Long before Sarah's daughter Chloe Hayden became an award-winning actress starring in Netflix's Heartbreak High, she was a kid facing immense struggles. Chloe was sensitive to smells, lights and foods; she had no friends; she hated school.

Sarah never suspected Chloe was autistic, but that’s only because her idea of what autism looked like came from the film Rain Man.

Sarah is now a social worker and equine assisted therapist, working with neurodiverse families.

In this episode, Sarah shares her family’s story, her advice for parents navigating school refusal and food aversion – and the shock of getting her own surprise ADHD diagnosis later in life.

You can catch up on more episodes of the All in the Mind podcast with journalist and presenter Sana Qadar, exploring the psychology of topics like stress, memory, communication and relationships on the ABC Listen app (Australia) or wherever you get your podcasts.

Guest:

Sarah HaydenSocial workerEquine assisted therapistAuthor, Parenting Different

Credits:

• Presenter/producer: Sana Qadar
• Producer: Rose Kerr
• Senior producer: James Bullen
• Sound engineer: Roi Huberman

Support services:

Butterfly Foundation

Lifeline

More information:

Eating disorders and autism

Anorexia Nervosa and Autism Spectrum Disorder: A Systematic Review

Autism spectrum disorder and anorexia nervosa: Investigating the behavioural and neurocognitive overlap

Personal essay: "I was unseen, even to myself"

Adolescents With Autism Spectrum Disorder and Anorexia Nervosa Comorbidity: Common Features and Treatment Possibilities With Cognitive Remediation Therapy and Oxytocin

Disability advocates say NDIS changes disregard alternative therapy benefits

Effects of Equine Therapy on Individuals with Autism Spectrum Disorder: a Systematic Review

Equine-Assisted Therapy for Children with Autism Spectrum Disorder: a Comprehensive Literature Review

Equine assisted activities and therapies in children with autism spectrum disorder: A systematic review and a meta-analysis

Autism and Equine-Assisted Interventions: A Systematic Mapping Review

Effects of Equine-Assisted Activities and Therapies for Individuals with Autism Spectrum Disorder: Systematic Review and Meta-Analysis

Effectiveness of Equine-Assisted Activities and Therapies for Children with Autism Spectrum Disorder: An Update

A Scoping Review of Equine-Assisted Therapies on the Mental Health and Well-Being of Autistic Children and Adolescents: Exploring the Possibilities

We've all dreamt of lobbing our smartphone into the ocean and going off grid.

So what happens when you follow through with it?

For the final episode of Brain Rot, we speak to the people who decided they'd had enough.

From a French village, to Gen Z 'luddites' in New York City and a group of parents in regional Victoria, there are clubs, campaigns and even laws dedicated to a smartphone-free life.

But in 2025, how do you pull it off? And is it actually worth it?

This episode originally aired on Brain Rot, a series of the ABC podcast Science Friction. Sana will be back with all-new episodes of All in the Mind from Sunday 19 October.

Guests:

Stan Awtrey

Sportswriter, The Atlanta Journal-Constitution

Vincent Paul-Petit

Mayor, Seine-Port, France

Lisa Given

Professor of Information Sciences, RMIT University

Steph Challis

Founder, The Phone Pledge

Jameson Butler

Co-Founder, The Luddite Club

Credits:

• Presenter: Ange Lavoipierre
• Producer: Fiona Pepper
• Senior Producer: James Bullen
• Sound Engineer: Ross Richardson

Thanks to Sam Goerling for the assistance with French translation.

This story was made on the lands of the Gadigal and Menang Noongar peoples.

More Information:

The Luddite Club

Parents unite to ban teens from smartphones amid social media minimum age review

You can catch up on more episodes of the All in the Mind podcast with journalist and presenter Sana Qadar, exploring the psychology of topics like stress, memory, communication and relationships on the ABC Listen app (Australia) or wherever you get your podcasts.

If you'd like to access the transcript for this episode, head to its original webpage.

Plenty of people will say they are addicted to the internet. But how well-recognised, scientifically, is an addiction … to your screen?

In episode four of Brain Rot, we dig into how behavioural addictions work.

And we hear from self-described internet addicts about the treatment programs helping them manage their relationship with technology.

This episode originally aired on Brain Rot, a series of the ABC podcast Science Friction. Sana will be back with all-new episodes of All in the Mind in mid-October.

Guests:

Jillian and Kate

Internet and Technology Addiction Anonymous members

Hilarie Cash

Psychologist and Co-Founder, reSTART

Anna Lembke

Professor of Psychiatry and Addiction Medicine, Stanford University School of Medicine

Anastasia Hronis

Clinical Psychologist; Author, The Dopamine Brain

Dar Meshi

Associate Professor, Michigan State University

Credits:

• Presenter: Ange Lavoipierre
• Producer: Fiona Pepper
• Senior Producer: James Bullen
• Sound Engineer: Tim Symonds

This story was made on the lands of the Gadigal and Menang Noongar peoples.

More Information:

Changes and correlates of screen time in adults and children during the COVID-19 pandemic: A systematic review and meta analysis — eClinical Medicine, 2022.

Internet-addicted South Korean children sent to digital detox boot camp.

The Dopamine Brain — Anastasia Hronis.

Everyone is on their phones. But are we actually addicted? The Guardian, 2024.

Internet and Technology Addicts Anonymous.

Dopamine Nation — Anna Lembke.

Inside the rehab saving young men from their internet addiction — The Guardian, 2017

Other episodes related to focus and our relationship with smart phones:

When doom scrolling leads to actual harm

Should you do a 'dopamine detox'?

Sick of scrolling? Digital minimalism could help

Fighting for focus in the age of distraction

You can catch up on more episodes of the All in the Mind podcast with journalist and presenter Sana Qadar, exploring the psychology of topics like stress, memory, communication and relationships on the ABC Listen app (Australia) or wherever you get your podcasts.

If you'd like to access the transcript for this episode, head to its original webpage.

We're trusting tech with more tasks than ever — including the ones our brains once did.

We're Googling things we used to know, taking screenshots of things we'll instantly forget, and hoarding all kinds of data we'll never check again.

On this episode of Brain Rot: is tech giving your brain a holiday, or putting it out of a job?

You'll also meet a guy who's turned the tables, by using AI to help recover his lost memories.

This episode originally aired on Brain Rot, a series of the ABC podcast Science Friction. Sana will be back with all-new episodes of All in the Mind in mid-October.

Guests:

Dr Julia Soares

Assistant Professor, Mississipi State University

Morris Villaroel

Academic, Spain; Lifelogger

Max

Credits:

• Presenter: Ange Lavoipierre
• Producer: Fiona Pepper
• Senior Producer: James Bullen
• Sound Engineer: Tim Symonds

This story was made on the lands of the Gadigal and Menang Noongar peoples.

More Information:

Memory in the Digital Age — Oxford Handbook of Human Memory, 2024.

Lifelog Retrieval from Daily Digital Data: Narrative Review — JMIR mHealth and uHealth, 2022.

People mistake the internet's knowledge for their own — PNAS, 2021.

Data Selves: More-Than-Human Perspectives — Deborah Lupton, 2019.

One man's 10-year experiment to record every moment — BBC, 2019.

The case for using your brain — even if AI can think for you — Vox, 2025.

You can catch up on more episodes of the All in the Mind podcast with journalist and presenter Sana Qadar, exploring the psychology of topics like stress, memory, communication and relationships on the ABC Listen app (Australia) or wherever you get your podcasts.

If you'd like to access the transcript for this episode, head to its original webpage.

Whether it’s social media, the omnipresent smartphone or AI companions, in recent decades the way we relate to each other has been completely up-ended.

In episode two of Brain Rot, we explore the potential implications that tech poses to human relationships.

Worldwide estimates suggest there are around one billion users of AI companions — people using software or applications designed to simulate human-like interactions through text and voice.

So if the uptake of these AI companions is as rapid as is being reported, what are the ramifications? And could AI companions be both a cause and cure for loneliness? 

This episode originally aired on Brain Rot, a series of the ABC podcast Science Friction. Sana will be back with all-new episodes of All in the Mind in mid-October.

Guests:

Kelly

In a relationship with an AI companion, Christian

Bethanie Drake-Maples

Doctoral Candidate, Research Fellow, Stanford Institute for Human-Centred Artificial Intelligence

Nicholas Epley

Professor of Behavioural Science, University of Chicago Booth School of Business

Nicholas Carr

Author and journalist

Credits:

• Presenter: Ange Lavoipierre
• Producer: Fiona Pepper
• Senior Producer: James Bullen
• Sound Engineer: Tim Symonds

This story was made on the lands of the Gadigal and Menang Noongar peoples.

More Information:

Loneliness and suicide mitigation for students using GPT3-enabled chatbots — npj Mental Health Research, 2024.

Hello, stranger? Pleasant conversations are preceded by concerns about starting one — Journal of Experimental Psychology: General, 2022.

Talking with strangers is surprisingly informative — PNAS, 2022.

Superbloom: How Technologies of Connection Tear Us Apart — Nicholas Carr, 2025.

You can catch up on more episodes of the All in the Mind podcast with journalist and presenter Sana Qadar, exploring the psychology of topics like stress, memory, communication and relationships on the ABC Listen app (Australia) or wherever you get your podcasts.

If you'd like to access the transcript for this episode, head to its original webpage.

Everyone seems to have a hunch that their phone is destroying their attention span, but is there any science to back it up?

In episode one of Brain Rot, we’re doing our best to focus on the topic of attention for a full 25 minutes — and find out what's actually happening in your brain every time your phone buzzes or dings.

Is brain rot a real thing? Or just another moral panic?

And how do you know when your own screen use has gone too far?

This episode originally aired on Brain Rot, a series of the ABC podcast Science Friction. Sana will be back with all-new episodes of All in the Mind in mid-October.

Guests:

Anna Seirian

CEO, Internet People

Dr Mark Williams

Professor, Macquarie University; Cognitive neuroscientist

Michoel Moshel

Clinical Neuropsychologist Registrar; Phd Candidate, Macquarie University

Professor Marion Thain

Professor of Culture and Technology, University of Edinburgh; Director, Edinburgh Futures Institute

Credits:

• Presenter: Ange Lavoipierre
• Producer: Fiona Pepper
• Senior Producer: James Bullen
• Sound Engineer: Brendan O'Neill

More information:

Neuropsychological Deficits in Disordered Screen Use Behaviours: A Systematic Review and Meta‑Analysis - Neuropsychology Review, 2024.

Do we have your attention? How people focus and live in the modern information environment - King's College London, 2022.

Internet addiction-induced brain structure and function alterations: a systematic review and meta-analysis of voxel-based morphometry and resting-state functional connectivity studies - Brain Imaging and Behavior, 2023.

You can catch up on more episodes of the All in the Mind podcast with journalist and presenter Sana Qadar, exploring the psychology of topics like stress, memory, communication and relationships on the ABC Listen app (Australia) or wherever you get your podcasts.

If you'd like to access the transcript for this episode, head to its original webpage.

Revenge feels sweet... At least for a moment. James Kimmel Jr knows that better than most.

As a lawyer, he made a career out of helping clients get payback. But the drive for revenge started to eat away at him, threatening to destroy his work life and relationships.

Coming back from the brink, he started to wonder — why are we drawn to payback? What impacts does it have on the brain? And can revenge ever be addictive?

In this episode, we explore some of the neuroscience of revenge: what's going on in the brain when we seek it out, the rewards we get from it, the damage it causes and how to stop it. Plus, are we hardwired for forgiveness?

Just a heads up, there is a brief mention of animal cruelty in the intro of this episode, so please take care while listening.

You can catch up on more episodes of the All in the Mind podcast with journalist and presenter Sana Qadar, exploring the psychology of topics like stress, memory, communication and relationships on the ABC Listen app (Australia) or wherever you get your podcasts.

Guest:

James Kimmel, Jr., JDAssistant Clinical Professor, PsychiatryYale School of MedicineAuthor, The Science of Revenge

Credits:

• Presenter/producer: Sana Qadar
• Senior producer: James Bullen
• Producer: Rose Kerr
• Sound engineer: Simon Branthwaite

Thanks to freesound.org users craigsmith, Scott_Snailham and EwanPenman11. 

More information:

The neural basis of altruistic punishment

The sunny side of fairness: preference for fairness activates reward circuitry (and disregarding unfairness activates self-control circuitry)

The neural basis of economic decision-making in the Ultimatum Game

"An eye for an eye"? Neural correlates of retribution and forgiveness

Five years of unpaid taxes. Homework handed in on the last day of an extension. Some people are champion procrastinators.

Why? And what does task paralysis (sometimes called ADHD paralysis) have to do with it?

Today: the personality traits that make you more prone to procrastination, the types of tasks we're most likely to put off, and what to do if your to-do list sends you into fight-or-flight mode.

You can catch up on more episodes of the All in the Mind podcast with journalist and presenter Sana Qadar, exploring the psychology of topics like stress, memory, communication and relationships on the ABC Listen app (Australia) or wherever you get your podcasts.

Guests:

EvaHigh school student

Dr Catherine HoulihanClinical psychologistSenior lecturer in clinical psychologyDirector of the UniSC Psychology ClinicUniversity of the Sunshine Coast

Credits:

• Presenter/producer: Sana Qadar
• Producer: Rose Kerr
• Senior producer: James Bullen
• Sound engineer: Simon Branthwaite

More information:

The skills supercommunicators use, which you can learn too

Outwardly impressive, losing it on the inside? The cognitive distortions of a high achiever

Why do I procrastinate? And can I do anything about it?

Fighting for focus in the age of distraction

If you opened up a magazine in the 2000s, you'd likely be met by countless images of celebrities on their worst days. And the conversation accompanying those images? Pretty toxic.

We've come a long way in how we talk about mental health since then, but how did we get here? What changed?

Today, we reflect on the cruelty of tabloid culture and how the internet shifted the narrative about mental health.

If you want to hear more about our relationship with celebrities, check out our episode Moog became a Youtube megastar — and it messed with his mental health.

Guests:

Jo PiazzaAuthor and host of Under the Influence

Sophie GilbertStaff writer for The AtlanticAuthor of Girl on Girl: How Pop Culture Turned a Generation of Women Against Themselves

Dr Jessica FordLecturer in MediaUniversity of Adelaide

Professor Nick HaslamUniversity of Melbourne

Clinical Professor Jonathan ShedlerDepartment of Psychiatry and Behavioural SciencesUniversity of California

Hadley MearesHollywood historian

Matthew SuarezAuthor of Paparazzi Daze: Celebrity Encounters

David KampContributing EditorVanity Fair Magazine

Credits:

• Presenter/producer: Sana Qadar
• Reporter/producer: Jennifer Leake
• Producer: Rose Kerr
• Senior producer: James Bullen
• Sound engineer: Simon Branthwaite

You can catch up on more episodes of the All in the Mind podcast with journalist and presenter Sana Qadar, exploring the psychology of topics like stress, memory, communication and relationships on the ABC Listen app (Australia) or wherever you get your podcasts.

When was the last time you decluttered? Was it a satisfying process, or did it fill you with dread?

Where you sit on the clutter spectrum differs person to person, so today, we investigate if decluttering is worth the hype. 

Why can it be so hard for some people? Could there be a way to reduce clutter before it builds up?

And what's the relationship between hoarding disorder and clutter? 

If you want to hear more about our relationship with objects, check out Why do we love collecting?

Guests:

Professor Melissa NorbergPsychologistMacquarie University

Professor Jessica GrishamPsychologistUniversity of New South Wales

Dr Seung Hwan (Mark) LeeProfessor and Associate Dean of Engagement & InclusionTed Rogers School of Management at Toronto Metropolitan University

Dr Omar FaresAssistant Professor in the Faculty of BusinessUniversity of New Brunswick

Credits:

• Presenter/producer: Sana Qadar
• Reporter/producer: Rose Kerr
• Senior producer: James Bullen
• Sound engineer: Simon Branthwaite

You can catch up on more episodes of the All in the Mind podcast with journalist and presenter Sana Qadar, exploring the psychology of topics like stress, memory, communication and relationships on the ABC Listen app (Australia) or wherever you get your podcasts.

More information:

Understanding 'underconsumption core': How a new trend is challenging consumer culture

Breaking up with belongings: a pilot randomized controlled trial of an unguided web-based program to reduce overconsumption

Nudging society toward more adaptive approaches to material possessions: Harnessing implicit approaches to reduce overconsumption and excessive saving

Try This: declutter your work from home space