. So I think enjoy, and by the way, this is not just career, it's also when your kids grow up and are gone, you have to reinvent who you are then because you're no longer as involved as a parent as you was when you were raising the kids, or if your partner leaves you and or you decide to break up with a partner, you're in a different personal stage and you have to reinvent who you are as a single person, whether you're divorced, widowed, all the above. So there's a lot of different ways to reimagine. And those are just a few examples.

Debra (09:25):

And what you're talking about and what your book covers is for any age. I mean, what you're describing is things that happen to us as humans, not just at a certain point in our life. So what you go through, what you tick through in your book, I think has application no matter where you are, beginning, middle, or end. Talk more about layering how you do that.

Michael (09:47):

Yeah. Well, we always start with what I call the three Ps. And the three Ps are your partner. If you're partnered, you're parenting. If you're a parent and your professional life, you're working, you may not have all three Ps, but you generally have one or two of the three Ps. But the three Ps completely define us. Probably when you step back and think about those three Ps, it's probably 90% or more of your life because you're busy working, you're busy raising with your kids, you're busy with your partner, et cetera. And what we like to say is that a cautionary tale, kids grow up and move away. Jobs come and go, layoffs, downsizing, whatever. Hopefully your partner sticks around. But who are you without those three Ps? What is the fourth key in your life? Meaning what are the personas that will define you? And if you talk to a lot of people who are midlife in particular, they have a hard time answering that.

(11:00):

So the life layering process is a way to start building layered personas that define you, reflect you, are you as you move into the second half of life in different ways. I'll give you one example. I was 39 years old. I was the publisher of GQ. I had a great family life, love life, professional life, but I felt I was the most boring human being on the planet because all I was doing was working. I was totally one of these people who self-defined by my job and it was a great job. But as I turned 40, I decided I always had an adventure gene in me. So I decided that I would do three things. I would go climb Mount Kilimanjaro, a group of friends in Africa. I would take a race car driving class, and I would take a flying lesson. So I was really tapping into my adventure gene and I became a pilot and ultimately climbed at many, many mountains.

(12:02):

And I decided that my forties were going to be my adventure years. So I created this idea of what I called the layer of my persona, my adventure persona. And we could do a whole hour on me telling you about all my adventures of climbing mountains all over the world and going to Madagascar and Tasmania and flying all over the world and running marathons and hiking and doing all these kinds of things. So I've got this whole layer of adventure, adventure that is part of my persona today and that have got other multiple layers, but the life layering teaches you. And by the way, as you said earlier, you can start this at any time, you can create a layer at 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, and I just met a woman who's 82 and she said, I've just started painting and I'm going to paint for the rest of my life. And I'm like, that's your creative layer. And so how do we build out these other layers that are not part of our three Ps that really give us richness and satisfaction in our lives? And so we do some fun things to help you get to identifying what your layer might be because a lot of people say, well, I don't know what my layer should be, but we give some fun tools how you can claim that. So that's kind of life layering in a short definition.

Debra (13:19):

What's interesting as I'm hearing you say that, is that it's also kind of disruptive. If you've lived your life sort of defined by the three P's, and then you go to the people you love and you say, I'm going to go climb Kilimanjaro, who's with me? That feels like a little bit of a transgressive kind of conversation to have. Tell me, are there bumps to that that you have to overcome?

Michael (13:41):

Well, let's put it probably in a less adventurous way. You have to go to your Aunt Mary's house every year for Thanksgiving, and you have to travel to pick a city to go and spend four days in that city with Aunt Mary and you love Aunt Mary, but you really don't want to do that anymore. And you have to tell Aunt Mary that you're not going to come for Thanksgiving this year because you've decided that instead, you're going to go take a trip and do a four day trip, pick a place. When you lob those kinds of announcements to your family, to your friends and so forth, you have to be bold enough and courageous enough to readjust, reimagine how you ultimately want to spend your time. If going to Aunt Mary's for four days is no longer satisfying you and you love your Aunt Mary, go visit Aunt Mary another time.

(14:40):

But reorient yourself in terms of fulfilling the kinds of things that you want to do to fill your time. And we talk a lot about time audit because we all waste a lot of time, all of us do and superfluous things. And I always say to people, just take two weeks and do a time audit about how you're spending your time and is it bringing you value? Are you spending time and how there are things we have to do, we have responsibilities, but there are a lot of things that are wasted time that we could reimagine that time or regroup in ways that we can use the time in a more meaningful way for us. And for those of us who are over 50, we realize as we live longer, that time is a really precious commodity, and we realize that time is something that should really be used in a really emphatic way. And so take that responsibility. ROAR is an acronym, and the last R stands for Reassess Your Relationships. And it's right in this area that we're talking about right in this area talking

Debra (15:55):

About, okay, let's go through ROAR so everyone knows what it stands for.

Michael (16:01):

Yeah, thank you. Well, the first R is the notion of the re-imagination process and how do you do it? How do you engage in it? How do you make it a practice, a daily practice? How do you focus on it, make a commitment to it? So that's sort of the first R the O is owning your numbers. Everything that is built for your future has to start with good fundamental health numbers. I'm always shocked at how many people, Deborah are 50 years old, and you say, what's your blood pressure? What's your heart rate? And they have no idea. Have you had a colonoscopy? No. How many people do we know? I mean, all the things we have in medicine today that are preventative, that are there to help us have what we call the health span of new longevity, they're all there for us. The tools are absolutely incredible.

(16:54):

So how do you take the responsibility to own your numbers, your health numbers first, then you've got to own your financial numbers. Do you have the financial foundation? How are you going to fund a life if you live to be 80 or 90 or older? How are you going to fund that life? Have you really thought that through and map that out. So own your numbers, own your age. I think that 60 is not the new 40, 60 is the new 60. And embrace it, right? Embrace it. And I look across the culture now and we see Jennifer Lopez in her fifties. Lenny Kravitz is 60, Jill Biden is 72. Martha Stewart was on Sports Illustrated in 82. The pro aging phenomena of men and women claiming their age and saying, this is what it looks like and this is who you can be too, is really a positive force in our culture. And there was just a book written by Dr. Becca Levy, who I've become a real fan of. She's at Yale called Breaking the Age Code that a positive attitude about your age and aging can bring you seven and a half more years of life.

(18:15):

There is a mental issue, mental health issue around thinking positively about living longer. And so owning your age, and by the way, and then the other thing you have to own is that we are all going to leave planet Earth someday, and we do have to own that final number. And what's the legacy? If you're 50 or 60, what haven't you done that is meaningful to you? What do you want to do for the next 20, 30 years? What's important to you? And so owning that end date is important to you. So that's owning your numbers. A is the action plan, which is all about life layering of course. And then R is reassessing your relationships. And you touched on it. It's the people around you that have to lift you and support you. If you decide you want to go through a radical professional change in your fifties, or you have to leave a marriage that doesn't work any longer, or you've decided that you're going to become sober and all your friends are out partying, drinking every night, how do you regroup and understand those are supporting where you want to go, and how do you edit out those who aren't supportive of you and bring new people your tribe into your posse?

(19:39):

And I think that's hard at midlife because we all have that college roommate that we met 25 years ago, but it's kind of turned into a toxic relationship now, and you're kind of hanging on for the sake of hanging on as opposed to time to move on. It's tough, but it's once again, courage

Debra (20:00):

And what you bring up also, I had a guest on a couple of weeks ago, a friend of mine who went into extreme friendship making. And so she decided, I can't just lose friends, but I got to work really hard and actively to find new folks. And so I think what you're saying there is that that reassessment isn't just who doesn't serve, but also seeking out those new interesting relationships also. Right?

Michael (20:23):

Absolutely. At all ages, people of all ages of friendships. I mean, I have friends from twenties to nineties and always find the magic of life and you being a human is, you meet people along the way in your journey and you end up saying, how blessed am I that I got to meet you when I was 50 or 60 and you're completely on my wavelength. And yeah, you've got to be open to that and not only in friendships, but you've got to be open to romance and intimacy and the importance of that as well,

Debra (21:02):

Which I want to bring up. You have a press release out on your NRG survey and you say 77% of 50 to seven year olds, your re imagineers are sexually active. Michael, let's talk about sex.

Michael (21:19):

Well, this is the big taboo because there's a lot of perception that people aren't having sex in the second half of their life. The New York Times did a really great cover story of their magazine about a year ago. It was called Sex Over 70. And I thought, what a great story to bring sort of sex out of the closet because you may not be having the same kind of sex you had when you were 25, but people want intimacy. And many people, sex has lots of different interpretations. It's the individuals that are involved. It hopefully starts with a romance and intimacy. But I think that our survey found that people, in this case there were 50 to 70, had very active sex lives. And I think if you talk to people in their seventies and eighties, you would find the same thing.

Debra (22:12):

I would argue better, because you know what your partner wants, you know what you want. And I think a lot. I just think that there's a lot going on. Yeah, okay. I'm quoting you here. 77% of 50 to 70 year olds are sexually active with more than 40% having sex weekly.

Michael (22:32):

Yeah, that was a big number that surprised me. I was like, okay. But what you probably know is a lot of these sex surveys that a lot, this was only one question in a much bigger survey, but oftentimes you have to say, okay, do you think you are or you'd like to be? Or what is really, is it really because you don't want to feel like you're not as active? So I take a little bit of it with the grain of salt, but that's okay. I think the intent is really there, the interest is really there, and I think that's, we are human beings who need that kind of, once again, intimacy and physical contact. I don't think that ever goes away. I was listening to a podcast, he was 107 and she was 105, and they were dating nice. They were a new couple, and she was talking about the intimacy that they were having. She didn't go into great detail, but sleeping in the same bed and body contact and however they were interpreting it, she did have a great kicker at the end, she said. And basically after a really great night's sleep of cuddling and all that, I wake up the next morning, and as long as he's still breathing, I know that we'll have another day together.

(24:02):

I was like, that's great.

Debra (24:03):

God Bless.

Michael (24:05):

That spirit, that should never die.

Debra (24:07):

Oh, I love that. In the research, what else surprised you? What else were ah-has?

Michael (24:14):

I think the one thing, there were several things. There was a point of view that the institutions that serve us like government and entertainment and media and advertising, are way behind the sensibility of this new kind of 50 plus consumer and 50 plus human being. Because look around you, everybody, and look at people who are over 50, who are fit and dynamic and tech savvy and engaged and traveling and globally and all those things. And you go, wait a minute. That's what 50, 60, 70 plus looks like today. And everything that you're showing me and serving me is an antiquated representation. I think everyone resoundingly said that brands and advertising and entertainment is way behind where my head is at as a human being. And so I think the people, it sort of reminds me 50 years ago when the women's movement first started when women were sort of saying the same thing, wait a minute, how are you representing me in advertising? And how are you representing me as a character in a movie? You're only representing me as a mother and I'm much more multi-dimensional. Why aren't you showing me badass women who are warriors? And now today we have that. When you look at the kinds of characters that Helen Maren plays…

Debra (26:01):

Love her.

Michael (26:02):

Gal Gadot plays a superhero. But 50 years ago, young women or women didn't see characters like that. It's the same example today, we need to up our game in representation, and there are some sprouts that are happening across our cultural landscape that are addressing that, but we have a long way to go. So that was a really big topic that we saw in the study.

Debra (26:31):

What sprouts are you seeing? Because we do have, if you have folks who have not yet experienced being 50, 60, 70, 80, I think it's hard to write films that accurately describe it. And if you have the writer's room filled with 20 year olds, it's not always happening. You've got Amy Bear doing Landline Productions, you've got the Geena Davis Institute who's advocating for more accurate representation. But I mean, how do we get there?

Michael (27:01):

Yeah. Well, I'm very good friends with Amy. As you mentioned, Amy's and I are going to be together next week, and as you know, she has multiple movies in romantic comedies for people over 50 with those actors and actresses over 50. I think part of this discussion, and I've discussed this with her as well as in creative round tables, is you have to have people who are in the 50 plus demographic who represent the authenticity. And once upon a time, and this because we earlier were talking about our respective backgrounds, once upon a time there were a bunch of white men sitting around a table deciding what women and people of color and so forth and the table, the creative table got more diversified over time, more women, more people of color, more authentic perspectives. But what hasn't happened is people over 50 are not around that creative table to challenge the stereotypes that are integrated into characters or advertising images to call it out and to say that's inauthentic.

(28:15):

That is a bad representation. That is a stereotypical representation. So the first thing we need to do is to make sure there's a seat at the table all the way through the process so that bad representation can be called out. And I think Amy's a good example of with landline pictures. Someone is doing that. I think L'Oreal is a great brand that is doing it. L'Oreal has been really on the forefront of this. There's a great eyewear company called Caddis. They have a really great product and a great positioning. I was at a conference recently and I showed a great Clos du Bois television ad that was with all people 50 plus, and it was really upbeat and dynamic and great characters. So you're finding a Hoka Silver sneakers. You're finding brands that are emerging that are sort of breaking through the outdated paradigm. But we need more and more. And I would say until I wrote a piece about this for Esquire, I'm writing a lot on this topic for Esquire and Men's Health and Oprah Daily, people go on to roar forward.com and go to our thought leadership tab. You can see a lot of the stories, but one of the stories was around how Hollywood needs to, that they're missing a huge audience by not focusing on entertainment and movies and television shows that the show great representation. One example that I call out is Queen Latifah on her show.

(30:06):

She herself is in her fifties, the character is in her fifties, and the character is an amazing woman who you're just in awe of. We need more of that, we need more of that.

Debra (30:17):

And what would be great is that we get to a point where we aren't even calling out folks who are different ages going and look what a 70 year old can do. The Golden Bachelor all good, but the fact that we are making such a big deal that someone could look good when he's in his seventies and women could look good in their age. It's a step in the right direction, but we got to grow from this.

Michael (30:41):

Yeah, you're right. It's funny you bring that up because at a conference recently, I was asked that question and I said, here's what the end state is. The end state is age agnostic in representation, and you don't even think about it. You just see it. And so there's not the, oh, she looks great for 70. You just sort of see a 70 year old and it's just integrated in a very natural form, and you just assume that that's what 70 can be. You don't even put to your point of name, number against it, but age inclusivity, age agnostic in the right representation of that will get us there.

Debra (31:27):

Do you remember the movie Reds with Helen Mirren? I love that movie because Helen is a complete badass, right? And they don't go, she's a grownup. Seriously grownup woman being a badass. She just is, and she looks spectacular, but she also has really good army boots. She's going to have to run away from the bad guys. And she has intimacy with his other cohort, and I loved everything about it because she's strong, wonderful. And we didn't go, oh, look at us being inclusive with Helen Mirren. It was just there, right?

Michael (32:02):

It's organic. No, it's a great example. It's a great example. I think you will see just by the sheer size of this population bulge that's happening. And by the way, this is not a fad. This is a long trend because you probably know that while life expectancies are longer than they've ever been, there is pretty much a flat to negative birth rate in the developed countries that depending on the country immigration guidelines in countries like Japan, which is the oldest country in the world, really doesn't have an immigration sliver, so to speak, of people coming into Japan to work to fill out the gaps. So Japan, I always say to people, go to Japan and Singapore. That's the future. That's what the world's going to look like. China also. And so the people are going to force this issue in terms of all the things we're talking about.

(33:04):

The other thing that I will point out is that if you looked at America today and you looked at the 50 plus consumer that spends $8.3 trillion in GDP, it would be the third largest country in the world. Now just stop and think about that. The spending power and also 70% of the assets in this country, illiquid assets of home ownership and stocks and bonds, et cetera, are owned by people over 50. Now, not everyone, of course has, we still have a lot of inequality in our country, but the reality is that this generation writ large, has huge spending power, has huge asset base, is dynamic and different than any generation before them. And they're ready to go and they're saying, let's go. And once again, the marketers around them are kind of missing the boat because they're not tapping into them.

Debra (34:15):

I mean, that's the surprise to me. I mean, there's real money. So you've mentioned some brands that are really good. How as consumers of media and products, what can we do to be voting towards better representation?

Michael (34:33):

Well, it's funny you asked. We picked up in the research, and I've talked to some of my advertising executive friends and said, this is a new moment where people are saying, I'm going to step away from a brand if a brand does, if I can't see myself in that brand, and I'll use a great example, the footwear company, Hoka.

(34:59):

And Hoka, not to pick on Nike, but Nike was born for the boomers. That was the Boomer brand because when Nike was born, all the boomers were young and in their twenties and so forth. And Nike has pretty much stuck to their knitting about promoting to younger consumers. And a lot of people over 50 have left Nike to go to Hoka because they think that the brand speaks to them in a lot of different ways in terms of styling, in terms of performance, in terms of imaging. And so I think when people say to me that people over 50 are brand loyal, I say, that's not true. Who's buying Tesla? People who are European import automotive consumers in the past who's buying Apple Watch, people who used to buy traditional luxury watches are trading out into Apple Watch because of biometrics, et cetera.

(36:02):

Who's buying luxury travel Four Seasons. And Ritz Carlton once owned that space. Now there are new players coming in like Six Senses and one and only are coming in above them and capturing that luxury traveler of other different kinds of services. So the 50 plus consumer is no longer brand loyal. That is a real urban myth that needs to explode because they are buying products and brands that are new, that are different, that are serving their interests. I'll go back to Tesla. I mean the whole electric vehicle phenomena, and Tesla is leading in that space, obviously. And we all know a lot of people in their fifties, sixties, seventies, they're buying Teslas.

Debra (36:56):

Well, this is why folks need your research rather than the traditional, I think marketing demographic research, because I think brands unconsciously maybe try to find the data that supports the status quo and that describes that sort of old way of marketing and advertising versus what you are finding and what you're talking about, which is a huge opportunity, 8.3 trillion, but you have to look new at it. Yeah,

Michael (37:24):

I call it the new growth market. Ironically, it's a new growth market that's been reframed by this generational cohort that's reframing it. The baby boomers love them or hate them. The boomers were always the agitators. The boomers agitated about ending the war. They agitated about sex and drugs and rock and roll. They agitated about workplace, and now these boomers are agitating about redefinition of aging, and this is their big last agitation because they're like saying, wait a minute, just because I'm 70 doesn't mean, and so they're agitating. And what's great about it is not only will they agitate for themselves, they, we are all very self-centered. So we'll agitate for ourselves, but we will create role models for the next generation to be able to say, ah, this is what my parents did, or my aunt and uncle or my neighbors. They were doing amazing things at 60 and or 70 and or later.

(38:36):

So I think it has a long tail into next generations. It's the same way that a woman today at 25 can come out of school or at 22 or 23 and can look at the whole opportunity landscape and say, oh, I can be the CEO of a company. I can be on Supreme Court. I can run for president. I can do this. I can do that. Very, very different than 50 years ago when there weren't a lot of role models. We're building the role models of the future of the new longevity lifestyle. That's really what's happened.

Debra (39:12):

I love that. And building on what you just said there, the other thing I'm finding from this podcast and other work thinking about this space is that people in their twenties and thirties now are trying to figure stuff out. And when they see that there are folks in their fifties, sixties, seventies who are going, you know what? It's really fun. I love my body. I'm having great adventures. It gives great comfort even for folks in their twenties and thirties that they're like, oh my God, this gets better. And there are other ways that you can approach the world. So again, from a marketing standpoint, you're not going to be shutting out younger consumers by focusing on this older demographic. In fact, I would argue that it's more inclusive.

Michael (39:59):

Yes, absolutely. Of course, brands need to cultivate younger consumers. Absolutely. But it's a broader this from your own professional experience. Media advertisers stop buying media at 54, so they buy 25 to 54, and so everything else is kind of off the cliff. But that once again, that playbook was written at a time when there was not a lot of elasticity in that 54 plus consumer in terms of brand loyalty. And one of the things we found in our research is that this consumer's buying across every single category In the past, it was like, well, they're going to buy healthcare and they're going to buy financial, and that's all. Well, now they're buying fashion and travel and beauty and home and on and on and on. So yeah, it's an inclusivity thing. I'm on the board at the Stanford University Center on longevity and some of the science, there's a wonderful piece people can pull up called The New Map of Life.

(41:11):

The a hundred year life is here. The science shows that today's five-year old has a 50% chance to live to be a hundred. The life cycles are going to change dramatically. I was with a young 22 year old yesterday who I've been mentoring saying, you have a long runway. You don't to boil the ocean in the past, in your twenties. I've got to find my career. I've got to find my path. I've got to find my mate. I've got to have my child. I've got to the pressures. And now you can have a child later, you can marry later, you can partner later, you can change a career. You're going to have a 60 year career if you're going to look to be a hundred. So it's not going to be a one-stop shop career. You're going to have a lot, build your skillset, build your knowledge, build your experience, and take that long ride that you're going to have. It's a blessing. And Stanford has a lot of great research on this whole phenomena. So I think to your point about people in their twenties,

Debra (42:23):

Final question. How do we begin? What would be the one thing that you would coach folks to just take one little step to be moving in the ROAR direction?

Michael (42:35):

Good question. First of all, take a baby step. What I found with the 40 people who have all gone through this and got to a re-imagination, they spent a year or two really thinking about it and really doing the work is important. You're not going to solve it in a weekend or two or three or go away to a spa and think about it over a few days. It doesn't work that way. You really have to go introspective and really dig deep into what is important to you and what do you really want, and start by prioritizing it and developing what is number one on the list and start to focus on that first. The first step is always the hardest. I always say to people, as I mentioned, I'm a marathon runner, so I'll use running as an analogy. And they'll say, well, I want to start a fitness and wellness program.

(43:37):

And I'll say, well, what's your exercise regimen? Because exercise is the number one thing, the absolute number one thing for good health span and longevity. Genes only play 20% of your longevity, your own personal longevity. 80% of it is lifestyle, and exercise is number one at all ages. And I always say, what's your exercise regimen? Well, I really don't have one, and I really am interested in running, but I don't know how to start. I say, you know how to start. Go buy a pair of running shoes and take a walk around the high school track in your neighborhood. That's your baby step. And then take two walks around, then three walks around, then do a little jog, then do a little run, then do a little this, then do a little that. And before you know it, you might be running a 10 K, so build on it. But the baby step is 50%. Taking the first step is more than 50% of the equation, but you have to do the work. What do you want to do and accomplish and how do you prioritize? So I mean, those would be my sort of top line thoughts on the subject, Deborah?

Debra (44:47):

Well, thank you. Well, we've covered a lot today. And again, I want to make sure that everyone knows to make sure that they get your book. You can see I've got mine totally marked up already. It's really insightful and really easy at the end with all sorts of checklists, so it's very, very useful. Michael, thank you so much.

Michael (45:05):

Thank you so much. It was great to be with you. Great. Have a conversation.

Debra (45:08):

Thanks for listening to the Dareful Project. Please follow, like and leave a review. It really helps. We're on all your favorite platforms, Spotify, apple Podcasts, Google Podcast, iHeartRadio, audible. Tune in Amazon Music, Stitcher, SoundCloud, and YouTube. And to connect, you can email me at [email protected]. That's Debra, D-E-B-R-A at Dareful one. That's with the number one.com. Thanks for listening.

Friendship as extreme sport? If you're Kim Coutts, yes. After life threw her some curveballs, Coutts decided she needed to get brave about new relationships. And she's leaned into the challenge the way some of us would train for a triathalon or climb Mt. Whitney. In other words, all in and pushing to the limit. Hear her practical advice and what happens when you click yes to every Meetup out there.

Transcript:

Debra Hotaling (00:04):

Hello and welcome to the Dareful Project. I'm Debra Hotaling. Some people climb big mountains and some surf big waves. But my friend Kim Coutts, she makes new friends. She makes friends like a ninja warrior. She makes friends like you would prepare for a triathlon or you would climb Mount Whitney. In other words, she is all in. And she did this as a challenge to herself and her stories are amazing. So she's here with us today to talk about why she took on the challenge, how she started to make new friends, and what we can learn from this sort of extreme sport of friendship making. Kim, welcome.

Kim Coutts (00:48):

Thank you for having me. So fun.

Debra (00:50):

So all of us as we get older, I mean we used to have our kid friends. We would just hang out and play together. And then as young people and parents, we would be friends of college friends or we would be friends of our kids', friends, their parents. And now it's harder. It just feels harder. How do you find new friends? How did you get this way? How did you get started?

Kim (01:18):

I think I got divorced, and I think it's really easy to be complacent when you're living with another person. You never really hit that loneliness spot where you're like, oh my gosh, I have to do something huge to change this. But when I got divorced, I decided I would move out. I ended up all the way up in Portland sort of accidentally, and I was going through something and completely by myself, so I decided I needed to do something about it. And I dove. In my typical fashion, I have a tendency to overshoot things. I either don't do anything at all or I do too much. So I probably did more than I needed to, but I learned a lot and have kind of kept doing it. And I will say I listen to a lot of podcasts like yours, which are amazing. But I was listening to one the other day on goal setting and how we achieve goals and they really recommend that you can only achieve one goal at a time and you really need to focus on one thing and write down all the verbs of the things that are required to do it.

Kim (02:16):

So I definitely go through phases where I focus on other things, but I am back in a friend making mode right now. So it's definitely one of my top goals I'm focused on again at this time.

Debra (02:27):

And listeners are go, yeah. Yeah, we're all about friendships. I like making friends too. But I got to tell you guys, we are not even in the league of Kim. We were talking on the phone last week and this is how I got so excited about sharing this with y'all because she just started going down the meetup list. And keep me honest on this, Kim, but it sounded like you were just bringing up Meetup and just checking all the boxes. I mean all those weird things, all of those, I don't know if that's super sketchy things you were in, right?

Kim (03:00):

I am in Meetup is odd. It's a really amazing tool, but I also view it kind of online dating and it's a numbers game or a sales funnel as a lot of people might look at it. So I figure I have to join probably 20 meetup groups. I'll go to 10 or 11, I'll like five or six, and then I'll maybe make two or three friends from one of those because a lot of it you want it to result in five great new friendships when you show up. But it's not that easy. And when I was thinking about it before coming today, I realized that I actually haven't made a lot of long-term friends from my meetup groups that I've been in. But I do think that it spurs an energy and a focus and an intention that sort of puts that energy out in the world and then makes other things happen. Friendship is kind of that magic that you get to meet somebody and you connect and you like the same things. And I love that energy. And it doesn't always happen because of my meetup groups, but I do think that it puts that energy out there and then that magic happens where I just happen to sit down next to the right person in a bar or meet someone at work or public transit, whatever it is. I think it sort of sets that intention and helps you find them, even if it is in other ways.

Debra (04:18):

I like this because some of my guy friends would say that it was a numbers game with dating, you just kind of ask a lot of women out and then somebody says yes. And a lot of people say no, and it's okay. This kind of feels a little bit like the same thing.

Kim (04:33):

I actually feel like it is the same thing. I mean that magic, that connection with another person really is the same thing. But I think as humans we think that dating is, yeah, for sure you should be out there looking for your person, but how often do you run into somebody that tells you their main goal in life is making new friends? People just don't really prioritize it or they want it, but they don't really plan and go out to do it. And I do think there's still a little bit of a stigma to it that if you say you don't have enough friends, there's something wrong with you and you're a loser or that you're supposed to just collect them in life and they stick around forever. And then my case, that hasn't really happened. I have some great friends that moved away and we're certainly still friends, but I don't get to go and hang out with them. And then particularly when you have big life changes, I think you need to replace some of those friends. And I found out there was a lot of couple friends that were uncomfortable for some reason or another, and I still haven't quite figured that out. But being friends with someone that wasn't in a couple and I just didn't get invited to things for six, seven and my friends just immediately quit inviting me to stuff. So I had to figure out a way to replace that.

Debra (05:43):

It does feel weird though. I mean, I've met folks that I'm like, you're really cool. I would like to go have lunch with you. And I feel incredibly awkward saying, hi, will you be my friend and go out to lunch with me. Did you feel that way or are you just so brave?

Kim (06:00):

I do feel that way, but I a hundred percent make myself do it. I met one of my closest friends right now. She was interviewing for a job at my company. I had her resume. I saw that she lived in my neighborhood, which is kind of odd. I live about 40 minutes away from our office, so it's not that normal to have someone in my neighborhood. The job wasn't right. She didn't want it, it just wasn't a good fit. But she mentioned on our interview call that she was new to the area and didn't know a lot of people. I emailed her after the interview and just said, Hey, I know that this isn't going to work out as a job, but I thought we really connected and do you want to go grab happy hour? And that was hard. You are, it's just asking someone for a date. I think you put yourself out there, but then if someone did that to you and wanted to be your friend, would you ever be bummed about it? It's so flattering.

Debra (06:50):

No, and it's so rare as you're saying that, I can see in my mind the handful of men and women who were brave enough to say, let's go have lunch together. I think you'd be cool as a friend. That is so rare. But wait, but I have to ask, do people turn you down?

Kim (07:08):

No one has ever turned me down, but what people do is just disappear. And that's the other thing I've had to learn is that friendship. People say it comes in seasons, and I've always been that person then if I really like you, I want to hold onto you and spend time with you. And I've definitely had friendships that were around for five or six months and then they just sort of disappear. And I've realized that that has to be okay. But I always think that, oh gosh, what did I say? Or what did I do? And you kind of put it on your own self more than thinking that, oh, they're busy or there's so many reasons, but people do disappear sometimes, and that's tough. But I figured for a reason.

Debra (07:49):

And then there's also the second date question, I guess, because it's one thing to go, oh, would you like to go grab a glass of wine and we'll go and hang out together? But then you have to decide, do I like you well enough to ask you out again as a friend, right?

Kim (08:04):

Yep, a hundred percent. And I feel like once you get past that, once you've done something together three times, then you're friends and then it becomes normal and you don't have to feel weird about it. But I feel like those first three times are a little bit, you just never know. And I've actually really relied on Groupon. That's another thing that people sort of forget about and make fun of, but there's so many fun things to do on Groupon that I've had a couple, three or four friendships that started that way with Let's just both go pick something interesting on Groupon and go do that. And it gives you sort of a shared adventure. One of the same person who I met through the interview, we went on a sidecar tour, so we both gotten this motorcycle sidecar and went on a tour and some kind of a wine tasting tour. So it was an adventure that kind of bonds you in a way that maybe just going out to dinner or happy hour doesn't do.

Debra (08:56):

Have there ever been moments that didn't go right or you turned weird?

Kim (09:05):

No, I mean there's definitely mishaps. I think the last time we were talking, I told you that I was out on a date or showed up for a date and ended up getting stood up. And I looked horribly sad because not only was I all dressed up on a Tuesday, but it was around Christmas time and I just went to a cookie exchange with a friend. So I had this beautiful box of cookies with a big bow on top, and I had sat it next to me on the bar so you could just completely tell that I was getting stood up and it wasn't my best night. But this woman ended up sitting down next to me and we hit it off and she actually asked for my phone number. She asked first, which was lovely, which I gave to her on a receipt. And then I didn't hear from her for probably six months. And I just thought, well, no big deal. I had a nice conversation with someone. It helped me get over the fact that I was getting stood up for the first time in my life. But then she actually remembered my last name, my first and last name from that conversation, found me online and sent me a Facebook messenger request, and we got together and have been friends ever since. So you never know.

Debra (10:12):

Aw, and good for her. That's brave to give someone your phone number.

Kim (10:17):

Yeah. Or to ask for it, right? Yep. And I also, I thought about one of the other things, I've met some friends, but I have an Airbnb that I room I rent in my house, and that is a very immediate intimacy to immediately be living with a stranger. So there's definitely some times where people wanted to be friends with me in that case, and I did not necessarily, and that's a tough thing to navigate when they're living in your house.

Debra (10:48):

Whoa…

Kim (10:49):

She asked if she could borrow my bathing suit once for my jacuzzi.

Debra (10:54):

Wait, what?

Kim (10:55):

So there's definitely some boundary stuff there. I had to really, and I'm such a people pleaser, my first reaction is, well, of course. And then I was thinking, I'll just let her have it. I'll throw it away. But I had to get my courage together and tell her that that's two things. I don't share bathing suits and toothbrushes.

Debra (11:12):

But wait, we just have to double click on this for a sec. I just want all of our viewers and listeners just to check in on the fact that Kim rents a room in her house because she can meet new people again to that extreme ninja warrior spirit for friendship because if things don't go well…

Kim (11:33):

I'll be honest though. I mean I do it for money. I'm not entirely crazy. I'm not that all in. That was also part of my divorce and making sure that I could cover my expenses. And when I moved out, when I got divorced, I lived in 17 Airbnbs in a year. So I saw the other side of it and then I thought, well, this isn't too bad. So I did start doing it when I got home. So I do it primarily for the money, but also it is a great place to make friends. I've had one woman that stayed for a year and a half and was only going to stay for a month, and she definitely became a friend and then another person that ended up staying for five or six months.

Debra (12:13):

I need to know so much more about this. Do you interview people in a different way than if you know that you're going to be opening up your home in this way to them?

Kim (12:21):

For the most part, people will book short term and then end up wanting to stay. So by then I already know them and I know that it's good because I would mean if you were thinking about the old ways that people used to choose roommates and that type of stuff, you would get together and talk to each other. So for the most part, people, the woman that stayed for a year and a half had booked a month and then just asked if she could stay. And the other one was a friend who's a soccer player that had made the team here, moved into team housing and then just hated it. He was living in the living room, they were shoving as many soccer players as they could get in this house, and he couldn't really focus or he'd be the best athlete he thought he could be so moved back into here so he could have some quiet and space.

Debra (13:09):

That actually sounds lovely, like a grownup. All the best of living in a dorm without the crazy.

Kim (13:14):

Right. That was amazing. He would bring the full team over here at lunch and they would use the pool and rest during tryouts. And I did not hate having a soccer team in my backyard.

Debra (13:27):

Well done. Well done.

Kim (13:29):

Yeah, not bad.

Debra (13:32):

So do you get mad skills doing it this way? Are you able to suss out a situation and go, this is maybe this is a maybe or this is a no. How does it work for you inside your head?

Kim (13:46):

I think most people just, well, I mean when I meet someone, there's that definite connection and I think, and in the meantime, it's really just about forcing yourself out there to keep trying. I went to a new meetup group brunch last weekend and I woke up an hour and a half before and all I wanted to do was go back to sleep and not go. So it's a lot of energy to put yourself out there, but I got up and I did it. So I think just a matter of the thing that really works is just keep trying, getting yourself out there.

Debra (14:20):

When researchers do work on friendships, they have something that they call, what is it called? Fast friends. And it's a protocol that they use to connect strangers so that they can watch interactions. And it's this method of asking each other, sharing little things that become more personal and more personal over time, but not oversharing or undersharing or making someone else share a lot and not sharing. It's kind of that even sharing of back and forth. Have you found that that's kind of the way that you approach a series of new friends or how

Kim (14:58):

I don't think about it that much. For instance, at that brunch last weekend, there were 12 people there and me and one other person, we just had things in common. She was going through something that I had been through and we just naturally, I tried to talk to everybody, but we naturally just started talking to each other and we exchanged numbers, but then we haven't crossed that second date platform yet where we've crossed over. But I'm watching the meetup group now to see, okay, I'm going to see if the next time she does something, I'm probably going to want to show up. That type of thing, I guess I don't really think about it quite as much, but I mean it definitely works. And it reminds me of those, they have those 36 questions to ask, make anybody fall in love with you.

Debra (15:44):

I went through those. I have to say, this says more about me than it does about the questions that some of those were so intimate that I don't know that anyone has ever asked me those questions. And I would have a hard time sharing them.

Kim (15:56):

Really.

Debra (15:57):

You're a sharer though.

Kim (15:58):

I am. I'm probably an oversharer. Yeah, I will just put it out there.

Debra (16:04):

Kim and I have been friends for a while. I remember you always being very open, but have you learned to be even more open as a result of this adventure?

Kim (16:14):

Shockingly, I used to be very shy. So when I was up through even my first year of college, I was painfully shy, but I wanted to be a reporter. I had gotten a job at a newspaper. I was dating my husband at the time, and he used to call me the shy Reporter, and I made up quotes for people for the first four or five months I worked for that newspaper. It was a small paper and no one really cared as long as you've made them sound good, he had a really big family. And I remember the exact moment we were in Vegas at a wedding and he had left me for about an hour and a half and I was bored. I was sitting there alone and they told people, go find the person you love most in the room for this next dance. And he was coming towards me and I finally wasn't going to be alone. And the last minute he grabbed his aunt and pulled her on the dance floor and we got in a giant fight and he said, if you would talk to anybody, you wouldn't be so bored. And I thought, you know what? You're right. And the next day I just made myself start and now you can't shut me up.

Debra (17:18):

Oh my God, I am laughing so hard inside my heart about your first job. My first job was in corporate communications and I remember being terrified to call people on the phone. And so I would write down everything I was going to say, hello Kim. Good morning. I would write it down because otherwise I would just be too terrified to call.

Kim (17:45):

And our jobs were similar back in the day where sometimes you'd be given a list for earned media outreach where you'd have to call three or 400 people and it was just horrible. I hated doing it, but you get used to it over time. And yeah, now it's just kind of part of who I am. And I realized that people really respond to those personalities more. My first husband was a little bit of a clown. He worked at a hula hands Irish restaurant for even a couple years after graduation. And he told me a story. The people who worked there, the waiters would be there for a long time, but the managers would turn over a lot and every night when they would get there, they would order nachos for their first meal and he would carry it out, wait till the last minute and then pretend to trip and put his face in the guacamole in the sour cream. And my shy self was just like, that's dumb. I can't believe you do that. I was almost embarrassed that he did that. And then in watching him and how he interact with people, people just love that. They love you to be goofy. And I noticed that people liked him better than they like me. So even though we're divorced, he taught me some really important skills and I definitely changed. I realized that people just react to people that are a little bit more open.

Debra (19:06):

A little bit of face on the guacamole never hurts.

Kim (19:09):

Exactly. Nobody ever minded people thought it was funny.

Debra (19:14):

Can you list for me some of your top 10 meetups?

Kim (19:22):

When I was in Portland, they were more interesting, a little bit stranger in great Portland fashion, and I loved Portland, but I joined the Strange and Unusual Women of Portland and we went on tour or to a devil museum. I went to sex yoga--talking about oversharing--and that was held at a midwifery and we did 10 minutes of interpretive dancing at the beginning. I joined a cold plunge group that does breath work and goes into the ocean dragon boat racing, whatever it is. I like the stranger the better. I am one of those people that has my hobby is trying to find a hobby. So I try things and I do it for six weeks and then I realize I don't love it and I move on to something else. So I'll try anything for a little while. So I did dragon boat racing actually in Portland, and I'm trying to start that up again here. I joined the meetup group was all excited, and then a week later they said it was shutting down, the organizer had disappeared.

Debra (20:28):

Oh my god,

Kim (20:30):

God love anybody that organizes a meetup group because so far that's sort of been beyond what I've been willing to do, but I am thinking about starting my own group now.

Debra (20:40):

Wait, so what would your group be?

Kim (20:42):

So I just read an article about loneliness and fact that it is as dangerous to your health as smoking 15 cigarettes a day or drinking six drinks. And that blew my mind. And evidently in the UK they have a minister of loneliness. They've actually appointed a government position to try and fix that. You would imagine it's going to cost a lot in healthcare costs. And they do these things called glamour parties. So once a month they invite the entire community and you dress up in your best outfit and just show up to a pub.

Debra (21:17):

So you get to wear fancy clothes and have food.

Kim (21:20):

No one gets to wear fancy clothes anymore now that we don't go out and have been bring food and just talk to new people. And they are trying to start one in every village in the UK. And I thought maybe we need a glamour club in San Diego.

Debra (21:34):

I love that. Alright, if you do that, we're going to make sure that we post it up on the site here so that people can join if they want to.

Kim (21:45):

That would be amazing.

Debra (21:46):

So we're not all as brave as you, Kim. We're not all as brave. So how does one get started? If you're shy, what would be the one thing to begin?

Kim (21:58):

I mean, I think the first thing to begin is admitting that it's a goal and making it a goal for yourself instead of just saying, I wish I had actually saying that this is my goal, I think is a huge thing. And sort of just getting past that stigma that there's not something wrong with you. This happens, we get older and we all need people. And maybe one of the easiest things to do would be what led you and I to this podcast is just reach out to people you care about that you haven't talked to in a while.

Kim (22:27):

You know that you already know them, it's going to be a great conversation and it feeds you in a way that then I think can get you a little bit more brave to maybe do other things. Then I would look at do three things, whatever it is, host a party and ask everybody that you invite that you already know and love to invite one person that you don't already know. I do that every year. I host a Gallant Times's party and invite all my girlfriends and ask everybody to bring somebody. I don't know. So that's one way you can do it with a core group of people that you already know or get one of your friends that has the same goal to show up to the meetups with you. That makes it a lot easier. So there's club sports, there's a lot of things that you can do short of opening up an Airbnb in your house, which is probably the furthest you can go or start something from work. Those people, you kind of have a sense for who you, like. Our job had had a movie club. Some people go out and see horror movies together, focusing on those core interests. So you know, have something in common generally makes it a little bit easier. And seeing a movie, you don't really have to carry on a conversation that whole time. That's

Debra (23:43):

True. I have some very, very outgoing friends and they have so many friends. And so sometimes what I'll do is just ask to be part of her friend group and then I automatically have all of her friends too.

Kim (23:57):

Yes, I do hate it when you invite your friends into your friend group and open up your friend group and then they don't do the same thing. I definitely have friends that still do that and they're like, no, sorry, I'm going out with my other friends. And

Debra (24:11):

Just, you bring up a good point though. Let's talk about sort of the rules of the road. What's reciprocity what? What's good manners when you're finding new friends?

Kim (24:23):

I have tried not to think about that because for a long time I was kind of like the scorekeeper that would think that people didn't like me as much if they weren't asking me to do things. I have some very busy friends with really big jobs that I will be lucky if I see them once every five or six months. And for a while that bothered me a little bit. And then I had to realize that everybody has different schedules and different needs for human interaction and I love to plan. And so I've decided that I'm not going to keep score anymore and I'm just going to go for it. But I do think just as being a nice person, showing up, that's the other thing that happens a lot in meetup groups, I would say you usually get about 30% of the people at RSVP actually showing up. And that's a huge thing for the organizers especially. So if you're going to commit to it, commit to it and go for it and then try to, if someone really goes out on a limb and tries to be friends with you, maybe it's your job to ask for the second date.

Debra (25:27):

That's really smart. And as you're saying that during Covid, I was part of a Zoom salon group, a group of women coming together and just talking about current events. And I was ashamed to learn that many of these women, most of these women, in fact, it was a hard rule that if their friend didn't reach out to them every few days that they were not true friends. And I'm like, wow, I can really let a long time go before I reach out to folks. So that was a really helpful thing to learn that people have different expectations of staying in touch, what that means. And so I've learned to listen harder to what other people's needs are on that

Kim (26:10):

Or even just asking. I had one friend that I literally will, she lives in Nashville, I will talk to her once every six months and at one point I'm like, Hey, it just doesn't feel like we're friends anymore. And she said, why? And I said, we just never speak to each other. And she said, well, you never told me that was a requirement psychiatrist. I got to hand it to her. But I'm like, alright, that's fair. I did never tell you that was a requirement. So now I would like to speak to you once a quarter in order to maintain our friendship. And she really tries and she doesn't make it happen, but she's got little kids at home and she's in a very different place in her life than I am.

Debra (26:49):

I love that though, that you were brave enough to have that conversation.

Kim (26:53):

I did not want to. But yeah, she definitely forced. It was, I was just a little Ben out of shape and just trying to exit and she's like, hold on a second, you never told me that's important.

Debra (27:05):

Oh my gosh. What do you know now that you wish you would've known a few years ago about the nature of friendships?

Kim (27:13):

I think all of that sort of give and take and it's really hard and intimate relationships not to make it about you. And I finally figured out it's not about me and people don't wake up thinking about how they don't want to be friends with me. They just are busy. Or the fact that some things come and go in your life and I've had friends for a couple years and then they just disappear. And that used to really hurt me. And now I realize that there's a reason for those things and just much more mellow than I used to be.

Debra (27:47):

Well, in fact folks that the reason that we're talking today is that Kim out of the blue pinged me on LinkedIn and said, what are you doing? And it was so nice to see your name come up in my LinkedIn messaging. So thank you for doing that.

Kim (28:04):

Of course, I actually went to a networking class and she challenged us to reach out to five people that we cared about every day for, well one day, one person a day for a week. And that was probably the best thing I ever learned in a network. I'm not a big networker. I don't like a group of a room full of people that I don't know is my worst nightmare. I'm not that brave or outgoing, but it's a good reminder that there's a lot of people you cross over in your life that maybe you lose touch with. But I always sort of like to talk to.

Debra (28:39):

And if folks want to talk to Kim, I'm going to Kim, if it's okay with you, put your LinkedIn profile on the site so that folks can know about you and reach out to you if they're interested.

Kim (28:51):

Absolutely. I'm always looking for new friends or a job as the loneliness minister. If the US wants to get on it and start saving ourselves some healthcare dollars,

Debra (29:03):

Can I nominate you? I'm going to vote for you.

Kim (29:06):

Thank you. I think that would be amazing. Or maybe we can start in California. I actually work in mental health and nobody is talking about that and I don't understand why it's really interesting that this is an issue that we know how to cure it, but we can't figure out how to make ourselves do it.

Debra (29:23):

And I think we're so used to it. I was struck visiting Greece that people would ask me, we hear that Americans are lonely, how does that work? They really wanted to know how you could be lonely.

Kim (29:35):

Yeah, they're so connected and spend so much more time together. And our wealth as a country just really breeds isolation. And covid certainly did not help. We all retreated into our houses and I think it's still sort of hard to come back out.

Debra (29:50):

Talk about one more thing, You made a really provocative statement to me when we chatted last week about you get to a certain point in your life where you have a home and it's lovely and you have enough money that you can just sort of wall yourself off in that home and that's your life. That same day, I was listening to Warren Buffett being interviewed and he said the exact same thing. So what's in the air here, Kim?

Kim (30:24):

I hope, I mean, it's happened with a lot of my friends and I do think that you have a choice later on in life when you can make these decisions to have your life continue to get bigger or to just sort of get smaller. And I think we all need to spend time around people who aren't us. And that is the thing that the Airbnb does for me and most of my family and my friends think I'm nuts. You're letting a stranger in your house. I'm a single woman and I'm here alone. And I have never been a big rah rah. I love all people person, but I will say that after doing this for four or five years, it has been an amazing experience and that 97% of people are amazing. But I think it is good for you to, people talk about getting out of your comfort zone and that's where the growth happens. And it's absolutely true when you have to get along with someone that grew up in a completely different way and a different place and a different culture and live that close with them, it does teach you a lot. And I definitely think that we need to be mindful about making sure our lives keep getting bigger instead of smaller.

Debra (31:34):

Well, you, Kim Coutts are amazing. Thank you for joining us today.

Kim (31:38):

Thank you so much. It was so great to

Debra (31:40):

Thanks for listening to The Dareful Project. Please follow like and leave a review. It really helps. We're on all your favorite platforms, Spotify, apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, iHeartRadio, audible, tune in Amazon Music, Stitcher, SoundCloud, and YouTube. And to connect, you can email me at [email protected]. That's Debra, D-E-B-R-A at Dareful one. That's what the number one.com. Thanks for listening.

Meet Dr. Jennifer Wong, Director of the Wallis Annenberg GenSpace. GenSpace is a place--it's here in Los Angeles and offers lifelong learning to seniors in the community. But it's also a big idea. And a learning lab: how people of different ages can forge true friendships. How to keep us cur4ious and active (hint: bellydancing classes!) They're also changing the outdated national conversation around aging--how we think and talk about it. How to follow GenSpace: Facebook Instagram LinkedIn X

Guest Rabbi Judy Greenfeld explains to us how you move from a career in fitness to one of faith, what she's learned along the way and how we can begin to explore our own spiritual questions even if we've been away for a while.

https://rabbicantorjudy.org/

Welcome to season 2 of The Dareful Project: a podcast series where we learn how to reimagine our lives. In season 1, we covered a lot of ground: how to date at 67, say goodbye to an old career and invent a new one and maybe my favorite, how to roll with life.

Season 2 leans even further into the joy and messiness that comes with living deeply. It's organized roughly around the insights from Arthur Brooks' terrific book, From Strength to Strength: How We Find Success, Happiness and Purpose in the Second Half of Life. We've got an awesome line up of guests--I can't wait for you to meet them!

Look for episodes available this summer on all the platforms you love.

Please subscribe to The Dareful Project--and please give feedback on our YouTube channel or DM us at [email protected]

It starts out innocently. You post a dating profile and someone smart and funny responds. There's back and forth and they suggest moving to email. It feels like the start of a connection. Then, an urgent note: a family member needs medical care, an ex has made off with the savings, a child is stranded in another country. Even then, you're thinking, that could happen. And they need my help.

And that's how the scam starts.

One in five Americans ages 50-64 have used a dating app, including my friend Danny Kelley who's agreed to share his dating scam story with us.

Good news: there are advances—soon and on the horizon—for Alzheimer's. Learn more as we talk with Dr. Roberta Diaz Brinton, one of the world's leading experts on women and our risk of Alzheimer's disease. Dr. Brinton is director of the UA Center for Innovation in Brain Science at the University of Arizona Health Sciences. Her scientific discoveries have led to the development of innovative therapeutics to prevent, delay and treat the disease.

The Center for Innovation in Brain Science