The Kick & Snare Podcast

Making and distributing music has never been easier.

Getting someone to actually listen is another story. In this episode of the Kick & Snare Podcast, Michael Nevins talks with Dorian Perron, co-founder of Groover, about what happens when an enormous and growing supply of music collides with a finite amount of human attention.

Dorian has a particularly useful vantage point. Groover connects independent artists with playlist curators, media, radio, labels, managers and other music professionals, giving him a close look at how artists are trying to get heard today.

Michael and Dorian discuss how music discovery has changed as influence has moved from a relatively small number of radio stations, publications and labels toward a much larger network of curators, creators, playlists, social platforms and algorithms. They also get into the uneasy relationship artists can have with social media.

Does an artist now need to be a content creator too? Can you optimize the first three seconds of a video and still be authentic? And how do human recommendations ultimately influence what algorithms decide to amplify?

Then there’s AI. If the amount of music being released already exceeds anyone’s ability to hear it, what happens as generative AI adds even more? Dorian offers a nuanced view of AI as both a creative tool and a source of an entirely new kind of oversupply.

The conversation ends with a different question: Does every artist need to “break through” at all? Or is it time for musicians to define success on their own terms?

ABOUT DORIAN PERRON: Dorian Perron is co-founder of Groover, a platform connecting independent artists with music curators and industry professionals.

Learn more about Groover: https://groover.co/

Topics include:

• The battle for attention in music

• Why distribution is no longer the primary barrier

• Social media, authenticity, and artist development

• Human curators vs. algorithmic recommendations

• How Spotify discovery works

• Playlists and independent curators

• AI-generated music and creative tools

• The growing oversupply of music

• The continuing role of labels

• Building a sustainable career without becoming a superstar

• Defining success as an artist

How should marketers actually use AI, and when should they choose not to?

Marketing strategist and AI Marketers Guild founder David Berkowitz joins Michael Nevins on the Kick & Snare Podcast to explore the rapidly changing relationship between artificial intelligence, marketing, creativity, and human judgment.

They discuss the AI skills marketers need, practical ways to experiment with generative AI, knowledge management and information retrieval, AI-assisted corporate communications, authenticity, vibe coding, and how AI is changing traditional marketing workflows.

David explains why marketers shouldn’t wait until they’ve mastered AI to start experimenting. Instead, he suggests beginning with low-risk projects where failure doesn’t matter: prototype an idea, create something outside your expertise, experiment with vibe coding, or use AI to solve a problem you previously couldn’t solve. But adoption raises another question: just because AI can perform a task, should we hand it over?

Michael and David explore the line between using AI to expand human capabilities and becoming overly dependent on it—particularly when communication, creativity, learning, judgment, and authentic human interaction are involved.

Topics include:

Learn more about / Join AI Marketers Guild: https://aimarketersguild.com/ See what the Guild is actually building: https://aimarketersguild.org/

https://www.kickandsnare.llc/

Jim Allen has spent decades writing about music for publications including Rolling Stone, Billboard, NPR Music, Mojo, Bandcamp Daily, and many others.

He's also spent decades making music.

In this episode of the Kick & Snare Podcast, Michael Nevins sits down with Jim to explore the intersection of music journalism and songwriting. They discuss how being a journalist affects his creative process and how being a songwriter/musician affects his journalism. They also discuss the making of Jim's new album, Maybe Things Will Be All Right, and why he still believes in CDs while refusing to release music on Spotify.

Along the way, they dive into power pop, roots rock, songwriting during the pandemic, legendary collaborators, independent music culture, and creating art even when commercial success isn't the goal.

Listen to Jim Allen's music: jimallen.bandcamp.com

00:00:00 - Intro

00:00:40 - Meet Jim Allen: Journalist and Musician

00:04:03 - Living Two Creative Lives

00:05:27 - Do Artists Know You’re a Musician Too?

00:06:44 - As a Musician, Do You Listen Differently?

00:09:51 - Does the Critic Inside Your Head Affect Your Songs?

00:11:14 - Reviewing Friends and Musical Ethics

00:12:17 - What It Feels Like to Be Reviewed

00:15:21 - Journalist vs Critic: Why the Difference Matters

00:21:21 - Tom Petty, Full Moon Fever, and Bad Predictions

00:23:02 - Introducing the New Album

00:26:09 - Pandemic Songwriting and the Weekly Songwriters Group

00:29:48 - The Core Band and Trusted Collaborators

00:30:43 - Recording the Album Live in the Studio

00:35:30 - Suzanne Vega, Synthesizers, and Musical Heroes

00:39:30 - Special Guests on the Record

00:44:06 - Peter Holsapple and the Title Track

00:46:18 - Psychedelia, Electronics, and Dream Collaborations

00:50:29 - The Story Behind The Title Track: “Maybe Things Will Be All Right”

00:55:48 - Maybe Things Will Be Alright - Lyric Video

00:58:42 - Song Spotlight: “Underground”

01:01:31 - The Reality of Releasing Independent Music Today

01:03:48 - Why It’s Harder Than Ever to Get Attention

01:06:20 - Questions Michael Didn’t Ask

01:07:24 - Why Jim Refuses Spotify

01:08:42 - Album Release Show and Live Dates

01:10:35 - Where to Find Jim Allen’s Music

01:11:06 - Closing Thoughts

Subscribe for more conversations exploring the intersection of creativity, technology, business, and music. #KickAndSnare #JimAllen #Songwriting #MusicJournalism #IndependentMusic #PowerPop #RootsRock #Bandcamp #MusicPodcast #MichaelNevins #Kick&Snare #Peterholsapple

In this episode, Molly Neuman joins Michael Nevins to share how CD Baby has changed (and what’s coming next), why the artist “DIY” journey is way more complex than people think, and how platforms earn trust when the experience is intuitive and fair. They also get into the pressure artists feel to do everything (music, content, business), and why it’s worth being honest about what success can look like.

Along the way: Riot Grrrl, music scenes, and community-building; drumming as both craft and metaphor (multiple limbs / multiple priorities); and the mindset Molly uses to navigate a long, evolving career in music and tech.

00:00 - Kick & Snare intro

00:18 - Meet Molly Neuman (CD Baby President)

02:43 - Squiggly careers

04:53 - What CD Baby does today (and why “DIY” is more complex than it sounds)

06:59 - Molly’s Downtown journey: Songtrust → CMO → CD Baby

08:58 - Repositioning CD Baby: infrastructure, operations, and competing in a crowded market

11:24 - “By artists, for artists” + modern artist needs (global scale, new expectations)

12:38 - UX is the brand: why product experience beats logos

14:05 - Labels as filters: identity, taste, and trust (Discord, scenes, discovery)

18:26 - Labels as filters: identity, taste, and trust (Discord, scenes, discovery)

22:40 - Scenes, movements, and Riot Grrrl: how it grew (and what it wasn’t)

37:15 - Representation and visibility: why it changes people’s lives

42:12 - Career growth via new environments (Kickstarter lessons, scaling Songtrust)

44:36 - Untapped opportunity: supporting more women creators

45:51 - Getting her start as a drummer: learning by watching the kick drum

52:28 - Getting better in your 50s

53:51 - Drumming and leadership: multitasking, anticipation, staying in time

55:36 - Artist tools: being real about what artists need now

58:05 - What Molly’s listening to right now + closing

Cliff Fluet (partner at Louis Silkin, joint head of Media & Entertainment; Chair of Music Technology UK; founder of Eleven Advisory) joins Michael Nevins to unpack how music, tech, and IP are colliding in the age of AI.

We cover: why MusicTechnology UK focuses on funding + ecosystem building, why Cliff believes AI is a paradigm shift on the scale of electricity, and his core argument: “Copyright isn’t the problem. Licensing is the answer.”

Plus: the case for focusing on outputs vs inputs, the music industry’s data problem, and practical advice for founders and people breaking into music tech.

00:00 - Start

00:23 - Intro: Cliff Fluet (Louis Silkin, MusicTech UK, Eleven Advisory)

01:54 - From hi-fi salesman to Warner Music: Cliff’s origin story

04:00 - Warner Music in the CD boom → internet flips the industry

04:47 - New media at Warner: early streaming + disruption

05:51 - The jump to radio: “I’ve got to go on the other side and get some rights from you.”

06:57 - Private practice: advising mobile + early streaming (Pandora → DSPs)

07:58 - Why “legal + strategic” (and founding Eleven Advisory)

09:22 - Building MusicTech UK: the what and the why

12:56 - The #1 problem for music tech startups

16:03 - Community + “space & place”: H.O.M.E. + Tileyard Studios ecosystems

19:48 - Does the UK get enough credit for music innovation?

23:58 - AI as a revolution (not an evolution)

33:47 - AI training data + copyright: can we “unscramble the egg”?

34:23 - Key thesis: “Licensing is the answer” (outputs vs inputs)

38:13 - Flying the plane while building it: contracting in uncertainty

44:13 - The music industry’s biggest blind spot: data

48:16 - Disruption vs curiosity: what founders get wrong

51:56 - Career advice: curiosity wins

54:25 - What Cliff is listening to now

56:23 - Cool tech: Bria & Uhmbrella

57:07 - Closing: “help write music’s next verse.”

Michael Nevins welcomes guest Alan Chappell, President of Chappell and Associates, ad tech privacy expert, and multifaceted musician. Alan shares insights into balancing a demanding legal career with his passion for music, discussing his songwriting process, the impact of AI on the creative industry, and experiences working with renowned producers like Jimmy Einer and Jerry Harrison. The conversation explores the evolution of music technology, incorporating personal anecdotes about Alan's musical journey and his perspectives on the integration of creativity and business. Alan also offers advice for aspiring creatives, emphasizing the importance of embracing chaos in the creative process.

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More about Alan and his music: https://thisischapell.com/

And More about Chappell & Associates: https://thisischapell.com/chapellassociates/

In this episode of The Kick & Snare Podcast, host Michael Nevins talks with Richard James Burgess, President & CEO of A2IM (American Association of Independent Music). They explore what defines “independent,” how A2IM supports its member labels, the challenges of streaming payouts, the battle for fair compensation from platforms like TikTok, and what’s next for music and AI. Richard also shares stories and insights from his varied music career as a drummer, signed artist, producer, artist manager, label exec, and his current role at A2IM. 

Fun facts: Richard coined the term “EDM” (Electronic Dance Music), produced Spandau Ballet, and was an innovator and early adopter in music tech, He contributed to the development of the the first Simmons electronic drum kits and championed the The Fairlight CMI, a ground breaking digital synthesizer, music sampler, and digital audio workstation, This episode is an essential listen for anyone passionate about independent music, digital rights, music tech, and innovation in the music industry.

🌐 Learn more about A2IM: https://a2im.org/

00:00 - Intro: Meet Richard Burgess

🎙️ In this episode of The Kick and Snare Podcast, Michael Nevins speaks with Chantal Epp, founder and CEO of ClicknClear, a music rights tech company solving licensing issues for choreographed sports like cheerleading, dance, and gymnastics.

Chantal shares her journey from music licensing at a Peter Gabriel startup to becoming a two-time world champion cheerleader and creating a solution to a widespread problem in the sports and performing arts world.

We dive into:

🔔 Subscribe for more conversations at the intersection of music, technology, and business.

👉 For more on Click n Clear: https://www.clicknclear.com

00:00 - Introduction to Chantal Epp & ClicknClear

#MusicTech #ChantalEpp #ClicknClear #MusicLicensing #Cheerleading #AdaptiveSports #MusicTechnologyUK #KickAndSnarePodcast #FounderStories

In this episode of the Kick & Snare podcast, Michael interviews Katie Debrah, founder of Halo and Echo, a creative advertising consultancy for music, culture, and platforms. Katie shares her journey from YouTuber to marketing professional, recounting her years at Google in product and marketing, as well as her transition to becoming an independent consultant. She discusses her new venture, the HypeMuse app, which is designed to help independent artists focus more on their music than on self-promotion. Katie also discusses her involvement with Music Technology UK and the challenges currently facing music tech startups. Tune in to explore Katie's insights on the evolving relationship between tech and the music industry, her personal experiences, and her exciting new projects.

#AIinMusic #MusicProduction #HypeMuse #MusicTechnology #google

🌐 Learn more about Katie Debrah and Halo And Echo: https://www.katiedebrah.com

00:00 - Introduction to Kick & Snare Podcast

00:18 - Meet Katie Debrah: Founder of Halo and Echo

00:43 - Katie’s Journey in Marketing and Tech

01:24 - Transition to Entrepreneurship and developing HypeMuse

01:49 - Challenges and Opportunities for Independent Artists

02:33 - Katie’s Experience at Google

04:15 - The Decision to Go Independent

08:31 - Developing Marketing Tech for Artists: More about HypeMuse

21:07 - The Role of Music Tech UK

25:46 - Challenges in Music and Tech Startups

32:30 - Conclusion and Final Thoughts

🎧 In this episode of The Kick & Snare Podcast, host Michael Nevins sits down with David Ronan, founder and CEO of RoEx, to explore how AI is reshaping music production. RoEx is building powerful, intuitive tools that make high-quality music creation faster, easier, and more accessible, especially for emerging artists and bedroom producers.

We dig into the mission behind RoEx, how user feedback drives smarter design, and what makes their approach to AI in audio production unique. David also shares how Music Technology UK and Innovate UK are helping UK-based startups like his tackle challenges in visibility, funding, and industry trust.

🚀 Highlights include:

Whether you're a producer, tech enthusiast, or curious about the future of music creation, this conversation delivers.

#AIinMusic #MusicProduction #RoEx #MusicTechnology #AudioInnovation

#kickandsnare