Part 2 of 'Echoes of the Tao, Seeking Truth Across Traditions,' starts with 'what does it mean to Serve and Love God (or Tao)?

Biographies of Panel:

Dr. Bob Insull is an New York State Licensed Psychologist with more than 60 years experience teaching, training, and treating in the arena of human behavior. In his clinical practice, he has worked across the developmental stages (children to golden-agers), across the diagnostic spectrum (chemical dependency, severe mental illness, relationship issues, depression, anxiety, and PTSD), and treatment settings (clinics, inpatient psychiatric centers, and private practice). During the closing years of his practice, he became interested in the area of psychological trauma and worked with survivors in individual and group settings. He has been retired from active practice for about 15 years and spends his time engaged in self-discovery on the Sufi Path and social-change activities with his church.

------

Brian Mistler enjoys communing with fellow inquirers and reflecting together on revealed perennial wisdom.

-------

Richard Grego is Professor of philosophy and cultural history at FSCJ. His research interests focus on cross cultural themes in religion and science - including philosophy of mind, comparative world religions/world civilizations, and the metaphysical - theological implications of theoretical physics and cosmology. His publications have included studies in the history - philosophy of science and conceptions of nature in the history of western philosophy, as well as cross-cultural perspectives on mind/ consciousness in western philosophy - psychology and the neo-Vedanta Hindu tradition. Prior to his academic career, he was a criminal investigator - polygraph examiner for the Florida Office of the Public Defender and in the private sector Instructor at the Criminal Justice Institute and International Academy of Polygraph Science in Florida, and national Academic Director of the Criminal Defense Investigation Training Council.

-------

Joel David Lesses is President and Executive Director of Education Training Center, Inc. and his work experience is in education, psychology, and counseling for people marginalized by trauma, addiction, and psychological distress. He is deeply vested in addressing the effects of mental health distress and its marginalization including, incarceration, homelessness, and institutionalization. Joel is dedicated to reframing mental health distress as a potential spiritual marker and existential opportunity. He holds dual Master of Science degrees from University at Buffalo in Rehabilitation Counseling and Biomedical Sciences with a concentration in Epidemiology.   

-------

Henry Cretella, M.D. studied and practiced Tibetan Buddhism for several years along with training in martial arts.  He then immersed himself in the more universal Sufism of Inayat Khan, an Indian mystic, for close to twenty years. He functioned as a senior teacher in the Inayati Order and the Sufi Healing Order before pursuing  his independent practice and study of mysticism. He now integrates what he has learned and experienced over these many years. He graduated from Vanderbilt Medical School and completed his psychiatric training at Strong Memorial Hospital of the University of Rochester in Rochester, NY.  His professional career spanned over 40 years as a general and child and adolescent psychiatrist and included teaching, administration, clinical practice and consultation in the greater Rochester and western NY areas.  This, along with his spiritual and especially mystical interests lead him to certification as a mind body practitioner through the Center for Mind Body Medicine and Dr. James Gordon.  He retired several years ago from active psychiatric practice, but continues to incorporate what he has learned into his spiritual practices and offerings.

In this exploration of the Tao Te Ching and other traditions, the conversation opens to introductions  of the five Panelists and a invocation of hope of others to investigate the Tao Te Ching. 

Bob, Brian, Rich, Henry and Joel share Verse 1 and questions arise:

Biographies of Panel:

Dr. Bob Insull is an New York State Licensed Psychologist with more than 60 years experience teaching, training, and treating in the arena of human behavior. In his clinical practice, he has worked across the developmental stages (children to golden-agers), across the diagnostic spectrum (chemical dependency, severe mental illness, relationship issues, depression, anxiety, and PTSD), and treatment settings (clinics, inpatient psychiatric centers, and private practice). During the closing years of his practice, he became interested in the area of psychological trauma and worked with survivors in individual and group settings. He has been retired from active practice for about 15 years and spends his time engaged in self-discovery on the Sufi Path and social-change activities with his church.

-------

Brian Mistler enjoys communing with fellow inquirers and reflecting together on revealed perennial wisdom.

-------

Richard Grego is Professor of philosophy and cultural history at FSCJ. His research interests focus on cross cultural themes in religion and science - including philosophy of mind, comparative world religions/world civilizations, and the metaphysical - theological implications of theoretical physics and cosmology. His publications have included studies in the history - philosophy of science and conceptions of nature in the history of western philosophy, as well as cross-cultural perspectives on mind/ consciousness in western philosophy - psychology and the neo-Vedanta Hindu tradition. Prior to his academic career, he was a criminal investigator - polygraph examiner for the Florida Office of the Public Defender and in the private sector Instructor at the Criminal Justice Institute and International Academy of Polygraph Science in Florida, and national Academic Director of the Criminal Defense Investigation Training Council.

-------

Joel David Lesses is President and Executive Director of Education Training Center, Inc. and his work experience is in education, psychology, and counseling for people marginalized by trauma, addiction, and psychological distress. He is deeply vested in addressing the effects of mental health distress and its marginalization including, incarceration, homelessness, and institutionalization. Joel is dedicated to reframing mental health distress as a potential spiritual marker and existential opportunity. He holds dual Master of Science degrees from University at Buffalo in Rehabilitation Counseling and Biomedical Sciences with a concentration in Epidemiology.   

-------

Henry Cretella, M.D. studied and practiced Tibetan Buddhism for several years along with training in martial arts.  He then immersed himself in the more universal Sufism of Inayat Khan, an Indian mystic, for close to twenty years. He functioned as a senior teacher in the Inayati Order and the Sufi Healing Order before pursuing  his independent practice and study of mysticism. He now integrates what he has learned and experienced over these many years. He graduated from Vanderbilt Medical School and completed his psychiatric training at Strong Memorial Hospital of the University of Rochester in Rochester, NY.  His professional career spanned over 40 years as a general and child and adolescent psychiatrist and included teaching, administration, clinical practice and consultation in the greater Rochester and western NY areas.  This, along with his spiritual and especially mystical interests lead him to certification as a mind body practitioner through the Center for Mind Body Medicine and Dr. James Gordon.  He retired several years ago from active psychiatric practice, but continues to incorporate what he has learned into his spiritual practices and offerings.

On this cross-posted episode from the Unraveling Religion podcast, Pádraig Ó Tuama joins Unraveling Religion's Host, Joel Lesses, and shares a conversation from the heart about poetry, spirituality, community, and communion.

The conversation opens to how Joel and Pádraig met, and what informed Pádraig's life as a Poet and Theologian. Pádraig recalls the influences of Ireland and school and the foundation of poetry in that experience, and poetry as resistance, and the role of Peacemaker in the world.

Pádraig reads from his new book of poetry Kitchen Hymns' poem, 'The Long Table.'

The conversation opens to many faces of poetry and existence:

Pádraig closes with Kitchen Hymns' poem, 'Untitled.'

Biography

Pádraig Ó Tuama (b. 1975, Ireland) is a poet with interests in language, violence, power, and religion. He is the host of On Being’s Poetry Unbound and has published volumes of poetry, essays, a memoir and theology.  2025 saw the publication of  Kitchen Hymns, a volume of original poems, and the anthology 44 Poems on Being with Each Other; A Poetry Unbound Collection. He is a visiting scholar at the centre for Cooperation and Conflict Resolution at Columbia university in New York City.

Unraveling Religion Host:

Born in Buffalo, NY, Joel David Lesses has lived in Nepal and Israel, along with hosting Unraveling Religion is a poet expressing the landscape of our existence, capturing the mystical elements of our human being. World religion, poetry, spirituality, meditation, encompassing the makeup of our mind and life. The crux of his own personal journey are the manifestation of questions and answers to his personal koan “What is the matter with me?” which reveals the individual and universal aspects of our inherent and potent creativity. Everything is flux. Everything is poetry. Other passions include the intersection of poetry, spirituality, science and phenomenology shared and disparate in the human experience, and transformative power of self inquiry and introspection through contemplative and meditative practices with a belief that the fundamental transformation of individuals and our collective comes through barreling inward, relentlessly, the question, "Who am I?" or "What am I" or "What is the matter with me?" the latter being his question which after years of examination, shattered a false sense of self, the work of integration of that experience being an ongoing work in progress.

Unraveling Religion's episode with Crazywise Documentary Filmmaker Phil Borges who joins Joel for a discussion of Phil's life post Crazywise and together they explore mental health and its relation spirituality, beginning with how does one define spirituality. 

Phil's history of experiences into spirituality, beginning with the death of his father and Phil's Aunt returning from a psychiatric hospitalization to Phil's home when Phil was a boy.

Also discussed, Phil's career development and choice and his search for meaningful work; from Orthodontistry to Photography and shooting covers of Romance Novels, Phil begin an ascent into work and exploring indigenous cultures.

His first project was working on a project in Tibet which he meet a young man identified as a Tulku (i.e., channeler of the Nachung Oracle, the Oversoul Protector of the Tibetan People Culture and Heritage). 

Phil interviewed the Tulku and learned how he came to his position in the Tibetan community.

The indicators of this position were seen in his Tibetan Community as positive signs of a gifted person and included mood swings, personality changes, hearing voices, and seeing visions.

This mental health crisis was the mark of a gifted person in Tibetan community. 

In other work, Phil worked with Amnesty International and the Samburu Tribe in where he met a young woman who at 14 started hearing voices and seeing vision.

Her grandmother recognized she had the gift to become a predictor, healer, and shaman in her community and took her under her wing and mentored her and these gifts into a skillset to benefit the community.

As Phil worked with many indigenous communities he began to interview the shaman, seers, healers, and predictors of these communities and found about 85% of the shaman had an an initiation into the path of the Shaman by a mental health crisis, defined by what the West would call psychosis. 

The community understood the mental health crisis as the beginning of a process of developing a person to become a leader, healer, and teacher in their community, and an elder would take them under their wing and mentor and guide them.

The mental emotional crisis is known by many shaman as 'The Little Death' or Ego Death.

Phil also in his career worked with neuroscientists to research the pathways of the brain.

Sudden awakening versus slow awakening was discussed across cultures (i.e., Mahayana school of Soto and Rinzai).

Phil also discusses his own experiences with psychedelics and micro-dosing and the importance of integrating those expericences into daily life require effort and work.

Phil and Joel discuss that we each have a specific kind of work and the human's journey is to search and find what that work might be. 

Liminal Space was defined as a threshold or a doorway and rebuilding after a breakthrough.

Phil reflects on his life now and his work on his memoirs documenting where his quest for meaningful work took him through his life.

The idea, our obligation is to our humanity, looking within our selves we recognize our humanity

Biographies

Naomi Shihab Nye was born in St. Louis, Missouri. Her father was a Palestinian refugee and her mother an American of German and Swiss descent, and Nye spent her adolescence in both Jerusalem and San Antonio, Texas. She earned her BA from Trinity University in San Antonio. Nye is the recipient of numerous honors and awards for her work, including the Ivan Sandrof Award for Lifetime Achievement from the National Book Critics Circle, the Lavan Award, the Paterson Poetry Prize, the Carity Randall Prize, the Isabella Gardner Poetry Award, the Lee Bennett Hopkins Poetry award, the Robert Creeley Prize, and many Pushcart Prizes. She has received fellowships from the Lannan Foundation, the Guggenheim Foundation, and she was a Witter Bynner Fellow. From 2010 to 2015 she served as a Chancellor of the Academy of American Poets. In 2018 she was awarded the Lon Tinkle Award for Lifetime Achievement from the Texas Institute of Letters. Nye was the Poetry Foundation's Young People's Poet Laureate from 2019-2022.

Dr. Izzeldin Abuelaish, MD, MPH, is a Palestinian medical doctor who was born and raised in Jabalia Refugee Camp in the Gaza Strip. He is a passionate and eloquent proponent of peace between Palestinians and Israelis and has dedicated his life to using health as a vehicle for peace. He has succeeded despite all odds through a great determination of spirit, a strong faith, and a stalwart belief in hope and family. He has received a number of awards and nominations in recognition of his promotion of peace through health, and has been given seven honorary degrees. He has been nominated three years consecutively for the Nobel Peace Prize, and support for his candidacy keeps growing exponentially every year. He is the recipient of the Stavros Niarchos Prize for Survivorship, and was also nominated for the Sakharov Prize for Freedom of Thought. Since 2010 Dr. Abuelaish has also been named one of the 500 Most Influential Muslims by the Royal Islamic Strategic Studies Centre in Amman, Jordan for three consecutive years, and was the first ever recipient of the Mahatma Gandhi Peace Prize. Dr. Abuelaish’s book, I Shall Not Hate: A Gaza Doctor’s Journey, an autobiography inspired by the loss of his three daughters Bessan, Mayar, and Aya and his niece Noor to Israeli shelling on January 16, 2009, has achieved critical acclaim. Published in 2010, it has become an international best-seller and has been translated into 23 languages. The book has become a testament to his commitment to forgiveness as the solution to conflict, and the catalyst towards peace.

In a collaboration of Alchemical Dialogues and Unraveling Religion, co-hosted by Henry Cretella and Joel Lesses, Part 2 the Panels opens to discuss:

In a collaboration of Alchemical Dialogues and Unraveling Religion, co-hosted by Henry Cretella and Joel Lesses, Part 1 of this discussion examines psychology, philosophy, religion, spiritually, science, and medicine, a panel of five (5) people opens with the question, 'where am I?' and 'what is going on [in the world]?' and refers to James Hillman, ideas and action as an artificial distinction, are they the same thing? How are they interlinked?

The poet Major Ragain is quoted, 'contemplation alters the course of rivers.'

From the Bhagavad Gita:

Ghandi's, 'through service, I find myself.'

The Panel begins to examine the Taoist concept of non-action, Wu Wei.

How do we cultivate Wu Wei?

The Panel explores Univerisal Truths.

Biographies of Panel:

Dr. Bob Insull is an New York State Licensed Psychologist with more than 60 years experience teaching, training, and treating in the arena of human behavior. In his clinical practice, he has worked across the developmental stages (children to golden-agers), across the diagnostic spectrum (chemical dependency, severe mental illness, relationship issues, depression, anxiety, and PTSD), and treatment settings (clinics, inpatient psychiatric centers, and private practice). During the closing years of his practice, he became interested in the area of psychological trauma and worked with survivors in individual and group settings. He has been retired from active practice for about 15 years and spends his time engaged in self-discovery on the Sufi Path and social-change activities with his church.

Brian Mistler is a Missouri-hillbilly curious about Reality. He has lived as a computer scientist, psychologist, running and growing  businesses, and helping entrepreneurs, hospitals, and healthcare providers. Mid-life Brian had a partially debilitating nerve injury and soon after met a true Vedanta teacher who spent 30+ years in India and trained under Swami Chimayananda, Sawmi Dayananda, and others. This refocused his study of the classic non-dual wisdom as presented in the Bhagavad Gita and Upanishads. Learn more at http://www.stillcenter.media. Hari Om Tat Sat. Peace, peace, peace. 

Richard Grego is Professor of philosophy and cultural history at FSCJ. His research interests focus on cross cultural themes in religion and science - including philosophy of mind, comparative world religions/world civilizations, and the metaphysical - theological implications of theoretical physics and cosmology. His publications have included studies in the history - philosophy of science and conceptions of nature in the history of western philosophy, as well as cross-cultural perspectives on mind/ consciousness in western philosophy - psychology and the neo-Vedanta Hindu tradition. Prior to his academic career, he was a criminal investigator - polygraph examiner for the Florida Office of the Public Defender and in the private sector Instructor at the Criminal Justice Institute and International Academy of Polygraph Science in Florida, and national Academic Director of the Criminal Defense Investigation Training Council.

Joel David Lesses is President and Executive Director of Education Training Center, Inc. and his work experience is in education, psychology, and counseling for people marginalized by trauma, addiction, and psychological distress. He is deeply vested in addressing the effects of mental health distress and its marginalization including, incarceration, homelessness, and institutionalization. Joel is dedicated to reframing mental health distress as a potential spiritual marker and existential opportunity. He holds dual Master of Science degrees from University at Buffalo in Rehabilitation Counseling and Biomedical Sciences with a concentration in Epidemiology.   

Henry Cretella, M.D. studied and practiced Tibetan Buddhism for several years along with training in martial arts.  He then immersed himself in the more universal Sufism of Inayat Khan, an Indian mystic, for close to twenty years. He functioned as a senior teacher in the Inayati Order and the Sufi Healing Order before pursuing  his independent practice and study of mysticism. He now integrates what he has learned and experienced over these many years. He graduated from Vanderbilt Medical School and completed his psychiatric training at Strong Memorial Hospital of the University of Rochester in Rochester, NY.  His professional career spanned over 40 years as a general and child and adolescent psychiatrist and included teaching, administration, clinical practice and consultation in the greater Rochester and western NY areas.  This, along with his spiritual and especially mystical interests lead him to certification as a mind body practitioner through the Center for Mind Body Medicine and Dr. James Gordon.  He retired several years ago from active psychiatric practice, but continues to incorporate what he has learned into his spiritual practices and offerings.

On February 7th, 2023, Chris Meek interviewed Joel for the podcast Next Steps Forward, and explored:

Next Steps Forward is a podcast hosted by Chris Meek, the Mission Statement of the podcast:

Personal empowerment, commitment to our own well-being and the motivation to achieve more than we ever thought possible are the ingredients of a better life. And, they’re all within our reach. Next Steps Forward with Chris Meek delves into each aspect of the three keys that add energy, excitement, direction and purpose to everything that we do. Each week, Chris hosts leaders from the worlds of business, sports, entertainment, medicine, politics and public policy as they engage in thought-provoking discussions to help us all take the next step forward on our own journeys to our better selves and greater service to others.  

Biography 

Co-founder, Chairman, and CEO of SoldierStrong, Chris Meek has been recognized for his philanthropy with the President’s Call to Service Award, March of Dimes Franklin Delano Roosevelt Outstanding Corporate Citizen Award, Syracuse University’s Orange Circle Award, the ACT-IAC “Game Changer” Award, and was named a “Face of Philanthropy” by the Chronicle of Philanthropy. He discusses resiliency, empowerment, and leadership through adversity on his weekly podcast, “Next Steps Forward with Chris Meek,” via VoiceAmerica network’s Empowerment Channel. Next Steps Forward is his first book.

Joel David Lesses founded the Education Training Center as a means of counseling those marginalized by trauma, addiction and psychological distress, and its effects including incarceration, homelessness and institutionalization. He is dedicated to reframing mental health distress as a potential spiritual marker. Joel has lived in Nepal and Israel and is also a poet expressing the landscape of the mystical elements of our human beings. He believes world religion, poetry, spirituality, and meditation encompass the most vital aspects of our mind and life. The crux of his own personal journey are the questions and answers to his own koan or inquiry: “what is the matter with me?” revealing the individual and universal aspects of our inherent and potent creativity. Everything is flux, everything is poetry. His other passions include the intersection of poetry, spirituality, science, and phenomenology shared and disparate in the human experience, with the transformative power of self-inquiry and introspection through contemplative and meditative practices. Joel holds the belief that the fundamental transformation of individuals and our collective comes through barreling inward, relentlessly asking the questions, “Who am I?” or “What am I” or “What is the matter with me?” The latter being a question which after years of examination, shattered a false sense of self, the work of integration of that experience being an ongoing work in progress.

After a Sunday Brunch at Lisa Carley's friend Joel Lesses' house, on his Two Schmoes Sanctuary patio, Lisa and Sam had an ongoing conversation into the afternoon and evening where a suggestion was made to throw down a phone and record the discussion.

Topics of this conversation include travel (i.e., Ireland and India), philosophy, humanity's limitations and failures, and the desire to seek a 'hive-mind' for all people, constructively benefiting all members of our society and community.

Lisa and Sam explore how to dissect the makeup of human life and what drives this dialogue, this exploration.

Shifting to morals and ethics, are they relevant in our World, in our Life?

If so, 'How?!,' 'Why?!'

A framework of understanding brought the notion that 'We only know the answers to the questions we are asking,' so the question becomes, 'are we asking the right questions?'

Sam feels that while drawn to the mystical, he also holds himself back from it, because the mystical can be taken too far.

All Scientist began as philosophers.

All Physical Science began out of Philosophy.

Is openness or an open mind a sign of brillance.

Is there always a causal relationship in human behavior, a reason for it?

Discussion turned to the book Sapiens, and the documentary Unknown: The Cave of Bones.

'There are some questions we will never know the answers to.'

The phone recording ended without Sam or Lisa knowing it and Agnostic Explorations of The Miracle of Consciousness and Hope winds down an evening of conversation special and sanctified.

Biography:

Sam Zito is a serious student of philosophy and life, although he describes himself as just beginning the journey into it. Sam lives in Buffalo, New York and has had a range of life experience. He currently studies at Arizona State University, Philosophy, plays chess, has two daughters, and ponders often life's mysteries and wonders.

In today’s The Labyrinth podcast, retired psychiatrist Henry Cretella joins us to share both his philosophy and personal experience with surrender. We begin our conversation with Eckart Tolle’s view that surrender requires an expansion (and often suspension) of our rational mind. From there, we discuss the general nature of surrender and the role of intuition. We move into sharing stories about times when we felt a deep intuition/calling to stretch the boundaries of our limited rational frameworks and take a leap. The podcast ends with Hazrat Inayat Khan's essay on the future of humankind.

Biography

Henry Cretella, M.D., graduated from Vanderbilt Medical School and completed his psychiatric training at Strong Memorial Hospital of the University of Rochester in Rochester, NY.  His professional career spanned over 40 years as a general and child and adolescent psychiatrist and included teaching, administration, clinical practice and consultation in the greater Rochester and western NY areas.  This, along with his spiritual and especially mystical interests lead him to certification as a mind body practitioner through the Center for Mind Body Medicine and Dr. James Gordon.  He retired several years ago from active psychiatric practice, but continues to incorporate what he has learned into his spiritual practices and offerings.

Henry studied and practiced Tibetan Buddhism for several years along with training in martial arts.  He then immersed himself in the more universal Sufism of Inayat Khan, an Indian mystic, for close to twenty years. He functioned as a senior teacher in the Inayati Order and the Sufi Healing Order before pursuing  his independent practice and study of mysticism. He now integrates what he has learned and experienced over these many years.