Tourism is surging in many places around the world—swarmed national parks, throngs of visitors amassing in churches and museums, and sidewalk cafes overburdened with diners. In this episode, we’d like to offer a less crowded way to be a tourist: consider going underground. 

This summer is a Jubilee Year in Rome, so the city will be more packed than ever. But below the traffic jams and bustle of pedestrians in the streets of Rome lie its subterranean sites, which include ancient aqueducts, pagan shrines and even apartment complexes built centuries ago. While tourists pound the pavement visiting the iconic landmarks aboveground, explorers can search beneath the streets of the Eternal City for a different perspective on ancient—and modern—Roman life. 

Host Ari Daniel speaks with Smithsonian contributing writer Tony Perrottet, who wrote recently about Rome’s underworld—the city lurking beneath the city. And he offers numerous tips to listeners who want to explore these fascinating and tranquil sites for themselves.

To subscribe to “There’s More to That,” and to listen to past episodes about the use of Italian Renaissance paintings to improve the farming of tomorrow, a special baseball field at a Japanese internment camp and the use of artificial intelligence to make ancient scrolls readable again, find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts.

“There’s More to That” is a production of Smithsonian magazine and PRX Productions. 

From the magazine, our team is Ari Daniel, Debra Rosenberg and Brian Wolly. From PRX, our team is Jessica Miller, Genevieve Sponsler, Adriana Rosas Rivera, Sandra Lopez Monsalve and Edwin Ochoa. The executive producer of PRX Productions is Jocelyn Gonzales.

Fact-checking by Stephanie Abramson. Our music is from APM Music.

Episode artwork by Emily Lankiewicz. Photos by Tim Bieber via Getty Images and public domain.