The Kiln

If you’ve been listening, you might have picked up on the fact that we have issues with the state of the professional culture among therapists.

Today, we’re going to get into it explicitly.

Because one of our overarching goals at The Kiln is to contribute to creating a healthier professional culture for everyone in our field, from students to supervisors. Pushing back against the prevailing culture isn’t easy, and none of us are doing this work perfectly.

But if we can name what’s wrong, we can use it to envision a culture that is healthier, more prosocial, and more productive for all of us.

Listen to the full episode to hear:

• How our problems with professional disagreement and conflict reinforce silos and stifle curiosity
• How over-policing each other over minor issues can actually contribute to bad therapy–from unsatisfied clients to serious boundary violations
• How professional culture and societal expectations make therapists so willing to throw each other under the bus
• Why investing in real community is the antidote for our current professional culture

Learn more about The Kiln:

• Website

Learn more about Dr. Kae Hixson:

• Website

Learn more about Riva Stoudt:

• Into the Woods Counseling
• Instagram

Resources:

• Season 1 Ep 12: Subsequent Therapist Syndrome with Dr. Ofer Zur

A lot of the therapists we’ve trained have asked for resources for their clients, to help them get a better grasp of our modality,  Mentalization-Based Narrative Exposure Therapy for Complex Interpersonal Trauma (MBNET).

So today, we’re going to do our best to translate that into more accessible language so that clients can get a behind-the-scenes view of the rationale behind the modality and what it looks like in practice.

Listen to the full episode to hear:

• What makes exposure-based trauma processing different from other methods
• How exposure symptoms related to traumatic memories and addresses trauma-related beliefs
• What complex interpersonal trauma is and why we developed a modality specifically for treating it
• How humans constantly mind map each other, and how that impacts interpersonal trauma
• How MBNET addresses interpersonal trauma that is subtle, but just as damaging
• How MBNET provides a structured, but still flexible process that will be tailored to each individual
• What to expect as you work through the MBNET process with your therapist

Learn more about The Kiln:

• Website

Learn more about Dr. Kae Hixson:

• Website

Learn more about Riva Stoudt:

• Into the Woods Counseling
• Instagram

Resources:

• The impact of fear activation and anger on the efficacy of exposure treatment for posttraumatic stress disorder, Edna B. Foa, David S. Riggs, Elise D. Massie, Matthew Yarczower
• Brain Talk: How Mind Mapping Brain Science Can Change Your Life & Everyone In It, David Schnarch

Today, we’re continuing our discussion of our trauma processing modality, Mentalization-Baset Narrative Exposure Therapy for Complex Interpersonal Trauma (MBNET), with two of our colleagues who have trained with us in this method and are implementing it in their practices.

We’re going to talk about our aha moments with aspects of the modality, how it’s changed their practice, challenges for them and their clients in working with MBNET, and more. If you’re thinking about training with us at the Kiln and how learning this modality might enhance your work with your clients, this will give you a taste of what that’s like.

Phoenix McCulloch (she/her) is a relational trauma therapist in Portland, Oregon who works primarily with trans, neurodivergent, and chronically ill clients. Phoenix primarily uses Narrative Exposure Therapy, as well as Mindful and Somatic approaches. She also facilitates two weekly process/support groups. Phoenix is autistic, a parent, an obsessive gardener, and loves talking to resident backyard creatures.

Rhiannon Theurer (she/her)  is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist and the author of the forthcoming Neurodivergence Workbook for Teens. She works in private practice with neurodivergent adolescents and adults on trauma processing and building a life worth living. 

Listen to the full episode to hear:

• Why treating interpersonal trauma needs to go deeper than surface-level details and get to the heart of the interaction
• How mentalization helps both client and therapist get away from minimizing or ascribing positive intent to negative or traumatic interactions
• How the structure of MBNET lends confidence and clarity for clients in the process of trauma therapy
• How clients explicitly sharing their narratives allows for deeper witnessing and validation
• How working with MBNET challenges clinicians to be bolder and more persistent in breaking down clients’ false narratives and avoidance strategies
• How reducing avoidance helps client reclaim their past, hold more complexity, and create lasting change in their lives and relationships

Learn more about The Kiln:

• Website

Learn more about Phoenix McCulloch, LCSW

• Mount Tabor Therapy

Learn more about Rhiannon Theurer, LMFT

• Website
• The Neurodivergence Workbook for Teens

Learn more about Dr. Kae Hixson:

• Website

Learn more about Riva Stoudt:

• Into the Woods Counseling
• Instagram

So if we at The Kiln believe in engaging directly with clients’ traumatic memories in order to help them process, how do we go about that intentionally and effectively?

Today, we are talking about MBNET–Mentalization-Based Narrative Exposure Therapy for Complex Interpersonal Trauma–the trauma processing modality that we developed and that we teach at The Kiln and use with our own clients.

MBNET is a structured treatment for people with problems related to having experienced complex interpersonal trauma. Its application isn’t limited specifically to complex PTSD but can be effective for any problems that present as a result of having experienced complex interpersonal trauma.

MBNET works directly with clients’ traumatic memory content and their narratives of their memories, and it integrates the framework of mentalization, which is present in all of our relationships and heavily implicated in interpersonal trauma.

We have found that using MBNET has the capacity to be healing and transformative for clients and we are passionate about sharing this modality.

Listen to the full episode to hear:

• How Narrative Exposure Therapy addresses trauma across the lifespan and in social context
• How we brought mentalization and NET together to form an effective container for processing interpersonal trauma
• How MBNET provides a scaffold for the complex, nonlinear nature of trauma processing
• How MBNET helps clinicians get to the deep level of detail needed for their clients to process their traumatic memories
• How mentalization breaks down clients’ avoidance, denial, and minimization of their trauma
• Why MBNET requires clients to give deep, detailed accountings of specific incidents in order to put them to rest
• How individual healing is necessary to support collective growth and action

Learn more about The Kiln:

• Website

Learn more about Dr. Kae Hixson:

• Website

Learn more about Riva Stoudt:

• Into the Woods Counseling
• Instagram

Resources:

• Passionate Marriage: Love, Sex, and Intimacy in Emotionally Committed Relationships, David Schnarch, PhD

Brain Talk: How Mind Mapping Brain Science Can Change Your Life & Everyone In It, David Schnarch, PhD

Trauma has been having a moment. 

People are talking about trauma everywhere, from social media to magazine covers, but the prevalence of trauma in our society isn’t shrinking anytime soon. Trauma happens in our families, our relationships, our workplaces, our culture, and our society.

However, there is a prevailing school of thought that therapists should avoid exposing their clients to their traumatic memories and that doing so may be actively harmful.

To which we call BS.

We believe, from our own experiences and from working with clients, that engaging intentionally with traumatic memories helps people process and lessens the impact of those events on their lives.

At The Kiln, we support therapists in challenging the anti-exposure paradigm so that they can do this work with confidence and courage.

Listen to the full episode to hear:

• The rapid rise of anti-exposure sentiment thanks to social media
• How exposure helps people learn that their memories are not dangerous
• Why all therapists need to be prepared to hold space for clients who want to talk about their trauma
• How exposure-based therapy positively impacts clients’ self-concept
• Why our professional culture needs to be more honest about the work being scary and difficult sometimes
• How the field’s fear of exposure-based therapy hurts the people who have been impacted by trauma the most
• How avoiding traumatic memories pushes past and present trauma back underground, with our clients and in our culture

Learn more about The Kiln:

• Website

Learn more about Dr. Kae Hixson:

• Website

Learn more about Riva Stoudt:

• Into the Woods Counseling
• Instagram

Resources:

• Waking the Tiger: Healing Trauma, Peter A. Levine
• The Body Keeps the Score: Brain, Mind, and Body in the Healing of Trauma, Bessel Van Der Kolk
• Trauma and Recovery The Aftermath of Violence: From Domestic Abuse to Political Terror, Judith L. Herman
• She Redefined Trauma. Then Trauma Redefined Her. - The New York Times
• Truth and Repair: How Trauma Survivors Envision Justice, Judith L. Herman

The person of the therapist is foundational to the work we do and the relationships we build with our clients. But all too often, the discourse stops at “You have to do your own work.”

We need to talk about what that means and how our awareness of and engagement with our own deeper layers influences and can enhance the work we do with clients. 

Today, we’re talking about how the person of the therapist impacts us, from deciding to become a therapist in the first place to how we engage with our own issues throughout our careers. 

Listen to the full episode to hear:

• Why we need to interrogate what brings us as individuals to this particular version of wanting to help people
• How the spectre of the “good therapist” inhibits our ability to honestly engage with our baggage
• Why doing your own work isn’t about complete resolution, but engagement with your issues
• Why it’s okay to admit that this work meets more than just your need for a paycheck
• How social media therapy content engenders a people-pleasing, customer service mentality for therapists
• Why conflict tolerance is essential to the therapeutic relationship on both sides

Learn more about The Kiln:

• Website

Learn more about Dr. Kae Hixson:

• Website

Learn more about Riva Stoudt:

• Into the Woods Counseling
• Instagram

Resources:

• Season 3 Ep 5: From Childhood Wounds to Therapeutic Wisdom with Dr. Karen Maroda
• The Analyst's Vulnerability: Impact on Theory and Practice, Dr. Karen Maroda
• The Person of the Therapist Training Model: Mastering the Use of Self, Karni Kissil and Harry J. Aponte
• The Gift of Therapy: An Open Letter to a New Generation of Therapists and Their Patients, Irvin Yalom
• Unconditional Positive Regard

It’s impossible for any counseling graduate program to teach all the things. 

It’s a complex undertaking at best. But it’s been increasingly impacted by our field’s investment in differentiating professional identities. Are you a marriage and family therapist? A licensed clinical social worker? A psychologist? Your education will reflect that identity.

These professional paradigm turf wars cause troubling gaps in therapist education and they impact our clinical practice when we don’t communicate amongst each other.

We want to go deeper at The Kiln and fill the gaps on topics that are routinely missed or glossed over in graduate education and bring varied perspectives to our students. Because if the knowledge or theory helps us be better therapists, does it really matter what discipline it comes from?

Listen to the full episode to hear:

• What we lose when we build silos around our professional identities
• How the push for accreditation can narrow curriculum to the point of leaving out crucial foundations
• How paradigm turf wars contribute to unproductive, reductionist arguments and isolation
• How the limitations of grad schools’ ability to teach in nuanced ways about complex subjects like diagnosis impact clinical practice
• The importance of learning from others who are actively practicing the work, and from studying your own work
• Why we believe in cultivating an ethos of career-long learning and growth

Learn more about The Kiln:

• Website

Learn more about Dr. Kae Hixson:

• Website

Learn more about Riva Stoudt, MA, LPC:

• Into the Woods Counseling
• Instagram

Resources:

• The New Unconscious, James S. Uleman, John A. Bargh, and Ran R. Hassin
• Season 3 Ep 5: From Childhood Wounds to Therapeutic Wisdom with Dr. Karen Maroda
• The Analyst's Vulnerability: Impact on Theory and Practice, Dr. Karen Maroda
• Season 3 Ep 11: Redefining Psychiatric Constructs with Dr. Miri Forbes

Why would we get involved in postgraduate education for therapists?

Most recent masters program grads say they feel underprepared and often isolated as they face the challenges of licensure and beginning to take on clients. 

We believe that early-career therapists need mentorship, community, and a space where they, their peers, and their more experienced colleagues can all be honest about the realities of doing this work. If therapists are going to have the courage to help their clients put it all on the table, they need spaces where they get that support and education too.

Today, we’re talking about how and why we came together to start The Kiln.

Listen to the full episode to hear:

• What drew each of us to wanting to offer continuing education to postgraduate therapists
• How fostering community, vulnerability, and authenticity in the postgraduate experience combats isolation and generates growth
• Why we have to be willing to admit that we all have issues that impact our work and we will make mistakes
• Why therapists can’t–and shouldn’t try to–completely separate their personal and professional selves
• How the focus on modalities too often overrides teaching the foundational relational skills needed to be an effective therapist

Learn more about The Kiln:

• Website

Learn more about Dr. Kae Hixson:

• Website

Learn more about Riva Stoudt, MA, LPC:

• Into the Woods Counseling
• Instagram

Welcome to The Kiln, where we offer postgraduate education that helps you become the therapist you’ve always known you could be.

At The Kiln, we’re here to change our professional culture. To make it braver.

We want to help therapists get excited about this work again. And to make a place where it’s okay for therapists to be imperfect.

And we want to create a learning community where we’re committed to practicing trauma therapy not just with competence but with courage.

On this podcast, we’ll share what it is exactly that we’re up to over here at The Kiln and why.

Learn more about The Kiln:

• Website

Learn more about Dr. Kae Hixson:

• Website

Learn more about Riva Stoudt, MA, LPC:

• Into the Woods Counseling
• Instagram