The Good Listener Podcast

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From the early years of the conflict up until the end, the British security forces had agents in both the Republican and Loyalist paramilitary groups. This is the story of their two most famous agents, Freddie Scappiticci of the IRA and the UDA’s Brian Nelson.

Legendary journalist and documentary maker, John Ware joins me to talk about his recent book “Neither Confirm Nor Deny”.

He explores the murky world of the British army’s agent running and intel gathering organization, The Force Research Unit, better known as the FRU, its agent handlers and how much control they really had over their operatives like Scap and Nelson.

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Dr. Tony Novosel (Dietrich School of Arts & Sciences) is a historian and educator at the University of Pittsburgh and has dedicated decades to the study of the Northern Ireland conflict and particularly loyalism and political loyalism.

Tony discusses the IRA split of 1969, how the conflict should be characterized, the UVF, Gusty's Spence's influence as well as that of Ian Paisely.

I asked Tony about whether the violence that broke out was inevitable, the common misconceptions surrounding the subject, teaching in the age of ChapGPT and much more.

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TIMESTAMPS
00:00 Who “won” the conflict ?
07:00 United Ireland Vote ?
9:00 Tony’s Path 
14:50 Comparisons to other conflicts 
19:20 Characterizing the conflict 
23:45 Ian Paisley’s Influence 
32:20 Was The Violence Inevitable ?
38:30 UVF & Gusty Spence 
52:40 IRA 
57:40 The original P.I.R.A Army Council 
58:30 Ending Abstentionism
1:21:40 Common misconceptions about the conflict 
1:27:00 Films/TV shows about the troubles 
1:39:30 AI in universities

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In this clip from our upcoming episode, historian and author, Dr. Gareth Mulvenna talks about some of the myths and half-truths that surround the Shankill Butchers, a group of UVF members who terrorized Belfast's catholic community during the height of the troubles.

FULL EPISODE COMING SOON

BUY GARETH'S BOOK : https://www.amazon.com/Tartan-Gangs-Paramilitaries-Loyalist-Backlash/dp/1781383251

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Retired Garda (Irish police) John O' Brien joins us once again, this time to discuss his career as a police officer during the most dangerous times in recent Irish history.

He tells us about his posting in "the south" along the border with the conflicts' most notorious area, South Armagh, better known to some as "Bandit Country". Despite the IRA's rule against engaging Irish state forces John was fired at as he and his colleague gave chase and the two Gardai were lucky to escape unharmed.

John also tells us about the Special Branch unit of the Irish police and it's role in conflict as well as his thoughts on Garda collusion with republican paramilitaries and the role that IRA had in the m*rder of infamous Irish criminal, Martin "The General" Cahill.

00:00 Intro
1:45 John’s understanding of Northern Ireland’s civil inequalities in 1968 
07:10 Starting Garda training 
16:35 First Postings  
28:35 SOUTH ARMAGH BORDER POSTING
48:00 Garda Special Branch 
1:24:25 GARDA COLLUSION W/ IRA ??
1:33:08 Martin “The General” Cahill (m*rdered by the IRA) 

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Christopher “Pinta” McKnight grew up in Derry’s Bogside as this city erupted in violence and as a 15 year old boy he lied about his age and joined the Provisional IRA. Chris talks to us about his life in the IRA which included moving weapons and explosives as a young member , training camps in the Donegal Mountains and working closely with one of the troubles most notorious figures, Martin McGuinness. He tells us about his time on the “blanket protest” and being in Long Kesh during the pivotal 1981 Hunger Strike led by Bobby Sands as well as being the victim of one of Derry’s famous “touts”.

My guest recalls being there for the Battle of Bogside and how losing a childhood mate on Bloody Sunday turned him from a Catholic teen who was friends with a British solider to a young man intent on joining the IRA and waging war on the security forces.

Chris has since ran for public office for Sinn Fein and earned a degree in Law & Politics from Ulster University.

00:00 Growing Up In pre-conflict Derry

06:35 BATTLE OF THE BOGSIDE 

18:25 Bloody Sunday 

41:15 Joining The IRA

46:50 Training Camps

53:00 Martin McGuinness, Claudy B*mb & South Derry 

58:50 Prison

1:16:10 In Long Kesh When Bobby Sands Died 

1:22:45 Martin McGuinness as Chief of Staff

1:25:58 Thoughts on Commercial B*mbing Campaign 

1:26:30 INLA in Derry?

1:28:00 Ray Gilmour 

1:31:45 Did Steaknife come to Derry ?

1:34:40 Cell Structure in Derry

1:43:45 Frank Hegarty 

1:47:50 Derry IRA vs Belfast IRA 

1:50:00 Attempt to recruit Chris as an informant 

1:51:20 Was Martin McGuinness an informant or agent ?

2:01:55 Did Chris see Martin McGuiness change over time? 

2:06:30 Thoughts on “Proxy B*mbs” and Joan Mathers M*rder (1981)

2:10:20 “Pinta” Nickname 

2:11:55 Move towards Politics 

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Stuart Griffiths is an ex-british paratrooper who was stationed in Belfast and East Tyrone during the late 80s/early 90s. His book “Pigs Disco” explores the sub-culture of hard dr*g use in his regiment including LSD and other substances which would get a soldier kicked out of the army.

He speaks about the reality of life on patrol in some of Belfast’s most hostile areas, facing both the IRA and also a population who had particular contempt for the parachute regiment, for obvious reasons. Stu tells us about the toxic environment in the paras and how this plus the conflict itself took it’s toll on his mental health.

He also talks about his time in East Tyrone and how his friend getting his legs blown off by a landmine had an effect on Stu as well as adjusting to adjust to life after the army while dealing with the mental scars of PTSD.

TIMESTAMPS
00:00 “Pigs Disco” 
17:45 On Patrol
23:00 BORN THE DAY AFTER BLOODY SUNDAY 
37:10 Memorable Night in Belfast 
52:05 Colluding With Loyalists??
57:40 Working with RUC (Police) 
1:02:10 East Tyrone 
1:14:30 Running into Ex-IRA member in Belfast 
1:18:15 PTSD

BUY THE BOOK: https://www.amazon.com/ParaTripper-Para-Pap-STORY-Book-ebook/dp/B0GSVXF7M9?ref_=ast_author_mpb

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In June 1987, Thomas Emanuel Wilson, a member of the Official IRA, was abducted and subsequently m*rdered by the Provisional IRA’s “nutting squad”. Like so many of the killings involving Freddie Scappaticci, better known as “Agent Stakeknife”, the victim was lifted and m*rdered on the pretense of being an informer or a “tout”, but he wasn’t. 

Paul Wilson was a very young child when his father was m*rdered and since taken it upon himself to dig as deep as he can to find the truth and possibly get the authorities to do more.

Paul discusses his father’s life, the circumstances of his death, his dealings with the Operation Kenova team and the additional names & information that he has unearthed in the course of his own hunt for the truth. 

TIMESTAMPS 
00:00 Recent Meeting with Kenova Team
1:35 Paul’s Father’s 1987 Life & M*rder (Thomas Emmanuel Wilson)
18:15 When Did Paul Become Aware of Scap (Stakeknife)
23:15 Mi5 Tampering in Kenova Investigation 
29:25 Paul’s Journey Of Discovery 
35:05 The PIRA’s “Internal Security Unit” 
47:35 Further Investigations ?
56:50 Freddie Scappaticci 
1:11:15 Kenova Team 

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John O’Brien is a retired Detective Chief Superintendent of An Garda Síochána, the national police service of Ireland. Over the course of a distinguished policing career that spanned more than 38 years, he held a succession of senior operational and strategic leadership roles.
 
John also served as National Head of Interpol and Europol, playing a pivotal role in fostering cooperation between Irish law enforcement and international policing organisations.

His assessment regarding the Mass Murder of 34 innocents on the 17 May 1974  is that the UVF — acting alone — did not possess the technical, operational, or organisational capacity to execute the Dublin car bombings. John lays out the case based on a layered accumulation of forensic findings, expert military testimony, comparisons with the UVF’s historical bombing record and analysis of the sophisticated planning required for the Dublin operation.

00:00 Could the UVF have acted alone ?
03:20 THE DAY OF THE B*MBINGS ??????
13:25 “The Killing Years”
29:20 The B*mb Signature
47:23 EXPERT MILITARY OPINION
58:20 British Strategy & Kenova
1:09:35 Did the UVF get help planning the attack
1:31:00 Final Thoughts

BUY JOHN'S BOOKS : https://www.jaobrien.ie/home

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**NOT A CLIP FROM MARTIN'S LAST INTERVIEW**

Ex-republcian prisoner Martin McAllister joins us again to share the story of one of the IRA's most brazen and risky one-man prison escapes, an escape that was masterminded & executed in the space of 2 hours. It resulting in an IRA man walking straight out of the British internment camp, all while being assisted, unwittingly, by one of the top prison guards.  

Martin, not content with having once taken part in a mass-jailbreak from Portlaoise max-security prison, employed his skills of observation and opportunism to free a fellow republican prisoner who started the morning completely unaware that he would walk straight out of Long Kesh that day.

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For the episode I’m joined by ex Royal Ulster Constabulary and PSNI officer Sam Thompson. Sam spent his teen years growing up in a 1970s Belfast and remembers seeing his city descend into chaos and violence as the conflict erupted. Despite this Sam elected to join the police force which brought him face to face with danger in some of Northern Ireland’s most deadly areas including East Tyrone, Armagh and Springfield Road in Belfast.

Sam shares stories about narrowly avoiding death at the hands of the IRA 3 times within a week and how some of his fellow officers weren’t so quite lucky.

We spoke about the importance of conversations about the conflict and of preserving the stories/memories of those who were there as well as how Sam ended up making friends with ex republican paramilitaries. 

00:00 Making friends with ex-IRA men 
06:25 Growing up 
19:30 Joining the RUC 
38:40 INLA in Armagh 
43:45 British soldiers telling Loyalists that they’re “Not British”
47:07 BELFAST (Springfield Road station)
57:00 UDR 
59:55 Collusion ?
1:29:15 Most memorable moments from Sam’s career
1:32:15 Thoughts “Say Nothing” tv series 
1:35:45 Sam’s writing 
1:43:00 Common misconceptions 

 BUY SAM’s NOVEL: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Nights-Armour-Samuel-Thompson/dp/178117699X

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