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The Lab Report episodes

  • Dr. Datis Kharrazian on Mitochondria, Brain Fatigue, and Autoimmunity

    Mitochondria are the powerhouses of the cell which function to make ATP and energy. Their role in chronic disease is widely studied and often overlooked. Symptoms and root causes of mitochondrial dysfunction can be difficult to pinpoint in your patients. When it comes to relating this to brain fatigue or thyroid dysfunction, Dr. Datis Kharrazian is an expert. He has written several books and lectured extensively on these topics.

    In this episode, Dr. Kharrazian outlines his approach to chronic disease using the lost art of the physical exam, laboratory assessments, and a review of current literature. Learn how he uses subtle clues to uncover root causes and what he does to improve patient outcomes.

     “One of your best windows to assess mitochondrial compromise is to look at the brain.” – Dr. Datis Kharrazian

    Today on The Lab Report:

    • 2:40 Meet Dr. Datis Kharrazian
    • 10:10 Mitochondrial dysfunction and how it affects the brain
    • 13:00 Symptoms, causes, and treatment of brain fatigue
    • 19:00 The functional neurological exam
    • 21:00 Stimulating neurologic mitochondrial biogenesis
    • 22:50 Working up brain fatigue with functional labs and physical exam
    • 28:05 Functional medicine approach to autoimmune thyroid disease
    • 31:32 Intestinal permeability, gluten, and lectins in autoimmunity
    • 39:00 Using stool testing and food antibody testing to assess immune tolerance
    • 43:40 Kharrazian explains his extensive new patient work up
    • 48:35 The Kharrazian Institute
    • 53:25 The Fireball

    Additional Resources:

    Kharrazian Resource Center

    Kharrazian Institute

    Why Isn't My Brain Working?

    Why Do I Still Have Thyroid Symptoms When My Lab Tests Are Normal?

    Immunological Reactivity Using Monoclonal and Polyclonal Antibodies of Autoimmune Thyroid Target Sites with Dietary Proteins

    Subscribe, Rate, & Review The Lab Report

    Thanks for tuning in to this week’s episode of The Lab Report, presented by Genova Diagnostics, with your hosts Michael Chapman and Patti Devers. If you enjoyed this episode, please hit the subscribe button and give us a rating or leave a review.

    Don’t forget to visit our website, like us on Facebook, follow us on Twitter, Instagram, and LinkedIn. Email Patti and Michael with your most interesting and pressing questions on functional medicine: [email protected].

    And, be sure to share your favorite Lab Report episodes with your friends and colleagues on social media to help others learn more about Genova and all things related to functional medicine and specialty lab testing.

     

    See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

    57 min
  • The Multi-Omics Series Part 3: CYP1B1 and Estrogen Detoxification

    Multi-omics is the layering of genetic information (genomics) with laboratory biomarker results (metabolomics) to understand the root cause of disease and risk. This educational series focuses on genetic variants in specific enzymes and explains how to evaluate the systemic effects.

    Today’s episode is a discussion of the cytochrome P450 enzyme CYP1B1. This enzyme is important in hormone detoxification. Genetic variants (single nucleotide polymorphisms or SNPs) in CYP1B1 might predispose a patient for risk regarding many hormonally mediated diseases, though this is not always the case. Listen to find out more about the enzyme pathways used in estrogen detoxification, what to look for when deciding if a genetic variant in CYP1B1 is expressed, and learn what you can do to about it.

    “Some SNPs result in an enzyme that works faster (upregulation). Some SNPs result in an enzyme that works slower (downregulation).” – Michael Chapman, ND

    Today on The Lab Report:

    • 2:30 Cytochrome P450 enzymes and CYP1B1
    • 2:55 Review of general Phase I and Phase II detoxification
    • 7:00 Basics of estrogen detoxification pathways and where CYP1B1 works
    • 9:00 What does a SNP in CYB1B1 do?
    • 11:45 What profiles and biomarkers are helpful to assess expression of a CYPB1B1 SNP?
    • 17:00 How do we support patients with a CYP1B1 SNP?
    • 21:05 Question of the day:
      • “What is the difference between FMV and 24hour Complete Hormones?”

    Subscribe, Rate, & Review The Lab Report

    Thanks for tuning in to this week’s episode of The Lab Report, presented by Genova Diagnostics, with your hosts Michael Chapman and Patti Devers. If you enjoyed this episode, please hit the subscribe button and give us a rating or leave a review.

    Don’t forget to visit our website, like us on Facebook, follow us on Twitter, Instagram, and LinkedIn. Email Patti and Michael with your most interesting and pressing questions on functional medicine: [email protected].

    And, be sure to share your favorite Lab Report episodes with your friends and colleagues on social media to help others learn more about Genova and all things related to functional medicine and specialty lab testing.

    Disclaimer: The content and information shared in The Lab Report is for educational purposes only and show not be taken as medical advice. The views and opinions expressed in The Lab Report represent the opinions and views of Michael Chapman and Patti Devers and their guests.

    See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

    26 min
  • Debunking Supplement Myths with Dr. Tom Guilliams Part 2

    In the last episode, we introduced Dr. Tom Guilliams, who is an author and researcher in the field of all things functional medicine. In fact, he’s written several books through the Point Institute which have changed the way many clinicians think about basic functional medicine topics.  His unique association with large supplement companies in conjunction with his vast knowledge of biochemistry and physiology makes him the perfect person to answer all of our burning questions around the use of supplementation in functional medicine.

    This episode is a continuation of our prior interview where we gained insight into best practices when it comes to supplements. In this second half of our discussion, we focus on the GI tract, the use of probiotics, as well as his take on anti-nutrients.

    “Probiotics have a specific definition – roughly, they are live microorganisms that, when taken at a certain dose, have a clinically measurable effect.” – Dr. Tom Guilliams 

    Today on The Lab Report:

    • 2:15 ICYMI, who is Tom Guilliams?
    • 3:30 Do we need to refrigerate probiotics?
    • 6:30 Do probiotics actually colonize the GI tract?
    • 9:00 Probiotic stability concerns
    • 9:45 Spore-based probiotics
    • 14:00 Probiotics are transient, and that is a good thing
    • 15:30 Future of probiotic strains
    • 16:30 Probiotic and prebiotic use in SIBO
    • 21:20 Anti-nutrients and the loaded lectin question
    • 25:00 The Fireball
    • 30:00 Question of the Day: Do spore-based probiotics influence the GI Effects Stool Profile?

     

    Additional Resources: 

    • Point Institute
    • Supplementing Dietary Nutrients, 2nd ed.
    • The Role of Stress and the HPA Axis in Chronic Disease Management
    • Cardiometabolic Risk Management
    • Functional Strategies for the Management of Gastrointestinal Disorders
    • Supporting Immune Function
    • The Original Prescription

     

    Subscribe, Rate, & Review The Lab Report

    Thanks for tuning in to this week’s episode of The Lab Report, presented by Genova Diagnostics, with your hosts Michael Chapman and Patti Devers. If you enjoyed this episode, please hit the subscribe button and give us a rating or leave a review.

    Don’t forget to visit our website, like us on Facebook, follow us on Twitter, Instagram, and LinkedIn. Email Patti and Michael with your most interesting and pressing questions on functional medicine: [email protected].

    And, be sure to share your favorite Lab Report episodes with your friends and colleagues on social media to help others learn more about Genova and all things related to functional medicine and specialty lab testing.

    Disclaimer: The content and information shared in The Lab Report is for educational purposes only and show not be taken as medical advice. The views and opinions expressed in The Lab Report represent the opinions and views of Michael Chapman and Patti Devers and their guests.

     

     

    See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

    34 min
  • Debunking Supplement Myths with Dr. Tom Guilliams Part 1

    Dr. Tom Guilliams has been reading and studying the literature for years regarding all things functional medicine. In fact, he’s written several books through the Point Institute which have changed the way many clinicians think about basic functional medicine topics. His extensive breadth of knowledge on the latest literature and his close association with major supplement companies has given him a unique perspective on how supplements are used within our field.

    Today’s episode contains the first half of an extensive interview addressing the most frequently asked questions regarding the use and misuse of dietary supplements. Dr. Guilliams draws on his impressive knowledge of biochemistry and physiology to explain why and where we might be spending our supplement dollars unwisely. He also lays out an interesting paradigm shift in how we look at hormone metabolism.

     

    “Delivering any supplement or nutrient in any way other than swallowing it makes it a drug.” – Dr. Tom Guilliams

     

    Today on The Lab Report:

    • 2:15 Introducing Tom Guilliams, PhD
    • 5:05 Tom’s favorite book to write
    • 7:45 ‘Cortisol/Pregnenalone Steal’ is a misnomer
    • 10:30 Should we all be taking a multivitamin?
    • 12:30 ‘Food-based’ vitamins vs. ‘synthetic’ vitamins
    • 16:15 What form of folate should we use to supplement?
    • 18:00 Unmetabolized Folic Acid (UMFA)
    • 20:15 Are ‘activated’ B-vitamins superior?
    • 24:20 Liposomal glutathione and glutathione levels
    • 28:00 NAD supplementation
    • 31:30 Sublingual and topical application of nutrients

     

    Additional Resources:  

    • Point Institute
    • Supplementing Dietary Nutrients, 2nd ed.
    • The Role of Stress and the HPA Axis in Chronic Disease Management
    • Cardiometabolic Risk Management
    • Functional Strategies for the Management of Gastrointestinal Disorders
    • Supporting Immune Function
    • The Original Prescription

     

    Subscribe, Rate, & Review The Lab Report

    Thanks for tuning in to this week’s episode of The Lab Report, presented by Genova Diagnostics, with your hosts Michael Chapman and Patti Devers. If you enjoyed this episode, please hit the subscribe button and give us a rating or leave a review.

    Don’t forget to visit our website, like us on Facebook, follow us on Twitter, Instagram, and LinkedIn. Email Patti and Michael with your most interesting and pressing questions on functional medicine: [email protected].

    And, be sure to share your favorite Lab Report episodes with your friends and colleagues on social media to help others learn more about Genova and all things related to functional medicine and specialty lab testing.

    Disclaimer: The content and information shared in The Lab Report is for educational purposes only and show not be taken as medical advice. The views and opinions expressed in The Lab Report represent the opinions and views of Michael Chapman and Patti Devers and their guests.

     

    See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

    35 min
  • The Multi-Omics Series Part 2: MTHFR

    A multi-omic assessment combines your genetic blueprint (genomics) with laboratory biomarker information (metabolomics) to provide a deeper understanding of the root cause of disease or disease risk. By starting with a specific enzyme and discussing what it does in the body, we can start to map its systemic effects and gather important data. When there are genetic variants in that enzyme many systems can be affected.

    Today’s episode discusses the enzyme 5,10 methylenetetrahydrofolate reductase or “MTHFR”. In functional medicine, MTHFR is a common topic that is often debated and misunderstood. We explain what MTHFR does in the body and why it is important. Genetic variants in this enzyme can predispose a person to many clinical conditions but these are not always expressed. Hear why that is, and what you need to assess to get the full picture.

    “Genes do not make your destiny, and SNPs do not always manifest themselves as a biological or functional problem.” – Michael Chapman

    Today on The Lab Report Podcast:

    • 2:30 What is a multi-omics assessment?
    • 4:00 The basics of methylation and why it’s important
    • 7:00 What is MTHFR and how does it relate to folate and methylation
    • 8:55 Possible effects of genetic single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs) related to MTHFR
    • 11:30 Which profiles and biomarkers can give multi-omic information about MTHFR SNPs?
    • 16:45 How do we support patients with MTHFR SNPs, and should we give methylated vitamins
    • 22:05 Question of the day: “How common is it to have an MTHFR SNP?”

    Subscribe, Rate & Review The Lab Report

    Thanks for tuning in to this week’s episode of The Lab Report, presented by Genova Diagnostics, with your hosts Michael Chapman and Patti Devers. If you enjoyed this episode, please hit the subscribe button and give us a rating or leave a review.

    Don’t forget to visit our website, like us on Facebook, follow us on Twitter, Instagram, and LinkedIn. Email Patti and Michael with your most interesting and pressing questions on functional medicine: [email protected].

    And, be sure to share your favorite Lab Report episodes with your friends and colleagues on social media to help others learn more about Genova and all things related to functional medicine and specialty lab testing.

    ~~

    Disclaimer: The content and information shared in The Lab Report is for educational purposes only and should not be taken as medical advice. The views and opinions expressed in The Lab Report represent the opinions of Michael Chapman and Patti Devers and their guests.

    For medical advice, diagnosis, and/or treatment, please consult a medical professional.

    See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

    28 min
  • The Multi-Omics Series Part 1: COMT

    Not all tests are created equal. There are tests used for standard and routine medical procedures, and ones that are only prescribed for specific circumstances. A multi-omics test is one of them. This test deals with different data sets comprising the genome, the microbiome, and the epigenome. It’s meant to target the very reasons why a person is sick or has problems with specific foods from which functional treatment can be made.

     

    In today’s episode, we discuss the science behind the multi-omics test, the different types of data it analyzes, and what makes it an effective way in finding treatment. We describe the effects of a person’s ethnicity with their genes and how it affects test results. We explain what a COMT is, what it does to our hormones, and how it affects our brain. We also share the best ways to treat any abnormalities found in a multi-omics test.

     

    "The more rare a polymorphism is, the more it has clinical associations when it is found.'" - Michael Chapman

     

    This week on The Lab Report Podcast:

    • The difference between genomics and metabolomics.
    • What multi-omics tests are and what they bring to the table.
    • The effects of ethnicity with regards to what test results should look like.
    • The different metabolites that are tested in multi-omics.
    • What COMT is and how it affects our body's hormones.
    • How do you treat abnormalities brought about by metabolites?

     

    Subscribe, Rate & Review The Lab Report

    Thanks for tuning into this week’s episode of The Lab Report, presented by Genova Diagnostics, with your hosts, Michael Chapman and Patti Devers. If you enjoyed this episode, please head over to Apple Podcasts to subscribe to the show and give us a rating and review.

    Don’t forget to visit our website, like us on Facebook, and follow us on Twitter, Instagram and LinkedIn. Email Patti and Michael with your most pressing questions on functional medicine.

    And be sure to share your favorite Lab Report episodes with your friends and colleagues on social media to help others learn more about Genova and all things related to functional medicine and specialty lab testing.

     

    Disclaimer: The content and information shared in The Lab Report is for educational purposes only and should not be taken as medical advice. The views and opinions expressed in The Lab Report represent the opinions of Michael Chapman and Patti Devers and their guests.

    For medical advice, diagnosis, and/or treatment, please consult a medical professional.

    See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

    25 min
  • Healthy Living PIVOT and the Global Path Forward with Dr. Ross Arena

    Dr. Ross Arena is a professor and Department Head of Physical Therapy at the University of Illinois at Chicago. He has over 850 peer-reviewed publications, abstracts, and book chapters. He is a Fellow at the American Heart Association and European Society of Cardiology. He specializes in cardiopulmonary physical therapy and exercise science. Ross also helps companies promote a culture of health and is a strong advocate of movement, stating the health benefits of a tiny bit of exercise is vastly superior to no exercise at all.

    Ross joins us to share his wisdom with regards to the health benefits of physical activity and its effects on longevity. He describes where he began his journey into exercise science and why he chose to pursue a career in research. He explains the adverse effects of being sedentary for long periods, such as what everybody experienced during the pandemic. Ross also discusses some of the important factors that determine long-term health and what the research shows about the right dose of exercise.

    "We should start to think about how we work together in a different way to create a culture of health." - Dr. Ross Arena

     

    This week on The Lab Report Podcast:

    • Ross’s academic milestones and the number of papers he's published.
    • The reason Ross focused on the science of physical performance and health.
    • Ross' thoughts about the pandemic and its effects on physical activity.
    • The long-term health effects of physical inactivity.
    • Ross' nutritional and fitness advice and the importance of knowing the right dosage for each.
    • The importance of letting your patients motivate themselves to get healthier.
    • How companies can create a culture of health among their employees.
    • The most important physical activity factors that can impact longevity.
    • Exercises to reduce the prevalence of heart failure and risks of falls.

     

    Resources Mentioned:

    • PuBMed

     

    Connect with Dr. Ross Arena:

    • University of Illinois in Chicago

     

    Subscribe, Rate & Review The Lab Report

    Thanks for tuning into this week’s episode of The Lab Report, presented by Genova Diagnostics, with your hosts, Michael Chapman and Patti Devers. If you enjoyed this episode, please head over to Apple Podcasts to subscribe to the show and give us a rating and review.

    Don’t forget to visit our website, like us on Facebook, and follow us on Twitter, Instagram and LinkedIn. Email Patti and Michael with your most pressing questions on functional medicine.

    And be sure to share your favorite Lab Report episodes with your friends and colleagues on social media to help others learn more about Genova and all things related to functional medicine and specialty lab testing.

     

    Disclaimer: The content and information shared in The Lab Report is for educational purposes only and should not be taken as medical advice. The views and opinions expressed in The Lab Report represent the opinions of Michael Chapman and Patti Devers and their guests.

    For medical advice, diagnosis, and/or treatment, please consult a medical professional.

    See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

    51 min
  • Dr. Paul Saladino on the Carnivore Diet & Plant Toxicities

    Dr. Saladino is the leading authority on the science and application of the carnivore diet. He has used this diet to reverse autoimmunity, chronic inflammation and mental health issues in hundreds of patients, many of whom had been told their conditions were untreatable. In addition to his personal podcast, Fundamental Health, he can be found featured on numerous podcasts including The Minimalists, The Model Health Show, Bulletproof Radio, The Dr. Gundry Podcast, The Ben Greenfield Podcast, Dr. Mercola, Health Theory, Mark Bell’s Power Project, and many others. He has also appeared on The Doctors TV show and authored the bestselling book, “The Carnivore Code: Unlocking the Secrets to Optimal Health by Returning to our Ancestral Diet.”

    Dr. Saladino completed residency at the University of Washington. He attended medical school at the University of Arizona focusing on integrative medicine and nutritional biochemistry. When he is not researching connections between nutritional biochemistry and chronic disease, he can be found cultivating mindfulness, spending time with friends and family, and he used to be found in the ocean searching for the perfect wave prior to his recent move.

    “All of these things that we’ve been told may not be canonically as true as we’ve been led to believe." - Dr. Paul Saladino

     

    This week on The Lab Report Podcast:

    • Why Paul decided to focus his career on the carnivore diet.
    • What the "Carnivore Diet" is.
    • How the human body responds to plant toxins.
    • The composition of the human diet in the last two million years.
    • How being carnivorous could have helped humans evolve.
    • Paul's thoughts on polyphenols and phytonutrients.
    • What hormesis is and where the idea came from.
    • Why plant compounds have redundant benefits with ignored side effects.
    • Paul's thoughts on short chain fatty acids and the effects of fiber on gut bacteria.

     

    Connect with Dr. Paul Saladino: 

    • Carnivore MD
    • Book: The Carnivore Code

     

    Subscribe, Rate & Review The Lab Report

     

    Thanks for tuning into this week’s episode of The Lab Report, presented by Genova Diagnostics, with your hosts, Michael Chapman and Patti Devers. If you enjoyed this episode, please head over to Apple Podcasts to subscribe to the show and give us a rating and review.

    Don’t forget to visit our website, like us on Facebook, and follow us on Twitter, Instagram and LinkedIn. Email Patti and Michael with your most pressing questions on functional medicine.

    And be sure to share your favorite Lab Report episodes with your friends and colleagues on social media to help others learn more about Genova and all things related to functional medicine and specialty lab testing.

     

    Disclaimer: The content and information shared in The Lab Report is for educational purposes only and should not be taken as medical advice. The views and opinions expressed in The Lab Report represent the opinions of Michael Chapman and Patti Devers and their guests.

    For medical advice, diagnosis, and/or treatment, please consult a medical professional.

    See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

    59 min
  • Patti & Michael Discuss Genova's New Metabolomix+ Profile

    There are different types of tests for different types of conditions and many of them have cemented their status as a standard procedure. However, not all tests are created equal, and sometimes you need a deeper look into your blood chemistry to truly find what’s wrong with your body. One of these tests is a metabolomic test.

     

    What is a metabolomic test? What do they measure and what do they indicate?

     

    Today, we describe what a metabolomic test is and what you can learn from the results. We explain some of the biochemical compounds it can test and how SNPs relate to metabolomics. We discuss how a typical test is performed, the steps involved, and the preparation needed for accurate results. We also discuss the difference between measuring metabolites and fatty acids and share when Genova will have the Metabolomix+ Profile  test available for public use.

     

    “When you’re talking about a metabolomic test, you’re talking about an evaluation of tons of biochemical molecules.” - Michael Chapman

     

    This week on The Lab Report Podcast:

     

    • What a metabolomic test is and why it's important for health.
    • What metabolites are and what the measuring results indicate.
    • How SNPs relate to metabolomic tests.
    • The steps involved in a typical metabolomic test.
    • Different metabolites measured in metabolomics.
    • The difference between measuring metabolites and fatty acids.

     

    Question of the Day: 

    • “When is the Metabolomix+ Profile coming out? What does this mean for the ONE test?”

     

    Subscribe, Rate & Review The Lab Report

     

    Thanks for tuning into this week’s episode of The Lab Report, presented by Genova Diagnostics, with your hosts, Michael Chapman and Patti Devers. If you enjoyed this episode, please head over to Apple Podcasts to subscribe to the show and give us a rating and review.

     

    Don’t forget to visit our website, like us on Facebook, and follow us on Twitter, Instagramand LinkedIn. Email Patti and Michael with your most pressing questions on functional medicine.

     

    And be sure to share your favorite Lab Report episodes with your friends and colleagues on social media to help others learn more about Genova and all things related to functional medicine and specialty lab testing.

     

    Disclaimer:The content and information shared in The Lab Report is for educational purposes only and should not be taken as medical advice. The views and opinions expressed in The Lab Report represent the opinions of Michael Chapman and Patti Devers and their guests.

    For medical advice, diagnosis, and/or treatment, please consult a medical professional.

    See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

    23 min
  • Patti & Michael Talk SNPology 101

    Our genetic makeup is the very foundation of what we are. From conception to death, our genes play a major role in determining our physical, mental, and even emotional attributes. Genes also determine how strong or susceptible we are to many conditions and diseases. There are also genes that change over time, and one of these genetic variations is called single nucleotide polymorphisms or SNPs.

    What are SNPs and how do they affect a person’s health?

    Today, we discuss what SNPs are and their importance in genetic health. We describe some of the common SNPs, like MTHFR, and explain how someone with SNPs can compensate for their health with regards to nutrient deficiencies. We discuss how practitioners can narrow down the SNPs that need immediate attention. We also share the reason why we avoid using the word “mutation” when describing SNPs.

     

    “If there's a metabolic backup in a pathway, that can affect your biochemistry.” - Michael Chapman

     

    This week on The Lab Report Podcast:

    • What SNPs are and how important they are in the study of genetics.
    • Why we don't refer to SNP changes as mutations.
    • Relating epigenetics to SNPs and factors that contribute to genetic alterations.
    • How common it is to have an MTHFR SNP.
    • Diet and nutrient compensation for those who have SNPs.
    • Narrowing the SNPs that need evaluation.
    • Different kinds of SNPs we're going to discuss in the future.

     

    Question of the Day:

    • "What does being heterozygous or homozygous mean for SNPs?"

     

      Subscribe, Rate & Review The Lab Report

    Thanks for tuning into this week’s episode of The Lab Report, presented by Genova Diagnostics, with your hosts, Michael Chapman and Patti Devers. If you enjoyed this episode, please head over to Apple Podcasts to subscribe to the show and give us a rating and review.

    Don’t forget to visit our website, like us on Facebook, and follow us on Twitter, Instagram and LinkedIn. Email Patti and Michael with your most pressing questions on functional medicine.

    And be sure to share your favorite Lab Report episodes with your friends and colleagues on social media to help others learn more about Genova and all things related to functional medicine and specialty lab testing.

     

    Disclaimer: The content and information shared in The Lab Report is for educational purposes only and should not be taken as medical advice. The views and opinions expressed in The Lab Report represent the opinions of Michael Chapman and Patti Devers and their guests.

    For medical advice, diagnosis, and/or treatment, please consult a medical professional.

    See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

    24 min

About The Lab Report

From the publisher's feed

The world of medicine can be challenging. Clinicians and patients are always looking for more options, more effective treatments… and in the end, more answers. What if there was a way to practice medicine that digs deeper and offers a new perspective? Functional medicine focuses on addressing root causes of disease. At Genova Diagnostics we’ve watched this field evolve and grow for over 35 years….