The durian, a spiky fruit that grows across Southeast Asia, has a polarizing reputation for its pungent odor and strong taste. There are the durian haters — people who experience waves of revulsion at the mere thought of consuming one.

And then there are the superfans who sing its praises and travel the world to experience the rare and complex bliss it inspires on the palate. Those who relish this fruit say there’s a lot to love. It can be eaten raw (shortly after falling from the tree) or prepared as the hero of both sweet and savory dishes.

In this episode, host Ari Daniel travels with his children to a San Francisco restaurant to interview its chef and owner, Azalina Eusope, about her love of durian and the cuisine it inspires. And he speaks with Smithsonian contributing writer Tom Downey about his trip to Malaysia to experience the euphoria of fresh durian firsthand.

To subscribe to “There’s More to That,” and to listen to past episodes about using fruit depicted in Renaissance paintings to rescue modern agriculture, an award-winning restaurant in New Orleans that showcases Senegalese cuisine, and a prehistoric pit that entombed animals for millennia, find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts.

“There’s More to That” is a production of Smithsonian magazine and PRX Productions. 

From the magazine, our team is Ari Daniel, Debra Rosenberg and Brian Wolly. From PRX, our team is Jessica Miller, Genevieve Sponsler, Adriana Rosas Rivera, Sandra Lopez Monsalve and Edwin Ochoa. The executive producer of PRX Productions is Jocelyn Gonzales.

Fact-checking by Stephanie Abramson. Our music is from APM Music.

Episode artwork by Emily Lankiewicz. Photos courtesy of Dr. Susumu Tomiya and public domain.

Natural Trap Cave is a pit in northern Wyoming into which countless animals have fallen and met their untimely demise since the Pleistocene. Paleontologists today find the cave a treasure trove — a stunning record of the species that have long roamed the area. The mammalian fossils left behind shed light on the climate, food sources and migration patterns of these species from earlier eras.

Careful excavation work over the years that has involved sifting for bones, extracting ancient DNA, and looking for prehistoric pollen has revealed not just the plants and animals that once populated this part of the world, but also the ecosystems and climates that governed it. It also has required some rather advanced rappelling skills.

In this episode, host Ari Daniel speaks with vertebrate paleontologist Julie Meachen and Smithsonian contributing writer Michael Ray Taylor about what rappelling into Natural Trap Cave reveals about its contents and what it can tell us about Earth’s past.

To subscribe to "There’s More to That," and to listen to past episodes about the sex lives of dinosaurs, the numerous archaeological treasures that await beneath the city of Rome, and the science of roadkill, find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts.

“There’s More to That” is a production of Smithsonian magazine and PRX Productions. 

From the magazine, our team is Ari Daniel, Debra Rosenberg and Brian Wolly. From PRX, our team is Jessica Miller, Genevieve Sponsler, Adriana Rosas Rivera, Sandra Lopez Monsalve and Edwin Ochoa. The executive producer of PRX Productions is Jocelyn Gonzales.

Fact-checking by Stephanie Abramson. Our music is from APM Music.

Episode artwork by Emily Lankiewicz. Photos courtesy of Dr. Susumu Tomiya and public domain.

In the fall of 1944, Japanese fighters opened fire on a wave of U.S. planes near Palau, including a bomber carrying pilot Jay Ross Manown Jr., gunner Anthony Di Petta and navigator Wilbur Mitts. Their aircraft crashed into the sea, and the three men were “presumed dead.” They were assigned by the Navy, like so many others, to a purgatorial category—not likely to be alive, but not declared dead, either.

Decades later, a group known as Project Recover worked relentlessly to track down the wreckage and then exhume the bones whose DNA could be tested. They ultimately identified the remains of all three crewmembers, allowing them to be laid to rest and giving a sense of closure to their families.

Host Ari Daniel speaks with Stephen Mihm, who wrote about this effort for Smithsonian magazine. And he interviews Rebecca Sheets, Manown’s niece, about what her uncle’s recovery meant for her and her family.

To subscribe to “There’s More to That,” and to listen to past episodes about the untold stories of the American Revolution, baseball at a Japanese internment camp and a recently solved mystery surrounding the burial of President John F. Kennedy, find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts.

“There’s More to That” is a production of Smithsonian magazine and PRX Productions. 

From the magazine, our team is Ari Daniel, Debra Rosenberg and Brian Wolly. From PRX, our team is Jessica Miller, Genevieve Sponsler, Adriana Rosas Rivera, Sandra Lopez Monsalve and Edwin Ochoa. The executive producer of PRX Productions is Jocelyn Gonzales.

Fact-checking by Stephanie Abramson. Our music is from APM Music.

Episode artwork by Emily Lankiewicz. Photo courtesy of the Mitts and Di Petta Families. Images via Ike Skelton Combined Arms Research Library and public domain.

Tourism is surging in many places around the world—swarmed national parks, throngs of visitors amassing in churches and museums, and sidewalk cafes overburdened with diners. In this episode, we’d like to offer a less crowded way to be a tourist: consider going underground. 

This summer is a Jubilee Year in Rome, so the city will be more packed than ever. But below the traffic jams and bustle of pedestrians in the streets of Rome lie its subterranean sites, which include ancient aqueducts, pagan shrines and even apartment complexes built centuries ago. While tourists pound the pavement visiting the iconic landmarks aboveground, explorers can search beneath the streets of the Eternal City for a different perspective on ancient—and modern—Roman life. 

Host Ari Daniel speaks with Smithsonian contributing writer Tony Perrottet, who wrote recently about Rome’s underworld—the city lurking beneath the city. And he offers numerous tips to listeners who want to explore these fascinating and tranquil sites for themselves.

To subscribe to “There’s More to That,” and to listen to past episodes about the use of Italian Renaissance paintings to improve the farming of tomorrow, a special baseball field at a Japanese internment camp and the use of artificial intelligence to make ancient scrolls readable again, find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts.

“There’s More to That” is a production of Smithsonian magazine and PRX Productions. 

From the magazine, our team is Ari Daniel, Debra Rosenberg and Brian Wolly. From PRX, our team is Jessica Miller, Genevieve Sponsler, Adriana Rosas Rivera, Sandra Lopez Monsalve and Edwin Ochoa. The executive producer of PRX Productions is Jocelyn Gonzales.

Fact-checking by Stephanie Abramson. Our music is from APM Music.

Episode artwork by Emily Lankiewicz. Photos by Tim Bieber via Getty Images and public domain.

After multiple wildfires ripped through greater Los Angeles earlier this year, Californians were left to rebuild communities and grapple with the loss of life, nature and property. Thousands of homes were destroyed, and as many as 180,000 residents were under evacuation orders until the flames could be controlled. Unfortunately, this seems to be the new order in California; officials are already working to prepare for the next fire season.

In this episode, host Ari Daniel speaks with photographer Ivan Kashinsky, who witnessed and documented the devastation of the Palisades Fire up close, even as he tried to rescue his cats and valuables from his family home in Topanga Canyon. And we hear from writer and wildlife biologist Anton Sorokin, who chronicled the animals that escaped, fled and perished due to the fiery forces that are increasingly shaping our world.

To subscribe to “There’s More to That,” and to listen to past episodes about a group of people dedicated to saving native bees, the sex lives of dinosaurs and the story of Pablo Escobar’s hippos, find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts.

“There’s More to That” is a production of Smithsonian magazine and PRX Productions. 

From the magazine, our team is Ari Daniel, Debra Rosenberg and Brian Wolly. From PRX, our team is Jessica Miller, Genevieve Sponsler, Adriana Rosas Rivera, Sandra Lopez Monsalve and Edwin Ochoa. The executive producer of PRX Productions is Jocelyn Gonzales.

Fact-checking by Stephanie Abramson. Our music is from APM Music.

Episode artwork by Emily Lankiewicz. Photos by Anton Sorokin and public domain.

Two hundred and fifty years ago this month, silversmith Paul Revere took to his horse on a midnight ride to warn American rebels that British troops were approaching. The famous ride and an ensuing battle at Lexington and Concord touched off the American Revolution.

But there are other stories involving the role that enslaved Africans and Southern colonists played in launching and sustaining the rebellion that led to the founding of the United States of America. Host Ari Daniel speaks with Nikki Stewart of Old North Illuminated and Smithsonian writer Andrew Lawler about these lesser-known histories.

Read the original Smithsonian article here.

To subscribe to “There’s More to That,” and to listen to past episodes about a baseball field resurrected in a World War II-era Japanese internment camp, a recently solved mystery surrounding the burial of John F. Kennedy and how artificial intelligence is making ancient scrolls readable again, find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts.

“There’s More to That” is a production of Smithsonian magazine and PRX Productions. 

From the magazine, our team is Ari Daniel, Debra Rosenberg and Brian Wolly. From PRX, our team is Jessica Miller, Genevieve Sponsler, Adriana Rosas Rivera, Sandra Lopez Monsalve and Edwin Ochoa. The executive producer of PRX Productions is Jocelyn Gonzales.

Fact-checking by Stephanie Abramson. Our music is from APM Music.

Episode artwork by Emily Lankiewicz. Photos by Ari Daniel, gregobagel via Getty Images and the Metropolitan Museum of Art under public domain.

Baseball was a way of life in the camps that incarcerated Japanese Americans during World War II. The United States government stripped the Americans who lived in these camps of their liberties, but for those communities, having played the game for generations, baseball brought them closer to each other and, paradoxically, to their country. At Manzanar, one such site at the foot of the Sierra Nevada in California, dozens of baseball and softball teams played regularly.

Decades after the camps closed, and after Japanese Americans had returned to their homes on the West Coast, Manzanar was established as a historic site. Replicas of camp buildings were erected to memorialize what had happened there, but the baseball field was in complete disrepair. Artist and baseball enthusiast Dan Kwong led the herculean restoration effort. Host Ari Daniel talks with Kwong and Smithsonian writer Rachel Ng, who reported on the endeavor. 

Read the original Smithsonian article here.

To subscribe to “There’s More to That,” and to listen to past episodes on a recently solved mystery surrounding the burial of John F. Kennedy, the only battalion during World War II composed entirely of Black women, and everything you wanted to know about sweating and sports, find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts. 

“There’s More to That” is a production of Smithsonian magazine and PRX Productions. 

From the magazine, our team is Ari Daniel, Debra Rosenberg and Brian Wolly. From PRX, our team is Jessica Miller, Genevieve Sponsler, Adriana Rosas Rivera, Sandra Lopez Monsalve and Edwin Ochoa. The executive producer of PRX Productions is Jocelyn Gonzales.

Fact-checking by Stephanie Abramson. Our music is from APM Music.

Episode artwork by Emily Lankiewicz. Photos by Aaron Rapoport and the National Archives under public domain.

Native bees in the United States are dying due to pesticides, disease and habitat loss. These insects play a critical role in nature and on farms, yet we know very little about native bees in part because they’re a challenge to study.

That’s where a legion of bee enthusiasts and amateur experts, called “beeple,” come in. Armed with nets and jars, they fan out across the country to find, document and study native bees, both common and rare. Host Ari Daniel interviews Smithsonian writer Susan Freinkel and self-proclaimed bee enthusiast Michael Veit about the future of bees through the lens of the beeple who care deeply about them.

Read the original Smithsonian article by Susan Freinkel here.

To subscribe to “There’s More to That,” and to listen to past episodes on the tale of what happened to Pablo Escobar’s hippos, the popularity of stories about animal behavior and the sex lives of dinosaurs, find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts.

“There’s More to That” is a production of Smithsonian magazine and PRX Productions. 

From the magazine, our team is Ari Daniel, Debra Rosenberg and Brian Wolly. From PRX, our team is Jessica Miller, Genevieve Sponsler, Adriana Rosas Rivera, Sandra Lopez Monsalve and Edwin Ochoa. The executive producer of PRX Productions is Jocelyn Gonzales.

Fact-checking by Stephanie Abramson.
Episode artwork by Emily Lankiewicz. Images via John F. Kennedy Presidential Library and Museum, Oak Spring Garden Foundation, and public domain.

Before he was a civil rights activist, James Felder was a member of the elite U.S. Honor Guard who helped bury John F. Kennedy at Arlington National Cemetery after his assassination in 1963. In a move that was unrehearsed, after laying the casket to rest, the members of the Honor Guard placed their military hats upon the gravesite in what James Felder called “a final salute to President Kennedy.”

Years later, Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis commissioned a bronze wreath to be made in honor of her husband that incorporated the caps. Once completed, this sculpture disappeared quite suddenly. Half a century later, improbably, it was found due to the help of a couple of sleuths at a private garden in Northern Virginia.

In this episode, we hear from Elinor Crane of the Oak Spring Garden Foundation and James Felder. 

Read the original Smithsonian article by Ellen Wexler here.

To subscribe to “There’s More to That,” and to listen to past episodes on the man behind the nonfiction thriller about Abraham Lincoln's assassination, separating fact from fiction in the life of Sojourner Truth, and the complicated legacy of being the descendant of a Civil War hero, find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts.

“There’s More to That” is a production of Smithsonian magazine and PRX Productions. 

From the magazine, our team is Ari Daniel, Debra Rosenberg and Brian Wolly. From PRX, our team is Jessica Miller, Genevieve Sponsler, Adriana Rosas Rivera, Sandra Lopez Monsalve and Edwin Ochoa. The executive producer of PRX Productions is Jocelyn Gonzales.

Fact-checking by Stephanie Abramson.
Episode artwork by Emily Lankiewicz. Images via John F. Kennedy Presidential Library and Museum, Oak Spring Garden Foundation, and public domain.

Dinosaurs are often thought of as aggressors—giant beasts that dominated our planet for millions of years. But these prehistoric animals almost certainly had a softer side. In the last decade, researchers have gained tantalizing insights into the sex lives and mating habits of these ancient reptiles.

In this episode, Smithsonian contributing writer Riley Black describes new evidence that reveals how and when dinosaurs mated—including ancient behavior recorded in rock, a new theory around dinosaur horns and spikes, and a prehistoric cloaca.

Read Riley's coverage of dinosaurs here and here.

To subscribe to “There’s More to That,” and to listen to past episodes on the sticking power of stories about animal behavior, what happens when the Colorado River goes dry and how asteroid dust might tell us about the origins of life, find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts.

“There’s More to That” is a production of Smithsonian magazine and PRX Productions. 

From the magazine, our team is Ari Daniel, Debra Rosenberg and Brian Wolly. From PRX, our team is Jessica Miller, Genevieve Sponsler, Adriana Rosas Rivera, Sandra Lopez Monsalve and Edwin Ochoa. The executive producer of PRX Productions is Jocelyn Gonzales. 

Fact-checking by Stephanie Abramson.
Episode artwork by Emily Lankiewicz. Images via by Donald E. Hurlbert for Smithsonian Institution (SI-19-2014), James St. John via Flickr under CC BY 2.0, and public domain.