The Freelancers' Show

Panel Eric Davis (twitter github blog) Ashe Dryden (twitter github blog) Evan Light (twitter github blog) Jim Gay (twitter github blog) Charles Max Wood (twitter github Teach Me To Code Rails Ramp Up) Discussion
01:13 - Coping with Burnout Taking up hobbies Outside job stressors Exercise 07:21 - Overcommitting
09:59 - Expectations Having children Setting boundaries PPC Principle = Production vs Production Capacity (The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People by Stephen R. Covey) 16:32 - Work/Life Balance Your personal definition of relaxation 20:26 - Depression
22:27 - Coping Mechanisms Partner support Talking through it 29:43 - Preventing Burnout Don’t push your limits Regrets of the Dying Frustration Driven Development by Evan D. Light Picks Slate Magazine | Boston bombing breaking news: Don't watch cable. Shut of Twitter. You'd be better off cleaning your gutters. (Eric) Happier (Evan) Happy: The Movie (Evan) Learned Optimism: How to Change Your Mind and Your Life by Martin E. P. Seligman (Evan) If You're Too Busy to Meditate, Read This - Peter Bregman (Evan) A Wet Towel In Space Is Not Like A Wet Towel On Earth (Ashe) Mou (Markdown App) (Ashe) No Equipment? No Excuses: 20 Exercises You Can Do At Home (Ashe) My Best Mistake: Too Much Success - Gary Vaynerchuk (Jim) Unplugging the TV (Jim) Battlestar Galactica (Chuck) Downton Abbey (Chuck) Downton Abbey at 54 Below - Season 4, Episode 1 Sneak Peek (Chuck) @freelancershow (Chuck) Next Week
Project Management
Transcript
CHUCK: Alright, I'm still adjusting volume here. JIM: Am I too loud? EVAN: Oh, no! But, you're way too deep... [laughter] [Hosting and bandwidth provided by the Blue Box Group. Check them out at bluebox.net] CHUCK: Hey everybody and welcome to Episode 59 of the Freelancers Show! This week on our panel we have, Eric Davis. ERIC: Hello! CHUCK: Ashe Dryden. ASHE: Hello! CHUCK: Evan Light. EVAN: Hellooo! CHUCK: Jim Gay. JIM: Hello! CHUCK: I'm Charles Max Wood from devchat.tv. This week's topic is going to be "Dealing with Burnout". Just to give you a little bit of background, I actually chose this topic because I am dealing with burnout. Anyway, I thought it'd be interesting to talk about it to see if you guys experience this and -- EVAN: No, never! Ever! JIM: Alright, it's been fun! [laughter] EVAN: That's it. CHUCK: I'm totally burned out on these guys, I'm leaving. EVAN: You have a nice model object. CHUCK: [laughs] Anyway, I got off this project a couple of weeks ago, and I don't know! I just haven't been able to really sit down and want to write code. And, it was really hard for me because I was burned out all through the month of most Ruby Conference. I enjoyed talking to people, but usually I wind up messing around with code and stuff during the conference and I'll come home and go the whole bunch. I really enjoy writing code! And, I'm really not enjoying writing code...And so, I was wondering what you guys do to cope with this kind of thing? EVAN: [inaudible] [laughter] EVAN: I'm serious! I just work a little bit less and maybe I don't produce many hours and maybe I spend more time doing complete things that have nothing to do with the computer. ASHE: Yeah. A couple of years ago, I had a really bad case of burnout. It probably last to close to a year. I just hated doing work every single day and I started picking up hobbies. I had nothing to do with sitting in a computer like I picked up meeting, which for most people who know me like I'm not like a very domestic does-curly-girl-type thing, so picking up meeting was kind of different for me, which I love doing now and I really enjoy doing that; rode my bike more, spent more time outside. I was trying to get like my work-life balance back in order, so it's only working a maximum of 8 hours a day. [Chuck laughs]

Panel Eric Davis (twitter github blog) Charles Max Wood (twitter github Teach Me To Code Rails Ramp Up) Discussion
01:13 - Is there value in testing and refactoring? Client Value vs Developer Value Unit Tests Acceptance Tests 09:22 - Saving time and money Better Code Maintainability 13:45 - When not doing tests hurts
14:39 - Refactoring “Changing Shit”/Restructuring 19:48 - Approaching restructuring “Leave it better than you found it” Use metrics Coding “taste” and style 30:36 - Software exists to provide value
32:33 - Documentation
34:45 - Getting clients to see the value in tests Characterization Tests 41:04 - Deployment
42:57 - Client Dictatorship Using specific libraries or tools or databases The Trust Factor 054 – Red Flags with Potential or Current Clients with Ashe Dryden Draconian technology Picks Software Engineers Spend Lots of Time Not Building Software (Eric) Status Board (Eric) Backbone.js (Chuck) Toy Story: Smash It! (Chuck) Next Week
Overcoming Burnout
Transcript [Hosting and bandwidth provided by the Blue Box Group. Check them out at bluebox.net] CHUCK: Hey everybody and welcome to Episode 58 of the Ruby Freelancers Show! This week on our panel, we have Eric Davis. ERIC: Hello! CHUCK: I'm Charles Max Wood from devchat.tv. It looks like everybody else is busy, so it's just going to be us this week! So how's it going, Eric? ERIC: I'm not that busy. I had a busy week last week; and basically, I actually took yesterday off. So, I'm just starting to kind of get back into things again so I actually have a bunch of time. CHUCK: Yeah. I just picked up another contract so things are starting to ramp up for me again. And then I'm trying to get all these stuff together for a few other things I've got going on. But yeah, there's always something to do. ERIC: Yeah. The hamster world never stops spinning. CHUCK: Yup. I'm seriously thinking about going and taking a nap after this instead of working, though. So this week, we're going to be talking about "How to Convince Clients of the Value of Test and Refactoring" and things like that. I guess we should talk about the premise really quickly of "Is there value in Test and Refactoring and stuff?" ERIC: Yeah. I don't know, I don't agree with a lot of the kind of popular opinion about bits on how you test everything and all that stuff. I'm very -- pragmatic is a good way of raising about it, I'm not sure -- I think there's value there, but I don't think there's as much value as a lot of people place in it. And especially if you consider it from the client's perspective, there might not be as much value in testing and refactoring, all that stuff, as developers put into it. CHUCK: Okay. What value do you see in tests? ERIC: For client, the value that they're going to get out of test is going to be "Regression Type Test", like this bug occurred, it was fixed; there's a test to prove it's never going to come back. There's also value in kind of like "End-to-End Test" - some people call that "Exception Test" or "Integration Test" where the system works from point A to point C going through point B. That's where the clients are hopefully really involved with like writing the test, how it's going to flow, and all that stuff. In those cases, I think there's a lot of value for the client. Depending on the client and the type of software you're building, they might not want to put a lot of time into it. I've had couple of clients where they are too busy to actually write this Sentence test, and so I would write them based on what the client would tell me, and then as we iterate on it like the workflow, we would tweak or understand the system and I would take that understanding and write the test for them. On the other hand, "Unit Test" I think for a client, there's very little value for them directly in unit test. I think,

Panel Ashe Dryden (twitter github blog) Eric Davis (twitter github blog) Jeff Schoolcraft (twitter github blog) Charles Max Wood (twitter github Teach Me To Code Rails Ramp Up) Discussion
00:39 - Experience working with fixed bids
04:08 - Risks Value 06:45 - Collecting Payment Working in phases and milestones 08:56 - Are fixed bid projects fair?
16:57 - Nailing down specifics
19:51 - Dealing with scope creep Contract clauses/additional contracts 26:15 - Getting clients to agree with your fixed bid or hourly preference
28:29 - Estimates Prioritizing Point estimation 37:11 - Transitioning from fixed bid to hourly work
38:42 - Figuring out what to bid Project management Value-Based Fees: How to Charge - and Get - What You're Worth by Alan Weiss Option pricing 44:41 - Ask clients why they prefer fixed bid pricing Picks Healthy Programmer by Joe Kutner (Ashe) DuoLingo (Ashe) #RubyThanks (Ashe) Becoming a Better Programmer Indie GoGo campaign (Ashe) Douglas Rushkoff: Wall Street Journal adaptation from Present Shock (Eric) Ruby Heroes (Chuck) Colloquy (Chuck) Value-Based Fees: How to Charge - and Get - What You're Worth by Alan Weiss (Jeff) Next Week
How do you convince clients of the value of tests, refactoring, etc.?
Transcript
ERIC: Chuck, I'm cold. Keep me warm! [Hosting and bandwidth provided by the Blue Box Group. Check them out at bluebox.net] CHUCK: Hey everybody and welcome to Episode 57 of the Ruby Freelancers Show! This week on our panel, we have Ashe Dryden. ASHE: Hello from Madison, Wisconsin! CHUCK: Eric Davis. ERIC: Hello! CHUCK: Jeff Schoolcraft. JEFF: What's up! CHUCK: I'm Charles Max Wood from devchat.tv. This week, we're going to be talking about "Fixed Bids". How much of you guys done with fixed bids? ASHE: I used to do them a lot more than I do them now; I actually tried to not do fixed bids. CHUCK: Is there a reason for that? ASHE: Yeah. It never really sticks really well with the fixed bid; I mostly do hourly now. I prefer hourly because it allows the client to kind of expand or contract their needs without feeling limited by the contract and it makes me feel less mean. CHUCK: Oh, it makes sense. ASHE: So I don't have to constantly say "Well, that wasn't really part of the original contract". I can give them what they need and what they want without having to have that difficult conversation. CHUCK: How about you guys, Eric and Jeff? JEFF: I've done a few very small fixed bid projects. But by large, I'm mostly hourly mostly for the same reason as Ashe has. And beyond that, it's really hard to get a scope timed on off and it makes it comfortable for me to try to bid on something. ERIC: For me...I don't know, maybe 20% if that -- I actually have a different reason. I don't mind fixed bids, but the project has to be very specific. There has to be a lot of trust between me and the client first off so that I can trust that they're going to understand what's cocube is; we don't have those problems or discussions. The other side of it is, the project has to be [inaudible] and that it's something I've done before or there's not a lot of technical risk on the project. If there is a lot of technical risk for a lot of unknowns, then I basically say "We're going to have to be hourly because I can't guess this upfront and commit to it". CHUCK: Yeah. I've done a couple of fixed bids myself, they were less than a thousand dollars effect; both of them were $500 a piece and it was an enough work that it wasn't that risky. One of them, I really actually didn't get paid on; and it was because I was setting up some software, some third-party software, for somebody on their server. He was unhappy with the result because there was a bug in the software that I set up, but I didn't actually write it. Anyway, it's kind of interesting I haven't done major fixed bid projects,

Panel Ashe Dryden (twitter github blog) Jim Gay (twitter github blog) Eric Davis (twitter github blog) Evan Light (twitter github blog) Charles Max Wood (twitter github Teach Me To Code Rails Ramp Up) Discussion
01:20 - Finding Projects
04:50 - Being up front with clients about what you do and don’t know
06:14 - People who don’t know as much as they think they do Dunning-Kruger effect 08:21 - “Fake it til you make it” Honesty 11:23 - Offering a technology before you know it can be done Referring someone else instead Contract Specifics 15:59 - Lowering your rate to take a project to break into a new market Value Discounts/Comping Time 22:37 - Getting stuck and taking time to figure things out Time Tracking Reaching out for help in exchange for ____ (temporary mentorship) Velocity Subcontracting 28:35 - Taking a project because you want to learn a specific skill
30:02 - Refactoring Convincing a client that it’s good to refactor Showing good code vs bad good Is it code that you’re proud of? Client budget 34:45 - Educating clients on technology Episode 1 - Mongo DB Is Web Scale (NSFW) Technical Risk 37:05 - Panelist New Technology Interest Picks xkcd: Password Strength (Eric) GRC's | Password Haystacks: How Well Hidden is Your Needle? (Eric) Diceware Passphrase (Eric) SaneBox (Eric) Mailbox (Evan) Flexibits | Fantastical for Mac (Evan) How much sleep do we really need to work productively? - The Buffer Blog (Jim) The Visual Display of Quantitative Information by Edward Tufte (Jim) Most Productive Vim Shortcuts (Ashe) UX Apprentice (Ashe) Wool by Hugh Howey (Ashe) Robocalypse (Chuck) The iPhreaks Show (Chuck) Next Week
Fixed Bids
Transcript [Hosting and bandwidth provided by the Blue Box Group. Check them out at bluebox.net] CHUCK: Hey everybody and welcome to Episode 56 of the Ruby Freelancers Show! This week on our panel, we have Ashe Dryden. ASHE: Hi there! CHUCK: Jim Gay. JIM: Hello from Sauna in Virginia Beach! CHUCK: Eric Davis. ERIC: Hello! CHUCK: Evan Light. EVAN: I'm truly confused [inaudible] CHUCK: Is there an order? JIM: Yeah, we had an order? EVAN: I'd do Eric, and then you do me, and then you do whoever else up in a Shell Bluff. CHUCK: Oh! I'm Charles Max Wood from devchat.tv, and I'm doing it wrong...So this week we're going to be talking about "Taking a Project to Learn Something". I think Ashe said it better, so I'm going to let her explain what we're talking about. ASHE: Sure! So basically, the concept of taking on a project specifically say "you can learn something new and expand upon what you already know", so learning on the job kind of thing. CHUCK: You mean like speaking coherently when you didn't sleep last night? ASHE: Exactly like that! [laughs] CHUCK: [laughs] Awesome! JIM: I'm curious then right off of that, because I haven't done a whole lot of that. How do you find these projects? It's one thing to think or I'm going to work on this new technology, but then actually finding somebody who needs it and convincing them that you're the person for the job. ASHE: Well for me, most of the time it's people coming to me asking if I know how to do a certain thing or if I've done a certain thing before. That gives me an idea that that's something that people are looking for, or it's maybe something that I should look into more and maybe think about learning. I don't generally go out of my way to find projects that are for something that I haven't been learning or haven't wanting to learn. EVAN: Yeah, same here. My current projects -- I'm doing a lot more JavaScripts than I normally do and I've been doing JavaScript off and on for a long time, but I haven't play with Backbone, my friends expect this project has a little bit. So what I told the client, because he'd ask if I knew that the other contractor,

Panel Jenn Swanson (twitter Communication Diva eBook) Eric Davis (twitter github blog) Ashe Dryden (twitter github blog) Charles Max Wood (twitter github Teach Me To Code Rails Ramp Up) Discussion
00:32 - Jenn Swanson Introduction C...

Panel Ashe Dryden (twitter github blog) Eric Davis (twitter github blog) Evan Light (twitter github blog) Jeff Schoolcraft (twitter github blog) Charles Max Wood (twitter github Teach Me To Code Rails Ramp Up) Discussion
00:48 - Ashe Dryden Introduction Indie Developer and Conference Organizer from Madison, Wisconsin 02:39 - Contracts Signing yours vs theirs Having a contract The Ruby Freelancers Show 049 - Contracts with Attorney Jared Richards 09:08 - Working with Down Payments and Deposits
10:35 - Clients asking you to reduce your hourly rate or paying you in something other than money
13:26 - Discovery (DaaS - Discovery as a Service)
19:35 - Referral-based Work
20:58 - Business Hours & Availability Poor Project Management Needy Clients Setting clients up to work in a way that works well for you 26:28 - Clients treating consultants and contractors as employees Points of contact 31:49 - Clients not knowing what they want
33:58 - Signing unreasonable non-compete agreements
37:57 - Timelines and Deliverables Asking clients for what you need to do your work/keep deadlines Setting expectations before work begins 45:05 - Communication Meeting in the middle Has the client worked with a freelancer before? 48:02 - Deal Breakers Expertise Conflicts Emergency Deadlines 55:20 - Managing Non-Payment Non-refundable Deposits One strike, two strike approach Mike Monteiro | F*ck You. Pay Me.  (Video, NSFW/language) Freelance Contracts That Anyone Can Understand: Ashe Dryden ashedryden / freelance-contract 58:53 - Client Respect Disappearing Clients Punctuality Meeting Agendas Meetings Picks Arduino (Eric) amperka / ino (Eric) Block Fortress (Evan) Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra Star Trek TNG Shirt | eBay (Evan) Sevabot (Jeff) Google Calendar (Chuck) Amazon S3 (Chuck) graze (Ashe) Gittip (Ashe) DAYTUM (Ashe) Next Week
Better Communications with Clients, Prospects, and other Contractors with Jenn Swanson (Communication Diva)
Transcript CHUCK: That's true. I have pretty high tolerance for a lot of things. EVAN: Well, you work with Dave Brady, right? [Hosting and bandwidth provided by the Blue Box Group. Check them out at bluebox.net] CHUCK: Hey everybody and welcome to Episode 54 of The Ruby Freelancers Show. This week on our panel, we have Eric Davis. ERIC: Hello! CHUCK: Evan Light. EVAN: It's really episode 42.. CHUCK: Jeff Schoolcraft. JEFF: What's up! CHUCK: I'm Charles Max Wood from devchat.tv. We have a special guest this week, Ashe Dryden. ASHE: Hi there! CHUCK: Do you want to introduce yourself really quickly since you haven't been on the show? ASHE: Yeah, that's fine. My name is Ashe Dryden, obviously. I live in Madison, Wisconsin; I'm an indie developer and conference organizer, and generally, community harasser. CHUCK: [laughs] Yes. EVAN: It fits in the one who are troublemaker. [laughter] CHUCK: Yup. We're learning from the best. [Evan laughs] CHUCK: Anyway, this week we're going to be talking about "Red Flags" with potential and current clients. It was interesting the way it came about. I had been fighting with -- I don't want to use the word 'fighting' -- but I had been emailing former client who hadn't paid me for probably like 7 or 8 months. And so there was this whole discussion that we had on Twitter about deposits and things like that, and Ashe mentioned that she has this list -- I don't know if it's a formal list or kind of a mental list -- of red flags that she watches for. So we thought we'd get her on the show to see what red flags she has for current client, some potential clients. I'm sure we all have things to add and experience that we've had with clients that can tell you that some -- EVAN: Oh, no! All my clients have been saints, so I don't know what you're talking about. [silence]

Panel Farnoosh Brock (twitter facebook Prolific Living Prolific Living Podcast The Healthy Juicer’s Bible) Eric Davis (twitter github blog) Evan Light (twitter github blog) Charles Max Wood (twitter github Teach Me To Code Rails Ramp Up) Discussion
00:37 - Farnoosh Brock Introduction Prolific Living New Media Expo 01:41 - Marketing 04:00 - Marketing Coaching Services Book Yourself Solid: The Fastest, Easiest, and Most Reliable System for Getting More Clients Than You Can Handle Even if You Hate Marketing and Selling by Michael Port Target Audience 06:05 - Giving away products vs time and services The Ruby Freelancers Show: 006 - Setting Your Rate 08:32 - Pricing The Prolific Living Podcast Episode 83: 4 Bold Steps to Communicating Your Prices without Apology Price higher than you feel comfortable Handling price criticism 12:54 - Levels of Access Freebies 16:48 - Value Working backwards pricing idea 19:39 - Advertising Mailing Lists (some at different levels of marketing aggressiveness) Guest Posting Blogging Social Media LinkedIn Groups Forums 23:59 - Closing Sales on the Phone Zig Ziglar 26:40 - Video Marketing Free content as teaser to paid content Credibility 31:51 - Effective Marketing Strategies Escape from Cubicle Nation 48 Days, LLC Cliff Ravenscraft 36:17 - Podcasting 37:46 - Getting on other people’s radar 39:33 - Help a Reporter Out (HARO) (Vocus will call you once as soon as you create an account. Saying you aren't interested will stop calls.) 45:39 - Speaking/Webinars SlideShare Speaker Deck The Ruby Freelancers Show: 036 - Speaking at Conferences 49:09 - Book Marketing (Self-Publishing) Amazon Author Central Reviews Farnoosh's Amazon Page Kindle Direct Publishing (KDP) 55:13 - Book Marketing (w/ a Publisher) Taking the lead 59:05 - Self-publishing vs going w/ a traditional publisher 01:03:19 - Making the right product for your market Building your platform Amy Hoy The Formula You Need: 30 x 500: Zero to Launch for Your Very First Paying Product Picks Seth Godin's Blog: Choose your customers first (Eric) "If it Bleeds, it Leads" (Evan) Patterns of Enterprise Application Architecture by Martin Fowler (Evan) Ruby Midwest (Evan) VIM to EMACS (Evan) Hazel (Chuck) Battlestar Galactica (Chuck) House of Cards (Evan) Young Justice: Invasion Destiny Calling - Season 2 (Evan) Asana (Farnoosh) Scrivener (Farnoosh) Edirol Recorder (Farnoosh) Paul Graham: You Weren't Meant to Have a Boss (Farnoosh) On Writing: A Memoir Of The Craft by Stephen King (Farnoosh) Next Week
Red Flags with Potential or Current Clients with Ashe Dryden
Transcript [Hosting and bandwidth provided by the Blue Box Group. Check them out at bluebox.net] CHUCK: Hey everybody and welcome to Episode 53 of The Ruby Freelancers Show. This week on our panel, we have Eric Davis. ERIC: Hello! CHUCK: We also have Evan Light. EVAN: Chuck had to think about Eric for a moment there... CHUCK: [laughs] I'm Charles Max Wood from Devchat.tv. And this week we have a special guest, and that's Farnoosh Brock! FARNOOSH: Hi! Thank you so much for having me on! CHUCK: You haven't been on the before; do you want to introduce yourself really quickly? FARNOOSH: Yes! My name is Farnoosh Brock, and I am the president and founder of Prolific Living, and that's at prolificliving.com. Chuck and I met at New Media Expo back in January and we had a lot of fun! He was really shocked that he met an electrical engineer -- an ex-electrical engineer -- at the party there, and we just hit it off! So, thank you so much for inviting me to the show. CHUCK: Yeah, no problem! It was kind of interesting when we met. First off, I met your husband before I met you. He's a photographer,

Panel Eric Davis (twitter github blog) Charles Max Wood (twitter github Teach Me To Code Rails Ramp Up) Discussion
00:57 - Wanna be a regular Ruby Freelancer Panelist? Tweet interest to @rubyfreelancers02:12 - Big Company Layoffs ...

Panel E. Scott Sweeney, CPA ([email protected] 801-756-3394) Eric Davis (twitter github blog) Charles Max Wood (twitter github Teach Me To Code Rails Ramp Up) Discussion
01:02 - Scott Sweeney Introduction The Ruby Freelancers Show 01...

Panel Steve Kloyda (twitter facebook linkedin youtube The Prospecting Expert) Eric Davis (twitter github blog) Charles Max Wood (twitter github Teach Me To Code Rails Ramp Up) Discussion
01:03 - Steve Kloyda Introduction The Prospecting Expert The Prospecting Minute 02:38 - Being a good prospector Never stop prospecting Passion 04:42 - Prospecting and Selling To Sell Is Human: The Surprising Truth about Moving Others by Daniel H. Pink 08:10 - Marketing and Sales Cliff Ravenscraft 12:05 - Prospecting Tools Email Text Messaging Video Social Media The Icarus Deception: How High Will You Fly? by Seth Godin The Thank You Economy by Gary Vaynerchuk 19:25 - Audience Connect Educate Engage 24:54 - The Wizard of Oz Purpose Who Game Plan Solution Next Step 34:03 - The Best Next Step 38:31 - Referrals Fear of rejection Psychology Centers of Influence 46:51 - Keeping the sales process simple Ask for the business Objections  Picks Indie Game: The Movie (Eric) Anker Battery Pack (Chuck) Parade of Homes (Chuck) Evernote (Steve) Evernote Hello (Steve) Evernote Food (Steve) Nozbe (Steve) How I Raised Myself from Failure to Success in Selling by Frank Bettger (Steve) The Icarus Deception: How High Will You Fly? by Seth Godin (Steve) Next Week
Bookkeeping and Business Expenses with Scott Sweeney
Transcript [Are you a busy Ruby developer who wants to take their freelance business to the next level? Interested in working smarter not harder? Then check out the upcoming book “Next Level Freelancing - Developer Edition Practical Steps to Work Less, Travel and Make More Money”. It includes interviews and case studies with successful freelancers, who have made a killing by expanding their consultancy, develop passive income through informational products, build successful SaaS products, and become rockstar consultants making a minimum of $200/hour. There are all kinds of practical steps on getting started and if you sign up now, you’ll get 50% off when it’s released. You can find it at nextlevelfreelancing.com] [Hosting and bandwidth provided by the Blue Box Group. Check them out at bluebox.net] CHUCK: Hey everybody and welcome to Episode 50 of The Ruby Freelancers Show. This week on our panel, we have Eric Davis. ERIC: Hello! CHUCK: I'm Charles Max Wood from devchat.tv. I just want to remind you that you have one week left to go sign up for Rails Ramp Up at railsrampup.com. And we have a special guest and that is Steve Kloyda! STEVE: It's great to be here, thanks for having me. CHUCK: Oh it's great to have you! I met Steve at the New Media Expo. He was hanging out with the bunch of us from Cliff Ravenscraft's "Podcast Mastermind", and it turns out that he knows a lot about prospecting for potential clients. And it seems like that's one of the hard things that we have to do as programmers - to find new clients. So I invited him to the show and we are happy to have you. STEVE: It's really great to be here. And yes, we are all searching for new clients at point or another and it's probably one of the biggest challenges that entrepreneurs, small business owners, and sales people face on a daily basis. So I'm really excited to be here to talk about it because this is my passion. CHUCK: Awesome! You're also the podcasting expert at thepodcastingexpert.com, correct? STEVE: Yes "theprospectingexpert".. CHUCK: [laughs] Sorry.. STEVE: It's alright. Theprospectingexpert.com is my website address and then I have a podcast that I do every week called "The Prospecting Minute" podcast. CHUCK: Is it longer than a minute, I take it? STEVE: Actually it's 3-5 minutes. Sales people tend to have a very short attention span, and some of my -- I do interview some people and sometimes I go 25 or 30 minutes, but the average show is between 5 and 7 minutes in length. That'll like to give them quick,