The How NOT To Make A Movie Podcast

The idea seemed so natural. Get WILLIAM FRIEDKIN – director of “THE EXORCIST” – to direct an episode of our little horror anthology TV show – “TALES FROM THE CRYPT“. It just so happened that RICHARD DONNER – director of another great contemporary horror classic, THE OMEN – was one of our illustrious executive producers. It made hiring Friedkin a no-brainer to us.

But then, another of our EP’s – the mercurial JOEL SILVER – told us (or, rather, screamed at us) that we were crazy.

“He’ll kill you! He’ll fuckin’ kill you!” is how Joel put it.

Now, remember: that was Joel Silver talking and Joel was notorious for being someone who “fuckin’ killed’ other people as easily as he breathed. But, Gil and I persisted.

We figured, compared to Joel, how fuckin’ crazy could Billy Friedkin be?

As you’ll hear in the episode, Gil went right at that question and invited Billy to lunch where Gil read Billy the riot act right up front. He put Billy on notice that we shot every episode in five days – even Zemeckis! – so Billy wasn’t getting a sixth day no matter what, so he better toe the line right fucking now!

For a moment, Gil was convinced that Billy was going take a swing at him. But, then Billy laughed instead. He had come out of guerilla filmmaking, so this – using our wits more than our wallet – felt familiar in the best ways.

Billy had no issues whatsoever playing by Crypt rules. And his episode – “On A Dead Man’s Chest” is a classic.

Helping us reminisce about our collective experience working with this iconic, mercurial, driven but deeply collaborative talent will be Randall Thropp (Crypt’s wardrobe supervisor), Todd Masters (Crypt’s make up special effects guru), Sherrie Rose (one of the episode’s actors), Ed Tapia (Gil & Alan’s executive assistant) and Jason Stein (one of the Dad’s From The Crypt – who co-executive produce this podcast).

One of the joys of doing Crypt was getting to work with some iconic filmmakers. With some – like director Billy Friedkin, it was both a joy and a Master Class. Quick note – we recorded this confab a few days after Billy died August last year.

To mangle Shakespeare, we did not come to bury Billy, we came to praise the hell out of him!

As we’ve said here before, one of the very best parts of doing Tales From The Crypt (and there were lots of best parts) was getting to work with incredibly talented people. This episode features another TALES FROM THE CRYPT reunion – this time with comedian RITA RUDNER who starred (alongside her friend RICHARD LEWIS in the episode WHIRLPOOL (directed by MICK GARRIS).

Rita didn’t start out as a standup. She started out as a dancer (which she started doing at three). One of the things we spend some time talking about – in our sit down with Rita – is the journey that took her – via dancing and Broadway – to comedy.

How did a nice, gentle person like Rita survive the very male, very rough-and-tumble world of standup comedy?

How has Rita survived as long as she has doing comedy?

One way is by being multi-talented. She writes as funny as she speaks – which made Rita (and her husband Martin Bergman) one of the most sought after re-write teams in the business for a while. Together they wrote PETER’S FRIENDS for Martin’s college friend group (you know, people like KENNETH BRANAGH, EMMA THOMPSON and STEPHEN FRYE).

And, we talk about what it takes to still be funny in a world as deadly serious as ours. There are ways to do it!

So, join us for the reunion!

You know how you meet someone – on the set of a movie – say TALES FROM THE CRYPT PRESENTS DEMON KNIGHT, and the first thought that hits you (after “wow, he’s a nice guy”) is “Wow – that guy is smart, too!”? That’s Charlie Fleischer!

Being smart – especially that smart – has a lot of the same hallmarks as being nuts. Those kinda people tend to focus with manic intensity on things.

And when they do, they kinda look like they know things no one else does.

Yeah – that, too, is what it’s like meeting and knowing Charlie Fleischer.

Most people know Charlie as THE VOICE OF ROGER RABBIT.

But that was hardly Charlie’s first time at the rodeo.

Since the 1970’s, he’s appeared regularly in human form as an actor and standup, on TV and movies.

He was a regular on “Welcome Back Kotter” and “Laverne & Shirley”. He appeared on “Laugh-In” and “The Tonight Show With Johnny Carson”. The second time Charlie did the Carson show, he did panel. Sitting beside Johnny was the point of the exercise. Charlie had – and has – a solid body of acting work to his name and credit.

But, Charlie Fleischer is way , waaaaay more than just an actor and comedian. He’s a Renaissance Person who paints, creates music – and writes scientific papers.

We’ll get into all of it as we try and answer the question we posed in the episode’s title.

Is Charlie nuts? Or is he just smarter than everyone else?

You be the judge…

Here are the art pieces we reference in the podcast –

Here is a link to one of Charlie’s Ted Talks –

Dirty little secrets… Show biz is filled to the brim with em. And Tobe Hooper’s dirty little secret? It might just could blow your mind…

One of the greatest things about doing TALES FROM THE CRYPT – and there were lots and lots of great things about it – was getting to work with all the talented people we got to work with. There were a lot of pinch me moments because of it.

Kirk Douglass, Tom Hanks, Daniel Craig, Billy Friedkin, John Frankenheimer – our executive producers Dick Donner, Bob Zemeckis and Walter Hill – see?

Pinch me!

And, prominent in the Pinch Me Club experience was working with horror meister TOBE HOOPER. Tobe wasn’t just another horror director ffs, he was one of the inventors of the modern independent horror movie! He was also a terrific movie-maker (in the most serious sense) to begin with.

And a terrific person on top of it all!

Spoiler alert – that’s Tobe Hooper’s big, dirty secret. For all the blood and gore and horror he envisioned, the man himself was absolutely lovely. A real pleasure to know.

In this episode, in addition to sharing our own stories about working with Tobe – and, in Gil’s case, knowing Tobe as a friend – we’ll talk to KIM HENKEL – cowriter with Tobe of the TEXAS CHAINSAW MASSACRE screenplay – and a longtime friend of Tobe’s.

We’ll talk to LEVIE ISAACKS.  Levie was one of Tobe’s regular directors of photography. He has an uncredited voice role in Chainsaw.. And, of course, Levie was a long time DP on Tales From The Crypt.

Finally, we’ll talk to the DADS FROM THE CRYPT – Jason, Jody and Mando – all huge Tobe Hooper fans – fand get their insights into Tobe and his considerable body of work.

So – if you’re a Tobe Hooper fan, you’re in very, very good company with a lot of other Tobe Hooper fans.

Now, you can keep a secret, right?

In this one, we talk CREATIVE SYNERGY. In this case, the remarkable synergy between our guests THE CHIODA BROTHERS, creators of KILLER KLOWNS FROM OUTER SPACE (celebrating its 35TH ANNIVERSARY). The Chiodas also create lots of other great MOVIE & TV work including some brilliant stuff for TEAM AMERICA, the SIMPSONS and MARCEL THE SHELL WITH SHOES ON.

Synergy is a remarkable thing. It’s the spark that ignites when a collaboration between two people suddenly takes wing.

That spark can also ignite between lots more than just two people. And, when it does – and the synergy starts to flow – there’s nothing like it.

Gil and I had to find each other in order to become a creative team. The Chiodas had an advantage because they were brothers.

Now, not all family acts become THE MARX BROTHERS. Plenty turn into the MURDOCHS or the REDSTONES.

But, the Chiodas – Stephens, Edward and Charles – had synergy from the drop.

You can feel it in their puppetry and their puppet creations – everything from MARCEL THE SHELL WITH SHOES ON, work they’ve done on THE SIMPSONS and for TEAM AMERICA (among many, many others).

And, of course, you can witness it in all its glory in the Chioda’s masterpiece, the B movie classic “KILLER KLOWNS FROM OUTER SPACE“, now celebrating its 35th anniversary.

When Gil and I were doing Crypt – all those years ago – our management (ours and the Chioda’s) – thought there’d be synergy between the five of us.

The whole idea was the KILLER KLOWN guys plus THE CRYPT KEEPER guys equals movie or TV series gold! Back up the Brinks truck, brother!

Alas, we never got that far down any creative roads together.

Or, should I say, we haven’t yet. Who knows what creative “mischief” a bunch of Killer Klowns and the Crypt Keeper could get up to together…

Everybody needs a good mechanic, am I right? Someone who understands what you have and what you might could do with it. Alas, not all mechanics are created equal.

For a decade or so, I had a GREAT mechanic.

Well, he wasn’t actually a mechanic, he was my agent. His name is Nick Mechanic but, most people called him just “Mechanic”.

For a long time, I was repped by the iconic William Morris Agency (back before they joined with the iconic Endeavor agency to become the super-duper iconic WME agency). During my first stint at Willie Mo, my agent Carol Yumkas (a friend to whom I still owe an apology), scored me a couple of feature gigs. During my second stint – after I’d partnered with Gil Adler, after we’d been running Tales From The Crypt – got us all kinds of cool action.

One things agents and managers do a lot is mix clients together to try and create both synergy and an additional paycheck. Our agent at the time – Mark Itkin – scored us lots of cool stuff: a pay or play development deal at ABC Productions (which we squandered alas!) and a project in development with STAN LEE (who they also represented at the time).

Eventually, Gil and I parted ways with William Morris… then I parted ways with Gil and spent some time in the representation wilderness. Until my friend and occasional co-writer Scott Nimerfro suggested I meet with a young buck who was tearing it up at a boutique talent agency called “The Agency”.

From the moment we first sat down together – or prowled around the desk at each other – Nick and I bonded. He got me, I got him. We got us. Nick got me onto The Outer Limits as a co-executive producer – a great gig at a moment when I most needed it.

If that was the only thing that ever happened between us, I’d be eternally grateful to the guy. Ah, but there’s so very much more!

If I tell you he’s a character, I’m underselling him. Nick was and is a force of nature. And his story – like his stories – will blow your mind.

In addition to being a great agent and living The Hollywood Life on a knife’s edge, Nick also has been a drug addict, a fall-down-pass-out-take-him-to-the-ER drunk, a convicted criminal and, now – THANKFULLY – a person in full recovery, fighting that good fight (to stay recovered) every damned day. And succeeding!

Not your average Hollywood story, Nick Mechanic.

Not even remotely. But so very worth a listen!

Join us as we revisit a perfect example of How NEVER To Make A Movie, perhaps the worst dirty movie ever, CALIGULA (Roger Ebert certainly thought it was and who are we to argue?). How did this immortal fiasco happen? Didn’t all those famous actors like JOHN GIELGUD, PETER O’TOOLE, HELEN MIRREN and especially MALCOLM MCDOWELL know what they were signing onto? Why did the movie’s author, GORE VIDAL, take his name off the movie entirely (when it was supposed to be called “Gore Vidal’s Caligula”)?

Our mission with The How NOT To Make A Movie Podcast has always been to give our audience a truly inside baseball, nuts-n-bolts view of the process that goes into making movies and TV shows with an especial focus on what happens when all that film-making craft turns to crap.

It’s easy to be mediocre. Hell, anyone can do that.

Excelling at things is much harder. It requires work – and that’s regardless of whether the work product being produced is good or bad.

I speak from painful experience.

I worked my ass off making Bordello Of Blood – and I knew it was going to suck even as I made it.

Okay – I think it sucks. Its audience doesn’t.

But, making that movie was an unpleasant, unsatisfying and unrewarding experience in every way up until the moment we started making this podcast about it.

As I think about other examples of “How Not To Make A Movie”, plenty spring to mind.

Like I said – mediocrity is everywhere. Good thing, too.

If everyone was excellent all the time?

Excellence would be the new mediocrity and who needs to work that hard?

There have been plenty of bad film-makers who wanted to make GOOD movies but… simply lacked the talent – or any grasp whatsoever of the cinematic language.

And there have been and are film makers who don’t actually speak it.

Guys like ED WOOD – a man who couldn’t even achieve mediocrity he was so untalented – made nothing but bad movies.

It’s perfectly understandable that Ed Wood and his movies define suckage. And that’s why – to me – guys like Ed Wood can’t possibly count here.

There’s low hanging fruit and then there’s them. Even the bugs and mold don’t want them.

A year ago, we published this episode about the making of Caligula – How NOT To Make A Porno”.

It’s been a very popular episode.

If you’ve heard or seen it already – I’m biased of course – but, I think you’ll find it’s worth another listen.

The story of how Caligula got made is that batshit crazy.

If you haven’t heard it yet, you’re in for an even bigger treat.

It’s the story of a man and a vision. And a lot of very talented people. And a disconnect.  The result?

A movie so stunningly bad, it takes your breath away.

And, while you’re watching it? The will to live.

These days, anyone can make a movie. Anyone can make a porno.  Lots do!

Audiences have high expectations from movies. That’s why screwing them up is so easy.

But, screwing up a porno?

WTF!

Set up the camera and walk away. You’ll still make a porno better than Caligula.

That’s why we celebrate an achievement as orgasmically bad as Caligula.

Its tortured story demands to be told again and again. And again.

This is one of those pieces of history no one wants anyone repeating.

Please – enjoy one of our most popular episodes ever (about making the worst dirty movie ever), “How NOT To Make A Porno – the story of making CALIGULA”.

The CRYPT KEEPER – the iconic host of HBO’S iconic TALES FROM THE CRYPT TV series – was just an animatronic puppet of course. But he completely represented everything about the show. He was and is the show’s “franchise”. But, if there was a “real” Crypt Keeper – a kind of Ground Zero for everything Tales From The Crypt –  it was EC COMICS publisher WILLIAM M. GAINES (Bill Gaines – who also created MAD MAGAZINE).

In creating the Crypt Keeper (he only exists in the show; he appears nowhere in the EC comic books), what we were really trying to capture was the very essence of Bill Gaines himself.

I grew up a huge fan of Mad and the EC Comics that preceded it – like Tales From The Crypt.

Just reading Mad was like getting a Masters Class in comedy.  At Mad, they celebrated Bill Gaines – the man they worked for – even as they made fun of him.

Now, while Bill Gaines didn’t write or draw anything himself, he was the writing and the artwork’s organizing principle.

It may not have flowed from him literally, but it flowed from him nonetheless.

EC and Mad both represented the world as Bill Gaines saw it.

Back when I was huddled under the blankets with a stack of Tales From The Crypt comic books? It would have seemed a total impossibility that one day, I would write and produce the TV version of one of Bill Gaines’ creations.

It would have seemed an even bigger impossibility that I would get to meet him – and get his blessing for my TV version – as part of the bargain.

And yet, that happened.

With one or two exceptions, I have never been a starfucker. God, I don’t care about stars. But Bill Gaines was one of those exceptions.

Meeting him – and I say this as a devout atheist – was like meeting God. And it definitely lived up to the moment.

Yeah – Bill Gaines inspired me.

Wanna color outside the lines? Go ahead!

Wanna point at the emperor and the fact that he’s not wearing any clothes? Point away – and make sure to laugh extra loud at the emperor’s microscopic schween.

What, me worry?

No, Alfred E – I ain’t worrying. Cos you ain’t worrying.

Let’s revisit our friend “The Reluctant Vampire”. MALCOLM MCDOWELL. When I was a kid, just beginning to acquire a “taste for cinema”, one of the first movies that gave me that taste was STANLEY KUBRICK’s “A CLOCKWORK ORANGE”. But, there was another Malcolm McDowell movie that struck me even more round about the same time: Lindsey Anderson’s “IF” (that’s the old “If“, not the new “If”).

When I was 16, I took part in a little research study. A group of the smart kids from my high school were shown “If” and then asked a bunch of questions about it.

The movie’s about a boy’s military school in England and what happens when one of the students – Malcolm’s character – begins to plot against the uptight upper class toffs who run the place.

Malcolm’s entrance is fantastic! So’s the rest of his performance. In fact, his work in “If” is what got him cast in Clockwork Orange.

As Stanley Kubrick said when he saw If – We found our Alex!

As I’ve said here frequently, one of the great thrills of making TALES FROM THE CRYPT for HBO was getting to work with actors and directors and everyone in between from all those movies I’d fallen in love with while I was falling in love with the movies.

Clockwork Orange was a double header. I also got to work with – and became quite close with AUBREY MORRIS. He plays Mr Deltoid, Alex’s counselor-slash-parole-officer. Aubrey appeared in Bordello Of Blood.

Malcolm epitomized our approach to casting Crypt. We always wanted to cast against type – especially with our stars. Malcolm was still building a career playing dark characters and villains when we met him.

Later in his career, he went on to play Sauron in Star Trek: Generations – that’s the guy who kills Captain James T. Kirk – you can’t get more villainous than that.

We cast Malcolm as THE RELUCTANT VAMPIRE. A vampire who, frankly, hates killing people. So he gets a job as a night watchman in a blood bank.

It’s a very sweet episode.

In addition to talking Crypt and Clockwork and If, we’ll touch on another part of Malcolm’s canon:

CALIGULA.

Here on the podcast, we’ve focused on Caligula as an example of both how not to make a movie and how not to make porn.

Boy, does Malcolm have Caligula stories!

But, first, we’re gonna talk a little footie…

This very definitely is a “special episode” of the How NOT to Make A Movie Podcast. In the TV business, calling things “Special” has a long, rich history. “Special Episodes” are usually “relationship” episodes tied to family. Well, that’s exactly how we feel here at The How NOT To Make A Movie Podcast – about our new SISTER PODCAST – THE DONOR: A MODERN HORROR STORY.

We’re also fans of great storytelling here – of course – and one thing I can tell you about The Donor: A Modern Horror Story is that it tells a story you probably haven’t heard before. And in addition being a great story? It’s absolutely TRUE!

It’s about a guy named HAL who worked his way through medical school in the mid 1980’s as an anonymous sperm donor.

Jump forward 25 years.

Now a successful radiologist, Hal was one of personal genomic company 23AndMe’s very first customers – interested in learning about his health genes.

But there were ramifications to adding his DNA to 23AndMe’s growing DNA database. The biggest? Hal the anonymous sperm donor lost his veil of anonymity.

Suddenly seven total strangers found “daddy”.

That was surprising enough for daddy. But, it was way, WAAAAAY more surprising to Hal’s donor kids – all now adults. Six of them had no idea whatsoever that they were the product of a sperm donation.

It’s a rollercoaster ride of a story. And you’ll learn about a world you probably didn’t even know existed.

As for it being “A Modern Horror Story” – well, there are definitely a few monsters.  

We really are proud of The Donor here at Costard And Touchstone Productions. So – please – check out episode one: “Who Am I?”

We hope you enjoy it and want to hear more of this limited, 7-part series.

While episode one will be available everywhere podcasts can be found, the rest of the podcast will only be available at our website – thedonorpodcast.com.

Better yet, save your fingertips and point your phone at the QR code.

But, first – here’s episode one of “The Donor: A Modern Horror Story – Who Am I?” for your listening pleasure.