This episode was first released in June 2022. 

What does a natural landscape look like to you? Maybe you think of a dense forest, or a sparkling body of water. Somewhere untouched by humans, right? Maybe the word "wilderness" comes to mind.

Today we're hearing from someone who wants you to think twice about this idea of wilderness.

Michael-Shawn Fletcher is a geographer and a descendant of the Wiradjuri – and he wants to challenge the idea that country that's untouched by humans is a good thing.

Guest:Associate Professor Michael-Shawn FletcherGeographer, University of Melbourne

Presenter:Tegan Taylor

Producer:Tegan Taylor, James Bullen