In this episode, Chip and Gini discuss how to handle situations when the problems affecting an agency’s client relationship stem from external contacts like procurement, IT, or the sales team.

They emphasize treating client contacts as allies and not enemies, and provide strategies to navigate bureaucratic hurdles and internal politics. The discussion covers creative problem-solving techniques such as using MSAs, having biweekly calls with VPs of Sales, and understanding cultural differences. The importance of having a collaborative approach and pre-building relationships to effectively manage challenges is also highlighted. [read the transcript]

The post ALP 283: What to do when your client contact isn’t the problem appeared first on FIR Podcast Network.

We’ve all heard of AI slop by now. “Workslop” is the latest play on that term, referring to low-quality, AI-generated content in the workplace that looks professional but lacks real substance. This empty, AI-produced material often creates more work for colleagues, wasting time and hindering productivity. In the longform FIR episode for September, Neville and Shel explore the sources of workslop, how big a problem it really is, and what can be done to overcome it.

Also in this episode:

Links from this episode:

Links from Dan York’s Tech Report

The next monthly, long-form episode of FIR will drop on Monday, October 27.

We host a Communicators Zoom Chat most Thursdays at 1 p.m. ET. To obtain the credentials needed to participate, contact Shel or Neville directly, request them in our Facebook group, or email [email protected].

Special thanks to Jay Moonah for the opening and closing music.

You can find the stories from which Shel’s FIR content is selected at Shel’s Link Blog. Shel has started a metaverse-focused Flipboard magazine. You can catch up with both co-hosts on [Neville’s blog](https://www.nevillehobson.io/) and [Shel’s blog](https://holtz.com/blog/).

Disclaimer: The opinions expressed in this podcast are Shel’s and Neville’s and do not reflect the views of their employers and/or clients.

Raw Transcript

Shel Holtz:
Hi everybody, and welcome to episode number 482 of For Immediate Release. This is our long-form episode for September 2025. I’m Shel Holtz in Concord, California.

Neville Hobson:
And hi everyone, I’m Neville Hobson in the UK.

Shel Holtz:
As I mentioned, this is our long-form episode. That means we’ll be reporting on six topics of interest to communicators. Interestingly, I think all of them are connected either directly or indirectly to artificial intelligence. I also have Dan York here with an interesting report. You and I both have a few things to say about one of the topics that Dan is reporting on.

As always with our monthly episode, we have some housekeeping before we jump into the topics. Neville, you’re going to catch us up on the items we reported on since the last episode. And we have some comments on some of these reports. That’s an opportunity to remind everybody that we love your comments—please participate in this podcast by sharing them. It doesn’t have to be about something we reported on; you can introduce a topic. This used to happen all the time in the early days of the show—someone would say, “Why don’t you guys talk about this?” and we would, and it became the content of the show. So please leave a comment on the show notes or on LinkedIn—which is where most of our comments come from these days. People leave a thought or some feedback on our announcement of the new episode. You can also do that on Facebook in multiple places. And you can always go to the website and record a comment—there’s a button that says “Leave voicemail” and you can record a 90-second comment. Or send us an MP3 file to [email protected]. Lots of ways to participate in the show, and we really hope you will. We’ll share some of the comments we received in the last month, Neville, as you remind us what we talked about.

Neville Hobson:
Indeed. September was kind of an odd month because you were on holiday for two weeks and we didn’t do any live recording during that time, but we had a couple of short recordings tucked in our back pocket to publish in the interim. Let’s share what we did since the last monthly episode for August—that was on the 25th of August, episode 478. Our lead story explored when corporate silence backfires and how communicators can help leaders make better choices. We also discussed AI PR deepfakes and more, including Dan York’s report. That was a 90-minute show like this one is likely to be.

Episode 479 on the 1st of September—“Hacking AI Optimization vs. Doing the Hard Work.” Amid the rise of GEO, we discussed how brands are seeking workarounds to appear in AI-generated answers, but shortcuts don’t build trust. Old-school PR and marketing still matter. We got a comment on that one, right, Shel?

Shel Holtz:
We did, from Frank Diaz, who’s become one of our loyal listeners. He said, “This was my conclusion as well. Once I filtered everything…” He shared a checklist on mastering AI citation strategy for SEO on LinkedIn. We’ll include a link in the show notes for context.

Neville Hobson:
On the 9th of September we published episode 480, “Reflections on AI Ethics and the Role of Communicators.” You had already gone on holiday. This was a conversation between Sylvia Cambie—who was a guest co-host back in July when we interviewed Monsignor Paul Tighe from the Vatican about artificial intelligence—and me. We picked up where that interview left off with reflections on AI dignity, what really matters, and what caught our attention. Interestingly, that episode got more listens and downloads than the interview itself—perhaps because people were catching up after summer.

Episode 481 on the 24th of September—so you can see a nearly two-week gap there—“The M-Panic: AI Writing and Misguided Assumptions. Can Tone and Authenticity Survive AI Polish?” We dove into the “M-kerfuffle” that’s had communicators divided much of this year. You also explained how you turned 28 blog posts into a forthcoming book with AI’s help—classic AI-assisted writing in action. We had comments too, didn’t we?

Shel Holtz:
We did. Daniel Pauling wrote that the dash doesn’t solely come from training data—a point I’d made, saying the reason you see so many dashes is because the training sets include a lot of dash-heavy content. Daniel said it also comes from how generative AI is programmed to be more friendly and what it associates with friendliness. He referenced a post where he went into detail—we’ll include that link. John Cass had a thoughtful comment about how writing wasn’t rigid in the 17th century—Shakespeare even spelled his name multiple ways—arguing that language is a visual representation of speech and we should speak the language of our audience, not the textbook. He suggested anxiety around AI and writing often comes from our best writers, but human creativity is collective. I noted that Chris Penn recently wrote that AI won’t hurt creativity because creative people will keep creating. We saw that on a cruise art auction: people bidding thousands on works by young artists. The creative impulse persists. John replied that’s true, though some high-level creatives feel AI disrupts their thinking—maybe true for a few people; not everyone thinks the same way.

Neville Hobson:
Good essay-comment from John. And between all of that we recorded a new interview just before you went away—Stephanie Grober in New York, quite an authority on GEO—Generative Engine Optimization. The anchor for the conversation was: is GEO the next SEO, a passing fad, or good comms practice in disguise? We talked about what GEO means for communicators today and what to do about it. That was published on the 16th of September. So we had five podcast episodes since August—not bad, considering you were away half the month.

Shel Holtz:
Not bad at all. We are a content machine. And that machine continues with Circle of Fellows—the monthly panel among IABC Fellows. I was at sea for this one; Brad Whitworth moderated a discussion about what it means for communicators that hybrid appears to be winning as the preferred workplace configuration. Priya Bates, Ritzi Ronquillo, and Angela Sinickas participated. It’s up on the FIR Podcast Network.

The October episode sounds great: number 121. I’ll moderate at noon Eastern on Thursday, October 23. The topic: evolving roles and strategic goals. The description from Anna Willey: communicators are adapting alongside new tools and channels; strategic goals must align with organizational objectives as they impact brand reputation, enhance internal communications, and address ongoing change. Panelists so far: Lori Dawkins, Amanda Hamilton-Atwell, and Mike Klein, with a fourth to be named. You can join live and participate or catch the podcast. That wraps up our housekeeping—we managed to do it in less than 13 minutes. Right after this, we’ll be back with our Topics of the Month.

Neville Hobson:
Our first topic for September: Throughout this year we’ve returned again and again to one central theme—AI must be about people, not just machines. Whether we were talking about the future of work, managers’ roles in an AI-enabled world, or the Vatican’s perspective on AI ethics (“the wisdom of the heart” in our July interview with Monsignor Paul Tighe), the question has been the same: How do we ensure technology serves humanity rather than the other way around?

That’s the context for Chris Heuer’s latest work. Chris is an internet pioneer and serial entrepreneur—many of you will know him from the Social Media Club nonprofit he founded in the early days of social media, which reached 350 cities globally. Building on an online brainstorm Chris led on September 17—more than 50 people connected worldwide to discuss defining human-centered organizations, which I joined and wrote about on LinkedIn—Chris has published a follow-up titled “The Birth of the H-Corp” (H for humanity). It’s a bold attempt to define what organizations owe humanity in the age of AI.

The central concern: efficiency has become the dominant corporate narrative. He cites Shopify’s CEO saying managers must prove why AI can’t do the job before hiring another human. We referenced that in an FIR episode this summer. That kind of AI-first thinking risks eroding human dignity. Chris argues for an alternative: organizations must enable humans rather than replace them, reinvest AI gains back into people, and make empathy and ethics structural rather than optional.

What’s powerful is the recognition of tensions—for example, how AI can hollow out junior roles and undermine leadership pipelines. Participants flagged cultural sovereignty—the idea that AI shouldn’t just reflect Silicon Valley’s worldview but the diversity of human society. Chris’s goal is to draft an H-Corp manifesto later this year—likely November—likening this to the naming moment of social media: a concept that crystallizes shared ambitions and sparks a broader movement. It won’t be perfect, but it could serve as a north star for organizations that want to put human flourishing at the center of AI adoption.

For communicators, this is an important conversation: How do we frame the internal narrative so AI isn’t just about productivity and cost-cutting, but about augmenting human potential? How do we give shape to something like H-Corp so it doesn’t remain an ideal but becomes practical reality? It’s not about resisting AI or slowing progress; it’s about making deliberate choices so organizations put people at the center of change. Will communicators, leaders, and organizations seize the opportunity to shape AI for human flourishing—or let the technology shape us by default? Could H-Corp become a rallying concept as ESG or CSR did—or will it get diluted into corporate sloganeering? What role should communicators play to keep it real and practical? I bet you’ve got ideas.

Shel Holtz:
Of course—otherwise why would we be here? First, I think AI is less responsible for this situation than the general nature of business, especially in a capitalist society. I’m not going to get philosophical about capitalism—I’m a proud capitalist. I like making money and would like to make more. If the goal of an organization—especially a public corporation with fiduciary responsibilities—is to earn a return for investors, then when AI comes along it makes complete sense that leaders ask, “How does this help us maximize returns?” Reducing costs and staff and having a machine work 24/7—of course that’s where leaders go first. It doesn’t mean that’s what organizations should do, but I get why they do it.

Also, with any new technology, the first thing we do is what we were already doing—but better. The earliest uses no one had thought of come later. I don’t think generative AI has been around long enough for that next phase yet. We’re still using it to do what we’ve been doing; later we’ll discover new, more human-centered applications. For some organizations that will come; for others, it won’t—they’ll stay focused on maximizing profit.

Another issue: most organizations aren’t tackling AI strategically in its early days. There’s ample data showing people aren’t looking at this holistically. I was just talking at my company about the entry-level construction job—project engineer. Much of that role may be automated. Submittals, for example, take time and expertise; AI could produce them in minutes with the right inputs. Does that mean fewer project engineers? Our conversation was: how do we redefine the role so they still learn what they need to move up—project manager, project director, superintendent, whatever? The job won’t be the same, but it remains foundational. Same in communications: the entry-level comms role won’t be the same job in five years. Does the job go away—or do we rethink it? Smart organizations will rethink it—that’s a humanistic approach because we’re not dispensing with the role; we’re redefining it.

Neville Hobson:
It’s a big topic. I don’t disagree that some companies will shut their eyes to anything beyond “we use this to make money.” But the conversation—at the heart of what Chris is talking about—is helping organizations see the people. Language matters, too—how we talk about “replacing” versus “augmenting” can devalue human work.

Another argument from the brainstorm: human-centered talk often defaults to privileged voices and excludes marginalized groups. There’s a perception that there’s one version of AI—English, global north. What about the global south? Some countries have launched Spanish-language chatbots relevant to their populations; ChatGPT may not be the relevant tool for them. We should stimulate conversations in organizations: “Yes, but think about this as well.” That can create discord, but it’s necessary.

This idea is worth promoting: don’t devalue people. Put them first. Yes, aim for profit—but how do we help our people help us make that profit? People suffer in change; they’re often last in line when tech is deployed. Let’s bring empathy back into organizations. The landscape is changing at light speed—new capabilities, “pulse” updates to mobiles, etc. I think Chris Heuer’s offering could become a rallying concept. With influential voices like the Vatican and others globally, maybe it gathers steam.

Shel Holtz:
It could. My skepticism is about incentives. Leaders are obliged to produce maximum returns. How do we connect the dots so they see something in this change aligned with their goals? That’s what I want to see in the manifesto—most manifestos dwell on what’s wrong and not how to fix it.

Neville Hobson:
Right—so the H-Corp manifesto expected in November becomes the template to address those questions: how do we include X, Y, Z? I sensed a groundswell of willingness on the Sept. 17 call. It’s a small group; getting the word out may persuade others to get involved. You’ve got to start somewhere. This could be a rallying concept.

Shel Holtz:
I’ll predict that in November this will be a theme for one of our FIR episodes.

Neville Hobson:
Maybe we interview someone—perhaps Chris.

Shel Holtz:
Could be Chris.

Neville Hobson:
If this strikes a chord, go to the Humanizing AI Substack (link in show notes), read Chris’s post introducing the H-Corp manifesto, and see if you want to get involved. It’s open—share ideas and see what happens.

Shel Holtz:
One thread running through much of our coverage is how digital tech is reshaping organizational communication, minute by minute. Three new reports over the last couple of weeks are fascinating on their own; together they create a big picture communicators must grapple with.

First: a major new study of enterprise social media (internal platforms like Slack, Teams, Viva Engage). Researchers studied 99 organizations adopting Microsoft Viva Engage (which grew out of Yammer). Enterprise social media made communication networks denser, more connected, and more democratic. Employees didn’t just talk to the same people—they formed new ties, especially weak ties across teams that spark ideas. Leaders and employees connected more directly, and influence was more distributed. Viva Engage, unlike siloed Teams channels, enables more open conversations around broader themes. This change breaks down silos and fosters innovation—critical when hybrid/remote work can leave people isolated.

Second: Boston Consulting Group estimates more than 80% of corporate affairs work, including communication, could be augmented or even automated by AI. The biggest gains come when organizations redesign processes around AI—not just bolt it on. For communicators: think proactively not just about writing faster, but re-imagining workflows with AI in the mix.

Third: VoxEU points to a serious risk: as AI makes it easier and cheaper to produce plausible misinformation, the value of trusted, credible information goes up—externally and internally. If employees can’t tell what’s credible—about competitors, market conditions, or even their own company—their decision-making is compromised. If misinformation creeps into internal channels, it can spread quickly through the very networks making us more connected.

Put together: enterprise social media can make networks open and innovative, but they’re vulnerable if we don’t ensure accuracy and trust. Hovering over that is BCG’s reminder that AI will disrupt a huge portion of what communicators do. The challenge: if we don’t take responsibility for credibility and quality, AI will amplify misinformation and mistrust. The opportunity: use AI thoughtfully to improve connection and personalization while leaning into our role as stewards of trusted information. Connection without credibility is fragile; credibility without connection is limited. Our job is to deliver both.

Neville Hobson:
Big challenge. The VoxEU report on AI misinformation and trusted news stood out. One interesting finding: once misinformation was identified, people didn’t disengage—they consumed more. Treated individuals were more likely to maintain subscriptions months later. The report’s conclusion: when the threat of misinformation becomes salient, the value of credible news increases. How do you put that in place inside an organization?

Shel Holtz:
I remember my first corporate comms job at ARCO. Our weekly employee paper had bylines so employees knew who to call with story ideas. Bylines also establish credible sources—names employees learn to trust. As networks flood with information, people will gravitate to known credible voices. The same is true externally with content marketing: put a person behind the content so audiences recognize trustworthy outputs. We’ll need to build credibility with our reporters, thought leaders, and SMEs—internally and externally—so they become beacons of trust amid misinformation.

Neville Hobson:
VoxEU (focused on media) says if outlets maintain trust, the rise of synthetic content becomes an opportunity: as trust grows scarcer, its value rises, and audiences may be more willing to pay. Translate internally: employees won’t “pay,” but they will give attention to reliable, trustworthy writing—especially when the author is identified and credible. That seems like common sense.

Shel Holtz:
Agreed. Some employees don’t care what’s going on; they just do their job and go home. But if they’re overwhelmed with plausible-sounding contradictions, internal communications can become the trusted voice. People who didn’t pay attention before may start following channels and authors they’ve come to trust—if we consistently produce credible content.

Neville Hobson:
One line from VoxEU’s conclusion fits perfectly: the threshold to trustworthiness rises with the volume and sophistication of misinformation, meaning media outlets can’t stand still; they must continually invest in helping readers distinguish fact from fabrication, keeping pace with AI. Fits internally, too.

Shel Holtz:
Combine that with the other two reports: use enterprise social networks as channels for credible information and conversation, and use the BCG disruption to redefine our work so our time remains valuable even as 80% of tasks change.

Neville Hobson:
Okay, another buzzword: “work slop”—content that looks polished but is shallow or misleading, created with AI and dumped on colleagues to sort out. Harvard Business Review argued work slop is a major reason companies aren’t seeing ROI from AI; 40% of employees are dealing with it. But there’s a critique in Pivot to AI saying the data came from an unfiltered BetterUp survey—calling HBR’s article an unlabeled advertorial that shifts blame onto workers while pitching enterprise tools.

So two threads: “work slop” is a brilliant label for a real problem; but some coverage may itself be work slop. Questions: Is work slop a real productivity killer or just a catchy buzzword? What responsibility lies with leadership vs. employees? And how should we treat research that blurs into marketing?

Shel Holtz:
I think it’s real, though I don’t know that it’s as dire as painted. The first time I saw “work slop” was from Ethan Mollick on LinkedIn. He echoed Pivot to AI’s point: the term can shift blame onto employees told to “be more productive with AI” without leaders doing the hard work of rethinking processes or defining good use. Poor output becomes “AI’s fault”—that’s not leadership. For communicators, we should advocate responsible AI use from the top down, not just coach employees to cope.

Also, this is new-tech déjà vu. Remember desktop publishing? Suddenly every department cranked out a newsletter—because they could. It created information overload until companies set guidelines. Today, many orgs haven’t offered training, guidance, or frameworks for AI. People are experimenting—good!—but without prompt skills or evaluation skills, they’ll create work slop. We’ll see a lot of it until organizations get strategic about AI and define expectations and verification. We even did an episode on “verification” becoming a role—someone checking outputs for accuracy and credibility. We’ll see if that shakes out, but that’s where work slop comes from. I don’t think it’s a long-term problem; it will resolve like the 86 departmental newsletters did.

Neville Hobson:
How do we address the eruption of AI-generated content? Even if it isn’t outright wrong, it’s too much to read—hurting productivity.

Shel Holtz:
Organizations need a strategic approach. Our CEO often says there will be a day the switch flips; if you’re not ready, you’re irrelevant. The orgs allowing prodigious work slop haven’t reached—or acted on—that conclusion. They need governance, training, and clear “assist vs. automate” boundaries.

Neville Hobson:
Thanks very much, Dan—terrific report. TypePad caught my attention. I was on TypePad from 2004, moved to WordPress in 2006, kept TypePad as an archive until 2021. Interesting—and urgent—to hear it’s ending. Migration is easy except images; that’s not trivial. I know three people still on TypePad with no idea the door’s about to shut. Good callout.

Shel Holtz:
I was never a TypePad user, but many early influential blogs were there—Heather Armstrong’s Dooce, PostSecret, Freakonomics before it became a podcast. We’ve been doing this long enough to cover birth, life, and death.

Neville Hobson:
We have. Dan also mentioned Mastodon introducing commenting—probably a big deal. I’m not hugely active there. What do you think?

Shel Holtz:
I still have a Mastodon instance—interested to dig in. I was more intrigued by the Vimeo item. They’ve struggled to define a niche in YouTube’s world—often pitching private, high-quality business video hosting. I still get pitched. But one constant headache in internal comms is getting the right message to the right people. If you’ve ever sent a company-wide update because you weren’t sure who needed it—or spent hours hunting down the right list—you know the pain.

That’s why a research paper from Amazon’s Reliability and Maintenance Engineering team caught my eye: “An explainable natural language framework for identifying and notifying target audiences in enterprise communication.” In plain terms: a system that lets you ask in natural language who should get your message, then the AI not only finds the audience but explains how it got there.

Example: “Reach all maintenance technicians working with VendorX’s conveyor belts at European sites.” The system parses that, queries a knowledge graph of equipment, people, and locations, and returns the audience—with reasoning (“here’s how we matched VendorX… here’s how we identified European facilities…”). Explainability is critical; in safety contexts you can’t trust a black box.

Implications: we struggle with over- and under-communication. We over-broadcast because we don’t trust lists; we miss people who need the info. A framework like this could make targeting as easy as writing a sentence—with transparency you can trust. It mirrors marketing’s move from “Hi, {FirstName}” to real context-aware personalization. Employees aren’t different from customers: they don’t want spam; they want relevant comms.

Challenges: privacy concerns about graphing people and work, the need to validate reasoning, and data quality (titles, records). But it’s a blueprint for rethinking audience targeting—imagine HR or IT change comms targeting precisely with explainability. It’s research, not a product yet, but communicators should watch this closely.

Neville Hobson:
Good explanation. I couldn’t find a simple one online—Amazon’s site doesn’t surface it well. Amusingly, an AI Overview explained it best, which is a good illustration of why traditional search is fading. My question: is this live at Amazon?

Shel Holtz:
I don’t think so—it’s a framework for consideration. Presumably they’d build it for Amazon first, then maybe market or license it. If you’ve worked in internal comms, you know targeting is hard; the info you need often isn’t accessible. This gives you the ability to do it—and verify it. I can’t wait to try it someday.

Neville Hobson:
Calendar marker set. Share that AI Overview with me—I’ll screenshot it.

Shel Holtz:
Copy and paste works, too.

Neville Hobson:
In recent episodes we’ve explored how the press release keeps reinventing itself. Far from dead, it moved from media distribution to SEO—and now, according to Sarah Evans (partner and head of PR at Zen Media), into a generative-AI visibility engine. In a long read, she describes testing a press release about Zen Media acquiring Optimum7, distributed via GlobeNewswire, then tracking how it was picked up not just by news outlets but by AI systems like ChatGPT, Perplexity, and Meta AI. Within six hours, ChatGPT cited it 40 times; Meta’s external agents 17 times; Perplexity Bot and Applebot twice. Evans said there were 61 documented AI mentions in total in that period.

Implications: press releases aren’t just reaching journalists or Google—they’re feeding AI systems people use to ask questions and make decisions. The key metric becomes: is it retrievable when AI is asked a critical question in our space?

We’ve covered this angle a few times—from “Is PR dead (again)?” to the reinvention of releases for algorithms—and now this: the release as a tool for persistent retrievability and authority in the age of AI. If AI engines are the new gatekeepers, how should communicators rethink writing and measurement? What do you think, Shel?

Shel Holtz:
I’m glad you’re citing Sarah Evans—she’s terrific. We should invite her on the interview show. In another post—“10 PR myths I’m seeing”—she debunks “Press releases don’t matter.” She says they matter more than ever. We’re seeing early results with releases averaging about 285 citations in ChatGPT within 30 days. That suggests LLMs treat press releases as credible sources—especially when picked up in reputable places.

She also talks structured information. Gini Dietrich recently suggested having a page on your site not linked anywhere—meant for AI crawlers—with structured/markdown versions of the content so AI can better understand and apply it. Bottom line: press releases aren’t going anywhere. Every time someone proclaims them dead, they persist. (Side rant: embargoes aren’t real unless we agreed in advance.)

Neville Hobson:
I ranted about embargoes recently too. One question: what does retrievability mean for communicators? If AI engines, not journalists or search engines, arbitrate visibility, how do PR teams measure success differently? Are AI citations more valuable than traditional pickups?

Shel Holtz:
Both are valuable. Search has declined, but not to zero—not even to 50%. People still search. Some haven’t adopted AI for search; some queries are better served by ten links than an overview. (When we were in Rome, I searched for restaurants open before 7 p.m.—classic Google links job.) Sarah Evans’s myth list also says “Choose traditional or modern PR” is false—the strongest strategies use a dual pathway. As Mitch Joel says, “and,” not “instead of.”

Neville Hobson:
Worth reading Sarah’s Substack—and the link you’ll put in the notes—to make you think.

Shel Holtz:
Absolutely. I’ll probably be doing a press release in the next week or two—can’t say more, but it’s coming. One more debate: how people actually use AI. Ethan Mollick argues people lean on AI for higher-level cognitive tasks—framing, sense-making, brainstorming—rather than just automating grunt work. Recent usage studies from OpenAI and Anthropic offer fresh data.

OpenAI’s analysis of ChatGPT usage shows augmentation—writing, editing, summarizing, brainstorming, decision support. “Asking” (decision support) has become the largest slice—aligning with “thinking partner.” Anthropic paints a different enterprise picture for Claude: businesses use it chiefly to automate workflows, coding, math-heavy tasks, document processing, and reporting pipelines. Automation exceeds augmentation; some quantify ~three-quarters of enterprise use as automation patterns.

Zooming out, Forbes’s overview with OpenAI, Anthropic, and Ipsos notes adoption is broadening fast, trust is uneven, and behaviors vary by context. ZDNet frames it succinctly: ChatGPT is mostly used for writing and decision support (often non-work or para-work tasks), while Claude skews toward structured enterprise automation—coding and back-office flows.

So where does that leave Mollick’s claim? Both realities are true depending on the user and context. Among general knowledge workers, AI is a thinking companion; among engineering/operations teams and API-wired apps, AI acts as an automation substrate.

Implications for communicators:

AI is in the room at the idea stage—become editors, synthesizers, and standard-setters.

Automation is marching into comms-adjacent workflows—govern quality, provenance, and accountability.

Don’t pick a side; design for both—declare the “assist vs. automate” boundary, instrument the pipeline with checks and tags, build a “thinking partner” prompt bench, and mind the labor story by narrating changes transparently.

Neville Hobson:
Good advice. ZDNet’s split between personal and non-personal use was interesting. I’m a mixed user—lots of research that’s kind of work-related. I use ChatGPT mostly; not Claude lately. One note: I used ChatGPT for coding when I rebuilt my website on Ghost—editing theme templates with Handlebars. ChatGPT was astonishingly good—especially after GPT-5—at brainstorming workarounds and generating CSS/JS tweaks that worked perfectly on first publish. Claude also pinpointed issues following theme dev instructions. For a non-coder, that was huge confidence. These tools were brilliant alongside Docker and VS Code. I’m impressed.

Shel Holtz:
No question ChatGPT does very well with code; all frontier LLMs do. Claude currently tops some benchmarks (SWE-Bench, HumanEval, etc.) and is marketed heavily to developers, with strong APIs and tool integrations. OpenAI pushes ChatGPT more broadly—consumer and enterprise—so you see “what should I wear tonight?” and recipes alongside enterprise tasks. I’ve read that Gen Z uses AI to make basic day-to-day decisions—fascinating.

Neville Hobson:
The report says ChatGPT usage hit 700 million weekly users as of July. Growth is relatively faster in low- and middle-income countries. Early users were ~80% men; now about 48%, with more active users having typically feminine first names (their method). Useful metrics—but what does it mean to the average communicator? Hopefully they don’t walk away thinking “ChatGPT is only for coding.”

Shel Holtz:
Right—the point is not either/or. There are two valid use modes—collaborative and automated. Provide resources, tools, policies, guardrails, and governance so people can use both modes effectively. You can’t have a Wild West; you need standards you can support. But beware of swinging too far. I spoke to a company restricting staff to an internal AI that can’t do what NotebookLM does—hamstringing themselves. Organizations need to be pragmatic.

And that will wrap up episode 482, our long-form episode for September 2025.

Neville Hobson:
Market conditions will impact that approach, I bet. Okay.

Shel Holtz:
Right now we’re planning to record our long-form October episode on Saturday the 25th or Sunday the 26th—depends on Neville’s schedule. Either works for me. That episode will drop Monday, October 27. We’ll have short mid-week episodes in between, maybe even an interview—we’re lining up one or two. Until then, that will be a 30 for this episode of For Immediate Release.

The post FIR #482: What Will It Take to Stop the Slop? appeared first on FIR Podcast Network.

As hybrid work transitions from pandemic necessity to permanent business strategy, communication professionals face a dual challenge that’s reshaping the entire profession. Not only must they master the art of reaching and engaging a distributed workforce scattered across home offices, co-working spaces, and traditional workplaces, but they must also learn to function effectively as hybrid communication teams themselves.

In the September Circle of Fellows panel, four IABC Fellows and moderator Brad Whitworth, SCMP, IABC Fellow, will explore both sides of the hybrid communication equation. You’ll discover strategies for creating inclusive, impactful messaging that resonates equally with remote and in-office employees, avoiding the common pitfall of defaulting to those who are physically present. The panel will share proven approaches for maintaining a consistent brand voice and organizational culture when your audience is experiencing your company in fundamentally different ways.

Equally important, the discussion will delve into the operational realities of leading communication teams in a hybrid environment. Learn how to foster collaboration and creativity when your team members may never be in the same room, how to maintain the strategic thinking and relationship-building that drive communication excellence, and how to ensure that hybrid work enhances rather than hampers your team’s ability to serve the organization.

Whether you’re leading a fully distributed team, managing hybrid operations, or advising executives on how to communicate with their own hybrid workforces, this conversation will provide practical frameworks and real-world insights from communication professionals who are successfully navigating this new reality.

About the panel:

Priya Bates is a senior communication executive who provides strategic internal communication counsel in order to ensure leaders, managers, and employees understand the strategy, believe in the vision, act in accordance with the values, and contribute to business results. She is president of Inner Strength Communications in Toronto and previously served as senior director of Internal Communications at Loblaw Companies Limited.

Ritzi Villarico-Ronquillo, APR, IABC Fellow, is a Fellow of the International Association of Business Communicators (IABC), an Accredited in Public Relations professional, and a senior leader in Philippine organizations and in IABC. She held key roles as VP for Communication and Corporate Affairs in the manufacturing sector, and was PR Head for Communication and Publications, Advertising and Special Events, and General Public Programs in the energy sector. A multi-awarded communication professional, she has experience across corporate, community, associations, advocacy, and academia. With more than four decades of experience to date, she is a consultant, adjunct faculty, professional lecturer, training professional, speaker, and mentor on communication and public relations in prestigious educational institutions in the Philippines. She is a graduate of the country’s national university, the University of the Philippines’ College of Media and Communication, a center of excellence in the field. She is a contributing columnist of PR Matters, a weekly column of IPRA Philippines in the Business Mirror, a national broadsheet and online news platform.

Angela Sinickas is the founder of Sinickas Communications, which has worked with companies, organizations, and governments in 32 countries on six continents. Her clients include 25% of the Forbes Top 100 largest global companies. Before starting her own consulting firm, she held positions from editor to vice president in for-profit and government organizations and worked as a senior consultant and practice leader at Hewitt and Mercer. She is the author of a manual, How to Measure Your Communication Programs (now in its third edition), and chapters in several books. Her 150+ articles in professional journals can be found on her website, www.sinicom.com. Her work has been recognized with 21 international-level Gold Quill Awards from IABC, plus her firm was named IABC Boutique Agency of the Year in 2015. She holds a BS degree in Journalism from the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign and an MS in Leadership from Northeastern University.

The post Circle of Fellows #120: Hybrid is Winning. What Does That Mean for Communicators? appeared first on FIR Podcast Network.

In this short midweek episode, Neville and Shel dive into one of the hottest debates in communication today: what happens to tone and authenticity when artificial intelligence steps into the writing process? From the surprisingly heated arguments over the humble em-dash to fresh research on AI’s “stylometric fingerprints,” we explore whether polished AI-assisted prose risks losing the human voice that builds trust. Along the way, we look at how publishers like Business Insider are normalizing AI for first drafts, how communicators are redefining authenticity, and how Shel used AI to turn years of blog posts into a forthcoming book.

Links from this episode:

The next monthly, long-form episode of FIR will drop on Monday, September 29.

We host a Communicators Zoom Chat most Thursdays at 1 p.m. ET. To obtain the credentials needed to participate, contact Shel or Neville directly, request them in our Facebook group, or email [email protected].

Special thanks to Jay Moonah for the opening and closing music.

You can find the stories from which Shel’s FIR content is selected at Shel’s Link Blog. Shel has started a metaverse-focused Flipboard magazine. You can catch up with both co-hosts on [Neville’s blog](https://www.nevillehobson.io/) and [Shel’s blog](https://holtz.com/blog/).

Disclaimer: The opinions expressed in this podcast are Shel’s and Neville’s and do not reflect the views of their employers and/or clients.

Raw Transcript

Shel Holtz (00:01)

@nevillehobson (00:08)

Do we risk losing individuality, nuance and trust if everything starts to sound the same? We’ll talk about that right after this.

It’s a debate playing out among communicators. This year, the humble M-dash has become a flashpoint. Some insist that overusing M-dashes is a dead giveaway of AI altered text. Others push back saying that’s nonsense and unfairly stigmatizes a perfectly good mark of punctuation. Washington Post ran a feature in April with the headline, Some people think AI writing has a tell. The M-dash writers disagree. Then in August, Brian Phillips wrote a lyrical defense in the ringer.

pleading, stop AI shaming our precious kindly M-Dashes, please. And McSweeney’s even joined him as satire, publishing the M-Dash response to the AI allegations written from the dashes own point of view. That is really, really very amusing, worth a read. The fact that such debates exists highlights how sensitive people are to the signals of authenticity in writing. Fresh research in 2025 suggests this is more than speculation.

Some recent studies show that AI leaves stylometric fingerprints in writing that can be detected, raising questions about authorship and voice. A stylometric fingerprint is the unique combination of statistical linguistic features within a piece of text that identifies its author much like a human fingerprint. AI can make writing clearer and more polished but risks homogenizing style and raising ethical questions. Beyond academia, commentators argue that polished words without voice

risk-leaving communication hollow. And while researchers are busy analyzing stylometry and psycholinguistics, communicators are having a very different kind of debate about punctuation. So while academics study the fingerprints AI leaves on writing, the popular imagination has latched onto something much simpler, the punctuation choices we make. The M-debate may be tongue in cheek, but it speaks to a serious point.

How sensitive we’ve become to the signals of authenticity in text right down to a single line on the page. For communicators, the challenge is not whether to use AI, that ship has sailed, but how to preserve authenticity when tone shifting tools are in the mix. The call to action is to define what authenticity means in your context, decide which writing tasks AI should support, and ensure human voice and accountability remain front and center.

In the end, and authenticity aren’t about perfectly polished words. They’re about whether people believe there’s a human voice and accountability behind the message. Your thoughts, Shale?

Shel Holtz (03:19)

@nevillehobson (03:28)

Shel Holtz (03:49)

When I was in college, I had a part-time job setting type. Yeah, I’m old enough that I actually set type. And I remember learning when to use the ⁓ dash based on the copy that I was transcribing into typeset. And there were a lot of them, even back then, when most people were still working on typewriters. So I think this notion that it’s a tell is ridiculous.

It’s, as you quoted somebody saying, a perfectly serviceable bit of punctuation. But let’s go beyond this notion of punctuation. mean, leave it to communicators where we have some really weighty issues to deal with that we’re going to spend most of our time talking about punctuation. I think this is one of the reasons leaders don’t take communicators very seriously. They’re thinking about business decisions and we’re thinking about

⁓ letting and kerning and things like that. We really need to get more focused on business outcomes and how communication and the use of AI contributes to that. This is what the Business Insider has done. Business Insider, I don’t know if you saw this, it’s a very recent announcement, have ⁓ officially given permission to their journalists to use AI to write the first drafts of their articles. They were already…

@nevillehobson (05:44)

Shel Holtz (05:47)

fewer people to crank out more stories. And if you can get it done faster by having AI generate a first draft, you then go in and fact check and clean up and apply your own writing to, I’ve done this, I’ve done first drafts in AI. And by the time I’m done rewriting, it’s a completely different piece. Still took me about an hour and a half less than it would have if I had had to sit there and write the first draft. I don’t do that for every kind of

article or other material that I need to produce, but on some things it just makes sense and it makes life easier. But the other reason I think Business Insider decided to go down this road is because AI is getting better at producing these kinds of drafts and it’s going to continue to get better. In the world of business, and I’m sure you’ve had this experience Neville, I know I have, is outside of the world of

communication when you are dealing with people in other parts of the business. And I don’t mean this in any sort of pejorative way. This is not an insult. These people are brilliant when it comes to the areas of specialization that are the focus of their jobs. But they can’t write their way out of a wet paper bag. They’re terrible, terrible writers. And if using AI can help them write a memo, write an email, write a report, write an article,

better than they could have on their own, I think we’re at a point where that’s fine. And as I say, it’s going to continue to improve. If AI can generate a good first draft now, how many months or years before it can generate the good final draft? I heard Casey Newton talking about this on Hartford saying, yeah, maybe ⁓ there’s not going to be work for us journalists anymore when the AI can write all the drafts.

don’t think that’s necessarily the case because the research still involves talking to people and that sort of thing. the writing with AI is getting to the point where I think this is a very transitive conversation that we’re having about authenticity and human writing. think AI is fully capable of doing this in a lot of circumstances and we need to stop our hand wringing about it and figure out how to do it well.

So that it produces the best results we can possibly deliver for our clients and our companies

@nevillehobson (08:50)

voices more than grammar, for instance, AI can clean up text, sure, it can improve text. And you could argue that’s a subjective way, phrase, improve. Others might not see it as improvement. And therein, you get into rabbit holes, without question, which is where we’re at in a lot of this, I think. But AI can clean up text. But I think authenticity demonstrates itself through word choices, rhythm.

even the imperfections. I did something the other day that ChatGPT5 assisted me with, and I thought about this when I mentioned that. Did I assist it or did it assist? No, it assisted me because I asked it to do things. And I noted, kind of taken aback slightly, that on the first draft of what it did, it told me what it was going to do. And it said, I’m going to give this to you in your tone of voice.

And it did. And I read this, goodness, I could have written this myself. And that did take me back a bit. Maybe I’d not noticed that before. But that example also prompted a lot of my thinking into leading up to this discussion today. Because tone ⁓ and authenticity or rather tone, yeah, I mean, it is authenticity.

even though the debate is still there about what defines authenticity, I’ve had discussion that with lot of people is what do mean authentic? What does that actually mean? And it means different things to different people. I think this discussion or debate or whatever we might call describe it is likely to be one of those never ending ones, the dash, you mentioned the Oxford comma, that’s been around for decades, it’s still a major issue for some people. But being clear on this,

And for the reasons I think are quite clear, you mentioned, you know, the large language models, they scrape all this stuff off the off the internet, and it’s got m dashes in, it’s got all this stuff. No one really noticed that until recently. Most people don’t even think about that. I see writing and I even used to use this where I didn’t do m dashes, because that’s not in my background of writing. I do, for instance, on a keyboard.

using WordPerfect back in the day, I might do double hyphen that would convert that into an M dash. I never thought of that even, I didn’t even think about, hey, that’s an M dash, I didn’t even notice. So I don’t like M dashes, actually, the formal way people use them, or the historical way which I see AI doing the same, you got a word, there’s another word, and there’s an M dash in between, and then they’re touching the word. I don’t like it. I don’t like the look of it. So I don’t use M dashes, I use N dashes mostly.

when I do my writing. So this looks neater in my mind and I don’t care about it’s some ⁓ grammar geek is looking at that thing here that alters the meaning of what you’ve written. No, it doesn’t.

Shel Holtz (12:19)

just to point out when I was doing typesetting, and I don’t remember what the rules were because I was 19 at the time, but there were definitely rules about the M dash is used in these conditions and the M dash in those conditions. I don’t remember what they were, but they existed.

@nevillehobson (12:22)

I know,

of course there are rules, of course there are rules. So, but today in 2025, we’re looking at something that is, I guess, out of out of anyone’s control. Now, this this thing will evolve the language. I’m pretty certain of that, particularly. And typically we talk about the English language. The same thing applies in other languages, but English language as the world’s most spoken language.

meaning not native, it doesn’t matter, second language, third language doesn’t matter. It’s different everywhere. And so the rules are shifting. So, you know, I look at ⁓ the economist guides, the APs guide and all this, and indeed, I’ve got a copy of the AP guide from 15 years ago. don’t think anyone follows that now. It’s different. It’s different what you see now. So the ⁓ the web we’re at now is ⁓ beyond ⁓

can you say the the use of AI? I mean, it’s a given, as I mentioned in my intro, whether to use AI that ship has sailed long time ago. But we’re talking about preserving authenticity that exercises a lot of people in right, hence the criticism. I did read a piece by ⁓ I’ve forgotten who it was. It might have been Anne Handley, I think might have been the grammar girl actually talking about this recently. That’s right, right, exactly.

Shel Holtz (14:00)

@nevillehobson (14:04)

Shel Holtz (14:28)

I recently finished the first draft of a book. people who have been following writing. Oh, no, I’ve finished lots and lots of books reading, no, writing. This is a book on employee communication. And it is based on a series of 28 blog posts I wrote based on a framework I developed about 10 or 11 years ago.

@nevillehobson (14:39)

Right, okay.

Shel Holtz (14:58)

And I was listening to Chris Penn talk about how he did a book that Amazon could not challenge him that it was his, even though he leaned heavily on AI for the work. I didn’t do what he did because I already had a first draft with those blog posts, but I adapted his concept. So here’s what I did. I first created a very hefty document that contained a lot of what I have written.

⁓ I still had PDFs of a couple of the books I had written before. I had all of my blog posts, ⁓ many, many articles, this type of thing, even transcripts from some FIR episodes. And I put them in a PDF. And then I created a document ⁓ that said, these are approaches I take to writing. These are words and phrases that I use. I do a lot of parenthetical statements.

And here are things that AI tends to do in writing that I never do and don’t do any of this. And then I created a gem over on Gemini called Write Like Shell. And I loaded both of those documents into it. This was just for this book. And then chapter by chapter, and I started off by giving it the instruction that I’ve got 28 blog posts. I need to turn them into chapters of a business book.

I also need to update case studies because many of these are 11, 12, 13 years old and no longer relevant. And I need to come up with the kinds of elements that you see recurring in chapters of a business book. So I’m going to give you my blog post one at a time using these documents that I have shared, my corpus of my writing and my instructions on my writing and AI writing and how to apply that. Rewrite this post.

as a book chapter. And I was knocked out at how well it did. I still needed to spend an hour on editing and rewriting and making revisions. But I ended up doing that for 28 chapters. Is that an AI written book or is that a shell written book? I would argue that that’s my book. It based what it did on my writing. It did its new version based on how I write. And then I went back and made sure it was my writing.

@nevillehobson (17:48)

Shel Holtz (17:55)

@nevillehobson (18:03)

I agree with you. In fact, what you described is to my mind fits precisely the the label of AI assisted writing. That in my mind, what you’ve just explained is what’s the difference between what you did and between what you might have done if you’d hired a human being assistant to help you do this? What’s the difference? The AI is faster.

Is it accurate? Well, you only you will know that and you’re going to review it all anyway. And this to me is is is totally fine. And you’ve got no you would have no alarm about well, should I kind of write this chunky paragraph explaining that I’ve done it like this? No. Why? Why would you do that? Because similar tools have existed until now that were nowhere near as good as this. I mean, I think if some of the grammar assistance you

get from even in Microsoft Word back in the day, we’re Grammarly now that’s evolving that uses AI. And it’s, ⁓ you know, we got all these tools. Right, you’ve got all this there, which kind of neatly circles back to the main issue here, which is tone and authenticity, how do you still bring that along? And I think that is something where the the the user, the prompter, the communicator, whoever who is

Shel Holtz (19:01)

@nevillehobson (19:25)

ask me questions, how it prompts me and how responsible I ask it to do stuff like that. So that to me is is one way in which you can be confident yourself that the tone and authenticity of your AI assisted writing is okay. And that really is really what it comes out is not about creating a kind of a corporate manual for everyone has to follow. And I think it’s also to do with the comfort levels you have in your perception of that.

piece of writing or reading that someone has written that may have been assisted by AI may not more than often than not, it’s likely to have been assisted by AI. What is wrong with that? Well, a of people find something wrong with that nevertheless. So go back to right.

Shel Holtz (20:38)

four years, no one’s going to be talking about

@nevillehobson (20:45)

if you like, expectations are evolving too, particularly the younger you are. And according to one of the papers I read, younger audiences are comfortable generally speaking with AI polish, but care deeply about whether a message feels authentic. And that’s what we need to be paying attention to. So help in defining authenticity is one job communicators could take on. We’ve got through the training, yes, we know, here’s how you do this with this LLM.

Here’s what you could do with that. Now let’s pay attention to the tone. Are you paying attention to that? So I think the kind of road is shifting in a slightly different direction than otherwise we might expect because of this. And the academic research seems to be backing this up as well. Things are changing fast, it seems to me, and you’ve got to be on the case.

Shel Holtz (22:03)

So, you know, if you do this right, if you use it as a tool and do it right and come up with a workable process, I guarantee you all those people who say, can tell when it was written by AI, they can tell when it was written by AI by somebody who didn’t know what they were doing when they prompted the AI to write something. That’s what they can tell.

@nevillehobson (22:32)

Yeah,

that’s the watchword, I think. And so, by the way, I see this year, I think there’s been at least six books published about internal communication. So everyone’s on a book bandwagon. I hope yours is gonna be slightly different, because they’re all saying the same thing about strategy, what’s important, how to use AI. Yours will be different, right?

Shel Holtz (23:13)

@nevillehobson (23:30)

Shel Holtz (23:42)

@nevillehobson (23:51)

Shel Holtz (23:54)

And that’ll be a 30 for this episode of Four Immediate Release.

The post FIR #481: The Em Dash Panic — AI, Writing, and Misguided Assumptions appeared first on FIR Podcast Network.

In this episode, Chip and Gini discuss the common practice of providing free proposals and baseline ideas to clients. They argue that professional service providers should charge for these services as doing so adds value and ensures a thorough diagnosis before providing solutions.

They share personal experiences and compare the situation to doctors who would never prescribe treatment without proper tests. They emphasize the importance of understanding a client’s business through a paid discovery phase and making adjustments along the way to deliver effective results.

Additionally, they discuss the risks of providing overly detailed plans in early stages, the benefits of quarterly assessments, and the importance of maintaining clear communication and trust with clients. [read the transcript]

The post ALP 282: Stop providing solutions before understanding your client’s challenges appeared first on FIR Podcast Network.

GEO – generative engine optimisation – is suddenly everywhere. Is it the new SEO, a passing fad, or simply good communication practice in disguise?

In this FIR Interview, Shel Holtz and Neville Hobson talk with Stephanie Grober, Marketing & PR Director at Horowitz Agency in New York, about why GEO matters, the competing narratives surrounding it, and how communicators should prepare for the impact of generative search.

What we discussed

Stephanie Grober is the Marketing & Public Relations Director at Horowitz Agency, an integrated marketing and public relations agency with offices in Los Angeles, New York City, and Vancouver (B.C.). Her team works with law firm clients ranging from BigLaw to boutiques, designing and executing content and communications strategies that generate bottom-line growth in measurable ways.

Leveraging deep relationships with the press, she delivers high-quality earned media placements for clients and utilizes her extensive marketing background to amplify these results through a multi-channel approach.

Stephanie joined Horowitz Agency in 2021 after serving as Marketing and Communications Manager for a Top 50 accounting firm in New York City.

Relevant Links

https://searchengineland.com/what-is-generative-engine-optimization-geo-444418

Shel Holtz (00:01.989)

Stephanie Grober (00:19.33)

Shel Holtz (00:27.471)

Stephanie Grober (00:40.748)

Shel Holtz (01:13.837)

Stephanie Grober (01:22.7)

And what are those sources? Well, a lot of them are authoritative sources from top publications where you may have a PR professional working with you to get you quoted. So it all circles back to PR, makes it a very exciting time for PR professionals. Those who have already engaged the services of PR consultants or may have PR services happening in-house are a little bit ahead of the curve right now because they’re already going to be appearing in the authoritative sources that AI likes.

@nevillehobson (02:50.272)

Although to be fair, he did talk about what the, the most effective thing to do isn’t to argue about or worry about acronyms or initialisms or whatever. It’s about, building trust, creating clear, incredible content, putting it where you can, which already are. I thought, God, did he listen to our episode or maybe, but of course that was last week, not, the other day. but he did get me thinking about this. Is GEO an evolution of SEO? Is it? the same thing by another name. We talked about this and that’s not what we figured out what’s what’s your take on that?

Stephanie Grober (04:26.786)

I wouldn’t say that they are exactly the same thing, but they are very parallel to each other. I think that if you have successfully been employing SEO strategies as a part of your overall marketing efforts, then you are probably ahead of the curve, as far as GEO. And that would be because you’ve been consistently adding optimized content to your website. You know, which keywords you want to appear in search.

You may have been structuring your content in smart ways that already are answering questions. And that would be all on your own website, right? But now when we’re talking, GEO, we’re talking about getting that content out to external sources and reinforcing many of the same things. So SEO, could say it’s about keywords. GEO is about credibility, but the LLMs, they still have to learn.

So those keywords are gonna be important for them even in your external sources. And overall, what we’re looking for with GEO is mentions and visibility, whether it’s you as an individual or your brand.

Shel Holtz (06:34.097)

That doesn’t necessarily mean that if you’re doing research or if you’re just in one of the LLMs doing your job, that Reddit or Quora for that matter will be the dominant source of the information that you get. And yet this chart is everywhere and everybody’s talking about it. I confess, I went to our leadership in the organization I work and I said, we need to be in Reddit. And now…

It appears I was just chasing a shiny object or a magic bullet. How do you stay on top of what is working in this generative EO space?

Stephanie Grober (08:16.376)

AI overviews simply because of how the content is structured in a very human questioning way, but it’s not going to be the right place for everybody. So when we take a look at that at Horowitz agency as PR professionals working with law firms or other other business professionals, there’s some other interesting stats. I think that stood out. So Muckrack put out a great report recently also analyzing which sites are read by AI.

And I believe it was almost 30 % of the sources are journalistic outlets with prominence and attention paid to outlets like Reuters, AP, Axios, for example. So those are sort of your tier one media. So that is a strategy you can employ for your credibility. If you don’t think that Reddit is the right place for you, okay, then let’s go after the tier one media

Now I will caveat that by saying, niche outlets are also very important to AI. So don’t think that you have to be an AP or Reuters. If you ask a niche question, it is very likely that the AI is going to read a niche or trade press outlet. So those are very valuable as well. But overall journalistic sources are a very valuable way to start appearing in GEO results. That’s where from a PR perspective, we can start maximizing our approach and our strategies, tailoring them there to support GEO.

@nevillehobson (10:21.792)

Stephanie Grober (10:51.534)

So the best approach today is to make sure that as part of your overall marketing plan, PR is included and you have a comprehensive… hopefully you already have that, but if you don’t have that and you’re thinking, I want to make sure that we’re doing GEO right, don’t neglect PR. There’s a few parts of the PR process. First one is just having your sources become media trained and responsive. And again, that takes time to be comfortable speaking to the press, to identify what they want to comment on, to give good sound bites.

That all takes some practice. So somebody who’s just starting out in PR might not be comfortable if the Wall Street Journal calls them on day one and they’re like, this is my first rodeo. So you wanna have some practice working with smaller outlets. Again, working with those trade publications which are still going to be very valuable.

So we don’t only wanna prioritize tier one, but just having a variety of PR opportunities, seeing what works best, that’s something that takes some time. So if you’re not already doing that as part of your PR strategies, the time to start is now, it’s all going to benefit your GEO. And then another key part of this is making sure the messaging is consistent. And that is down to the way you are cited in the press, for example

So, you know, as one example that comes to mind is if you’re somebody who is always referred to in the press as a celebrity criminal defense attorney over and over, that’s going to train the LLMs. When somebody is searching for a celebrity criminal defense attorney, you’re gonna come up in that AI overview because the reporters have referred to you that way in interviews. So how you present yourself to the media and how they cite you is important. It’s important to be consistent.

And then of course, you know, what you’re saying in each opportunity matters too, but I think down to the way that you are cited is, very key.

@nevillehobson (13:24.213)

So where does this fit in that case? And probably the example you gave is someone brand new to this to PR just starting out suddenly is immersed in all this. What, how do you deal with this in this changing environment?

Stephanie Grober (14:36.91)

They can’t exist without each other because otherwise, you know, what has authority, what do we trust, right, to build a response from the AI. So like you said, Nebel, the landscape is changing. There’s new outlets every day. That continues to happen to myself and my team. We’re constantly discovering new outlets.

There’s journalists who have left major newsrooms, who have started their own newsletters, they’re on Substack, they’re podcasting. All of this is important, is the good news when we’re talking GEO, because GEO assesses a very wide variety of sources, including video, including podcasts. So I recommend that anyone who is wading into PR take as many opportunities as they’re comfortable with.

And again, don’t only hold out for Wall Street Journal and New York Times. Take a variety because you never know what is going to give you the most bang for your buck or where somebody is going to discover you. This is all about discoverability. This is about mentions. And the more you can do it, the better. All of the LLMs have their own way of reviewing sources at this point. They are not consistent.

There is not one formula that they’re using, whether it’s chat GPT or Claude or perplexity. Some of them use journalistic sources at a higher rate than others. Some of them use smaller outlets. Some of them have partnerships with major newsrooms like Financial Times to train the AI. So we’re in the very early stages.

That’s why, again, I don’t think that there is a one size fits all formula. I don’t think that there is a magic bullet today where it’s do it this way or you’re going to fail. It’s be prepared to be flexible, but be everywhere that you can. So as things shift, you’re still ahead of the curve. And anyone who has been a marketer through the rise of digital marketing, I think is probably familiar with that, and anyone who has been on the internet since the beginning of the internet is probably familiar with that, right?

When I grew up, it was the dawn of Wikipedia and things have really changed. We just got Google. I remember the first time a librarian told me about Google. So this is all gonna change. It’s gonna change very rapidly. It could go away. It could be the most important part of marketing I don’t think we know yet.

Shel Holtz (17:50.39)

Stephanie Grober (18:16.046)

And again, it might be certain keywords, certain questions that you want to prioritize, but that’s the easiest way just to be the end user and see how you come up, ask, ask the LLMs to describe you, to describe your brand, your company and see what comes back to you. so again, it’s not going to be perfect. We see a lot of errors or mistakes or misassignments of names and things when we do this.

So, you know, this is not the be all and end all to being successful. And I will say that, you know, AI search accounts today for, I think less than 30 % of search traffic. So, fortunately it’s not the only driver of traffic and, you know, discoverability, so we have a little time to iron out those kinks.

@nevillehobson (19:35.906)

Stephanie Grober (20:03.592)

in working with attorneys thought leadership is huge. Attorneys are always writing. They’re speaking. can repurpose their content. So there’s always fresh content going up, on websites and things like that. one thing I wanted to mention too, as, as we’re discussing this, whether it’s a brand that builds their own content platform, or a company working with content in another way is that the LLMs prefer recent and fresh content.

So, you if you were writing or speaking or quoted in the press five, six, seven years ago, that’s not gonna help you today. It’s time to get back out there. In the past 12 months or so is ideal with ongoing fresh content. So just something to keep in mind because I know, you know, time passes quickly and we’re like, when was I quoted? No, it was like five years ago.

Anyway, back to the content. I think that’s a very smart and strategic play if it can be supported. We know that marketers only have so much time in their day. There’s a lot of things that demand attention. So you have to choose to prioritize what makes the most sense and is a sustainable effort for your team.

Shel Holtz (21:43.063)

Stephanie Grober (22:32.75)

Now, if you put out press release across the wire, meaning in most cases you’re paying to put it out across the wire, that might be something that hits an LLM and is used to train on a certain topic. So in some ways, a press release still can have influence in that way. Other than that, the typical press release is not going far these days. It’s very difficult to maximize a press release.

We are competing for attention in the media landscape. There are less journalists. There is more news. The news cycle is shortened. It’s not even 24 hours. It’s about 24 minutes, it feels like most times. So just your standard press release, not put across the wire, not going far for most companies, you know, unless you are a enterprise corporation or, you know, very exciting in some other way.

@nevillehobson (23:58.229)

Shel Holtz (24:12.945)

Stephanie Grober (24:20.301)

@nevillehobson (24:20.936)

But this notion of repurposing press releases to take into account the audience change, i.e. it’s not people, it’s the algorithm. I’m not using the word machine. I see people talk about it’s the machines. It’s not the machines. It’s the algorithm, right? So I think that is a credible view.

I disagree with you there, Shel. I think that is something that we are seeing that you need to prepare your content to publish it online with two audiences in mind, which are the humans and the algorithms. And the example Shel mentioned that we discussed specifically in an episode was somebody who has thought this through, it’s a really good visual explainers on the differences between them. They made a lot of sense to me, I have to say.

But is it going to be like the press release, the social media press release from 2006 to 2010, that was a template of the things you should include for social media to take advantage of it generated quite a lot of excitement, a lot of buzz, lot of hype and ultimately just kind of faded away. It didn’t really, you know, attract a lot of attention.

Is this likely to be the same case? I wonder. So I think this does this is important this change along with all the other things that we’ve been discussing. And I just wonder where this is going to fit if people are going to be creating press releases where the prime audience they’re thinking of is an algorithm. Where does that fit into the picture?

Stephanie Grober (26:19.436)

The LLMs, the algorithm, it has to address the human at the end user who has a question and is seeking information and it has to answer that question.

Shel Holtz (27:23.025)

I’m thinking of the great content marketing that comes out of Microsoft where they’ll have a lengthy feature, but it contains some short videos. It contains some short audio clips. It has infographics and photos and text. And it’s all there in that format so that whoever wants to use it can just grab that audio file and maybe use it in a radio broadcast or just grab that video clip and use it in a TV news report. Does that make sense? Should we be focused more on content marketing and less on more traditional forms of communication?

Stephanie Grober (28:34.432)

So this shouldn’t be groundbreaking to anybody, but think about variety in your content. Think about making sure it’s answering questions, play with the format, use various types of multimedia to support your content. I think that is absolutely a sound approach today.

@nevillehobson (29:35.04)

What impact is that having, do you think, and will continue to have on search generally and how you measure search, whether it’s GEO or SEO, how big of a concern should that be that people are not clicking through? And by the way, I’ve seen some reports in the last few days, which I haven’t bookmarked, frankly, but they’re talking about, you know, this is not what’s happening. People are clicking through. That doesn’t seem to fit what I see.

I don’t know, respectable search results being produced or data being produced showing that that is not the case. What’s your thought on that, Stephanie?

Stephanie Grober (30:36.482)

And again, it comes back to the content marketing that we were just talking about. Folks land somewhere else now in your website environment. I think it varies very much brand to brand, company to company, depends on what type of answer the end user was seeking.

And then again, we have to think, is everybody trusting AI? Personally today, I don’t fully trust the answers AI is giving me. I’m always going to go back and research them. Now that might change individual to individual, generation to generation, but it’s not perfect yet. So, you know, I don’t think we’re at a place where somebody is just going to solely get their questions answered by AI and go about their day.

Maybe we will get there and we will see a real sea change in the way web traffic works, but I don’t think this is going to completely break the system. And I don’t think it’s going to end search traffic as we know it. and you know, if folks are answering a question where they need something, they’re still going to have to click through to get it. AI can’t procure something for you. perhaps it can answer a question, but most likely you’re going to want to click through to read further and do your own research if the AI is just producing relevant sources for you.

Shel Holtz (32:38.473)

Stephanie Grober (33:08.174)

Rather, they embrace the fundamentals of great marketing and then make sure that everything that is put out adheres, complies, represents the brand consistently and correctly. There’s a lot of layers of approval. Anyone working in corporate marketing is probably very accustomed to that. And I think that that’s a great thing. We are not trying to utilize any gimmicks.

We are not trying to trick the AI because we have to stand behind what is put out on behalf of our clients. And when you’re talking about professional services, that’s really guidance and counsel to folks with very important personal or business questions.

Shel Holtz (34:24.593)

Stephanie Grober (34:49.132)

But then they are prioritizing the value giving advice that their professionals can provide. So it might not take as many billable hours on research, but you might get more value in the conversation with your attorney or advisor. Of course, marketers are using AI in very interesting ways.

But again, it’s not perfect. So I think it’s still very early stages. Certainly it’s not replacing anyone in these industries yet today. And we’ll see if we get to a point where it will. Now, the same can be said for communications professionals. Is AI going to take our jobs? I personally think if AI is writing all the content, then… wouldn’t we reach a point where human written content is actually at a premium and bespoke and in demand? Because how can you stand out in a sea of AI written content, right? That doesn’t sound appealing at all. I mean, that’s not what I wanna read. hopefully we’ll still be here in five years.

Shel Holtz (36:36.049)

Stephanie Grober (36:54.516)

@nevillehobson (37:11.518)

Stephanie Grober (37:58.167)

Of course there was the Google antitrust case decision this week where, know, they’re keeping chrome and Gemini is going to be, feeding us its results. So I don’t see that going anywhere in the next year. I will be watching to see if AI search gets smarter and gets more accurate. and how our clients or those I work with appear in the search. So it will be sort of testing for us.

Of course, we’ll be looking out for more case studies of it leading to work. Anecdotally, there are folks in legal who are saying, yes, I’ve gotten clients from chat GPT searches, which is great. I personally know that there are some attorneys I’ve worked with in corporate law, for example, who after a great streak of appearing in outlets like Wall Street Journal, CFO.com, know, AI will tell me about them if I say who is a great &A attorney in Los Angeles. That’s what I want to see. That’s what I’ll be looking for in the next year. I can’t say that definitively we’re going to see a sweeping change more than that.

Shel Holtz (39:44.634)

I’m not sure that’s the answer, but certainly budgets aren’t keeping up with volume. The point was made that this individual did not get more budget to help create all that content. So if your firm were hired by a communications leader and asked you to adjust their content strategy for GEO, what process changes would you recommend, say, over the first 90 days?

Stephanie Grober (40:42.35)

We do probably over 500 nominations for our clients each year. So that is always a part of our strategy, but very important. I’d be looking at online reviews, whether for a company, could be your Google My Business reviews. It could be Yelp, Facebook, wherever you might get reviewed, in whatever way you might get reviewed. And then making sure that the client is out there, mentioned and visible again.

Each month, fresh mentions in journalistic outlets, whether they are prestige media or trade press, they still have value. Multimedia, getting them on video, getting them in podcasts anywhere we can. And then from a content strategy as a marketer, hopefully at this point you are repurposing, but use AI and let it help you repurpose.

There’s so many tips and tricks that marketers can use when it comes to AI. And that includes taking what you already have and making it new, repurposing it into different formats to make your job a little bit easier. So that today is one of the biggest benefits of having AI available to us as a tool to make content production easier.

@nevillehobson (42:30.014)

Stephanie Grober (42:53.998)

So even as we are working to boost GEO results, doing public relations, getting media mentions, we’re working with people. You have a PR professional, you have a client source, you have a journalist who’s a person, and that is still very valuable. AI can’t do that for us, it’s relationship driven. So make sure people are doing your PR, not AI.

@nevillehobson (43:43.818)

But is that kind of like a serious disruptive element suddenly appearing on the horizon that will have a huge impact on this amongst many, many, but think specifically what we’re discussing today and the change it might bring to that where you’re introducing AI team members in a team. What do you think about that?

Stephanie Grober (45:00.706)

So, you we pitch byline articles for clients all the time. A lot of newsrooms now have a, you know, a disclaimer that we may reject your piece if we think it’s written by AI. So it remains to be seen, you know, there are AI helpers, they’re on our teams right now, you know, how many companies are incorporating AI, we do have AI teammates.

We’re figuring out the best use for them. Some are better than others. Some are more trusting of AI than others. And some folks are more clever to use it as a tool than others. when it comes to communicating back and forth with artificial intelligence completely, the more strategic and in depth you get, just don’t know if that’s what we’re going to see in the very near future.

Shel Holtz (46:29.649)

If I develop a strategy and I want somebody to play devil’s advocate, I can’t go to my $400 an hour consultant, I don’t have a budget for that. So I’ll just ask the AI consultant. I realize that it’s not as good, but in the absence of any alternatives, it’s fine. And it has come up with some really good responses. So…

Stephanie Grober (47:18.7)

It’s changing, it’s evolving so rapidly that, you know, don’t put all your eggs into one basket. Don’t buy into a one size fits all approach today. It’s still too soon. And don’t abandon your other marketing strategies or tactics in favor of some of the AI driven ones.

Shel Holtz (48:03.843)

Stephanie Grober (48:23.146)

Thank you guys very much for the time today.

The post FIR Interview: Generative Engine Optimisation with Stephanie Grober appeared first on FIR Podcast Network.

In this episode, Chip and Gini discuss how agency owners should handle employees with physical and mental health concerns.

They cover the increased openness around mental health and self-care, sharing personal experiences and business challenges. They highlight the importance of individualized management approaches, legal considerations, and quick professional advice.

The hosts also emphasize compassionate handling of employee health issues, the need for flexible scheduling, and the impact on small businesses. Gini shares insights on providing support for team members and owners, such as disability insurance, to cover long-term absences.

They conclude by underlining the importance of empathetic leadership and offering flexibility. [read the transcript]

The post ALP 281: Supporting team members with mental and physical health challenges appeared first on FIR Podcast Network.

In this reflective follow-up to our FIR Interview in July with Monsignor Paul Tighe of the Vatican, Neville and guest co-host Silvia Cambié revisit some of the key themes that resonated deeply from that conversation.

With a particular focus on the wisdom of the heart – a phrase coined by the Vatican to contrast with the logic of machines – Neville and Silvia explore the ethical responsibilities communicators face in the age of artificial intelligence.

The discussion ranges from the dignity of work and the overlooked realities of outsourced labour, to the limitations of technical expertise when values and human well-being are at stake.

Silvia expands on her Strategic article focusing on precarious workers, while Neville revisits ideas shared on his blog about the Church’s unique role in advocating for inclusive, human-centred dialogue around AI.

Above all, this episode highlights how communicators are uniquely positioned to help organisations navigate the moral and societal questions AI presents – and why they must bring emotional intelligence, narrative skill, and ethical awareness to the forefront of this global conversation.

The next monthly, long-form episode of FIR will drop on Monday, September 29.

We host a Communicators Zoom Chat most Thursdays at 1 p.m. ET. To obtain the credentials needed to participate, contact Shel or Neville directly, request them in our Facebook group, or email [email protected].

Special thanks to Jay Moonah for the opening and closing music.

You can find the stories from which Shel’s FIR content is selected at Shel’s Link Blog. Shel has started a metaverse-focused Flipboard magazine. You can catch up with both co-hosts on [Neville’s blog](https://www.nevillehobson.io/) and [Shel’s blog](https://holtz.com/blog/).

Disclaimer: The opinions expressed in this podcast are Shel’s and Neville’s and do not reflect the views of their employers and/or clients.

@nevillehobson (00:03)

Silvia Cambie (00:17)

@nevillehobson (00:21)

He was instrumental in the development of Antiqua et Nova, the Vatican’s note on the relationship between artificial intelligence and human intelligence published in January 2025. In our interview, Monsignor Tighe offered a powerful reflection on how AI challenges us not only technically, but also morally and spiritually. He urged us to consider what makes us human in an age of machines, calling for a global conversation grounded in dignity.

agency and what the Vatican calls the wisdom of the heart. So in this episode, Silvia and I want to share what resonated most for us from that conversation and why we believe communicators have a vital role to play in shaping this future. I mentioned this before during the interview, Silvia, that you were instrumental in securing that interview. So tell our listeners, how did it come about?

Silvia Cambie (01:38)

the interaction between humans and AI and the dignity of work. So we were thinking of bringing these voices to the forefront and in particular in relation to your listeners, your listeners and Shel’s listeners who work in comms and work in change management and are often confronted with the moral aspects, values.

the ethical part of governance. And at the moment, they’re looking for a North Star because we are at the forefront as communicators of this wave of AI introductions, AI pilots. But we, at the same time, we often lack guidance. So that’s why we wanted to collect these views from the Vatican, from Monsignor Tighe.

relate them to our work, make them very concrete and kind of actionable, something for our listeners to use, to be able to use. And so I think you were mentioning before what resonated with us, with you and me. And so we had our conversation with Paul Tighe back at the end of July. And then we

@nevillehobson (03:10)

Silvia Cambie (03:25)

@nevillehobson (03:36)

Silvia Cambie (03:52)

And that is creating a certain dynamic which I have witnessed many times when I work in managed services, which is you’re basically following the rhythm of a machine and you have no time to think, you have no time to develop new ideas, to stop and ponder and get insight out of what you’re doing, out of what your client needs. So at the end of the day, everybody loses.

⁓ You don’t have fresh ideas. The client doesn’t get a fresh view or, you know, fresh recommendations on how to do things. So it’s all very mechanistic and it’s a real risk out there that people, you know, will have to follow the rhythm of machines in the work. And therefore what Paul Tighe mentioned.

which is the wisdom of the heart, as you mentioned before, the ability to relate to other people, how you relate to your client and solve their problems. So I think I’ve seen that in my work and I think that is a real risk. And we have to be aware of that. And as communicators and change managers, there’s a lot we can do because we are on the front lines.

And yeah, so I think this point about technology, that technology is never neutral and that ⁓ there’s this risk and danger that we will have to follow the pace of machines and lose the wisdom of the heart and lose the ability to draw insight from what we do. That’s something that really resonated with me.

@nevillehobson (06:01)

But also what struck me that I noticed was his knowledge, his ability, as it were, to understand the role of social media in communicating with people. And we noticed that the Vatican was pretty proactive on many social channels. And indeed, Paul Tighe was at one point ⁓ in the Dicastery of Communication, kind of like the Communications Department, in charge of all of this.

So they have a track record, a history, if you will, of knowing how to use social channels to engage with wide audiences, not just the faithful of the church, but broadly a wider audience. And that’s something we observed. And then this document, Antiqua et Nova, I found it an extraordinary document of what it set forth, what it described.

and the focus in particular on that phrase, wisdom of the heart, that resonated very strongly with me. I found it interesting too that the conversations that the Vatican had been having, notably with Paul Tighe, but not only ⁓ Monsignor Tighe, others too, with leaders of Silicon Valley companies, of the big tech firms in Silicon Valley, Mark Zuckerberg of Meta

We’ve had, you know, we’ve seen more Google, Microsoft, others gathering in a number of instances over the past year or so, ever since Pope Francis’s time to talk about this, where the Vatican was able to introduce this theme, this broader theme of the wisdom of the heart. And it struck me too, that Paul Tighe was quite clear and mentioned the Vatican is not claiming

expertise in AI systems or algorithm design, which by the way, struck me too. We keep talking about the machines. It’s not machines, it’s algorithms we should be worried about. Instead, it offers something that the tech industry and many governments sorely lack. I agree with this completely, a deep concern for long-term consequences you nudged on that point, Silvia, just now, and the consistent voice on the value of human dignity, agency and solidarity. So the wisdom of the heart,

Silvia Cambie (08:09)

@nevillehobson (08:29)

So for instance, subsequent to the interview, and this was actually quite recently, about a week or so back, Mustafa Suleyman, the CEO of Microsoft AI, wrote in an essay that we must build AI for people, not to be a person. In other words, AI is not a person. We hear a lot about, and I’ve had conversations with people about this, these so-called personas, the way in which you can create something that’s a duplicate of you almost. It’s like a version of you as a person.

I think that’s crazy to do that, to be frank, because that reinforces everything that we don’t want reinforcing, if you will. But Suleyman makes the case that the real risk we face is not AI suddenly waking up with consciousness, as some people talk about, but people being convinced that it has, because it’s not sentient. That’s a firm belief that I have. These are electronic devices and tools, not actual

versions of people. We’re not there yet. That’s quite a way away, I would say, if ever. But Suleyman goes on to say, this is the interesting bit to me, I want to create AI that makes us more human, that deepens our trust and understanding of one another and strengthens our connections to the real world. We won’t always get it right. But this humanist frame provides us with a clear North Star to keep working towards. I mean, that couldn’t be simpler either, could it? And this is the head.

of a division of one of the biggest technology companies on the planet, Microsoft, saying that. And I’ve seen others in the industry saying similar things recently. So maybe this is beginning to get attention. And I can’t say, of course, that it’s a direct result only what the Vatican has been talking about, but that surely must be having an influence. So I summarized all this just for me. Quite simply, emotional, moral and ethical intelligence must guide communicators response to AI.

The big question is how,

Silvia Cambie (10:50)

@nevillehobson (11:06)

Silvia Cambie (11:14)

people being disenfranchised at work. And I think that there is a quote by UNESCO that I really like, and I have used it in the article I wrote for Strategic, the online platform for communicators. It says that ⁓ AI is about anthropological disruption, right? It’s not only how the…

@nevillehobson (11:48)

Silvia Cambie (12:04)

⁓ wrap some governance around AI, AI applications, rollouts. And what I’ve seen is, know, centers of excellence being created in companies. Those centers of excellence oversee AI pilots, for instance, the progress. So, and have, you know, the usual suspects sitting on them, which are, you know, people from IT, developers.

But I think it’s very important that communicators and change managers become part of those fora because communicators know how to talk to people. Again, they’ve been doing that for forever. That’s their bread and butter. Also, they can relate to previous tech rollouts, you know, like a workplace technology and how people had reacted to that. So there is all that.

institutional knowledge that is needed now because this shift is so unprecedented. So I kind of cringe every time people show me a COE and AI COE made up only of IT people and developers because that’s not the way to go about it. I really like a start,

statue mentioned a fact you mentioned you and Shel mentioned in a previous FIR episode that I think you were quoting ⁓ studies by MIT and HR dive which says that people are expected to use AI in their daily work but they are not receiving proper training so they are kind of very confused about you know what

you know, this is going to hit my performance indicators. What am I supposed to do? They’re not training me. How am I going to use Co-Pilot? I’m going to download Chat GPT and do my own thing and show that I’m doing something and that hopefully will be enough for my company. So all that needs to be structured. And again, communicators have the knowledge. They have the institutional memory. They have the means and also

they know where the different voices sit in a company. Like when we do research before rolling out AI, we create workshops, we’re representatives from different parts of the company. So in that case, communicators know how to spot those voices because we have worked on on rollout projects before.

@nevillehobson (15:03)

Silvia Cambie (15:07)

to kind of channel what you were saying Neville, you know, the human aspect, what makes us human. It’s the ability to relate to other people. is insight, it is emotional intelligence. And it’s all things that are really needed these days because of this shift. And it’s kind of, you know, a paradox that we are so focused on the technology now, but at the same time,

we would need to focus even more on the human aspect because this challenge is so huge that people are just not prepared for it. And we really need to focus on the human aspect, their abilities, what makes us human in order to enable people to deal with it, right? In order to enable the training, in order to make people feel that they are equipped

@nevillehobson (16:24)

Silvia Cambie (16:26)

But I think that in order, so because this change is so huge, we really have to empower people in an unprecedented way and communicators are very well positioned for that.

@nevillehobson (17:06)

The role of the communicator then is to develop and deliver that but there’s also another aspect which to me is the it touches directly on on what we’re currently discussing, i.e. the human or the humanity element, if you will, that, you know, organizations are looking at adopting AI to improve their efficiency to ⁓ improve their productivity and they will enter scale more without looking at

this aspect? Are they asking the human questions? And that’s the role, in my opinion, of the communicator well placed to do that. So three questions I wrote down that could be where communicators are able to introduce this element in their conversation. Does this technology help deepen trust and empathy? Or does it risk eroding them? That’s a valid question, in my view.

Are we building systems that reintroduce conscience, care and context into conversations, or are we defaulting only to efficiency and output? And the third one, are we ensuring that AI strengthens our connection to each other rather than replacing those with illusions? And I think there are undoubtedly at least a dozen more, but to me, those are great ones to start with that, in a sense, force attention on this rather than just those technically

valid, yet ⁓ stale approaches to all of this. It dehumanizes, if you like. And I think the, just briefly going back to Mustafa Suleyman’s North Star, as he references quite clearly, and the Vatican’s wisdom of the heart, there’s an essential reminder in all of that, to me, which is quite simple to grasp.

To stay human in the age of AI is to place empathy, dignity and care at the heart of design and use, not simply efficiency or the ways algorithms shape our actions. Suleyman directly references that in his essay. And he’s the first technology leader I’ve seen publicly doing that the way he did. It was very clear and is a long essay, by the way, very long, worth reading. So that’s encouraging to see that and it’s worth.

Silvia Cambie (19:07)

Mm-hmm.

@nevillehobson (19:30)

Silvia Cambie (19:51)

This isn’t just about the efficiencies this app is going to create. You’re still dealing with people. Your employees are people, your clients are people, your regulators are people. So you’re still dealing with them. And I think that it’s about empowering people to ask the right questions, right?

So I was referencing before to those COEs that are being created to monitor AI pilots in companies. Well, the conversations there tend to be very technical and always focused on the tech, know, the rollout, the different waves of the rollout. And I think, again, communicators can bring back the human aspect. How are people reacting to this?

Is this making them more happier in their work or is this making them more insecure? As you were saying before, lot of companies are not providing training or not providing the right training. So that makes them insecure. Are they getting more and more confused in the way they are ⁓ dealing with their clients and customers? Because if you have AI that takes

over part of that relationship, what is left for them to do? So there is, it’s a very complex scenario that has to be considered from different aspects. And again, you you mentioned the Suleyman’s North Star and the Wisdom of the Heart ⁓ mentioned by Monsignor Tighe. I think these are kind of, sort of, these,

thoughts can inspire communicators, can inspire people who work in AI governance and make them pause and think that it’s important to focus on these aspects, to focus on what Suleyman was saying, the fact that people might expect AI ⁓ to be, might think that AI is conscious and they might.

establish, you know, develop a relationship of a certain kind with it so that they end up depending from the algorithm, depending from, you know, expecting approval. And so I think that now is the time to stop and think and introduce those thoughts into the conversations that are going on in companies about AI. And I think

@nevillehobson (22:33)

Silvia Cambie (22:51)

into the conversation. And again, you know, it’s a moving target, right? We will continue to look for voices like Monsignor Tighe, like Mustafa Suleyman I’m sure as we progress, there will be others and there will be other aspects. But I think that it’s just this…

@nevillehobson (23:17)

Silvia Cambie (23:37)

@nevillehobson (23:52)

Silvia Cambie (24:04)

about the technologies. then, you know, these are all tools that we can use to make our point and to make our point ⁓ stick. So I think, as I said, this is a lot of, know, the target, this is a moving target. We’ll have to do a lot more work on this, but it is fascinating for communicators because

You know, I get off often, I get asked by people in comms. So, you know, how do I shift to tech and I am not a developer and I don’t have the right knowledge in AI and I don’t know how to build an LLM. I, my answer is, is basically this, right? Make sure, bring the human voice into the conversation. do you know how to talk to the base?

you know how to collect their voices, or you know how to collect their views, make sure that they are heard, because it is important as we go forward. So I think that is what communicators can do. And that is a very important role indeed at the moment.

@nevillehobson (25:37)

tech tools, the chatbots, the means by which people connect with others and discover things themselves. And it’s Silicon Valley based and tends to be in English more than the other language. But we’re seeing some interesting things happening. Latin America. Peru is leading the charge on building a Spanish language chatbot that serves communities throughout Latin America, taking into account

cultural nuances, language differences, and the values that are unique to those communities in that part of the world that are very much not global North style environments, if you like. We’ve got what the Vatican is doing that we’ve just been discussing from that interview with Monsignor Tighe calling for an AI shaped by human dignity. And then just literally yesterday,

this this this a few days ago this past week. Saudi Arabia is asserting its cultural sovereignty, let’s put it that way in digital form, with the launch of an Arabic language chat bot called HUMAIN Chat. And it’s based on a large language model that’s Arabic, the largest in the Arabic speaking world, the developer says. And that’s intended to be

targeted at people of the Islamic faith globally, that’s two billion or so, Arabic speakers throughout the world, 400 million or so of them. At the moment, it’s just in Saudi Arabia. I’ve seen quite a bit of buzz building up about this over the past week, mostly focused on the tech, because it is quite new. The point I’m making though, is that with HUMAIN Chat and the others,

These are signs that the future of AI will not be written in only one language or framed by just one set of values. And that’s something I think we should all be paying very close attention to. And it enables, I think, some, it broadens out, if you will, the part of bringing the human element into the conversation, where you’ve got tools that can be a great help in that goal, in bringing that human part into it. So

These I find very interesting, Silvia, the are we looking at fragmentation of, of AI universalism could be enrichment, I see it. So that’s part of the picture, too. So the human element is essential to all of this. And these are all parts of the jigsaw that’s that’s rapidly being being completed, if you will.

Silvia Cambie (28:21)

@nevillehobson (28:32)

communicators who are fearful of this, who don’t know what to do about this because not getting trained. I would say that this is easy to say this and maybe not easy to actually do for some people. But grasp the nettle, as it were, as the saying goes, get to know these technology tools and how you can, in a sense, leverage them to take your humanist message to others in your organization, particularly the leadership, to bring that human voice into the conversation about deploying AI.

Silvia Cambie (29:11)

@nevillehobson (29:27)

Silvia Cambie (29:35)

Yeah.

Yeah, indeed. I really, I was really very happy to see those developments. And you shared with me an article a few days back that the UN, ⁓ something coming out of the UN, UN was saying that, you know, AI is too Western centric, it’s too focused on the global north and the global south is, you know, bound to suffer from that.

@nevillehobson (30:14)

Silvia Cambie (30:18)

messages we get out of Silicon Valley are kind of the big brother, we have the, you know, we are reaching a, a GI, no, we’re not reaching it. Well, we’ve reached it. I don’t know. So it’s kind of, you know, very strange and, and very sort of big brother. I’m going to tell you when I, when I think it’s right, but you know, at the moment I’m not telling you the truth. So I think those,

points of focus of those alternative approaches. You mentioned Latin America, you mentioned the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. I think it’s very interesting because in that way there will be kind of competition, quote unquote, to Silicon Valley. There will also be more transparency, but also there will be an awareness of the fact.

that as Monsignor Tighe said, technology is never neutral. Technology reflects the mentality of those who create and develop it. So we want diversity of cultures, diversity of points of view. We have to make sure that we collect different voices.

and we channel those into the development and the creation of AI and AI applications. So I think this is a very exciting development, particularly the one from Saudi Arabia. I worked a while ago with Saudi.

developers and communicators on social media and social media campaigns. And they’re very, very creative and they were the forefront of social media. So I am expecting something really interesting and sophisticated from Saudi Arabia. so, yeah, so this is a very good development all in all. And also it’s a good development for communicators, right? Because communicators, a lot of our

colleagues are involved in cross-cultural communication. They work for multinationals, they have to spot those voices and bring them to the forefront. So this will be inspirational for them, right? They will be able to tell their bosses, their board, look, it’s not just this AI application that comes out of Silicon Valley that you can use. There is an AI application in Peru.

@nevillehobson (32:44)

Silvia Cambie (33:08)

@nevillehobson (33:26)

Silvia Cambie (33:44)

@nevillehobson (33:54)

Silvia Cambie (34:08)

@nevillehobson (34:12)

You can send us email fircomments at gmail.com. Increasingly, we’re noticing we’re getting comments quite significantly on LinkedIn. People aren’t actually sending us directly comments anymore. That seems to have fallen out of favor. But conversations build on LinkedIn. FIR doesn’t have its own page on LinkedIn. So you’ll find those comments typically on posts from Shel or I under our own names. But increasingly, others are posting about what they heard in FIR.

So you’ll find lots there. On other social channels, we have a community page on Facebook. And we’re also we have a handle for FIR on Bluesky. And then there’s our individual ones too.

So thanks, everyone, for listening. And if Shel were here, he’d wrap this up by saying, that’ll be a 30 for this episode of For Immediate Release.

The post FIR #480: Reflections on AI, Ethics, and the Role of Communicators appeared first on FIR Podcast Network.

In this episode, Chip and Gini discuss how to manage situations where clients want to terminate contracts early. Gini emphasizes the importance of having a strong contract with clear termination clauses, which can serve as leverage in negotiations.

They share experiences and strategies for recovering outstanding invoices, including offering concessions and being flexible with payment arrangements. The duo also cautions against aggressive tactics like public shaming for non-payment and stresses the importance of maintaining professionalism to avoid burning bridges. They conclude with practical advice on managing accounts receivable and resolving disputes amicably. [read the transcript]

The post ALP 280: Handling early client contract terminations with finesse appeared first on FIR Podcast Network.

Posts and videos featuring Generative Engine Optimization (GEO) hacks and formulas are flooding the web. We reported recently on one such hack focusing on press releases. But when you consider the kind of content on which the AI models rely for their answers, it may be more efficient to revert to good, old-fashioned PR and marketing.

Links from this episode:

The next monthly, long-form episode of FIR will drop on Monday, September 29.

We host a Communicators Zoom Chat most Thursdays at 1 p.m. ET. To obtain the credentials needed to participate, contact Shel or Neville directly, request them in our Facebook group, or email [email protected].

Special thanks to Jay Moonah for the opening and closing music.

You can find the stories from which Shel’s FIR content is selected at Shel’s Link Blog. Shel has started a metaverse-focused Flipboard magazine. You can catch up with both co-hosts on Neville’s blog and Shel’s blog.

Disclaimer: The opinions expressed in this podcast are Shel’s and Neville’s and do not reflect the views of their employers and/or clients.

Raw Transcript:

Hi everyone, and welcome to For Immediate Release. This is episode 479. I’m Neville Hobson.

And I’m Shel Holtz on Thursday Neville, you and I are going to interview Stephanie Grover, who is the marketing and PR director at Horowitz Agency. This is a marketing agency that works with law firms, production companies, and other professional service providers in the US and Canada.

And we’re going to talk, be talking about GEO generative. Optimization, generative engine optimization. I’m not altogether sure, but it’s a hot topic and I thought I would take today’s episode to set the stage for that because we’ve all seen the headlines recently. Chat, GPT, traffic referrals to websites plummeted more than 50% in a single month.

This summer, and that’s not a blip. It’s a structural change in how these large language models are surfacing content. [00:01:00] OpenAI tweaked its ranking and suddenly chat GPT Beca became began citing fewer sources, leaning more heavily on places like Wikipedia and Reddit. Useful for users. Yeah. But if you’re a brand counting on visibility, it’s a gut punch.

And meanwhile, the volume of content keeps exploding. A new B2B study found content production has tripled year over year, which could be partly attributable marketers flooding the zone with content in the hopes. LLMs will hoover it up and they’ll show up in AI search results. Interestingly, that tripling of content volume has not been accompanied by commensurate budget increases.

Mm-hmm. But we’re producing more content than ever but it’s not necessarily better content or content that LLMs are actually going to use. So no surprise that there’s a scramble for the supposed hack that will unlock, sorry. Unlock. Okay. Unlock [00:02:00] rhymes with hack. What can I say? So no surprise that there’s a scramble for the supposed hack that will unlock generative engine optimization.

GEO. Some companies are starting to figure out that it’s not about gaming the algorithm, though. It’s about trust. Sylvia la this chief marketing officer at Kenji shared a fascinating case study on LinkedIn. Her team created the sequence, it’s a standalone content brand with its own domain separate from the corporate site.

The idea was simple. Create a community driven media hub. Human high quality, free of fluff. The unexpected bonus that came from this is that LLM started treating the sequence as an external authority. When asked about can g chat, GPT doesn’t just reference the company, it references the sequence. In other words, by building a trusted resource that stands on its own apart from the central [00:03:00] brand site, they built credibility, not just with their human audience.

But with the algorithms too that aligns perfectly with something else I saw from Liza Adams, another CMO. Who pointed out that the reason Wikipedia and Reddit dominate AI citations isn’t mysterious, it’s because they directly answer real questions using the same plain language. Real people use Adams contrasts two types of marketing teams, the ones who do the hard work of auditing their content, listening to customer language, and creating genuinely helpful answers.

The ones chasing quick fixes and shortcuts. Her takeaway is that there is no algorithm hack AI amplifies what’s already there. If your content is genuinely useful, trustworthy, and present in the watering holes your customers rely on, the algorithms will pick it up. If it’s not, there’s no trick. That’ll save you.

Now, add one more layer to this. What people themselves actually trust according [00:04:00] to new LinkedIn research networks, our peers, our colleagues, people we know still rank as the number one trusted source of information far ahead of. AI searches or even traditional search engines. In fact, 43% of professionals say their network is their first stop when they need advice at work and new.

Nearly two thirds say colleagues help them make decisions more confidently Now. Think about that for a second while marketers obsess over how to get cited by chat, EPT, or Gemini, the real influence continues to live in trusted human connections. That’s also changing how brands approach content. LinkedIn reports that 80% of B2B marketers are increasing investment in community driven content.

Bringing in creators, employees, and subject matter experts, they understand that credibility doesn’t come from corporate channels alone. It comes from trusted voices. People want to hear from. So where’s that leave us in? A [00:05:00] messy transition is where that leaves us. Generative AI referrals are volatile.

Content volume is ballooning. Everyone’s chasing GEO or a EO or A-I-S-E-O or whatever acronym you want to use, but the truth is the winning strategies are old school in the best sense. Build trust, answer real questions, and put your content where your community is already paying attention. Kenji’s story shows that if you can create a true content brand, it can earn authority with humans and with machines.

Liza Adams reminds us that shortcuts don’t work answering real questions and real language does. And LinkedIn’s research makes it clear that even in the age of AI are human networks still shape the bulk of decisions. So stop chasing algorithms, earn trust. That’s the real path to visibility in a generative search world.

Good. Good assessment there. Shell, I [00:06:00] think we’ve talked about this a lot on recent episodes of this podcast. One that comes to mind recently, which is in this kind of area, was the episode in which we talked about the, new form of press release that some people are discussing that is aimed at algorithms, not humans.

And this to me is in the same kind of territory in that context. It’s a hack. So you, yeah, you call it that if you like, but I see it more as this is the direction of travel and the critics who say, no, no, no, no, no. This is not gonna take off it. Trust me. It really is. We’re seeing signs everywhere that this is, a really good sorry, not Google. It was Pew Research at the end of July. Had a quick survey results. Again, we’ve talked about this stuff on this podcast. Google users are less likely to click on links when an AI summary appears in the results. That’s been a kind of recurring topic, what a communicator’s gonna do about that.

It’s not about, well, it’s not what? It’s [00:07:00] not about. What it is about is making your content discoverable more than it currently is in light of this trend that is happening. That means you’ve gotta rethink your approach to such and that kind of acronym soup that you reeled off just now. She maybe think of, oh, McDonald had a farm, right?

E-I-E-I-O, right? You remember that? Search engine optimization and generative engine optimization seems to be the latter seems to be the common descriptor of all that I have seen particularly when I was looking into this area. But the reality is that. Change is underway. So, SEO if I contrast it this way, SEO’s the purpose of SEO, if you like, is to improve a website so that it ranks higher in search engine results.

That’s essentially what SEO’s all about. GEO on the other hand, is this new idea, and as you mentioned it shaped by the rise of generative AI tools like Chat, GPT, et cetera, that instead of optimizing for search engines and websites, it’s. [00:08:00] GEO is about making content more discoverable and usable by AI systems that generate answers now.

That to me, therein lies exactly the threat, if you will, if you wanna see it as a threat. I see it as evolution, and I see it as opportunity for those looking for. Angles looking for leverage, looking for an opening that you know, if your content is gonna be more discoverable and usable by AI systems that generate answers, you are on a winning streak in that case, because this is the definite trend.

So it means you’ve gotta structure information ways AI models can easily interpret and cite. Almost that same phrase was used in that topic I mentioned that we discussed on a previous episode about the kind of evolutionary press release that’s emerging for the AI era to coin to nearly coin an already coined phrase.

This is, in my view, this is the trend that’s going to knock the existing model sideways. And if you are not. [00:09:00] Looking into how you need to be part of this. You’ve got hard work ahead if you are able to catch up with people who are doing that. Key differences this is quite simple. SEO attracts people by clicking on links.

That’s the point of it. GEO AI engines to ensure your content is included in the answers it generates. Think about that. And that’s outside your control in the sense of the generation, but it’s totally within your control to make your content discoverable. So that is included in those generated answers.

So the format SEO uses see a rank list of websites. GEO people see a synthesized. Without clicking through to the original site that’s, you’re not gonna change that. It’s interesting, there are many similarities and this is this is a kind of paradox. Both aim to increase visibility of your content.

Both rely on credibility. Both evolve constantly as the technology changes and both can affect reputation. If you’re doing badly, like keyword stuffing for SEO [00:10:00] or gaming AI for GEO, you risk undermining trust, and that’s the underlying point of it all. So. I think I’m looking forward to this discussion with Stephanie on, on Thursday, by the way, because I’ve seen when I did a little quick lookup knowing we’re gonna talk Stephanie on, on what she was gonna talk to us about.

I see a lot of criticism of geo. Some people call it snake oil. This is not genuine, it’s not authentic. ’cause there’s no, this is definitely not what you should be doing. I’m thinking deja vu in the sense of what I’ve seen in the past when something new appears in the PR realm, if you like. I think it is something definitely to pay attention to.

I think what you mentioned and the links that will include in the show notes indicates that SEO is not gonna suddenly drop dead. Not at all. But the future is not. Links on websites at all? Not really. I don’t believe. I can see, we’ve talked about this again on the previous episodes about a IO reviews from Google that I see conflicting stories, and I think you might have referenced something in [00:11:00] the beginning shell that trafficked on in that era is diminishing recently according to sub reports.

But the truth of the matter is that, that ask almost anyone, there are surveys saying this, people prefer that. Users, let’s call them that, right? Customers or whoever you call looking for something, there’s a result. You see what you need in that little box on the right hand side of your screen. And that’s as far as you go.

You don’t click on anything necessarily. And that’s people’s preferences. Why are you gonna go to a website when hist history shows you that it’s not? Much you can trust. So you’re looking, for instance, and I’ve used this example before. You’re looking for electric cars ’cause that’s a hot topic.

And here in the UK the government just announced a rebate. To stimulate people buying electric cars. So you go online to look at what are the deals in electric cars who’s got this particular model. And as you do a traditional search the chances are high that amongst the results you’re gonna get in that list are gonna be [00:12:00] car dealers and sponsors.

There’s all, that word appears everywhere. I wouldn’t go there at all, not knowing that there’s now this. Far more trustworthy alternative that’s likely to give me what I want without the feeling that you’re being manipulated by an algorithm because they’ve paid money to have their listing appear.

This is where we’re at in the territory it seems to me show. So I, again, Stephanie, looking forward to hearing how can she put this forward as a good explainer for communicators? And this is the message we mentioned before, is that, you’ve got about, you’ve gotta really make sure your content is clear, credible, and discoverable.

That’s not a new thing. You’ve always had to do that, right? But now it’s becoming more likely that if it’s not, you’ll be ignored, and that’s not good if you’re a brand. No. And you said SEO’s not dead. And it’s not gonna die anytime soon. Maybe it’s, well, it’s received a diagnosis and it’s physicians are trying to figure out if there’s anything they can do [00:13:00] to save it, but it’s has time yet to enjoy what’s left of its life.

They I’ve heard people talking about the notion that one day the web is going to be designed for bots that is going to be bots, that are going to be visiting websites and gathering information and fueling the research and the searching. That humans do? I don’t think that’s accurate.

I think there’s always going to be reasons people want to visit websites. I mean, is the Onion website really just there for bots to hoover up? Its content. No. People wanna go have a laugh. People wanna go watch videos on YouTube. There are reasons that people are going to want to go visit some kinds of websites.

But, look at that. That item that we reported on about a new type of press release to accommodate the algorithms. And the more I think about that, the more I believe that if you need to revise the approach you take to press [00:14:00] releases to accommodate large language models, then the old approach you were taking to press releases probably sucked because what is it that appeals.

To the large language models well, first of all, they’re not sharing their algorithms with us. When Google makes a change to Google, they write papers about it. They give the new update a name and all the SEO companies gobble up this information and make s. Changes to their work in order to accommodate the changes that Google’s made.

What? OpenAI and Google Gemini, Google DeepMind, and the other players in this space what their algorithms are is a black box. We don’t know. So if you’re trying to game the algorithm let’s face it, you’re guessing. What we do know is roughly how. These models work not in any great detail.

Even the people [00:15:00] who built them don’t understand how they work in any great detail. But we know that the knowledge that is collected in the training and in the continuous training that goes on through adding the new stuff that is posted, that the bots are all out gathering is all stored in cells and neuro net.

In neurons in a neural network. And it’s the association between the neurons, just like in our own brains that produce the next token, the next word, the next sentence, the next paragraph in the results that you see. And we do know that a lot of these results are coming from Reddit and from Wikipedia, and we do know, or at least it is a.

Very strong strongly supported, bit of surmising that it’s because they talk in plain language and answer questions that people wanna know about. So if you if you consider that website that [00:16:00] the brand Cange came up with that was a content driven site separate from the brand that was community driven.

It worked. It satisfied both the need to build trust and interest among your community. And the LLMs liked it and started citing it when people asked about Cange. So it seems to me that rather than try to do something different, the only thing different you should be doing is if you’ve been doing it wrong up till now.

You should go get yourself a good primer on marketing and a good primer on public relations from maybe the last 10 years and read that and do that because that’s what the l lms, like, I don’t think there is a magic bullet. I think that what we are good at when we do it the best that it [00:17:00] can be done.

That’s what works. And that’s the direction we need to head. I agree. I totally agree. I think part of the problem though, for communicator certainly is the how bit, how you can do that. So, so one question I have, given the shift that’s underway, it is SEO is about ranking in a list of links.

GEO is about surfacing in AI generated summaries where the links may be secondary. So for communicators, how do communicators adapt when fewer people click to the source? No matter what the reasons might be, that’s the question, how do you do this? So it’s a how we need to help them, help ’em understand. And I don’t have the answer to the how myself either.

Well, I think the answer goes back to basic strategic planning, right? It’s Sure. What is your goal in the first place, and what strategy are you going to employ in order to achieve that? Goal. And if the old strategy of SEO doesn’t work, if the old even older strategy of having a website doesn’t do the trick anymore, what else do you do?

[00:18:00] You know, back to the drawing board. But that’s what we do. It is true and we’ve mentioned this before, so for instance uh, you know, AI models are more likely to size sources with consistent metadata, explicit effects breach. That’s common sense, I think. But publishers and brands worry. If AI provides the answer directly, what incentive is there to visit the source?

So this is a circular point. Go back to the other one. How to communicate adapt when fewer people click through to the source. Uh, like all things, you need a plan, but what is certainly clear, and I think that point I just mentioned, that would undermine ad advertising based revenue models, right? It doesn’t mean that next week is all gonna collapse.

Not at all. But that’s. You can see the writing on the wall. I’m sure I can certainly see writing on the wall about this, and I’m kind of a bit nonplussed by deniers. May maybe the, the VX people too. Deny all that. I, I don’t know, but I mean, it just seems to me crazy. You can see the changes right in front of your eyes, whether you like it or not.

So I think you mentioned [00:19:00] your gaming, uh, as I mentioned in my early combat gaming. You know, gave me the content for LLMs you know, AI friendly, but misleading content. I think that is still a, a big issue to be concerned about given how that is already going on. And, uh, we already, you know, we already hear the kind of worry signs about and these are the things that are in the realm of, you know, what happens if the robots do take over all gonna die, et cetera.

But it means that if. AI generated content is prompted by people with bad in. Now, these, these famous bad actors we hear about all the time, and the output is based on that bad input. And then others reference that over time. Uh, what is that giving us? Bullshit. Basically misinformation, disinformation how can we trust anything?

And we’re already seeing this demonstrated, and we talked about this in a recent episode in Wikipedia, where they are battling the [00:20:00] reality. Of the influx of misinformation and disinformation in content written by others that is faster to appear than the moderation system can handle it. So they’re now coming out with a quick delete methodology that is the short-term solution.

I dunno what the long-term one is for Wikipedia, but that directly impacts trust. And I think if, if that happens, then we’re in real trouble. But we’re seeing this, I, I see this daily here. The, the BBC is very much at the front. Page on this and a number of other media companies in the uk the verification team there.

There’s, I gather, there’s now like a hundred people on this team. I’m not sure where I, where I saw that, but, uh, it may not be true in that case, but it’s a lot of people who literally analyze everything. Uh, there was a, a story I saw this morning analyzing all this stuff over the weekend. I’m sure you saw it about.

Has Trump died? Is he still around? Is he still alive? Uh, and that’s been looked into to get to the source of where that started. I’ve not seen the [00:21:00] conclusion of that research, but Wikipedia’s definitely in the frame. Reddit I saw mentioned earlier, and, uh, every time I go to Reddit and I use Reddit a lot ’cause of things I’m interested in.

Uh, and it’s full of, opinion. And then the counter opinion, and then you get rabbit holes everywhere about, well, I heard it was this and that’s not true. Worse is the ones who say, with authorities of sounding words, that X it is so and so without any verification. People believe that stuff there is part of the problem too.

Humans are too trustworthy in that regard. We’re, it’s a mess. And how do we, again, how do communicators adapt when fewer people click through? The source is a kind of umbrella question to it all. Uh, it’s a difficult one. Well, I think the fact that fewer people are clicking to a source means that the, the purpose of the source needs to change.

You need it there because that’s what the LLMs grab in, in, in their training sets. So you. [00:22:00] Want to continually be working on that content. And there may come a day where you won’t care if a single human sees it, as long as it’s delivering the AI results that you need it to. Perhaps website design is going to diminish only the sites that people actually do want to visit for whatever reason will get high quality design.

The rest will be, you know, mark more markup language. So, uh. That it’s even easier for the LLMs to grab. I don’t know where that’s headed. We’ll see. No, uh, because I’m sure that that will follow whatever ends up working. But the idea that you won’t need a website anymore is absurd if you are generating revenue off of that website through advertising.

You’re probably gonna need to switch to something more community driven. Right? Because people will continue to go to community sites. Yeah. Uh, because a AI can’t replicate that. They can’t deliver that for you. No, [00:23:00] I, I, I agree. And I don’t see websites dying away, even if, uh, some people say they will. ’cause like you said, people will always want to do certain things that might well diminish nevertheless.

But in all of that, you mentioned the point earlier, and you’ve mentioned this the other day, I think in, in, uh, in some of your recent experiences that, already there are tools that, uh, let’s call them AI agents, even though I don’t think they really are yet that will go out to YouTube and find these, take these 17 videos on this topic that you are really interested in.

Summarize it all from the, uh, from the transcript and present to you a summary of what it’s all about with some actionable items for you to do, depending on what you’ve asked it to do for you. So that to me, I, I can see more likely I speak of myself here, uh, and I, I’ve kind of. Scroll through YouTube looking for stuff myself, that would be far more appealing than me going to the website.

Well, I’ve actually created a, a, a tool that does, so I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t do that. And I, I, I would imagine a lot of people would prefer to do that than go themselves to [00:24:00] the onions. An example you made, have someone give you the list of, this is what this is all about. I’ve done that.

I’ve, uh, used, uh, Google’s opal tool, uh, to create a workflow where I enter the URL of a YouTube video. I say, this is a video that gives instructions on how to do x go to the transcript and just give me the steps to, to do it. Yeah. I, I. I chose that video because I watched it and it has the steps I want.

What I don’t wanna have to do is continually rewind, uh, as I’m going through these steps. So once I’ve seen it, I just wanna see the steps articulated. And it works real well. I used it a few times. Then I got the comment browser from Perplexity, which I can just do that as a prompt. Now, uh, I, I don’t need a workflow, so I, I just got that over the weekend as my, you know, congratulations.

You’re now in the trial, blah, blah. I’ve installed it, but I’ve not, uh, tried it yet, but it’s on my to-do list to do. I see like you watch a couple of YouTube videos [00:25:00] to see everything you can do with it, because there’re, I’m gonna try, you’re not obvious. Try. I’ll try it with that. I, I suspect so, so this adds to the, to what’s happening in the development phase of what’s going on in that wide world out there.

Uh uh, and the pressure is definitely on to find. Better ways, more effective ways to, uh, to get the answers to what you are looking for that are far more, uh, uh, appealing to users. This is really what it comes about. Yeah. What do you prefer to use? And you will ignore lists of links in the future ’cause they’re not.

Sufficient information for you without more work. So I find a development in, in tools like chat, GBT with the recent models where they now do what Perplexity started doing quite a while ago, which is giving you the list of sources. So I did something the other on a research project that I’m working on right at the moment that I, I, I told chat GBT to give the full list of sources, [00:26:00] which it did.

Citation linked to the appropriate passages. Made life a lot easier. A lot easier. Not as good as perplexity, but it’s getting there and didn’t do it until not long ago. Plexity, I, I use occasionally, but chat gpt is my go-to for all these kinds of things. Uh, particularly model five. Initially skeptical that as I was, but the thinking mode is really quite good.

A bit slow though, I have found. So, um, this is part of the, the deal. Right. Again, like I said, I’m looking forward to this conversation in the FIA interview we’ve got scheduled for Thursday. Might, uh, might enlighten us a bit more. Looking forward to it myself and until then, that’ll be a 30 for this episode of four immediate release.

I.

The post FIR #479: Hacking AI Optimization vs. Doing the Hard Work appeared first on FIR Podcast Network.